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Next entry: Bamboo Review: Battle: LA: Semicolon Previous entry: Food Saturdays: Er Sunday Edition

Padded bras, the requiring of and banning of, discussed here

Early morning amusements: Salon caught Fox News being taken in by a satirical article, and reprinting it as straight news.  Not-so-amusing is that they did it as straightforward hate-mongering, and still have not taken the story down or apologized for it. 

The story, which is still featured on Fox News’ Fox Nation website, was illustrated with a picture of a woman’s mid-section and carried the headline “Pakistan: Islamic Clerics Protest Women Wearing Padded Bras as ‘Devil’s Cushions.’” The lead of the Fox Nation story, which sources the piece to the Indian news website sify.com, reads:

The Council of Islamic Ideology in Pakistan has protested the use of padded and colourful bras by Muslim women, and recommended that Pakistani Muslim researchers should try to invent an innerwear that makes female assets unnoticeable.

The problem is, if one takes the time to track the story back to its source, the whole thing is an obvious Onion-style satire—a fact first pointed out by Arif Rafiq of the Pakistan Policy Blog.

Naturally, the comments are filled up with wingnuts using this as an excuse to lambast every Muslim in the world.  Salon quoted one commenter calling Islam a “cult”, just to give you an idea of the levels of stupid and bigoted we’re dealing with here.  Yet again, I find myself irritated lately, because it’s not like I’m Team Islam or anything, since I think all religions are pretty silly.  But American conservatives aren’t making the case against religion.  (LULZ.)  They’re just playing the game of “my made-up bullshit is better than your made-up bullshit”. 

Most of the panels/speakers I saw at the Women in the World Summit were awesome, but by far the most troubling—-though definitely interesting at parts—-panel was one hosted by Andrew Sullivan titled “The Multiculturalism Debate: Is Europe Stigmatizing the Veil?”  It was supposed to be a debate over banning the niqab, which is a face veil, and while some pains were made to try to differ between wearing a niqab and wearing a hijab of any sort that covers your hair completely or just partially, the distinctions got blurry. Some good points were made by Liesl Gerntholtz about how bans—-or requirements—-on religious garb of any sort usually serve only to limit women’s movement, because women who object to the requirement, or are forced to do so by their families, will just find themselves staying at home or being forced to more often.  Ayaan Hirsi Ali made a lot of interesting points, mostly objecting to how this debate swallows up larger discussions about how religion is used as cover to control and oppress women in ways that are significantly more damaging than anything clothes could do to you.  But mostly it was a confused mess, and not helped by the fact that no practicing Muslims, much less anyone who wore a hijab (which Ali sensibly pointed out can often be a non-obtrusive item of clothing, instead of one that says, “Look at how modest I am.”) was part of the panel.  They said they couldn’t get anyone to agree to do it, which to me should have been an indicator that it was time to go back to the drawing board.

Anyway, setting aside the debates on the legal restrictions, one thing that annoys/amuses (we need a word for this in English) me about the whole debate—-and thankfully this was something that was alluded to by people who got up and asked questions—-is that it presupposes that only Muslims fall into the trap of obsessing over how much skin is too much skin, or other questions of women’s “modesty”.  (And it presupposes all Muslims do, which is simply not true.)  I guarantee every fucking person frothing at the mouth at this satirical story has spent some time judging some woman or other for being immodest.  I was thinking about this while watching the panel, and tweeted an observation, I think, about skirt length and bra thickness. 

Which is the irony here.  While all these wingnuts are frothing over an imaginary ban on padded bras, in America, the padded bra is, in and of itself, an object of modesty obsession. While some communities are more liberal, and thus this falls under the radar, in other communities, leaving the house without a solid amount of padding to conceal your shameful natural breast shape is a big fucking deal.  At Slate, Emily Yoffe dealt with this concern.  The question:

I find myself at the age of 31 wondering what proper nipple etiquette is. I recently read an article that led me to realize that some people are offended by the sight of the outline of a woman’s nipples showing through her clothing. I own a variety of bras, some padded and some not. I know that if I wear an unpadded bra and it gets cold, the outline of my nipples will show through my top. My mother never mentioned anything about this when I was growing up (she didn’t object when I sometimes went braless as a teen), and the only person who has ever said anything about my nipples is my boyfriend. I am inclined to think that it is not improper, and I have never been offended by the sight of nipples. Would you please educate me?


The answer:

o educate myself I turned to the women of Slate, who enlightened me on their bra-washing schedules the last time bra etiquette came up. This time the responses ranged from, “No nip. Never” to “What can you do—sometimes nipples are visible” to “A little nipple is fine. Women have breasts, people should get over it” to “It feels rude and intrusive, demanding everyone look” to “Some nippage is inevitable, though I wouldn’t expect men to behave like adults and divert their gaze.” So I will anoint myself the nipple arbiter and say, particularly at the office, keep your nipples under wraps. This does not mean wearing a Kevlar bra; it means finding one with enough lining or tensile strength to make sure that if you’re cold, or if you’re thinking about Mark Ruffalo, the rest of the office won’t know. If you want to wear lingerie that’s sheer and silky, then make sure you’re wearing thick enough layers of clothing so that your colleagues can’t see if you’re standing at attention. It will improve office productivity; you’ve probably noticed that when you’re talking to male colleagues and your nipples are straining at your blouse, the men tend to forget the point they were trying to make. After hours, it’s your choice. But remember, if you release your nipples, some people are going to have a hard time remembering to look you in the eye.

You can imagine which of those quotes was mine.  My feeling is and always will be that women’s bodies are only “distracting” if you choose for them to be.  Nipple shape is only a thing insofar as people make it a thing.  If 3/4 of American women suddenly started to cover their hair or their ankles, the other 1/4 would start to worry that the sight of their hair or their ankles was driving men to distraction.  As Ayaan Hirsi Ali sensibly said during the panel, once you open the door to debating modesty, suddenly, in her words, a woman’s entire body becomes “a private part”.  Every inch is up for negotiation, depending on cultural norms, which can change at light speed.  (For instance, the nipple debate is suddenly rearing its head in part because women in more conservative parts of the country started to wear those thin cotton shirts that were invented so as not to hide your shape under a T-shirt.  Then, to protect their “modesty”, T-shirt bras became standardized to the point where they’re unavoidable.  Now it’s getting to the point where you either can’t buy anything else, or if you choose to wear another kind of bra, you’re a slutty slut. I’m holding out.  I think the bras look kind of silly when it’s really obvious that’s what you’re wearing.)  But the flip side of this coin is that banning clothes only imbues them with more meaning.  It’s ironic/sad (another word we need to invent!) that the conservatives who are screeching about an imaginary ban on padded bras—-the American modesty clothing item of choice—-mostly find themselves supporting bans on niqabs and even hijabs.

I propose than banning and requiring certain items of clothing that denote modesty are two sides to the same coin.  As Sussan Tahmasebi said when she got up to ask a question, these are battles over other things being waged through women’s bodies and that’s unacceptable.  I propose that people everywhere just stop bugging out over women’s clothes.  Accept that fashion is arbitrary, and stop trying to control what women wear.  You’ll find that the world does not end, and that fears that this opens the door to some unchecked orgy in street situation is just so much nonsense. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:14 AM • (258) Comments

I had heard of t-shirt bras, but I’d never understood what they were exactly, or what they were for, until I read this post. I also couldn’t understand why it has gotten so hard to find a proper bra now that all the racks are filled with these weird foamy things. I have unobtrusive nipples so I’ve never really had to worry about showing through a shirt, which I guess is how the whole issue flew under my radar. Weird.  

Comment #1: Flora  on  03/14  at  09:17 AM

The lingerie industry benefits from this stigma. Women with smaller breasts might not wear a bra as often if it wasn’t a faux pas to have your nipples visible though your clothing.

Comment #2: MissCherryPi  on  03/14  at  09:50 AM

I could be missing a whole other lively discussion going on elsewhere, but I personally haven’t encountered any debate at all about whether a visible male nipple is acceptable. Nor have I seen anyone discussing the merits or otherwise of clothing that would disguise or enhance erections that may be visible in the trouser area.

Comment #3: Pavlov's Cat  on  03/14  at  09:55 AM

All those Fox News fans should look to their own Christian version of the Taliban - the Quiverfull movement and the Christian Patriarchy movement.  Bill Gothard’s team sells homeschooling products that teach girls as young as six about “defrauding” boys.  Girls and women in this movement have gotten in trouble for wearing an unzipped hoodie (a boy might start to think about the rest of her clothes being unzipped), and a little girl straddling a fence (a boy might imagine himself being the fence underneath her).

The bra thing really bothers me.  I have freakishly large breasts, and they simply do not carry my cup size in any store.  I have to order them online, which means buying a dozen combination of cup size/band size/style, and then returning 11 of them (or sometimes all of them if I don’t get lucky) after trying them on at home, only to get charged a 25% “restocking fee” and shipping both ways.  Nearly every bra is extremely uncomfortable for me and I often feel imprisoned in my home because I can’t wait to get home after work and remove my uncomfortable bra, so I can’t really do anything after work or go out later without putting the uncomfortable bra back on.  I wish so hard that I could just throw off society’s rules and go braless, but since mine are so big, it is especially noticeable.  Maybe some day I’ll be able to do it, but I can’t yet.  And I would give anything to have a foam-cup, molded bra in my size that fits comfortably and correctly.  I have to make do with lace bras or cloth ones with a lot of seaming, so I can’t really wear any kind of shirt that is clingy, because then it looks very lumpy.

Comment #4: bananacat  on  03/14  at  10:05 AM

I could be missing a whole other lively discussion going on elsewhere, but I personally haven’t encountered any debate at all about whether a visible male nipple is acceptable. Nor have I seen anyone discussing the merits or otherwise of clothing that would disguise or enhance erections that may be visible in the trouser area.

The closest I have come to this is when my dad had a few fashion rules that he followed.  He was an arrogant, high-paid executive who wore a business suit nearly every day.  He told me that it’s not proper for men to wear a dress shirt without an undershirt, and also that short-sleeved dress shirts are dorky.  I only remember this because I had a math teacher who wore a dress shirt with nothing underneath and I could see his chest hair and nipples through it.  However, I’m probably the only one who even noticed it, because most of the other kids didn’t have a snobby dad like I did.

Comment #5: bananacat  on  03/14  at  10:09 AM

... We were watching an early season of Friends the other day (yes, I love me some sitcoms) and I was actually kind of shocked; I wasn’t old enough to think about breasts in the early 90s, so I don’t remember a time before t-shirt bras were standard. It makes me wonder if my generation is generally marked by corralling the female body to a certain common standard; we’re the people who have never not shaved and never considered not shaving, the people who are scandalized by earlier generations and their see-through bras, the people who re-popularized the girdle. God knows I’m not accusing the waif-licious 90s of being a time of bodily freedom, but they do seem to have had less underwear.

Pavlov’s Cat, as a teenager I had some male peers who would probably be tearfully grateful if someone would make them something better than a low-slung flannel shirt or, like, a math book for those little moments. As for visible male nipples, there’s a lot of policing in middle school, I think, when the hormonal chaos of early puberty often cause a bit of breast development in boys, but last I checked there were no commercial proposals to resolve the situation besides wearing two undershirts and keeping your arms folded in gym.

Comment #6: purpleshoes  on  03/14  at  10:12 AM

Ah, the human breast and our weird obsessions about what to do with them in public.  From Jane Russell’s breasts in The Outlaw (did she or didn’t she wear the specially-designed bra created by Howard Hughes for her role in that film?  And was the “bad” publicity far more interesting than the film itself?), to the odd, pointy, totally unnatural, hyper-structured bras of the ‘50s and ‘60’s, to Twiggy’s high-fashion, almost-breastlessness, to Farrah Fawcett’s ‘70s nipple poster, to the “Wonder Bra”, etc. 

What a long strange trip it’s been.  Whatever size they are, whatever shape they are, whatever their prominence, they’re always problems.  I wish it wasn’t so, and I feel utterly powerless to do anything about it.

And that’s about all I can say on a subject as fraught with cultural minefields as that one.  I’ll be interested to see where this discussion goes…

Comment #7: MikeEss  on  03/14  at  10:13 AM

MikeEss, it’s also a super-American thing, though I’m sure there are other cultures that are as wacky for breasts as we are. God knows when I was living in Central America I got street-harassed plenty, but nobody ever made eye contact with my chest. When I was among North American men again I kept wondering if I had something on my shirt because I wasn’t used to the chest-to-eye contact anymore.

Comment #8: purpleshoes  on  03/14  at  10:17 AM

I always thought those padded bras were for women with small boobs, trying to make them look bigger.  Who knew?

Catgirl, I have the same problem.  I got professionally fitted and now buy at figleaves.com and biggerbras.com.  I find I almost never have to return anything anymore.  But that’s me, obviously YMMV.

Comment #9: Siobhan  on  03/14  at  10:36 AM

The problem with the bans in Europe is that they single out Muslims (there are no similar attacks on Orthodox Jewish dress).  I generally am an opponent of laws governing what you can and cannot wear in public, but think you should be able to follow your own conscience and taste.  Islam only enjoins women to “dress modestly”, which leaves itself open to a wide range of interpretation.  The same shura, by the way enjoins men not to leer at women.

Comment #10: DrDick  on  03/14  at  10:37 AM

Catgirl, I have the same problem.  I got professionally fitted and now buy at figleaves.com and biggerbras.com.  I find I almost never have to return anything anymore.  But that’s me, obviously YMMV.

Thanks for the tips; it’s at least worth looking into.

Comment #11: bananacat  on  03/14  at  10:42 AM

This really took me aback.  I had no idea that your nipples showing was controversial, have I been living under a rock?  I have large nipples and to tell you the truth - they show a lot. Even if they’re semi-erect.  There’s really nothing I can do about it and I never even considered a padded bra because, well, I don’t need or desire any padding on my breasts.  I know that sometimes I do get a little embarrassed, and for that reason I do tend to shun white blouses or tees.  They show it the worst.  But other than that, I just go around the way I was born, with a regular bra, and I know that sometimes men look at them, but guess what?  SOmetimes men look at my ass or my legs too, what am I supposed to do?

This seems like a good time for Lady Gaga’s Born this way!  I think I"ll play it right now!

Comment #12: Daisy  on  03/14  at  10:51 AM

Ohhh I see from the comments that tshirt bras are very common now.  See, I’m from the 90’s, and yep you are so right, the women’s nipples showed on that show. I guess that’s why this is really beyond me.  I had no idea.

Comment #13: Daisy  on  03/14  at  10:55 AM

I propose than banning and requiring certain items of clothing that denote modesty are two sides to the same coin.  As Sussan Tahmasebi said when she got up to ask a question, these are battles over other things being waged through women’s bodies and that’s unacceptable.  I propose that people everywhere just stop bugging out over women’s clothes.  Accept that fashion is arbitrary, and stop trying to control what women wear.

WORD.

When you think about it, it’s actually amazing how many separate battles are being waged through the apparently minor issue of acceptable women’s clothing:
-The battle of the patriarchy for male supremacy, which is manifested in the need for control over women’s social image.
-The battle of religion against sexuality, because sexuality is symbolic of the world, which must be renounced for spirit.
-The long-burning conflict between the global tribes “The West” versus “Islam”.

Comment #14: atheist  on  03/14  at  11:02 AM

Man, I’m super jealous some of you live in an area where nipples are a non-issue. I think around here if you can see a woman’s nipple it is assumed that it’s by accident, because super sluts are the only people who would allow that to happen on purpose. I remember a lot of commercials touting some new technology Victoria’s Secret had developed that made it so a bra could be thin on the edges but still have full coverage in the middle.

But there’s a difference to be made between “padded” meaning not letting your nips show and “padded” meaning making your boobs seem bigger. It is not the same thing.

Comment #15: ElleDee  on  03/14  at  11:06 AM

Elle, where do you live if you don’t mind saying?

I wonder if this isn’t more generational than geographical?  I think that purpleshoes really opened up something there when she mentioned the early 90’s Friends.  I can tell you, Aniston and Cox’s nipples showed.  I certainly thought it was natural because mine showed too!  yes sometimes you catch men looking at them, but again, don’t you sometimes observe men looking at other body parts?  I feel really weird about this, I hope my daughter isn’t picking this stuff up.  She’s 11.  I better become far more aware of this.  I was shaped and formed by the 90’s, and I guess I haven’t kept up.  I don’t want her thinking her breasts and nipples are something that need to be squashed down and hidden.

Comment #16: Daisy  on  03/14  at  11:17 AM

Good post, the hypocrisy of those who foam at the mouth about Muslim concerns with modesty while they perpetuate the same thing are insufferable.

FWIW I have always found underwired padded bras more comfortable. My first bra was an unpadded one with lace, and I found it so itchy I refused to wear anything with more support than a thin cotton sports bra/crop top for years, to the point where people started to notice and comment. It’s lucky (for them) I devloped a liking for padded bras after I borrowed one of my mother’s, or I’d still be offending creeps with my improper breast etiquette.

Comment #17: Treefinger  on  03/14  at  11:19 AM

I’m in NC. In the city and not in the country either. I never really thought we were especially conservative about dress; I grew up in short shorts and halter tops in the summer. But no nipples!

Comment #18: ElleDee  on  03/14  at  11:29 AM

But there’s a difference to be made between “padded” meaning not letting your nips show and “padded” meaning making your boobs seem bigger. It is not the same thing.

That’s heavily lined versus padded.

I’m not a big bra fan. For years (say, 1995-2007), I got away with no bras or tanks with shelf bras. But things have changed in the past few years and even my unlined older cotton bras that support but still show nipple are “unacceptable”. And every damn bra they sell now is heavily lined with polyester materials which SUCKS ASS when it’s 90 degrees out.

Comment #19: hp  on  03/14  at  11:31 AM

I know about visible nipples being a problem.

I used to sub in the local public schools and more than once I have had principals and/or other teachers let me know about the problem.  The first time was my very first teaching job out of grad school, about 10 years ago.  I was doing a long term position and I apparently had visible nipples while teaching in a cold classroom (it was winter and I live in NW Ohio).  Of course, the teenage boys noticed and there were rumors started that I was going to work without a bra on and making passes at the boys and all sorts of stuff, that my oblivious self was unaware of, because of course women have nipples and of course they’ll show when you’re cold, until I was pulled aside by the assistant principal who made an issue of my long skirts and snug, but not low cut, tops because I was showing my breasts too much.  And no, my very happily married and just barely pregnant self (although I didn’t know that yet at the time) was not making passes at or coming on to teenage boys at all.  I started wearing thicker tops after that and putting band-aids over my nipples when I went to work, because it was becoming a problem.

The next time, I was also in a short term contract position (technically not a sub, but only on a one year contract because the physics teacher had died at the beginning of the school year) a few years later and was breastfeeding my 2nd kid as well.  So my chest was huge and my nipples were huge, and there was not a nursing bra in existence that I could also afford that would contain them.  In that school, I got pulled aside by the principal for showing off my breasts to the high school boys (never mind that by that time I was almost 30, still happily married, and still not interested in children), because my sweaters were tight and my blouses showed obvious nipple.  Like there was anything at all that I could do about either of those problems, what with having giant breasts full of milk, etc.  By that point, I was confident enough and old enough that I told her exactly that and suggested that maybe the boys should learn where not to put their eyes and when to shut their mouths about things that don’t concern them.  And then I addressed it in my classroom so that all the boys would know that it was not acceptable to stare at or make comments about me or any of the girls in the room and our bodies, at least not in a room run by me.  Needless to say, I did not get my contract renewed at that school, even though my students’ test scores were excellent and I was evaluated as being a very good teacher.

Aside from those two very memorable events, I’ve also had teachers and principals make little side comments to me when I’ve been in shorter term positions as well.  I’ve learned to shrug them off.

These days I’m a full time physics/astronomy instructor at the local U and I’ve embraced the breasts.  Almost all my tops are engineered to show at least a little cleavage, while still looking reasonably professional, and I very rarely worry about visible nipples either.  I figure that my students are grown ups and they can learn to look away if it bothers them.  I haven’t gotten a single complaint from anyone about the way I dress at work, either, from students, colleagues, or department chairs.  It just isn’t an issue anymore and I really like it that way.

Comment #20: ks  on  03/14  at  11:33 AM

Just to be clear what we’re talking about, does the Victoria’s Secret Biofit line count as a foamy t-shirt bra? I think they’re more like traditional underwire bras with a little bit of padding, as opposed to the ones that are all foam with no seams (I bought a strapless one of those foamy things and it was a waste, as it usually is when I buy strapless bras, because I never end up finding a time when its worth the discomfort of wearing one.)

To be totally honest, this post startled me because I just bought a VS biofit bra for the express purpose of hiding my nipples at work. I don’t know if anyone else noticed, but I was getting uncomfortable with them showing through my shirts, and summer is coming up and I want to wear light shirts without sweaters, so I figured I needed a bra that had more lining. I don’t think most of the complaints in that linked article apply if you get one that really fits right, though—for instance the complaints about them floating away from your chest, and making lines. I had to try on about 10 models and sizes before I found one that fit really well, but now it definitely does not float away from my chest (like the other ones did). Its actually really comfortable, and I like how it looks, and it doesn’t seem to have much of a noticeable push-up effect which I don’t want. But I also sort of wish I felt comfortable wearing the unlined one with tank tops. I can’t decide how I feel about the whole thing.

To be fair, I do notice when mens’ nipples show through their shirts. I guess most of the men I know wear an undershirt to try to avoid that, but sometimes when they don’t its really obvious.

Comment #21: geogami  on  03/14  at  11:34 AM

Sorry to keep harping on this, but catgirl, Intimacy offers fittings, and also has lists of stores that meet their standards in locations where they are not represented:  http://www.myintimacy.com/

Comment #22: Siobhan  on  03/14  at  11:37 AM

ElleDee, I’m in NC too, and I’ve definitely had friends who did not need bras - especially padded bras - but were required to wear them for modesty by their supervisors.

Comment #23: purpleshoes  on  03/14  at  11:40 AM

It’s not modesty, it’s socially-enforced coyness. Or perhaps something worse than that. That partial glimpse of whatever part(s) a particular subculture is especially fixated on is often at least as arousing for a (straight, stereotypical) male as an open display. Not just because of what it leaves to the imagination, but because of the voyeurism. Knowing that a woman nominally wants to conceal something is a source of power for a man who is looking at it.

Comment #24: paul  on  03/14  at  11:44 AM

First, I have to second the recommendation about getting professionally fit.  I dated someone who worked in a lingerie store, and she was always amazed at how many women wore the same bra size that they did when they were twenty years younger.  Bodies change.  As for larger sizes, I’d recommend professional fittings even more.  My ex-wife’s grandmother, from whom she inherited her chest apparently, has depressions in her shoulders from wearing too tight bras for decades.  Controlling large breasts isn’t worth getting deformed.  (Yeah, she’s in her nineties and stooped and has thin bones, but she’s had those dips on the shoulders for many decades.)  I don’t know anyone who makes her own bras, but I imagine it could be less expensive than the odd-sized bras my ex buys.  I’m sure someone has a crafty friend who does that, but I imagine the patterns are from more than one century ago.

As for the nipple question: if it’s something that assholes point out, then it’s not a problem aside from anything else only assholes will point out.  A booger on your shirt is worth pointing out.  An unzipped fly is worth pointing out.  Toilet paper on a shoe is worth pointing out.  As discretely as possible in all these cases.  But, “Holy crap! Your nips are going to poke someone’s eyes out!” probably is best left unsaid in almost all social surroundings, lest it be revealed that you’re an asshole.

And bralessness is fine.  Comfort is what matters, and that’s the key: does discomfort come from physical pain or from assholes and their opinions, stated or otherwise made clear?  Once clear about whether it’s painful to go without or a pain in the ass to go without, the “requirement” to wear a bra and hide those nipples is revealed to be what it is.

Comment #25: 3letterjon  on  03/14  at  11:47 AM

Not that there’s any comparison to the way women and their breasts are treated, but to answer a question asked above, it’s typically not OK at all for men’s nipples (or chest hair, etc.) to show through their shirts.  That’s why if I have to wear a white dress shirt I always wear an undershirt, even when it’s a million degrees out.

Again, no comparison to what women deal with every day in terms of clothing expectations, but the one thing men can’t do in a semi-formal or formal situation that women *can* do is get cool in hot weather.  You have to wear 2-3 layers (with long sleeves) and a necktie regardless of the temperature or humidity.

Regarding women’s nipples, this just seems like the same old modesty crap we always hear from that subset of men who blame their inability to control their own sexual thoughts on the women around them rather than on their own lack of basic self-control.

Comment #26: Dave Fried  on  03/14  at  11:47 AM

Enh, I think it’s partially that real breasts are biological organs that come in many shapes and sizes, while padded breasts are standardized and conceal any traces of biological function. A domed shape is also much closer to an aroused unclad breast than to an unaroused unclad breast, in my general observation, so it does standardize a certain impression of sexual availability.

Comment #27: purpleshoes  on  03/14  at  11:49 AM

I’ve been dealing with this issue my entire adult life. For whatever reason I decided I hated bras around age 16, and pretty much just stopped wearing them. Most guys I’ve talked to didn’t seem to notice (or at least hid it well) but my female acquaintances? It was one bout of body policing after another.

As for the nipple showing thing, I remember being really paranoid about that when I was younger, and only wore padded bras. Now, I’m breastfeeding, and my nipples are so large that they’re visible through nursing pads. I’d need something like an inch of padding to hide my nipples, and that’s just never going to happen. People can deal.

Comment #28: Ashley  on  03/14  at  11:50 AM

wasn’t it Ann Althouse who got all worked up a few years ago because a young woman blogger met Bill Clinton along with some other bloggers and her nipples were showing?  or do I misremember?


as someone who teaches college-aged young women I have learned the key phrase is EYE CONTACT.  I remember being a student and hearing the remarks made by my women friends about the creepy older profs who kept ogling them…

Comment #29: Woodrowfan  on  03/14  at  11:57 AM

Satire probably taken from the “I can see your dirty pillows!!” line in Carrie. Updated for the times of course.

Comment #30: mndean  on  03/14  at  11:57 AM

Sorry to keep harping on this, but catgirl, Intimacy offers fittings, and also has lists of stores that meet their standards in locations where they are not represented:  http://www.myintimacy.com/

Oh, I’ve been fitted-dozens of times.  But every brand and every style is slightly different, so it’s only helpful in narrowing down the range, but you can’t have a bra that almost fits when they are this big.  I still need to try a bar on, which still means ordering a bunch of them and then sending back most of them.

Comment #31: bananacat  on  03/14  at  12:07 PM

I, too, have never been offended by the sight of a woman’s nipples, but that’s probably because I’m gay.

Comment #32: Lisa Love  on  03/14  at  12:09 PM

@ Woodrowfan

Yes and no. Althouse decided to go all Taliban on Jessica Valenti from Feministing, but not because her nipples were showing, no, she just had the temerity to wear A V-NECKED SWEATER in the presence of Bill Clinton…no nipple-gate there, just v-neck gate. It was so ridiculous and yet its still remembered.

Comment #33: Thealogian  on  03/14  at  12:11 PM

And bralessness is fine.  Comfort is what matters, and that’s the key: does discomfort come from physical pain or from assholes and their opinions, stated or otherwise made clear?  Once clear about whether it’s painful to go without or a pain in the ass to go without, the “requirement” to wear a bra and hide those nipples is revealed to be what it is.

Wow, that is one giant steaming pile of unexamined privilege.  It’s very easy to tell someone else to just ignore all the comments, when you never have to face that yourself.  Can you get fired from a job for not wearing a bra?  Will you get looked over for a promotion?  Will you get constant stares and rude remarks in the grocery store?  Will you get constant body policing if you don’t wear a bra?  Will you be asked to leave a restaurant or a store?  Until you actually have to face those things, don’t tell other people to just get over it.  At my breast size, it’s not even about nipples at all.

Comment #34: bananacat  on  03/14  at  12:12 PM

Okay, I’ll be the one to ask catgirl. What’s your breast size?

Comment #35: Lisa Love  on  03/14  at  12:17 PM

T-shirt bras, is that what they are? I’m such an in-betweeny—too big to go braless, but not so big that I have a problem finding bras…honestly, I have a lot of boob-privilege in that regard, so sending my love/empathy to catgirl in particular.

I was wearing a particularly thin Old Navy v-neck t-shirt the other day that my mother objected to because “you make it seem like we can’t afford real shirts” and she made me change it before going out to lunch with her. Her view wasn’t that it was slutty, but poor (which reflects her anxieties of coming from a class-conscious working class background whose parents emphasized college/graduate education was expected from all their children, even if they had to work three-jobs to accomplish that). I was wearing the thin t-shirt because I am slutty, lol. Although, I did have a slightly padded-bra in the mix, because sheer t-shirt plus nipple prolly would’ve been over my threshold of share…although this conversation really makes me wanna embrace the nipple! Nipples for everyone!!!

Comment #36: Thealogian  on  03/14  at  12:19 PM

catgirl,

What I see from my comment isn’t “unexamined privilege” of any magnitude, only an acknowledgment that the social, sexist bullshit that comes with breasts of any size is… bullshit.

I’m many things, and sometimes I understand assholes too well, but if I was an asshole apologist in what I said, tell me where.

Comment #37: 3letterjon  on  03/14  at  12:19 PM

What I see from my comment isn’t “unexamined privilege” of any magnitude, only an acknowledgment that the social, sexist bullshit that comes with breasts of any size is… bullshit.

It may be bullshit, but it’s bullshit written into our dress code and enforced by HR.

Comment #38: hp  on  03/14  at  12:30 PM

What I see from my comment isn’t “unexamined privilege” of any magnitude, only an acknowledgment that the social, sexist bullshit that comes with breasts of any size is… bullshit.

Don’t you see how that could come across as just a teensy bit condescending, especially on a feminist blog where we deal with this stuff all the time?  I realize that it’s BS, but it’s impossible for most people to just stop caring what society thinks, and it’s careless to ignore the real, substantial impact that social rules and judgment have on feminist issues.  It’s like saying “Oh, you should just stop caring what people think”, instead of saying “these are some ways that can help you to stop caring what people think”.  I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you were just agreeing with the point of the post, but it really didn’t come across that way to me.

Comment #39: bananacat  on  03/14  at  12:31 PM

Not just because of what it leaves to the imagination, but because of the voyeurism. Knowing that a woman nominally wants to conceal something is a source of power for a man who is looking at it.

I dunno about “power” per se - the existence of areas women nominally want to conceal leaves them the choice of hiding or displaying them as they and fashion see fit (notwithstanding ks’s tale of woe about the Udders of Doom).  If a society didn’t have areas of concealment, I imagine they’d invent them pretty fast with any level of sophistication in clothing display.

Comment #40: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/14  at  12:32 PM

I like that Piator—I needed the laugh.  I’m going to start calling them the Udders of Doom.

Comment #41: ks  on  03/14  at  12:38 PM

Also, props to Treefinger at 17 for “Improper breast etiquette”.

Comment #42: atheist  on  03/14  at  01:05 PM

Again, no comparison to what women deal with every day in terms of clothing expectations, but the one thing men can’t do in a semi-formal or formal situation that women *can* do is get cool in hot weather.  You have to wear 2-3 layers (with long sleeves) and a necktie regardless of the temperature or humidity.

Men can cover themselves with light weight fabrics just women can. I suggest a tropical worsted suit, ex officio boxer briefs, a seersucker shirt, and a polypropylene t-shirt. This is how I roll when it’s hot and humid. You’ll be surprised how comfortable you feel.

Other issues:

I think when Ann A was a girl, the code was “V-necks = slutty,” while “crew necks = modest.”

A factoid I once read that stuck in my mind was that Detroit women wore the biggest cup sizes in America. Assuming that a supply sprung up to match demand, a trip to Detroit to check out the corsetieres might be the ticket.

Comment #43: Hector B.  on  03/14  at  01:09 PM

Ooops: “just like women can.”

Also: Visiting a school in Muslim land I was disoriented by all the headscarved teachers. I kept thinking I was in parochial school. The nuns’ former habits met all but the strictest notions of Islamic dress, covering everything but the face and hands, and disguising the contours of the boobs and butt.

Comment #44: Hector B.  on  03/14  at  01:15 PM

3letterjon, this is something that you routinely get wrong. For the women who are here discussing body policing, your opinion does not (and should not) matter to them. Whether you personally think nipples should be visible or should be concealed at all costs doesn’t change the existence of cultural pressure on the subject. And when you share your opinion on the subject, you reinforce the idea that generally the way women dress should conform to the desires of the men who look at them. Unsurprisingly, that idea doesn’t fly around here.

Comment #45: Matthew Morse  on  03/14  at  01:30 PM

In the 70s, feminists went bra-less. Maybe it’s time to do it again.

Comment #46: Lisa Love  on  03/14  at  01:40 PM

“V-necks = slutty,”

Somehow, the idea that I could have been construed as a slut in high school based on my style of dress is utterly hilarious, given my dating life.

The molded foam cups are annoying to me because they don’t always provide the support I’m buying them for (and I’m another who has trouble finding the right size, though not for the same reasons).  Plus some lines will have more padding for smaller sizes (I think the aforementioned Biofit bras are one such brand) and I find that insulting.

Comment #47: Jayn Newell  on  03/14  at  01:47 PM

3letterjon, you still come off as one of the “if men were nicer and didn’t stare or get all upset about a little nip then I’d have a lot more to almost not stare at dammit those oglers are ruining it for the rest of us” crew. 

Explaining to us about bras and bra fitting?  Really?  Repeating jokes that are offensive?  Why?

Comment #48: oldfeminist  on  03/14  at  01:47 PM

T-shirt bras.  I’d wondered why the hell those things were suddenly pretty much all you could get unless you were buying the sort of bra that’s meant to function as sexy-times dress-up wear and not an actual bra.  I don’t mind the shape, since I’m apparently one of the lucky ones they actually support instead of just encasing, but I’d rather deal with the occasional bit of nip outline than the constant “Look at my bra!” outline of the foam under the fabric.  I’m not sure how we got from “Underwear blatantly visible under clothing is tacky” to “Make underwear as blatant as possible to prove you’re wearing it,” but the change seems a little pointless, modesty-wise.

Comment #49: preying mantis  on  03/14  at  01:53 PM

Also, men’s nipples (or chest hair) being visible through a shirt is considered unprofessional, but it’s not really a modesty issue.

Comment #50: preying mantis  on  03/14  at  01:57 PM

Purpleshoes at 27, I think you’re bang on the money here.

Padded bras that shape the breasts into an amorphous dome both sexualise and sanitise the bust, as do nipple covers (which make it possible to display the breast whilst concealing the nipples, rather than concealing both breast and nipple behind an inch-thick woolly jumper). As women face the duel narrative of “You must breastfeed, but don’t let anyone see you do it” here we have “Your breasts are sexual and should be packaged for display, but heaven forfend their natural shape is hinted at”. I’m almost tempted to say that nipples are bad because they can be seen as _unsexy_ - too messy and female and biological and reminding that breasts have other purposes than to satisfy the sexual urges of the random male.

Comment #51: Nineveh  on  03/14  at  01:58 PM

I’m somewhere between a A-cup and a B-cup (sudden thought: are bra sizes measured the same way outside the US?) so I can never find a bra, of any variety, that actually fits. So I prefer go bra-less or wear a shelf/sports bra, and I did for most of college.

However, I’ve noticed that HR departments are militant about ladies keeping their Chest Udders restrained (not to mention my mother’s abject horror at the thought of bralessness), but sports bras just aren’t acceptable in professional society. (I assume because they compress and conceal rather than lift and separate? I mean, forbid a woman not show off her womanly attributes. But not too much, because womanly attributes are distracting to teh menz. Aaaaargh!)

Sooooooo I’m stuck buying push-up B-cups that I rip off as soon as I get home.

It fucking sucks, and I’m sick and tired of conforming to society dictating how I “display” my mammary glands just so I can get a damn paycheck.

Comment #52: verity khat  on  03/14  at  02:07 PM

Following that up with a less me-centric, more on-topic remark, controlling women’s clothing is definitely a way of sanitizing and controlling their sexuality, whether it’s a head scarf or a nipple-concealing lined bra.  It’s all about putting everyone in the “right” box.

Nineveh and Purpleshoes, you phrased it far better than I could!

Comment #53: verity khat  on  03/14  at  02:12 PM

“Improper breast etiquette”.

Can we call this “breastiquette”? :D

Comment #54: Bagelsan  on  03/14  at  02:14 PM

When I was in high school I overheard a bunch of dudes making fun of a girl for being cold and having nipples. 90% of my bras have been padded since that incident.

Comment #55: Entomologista  on  03/14  at  02:15 PM

I thought a t-shirt bra was just one without a lot of bumpy lace, didn’t realize they are designed to hide nipples. I’ve always thought padding was for making small breasts look bigger or for making super structured, cleavage enhancing bras. As a large busted woman (42DDD) I hate padded bras.

There have been occasions while working in a perpetually cold office I felt nips were really conspicuous, but figured most people weren’t looking. Anybody who did look wasn’t really my concern, which I think is the heart of the whole religious modesty thing. It’s one thing for me to choose clothes based on my level of comfort of what is covered, but anybody telling me I have to cover certain body parts so as not to “tempt” men is full of shit. Many men are not going to be tempted by the same body parts on the same woman, i.e. her ass is hot, but I like her legs better. Then there’s my standpoint that I don’t give a shit if someone is tempted by my whatever as long as he keeps the thought to himself.

Comment #56: Olivia  on  03/14  at  02:23 PM

I agree with Amanda 100 percent.

I think Yoffe’s answer to the question was weird because she seemed to be focusing on what to wear at the office, which wasn’t really the question asked. And the reality is that people often are more careful about what they wear and what they show at work, even though some of the standards applied to women are definitely sexist and dictated by the patriarchy (e.g., high-heeled shoes).

Comment #57: Dilan Esper  on  03/14  at  02:33 PM

In the 70s, feminists went bra-less. Maybe it’s time to do it again.

Oh yes please, let’s have yet another thing to define what a “feminist” is. I am sure plenty of women who identified as such in the 70s did NOT go bra-less, and plenty who did not identify as such did. I;m a feminist, and I would never go bra-less because - guess what - not everyone is like you and not everyone is comfortable that way. I already get harangued by some women (still!) for shaving/waxing because OMG I R LETTING TEH PATRIARCHY TELL ME WHAT TO DOOOOOOO. I’m not going to also be made to feel like a stooge because I want to wear bras.

Comment #58: Alison  on  03/14  at  02:34 PM

I think when Ann A was a girl, the code was “V-necks = slutty,” while “crew necks = modest.”

That’s so weird.  I look for v-necks or scoop necks to make my breasts look smaller.  Wearing a crew neck, or even worse, a turtle neck, as I do only for skiing, well, let’s just say that all that uninterrupted fabric accentuates the lumps. 
I wonder if that code was designed to ensure large-breasted women were doing it wrong no matter what they wore, in essense saying that large breasts are slutty and asking for it.

Comment #59: rain  on  03/14  at  02:36 PM

I HATE t-shirt bras with a blind passion. 

I’m somewhere between a C and a D, so they never fit right, and who the hell cares if I have nipples?  The last time I checked we were all mammals, right? 

One of the last times I shopped at Lane Bryant, I tried explaining to the saleswoman that I didn’t WANT a t-shirt bra, that they were hideous, shapeless, vile and uncomfortable.  I wanted an underwire balconette or demi bra. 

She actually made a face before telling me she “didn’t advise” anyone with a chest like mine to wear a bra like that, and the t-shirt bras were so much better for minimizing…

I walked out.  And my husband was livid.  I’m surprised he waited until we got to the car before he blurted out, “She may as well have called you a whore!”

When I related this to my at the time therapist, she said, “Well, what’s wrong with hiding your nipples so men don’t stare?”

This set off the, “Are you fucking kidding me?” button, which led to a rant about how if men want me to treat them like adults instead of naughty children, they will act like fucking adults in my presence. 

As someone who developed early (needed a bra in 4th grade), I’m really, really sensitive to breast policing.  It pisses me right the hell off. Yeah, I’ve got tits and those tits have nipples.  Get the fuck over it, and yourself. 

Grrrrrrrr!

Comment #60: GeekGirlsRule  on  03/14  at  02:38 PM

The more bras change, the more bra shopping stays the same.

Comment #61: bomberE  on  03/14  at  02:41 PM

My father was not normally a prudish man, but I do remember his objecting to my wearing sweatpants that rather clearly outlined my (male) genitalia.  That’s as close as I am likely to come to this particular issue, as I would never give any woman a hard time about her nipples showing or not showing, not even my daughters when they were teenagers.
BTW, my mother’s comment on the sweatpants was reminiscent of Ma Kent in the first episode of “Lois and Clark” observing that “At least nobody will be looking at your face.  They don’t call ‘em tights for nothing!”

Comment #62: Dr. Psycho  on  03/14  at  02:45 PM

She actually made a face before telling me she “didn’t advise” anyone with a chest like mine to wear a bra like that, and the t-shirt bras were so much better for minimizing…

This is a big problem I have with buying bras for my size.  I didn’t develop breasts at all until late high school, and I didn’t get the Udders of Doom (cue ominous music) until after having kids, so shopping for bras is an adventure in body policing that took me a long time to get used to.  And my biggest complaint at the moment is that most of the bras for larger breasted women are meant to minimize the bust.  And I don’t want that.  I was without for the longest time and I want to flaunt them and enjoy them now—I don’t want a minimizing bra, I want one that both supports and shows them off. 

And the looks on the faces of the saleswomen when I mention that rather pertinent fact is amazing.  It’s like I suddenly grew an extra head, because how dare I, a tall, slightly chubby woman who already takes up way more space than I apparently need, feel entitled to show off my excellent tits to the world.

But it does make buying bras an exercise in frustration.

Comment #63: ks  on  03/14  at  02:49 PM

Alison,

How about bras optional?

Comment #64: Lisa Love  on  03/14  at  02:50 PM

GeekGirlsRule, I was an early developer, too. I was in 3rd grade when I got my first bra, though I still went without one under sweatshirts and thick sweaters for a couple more years. You are so right about all the fucking policing about breasts. I’ve been told to show mine, hide mine, bring out, button ‘em up….I stopped wearing shirts with any writing on them years ago when I realized it was an invitation for perverts to opening gawk at them. It’s weird that I get less gawking when I show a little cleavage than with a t-shirt with writing.

Comment #65: Olivia  on  03/14  at  02:51 PM

She actually made a face before telling me she “didn’t advise” anyone with a chest like mine to wear a bra like that, and the t-shirt bras were so much better for minimizing…

Ugh, yet another thing I hate about having large breasts!  When I do manage to find a bra in my size, it’s very often a “minimizing” bra, which tend to be even more uncomfortable than standard bras.  Strong fabric that is meant to squish giant lumps of fat into slightly smaller lumps of fat does not fit anyone’s definition of comfortable.  And of course, I’m told all my life that big boobs are great and if you don’t have them you have to get surgery to have them, but then as soon as you go one inch above the accepted big size, then they’re suddenly too big and you have to squish them down at all costs and maybe even get surgery for that and that’s when you realize that the line of acceptability is razor-thin and the system is set up so that all women fail no matter what.

Comment #66: bananacat  on  03/14  at  02:55 PM

Wow. Nipple etiquette. Who knew? Certainly not me.

I have always had large breasts prominent nipples - it has little or nothing to do with the temperature. Cold only makes them more prominent.

I’m certainly not interested in getting padded bras to hide my nipples - cripes, I’ve got enough chest as it is without adding to it just to disguise nippleage.

Comment #67: carswell  on  03/14  at  02:58 PM

Ed Masry: What makes you think you can just walk in there and take whatever you want?
Erin Brockovich: They’re called boobs, Ed.

Comment #68: Lisa Love  on  03/14  at  03:08 PM

I’d rather deal with the occasional bit of nip outline than the constant “Look at my bra!” outline of the foam under the fabric.

Conveniently for the bra industry, padded bras have a much shorter life thanks to their propensity for becoming warped and showing through your clothes after maybe a few months of wear.  I still wear them anyway, because there’s no way I’m paying $50 for something that doesn’t last a year.

I’ve gone braless now and then thanks to some pretty serious breast pain.  Every once in a while, some douche notices and makes sure to *try* to shame me for it.  The glare of death tends to shut the fucker up.  Fortunately, I live in a city where people are generally reserved and mind their own business.  If I still lived in New York, there’s no way I’d go without a bra, unless I were wearing an extremely thick sweater.

Comment #69: keshmeshi  on  03/14  at  03:13 PM

keshmeshi, I recently spent a lot of money (for me) on 3 new bras. I figured these are going to last me a couple of year, but as I was leaving the saleswoman told me, “They’ll be good for about 6 months. Come back then and I’ll get you set up with new ones.” WTF? I had actually heard on a documentary about the design/evolution of bras that they are good for less than a year of wear structurally. Needless to say, I take mine to the limit.

The ubiquity of minimizing bras for large breasts mentioned reminds me that it wasn’t until I got these new bras home that I noticed they say “minimzer” on them. I can’t tell that they actually minimize, it’s more like they just don’t accentuate them in a “hey, look at me” way.

Comment #70: Olivia  on  03/14  at  03:21 PM

I think the bras look kind of silly when it’s really obvious that’s what you’re wearing.

I saw a woman over the weekend wearing a very thin shirt and one of those t-shirt bras. The outlines of the bra were as visible as visible could be; she might as well have been wearing the damn thing on top of her shirt instead of under it.

Udderwire bras bug the shit out of me anyway. I am supposed to wear this bra with cups much bigger than my actual breasts so that they can extend halfway down my ribs? No thanks.

Comment #71: kristin  on  03/14  at  03:22 PM

I hate bras. I vary between a B and a C depending on brand and day of the week, but I pretty much refuse to wear them except if I’m working out (in which case, sports bras are awesome). For the rest of the time, I wear camisoles with built-in shelf bras. I seriously have no idea if I nip out unless it’s so cold that I’m nipping out so hard it hurts, and in those cases even a padded bra isn’t going to hide the nippage (I have worn bras in the past and still occasionally do if my camis are all in the wash).

I’m with GeekGirls @60, if men want me to treat them like adults, they need to behave as such. If a male calls out my nippage as being inappropriate, I immediately call out their unlined boxer-briefs as being inappropriately revealing of their junk. That usually shuts them up.

Comment #72: Hobbes  on  03/14  at  03:25 PM

Lisa,

Optional is fine, of course - that’s how it should be. But unfortunately, I’ve had many many experiences where some women make a choice in opposition to patriarchal stands…and then get snooty about it towards those of us who don’t and act like we’re not “real” feminists because we’re not making the same choice. Total bullshit, as I’m hopeful people here would agree, but it happens very often.

The bra thing has already been one of these issues for me. I am very small chested, and I have been told so many damn times by lots of women/feminists (usually ones with huge boobs) how lucky I am because I don’t need a bra. Um, fuck you, yes I do. Small boobs are not necessarily firm and perky and perfect - mine sure as fuck aren’t. And so I am highly uncomfortable without a bra and I want to wear one (once I’ve finally managed to find one small enough - trust, AA cups are as hard to track down as the big ones), and I get eye-rolled at for that. It’s just another area where people need to remember that we’re all individuals and these choices shouldn’t be influenced by anyone - not conservative modesty-policing fundies, and not our feminist sisters.

Comment #73: Alison  on  03/14  at  03:25 PM

Also, men’s nipples (or chest hair) being visible through a shirt is considered unprofessional, but it’s not really a modesty issue.

Comment #50: preying mantis

Sounds like different words with the same meaning.
Considering Catgirl and HP have pointed out that women get fired for being “Unprofessional” because they have large breasts.

Comment #74: cynickal  on  03/14  at  03:27 PM

Siobhan - thanks for the recommendations.

Comment #75: gretchen  on  03/14  at  03:31 PM

Huh, and I always thought that the purpose of the t-shirt bra was to minimize the bra visibility (lace bumps and scrolls show through some tees, so I figured t-shirt bras were smooth so they wouldn’t show). Had no idea about the nipple issue. Now I’ve developed a fixation and have been sneaking looks at my boobs when near mirrors to see what’s showing. :D

Also, 3letterjon, way NOT to get it. Again. *sigh*

Comment #76: elena  on  03/14  at  03:37 PM

Alison,

It sucks that you have run into fascists disguised as feminists. In the end, no woman should be forced to wear or not wear a bra.

Comment #77: Lisa Love  on  03/14  at  03:39 PM

GeekGirlsRule, that’s appalling.  Not that I’m surprised.  I never allow anyone to help me buy a bra, at least not since I’ve been an adult.  I don’t like “help” in most stores aside from “where do you have the pipe dope” kind of questions, and definitely not in clothing stores. 

Not that a good bra fitter couldn’t help, it’s that I don’t think that’s what you get at LB.  I suspect anyone who works there and watches a video and takes a quiz is a “certified bra fitter” who hasn’t had her underlying assumptions about “dirty pillows” challenged. 

I agree with ks about “minimizers.”  I guess they are useful if you have back problems caused by carrying something heavy way forward of your center of balance, but hell, if you don’t want it, you shouldn’t be pushed in that direction.  Ever. 

And maybe I’m doin it rong, but the minimizer bras I’ve tried, I end up with upper breast flesh pushed up in such a way that it hits my chin if I try to tie my shoes.  Given the choice, I much prefer the dome shaped boob to the diamond/pyramid boob.

Comment #78: oldfeminist  on  03/14  at  03:44 PM

Sounds like different words with the same meaning.
Considering Catgirl and HP have pointed out that women get fired for being “Unprofessional” because they have large breasts.
Comment #74: cynickal on 03/14 at 02:27 PM

In a Venn diagram, Unprofessional is a circle that is bigger than immodest.  It isn’t immodest to never bathe, to cry all day at your desk, or refuse to speak or listen to your supervisor, but it is generally considered unprofessional.

Comment #79: oldfeminist  on  03/14  at  03:54 PM

I love this scene from Saving Private Ryan, which I think humorously pertains to our discussion.

Private Reiben: You know what that song reminds me of? It reminds me of Mrs. Rachel Troubowitz and what she said to me the day I left for basic.

Mellish: What, don’t touch me?

Private Reiben: No, Mrs. Rachel Troubowitz was our super’s wife. She comes into my mom’s shop to try on a few things, all right? And she’s easily like a uh, a 44 double E. These things are massive. And I’ve got her convinced that she’s like a 42D, all right. So we’re in the dressing room, she’s trying to squeeze into this side cut, silk ribbonned, triple panel girdle with the uh, shelf-lift brassiere and it’s beautiful because she’s just pouring outta this thing, you know? It’s beautiful. And she sees me and she can tell I got a hard on the size of the statue of liberty, all right? And she says to me, “Richard, calm down.” And she says, “Now when you’re over there, if you see anything that upsets you, if you’re ever scared, I want you to close your eyes and think of these. You understand?” So I said, “Yes, ma’am.”

Comment #80: Lisa Love  on  03/14  at  03:58 PM

I can’t believe no one has mentioned Barbie yet - because that’s what t-shirt bras remind me of.  They turn all our boobs into nipple-less Barbie-shaped domes, with no individuality, no personality, no swells or lumps. 

Our boobs, encased in foam, longer seem to be made of flesh that might (heaven forbid!) jiggle when moving about.  Instead, our boobs sit on our frames like fondant-covered bonbons on display.

And as a small-boobed person, the air-filled gap created by foam domes over my not-domed shape is a trial, because nothing looks funkier than a perfectly smooth boob with a mysterious and impossible-in-nature indentation in the top or side.

feh.

Comment #81: bluish  on  03/14  at  04:05 PM

“In a Venn diagram, Unprofessional is a circle that is bigger than immodest.  It isn’t immodest to never bathe, to cry all day at your desk, or refuse to speak or listen to your supervisor, but it is generally considered unprofessional.”

Pretty much.  Men wearing shirts that leave their nipples/chest-hair visible is generally more on par with men wearing bermuda shorts and sandals to a business-casual-and-up office.  It’s not considered titillating or “distracting” for their female co-workers or too sexy for the office.  The modesty-policing is usually a lot more pernicious.  A man can be told “Khakis, long-sleeve button-down solid-color shirt with an undershirt, tie, black or brown shoes of the following type, no jewelry or obtrusive cosmetic/hair products” and be done with it.  Depending on a woman’s shape, age, color/ethnicity, chest size, etc., she can wear the above and still be Doing It Wrong because (some) men find her sexually appealing.

Comment #82: preying mantis  on  03/14  at  04:09 PM

OldFeminist, I was asking because I could not find the bras I was looking for, just those damn foam abominations. 

I got fitted at one of our high end dept. stores awhile ago (no obligation to buy anything, but I did buy one because I would have felt bad otherwise).  They actually measure you and help you into the bra to make sure it’s sitting right and all that.  The girls at LB keep trying to put me in a D-cup, which is really too large.  The C is a bit snug, but better than how the too big cups feel.

Comment #83: GeekGirlsRule  on  03/14  at  04:11 PM

Lisa - totally smile *fist-bump*

Comment #84: Alison  on  03/14  at  04:25 PM

I’d say the closest equivalent to this kind of social discomfort for guys is getting an erection in public and doing your best to try and conceal it, which usually amounts to wedging it in the waist band of your pants, provided they’re tight enough/you’re wearing a belt.  And God help you if you’re wearing athletic shorts or sweatpants.

Comment #85: progrocker  on  03/14  at  04:31 PM

Oh, I always thought it was just a shite fashion trend, like the belly-button shirts of five years ago. And maybe for bigger boobs. I didn’t catch on at all that it was supposed to conceal the nipple.

Comment #86: felagund  on  03/14  at  04:32 PM

Professional fitters are the way to go if you have a hard time finding bras that fit, but you have to be careful where you go. Victoria’s Secret won’t fit you accurately because they carry a very small range of sizes, and they won’t tell you if you don’t fit their range. Most department stores in the US are of little help because the range is bigger but still doesn’t match the size range of actual women.

I have no idea why American bra companies don’t make bras in a range of sizes. It makes no sense to me. The UK has figured it out and makes cup sizes up to K readily available. In the US, the only places you can find bras with larger cup sizes are Nordstrom’s, which is very expensive and only carries a couple of brands, and specialty stores, which are thin on the ground.

I wear a 32HH - small band and large cup. As far as I can tell, no American company makes my size, so I have to order from England. I spent my teens and early twenties wearing unflattering minimizer bras that only came in white and beige and were still too small, because the best I could do was 34DDD. The first time I ordered an English bra (32G) was revelatory - it FIT. The center front was flush with my ribcage; I didn’t know that was even possible! All my other bras stuck out a good two inches in front. A bra that actually fits is a wonderful thing.

I get all my bras from Bravissimo these days. They’re very good about returns and helping with fit from a distance. There’s no restocking fee, although I do have to pay shipping both ways because I’m overseas.

Couple notes about the brands while I’m at it: Panache tends to run small in the band but gives a really great shape (at least for me). Freya’s fit is pretty consistent and has unusual color combinations. Fantasie is good quality, but the cups tend to be large, not in size but in cut, and I just don’t need that much fabric.

Comment #87: Amphigorey  on  03/14  at  04:32 PM

#82:

Actually, we’ve made A LITTLE progress on the double standard—the most obvious example being sexual harassment law, which really does deal with a form of male “immodesty”.

I think the real problem is that the traditional “rules” for what is acceptable and unacceptable in a workplace were mostly written by men at a time when workplaces were explicitly gender segregated, with male executives and line workers and female secretaries and receptionists. So when workplaces integrated, the rules were never re-thought and what results is a set of gendered expectations that impose all sorts of often conflicting injunctions on how women are supposed to look.

That said, if we could figure out a way to do it in a more fair and equal fashion and without throwing a bunch of conflicting standards on women, there probably would be some justification for asking everyone who goes to work to adhere to some sort of professional standard of dress.

Comment #88: Dilan Esper  on  03/14  at  04:33 PM

Amphigorey,

Are you September Carrino?

Comment #89: Lisa Love  on  03/14  at  04:39 PM

Am I who with the what now?

Comment #90: Amphigorey  on  03/14  at  04:50 PM

However, I’ve noticed that HR departments are militant about ladies keeping their Chest Udders restrained (not to mention my mother’s abject horror at the thought of bralessness), but sports bras just aren’t acceptable in professional society. (I assume because they compress and conceal rather than lift and separate? I mean, forbid a woman not show off her womanly attributes. But not too much, because womanly attributes are distracting to teh menz. Aaaaargh!)

Mmm?  So how exactly do they (i) know and (ii) express disapproval of a sports bra?  If you come to work looking flatter (and more comfortable) than yesterday, what are they gonna do about it?  Do sports bras show through shirts?

There have been occasions while working in a perpetually cold office I felt nips were really conspicuous, but figured most people weren’t looking.

Speaking for my half of “people”, we probably did notice.  Sorry.

My gf wears lacy underwire things, and I don’t think the issue of visible nipples has come up - probably because she dresses as if she’s going to have to spend part of her day lecturing to tertiary students.  I keep bugging her about getting proper fittings because some of the damned things bite at her skin, and she keeps demanding a good back scratch at night.

Comment #91: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/14  at  04:52 PM

I used to always wear those foamy abominations because I figured I needed them to give a nice shape and to hide my nipples.  But my nipples show through them anyway (I guess I have nipples of steel) and after a month or so, the fit of those things changes so they’re no longer hoisting my dirty pillows up, but are rather hovering over them and sliding down my ribcage.  I would sometimes amuse myself by lying on my back and poking at my bra and making these indentations.

I have DDs that are by no means gravity-defying, but I finally gave in and tried out a nice plain unpadded bra.  And it fits wonderfully!  The underwires don’t slide down my chest, they don’t become loose and my boobs don’t go swimming in them after 8 hours, and the front part stays against my ribcage all day.

And as for my nipples—whatever.  They do what they want.  They go crazy and will show any time, any where, under any circumstances.  I can’t control them.  And everyone knows I have them, since I’m a human being and all.  So I have ceased to care about whether they show and now only care that they are positioned correctly so I don’t look droopy.  Ah patriarchy, I try, but you keep worming my way into my brain.

Comment #92: Denise  on  03/14  at  04:52 PM

I thought so when I left my comment at #61, but coming back it’s even more obvious.  Ya’ll gettin’ trolled.

Comment #93: bomberE  on  03/14  at  04:53 PM

Mmm?  So how exactly do they (i) know and (ii) express disapproval of a sports bra?  If you come to work looking flatter (and more comfortable) than yesterday, what are they gonna do about it?  Do sports bras show through shirts?

Sportsbras tend to give you uniboob, which, depending on your size, can be quite obvious.  As for expressing disapproval, it can be as simple as, “Come straight from the gym today?”  B/c sportsbras are only appropriate underwear when one is actually Doing Sports.  At any other time, it’s expected you will lift and separate.

Comment #94: bomberE  on  03/14  at  05:00 PM

I propose than banning and requiring certain items of clothing that denote modesty are two sides to the same coin.

What?

Comment #95: Eric_RoM  on  03/14  at  05:02 PM

It’s time for Having Difficulty Understanding Simple Statements, with Eric_ROM!

Comment #96: Dan  on  03/14  at  05:23 PM

Amphigorey,

You said you’re a 32HH so I was just wondering if you are September Carrino.

Comment #97: Lisa Love  on  03/14  at  05:25 PM

A quick google tells me it was in 2008 that everyone was claiming that these “nipple enhancers” that made nipples more visible were the latest trend.  There was even a discussion on Sex and the City.  How quickly the tide turns.  http://www.bodyperkseurope.com/index2.html

Comment #98: Alphabet Soup  on  03/14  at  05:27 PM

Mmm?  So how exactly do they (i) know and (ii) express disapproval of a sports bra?  If you come to work looking flatter (and more comfortable) than yesterday, what are they gonna do about it?  Do sports bras show through shirts?

The problem isn’t necessarily that they will know you’re wearing a sports bra, but that a lot of clothing is tailored to fit when you’re wearing a regular bra.  The suit jacket or blouse might not lay the way it’s “supposed” to, and while you might not get any specific comments and HR might not even realize that it’s a bra issue, you might still look “sloppy” or unprofessional.  I don’t think it’s such a problem at most business casual places, but if you have to wear a suit every day, it might stand out more when the buttons gap or there are weird folds.  Women’s clothes especially are very shaped and if your shape doesn’t fit into that cut, then you’re out of luck.

Even though I don’t wear sports bras (as if I can find one in my size), I have a hell of a time finding button-down shirts that don’t gap across the bust.  If I get a shirt that is big enough to close properly, I’m swimming in it everywhere else.  Luckily my work is pretty casual, but it’s tough for job interviews because my clothes have to look nicer then.

Comment #99: bananacat  on  03/14  at  05:31 PM

I love how the woman modelling the ‘nipple enhancers’ in the pink tank has them in a place where no nipple would actually sit.

Comment #100: Planet of the Blue Monkeys  on  03/14  at  05:32 PM

Phoenician, you have never gotten the “muffin top” talk from your supervisor, apparently? Or the “I just want to let you know that *I* think you look fine, but I’m worried that you might make the customers uncomfortable” talk?

(Or the flipside, the “have you lost weight?” stuff that happens when you show up conventionally hoisted, because our culture is all about the bust-to-torso ratio)

Comment #101: purpleshoes  on  03/14  at  05:32 PM

Just a general question for the ladies: Do you ever wish we didn’t have breasts?

Comment #102: Lisa Love  on  03/14  at  05:44 PM

I wear t-shirt bras not because I’m afraid of my nips showing through (‘cause screw it, y’all, they’re there; I came with a pair of them) but because everything else is so lacy and frilly that that shows through my t-shirt. But all the t-shirt bras, as others have complained, make great big ridges and look obvious. So I can’t win for losing.

The thin little pretty bras don’t really do a lot for me either, though. I like them, but my boobs have a lot of volume but not a lot of shape, so anything insubstantial just kind of lets them run amok in an unflattering and physically uncomfortable way. Anything with just a leetle bit of padding or lining would be ideal, but it doesn’t seem like such an animal exists. Hell, I have enough trouble finding bras that don’t have boobs in them already.

(Throughout this entire post, I’ve been feeling my own bra to determine its pros and cons, and I’ve only just become aware of it such that I hope none of my coworkers have walked by.)

Comment #103: ACG  on  03/14  at  05:51 PM

Conveniently for the bra industry, padded bras have a much shorter life thanks to their propensity for becoming warped and showing through your clothes after maybe a few months of wear.  I still wear them anyway, because there’s no way I’m paying $50 for something that doesn’t last a year.

keshmeshi @69:

This is where I learned how to prevent that. Not that I use it anymore, but I haven’t had warpage issues since I figured that out.

Thanks, Hedwig! <3

Comment #104: Hobbes  on  03/14  at  06:06 PM

#100 haha! You’re right. Wow, that looks weird.

#102: Me. I love my functioning mammary glands, but I don’t need these big fleshsacks for that.

Comment #105: kristin  on  03/14  at  06:10 PM

Lisa: YES ALL THE TIME. It would make things SO much easier.

catgirl, I totally hear you on the button-down shirts. Bravissimo, for what it’s worth, carries clothing as well as bras, and it’s cut to accommodate busty people. What I really appreciate about their clothing is that it’s not just sized along one axis, like most clothing, but on two, so the size you get depends on your bra size as well as your body size. Unfortunately, the range isn’t huge (8 - 18 UK).

Comment #106: Amphigorey  on  03/14  at  06:12 PM

Getting back to the hijab issue, I remember when the French law banning them in public buildings (including schools) was passed in 2004 it was worded as a ban on “visible sign of religious affiliation” which, obviously, would also ban the Orthodox Jewish yarmulkes and Sikh turbans that are considered required for men in those groups.

I don’t know what has happened in practice.  I would guess that the law has been applied to Muslim women and not to any men, but does anyone here know?

It is also illegal since 2010 to wear a burqa in France anywhere in public, says Wikipedia.

Comment #107: Nutella  on  03/14  at  06:38 PM

Lisa: Yes. Mine are not large, but I get so tired of having these unsupported flesh-lumps flopping about and getting squashed and so forth. I just don’t see the point.

Comment #108: Ledasmom  on  03/14  at  07:00 PM

Guys love ‘em, that’s for sure. At least they have to lug around their packages, so they weren’t given a total break.

George: Do women know about shrinkage?
Elaine: What do you mean, like laundry?
George: No.
Jerry: Like when a man goes swimming… afterwards…
Elaine: It shrinks?
Jerry: Like a frightened turtle!
Elaine: Why does it shrink?
George: It just does.
Elaine: I don’t know how you guys walk around with those things.

Comment #109: Lisa Love  on  03/14  at  07:13 PM

Lisa Love - not really. But I swim, and I appreciate the extra buoyancy.

Comment #110: purpleshoes  on  03/14  at  07:46 PM

I know the large of busom don’t need extra fitting advice, but taking in a shirt that fits in the chest and doesn’t fit through the ribcage is a fairly straightforward tailoring operation. That doesn’t mean that you can find someone who will do it for a price you can afford, and god knows fitting a nonstandard body carries enough hassles already. But seriously, I could do it, and I suck at crafts, so if you can find someone to do it for the price difference between a special large-busom shirt and an off-the-rack shirt, it’s worth considering.

Comment #111: purpleshoes  on  03/14  at  07:48 PM

This is pretty OT, but I have to say I envy the ladies on this thread.  My nipples are inverted - they get a bit pointy if I’m cold/aroused, but there’s no way they’d show through a shirt.  I think everyone agrees prominent nipples are sexy - that’s why they have to be covered up by the stupid “tshirt bras”.  Which, BTW, are beyond useless for me. :(

Comment #112: nico  on  03/14  at  07:54 PM

Even though I don’t wear sports bras (as if I can find one in my size), I have a hell of a time finding button-down shirts that don’t gap across the bust.

Wow. Checking Nordstrom’s on line, this is a sad time for busty women who want shirts to wear with suits. There are no styles that will mask the gaps. What my wife once did to a favorite shirt to reduce gappage was sew strategic small snaps halfway between the buttons

Comment #113: Hector B.  on  03/14  at  08:06 PM

nico - Mine are flat-to-inverted. Everything is small. On my +5’-8” broad-shouldered frame. An A cup is too big, and a 36 band is borderline too snug.

Meh.

Comment #114: teac  on  03/14  at  08:17 PM

I think everyone agrees prominent nipples are sexy

Again, pace kristin, the tit is not the functioning mammary gland.  Indeed-

Shit.  I am going tio cut myself off right there.  If I’m talking about breasts to a bunch of women then the drift into mansplaining has gone waaaay too far.  I need to take a break.

Comment #115: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/14  at  08:38 PM

Olivia—I’m a man; I don’t think I tend to particularly stare at women’s breasts.  I’m straight, so of course I like looking at women—but I’m not a starer, and nobody’s ever accused me of being rude in that particular way.  I have no problem keeping my eyes on another person’s face while talking; it’s just not something I have to think about.  It’s my normal mode of functioning.  (Besides—the most important sex organ in the body is the brain, and that’s pretty much where my eyes are pointed <g>.)

But.

I *am* a compulsive reader.  If there’s writing on a shirt, it’s almost *impossible* for me not to read it.  It has little or nothing to do with the shape of the person inside the shirt, and in fact I sometimes get a bit embarrassed, wondering if they think I’m staring at their boobs rather than trying to read the damned shirt.

Just one data point, for what it’s worth.

Comment #116: BruceF  on  03/14  at  08:54 PM

You guys and your “udders” jokes are making my day. Thank you.

I have a single T-shirt bra that is wireless and as close to demibras as you get, and I wear it very occasionally if I have a shirt that gaps a bit at the top.  I’m lucky to be a nearly perfect 34A—-not perfect boobs, but the size fits me really well—-and I honestly didn’t think about what would happen if I was in-between cup sizes.  Which now I realize is totally possible, since I’m really in between a 9 1/2 and a 10 in shoe size, a constant pain.  I feel for anyone who doesn’t fit into the standard sizes.  Flexible bras I like better just because I think I look just fine, thankyouverymuch, being flat-chested, but I can totally see how they are also just less miserable for women who are in-between.

I’m not denouncing T-shirt bras; like I said, I found one that actually works and I use on those occasions when having the girls pushed up slightly makes a shirt fit better.  But the mandatory nature of them bothers me.  Natural breast shape laying on the chest looks just fine, thankyouverymuch.

Comment #117: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/14  at  08:57 PM

I hate tshirt bras.  They never fit right, then the bra store wants to sell you more expensive, wider versions to take care of the back-fat bulge that inevitably happens by the time you’re done fucking around with sizes to make the boobs feel halfway properly supported.  Which wouldn’t be a problem if the things were shaped properly in the first place.

Comment #118: Kyso K  on  03/14  at  09:21 PM

Padded bra liberation: a historical and cultural artifact:

http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/museum/artifacts/archives/002043.asp

Comment #119: Hector B.  on  03/14  at  09:28 PM

The closest I have come to this is when my dad had a few fashion rules that he followed.  He was an arrogant, high-paid executive who wore a business suit nearly every day.  He told me that it’s not proper for men to wear a dress shirt without an undershirt, and also that short-sleeved dress shirts are dorky.

Catgirl, don’t be so hard on your dad:  clothing is situational.  Full length socks for men may be required at work, but sockless is fine at a weekend event:  I’m sure nip etiquette is the same.

I’m an arrogant, high-paid executive wearing a business suit, but I only wear it as a signal that says “I can make decisions.” Well, also, black suit, white shirt goes with any tie smile

Comment #120: gorobei  on  03/14  at  09:50 PM

I really appreciate the links! Thanks so much! I’m a 39DDD, so generally wear a 38DD, because all the DDDs are ugly and uncomfortable, at least the ones that I own.

So far no one has complained about my nipples, but I do wear layers and sweaters in the winter, so it just might be that they are well hidden.

I do wish that it was easier for every size to find well fitting, well made bras that aren’t ugly.

Comment #121: Bethynyc  on  03/14  at  09:51 PM

Considering Catgirl and HP have pointed out that women get fired for being “Unprofessional” because they have large breasts.

Or simply because they have breasts at all. While I’m sure it’s much worse for those who are large-breasted, I’ve been criticized for being “unprofessional” while wearing bras that didn’t completely hide the nipples in recent years and I’m only a 34AA. Ironically, I was wearing a shelf bra tank + v-neck shirt today (the boobs are so small, I only wear v-necks with tanks underneath because v-necks in woman’s sizes tend to gape on me) and got some umm, hints about it from a female coworker. The tank doesn’t quite fully suppress the nipples :(

Comment #122: hp  on  03/14  at  09:54 PM

You said you’re a 32HH so I was just wondering if you are September Carrino.

What the fuck? 

I’m trying to think of a way in which this (twice repeated!!!) comment could be taken as a witty, feminist play on the assumption that the bigger one’s breasts are, the more sexual and/or pornographic they are, and not just another iteration of that assumption.  Like a joke…somehow.

But I’m having a hard time with it, so maybe you could clarify.

Comment #123: sophonisba  on  03/14  at  10:00 PM

I’m actually FOR burka bans in Europe. I mean, lets call it what it is; domestic abuse. I think it castrates religious extremism from sociologically rolling into a huge snow ball and dumping itself on the population at large. Burkas also cause health problems and make life inhibiting (imagine eating in public in one of those, its impossible). They are also a safety risk for others. Imagine driving in one of those things! That could injure others or herself. There is also no true way that she would trully end up not going anywhere. I think she would soon realize that she cant be kept from the world due to not wearing that outfit. I mean, she knows the laws. The husband also cant keep their lifestyle away from others as I’m sure they have friends over and what not. So that right there would be a way of breaking through. Regardless I think its a poor excuse to try and say lets not ban burkas because that means she will stay home all day. More likely she’ll just discard the burqa and venture outside without it. The burqa is also a very sheer double standard the likes of which we have no equivalent in the west. It says that men arent responsible for their own sexual impulses and reinforces a very misogynistic understanding of sexuality and assumes her to be capable of inspiring evil impulses in the male (she is seen as a constant temptation and being sexually tempted is seen as an evil). It is also homophobic and presumes all men and all women are heterosexual. And now that they have bans that means that at most any one that even wore a burqa is a dying species since they wouldnt allow immigration by those that wear burqas to their country. Instead they will get women who dont want to don such an overtly sexually objectifying outfit and end up contributing to the progress women in the west have fought so hard to be able to have.

Comment #124: Bean Slap  on  03/14  at  10:10 PM

#4 catgirl,
Why fight over which is worse? If you ask me, I would say the burqa, but they both suck and they both have basically the same reasons behind it which is misogyny. Were also talking about France not the U.S. which has far less Christian loonys running around.

Comment #125: Bean Slap  on  03/14  at  10:15 PM

Personal datapoint: just spent a week in Toronto. The variety of hijab of display made it quite clear that anyone talking about them as if they were all the same is pretty much full of shit or hopelessly ignorant. Black, white, other coloured, long, short…there was one woman staying at the same hotel I saw a few times who changed the style she wore obviously based on whether she felt like wearing her hair up or down that particular day.

Comment #126: KeithM  on  03/14  at  10:31 PM

I remember people making fun of simon cowell due to his prominent erect nippledge when he wears his tight black shirts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpOmRkdmUQo

Comment #127: Bean Slap  on  03/14  at  10:32 PM

I’m actually FOR burka bans in Europe. I mean, lets call it what it is; domestic abuse.

In the West, only a tiny minority of Muslim women wear the burqa. Are their husbands or fathers especially abusive? Or is it possible that a woman chooses to wear one from her own free will?

Comment #128: Hector B.  on  03/14  at  10:33 PM

If we’re going to outlaw burkas for being patriarchally abusive, a health hazard and life restricting, don’t forget to include high heels in the ban too.

Comment #129: kristin  on  03/14  at  10:50 PM

I note the context-sensitive ads I see are for full body shapers.

Comment #130: Hector B.  on  03/14  at  10:56 PM

First, I think sadironic is a fine word.

Second, there’s a 30 Rock web clip that I can’t find where Liz councils Cerie the assistant about professional attire. Along the lines of,
L:No, you really need to wear a bra.
C: No, they just stand up on their own. See?(bounces)
L:But no one will take you seriously in this business!
C: That’s ok. I plan to marry rich and design handbags.

Liz Lemon has used her bras for comedic effect and I’ve often wondered what about them makes them so “safe” for TV. Then y’all taught me about T-shirt bras and it clicked. A favorite scene is where Liz is standing looking out the window and at the camera and she suddenly pulls her shirt up over her head, only to use a scented candle as deodorant. It was shocking yet harmless, and I attribute that to the awesomely plain bra Liz is wearing: her boobs look like a dress form.

Liz rips her shirt open at Jack’s Six Sigma retreat to get everyone’s attention. The scene gets attention because what woman rips her shirt open on TV? But really the bra is so reductive that scandal is precluded.

Comment #131: stryx  on  03/14  at  11:19 PM

OK, I’m too much of a nerd to let it go:

Jack the Writer, Season One, Episode Four.

Comment #132: stryx  on  03/14  at  11:27 PM

#128,
Hector, please dont tell me about “free will,” with such an incredibly regressive outfit. That stems straight from misogyny. Its not even part of their religion. Perhaps you also support FGM now to, because after all she says it was her own free will too?Please dont be so naive here. We know how religion works. Not to mention but since its only a small minority it shouldnt cause too many problems huh? It IS also a safety hazard. I swear if it was Michelle Duggar wearing such a rediculous outfit you’d have no trouble coming up with the most hilarious things to say about it, but for some reason a burqa we all have to stay mum about? As an atheist I treat them all the same.

Comment #133: Bean Slap  on  03/14  at  11:50 PM

#129,
High heels are not burqas. They are not religiously associated nor as inhibitive. Dont be so archaic to not recognize the differences. Most women dont wear them to work anyways but mostly for special occassions.  Most wear low heels. Heck even cowboy boots have a heel. Burqas cause rickets in babies born from these mothers. Can you find an equivalent for babies whose mothers wear heels? Does it keep a woman from performing the most basic functions of life such as eating? Does it reinforce a patriarchal expectation that women are evil and need to cover up to not ‘tempt men?’ If a woman is not wearing her heels is she forbidden from going outside? Dont be so broad you make yourself look ignorant. Remember dont be so open minded your brain falls out. I think thats apt in this situation. For every woman in France that wants to wear a burqa theres thousands more around the world who want nothing more than to burn theres. Those women instead should be given those opportunities that these women who wear burqas have in France. How much sense does it make to go to a new country and act the same as the old even though the laws are much more liberated? I mean you dont use it, you lose it and I’m not about to have that happen.

Comment #134: Bean Slap  on  03/14  at  11:59 PM

#107 nutella,
Yeah they had a sikh take off his turban before going into the French governmental building and had a girl take off her cross necklace in France. Religious wear is only allowed in their religious schools.

Comment #135: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  12:13 AM

Bean Slap, the point is, outlawing this stuff is not the solution. All of it is patriarchal and toxic—high heels, waxing, dieting, the whole compulsory-femininity-performance thing, foot binding, corsets, burquas. There may be a difference in degree, but not in kind. But as long as people want to do these things, outlawing them won’t stop anyone. You have to get at the root.

And outlawing any piece of women’s clothing is inappropriate and going in the wrong direction. Once the government has the power to force us not to wear something, they also have the power to force us to wear something. Didn’t you read Amanda’s post? It’s exactly the same thing in the end.

Comment #136: kristin  on  03/15  at  12:17 AM

Bean Slap wrote “Burqas cause rickets in babies born from these mothers.”

I hadn’t heard this; it makes sense, though.  OTOH, it also presumably reduces the chance of skin cancer.  OTOH, so does sunscreen, without the other disadvantages of the burqa.  OTOH… never mind, I’m starting to look like an octopus.

I’ve heard interviews of Muslim women claiming that they are feminists (a claim which I always personally honor) and that they like the burqa because it directs attention away from their bodies; they prefer attention paid to their words.  If chosen voluntarily by the women, I can’t argue with this.  (Certainly, I’d prefer to think that most men would pay attention to whatever is most relevant at the time, but that’s not my decision to make for them.)

I’m a high school teacher.  The school districts in which I’ve taught have dress codes; there are rules for both boys and girls, but I believe that the girls’ rules are both broken more often and disciplined more readily.  Rules include no obscenities or drug/alcohol references on clothing, shorts must be a certain length relative to the leg, no showing off cleavage, no exposed underwear, and so on.  Reasonable or not?  (I can argue it either way, but then I’m back to the octopus thing.  I’m mostly in favor of the dress code, although it’s awkward for a male teacher to enforce on girls.  I’ve enforced it, of course; that’s part of the job I agreed to do.)

Comment #137: BruceF  on  03/15  at  12:23 AM

I’m wondering if the collapse of the dotcom boom doesn’t play into this, with corporate taking the attitude “those filthy techies don’t know so much after all—into the tie with them!” and dresscodes in general subsequently getting stricter.

That said, I don’t mean to marginalize the role of gender politics—I think the trend has been unusually harsh on women. The wild proliferation of stiletto heels in the last few years for example—although I think a big part of it has been the mainstreaming of fetish culture (theoretically a step forward for the sex-positive movement), there’s something really screwy (at least to a guy who cares very little about clothing styles in general) about a young woman going out in sweatshirt, jeans, and five-inch heels—it just seems self-defeating to be wearing what are essentially fetish shoes in an ultra-casual situation.

I really can’t comment one way or another on the undergarment thing except for one thing: you shouldn’t have to dress in something inherently uncomfortable just to look presentable. Someday I hope it becomes acceptable for pretty much anyone to go to work in jeans, sneakers, and a polo shirt…

Comment #138: BrianX  on  03/15  at  12:31 AM

#44 hector,
Uhhhh, habits are so ugly! Its not surprisng womens religious outfits are so alike. They both come from the same idea about women being evil and not tempting men. Most religions are incredibly patriarchal and generally develop the same ideas about women from it. However todays nuns are largely more modern and ususally even dress like everybody else. Its weird that its their everyday sort in the muslim community that wear the muslim version of the habit. I mean with catholics its their “professionally” religious sort that has to wear that, not your everyday catholic (though it used to be different a couple of decades ago).Some religions are more seculrized. But yeah, when I was looking at this book showing catholic outfits over the centuries I was quite disgusted (the inhibiting outfits + their views on women) by the near swaddled outfits they had to wear. Outfits that disguise a womans identity and reinforce a sexist philosophy is nothing new. Ancient Athens women had to wear a sort of burqa too and could only leave their house when accompanied by a man related to them.

Comment #139: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  12:34 AM

Bean Slap:

Actually, the conservative Muslim style of dress is pretty closely related to nun’s habits—the habit is a very, very abstracted version of what was common dress for women in the late Empire, early medieval times, and the Muslim form came from what was fairly common in the Eastern Empire particularly.

Comment #140: BrianX  on  03/15  at  12:39 AM

#10,
They have enforced bans on yamulkes. It also doesnt single out muslims as shiks and girls that wear crosses have had to take theirs off. You couldve just spent 10 minutes googling that becfore taking the tokenist approach.

Comment #141: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  12:42 AM

you shouldn’t have to dress in something inherently uncomfortable just to look presentable.

I’ll go to drastic lengths
to prove I’m not a derelict

Pink Lincolns

Comment #142: stryx  on  03/15  at  12:49 AM

If a woman is not wearing her heels is she forbidden from going outside?

I don’t know, but this sentence puts me more in favor of allowing burqas.  If you make burqas illegal, then the women who wear them will probably just not go outside, or will not be allowed outside by their families.  Do you think that serves the greater good?

Furthermore, you spend a paragraph saying that the comparison of burqas to high heels is ridiculous, and then accuse us of supporting FGM because of “choice”.  Since when is comparing wearing a burqa to cutting out the clitoris and sewing shut the vaginal opening perfectly reasonable, but wearing a burqa and wearing heels are nothing at all alike?

In the case of banning the burqa, the thing that bothers me the most is that the law is aimed at punishing women who are just trying to survive in a frighteningly sexist culture.  If a woman goes out in a burqa and it is illegal, who do you think is going to get arrested?  Her father?  Her husband?  No, it will be her, the woman.  Do you really think the best way to stop sexism is to punish women who suffer by it?

Comment #143: Denise  on  03/15  at  12:58 AM

I’ve seen t-shirt bras.  I never bought one.  I own very few bras that have a shape, to be honest.  And one of them I only bought because it was pretty.  Not because it was in any way useful.  Nope, all I own are sports bras and bandini type bras.  My breast shape needs lifting (I’ll call it the “crab hand” shape—hold your hands out like open crab claws and that’s the shape), but I find that shaping can go to hell.  I don’t want to go to work or school or wherever else looking like I strapped a couple of oranges to myself for snacking on later.  And that’s exactly how I look when I wear a “normal” bra.

My cup size is between A and B, so finding bras isn’t really an issue.  And no one—even at work—ever criticized me for not having perky domes.  So I can consider myself lucky in that regard.  I did get nippley sometimes at work, especially in the summer (airrrrconditioninnnnng) so I started wearing suit jackets and walking around with my arms strategically placed.  I tried bandaids once and that was ... very painful and shall never be repeated.

Comment #144: BonAppetit  on  03/15  at  01:22 AM

The thing is, what makes burquas bad is that women are being forced to wear them—that they are not free to refuse them, because they might be beaten, harassed, abused, or held captive in their own homes.

But we already have laws against beating women, harassing women, abusing women, holding women captive. It’s a problem that these laws aren’t adequately enforced, but that doesn’t have anything to do with the specific item of clothing itself. Turn the laws that already exist on the people who are doing something wrong, the men of a patriarchal culture who abuse and intimidate women.

If you proceed to make the actual wearing of burquas illegal, then you’re essentially opting to turn your focus away from misogynistic abuse and harm to instead criminalize a woman’s choice of apparel that you personally disapprove of.

Comment #145: kristin  on  03/15  at  02:10 AM

Phoenician in a time of Romans? I have only two words for you questioning my experience: PISS OFF.  What a woman wears to the office is always a matter of public concern, so wearing a sports bra = bitchy commentary and concern-trolling field day.  And when it culminates in your beloved (no really, I adore her) grandmotherly boss telling you as nicely as possible that you look like jailbait AND a slob, well, it’s time to just bow to office politics and force my breasts back into Barbie shapes.

Thanks for the understanding from everyone else. >_< I just love how we all have different size breasts and NONE of us can win!

I think every woman should be able to wear whatever she damn well pleases, and if wearing a shapeless sack makes her feel comfortable and secure, for whatever reason, then POWER ON.  Frankly, all fashion rules are inherently sexist, whether fueled by modern modes or traditional mores. 

Frankly, I’m quite sure that banning burqas and other religious attire has nothing to do with concern for women’s well-being or separation of church and state or whatever the excuse of the day is; it’s really all about erasing Otherness from society.

Comment #146: verity khat  on  03/15  at  02:28 AM

I used to have freakishly large AND asymmetrical breasts (one was about 3 times bigger than the other), which made my life an absolute living hell.  Bras never fit, and those I managed to put on did unspeakable damage to the tendons in my shoulders and made it almost impossible to breathe…it was horrible.  When I turned 21, I had breast reduction surgery- and I’ve been braless & quite happy ever since.  To me, my breasts have always been a major annoyance…so getting rid of the damn things was probably the best thing I ever did for myself.

Comment #147: Zephira, Queen of the Space Weasels  on  03/15  at  02:32 AM

#143 Denise,
Oh denise! You seem to have clomped together all my posts and paid no attention to whom I was responding. The first one was to hector in which he said that it was choice by their own free will to wear the burqa. I was pointing out that if you allow that why shouldnt you allow FGM too? I mean, alot of these women say that they CHOOSE to do FGM. I also already answered why I thought it was unrealistic to suggest that if they werent allowed to wear the burqa that they would stay inside. Most likely they wouldnt. Even if they opted not to do that and instead their domestically abusive husbands forbid them from going out the burden of having her at home 24/7 would start to creep on him and her. Not to mention but having a burqa ban keeps new more ultra conservatives from coming in via immigration if they have a law that bans burqas. I’m for addressing it as a domestic abuse issue. I think that wearing the burqa out and about is reinforcing a submissive attitude to a very unhealthy view about women and it is homophobic. Basically if we ban it then we arent going to allow anyone else who wears it to come into the country meaning that the burqa wearers are going to be a mere generation long. It perpetuates an unhealthy sociology and is unsafe. I mean, imagine eating spaghetti in one of those! Women (and I’ve even heard of some gay men wearing them) wearing burqas should definitely be banned from driving due to safety risks. Her motions are already limited!Its not even part of their religion according to one Egyptian imam.

Comment #148: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  02:37 AM

#145 kristin,
But part of reinforcing abuse laws is keeping women from wearing burqas. I mean, its domestic abuse, causes health problems, is incredibly inhibiting and reinforces misogynistic beliefs about women and men. Someone has to step in with that and saying that theyre just going to stay at home is unrealistic. I cant imagine these women work so I’m sure they do household chores during the day and it would become a burden on their husbands if they were staying home all day doing nothing when theyre husbands would have to do everything. The burden of their own ultraconservative philosophy would start to weigh on them to the point of making them reconsider.

Comment #149: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  02:41 AM

#146,
I think it is about secularism and worry over maintaining womens progress. I mean, its the liberals there who are fighting for this. I think its definite worry over seperation of church and state and maintaining progress. Anyays I think paranoid speculation doesnt equate to making it wrong.

Comment #150: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  02:44 AM

think that wearing the burqa out and about is reinforcing a submissive attitude

You can’t legislate attitude.

Basically if we ban it then we arent going to allow anyone else who wears it to come into the country

Well, that’s just great. Women desperately seeking asylum for themselves and their families might not be able to get it, but the important thing is that Bean Slap won’t have to be offended by seeing their clothing choices.

Comment #151: kristin  on  03/15  at  02:44 AM

Ha! I usually use band-aids over my nipples as I hate to wear bras but dont want erections going on. I cant imagine what I’d do if I was a guy!

Comment #152: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  02:45 AM

But part of reinforcing abuse laws is keeping women from wearing burqas. I mean, its domestic abuse

Nope.

What women wear has nothing to do with abuse laws.

The fact that they are forced to wear things has to do with abuse laws. Trafficked women are often forced to wear skimpy clothing, so whatcha gonna do, outlaw that too? Then it’ll be illegal to wear either clothing that’s too modest or clothing that’s too revealing. Great.

Better to work on that whole “having choices and options” thing, and trust women to navigate the choices and options we *do* have as we see best. Almost like we’re adult human beings or something.

Comment #153: kristin  on  03/15  at  02:56 AM

#151 kristin,
Youve got to be kidding! You got that from my post? The burqa is an outfit that is based around ‘not arousing sexual impulses in men because women are evil,’ is incredibly inhibiting, causes rickets for both her and any babies she has, is inhibiting in lifestyle and yeah they found that some men trying to immigrate to France have been forcing their wives to wear the burqa. They were denied immigration status. To me I would also be in support if they decided to ban quiverfulls from going into their country. That all generates an unhealthy sociology. I only wish we could deport our radical christians from the U.S. however unfortunately theyre homegrown. Not to mention but these women arent seeking asylum often theyre just seeking better jobs. Their husbands are the ones that wont let them loose. They should seek asylum from him. Listen, progress can be easily eroded, societies have to protect themselves. Those that wear burqas are the ones that would only live like they did in their old country. The husbands would expect her to act the same and in the mean time you would tolerate domestic abusers, health problems from the burqa and safety issues. Perhaps due to their new rules the people whom are immigrating would realize that if they want asylum they have to drop their burqas at the door? Or perhaps wanting asylum will be so wanted that they will challenge the laws in their home country so they wont wear it when they immigrate. As well, alot of time these people arent seeking asylum but are coming from wealth like from saudi arabia. Would you say the same thing about FGM (ie, that they intend to send their daughter to sudan for FGM so just because of that they shouldnt be allowed to not immigrate)?

Comment #154: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  02:57 AM

I mean, what are they going to choose; misogyny or immigration? If they were truly seeking asylum they would drop the burqa at the door.

Comment #155: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  02:58 AM

#153 kristin,
Trafficked women are forced to wear skimpy outfits because they are being raped every day and they are made to show their flesh to attract men. Women who wear burqas are forced either by their background or by their husbands to play into an unhealthy script between the two genders. Comparing one to the other sounds like an incredibly false comparison kristin. Both are by force and both are domestic abuse and misogyny.

Comment #156: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  03:02 AM

And yes it does have to do with abuse laws. Wearing a burqa is domestic abuse and France is only inhibiting domestic abuse from being tolerated. I mean for craps sakes even Michelle Duggar/Jim Bob Duggar arent that regressive.

Comment #157: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  03:04 AM

....and human trafficking is illegal so I dont know what your point is. Theyre MADE to wear skimpy outfits, however the outfit itself is not misogynistic. A woman might wear a general similar type of outfit if she went clubbing and not be solicited. The outfit does not represent anything inherently misogynistic unlike the burqa nor is it inherently inhibitive, ie she can go to a cafe and eat spaghetti if she wants nor does it cause safety issues for civilians. The issue there is that she is made to work in the sex slave trade not her outfit.

Comment #158: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  03:09 AM

“Not to mention but these women arent seeking asylum but often better jobs”

I should say their husbands. I dont think many of these women work.

Comment #159: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  03:11 AM

The burqa is an outfit that is based around ‘not arousing sexual impulses in men because women are evil,’ is incredibly inhibiting, causes rickets for both her and any babies she has, is inhibiting in lifestyle

Yes. Undoubtedly. But discriminating against the woman who’s wearing it, even if she really, honestly wants to, seems… wrong.

Comment #160: banisteriopsis  on  03/15  at  03:20 AM

banisteriopsis,
Its not discriminating against her its discriminating against her misogynistic beliefs and her compliance in them.Again, it causes health problems, is inhibitive, isnt even part of their religion and who says she really wants to wear it? Many women are raised in ultra conservative homes and know nothing more. I mean, why would a woman wear it as its not even part of her religion? Then if shes just wearing it its because she beliefs that women incite evil impulses within men which is an unhealthy philosophy.Also I think the claim that she’ll just stay at home is an unvalidated one.

Comment #161: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  03:25 AM

Wearing a burqa is domestic abuse

Eh, who are the burqa-wearers abusing? Oh, you meant forcing someone to wear a burqa. In which case, yeah forcing someone to wear something they don’t want to wear just so you can pretend you won’t rape them… that’s abusive no matter what garment.

Re. nipples: I don’t usually see them visible on most of my coworkers, and mine pretty much never are. I generally dress in layers anyways, and not in really flimsy or clingy fabrics, so it’s not much of an issue. Sometimes other people’s nipples are a little distracting, when visible, because I’m not used to them (I’m not the best at maintaining eye contact—albeit I don’t stare at chests either!—so my eyes will be drifting around as usual and then I’m like NIPPLE no, wait, ignore it… I keep forgetting and then they catch my attention out of the corner of my eye again and I’m like OH right, I’m trying to ignore that and it makes it harder for me to work on my actual eye contact and listening skills… :p) None of which I blame on the benipp’ed woman obviously! That’s my weird eye contact deal.

Comment #162: Bagelsan  on  03/15  at  04:01 AM

The reason to ban burqas is to change the game theory.

In essence, we never know if a woman wearing a burqa is or is not doing so under the threat of bodily harm.  But we do know that many of them are.  We don’t know if that thread is particularly credible, so we also know that a number of them are doing so out of unfounded fear.

The point of a burqa ban is to reduce the number of women wearing burqas out of unfounded fear.  Since burqas are in and of themselves meaningfully harmful (reducing Vitamin D production, making identification next to impossible, etc.), there is a justification for burqa bans—but ONLY in countries where violence against women who do not wear burqas is a reasonable fear.

Comment #163: Punditus Maximus  on  03/15  at  04:37 AM

That came out weird.  What I meant to say is that it’s the combination of inherently harmful and freedom from fear which I find to be particularly persuasive.  Neither is fully convincing on their own to me, but the combination puts me over.  In NYC?  Wear whatever burqa you want; hurt yourself if you need to.  Fricking tie-dye the things if necessary.

Comment #164: Punditus Maximus  on  03/15  at  04:40 AM

Bean Slap, I have to question your rather blase assumption that women wearing the burqah will just spontaneously starting coming outside without it, rather than remaining indoors if it is banned. That, if I may say so, is some real privilege speaking there.

You’ve heard of full on purdah?  The practice of women staying indoors is not unheard of, at all.  And all the patriarchal controll in full force re the wearing of the burqah are not somehow going to melt away because of a law that’s widely (and in my view correctly) viewed as another stick to beat the immigrant Muslim population of France.

If France wants to spend time, money and political capital on improved the situation of women, Muslim and non-Muslim, in France, then there are about a zillion better ways to go about it.

Comment #165: Katherine  on  03/15  at  05:25 AM

#162 bangelsun,
No not just any outfit could be claimed to ‘evily incite mens sexual response.’ The perspective is that ANY part of a woman induces sexual response so therefore she must cover from head to toe her body. You cannot apply that same perspective to jeans as jeans reveal too much. This is why the burqa is a sort of black tarp over the woman so that it disguises both her identity and her physique.Not to mention but no woman chooses to wear the burqa. That comes from a combination of ultra conservative background and her husband expecting her to do it. She has been trained to think a certain way, its not willfull. No woman randomly wakes up some day and says, ‘gee I think I’ll put on a heavy, black, inhibitive outfit today for no reason other than I like it.’ It IS domestic abuse because it all comes from a sense of patriarchal control,possessiveness, subjegation and power. It is why she can only reveal her face to her husband and no one else. Its like ownership, ie the only person she can sexually incite is her husband and he wants her all for himself so to make sure no other guy gets aroused by her he makes her wear a identity demoting outfit-one which by the way there is no equivalent for the Muslim male so it doesnt go both ways.

Comment #166: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  05:53 AM

“Burqas cause rickets in babies born from these mothers. Can you find an equivalent for babies whose mothers wear heels?”

Fall hazards? Also, forget the babies, high heels can cause a lot of damage to the mother’s feet, bone structure, and posture and lead to chronic pain. Also, they have little to do with modesty, but a lot to do with standards of femininity and projecting an image of sexual availability, which can be just as bad.

Women that wear the burqa fall into two camps: those who elect to wear it (in which case you can argue that their choice was heavily influenced by social norms, but then so is the choice to wear high heels or a bikini), and those who are forced to by a family member. The latter group does not benefit from bans for the reasons Katherine and others discussed: if they aren’t allowed to wear burqas, their family will keep them from going out at all.

It is possible to criticize some of the ideals behind the burqa without painting those who wear it as hapless victims of an ideology that is far behind the west. Muslim women make conscious decisions about the degree to which, if at all, they follow the traditions and trends associated with their faith, just as a western woman makes a decision about which behaviours and clothes she feels comfortable with adopting or forgoing. Women may have only a bunch of bad options available to them under patriarchy, but the answer isn’t to attempt to ban them under law. There are ways around the law that can end up making women worse off than before.

Comment #167: Treefinger  on  03/15  at  06:03 AM

#165 katherine,
Purdah isnt necessarily religious and also entails that women not associate with any one that isnt related to them. So that would keep them in the house any ways. Not to mention but that would nearly be impossible since these people have kids and go grocery shopping, ect so they have to go outside. I also dont think strict patterns of purdah would be followed because the only way thats followed is if they lived in gender segregated societies like you have in Saudi Arabia. It would be nearly impossible to carry that out in Europe. Perhaps the government should consider purdah domestic abuse so if they find out about it they can do interferance with it. Listen, I’m not going to deny its domestic abuse. Also how is it “privilege?” She can choose or not to wear the burqa. So what do you mean, the privilege of choosing not to wear the burqa?She can do that as well, its not a skin tone, a sexual orientation or a gender.

Comment #168: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  06:06 AM

#167 treefinger,
First a bikini is not misogynistic. Men have the speedo so there are similarities. There is no equivalent of the burqa. And with falls it is only if a woman does not watch where she is going. With the burqa it is from vitamin D defeciency, causes fractures in the woman and her children are born with rickets and is caused no matter how careful she is. The only way to get vitamin d is via access to the sun. Women in burqas are also more depressed than the general population. There are also cowboy boots for men though I dont think men wear that as much as the heel. The heel does not make it impossible to do simple things such as eat spaghetti at a cafe or erode safety with driving. It also does not reinforce an incredibly homophobic and more extreme regressive attitude like the burqa does. I mean for gawds sakes shes covered head to toe in a dark colored cloth that disguises her identity, makes it impossible for people to recognize her individuality, see her expressions, read her expressions or communicate normally. The heel does not do that. Again even though you note that she probably is influenced by the society she grew up in you then contradict yourself and say that she is choosing consciously to wear the burqa. Of course this isnt true, no women would consciously choose to wear something like that. And yes in some cases a peoples culture is so stifled by religious extremism that they do end up being victims to a regressive ideology thats far behind much of the world, not just the west. Its the same kind of “consciousness” that induces a christian woman to teach her husband how to hit her when she does something wrong because its in their Bible. Its hardly what most would term conscious thought and more like unhealthy religious dogma. Again one could also substitute burqa and use the word FGM and apply your argument so that it appears you do not want to ban FGM.

Comment #169: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  06:32 AM

sophonisba,

I literally was curious if she was actually the September Carrino. I only asked because 32HH is such a unique breast size.

It was also meant to be humorous because, with all the ladies who get breast implants, they would probably be incredibly jealous of someone who is a natural 32HH.

Sorry, failed joke.

Comment #170: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  08:29 AM

Bean Slap:

Many women are raised in ultra conservative homes and know nothing more. I mean, why would a woman wear it as its not even part of her religion?


I thought feminists had a thing whereby we don’t presume to tell other women what their own experiences are?

Determining what is or is not “part of her religion” (i.e. Islam) is so much more complex than you pretend; there is no single correct form of Islam, from which everything else is a ‘cultural’ deviation, any more than there is of Christianity or Judaism. Or, for that matter, of feminism (as this thread proves!).

Regarding the choice or otherwise to wear the burqa, you’re being obtuse and not a little Islamophobic. As numerous people have noted upthread, here are plenty of uncomfortable, inconvenient or even downright harmful examples of Patriarchy-driven clothing norms that many women nonetheless enjoy wearing. To take the example used above: high heels not only make you a much less mobile pedestrian, interfere with driving, and damage many floor surfaces; they also do long-term harm to your feet, back etc. And yes, some women have no choice (work dress codes) but to wear them, even if they don’t want to; others feel a more subtle social pressure to perform femininity; but other women *do* want to wear them, for their own reasons, as we have discussed here at Pandagon before.

The fact that the burqa is often conceived of - and used - as an instrument for the control of women, doesn’t make control the only way it can be conceived of or used. (I know less about the burqa, but travelling around in Syria and Jordan last summer I saw plenty of evidence that the hijab can be a - sometimes very striking - statement of individuality and fashion, not simply a shapeless anonymiser.) Since you don’t know why any given woman that you pass on the street is wearing a burqa, why not pause before you judge?

Finally, I agree with those who have argued up-thread that, in cases where the burqa *is* driven by abuse, it’s absolutely the wrong thing to punish women for trying to protect themselves by wearing it. The burqa is an extension of purdah, and as such it is the only thing that allows women who are part of purdah-observant households to move around outside the home. Fight the abuse, not the coping mechanisms. Likewise, I’d be very wary about deciding on burqa-wearing as a barrier to immigration - if there is abuse involved, surely it’s in the very strong interests of the woman concerned that she come to live in a country with a stronger (if still far from perfect) infrastructure of law and support for victims of domestic abuse?

(Obviously this is a complicated issue, and there may be a number of reasons why being an immigrant would make it harder for a woman to escape from domestic abuse: the linguistic and social isolation of living in an alien country; racism on the part of the host country’s institutions; intensified abuse on the part of the husband/father in response to the challenges of the aforementioned isolation, ‘temptations’ of ‘permissive’ host country, etc.)

Comment #171: Nic_C  on  03/15  at  08:36 AM

Bean Slap, you’ve made some very interesting, thoughtful, and informative posts here.  Thanks.

Comment #172: Daisy  on  03/15  at  08:36 AM

“The bikini is not misogynistic… the speedo”

If you think men in speedos are as objectified as women in bikinis, then LOL is all I can say. Speedoes and bikinis are not inherently different (apart from the fact that the bikini has a top part because oh noes women’s breasts are immodest and men’s aren’t), but we live under a system where they are treated differently.

“you contradict yourself”

No, you can be both influenced by society and make a choice to a degree. In the case of a woman her reasons for choosing to wear it or not to wear it are both influenced by society. All our decisions are, and that’s why we say our agency is limited. We still have that agency, though.

“no woman would consciously choose to wear something like that”

In this sentence you are speaking for other women. I have listened to women who wear the burqa and other similar items who say they made the closest to a conscious choice possible. Are you saying they are lying about their experiences?

“makes it impossible for people to recognize her individuality, see her expressions”

It makes it impossible for them to see her visual individuality, but remember many people would rather be judged for the individuality of their thoughts and actions than what they look like. I’ve often thought people were too distracted by the way I look to notice the individuality of my personality. Parodoxically they’d probably notice it more if I was completely invisible (like on the net- no one in this conversation knows what I look like, so they must concentrate on what I have to say and judge it on its own merits). In a room full of women wearing the same burqa, you distinguish yourself by what you say and do. No one will discount what you say because you’re fat, ugly, pretty, too black, too brown, too butch, too femme, missing an arm, or whatever else. They might dismiss it because the burqa identifies you as a woman (and if you’re among people who aren’t muslim, because it implies your religion) but as I keep saying, that’s a problem that all female garments have.

“it appears that you do not want to ban FGM”

Yeah, I don’t. Holding down women and girls against their will and practicing it? That should be banned. But believe it or not there are adult women who say they chose to undergo genital cutting in later life (normally not the extreme infibulation kind, but still). While they probably would not have made that choice without the environment they grew up in influencing them, we can’t just say that because of that she shouldn’t be allowed to do it. Then we end up limiting her bodily autonomy even as we attempt to improve it. By the way do you also think practices such as clitoral piercings, female nullification (has pretty much the same physical effect of infibulation) and other genital body mods should be outlawed? What makes them any more of a choice than FGM? An average person would probably have the same reaction to nullification as you do to the burqa: “no woman would consciously do that. She must be mentally ill or pressured”. You have to look outside yourself and see that just because YOU would never do it, it doesn’t mean others wouldn’t.

We are agreed that religious dogma, whether Christian, Islamic, or otherwise, is harmful. But you seem to think secular misogyny doesn’t exist, or that it doesn’t exert the same pressure as religious misogyny.  And I say this as someone who has often worn high heels and bikinis, but more often wished for a garment that had the opposite effect. The burqa has very many problems, from the fact that it’s often imposed as a modesty measure to the absence of a male equivalent, but for some women it’s the best of a bunch of bad choices. I hope that in future we will live in a world where women will feel safe and valued on their character rather than appearance, and the burqa won’t be needed, but in this imperfect world some women feel it is.

Comment #173: Treefinger  on  03/15  at  08:56 AM

This is an amazing discussion.  I really feel my hackles rise whenever anyone compares high heels to burqas. 

I remember about five years ago, a Princeton Feminist was going off about something sexist in our culture.  I wish I could remember what it was, but I cannot.  It was something related to politics though.  And one of her classmates was a former Taliban, in fact, the very one who looked at a peace activst with disgust and spoke to her as if she were dogshit on his shoe, saying ” I feel sorry for your husband”.  The Princeton feminist was asked several times what about her Taliban classmate.  After trying to talk over the question, she finally answered that she wasn’t qualified to “judge’ other cultures, and Western culture had enough misogny to clean up.  In effect that’s what she said.

I’m not a PC feminist.  She was.  Woman-hating?  Not a culture.  Woman-hating?  Not a religion.  She was, to me, the very embodiment of a right-wing-created stereotype of a western feminist. 

Everything inside of me agrees with Bean slap here.  I don’t want burqas on the streets of NY.  If men were walking their wives around in dog collars and leading them by the attached chains, and telling them to bark, would we say, well, it’s their culture.  If we don’t allow them to put dog collars on their wives and make them bark as they’re walking the streets, then the women won’t ever be allowed out!

I do have some sympathy for the idea that banning the burqa could lead to furhter isolation for women who are forced to wear it, but i have NO sympathy or really tolernace for the bikini=burqa PC horseshit, which is exaclty what that is.

In the end, I have to say, after years of reading pro and con arguments about this:  I don’t want this shit in America, and in fact, I won’t tolerate it here.  And I’m not going to claim France should.  It’s dangerous, it embraces, by the very act of silent consent, the idea that women are things and property.

I won’t have that here.  And I know it’s very unpopular in Feminist circles.  But it’s my posiition.

And I am a Feminist.

Comment #174: Daisy  on  03/15  at  09:05 AM

LOL @ 173

“it appears that you do not want to ban FGM.”

“yeah, I don’t.”

Yeah, I’ll save myself the minute it would take to read the rest of your post.  You’re of no interest, nor could you possibly have anything of interest to say.

There you go folks - PC run amok.

Let the women be “Free’ to cut their clits off and sew up their vaginas!

hey, let’s have a march for it!

Comment #175: Daisy  on  03/15  at  09:08 AM

To add a bit to that last post, Bean Slap, the reason I am so against banning cultural practices is that people are still going to do them illegally, and an honest analysis shows that there is more complexity to things like burqas and adult FGM than to things like murder, rape and child molestation which are rightly banned. The law is a powerful tool, but not the best one for every job.

I prefer to think in terms of raising awareness of why these things are problematic, and giving them the tools to change when they’re ready, than bans. It may be a slow and tedious process but it gives better results. Banning practices people are attached to because they are problematic usually has the effect of them being replaced by a different practice with the same problems, or the ban being overturned within a few years due to popular demand, not to mention the impact of people’s lives of the fact that the few benefits of the practices will be lost. I have no problem with someone saying “the burqa’s existence is a testament to misogyny and oppression” as long as they can admit practices from their own culture are just as bad, and make an attempt to understand why some women will prefer to still wear it anyway.

Comment #176: Treefinger  on  03/15  at  09:10 AM

Political correctness is great, because it’s basically the same as just being correct, on account of the fact a PC analysis of something considers the issue from the perspective of voices that are usually marginalized. You get closer to the whole truth.

Comment #177: Treefinger  on  03/15  at  09:20 AM

BruceF, I appreciate what you say as a compulsive reader, but believe me when I say I can tell the difference between someone who is just reading what’s on the shirt and someone who is using that as an excuse to ogle. Many men are not as subtle as they think they are.

Comment #178: Olivia  on  03/15  at  09:48 AM

What the fuck?

I’m trying to think of a way in which this (twice repeated!!!) comment could be taken as a witty, feminist play on the assumption that the bigger one’s breasts are, the more sexual and/or pornographic they are, and not just another iteration of that assumption.  Like a joke…somehow.

But I’m having a hard time with it, so maybe you could clarify.

Considering that I have never seen Lisa Love commenting here before, I’m pretty sure that s/he is trolling us.  To me, s/he reminds me of all the frat boy doodz that pretend to be well-meaning just to hear more about women’s breasts.  Since I have big ones, I’m used to this sort of person steering the conversation from a legitimate criticism of the clothing industry into a porn-tastic event for their own titillation (pun absolutely intended).  I wasn’t really expecting this to happen on a feminist blog, but if it quacks like a duck…

Comment #179: bananacat  on  03/15  at  10:05 AM

Oh, for fuck’s sake. Since when it is acceptable to legislate what clothing an adult woman wears in public? How is treating another adult as a child who needs saving and can’t make her own decisions in any way contributing to her liberation? We don’t even do that in actual domestic violence cases - we don’t make it law that women have to leave a man who hits them, because that’s not going to fucking help if we put the force of law against that woman in a stupid attempt to make ourselves feel good. And assuming that every Muslim woman who is covering her face has been directly forced into it in an act of domestic violence is weird and shitty. It really is more equivalent to assuming every woman who wears high heels only does it because she’s afraid of being beaten, and discounting the soft pressures that act on people every day.

Also, is it acceptable to tell an adult that they can’t make surgical changes to their labia? I’m not going to shed many tears for labiaplasty, but what about genital piercings? What about tattoos that are close to the labia majora? What about shaving pubic hair, which can result in some horrifying complications - folliculitis can require a plastic surgeon to correct, past a certain point, and can lead to permanent pitting and scarring.

(Also, the idea that women who wear viels never leave the house is really weird. I know one woman who wears a full niquab, but not a burqua, who is a professor of biology; if you go to the Walmart near my house, you will see women in full veils eating together in the food court, paging through the magazines, stopping to greet a neighbor in the aisles, interrogating employees about why the price of canned squash went up. Maybe there are some women in purdah and in veils who I’ve never met, but in the meantime I’m going to treat women in veils like women in any other unusual hat and move on with my life, okay?)

Comment #180: purpleshoes  on  03/15  at  10:07 AM

This is an amazing discussion.  I really feel my hackles rise whenever anyone compares high heels to burqas.

Didn’t you read my comment about how I feel imprisoned because of bra size?  They don’t make comfortable bras in my size, and I can’t go out in public braless.  How is that not restrictive?

Of course, there is no law that I have to wear a bra in public, but there is also no law requiring burqas in European countries.  The constraints are societal.

And if I choose to go out without a bra and then someone rapes me, I’ll be blamed for it.  If any man harasses me, I’ll be blamed for it.  Some men will feel more entitled to assault me because of it.

Banning bras won’t make those issues go away.  You can’t just remove the symptom and expect the disease to be gone.  It’s the same deal with burqas.  Banning them won’t stop the male entitlement or victim-blaming.  It’s more complex than that.  We need to fix the misogyny first, and then these things will naturally disappear.

Making laws to ban the symbols of misogyny isn’t the right approach.  We need to get rid of the misogyny itself.

Comment #181: bananacat  on  03/15  at  10:11 AM

catgirl,

You are a shrewd interrogator. Yes, I’m a guy. I wanted to see how feminists would treat me if I expressed my genuine opinion, but did it under the guise of a female.

That being said, I think you may be onto something about the word, “titillation.” Perhaps “tits” has its origin in “titillation.” I’ve also always been curious about the similarity between God and good, and Devil and evil - but that’s another conversation for another time.

Comment #182: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  10:45 AM

I found a fascinating article at Psychology Today called, “Why do breasts mesmerize?” Here is an excerpt:

...the female breast wields amazing power. Curvaceous women have leveraged this power to manipulate even the most accomplished, disciplined men for as long as anyone’s been around to notice. Empires have fallen, wills have been revised, millions of magazines and calendars sold…

Comment #183: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  11:11 AM

@182-183:

Could you go and read the Feminism 101 blog before continuing to comment here? No offence but you seem a little clueless.

The idea that women have power and control over men because men find them sexy is one of the oldest misconceptions in the book.

Comment #184: Treefinger  on  03/15  at  11:23 AM

That being said, I think you may be onto something about the word, “titillation.” Perhaps “tits” has its origin in “titillation.” I’ve also always been curious about the similarity between God and good, and Devil and evil - but that’s another conversation for another time

I hear they have these neat things called “dictionaries” that can help you out there.  (Hint:  no, etymology does not work that way.)

Comment #185: sophonisba  on  03/15  at  11:23 AM

It’s interesting, because as I was reading this a conversation on twitter came up, only between women, about younger women/girls dressing “slutty” and while that sort of outright social policing is beyond me, this post has made me realise that while I don’t say anything to the women I judge, I do very much judge people who don’t wear “appropriate” bra’s. I’ll be trying to stop that.

Comment #186: Leah Jaclyn  on  03/15  at  11:27 AM

sophonisba,

Thanks for talking to me like I’m an idiot. Hint: feminism should not equal bitchism.

Comment #187: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  11:31 AM

Psychology Today?  Really?  Someone needs to lurk moar.

Anyway, dudes pretending to be women to ask about my boobs is basically the oldest trick in the internet book, so it’s ridiculously easy to see through.  Why they think I’d be more willing to talk about it to women is something that I have yet to figure out.

Comment #188: bananacat  on  03/15  at  11:39 AM

Catgirl,

I’m sorry the article is not from Feministing, but that’s probably because it was written by a doctor.

Comment #189: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  11:44 AM

And he keeps going.  How cute!  This is the cutest troll we’ve had since Austin Nedved, the recent high school grad that didn’t understand plant reproduction.  Looks like my boring day at the office will be slightly less boring.  It sure is fun when trolls think they are clever.  There’s something very endearing about it.

I’m guessing that Lisa is not aware of the overlap of feminism with skepticism, and is therefore unable to recognize pseudoscience whenever there is a convincing authority figure involved.  And I’ll go out on a limb and guess that because I’m a woman, it never crossed his mind that I am a scientist.

Comment #190: bananacat  on  03/15  at  11:55 AM

catgirl,

Of course you are not going to say I am clever because you don’t want to weaken yourself. So, your saying that I think I am clever signals you think I am clever. Thank you for the compliment.

Additionally, this is an example of a sexist statement: “And I’ll go out on a limb and guess that because I’m a woman, it never crossed his mind that I am a scientist.”

That’s like if I said you probably like the movie Gone With The Wind because you are a woman.

Comment #191: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  12:06 PM

catgirl

Banning bras won’t make those issues go away.  You can’t just remove the symptom and expect the disease to be gone.  It’s the same deal with burqas.  Banning them won’t stop the male entitlement or victim-blaming.  It’s more complex than that.  We need to fix the misogyny first, and then these things will naturally disappear.

I’d add aborting female fetuses to this.  Forced birthers like to bring this up, thinking it will bring feminists on board, but most will realize that banning abortion would not change the underlying misogyny that creates a preference for boys.  And it’s not like people wouldn’t work around an abortion ban through infanticide or early death through neglect or starvation.

Treefinger

It makes it impossible for them to see her visual individuality, but remember many people would rather be judged for the individuality of their thoughts and actions than what they look like. I’ve often thought people were too distracted by the way I look to notice the individuality of my personality. Parodoxically they’d probably notice it more if I was completely invisible (like on the net- no one in this conversation knows what I look like, so they must concentrate on what I have to say and judge it on its own merits). In a room full of women wearing the same burqa, you distinguish yourself by what you say and do. No one will discount what you say because you’re fat, ugly, pretty, too black, too brown, too butch, too femme, missing an arm, or whatever else. They might dismiss it because the burqa identifies you as a woman (and if you’re among people who aren’t muslim, because it implies your religion) but as I keep saying, that’s a problem that all female garments have.

“Because the burqa identifies you as a woman” is key to why women wearing the burqa are *not* judged for the individuality of their thoughts and actions, but rather by what they look like.  Because what they look like is women.  The net makes for a good example.  A name like Treefinger is not coded as feminine, so, yes, I imagine you can be invisible on the net.  But for those that can be identified as female (as a burqa surely does, or even a headscarf), the internet is certainly not a haven for women, where they’re treated with respect and judged by the content of their words.

What we’re seeing with “respectful” treatment of women who cover up is benevolent sexism:
http://www.understandingprejudice.org/asi/faq.htm
It’s men being nice to women who are signalling they’re down with the patriarchy.  And by that I’m not saying that a woman who covers up isn’t a feminist, but that’s the perception of her, at least in the West.  Just because a guy isn’t hostile or openly leering at you, doesn’t mean he thinks you’re his equal.  He may be just OK with thinking you know your place.

Comment #192: rain  on  03/15  at  12:28 PM

catgirl,

I suspect you’re trying to think of a brilliant response, but let’s just call a truce and not go any further with this who-has-the-bigger-dick/tits contest.

Comment #193: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  12:30 PM

@catgirl

And he keeps going.

And going, and going, and going, and going…

How cute!  This is the cutest troll we’ve had since Austin Nedved, the recent high school grad that didn’t understand plant reproduction.  Looks like my boring day at the office will be slightly less boring.  It sure is fun when trolls think they are clever.  There’s something very endearing about it.

Austin Nedved certainly did set the standard and it would be incredibly unfair to expect an udder troll to come close.  That being said, I think that you’ve won the cute “clever” troll lottery (probably with your apparent coyness noted in #191).  A modern-day breast-obsessed Mr. Collins.

Finally (and to return to the topic of the thread), I don’t recommend taking Lisa Love up on his proposed truce in the big-dick/tits contest.  I am reasonably certain that his dick would have no problems fitting inside a standard-sized T-Shirt Bra.  Winner: catgirl!

Comment #194: Atheist, A Feminist  on  03/15  at  02:25 PM

I just recalled that once it was popular for American women to take the veil: when our grandmothers and great-grandmothers wore… the whimsy:

http://www.vivavintageclothing.com/site/largepics/703/99341/347846/476793/LH136-black_net_whimsy_60s_hat_polka_dots_veil_-_2

Comment #195: Hector B.  on  03/15  at  02:35 PM

rain:  ““Because the burqa identifies you as a woman” is key to why women wearing the burqa are *not* judged for the individuality of their thoughts and actions, but rather by what they look like.”

Taking them out of the burqa won’t make them any less women.  They simply won’t be judged on what kind of woman they are other than one who wears a burqa so can’t be dismissed as a harlot.

Look, if I grew up in Tahiti wearing little or no clothing and moved to the West, I would wear clothing if I wanted to be taken seriously in a business meeting.  While I would feel imposed-upon, it would be a practical solution for me.  For women in countries where a burqa or an abaya is considered required wear, leaving it off means you won’t be taken seriously.

Like any feminist message, the more different ways it can be expressed, the better.  There’s no one feminist response to anything simply because we are all individuals.  Yelling, screaming, whispering, gently persuading, mocking, flatly asserting, each has its audience.  You won’t reach everyone with any one method.

Comment #196: oldfeminist  on  03/15  at  02:47 PM

Atheist,

If you want to know how big I am, there’s no need to dance around the question. Just say, “Hi, how big are you?”

I am…huge. Peter North is jealous of my size. Just kidding.

Comment #197: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  02:52 PM

WOW Daisy!Thanks! I agree with the PC thing. I mean I had already thought it out from different angles. Yes, the west has sexism, but nothing like the burqa. I hate it when they try and compare the bikini to the burqa-its assinine. I mean, I’m a liberal too but being a liberal doesnt mean being daft and denying reality to be brain dead “sensitive.” I remember on feministing a while ago they posted a pic of a fashion show put on by a famous designer and he was having a burqa fashion show. I mean, for gawds sakes, they appluaded it! These designers often induce anorexia/unhealthy body image or fixation on external beauty, are often male in and now theyre doing a burqa fashion catwalk show and were supposed to applaud? It was the same thing when they applauded “burqa barbie,” for showing diverse cultures. Its like, you do know these women are FORCED to wear those things right? How dumb can you be? Its literally applauding the mens definition of women in that culture that they are forced to wear and acting like they CHOOSE to wear it and that the clothing is simply another piece of clothing and nothing more. Its stupid. I just couldnt perpetuate the denial anymore. And I HAVE thought about it, read about it, examined it-its not like I just up and sprung my perspective out of no where.

Comment #198: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  03:22 PM

“Its like, you do know these women are FORCED to wear those things right? How dumb can you be?”

You are not paying attention to the people debating with you. We KNOW that many women are forced by a family member to wear the burqa, and we AGREE with you that is terrible, and we don’t see it as a choice. We also agree that being overtly forced to do this is worse than a woman deciding to wear high heels. However, there are OTHER muslim women who are NOT forced by a family member to do these things, and it is the choice THOSE women make that we compare to the choice to wear bikinis and what have you. Because the burqa and western paraphernalia both have sexist origins and/or connotations, but the women involved are not being directly forced by a third party, we call that as close to a conscious choice possible. And though it’s an imperfect choice, banning isn’t the answer.

By the way, when I see “I’m not a PC feminist!” my brain translates it into “I’m a white middle class American woman who can’t be bothered to see things from the perspective of those less fortunate”.

Lisa Love, you have the logical faculties of a dried turd. Please go away before you embarass yourself further.

Comment #199: Treefinger  on  03/15  at  03:44 PM

Treefinger,

I know this is embarrassing, but embarrass is spelled e-m-b-a-r-r-a-s-s. Embarrass.

Such is my opinion of your abilities as a critic that I very much prefer your disapprobation to your applause.

Comment #200: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  03:54 PM

Gawd hector, did you even READ Daisys post? Your “veil” is not the equivalent of the burqa. Not to mention but it wasnt part of religion but what they thought looked exotic. Its also why we dont wear those things any more. I dont see any change or evolution coming for these women (like what happened in America in the 70’s to make those fall out) especially since all you types do is deny reality (ie, the burqa is no different than the bikini). The only way they would drop it sociologically is if you quit enabling them.

Comment #201: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  04:08 PM

Obviously a single misspelled word from someone who makes very few spelling mistakes is a genuine faux pas and not a typo. And obviously poor spelling abilities invalidate my criticism, which I’ll inform you was based on your idea that assuming someone who has shown sexist behaviour harbours sexist beliefs is the same as harbouring a sexist belief. Evidently the more pertinent issue here, that of you being a privileged douchebag whose tiresome words retard the discourse, is overshadowed by a missing r.

I bow to your mighty phallus.

Comment #202: Treefinger  on  03/15  at  04:14 PM

Thank you, catgirl!  I have large breasts too and you make a lot of really good points about how we can’t just stop caring about what people think, it’s not that simple.  I am also a scientist too! :D I think that makes the breast problem worse, being in a field that’s still male-dominated in a lot of ways.  I worry that if I don’t do a good enough job of hiding my breasts, people will think I’m showing them off on purpose and I’m not serious/smart/etc.  It really bothers me.

FWIW, carissarose.com has shirts that are designed for standard-sized people with large breasts. There’s more room at the bust and they have hooks & eyes instead of buttons so there’s no gaping. I need plus size for the bust but I’m well down into the standard size range for the waist and hips, so plus-size shirts don’t actually fit me.  I’ve tried wearing plus size shirts with a belt but the extra gathered material just makes me look dumpy.  I just made my own shirt, for a costume, by cutting the pattern in one size for the waist then drawing a line over to the largest size for the bust; that worked pretty well.

You know what else I hate? (haha, now I’m in ranting mode) People sneering about how people like us must have horrible back problems.  Like that’s the price we have to pay for daring to have large breasts, as if having large breasts without an otherwise socially-acceptable supermodel body gives us some kind of advantage.  Nope, it just makes people think we’re stupid/slutty/trying to get attention/sloppy and so on.

Comment #203: Gillian  on  03/15  at  04:39 PM

Treefinger,

I’m not privileged. I was born with high anxiety trait. I’m not privileged, Treefinger.

Comment #204: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  04:44 PM

That means you are not neurotypical and therefore not mental health privileged (guess what, neither am I, got some anxiety issues of my own along with a heap of depression). It doesn’t stop you from having male privilege, and possibly white/class/hetero/cis/able-bodied privilege based on the other details of your life.

Seriously, it was fun to snark at you and all, but you should go and read the Feminism 101 blog, the Feminism wikipedia page, and the male privilege checklist. Lurk on some feminist blogs for a while, but don’t comment (I did this for a few years before I started saying things). The fact that you said that shows you are out of your depth in this debate, because you don’t seem to get the in-context meaning of words like “privilege”. If you want to learn, I wish you luck, but coming here under false pretences and then raising your hackles when people dismiss things like junk science articles (something we do all the time with little ado; it wasn’t a personal attack) isn’t the right way to go about it. If you don’t want to learn, please get your kicks somewhere else.

Comment #205: Treefinger  on  03/15  at  05:00 PM

At first I was perplexed by Lisa Love’s September Carrino question to me, but now he’s confirmed that it was, in fact, really fucking rude.

As a side note, people with large cup sizes aren’t that rare. It’s just that large cup sizes are impossible to find in the US unless you can find one of the very, very few specialty stores that carry British bras. There are plenty of women who are wearing 38DDD because that’s the best that they can find, when they’d be more comfortable in a 34G. Stores like Victoria’s Secret don’t even carry anything beyond D or maybe DD, and you’re lucky if you find DDD - only one size bigger! - in department stores. So it’s not the people who are rare, it’s the fucking bras. It’s incredibly frustrating.

Comment #206: Amphigorey  on  03/15  at  05:15 PM

Treefinger,

I actually do want to learn, which is why I am here. I’ve been reading this blog for months, so I’m used to seeing the male-privilege card pulled in desperation.

Comment #207: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  05:18 PM

Amphigorey,

There’s nothing wrong with being unique. It’s actually cool as hell to be unique.

I’m truly sorry about my September Carrino comment. It was a stupid-ass joke.

Comment #208: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  05:22 PM

You claimed you weren’t privileged, which indicates that you don’t understand what it means. Please go look it up.

Comment #209: Amphigorey  on  03/15  at  05:24 PM

I’m privileged because I’m a white guy.

When I said “I’m not privileged,” my point was, even though I’m a guy, I have some personal challenges. Of course, I’m not looking for sympathy because I know everyone has personal challenges.

Comment #210: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  05:36 PM

As a side note, people with large cup sizes aren’t that rare.

Half the insult was that ag was so far from the norm that she could be identified by her cup size; the other half was that she took her clothes off for a living.

Comment #211: Hector B.  on  03/15  at  06:10 PM

I remember on feministing a while ago they posted a pic of a fashion show put on by a famous designer and he was having a burqa fashion show. I mean, for gawds sakes, they appluaded it! These designers often induce anorexia/unhealthy body image or fixation on external beauty, are often male in and now theyre doing a burqa fashion catwalk show and were supposed to applaud

Sometimes life really does imitate life.  It reminds me of the final scene of Altman’s film “Pret a Porter” (English title “Ready to Wear”) where the designer in an emperor-has-no-clothes moment sends her models out on the catwalk literally wearing no clothes.  The fashion show audience bursts into wild applause.  The fashion industry is notorious for not being self-aware. 

As for Lisa, a big sigh.  Spring break will be over next week I think.

Comment #212: MiddleageLiberal  on  03/15  at  06:10 PM

“Half the insult was that ag was so far from the norm that she could be identified by her cup size; the other half was that she took her clothes off for a living.”

Indeed.  Yet he totally! wants to learn and totally! for reals! isn’t typing all his posts with one hand.  Though I suppose if Tampax’s forums are inhabited solely by middle-aged men with period fetishes pretending to be teenage girls talking about their periods, I suppose it really shouldn’t surprise that large-breasted women get harassed by creepy douchebags pretending to be women who just happen to be fascinated with the plight of the DD+s.

Comment #213: preying mantis  on  03/15  at  06:25 PM

Sometimes life really does imitate art.  Grrr.  sorry.

Comment #214: MiddleageLiberal  on  03/15  at  06:30 PM

Ya know I’m come in here, do a little talkie talkie, express my opinion and suddenly I’m goddamn Rush Limbaugh. If you saw my blog, you’d be like, “Damn, he’s liberal as fuck.”

Ya know, Hector, if you want to draw all those negative implications from my September Carrino question, go ahead. Just know that what you are inferring is not what I meant.

And finally, you can find my screen name in previous posts so the charge that I came here to solely talk tits is false.

Comment #215: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  07:34 PM

There’s nothing wrong with being unique. It’s actually cool as hell to be unique.

Dude, did you read what I said? People with large cup sizes are not rare

Have you been paying any attention to the women here who are saying how aggravating it is to find clothes that fit? That’s what being “unique” entails, and by “unique” I mean “more than one standard deviation from the norm.” If 20% of women need a size larger than D or a band outside the range of 34 - 44, that’s still a huge number of women who aren’t being adequately served by the fashion industry. (I am making up that number; I have no idea what it actually is, but it seems like a reasonable guess.) It is a huge pain to be outside the expected norm.

Comment #216: Amphigorey  on  03/15  at  08:47 PM

Amphigorey,

I was talking specifically about you in that comment. The size 32HH is unique. Actually, that was another reason I asked if you are September Carrino. She was the only American woman I could think of who might be a 32HH. I was complimenting you. I think being unique is cool, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a pain in the ass sometimes, too.

Comment #217: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  09:06 PM

Well I think the biggest boob here is lisa love snacks.

Comment #218: Bean Slap  on  03/15  at  09:10 PM

That was mean, Bean Slap. Insulting another person’s intelligence is a mean thing to do.

Comment #219: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  09:15 PM

Lisa Love,

My size is NOT UNIQUE. Not by a long shot. Look: British companies produce bras up to size K, and I’m sure if you’re bigger than that, you can find something if you dig a little. American companies, unfathomably, do not. You only think cup sizes larger than DD are rare because THOSE BRAS DON’T EXIST HERE, not because the PEOPLE don’t exist.

Keerist.

Comment #220: Amphigorey  on  03/15  at  09:34 PM

Various comments to random people from this admitted n00b here follow.

Olivia:  Point noted in #178.  Thanks for the observation.

Treefinger: I love your posts, and generally agree with your perspectives.  I particularly liked 173, 176, and 205.  I’ve considered myself a feminist for decades, and have participated in online feminist discussions often in the past (in particularly on Fidonet, if anyone remembers that, and Usenet), but I think it’ll probably be worth my while checking out the Feminism 101 blog you mentioned.

Lisa Love: Yes, you acted like a jerk and a fool… but there’s clearly more to you than a troll.  Even under (well-deserved IMO) attack, you were able to apologize and it felt real (in 208, for example).  I personally rather hope that you drop this particular misleading alias (it’s kind of pointless now that you’ve ‘fessed up anyway), and continue participating on a more honest basis and maybe more collegiate attitude without the baggage that you’ve accumulated as “Lisa”.

nic_c: I think I only saw one post from you (171), but I particularly liked it.  And, I generally agreed.

Bean Slap: I disagree with you more than not—but I find your posts thought-provoking and I enjoy reading them.

I now know more about bras, especially of the t-shirt and padded varieties, than I ever expected to.  And I had no idea of the controversies surrounding sports bras!  What initially lured me into this conversation was a Facebook link to the Salon / Fox News story posted here—I had no idea that I was getting into a feminist discussion of burqas, bras, and breasts that would go over 200 messages long!  It’s been an interesting ride so far; I thank you all.

Comment #221: BruceF  on  03/15  at  09:43 PM

In my experience, which doesn’t matter for shit since I’m a man, most women who are an HH cup are a 40 or higher. Having said that, if so many American women are bigger than DDD, why are American companies not accomodating? Shouldn’t it be a matter of supply and demand? Why are the Brits killing us on large bras?! Okay, that last question wasn’t serious.

Furthermore, I just did a google search for 32HH and this girl named Jordan Carver was the first result. Guys are going wild over her because of the uniqueness of her body!

Jueezus.

Comment #222: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  09:44 PM

“Having said that, if so many American women are bigger than DDD, why are American companies not accomodating?”

GOOD FUCKING QUESTION.

I can think of five people off the top of my head who I know personally and who wear sizes larger than DDD. IT IS NOT RARE.

Comment #223: Amphigorey  on  03/15  at  10:00 PM

Amphigorey,

Where do you live? Kidding!

Maybe I should start a large bra business. I could call it, “Victoria’s Secret: She’s Not A Stick.” Nah, too long. Names are tough.

Comment #224: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  10:10 PM

I have no idea why American companies don’t make bra sizes bigger than DDD, either. It’s been a pain for me to find bras my whole life. I can’t go into a store and try them on like I’d like to, instead I have to buy them online, which means shipping a whole ton back to the UK or wherever and paying for it.

Also, I’m assuming “32HH” is UK size, since American sizes don’t double letters after D. I myself am 32K UK size. (which like 32N American I think)

I mainly wanted to chime in about whether it was “allowed” to go braless. It’s not a LAW but man I don’t think I could keep a job if I did it!! Holy shit. My boobs go down to my belly button without a bra, and they SWING all over the place if I walk. It would be considered SERIOUSLY inappropriate for me to go without a bra. There is no way my boss wouldn’t “have a talk” with me about it and that my clients wouldn’t stare at me. It’d be like that South Park teacher who doesn’t wear a bra and her boobs hang below her shirt. Therefore, while I wouldn’t get arrested, I also wouldn’t have a job, and would probably be groped more than I already am on the bus, which makes it functionally not allowed.

My best friend is a size A and she thinks it would be inappropriate for her to go without one because her nipples show. She says everyone stares at them if she tries not wearing one, so she always does. You just can’t win!!

I think if you have breast implants, which make your boobs perk in the “bra shape” you can get away with not wearing bras.

Comment #225: slingshot  on  03/15  at  10:15 PM

I like Bravissimo in UK for underwire bras (they go up to L), and Decent Exposures in Seattle for custom bras non-underwire (for those times you want a comfy bra and don’t care about uniboob - I wear them around the house or at work during PMS when my boobs are tender)

Comment #226: slingshot  on  03/15  at  10:20 PM

The size 32HH is unique. Actually, that was another reason I asked if you are September Carrino. She was the only American woman I could think of who might be a 32HH.

Wow. That is incredibly stupid. You don’t honestly think you know the bra size of every American woman you meet, do you??

When men ask me my size I ask them to guess, and I usually get “36DDD”. That is so far off it’s not even funny, so I don’t think men just know a woman’s size by looking….

Comment #227: slingshot  on  03/15  at  10:23 PM

slingscock,

I don’t remember saying a goddamn thing to you. The point I was making was…ah, fuck it.

Comment #228: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  10:31 PM

Lisa Love, you’ve now progressed to telling people to shut their bitch mouths because you didn’t talk to them. You’re a douche, and we don’t care about your point.

Comment #229: purpleshoes  on  03/15  at  10:55 PM

Nicely done, purpleshoes. When in doubt, pull the sexism card out.

Comment #230: Lisa Love  on  03/15  at  11:04 PM

Ah, the irony. Ad posted underneath this thread:

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Comment #231: BruceF  on  03/15  at  11:10 PM

oldfeminist:

Taking them out of the burqa won’t make them any less women.  They simply won’t be judged on what kind of woman they are other than one who wears a burqa so can’t be dismissed as a harlot.

My point was that they are women, seen as women, dismissed as women, regardless of what they are wearing.
http://hijabman.com/journal/sexual-harassment-egypt-hijab/

. . . there have long been reports of the rampant sexual harassment on Egypt’s streets.

However, it was the “Clouds in Egypt’s Sky” study by the Egyptian Centre for Women’s Rights in 2008 that documented just how pervasive and insidious the practice was and is. It was a big study (more than 2000 participants) and gave some startling and telling results: not only did a whopping 83% of Egyptian women and 98% of foreign women report they have been sexually harassed, but 62.4% of men admitted they did it.

But I think one of the most important aspects of this study was that it found that 72.5% of victims surveyed were wearing hijab when they were sexually harassed.

The claim that women are somehow liberated or free from male scrutiny or assessed favorably because they wear a covering is utter. horseshit.  If a man considers himself entitled to dismiss a woman as a harlot because of what she wears (and let’s be clear that we’re not talking about hijab v. revealing Western dress, but hijab v. the full range of Western dress, including conservative styles), then he accords no respect to any woman.

Comment #232: rain  on  03/16  at  01:50 AM

#222 lisa love,
Men have breasts just check out Rush Limbaughs double D’s.

Comment #233: Bean Slap  on  03/16  at  02:35 AM

Wow I admit I haven’t been called “cock” before…

Comment #234: slingshot  on  03/16  at  03:37 AM

As a guy I had no idea this was even a thing until a couple years ago.  I had to have a girlfriend explain to me why she couldn’t go to work without a bra - I really was that clueless.  What the hell else has my privilege made me blind to?

So… I find myself wondering if the real issue here is being forced to wear clothing in the first place.  Outside of safety and health concerns, isn’t that a logical step on our path towards “my body, my choice”?  It might help in other ways too.  I know for me personally, having a few years of nude figure drawing helped demystify the human body; maybe the same thing could happen to people at large?  If nothing else maybe it would get straight guys to stop being crybabies about seeing another man’s penis.  Also I think within the conservative mindset there’s a parallel between gayness and nakedness - in both cases their minds inexorably land on SEX! (*horrified gasp*), but there’s much more to both than intercourse.

Comment #235: copper  on  03/16  at  04:26 AM

#180 purpleshoes,
Okay purple shoes we shave our pubes, we ont shave our vaginas off. Men also shave their pubes and if youre going to bring up some obscure health issue that can come up from that then why not omit hair cutting too? This is what I’m talking about with the Pcism. Its not about being correct its about tossing out common sense to be tokenist sentitive. Its pathetic.


#176….and treehugger we have no equivalent of the burqa in the west. So we cant admit the existence of that same sort of misogyny in the west. Just like we cant find the equivalent of not being allowed to drive, vote and not being flogged after were raped by our government. Thats just stupid! Were more progressed, we dont have what they do there like they do and to deny that is insensitive to those women that have to live that way.

Comment #236: Bean Slap  on  03/16  at  08:02 AM

Okay, this will be my last comment as Lisa Love. I predict this because Amanda will know who I am and likely ban me after I reveal the web address to my blog: http://tylerhealey.blogspot.com/ .

Amanda, I apologize for the mean things I have said to you in the past and hope we can start anew. I think you’re an outstanding writer, which is why I keep coming back here.

Also, since September Carrino may have read this comments section, I just wanted to say: September, there’s nothing wrong with you or your career. You’re an awesome model, a great person, and I’m a big fan.

Comment #237: Lisa Love  on  03/16  at  10:03 AM

The claim that women are somehow liberated or free from male scrutiny or assessed favorably because they wear a covering is utter. horseshit.  If a man considers himself entitled to dismiss a woman as a harlot because of what she wears (and let’s be clear that we’re not talking about hijab v. revealing Western dress, but hijab v. the full range of Western dress, including conservative styles), then he accords no respect to any woman.
Comment #232: rain on 03/16 at 12:50 AM

I didn’t say they are liberated or free from male scrutiny if they wear unrevealing clothing.  Just that in some situations it’s safer and makes it more likely they will be heard.

You snipped the part where I said not every feminist communication is all-purpose.  Everything from a whisper to a scream has a purpose.  I am not going to don hijab to speak but if some woman wants to, I will guess that her lived experience might be informing her choice better than your apparent assumption that men who don’t listen to “immodest’ women now will never be able to change.

You have to teach the person where s/he is.  Not where you wish s/he was.

Comment #238: oldfeminist  on  03/16  at  01:09 PM

I didn’t say they are liberated or free from male scrutiny if they wear unrevealing clothing.  Just that in some situations it’s safer and makes it more likely they will be heard.

Right back at ya, then.  Your post at 196 pulls a quote from my post at 192, but the response does not address what I was talking about at 192.  My post at 232 was to expand on the point of the original quote you responded to.  If you want to go off on a tangent, it’s probably best not not make it look like you’re responding to my point.  My apparent assumption?  Uh, ya.

Comment #239: rain  on  03/16  at  03:19 PM

I stand by my points regardless of what you think I was responding to.

Comment #240: oldfeminist  on  03/16  at  06:03 PM

treefinger:  “any people would rather be judged for the individuality of their thoughts and actions than what they look like.”

rain:  ““Because the burqa identifies you as a woman” is key to why women wearing the burqa are *not* judged for the individuality of their thoughts and actions, but rather by what they look like.  Because what they look like is women.”

oldfeminist:  “Taking them out of the burqa won’t make them any less women.  They simply won’t be judged on what kind of woman they are other than one who wears a burqa so can’t be dismissed as a harlot.”

My point here is that there are men who will judge a woman on what she wears, but will listen to some women if they wear the “right thing.”

You seem to think that, if a man judges a woman for what she wears, he won’t listen to her, period.  Did you not mean that?  If so, I think you’re wrong.

If not, then why is it not okay for a woman to judge her audience as one that might listen to her if she dresses modestly?

Comment #241: oldfeminist  on  03/16  at  06:39 PM

That’s so off the mark I don’t even know where to begin.

Comment #242: rain  on  03/16  at  07:33 PM

That’s so off the mark I don’t even know where to begin.
Comment #242: rain on 03/16 at 06:33 PM

Just try.  You keep saying I misrepresented you, but you’re not explaining how.  I’m not pro-burqa or pro-hijab.  I am pro-letting women decide for themselves how to present themselves to those they’re trying to convince.

Comment #243: oldfeminist  on  03/16  at  09:58 PM

Just try.

I already did.  Twice.  This is either me not able to articulate my point or you not understanding it.  If the former, well, I’m sure this topic will come around again somewhere and maybe by then I’ll have figured out a better way of explaining it.  If the latter, shrug.  I have no control over how anyone interprets or misrepresents what I say.  Either way, I’m good leaving this here.

Comment #244: rain  on  03/16  at  10:47 PM

I think another example of PC feminism is that on for example pandagon and feministing you find nothing about the womens rights protesters and how they were swarmed by a larger group of men that began sexually assaulting them.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jA0lTCLBfPISCkbcDhbjgma1OOJQ?docId=e75dbfdfaf294cbd9ee5ebd557c9887e

Comment #245: Bean Slap  on  03/17  at  02:37 AM

#214 oldfeminist,
The difference with the business suit example is men would be expected to dress professionally as well. No one expects a man to wear a burqa. Professional wear for women and men is nearly the same.

Comment #246: Bean Slap  on  03/17  at  02:40 AM

Whoops meant 241

Comment #247: Bean Slap  on  03/17  at  02:43 AM

Professional wear for women and men is nearly the same.

Wait, what?? Where?

Comment #248: slingshot  on  03/17  at  02:47 AM

I’m on the east coast of the USA.  I’ve no idea where Bean Slap is.  But…
It is perfectly acceptable for me to wear a suit jacket, tailered shirt, tailored slacks and flat dress shoes to a meeting, basically the same thing a man wears except the tailoring is different and the shoes don’t have laces as some men’s dress shoes do.  Most of my meeting slacks are men’s slacks as even dressier men’s clothing has functional pockets.  A couple of my nicer shirts for suits are from Men’s Warehouse cut down to be tailored for me.
I also wear cargos with sweaters or polos as casual office wear, like most of my male collegues.  Or khakies with button down shirts.  Many of my female coworkers tend to chose to wear heels (sometimes for height as we’ve discussed here before or other specific reasons; some because they have no dress, or casually dressy, shoes that aren’t heels).  Others prefer something frillier than the polos and button down shirts.  I’ve got no problem with that.
Other than neat, reasonably modest (for both genders) and clean, our dress code is pretty lax.  I work for an MIC company and interact with government customers (DOD and other) and private customers as well as the general public and subcontractors.

Comment #249: helen w. h.  on  03/17  at  09:30 AM

Most of my meeting slacks are men’s slacks as even dressier men’s clothing has functional pockets. 

A couple of my nicer shirts for suits are from Men’s Warehouse cut down to be tailored for me.

This would not work for most American women, with defined hips and busts.

Comment #250: Hector B.  on  03/17  at  12:36 PM

#214 oldfeminist,
The difference with the business suit example is men would be expected to dress professionally as well. No one expects a man to wear a burqa. Professional wear for women and men is nearly the same.

Comment #246: Bean Slap on 03/17 at 01:40 AM

In the US, in business you are mostly correct.

Outside the US, inside the US in some cultural groups, you are not necessarily correct.

Again, my point is that we should not confuse where we want non-feminists to be with where they are.  I’m not saying you personally have to dress any particular way to argue as a feminist, but if someone else decides not to follow your lead, it’s not because they’re idiots.

Comment #251: oldfeminist  on  03/17  at  02:02 PM

When my mother was a Juvenile Probation Officer in the 90s, she had judges tell her to “Wear a skirt next time” when she was in court. (She doesn’t like skirts, and would wear a pant suit). I’ve had jobs where stockings were required even if we were wearing pants (I never lasted long in those). I’ve had jobs where I would try to wear a blouse that fits my boobs, making it too large everywhere else, and been told buy supervisors that my shirt was too “swishy” and would distract clients. My friend who is a victims advocate has had judges tell women she works with to wear a skirt, so she ALWAYS wears one to court.

Asking my male friends in business has not resulted in ANY stories where people were telling them there clothing was inappropriate despite wearing what should be fine. The worst thing I hear is “I get too hot when I go outside” or “My shoes aren’t very comfortable”. I never hear about men having to custom tailor their clothes like many woman have to, either.

I am luckily not in business and can wear khakies and a shirt to work. Thank god, because I think the only suit jacket that would fit me was if it was custom made, and same with a button up blouse. Pretty much anything that buttons doesn’t work for me. And I would rather wear a tie than stockings or a skirt (I hate skirts, especially business suit skirts which I can’t walk properly in).

Comment #252: slingshot  on  03/18  at  02:42 AM

Hector B,
I am 5’ 6”, wear a 34 or 36 DD (depending on cut) and have a definate waist/ hip differential, so not true that this option is not available to most women due to their shape/size.  It does, however, require tailoring, especially for the shirts, so not available to many women because it is expensive and not always readily available to them.  (Neglecting the do it yourself option, which frankly is asking much too much, IMO, when talking about fitting clothing to yourself rather than to others).
Slingshot,
With you 100% on the last paragraph.  How would they know if you were wearing hose with pants, though?  Knee highs and thigh highs would look pretty much the same on your feet and ankles.  I’d think a pants check would be asking for a harrassment suit.

Comment #253: helen w. h.  on  03/18  at  08:27 AM

I work in a formal setting and would definitely say the women in my office look great, but their wardrobe is extremely varied, whereas, with guys, all we have to do is wear a suit. There’s not much variation, which means we don’t have to think much at all about the outfit we’re going to wear.
Comment #255: Tyler on 03/18 at 09:53 AM

About 100 years ago when Home Ec and Shop were sex-segregated, we had a Home Ec teacher who would respond to compliments on what she wore by wearing it again the next day.  Some girls decided to see if they could get her to wear it all week.  It was the *scandal* I tell you!

Looking back, I am sure many of the male teachers wore the same suit day after day.  No one cares so long as they follow the form and aren’t dirty.  Their bodies aren’t sexualized.

It’s annoying when MRA types start bitching about how women wear provocative clothing to work and then don’t like being looked at sexually, saying “men don’t dress like Fabio at work for a reason.”  These guys have no clue what makes a man physically attractive, so they ignore the sexual signalling involved in putting a man in a suit.  Suits are built to emphasize the male shape—padding at the shoulders, drape to cover stomach bulges and make the torso more of a straight “V” shape to the waist/hip, dark colors minimize and then the colorful shirt and tie to bring attention to the chest.  Contrasting color cuffs peeking out from the suit, and the shiny gold or silver glittery watch, accentuate the hands. 

Not to mention what the tie represents.

Comment #254: oldfeminist  on  03/18  at  11:53 AM

oldfeminist, I know it was incidental to the thread, but just wanted to say thanks for that. I was pretty clueless about that “signaling” myself.

Comment #255: GSDavis  on  03/18  at  05:10 PM
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