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Next entry: New carnival Previous entry: Here Is Why You Are Completely Wrong

Outraged or just disgusted?

The hits keep on coming with octuplet mother Nadya Suleman, who published photos of her disturbingly distended pregnant belly, provoking another round of ill-placed outrage and half-hearted feminist defenses like this one.  It is indeed fascinating how people are stuck in moral outrage mode over Suleman, when it seems to me the proper response is compassion for her not even remotely hidden mental health issues that her poor family can’t cope with.  But it does draw up something I’ve thought about a lot, which is how our moral responses are conflated with feelings of disgust, and indeed many people have a lot of trouble telling the difference from feeling disgusted with something and feeling morally outraged about it.

Because I’m not outraged at Suleman having a gross, unnatural belly that is made all the more disturbing her her extensive plastic surgery that gives her a face that falls straight into the uncanny valley.  But I won’t lie—-I flinched and was disgusted.  I suppose I should be ashamed of that, but the more I think about it, the more I think that the shame at being disgusted is due to the widespread confusion of “moral outrage” and “disgust”.  People think you’re laying moral judgment on something if you find it disgusting.  Like if I saw a bloody tampon laying on the sidewalk and felt disgust, does that really have to mean that I’ve got internalized misogyny against women and our body functions?  No.  It’s just gross.  Nor did my flinching at those pictures means that I think Suleman is a bad person.  I think she’s messed up, and needs help, but certainly not an evil person.  It’s a real shame that the circus around her means that she probably won’t get the help she needs.  Everyone’s too busy being outraged.

But the fact that people confuse the two emotions—-moral outrage and disgust—-is fascinating.  And it seems like it’s an accident of evolution, actually.  Morality had to evolve out of pre-existing emotions, I suspect, and instead of piggybacking on anger or grief, moral outrage appears to have evolved out of disgust.  Last night I was walking down the street and walked by a woman whose dog was shitting on the sidewalk, and when she quite responsibly picked up the poop, I smelled it and my face wrinkled up into the disgust expression involuntarily, and she looked at me, and I felt bad, because for a moment, I worried she thought I was disapproving of her when in fact I appreciated that she cleaned up after her dog.  Moral outrage looks like disgust and vice versa.  In fact, feeling one or the other can trigger the other feeling, which is why I suspect people look at the incredibly sad photos of Suleman doing her thing and feel moral outrage, outrage that is piggybacking on disgust, which is a tad more understandable. 


The two emotions are so intertwined that I can hear keyboards firing up to condemn me for feeling disgusted by Suleman’s photos, as if I judged her a bad person, even though I have explicitly stated that I do not judge her.  It’s really not my place, and I’d feel like a bad person if I did, since I think she’s the victim of forces that she can’t control very well.  But we have a lot of trouble distinguishing between the two. 

But wouldn’t it be awesome if we could distinguish easily between the two emotions?  I think a lot of our culture war issues exist strictly because it’s easy to disgust people with things they aren’t familiar with, and from there you can make them feel morally outraged about it.  It’s really obvious how homophobes do this.  They exploit a lot of people’s anxieties about sex acts they don’t understand and therefore find disgusting, like anal sex, and then allow that disgust to substitute for sound moral judgments.  If they could step back from it and realize that even if anal sex does and always will disgust them, it doesn’t make it wrong.  Virginity pledges work on the same emotions—-teenagers who haven’t really experienced much sexual interaction feel disgust at the thought of it, and can easily be convinced that it’s disgusting because of moral turpitude.  On this week’s episode of the podcast, I investigate the ex-masturbation ministries, and that’s the sum total of their argument—-masturbation is wrong because it’s easy to cast it as disgusting.  Of course, this way of thinking makes two grave logical errors.  Not just that it’s wrong to conflate disgusting with wrong, but the concept of disgusting is very context-dependent.  If you familiarize yourself with something, it’s less disgusting.  So anal sex turns your stomach the first time you hear about it, but as you grow used to the idea, it’s no big deal.  Sex in general loses a lot of the disgust response as you grow used to it.  Masturbation isn’t disgusting if you don’t think of it as disgusting.  But even then, all this is context-dependent.  If you encountered any of these behaviors in a public bathroom by accident, you’d be disgusted, most likely.  Also, things that aren’t disgusting when they come from you might be disgusting in other contexts—-like I am not really disgusted if I cut myself and bleed, but if I see someone else bleeding, I get queasy. 

Of course, all this means that women have traditionally been portrayed as morally inferior by dwelling on the idea that our bodies are more disgusting.  Which causes a real moral quandary, because every time I shave my legs, I’m contributing to a society that argues that women are more disgusting, therefore women are less moral.  But of course, it has a lot more functions than just that, so I suspect I’ll keep the habit up.  And Atrios’s joke about how people are easy to rile up about abortion because abortion is icky is more true than you’d think at first glance.  God knows anti-choice nuts think grossing you out with bloody fetus pictures is an argument, and sadly some people buy that.

Maybe if moral outrage was more related to anger or grief, we would be better.  Maybe then we would get more upset over violence than sex, less worried about how our neighbors use their bodies differently than we do and more worried about if our neighbors are needlessly hurting each other.  We wouldn’t get bent out of shape over abortion, and maybe “pro-lifers” could care about lives that are and not just those that could be.  And certainly there’d be a lot less outrage over Suleman’s behavior and more outrage about a society that fucks so many women up, and not just her. 

Just a thought.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:51 PM • (87) Comments

Morality had to evolve out of pre-existing emotions, I suspect, and instead of piggybacking on anger or grief, moral outrage appears to have evolved out of disgust.

Yeah, morality is ultimately a pretty abstract idea.  I’m not entirely sure that it “evolved” out of just one more basic emotions across all cultures. 

To be perfectly honest, I feel like “this disgusts me” = “this is wrong” is a pretty recent phenomenon.  And it seems to be very tied into how our particular culture thinks about gender and sexuality.  I’m not disgusted by stealing, for instance.  Murder and bodily violence horrifies me, but it doesn’t necessarily disgust me. 

And even though homophobes and I are both human, I can think scatplay and golden showers are disgusting without thinking that those kinks are morally wrong.  Which implies that morality didn’t literally evolve from anything, because if it did, you and I would have to feel the same link as the homobigots.

Comment #1: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  12:10 AM

There are different kinds of moral outrage; the one that piggybacks on disgust, I think, is the one about stuff that has nothing to do with the person being outraged (except, perhaps as it has roots in their own self-disgust or self-loathing). Moral outrage based on grief or anger is also very powerful, but it almost always comes with a component of empathy.

Moral outrage based on disgust is often more in the way of “moral outrage”. Or perhaps it’s only truly experienced by certain kinds of person—that researcher who included concerns with “purity” among the dimensions by which one separated liberals and conservatives may have had a little insight after all.

Comment #2: paul  on  02/17  at  12:18 AM

I very much doubt that “this disgusts me” = “this is wrong” is a recent phenomenon; rather, I think that it being common to realize that they are not equivalent (i.e., widespread ability to discern the two) is relatively recent.

You might want to check out “The Robot’s Rebellion”, I believe that somewhere in the early chapters the author gives a few disturbing examples of exactly the kind o’ thing you’ve noticed.

Comment #3: Forrester  on  02/17  at  12:19 AM

Well, I think people can mature and develop an ability to distinguish between “gross” and “wrong”, but it’s fascinating that it takes sophistication to move into that direction.  People who conflate the two are either children or have the sensibilities of children, i.e. wingnuts.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  12:19 AM

I see the mother as a sad, lonely person who has never received praise for anything she has ever done in her life. And her actions are an understandable, albeit clearly ineffectual, response to the absurd multiple-birth baby fetishism wherein women who have multiple births are lauded as heroes, lionized on teevee, and given fucktons of free shit.

I further believe that the angry responses to her actions are based in large part on people’s discomfort with having the bankrupt reality of this baby fetishism rubbed in their faces.

Comment #5: PhysioProf  on  02/17  at  12:26 AM

What gets lost in all of this is that her situation is so earthshakingly rare that this is but a meaningless freak show.  Beyond the abnormal situation that created the pregnancy, where there were six embryos implanted and there should have been no more than two, there is really nothing to see here.  This story has no public health or moral or ethical significance otherwise. Either she can take care of the resulting brood and there is no story here, or she cannot and they will all be taken away.

In any case, maybe her mom will or can have an escape fund.  She really should get out of there - Nadya is all ready yapping about how she will go back to school and we all know what that means for stressed out, tapped out grandma and grandpa.  It isn’t feminist or even “choice feminism” if your decisions hand their impacts off to others while you tout your rights to be free and unconventional.

Comment #6: Ms Kate  on  02/17  at  12:28 AM

It’s fascinating - and very depressing - that it takes sophistication to move into that direction, but it does - but it’s a strong and I think very natural general urge.

You may say that those who conflate the two have the sensibilities of children, but I’d wager that in most pre-industrial societies the majority of people had similar sensibilities. I think it’s fair to say that it’s part of our genetic code to reject the deformed, the ugly, the different, the “Other”, probably connected to something evolutionary in nature, and it takes some higher education/liberal sensibility to realize that what our gut might tell us isn’t necessarily connected to what’s right and wrong.

Comment #7: Forrester  on  02/17  at  12:33 AM

Yeah, disgust is an emotion—it’s information, a sense that one should examine what is going on.  What one does with that emotion is the important bit.

I can be disgusted by something and decide that it is unimportant, not my business, or something that I probably shouldn’t be disgusted by and work on fine-tuning my responses.  Or that it really is something important that I should avoid, work against, or be upset about in an immediate sense.  It’s what I do with the emotion that’s the important thing.

Comment #8: Punditus Maximus  on  02/17  at  12:37 AM

I very much doubt that “this disgusts me” = “this is wrong” is a recent phenomenon; rather, I think that it being common to realize that they are not equivalent (i.e., widespread ability to discern the two) is relatively recent.

Why is it that you think this?

Looking at anything I know about history, that just doesn’t seem to be the case.

Merely as an example from history, take the Ten Commandments.  None of those moral injunctions really go hand in hand with disgust.  Only worship this one particular god.  No idolatry.  Don’t kill or steal or swear oaths or get all obsessed about somebody else’s stuff.  Respect your parents.  Don’t cheat on your spouse.

All the “eeeeeeeeewwwwww!11!!!” stuff is much further down on the list of stuff you’re not supposed to do, and has a lot more to do with social control and group identity than it does hard and fast morals.

Comment #9: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  01:06 AM

I can be disgusted by something and decide that it is unimportant, not my business, or something that I probably shouldn’t be disgusted by and work on fine-tuning my responses.  Or that it really is something important that I should avoid, work against, or be upset about in an immediate sense.  It’s what I do with the emotion that’s the important thing.

Consider another example: personally, I find (male) gay sex repugnant.  Show me a photo of two guys barebacking and I have no desire to look and feel a bit queasy.

Yet when I tell someone that, occasionally I get the reaction that assumes I’m homophobic, which couldn’t be further from the truth.  I might personally find two guys going at it disgusting, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think they should have the right to do it.  There’s lots of straight sex kinks I find personally disturbing as well and have no desire to see, let alone do, and so long as its a matter between consenting individuals, it’s none of my business.  My approval or disapproval is irrelevant to their freedom and choice.  I don’t complain that there’s gay porn mags, or gay porn at hotels: I simply don’t watch or look because it ain’t my thing.

And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

Comment #10: KeithM  on  02/17  at  01:13 AM

I very much doubt that “this disgusts me” = “this is wrong” is a recent phenomenon; rather, I think that it being common to realize that they are not equivalent (i.e., widespread ability to discern the two) is relatively recent.

Why is it that you think this?

I should have been clearer—I did not mean to imply the rule was “This is wrong, thus this is disgusting,” rather “This is disgusting, thus this is wrong”—in other words, if A, then B, but not vice-versa. I think that a lot of cultural attitudes and practices re homosexuality, masturbation, menstruation, etc. might be attributed in part to ‘natural’ links to disgust and shame. That doesn’t mean that we didn’t figure out some moral rules using reason and empathy, of course. (Also note that those biblical rules like “Thou shalt not kill” tended to get tossed relatively quickly when those that needed killin’ were The Other.)

Comment #11: Forrester  on  02/17  at  01:20 AM

I think it’s fair to say that it’s part of our genetic code to reject the deformed, the ugly, the different, the “Other”, probably connected to something evolutionary in nature, and it takes some higher education/liberal sensibility to realize that what our gut might tell us isn’t necessarily connected to what’s right and wrong.

It’s instinct playing the odds.  Disgust is a primal emotion and instinct, and not just among humans; assorted animals exhibit similar behaviours.  It gets close to evo-psych, but in this case there’s a strong argument that it’s real.  We are repelled by things we find disgusting because part of us associates that with disease, death, whatever, and in a pre-technological world, that’s usually the safe bet.  There’s no evolutionary disadvantage to staying away from a person who looks repugnant, whereas if that person’s problem is due to infection or genetic issues, there’s all sorts of reasons to stay away, either due to the threat of disease to you personally or, if the person is of the other sex, the possibility of passing a problem on to offspring.

Comment #12: KeithM  on  02/17  at  01:21 AM

Also note that those biblical rules like “Thou shalt not kill” tended to get tossed relatively quickly when those that needed killin’ were The Other.

What does this have to do with anything?  It would also be well to note that rules like “homosexuality is gross” tend to get tossed relatively quickly when you meet someone of the same sex that you’re attracted to. 

Just because people do things that are immoral doesn’t mean that they’re not really immoral, or that X group didn’t take that particular rule very seriously.  Incest is one of the most universal human revulsions/immoralities.  And yet it still happens.

Comment #13: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  01:25 AM

I further believe that the angry responses to her actions are based in large part on people’s discomfort with having the bankrupt reality of this baby fetishism rubbed in their faces.

I think you’re right.  Basically, Suleman managed to hold a big carnival mirror up to the whole “Jon and Kate Plus 8”/“14 and Counting” obsession that some people have and point out just how weird and sick it is to lionize people solely because they made out-of-the-mainstream reproductive choices.

Comment #14: Mnemosyne  on  02/17  at  01:29 AM

And again, I’ll ask for some shred of evidence that people of the past were ruled entirely by their senses of revulsion, or that disgust = morality was the way of things until very, very recently.  And I mean historical evidence, not gross overgeneralizations. 

I’m not, by the way, saying that people of the past were 100% awesome and morally perfect.  Just that when you look at moral codes as actually recorded by real people, things that don’t disgust us tend to be much higher priorities than things that do.  And the “ew = wrong” stuff isn’t really about morality per se.  Murder tends to be pretty much across the board considered the absolute worst thing you can do.  Playing with your own shit, enh, as long as I don’t have to come over for dinner…

Comment #15: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  01:30 AM

Opponax: Well heck, Leviticus is filled with many “abominations unto god” such as which creatures could not be eaten or prepared certain ways, leaving seed spilled on the ground or dung unburied in your camp, and of course all the different sex acts punishable by stoning. That also includes concepts of “purity” in women, people who are mangled being banned from the temple, and specifying which forms ritual body mutilation was acceptable. The Kosher and Halal elements are not exclusive to Abrahamic religions. Most religions have specific practices regarding sex and hygiene which are regarded as proper, permitted or taboo.

If disgust is not “moral” in the sense of reciprocity, then it certainly has it’s roots in a sense of self-preservation and cultural identity that has gone hand-in-hand with said moral codes throughout history. It seems to me that morality is almost always stated in relation to others, and as such is the basic framework for any social group, be it family unit, pack, herd, flock, or civilization.

Comment #16: Left_Wing_Fox  on  02/17  at  01:33 AM

Well, I think people can mature and develop an ability to distinguish between “gross” and “wrong”, but it’s fascinating that it takes sophistication to move into that direction.  People who conflate the two are either children or have the sensibilities of children, i.e. wingnuts.

Or, i.e. Leon Kass.  Kass has devoted a ton of ink to what he calls <a >the wisdom of repugnance</a>: that there is value to the “ew, gross!” factor.  Kass uses it primarily to talk about genetic engineering, but it has unsurprisingly reared its head in debates about same-sex marriage, abortion, etc.

Comment #17: evil_fizz  on  02/17  at  01:40 AM

Well heck, Leviticus is filled with many “abominations unto god” such as which creatures could not be eaten or prepared certain ways, leaving seed spilled on the ground or dung unburied in your camp, and of course all the different sex acts punishable by stoning.

Uhhhh, yeah, I believe I mentioned that.  What I said was that you have a certain group of immoral acts which are so absolutely important to call out as wrong that they make the top 10.  And not a single one has anything to do with disgust. 

Then you have a bunch of other stuff which is much further down the list (the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy) which people definitely thought was bad, but not nearly bad enough to make the top 10.  And all those little things, it turns out, have a lot more to do with being ritually clean/unclean, or one’s fitness to belong to a particular tribe or worship god in a certain way, or policies that keep the whole group out of certain kinds of risk, than they do with concepts of morality. 

Disgust, in my opinion, has a lot more to do with social control and tribalism than it has to do with morality. 

And again - I brought up the 10 Commandments as an example, basically because they’re the first “moral code” that comes to immediately to mind.  I suppose I could have gone with the Code of Hammurabi, or Brehon Law, or some other similarly ancient moral code.  But my parents sent me to parochial schools, so this is what you get.  If anyone would like to switch over and talk about another ancient moral code, they are welcome to bring one up.  This has NOTHING WHAT SO FUCKING EVER to do with my own religious views or my views on what morals are best for people to adopt.  It’s really not necessary to lecture me on the pros and cons of Jewish law, because honestly I don’t think any better of it than any of you do.

Comment #18: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  01:46 AM

Also note that those biblical rules like “Thou shalt not kill” tended to get tossed relatively quickly when those that needed killin’ were The Other.

What does this have to do with anything?  It would also be well to note that rules like “homosexuality is gross” tend to get tossed relatively quickly when you meet someone of the same sex that you’re attracted to.

Actually, the rule is “homosexuality is immoral”, and if that code is strongly enough embedded in you, I have a hunch that it doesn’t get tossed relatively quickly even if if you meet someone of the same sex that you’re attracted to.

The part re biblical rules being tossed relatively quickly was just my calling out how easy it is for us to toss our moral code when applying it to different tribes. I think there’s a vague connection between disgust with “icky things” and the ease with which societies dismiss their moral code when dealing with the Other, but it’s true, I can’t prove it.

Comment #19: Forrester  on  02/17  at  01:47 AM

When I go to a particular Chinese grocery, I get grossed out by the smell and by things like chickens and ducks with their heads still on and such.  I still shop there to get items that are priced as specialty items elsewhere.

I think what is “gross” is highly culturally conditioned.  If many Chinese had the same sense of “gross” that we did, they would be unable to fully exploit the food sources in their environment.

Comment #20: Ms Kate  on  02/17  at  01:48 AM

I had the opposite reaction to Ms. Suleman: I’m not disgusted, but I am indeed morally outraged. The photo looks pretty much like I’d guessed: you put eight babies in there, it’s gonna get big. The woman is obviously mad, so it’s hard to hold her fully responsible for her actions, but there’s just no justification for bringing six, let alone fourteen, children into a crowded world, especially when she’s clearly incapable of providing for them financially—and whether she can come anywhere close to providing for them emotionally is highly doubtful

Comment #21: felagund  on  02/17  at  01:51 AM

Disgust, in my opinion, has a lot more to do with social control and tribalism than it has to do with morality.

What I think you’re missing is that in many cultures (including, frankly, large segments of our own), there is little to no distinction between morality and social control/tribalism. You’re absolutely right that the Ten Commandments themselves don’t seem to be connected with ‘disgust’. I’m not sure that’s entirely relevant . . . for some reason, Colbert’s interview with the congressman who angrily demanded the right to put the Ten Commandments put up in public, but couldn’t actually NAME all ten, comes to mind . . . in other words, for great swaths of humanity, moral outrage and claims as to what is morally important is more strongly connected to social control/tribalism/disgust with the icky and the different than it is to “Thou shalt not kill”.

Comment #22: Forrester  on  02/17  at  01:56 AM

the rule is “homosexuality is immoral”

Is it?  The word used in the KJV is “abomination”, which is not even remotely the same thing as “immorality”.  Other translations use the word “sin”, “detestable”, and the like.  Though of course upthread I actually quite openly said that Leviticus mentioned homosexuality as a sin - my point is that it’s much further down on the list of priorities than something like “don’t steal”, which does not typically cause revulsion in normal people. 

if that code is strongly enough embedded in you, I have a hunch that it doesn’t get tossed relatively quickly even if if you meet someone of the same sex that you’re attracted to.

Clearly you’ve never heard of a man called Ted Haggard…

Comment #23: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  02:05 AM

I actually quite openly said that Leviticus mentioned homosexuality as a sin - my point is that it’s much further down on the list of priorities than something like “don’t steal”, which does not typically cause revulsion in normal people.

It may be much further down your list of priorities. If you think there aren’t large swaths of humanity that would rather have a thief for a child, neighbor, or teacher, than a homosexual, then I think you may be living in a fantasy world . . . or, at least, a metropolitan area in a Blue state wink.

I suppose you’d say the same about “don’t covet” as homosexuality, given that “don’t covet” is in the Big Ten as well?

Comment #24: Forrester  on  02/17  at  02:14 AM

What I think you’re missing is that in many cultures (including, frankly, large segments of our own), there is little to no distinction between morality and social control/tribalism.

Of course there is.  Stealing is wrong.  Stealing does not disgust me.  Fast food is disgusting, yet it is not immoral.  I think most people would agree to those three sentences (well aside from the freakjobs who think fast food is yummy, but then they’re a bunch of weirdos).

It’s fun to think I’m the most brilliantest person ever to have lived before.  But I know it’s not true.  Are there some total morons who conflate disgust and morality?  Sure.  But my best guess is that the number of people who do it has remained roughly constant through the ages, barring actual historical evidence to the contrary.  In order to believe that know-nothing mouthbreathers have been the norm through most of human history, I would want to see some evidence of it.  Until then, all I can assume is that other people are largely as intelligent and thoughtful as I am.

Comment #25: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  02:15 AM

It may be much further down your list of priorities.

Open book.  Read words.  Oh, hey, look, “don’t fuck other dudes” isn’t in the first set of most important rules for Jewish people.  It’s way the fuck down there with “eeeewwwww, molluscs!” and “girls are icky, never let them do anything fun”.  All of which are crappy and shouldn’t be in there (funny, unlike the big 10, which aside from all the idolatry garbage still pretty much stands as a basic moral primer, thousands of years later).  But they’re way down at the bottom of the list.

And the folks who are more worried about a gay person than a murderer WEREN’T THE FUCKING ANCIENT HEBREWS WE’RE TALKING ABOUT!

Comment #26: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  02:19 AM

But I know it’s not true.  Are there some total morons who conflate disgust and morality?  Sure.  But my best guess is that the number of people who do it has remained roughly constant through the ages, barring actual historical evidence to the contrary.

My (relative uncontroversial, I think) claim is that in humans, there is a connection automatically made between disgust and morality; it is easy for us (as humans) to conclude that what is disgusting is wrong, and, perhaps more importantly, if one is told that something is immoral, if it seems disgusting, it further reinforces the link. Said behavior may be ‘moronic’ but it is very, very human. It’s not learned behavior—what’s learned behavior is fighting those impulses.

With regard to historical evidence—I don’t think it’d be incorrect to guess that in the 1950s, the vast majority of Americans found homosexuality disgusting and immoral, and that today, fewer find it disgusting, and *considerably* fewer find it immoral. And that to some degree, this is due to consciousness-raising that just because something is icky, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Do you disagree? [I also suspect that in less Westernized cultures, there’s a higher incidence of severe punishment for ‘icky’ acts, or acts which violate general tribal rules, whether it’s racial intermarriage, homosexual acts, nonconformity to religious practices, etc., but I don’t have a pile o’ references at hand.]

Comment #27: Forrester  on  02/17  at  02:30 AM

It may be much further down your list of priorities.

Open book.  Read words.  Oh, hey, look, “don’t fuck other dudes” isn’t in the first set of most important rules for Jewish people.

Fascinating that you think you can figure out what the most important rules are from what’s written down, as if there’s that strong a relationship between the hierarchy in the book and the hierarchy that’s was used/is used in practice.

My main point is the disgust/morality link, and that it is a NATURAL link, and that by your criteria there are large masses of humanity that are ‘morons’—it is not that we’re that much more aware than our ancestors (though I think that in general, we are). But seriously, it’s not my main point—I’m sure that there were some cultures Back In The Day that respected those who questioned authority, thought that their rules were general enough to apply outside their tribe, realized that just because something was gross didn’t mean that it was immoral, etc.

Comment #28: Forrester  on  02/17  at  02:41 AM

Moral outrage based on grief or anger is also very powerful, but it almost always comes with a component of empathy.

There’s also fear and humility in there, which clouds the outrage

Are there some total morons who conflate disgust and morality? 

It’s really not just “total morons” doing this. People conflate disgusting and wrong all the time, on an unconscious level, which is why words like “pure” and “unclean” are used as moral judgments.

Just because people do things that are immoral doesn’t mean that they’re not really immoral, or that X group didn’t take that particular rule very seriously.

Of course not. And the fact that murder is wrong even though it’s not disgusting has nothing to do with unconsciously thinking things are immoral because they gross us out. Disgust and moral outrage don’t have to be inextricably linked just because one often gets confused for the other.

Incest is one of the most universal human revulsions/immoralities.  And yet it still happens.

What’s interesting to me about incest, and demonstrates pretty neatly how we conflate disgust and moral outrage, is that people have a good evolutionary reason to be grossed out by it; it can lead to inbreeding. But we’re still grossed out at the thought of an infertile or gay sibling-couple, and think it just as “immoral” as one that might produce offspring.

Comment #29: junk science  on  02/17  at  02:50 AM

I’m a bit confused by this post, so someone will surely tell me if I’m way off.

But what I am hearing is this: You don’t agree with this woman’s decisions. In fact, the evidence leads you to the conclusion that she is mentally ill and in need of compassion. So as far as she is concerned, you do not feel moral outrage.

However, when looking at the picture of her and her very pregnant abdomen, you feel disgust, such as the disgust that you might feel when looking at gross things like a used tampon or dog poop. Her pregnant body, because she is carrying an abnormally large amount of fetuses and thus does not look like the average pregnant woman, leads you to disgust.

So, and I get that people don’t see a woman with pregnant with octuplets everyday and so there is that curiosity and “Woah!” factor to it, but I am having a hard time with this feeling of disgust you have with a human body. Now, you feel what you feel. But I’m wondering about how this plays in to what we consider normal with bodies, and what we consider disgusting.

You could look at this from the whole feminine perfection angle, but actually I’m looking at this more from the disability angle. I have a disability myself, deafblindness. And I get told all the time “you don’t look blind.” Whatever. But I see the reactions of able-bodied people to others. I used to work for a man with cerebral palsy. One day a friend dropped me off and saw my boss through the window. He talked about how sickened and disgusted he would be if he had to work with this man everyday. I was very hurt by that. Being a part of the disability community gives me plenty of opportunity to experience the disgust people feel with our bodies.

So, there could be a evolutionary component to the disgust we feel when confronted with a dirty tampon or dog poo. The sights and smells may invoke a physical reaction that causes us to move away from the object, perhaps as a defense mechanism to keep us from exposing ourselves to harmful bacteria. But going from the framework that disability is a normal part of the human condition, and there will be a variety of body types, abilities, shapes, whatever in the human population. And I guess a variety of pregnant bodies, too. (Although extremely rare, there are naturallly occuring higher order muliple pregnancies. If this woman had conceived these children naturally, and without all the minority, poor, six other children baggage, would looking at her still disgust you?) It seems that this flinching reaction to a body situation outside of the norm is a cultural one. Which, perhaps comes from moral outrage? I’m just thinking outloud.

I guess one could argue that disgust at disability or physical abnormality could be evolutionary. Natural selection, maybe? But we all know of people who are physically disgusted by the sight of a black person or a mixed-race couple and that is entirely culturally based. I think it is a strong possibility that the disgust people have in regards to people with disabilities (or other atypical body situations) is also a cultural construct rooted from some form of “moral outrage.”

Comment #30: Lexie  on  02/17  at  03:21 AM

Am I the only one who knows the actual Ten Commandments, the unbroken version of the tablets? Look at the “whoring” bit.

Comment #31: hf  on  02/17  at  03:42 AM

The evolution of disgust into moral outrage is treated pretty well in Hauser’s book “Moral Minds,”  which
is a pretty interesting book that examines the idea that we have a genetically-based moral grammar that is heavily parameterized by our culture.

Comment #32: Rachel  on  02/17  at  03:46 AM

People who conflate the two are either children or have the sensibilities of children, i.e. wingnuts.

I dunno that I’d insult children that way, personally.

That Calvin and Hobbes comic comes to mind, where Cal finds the sludgepit and goes all “ewwwwwwwww”, and then two panels later he’s happily neck-deep in crud going “EWWWWWWWWWWWWW!”

But yeah conservatives definitely love to hijack that impulse as it travels from revulsion to acceptance and run it straight into intolerance and hatred.

Comment #33: Dan  on  02/17  at  04:07 AM

But we all know of people who are physically disgusted by the sight of a black person or a mixed-race couple and that is entirely culturally based.

I think the importance attached to sites like water fountains and swimming pools in the segregation era also shows the extent to which “disgust” has been and probably still is a factor in racism.

Comment #34: FlipYrWhig  on  02/17  at  04:09 AM

It’s really not just “total morons” doing this. People conflate disgusting and wrong all the time, on an unconscious level, which is why words like “pure” and “unclean” are used as moral judgments.

True enough, but the real dividing line is between those who are prepared to examine and judge their disgust and those who immediately seek to rationalise it as moral law.

Consider KeithM’s response to male gay sex above.  I’m willing to wager he doesn’t find depictions of lesbian sex repugnant at all.  I’m in much the same boat - I suspect many sane straight males bought up in a homophobic culture think the same.

However, I’ve run into people online who have tried to argue that lesbianism was fine but gay sex was morally wrong.  Naturally enough, their argument was totally laughable - it was obviously an attempt to deal with the above reaction without examining it.

My emotions are suspect.  My prejudices may be incorrect and unfounded.  My visceral reactions are not a good guide to behaviour.  It is not what I feel that determine who I am; it is how I chose to deal with it. 

Growing up in typical 80s high schools, I absorbed from my peers the attitude that “fags” were contemptible, “Jews” money-grubbing, and Maori dangerous and suspect. I’m an adult now. I choose to change, and to do my best not to pass on such attitudes.

Comment #35: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/17  at  04:13 AM

Problems:

At least one person has said that linking disgust and immorality is childish. But children find disgusting things fascinating. Fart jokes. Urine in the swimming pool. Picking the bloody stuff out of the bathroom trash can and asking mommy what it is. (“Tampon. Do NOT touch!”). Squishy things like mud and algae and half-decomposed plant materials. Kids that age also have a sense of morality forming. It is important that punishments be fair; that lies not be told; that friends share.
Please, don’t attribute the folly of adults to children. I see no overlap between disgusting=funny and interesting and children’s moral pictures.

Furthermore, isn’t violence disgusting? Think for a moment; it’s not sanitized television images. It’s the smell of copper/iron and rot as blood scents the air. It’s intestines spilling, cartilage revealed. It’s screams, moans, and worse, the horrible gurgles of punctured lungs foaming as air and blood froth together. It is the battlefield three days later, when there weren’t enough survivors to bury the dead. Decay and carrion-eaters, and mud made of blood soaked ground trampled in the fracas.
However, I will say that the people who told the stories laying out the gory details of violence may well have waned to impart the message war is hell! by giving us the disgust.
Even poison is disgusting. Read the actual symptoms of various poisons.
And death always mean voiding the bowels.

And what about things that disgust us that most people would consider a moral good? Childbirth sounds absolutely disgusting to me. And I’ve collected urine samples for medical tests; it’s gross, but I never questioned the morality of it. Rather, I’m glad to live in an era where so much can be analyzed easily, and I admire the lab technicians who run the tests. I believe most people think the same, if they bother to think of it at all.

There’s a connection; I don’t deny this. But it is learned.

Comment #36: Samantha Vimes  on  02/17  at  04:22 AM

But yeah conservatives definitely love to hijack that impulse as it travels from revulsion to acceptance and run it straight into intolerance and hatred.

I think what many of us are saying is that the impulse running from revulsion to intolerance is a helluva lot stronger than revulsion to acceptance. No “hijacking” required . . . Calvin and Hobbes notwithstanding smile.

Comment #37: Forrester  on  02/17  at  04:23 AM

I would agree that much of what disgust us is culturally conditioned. It’s interesting to me to see how quickly straight men jump to anal sex when they think of gay men. I think that there is something in their disgust that points to a deep insecurities with their own bodies.
Anyhow, and I hope this isn’t rude, but has anyone seen the new Joss Whedon show “Dollhouse”? I’d be curious to see a discussion on here about it. I know Whedon is coming from a pro-feminist stance, and I do see some feminist subtext already, but all the same there is still quite a bit about it that bothered me. The premiere is on Hulu now.

Comment #38: AdamN  on  02/17  at  05:16 AM

One way to make moral progress is to identify psychological processes that cause us to form moral beliefs, but that are systematically unreliable in leading us towards the truth.  (We can determine this by looking at whether they generally lead us to the truth in nonmoral cases, or by seeing if they lead to so many differing moral beliefs that there’s no way that all those beliefs can be true.)  Then we can revise the beliefs that result from the unreliable processes. 

I think that this is basically the way of approaching disgust you’re suggesting here.  And I think it’s absolutely the right way to go. 

(It’s also an approach to moral philosophy that I hope will provide me with a large number of future publications; we’ll see how that goes.)

Comment #39: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  02/17  at  05:55 AM

I think the point is that you (in the general sense) can judge people for their immorality, their impracticality, their offensiveness, and their just plain poor taste, but those factors don’t always have to act in unison to make someone awful.  Nothing to be surprised by with that, since it’s largely in the matter of opinion.

Someone up there mentioned gay porn.  Hell, most straight porn doesn’t turn me on, and I’m the target audience for most of the mainstream stuff (aside from my inclusion in the too-cheap-to-buy-it demographic.)  I’m as choosy with my porn as I am with music, movie, television, websites, friends, clothes, and the route I drive to work.

The question someone with a website like this one has to ask is, can I comment on this when I have a searchable history that shows I’m generally judgmental of those who judge people for superficial reasons?  I say, why the hell not?  I don’t come here to see how consistent Ms. Marcotte is, but to see what she sees in the world.  I’m inconsistent, she’s inconsistent, but we all have underlying principles that make us question and value our inconsistencies.  Nothing about that is going to cause us to have nervous breakdowns, I suspect.

Comment #40: 3letterjon  on  02/17  at  07:34 AM

Fascinating that you think you can figure out what the most important rules are from what’s written down, as if there’s that strong a relationship between the hierarchy in the book and the hierarchy that’s was used/is used in practice.

And it’s fascinating that you think you can figure out what the most important rules are based on gross overgeneralization based on nothing but what your personal instincts tell you must have been the case.

When we’re talking about people who lived a long time ago and are no longer alive to personally attest to their concept of morality, the best way to find out what that was is to look at the records they left behind.  NOT to just decide, “oh, come on, all people before 1964 were a bunch of bigoted morons who’d sooner murder you than look at you.” 

If I say, “I dunno, I’m not sure disgust = morality is all that old an idea, it certainly isn’t reflected in any extant historical moral code I’m familiar with, nor is it even reflected in the morality of my own culture aside from the ravings of bigoted morons”, you can provide evidence to the contrary if you want.  You can’t just say “nuh uhhhhh!” and expect to win me over.

Comment #41: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  09:48 AM

I would agree that much of what disgust us is culturally conditioned.

I think this is really important to remember.  For instance, most people are at least somewhat disgusted by PDAs and people being overly amorous in public.  On the other hand, even a century ago most of us would have grown up in households where we would have heard or even seen adults having sex on a pretty regular basis.  It’s very, very recent that society has become affluent enough to guarantee separate sleeping quarters for married adults.  Revulsion isn’t written in our genes.

Comment #42: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  09:56 AM

I do believe “abomination” was just a way of saying “really gross sin”.  The punishment was still death, so it’s not like they didn’t take is seriously.

That what disgusts us is culturally conditioned doesn’t change the fact that the emotion is biological. 

Emotions=biological and genetic.

What prompts them=culturally conditioned. 

Animals have emotions, including disgust.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  10:34 AM

Also, that someone can rise above biological urges is indisputable.  Though often I suppose it relies on using other biological urges.  Anorexics rise above the urge to eat by employing disgust.  Really, the scientific evidence shows that emotions actually war with each other in the brain—-FMRI scans show this.  I imagine sex happens because the urge towards lust overcomes the urge towards disgust.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  10:37 AM

Samantha, that actually depends on the age of the child.  Kids grow through phases of squeamishness and love of disgusting.  Interestingly, they also go through moral phases.

Comment #45: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  10:39 AM

Oh, I think that the capacity to be disgusted is biologically based, as just about all our emotions seem to be. 

I’m just not sure how this relates at all to morality as it’s usually understood.  Especially when you start talking about cross-cultural or long term assumptions.  I’m mainly concerned about the blanket generalization that “people used to be like X, but we are special unique snowflakes who can make higher decisions.”  That can be a really fun conceit, but it’s ultimately not a terribly worthwhile line of thought.

Comment #46: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  10:42 AM

So much of what disgusts us is just misogynist dogwhistle: Like all the people who looooove to compare breastfeeding in public to urinating in public. Like all of the people who look at the pregnant belly of a single-fetus pregnancy and declare “eww gross, stretch marks?! WTF?”

My feeling on seeing the photos was definitely “eww!” but more because it looked painful and dangerous and not at all comfortable.

Comment #47: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/17  at  10:59 AM

Oh, there’s a long, well-established body of scientific evidence that shows that people associate the concepts of “purity” and “morality”, and it’s cross-cultural and almost certainly biological.  Every culture has taboos about sex and food that take on moral implications.  Feeling morally offended is experienced as disgust—-people crinkle their noses and squint their faces in response.

That doesn’t mean that all moral offenses are matters of impurity.  Reciprocity is a major moral issue, and you can get sophisticated with ethics, etc.  But violations are still experienced as those of disgust.  Someone who doesn’t reciprocate gets a disgust response.  (Another day without a thank you note for that wedding gift?! Nose wrinkle.) Vile, unethical behavior gets a disgust response.  (They’ve marched the rapist into the courtroom and noses wrinkle.)  You can see how moral sense latched onto disgust evolutionarily, because it’s useful to expunge moral violations like it was bad food.

You could have a field day reading the genuine (not evo psych blather) sociological research into this.  But of course what we find disgusting—-morally and otherwise—-is culturally conditioned.  Sexual arousal is a biological function, but what causes it is culturally conditioned. 

The disgust/morality link is not a pleasant part of our species.  It’s been used throughout history to maintain the moral righteousness of bigotry—-the hated group is constructed as disgusting, and therefore shunning them is moral.  That’s why the Jesus and lepers thing was so mind-blowing for its time.  Only by examining our ugly parts unflinchingly do we have a hope of overcoming them.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  11:02 AM

All life processes are disgusting.

They are also wonderful in equal measure.

The real perversion and error is to deny this ambivalence.

Comment #49: wapsie  on  02/17  at  11:21 AM

I guess what my critique here is is that I feel like disgust correlates to certain kinds of morality, and it’s more interesting to analyze the ramifications of that than to just pretend that the reason we think stealing is wrong is because it physically disgusts us.  Which it maybe does if you look at brain scans, but it doesn’t in any sort of conscious way, as watching a dog shit would.

Looking at what kinds of morality people are likely to consciously associate with disgust, it tends to be aspects of social control.  We find the photos of Suleman’s litter-bearing belly disgusting because of a general revulsion in connection with women’s bodies in general.  Women’s bodies are a major vector of patriarchal control over sexuality and reproduction.  This is a pretty interesting idea, and a worthwhile thing to wonder about if you’re interested in social control, tribalism, oppression, and the othering of large segments of a population.  What happens when you look at brain scans of people who are in the process of being told about a local mugging is a lot less interesting to me.

Comment #50: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  11:21 AM

I’m mainly concerned about the blanket generalization that “people used to be like X, but we are special unique snowflakes who can make higher decisions.”

I don’t know that anyone is really saying that. As Amanda said, in order to overcome one emotion (disgust) you basically have to use another emotion (lust, compassion, coldness or what have you). In other words, we are still today in the thrall of emotion, just like our forebears. We might have a slightly different take on them, however.

Comment #51: atheist  on  02/17  at  12:20 PM

I’m not pretending anything.  I was just saying that we’d be a very different species if morality was related to anger or sadness more than disgust.  Think of how gay marriage was an election driver in 2004, and anti-war forces couldn’t overcome that.  Big flaw in our non-programming.  Disgust is a powerful tool for whipping up moral outrage for a reason.

Comment #52: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  12:36 PM

Consider KeithM’s response to male gay sex above.  I’m willing to wager he doesn’t find depictions of lesbian sex repugnant at all.  I’m in much the same boat - I suspect many sane straight males bought up in a homophobic culture think the same.

Oh, I can think of assorted ways to rationalize it, and one or more of them might very well be correct[1].  Same, as I mentioned, for assorted straight sex practices.  Might entirely be due to the culture I grew up in, might be because I’m wired to be on the far left end of the Kinsey scale, could be any combination.  The important thing is what I do with it, and I choose not to let it factor into what I think of a persona’s morality or worth as an individual.  I’d expect some people to be turned off by some of my own private kinks, so it’s what I’m asking for myself.

Comment #53: KeithM  on  02/17  at  12:54 PM

We find the photos of Suleman’s litter-bearing belly disgusting because of a general revulsion in connection with women’s bodies in general.

I actually didn’t find that picture disgusting, but if I had to guess about why, I’d guess it was because it was “much too big”—less that it happens to be a pregnant woman and more that it depicts a human body with unusual parts.  I was just seeing promos for a TLC show about the world’s heaviest man, and they have many shows about people living with unusual bodies (very little people, very heavy people, people with different numbers of limbs, people with exotic diseases).  I’m not sure that the picture would be differently received if she had the same body in the same pose but was known _not_ to be pregnant.

So I’d be tempted to connect it to revulsion in connection with disability rather than to a woman-specific revulsion.

Comment #54: FlipYrWhig  on  02/17  at  12:57 PM

Sorry, left out the footnote I intended:

1.  As I’ve thought about why I think like that over the years, one reason I keep coming to is that in the case of lesbian sex, I can’t mentally place myself in the picture as one of the participants, therefore there’s more distance and I don’t get turned off by the act.  On a deeper level, it’s also because with a scene of lesbian sex, I can mentally place myself in the room with said women and be aroused by the fantasy that when they’re done, I can join in with one or both. With gay male sex, because I share equipment with the participants, I get squicked because they’re doing things I wouldn’t do and wouldn’t participate in.

Comment #55: KeithM  on  02/17  at  01:01 PM

Consider KeithM’s response to male gay sex above.  I’m willing to wager he doesn’t find depictions of lesbian sex repugnant at all.

In terms of body parts, although there’s plenty of disgust associated culturally with the vagina (think of that Ace of Spades blogdude), there’s even more disgust associated culturally with the anus.  And there’s some associated with the penis too.

Comment #56: FlipYrWhig  on  02/17  at  01:02 PM

I can’t mentally place myself in the picture as one of the participants, therefore there’s more distance and I don’t get turned off by the act.

But shouldn’t that feeling of “more distance” mean that you have more trouble getting turned _on_?

Comment #57: FlipYrWhig  on  02/17  at  01:04 PM

“Incest is one of the most universal human revulsions/immoralities.  And yet it still happens. “

Someone forgot to tell the ancient Egyptians that.

Or the Greek gods. smile

Comment #58: Mhorag  on  02/17  at  01:28 PM

no, i can definitely see amanda’s arguement here. deep deep down, in some lizard brain part of all of us, there’s some sort of little gross = bad reaction.

for instance, in my personal case (back in my party girl days), i’ve noticed that i’ll feel a twinge of (moral?) superiority when a friend has drunken herself into a vomiting, disgusting stupor and i haven’t. even though i know it’s just a more or less random combination of factors: maybe i ate more absorbent food that day, maybe i drank more water between beverages, maybe my personal body chemistry happens to process liquor a little more efficiently. i wouldn’t feel the urge to legislate against vomiting, of course, but i can see how, occuring in the wrong mindset, it could become just that black and white.

Comment #59: akzidenzgrotesk  on  02/17  at  01:47 PM

which is not to say it’s a good thing! black and white thinking is what’s really the problem with the fundies and the wingnuts, not what they may or may not find disgusting or immoral.

Comment #60: akzidenzgrotesk  on  02/17  at  01:51 PM

“but there’s just no justification for bringing six, let alone fourteen, children into a crowded world, especially when she’s clearly incapable of providing for them financially—”

*sighs* i wish I could be surprised at the knee-jerk abandonment of pro-choice principles and the embracing of classism.

I am surprised that *so many* people believe themselves to be the moral authority on who gets to have children, how many they can have and how much in terms of resources they’re allowed to use so as not to offend the self-appointed moral authorities. They sound positively Limbaughian the moment they feel someone has crossed their arbitrary lines.

Assuming that she is in some way unstable, shouldn’t we be focusing this disdain in the doctors?

Comment #61: Gypsy Lee  on  02/17  at  02:27 PM

  I can’t mentally place myself in the picture as one of the participants, therefore there’s more distance and I don’t get turned off by the act.

But shouldn’t that feeling of “more distance” mean that you have more trouble getting turned _on_?

Not at all, because putting aside the sex act itself, what is there?  An image of two (or more) attractive horny naked women.  As a straight male, that’s pretty much all I need.  Adding a male is a distraction.

Comment #62: KeithM  on  02/17  at  02:39 PM

“Incest is one of the most universal human revulsions/immoralities.  And yet it still happens. “

It happens all the friggin’ time, and not necessarily as a matter of force either.  What does that suggest?

My take - there is *no* biological constraint against incest, as in having sex with relatives.  There are not even any major genetic reasons to avoid it, as long as it is unusual. There are, however, almost always severe social taboos against it because it is a threat to family and social structures.  Almost always - it is not completely universal.

It reminds me a lot of historical reactions to homosexuality, only more so.

Comment #63: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/17  at  02:48 PM

I don’t know that anyone is really saying that.

That’s what I took Forrester to be saying.  Way upthread I wondered how ancient the whole “two dudes fucking disgusts me, therefore it is immoral” (and the like) really is.  That’s mainly stuff I heard growing up down south surrounded by know-nothing ingrates, but I’ve not seen a whole lot of “appeal to ickiness” reading up on this sort of thing.  Forrester seemed to be insisting that, without actually citing anything, he just knew people back in the day were a bunch of primitive morons who couldn’t rub two rhetorical sticks together, and it is only recently that we have been able to reason enough to figure out that being disgusted by something and thinking it is morally wrong are two different things.  Which is pretty blatantly untrue, and a relatively dangerous idea in my opinion.

Comment #64: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  03:05 PM

Someone forgot to tell the ancient Egyptians that.

Ancient Egyptian royalty married siblings to each other for reasons that had nothing to do with the siblings being attracted to each other or in love.  It all had to do with bloodlines and lines of succession and the like.  Of course, these marriages were still expected to produce heirs, but still.  Ancient Egyptians had an incest taboo, there were just loopholes.

Comment #65: The Opoponax  on  02/17  at  03:11 PM

We find the photos of Suleman’s litter-bearing belly disgusting because of a general revulsion in connection with women’s bodies in general.

No, I disagree.  The pictures of her are disgusting because of the uncanny valley issue. Suleman is recognizably a pregnant human being, but she’s also just off of what pregnant human beings look like, the gap between the wide range of normal pregnant women (attractive or not, that’s not the issue here) and her is just wide enough that looking at her is unsettling.  Extreme plastic surgery often makes me queasy for that reason.  Sure, you “fixed” yourself to look more like some weird ideal, but now you don’t look quite human anymore.  Between the plastic surgery face and giant belly, she’s like a cartoonish exaggeration of herself, and it’s disturbing. 

Prior to her surgery, she was fine-looking.  Not disturbing at all.  By the way, that whole website is full of pictures that bank off what I’m saying, for better or for worse—-a lot of plastic surgery makes you look just off.  I think that fact that it’s a choice makes it more unsettling, like peering into someone’s mind and seeing their high levels of body dysmorphia.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/17  at  03:13 PM

I don’t know KeithM. I have a lack of distance from heterosexual sex, in the sense that I can identify with one of the participants. But as a pretty much kinsey 6 gay male, I am not grossed out by male-female vaginal sex (or lesbian sex for that matter). I think the reason for your disgust and my lack of it is simply that we both grew up in hetero-normative society
Anal sex is just as disgusting as vaginal sex, blowjobs, or cunnilingus, they all involve body parts used for other functions that we culturally associate with them. But of course homophobia and sexism in our culture trains us to see certain body parts as more troubling then others. (I find it really interesting that you originally mentioned barebacking and not just anal sex btw. I think there may be something to unpack there).

Comment #67: AdamN  on  02/17  at  03:24 PM

My take - there is *no* biological constraint against incest, as in having sex with relatives.  There are not even any major genetic reasons to avoid it, as long as it is unusual. There are, however, almost always severe social taboos against it because it is a threat to family and social structures.  Almost always - it is not completely universal.

Some research indicates that there is actually an “anti-incest” effect: there’s a psychological constraint against incest that arises between people brought up together.  One study indicated that children raised in a collective environment (so, pretty much as siblings even if they weren’t actually related) were less likely to pair up than an otherwise similar group of people not raised together.  The critical factor is that this had to have started when they were very young, so that they see each other as siblings before the onset of puberty.  If they aren’t brought up together, even if they are siblings, that effect doesn’t happen.

Which, if you think about it, makes a great deal of sense evolutionarily speaking.  Having an aversion to someone you’ve been raised with, that is locked in before either of you reaches reproductive age,  reduces population inbreeding.  The fact that this happens with non-relatives as well a blood siblings, and seems to form before a person would be fully exposed to the cultural disapproval of incest (who talks to a five year old about that…matter of fact, how does a five year old even understand that)  indicates it’s likely inherent.

Comment #68: KeithM  on  02/17  at  03:31 PM

Pam: Sex with you is really a Kafka-esque experience.
Alvy Singer: Oh. Thank you.
Pam: I mean that as a compliment.

“We use a large, vibrating egg”

Comment #69: wapsie  on  02/17  at  03:34 PM

(I find it really interesting that you originally mentioned barebacking and not just anal sex btw. I think there may be something to unpack there).

Don’t read too much into it: I was just using slang.  Anal sex is one of my “Oh, gross” things, regardless of who is involved and what accessories may be used.

Comment #70: KeithM  on  02/17  at  03:35 PM

junk science: What’s interesting to me about incest, and demonstrates pretty neatly how we conflate disgust and moral outrage, is that people have a good evolutionary reason to be grossed out by it; it can lead to inbreeding. But we’re still grossed out at the thought of an infertile or gay sibling-couple, and think it just as “immoral” as one that might produce offspring.

The instinctual revulsion against incest is caused by the Westermarck effect; in short, you’re extremely unlikely to be sexually attracted to anyone you spent the first few years of your life in close proximity with. This is close to the incest taboo, but it’s not the same—kibbutzim which raised unrelated children together discovered that they invariably got together with people from outside that group, while siblings separated from birth will not experience the effect.

This is important, because while we can understand that incest leads to birth defects, and justify our revulsion at thoughts of sex with close relatives, this justification is after-the-fact. Non-sapient animals respond to their instincts without being capable of understanding the reasons behind them. The culture we pile up around the instinct isn’t the root cause.

This sort of thing makes me try to imagine what our culture would be if it were built on different instincts, different primary emotions. If we were more like rats, for instance, we wouldn’t have birth defects due to homozygous recessive traits, or the Westermarck effect, or incest taboos. If we were more like scavengers, we wouldn’t be revolted by decomposing food or rotting meat; if we wouldn’t describe corrupt politicians as “rotten”, would we map on another concept? If we were more like rabbits and ate our own feces, would we lack our sense of disgust? What would our culture look like then? If we were bred through r-selection rather than K-selection, we wouldn’t have an urge to put much effort into offspring, or even care which ones were ours. (Then again, maybe sapience requires K-selection.) If we were nocturnal, would we lack an innate fear of the dark? What kind of horror movies would we make if darkness wasn’t scary? What would we use as a metaphor for mystery, if not darkness?

Comment #71: grendelkhan  on  02/17  at  03:42 PM

“Don’t read too much into it: I was just using slang.”
Yeah but, and this by no means an attack at you personally, you used THAT slang. Isn’t it Freud who suggested that an early stage of our sexual development is connected to pleasure in that area of our bodies? But then later as we mature our culture loads different meanings and associations with certain parts of our anatomy.

Comment #72: AdamN  on  02/17  at  03:46 PM

KeithM: Honestly, I think it’s about being shocked. I assume that you’ve seen a lot more straight and all-female porn than gay porn; I’m pretty sure that if you saw as much gay porn, you might not be turned on, but you wouldn’t be spooked.

And as a footnote, it appears not to have made me gay. So I learned something else as well.

PiaToR: My take - there is *no* biological constraint against incest, as in having sex with relatives.  There are not even any major genetic reasons to avoid it, as long as it is unusual. There are, however, almost always severe social taboos against it because it is a threat to family and social structures.  Almost always - it is not completely universal.

Nope. Check the references in the article on the Westermarck effect. You’re right in that there’s no biological constraint against having sex with relatives, but there is, as KeithM also mentioned, a biological constraint against having sex with people you spent your early childhood with, which is very close. It’s like the fact that we don’t actually crave sugars, we crave sweet-tasting, brightly-colored things, which were presumably the same thing before the invention of candy.

Comment #73: grendelkhan  on  02/17  at  04:02 PM

I’m pretty sure that if you saw as much gay porn, you might not be turned on, but you wouldn’t be spooked.

Oh, I wouldn’t say spooked.  Personally distasteful.  And no doubt if I saw more of it I’d become more blasé about it.  I’ve enough experience in dealing with gross things (I’ve been in other people’s blood up to my elbows and scooped human brain parts off the floor) to know that if I can get used to that, seeing a bunch of guys get it on is immensely trivial.

The thing about porn though, and this goes for some of the straight-sex stuff as well, is that that there’s a reinforcement effect: if I don’t like something, I have no reason to look for it in porn, therefore there’s no reason for me to see it, therefore no reason to get used to it.  And as far as I’m concerned, I have no obligation to.  That’s where I part with a lot of anti-porn activists: if I don’t like it, I don’t watch it or go looking for it.

Comment #74: KeithM  on  02/17  at  05:02 PM

You’re right in that there’s no biological constraint against having sex with relatives, but there is, as KeithM also mentioned, a biological constraint against having sex with people you spent your early childhood with, which is very close. It’s like the fact that we don’t actually crave sugars, we crave sweet-tasting, brightly-colored things, which were presumably the same thing before the invention of candy.

It’s one of the little ironies of biology that while in terms of the species over the long term inbreeding isn’t necessarily a positive, in terms of the individual over the short term it is: the closer someone’s genetics are to yours, the more likely that you’ll be compatible for reproduction.  So evolutionary pressures have to balance out the need to prevent inbreeding with the requirement to stop an organism from wasting energy doing the horizontal mambo with other organisms that might be too distant genetically.

The Westermarck effect is, in essence, an evolutionary kludge that urges us to seek out someone different, but not too different.

All the other crap that gets piled on top of that (racism, how close is too close as a relative, and so on) is human culture taking a perfectly comprehensible and necessary biological effect and elaborating on it, sometimes to offensive levels (laws against mixed dating or marriages), and sometimes to absurdities (people getting bent out of shape that step-siblings, who aren’t related at all, sometimes do the horizontal mambo).

Comment #75: KeithM  on  02/17  at  05:14 PM

Opo, I did say this about 30 posts ago:

My main point is the disgust/morality link, and that it is a NATURAL link, and that by your criteria there are large masses of humanity that are ‘morons’—it is not that we’re that much more aware than our ancestors (though I think that in general, we are). But seriously, it’s not my main point—I’m sure that there were some cultures Back In The Day that respected those who questioned authority, thought that their rules were general enough to apply outside their tribe, realized that just because something was gross didn’t mean that it was immoral, etc.

I tend to think that we’re less tribal (as a whole) now than we were a few thousand years ago, but perhaps not . . . perhaps, collectively, we’re as ignorant now as thousands of years ago. However, you seem to be a ‘glass-half-full guy”, claiming you believe our forebearers were as *sophisticated* as we are now, and that only a small group of morons connects disgust with morality . . . I’m afraid we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Comment #76: Forrester  on  02/17  at  05:22 PM

Re: biological and cultural varieties of “incest”—my wife and I have very different views on how we would react if we were to discover that through some series of far-fetched coincidences it turned out that we were actually half-siblings or something.  I’m reasonably certain I wouldn’t care about it.  She gets the nose-wrinkling effect.

Comment #77: FlipYrWhig  on  02/17  at  05:29 PM

Some research indicates that there is actually an “anti-incest” effect: there’s a psychological constraint against incest that arises between people brought up together.  One study indicated that children raised in a collective environment (so, pretty much as siblings even if they weren’t actually related) were less likely to pair up than an otherwise similar group of people not raised together.

If you’re talking about the Israeli kibbutz stuff, I’ve seen that demolished.  Account for remixing of teens as they go through army service, and they tended to be as likely to hook up within the kibbutz as outside it.

Comment #78: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/17  at  06:02 PM

Ah, here we go:

“Another theory is the Westermarck effect, first proposed by Edvard Westermarck, that children reared together, regardless of biological relationship, form a sentimental attachment that is by its nature non-erotic.[14] Melford Spiro argued that his observions that unrelated children reared together on Israeli Kibbutzim nevertheless avoided one another as sexual partners confirmed the Westermarck effect.[15] According to another study, however, out of 2516 marriages documented in Israel, only 200 were between couples reared in the same kibbutz. These marriages occurred after young adults reared on kibbutzim had served in the military and encountered tens of thousands of other potential mates, and 200 marriages is higher than what would be expected by chance. Of these 200 marriages, five were between men and women who had been reared together for the first six years of their lives. This research disconfirms the Westermarck hypothesis.[16]”

I’d regard the Westermarck hypothesis as unproven science.  There’s an argument which applied to homosexuality which applies here - why do so many societies have to make such a strong taboo out of prohibiting it if the temptation isn’t a major issue?

Comment #79: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  02/17  at  06:13 PM

Okay, Amanda, when you rephrased it, that we get disgusted when morally offended, I got what you were getting at better.

Comment #80: Samantha Vimes  on  02/18  at  01:59 AM

Just another data point on how disgust is socially conditioned: babies, toddler, small children; excrement and vomit. They have to be carefully taught.

Comment #81: paul  on  02/18  at  11:20 AM

I haven’t yet seen tangible results from my attempts to carefully teach excrement and vomit.  raspberry

Comment #82: FlipYrWhig  on  02/18  at  11:56 AM

I believe that there could be a genetic difference in what people find disgusting.  When I first volunteered in the ER in college I was surprised when a fellow volunteer told me that he left a stitching-up of a minor flesh wound that we were watching because he thought he was going to throw up if he stayed, and which sight didn’t affect me in the slightest.

Comment #83: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  02/18  at  02:15 PM

FlipYrWhig - there’s actually an episode of HOUSE that deals with that issue. a young married couple comes in with similar symptoms, and nobody can figure out what the problem is for the whole episode. in the end, it turns out they both have a genetic condition inherited from their father, who it turns out had an affair with the wife’s mother, who lived next door when they were growing up. the wife was freaked out by the idea and left the guy, but he was just devastated and didn’t understand how things had changed.

Comment #84: akzidenzgrotesk  on  02/18  at  04:24 PM

I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused.

Comment #85: Ms Kate  on  02/18  at  06:03 PM

PiaToR: I’d regard the Westermarck hypothesis as unproven science.

Science is always unproven. That’s why they call it science.

There’s an argument which applied to homosexuality which applies here - why do so many societies have to make such a strong taboo out of prohibiting it if the temptation isn’t a major issue?

Presumably the same reason we have to teach small children not to wallow in their own vomit and excrement, and the reason people are trained to be obedient, even though forming dominance hierarchies is common in hominids.

Did you find anything on the differential success of Shim-pua marriages depending on whether or not the woman was adopted before a particular age?

Comment #86: grendelkhan  on  02/18  at  06:05 PM

FlipYrWhig - there’s actually an episode of HOUSE that deals with that issue. a young married couple comes in with similar symptoms, and nobody can figure out what the problem is for the whole episode. in the end, it turns out they both have a genetic condition inherited from their father, who it turns out had an affair with the wife’s mother, who lived next door when they were growing up. the wife was freaked out by the idea and left the guy, but he was just devastated and didn’t understand how things had changed.

You don’t have to go fictional.  It was reported in the UK not too long ago about a couple, about to be married, who were not only brother and sister separated as infants…they were fraternal twins.

Yeah, that’s as close a relation as it is possible to get before we get Heinleinesque science that allows opposite sex clones.

Comment #87: KeithM  on  02/19  at  04:16 AM
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