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Next entry: Not That I’m Saying Obama Is The Muslim Hitler Previous entry: Be A Shame If Anything Happened To These Rights You Got Here

Oprah: Cult of personality or just really good at telling you what you want to hear?

Because I’ve fallen somewhat behind on my reading, I was only able last night to catch up to this excellent Newsweek expose of the public health menace that is Oprah Winfrey.  No matter how bad you feared it was, Oprah’s even worse than you could have imagined, letting her “experts” push ideas such as “diet will prevent you from catching HPV, so don’t worry about the vaccine” and otherwise encouraging her viewers to take health measure that will actually degrade their health and work against their interests.  It also functions a neat examination of the sort of motivations that keep health woo alive, despite all evidence and common sense against it.  I somewhat disagree with the authors, who seem to think that the emphasis on woo on Oprah’s show is all about her massive ego.  It actually seems to me that it’s ratings-grabbing pandering, and Oprah just has, for whatever reason, a real ear for those things that will trip up her audience’s wishes and anxieties.  Health woo tends to rely on a few principles to keep people’s interest and money flowing:

1) Bad things don’t happen to good people.*
2) There must be a way of understanding the body that doesn’t involve actually gaining difficult and often embarrassing knowledge.
3) The world is out to get me.
4) There must be a quick, easy solution out of any problem, and it’s just a matter of finding out what it is.

Since Oprah’s audience is largely female, they aren’t completely off in their sense that the world is out to get them.  But the reasons for this and the ways to fight it that Oprah offers are fucked up.  Yes, people routinely discredit women’s intelligence.  But the solution is not, as Oprah protege Jenny McCarthy suggests, to claim a special female-only “mommy knowledge” that automatically trumps evidence and reason.  Reading the article, I really began to see why McCarthy’s anti-vaccination campaign is such a hit with so many mothers.  She is exploiting the already-present frustration women have with everyone and their dog thinking they’re smarter than you and need to make all your decisions for you, frustration that amps up when you have a kid and you start to feel the Perfect Mommy pressure from every side.  McCarthy’s schtick is to imply that rebelling against vaccinations is the perfect way to soothe that hurt ego.  Of course you’re smart!  Giving birth automatically confers more understanding of the body than centuries of research could ever create.  Who doesn’t want to believe that it’s that easy?

What really cinched it for me with regards to Oprah’s remarkable ability to laser pinpoint women’s anxieties is her constant reliance on Christine Northrup, who is an utter genius as playing on women’s anxieties.  See, Oprah put on weight, which she blamed on her thyroid (which is possible, but it also could have been an convenient excuse that fits into #4).  So, Northrup came on to assure women that they put on weight because the world is so unfair to them.

But Northrup believes thyroid problems can also be the result of something else. As she explains in her book, “in many women, thyroid dysfunction develops because of an energy blockage in the throat region, the result of a lifetime of ‘swallowing’ words one is aching to say.”

On the show, she told Oprah that “your body gives you signals: ‘Hey, you’ve been putting too much stuff under the carpet ...’ “


Oh god, it’s genius.  Who doesn’t want to believe that all you need to do to lose weight is start telling more people that have it coming to fuck off?  It’s so tempting that I was half buying it, even though I know that it’s 100% bullshit.  But talk about knowing your audience.  Most women are well-trained to suffer people’s bullshit and to take on a bunch of extra responsibilities because saying no is unladylike.  But here is this doctor telling you that your obligation to be demure is conflicting with your obligation to be thin, and so you have a perfect excuse to speak your mind without violating the rules of femininity.  You’re not speaking up because you want to!  Oh no, it’s your new diet plan.

Northrup is a renegade gynecologist, who exploits women’s desire to find the perfect balance between the requirement to be excellent in bed with the requirement not to seem too knowledgeable or experienced at it.  So, you get a lot of shit on Oprah about improving your orgasm through chi channeling, instead of the old-fashioned way of mucking around in your genitals to know what actually works, a most unladylike behavior.  So it’s really no surprise that she bought into the hostility to the HPV vaccine, hostility that I’ve found in surprising corners that is unsurprisingly related to belief #1.  Seriously, I’ve even been in rooms with feminists who are happy to imply that there’s not really a need for the vaccine for everyone, since it’s sexually transmitted and…..I guess not everyone is a bad girl who has sex?  What number of partners do you have to have before HPV spontaneously generates as a slut punishment?  I’m guessing the magic number is always two more than the person dropping the hints.

Northrup isn’t that crude, but she happily invokes the image of a pure, good woman who can’t get HPV.

McCarthy is not the only guest who has warned Oprah’s viewers off vaccines. Last summer Dr. Christiane Northrup, a physician and one of Oprah’s regular experts, took questions from the audience. One woman asked about the HPV vaccine, which protects women against a sexually transmitted virus that can cause cervical cancer. Northrup advised against getting the shot. “I’m a little against my own profession,” she said. “My own profession feels that everyone should be vaccinated.” But Northrup cautioned, “There have been some deaths from the vaccine.” She suggested a different approach. “Where I’d put my money is getting everybody on a dietary program that would enhance their immunity, and then they would be able to resist that sort of thing. All right?”

It’s not exactly the “only sluts get STDs” routine, but it’s close in that it’s another variation of claiming that STDs are the result of not treating the body like a temple, instead of, you know, being exposed to the bacteria or virus that causes an STD.  But I’d argue that it’s in the same category, since food and sex are closely intertwined in the American imagination as dual sins, especially with women.  It’s easy to see why, since both are about breaching the boundaries between inside and outside the body, so both are subject to purity fantasies.  Eating right, like not being a slut, goes back to the same thing in this system—-it’s more about what you don’t put in your body than what you do.  That bowl of ice cream or bad boy who wouldn’t call you the next day are why you have an STD. You don’t get those things from broccoli or husbands.

And let’s not even talk about “The Secret”, which got so out of control that Oprah actually found herself in the uncomfortable position of realizing one of her fans was going to forgo cancer treatment and hope the power of positive thinking would save her from breast cancer.

Again, my one criticism of the article is that the authors get so entranced, as everyone does, with Oprah’s cult of personality that they think that must be the problem.  In other words, Oprah pushes woo because Oprah believes in woo.  She may believe in it, or she may be a complete huckster, though I suspect the truth lay somewhere in between those two poles.  What’s relevant is that she has a remarkable ear for what her largely female audience wants to hear. She may have that ear because she shares their concerns or because she’s got a lot of practice, but probably some of both.  But the stuff she’s hustling is all over daytime TV.  Believe me; I monitor a lot of morning talk shows for my podcast, because they are always on about the dangers of sluttitude.  I imagine if I monitored them for other kinds of woo, I’d find that as well.  The main difference is that Oprah can up the ante on the outrageous claims because she’s got such an authoritative presence.

*Otherwise known as the Megan McArdle “why I’m comfortable with 3rd trimester abortion bans” principle.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:59 AM • (213) Comments

“I guess not everyone is a bad girl who has sex?  What number of partners do you have to have before HPV spontaneously generates as a slut punishment?  I’m guessing the magic number is always two more than the person dropping the hints. “

ANd, like age it magically rises as your own personal number does.

Comment #1: phylosopher  on  06/09  at  11:07 AM

“I guess not everyone is a bad girl who has sex?  What number of partners do you have to have before HPV spontaneously generates as a slut punishment?  I’m guessing the magic number is always two more than the person dropping the hints. “

considering that the estimate is that 75% of the sexually active population has HPV, well, the odds are real good that a virgin on their wedding night will get it.

Oh, wait, sorry, I’m dealing in “facts” and “logic” again.

Jenny McCarthy pisses me off so much that I sometimes want to have a baby and not vaccinate it just sxo it can die from measles and I can sue her.

Comment #2: Siobhan  on  06/09  at  11:30 AM

I get exasperated with either/or arguments. 

Our healtcare system is messed up and allopathic medicine is DEADLY (one of a zillion examples: there’s no proof that chemotherapy works, but there is proof that it kills).  That said, admonitions from the holistic healthcare industries that their alternatives are the be-all and end-all deserve the rolleye. Naturopathic and holistic health approaches work best as complementary treatments, not replacements.  Smart people mix them up. 

Strengthening one’s health with nutrition, supplements, yoga, whatever, make the body resistant to disease.  I gave up my yearly flu shot when I fixed my diet and my overall health dramatically improved.  I gave up all my prescription pills in favor of nutritional supplements and the results have been OUTSTANDING.  Granted, this is my anecdote, but still.

How do I feel about challenging the status quo on vaccination policy?  I’m all for it.  Let all parents who care do their research and make informed decisions.  Lord knows governments have botched public health policies before. Just do what the government says? You’re joking, right?  My family got very sick from its obedience to the Powers That Be.  Grandparents dead from diabetes. Never again.

Bottom line:  Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, do your homework, question everything yada yada.  Common sense, anyone?

Comment #3: The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker  on  06/09  at  11:40 AM

See this whole HPV thing pisses me off to know end.  The religious right loved HPV as an STD.  Its got everything!  It can lead to a painful death, condoms don’t do anything for it, hell you might even get it without intercourse by just fooling around a little too much!  If the right could design an STD to scare people HPV would be it!  But then they go and design a vaccine.  We must fight tooth and nail to keep our boogie man disease alive!

And so we can a huge debate over disease prevention because the religious right needs a semi-truthful talkingpoint.  And it enters the mainstream as a “controversy” and we then open the door to quacks.

Comment #4: Robert  on  06/09  at  11:42 AM

“Jenny McCarthy pisses me off so much that I sometimes want to have a baby and not vaccinate it just sxo it can die from measles and I can sue her.”

An I a bad person if this made me laugh out loud?

Comment #5: GumbyAnne  on  06/09  at  12:04 PM

Hey, Hedonistic Pleasureseeker - tell that chemo story to my mom. She’ll slap you silly and probably call you a fool while doing it. The only reason she’s alive is the chemo/radiation she had after they found stage 3 cancer. She won’t lie, it is rough treatment - I cared for her while she was going through it. She’s technically not cured (hasn’t been 5 years yet, which is when they call cure), but she’s back to her old self and no cancer found anywhere. Conversely, a doctor I know lived her life as healthily as anyone I’ve ever known: vegan, daily exercise, the whole health/fitness regimen. She got cancer, too. Twice. It’s all due to genes, diet, environment, and stress.

Comment #6: mndean  on  06/09  at  12:07 PM

[T]here’s no proof that chemotherapy works….

Do provide something in the way of support for this assertion, won’t you?

How do I feel about challenging the status quo on vaccination policy?  I’m all for it.  Let all parents who care do their research and make informed decisions.  Lord knows governments have botched public health policies before.

This is how four-week old infants die from pertussis.  Because parents think that watching Oprah and reading Jenny McCarthy constitute research and decide that their child isn’t going to be put at risk of whatever horrible awful thing will happen if they’re vaccinated.  We’ve forgotten how devastating the illnesses that childhood vaccines prevent really are.  So… what have your researches found?  That putting the lives and health of others dependent on herd immunity at risk is acceptable to you?

But it’s fine, ‘cos the government never does anything right and always lies.  People in America don’t die from cholera because governments provide sanitary drinking water; it’s because they are personally virtuous.  I expect the people in Zimbabwe who are dying from cholera just needed to take their vitamins, right?  That germ theory bullshit is just a theory.

Comment #7: kaninchen  on  06/09  at  12:08 PM

GumbyAnne, you’re not the only one.

Re: HPV, that whole thing pisses me off so much. As I’ve said before, I got my HPV as a virgin from the jackass who raped me (of course, it was “date rape” and not “outright rape”, as the University of Idiots defines it), and this was back when they used a laser on you to sear off all the genital warts. Very painful. The nurse I went to tried to slut shame me and got real red in the face when I started screaming to her about my rape. Of course, I have no doubt she went home later and decided that I really was a liar.

Because abstinence protects girls from STDs, always.

Comment #8: Essie Elephant  on  06/09  at  12:11 PM

See this whole HPV thing pisses me off to know end.  The religious right loved HPV as an STD.  Its got everything!  It can lead to a painful death, condoms don’t do anything for it, hell you might even get it without intercourse by just fooling around a little too much!

Also, it punishes women much, much more often than men.  I think it’s possible for men to get penile cancer form it, but it’s very rare.  Gay men are also vulnerable for anal cancer if they are on the receiving end.  So it’s even better for conservatives than you realized.

Comment #9: bananacat  on  06/09  at  12:11 PM

there’s no proof that chemotherapy works, but there is proof that it kills
You’re kidding, right? You really have no idea how many lives have been saved by chemo? I could list half a dozen family members alone.

Granted, this is my anecdote, but still.
Still what? It’s no basis for public health policy.

Comment #10: amancay  on  06/09  at  12:14 PM

(one of a zillion examples: there’s no proof that chemotherapy works, but there is proof that it kills)

WTF are you talking about?  If shrinking and vanishing tumors aren’t proof that chemotherapy can work, what’s your explanation?  Have millions of people just coincidentally experienced the exact same placebo effect?  It was a total fluke that Daniel Hauser’s tumor shrank during chemotherapy and grew larger when he stopped after one treatment?

Oh, and I’ve had New Agey people like you tell me that the reason my mother died of aggressive breast cancer at a young age was that she must have secretly wanted to die, so I have zero patience for people who try to blame cancer patients for their own disease.

Comment #11: Mnemosyne  on  06/09  at  12:17 PM

Bottom line:  Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, do your homework, question everything yada yada.  Common sense, anyone?

Common sense is great. But common sense tells me that I should ignore the thundering moron who claims there’s no proof that chemo works and that diabetes is caused by “obedience to the Powers That Be.”

Comment #12: Scott  on  06/09  at  12:21 PM

There are a lot of psychological reasons why people believe in CAM.  People aren’t as rational as we think we are, and it’s easy to be influenced by emotion.  That’s why testimonials are more persuasive than actual data.  The problem is, dead people don’t give testimonials, but they are included in scientific studies.  So if 100 people took herbs for cancer and 90 of them died, you’d never know.  That leaves 10 nice testimonials for the herb company to use to increase profit.  Nobody likes uncertainty, and doctors and scientists cannot ethically say that something is ever 100% effective, because that’s just impossible.  So if a doctor tells you that a cancer treatment is 95% effective, or even 60% effective, it’s tempting to go with the herb-pushers who say that their treatment is 100% guaranteed, even though it’s just 100% of the surviving people who survived, while they conveniently ignore all the people that it didn’t work for.

I could go on for hours about all the psychological biases and fallacies involved, but I think the most important point is that dead people don’t give testimonials.  We need to get past our emotional response and look at the actual data.

Comment #13: bananacat  on  06/09  at  12:24 PM

See none of those people who had chemo actually had cancer in the first place, it’s the conspiracy of eeeeeeeevil doctors so they can use their government technology to imprint their nanotags on your brain so they can track you with the black helicopters, man!

*SMOKES WEED*

Comment #14: Dan  on  06/09  at  12:28 PM

there’s no proof that chemotherapy works, but there is proof that it kills

Not to pile on, but WTF? I work for a larger cancer organization, so I’m going to require some pretty extraordinary proof that chemo doesn’t work before believing this. It CAN kill (it’s an intense treatment), but the reason it is given is that the benefits vastly outweigh the harm.

A healthy diet/positive attitude/exercise regime is nice, but those things aren’t going to cure cancer on their own.

Comment #15: RebeccaT  on  06/09  at  12:29 PM

The question here is whether a women’s talk show can present pseudo-science, and still be taken seriously.

I would say no, unless the pseudo-science was manifestly for entertainment purposes only, like astrology, or unless the episodes featuring pseudo-science were accompanied with continuous disclaimers.

When, years ago, chemotherapy did not help my mother, she was advised by a New Age quack to take vitamins by the handful, and receive regular coffee enemas. In general “allopathic” medicine works better than that. Further, nowadays, as they say, cancer is a noun and not a sentence.

Comment #16: Hector B.  on  06/09  at  12:29 PM

Before this completely derails into a PubMed discussion about chemotherapy…

If you take the long view about Oprah, here is a woman who, for the first decade and a half of her career (maybe more?), was the subject of ENDLESS scrutiny about her relationship, her weight, and her health. The tabloids loved to speculate about how and why she was just a failure! as a human being! She was a sexist’s perfect target (and hell, I can recognize that there was a racist element as well).  She was a visible, powerful woman who had the temerity to be visible and powerful and also a human being who was flawed.

Now, as anyone who had to endure middle school knows, sometimes the easiest way to stop being bullied is to turn around and bully other people, and this is more or less what happened to Oprah. She would get gurus on the show: people like Dr. Phil and Dr. Northrup who could turn around and declare that Nuh-UH, people who don’t do things Oprah’s way are broken!

And the audience who watches it eats it up for all the reasons Amanda’s already pointed out, but mostly, these experts relieve Oprah, who now has her own army of experts to shield her from the gangpiling that made up so much of her early career. Sort of like Tobacco Institute Scientists.

It doesn’t make what she’s doing “better,” but I certainly can understand why someone under the sort of assault that Oprah was under would turn to this sort of behavior.

Comment #17: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/09  at  12:30 PM

One of the other reasons the anti-medicine ideas go over so well is that the history of medicine in regard to how it treats women (still) is awful; someone above mentioned slut-shaming by a nurse. Add fat-shaming (i.e., all your health problems, including your flu? Caused by your fatty fattness!), a extremely unconcerned attitude towards various scary beautification techniques with unknown side effects, the statistical evidence that women’s genuine health needs are undertreated resulting in higher mortality, etc. etc., and the resentment Oprah is tapping into gets even larger.

I run into this a lot in the women’s rights-in-birth community that I’m involved in; on the one hand, you have good solid studies showing that a lot of hospital practices in birth (like the recently-discontinued episiotomy) are more harmful than helpful and that women overall actually do better with less interference/intervention during labor. But there are factions that take that and run with it to the extent of thinking that all medicine is bad, including immunizations. (Which is not the stance of responsible midwifery at all.)  And it is hard to find a middle ground between the two. It is good to challenge medical practice, because it has been wrong, especially where women are concerned; but only if you do so in a scientific way. But that way is hard, confusing, and slow. After all, the medical culture took forever to even accept germ theory and sterilization. And when people are angry, hurt, or discouraged, it’s easy to sell them your crazy theory that seems to explain it all.

Comment #18: emjaybee  on  06/09  at  12:31 PM

Oh, and one of my favorite bits of pseudopsychobabble was on a PBS cooking show hosted by a crunchygranola type. I was watching with interest because it seemed like she had a lot of good information on the nutritional and health benefits of different fruits and vegetables. Then, while chopping up scallions, she actually said “scallions are good for posture. See, scallions, they stand up very straight, and when you eat scallions, you’ll stand up straighter yourself.”

That’s when I turned the TV off.

Comment #19: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/09  at  12:32 PM

“Jenny McCarthy pisses me off so much that I sometimes want to have a baby and not vaccinate it just so it can die from measles and I can sue her.”

I can’t tell you how many friends of mine that are nurses (with & without children) that have told me this (not word for word, but you know what I mean). They get SO angry when she organizes these marches against vaccines, my SIL actually started shaking. “Don’t vaccinate your kids, then send them to school carrying a virus they will spread to all the other kids?! Fucking idiots!”

Comment #20: Mark  on  06/09  at  12:33 PM

What is ‘woo’?

Comment #21: Richard Goblin  on  06/09  at  12:34 PM

there’s no proof that chemotherapy works, but there is proof that it kills

WTF are you talking about?  If there was no proof that chemo worked, doctors wouldn’t use it and insurance companies wouldn’t pay for it.  It’s emotionally and physically horrible for the person undergoing it, and it’s incredibly expensive.  If it didn’t have a decent success rate, no one would use it at all.

Comment #22: NonyNony  on  06/09  at  12:34 PM

It’s usually cute when people claim “I just don’t get sick.  It just doesn’t happen to me.”  I had a friend in college who said that, and then a month later he had the flu.  A month after that, he had conveniently forgotten about his previous flu.  The thing is, only about one third of people get the flu each year anyway.  It really shouldn’t be surprising to go years without getting it, especially if you don’t have kids, and aren’t in school, etc.  That doesn’t mean that flu shots are useless.  I make sure to get one every year; I see it as a duty to help protect the rest of society.  If I don’t get the flu, that means I won’t pass it on to an elderly person or an infant.

Another common problem is the appeal to nature fallacy.  A lot of people assume that natural is always better, and the word “chemical” is treated like a four-letter-word.  Of course, everything is a chemical, including water, and everything is dangerous in the wrong circumstances.  Air conditioning, shaving, clothing, and cars are certainly not natural, but most people would not want to give up all of those things.  Poison ivy, sever weather, cobras, and poisonous mushrooms are all natural, and still dangerous.

Comment #23: bananacat  on  06/09  at  12:37 PM

allopathic medicine

When you use the term “allopathic medicine”, it means one of two things:

1. You believe in quack nonsense like homeopathy, or
2. You’re naive enough to be conned by people who do.

“Allopathic medicine” is a screaming code term, like talking about “states’ rights” or “pro-life”.

Comment #24: KeithM  on  06/09  at  12:37 PM

Augustlet’s little league had a team sponsored by Generation Rescue. When I first heard it announced over the PA on “opening day” I thought it was Operation Rescue, and said “My son is never fucking playing for that team, I can tell you right now.” I got home and looked it up, realizing it was the anti-vax group, and said “My son is never playing against that team, I can tell you right now.”

Comment #25: Auguste  on  06/09  at  12:38 PM

What is ‘woo’?

Woo is a common term for unproven/untested treatments for any disease.

Comment #26: bananacat  on  06/09  at  12:40 PM

When you use the term “allopathic medicine”, it means one of two things:

Or 3) You’re trying to distinguish from osteopathic medicine, which is a genuine discipline producing doctors who work mostly interchangeably with MDs. It’s a pretty rare usage still, and certainly not what the commenter meant, but the pedant in me wouldn’t let it go uncommented on.

Comment #27: Auguste  on  06/09  at  12:41 PM

What is ‘woo’?

Not sure about a precise definition, but think of it as a low-rent Vegas magician doing magic tricks with gimmicked rings while a guy with a Casio keyboard backstage hits the “Wooo-EEEE-oooooo” sound effect over and over.

Now apply that to pseudo-science and pseudo-medical treatments.

Comment #28: Scott  on  06/09  at  12:41 PM

lot of people assume that natural is always better

Strychnine is natural.  As are toadstools, belladonna and arsenic.

As is the AIDS virus, the Flu virus, and E Coli.

Penicillin is “chemical.”

Go fig.

An I a bad person if this made me laugh out loud?

Glad I could make someone laugh wink.

Comment #29: Siobhan  on  06/09  at  12:46 PM

Oprah is a prime example of how the “woo” people take a kernel of truth - usually out of context - and exaggerate or twist it to a ridiculous degree.  Yes, people with positive attitudes tend to be healthier and have better results during cancer treatment than people with a negative attitude.  I don’t know that there has been solid research why.  My guess is that it has to do with compliance regarding treatment, medication, follow-up, etc.  People who believe they can beat the disease may be more likely to comply with medical advice and may be more aggressive about their health care than people who believe become paralyzed with fear or depression and believe they’ll die from the disease. 

HOWEVER, it is ludicrous to take that information and say that positive people don’t get cancer or can wish themselves well, or that negative people “deserve” cancer. That’s just victim blaming and denial.  “If I think the right things, it can’t happen to me”.

Comment #30: BadKitty  on  06/09  at  12:46 PM

One of the other reasons the anti-medicine ideas go over so well is that the history of medicine in regard to how it treats women (still) is awful;

This is another problem when it comes to people believing in woo (not that you do personally).  A lot of of it rests on a false dichotomy.  People think that if doctors are bad, then pseudo-medicine must be good by default.  That’s simply not true.  I’ve had plenty of experiences with bad doctors, and I’ve even felt discouraged at times, but that says absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of untested/unproven treatments.  Also, a doctor who is a jerk doesn’t discredit the evidence that a particular treatment works.  Remember that 50% of doctors graduated in the bottom half of their class.  I really think that a lot of doctors need to work on their interaction with patients, and that it should be emphasized more in medical school, but that does not mean that the treatments they offer are any less effective.

Comment #31: bananacat  on  06/09  at  12:49 PM

Well, another of the reasons that some people might buy into “anti-medicine ideas” is that they may have had bad experiences.  When I was trying to quit smoking about 10 years ago my doctor prescribed what was then a new anti-smoking pill to help me.  It caused me to have a seizure, an incredibly frightening experience.  An old neighbor of mine and a close friend of my mom’s, was on cholesterol-lowering medication.  She died ten years ago while waiting for a liver transplant.  Her doctor had never ordered the blood tests you are supposed to get while on that medicine, and her liver was destroyed.  I broke my shoulder last year and the doctor told me I needed surgery and if I did not have it I would never lift my arm over my head again.  I am only 40 so that’s a big deal.  But I have always worked out and I know the power of exercise.  I also believe that any surgery carries risk. I believed I could repair the arm through physical therapy, declined the surgery and worked hard.  Today you would never know I broke my shoulder and I can absolutely lift it above my head.

Frankly, I am much less willing to pop a pill just cause a doctor gave it to me now. 

But that does not mean that I am anti-medicine, necessarily. Certainly I take antibiotics.  Certainly, if I had cancer I would take whatever medical treatments were available.  And I would have my children vaccinated were I having children.

Comment #32: Lady Vader  on  06/09  at  12:51 PM

It’s no basis for public health policy.

What about having strange women lying in ponds distributing swords as a basis for public health policy? wink

Comment #33: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/09  at  12:51 PM

For and excellent read of why people like Opera and her guests are considered experts I recommend the book “Idiot America” by Charles P. Pierce.

Comment #34: tresameht  on  06/09  at  12:54 PM

1) Bad things don’t happen to good people.

This is really one of the most hilarious jokes ever. Anyone who has lived for at least a few years knows this is bullshit. And yet people still cling to it. I guess there wouldn’t be any religion either if people weren’t so suceptible to magical thinking.

HeadonisticPleasureseeker, As for the “no proof that chemo cures cancer” - like other commenters here - tell it to my grandmother (breast cancer) and my dad (prostate cancer).
As for this -

How do I feel about challenging the status quo on vaccination policy?  I’m all for it.  Let all parents who care do their research and make informed decisions.

Hmm… unless you are a parent with a medical degree and married/partnered to/with an epidemiologist how are these parents going to make “informed decisions” praytell? Medical science has rid the world of so many diseases that even our parents used to fear (polio anyone?) and now we’re going to start bringing them back just because a few deniers of actual proven science choose to rely on hearsay? I call bullshit. If you breed - you need to be respectful of the world you’re bringing another life into as well.

Comment #35: Danica Lefse Queen  on  06/09  at  12:56 PM

Well, another of the reasons that some people might buy into “anti-medicine ideas” is that they may have had bad experiences.  When I was trying to quit smoking about 10 years ago my doctor prescribed what was then a new anti-smoking pill to help me.  It caused me to have a seizure, an incredibly frightening experience.  An old neighbor of mine and a close friend of my mom’s, was on cholesterol-lowering medication.  She died ten years ago while waiting for a liver transplant.  Her doctor had never ordered the blood tests you are supposed to get while on that medicine, and her liver was destroyed.

Yes, anecdotes are very emotional and powerful.  That doesn’t mean we should ignore statistical data.  It’s possible that your doctor messed up, but the risks for seizure are probably much less than the risk of continuing smoking.  In any case, your doctor should have told you about the risk of side effects.  If s/he didn’t, you should certainly complain about it.  In your friend’s case, her doctor clearly did a bad job and should be tried for malpractice.  But, a bad doctor says absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of pseudo-medical treatments.  A billion bad doctors will not make woo work any better.  It’s a logical fallacy.

Comment #36: bananacat  on  06/09  at  01:00 PM

Not to pile on to Hedonistic Pleasureseeker, but damn, that assertion about chemo was the dumbest thing I’ve read today. I eagerly await your “proof” that chemo kills but does not heal. I just spent the weekend with somebody who’d likely laugh in your face (or possibly punch you out) if you made that statement to her, as her son who nearly died of leukemia is a healthy and rambunctious kid today thanks to chemo. I’d also like to see your evidence that actually researching vaccination (by which I mean reading the extensive science already available on vaccines, not watching Jenny McCarthy videos on Age of Autism) will produce anything but “hell yes I’m going to vaccinate my kids.”

But what I really want to know is: How did listening to the government give your grandparents diabetes?

Great post, Amanda!

Comment #37: StephanieB  on  06/09  at  01:01 PM

Mighty Ponygirl- I agree. I’m always a little skeptical of anti-Oprah articles because there’s always been so much misogyny against her, and a lot of people dislike her show largely because it’s so feminine.  (I’ve read a lot of Lewis Grizzard books from the 80s and probably 25% of his articles make fun of Oprah’s weight.)

Comment #38: RebeccaT  on  06/09  at  01:03 PM

But, a bad doctor says absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of pseudo-medical treatments.  A billion bad doctors will not make woo work any better.  It’s a logical fallacy.

No, but it’s part of what helps people be open to alternative medicine.  Also I think that anyone who has read some basic journalistic investigations into the disturbing financial and other ties between doctors and pharmacutical salespeople/companies, would have to question that every prescription written is a prescription that was needed.  I certainly question it.  I think you have a lot of factors feeding into this, and then you add someone like Oprah or Jenny McCarthy representing American anti-intellectualism, and it’s really no big mystery.

Comment #39: Lady Vader  on  06/09  at  01:05 PM

Let all parents who care do their research and make informed decisions.

No matter how much Jenny McCarthy wants it to be, Google is not a good place to get an education.  You shouldn’t believe everything you read online, and the same goes for TV.  If you do research on Google, you’ll find “evidence” to support any position.  I haven’t explained the history of the anti-vaccine movement because it’s very long, but I’m willing to describe it if anyone wants.

Comment #40: bananacat  on  06/09  at  01:05 PM

For and excellent read of why people like Opera and her guests are considered experts I recommend the book “Idiot America” by Charles P. Pierce.

Oh I have that on order from Amazon.  I fucking love that guy!  He writes nearly every Friday over at Altercation - Eric Alterman’s blog.  I go there just to read Pierce.  Just a master with the language.

Comment #41: Lady Vader  on  06/09  at  01:07 PM

What is ‘woo’?

It’s the opposite of “fu”.

“In many women, thyroid dysfunction develops because of an energy blockage in the throat region,”

Oh, don’t get me started on the casual use of “energy” in woo. If there’s energy being “blocked”, where’s the heat showing up? Have the laws of thermodyanmics been repealed?

Lazy reification is not medicine, goddammit.

Health woo tends to rely on a few principles to keep people’s interest and money flowing:

1) Bad things don’t happen to good people.*
2) There must be a way of understanding the body that doesn’t involve actually gaining difficult and often embarrassing knowledge.
3) The world is out to get me.
4) There must be a quick, easy solution out of any problem, and it’s just a matter of finding out what it is.

It occurs to me that there’s similarities there with the Know-Nothing stance on foreign policy and economics.

Comment #42: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/09  at  01:08 PM

Well, maybe Hedonistic Pleasureseeker lost someone they loved during chemo treatments.  This is a powerfully emotional subject, I hope people will take care.

Comment #43: Lady Vader  on  06/09  at  01:09 PM

Yes, people with positive attitudes tend to be healthier and have better results during cancer treatment than people with a negative attitude.

This is in fact not true.

And to address what Mighty Ponygirl said about Oprah’s reasons for promoting these sorts of things:  You’re not wrong.  But I think that a lot of it comes down to her belief that because she succeeded despite the very many obstacles others should too.  Her entire career is based on presenting the exceptional and rare as normal.  Which strikes me as horribly destructive: If you can’t overcome racial prejudice, or a disability, or being fat, it’s your fault for not wanting it badly enough.  Occasionally she recognises this like with the woman who was going to stop all medical treatment for cancer and trust The Secret to cure her, but next week she’ll be right back with the blind person who solo-climbed Mount Everest or whatever.

Comment #44: kaninchen  on  06/09  at  01:10 PM

Also I think that anyone who has read some basic journalistic investigations into the disturbing financial and other ties between doctors and pharmacutical salespeople/companies, would have to question that every prescription written is a prescription that was needed.

Do you think that herb-pushers give away their stuff for free?  They’re the ones who are in it for the money.  Do you know what homeopathy is?  It’s literally water.  You are paying for a little bottle of water.  If doctors were just in it for the money, they could easily try to sell you useless stuff that is made of cheap materials, like water.  Now, I’m not claiming that doctors are perfect, and I’m sure there are some corrupt and greedy ones, but don’t make the mistake that alt-med sellers are somehow innocent of greed.

Comment #45: bananacat  on  06/09  at  01:11 PM

Man, my slew of aunt- and great aunt-nurses hate this shit. They all have fucking horror stories about what these diseases actually do to nice little yuppie kids, and you better believe between them and my immune-deficient mom, my kids are vaxxed the fuck up.

Comment #46: redwards  on  06/09  at  01:12 PM

Woo is a common term for unproven/untested treatments for any disease.

Thanks, catgirl.

Comment #47: Richard Goblin  on  06/09  at  01:15 PM

I never knew a thing about Christine Northrup but now I think she ought to lose her license to practice medicine. What bullshit. And I hadn’t seen the Newsweek article—thanks for bringing it to our attention, Amanda.

It’s so darned difficult to do controlled studies on whether chemotherapy kills people. You know why? Because so many of the people who use chemotherapy have cancer and darn it, cancer likes to kill people too. Plus, hello!, we all know that chemo is toxic. It destroys both healthy cells and cancerous ones. That’s why the side effects are so terrible. But the effects of untreated cancer on lifespan and quality of life can be far worse than the effects of chemo. (My aunt took many chemo drugs, but it was the ovarian cancer that killed her. What the chemo did was extend her lifespan beyond what the cancer had in mind.)

Comment #48: Orange  on  06/09  at  01:16 PM

No matter the topic, I’ll always be uncomfortable with the “it’s your fault for not wanting it enough” argument, because its most common home is in business/professional life, where it leads to the most fucked up kind of disasters which make us all deal with the fallout and causes large groups of people who come after to fail no matter how badly they want it.

If you didn’t succeed, it’s because you weren’t willing to run that pyramid scheme/lie to your customers/shut off Grandma Millie’s electricity/screw that neighborhood/target those “mud people”/expose your kids’ classmates to deadly diseases.

Comment #49: Auguste  on  06/09  at  01:17 PM

Catgirl, I’d actually like to hear that story (the anti-vax history).

Comment #50: redwards  on  06/09  at  01:19 PM

When you use the term “allopathic medicine”, it means one of two things:
1. You believe in quack nonsense like homeopathy, or
2. You’re naive enough to be conned by people who do.

As soon as allopathic care gives any attention to prevention, then, and only then, will it deserve to be the only standard in medical care.  Allopathic doctors don’t give a flying fuck about prevention and often completely ignore important clinical data on how to prevent chronic disease, like cancer, diabetes, and heart disease.  If it can’t be cured (or more often managed) with a pill, they don’t want to hear about it.  And, no, it’s not quackery to pay attention to clinical data saying that inflammation is an important cause of chronic disease, to test for it, and to take steps (such as lifestyle changes) to reduce it.

Comment #51: keshmeshi  on  06/09  at  01:19 PM

“Now, I’m not claiming that doctors are perfect, and I’m sure there are some corrupt and greedy ones, but don’t make the mistake that alt-med sellers are somehow innocent of greed. “

I’m not making that claim either and I don’t know why you keep insisting that I am.  I don’t use herbal replacements or even vitamins.  I eat fruit and vegetables the best way I believe, to get those things.

For some reason you take every criticism of the medical profession to be an endorsement of alternative medicine.  There must be a reason for that, but it can’t be found in what I’m writing.

Comment #52: Lady Vader  on  06/09  at  01:20 PM

Do we ever see this sort of Woo Worship in societies with proper access to medical care and insurance?  On this sort of scale?

Some of this is the simple fact that Woo, while snake oil, is really a cheap replacement for actual health care that people cannot afford.

Comment #53: Ms Kate  on  06/09  at  01:24 PM

Anybody remember what happened to Jim Fixx and Yuel Gibbons?

Good.

Comment #54: Ms Kate  on  06/09  at  01:25 PM

Frankly, I am much less willing to pop a pill just cause a doctor gave it to me now.

an anecdote in the other direction… I had a friend who loved his woo… couldn’t get enough of echynachia (where did that “miracle cure” get to anyways?) and pops vitamin C like candy. He also swore by taking willowbark tea for headaches since it was “natural”. Until one day he fainted at work and went to a proper doctor instead of an herbalist (or worse self-diagnosing based on woo books). The result? The detrmined that he had vastly overdosed himself on the equivalent of Aspirin. He didn’t have a good measure of how much of the ASA he had been ingesting since it was from a mom-and-pop-shop home made “herbal blend”, and not only had he managed to overdo it with the painkiller, but it’s also a blood thinner… which likely led to his fainting.

The real kicker? Part of the reason he was taking so much of the willowbark tea was that he had “indegestion”... yup, he had given himself an ulcer… from the copious quantities of willowbark tea he had been drinking… which led to drinking more, which led to a bigger ulcer… and possibly some liver damage…

The doctors were appalled and one of them sat him down and explained that yes, Willowbark tea is a classic ye-olde remedy. And yes, it’s effective. So effective in fact that scientists isolated the effective ingredient (taking away things like the acidity which can be harmful) and determined how much is safe for a human to consume, and how much it takes to be effective… and they put that into helpful little pills which are still sold today… safely, reliably, with fewer side-effects…

But while he changed his tune on Willowbark, he’s still quite convinced of enough other woo that I despair of really getting through to him…

Comment #55: kodiak  on  06/09  at  01:25 PM

“there’s no proof that chemotherapy works, but there is proof that it kills”

Forgive me I have to clear my thyroid ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND? If you want to find people who have been saved thanks to chemotherapy come see ME. Or my colleague who had Hodgkin’s 23 years ago and was cured with chemo. I am sick to death of stupid ideas being given the same credence as actual facts.

As for those who want to stop vaccinating their kids, fine but get them away from my kids.  Go off and form a little community for yourselves and skip vaccinations, it is certainly your choice.

I am a very educated parent and work in the field of special needs and children. I chose not to get one optional vaccine for my child when he was younger because it was right after the rotovirus vaccine had been recalled and I was afraid. Fear is a powerful thing and maybe we need to deal with the underlying fear instead of the woo.

p.s. If you want to see dozens of other people who chemotherapy saved come on by http://www.aftercancernowwhat.com

p.p.s. I’m sick of seeing this stupid “we know chemo kills” statement so if there is a resource for it I’d love to actually read it.

Comment #56: aftercancer  on  06/09  at  01:27 PM

I’m not making that claim either and I don’t know why you keep insisting that I am.  I don’t use herbal replacements or even vitamins.  I eat fruit and vegetables the best way I believe, to get those things.

I’m not insisting that you do it personally.  It’s a very common problem and many people go much farther than you do.

Comment #57: bananacat  on  06/09  at  01:28 PM

I really think that a lot of doctors need to work on their interaction with patients, and that it should be emphasized more in medical school, but that does not mean that the treatments they offer are any less effective.

Catgirl,

Good point. 

As for doctor interaction issues, much of that from what I heard from the numerous doctors who were roommates and neighbors is that the vast majority of medical doctors became so used to being considered the topflight students throughout their lives, especially high school and undergrad and mostly/only associating with other students like themselves that they often lose perspective and gain a “God complex” regarding the patients they treat. 

The fact medical school admissions has gotten so cutthroat competitive that pre-med advisors tell undergrads to not bother applying if their overall GPAs are less than 3.5 and they received grades lower than -A in any of their core Pre-med courses and even pre-med applicants with 3.75s and 3.8 GPAs from places like UC Berkeley often need to apply 4 or more times before gaining admission has only exacerbated this problem.

Comment #58: exholt  on  06/09  at  01:29 PM

Kodiak, I have an aunt like that.  If you saw the inside of her refrigerator you probably couldn’t believe it.  It’s amazing.  She has every supplement, herb, and vitamin known to mankind.  What’s amazing is that she is often sick!  But she still thinks all of this stuff works, so what are you going to do?

I don’t take any of that crap, but I also am not one to run to the pharmacy with my prescription.  If I got diagnosed with high blood pressure or high cholesterol I would make every attempt to lower it first through diet and exercise.  Luckily I have great blood pressure and cholesterol levels, partly because I eat healthy and exercise already.  But also as someone mentioned above, and this is really important, I am very fortunate in my family history.  And some people just can’t lower theirs with diet and exercise.  They have to take the medicine.  I would too, but again, as a last, not first, resort.  That’s all I am saying.

Comment #59: Lady Vader  on  06/09  at  01:34 PM

“It’s your fault for not wanting it/trying hard enough” is American culture’s attempt to deflect attention from the social pyramid, aka class system. It’s a pyramid, kid. The number of people on each successive higher level is smaller than that on the level below.

Stereotypical stay-at-home moms (or moms with insecure, low-paying jobs) are somewhere around the bottom, which is why many of them want to believe in miracles.

Comment #60: sara  on  06/09  at  01:35 PM

Another huge problem with doctor-patient interactions is that there’s just not enough time.  Not enough doctors are going into primary care, and many doctors have to cram in more patients than they want to.  Insurance companies don’t like paying for a double time-slot either.  And then many doctors are reluctant to order tests if a patient is uninsured, or if their insurance just doesn’t feel like paying for that particular test.  It’s a complex issue with many causes, but a bad doctor-patient relationship simply does not validate woo in any way.  My personal advice for a bad doctor is to get a second opinion or see a specialist, but I know that’s not possible for everyone.

Comment #61: bananacat  on  06/09  at  01:39 PM

I’m going to give Hedonistic the benefit of the doubt and assume that she was trying to illustrate my 4 fallacies I outlined, because she hit every one.

I’ve caught the flu.  I eat well. Go figure.

Comment #62: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/09  at  01:44 PM

The doctors were appalled and one of them sat him down and explained that yes, Willowbark tea is a classic ye-olde remedy. And yes, it’s effective. So effective in fact that scientists isolated the effective ingredient (taking away things like the acidity which can be harmful) and determined how much is safe for a human to consume, and how much it takes to be effective… and they put that into helpful little pills which are still sold today… safely, reliably, with fewer side-effects…

That’s what really slays me.  It isn’t well known, but a fair number of pharmacological researchers are quite avid about preserving natural ecosystems like rain forests for purely pragmatic reasons: you never know what new species of plant or animal will have an interesting chemical trick that can be analyzed and then synthesized for use in medicine, so that you need not harvest that animal or plant to get the chemical “naturally”.

As a side note, and although it’s not a life-saving medical treatment, you know who’s been the biggest beneficiaries of Viagra?  Not middle aged-men with a trophy wife or a mistress on the side.  The rhinoceros.  Once Viagra, its clones and ripoffs became well known and readily available, the market for powdered rhino horn, a traditional (and “natural”) treatment for impotence started drying up.

Comment #63: KeithM  on  06/09  at  01:44 PM

And, no, it’s not quackery to pay attention to clinical data saying that inflammation is an important cause of chronic disease, to test for it, and to take steps (such as lifestyle changes) to reduce it.

Inflammation is often a symptom of disease; it’s a sign of the immune system at work.  There are diseases where the immune system goes to work on healthy tissue like rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis.  These diseases are treated with anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressant meds.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.

With respect to cancer, diabetes, and heart disease: what clinical data?  These diseases do not respond to anti-inflammatory treatments.  What lifestyle changes would you recommend for a child with Hodgkin’s lymphoma?  Yoga?  Telling her reflection in the mirror “I am not sick” ten times thrice daily?

To bust out with my own anecdote, I have a ghastly-looking blood lipid profile.  I have always had a ghastly-looking blood lipid profile, even at times when I was not eating meat at all.  For me, lifestyle changes had no effect.  I’m personally disinclined to take a statin to reduce my cholesterol—I have chronic muscle pain and would be unable to tell if it were causing one of the side effects we’re warned about.  I also know that only about one patient in fifty treated with statins see a positive effect on whether they die from heart disease.

Comment #64: kaninchen  on  06/09  at  01:46 PM

I am having some problems with my internet connection, so I will post about the history of the anti-vaccine movement later.

kaninchen,
The actual clinical data show that food does not always play a big factor in cholesterol.  It seems that it has an effect for some people, but not for others.  Still, doctors usually suggest dietary changes because it’s something most people can do and they want to try it out before giving medication.  I just wanted to let you know that you’re not alone there.

Comment #65: bananacat  on  06/09  at  01:54 PM

KeithM - Just because quacks use the expression doesn’t mean only quacks (and their followers) use the expression.  I’ve got science degrees from brand-name universities, did benchwork for a while and now edit science papers for a living, and even I refer to what regular MD clinicians do as “allopathic” medicine sometimes. (I am, however, invariably thrown by the occasional “how dare you call it ‘allopathic’!” response it gets.)

* * *

And keshmeshi? Do you actually know any doctors? Allopathic ones—or what we call “real” doctors?  I’m not saying they’re all saints, but the ones I know not only care about prevention, they actually have the intellectual discipline to discern between clinical data—longitudinal studies and double-blind experiments, with numbers to back things up—and unmitigated bullshit and wishful thinking you see in most other modalities.

. . . often completely ignore important clinical data on how to prevent chronic disease, like cancer, diabetes, and heart disease.

Right. Because you’d never hear an allopath say anything like “lose weight,” “quit smoking,” “eat more produce” or “get some exercise.”  Except, y’know, every goddamn day.

If it can’t be cured (or more often managed) with a pill, they don’t want to hear about it.

Oh yeah, acupuncture and homeopathy work so well.  And those adhesive pads that suck the toxins through the soles of your feet—love those. (I’m surprised McCarthy hasn’t tried them. Probably cheaper than chelation therapy.)

And, no, it’s not quackery to pay attention to clinical data saying that inflammation is an important cause of chronic disease, to test for it, and to take steps (such as lifestyle changes) to reduce it.

No, it’s not. Which is why a lot of REAL docs recommend daily doses of aspirin.

Q. What do they call alternative medicine that’s actually been proven to work?
A. Medicine.

Don’t confuse the medical profession with the pharmaceutical industry.

Comment #66: Molly, NYC  on  06/09  at  01:56 PM

Kodiak - not to critique, but since this is a science-safe comment thread (hooray!)...

Helicobacter pylori generally cause ulcers not stress or diet (though both of those do have the ability to suppress the immune system and make succumbing to the bacteria more likely).

Comment #67: SapphireCate  on  06/09  at  01:58 PM

It is embarrassing that my alma mater, Duke University, had this woman as the graduation speaker.

Comment #68: James  on  06/09  at  01:58 PM

Do you know what homeopathy is?  It’s literally water.  You are paying for a little bottle of water.

Catgirl - Water that’s had some diluted acquaintance with some herb or other substance, which presumably gives it its magic powers.

As others have noticed, all water has, at this point in Earth’s history, passed through some creature’s colon. So homeopaths are offering, inter alia the magic healing powers of poop.

Comment #69: Molly, NYC  on  06/09  at  02:03 PM

I have to jump in here with Caton and point out that the medical industry hasn’t been doing itself any favors in the “are we trustworthy” department. Everyone has their own story, of course, and we won’t have a vax thread with Ms. Kate pointing out what she knows about the history of the chickpox vax, etc.

I’ve been to several doctors to discuss my panic attacks and to a manjack of them, they all just want to toss anti-depressants at me and get me out of the office, pronto. *One* of those lovely pill experiences ended up with me hearing voices telling me to kill myself and me crying on the phone to my mother because I didn’t *want* to kill myself, but the voices said I had to. I was in college at the time, and later found that some students in a drug study of the same pill had unexpectedly commited suicide, even though they were control subjects, not previously depressed ones. Shit like that stays with you. (Incidentally, I control my panic attacks now with distraction and breathing techniques which works better than any pill I’ve tried, but it’s still no picnic. I’m sure, however, that such a course of action could be labelled woo by someone, somewhere.)

I’ve had several nurse friends and family who were deeply concerned with the propensity of the medical industry to just toss out those ‘free samples’ to anyone for anything. And the ‘studies’ supplied to the doctors by the drug companies usually aren’t very complete - they can choose not to report studies that didn’t have the result they liked.

I went to the doctor a while back with a serious stomach acid problem that had been bothering me for years. FIRST thing they wanted to do was medicate me, sedate me completely, and start sending probes in. That was the first step. I said I’d think about it, went home, seriously cut my soda intake (of which I was drinking several a day), and I’ve been fine since then.

So, basically, yeah, I can see why so many people are suspicious of ‘traditional’ medicine. Obviously, many of us are too - consider how many people here do their own research, spread out their kids’ vax based on conversations with their doctors, and so forth. The difference is, I guess, that we do our research based on people with degrees on the subject and as few as possible conflicting biases. And the Oprah audience does their ersearch based on what the celebrities tell them to do. There’s a certain logic there: surely Oprah’s doctor gives her the best care possible, better than what YOUR busy doctor can bother to give, and she can pass that information along to you because she’s your friend. Except, of course, that even if Oprah believes her crap, if the shit hits the fan, she’ll have the money to get the fixes she needs.

Comment #70: Essie Elephant  on  06/09  at  02:08 PM

“scallions are good for posture. See, scallions, they stand up very straight, and when you eat scallions, you’ll stand up straighter yourself.”

MightyPony Girl, did that really happen?!

Comment #71: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/09  at  02:13 PM

Wow, reactionary responses to something I never said!  I said there is no PROOF that chemo works.  That’s NOT the same thing as “chemo doesn’t work.”  Reading comprehension is your friend!

My supervisor is going through prostate cancer right NOW and his own doctors - he has several - are telling him there is no PROOF that chemo works, and that many (I understand a majority of) doctors refuse chemo when they get cancer for this reason alone. The 3% chance - that’s what they say - it will work for them is not worth the horrific side effects, in THEIR informed opinions.  Radiation, on the other hand, is a “maybe.” My boss decided not to get the chemo before or after his prostate surgery.  He’s not made his decision about radiation, but he’s a smart man and I know he’ll make an INFORMED decision.  Fingers crossed. I’m talking real life goings on in my office this week.

As to the allpathic reference, my doctor is an osteopath.  I do make the distinction.

My grandparents adopted the diet advice promulgated by our dear FDA: High carb, cereal-based, low fat, eat margarine instead of butter, blah blah blah etc. etc. Today we know this advice - the whole food pyramid thing in general - was bad and contributes to Type II diabetes.  That’s a far cry from “the government killed my family.”  Then again I never said that, so! Whatever, such amusing strawmen in this comments thread!  Never mind my suggestions to use common sense, question everything and make informed decisions. Guess your eyes skipped over whatever I said that didn’t fit the straw-naturopath in yer heads.

For the record like a good pet I DO have all my shots and my daughter has two of her HPV vaccine series.  However, when the “miracle” ManBirdPig vaccine (H1N1) comes out this fall Just In Time! for a certain company to make A Zillion Bucks! you’d better believe I’m going to cast a jaundiced eye upon any suggestion I run out and get it.  Just throwing it out like a dead rat:  A bad public health policy decision. The “swine flu” vaccine from, what, the 70’s? What a fiasco.

Comment #72: The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker  on  06/09  at  02:13 PM

Naturopathic and holistic health approaches work best as complementary treatments, not replacements.  Smart people mix them up.

That’s so true. See, I bought this magic rock that keeps me from getting sick. But I found it works a lot better when I use as a complementary treatment while still going to the doctor and taking pills, since *IT DOESN’T FUCKING DO ANYTHING*.

Comment #73: BlackBloc  on  06/09  at  02:14 PM

If you lack insurance (or your insurance is a joke that doesn’t actually cover anything), a trip to the local health food store can seem like a good cost-effective alternative to a trip to the doctor. And in some cases, it is.

We cannot ignore the cost barriers to standard medical treatment when we talk about “woo” medicine. A trip to the doctor and a prescription might cost hundreds of dollars for someone with no or inadequate insurance. Extracts from one herb or another might cost $20. Given that, I know which one I’d try first.

As long as our health care is as expensive as it is, we’re going to have these issues. Also, as long as research is driven by the pharmaceutical companies, we’re going to have a scientific approach that is heavily tilted toward the “new” and the patentable. The alternative and “natural” approaches won’t have good research and will continue to be driven by anecdotal evidence.

I really wish we did have more government research that would look objectively at the various supplements because odds are some of them can provide actual benefits at a lower cost. But which ones? In what doses? As long as big pharma is in charge of the research, we won’t really know.

Comment #74: Phoebe Fay  on  06/09  at  02:17 PM

BlackBlock, one could argue that the most dangerous supplements are the ones that actually *do* do something - ephedra is a classic, as is willowbark.

Comment #75: Ms Kate  on  06/09  at  02:19 PM

Oh yeah, acupuncture and homeopathy work so well.

please don’t lump acupuncture in with homeopathy.  It is one of those things that works stunningly well for some people, and not for others (since it hasn’t been researched in controlled groups, there’s no “scientific” basis for it, but again, I have amazing personally witnessed anecdotal evidence).

However, we also need to remember something here—herbal treatments CAN BE very effective, and in countries where studies are allowed, and remedies are regulated by that countries equivalent of the FDA (see Europe (yes, I know “Europe” isn’t a country, it’s just full of the kind I’m talking about) and Canada) they help a great many people.

Take Glucosamine and Chondritin—I have early onset hereditary arthritis in both knees (I’m 34) and the ONLY thing that handles the pain is G&C;supplements.  However, there is only one US brand that consistently contains the amount of G&C;that it claims it does (thanks to consumerlab.com—no, not run by the same people that make it).  however, in other countries, they are regulated (if it says 500mg, it HAS 500mg) and doctors are free to prescribe them because insurance covers them.  Amazingly, studies of them are ALSO funded—not so much here in the US, where funding comes from pharmaceutical and insurance companies.

The “science” for a lot of this does exist, IF people are willing to search for it (and can either speak German or pay to have it translated, LOL).

Comment #76: Siobhan  on  06/09  at  02:20 PM

Amanda,

this was an awesome post. I really enjoyed reading it.

Comment #77: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/09  at  02:20 PM

I think that those are excellent points Phoebe, and that’s exactly why I don’t use supplements.  Because we really don’t know.  Especially regarding dosages. 

Single Payer health care definitely goes a long way to solving many of these issues.

Comment #78: Lady Vader  on  06/09  at  02:21 PM

My supervisor is going through prostate cancer right NOW and his own doctors - he has several - are telling him there is no PROOF that chemo works, and that many (I understand a majority of) doctors refuse chemo when they get cancer for this reason alone. The 3% chance - that’s what they say - it will work for them is not worth the horrific side effects, in THEIR informed opinions.

This is true for prostate cancer.  Chemo is almost never indicated for prostate cancer—sort of.  The most effective treatments for prostate cancer are estrogens and androgen antagonists.  Which are chemicals, so.  The disease progression of prostate cancer is also incredibly slow, to the point where my grandfather, when he was diagnosed a few years ago was told that even if they did nothing he would most likely die with prostate cancer, not from it.  Which doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be treated.  It’s just that for that specific cancer there are excellent treatment options that are not the scary kind of chemotherapy, radiation therapy, or surgery.

But prostate cancer is not like other cancers.  Others feature tumors that grow fast and shed cells a lot; without the sort of chemotherapy that makes your hair fall out people sprout new tumors all over the place and die.  Often people die during chemotherapy.  That doesn’t necessarily mean that the chemo killed them; they were being treated for a disease that kills.  Your blanket assertion that chemotherapy doesn’t work and only kills people based on what you’ve heard about prostate cancer is laughably wrong.

Comment #79: kaninchen  on  06/09  at  02:27 PM

MightyPony Girl, did that really happen?!

Yes. I wish I could offer YouTube proof, but this was a small enough broadcast and long ago enough that I can’t dig it up.

Comment #80: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/09  at  02:30 PM

Yes, Hedonistic, when you say misinformed things in an arrogant tone while implying that people who know more about the subject than you are fools, you’ll get a reaction.  It doesn’t make you right.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/09  at  02:31 PM

I’m really surprised that no one called Hedonistic a troll yet.

Comment #82: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/09  at  02:33 PM

I’ve had a number of friends who’ve tried “alternative medicine”. Almost all of them had an immediate feeling that whatever they went for was improving (the placebo effect), and as it wore on, many of them decided it was not, in fact working. Some did figure it was.

Not all “wholistic practitioners” or “naturopaths” or whatever you want to call it are equal, and some are credentialed from some institutions. Many are not, and many “instituations” are scams. If you’re considering seeing a natural health practitioner, do your research, there’s lots of information about them available.

Personally I think a “real doctor” is a better choice if you have regular access to one, but even in cheery Canada where health-care is pseudo-accessible, a lot of people don’t have family doctors and clinic and hospital doctors are often not very helpful (particularily at walk-in clinics). I have a family doctor and see him whenever I have any kind of health concern, and he’ll talk it over with me, refer me to others if need be, and basically treat my concern seriously. My partner does not have a family doctor, and often has to go to walk-in clinics, where she’s told that she’s worrying about nothing and sent home without tests performed. I think it’s partly because clinics get a lot of hypochondriacs, and partly because you build a relationship with a family doctor. Mine knows that if I have a question, it’s a serious one because I avoid going to the doctor unless I absolutely have to. If I go into a clinic, they don’t know this about me, and they have people lined up out the door waiting to see them.

Comment #83: HonestB  on  06/09  at  02:38 PM

My supervisor is going through prostate cancer right NOW and his own doctors - he has several - are telling him there is no PROOF that chemo works, and that many (I understand a majority of) doctors refuse chemo when they get cancer for this reason alone.

I don’t think you understand the difference between, “Chemotherapy doesn’t work well for the specific cancer that you have” and “Chemotherapy doesn’t work!”

Some cancers respond better to radiation than they do to chemotherapy.  That doesn’t mean that chemotherapy doesn’t work.  It means that it doesn’t work well for those specific cancers.

Comment #84: Mnemosyne  on  06/09  at  02:40 PM

As is the AIDS virus, the Flu virus, and E Coli.

Penicillin is “chemical.”

You’re just making the point!  Penicillin will kill me a whole lot faster than any of those other things, because it’s a chemical.  (Or, ya know, maybe because I have a specific allergy to it - nah, it’s gotta be because it’s a chemical.)

Comment #85: libdevil  on  06/09  at  02:42 PM

As for chemotherapy killing patients… chemo is the cancer solution equivalent of ‘wipe your hard drive, reinstall Windows’. It’s scorched earth policy. It’s “we have a zombie infestation in that town, so let’s nuke it before the infection spreads”.

Cancer is your own cells deciding that they really don’t like you as a person anymore and turning on you. Whatever you take whose entire purpose is to kill your own cells will, unsurprisingly, kill your own cells. Even a bunch of them that aren’t sick.

But for many cancer cases, there’s not exactly an alternative.

Comment #86: BlackBloc  on  06/09  at  02:44 PM

BTW, penicillin isn’t a chemical. It’s a mold. All natural. wink

Comment #87: BlackBloc  on  06/09  at  02:45 PM

Or it comes from mold. In any case, this is central to my point.

Comment #88: BlackBloc  on  06/09  at  02:46 PM

When I was trying to quit smoking about 10 years ago my doctor prescribed what was then a new anti-smoking pill to help me.  It caused me to have a seizure, an incredibly frightening experience.

I have to say, that was some bad doctoring if s/he didn’t tell you that seizures are a well-known side effect of Zyban (aka Wellbutrin, aka bupropion).  It’s contraindicated for anyone prone to seizures, especially heavy drinkers and anorexics/bulimics.

I’ve taken it for several years, on and off, and never had a seizure, so I don’t think you can say that it’s so automatically dangerous that your doctor should never have even prescribed it.  S/he certainly should have told you that it’s a known side effect so you could make an informed choice.

Comment #89: Mnemosyne  on  06/09  at  02:46 PM

I should maybe add, since I don’t think I made this clear, that while I think that naturopathic medicine sometimes works, the people I’ve seen helped by it usually have pretty specific problems. Things like managing chronic illnesses, dealing with food allergies (I know one person who’s seen some of her allergies actually dissapear since she started seeing a naturopath) or Celiac’s disease, and other conditions that are really influenced by nutrition (Bowel Problems, and stuff like that).

You do have to watch out for the snake oil salesmen though, there are plenty out there.

Stuff like using oil of Oregano when you have cold is no different from lozenges - it addresses the symptoms, not the disease. I think a lot of “natural” remedies for actual diseases are in this category - but sometimes managing symptoms is important.

Comment #90: HonestB  on  06/09  at  02:48 PM

(i.e., all your health problems, including your flu? Caused by your fatty fattness!)

Of course, what’s especially frustrating about that is that there are a lot of conditions where overweight is the symptom, not the root cause.  You don’t get PCOS or thyroid problems because you’re overweight, but they certainly can and do cause weight gain.  By ignoring the fact that their patients’ fatness could be a symptom of something else, they’re doing a major disservice to them.

Comment #91: Mnemosyne  on  06/09  at  02:49 PM

But for many cancer cases, there’s not exactly an alternative.

Of course there’s an alternative, BlackBloc!  Sick people can buck up, put on a happy face, and live or die <strike>without bothering the nice healthy people with their whining</strike> with dignity.  Oh, and buy pink shit.

Comment #92: kaninchen  on  06/09  at  02:51 PM

Mnemosyne he did not tell me that at all, and the other thing he did not tell me was that the risk of seizure increased if you have ever had an eating disorder.  Which guess what? 

I eventually quit smoking with the help of the patch, and I have been smoke-free for five years now.  So it wasn’t a runious event, but it was freaking scary!  I never want to have another one I can tell you that.  One important lesson that I did learn is never just take a pill because a doctor gave it to you and they know best.  READ the insert.  I didn’t and that’s on me.  I have read every single one since.

Comment #93: Lady Vader  on  06/09  at  02:51 PM

I think it’s worth noting that a lot of people are confusing “medicine by quacks” with “Natural Medicine”.

For instance, if I note that my chronic back pain is not helped by the Flinstones Kids Morphine that my doctors give me (because then I can’t drive, do my job, be coherent, etc.) but it IS helped (more than by anything else, anyway) by weekly back massages, probably someone will note that my “natural” solution isn’t Natural Medicine because it involved common sense and experimentation and not James Randi-exposed Faith Healers.

Not all “Natural Medicine” is useless, BlackBloc.

Comment #94: Essie Elephant  on  06/09  at  02:55 PM

I eventually quit smoking with the help of the patch, and I have been smoke-free for five years now.

I quit the same way, and haven’t had a cigarette in almost ten years now.  Fuck if I don’t still want one real bad some days.

Comment #95: kaninchen  on  06/09  at  02:56 PM

READ the insert.  I didn’t and that’s on me.  I have read every single one since.

Heh. Whereas I have had one of the really bad side effects for nearly every drug I’ve ever taken, to the point where my doctors have accused me of reading the inset and then making myself sick with those symptoms.

So I give the insets to my mom to read. You know what? I still got the symptoms for all those new drugs they wanted to give me.

Comment #96: Essie Elephant  on  06/09  at  02:57 PM

Oh you mentioned the eating disorder risk, I didn’t even see that.  Sometimes I just gloss over things way too fast.  So it’s interesting that you know that but my doctor didn’t, or if he did, he didn’t feel the need to share it with me.  And I was no longer bulimic when I had the seizure, but the doctors at the hospital told me it didn’t matter.  What raised my seizure risk was that I had ever had an eating disorcer.  But I have to admit, that information was also in the insert warnings that you get from the pharmacy.  I didn’t read it.  Before that happened I thought those “there is a small risk of…” was all bs and only happened to at-risk people whom I pictured as being about 90. 

So I definitely bear some blame here.  But there is no way he shouldn’t have raised the issue with me, come on, eating disorders are fairly common.

Comment #97: Lady Vader  on  06/09  at  02:59 PM

Really Essie, that sucks, becaUse some of them are pretty bad.  I love the voice overs on the tv commercials “in rare cases you may suffer mild nausea…murmor murmor…sudden death”  WTF?

You are probably just really susceptable to some things and have to be really careful.  It does suck though.

Comment #98: Lady Vader  on  06/09  at  03:01 PM

Kind of an amusing pox on both-their-houses story; my husband had read about the effectiveness of pumpkin seed supplements for digestion, so he started taking those. About 6 months later, he broke out in horrible, horrible hives. The doctors (who knew about the supplements) he went to had no idea what to do, threw drugs at him, including some with awful side effects (steroids), nothing helped.

Then a little research by him and his dad turned up the fact that pumpkin seed is full of Vitamin A. And a Vitamin A overdose often results in….horrible horrible hives. He stopped taking it and was better within a few weeks. The hives never came back.

So one mark against the herbal supplement people, and one against clueless doctors (3 of them, I think) who could not put 2+2 together.

Oh, and then there were the docs who told me the side effects the Pill was giving me were all in my head, even though said side effects were not a problem when I was not on the Pill. Good times.

Comment #99: emjaybee  on  06/09  at  03:02 PM

naturopathic medicine sometimes works…[for] conditions that are really influenced by nutrition

If people are more motivated to eat healthily when they pay someone to tell them how to do it, then hooray.  But that’s not medicine.

Comment #100: bomberE  on  06/09  at  03:06 PM

The Medical Establishment has always told women that many things are “all in our minds.”

Comment #101: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/09  at  03:06 PM

Helicobacter pylori generally cause ulcers not stress or diet (though both of those do have the ability to suppress the immune system and make succumbing to the bacteria more likely).

That’s true for many ulcers, but NSAIDs (including aspirin, the active ingredient in willowbark) can cause intestinal and stomach bleeding that can be life-threatening, and ulcers can form from that irritation.  The reason Vioxx was so popular was that it had a greatly lessened effect on the stomach lining, but people ended up getting heart attacks and strokes instead.

Comment #102: Mnemosyne  on  06/09  at  03:06 PM

From the Massachusetts General Hospital pain clinic on Accupuncture: http://www.painmanagementrounds.org/crus/painmgt_07_2005.pdf

Comment #103: Ms Kate  on  06/09  at  03:09 PM

Whereas I have had one of the really bad side effects for nearly every drug I’ve ever taken, to the point where my doctors have accused me of reading the inset and then making myself sick with those symptoms.

Did you know that opiates like Vicodin can cause uncontrollable vomiting after a few days?  Neither did I, until I was standing over the toilet on crutches at 5 am three days after my knee surgery.  I had to make G. get up and run out to buy me an over-the-counter anti-emetic before I did myself any damage.  I do obsessively read the package inserts, but I didn’t notice that one until it was too late.

At least I know I’ll never get addicted to Vicodin, right?  wink

Comment #104: Mnemosyne  on  06/09  at  03:14 PM

“I really wish we did have more government research that would look objectively at the various supplements because odds are some of them can provide actual benefits at a lower cost.”

What’s really <strike>fucked up</strike> awesome is when studies start showing that supplement x is actually effective at treating something and has practically zilch in the way of unwanted side effects, and the industry response is to make noise about it needing to be prescription-only, on account of it actually working and stuff.

Comment #105: preying mantis  on  06/09  at  03:25 PM

I’ve caught the flu.  I eat well. Go figure.

If you’d polish the DiscoBall more often or sacrifice the occassional Bee Gees record, that might help.

Comment #106: Magis  on  06/09  at  03:28 PM

there’s no proof that chemotherapy works

WHA?? I know a few people that are alive today because of chemo. Where the fuck are you getting your information??

Comment #107: slingshot  on  06/09  at  03:31 PM

http://www.painmanagementrounds.org/crus/painmgt_07_2005.pdf

A number of the papers cited in this article come from sponsored journals, such as this one: http://www.jtcm.com/

A journal sponsored by proponents of acupuncture publishes results favorable to acupuncture.  No.Way.

Comment #108: bomberE  on  06/09  at  03:34 PM

Did you know that opiates like Vicodin can cause uncontrollable vomiting after a few days?

I did!  This is not at all an uncommon side effect.  I’m sorry you had such a bad experience with it.  Fortunately it’s not one I suffer.  Which is good ‘cos I take lots of the stuff.  It’s a tossup as to whether I’m addicted or dependent; either way running out is a bad thing.

Fortunately I have been saved by Congress and the ONDCP from having to use cannabis.  What a relief to know that it has no medical use, because phew!  Otherwise I might be on drugs or something.

Comment #109: kaninchen  on  06/09  at  03:38 PM

Mnemosyne, I learned that opiates will make me hurl when I had my wisdom teeth removed and ended up with a dry socket, for which I was prescribed percocet.  Hives too!  I also found out that Ibuprofen works as good as any of it for me!

Comment #110: Ms Kate  on  06/09  at  03:44 PM

Emmett, some body asked about accupuncture and controlled trials.  I think the article goes over the evidence and non-evidence quite well, aside from what you would call a “sponsored journal”.  This is from a major national hospital, mind you - not some journal of woo.

Comment #111: Ms Kate  on  06/09  at  03:47 PM

Oh, and I wasn’t aware that the twenty-odd peer reviewed journals cited at the end of the article were “sponsored journals” ... like the respected neuroscience and pain journals.  Oh, but only one mention of an ethnocentric journal means that a whole lot of science becomes woo, okay.

Comment #112: Ms Kate  on  06/09  at  03:49 PM

Here’s the thing: I like the woo I like. I know my brain is receptive to suggestion; I also know that I’m fully capable of acting on an unproven suspicion of a connection (eating greens makes me feel more energetic because vitamins) when the real scientific connections (eating greens lowers my statistical chances of some health problems decades from now because vitamins) is unmotivating. If sitting around with crystals balanced on my chakras made my back pain feel better (because, you know, laying flat on a firm surface with your knees up is pretty obviously helpful) I would do it, and screw the indignity or complete lack of science. I’m superstitious. I like woo. It’s the Granny Weatherwax school of public health.

I just think the line in the sand needs to be far, far short of “and then we tried to treat this child’s life-threatening disease with mint tea”, or “this physically dangerous ‘therapy’ was something that ‘worked’ for my friend so I’m going to also put myself in danger”. Doing scientifically pointless soothing things because humans are ritual animals and besides herbs smell nice is a wonderful human complement to intellectually-rigorous pursuits of provable cures. It is not a replacement.

I do want to say that if you ask someone ten times over why they refused something like statin drugs or antibiotics for a treatable infection, sometimes the first eight answers are woo and the ninth is “I can’t afford statin drugs”.

Comment #113: purpleshoes  on  06/09  at  03:52 PM

BTW, penicillin isn’t a chemical. It’s a mold. All natural.

LOL!  Not anymore—just like aspirin & willowbark, the active ingredient in Mold is now 100% synthesized into handy little pills for your consumption.

As are many, many, many “chemical” medications.  You can say they are natural or chemical, depending on whether you look at where they were originally found, or where they come from now.

Comment #114: Siobhan  on  06/09  at  03:55 PM

Did you know that opiates like Vicodin can cause uncontrollable vomiting after a few days?

This is lighting fast physical dependence, which happens in a lot of people—and is different from addiction (speaking as a recovering addict/alcoholic).  I can take (prescribed) opiates for a day or two, and if I don’t take them on day 3 or miss on because I don’t need it, I get all the symptoms of full-fledged withdrawal.  Yay.

Comment #115: Siobhan  on  06/09  at  03:57 PM

Re: acupuncture.

I’m glad to see (finally) some controlled studies on it.  It was worked for me to an unbelievable degree when nothing else did, and I have seen things that are nothing short of miraculous in others.

On the other hand, I know people who have gone and it’s had no effect.  *shrug* everybody is different—which is why some drugs cause horrible allergic attacks in some people and not in others.

Comment #116: Siobhan  on  06/09  at  03:59 PM

I’m sorry, but this is about the MOST RIDICULOUS thing I’ve ever seen:

But Northrup believes thyroid problems can also be the result of something else. As she explains in her book, “in many women, thyroid dysfunction develops because of an energy blockage in the throat region, the result of a lifetime of ‘swallowing’ words one is aching to say.”

I’m pretty sure that my thyroid problems were caused by my defective thyroid.  I mean, I’ve only been on thyroid supplements for nearly 20 years, and I only got the whole damn cancer-ridden thing out a year ago, but what do I know?

I have trouble like anyone else with prescription drugs, and am in an ongoing fight with my endicrinologist because I’d like to be back on the Armour thyroid (made from real pig!) and she wants me to stay on the Synthroid (now with more hair loss!), but there’s no way I can give up my hormones and live a normal life.  But is taking a daily hormone replacement pill natural?  Only if I take Pig-friend?

Of course, I’m not giving up my daily beta-blockers for my tachycardia, or my aspirin for my clotting problems either way.  I think people who are super crazy anti-drug are mostly just people who’ve never had a chronic problem.

Comment #117: Mimi  on  06/09  at  03:59 PM

Wow, woo lives even here.

Comment #118: Punditus Maximus  on  06/09  at  04:01 PM

As long as our health care is as expensive as it is, we’re going to have these issues.

I wish that were the case, but I don’t think the evidence supports that.  England has one of the worst problems in terms of woo medicine.  Homeopaths are everywhere, ripping people off.  And they have national health care, so it’s not like they’re going to homeopaths out of desperation because they can’t afford doctors.

Comment #119: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/09  at  04:03 PM

Siobhan, any chance you’re willing to share the glucosamine secret? Because I have shamefully bad knees for a person in her twenties, but I know most glucosamine supplements are in fact a ripoff.

Comment #120: purpleshoes  on  06/09  at  04:05 PM

Not all “Natural Medicine” is useless, BlackBloc.

All Natural Medicine is useful. That’s because ALL MEDICINE is Natural Medicine.

It’s Supernatural Medicine I have an issue with. wink

Comment #121: BlackBloc  on  06/09  at  04:16 PM

Em: To be somewhat fair to doctors on the issue of the Pill, there is a TON of evidence to show that because the Pill is an emotionally loaded drug, women do blame unrelated issues on them. Namely, double blind studies have proven that the side effect women fear the most—-weight gain—-has no relationship to the Pill.

But these fears are unfounded, Grimes and his colleagues argue. They compiled the results of 44 studies carried out over the past few years that examined the effects of contraceptive pills and patches. As they report in The Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews, they found no evidence that beginning to use the pill leads to any jump in weight gain…...

But Grimes and his colleagues’ data suggest that this supposed ‘cause and effect’ is merely anecdotal, and that patterns of weight gain among new pill users are no different to those seen in the population at large.

“The most logical explanation is that all of us, men and women, gain weight with age,” says Grimes. The average American, for example, gains about one pound (0.45 kilograms) every year, he says. But most people seek out something to blame for this other than their personal behaviour, he adds.

Why do women blame the Pill for weight gain, when it could have been any other arbitrary thing they wanted to blame (including bundling up your feelings inside)?  Probably because of the psychosexual associations between sex, food, and weight that are so built up in Americans. 

The point is that of course doctors should have an exquisite bedside manner and never, ever hurt someone’s feelings or scoff at people’s ideas.  But I also understand that it’s hard to be perfect, and it’s especially hard never to tell people that something’s in their head when you see people day in and out who are suffering from side effects that are unrelated to the medication and/or in their head.

I’m incredibly grateful to a doctor who told me, after they tested me for urinary tract infection of course, that the pain I felt was probably nothing and to just see if it went away. It did!  It wasn’t in my head, exactly—-I probably had bruised myself slightly—-but I had mentally amplified the pain because I’ve had UTIs before and I’m so paranoid about them coming back because they hurt so bad that I overreacted to what was, in retrospect, a minor amount of pain.

Comment #122: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/09  at  04:19 PM

some body asked about accupuncture and controlled trials.  I think the article goes over the evidence and non-evidence quite well

The doctor who wrote the article practices acupuncture.  Why not get analysis of studies from someone who hasn’t bought into the sham?  Don’t be put off by the tone—the analysis is sound.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/05/another_acupuncture_study_misinterpreted.php
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/01/can_we_finally_just_say_that_acupuncture.php
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/12/yet_another_acupuncture_metaanalysis_gar.php
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/10/yawn_another_worthless_acupuncti_mean_ac.php
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/09/yawn_yet_another_worthless_acupuncture_s.php
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/09/acupuncture_and_polycystic_ovary_disease.php
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/08/the_largest_randomized_acupuncture_study.php
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/04/finally_nccam_actually_funds_some_worthw.php

Conclusion?  “Real” acupuncture is as effective as random needle sticks and placebos.  And two of those posts discuss meta-analyses.

This is from a major national hospital
That doesn’t really count for much:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/04/homeopaths_and_naturopaths_and_cam_oh_my.php
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/06/the_infiltration_of_woo_into_medical_aca.php

only one mention of an ethnocentric journal means that a whole lot of science becomes woo, okay.
The Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine is a woo journal and a laughingstock.  If you want to take seriously someone who cites it, okay.

Comment #123: bomberE  on  06/09  at  04:19 PM

Again, I’m not suggesting doctors haven’t told patients that something was in their head that wasn’t.  But I think more understanding all around would be easier to reach if we accepted that lots of people come to doctors with symptoms that are in their head, for often sympathetic reasons.

Comment #124: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/09  at  04:21 PM

The problem with finding solutions to chronic pain, like chronic backpain for instance, is that such chronic pains are always fluctuating, and you’re looking for relief when your pain is becoming unbearable (i.e. at its peak), and what usually, statistically, follows a peak no matter what you do? A valley.

Note that that critique is good for the medicinal painkillers as well. It’s hard to evaluate if something is actually working when you would suspect the pain to recede anyway even if you did nothing.

(It also works for the economy BTW. I don’t want to take any credit away from Bush, or Obama, but when things peak you expect them to fall and vice versa anyway. Especially if the peak in question was driven by unsustainable credit practices.)

Comment #125: BlackBloc  on  06/09  at  04:22 PM

One thing that always vexes me about proponents of any sort of health or medical treatment regimen is the way that zealotry creeps its way into the conversation.  What may work for one individual doesn’t work for another - and yet it’s often proposed as the ONLY solution for a given problem. 

Speaking only to my own experience, for whatever reason I metabolize anesthetics extremely quickly.  Root canals are fun - the dentist has to pause every 3-4 minutes to pump me full of another syringe of Novocain or I’m on the verge of jumping out of the chair and stabbing the poor fellow in the eyes with those little metal picks.  Other people, of course, get one shot of Novocain and are numb for an entire day.  On the other hand, once the surgery’s done I’m fine - I toss the bottle of Vicodin or whatever into the trash and merrily go on my way.

In an ideal world each person would be offered a spectrum of options with the freedom to choose the best course from the menu…but the “my way or the highway” diktat of current medical practices sometimes can push people into anti-Scientism and anti-Medical opinions because, of course, the path chosen for them without their input leads nowhere.  I remember a particular incident where I was getting an Endoscopy and I repeatedly warned every single nurse and doctor I met that the anesthetics wouldn’t work on me - and they, of course, ignored me.  I woke up to full consciousness in the middle of having a camera down my throat - and the sedatives didn’t make me forget the whole damn procedure like they promised - and I remember the anesthesiologist scrambling around to dose me up further as I thrashed around on the table.  Score one more point for “doctors know best, patients are cute little idiots who should just shut up and take it.”  Mind you, the whole experience has made me wonder more than once that perhaps a little esophageal cancer might not be such a bad thing after all.

The point?  Woo medicine is, of course, founded on equal parts self-delusion and wistful hope, but one shouldn’t forget the input of seemingly uncaring medical professionals and invasive (and ultimately useless) treatments which don’t involve any input from the patients themselves.

Comment #126: tannenburg  on  06/09  at  04:28 PM

I wish that were the case, but I don’t think the evidence supports that.  England has one of the worst problems in terms of woo medicine.  Homeopaths are everywhere, ripping people off.  And they have national health care, so it’s not like they’re going to homeopaths out of desperation because they can’t afford doctors.

I suspect it’s something else, actually. From what I remember, British NHS is a lot like Kaiser Permanente here in the US. You get generally good doctoring and medical outcomes, but there are dramatic exceptions, and you’re consistently treated as a peripatetic case file. When you’re being shuffled about by a system with the collective bedside manner of a tax audit, con artists can initially seem like a better alternative. After all, quacks are usually wonderful at being empathic, friendly-seeming people. That’s how a con works.

Comment #127: Llelldorin  on  06/09  at  04:30 PM

Doctors not properly explaining side effects is a problem in pretty much everything—I became depressed and suicidal on the wrong batch of birth control pills, my gyno had never warned me it was a possible side effect, my psychiatrist never even asked about the birth control pills, and I took Paxil and then Prozac for months before figuring out on my own it was the BC pills and changing to another formulation.

On the other hand, quitting BC pills to use non-hormonal remedies like condoms (which my husband experiences a 30% breakage rate with, and no, that’s not a typo) would have gotten me pregnant about six years earlier than I was financially or emotionally ready for it, which undoubtedly would not have improved my mood any. Fortunately for me I think about things like a scientist. There are ten zillion different kinds of birth control pills and one doesn’t work for me? Try more until I find one that does! Other people, with the same experience, might try condoms. Or the rhythm method. Or douching with lemon juice. My lack of getting pregnant until I wanted to get pregnant suggests that my method worked better, but of course anecdote is not the singular of data.

I’m a little surprised that attitude has no effect in cancer, because in general, believing that you have no hope and you’re going to die has such generally deleterious effects on human health you’d think that facing cancer with the belief that you’re not going to make it would certainly have effects that should kill you faster. We have to test drugs blind for a reason; the placebo effect actually accounts for about 80% of the work done by antidepressants, for instance, and even a significant amount of the work done by painkillers. But I certainly do not and have never believed that anyone can beat cancer just by wanting to; what I believed was that the belief that you *cannot* win will pretty much ensure that you won’t, whereas believing that you will win gives you a fighting chance. Interesting to learn that that doesn’t seem to be the case.

Comment #128: Alara J Rogers  on  06/09  at  04:31 PM

Emmett, are you also saying that scienceblogs doesn’t have an agenda that might blind them?  I work in science and I am a scientist - so I am damn well aware of how selection bias can affect a blogger’s perspective if it can affect an NAS panel!

Start citing peer reviewed literature, not blogs, and I will pay attention.  The article I cited did cite both “woo” as you would define it, but you are ignoring all the peer reviewed work that is also cited there.  How convenient.

Comment #129: Ms Kate  on  06/09  at  04:32 PM

“Woo medicine is, of course, founded on equal parts self-delusion and wistful hope”

I’d add a large dollop of “fear” to that recipe, tannenburg.  Cancer wouldn’t seem nearly so scary if we could just eat a few herbs and be cured.  The temptation to believe in those cures can be mighty strong when we’re faced with something like cancer.  It can play in so well with our denial.

It’s a harsh cold smack of reality when we find out how drastic our treatment for cancer will be.  There’s no denying the seriousness of the disease when the treatment damn near kills us.

Comment #130: BadKitty  on  06/09  at  04:39 PM

If you would have bothered to look at the links, Ms Kate the Scientist, you would see that every post contains a direct link to the literature discussed therein.  I am not ignoring the decent journals cited by your article, but it’s faster to point to analyses of other peer-reviewed studies when I’m not already familiar with the ones in your article.  And I think it calls the author’s judgement into question that she would cite a woo journal.  If I walk into my doctor’s office and see homeopathy bottles next to the penicillin, I’m walking right out again.

Comment #131: bomberE  on  06/09  at  04:45 PM

Also, ScienceBlogs has a clearly stated agenda.  It just happens to be reality-based, unlike acupuncture.

Comment #132: bomberE  on  06/09  at  04:46 PM

Emmett, some body asked about accupuncture and controlled trials.  I think the article goes over the evidence and non-evidence quite well, aside from what you would call a “sponsored journal”.  This is from a major national hospital, mind you - not some journal of woo.

One of the reason why there has not been enough comprehensive and scientific studies on acupuncture has been the continuing strong Western-centric ethnocentric bias against healing practices from the non-Western world along with the strong biases in the medical establishment against any healing/medical practices which doesn’t toss brand-name drugs at the problem. 

It is more amusing to hear this considering that prominent medical schools such as Columbia have held conferences and even seminars for medical students on it according to friends/acquaintances who have taught or graduated from there.

Comment #133: exholt  on  06/09  at  04:48 PM

had mentally amplified the pain because I’ve had UTIs before and I’m so paranoid about them coming back because they hurt so bad that I overreacted to what was, in retrospect, a minor amount of pain.

Amanda, I’ve done that—once you’ve had one, the idea that pain will come back is TERRIFYING.  But this goes to having a good relationship with your doctor—knowing they listen and so being able to trust them when they say “THIS time you’re worried about nothing.”

I recently fired a doctor over a UTI—well, the UTI was the last straw.  She took one look at my history the first day, saw that I was an alcoholic (recovering) and on anti-depressants (which WORK for me) and assumed I was constantly lying to her.  When I went in for a real UTI, she treated me like I was making it all up to scam antibiotics off of her.  I have had the fortune to have had good doctors—so when I got his kind of shit, I said goodbye.

Comment #134: Siobhan  on  06/09  at  04:57 PM

One of the reason why there has not been enough comprehensive and scientific studies on acupuncture has been the continuing strong Western-centric ethnocentric bias against healing practices from the non-Western world along with the strong biases in the medical establishment against any healing/medical practices which doesn’t toss brand-name drugs at the problem.

Enmeshment with the pharmaceutical industry is a big problem, but it is quite separate from acupuncture’s poor reputation.  Traditional and alternative medicines have always been studied.  See: massage and every drug that ever came from a plant.  As was noted upthread, when alternative medicine works, it simply becomes medicine.  There is not a lack of funding for acupuncture studies, in fact, there is a national body in the US set up solely to study alternative therapies (NCCAM).  Acupuncture is not accepted b/c the studies say it works no better than a placebo.

Comment #135: bomberE  on  06/09  at  04:58 PM

I’m a little surprised that attitude has no effect in cancer, because in general, believing that you have no hope and you’re going to die has such generally deleterious effects on human health you’d think that facing cancer with the belief that you’re not going to make it would certainly have effects that should kill you faster.

  That’s what I was trying to say earlier, Alara, but I think I failed miserably.  I’m a cancer survivor and heard all the bullshit about being positive and perky amd I do not believe that positive thinking will affect your diagnosis.  Where I do think it makes a difference is in how we as the patient approach our care.  A fierce determination and being an assertive partner in your health won’t necessarily save your life.  But fear, denial and/or a passive approach to your care could make your prognosis a lot worse and could indeed kill you. 

Please note that I am not saying that a happy smile can turn around Stage 4 cancer - if it did my friend would still be alive. She was a fighter and determined to survive for her little girls but nothing could stop her very aggressive breast cancer.  As an extreme example of fear and passivity killing you:  Another friend’s mother was so afraid of cancer and chemotherapy that she didn’t seek medical help until her breast tumor had burst through the skin of her chest and her daughter saw it through her blouse.  She had no hope of survival at that point which just reinforced her belief that cancer was a death sentence.

Comment #136: BadKitty  on  06/09  at  04:59 PM

One of the reason why there has not been enough comprehensive and scientific studies on acupuncture has been the continuing strong Western-centric ethnocentric bias against healing practices from the non-Western world along with the strong biases in the medical establishment against any healing/medical practices which doesn’t toss brand-name drugs at the problem.

Or, you know, because it’s bunk. They don’t do a lot of research on French Canadian folk remedies either. Because they’re bunk. And if some woo headed pseudo-progressives were trying to push mustard cataplasm as ‘traditional French Canadian medicine’ in some other country, I’d feel pretty fucking insulted. We have actual doctors here, and so does China.

Comment #137: BlackBloc  on  06/09  at  04:59 PM

any chance you’re willing to share the glucosamine secret?

Absolutely, I just didn’t want to sound like a shill.  Osteo Bi-Flex is the brand I use—give it about three weeks to really kick in, and make sure you take it with food.  I take what they recommend—3 pills once a day, and I make sure I don’t take it with my other meds—taking it with the Lexapro makes me queasy.

I’ve also found when I STOP taking it, it takes a good month to lose all the benefits.  Which is nice to have that cushion.

Comment #138: Siobhan  on  06/09  at  05:00 PM

Siobhan, would you mind sharing your source for that info?  That brand happens to be twice the price of all the others.  I know the bottle says “#1 Doctor Recommended Brand”, but it’s always sounded too much like a toothpaste endorsement for me to drop the extra cash.

Comment #139: bomberE  on  06/09  at  05:06 PM

One of the big problems with doing research on acupuncture is the the supposed underpinnings of it (energy meridians, chi, liver etc) are pretty much bunk. On the other hand, there pretty clear is some kind of interesting effect going on, and most of the people who have been subjected report serious differences between stabbing at canonical points and elsewhere. Like surgery, you can’t do double-blind or even single-blind…

Comment #140: paul  on  06/09  at  05:10 PM

Or, you know, because it’s bunk.

I’ll say it again, it works for some people. 

The same way herbal remedies, WHEN regulated and studied, work for some people, but not all.  Part of the reason?  I plant plant A here.  It has 23,000 chemicals in its make-up, with ONE being relevant to the disease/condition it is treating.  I plant plant B there.  The 23,000 chemicals are still there, but in different make-up because of time of year/soil composition/Plant A is stealing nutrients/whatever.

I try plant A on person A with metabolism A.  I try plant B on person B with metabolism B.  I get no conclusive results, ergo it doesn’t work.  Now try isolating chemical A and trying it on 50,000 people, and you have an actual study.  This is what they’ve done in Europe.  The pharms don’t like this because now people are spending money on supplements instead of slightly different variations of their drug that they can keep repatenting to keep non-generic. 

Going back a few years, take a look at US studies vs. Canadian studies on the efficacy of using LSD to treat addiction.  Canadian doctors put patients in a soothing environment, gave them small doses, sat with them during their trip, played music, walked outside, kept them company, etc., and had very positive reults.  US doctors, ten years later, injected patients with FIVE TIMES what the Canadian doctors gave, chained them to a cot in a mental institution cell, and left them there while they went bugnuts.  US then said LSD had no medical use.

Folk remedies are worth investigating to see if there is a basis.  After all, an old english folk remedy for fever was to eat a piece of moldy bread.  It only took 500 years for us to find out the why behind that.

Comment #141: Siobhan  on  06/09  at  05:11 PM

I am an alternative medicine provider; I do hypnotherapy (I also work in traditional health care as an RN). It’s an adjunct, though, and not a stand-alone therapy.  There’ve been a few studies which seem to indicate it’s effective, and a few that seem to indicate it isn’t. I think it’d be damn hard to design a decent study using hypnotherapy.

All I know is that after I’ve hypnotized a kid for fear of needles, I can usually get a tearless blood draw (I’ve used it for other things, but that’s my favorite). Since I work with chronically ill children, my colleagues are thrilled.

Comment #142: Alix  on  06/09  at  05:12 PM

When I was struggling with infertility I made the mistake of reading one of Christine Northrup’s books. It totally messed with my head. I was already in the beating-myself-up phase and her book made me feel like even more of a failure, not just as a biological woman but as a human being. According to the book, all of my physical problems impeding pregnancy were caused by emotional problems. It was all in my head. Nice. You know what worked? Not adjusting my attitude. My doctor put me on medication. I now have two kids.

Comment #143: Burning Prairie  on  06/09  at  05:13 PM

Siobhan, would you mind sharing your source for that info? 

I’m trying to re-find it—there was a site about 5 years ago that was sort of a “Consumer Reports” for non-regulated supplements.  I thought it was consumerlabs.com, but I just went there and I remember it being free, now there’s a subscription (these things are not mutually exclusive, it might have started as free and now charges money). 

At any road, it IS pricey—and having tried many, many of them, always giving them the full 4 weeks to work, it’s the only one that has.  I was fortunate enough for a while to have a flex-pay plan at work that my company donated into, and that plan covered it—I no longer work for that company, and can no longer afford it.  It can be found cheaper on the internet, but not that cheap.  Once I get through my spinal surgery and recovering from surgery and get back to working full-time I’ll go on it again.

Comment #144: Siobhan  on  06/09  at  05:28 PM

Burning Prairie, the “blame the woman” approach to infertility can also lead to missed diagnoses of PCOS and more subtle things like my colleague’s gluten allergy.  Somehow, for her, getting her autoimmune responses to gluten under control resolved her poor attitude problems ... er ... inability to conceive due to her immune system being totally and silently co-opted.

Heck, celiac disease is something that responds to diet even.

Comment #145: Ms Kate  on  06/09  at  05:28 PM

We have actual doctors here, and so does China.

And most of those actual Chinese doctors in the last 20 odd years either use it as a part of their practice and/or take the practice very seriously because it has had a long history of good medical outcomes.  If any of those doctors hear you referring to acupuncture as “woo”....they’ll just dismiss you as another “ignorant Westerner” who spouts off about practices s(he) knows little/nothing about. 

Another major reason why there has not been comprehensive scientific studies until quite recently was the effects of Western Colonialism within China during the latter 19th/early 20th century which culminated in several elite-driven social movements who felt the only way to modernize China was to uncritically adopt all-things-Western and to toss out all things Chinese….which tossed out the baby with the bathwater. 

One effect of this was the fact much accumulated knowledge by acupuncture practitioners within China were lost due to social-elite abandonment and even persecutions of its practitioners…especially during the Maoist era.  In Hong Kong and Taiwan, strong desires by the socio-political elite to be “modern”(read: Western) meant that such practices were socially discouraged until the younger generations realized such “uncritically aping the Westerners” attitudes among their parents/grandparents generations was total BS.

Comment #146: exholt  on  06/09  at  05:30 PM

Amanda, at the risk of TMI, that wasn’t my side effect. Think constant severe PMS (which I had never had before) with a helping of horrible yeast infection (ditto), every single day, that would not clear up, except for the 7-day “dummy pill” stretch. We tried several prescriptions, my body just wasn’t playing along. But thankfully, there are non-hormonal methods, and they’ve worked for us for 10 years so far (knock wood—heh!). The doc kept implying I was exaggerating and prescribing more pills for my infection/symptoms, and it never got better, and it was sheer misery. Until I switched to non-hormonal, and bingo. Happy me, happy partner. No extra babies.

Comment #147: emjaybee  on  06/09  at  05:36 PM

My opiate-after-wisdom tooth removal experience was that Tylenol with codeine kept my bowels from moving for three days. To top it off, it killed my pain no better than plain Tylenol. 

And if some woo headed pseudo-progressives were trying to push mustard cataplasm as ‘traditional French Canadian medicine’ in some other country, I’d feel pretty fucking insulted. We have actual doctors here, and so does China.

Every Asian grocery has medicated plasters, some from China. A Filipina I worked with swore by White Flower Oil, and the first fortune made in Singapore came from Tiger Balm.

http://www.veryasia.com/patches.html

Comment #148: Hector B.  on  06/09  at  05:44 PM

FWIW I’m not ignoring the multiple questions I received about the “no proof” statement I made upthread about chemo. As several commenters have pointed out, most authoritative work on the matter is cancer-specific.  The last time a comprehensive literature study was done on (multiple) cancers was published several years ago (JAMA, April 1989, author: Ulrich Abel, a German doctor), and supports my no-proof assertion.  If something more recent (and equally authoritative) proves me wrong or qualifies its conclusions in some meaningful way, that actually make me happy because it means more people can be helped, yes?  My ego is not THAT invested in being right, but for the time being I stand by my statement, which granted is my opinion.  An informed one IMHO.

Also, my first comment began with a statement of how either/or stances exasperate me, but they also kind of bore me.  Calling cards of political gatekeepers and zealots.  I haven’t seen a single comment of this thread that advocates the abandonment of traditional medicine in favor of “woo,” so why the jumpy reactions? 

Complementary medicine is embraced by many in conventional medicine. NIMH has a department devoted to it and so does, I believe, the Mayo Clinic. I ended up with my Osteopath by a fluke: Blue Cross recommended her to me, and I thought, woman, yay.  My neurologist, also recommended by Blue Cross, another woman (I was going through a phase where gender mattered to me). Turns out she’s also certified as an acupuncturist and swears by it (tried it, ouch, forget it).  By some fluke I ended up with a (world) renowned laser specialist for a derm and he swears by colloidal silver and simple citric acid exfoliants, go figure.

As for her Oprah-ness? Don’t have TV.  Anyone who gets his or her advice from a talk show (about anything) gets a raised eyebrow from me.  Besides, I heard through the grapevine that Oprah has fallen from media establishment favor, I hear Angelina Jolie is the go to woman these days.  Does she have a show?

Comment #149: The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker  on  06/09  at  05:47 PM

I’ll say it again, it works for some people. 

EVERYTHING works for some people, including doing nothing.  Bunk is no exception, and it doesn’t mean it ain’t equivalent to a whole lot of very expensive nothing.

Comment #150: Gavel Down  on  06/09  at  05:54 PM

*sigh* Looks like it’s the standard way these threads go. “Sure, there’s a lot of woo, but my woo is not woo.”

Comment #151: BlackBloc  on  06/09  at  06:00 PM

Oh, and about “It works for some people”: A month back, online poker, I go all in on the turn with a small pocket pair with two overcards on the board, get called with someone who had paired with top pair. It was a bad play even if I caught my card on the river. It didn’t just “work for me”.

Comment #152: BlackBloc  on  06/09  at  06:04 PM

Hedonistic, now you’ve gone from just being wrong to suspicion of getting off on the attention that comes with it.

Comment #153: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/09  at  06:04 PM

*sigh* Looks like it’s the standard way these threads go. “Sure, there’s a lot of woo, but my woo is not woo.”

And despite the evidence presented in this thread, some people will never believe in what they don’t want to.

Interesting side-note:  Ayn Rand, the mother of objectivism, the bastion of “look at the science and proceed from there, damn you!” refused to believe cigarettes caused cancer, even after she got and died from lung cancer (ok, I guess right up until the moment before she died from lung cancer).  Why?  She loved smoking.

We all have our biases, as well.

Comment #154: Siobhan  on  06/09  at  06:07 PM

The NIH has an entire Institute devoted to woo:

http://nccam.nih.gov/

That doesn’t make it any less a total load of fucking horseshit. I wonder how Oprah and her merry band of blithering fuckwit “experts” sleep at night knowing that their actions are directly responsible for needless human misery and death.

Comment #155: PhysioProf  on  06/09  at  06:07 PM

em, I don’t doubt you at all. I’m just pointing out that people do tend to take it personally when a doctor (or any specialist) goes with the most likely cause of the problem, which is the person themselves.  IT people get it, too—-most computer errors are user-based, but people who are having computer problems don’t want to hear that.  So they get angry, the IT guy gets annoyed, and on the rare occasion that it is the computer and not the user, the user feels vindicated, as if they proved the IT guy wrong.  They didn’t.  The method is go for the most common explanation, and then move on after you’ve eliminated that.

I think if people could refrain from taking it personally, it would help calm some of the antagonism against doctors.  I took it personally when a doctor tested me for an STD when I came in complaining of pain, because she said that just because I was sure my boyfriend was faithful doesn’t mean she has to be sure.  She was wrong, I was right, but in retrospect, I see her point of view.  95% of the women who come in with STD symptoms that swear by their boyfriends fidelities are probably proven the fool, and so why should she think I was the exception?

Comment #156: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/09  at  06:10 PM

The last time a comprehensive literature study was done on (multiple) cancers was published several years ago (JAMA, April 1989, author: Ulrich Abel, a German doctor), and supports my no-proof assertion

The difference between chemo in 1989 and chemo in 2009 is comparable to the difference in moon rockets in 1949 and moon rockets in 1969—when we actually went to the moon.

Comment #157: Hector B.  on  06/09  at  06:11 PM

Wait, so now moon rockets cause cancer?

</silliness>

Comment #158: tannenburg  on  06/09  at  06:17 PM

The last time a comprehensive literature study was done on (multiple) cancers was published several years ago (JAMA, April 1989, author: Ulrich Abel, a German doctor), and supports my no-proof assertion

Why would a chemo study on muliple disparate cancers be the definitive one? Wouldn’t the scads published since then on the efficacy of chemo (which is not, to my understanding, a monolithic treatment, but instead one tailored to the needs of the patient and situation) on various cancers not be more convincing, particularily if they have not been countered in any peer reviewed journals?

I don’t get it, one large compedium study from 20 years ago = the ultimate difinitive word? And you’re pooh poohing us as hewing too closely to some nebulous dogma?

Comment #159: kodiak  on  06/09  at  06:18 PM

Osteopaths are, for all intents and purposes, real doctors: a D.O. is simply a degree that allows its holders to apply to and take part in medical residency programs. An internist who has a D.O. is going to treat you using the same experience he has as your internist with an M.D. and likely prescribe the same medicine. A D.O. who manages to get a surgical residency is going to do his surgery the same as the M.D. would, and so on. They might have some personal beliefs and have taken some classes involving things like alignment of the bones and such, but for most people, getting a D.O. is just a step along the way to diagnosing conditions and then prescribing and administering medical care. In so far as Osteopaths are “alternative” providers, it’s probably because they have a more charming manner and talk to patients more about their overall health picture, but that’s purely personality based and reflective of the sort of person who goes to Osteopath school.

And, frankly, “Hedonistic Pleasureseeker” is just BS’s with his/her “no proof chemotherapy works!” There’s no backup of the assertion, just “You can look it up! It’s true!” Please put up or shut up—make an argument; don’t resort to sloganeering.

Comment #160: Tyro  on  06/09  at  06:18 PM

But, a bad doctor says absolutely nothing about the effectiveness of pseudo-medical treatments.  A billion bad doctors will not make woo work any better.  It’s a logical fallacy.

But enough bad doctors might make it impossible for a person to get good treatment. If you are female, overweight, have a slipped disk and symptoms of nerve damage in your leg, a chiropractor might be the only one to listen to you at you and say, “we’ll get an CT and MRI and a neurologists opinion, you’ll start physiotherapy now, and if that does not help quickly or the MRI looks bad, consider surgery”, after all the orthopedists have told you to get your BMI to 21 and you’ll be magically cured anyway.

Yes, anecdote. Happened twice, to two different people I know.

Comment #161: inge  on  06/09  at  06:19 PM

As soon as allopathic care gives any attention to prevention, then, and only then, will it deserve to be the only standard in medical care.  Allopathic doctors don’t give a flying fuck about prevention and often completely ignore important clinical data on how to prevent chronic disease, like cancer, diabetes, and heart disease.  If it can’t be cured (or more often managed) with a pill, they don’t want to hear about it.  And, no, it’s not quackery to pay attention to clinical data saying that inflammation is an important cause of chronic disease, to test for it, and to take steps (such as lifestyle changes) to reduce it.

Really? Never heard of vaccines? The single most important medical discovery ever? Or do you just care about lifestyle choices? Because they deal a lot with that (trying to get people to stop smoking, or to lose weight) too.

Now there is a totally separate issue about whether doctors in America do enough preventative care, but I think this has more to do with healthcare availability than their actual medical priorities.

[Disclaimers: I’m not a doctor, but I do work for a company that has mostly Big Pharma clients]

Comment #162: MaxPolun  on  06/09  at  06:19 PM

As several commenters have pointed out, most authoritative work on the matter is cancer-specific.  The last time a comprehensive literature study was done on (multiple) cancers was published several years ago (JAMA, April 1989, author: Ulrich Abel, a German doctor), and supports my no-proof assertion.

Again, why are you conflating “different chemotherapies work for different cancers” with “chemotherapy doesn’t work”?

You might want to take a closer look at those websites pushing Abel’s study.  You may be perfectly willing to trust websites that recommend a supposed cancer clinic that is “forced to practice medicine just across the border from the U.S. in order to practice without harassment”, but I personally would be more than a little wary of people unable to obtain a medical license in the United States who nonetheless claim they can cure cancer.

If you can find an actual medical website that gives credence to Abel’s study, please do so, but the only ones I could find were stuffed with woo and insisted that modern Western medicine kills more people than it helps so we should all take herbs instead.

Comment #163: Mnemosyne  on  06/09  at  06:26 PM

Allopathic doctors don’t give a flying fuck about prevention

What? My doctor gave me advice on how to exercise to ensure that I wouldn’t permanently damage my knee, and most doctors will tell their patients with heart disease and/or high cholesterol levels to lay off the Polish sausage. However, the truth is that the patients probably won’t listen.

Every doctor I’ve ever spoken to expresses concern and/or frustration regarding the need for his patients to modify their lifestyles. However, it’s not the job of the doctors to babysit the patients. They know they should be eating healthier and they know they should be getting more exercise. What’s the doctor supposed to do? Withhold necessary pharmaceutical treatments until the patients show evidence of making lifestyle changes?

Comment #164: Tyro  on  06/09  at  06:27 PM

so why should she think I was the exception?

It is a sin to think evil of others, but it is seldom a mistake.

                      H. L. Mencken

Also, there is the possibility that some women lie to avoid embarrassment, patients can be a bit untruthful at times, for various reasons.


From the LA Times:

Inaccurate information can do more than confuse a doctor. It can lead to misinterpreted symptoms, overlooked warning signs, flawed diagnoses and treatments—potentially endangering a patient’s health, even life.

Still, doctors know that at least some of the time, at least some of their patients overstate, understate, embellish, omit, or otherwise stray from a straight and thorough reporting.

Comment #165: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/09  at  06:27 PM

Of course what’s underlying all of this is the strange conviction of some people (present company excepted) that if they just do/eat/drink the right things, they’ll never have to die.  Unfortunately for them, as the poet/mortician Thomas Lynch says, the mortality rate in America is holding steady at 100 percent.

Comment #166: Mnemosyne  on  06/09  at  06:34 PM

Thanks, Siobhan, and good call on the taking it with meals. I’m always pretty sure I’ve got real glucosamine when my stomach hurts like a mofo for an hour afterwards.

Tyro, so it’s bad if someone pays a naturopath, who will actually have the time to sit with them and counsel them on reforming their lifestyle week after week after week? It’s the fact that naturopaths discourage people from safe preventative measures like vaccines that bothers me, not that naturopaths exist, and I don’t know why there seems to be such a huge strip of scorched earth between the two camps in this thread.

Heck, my training as a lay health promoter was that it’s far more dangerous to overmedicate than to undermedicate in most cases, and that half my job was to keep people from taking Cipro they’d gotten from someone’s brother for their cold. (The other half was telling them they had lifestyle-related high blood pressure.)

Comment #167: purpleshoes  on  06/09  at  06:58 PM

kaninchen says: Her entire career is based on presenting the exceptional and rare as normal.  Which strikes me as horribly destructive: If you can’t overcome racial prejudice, or a disability, or being fat, it’s your fault for not wanting it badly enough.

I think you’ve hit on something here.  In our culture’s drive to mediocracy, we elevate the ordinary with “Everyone’s a Winner” tropies and denigrate the extraordinary by ridiculing a Latina federal judge as an “affirmative action” slacker.

Intel is running a commercial where an Indian-American nerd is heralded as a celebrity, complete with paparazzi and groupies - this nerd just happened to invent the USB.  This is a stark contrast to the onslaught on reality shows featuring people whose only achievement is forgetting to wear underwear or having enough kids to field a baseball team.

Comment #168: CParis  on  06/09  at  07:01 PM

purpleshoes, I really don’t have any problem with dieticians and athletic trainers giving people advice and guidance when it comes to the health of their clients. What I do have a problem with is people claiming that doctors don’t “care” about these things or somehow actively discourage people taking responsibility for how their lifestyle affects their health.

I guess, also, that some people might expect different things out of doctors than I do. My use of doctors generally revolves around, “This part of me is broken/hurts. How can I fix it?” If I want specific lifestyle guidance with respect to diet and exercise, I consult dieticians and sports professionals. Most doctors, in my experience, will tell me the lifestyle issues I should address (like how to change my lifestyle so I stop having sleep problems), but both the doctor and I regard his job as sort of a repair-and-maintenance function.

Comment #169: Tyro  on  06/09  at  07:12 PM

Purpleshoes @ 12:52:

That’s pretty much where I stand on it.  Yes, I’m a neopagan.  Yes, I believe in woo.  Yes, I know it’s woo, and when my child has medical problems I will take them to the doctor to care for their problems, and, if they get better, I will hold the doctor responsible rather than whatever prayer I might have done.  However, I take St. John’s Wort for mood issues, and it works for me.  Is it clinically proven?  No.  But does it work?  Yes.  Do I care why it does?  No.  Mind you, this is for small things; when it comes to bigger things I see a medical professional - sure, if I get cancer, I might do energy work, but, ultimately, it comes down to being cared for medically.  As someone with serious ADHD issues, I’m irritated by how a lot of other neopagans are so into the woo that they say that either a) that problem is a gift!  A gift, I tell you, of being connected to the universe!  !!!!  Or how they say that medicine isn’t the thing to treat it with; that I should just meditate and the like.  I know how severe my problem is, and, while I might use woo for it, I will, ultimately, trust a doctor.

I believe in gods (or something like), but I believe that, whatever’s out there, we have brains, and they’re there for a reason, so let’s not denigrate medical science, k?  It just blows my mind when people use the supernatural as reason to completely fucking ignore intellect when it’s really just something that feels good to work with if you’re so inclined.

Comment #170: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/09  at  07:13 PM

I feel that a lot of this “it’s all about healthy living” is a perversion of the basically right idea that an unhealthy environment will make you sick. An elderly relative of mine held that position firmly (and it helped her conviction that she had the constitution of a rhino), because she had worked in public health between the wars, and except for the illnesses no one cold do anything about anyway (like polio or measles), the people she saw were sick because they were malnourished, got no sunlight, bad heating, bad sanitation, crowded living conditions, many of them drank too much, ... you name it. Being poor is a health hazard.

But as structural problems are hard work to solve, bad living has come to be regarded as a “choice” or a moral failure, and if everyone just got through whatever expensive brain candy health rituals are currently in fashion, they could all be healthy thirtysomething yuppie types who do not need universal health insurance.


Mighty Ponygirl: scallions are good for posture. See, scallions, they stand up very straight, and when you eat scallions, you’ll stand up straighter yourself

That made me laugh. It’s so traditional. See, the leaves of this plant are shaped like lungs! They must help with breathing problems! You have a runny nose because you have too much of the element of water in your body! Eat hot peppers to balance your humours!

Ms Kate: Do we ever see this sort of Woo Worship in societies with proper access to medical care and insurance?  On this sort of scale?

Don’t know about the scale (hard to compare from abroad), but in general: yes

Emmet: Acupuncture is not accepted b/c the studies say it works no better than a placebo.

If a placebo is the only thing that helps against chronic pain, you take the placebo. Especially when everyone from the government down to your GP is so phobic about the possibility of drug addiction that they refuse effective pain meds to the dying because they might get hooked. Not dying and suffering from chronic pain? Lose weight and take paracetamol.

Comment #171: inge  on  06/09  at  07:14 PM

The problem with allopathic medicine is that it is very good at battlefield medicine—acute infection and trauma.  This also applies to vaccines.  And it’s not bad at things that help rich people—cosmetic surgery and heart disease.

But it’s terrible at lifestyle and chronic illness.  The problem is, so is almost everything else.

Good doctors know this.  They know they are trained in certain areas and that their training does not cover other areas.  They concentrate on palliative care for the folks with chronic illness and try to nudge them toward living more healthily, though of course they can’t model this.

I went to a chiropractor, and they are often helpful for back and neck problems.  The good ones know this and stop there.  The bad ones don’t and don’t.  I went to an acupuncturist, and just as in the studies, the act of lying on a table and remaining calm while a guy put needles into me was a good anti-stress exercise, but I didn’t get anything else out of it.  Massage is good for stress and sore muscles, and stress touches everything.

But I suffer from two illnesses—Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Migraine—which were both all in the heads of the people having them, until doctors got them, when magically they got upgraded.  There is a lot of arrogance out there about pathology for a profession that fought hard against the guy who said that maybe doctors should wash their hands sometimes.

Comment #172: Punditus Maximus  on  06/09  at  07:20 PM

Really? Never heard of vaccines? The single most important medical discovery ever?

I’d have to say the germ theory of disease (and the associated technologies of (i) soap and (ii) toilets) counts way, way higher.

IMAPFO, people continually underestimate the importance of toilets.

Comment #173: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/09  at  07:40 PM

Mnemosyne, I’m not making the argument you say that I am making, so . . . ?  I’ve not been to the “woo” websites, I got hip to Abel from a 2005 translation of a Der Speigel article.  So far as I can tell he’s still publishing because I did find this, today:  http://en.scientificcommons.org/ulrich_abel  (this doesn’t mean his opinions are the be-all and end-all, I’m suggesting by this that he’s probably not a quack).  Just because a “woo” website publishes a JAMA article does not invalidate that article. 

Kodiak:  I’m not making the argument you accuse me of making.  Look again: I qualified my statement and don’t have my ego invested in being right.  The Abel study is just OLD and I’m surprised (and a little confused) that there does not appear to be a more recent study of its ilk. Scientific articles are almost never “definitive,” that’s kind of the whole point of science. I agree with Hector: Times have changed. But how? 

Tyro: You’re demanding I prove a negative?  Rhetorical: Wouldn’t be easier to prove that chemo generally does work? Agree 100% osteopath comment though.  I asked my boss to share what his doctors told him about chemotherapy, and he’s game, but by the time he gets it to me this thread will probably have died.

Generally:  Here I am challenged on multiple fronts to justify my statements, but when I decide to be a good sport and play ball Amanda suggests I’m looking for attention.  WOW. Tough moderator. Looks like a no win. Dang.

Comment #174: The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker  on  06/09  at  07:59 PM

Tyro, I don’t know why your comment is nagging at me but it is. When I am sick, I am not a machine that is broken; I am a person whose brain is connected to the rest of her body, and honestly I see more benefit from having a nice lady rub some lavender oil into my pressure points and then gently suggest that I maybe try some yoga and consider not eating things that come in crinkly foil bags every day then from dealing with an athletic trainer (dear god) or a dietician (clinical, scary, expensive). I think in general the only connecting factor among medical and psuedo-medical practitioners who I’ve had success with was that they were old and accepted that sometimes bodies don’t cooperate with you even when you are living right.

My old chiropractor was the last person I’d go to for dietary advice, admittedly. He believed you should only eat fermented meats (don’t ask. Please don’t ask) and cooked greens. He did not smell very good. But he did know how to de-lump a back.

Inge, you are absolutely spot-on about this idea that somehow personal virtue should be able to make up for widespread public health problems.

Comment #175: purpleshoes  on  06/09  at  07:59 PM

Chemo and radiation worked for me. They worked for me so well that I went back to school and work in an oncology clinic. 

And kudos to all the pro-science feminists posting here.

Comment #176: pablo  on  06/09  at  08:08 PM

I think Amanda missed, but some people here in comments, touched on another reason “alternative medicine” is appealing. It’s that “alternative medicine” is accessible, at least if you have the money for it.

I spent about two years up to my knees in woo and buying a zillion natural remedies and supplements for my depression, and I said the hell with it after it became clear that none of it was working—but at that time I had no insurance and no access to counseling, or antidepressants, or medical assessment of my condition. What was I supposed to do? I know, I know, the real answer to that question is “Not waste money on magic water and ground-up weeds”, but the experience definitely gave me a basis for empathy with people do do decide that if they don’t have access to real medical care they have to try and care for themselves.

Also, even when medicine is financially accessible, it’s guarded by the gatekeepers of medicine, the physicians, who let’s face it are not exactly 100% reliable. I have access to medical care now but my chronic health condition is still not getting treated. I know something’s wrong, but the chuckleheads who run the lab tests tell me that my numbers are normal, so logically, I’m just fine, even though some days I don’t have the energy to put on shoes.

Having to deal with doctors that blame every little (or big) problem on your DEATH FAT can turn a person off of real medicine too. So can having physicians who refuse to believe that your Prozac is affecting your libido, or prescribe you medications that interact badly, treat you rudely, refuse to listen to you in general, slut-shame you, tell you if you cheered up and were a better wife you’d feel better, lecture you for bathing your children twice a week instead of daily, refuse emergency contraception or abortions, manifest racism or homophobia towards you, stick religiously to out-of-date information about conditions or treatments, and on and on.

What I’m getting at is that “medicine” is sort of a Platonic ideal; it’s this concept that out there there is stuff that can help you. But to go through it you have to deal with a priest-caste, a system of flawed human beings, and if you’re not judged to be worthy then you can be denied access to it. So it’s stupid and it’s sad that people are drinking magic water pills to cure diabetes or whatever, but it’s understandable, because they can walk into a health food store or click away online and get the stuff they think they need, directly, by themselves without petitioning the priest-caste.

Comment #177: kristin  on  06/09  at  08:25 PM

“in many women, thyroid dysfunction develops because of an energy blockage in the throat region, the result of a lifetime of ‘swallowing’ words one is aching to say.”

Which is a wacky woo way of saying “stress can contribute to weight gain.” Which it can. But the woo gets in the way of any clear understanding of how stress actually affects health. One might say the woo causes a blockage in the brain, the result of a lifetime of muddled thinking.

Comment #178: Theron  on  06/09  at  08:36 PM

I’m a bit aghast at the idea that those kids in the 1960s just didn’t believe in themselves hard enough. I suppose I can see where it comes from—if you can’t access actual medicine, it doesn’t really matter how well it works—but damn, it’s compelling to see what a difference medicine can make.

Comment #179: grendelkhan  on  06/09  at  08:58 PM

Re: Acupuncture again

I should also note here that the personal acupuncture miracles I have witnessed came AFTER the patient in question had exhausted standard medicine.

Comment #180: Siobhan  on  06/09  at  09:18 PM

Mnemosyne, I’m not making the argument you say that I am making, so . . . ?

Then what is your argument?  You’re saying that chemotherapy doesn’t work.  We’re pointing out that, no, it does work, but not every chemotherapy works for every cancer, because (for example) lymphoma and breast cancer are different diseases.  Some cancers don’t respond well to chemotherapy.  Others do.  To insist that chemotherapy doesn’t work for breast cancer because it doesn’t work very well for prostate cancer exposes a well of ignorance about cancer that frightens me.

You said, “there’s no proof that chemotherapy works, but there is proof that it kills.”  If you didn’t mean that chemotherapy doesn’t work, what did you mean?

Comment #181: Mnemosyne  on  06/09  at  09:23 PM

The Abel study is just OLD and I’m surprised (and a little confused) that there does not appear to be a more recent study of its ilk.

It should probably tell you something about that study that no one else has been able to replicate its results, don’t you think?

Comment #182: Mnemosyne  on  06/09  at  09:26 PM

Theron: Agree 100 %, except . . . Ironically, if it were not for naturopaths posting their natural remedies for what they call “adrenal fatigue” on the internet I’d never know about my adrenal glands and how they work. I really needed the information because my adrenals put me in the hospital, twice. http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/acute-adrenal-crisis/overview.html  My doctor/osteo and the ER personnel did not have the time to lay it all out for me beyond “you need to reduce your stress and eat something. OK out you go NEXT!”  (Just not bananas or grapefruit on an empty stomach. Or caffeine. Or alcohol. They didn’t tell me that, but the naturopaths did, and they did it in a layperson’s language.  Call if woo if you must, but they met a genuine need.)

Do I think the “herbal remedies” work?  I don’t know, but LICORICE is recommended (really? awesome!).  I’d just as soon stick to the dietary recommendations though.  Other than the occasional cortisol shot or a prednisone dose on a really bad day, there doesn’t seem to be much doctors can do beyond recommending that I “reduce my stress” and “eat something.”

Comment #183: The Hedonistic Pleasureseeker  on  06/09  at  09:48 PM

Mnemosyne:

It’s not so much about replicating results as about the study (apparently) asking the wrong question.  Some cancers are highly susceptible to chemotherapy, others aren’t. So asking whether chemotherapy helps a bunch of cancers depends really strongly on which cancers you ask about, sorta like asking whether surgery can reverse blindness. But then, JAMA has been known over the decades for publishing big review articles that were better for the issues they raised than the conclusions they reached. (And, of course, the state of the art in chemo has gotten radically better since the 1980s.)

Oh, and Siobhan, I think the plant thing is even worse than you describe. If only one chemical in the plant is relevant to the condition being treated, you’re much better off than, say, a complex of 10 chemicals being involved, with the ratios of those chemicals crucially important and depending not only on growth conditions but time of harvesting and techniques used for drying, storing and extracting. (For a non-plant example, consider the various antibacterials derived from frog spit or fish slime or whatever—typically any given creature makes half a dozen compounds, but researchers can generally only characterize and test one at a time.)

Comment #184: paul  on  06/09  at  10:08 PM

Allopathic doctors don’t give a flying fuck about prevention

This thread is full of comedy gold but this takes the dummy-spitting cake.

Prevention rather than cure? Where shall we start?

Let’s see, we’ll start with the grand-daddy of them all - Ignatz Semmelweis, who in 1847 started w whole new trend in disease prevention by suggesting doctors washed their fucking hands because of these hitherto unsuspected things called ‘germs’. Until then, illness was supposed to be a resulted of having your humours out of sorts (does that sound familiar, alt quacks?). You’ll notice how ‘allopathic’ doctors are really big on the old hand-washing/sterile equipment thing to this day, thereby preventing a endless plethora or disgusting and deadly infections.

Next up, Edward Jenner! Vaccine dude. You know, those things that the alt. health groupies to to regard in the same way most people regard pedophiles - because polio/smallpox/whooping cough/measles/diptheria outbreaks and epidemics are fun and never, ever resulted in horrible deaths and whole populations living in fear of the latest epidemic would leave themselves or their child disabled, disfigured or dead?! No, those polio wards and iron lungs were a fiction of the evil ‘allopathic’ medical establishent. Those bastards.

Then we have yearly cervical smears, mammograms, campaigns to get people to use condoms, cover their fucking mouths when they sneeze and cough etc. Other preventative medicine involves the usual, boring advice about not smoking, not drinking too much alcohol, taking some exercise and eating a balanced diet including lot of vegetables and fruit. Which you know, most people don’t bother listening to anyway because OMG BORING. Most preventative medicine is actually so basic and dull that people don’t even think of it as that. The problem is, as evidenced by quack fads and the popularity of useless diet aids and supplements that simply result in expensive piss, a lot of people aren’t interested in preventative medicine, they just want a magic wand, something the quacks specialise in.

Anyway, it’s time for me to plug Ben Goldacre, whose blog you should all read. Start with this entry:

You’ll figure out its relevance to this Pandagon thread in due course, I promise.

Comment #185: killerrobot  on  06/09  at  11:30 PM

Molly, NYC said it before, and it bears repeating:

Q. What do they call alternative medicine that’s actually been proven to work?
A. Medicine.

All the conspiratorial thinking in the world won’t change the fact that however unpleasant many of its aftereffects may be, scientific medicine is the best tool we have for healing people. Woomeisters put up a good front of concern, but I guarantee you that if you scratch one of them you will find one of two people underneath: 1. a con artist, or 2. a person whose determination to help people is matched only by their hubris that they know something the rest of the world doesn’t.

Alternative medicine is about money and/or ego, and only secondarily about healing. Every other justification for every alternative practice that is not mainstream comes down to “I like it so fuck you that’s why”, and for all the earnest chiropractors and naturopaths and whatnots out there, there’s a Kevin Trudeau or Hulda Clark laughing all the way to the bank. If you are a lefty and you support altmed, you’re making the rest of us look like idiots and YOU ARE THE ENEMY.

Comment #186: BrianX  on  06/09  at  11:33 PM

Kevin Trudeau, Hulda Clark, Matthias Rath, AIDS denialist who got rich from persuading the governments of developing nations that AIDS is not caused by HIV but by AIDS drugs and is curable with vitamin pills. I’d like to curb-stomp the greedy, genocidal bastard into a bloody pulp.

Comment #187: killerrobot  on  06/09  at  11:40 PM

I should also note here that the personal acupuncture miracles I have witnessed came AFTER the patient in question had exhausted standard medicine.

And I’ve seen this twice in my life, but it doesn’t mean I actually believe it is real, only that I saw something that I couldn’t happen to explain at the time.

As has been relentlessly stated (but always bears repeating)  the plural of “anecdote” is not “data”.

Comment #188: KeithM  on  06/10  at  12:15 AM

Anyway, it’s time for me to plug Ben Goldacre, whose blog you should all read. Start with this entry:

And while we’re promoting sites people should take the time to look at:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/

Comment #189: KeithM  on  06/10  at  12:20 AM

I say allopathic, as I can’t think of a polite word for ‘real medicine’ or ‘science based medicine’

Comment #190: shannon  on  06/10  at  12:56 AM

shannon:

“Science-based medicine” or “evidence-based medicine” are both sufficiently polite for any use you may need to put them to. The latter is slightly more fashionable at the moment though.

Comment #191: BrianX  on  06/10  at  01:08 AM

Shannon, I had the same problem but now (after I’ve posted, of course) I realize that “modern medicine” or “evidence-based medicine” would work.

Comment #192: kristin  on  06/10  at  01:09 AM

IT people get it, too—-most computer errors are user-based, but people who are having computer problems don’t want to hear that.  So they get angry, the IT guy gets annoyed, and on the rare occasion that it is the computer and not the user, the user feels vindicated, as if they proved the IT guy wrong.  They didn’t.  The method is go for the most common explanation, and then move on after you’ve eliminated that.

If only it were as simple as that dichotomy.  Though your point that most errors are user-based is correct, much of those errors IME are actually a dizzying combination of user errors combined with computer-related issues.  After working with computers for more than a decade, I found that the responsibility for most of those errors are varying degrees of users themselves along with poor designed interfaces, ill-conceived software engineering/design, and software/hardware bugs.

Also, one factor in why so many people get angry at the IT staff IME is that too many of them have picked up IT/technology stuff so easily that they have a hard time relating to others who may not pick up IT/tech stuff as quickly as they did.  It also doesn’t help that some can be quite arrogant about it as those of this ilk tend to feel that if others can’t pick up IT/tech as easily as they did….they must be idiots.  And yes, I speak as someone who picked up IT stuff easily and get on well with plenty of people in IT and other tech fields….and yet feel those attitudes are uncalled for in the vast majority of cases.

Comment #193: exholt  on  06/10  at  01:44 AM

Stereotypical stay-at-home moms (or moms with insecure, low-paying jobs) are somewhere around the bottom, which is why many of them want to believe in miracles.

Umm…so….the less “power” you have, the more you want to believe in a “higher, miracle granting power”!

Comment #194: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/10  at  11:07 AM

Siobhan, any chance you’re willing to share the glucosamine secret? Because I have shamefully bad knees for a person in her twenties, but I know most glucosamine supplements are in fact a ripoff.

purpleshoes

Well, what is the cause of your knee drama?

If it’s collagen related, you may want to give the glucosamine-chondroitin thing a whirl (I tried it at the behest of a Physical Trainer who was dipleased with my unwillingness to do squats & I swear to Cthulhu - it worked for me)...keeping in mind, the key with vitamins & supplements is the absorption rate. If your body doesn’t absorb significant amts of the ((insert vitamin / supplement name here)), it ain’t worth squat.

(No pun intended wink )

Glucosamine & chondroitin are molecules which the body uses to produce collagen…The thoery is - increasing the presence of the building blocks for collagen will increase collagen production. Of course, if your body has completely given up on producing enough collagen, you’re fuct… and all the glucosamine & chondriotin from White Castle to the Nile will not help you.

Comment #195: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/10  at  11:21 AM

Hedonistic, now you’ve gone from just being wrong to suspicion of getting off on the attention that comes with it.


Not quite

TROLL!
Light your pitchforks!

But close!

Bwahahaaha!

Comment #196: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/10  at  11:24 AM

Being tech savvy, scientifically literate and having basic knowledge of math (in particular statistics) is starting to be as important (if it wasn’t already) to be an informed and active citizenry as literacy was in the past few centuries. It’s unfortunate, but this attitude of ‘tech people’ is the direct equivalence of most people’s attitudes towards illiterate people. Illiteracy is a serious problem, it shouldn’t be the subject of ridicule but attention should be paid by all progressives that people have the access to what’s needed to acquire this important skill. So should be the same with scientific, tech and math ‘literacy’.

Comment #197: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  11:36 AM

Being tech savvy, scientifically literate and having basic knowledge of math (in particular statistics) is starting to be as important (if it wasn’t already) to be an informed and active citizenry as literacy was in the past few centuries. It’s unfortunate, but this attitude of ‘tech people’ is the direct equivalence of most people’s attitudes towards illiterate people. Illiteracy is a serious problem, it shouldn’t be the subject of ridicule but attention should be paid by all progressives that people have the access to what’s needed to acquire this important skill. So should be the same with scientific, tech and math ‘literacy’.

To accomplish facilitating that access in the US, there are large systemic issues which must be solved. 

One is the US pop culture’s widespread disdain for learning/intellectualism of any kind.  Excelling in academics….especially the STEM subjects in most K-12 schools and sometimes even beyond can cause one to be socially ostracized or worse from what I heard from college classmates, friends, and colleagues who attended mainstream US public and private schools.  Most of the ones who excelled academically at K-12, especially in math/STEM fields were subjected to social ostracism and physical and mental bullying by their peers and sometimes…even their teachers.*  In such an environment, no wonder many students feel that it is better to be mediocre student rather than a “nerd” subjected to ostracism and bullying.

This combined with the fact math teaching at K-12 tends to be pretty bad unless you attended an exceptionally good public/private school…..and even then….many kids tend to fall through the cracks for various reasons.**  It also doesn’t help that many K-12 teachers teaching math/STEM subjects barely mastered their subject or were not certified, but pressed into service teaching math/STEM subjects because there are shortages of math/STEM certified teachers.  Moreover, starting salaries and working conditions at most K-12 schools are so bad that with the small exception of those who are altruistic/public service minded, most top graduating undergrads tend to reject teaching for careers/jobs with higher pay, prestige, and/or better working conditions.  I’ve also known many friends/college classmates from the altruistic/public-service minded group who tried teaching as a career and ended up burning out before their first five years because of the low salaries and crappy working conditions (i.e. Having to struggle with an unsupported educational bureaucracy). 

As a result, most tend to struggle with IT/tech stuff and it takes them a longer time than what IT people like myself experienced….if they don’t give up out of frustration of learning something which doesn’t come naturally to them and/or being subjected to IT/tech experts who cannot relate and thus, communicate IT/tech concepts in ways easier for the layperson to pick up. 

* Had a taste of this in junior high.  Glad to have missed out on this in high school

** I.e. Teachers basing their teaching on the pace set by the top 10% of students in class with little/no help for the other 90%.

Comment #198: exholt  on  06/10  at  12:22 PM

Uhura, in theory patella tilt, but as people on this thread have noted, the pain is so cyclical and influenced by so many other factors (am I well-hydrated? Did I wear over-supportive shoes? Did I sleep enough? Did I sleep in the wrong position? And goddamn, the “anti-inflammatory diet” thing does seem to help, while loads of salt makes it worse, which makes it hard to eat in the South) that I have trouble pinning down cause and effect. And of course, the only time I’ve gotten this kind of thing under control was when I was able to go to physical therapy three days a week and use the electrostim machine, which, heck if I can do that as an adult with a full-time job. I am mainly interested in glucosamine because if it hurts this much in my mid-twenties I’m going to be in a world of suffering by thirty-five.

Amanda, your “birth control side effects are all in your head” theory never ceases to freak me out a little. I experience all of the stereotypical side effects on some kinds of birth control (except for nausea and vomiting - it takes a lot more than that to put me off my breakfast) and going on hormonal birth control is rarely concurrent with becoming sexually active for me. What’s more, the weight gain you dismiss shows up in less than two weeks, not over the course of years, and is mostly in the form of painful water retention. I don’t know if you still believe that birth control side effects are an expression of secret sexual shame, but if so, I’m calling woo.

The study that notes that birth control isn’t necessarily correlated with weight gain does note that many people have the perception of weight gain because they’re retaining so much water and/or experience a sudden shift in how they carry their weight (I for one used to have a completely flat butt pre-Pill). I seem to remember they also imply that a lot of people are nauseous or even vomit while adjusting and therefore lose weight. That’s not “no side effects”, that’s “side effects vary”. Likewise, the studies I’ve found on birth control and depression never say that no one becomes depressed; they note that while many people experience negative changes in mood, plenty of women have been so panicked about getting pregnant for so long that having a reliable method that they control results in feeling less anxious and depressed. Which makes sense. I don’t like birth control side effects, but I think it’s a mistake to assume that the alternative is “no side effects” when for most of us the alternative is “pregnancy side effects”.

Comment #199: purpleshoes  on  06/10  at  12:31 PM

The bullying not only discourages people from learning the subject, it also reinforces a tribal instinct in the geek set which makes them adverse to the spreading of knowledge. Accessability is considered ‘dumbing down’ by many in the crowd, whether it is the focus on User Interface that is done by more modern IT departments and software corporations, to less ‘serious’ stuff like the fact that so many of my geek peers who play D&D;have forsaken 4th edition *because* it is accessible, which IMO made it a much better game than previous versions. Or again, Magic : The Gathering is making some important changes in favor of accessability (probably Hasbro realizing that selling always to the same people can only result in degradation of market shares over time) which are decried by players as dumbing down.

I was lucky in that:
a) my school, in spite of being considered the ‘dumb kids school’ in my town, had the most awesome math teacher in the world (okay, I’m biased) and some pretty nifty science teachers as well

b) some of my bullies from 8th grade ended up being my friends (well, okay, acquaintances) by 10th grade due to circumstances like being stuck together for projects and me actually helping them along instead of lording my skillz over them. I also had a few of the ‘popular’ kids that I had been friend with in elementary school and we had drifted apart but I guess they had kept a good first impression of me. I can only assume some people dropped a few ‘stop being a jerk to him, he’s cool’ in the right ears at some point, because even those people I reviled ended up just not speaking with me ever instead of continuing the bullying. (The worst bullying happened the year I tried getting into sports to meet new people, actually. Probably a tribal ‘you don’t belong here, go away’ response.)

Comment #200: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  12:42 PM

What I’ve learned personally is that these things can be taught to people if they’re not being condescended to, or are not trained to learn it as rote memorization. Well, okay, some people are really good at rote memorization. There was a person in one of my science classes who learned the entire book but had no fucking clue what the things meant so she couldn’t apply that knowledge at all… a frequent thing, unfortunatly, in modern high schools, due to the teaching practices. But most people find rote memorization extremely unsatisfying and hate it. If you teach them that that’s what math is, then no wonder people hate math, when in fact math is more akin to art as it is a creative endeavor, IMO.

Comment #201: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  12:47 PM

Oddly enough, the worst math teachers I had were in college, where the professors apparently didn’t want to waste time preparing lectures and teaching undergrads. I was lucky that the ones in grade school and high school really seemed to like doing what they were doing and to consider it important. Intro sciene and math are really such cool stuff it should be hard to turn people off.

Comment #202: paul  on  06/10  at  12:55 PM

Em: To be somewhat fair to doctors on the issue of the Pill, there is a TON of evidence to show that because the Pill is an emotionally loaded drug, women do blame unrelated issues on them. Namely, double blind studies have proven that the side effect women fear the most—-weight gain—-has no relationship to the Pill.

This.
One thing about my body and the pill, however, in my old age-ed-ness I have had to switch from the cheap ($10 mo with my insurance) bc pills to the ring because I was getting horrible migraines. Which are now gone. It beats having to take a pill everyday but I wish it were cheaper. :(

Comment #203: Danica Lefse Queen  on  06/10  at  01:10 PM

My worst math teacher was in grade 9. It single handedly made math my least favorite subject, after it being my favorite subject for all my life. Then the next year I got the World’s Best Math Teacher, so I’m guessing somehow the universe was trying to repay me.

How was he the worst math teacher? Let me count the ways.

a) Barely touched upon the subject in class, instead making us do exercises in the book for half the course or more. Did not explain why we used certain methods, only taught the methods as some sort of mechanical recipe to follow, handed from God on-high (which would be him, given d)).

b) Rote memorization. Made us do all these exercises that were the *exact same thing* with just the numbers changed, so that we would redo the fucking algorithm over and over and over again. For hours.

c) One size fits all. We had to do all the fucking exercises in spite of the fact that some people could understand the gist of it after 2 or 3 repetitions of these while other people struggled even after doing all of them (and quite frankly, if you don’t understand the algorithm, what made him think that trying to use it even a million times would solve the problem if he didn’t explain it properly?).

d) Mindless authoritarianism. We were expressly forbidden from using the in-class time to do our homeworks, for instance (which involved X more repetitions of the stuff we did in class *anyway*). Those of us who finished really quickly were forbidden from doing anything else while we waited for the end of class. Obviously we couldn’t leave the class early. No right to talk, read, anything.

e) Just basic incompetence. I was known as a smart ass in class because I liked correcting teachers. This guy was the cause of my reputation, since I must have corrected him at least once every course, often more. Couple that with d), not pretty. In politics, he would have been GOP.

Comment #204: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  02:10 PM

The fact that I was always undermining his authority didn’t help either. To get around b), me and friend would split up the odd and even numbered questions and find a way to pass along the results. We also found ways to do homework if we were done with the problems, and if we got caught we’d just show him our completed exercises and ask him if he preferred we play cards or something.

Comment #205: BlackBloc  on  06/10  at  02:13 PM

I know I am late to the game but I just thought I would point out that several chemotheraputic agents are derived from “natural” sources such as pacific yew trees, madicascar periwinkle and the American mayapple.  However, unlike homeopath or other woo medicine, these compounds have over 60 years of scientific studies to show that get rid of cancer by killing rapidly dividing cells.  Hedonist can link to that one study, but if you do any search on the great google, you will easily find a load of evidence that it does work, particularly on cancers that have high growth factors.

Comment #206: kitten parade  on  06/10  at  02:56 PM

e) Just basic incompetence. I was known as a smart ass in class because I liked correcting teachers. This guy was the cause of my reputation, since I must have corrected him at least once every course, often more. Couple that with d), not pretty. In politics, he would have been GOP.

The fact that I was always undermining his authority didn’t help either. To get around b), me and friend would split up the odd and even numbered questions and find a way to pass along the results. We also found ways to do homework if we were done with the problems, and if we got caught we’d just show him our completed exercises and ask him if he preferred we play cards or something.

BlackBloc,

Sounded like you’d fit in very well with the students at my urban public magnet school.  It was common for students to correct teachers at my urban public magnet….and though a few teachers exhibited annoyance and many of the smarter kids among us were asshats about it…..most of the teachers understood that it came with the territory of teaching there. 

Unfortunately, that didn’t mean we didn’t have mindless authoritarians there…..though it usually took the form of them berating the bottom 90% of the class about why we couldn’t perform at the level of the top 10% of our classmates or otherwise how we were not meeting their “high standards”.

Comment #207: exholt  on  06/10  at  03:26 PM

“And I’ve seen this twice in my life, but it doesn’t mean I actually believe it is real, only that I saw something that I couldn’t happen to explain at the time.”

I went and saw this thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paulding_Light

Supposedly caused by car lights reflected or a ghost.

Comment #208: witless chum  on  06/10  at  04:13 PM

Obligatory Onion article. I’m starting to feel like an “Area Man Remembers an Onion Article About This” article myself

Comment #209: KJK::Hyperion  on  06/10  at  04:55 PM

@Punditus Maximus

I spent years getting every neurological test under the sun to try to figure out any cause for my chronic migraines that did not respond in any way to migraine treatments.  I found that I could prevent them to a certain extent with beta-blockers (until asthma started and beta-blockers are contraindicated) then SSRIs.  When a therapist recommended that I get my thyroid checked, the endocrinologist also ran a Vitamin D check and discovered my levels were rickets-level low.  She put me on a super high therapeutic dose of Vitamin D for 6 weeks and I was really surprised that my migraines and my overall mood improved tremendously.  I have celiac disease which is I guess why my levels were so low AND why she thought to test for it.  I’m now telling everyone that I know because I know so many people with chronic pain and apparently a low Vit D level can wreak all sorts of havoc.

Comment #210: Erica  on  06/10  at  05:16 PM

Namely, double blind studies have proven that the side effect women fear the most—-weight gain—-has no relationship to the Pill.

I’m pretty sure this cannot possibly be true.

I was 23 and 105 pounds when I started taking the Pill. I promptly went up to 125 (after holding steady at 105 for two years, and 98 for five years before that) in four months.

Ten years later I was 135 pounds. I started a new Pill formulation. In three months I was 150 lbs.

Of course, my first pregnancy sent me from 150 to 165 lbs, and my second one from 165 to 175… permanently. In each case, I can’t lose the weight without dieting and exercising… even when breastfeeding. It’s as if my body has decided that it needs to be heavier and is adjusting my appetite and metabolism to match. (I never, ever, ever dieted in my life until I was up to 150 lbs…) So I’m certainly not going to say that pregnancy is *better* or that the Pill is a bad idea. But I just don’t see how me gaining substantial permanent weight in short periods of time, multiple times, when I either hold steady or gain about a pound a year at all other times, can possibly be coincidental. One time, maybe. Four times?

Now, not all Pill formulations actually do this. But I’m really, really suspicious of a study that says that a common-sense side effect everyone knows women can suffer from taking the Pill, that I myself have experienced, that is reasonable to expect given how the Pill works, isn’t the case. Sure, sometimes the common wisdom is just wrong, but when one person can gain weight on two different pill formulations and not gain weight on five others, it seems to me that it would be hard to *find* the effect in the data noise. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, though it may be less common than believed. (And, again, pregnancy is at least *equally* likely to cause permanent weight gain, if not much *more* likely.)

Comment #211: Alara J Rogers  on  06/10  at  09:33 PM

One problem with double-blind studies, and especially with meta-analyses of double-blind studies, is that by necessity they work on a lowest-common-denominator basis to get more powerful statistical results. So if there’s some subtle factor that affects a whole population, they can tease it out better, but if there’s an effect that only hits some subgroup that not every study in the meta-analysis reported on, it may be excluded a priori.

Comment #212: paul  on  06/11  at  12:16 PM

Uhura, in theory patella tilt, but as people on this thread have noted, the pain is so cyclical and influenced by so many other factors (am I well-hydrated? Did I wear over-supportive shoes? Did I sleep enough? Did I sleep in the wrong position? And goddamn, the “anti-inflammatory diet” thing does seem to help, while loads of salt makes it worse, which makes it hard to eat in the South) that I have trouble pinning down cause and effect. And of course, the only time I’ve gotten this kind of thing under control was when I was able to go to physical therapy three days a week and use the electrostim machine, which, heck if I can do that as an adult with a full-time job. I am mainly interested in glucosamine because if it hurts this much in my mid-twenties I’m going to be in a world of suffering by thirty-five.

Purple shoes, again - glucosamine is theorized to address the issue of decreased collagen production. You really need to work with an M.D. to discover the real cause of your probs & go from there.

I sincerely wish you the best smile

Comment #213: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  06/11  at  01:02 PM
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