Stop playing Objectivist He-Man, stop worshipping a fuckwit radio host and get to work building a political movement that can’t get its ass beaten by an Indonesian-born black radical communist.

Jessie: The Awesoming.

Wait, am I supposed to assume that Reynold, Malkin and their ilk fancy themselves as artistic giants responsible for making the earth turn on its axis? If the “brain” drain comes, I predict Dr. Helen will still be in Podunk.

Stop playing Objectivist He-Man, stop worshipping a fuckwit radio host and get to work building a political movement that can’t get its ass beaten by an Indonesian-born black radical communist.

Dude, what a masterful sentence!

How can we miss them if they won’t go away?

It’s funny how all of these people assume they’re John Galt when it’s clear they’re a bunch of James Taggarts.

The Galtoids are just trying to get us to understand that they are so awesome we don’t deserve to have them live among us.  But since they do, it’s incumbent on us to show proper respect by exempting them from obligations aimed at merely ordinary people…like taxes. 

Oh, and we need to worship them too.  And exempt them from laws against polygamy.

We’re lucky they’ve even lowered themselves to share our oxygen…

Objectivism:
When a fucking 10 hour video game can completely and utterly refute your entire philosophy you might have a shitty philosophy

To even work in a hypothetical fashion, Galting would require essentially all of the right-wing high-earners to participate (remember, this is a hypothetical, so there are no liberals or progressives in any of the high-earning professions who could simply kick in a few more hours and bask simultaneously in the hedonistic glow of added wealth and moral glow of supporting their government’s progressive taxation). Because unless they all show the same unshakeable moral fiber, the few who defect are going to be raking in such enormously big bucks (because with the market emptied, the going wage for high-earning professionals will no doubt increase in line with the added supply of work waiting to be done) that they can just laugh at the notion that they have to fork over 39.6% of their nearly-free extra money to the feds.

Hmm. Maybe that’s the ticket: the people making the most noise about John Galt are actually hoping to convince their (marginally) stupider high-earning compatriots to take the dive, so that in a downturn there will be more work and money for them. That’s what a social darwinist would do, after all…

Reynolds, the government check collecting glibertarian.

Jesse! We need these people to go start their wingnut commune, oh let’s see, 20 years ago? Make that 30! Stop messing it up now by pointing out that we won’t miss their sorry asses for one hot second!

I think you should start writing posts about how much you’ll miss their profuse wingnuttery - once they’re gone, and how much you’ll appreciate the wisdom of their words - once they’ve stopped communicating with us. I mean, they want to leave us alone to our own devices? All praise the disco ball and let’s help them find that door!

Mnemosyne, I just read the synopisis of Atlas Shrugged at the link you gave.

Wow, what a piece of dreck!  Anybody who would swallow that crap and believe it bears any resemblance to reality has real issues.

The problems the world faces have nothing to do with some extremely limited pool of talent, and everything to do with the unbridled greed of the arrogant and the self-important.

Hank Rearden wouldn’t have spent 10-years developing some miracle metal alloy, he would have employed metallurgists and chemical engineers to do this for him (he naturally would be the holder of an MBA and would know absolutely nothing about the steel business).  They would have had to sign NDAs just to get jobs, guaranteeing that Rearden owned their work.  This would have had nothing at all to do with The Evil Government, this would have been just another typical Big Business move.  Rearden would have exploited his workers mercilessly, until either relocating the whole business to China, or selling it for a fraudulent amount before taking the cash, marrying a model, and retiring to multiple palatial estates all over the world, which he gets to and from in a fleet of private jets and limousines.

Our recent experience with the Greatest Minds On Wall Street is a great example of reality.  They are greedheads who take the money of other greedheads and use it to manipulate still other greedheads in order to “make” a profit.  In reality, they make nothing, add value to nothing, and accomplish nothing, except turning good companies into worthless crap, and then robbing the rest of us for a “bailout”.

If you are so convinced of your personal awesomeness, and that we proles can’t possibly go on without you, then please, do us all a favor and leave.  That would show us.  We’d really be sorry then.  I don’t know how we could ever cope with a loss like that…

(BTW, make sure you take fucking Limbaugh with you when you go.  Thanks!)

You know, if we keep being mean to them they’ll just go away and we will all be sorry!

Unfortunately, these wankers don’t seem to believe in the scientific method.  I’ve been hoping against hope that they will someday decide to empirically test this hypothesis.

One of the things these folks haven’t considered is how much of their work really is unproductive. For example, if one side of a deal doesn’t have a phalanx of $500/hr lawyers, then the other side of the deal may not need as many lawyers either. For most real-world business deals this could be a win all round.

All hail the Galtian Supermen: personally, I can’t wait until they drop out and go off and establish their of credit default swap and bond derivatives markets. By, that’ll show us!!

Robert, can you explain the video game reference to me?

Hank Rearden wouldn’t have spent 10-years developing some miracle metal alloy, he would have employed metallurgists and chemical engineers to do this for him (he naturally would be the holder of an MBA and would know absolutely nothing about the steel business).

Not to defend Atlas Shrugged or Rand, but you have to bear that the Ridiculously Omnicompetent Man (and rarely, Woman) was a common trope that had a long history, mostly in science fiction: E.E. Smith’s Seaton and DuQuesne from the Skylark stories make Rand’s characters look like the slowest members of the special-ed class.

Note also that the trope hasn’t left us: Tony Stark building a revolutionary new power source out of scrap metal in a cave is in the same vein.

The problem isn’t the unrealistic competence of the characters.

Wow, I just read the Cliff Notes version that Mnemosyne posted. I’m glad someone read the whole book so I didn’t have to. The four page synopsis were bad enough, but I pushed on so I’d know what the Galt-threateners are talking about. That’s ten minutes of my life I’ll never get back.

felagund, Robert is talking about BioShock. The setting is an underwater city where a Randian superman brought a bunch of other Randian supermen to live apart from humanity’s scrabbling hordes. By the time your character arrives there after a plane crash, nearly everyone in the city is either dead in the various revolts or an insane mutant.

So, wait, Galt starts the economic depression of the United States because he thinks his company sucks and he doesn’t get enough respect?  What a douche.

Someone needs to make a t-shirt that says “YOU ARE NOT JOHN GALT.”

“IF YOU’RE JOHN GALT, SHOULDN’T YOU BE PISSING OFF BACK TO YOUR GULCH?”

Note also that the trope hasn’t left us: Tony Stark building a revolutionary new power source out of scrap metal in a cave is in the same vein.

The difference being that no-one proposes to run defense policy based on inventing Iron Man suits…

a common trope that had a long history, mostly in science fiction

See also: MacGuyver

Let’s build a B-Ark for the GoGalters.

Not to defend Atlas Shrugged or Rand, but you have to bear that the Ridiculously Omnicompetent Man (and rarely, Woman) was a common trope that had a long history, mostly in science fiction: E.E. Smith’s Seaton and DuQuesne from the Skylark stories make Rand’s characters look like the slowest members of the special-ed class.
Note also that the trope hasn’t left us: Tony Stark building a revolutionary new power source out of scrap metal in a cave is in the same vein.
The problem isn’t the unrealistic competence of the characters.

Agree. But it’s as though there were a club of people out there telling us we don’t need government healthcare, just government protection from Kryptonite . . .

(Not that any size would have been sufficient, given the realities of “liberated” Iraq.)

Not necessarily true.  The calculation of about 500,000 pairs of boots on the ground was right about on the money.

The US had one chance of getting the invasion right, and that was right at the start.  If there had been sufficient people to have both a combat force and an occupation force (so as to maintain law and order and protect/maintain critical infrastructure while kicking ass and taking names), they might have been able to pull it off.  Sure, the long-term stability of the country would be questionable (given the various concerns of the Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites), but the short term would have been a hell of a lot less bloody.  It was the inability to control the country that led directly to Abu Ghraib and the downhill from there.

There’s a point I made back in 2003: on December 8, 1941, the US officially declared war on Japan.  In January, 1942, the first meetings on how the US would occupy, manage, pacify and rebuild postwar Japan started.  They spent over three years grabbing anyone who knew anything about the country to ask them questions, figured out who in the Japanese hierarchy would likely be useful and who would have to go (one way or the other), what institutions were necessary to keep the country running, which would have to be purged, so on and so forth.  MacArthur, the gloryhound that he was, took most of the credit, but the reality was that the vast majority of the gruntwork needed for the occupation had been done, was updated until needed, and then implemented.

Compare that to the clusterfuck that was the American invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Wow, when I was in high school in the 1970s the Ayn Rand freaks were a half-step above the glue sniffers on the social hierarchy.

The glue sniffers probably had better hygiene.

Seriously I have always considered Rand to be poorly written tripe and I cannot understand the wingnut fascination with really crappy fiction.

Hmm. Maybe that’s the ticket: the people making the most noise about John Galt are actually hoping to convince their (marginally) stupider high-earning compatriots to take the dive, so that in a downturn there will be more work and money for them. That’s what a social darwinist would do, after all…

Notice how Rush Limbaugh keeps telling his listeners to do this but hasn’t started refusing his $35 million salary to take $249,999 a year instead?

Yep.  They’re hoping to hang on to everything they have and let the suckers who listen to them take the hit.

These Randroids have impeccable timing.  Could they have possibly picked a worse time to ramp up the volume on their “I am John Galt” screeching?  The sense of a large number of Americans right now is that they’ve been robbed blind for eight years.  And now, the prime suspects in that robbery: mega-rich investors, mega-rich corporate tools, and mega-rich media blowhards, are taking it upon themselves to moan long and loud about the 3% tax hike that’s punishing them for their genius work, which they are specially qualified for because they’re just smarter and better than the common type.  Said work being destroying the fucking economy.

As far as I’m concerned, give them a bullhorn and let them rant and cry.

They spent over three years grabbing anyone who knew anything about the country to ask them questions, figured out who in the Japanese hierarchy would likely be useful and who would have to go (one way or the other), what institutions were necessary to keep the country running, which would have to be purged, so on and so forth.  MacArthur, the gloryhound that he was, took most of the credit, but the reality was that the vast majority of the gruntwork needed for the occupation had been done, was updated until needed, and then implemented.

While the US occupation in Japan was far better than what we have in Iraq, it was far similar to Iraq in some critical ways than your comment above would indicate. 

The fact was that the US was played for a fool by many in the Japanese right after the war, especially after MacArthur turned back from the initial democratization and serious purging of Japanese imperial militarists who were critical parts of the Japanese governmental bureaucracy due to Cold War considerations. 

Several critical results of the failure to completely purge Japanese governmental institutions of such imperial militarists(One former colonialist who was indicted for Class A War Crimes became Japan’s Prime Minister in the late 1950’s) are Japan’s continuing problem with discussing/confronting its colonialist/wartime legacy, the fact Japan with one notable exception in the early ‘90s became a defacto one-party state dominated by a traditionalist right-leaning party(LDP), the lack of accountability Japan’s citizens have over their government and its close corporate allies (Minamata disease aka industrial mercury poisoning), and the fact that Japanese colonialist apologia is still present among some of the most prominent members of Japan’s political and social elite (i.e. Current Mayor of Tokyo Shintaro Ishihara, Prime Minister Taro Aso, etc). 

The last factor has been one reason why many victims of Japan’s colonialism have been dubious of Japan’s sincerity in making amends for its heinous past….especially when some of their most prominent politicians keep placing their foot in their mouths regarding this very issue over the years…including the current Prime Minister Taro Aso.

Insomnia + Illustrator = “You are not John Galt” t-shirt shop.

Insomnia + Illustrator = “You are not John Galt” t-shirt shop.

This is so so wrong...

Really? Cuz the undies are my favorite.

KeithM: “They spent over three years grabbing anyone who knew anything about the country to ask them questions, figured out who in the Japanese hierarchy would likely be useful and who would have to go “

All of that knowledge and we still dropped the Bomb over the Emporer.  Calling Gar Alperovirz; cause that knowledge didn’t seem to help at the end of the war.  Not arguing with you…

This Galt thing is pretty annoying because there is no part of the world that is not subject to state control; there is sequester yourself from some degree of government (even it is informal where centralized national governments do not exist).  Withdrawing your “talents” and your stuff does not allow a withdrawl from the world.

As far as I’m concerned, give them a bullhorn and let them rant and cry.

Jrod on 03/08 at 12:50 AM

“Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.”

“Seriously I have always considered Rand to be poorly written tripe and I cannot understand the wingnut fascination with really crappy fiction.”

It’s because they don’t do any thinking. Greenspan and others proclaimed Atlas Shrugged to be their role model on the economy hence why they wanted to deregulate the markets since according to them the people involved wouldn’t get greedy or do braindead things that would damage the market.

When people who advocate belief in a diety to keep people in line then proclaim there shouldn’t be any man made rules preventing bad behavior since people won’t do foolish things you know you are in a world of trouble.

Limbaugh btw supports Ayn Rand as does the Cato Institute, Ronald Reagan praised her btw.

moan long and loud about the 3% tax hike that’s punishing them for their genius work, which they are specially qualified for because they’re just smarter and better than the common type.  Said work being destroying the fucking economy.

LOOK! OVER THERE!  THAT GUY IN A PRIUS IS DRINKING A LATTE!

ELITIST!  ELITIST!  OUT OF TOUCH WITH REAL AMERICANS!

Perhaps you liberals are right about this.  Wealthy people who represent entrepreneurs, investors, business owners, and venture capitalists should stop whining and accept having their riches looted by those who were loathe to earn it themselves.

It’s just the Natural (socialist) Order of Things. Resistance to this is futile, and, in fact, may become rather dangerous for the loudest voices who’ve protested these new, onerous taxes.  I fear boxcars and “final solution” camps may be in the offing.

-A

“Wealthy people who represent entrepreneurs, investors, business owners, and venture capitalists “

Hate to tell you this but the wealthy people who actually are those things admit they should pay far more and being taxed more encourages them to work more to get more money and create more wealth for everybody.

They also support the inheritance tax since it encourages their children not to be lazy and expect to inherit their wealth instead their children learn the business or another trade.

All of that knowledge and we still dropped the Bomb over the Emporer.

My point was that the US government and most of its people were quite ignorant of Japan and Japanese society in that period.  Some of the effects of such ignorance is still having an impact on Japanese society and East Asian geopolitics/international relations. 

What’s more sad is that some of the few Americans with Japan expertise had ties with the pre-war Japanese social and political elite which was a factor in eventually impeding the purging of pre-war imperial militarists from the Japanese governmental bureaucracies along with providing some imperial family members, including Emperor Hirohito himself immunity from being scrutinized for his role in Japan’s colonialist legacy and war crimes committed by the armed forces he supposedly headed as Head of State.  The fears of Japan’s collapse if the monarchy was Hirohito was forced out/tried was not nearly as certain as they or much US postwar historiography on this topic would have one believe….especially when we subsequently found that some members of the imperial family had been discussing Hirohito’s abdication as a possibility right after Japan’s defeat.

“Wealthy people who represent entrepreneurs, investors, business owners, and venture capitalists should stop whining and accept having their riches looted by those who were loathe to earn it themselves.”

Hah!  It’s more like: “Wage slaves, who represent the majority of Americans, should stop whining and accept that their hard work and meager earnings will looted by those who were loathe to earn it themselves: entrepreneurs, investors, business owners, venture capitalists, miscellaneous holders of MBAs and other bogus ‘business’ degrees, winners of the cosmic lottery, and people who chose their parents well and profited handsomely through no action of their own.  These parasites upon society will seize control of everything in sight, through any means, legal or not, claiming it as their birthright, and then live like royalty on the backs of other people’s labor, until they die and leave their winnings to the next generation of economic parasites, who will repeat their predecessor’s actions.”

This is why a proper symbol of Capitalism as practiced in the US would be an image of The Invisible Hand of the Marketplace…with a prominent and properly erect middle finger…representing the overclass’s attitude toward those who are really behind their “success”...

There were problems in understanding as well right before the bomb was dropped:

The intial response of the Japanese Government to the (Potsdam)Declaration was mokusatsu, which has the literal meaning “to kill with silence.” Allied translators interpreted this to signify a contemptuous rejection, but there is controversy over whether this correctly captured the nuances of the word. An interesting discussion of this issue can be found at Translator’s Cafe, where the following plausible translations are offered by Ellen Kapusniak:

  take no notice of
  pass (over) ((a matter)) in [with] silence
  refuse [do not deign] even to comment ((on..))
  ignore (by keeping silence)

This suggest that the translation of mokusatsu as “contemptuously reject” is somewhat too strong. Boyd Lafayette De Mente offers some cultural context:

  One of the most common and important time factors in Japanese negotiations or discussions about serious matters was - and still is - the use of time gaps or breaks. Their people involved simply stop talking. They may just sit and remain silent (often with their eyes closed), get up and leave the room for short periods, or hold low-voiced side conversations with their colleagues.

  Japanese negotiators and others develop varying degrees of skill in using these time gaps to their own advantage - so much so that there is a special term used in reference to the process: mokusatsu (mohkuu-sahtsuu), which means “killing with silence”.

  Mokusatsu refers to the idea of “killing” the other party’s case or proposition by letting it die in the vacuum of silence.

Following the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Emperor persuaded his government to surrender, and the Japanese asked for a armistice based on the terms of the Potsdam Declaration plus a guarantee that the Emperor would remain the formal head of state. The Allies gave a somewhat ambiguous response that the Japanese nonetheless felt compelled to accept. The speech by the Emperor to his people announcing the end of the war avoided the use of the word “surrender” and simply stated that Japan was accepting the terms of the Potsdam Declaration. Since the Allies had dropped leaflets with the full text of the Declaration on Japanese cities, most of the Japanese people would have understood the implications of what the Emperor was saying.

One theory is that the Japanese used the word as the equivalent of “No comment”, FWIW.

The reconstruction of (West) Germany was handled much better than that of Japan in that respect. Germany has lived up to faced its past because of the extremely thorough de-Nazification, Japan not so much.

They didn’t want the Emperor to merely remain on the throne, btw, they also wanted no occupation and be allowed to carry out de-mobilization and reconstruction policies on their own. You can see why the Allies didn’t think this was acceptable.

“I fear boxcars and “final solution” camps may be in the offing.”

...okay.  So you really are as stupid as Jonah Goldberg, who can’t tell the difference between progressives, conservatives, communists, and fascists either.

A little hint:  It was the fascists who put people in cattle cars to be shipped to death camps for The Final Solution.  These would be the same fascists who had an unnaturally good relationship with their “wealthy entrepreneurs, investors, business owners, and venture capitalists” who happily sold them the airplanes, guns, tanks, ships and submarines, the cattle cars and the railroad engines, and most importantly, the Zyklon B that would be used to carry out The Final Solution.  All for a piece of the action.

In the famous words of that famous guy: “Those who are ignorant of history are wingnuts and McCain voters”...

Interesting how the rich whine that society will die off if they go on strike, but they never actually do so.  When those who are the REAL creators of wealth - the workers - get het up, the wealthy complain that they need laws to stop them because everything will come to a halt if they do.

I don’t see any maneuvering by the lower classes to keep the wealthy from organizing or going on strike, but there is a hell of a lot of that by the upper classes to keep the lower classes from organizing.  Gee, must be because the “services” of the wealthy are so important?

Really? Cuz the undies are my favorite.

Rosanne, if I’m face to, uh, face with an occupied pair of thongs, the last thing I want is to be reminded of is Objectivism and the Cult of Rand.  Hell, it could always be taken as pro-Objectivist - “Unless you ARE John Galt, you don’t get into these”.

I mean, even as roleplay, it doesn’t work. 

Who the hell wants to break up a hot and heavy petting session with a two and a half hour diatribe about how us screwing each other is a morally valid act showing mankind’s intrinsic freedom in the face of a collectivist violation of individual rights based on the mistaken, anti-reason assumption that the pursuit of happiness is not the most noble value in an objectiive existence and - WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU GOING?  BABY, AT LEAST LEAVE A PHONE NUMBER?!?!

and so we see the real reason dana frequents this blog. guess we can fully give up on ever having an intelligent conversation with him, since he’s only here to get fodder for his own blog. lazy motherfucker. ;p

shorter Atanarjuat: why can’t you liberals stop being so lazy and be born into money like paris hilton! she works harder than you! dude, until you can stop coming in here pretending to be stupid, no one give a shit what you have to say.

Wealthy people who represent entrepreneurs, investors, business owners, and venture capitalists

“But when Atlas had received three apples from the Hesperides, he came to Hercules, and not wishing to support the sphere he said that he would himself carry the apples to Eurystheus, and bade Hercules hold up the sky in his stead. Hercules promised to do so, but…begged Atlas to hold up the sky till he shouldput a pad on his head. When Atlas heard that, he laid the apples down on the ground and took the sphere from Hercules. And so Hercules picked up the apples and departed.”

Wealthy people aren’t Atlas. They’re Hercules.

also, Atanarjuat, you are pretty disgusting, comparing taxes to being gassed in a concentration camp. anti-semitic too, are just that fucking childish and stupid?

are just that fucking childish and stupid?

He’s not acting any different than anyone else in the Republican party. He simply reflects the mainstream of the Republican mindset and cuts-and-pastes their talking about here.

Doesn’t Norquist and his copypasta troll followers realize that once you compare something to the Holocaust that isn’t, well, isn’t genocidal you lose all credibility?

Why do wingnuts always include entrepreneurs in their list of Galtian supermen who will be driven to relocate to a private island in the Bahamas if we raise their taxes by a couple percentage points?  While the business as a whole might be worth $250,000 or more, I don’t think the owner of the pizza shop on the corner, or person running the hair salon down the street, is taking that amount home personally.  Certainly not in the early, fragile years of the business.

Hell, there are some liberal policies that could be a huge help to entrepreneurs.  Take universal health care - wouldn’t people be more willing to give a try at starting their own business if they knew they weren’t risking their own or their family’s health by doing so?  And wouldn’t people be more willing to work for such businesses if health benefits were no longer an issue?

Or do pizza-shop owners, landscapers, barbers, mechanics, etc. not count as entrepreneurs by wingnut standards?

Obviously, the essence of noblisse oblige among the upper classes to help those less fortunate than themselves, however patronizing the attitudes may be, has passed over their heads….

One theory is that the Japanese used the word as the equivalent of “No comment”, FWIW.

That is a possibility…along with the fact the Emperor’s ministers were still dominated by those who wanted to continue the war for the sake of national honor and to hopefully cause enough US/Allies casualties to gain more leverage and more favorable/honorable exit in negotiations…..along with the great fear of being disgraced by surrendering…..a factor in the horrific treatment given to captured/surrendered Allied POWs. 

Even after Japan was subjected to 2 atomic bombings, the Emperor’s ministers ended up being hopelessly deadlocked between those who wanted to continue fighting and those who wanted to accept the Potsdam terms.  Only after the Emperor finally sided with those of the latter faction were they able to start the process of surrendering. 

Even then, there were many die-hard imperial militarist fanatics within Japan’s military and government who attempted to impede this process….including a dramatic failed coup by some to prevent the broadcast of Hirohito’s message on August 15th, 1945.

Wealthy people who represent entrepreneurs, investors, business owners, and venture capitalists…

You mean lawyers?  You think we just want the lawyers to leave?  First thing, kill off all the lawyers?

It fits a bit, since you seem to think paying taxes is akin to theft, but seriously…grow a brain.

Middle class people represent police officers, firefighters, nurses, construction workers, linemen, mechanics, and teachers.

Something tells me society would mess them a hell of a lot more than they would miss Wall St. middle managers.

The problem with Mr Taylor’s thesis is that he takes it too literally.  In Atlas Shrugged, John Galt calls for what is essentially a strike of the best minds, a complete withdrawal by them from the economy, and by taking it too literally, our host has set that up as the strawman to be attacked.

But “Galting” has become more of a shorthand for becoming more determined to legally reduce your tax burden than a literal following of Ayn Rand’s books, books which are probably more cited than read.  It could be argued—and I do—that for those just above the 39.6% threshold, the income rearrangement necessary to avoid the increased taxes might be more costly than the amount saved; in a strictly dollars-and-cents calculation, it might not make sense.  (Pun intended.) 

But there is also the emotional part, the emotional consideration of people who think that increasing their taxes, because they have played by the rules and worked hard and been successful, is just plain unfair, and who will want to resist. There will be those who don’t like President Obama’s moves toward greater government control of everything and greater federal involvement in the economy and in people’s lives who will see this as a method of resistance. 

Thing is, tax avoidance (by which I mean the completely legal structuring of your income and assets to minimize your tax burden) has always occurred, and we have plenty of examples of the liberals who said that President Bush’s lower tax rates were the wrong thing to do taking full advantage of tax avoidance mechanisms themselves.  John Edwards use of an S Corporation to save himself $591,000 in taxes in 1995 is an obvious example, and while perhaps Tom Daschle didn’t mean to cross the line between tax avoidance and tax evasion, he was right there, using accountants, to try to minimize his tax burden, after having led the fight against the Bush tax cuts when he was in the Senate.

Whether you believe it here, President Obama and his staff apparently believe that tax changes lead to economic behavioral changes: people take decisions based upon what they perceive to be in their economic better interests.  That’s why you see the Administration as having gone for several tax changes designed to encourage specific economic activity, such as buying a house.  Why, then, would you be surprised that some people might take economic steps that they can to avoid the increased taxes on the most productive?

Chibi, the only anti-semitism we’ve witnessed recently is in the radical left’s insistence that Israel not defend itself from murderous Islamic militants who are fond of shooting rockets against Jewish non-combatants.

But that’s a digression from the main point, which is simply this:

America has a capitalist economy, and those with wealth and power keep the gears turning in this great nation.

While it may be fun to fantasize a Robin Hood Obama robbing from the filthy rich and giving to the deserving poor—thereby lessening the stratification of society—I suspect that the outcome will be more akin to a voracious vampire (liberal government) draining the life blood of the nation (entrepreneurs and investors), leaving behind a withered husk that’s drained of all vitality.

I don’t know about you, but I’m not keen on having this country transform into another Somalia for the sake of class envy.

-A

Dana, you’re really hung up on this tax restructuring thing—something you bring up out of the blue when other, completely different and unrelated right-wing arguments are critiqued. I don’t know if this is your “thing” or not, but the truth is that everyone should organize their income to protect their business assets from personal liability and should make an effort to minimize their tax burdens in rational ways. But that has nothing to do with what these screeching, emotionally stunted people talking about “going Galt” are doing.

And, no, I don’t really think that the return to 90s-era taxation levels for a small segment of the population while giving everyone else a tax cut will really matter that much. I’m not particularly worried, and I’m on the cusp of looking at ways of increasing my income. Heck, I’d be happy if the competition got out of the way.

But just because tax avoidance happens to be “your thing” doesn’t mean you have to keep arguing against Jesse for arguing against something else which only you, at the moment, seem to be focused on.

Dr. Helen, TigerHawk, and Glenn Reynolds, in particular, don’t strike me as the sort of people who know much about accounting anyway nor are they particularly entrepeneurial or make their living doing anything other than being employees.

chibi wrote:

and so we see the real reason dana frequents this blog. guess we can fully give up on ever having an intelligent conversation with him, since he’s only here to get fodder for his own blog. lazy motherfucker. ;p

There certainly are times I use Pandagon articles as starting points for my own; Pandagon provides points from which to begin articles in disagreement.  But were we to take your statement in its larger meaning, then you’d have to criticize all of our hosts here, who frequent other sites—Alas! sites larger than mine!  :( —as instigation points for articles of their own. 

My site is set up to send out trackbacks and pings for articles linked, but Pandagon is not set up to publish them as trackbacks.  (It used to be, when this site was using WordPress.)  The hosts should see the trackbacks, though only if they choose to look.

America has a capitalist economy, and those with wealth and power keep the gears turning in this great nation.

Police officers, firefighters, mechanics, construction workers, linemen, teachers, etc., they’re the ones with “wealth and power”?

I’d like to see a society without them. It wouldn’t function. The middle class keeps the “gears turning”.

Ask a doctor how he would do without his nurses.

Dana, contrary to the claims of some people here, I don’t think you’re a particularly stupid person. In fact, I get the impression that you’re probably fairly embarrassed by the stupidity of your fellow Republican travelers. Despite this, you have an inexplicable need to stick with the Republican cause. Unfortunately, you find yourself criticizing people like Jesse for arguing against stupid Republican arguments by claiming that Jesse is making a mistake by criticizing the arguments they are making rather than the arguments that you wish they would make.

Instead, I think you would be better off confronting reality—that the unhinged right-wing reaction to Obama’s rather middle-of-the-road policies outs them as a group of irrational, crazy people. Most people welcome the opportunity to benefit from the stimulus and the tax cuts that will make up for their stagnant median incomes. Most others realize that they stand to gain from a growing economy with increasing incomes even if their marginal tax rates are slightly higher (and most people would have realized that marginal tax rates since 2001 or so were kept artificially low and prepared accordingly). Your fellow travelers are outing themselves as a gorup of irrational entitled pricks, and it’s a bit embarrassing for you to go to bat for them by trying to come up with the argument that you wish they were making. You’d probably also be better off advocating in favor of Obama’s policies instead of freaking out over them and trying to be an adovcate for the right-wing, which, honestly, hasn’t done
us a lick of good and has explicitly placed themselves against the interests of people like you and me.

exholt is right about MacArthur.  I’d add only one thing: he was predisposed to favour the richest and most authoritarian elements in the culture anyways. 

All one has to do is see how he facilitated the return to power in the Philippines of all of his ultra-wealthy pre-war buddies, most of whom had collaborated like mad with the Japanese.  Middle class, peasant and leftist elements were left out of postwar governance in favour of pre-war plutocrats and peribellum Japanese ass-lickers.  It goes a long way to explaining, at least in part, why a communist insurgency burst into such vigourous, intense life so soon after the war and why that has been a lingering sore ever since.

“I don’t know about you, but I’m not keen on having this country transform into another Somalia for the sake of class envy.”

...oh really?  Well, I can truly say I agree with you on this 100%.  Except I know that you know it’s a pile of bullshit.

The problem is that it isn’t the centrists like Obama who are ruining America, it’s you and your Reichwing friends who are taking this country and sucking it dry by concentrating wealth in the hands of the top 1%.  And even that isn’t good enough for you.  You take every decent job that can be done (no matter how poorly) somewhere else, and offshore it, in a race to drag wages in the US down to the level of those other countries as quickly as possible.

So you end up with a society consisting of a very thin crust of ungodly wealth, over a core of mass poverty, with a wrecked economy too…just like every other Third World Nation on earth.

So you decry libruls for “turning America into another Somalia”, but you know that’s bullshit.  You unthinkingly support those on the right who are actually wrecking America, so you must really like it and want it to happen.

You voted for it and they’re giving it to you.  I only wish you and yours were the only passengers in this handcart to hell…

Left Wing Fox asked:

How is that ANY different at all than what every single one of these guys wasn’t doing before?

It’s a difference in attitude, LWF, and a difference in perception.  Perception is reality, and attitude drives decisions.

Who knows, perhaps no one will be “successful” in Galting; we can’t know the future.  But as you add a bunch of people, some of whom were very receptive to our new president, to the list of people who believe that he has hurt them personally, he loses political capital and gains political enemies.

Dana, these are the people who hated Obama and the Democrats from day 1. What you’re engaging in is a bunch of concern trolling, claiming deep consequence if the body politic does not pay sufficient respect to the right-wing victimization industrial complex.

Seriously, if the worst Obama’s rather centrist policies is hurt the precious sensitivies of emotionally stunted libertarians, right-wing apologists like TigerHawk, and talkingpoints pro-torture monkeys like Instapundit, I suspect that they’re basically outing themselves as a group of people who are too mentally and politically weak to do Obama and the country any damage. This is one of those “the dog barks, but the caravan moves on” sort of situations.

Willy Loman thought “attention must be paid!” too. What did he have to back it up?

Seriously, if the worst Obama’s rather centrist policies is hurt the precious sensitivies of emotionally stunted libertarians, right-wing apologists like TigerHawk, and talkingpoints pro-torture monkeys like Instapundit,

You forgot the $50,000 millionaire useful idiots who parrot glibertarian soundbites.

Mr Ess wrote:

The problem is that it isn’t the centrists like Obama who are ruining America, it’s you and your Reichwing friends who are taking this country and sucking it dry by concentrating wealth in the hands of the top 1%.  And even that isn’t good enough for you.  You take every decent job that can be done (no matter how poorly) somewhere else, and offshore it, in a race to drag wages in the US down to the level of those other countries as quickly as possible.

Mr Ess, if manufacturing jobs have left the United States, it is because the American people have chosen to buy goods manufactured in the Philippines rather than in the United States.  Why?  Because goods manufactured abroad almost always cost less than those manufactured here.  It’s like all of those people who combitch about WalMart driving out local retailers, but shop at WalMart themselves.

We thought that the younger Miss Pico had seen some dirt in the bottom of her glass at dinner last night, until she told us at what she looked: it was a message that said the glass was made in Russia, and she was surprised, because she thought everything was made in China!

Tyro, while I don’t agree with everything that other conservatives say—and who could agree with everything anyone else says?—you may rest assured that what I write is exactly what I believe and what I mean.

I believe that the greater the government intervention in our economy, the less freedom we have.  I do not believe that it is the place of the government to favor the poor or the middle class or the wealthy; the government should favor no one at all.  Rather, the government should do as much as possible to get out of the way of people’s freedom and rights.  If that means the wealthy happen to get wealthier, well, so be it. 

If I had my way, we would repeal the sixteenth amendment, and everyone would owe exactly the same tax.  That’ll never happen, of course, so the best for which I can ever hope is a single percentage rate income tax structure: large personal exemptions to get people past some very basic living expenses, and a single percentage tax rate on income, regardless of from what source, on everything over that.  I would retain the deduction for charity, and that’s it, I’d exclude everything else, including that most sacred of cows, the home mortgage interest deduction.

Dana is always an intriguing case because, as a Catholic, it’s entire shtick with the Republican party is, “Ever since I became outraged about abortion, I have found small increases in taxes on the rich to be abhorrent.”

The flip side of this is the person who becomes wealthy, finds that his interests are better served by the Republican party’s tax policies, and then suddenly discovers that he hates the ACLU and thinks that global warming is a hoax.

Tyro wrote:

Dana, these are the people who hated Obama and the Democrats from day 1. What you’re engaging in is a bunch of concern trolling, claiming deep consequence if the body politic does not pay sufficient respect to the right-wing victimization industrial complex.

That’s what we said about the people who hated President Bush, and what you (plural) said about the people who hated the Clintons—both of them—eight years earlier.

If I had my way, we would repeal the sixteenth amendment, and everyone would owe exactly the same tax.

Ireland and the Baltic states did this, and they’re in an even worse crisis than we are. Try again.

Dana, so you’re basically saying that you’d take the rest of the economy down, screw over the middle class, destroy the safety net and let the public infrastructure rot because you have a strange quasi-religious obsession with how you personally believe, in your ideal world, taxes should work? Seriously, basing your policies ideas on cult-like beliefs about flat taxes without caring about how the rest of the country lives strikes me as somewhat sociopathic, or at least solipsisitic in the extreme.

I’m glad that you’re upfront about your fantasy beliefs, though and that they’re what is driving your advocacy of the destructive right-wing policies we’ve had to face over the past several years, though.

I believe that the greater the government intervention in our economy, the less freedom we have.

Yes, if there’s one thing I treasure, it’s freedom for people to fleece customers and freedom to bring unsafe products into the united states! As I said, this is a reflcetion of a quasi-religious belief, not a reflection of sober thinking on policy which is driving you. And such a fanaticism has led you to be an acolyte of the Republican party and implicated you in a group of abhorrent, aborrent immoral policies ideas as well as associating you with a group of fanatical extremist politicians and other ideologues. I can’t say that is a particularly healthy thing for you. You yourself seem vaguely embarrassed by the “go Galt” people you’ve signed up with and are trying to cover up for them by inventing arguments that you think they should have made.

I take it like this: Glenn Reynolds and TigerHawk were apologists for George W. Bush, Karl Rove, deregulation of the financial system, fanatical opposition to science, and the use of torture. Why the HELL should I give a damn what they think or whether the centrist policies of Obama don’t allow them to feel “respected”? I really don’t care whether Obama hurts their precious feelings. If they’re not a bunch of juvenile crybabies, I suspect they’ll be able to handle it like competent adults.

“Ask a doctor how he would do without his nurses.”

You would get an insane number saying they could do without. Of course if the nurses didn’t work the doctor would bitch and moan.

That’s what we said about the people who hated President Bush,

Turned out the people who thought Bush was a bad guy were right about that. Can’t say it does much for my opinion of your judgment on that one. Obama’s offering a set of rather staid policy changes. As is to be expected, the ignorant right wing fanatics are freaking out about it, just like we’d expect them to. But they’re the ones whose ideology was proven false and destructive, and that’s why policies are changing now.

1.  I hate the dumbass notion that anybody who criticizes Israel is antisemitic.

2.  I hate the dumbass notion amongst many Americans that there are two styles of governance in the world: American and Third World Batshit.  Sorry, boys, there are other first world countries who often do things waaaay better than Americans do.  (In the case of healthcare and crime we other first-worlders ALL do things way better than Americans do.)  Just because, say, one wants a more European or Canadian approach to a given policy doesn’t mean that you are going to be Mogadishu next week.  (Hell, it might minimize the chance of, say, Detroit turning into Mogadishu, but there you are.)

Yes, Atanarjuat, I’m talking to you.

Why, then, would you be surprised that some people might take economic steps that they can to avoid the increased taxes on the most productive?

Because “Going John Galt” to save $2,100 in taxes would involve $70,000 in lost income, just to take an example posed by a recent Slate article. I really don’t know of any simpler way we can explain it to you, Dana.

As for “punishment” by raising taxes on the successful, well, if the economy fails, the successful won’t be successful anymore. It’s as simple as that.

Oh, but I forgot. Truly successful people succeed in a vacuum.

1. seeker, Chibi raised the anti-semitic card first, so take it up with him/her.

2. You’re reducing the valid concerns of your ideological opponents into a binary strawman.  It’s not a choice between “American” and the “Third World.”  The point has been made repeatedly and manifestly clear: the moneyed class of this nation, who are responsible for creating jobs (such as those nurses, construction workers, and linemen that have been previously highlighted) and maintaining the prosperity of the U.S. are genuinely alarmed. Dramatically shifting the financial burden almost completely on their backs could have adverse effects on the economy since it would compel the rich to reduce their vital work and contribution to society.

-A

Hey Atanarjuat, was President Eisenhower a socialist?

Strangely, the partners at the office I’m in at my firm all voted for Obama.  Like many large firms, partners per profit total well over a million per year (I won’t give you a multiplier on that, because I have no intention of outing myself.)  I haven’t heard any of them crying over it, and ditto for the senior associates. 

I would like my country to have better roads, schools, infrastructure, veterans’ services, and healthcare.  And even when I make it to the highest tax bracket, I am totally cool with the government taxing me more, because I can afford it.  I don’t need the money I earn over $250k to by food for myself or my family, so 3-4 more cents per dollar going to our infrastructure does not burn me at all.

Funny how those who romanticize the 50’s don’t romanticize the marginal tax rates at that time . . .

lol at Atanarjuat. whatever guy, you godwinned the thread in the most childish way possible. you’re out of the game, mister, to the bench with you. you have nothing of value to say.

Funny how those who romanticize the 50’s don’t romanticize the marginal tax rates at that time . . .

Wingnuts want the economic policies of the Gilded Age combined with the repressive social policies and racism of the 50s.

Interestingly enough, the 2% most wealthy families don’t make up much that large a percent of a doctor or a nurse’s patients.  Even the other 98% of use (although at lesser rates) pay doctors and nurses for medical care. 

Cops?  Their number also has more to do with population than the whims of rich people.

Ditto for firefighters.

Please, try to make sense.  I know it can be hard.

Furthermore, perhaps do the math about how the rich are getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer, and how many people whose income comes from capital gains instead of income tax actually pay less in taxes than their poorer brethren . . . and, and, wake up.

Wow, Dana.  A tax scheme to enrich the richest and penalize the poor.

Color me unsurprised.

“Wingnuts want the economic policies of the Gilded Age combined with the repressive social policies and racism of the 50s.”

...I’m sure the social policies and racism of the late 19th Century are at least a match for anything that happened in the ‘50’s.

It’s more a fashion thing — Ronald Reagan would not have looked good in a full beard and a stovepipe hat, but he could have played the dad on Leave it to Beaver without anybody noticing the difference.

So if they could have the society and economy of the 1890’s and combine it with ‘50’s fashion, the wingnuts could have heaven on earth…yuck…

There will be those who don’t like President Obama’s moves toward greater government control of everything and greater federal involvement in the economy and in people’s lives who will see this as a method of resistance.

President Obama’s moves toward greater government control of everything?  You can type that with a straight face?

After the PATRIOT act?  After deliberately slowing down all FOIA requests?  After illegally politicizing the DOJ?  After no-bid, no accounting rules contracts to the VP’s friends that were simply plundering the treasury, since there is next to nothing to show of “reconstruction” except a few electrocuted soldiers—OUR soldiers?  After wiretapping our own people?

Obama made transparency important day one.  He signed an executive order requiring positions to be filled by people with experience and qualifications, something so basic it’s offensive that it needed to be made plain.  Something you would think the magnificent brains of the proto-Galts would have done anyway, instead of putting horse fanciers in charge of emergency management.

We were practically a dictatorship after 9-11.  W and Cheney were all about concentrating power in the “unitary executive”; Obama talks about respecting the Constitution.  Yet it’s Obama who is moving toward greater gov’t control of everything?

The world becomes such a simple place when you can reduce those you despite into a cartoonish, 2-D cutout.  For example, the following outratgeous quote—

“Wingnuts want the economic policies of the Gilded Age combined with the repressive social policies and racism of the 50s.”

—is absolute B.S. and only serves to demonize rather than enlighten.

Naturally, this is why MikeEss and liberals like him embrace such irrational stereotypes, because it neatly fits in with their anti-conservative bigotry.

This further explains why it doesn’t take liberals that much more to hold the rich in this country with such utter contempt.  Wealth and conservatism are often identified together, just as military service and conservatism are a similarly natural pairing.  This could likely be why liberals are against both things with such vehemence.

-A

For all your righteous indignation, Atanarjuat, you haven’t disproven anything anyone on this thread has said.

The point has been made repeatedly and manifestly clear: the moneyed class of this nation, who are responsible for creating jobs (such as those nurses, construction workers, and linemen that have been previously highlighted) and maintaining the prosperity of the U.S. are genuinely alarmed.

See, that’s the thing: You’re arguing from a Great Man theory of economics which, as the Voice of the People, I have to tell you is total bullshit. Especially when you include nurses in that mix. Because the fact is, nurses right now are, and will remain, in complete shortage. Even if every single current hospital administrator were to drop dead of massive coronaries all at once, <strike>it’d be a good start</strike> nurses would still be in shortage. Meanwhile, there’d be an absolute stampede to fill the empty administrator positions so that they could get back to hiring nurses as fast as they possibly could.

The same is true to a lesser extent for linemen and construction workers, where there’s certainly no shortage. There’s generally nothing intrinsically special about people who are currently in a hiring position; at least not when compared to those who are just below them in the social hierarchy. The people at the top worked hard, yes (sometimes); they were smart, yes; they were lucky, absolutely; but they are not the only people worthy of doing what they do. Houses would still get built in this country if the specific construction magnates were no longer magnating, because people need roofs.

In fact, considering the way construction has been handled over the last decade or so, I daresay they’d get built better.

“Funny how those who romanticize the 50’s don’t romanticize the marginal tax rates at that time . . . “

I doubt they even know what the tax rates were. When you mention 60-90% of one’s income being taxed if you make over a certain amount they reply that is outrageous and would never occur in the states.

Then you when point out the periods that it did occur and how the economy had tremendous growth they just get a blank look on their face.

Shorter me: Fuck your “moneyed class.”

“For example, the following outratgeous quote—
“Wingnuts want the economic policies of the Gilded Age combined with the repressive social policies and racism of the 50s.”
—is absolute B.S. and only serves to demonize rather than enlighten.”

First, that “outrageous quote” was what Ben D. said, not me.  I said something that I hoped was even more outrageous than that, which under the circumstances seems perfectly appropriate…

Back on topic…

You claim you want full laissez faire Capitalism, right?  That is basically what we had during the Gilded Age — a very weak federal government and very strong businesses, many of them monopolies, who were powerful enough to have secured their positions forever, as long as the federal government remained weak.

Monopoly railroads, monopoly oil companies, monopoly steel makers, etc.  Zero protection for workers, which lead many to be killed or maimed on the job, and with no social safety net, if you were missing an arm or a leg, or were blind, you were royally screwed.  No unions.  No regulations.  Complete freedom to screw the environment to your heart’s content. 

Constant influx of extremely vulnerable immigrants who can be exploited mercilessly.  You kill or maim a few, there’s always more to take their places.

So there’s your paradise: little to no taxes to speak of, a completely unrestrained business climate, which led many business to Capitalism’s natural endpoint, monopoly.

If you really believe what you claim to believe, why is that not a description of heaven?  If it wasn’t for that Republican hero Teddy Roosevelt, we’d be living in it to this day…

As an add-on to what Auguste said, if there was an actual competitive labor market, then nurses would actually be paid more than hospital administrators. There’s unmet demand, thus prices go up. There’s lots of MBA’s (although I’d argue that a simple administrative assistant would be able to do that job once everything is up and running) looking for those jobs as well.

Wages are not set by the free and open market. They’re set by an arbitrary social hierarchy where the people who make remuneration decisions assume that jobs like their own are worth the most.

“Were you born this dumb or did you have to work for it?”

...people just don’t appreciate how hard trolling lefty blogs is.  Sure it looks easy, spouting off a bunch of crap you heard on Limbaugh’s show or Faux New Channel, or read on Little Green Footballs.  But think about the effect of memorizing all that self-evidently bogus crap has on the individual.  Schizophrenia, here we come. 

Besides, just imagine where we’d be if A-hole pulled up stakes and went Galt on us…

Unfortunately, I don’t think that will happen Mike ... that would be too much like empiricism and empiricism is too much like scientific method for an objectivist.

I think it bears mentioning that the “Go Galt” scenario has already happened: the economy has already collapsed. Why did this happen? I suspect because a lot of the people who had regulatory knowledge and experience were forced out of government under Bush. A lot of financiers who knew what they were talking about lost their jobs when they didn’t get the amazing returns that all the people trading CDOs were getting, and entrepreneurs were forced out of the system into regular jobs because of spiralling health care premiums. So we are where we are. Why are the people who got us to where we are now acting as though they have the moral authority to tell the president that he’s doing everything wrong and “walking out” in protest? Do they really think we’re going to take it seriously when they advocate returning to the failed policies of the past?

I believe that the greater the government intervention in our economy, the less freedom we have.

Somalia.  And Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle”. 

The Government can most certainly destroy freedom.  It can also advance it by serving as a counter to corporate power and to misfortune by blind circumstance.  Security and freedom are not opposites; they serve in a dialectic, where they can both enhance and impede the other.

I do not believe that it is the place of the government to favor the poor or the middle class or the wealthy; the government should favor no one at all.

As has been mentioned on your blog, societies seem to function best with a GINI between 25 and 40.  The US in 2005 was 46.9 - and is still rising.

The end result of letting such trends continue is a stratified society, a sort of feudalism similar to Argentina or Brazil.  THAT is the sort of society you are advocating.

Rather, the government should do as much as possible to get out of the way of people’s freedom and rights.  If that means the wealthy happen to get wealthier, well, so be it.

Again, Somalia.

“Why are the people who got us to where we are now acting as though they have the moral authority to tell the president that he’s doing everything wrong and “walking out” in protest?”

...‘cause they’re clueless arrogant pricks, who have a god-complex clouding their sense of reality…

“Do they really think we’re going to take it seriously when they advocate returning to the failed policies of the past?”

...well, if A-hole is representative of some segment of Americans, and unfortunately I believe he is, some of “us” really have been so trashed by wingnut Koolaid consumption that they really do think we never gave slash-‘n-burn, dog-eat-dog, full-contact, fight-to-the-death capitalism a good opportunity.

They won’t be happy until it’s tried over and over, to the point we’re all wearing animal skins and living in caves.  And then they’ll start telling everyone they aren’t to blame for society’s collapse because they’re libertarians…

nurses, construction workers, and linemen that have been previously highlighted) and maintaining the prosperity of the U.S. are genuinely alarmed.

Which is the point of Atlas Shrugged, that people who run industry shouldn’t ever be fucked with, because any move to induce them to invest back into their communities (taxes) will create a bottom-up collapse. In other words, if we pay taxes, allow unions to form, or make any move at all to enforce human decency in business, the whole thing will collapse.

Except that’s precisely what happened. Government removed as many barriers to profit as possible. Traders, bankers, etc. then went about making as much short term profit as possible, resulting in a collapse. We did the experiment for eight years. It didn’t fucking work. In fact removing regulation had the opposite effect: the economy went to shit.

I think part of the problem is people tend to think those with wealth and influence are any smarter than the average Jill on the street, when in my experience the mean distribution of humanity and intelligence is precisely the same as you’d see at any city bus stop. Wealth != worth.

Maybe this is off-topic, but am I the only one who sees that *Obama* isn’t raising taxes on anyone? The bill Bush signed had a sunset provision. *Bush* is raising the taxes!

Trolls would be a lot better at convincing us to abandon stereotypes of wingnuts if they didn’t embody every single one.

As I said, this is a reflcetion of a quasi-religious belief, not a reflection of sober thinking on policy which is driving you.

Unsurprisingly, he has a religion-religion on top of a political religion.  The most important thing is to avoid thinking, ever.  Perhaps wingnuttery is caused by superstitious beliefs that if you start thinking, your dick falls off.  That seems to be the rationale 90% of the time, and the other 10% is Ann Althouse.

steve jobs is rich, and conservatives don’t give money AGAINST prop 8 to my knowledge.

Wealth and conservatism are often identified together, just as military service and conservatism are a similarly natural pairing.  This could likely be why liberals are against both things with such vehemence.

Fuck you, troll. 

My liberal father was in the air force.  One of my ancestors, Gen James Doolittle, led the Doolittle Raiders, America’s response to Pearl Harbor.  Others fought in the Civil War.  Before them, others fought in the Revolution.

Liberals all.  This country was founded by liberals who kicked the red-coated servants of royalty and the status quo off this side of the planet.

As for wealth, I grew up with it.  Got socked by Bush’s economy and repeated lay-off and learned first-hand how much life sucks when you’re poor.  But it didn’t change my politics:  I’ve always voted Democratic. 

You’re the one conflating wealth with conservative values, and in typical Republican/Moral Majority/Limbaugh fashion, pretend that those values are that of the majority in the country.  Same thing with the military—they support Obama.

Argue the merits or give it up.

Jimmy Doolittle? Fuck, you’re practically American royalty.

Regarding liberals and war, it’s true most liberals are not pro-war.  But that doesn’t mean we are against defending ourselves from attack.

Liberals know that warfare represents a last resort when logic and morality have completely broken down and ego and nationalism are allowed free reign.

If the Department of Defense was truly about defending America, and not really about projecting American power for political purposes, no one would have a problem with it.

But not only do we use warfare as an adjunct to diplomacy in the most cynical fashion, while loudly decrying others who do the same, we have also made the production of military arms and the maintenance of our military a large part of our economy.

Decisions about defense matters are never merely about the need to protect ourselves.  There is congressional interest in continued spending to benefit constituents, there are continual threats against other nations for political and economic reasons, there are military bases all over the world with thousand of normal employees, besides military personnel.

The Military/Industrial complex, recognized as a grave problem facing America by the last good Republican president, Dwight Eisenhower, is its own lifeform which will, if given the opportunity, consume every resource and every citizen we have in a pointless waste of blood and treasure.

For the lovers of war, is there ever a large enough and awesome enough military?  No.

Will we continue to spend ourselves into economic irrelevance while our competitors allow us to destroy ourselves economically?

If it was up to the Reichwing, the answer would obviously be yes…

My liberal husband is still in the military and my liberal ass once was. 

To join in on the chorus of “you’re related to Gen. Doolittle?!?!”  Um, wow, you’re related to Gen. Doolittle?!?!  Awesome.

Speaking of military types, other than Colin Powell, how many members of the Bush Administration served active duty let alone saw combat?  And which party did the last General to seek the presidential nomination belong to?  I’m just askin’. 

There’s a damn big difference between having a hard-on for guts and glory and actually understanding what war is about.  One thing I will say about my conservative brethren in the military—with very few exceptions, most of the Republicans I knew in the military were very strongly anti-interventionists.  So they don’t fit in with your imperialist bullshit fantasies.

Phoenician in a time of Romans:

Not so much Somalia, which has no government at all to speak of, as Haiti under the Docs, where the government was weak compared to the rich, but more than willing to use what force it had to torture and kill any of the poor who got uppity. One of my favorite (ha!) descriptions from an observer of that time was of all the rich driving Land Rovers and other off-road vehicles, because between their perfectly manicured walled estates with utterly flat paved driveways and internal roads were rutted dirt tracks—they were so committed to low taxes as a principle that they were unwilling to pave the roads in their own districts.

we have also made the production of military arms and the maintenance of our military a large part of our economy.

I’d make that “the appearance of maintaining our military” since we send our soldiers to war with inadequate armor, try to deny them 3.5% pay raises during war, and fail to acknowledge, much less properly care for, the mental pressures and PTSD they come home with.

Someone’s making a fortune off maintaining the military, but that maintenance isn’t doing an adequate job for the soldiers.  Ah well, as the last administration said, they’re “fungible”.

——-
OK, Jimmy Doolittle isn’t a direct ancestor; he’s, like, a 6th cousin.  My ggggg-grandfather and his were brothers who fought in the Revolutionary War together.  Damn Yankees terrorists using guns to advocate for mob rule! 

My grandfather always liked to joke that we shouldn’t claim Jimmy Doolittle as a relation as he didn’t live up to the family name (“do little” as he did a lot).

Wow.

The irrelevant tangents sure develop quickly around here.

Now we’re discussing how patriotic liberals and how they’d be very willing to serve—provided, of course, they agree in advance with the mission and see some advantage for themselves.  That’s not what serving one’s country means, and, once again, the evidence is laid bare for all to see that freedom is taken for granted by all these anti-war “critics.”  More significantly, this could explain why most U.S. military bases are in red states.

Not much sense trying to maintain a marine camp, for example, where the local latte sippers regard you with scorn and thoroughly despise you.

For myself, I respect the sacrifice of those members of the Armed Forces who have fought and are still fighting in the War on Terror.  This is why America has not suffered a terrorist attack since 9/11 (I don’t include the anthrax attacks, as that appears to be domestic in origin).  In the same vein, I respect the sacrifice and tireless work of all the entrepreneurs, investors, business owners, and venture capitalists who have kept the wealth flowing and growing in America.  We have them to thank for our jobs and our own economic security, even during these financially troubled times.

As for going “John Galt,” that’s just a lot of hot air that’s likely generated from nervousness (and you’d be nervous, too, if you know the government was going to seize part of your fortunes for the sake of “wealth redistribution”).

-A

That’s not what serving one’s country means, and, once again, the evidence is laid bare for all to see that freedom is taken for granted by all these anti-war “critics.” More significantly, this could explain why most U.S. military bases are in red states.

I was Navy Reserve ... when and where did you serve?

You’d be surprised how many veterans are wandering the halls of Pandagon.  Too bad you never would have met any of us in uniform, as we weren’t 101st keyboardists like yourself.

For myself, I respect the sacrifice of those members of the Armed Forces who have fought and are still fighting in the War on Terror.

So what about the soldiers who got sent to uselessly waste their lives invading and occupying a nation that had fuck all to do with “The War On Terror”?

If it was Riyadh that was occupied now instead of Baghdad, you might have a point.  But you’re just another useful idiot for the Haliburton shareholders.

This is why America has not suffered a terrorist attack since 9/11 (I don’t include the anthrax attacks, as that appears to be domestic in origin).

14 June 2002. 6 December 2004. 13 Sept 2006. 12 Jan 2007. 16 Sept 2008.

You’re a moron.

if you know the government was going to seize part of your fortunes for the sake of “wealth redistribution”

A fortune built on sucking away the chances of many in the next generation to go to college or own a home.

Cry me a river - many of your “wealth generators” were not “job creators” but “economy looters and destroyers”.

We know that now.  Wahhhhhhhh they gonna tax MEE MMEEEE MEEEE:?:?:??:?::? wahh how dawe day tax MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Now we’re discussing how patriotic liberals and how they’d be very willing to serve—provided, of course, they agree in advance with the mission and see some advantage for themselves.  That’s not what serving one’s country means, and, once again, the evidence is laid bare for all to see that freedom is taken for granted by all these anti-war “critics.”

No. Fuck no. Can we please stop this Republicanism? It is not unpatriotic to oppose a war that is killing thousands of Americans and Iraqis and draining our economy for the sole purpose of securing power for the Republican Party.

this could explain why most U.S. military bases are in red states.

In my understanding, it’s because red states are the ones in need of the extra government money (gasp!) that comes along with hosting the military base.

Wow.

The irrelevant tangents sure develop quickly around here.

Um, yes. That’s what happens when you start them.

My granda volunteered to fight in the Korean War.

His first vote was for Adlai Stevenson. He’s voted for every Democrat on the ballot since.

FAIL, troll. FAIL!

My grandpa also had a saying—“The Republican Party is the Party of Privilege, always has been, always will be.”

But since he was the first person to go to college in my family thanks to the G.I. Bill and got a nice home in the suburbs thanks to the FHA I suppose Ayn Rand would call him a “welfare parasite”. Says a lot more about her than it does about him.

“as that appears to be domestic in origin”

That is still a terrorist attack as defined by the law of the United States. Most terrorism in the US is native and usually done by Christian groups such as the KKK and other fundie nutbags.

Thankfully most of these attacks are nipped in the bud by law enforcement but what is unfortante is that the details aren’t mentioned on the national news even though if it was done by Blacks or foreigners it would get national press coverage.

You know, showing disrespect for our servicemen and women unless they vote Republican makes you dumber than a stick in my book.

Liberals, progressives, Democrats, hippies—all are American and all are patriots.  If you cannot understand that, again—dumber than a stick.

this could explain why most U.S. military bases are in red states.

Seriously, what the hell does “where a base is located” have to do with the political persuasion of where the soldiers are from?  Is that how you think it works?  The base is in North Carolina because that’s where all the soldiers are from?

Oh yeah, he also worked in (gasp!) a UNIONIZED job!

ZOMG!!! TEH COMMUNISM!

North Carolina is now a blue state. So is my home state of Virginia, another heavily military state that Obama won by seven points.

Hey, troll. Bases are in mostly “red” or rural states because the land is cheaper. It has nothing to do with the political alignment of said state, as the soldiers (as has been pointed out) stationed at the base can be from anywhere in the country.

“Bases are in mostly “red” or rural states because the land is cheaper. It has nothing to do with the political alignment of said state, as the soldiers (as has been pointed out) stationed at the base can be from anywhere in the country.”

...no, no no!  Soldiers naturally migrate to places where the “I Support George Bush and Our Brave Troops” stickers are most common…I thought everybody knew that…

this could explain why most U.S. military bases are in red states.

*snort*

First, unless I am sorely mistaken, our current military bases were built loooooong before this whole red state / blue state BS.

Second, last time I checked, VIRGINIA, the state in which I was raised, was you know, a BLUE STATE?
 
Ft Eustis Army Transportation Base

Coast Guard

Yorktown Naval Weapons Depot.

Norfolk Naval Weapons Station

Camp Perry (CIA training)

Quantico (FBI)

Langley AFB

And, you know, the fucking PENTAGON. Which is in Arlington, Virginia - a blue state.

Nob.

For the lovers of war, is there ever a large enough and awesome enough military?

Starship Troopers a la Heinlein?

Though I know the movie has been panned, I’ve always saw it as campy comedy where one can easily cheer for the bugs to win and then retain those troopers as living anti-itch solutions.  When bugs feel itchy somewhere…just grab a trooper…hand him/her an oversized assault rifle….and let the trooper go to town with it until s(he) runs out of ammo.

Oh, hey - is Connecticut “blue”?

Cuz there’s that Naval Submarine Base in Groton / New London, CT.

Howzabout Washington?

Home of SWFPAC in Bangor.

Oooo, I know, my adopted home of Nevada! Nellis AFB!

Sorry - blue state!

Your assertion is completely irrelevant, non-sensical, and has nothing to do with anything useful to the broader discussion at hand.

*bzzzzzt*

BUNNIES!

And how about this from Jesse’s Galtin’: The Bow-Out Gang:

Melissa just posted this in her Quote of the Day:

“When is a tax cut for 98 percent of taxpayers portrayed as a tax increase? When some of the small handful of people whose taxes will go up happen to control the nation’s news media.”—Jamison Foser, in his latest column for Media Matters, which is a must-read.

emphasis in original

teac on 03/06 at 04:01 PM

And you punked out here, too:

And from Foser’s column:

Slate.com’s Daniel Gross estimates that for someone with $350,000 in income, this will amount to about $1,500 a year in increased taxes.

All this gnashing of teeth, all this sturm und drang, all of this hand-wringing, whingey wah-wahing over 0.428571% of total income??

Really?????

Over an extra $125 a frickin’ month???????

Shit, just drop the daily Starbucks habit and brew your own. Or drop one night per month of dinner out with the family.

I’d like “Arguing in bad faith” for $100 please, Alex.

teac on 03/06 at 04:11 PM

And there’s this gem:

There is no substance.

Someone making $350,000 in income would pay an estimated additional $1500 / year in taxes (see my post above at 4:11 pm.

My wife and I together make less than 6 figures.

Even we could find that amount of money in our budget.

teac on 03/06 at 04:19 PM

And finally, from your hero TigerHawk:

We hear from other precincts

By TigerHawk at 3/06/2009 07:15:00 AM

A number of big lefty blogs linked my last TigerHawk TV yesterday. The comments over on YouTube are really quite something. And to think I was catching grief from the right because I said I was willing to pay higher taxes; I just do not want to be villified by politicians for being in a position to do so. It is not even clear why these guys are angry, but boy are they.

Permalink/Main
(24) Comments Trackback

teac on 03/06 at 06:52 PM

-A, you’re a putz.

MAJeff!!!!

How are you??

I just do not want to be villified by politicians for being in a position to do so.

I’m not sure what TigerHawk makes his money doing, but I’m betting it’s something in the straw industry.

On his profile he says he’s in the medical instrument business in Princeton, NJ.

Link

Stick, bunnies, disemvowel.  Whatever’s clever.  Send -A back to Balloon Juice where people know better than to engage him seriously.

(Sorry Cole!)

Once again, putting my voice in about giving Assholewut a stick rule ban, before my computer overheats again.

I understand, Blue Fielder.  Dissenting voices must be silenced; liberal views cannot withstand analysis or debate.  The knee-jerk anger I’ve encountered on this thread alone provides ample evidence of this particular axiom.

By the way, Virginia and North Carolina are still very much conservative, despite the electoral fluke of the last election.  When blue collar workers and moderately wealthy folks who thought it would be “cool” to vote for a silver-tongued smooth operator (Obama) soon find themselves bereft of an economic future, thanks in part to deficit-ballooning Porkulus schemes, that corpse-blue pallor will shift back to a healthy, vital red.

Remember, liberals: Robin Hood is a fanciful fictional story.  In real life, people who’ve sacrificed so much of their time and energy (and in some cases, their health) to build their wealth are not at all that enthusiastic about having Obama Hood and his Merry Muggers “redistribute” their earnings to those feel entitled to the comforts of life without having to work for it.

-A

How are you??

defending in two weeks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

shorter -A

blah blah blah blah blah

views cannot withstand analysis or debate.

If you actually provided any analysis or debate, maybe, just maybe, you’d see just what they stand up to.

Obama Hood and his Merry Muggers

*facepalm*

“redistribute” their earnings to those feel entitled to the comforts of life without having to work for it.

Last I checked, things like food weren’t “comforts.” Privileged asshole.

MAJeff, that oh-so-clever “shorter” snark is no substitute for an actual refutation, which only leads me to conclude that my prior points have a lot more validity than you’re willing to let on.

I appreciate the validation, however oblique or taunt-filled.

-A

P.S. Rebecca, if it’s only a question of food and clothing, then there’s no dispute at all.  No one in this country can starve to death (unless it’s intentional), and the inspiring photo from recent days of First Lady Michelle Obama working at a soup kitchen demonstrates that those with the means continue to provide the basic necessities of life to those who don’t.  That’s compassion.  Theft of one’s riches is not compassion, but a crime that’s soon to be legalized by the Obama administration.  Therein lies the threat to the continued prosperity and stability for society.

Rebecca, clearly for the Galtoids, “comforts of life” = life.

I mean, if you’re dead because you lost your job, lost your house and got sick with no health insurance, well you’re not going to be “comfortable” anymore, right? Life is a privilege bestowed on us proles by the enlightened upper classes, dontcha know. That’s what it says in “the Constitution I defend” by Rush.

Dissenting voices must be silenced; liberal views cannot withstand analysis or debate. 

Dissent and debate are fine and welcome.  If you haven’t noticed, there seems to be plenty within the majority party representatives in congress.

Stupidity must be ruthlessly stamped out without pity or explanation. 

Then again, Analjackwit is probably too stupid to know the difference between argument, contradiction, and parrot-like repetition of fact-free talking points.

“Theft of one’s riches is not compassion, but a crime that’s soon to be legalized by the Obama administration.”

...no real comment on this (it’s not necessary since it’s self-evidently idiotic), but i wanted to repeat it because like a lot of stupid things there is a fascinating, yet frightening, quality to some kinds of utter lunacy.  It’s not as good in this respect as when you compared simple, ordinary taxation to The Holocaust, but it’s pretty <strike>good</strike> stupid…

“Therein lies the threat to the continued prosperity and stability for society.”

Well, isn’t this ignorant of both history in general and American History specifically.

If Paris Hilton can’t have a $10,000 dollar purse to carry a small dog in, the whole country will collapse because she’ll stomp her little feet and hold her breath until she does.

Or will it collapse because there are millions out of work and starving who feel they have no choice but to overthrow their government, one way or another?

I always get those two confused…

If Paris Hilton can’t have a $10,000 dollar purse to carry a small dog in, the whole country will collapse because she’ll stomp her little feet and hold her breath until she does.

I always get those two confused…

It’s fairly easy to figure out - Paris Hilton is not going to be hanging people from lampposts, because she’s afraid she’d break a nail…

If Paris Hilton can’t have a $10,000 dollar purse to carry a small dog in, the whole country will collapse because she’ll stomp her little feet and hold her breath until she does.

The horror!  A woman in possession of fabulous sums of wealth having the temerity to spend it as she desires.  That simply won’t do.  She should be a poor, near-homeless hippie, which would prove she’s a real human being worthy of respect and dignity—and of course (most important of all), a liberal.

Or will it collapse because there are millions out of work and starving who feel they have no choice but to overthrow their government, one way or another?

I somehow doubt that shiftless liberals who are used to having all their privileged comforts payed for by others will ever revolt against “The Man,” but instead they’ll continue to swindle the electorate via ACORN and other voting fraud schemes to put in place more Porkulus-friendly politicians.  I fear that’s the wealth-redistributing direction this country will be taking for a while.  Until, of course, the backs of the rich are broken and the U.S.A. becomes one huge Calcutta full of the destitute and the desperate.  I hope you liberals congratulate yourselves for a job well done if this comes to pass.

-A

Actually, we liberals will congratulate ourselves on the day you resume taking your medication, A.

We will, Thanks! Your validation is not appreciated, no matter how you offer it.

Atanarjuat - you may have stolen the crown of most clueless troll with your yeoman efforts to reveal your stupidity today. I am puzzled, however, by how you can be out there making a success of yourself when you spend so much time giving voice to right-wing paranoid fantasies on a website?  I guess you don’t have to go Galt to get under that magic $250,000 mark - probably not even to get under a tenth of that. I like your mention of Calcutta - I suppose you left India to make a better life here, rather than sticking around to fight for your conservative values at home. If we want America to avoid becoming one huge Calcutta, we could start by packing off your worthless ass…

“I somehow doubt that shiftless liberals who are used to having all their privileged comforts payed for by others will ever revolt against “The Man,” but instead they’ll continue to swindle the electorate via ACORN and other voting fraud schemes to put in place more Porkulus-friendly politicians.”

...hey, sorry for not responding sooner, but I had to shower and put a tie on to go to my white collar, clean-hands job in Information Technology where I will be a shiftless liberal all day while I’m programming in PHP and keeping the users of my systems happy. 

Oh, and after work I’m going to the Librul People’s Assembly (it used to be a WalMart until we seized it in the name of The People) where I will help plan the overthrow of democracy in America, through mechanisms like ACORN, Jeremiah Wright’s malignant Islam that only pretends to be Christianity, radical environmental laws like “water should be clean, dude”, and a 3% increase in the highest tax bracket, all so we can turn the US into a Marxist state that somehow has a streak of otherwise incompatible fascism in it…just like you feared…

...and speaking of your irrational fears: “I fear that’s the wealth-redistributing direction this country will be taking for a while.  Until, of course, the backs of the rich are broken and the U.S.A. becomes one huge Calcutta full of the destitute and the desperate.”

...‘cause if there’s one thing we know about Calcutta, it’s that it used to be a capitalist paradise, until Zebadiah Hussein Obama (B HUSSEIN Obama’s great great grandfather) came along and raised taxes 3% and tried to help the poor and unfortunate which directly (and immediately) lead to Calcutta becoming a librul-fascist hell-on-earth…or not…

“I hope you liberals congratulate yourselves for a job well done if this comes to pass.”

I’m already planning a big party featuring BBQ Baby Ribs (from real White Christian babies), wine made from the blood of innocent rich people, and using toothpicks made from the bones of one of Paris Hilton’s dogs…

MAJeff-

Best of luck, break a leg, and all that!

When blue collar workers and moderately wealthy folks who thought it would be “cool” to vote for a silver-tongued smooth operator (Obama) soon find themselves bereft of an economic future, thanks in part to deficit-ballooning Porkulus schemes,...

Thanks for clarifying in the parenthetical who you were talking about.  I thought you meant Ronald Reagan.

Virginia is so incredibly conservative we have two Democratic Senators, a Democratic Governor, a majority Democratic Congressional delegation, and a Democratic State Senate.

Yeah, we’re just like Utah. Tool.

In fact, it’s so conservative that John McCain won the state by minus seven points!

No, seriously.  -A is a pure troll, in the old school Usenet sense.  His one and only purpose is to get attention and disrupt threads.  Please, PLEASE stop giving him what he wants by giving him serious rebuttals.

Also ban his ass.  Please.