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Next entry: A question and two videos Previous entry: Republicans should rethink this Ten Commandments thing

One word: “glands”

A bout of national stupidity isn't complete without Ross Douthat weighing in to support it, and so of course the recent "controversy" over whether or not hell exists* was like catnip to him.  Unsurprisingly, he insists that it does, and the reason is, "Because I want it to."  Douthat---all religious authoritarians, really---should realize that actually making the case for their beliefs in public does them no favors, because it just exposes them as fantasists and moral children.  I thought it might be fun to run down this argument in-depth for that reason, because Douthat has really revealed himself to be a foot-stomping toddler with sadistic control issues, as opposed to someone with a mind sharp enough to deserve a well-paid column at one of the world's largest newspapers.

In part, hell’s weakening grip on the religious imagination is a consequence of growing pluralism. Bell’s book begins with a provocative question: Are Christians required to believe that Gandhi is in hell for being Hindu? The mahatma is a distinctive case, but swap in “my Hindu/Jewish/Buddhist neighbor” for Gandhi, and you can see why many religious Americans find the idea of eternal punishment for wrong belief increasingly unpalatable.

When your argument starts with your unease at the possibility that humans could overlook our differences to see the value in their fellow humans, regardless of skin color or country of origin, you're off to a bad start. But Douthat being Douthat, he constructs his arguments by pretending to see progressive change as well-meaning before he moves in to denounce it, and so I think that's actually what he intended to do here.  He just failed by using loaded terms.  He does a little better on accepting that people exposed through their TVs to what hell on earth looks like---Haiti right after the earthquake, countries torn by genocide---might be easier to persuade that no loving god would do this to human beings for eternity.  His problem is that he treats this humane approach to others as soft-headed---like most misogynists, he tends to fall into the trap of thinking of kindness as "feminine" and logic as "masculine" and therefore believes both cannot coincide---but actually, the no-hell argument is more logical within Christian presumptions than the hell argument.  It is true that a god who would allow people to go to hell is evil, full stop.  You cannot believe god is good and would allow a hell.  In fact, the preacher Rob Bell who has kicked all this off has, from what I understand, approached this argument with this kind of internal logic.  I do understand why that's threatening, of course.  The fear is that if people start to see some contradictions in religion, they'll start asking even more questions and end up being atheists.  And that does happen, but it's also true that resolving some of the more troubling contradictions can create space for people to keep believing religion, which is clearly what Bell is gambling on.

Anyway, more Douthat.  After his usual "liberals are so cute with their silly caring about others!" crap, he moves in for the kill:

Atheists have license to scoff at damnation, but to believe in God and not in hell is ultimately to disbelieve in the reality of human choices.

Needless to say, it's actually Douthat who doesn't believe in human choices. He actually has spent a great deal of time and energy arguing that women especially shouldn't be allowed to have choices, especially over their bodies. 

If there’s no possibility of saying no to paradise then none of our no’s have any real meaning either. They’re like home runs or strikeouts in a children’s game where nobody’s keeping score.

Argument #1 for hell: There has to be a hell, or else how will Douthat know when it's all said and done that he wins?  This is incredibly telling logic, and I think goes straight to the heart of conservatism.  It even tells you why so many Republicans would destroy our nation's prosperity in order to create a wide gulf between the rich and everyone else.  It's more fun being rich if most people are picking through trash to eat!  It's like having a home run.  It's harder to tell you've "won" if your neighbor's house is smaller than yours but they still live a relatively comfortable, prosperous life.

In this sense, a doctrine of universal salvation turns out to be as deterministic as the more strident forms of scientific materialism. Instead of making us prisoners of our glands and genes, it makes us prisoners of God himself. We can check out any time we want, but we can never really leave.

I want to point out that in his eagerness to quote The Eagles, Douthat actually constructs heaven as a prison that people are desperately trying to escape.  In this case, through fucking.  Which is the critical point of this paragraph.  Douthat is saying there has to be a hell because otherwise we let our "glands" make decisions.  You know he couldn't get through this without indulging his sex obsession.  At the end of the day, he needs there to be a hell because otherwise where is god going to put all the dirty girls?  They have to be punished!  They had sexual pleasure and didn't pay for it!  They must pay.

The doctrine of hell, by contrast, assumes that our choices are real, and, indeed, that we are the choices that we make. The miser can become his greed, the murderer can lose himself inside his violence, and their freedom to turn and be forgiven is inseparable from their freedom not to do so.

So, as usual, the argument comes down to, "We have to pretend there's a hell in order to create fear in people so we can control them."  And I don't use the word "pretend" to open up another argument about sincerity.  Sincerity is the least interesting aspect of this problem here.  What is more interesting is that the argument for hell is not that there's evidence for hell or that hell can be deduced through logic.  It's that we need to have this idea in order to get the results the believer wants.  To put it another way, you could replace the word "hell" with "a giant monster that eats people up in their bed because they show me up in arguments", and you'd get the same result.  Let's not talk about if it actually exists.  Let's just say that the amount of control that it gives you over others is reason enough to pretend it exists.

It's relevant, of course, to point out that Douthat is arguing something that is demonstrably untrue, which is that people who believe in hell behave better than people who don't.  Even Douthat doesn't believe this lie.  If he did, he wouldn't demand that there be legal restrictions to force women to comply with his religious dogma on sexuality.  If he actually believed that there was a heaven and hell that made life choices meaningful, he wouldn't want the law stepping in to take those life choices away in cases where allowing people those choices improves life in the here and now.  He doesn't actually think choice is meaningful; he wants to deprive people of it.**  Anyway, by the logic of this essay, atheists are bad people who lie, cheat, and murder all the time.  He has no evidence of this.  I would happily go toe-to-toe with Douthat in a contest of who's a more moral person between my atheist ass and his god-fearing ass, though of course, who wins depends on important moral questions over whether or not it's moral to believe women are people or that torturing people for eternity for having unauthorized orgasms is wrong.***

If there’s a modern-day analogue to the “Inferno,” a work of art that illustrates the humanist case for hell, it’s David Chase’s “The Sopranos.” The HBO hit is a portrait of damnation freely chosen: Chase made audiences love Tony Soprano, and then made us watch as the mob boss traveled so deep into iniquity — refusing every opportunity to turn back — that it was hard to imagine him ever coming out. “The Sopranos” never suggested that Tony was beyond forgiveness. But, by the end, it suggested that he was beyond ever genuinely asking for it.

Argument #2 for hell: Some fictional works use the symbolism of it in emotionally compelling ways.  Really good symbols should always be taken literally, which is why Douthat also is forced to believe that humanity can only be saved from the vampires by a teenage girl in California, that you really can get lost for a decade trying to get back from Troy to Greece, and that strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is an excellent basis for government.

Is Gandhi in hell? It’s a question that should puncture religious chauvinism and unsettle fundamentalists of every stripe. But there’s a question that should be asked in turn: Is Tony Soprano really in heaven? 

In sum, a moral midget like Ross Douthat is happy to cast a national hero into hell in order to make sure that his enjoyment of HBO dramas isn't impeded by uncomfortable doubts that there's a tyrannical Sky Fairy that agrees with Douthat's irrational concern that other people enjoy their sexytimes too much.  Got it.

*No.

**I'm restricting my arguments to his advocacy of laws that would, as he's admitted in the past, be detrimental to peace and prosperity in the here and now.  Douthat has conceded, though he occasionally takes it back, that allowing women control over their bodies improves their marriages, their economic prospects, and the stability of society.  But he thinks they shouldn't have that choice anyway, because god and stuff.  Clearly, laws against murder and theft are justifiable even if you believe in hell, just because the effects are immediately negative.

***Yes and yes.

------

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:05 AM • (124) Comments

I’m not sure I agree with the statement that “a god who would allow people to go to hell is evil, full stop.” What about Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler? If we accept for the sake of argument that there is an afterlife, giving genocidal maniacs a free pass just doesn’t seem right. On the other hand, eternity is a heck of a long time. Maybe a better solution (again, pretending for the moment that there are a god and an afterlife) would be a sort of temporary hell where you experience all the harm you’ve inflicted on others, but get out once you feel genuine remorse. So Ted Bundy would experience getting murdered a bunch of times, but, if he ever made the connection that what he had done was wrong, eventually given some form of reprieve. Another system would be, you suffer until your victims decide you’ve had enough. Sending people to hell for not worshiping right, or for having unsanctioned sex, would of course be right out.

Comment #1: DataSnake  on  04/25  at  10:35 AM

For someone like Douthat, who styles himself an intellectual steeped in Catholic thinking, his arguments are impressively unsophisticated and simplistic on this matter. But I have more expertise to address this howler:

“The Sopranos” never suggested that Tony was beyond forgiveness. But, by the end, it suggested that he was beyond ever genuinely asking for it.

Chase offers a much darker, more cynical view of humanity, actually: that no one ever really changes, and that the characters are pretty much on an unmoveable trajectory to self-destruction. You DoD see Tony Soprano travel deep into iniquity without turning back, but in the moral universe of the Sopranos, it was impossible to turn back, even if you tried. At best one could argue that there is some kind of almost Calvinistic worldview at work here where that characters are unable to help themselves without divine intervention, but the show lacks any counterexamples of anyone redeeming themselves. The choices available to the audience are only to lament the characters’ self destructive nature or to take pleasure in knowing that whatever they might try to do, ultimately, since they’re “bad people,” they will do bad things and get their comeuppance.

Comment #2: Tyro  on  04/25  at  10:42 AM

“Another system would be, you suffer until your victims decide you’ve had enough.”

People are insanely vengeful, this wouldn’t go very well.

This is difficult to think about just as real-world justice is. I’m not sure I really agree with the concept of “punishment” in and of itself, just reparations/learning not to be an asshole. Causing suffering out of spite/anger has never seemed worthwhile to me unless it caused one of those two things (or deterred others from crime). Even if I don’t feel particularly sorry for people getting punished if they behaved like complete monsters.

Comment #3: Treefinger  on  04/25  at  10:45 AM

Comment #1: DataSnake

A god that created everything knowing created people who would be evil, and thus is moral agent responsible for the actions of those people. A god that blames and punishes its creations is ducking its responsibilities as a creator and is evil.

Comment #4: R.T.  on  04/25  at  10:46 AM

Rob Bell points to the three specific mentions of hell in all of the Bible as part of the reason why he doesn’t believe in hell. If it’s so goddamned important, why is it mentioned only three times? The same can be said for Jesus’ lack of concern about abortion and homosexuality which he never talks about.

Douthat and other conservatives who have taken to the internet to denounce Bell never quote Matthew 25 to argue against him. That’s the place where Jesus alludes to hell by casting greedy, selfish bastards away from him because they ignored the poor, the sick and the needy. Since that doesn’t fit in with conservative “values”, they can’t use it to bolster up their argument that there is a hell.

Comment #5: serious bette  on  04/25  at  10:54 AM

@R.T.:only if we discount the idea of free will, and also assume that God is omniscient. If we allow for free will, that means it is possible for people to choose to do terrible things. If we consider the possibility of a non-omniscient creator (more of a demigod), then it is possible for people to do things god couldn’t have foreseen. For that matter, what about a god whose ONLY power is control over the afterlife (remember, we are discussing the veracity of the statement that ANY god who allows people to go to hell is evil, not just the traditional Judeo-Christian God)? Would letting, say, the BTK killer go straight to heaven really be just?

Comment #6: DataSnake  on  04/25  at  10:56 AM

Who said in one of the hellthreads that this is all just badly-written fan-fiction was on to something.

Comment #7: norbizness  on  04/25  at  11:02 AM

But, by the end, it suggested that he was beyond ever genuinely asking for it.

No, Rossie, at the very end the series (and possibly Tony’s life) ended—cut to black, to nothing. No heaven, no hell, no afterlife at all, for the series or for the title characters.

But don’t stop believin’—moron.

Comment #8: Gracchus.  on  04/25  at  11:02 AM

It is true that a god who would allow people to go to hell is evil, full stop.  You cannot believe god is good and would allow a hell.

Nonsense.  If you’re going to concede that God and the heaven/hell paradigm are fictitious, you’re going to have to accept that you CAN in fact believe God is good while still allowing a hell.  The believer can come up with all sorts of rationales - a heaven can’t exist if you’re just going to mingle the sinners with the saints just like they’re mingling on earth, a just God must punish the transgressors at some point, people choose to reject God and hell just happens to be the place where God isn’t, etc, etc.

But this is an imaginary being committing imaginary acts in an imaginary place.  Ultimately, God’s capabilities and desires and morality are just the products of the collective Christian imagination.  Saying, “Oh but that’s impossible!” is pointless.  You might as well chide a 4-year-old for believing his imaginary friend drives a submarine to work or has a 40’ wingspan.

Douthat is playing at make-believe.  The only real argument you can throw at him is “Your speculation is pointless without even the thinnest of data sets”.  We can’t witness hell.  We can’t interact with it in our mortal forms.  Making claims about who goes there or doesn’t go there… it’s meaningless blargle.

Is Gandhi in heaven or hell?  Is he in the infinite Nirvana or reincarnated as a toadstool?  When Douthat dies, will he be cast into the firey bowels of the Inferno, or embraced by the FSM’s loving noodly appendages?  :-p It’s empty idle speculation, made by a man that refuses to admit he honestly doesn’t know.

Comment #9: Zifnab  on  04/25  at  11:02 AM

No Christian ever cites ‘going to hell’ as the reason that they’re a Christian.

Thus I always find those who rant about the certainty of its existence disturbing.

Because in real life, they’re the same people who’d object to a testimony where the individual’s main reason for converting to Christianity was a fear of going to hell.

And yes, it is correct that hell doesn’t appear much in the Bible.

You know what does? Poverty. That appears an awful lot (in contrast to homosexuality and abortion).

Comment #10: catandtonic  on  04/25  at  11:02 AM

Comment #6: DataSnake

Even counting “free will” a creator god made evil and gave people the ability to be so, and it seems to me that it couldn’t be much of a god if it weren’t omniscient. How could it judge people if it didn’t know everything?

For that matter, what about a god whose ONLY power is control over the afterlife (remember, we are discussing the veracity of the statement that ANY god who allows people to go to hell is evil, not just the traditional Judeo-Christian God)? Would letting, say, the BTK killer go straight to heaven really be just?

I’ve played the “what would I do if I where such a god” game as I’m very sick and likely to be dead in a couple years. I’ve concluded that the right thing to do is let everyone go to heaven. People have arisen from uncaring natural processes and do not possess free will, and are capable of being anyone depending on their situations. It makes little sense as a transcendent being to punish people for having traits or living in circumstances that would make or allow them to be evil.

Comment #11: R.T.  on  04/25  at  11:20 AM

You know, this kind of sectarian triumphalism is really in extremely bad taste.

Comment #12: Aaron  on  04/25  at  11:21 AM

. Maybe a better solution (again, pretending for the moment that there are a god and an afterlife) would be a sort of temporary hell where you experience all the harm you’ve inflicted on others, but get out once you feel genuine remorse.

Mormons, IIRC, believe something like this which is actually one of the more (only?) unique admirable beliefs their religion has.

Comment #13: Ben D.  on  04/25  at  11:22 AM

The real problem with heaven and hell is that 99% percent of humans are a mixed bag, with a complicated mixture of good and bad traits, and good and bad deeds in their lives.

Ex., should Thomas Jefferson go to heaven or hell? Yeah, good luck figuring that one out.

What about FDR? Again, good luck!

Comment #14: Ben D.  on  04/25  at  11:24 AM

Comment #12 R.T.:

Even counting “free will” a creator god made evil and gave people the ability to be so, and it seems to me that it couldn’t be much of a god if it weren’t omniscient. How could it judge people if it didn’t know everything?

What about a god who knows everything that has ALREADY happened, but can’t see the future? Perfectly capable of judging, but doesn’t know in advance what the creations will do.

People have arisen from uncaring natural processes and do not possess free will, and are capable of being anyone depending on their situations.

Here, I just flat out disagree. Your circumstances change which options are available to you, which you pick is still a matter of free will.

Comment #15: DataSnake  on  04/25  at  11:32 AM

For someone like Douthat, who styles himself an intellectual steeped in Catholic thinking, his arguments are impressively unsophisticated and simplistic on this matter.

Tyro, you are way too polite. Theologians have been talking about hell as being shut out of the divine presence, rather than actual physical torture, for the better part of 500 years. One of the classic passage of Paradise Losts is about exactly that. Dante, an author you would think Douthat might have heard of, wrote a whole huge fscking book in verse called “Purgatorio” about what happens to non-damned souls who don’t immediately qualify for heaven.

Treating this subject as new or even particularly controversial is illiteracy on a par with suddenly “discovering” that the constitution bars establishment of religion.

Oh, and one more thing: Douthat’s utter lack of empathy is made clear by his complaint that punishment isn’t real unless it’s eternal. As if spending, say, a million years in purgatory contemplating your sins would suddenly all disappear once you made it to the elect. Or, y’know, as if the results of centuries of discrimination all magically vanish once the law mandates equality.

Comment #16: paul  on  04/25  at  11:32 AM

What about Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler?

Douthat- or Evangelical-style Christianity doesn’t give a “satisfying” answer to this question either, because for them hell is not a place of punishment for the wicked, it’s a place of punishment for the unbeliever. We can’t know whether the monsters of history said the magic words (or in the case of Douthat’s beliefs, confessed their mortal sins to a priest) before their death. They might have died “in a state of grace” in which case they’d be taken to heaven regardless of their actions on earth. (The opposite of Gandhi, who, if he did not engage in the magic ritual, would be sent to hell regardless of his actions on earth.)

Comment #17: joxn  on  04/25  at  11:33 AM

Theologians have been talking about hell as being shut out of the divine presence, rather than actual physical torture, for the better part of 500 years.

A lot of our popular images of hell actually come from Islam, not Christianity. The Koran is much more, uh, we’ll say colorful than the Bible in how it treats hell.

Comment #18: Ben D.  on  04/25  at  11:35 AM

The irony is that Bell’s latest bout of reasoning is not new!  He’s really just rederiving Universalism from first principles, albeit 250 or so years later.  Hosea Ballou and the circuit-riding evangelicals who created the hell-free theology of the late 18th and early 19th century and spread it through the nascent agrarian nation are no doubt applauding this latest erosion of neo-Calvinism.

Comment #19: Ms Kate  on  04/25  at  11:36 AM

(The opposite of Gandhi, who, if he did not engage in the magic ritual, would be sent to hell regardless of his actions on earth.)

The best solution to this problem is one I’ve seen from Roman Catholics—they say there is no salvation “outside the Church” but humans can never comprehend what exactly “the Church” is. So, in God’s eyes, Ghandi could be in the “Church” as could moral pre-Christian pagans.

Comment #20: Ben D.  on  04/25  at  11:37 AM

The fact that this moral infant has a column in the NYT is infuriating. Considering that his arguments haven’t evolved much beyond what a 5th grade cellist in orchestra articulated to me when I first had this argument in the 4th grade (he was Mormon and named Lars), shows how Douthat’s general arrested development should disqualify him from the editorial page. Also, Douthat is ignorant in terms of his own religion’s position on damnation of the “anonymous Christian”—that is, someone of another religion who exemplifies “Christian” virtues and achieves saint-like status in the world. The theological position of the Catholic church in those instances (a lovely way to do-away with all the damning of non-Xians) is to attribute their inherent goodness to the interventionary work of God’s angels/saints/Mary through THEIR OWN RELIGIONS. Its called the doctrine of the anonymous christian, a christian who does not know it him/herself, but whose spiritual development within their religion was actually guided by “the real God.” Its PROFOUNDLY INSULTING and childish, but its how Catholics in particular get out of that uncomfortable position of damning everybody else. These fantasies…I’m not even going to start a rant about the basis of the elaborate and constructed fantasies that are the basis for so many people’s collective consciousness…Jesus, save us from your followers—what, as a good Jew you didn’t have this Heaven/Hell binary?

Comment #21: Thealogian  on  04/25  at  11:38 AM

DataSnake, let’s just say Hitler didn’t commit suicide but was captured.  We have, as a society, two choices of how to deal with him:

1) We torture him for the rest of days, day in and day out, with a rotating cast of guards who impose on him endlessly inventive cruelties.

2) We keep him in a jail cell, try him, and then try to execute his punishment in accord with international human rights laws.

I know what society I think is a better one.  So, why would I should I hold this god to a lower standard?

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/25  at  11:39 AM

I’m surprised that Douchehat didn’t cite that Weekly World News article where some mob boyo describes his near-death experience as being on a very long escallator down into an increasingly hot environment. 

Comment #23: Ms Kate  on  04/25  at  11:40 AM

gracchus - we’re going to BEAT THE FUCK OUT OF YOU…

Dennis, you’re making physical threats on the Internet again. You really have to take your meds. I know your parents say you’re ok now, and that Nostradamus and Depeche Mode whisper the same, but you’re really not. Please see your doctor.

Comment #24: Gracchus.  on  04/25  at  11:42 AM

Dante, an author you would think Douthat might have heard of, wrote a whole huge fscking book in verse called “Purgatorio” about what happens to non-damned souls who don’t immediately qualify for heaven.

For that matter, Limbo technically isn’t in Hell, and is where we’d probably find Ghandi—a place that matches a lot of contemporary ideas about heaven, but is only damned in that souls there are separated from God.  A place for saintly non-believers.

Comment #25: Jayn Newell  on  04/25  at  11:46 AM

I mean, I think disbelieving in hell is a good first step towards atheism, because you’re already starting to see the holes in religious arguments.  But it’s often the only step people take.

Comment #26: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/25  at  11:47 AM

Douthat’s pretty funny, but he’s also the very best argument against paying for access to the NYT’s website. 

Comment #27: Punditus Maximus  on  04/25  at  11:49 AM

I’m not sure I agree with the statement that “a god who would allow people to go to hell is evil, full stop.” What about Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler? If we accept for the sake of argument that there is an afterlife, giving genocidal maniacs a free pass just doesn’t seem right. On the other hand, eternity is a heck of a long time. Maybe a better solution (again, pretending for the moment that there are a god and an afterlife) would be a sort of temporary hell where you experience all the harm you’ve inflicted on others, but get out once you feel genuine remorse. So Ted Bundy would experience getting murdered a bunch of times, but, if he ever made the connection that what he had done was wrong, eventually given some form of reprieve. Another system would be, you suffer until your victims decide you’ve had enough. Sending people to hell for not worshiping right, or for having unsanctioned sex, would of course be right out.
Comment #1: DataSnake on 04/25 at 10:35 AM

How about when you die your consciousness is raised so you know what you did?  Then if what you did was wrong, you would naturally feel remorse for it.

That’s my imaginary afterlife.  Everyone knows everything, and can then transcend it into happiness or bliss or oneness with everything or whatever.

In reality, there is no pie in the sky when you die.  No carrot, no stick.  This is inconvenient for those who want us to withhold gratification now for that pie in the sky later.  They get the gratification now, because they know it’s BS.  Popes get gold clothing, serfs get beaten, but the last shall be first, blah blah fucking blah.

Comment #28: oldfeminist  on  04/25  at  11:49 AM

Another excellent deconstruction of a very sad little man.

Too bad the New York Times has seen fit to meet him by becoming a very sad little newspaper.

Comment #29: LittlePig  on  04/25  at  11:51 AM

Re: Ben D and Thealogian

Douthat apparently hasn’t even read C.S. Lewis.  The anonymous Christian was a major plot point in The Last Battle.

How is this guy even remotely considered an intellectual by anyone?

Comment #30: prufrock  on  04/25  at  11:58 AM

Okay - all you Pandagonians who thought Limbo would be a Most Excellent place to end up raise your hands! (raises hand).

In fact, if I ever started up a coffee house - particularly a basement one - I would call it the Limbo Cafe and hope people 1/10th as interesting as those consigned to Dante’s Limbo would show up!

Comment #31: Ms Kate  on  04/25  at  11:58 AM

@Amanda Marcotte:
Good point. I guess it comes down to how you define hell. If it’s endless, unceasing torture with no chance of release, then yes, it is definitely evil. A more temporary, fit-the-crime model, by contrast, might not be. For instance, Hitler could experience what life was like in a concentration camp until he understood that inflicting this suffering on others was wrong and felt genuine remorse, at which point he would be ready to move on.

Comment #32: DataSnake  on  04/25  at  11:59 AM

I have a couple of thoughts.  First, Douthat gets his own religion wrong.  Catholicism is a little stricter about “works” than most Protestant denominations, but I’m pretty sure they still believe that getting into Heaven is based on “grace”.  So you can commit genocide, but if you say the magic words and ask for forgiveness, you’ll get your ticket to Heaven.  So the existence of Hell really shouldn’t affect the behavior of Christians, because your behavior isn’t what determines where you go in the end.

Second, I’ll reiterate that conservatives have a fundamental misunderstanding of what motivates human behavior.  Threat of punishment is not very effective, especially if the person thinks they can get away with it (see my first point).  I doubt that there has been a time in his life when Douthat was tempted to commit murder, but decided against it because he feared the punishment (whether jail or Hell).  The truth is that the vast majority of people could never commit murder even if there was absolutely no punishment.  I know I’ve brought this up before, but it’s still relevant.  That’s not to say that punishment is useless, but if his goal is to control behavior, threat of Hell won’t get him very far.

Comment #33: bananacat  on  04/25  at  12:00 PM

[quoteFor instance, Hitler could experience what life was like in a concentration camp until he understood that inflicting this suffering on others was wrong and felt genuine remorse, at which point he would be ready to move on.

Or he could pull a Cartman, see it’s wrong but completely miss how this is the same as the Holocaust.

Comment #34: Jayn Newell  on  04/25  at  12:02 PM

The fact that this moral infant has a column in the NYT is infuriating.

For some reason, the NYT feels obliged to make room for one conservative who’s an obvious gibbering idiot and ignoramus on its roster of columnists. Eventually Ross’ll go the way of Bill Kristol, the giggling fool he replaced in that slot, and John Tierney, who’s been exiled to a blog where he can promote his fantasy view of economics in obscurity. The position, however, will live on.

Bo-Bo Brooksie holds the “reasonable-sounding moderate who’s really a weasel conservative” slot. Mo-Do continues to own the “ditz who should really be writing in the Style section” position. All filler that regularly insults the intelligence of the Times’ desired demographic. Yet I’ll wager that some of the MBAs in the executive suite still wonder why Times Select was a failure.

Comment #35: Gracchus.  on  04/25  at  12:03 PM

@Gracchus—

There’s actually one Times columnist I hate more than any of them—Thomas Friedman.

From his glibness about globalization to his wargasm over Iraq to calling the Chinese Communist Party “reasonably enlightened”(!!!!) he’s just awful.  I get the feeling if this were the 1932s he’d be telling us all about the “wonders” of Italian Fascism.

Comment #36: Ben D.  on  04/25  at  12:05 PM

Has anyone here ever had an hours long discussion of religion with a person who not only is spiritually invested, but unfortunately, financially invested in the belief?

I sat next to a X-ian book publisher on a plane trip to Puerto Rico a few years back. It seems that the whole point of fundamentalist Christianity is to reinterpret and rewrite the bible to bend to their own whims.

I dated a born-again person in college. I pointed out to the publisher the black-white statement (Christians hate gray areas) that your ticket into heaven is your belief that Christ died for your sins and is your savior. Good works are rags in the eyes of God. There is one law, and that’s all that matters. Help old ladies cross the street, take in stray cats, but you will be judged by one law, and one law alone.

On this, the publisher agreed.

I then asked, hypothetically, what if, in the moments before he was executed, John Wayne Gacy had an epiphony, gave himself over to Christ, and unconditionally accepted him as his savior. Would John Gacy be “saved”?

She thought on this a bit, and replied that, although it’s unlikely, if Gacy had such an epiphony, he would be saved.

I advanced the argument to include the prospect that the publisher would then be hand in hand with Gacy for eternity singing Kumbaya in praise to the lord, together, brother and sister servants of Christ.

She then said, “Well, not actually,” and proceeded to explain some bullshit “layers of salvation” that somebody pretended some “original Hebrew” translates to (the early books of the bible would be in Greek. Israel was part of Alexander’s empire, and the Hebrews that remained were well-assimilated at the time the Torah was actually written down). She could not accept that by her religion’s own rules, there is no sin, there is no good, there is one rule. Believe in me, and ye shall be saved. But she published books on that.

There is no logic, and there is no set of rules to Christianity, anymore. It is being reinterpreted and made up as they go along. That’s how a culture that did not recognize a born baby as an actual human until it survived 30 days got their rules twisted into abortion being murder. That’s how murdering abortion doctors became okay. It’s all being made up as they go along.

And Ross Douthat can say anything he wants.

Comment #37: I Heart Puppies  on  04/25  at  12:14 PM

Sorry, should read “were the 1920s”.

Comment #38: Ben D.  on  04/25  at  12:14 PM

There’s actually one Times columnist I hate more than any of them—Thomas Friedman.

How could I forget? Not only does he fill the “blind worship and affirmation of neo-liberal globalisation” slot (which is, admittedly, more in line with the mission and desired audience of the NYT), but he’s a wretched writer. I know he’s a best-selling author, but I’m not sure how anyone can hack their way through his jungle of mixed metaphors and tired cliches.

Comment #39: Gracchus.  on  04/25  at  12:16 PM

If there is a hell, it’s full of blithering lunatics like Markuze.

Comment #40: Sour Kraut  on  04/25  at  12:25 PM

Ben D. @36, it’s kind of like the FDR/Thomas Jefferson point upthread.  Tom Friedman gets one small cookie from me for advocating (repetitively, tediously) a per-gallon tax on gasoline.  His badness is more dangerous than Douthat’s badness because the people who run the world care more about ramping up a war than changing access to abortion, but Douthat is always worthless and wrong whereas Friedman is so only about 92% of the time.

Comment #41: Unree  on  04/25  at  12:29 PM

@Unree 41

I’m sorry, but being an apologist for the current government of mainland China, and even saying that our government should be more authoritarian, just takes the cake for me personally. There’s one type of person I cannot stand for even one second—the bootlickers who go on about how “authoritarians make the trains run on time! We need a Leader who can get things done, damnit!” Of course YMMV.

And while I think that being “anti-globalization” is about as useful as being “anti-industrial revolution”, Friedman is irritating because he’s so glib about it. He pretends that it’s not going to hurt an awful lot of people in the short term, which it will, just like the enclosure movement or industrialization.

Comment #42: Ben D.  on  04/25  at  12:36 PM

The only time I’m tempted to believe in Hell is when one of the concept’s corrupt and hateful shills like Jerry Falwell kicks the bucket. I have complete confidence that Ross Douthat will reach Falwell levels of evil as he ages.

Also, no discussion about Hell is complete without reference to <a href =“http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&feature=related&hl=iw&v=91DSNL1BEeY”>this Rowan Atkinson bit</a>.

Comment #43: Gracchus.  on  04/25  at  12:42 PM

serious bette is correct—at the Last Judgment the Don Blankenships of the world will be cast into the eternal fire. In fact, comparing party platforms, only Democrats have a chance of eternal life, per Matthew 25, as the Republicans carry out their plan to do it to the least of their brethren just as hard as they can.

But, as attractive as the idea may sound, the likelihood of say, John Boehner’s, writhing in eternal torment doesn’t help his victims today.

Comment #44: Hector B.  on  04/25  at  12:47 PM

Oh yeah, @42, Friedman really is that awful.  He also enjoys the Marty Peretz rich wife card that sustains untalented gentlemen who want to be pundits.  I’d like to airdrop him sans wallet into Dakar or Jakarta or Kiev—hell, even into north Minneapolis, his sort of home town—to see how he fares.

Comment #45: Unree  on  04/25  at  12:48 PM

DataSnake, even if there was a limited amount of torturing in prisons, I wouldn’t support it. That said, the notion that you could force Hitler to “get” it is an argument that requires a very shallow understanding of what drives people to be evil.  He’s not just a naughty child who needs to be spanked for biting his sister.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/25  at  12:48 PM

“I guess it comes down to how you define hell. If it’s endless, unceasing torture with no chance of release, then yes, it is definitely evil. A more temporary, fit-the-crime model, by contrast, might not be. For instance, Hitler could experience what life was like in a concentration camp until he understood that inflicting this suffering on others was wrong and felt genuine remorse, at which point he would be ready to move on.”

First off, most people who have a burning desire (pun intended) for a good, old-fashioned, fiery, sulfurous, teeming-with-pitchfork-equipped-demons, Hell — a place of endless (but righteous) torment — aren’t going to be satisfied with a wimpy “fit-the-crime” version.  They are the highly legalistic and judgmental types who think there is a blazingly-white Good and a dark-as-a-cave-at-night Black and make no allowance for any shades of gray.  (This was what I was taught as a young Christian fundamentalist.)

If you were an example of Christian virtue for your whole life but you made one little mistake (failed to dot your i’s and cross your t’s when writing the last check you gave for tithe, or something equally ludicrous), then you need to receive the full measure of suffering just like Adolf Hitler, Ted Bundy, Mahatma Ghandi, and (some day) Barack Obama.  Otherwise the threat of Hell is toothless.

Second, the same fervent believers in traditional Hell “understand” that the whole point of Hell is there is no escape and the torment lasts forever.  You can never atone for your sins, no matter how big or small, no matter how long you are made to suffer as punishment.  They admit no possibility of “feeling genuine remorse” affecting the severity and the length of your punishment.  You had your chance to be Good when you were alive, but you blew it so you’ll suffer for eternity.

John K. Galbraith said: “The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”

I would say of Douchehat (as well as traditional political conservatives):  They are engaged in another of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for feeling holier-than-thou…

Comment #47: MikeEss  on  04/25  at  12:49 PM

I’d like to airdrop him sans wallet into Dakar or Jakarta or Kiev—hell, even into north Minneapolis, his sort of home town—to see how he fares.

“Fares” is the operative word. You know how it is with ol’ Tom: he’ll just find a friendly cab driver (they’re everywhere he goes!), offer to quote him in his next book and send him $2000 once Tom returns to his mansion and checks under the sofa cushions, and all will be well.

Anyone who thinks that Sinclair Lewis’s Babbitt is an unrealistic exaggeration is unfamiliar with Tom Friedman.

Comment #48: Gracchus.  on  04/25  at  12:56 PM

If we accept for the sake of argument that there is an afterlife

We (ok, *I*) don’t.  I don’t accept a false premis as a place to begin a discussion.  Once a person begins using false authority to claim something I will end the discussion until they prove Russell’s teapot exists.

Amanda is esentially asking that if Douthat is going to pull crap out of his ass and tell us it’s the truth, then he at least solve Epicurus’ Paradox.

Comment #49: cynickal  on  04/25  at  12:56 PM

About half of Douthat’s columns are about the Scientific Accuracy of the Roman Catholic Religion.  I sometimes wonder why the Times’ editorial board think their readership are interested in that so much.

Comment #50: RobNYNY1957  on  04/25  at  01:01 PM

Would letting, say, the BTK killer go straight to heaven really be just?

Comment #6: DataSnake

Bernard of Clairvaux was sainted for causing the death of tens of thousands during the second crusade.

Comment #51: cynickal  on  04/25  at  01:07 PM

What about Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler?

Douthat- or Evangelical-style Christianity doesn’t give a “satisfying” answer to this question either, because for them hell is not a place of punishment for the wicked, it’s a place of punishment for the unbeliever.

I hate to be that guy<sup>1</sup>, but it isn’t just ‘them’. The bible makes that point over and over and over. And yes, I mean the supposedly-hippie-love new Testament. Again and again the point is rammed home that failing to believe Jesus is the savior is a one way ticket to an eternity of suffering and pain. Evangelicals are actually keeping their version of the death cult much, much realer than liberals<sup>2</sup> who ignore the horrendous, immoral parts of that wicked book.

The Christian afterlife is nothing but a revenge fantasy, period - and sorry Liberal Christians, but it’s in your holy book again and again. You must at least admit it.

And also, too, any supreme being that would create a place of eternal punishment for crimes committed during an extremely short mortal life is not ‘good’, never mind one that would create such a place and populate it with people whose crime was failing to suck that beings asshole to their satisfaction.

1) note: I do not hate being that guy.
2) note: I think Liberal Christians’ hearts are in the right place. I just wish they’d stop pretending they aren’t ignoring entire swaths of their religion wholesale.

Comment #52: Ross Lincoln  on  04/25  at  01:09 PM

  If we accept for the sake of argument that there is an afterlife

We (ok, *I*) don’t.  I don’t accept a false premis as a place to begin a discussion.  Once a person begins using false authority to claim something I will end the discussion until they prove Russell’s teapot exists.

Well, sure, if you don’t have a shared base of assumptions, you can never argue about anything. Everybody is exactly correct in their own frame of reference.

I find it more satisfying to point out, “And yes, by your own rulebook, you’re going to burn in hell for all eternity.”

Comment #53: Hector B.  on  04/25  at  01:10 PM

I’m just seriously boggled that he compares Gandhi—a demonstrably real human being—to Tony Soprano, a fictitious creation that you can arguably debate jumped his original shark/purpose/story arc when HBO continued to offer Chase bieberillions of money to add more seasons.

Of course, it’s Catholic apologetics that answers “Is Gandhi in hell?” with a question, but the reply question, about a fictitious creation that never lived is unbelievable weak.  Jesuits would rap his knuckles for that.

I suppose when talking about a fictitious place, Hell, fictitious creatures jump to mind, but then why the Gandhi in the first place?

Just…I boggle at his idiocy and his position at the Times.

Comment #54: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  04/25  at  01:15 PM

“To believe in God and not in hell is ultimately to disbelieve in the reality of human choices. If there’s no possibility of saying no to paradise then none of our no’s have any real meaning either….”

Wow, Mr. Douthat just lobed a huge insult at Judaism. Judaism has happily existed with a long list of dos and don’ts, the ol’ famous emphasis on the one and only g-d, and no real belief in hell. 

My ilk of Judaism and atheists have this in common: the choice itself has meaning. Each choice, each day, adds up to the person you are and the person you are striving to be.  How is it necessary to believe in hell to believe in either g-d or free choice?  Doesn’t make sense.

Comment #55: Mea  on  04/25  at  01:16 PM

@Mea,

Ross is a very sad boy.  He doesn’t believe his life has any meaning unless he goes to Heaven or Hell.  What’s worse, is he doesn’t believe ANYONE’S life has any meaning unless s/he goes to Heaven or Hell.

Living here?  Interacting with one another?  Making each other’s lives better?  Torturing and enslavement?  Completely meaningless unless God is keeping score.

Ross Douthat is a very scary sociopath.

Comment #56: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  04/25  at  01:20 PM

I think Liberal Christians’ hearts are in the right place. I just wish they’d stop pretending they aren’t ignoring entire swaths of their religion wholesale.

Hahahahaha. As if it were the liberal Christians who leave stuff out.

What one has to do to gain eternal life, beyond having faith in God:

Give all that one has to the poor. Mark Chapter 10
Love your neighbor as yourself, as demonstrated by the despised Samaritan who looked after the earthly needs of the beaten and robbed Jew, who was ignored by Pharisees and Levites. Luke Chapter 10
Make yourself eligible for the right side of the Beatitudes, e.g.: Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God; but woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. Luke Chapter 6
And of course, follow the commands in Matthew Chapter 25.

Comment #57: Hector B.  on  04/25  at  01:32 PM

What about Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler?

What about them? Would it completely destroy your world if these Big Three weren’t in fact being tortured for all eternity for their crimes against humanity? What if the concept of the “cleansing fire” is more accurate, and that all people, no matter how good or bad other people and history esteemed them, would spend some period of time being burned of their sins before going to paradise? Apart from the giggles I get equating sin with bourbon and the more you have on you, the longer you burn, doesn’t this seem a more just way of managing human transgressions that took place over a limited period of time (life) over the rest of eternity?

The very concept of Hell is such a brutal, vicious, nasty thing that it must be a human invention. First of all, it conflates the conscious with the soul. If there is anything everlasting and enduring about the human that would exist beyond the body, it can’t really require the body to be there. Pain, hunger, thirst, heat, cold, unpleasant smells, these all require a brain and nerve endings to process. The idea that there is a pit of fire and sulfur where some asshole with a pitchfork spends eternity torturing you presupposes that you have the facilities to feel these things. But we are captives of our brains, we can’t fathom anything that is not a perception, that we can’t experience and quantify. So we’ve come up with this truly medieval torture chamber to put people we don’t like in for the rest of eternity because it makes us feel better.

Comment #58: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/25  at  01:36 PM

Catholic definition of hell:  people who have committed mortal sins go there.  From my long-ago memorization of the Baltimore Catechism, for a sin to be mortal, you must:
1. Do something seriously wrong.
2. Know that it’s seriously wrong.
3. Decide to go ahead and do it anyway.

So most acts by most ordinary mortals, like unauthorized fucking by people who don’t think it’s wrong, don’t count as a mortal sin, so can’t send you to hell, according to Catholic doctrine.  Purgatory is the place for minor sins - temporary punishment before entering eternal reward.  And Limbo was the place for good non-believers, although I think that idea has been withdrawn since I left the church. 
My personal view is, that if there’s an afterlife, I’d like people to be able to understand the wrongs they’ve done others and stay there until they repent and feel what they’ve done.  It would be a most unpleasant place, full of Republicans saying they never did that.  But eternal justice is probably not happening.  At least they don’t get to take their stuff with them.

Comment #59: gretchen  on  04/25  at  01:39 PM

Any God that would create (the Christian concept of) Hell is an inhuman monster, full stop.

Someone already mentionned Hitler. Hitler killed 6 million Jews. If we somehow invented a way for Hitler to live through 6 million full human lives worth of agony for his crimes, he’d STILL have eternity worth of torture left after that was done. If he had to live through the lives of all the descendants of the people he eliminated, he still would have eternity left to suffer through when it was done.

There is no crime in the entirety of human history that is deserving of the Christian hell. None. If the Evangelical God existed, he’d not only be as bad as Hitler, he’d be infinitely worse than Hitler. Omnimalevolent would be the appropriate term.

Comment #60: BlackBloc  on  04/25  at  01:42 PM

The Christian Afterlife is way more than a revenge fantasy, Ross - it is also a mechanism of social control that is designed to prevent people from daring to ask questions or buck authority.

Comment #61: Ms Kate  on  04/25  at  01:45 PM

I find it more satisfying to point out, “And yes, by your own rulebook, you’re going to burn in hell for all eternity.”

Comment #53: Hector B.

I find it more satisfying to tell them to leave me the F*** alone.

I even point out that punching them in the nose is against man’s law, not “god’s”.

Pointing out that their beliefs are stupid and shallow is on;y going to make those that want to “argue” with me either double down on the stupid and/or shallow or run off to be reaffirmed by their friends and family that their make-believe daddy in the sky will smite me for not playing along with their nonsense.
I also yell at kids to git offa mah lawn.

Comment #62: cynickal  on  04/25  at  01:50 PM

To Douthat, Gandhi and Soprano have equal amounts of humanity.  That is, neither of them exist or existed as human beings.

Comment #63: Punditus Maximus  on  04/25  at  01:55 PM

Pointing out that their beliefs are stupid and shallow is on;y going to make those that want to “argue” with me either double down on the stupid and/or shallow

If self-professed Christians really understood they were obligated to take care of their fellow man, and that piling up material goods would serve only to keep them from eternal life, I think the world would be a better place.

WWJD? What would Jesus drive? Not an Escalade or Expedition, to be sure.

Comment #64: Hector B.  on  04/25  at  01:58 PM

We do know that Jesus would probably carpool in a Honda. 

“The Apostles were in one Accord.” - Acts 5:12

Comment #65: Ms Kate  on  04/25  at  02:09 PM

if there’s a hell below (and I certainly don’t believe there is, but just for sake of argument), surely every Pope ever is in it.

Comment #66: timotimo  on  04/25  at  02:20 PM

I’m glad (maybe?) that Amanda took the time to deconstruct DoucHat’s shallow excuse for moral positioning.  Personally I can’t get that far.  I get caught up in trying to deconstruct the tangle of psuedo-philosophy and grammatical spaghetti-bowls that the bastard thinks sounds so intelligent.  But really what it ends up looking like is that he’s trying to arrange a flight from Point A to Point L7e2sA of Glaxxon 14 of the Inner Dimension, because the coupons make it sound like a really great deal.

For instance, what I read from this sentence:

Atheists have license to scoff at damnation, but to believe in God and not in hell is ultimately to disbelieve in the reality of human choices.

is “You are human and have choices.  You can choose not to believe in God.  But God is real (I said so), so your choice means you’re no longer qualified to breathe in my airspace.”  Amanda pointed out, rightly, that the next sentence in this chain of (bad) logic is “Ergo, I win, because.  Thbbbbt.”  I didn’t get that far.  My brain was too busy trying to make an escape attempt through my frontal sinuses.

Comment #67: Caelan Aegana  on  04/25  at  02:35 PM

Catholic definition of hell:  people who have committed mortal sins go there.  From my long-ago memorization of the Baltimore Catechism, for a sin to be mortal, you must:
1. Do something seriously wrong.
2. Know that it’s seriously wrong.
3. Decide to go ahead and do it anyway.

Then wouldn’t we “save” more people by never letting them know what is seriously wrong?  That seems like a loophole big enough to drive a Hummer through.  Basically, every time you tell someone that murder is wrong, you’re increasing their chance of going to Hell.

Comment #68: bananacat  on  04/25  at  02:35 PM

Whoops, last paragraph should read “You can choose not to believe in Hell, but Hell is real.

Comment #69: Caelan Aegana  on  04/25  at  02:37 PM

Ross just wants to avoid his own personal hell… seventy-two highly experienced chunky Reese Witherspoons in pajamas.

Comment #70: BrianX  on  04/25  at  02:38 PM

</blockquote>We do know that Jesus would probably carpool in a Honda. 

“The Apostles were in one Accord.” - Acts 5:12</blockquote>

So that would be what, the Saintly Clown Car?

Comment #71: Caelan Aegana  on  04/25  at  02:40 PM

@BrianX, thank you.  The fundamental truth of Ross Douthat is that he’s a creepy dude with a fertility fetish that believes that the country should be run in order to make him feel more okay with it.

The sad truth is, he could just feel okay with it.

Comment #72: Punditus Maximus  on  04/25  at  02:43 PM

Needless to say, it’s actually Douthat who doesn’t believe in human choices.

No, actually it’s really, really needed! Over and over again. Shouted from rooftops, and stuff. Of course you know that since you wrote the post and all. Paradoxical and fascinating.

Comment #73: Dan Watson  on  04/25  at  02:47 PM

Episcopal Hell:  red wine with fish.

Comment #74: MTS  on  04/25  at  02:48 PM

What about Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler?

what about them? Suppose, for a second, God said “you must endure the hardships of everyone you have caused to suffer” and so they spend millions of years reliving the lives of their victims, and knowing each of their pain in a personal way. And then god says “Now, you will do it twice more. You will receive three times what yo have inflicted.”

okay, cool. I’m not really punitively minded, but that could be construed as fair

but eventually, you get to a point where they have completed that cycle once for every person they bear responsibility for the death of. and then it still keeps going. and any god that thinks anyone deserves that is a monster.

Eternity is big. Really big. that’s the problem with the idea of hell.

Comment #75: karpad  on  04/25  at  02:49 PM

We also know that God the Father like a different make and model:

The actual section of the Bible that tells us the Lord did indeed drive a Plymouth Fury is Jeremiah, chapter 32. Verse 37 reads “Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my Fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:” This passage leaves no doubt that the Lord did in fact drive a Fury.

Comment #76: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/25  at  02:49 PM

WWJD? What would Jesus drive? Not an Escalade or Expedition, to be sure.

Comment #64: Hector B.

I heard a rumor that the (now out of business)  Corbin Sparrow was built by a family that took the whole “Good Stewards of the Earth” seriously.

But that’s a minority, while the most vocal are asshats like Douthat who just want to steal arguments from authority as their own.

At least when Plato did it, he could assemble an argument.

Comment #77: cynickal  on  04/25  at  02:52 PM

Thanks, Ms Kate @25. Coffee came out my nose.

Comment #78: Hector B.  on  04/25  at  02:54 PM

Thanks, Ms Kate @65. Coffee came out my nose.

Comment #79: Hector B.  on  04/25  at  02:54 PM

@Comment #67: Caelan Aegana

Atheists have license to scoff at damnation

I’m changing my tag-line.  From now on, I’m Cynickal, licensed to scoff

 

Comment #80: cynickal  on  04/25  at  02:56 PM

‘Member how we talked briefly about asexuality in yesterday’s post about desire and I mentioned that asexuality acceptance is really, really important because without it a lot of people end up closeting themselves in religion, abstinence-only advocacy, and other “legitimate” means of avoiding coercion from both progressives and conservatives?

Ross Douthat could be Exhibit A.

As far as I know his only foray into discussing personal sexual experience involved a situation where he felt unwanted pressure to conform to expectations of male sexual behavior.  And even though his vocabulary is informed by traditional conservative religious disgust for women his general tone leaves little doubt that he really just doesn’t like sex, doesn’t want to have it, and really doesn’t like a culture that expects him to have it.  And while, like a lot of other alt-sexualities through the ages, he might be willing to hold his nose and procreate I think there are only two real avenues in which he can ever feel truly comfortable.  One would be enacting a complete anti-sex agenda.  The other would be coming out of the closet and using his prime New York Time op-ed real estate to advocate for tolerance and acceptance of asexuality.

Which, at the end of the day, would be doing a heck of a lot more people a favor than his current stance.  Which, when you think about it, closely matches ours: society at large says “Ross, we expect you to want to have sex with somebody even if we don’t care who.”  And so it’s fairly natural for him to say in return “No, you shouldn’t have sex with anybody, unless you absolutely have to perpetuate the species.”  So anyway, yeah, I think it would be a good thing.  Not only for other asexuals, who obviously would benefit from it.  But also for those of us who actually don’t mind sex… but could probably stand to learn that asexuals are here, that they’re neither straight nor queer, and to get used to it.

figleaf

Comment #81: figleaf  on  04/25  at  03:00 PM

cool. I need to read threads before I post, having almost literally amalgamated Ponygirl and Blackbloc in a single post.

Comment #82: karpad  on  04/25  at  03:05 PM

As someone who was raised Catholic, and who - as a child and in my early youth- aspired to be a priest, I’ve always had a problem with the fundamental concept of hell.  My first problem was that if God and Heaven were supposed to epitomize some pure, perfected state of being, what need (other than a convenient plot device) would there have been for a rebellion in heaven and the casting down of Satan and 1/3 of the host of Heaven?

From here, it starts to spiral out and defy logic and reason…  Did Hell already exist, vacant and purposeless before The Fall, or was it created on-the-spot as a result?  Wouldn’t or Shouldn’t an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God have foreseen this and taken steps to head it off? If not, Why Not? Then the deeper philosophical questions came up:  The span of a human life is so short compared to the span of time and the concept of Eternity, who is to say the Hindus and Buddhists aren’t more right to believe in reincarnation, wherein maybe we get multiple chances to make something decent of ourselves if we fucked up in one life…if i was just a minor fuck-up in life, guilty of a few dumb things here-and-there, why should i end up in the same place as the monsters of history and for the remainder of time as we know it?  If there was really a God and he genuinely loved us, you’d think he’d have come up with a better plan than this.

I spent the period from my late teens to my early twenties going through a period like St. Augustine in reverse…The harder i struggled with my faith, the deeper i sank into despair until there was not much else left to keep life worthwhile beyond my own newly preferred trinity of Sex, Drugs and Rock N Roll

After years of witnessing every attempt to reinforce my beliefs end up with me ending up even less convinced that any of it could be true, I finally ended up losing my faith (and my despair) when i realized just how much of religion was just a giant game of CalvinBall with the rules being made up as people went along and randomly adjusted when convenient.

Comment #83: MadRaven  on  04/25  at  03:08 PM

oh, and Douthat believes that strange women lying about in ponds distributing swords in an excellent way to choose a government because he has never truly seen or must otherwise be a proponent of the violence inherent in the system

Comment #84: MadRaven  on  04/25  at  03:11 PM

@Comment 80: cynickal

From now on, I’m Cynickal, licensed to scoff

I imagine we obtain those from the Ministry of Derisive Attitudes?

Comment #85: Caelan Aegana  on  04/25  at  03:17 PM

figleaf:

The CRW story is more subtle than that. For one thing, he made very clear that the turnoff was the fact that she was a) actually interested in sex and b) willing to take charge of her sexuality, not any expectation of performance on his part. He may in fact be gay or asexual; that’s not impossible. However, he quite evidently doesn’t think very much of sexually liberated women.

His whole world is a very sad and mindlessly strict place and he seems like the sort of person who can’t function outside of a very rigid framework. People like that need counseling and mental health care, not religion.

Comment #86: BrianX  on  04/25  at  03:18 PM

The best stuff I’ve found written about these “Team Hell” guys are by Fred Clark at Slacktivist, in it’s new home at Patheos. In the last month he’s written several good articles denouncing them. I offer these as a believer in what Fred calls “Team Love”.

http://www.patheos.com/community/slacktivist/2011/03/16/the-paradox-of-pitchforks-a-devilish-problem/

http://www.patheos.com/community/slacktivist/2011/03/25/that-chair-doesnt-belong-in-this-play/

http://www.patheos.com/community/slacktivist/2011/03/26/no-not-…-the-comfy-chair/

http://www.patheos.com/community/slacktivist/2011/03/31/the-missiological-case-for-hell/

Comment #87: KMac  on  04/25  at  03:47 PM

Eternity is big. Really big. that’s the problem with the idea of hell.

You’re mortal; you ain’t going to live forever.  Whether in heaven or hell.

Heaven was thought up by people unable to deal with that fact.  And then hell was thought up by the same people to deal with their enemies.

Comment #88: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  04/25  at  03:55 PM

I’ve had to evade that giant monster on numerous occasions.  Scary stuff!  Do you take checks, Mr. Church Collector?  I want to join your protection racket and not have myself all eaten up.

Comment #89: alicefairy  on  04/25  at  04:06 PM

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men [and women] are created equal”
“Why?”
“Because we want to.”

Not a point I should have to make.

Comment #90: seth edenbaum  on  04/25  at  04:06 PM

BrianX, I think his loss of interest when she told him she was on the Pill , if true, could be explained by the thrill of possibly playing fertility pinball with CRW and God was gone, because that’s about the only explanation that makes sense to me.

He might’ve internalized the “enjoyment=sinning” equation so much that an inequality was something that his mind couldn’t process, so everything came to an ungrinding halt.

Comment #91: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/25  at  04:14 PM

f true, could be explained by the thrill of possibly playing fertility pinball with CRW and God was gone

My guess: pill taker == slut, i.e. anyone who wasn’t saving her purity for him.

Comment #92: Hector B.  on  04/25  at  04:47 PM

Comment #59: gretchen on 04/25 at 01:39 PM

Catholic definition of hell:  people who have committed mortal sins go there.  From my long-ago memorization of the Baltimore Catechism, for a sin to be mortal, you must:

1. Do something seriously wrong.
2. Know that it’s seriously wrong.
3. Decide to go ahead and do it anyway.

So most acts by most ordinary mortals, like unauthorized fucking by people who don’t think it’s wrong, don’t count as a mortal sin, so can’t send you to hell, according to Catholic doctrine.

 

I can’t say I remember my Catholic schooling from 15+ years ago well at all, but I’m pretty sure that last sentence doesn’t generally follow.  If you’re not mentally impaired and you’ve been taught by the proper authorities that unauthorized fucking is seriously wrong, then you are supposed to know it; your disagreement or forgetfulness doesn’t change that.  There might be a bit of slack for couples that live really far from a priest who can officiate a marriage promptly, and who get properly married at the first opportunity, but don’t count on it.

Comment #93: sacundim  on  04/25  at  04:50 PM

I’ve always been of the opinion that there’s no such thing as a conservative “intellectual.” If such an individual existed, NYT would not have such a hard time finding one to write a column, would they? Douthat is a clown and a moron of a highest order, almost to the point that it’s beginning to look as if NYT are trying to be subversive in continuing to publish him. I like to pretend that their selection process went something like, “we’ll hire a high-profile conservative to write a column to attract that demographic, but we’ll pick the biggest clown of them all.” It’s not that I have any respect for NYT anyway, but the fact that this guy is actually allowed to spew this sort of idiocy all over their pages should really be a final nail in the coffin of their reputation as an intellectual/liberal paper.

And his story about the sexual encounter? I definitely got the impression at the time that he was turned off by the woman’s sexual agency. Of course asexuals should be accepted. And maybe some of the conservatives with really repellent views of sex are asexual.  I don’t like to speculate about people’s sexuality, but what I do know is that these individuals are moral scolds who hate women and women’s sexual agency first and foremost - and completely independent of any sexual feelings they themselves might/might not have. It’s an interesting way of looking at the unconscious motivation behind some of their rhetoric, but to me it reads a bit like an exercise is what-ifs and excuse-making; these people are dangerous in very real ways (i.e. fueling the anti-abortion, anti-contraception forces) so I’d rather point out ways in which they are a danger to women than to speculate about their personal sexual preferences.

And count me in amongst the Friedman haters; he’s easily the biggest waste of space at NYT and I will never understand how he got to be an authority on anything. And he really can’t write at all. Matt Taibbi’s reviews of his books are really a must-read for anyone who is bewildered at Friendman’s success and in need of a good laugh.

Comment #94: elena  on  04/25  at  04:55 PM

Actually, there’s a lot more to feminism than just “I want to believe”.

Studies exist showing women are intelligent and that they are discriminated against.

No studies exist proving the existence of Hell.

At all.

Different people who do believe behave in wildly different moral fashions.  People who acknowledge the humanity of women tend to treat them like humans.


——-

Limbo doesn’t exist anymore, which is a shame, because that’s where suicides and unbaptized babies went.  I always found it amusing that suicidal people would have to take care of babies forever.

Comment #95: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  04/25  at  04:56 PM

Studies exist showing women are intelligent

All done by female so-called scientists.  Bah, humbug!

Comment #96: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  04/25  at  05:09 PM

@PiaToR: hehe.

Again, Douthat has a fertility fetish.  It is a thing.  Go do a search on the internet and you will find it.  Everything about him suddenly makes sense if you view him as a person who isn’t willing to admit to an unusual fetish and has projected his need for repression onto everyone else.

Comment #97: Punditus Maximus  on  04/25  at  05:14 PM

I’m still getting hung up on Douthat. So wait, we need to believe Ghandi is in Hell to prevent us from thinking Tony Soprano is in Heaven…

Except Tony Soprano was, at least I assume, like most mafioso, Catholic. And according to the faith not works conservative religious types, that in and of itself grants him a free ticket to Heaven. So by their worldview, they have both of the unpalatable ideas of Gandhi in Heaven and Tony Soprano in Hell. Hell, most serial killers are Christian in their origin and have further “conversion” in prison to be even more Jesus-centric. So, according to faith not works rules, they’re kicking back in Heaven too, while the only ones burning for all eternity are guys like Gandhi and Douglas Adams.

You can try and fix that by stressing works, but the works have to be actual works, based on hippie values like respecting other people and seeking to improve their lives (which most Christians don’t like, because foreigny types like Gandhi and atheist types like Douglas Adams would be enjoying their Heaven without paying the right dues and sacrifices that Real True Christians did in making their own lives worse). It’d also mean having to admit that most pastors would be burning in Hell, which would be unacceptable.

Overall, Hell exists in popular imagination because we are vengeful. We want to see some sort of karmic justice for great evil. When lives have been ruined for the most crass and idiotic of reasons (greed, bigotry, because the person thought it would be fun), we want to see some form of punishment, some proof of a just world to intervene to make up in some small way the evil perpetrated.

No one wants to think that Dick Cheney is going to die fat and happy on giant bags of money, that the Koch Brothers will skate on to the grave living a long life of obsequious wealth and that it just ends there. It sticks in the craw of our desire for justice. So we invent Hell to make ourselves feel better.

And then those same villains realize that Hell is a fabulous tool to manipulate and destroy lives. That people will make you rich and destroy your enemies and live lives of such self-imposed misery if you change the rules of who’s in Hell and who’s not. And it becomes as unjust in consideration as anything else.

Comment #98: Cerberus  on  04/25  at  05:18 PM

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men [and women] are created equal”
“Why?”
“Because we want to.”

Not a point I should have to make.

Well, it’s not really the same thing. Beyond all the flowery words, we do the whole equality thing ‘cause the “rule by divine right” thing and the “men are superior by nature” thing and the “people who aren’t just like us aren’t really people” thing have all proven horribly, irredeemably flawed in both execution and empirical study. Now, maybe what we consider “equal treatment under the law” will prove to be just as flawed in the long run, but for right now, it’s the best option we have unless you really want to go back to the ol’ fashioned way. If so, just remember: there’s always someone badder than you.

Religion - at least religion as religionists like Douthhat seem to practice - on the other hand, is a one-way street. There’s nothing behind it, no justification for what it demands beyond “‘cause I said so”. That’s part of what “faith” is, though, that Kierkegaardian willingness to make that jump and banking on it working out all right. “Because I said so” only works if you’re not willing to ask further.

Comment #99: Matt T.  on  04/25  at  05:36 PM

It’s more fun being rich if most people are picking through trash to eat!

Exactly! That’s why the MOTUs are willing to bring down the entire economy as long as the gap between them and the rest of us can be made to be as large as possible.

Comment #100: tesseral  on  04/25  at  05:57 PM

I was sixteen years old when I understood the Christian concept of hell for the first time.  I clarified that 1) Christianity believes that people are born inherently evil, and that 2) The only way into heaven is through grace (with hell being the eternal alternative), and I rejected Christianity utterly and completely on the spot.  No god capable of that level of evil and injustice is worthy of mine or anyone’s worship.  Of course, I have since learned that some Christians reject one or the other of those premises, but I’ve long since moved on in my spiritual journey.

Comment #101: odanu  on  04/25  at  06:16 PM

Limbo doesn’t exist anymore, which is a shame, because that’s where suicides and unbaptized babies went.  I always found it amusing that suicidal people would have to take care of babies forever.

Well, you know how suicide bombers are promised 40 virgins in Paradise?  So, they show up at the Pearly Gates, get handed a whole bunch of diapers and 40 bottles, and told “Because you’ve been really devout, we’re even going to let you have earplugs…”

Comment #102: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  04/25  at  06:49 PM

Matt T,
“we do the whole equality thing ‘cause the “rule by divine right” thing and the “men are superior by nature” thing and the “people who aren’t just like us aren’t really people” thing have all proven horribly, irredeemably flawed in both execution and empirical study.”

There are plenty of liberals who prefer technocrats over priests, though technocrats aren’t elected either.

Brad DeLong:

THERE ARE NO ATTRACTIVE MODERN CONSERVATIVES BECAUSE CONSERVATISM SIMPLY IS NOT ATTRACTIVE. DEAL WITH IT!!

And again:

[Y]ou have to either live in the countryside or live in the city and be really rich to say that rubber tomatoes suck. For those humans who live in the city and are not really rich, rubber tomatoes provide a welcome and tasty and affordable simulacrum of the tomato-eating experience.

Brad Delong calls himself a liberal.  Rationalists rationalize.  Liberals fantasize. Americans have an enormous capacity for faith, in themselves.

Comment #103: seth edenbaum  on  04/25  at  06:53 PM

Damn.  I wanted to read about glands.

Oh, well, that’s what science blogs are for.

Comment #104: weirdnoise  on  04/25  at  07:00 PM

Dark Avenger:

Exactly what I meant.

Comment #105: BrianX  on  04/25  at  07:41 PM

Rubber tomatoes do suck. That’s why they grow the good shit in greenhouses in Canada—I like Camparis for the same reason I used to like Romas before they started picking those early too.

Comment #106: BrianX  on  04/25  at  08:06 PM

Amanda, I would give a lot to be able to write as well as this.  Perhaps even one of my less essential exocrine glands.  Great post.  While it was a bit like shooting fish in a barrel, the shots could not have been more true.  I guess it satisfied my inner liberoilamanunisto-sadist to see you eviscerate this dolt.  Now I can fantasize about watching him read it.

Comment #107: Baal  on  04/25  at  08:13 PM

seth, your comments here, like your blog, are non-sequiturs that you are convinced look like insights.

Comment #108: Tyro  on  04/25  at  08:18 PM

that strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is an excellent basis for government.

Indeed.  It’s well known that supreme executive power derives as a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Comment #109: Captain Bathrobe  on  04/25  at  08:43 PM

I’m not much of a Taibbi fan* but I really enjoyed his take on Friedman.


*He can write a good rant, I’m just not much of a pitchforks-and-torches kind of liberal.

Comment #110: Ben D.  on  04/25  at  09:17 PM

Be quiet!

Comment #111: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/25  at  09:19 PM

seth,

Well, that’s as maybe, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was trying to make, which was that your comparison between religious faith and the concept of equality was flawed logically. Really, based on that, whatever Brad DeLong thinks about either tomatoes or the attractiveness of conservatives makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, I don’t think you know what “rationalists” really are, and you do horrible things to a comma.

My thanks to Tyro for the heads up about your blog. There are not enough hours in the day as it is.

Comment #112: Matt T.  on  04/25  at  09:20 PM

@Ben D., sadly, the time for non-pitchforks-and-torches has passed.

Comment #113: Punditus Maximus  on  04/25  at  10:06 PM

Douthat:

If there’s no possibility of saying no to paradise then none of our no’s have any real meaning either. They’re like home runs or strikeouts in a children’s game where nobody’s keeping score.

Because participation trophies and letting kids enjoy athletics are just wrong.  Winning means nothing if there are no losers.

Gah.

Comment #114: oldfeminist  on  04/26  at  12:34 AM

Be quiet!

I’m going to resist the temptation to continue reciting the scene.  But it’s a strong temptation, oh yes it is.

Comment #115: Captain Bathrobe  on  04/26  at  01:57 AM

I ordered you to be quiet!

Comment #116: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/26  at  02:31 AM

Ah, Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Keeping anarcho-syndicalism bright in the imagination for over 35 years.

Comment #117: Yamara  on  04/26  at  07:04 AM

Come and see the violence inherent in the system!

Comment #118: speedbudget  on  04/26  at  08:15 AM

Bloody peasant!

Comment #119: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/26  at  08:37 AM

He must be the king.  He isn’t covered in shit.

Comment #120: helen w. h.  on  04/26  at  09:32 AM

I imagine we obtain those from the Ministry of Derisive Attitudes?

Comment #85: Caelan Aegana

Yes, it’s much easier than being certified a genius

Comment #121: cynickal  on  04/26  at  10:15 AM

Have not read whole thread, but just commenting to say that this passage

“It even tells you why so many Republicans would destroy our nation’s prosperity in order to create a wide gulf between the rich and everyone else.  It’s more fun being rich if most people are picking through trash to eat!  It’s like having a home run.  It’s harder to tell you’ve “won” if your neighbor’s house is smaller than yours but they still live a relatively comfortable, prosperous life.”

made a lot of little clicking sounds happen in my brain, as a few more pieces of the ghastly puzzle of the irrationality of contemporary society fell into place. Thanks for that. Shorter (already short) Amanda: “Assholes don’t like equality or prosperity because they’re assholes, and they enjoy the idea of other people suffering.” It might seem like circular logic, but in fact it explains so very much ...

Comment #122: CassieC  on  04/26  at  11:20 AM

I would like to note that I was first familiarized with the definition of glands as endocrine glands, like the pancreas and whatnot… I don’t think I realized it was used as a euphemism for testicles until I was well into adulthood.

Comment #123: BrianX  on  04/27  at  01:30 AM

I may be completely missing sarcasm, but if I were forced to give birth and be a parent that would make me more likely to commit suicide (I already have suicidal thoughts on a regular basis and self-harming thoughts as well as bouts of depression and intrusive thoughts, primarily of the sexually shaming type), is anyone here seriously suggesting that it’s a just punishment that I be forced to take care of babies for several lifetimes or eternity?

Comment #124: RadFemHedonist  on  04/28  at  08:16 AM

@RadFemHedonist

I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that suicide deserves to be punished AT ALL, just that they found the concept of limbo (and the related, but I personally had never thought of it, child-care angle) funny.

I think that it is pretty funny that Cinderella’s step-sisters have their eyes pecked out by birds, but that certainly doesn’t mean that I agree with the narrative that this is a just punishment for being incredibly mean to Cinderella and for lying to royalty.  If I actually believed that birds would swoop down from the sky to exact such a punishment for one or both of those “crimes,” it wouldn’t be funny at all.

Comment #125: Atheist, A Feminist  on  04/29  at  06:27 PM
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