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Next entry: What about love? Previous entry: Elaine Donnelly goes off the rails and over the side of the mountain with her new ‘report’ on DADT

Paranoia isn’t an argument

You can really tell what the agenda behind this article is when author Joel Kotkin puts “white flight” in square quotes, implying that liberals made it up because of our irrational hatred of the suburbs.  (Via Atrios, who points out that you aren’t exactly assaulting the suburbs when you pour hundreds of millions of dollars into propping up suburban home prices, so suburbanites who bought high don’t take a bath.)  Except that the existence of white flight is not controversial, as Kotkin implies, or at least no more than evolutionary theory, which is to say not controversial to people who are open to evidence.  It’s incredibly well-documented.  His mouth-smacking about the suburbs becoming more diverse is misleading—-inner suburbs, sure, but that’s simply creating another round of white flight as many white residents run to the exurbs, preferring two hour commutes, it seems, over living in racially diverse neighborhoods.  If you truly value diversity, then the explosion of suburbia should be a concern to you.  That’s not the same thing as suggesting everyone who lives in the suburbs is a racist, or that was their motivation.  But the larger trends shouldn’t be ignored. 

Obviously, Kotkin wants to avoid this question, because his cute little thesis about how the President is going to be punished by suburban voters for his supposed anti-suburban views is basically one click to the left of the arguments put forwards by Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck that Barack Obama is a “racist” out to get white people.  I have no idea if that’s his intention, but that’s the effect.  And without a real willingness to grapple with these realities of white flight and racism that are part of suburban formations, a lot of Kotkin’s arguments don’t really make sense.  Like this:

In addition, the president’s stimulus—with its $8 billion allocation for high-speed rail and proposed giant increases in mass transit—offers little to anyone who lives outside a handful of large metropolitan cores. Economics writer Robert Samuelson, among others, has denounced the high-speed rail idea as “a boondoggle” not well-suited to a huge, multi-centered country like the United States. Green job schemes also seem more suited to boost employment for university researchers and inner-city residents than middle-income suburbanites.

Except that some of the biggest beneficiaries of public transit by rail are the very suburbanites in middle American cities that Kotkin claims to fiercely defend.  Austin is a medium-sized city, and its light rail is being stymied by some pretty nasty political forces, but if they ever let it work, then the main beneficiaries will be people who live in the suburbs and work in the city—-the traditional suburbanite the Kotkin is slobbering all over in barely-concealed “Real American” style.  In Dallas, it’s already working (and well) this way—-giving suburbanites a break from endless amounts of traffic going to and from work.  But I can see where Kotkin is skeptical that people will actually use this transit. 

 

But ultimately it will be sticks and not carrots that planners hope to use to drive de-suburbanization. Perhaps the most significant will be new draconian controls over land use. Administration officials, particularly from the EPA, participated in the drafting of the recent “Moving Cooler” report, which suggested such policies as charging tolls on the Interstate Highway System, charging people to park in front of their homes, and steering some 90 percent of all future development into the most dense portions of already existing urban development.

Of course, such policies have little or no chance of being passed by Congress. Too many representatives come from suburban or rural districts to back policies that would penalize a population that uses automobiles for upwards of 98 percent of their transportation and account for 95 percent of all work trips.

I’m not completely convinced that people drive because they love it, particularly the traffic-intensive driving that characterizes a suburban commute.  But I’m sure that Kotkin is right and a lot of suburbanites will be dragged from their cars kicking and screaming, and it’s because their cars function like the gated communities and intense security systems and yes, culture of gun nuttery.  Which is a not-a-little-racist paranoid view of a diversifying America as a crime-ridden wasteland they need to shield themselves from.  But that said, it’s not doing suburbanites any favors to pander as hard as possible to the most paranoid, racist members.  Especially not since gas prices are going to go up in the long term, whether we like it or not.  Racism-tinged paranoia is a relative emotion, I suspect—-if it saves you money to squelch it and get on a train to work, a whole lot of people will choose that.  And then you have the other round of folks that live in the suburbs because that’s the American dream that’s been sold to them, and they haven’t even considered some of the uglier underpinnings.  There are advantages that I won’t disagree with—-the space being the big one.  But I also think Rich Benjamin isn’t wrong in his book Searching for Whitopia to say that some of the language about suburbs being clean and quiet is loaded with prejudiced implications, though he’s quite generous is saying that white suburbanites often are well-intentioned enough not to understand what the implications of their paranoia about urban spaces are. 

Kotkin assumes the environmentalists are looking at density-centric solutions to environmental problems because we hate suburbanites, a rather harsh judgment that doesn’t line up with any arguments from the evil liberal urban yuppie elite that I’ve heard.  But that’s really his argument!

The anti-suburban impulse is nothing new. Suburbs have rarely been popular among academics, planners, and the punditry. The suburbanite displeased “the professional planner and the intellectual defender of cosmopolitan culture,” noted sociologist Herbert Gans. The 1960s counterculture expanded this critique, viewing suburbia as one of many “tasteless travesties of mass society,” along with fast and processed food, plastics, and large cars. Suburban life represented the opposite of the cosmopolitan urban scene; one critic termed it “vulgaria.”

If we hate them so much—-and I’ll grant you that a lot of urbanites, myself included, mock the hell out of Wal-Mart, SUVs, and other sundry suburban travesties against taste—-why on fucking earth would we want them as neighbors?  I suppose Kotkin believes we hate them so much we’ll ruin our own peace to bring them into our urban hellholes, but that’s not been my experience.  On the contrary—-the yuppie elite often spend their time fighting against encroachment of suburban culture.  Every urban Austinite I knew joked about where the lines to the north and west were that you never crossed, because cultural experiences stopped there.  I had a boss so hardcore he swore he never went north of 45th St.  (If you live in Austin, you’ll get the joke.)  Most urban horror stories involving the residents of suburbia involve two elements: 1) suburbanite comes into urban area and 2) throws a fit/acts like an ass because we don’t act like they do in the suburbs.  Kotkin’s assumption that we’re so hateful to these folks that we want to frog march them in to our neighborhoods doesn’t pass the smell test.  The reality is that more density isn’t desired by urbanites, either, because our housing prices are high enough, thank you very much.

No, greenies are behind density because it’s a good idea.  And even Kotkin has to tip his hat to one strategy, which is to make some suburbs urban spaces of their own (without calling them that)—-denser, more walkable.  We don’t hate cars because we want the suburbanites to get out and mingle (though I suppose for many of them, confronting their fears might make them chill out); we worry that cars are an environmental hazard that has to be contained.  We don’t applaud the Obama administration for seeking ways to improve dense urban areas because we want to steal from suburbanites; we’ve just never had many leaders who give two shits about the cities, and we’re excited that someone cares about taking care of us for once.  Don’t we deserve some improvements?  A lot of American cities are in a bad place because they’ve received so little investment.  Obama’s ideas would improve urban spaces not to punish suburbanites, but because it’s the right thing to do.  City dwellers are people, too.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:58 AM • (169) Comments

As a New Yorker/New Englander (until about 6 months ago), the freak out over tolls on the interstate system is very funny to me.

Comment #1: rowmyboat  on  02/02  at  12:20 PM

As a westerner who moved to New England, the idea of tolls on interstates is the opposite of appealing to me.  Not because I don’t think the roads need to be funded anyway we can get them funded (I’m a CE who’s specialty in UG was transportation) but because of the backups, idling, wasted time and fuel, increased agrevation.
I’m in a far suburb, partly because we had to go out that far to afford anything with a yard for our 2 large active dogs, partly because my state university was on the outer ring so I was going to have to get there anyway and I was at that point the primary caregiver to 2 elementary kids, partly because that not-quite-exurb was damn more diverse than the inner suburb we had temporarily lived in for the first 8 months (which absolutely freaked out my kids, my spouse and me-monochrome neighborhoods even in overall diversed towns along I-128 seemed to be the norm besides being insanely expensive while 1/2 of the adults was back in school).

Comment #2: helen w. h.  on  02/02  at  12:43 PM

I live in the inner city, have lived in the same neighborhood for 40 years. My experiences with suburbanites that move “back” are not pleasant.  They move in because the houses are big, neighborhood is quaint, blah, blah.  Then they start complaining about renters (the horrible beasts) and the minorities and/or immigrants (that have ALWAYS been there).  Then they decide the “save” my neighborhood (because I have done nothing in 40 years to keep in quaint enough for them to want to move there).  They create chaos, change parking on the streets, down zone, etc, then leave because those things don’t make the minorities/renters/immigrants go away. (duh, they like the neighborhood too).  So, no, I don’t want them living anywhere near me or MY neighborhood.

Comment #3: Michelle the Red  on  02/02  at  12:43 PM

Everyone hated it until it happened in the Austin suburbs, too.  Now they love it, because it reduces traffic.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  12:43 PM

Light Rail makes for an ideal case study in the racism of exurbia.  St. Louis’ light rail system first opened in 1993, and the initial line ran from the airport in the northern suburbs through downtown STL and ending just across the river in East St. Louis, Illinois.  Everybody loved it when it first opened, because it provided an easy commute from the airport to downtown for travellers, going through mostly working-class ethnically diverse inner suburbs and the urban core of the City of St. Louis.

Controversy began, however, when a second smaller line was added a few year ago, going through upper-class mostly white municipalities in mid-county, and many of the wealthy locals in Clayton, MO initially balked at the line going through their city.  Rather than being honest and saying “we don’t black people to have easy access to our city”, they pretended that the issue was aesthetic, that they didn’t want “ugly rail lines” cutting through their posh neighborhoods with million dollar homes.  So Metro revised their plans to put the line largely underground through the city - skyrocketing costs of the project - and the supposed issue was addressed, but many Claytonites continued to balk quietly, because they didn’t want “those people” coming to their pristine little whiteyville.

Further expansion is being studied to take another light rail line out into the further western suburbs, which are almost entirely white, but county taxpayers refuse to approve any tax increases to subsidize the costs.  Mostly because they don’t really want light rail running into their communities, and even if it did, many of these assholes would still refuse to use it, because they prefer driving around in their $50K penis-compensating Lexus SUVs than having to ride a train that might have - gulp - black people on it.

Comment #5: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  12:45 PM

Light rail is about the only good thing about Dallas.

I agree with most of this, except that in a lot of places (like San Francisco bay area, or New York City metropolitan area), a lot of people live in the suburbs not because they fear diversity, but because they can’t afford to live in the city.  You get more for your money (at least in terms of absolute square footage) out in the boonies. 

We’re renting cause we can’t afford to buy in the city, but if we weren’t determined to avoid driving, we’d be able to afford a decent-sized house 10-15 miles away from the center.  Our refusal to accept a shitty commute/driving lifestyle is, in some ways, a privilege.  We couldn’t do it if we were too poor to afford rent in the city, or if we had kids who needed their own rooms, etc…

Comment #6: t-ster  on  02/02  at  12:47 PM

Everyone hated the idea of toll roads, that is.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  12:48 PM

As a country we’ve spent a ton of money catering to suburbanites this year - just consider cash-for-clunkers and the tax benefits for buying a house. So I’m paying for all that, but as a non-car owner who rents, I’d like to see a few more of my tax dollars being targeted at financing the MTA and Amtrak. Because they are awesome.

(I tried to post a similar post a few minutes ago, but it disappeared, sorry if this ends up doubling.)

Comment #8: rivki  on  02/02  at  12:50 PM

The funny thing is, the same conservatives who go on about defending exurbia in its current form conflate it with their vision of the 1950s small-town America that didn’t really exist outside “Father Knows Best.”

And even that TV small-town America—a simulacrum of the much coarser one that existed before 1939—was one where kids roamed freely in vacant lots and woods (instead of being carpooled from one programmed activity or another), where main street was dominated by actual mom-and-pop stores and restaurants (instead of by Wal-Mart and other chains worshiped by conservatives), where you actually got to know your neighbours by sitting on the porch during the summer (instead of sequestering yourself in your air-conditioned McMansion) and by walking to a local job (instead of driving 2 hours away).

That’s not to romanticise that small-town America, either—there was a whole lot wrong with those stifling provincial environments. But it seems that suburbia (or more precisely exurbia), even with its half-hearted New Urbanism glosses, has managed to drain anything interesting out of that ideal, leaving a beige husk of cookie-cutter homes on sidewalk-less cul-de-sacs with no stores or theatres within walking distance.

Comment #9: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  01:04 PM

Don’t we deserve some improvements?

No. Obviously. smile

It’s a zero sum game, why should the poor suffering middle class whites pay for the shiftless urbanites who dont pay taxes and won’t even pick up after themselves? (which you can tell cos the cities are such a mess)

Akk 2 paragraphs of channelling Beck is doing my head in. Shame he moved from music to TV smile

Comment #10: firefall  on  02/02  at  01:07 PM

Yep.  What’s forgotten about small town America is it wasn’t a result of “values”, but of being an agrarian society. The small town I lived in existed strictly because of the ranching industry, and as that faded away, poverty became a major problem.  The university helped, but without it?  What is there?

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  01:08 PM

And when I say “strictly”, I mean it.  The university was founded as an ag school, to teach agricultural skills to local ranchers.  It’s a way of life that’s fading, though the interest in organic beef is bringing it back.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  01:10 PM

“If we hate them so much—-and I’ll grant you that a lot of urbanites, myself included, mock the hell out of Wal-Mart, SUVs, and other sundry suburban travesties against taste—-why on fucking earth would we want them as neighbors?  “

You wouldn’t get them as neighbours.  If you follow the European model, you’re going to get an urban core with high-priced condos, inhabited by the monied upper middle class and elites.  The suburbs will still exist, they will simply be in a different form: massive identical apartment blocks built around the train station heading into the Paris, or Berlin, or wherever core.  In a reverse of the white flight, you’ll have the white urban population living in the older, nicely designed buildings in gentrified neighbourhoods, while the immigrants get the concrete ghettoes.  Even there population sorts itself by race, just like in “colour blind” France.  Look at Paris.  You have lower-middle class French suburbs, which are completely separate from the immigrant suburbs.  Far from creating a more equitable society, following such a model would make racial and ethnic divisions even worse. 

“His mouth-smacking about the suburbs becoming more diverse is misleading—-inner suburbs, sure, but that’s simply creating another round of white flight as many white residents run to the exurbs, preferring two hour commutes, it seems, over living in racially diverse neighborhoods. “

Nope, I disagree that race is not a motivating factor.  It’s all about money and trading up.  As an immigrant community becomes more established, its members start buying up property.  They first buy in the cheaper inner suburbs, but the (white) people who lived in the house they just sold to the immigrants have to live somewhere too, right?  So, they use the proceeds of the sale to buy an even bigger house in an exurb, especially since they will have much or all of their principle paid off.  The result is that immigrants move in and white people move out and you perceive it as racism.

Comment #13: PeterZeroOne  on  02/02  at  01:16 PM

I have no idea if that’s his intention, but that’s the effect.

This issue is his hobbyhorse, and as this article demonstrates it’s heavily larded with said horse’s excrement. I mean, look at this:

Green job schemes also seem more suited to boost employment for university researchers and inner-city residents than middle-income suburbanites.

Yeah, because there aren’t any universities outside urban areas. And those high-speed rail lines will terminate at urban city limits, making the transition to the next city via wormhole.

The fact is, Kotkin doesn’t have to worry—not only will the green jobs come, but <strike>black people</strike> “inner-city residents” and those elitist liberal urbanites will do what they always have, and simply not consider the land of Applebees and Wal-Mart as a particularly interesting destination in and of itself.

if they ever let it work, then the main beneficiaries will be people who live in the suburbs and work in the city—-the traditional suburbanite the Kotkin is slobbering all over in barely-concealed “Real American” style.

I suspect that a major part of Kotkin’s definition of a “Real American” is one who owns and drives a car and consumes petrol. He’s not so much worried about a BS “War on the Suburbs” as he is about a real and justifiable war on unsustainable consumerism, especially when it comes to products put out by the oil and auto industries.

And, it seems, by the real-estate industry. Check out this grave “concern”:

Ownership of a single-family home would become increasingly the province only of the highly affluent or those living on the fringes of second-tier American cities

Is this man even aware of what’s gone on in the economy over the past 2 years, and the core cause of it? Apparently he is, but of course he blames the sub-prime mortgage phenomenon on higher house prices (which is like blaming electronics store robberies on the high price of HDTVs).

Comment #14: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  01:22 PM

You wouldn’t get them as neighbours.  If you follow the European model, you’re going to get an urban core with high-priced condos, inhabited by the monied upper middle class and elites.

Yep, none of the people who do this bitching can afford that, so yes, we’d get them as neighbors.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  01:32 PM

In addition, the president’s stimulus—with its $8 billion allocation for high-speed rail and proposed giant increases in mass transit—offers little to anyone who lives outside a handful of large metropolitan cores.

But other than the tens of millions of city dwellers, their suburban neighbors, and all those mid-sized towns located along track routes, who really benefits from high speed rail anyway?

I’m reminded of the rather amusing statistic comparing US farmers to US World of Warcraft players - with each population clocking in at about 4 million.  One of these days, the editorial boards are going to wake up, check a calendar, and discover its not 1950 anymore.  That’s going to be a real shock.

Comment #16: Zifnab  on  02/02  at  01:35 PM

Found over at MotherJones.com:

Submitted by—————(not verified) on Mon Feb. 1, 2010 8:09 PM PST.

For the last two years Atrios has followed _every post_ on urban design/urban planning/long term growth planning with an update along the lines of “I understand many people like suburbs! I don’t want to force everyone to live in my urban hellhole! Many of them wouldn’t like it! People like different things!”.

I guess you missed all those posts?

No, read all of them. Atrios saying this is like the Prop 65 warning label on everything in California. Required, but totally meaningless. He wages an incessant war on all non-urban modes of existence. His wish is for a “reverse Pol Pot”, where all the non-urban folk would be driven into the cities and housed in demographically correct concrete towers.

Comment #17: ayutokamina  on  02/02  at  01:41 PM

PeterZeroOne’s description of the French suburbs is exactly a vision of things to come, for one reason: France as a country has some of the highest prices for gasoline that I’ve known. So they’re a bit ‘on the cutting edge’ of the coming trend. The French model is what will become of North America once oil stops being so (relatively) cheap and plentiful that the gentrified suburban model stays viable. Suburbs are economically unviable on the long term. While the exodus back from suburbs and exhurbs will be inevitable, what this will do is drive up the cost of living in the urban core, driving *out* minorities.

PZO obviously misses the forest for the trees because he does not understand that the reason why the up and coming moving to the burbs are immigrants and the ones moving to the exhurbs because of themselves moving on up are white is racism. Racism is (*mostly*) an economic phenomenon, as well as a cultural one.

Comment #18: BlackBloc  on  02/02  at  01:41 PM

I agree with most of this, except that in a lot of places (like San Francisco bay area, or New York City metropolitan area), a lot of people live in the suburbs not because they fear diversity, but because they can’t afford to live in the city.

I’d say that’s really only true in a small handful of first-tier cities - New York, Chicago, San Francisco, and Boston, for instance.  And even within all of those cities, there are still some really impoverished “undesirable” neighborhoods.

In most of the second-tier major cities, the opposite is still true - places like Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Detroit, St. Louis, Denver.

Comment #19: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  01:44 PM

If you follow the European model, you’re going to get an urban core with high-priced condos, inhabited by the monied upper middle class and elites.

This is already the case in major North American cities like Manhattan—it has nothing to do with a “European model,” and everything to do with good old-fashioned gentrification (often driven by conservative municipal administrations) and demographics (affluent Boomers settling into retirement, pricing younger people and renters out of the market). I’ve even seen this phenomenon operating in L.A., which doesn’t really have a single urban core.

So, they use the proceeds of the sale to buy an even bigger house in an exurb, especially since they will have much or all of their principle paid off. The result is that immigrants move in and white people move out and you perceive it as racism.

So the main motivation for moving out is getting a bigger home and a new mortgage (in recent years, one only made affordable by “liars’ loans”), even further away from work? Please.

This, by the way, is an illustration of Chicago School economic mindset at work: rational actors in the free market, behaving like good little consumerist cogs. No racist motivations to be seen here, nosiree: move along.

Comment #20: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  01:45 PM

Even there population sorts itself by race, just like in “colour blind” France.  Look at Paris.  You have lower-middle class French suburbs, which are completely separate from the immigrant suburbs.

A this problem is more due to France’s nationalist immigration policy, which creates multi-generational groups of impoverished non-citizen residents who understandably cluster together in cheap housing.

Guess which American political group wants most to replicate this disastrous European gastarbeiter scheme with regard to Mexican labour—if your answer was neoCon Republicans (as opposed to those evil colour-blind Francophile liberals), you get a cookie.

Comment #21: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  01:51 PM

I think it’s an oversimplification to say that suburbs have grown just because of white flight and that suburban residents are still driving long distances to the urban core just to avoid brown people.  I live in a suburb about 25 miles from downtown Dallas.  My particular suburb is quite diverse, despite the fact that it’s not anywhere near the urban core.  There are lots of other diverse suburbs in the DFW area, and not just inner ring suburbs either. The wealthier suburbs are whiter, regardless of location, and that includes inner ring suburbs like Highland Park, University Park, and Preston Hollow (home of George W. Bush). 

And while I am thrilled about the new light rail plans to connect the northwest suburbs to Dallas, I do not anticipate that it will benefit all that many people’s daily commutes.  Why?  Because most people who live here don’t actually work downtown.  For the past few decades suburban development hasn’t just meant the movement of houses, but the movement of jobs.  My husband works in the suburb we live in, which is why we live here.  10 minute commute.  Some of the major employment centers in north Texas are in Irving or Arlington or Plano or Addison or Richardson—NOT downtown Dallas.  Employers like it because the suburbs give them tax incentives to come, the land and rent are cheaper.  And efforts to connect these suburbs to each other are still woefully inadequate.  If suburb you live in happens to be down the DART line to the suburb you work in,  you might be ok if you can find transportation from the rail station to your job, which could be trickier.  I’m still enthusiastic about the increase in efforts to bring public transportation to suburbia.  I really wish they would advertise it as a way to go to cultural events and nightlife in downtown Dallas without having to worry about parking or designated drivers, and therefore keep it open later on weekends until the bars close.  That would be a dream come true.  And my town is really optimistic about being able to create high density development around the rail station, which would be awesome. 

Why I think people move to the far suburbs:
-Newer = better.  Everyone wants to live in the place with the latest and greatest development where all the buildings are shiny and new.  I have watched over the past decade as buildings are abandoned in my suburb, while trees are toppled, and fields bulldozed to bring brand new concrete wastelands in the town next door.  Also, everyone wants a new house because it’s much easier than trying to update an old house.
-Class.  Everyone brings up the race aspect but I think class is more important.  Most affluent people don’t want their children to associate with poor people of any race.  They want their kids to go to ‘good’ schools which means schools in more affluent neighborhoods.  Yes, these affluent neighborhoods are more white (but also, as of recently, more Asian as well), but they are perfectly happy to accept affluent Blacks and Hispanics into their circle. 
-Space.  Honestly in Texas, new houses have gotten ridiculous in size.  But for a family with children having a yard and enough bedrooms for everyone makes sense.  This is hard to find in an urban area.  I honestly don’t know how a family of 4 lives in an 800 sq foot house in Britain. 

I don’t think people move to the suburbs because they like strip malls and sprawl.  No one seems to like strip malls and sprawl, everyone complains and says they are ugly, but in a car bound society they are inevitable.  Instead of trying to move everyone back to the city, which is not going to happen, suburbs need to focus on development that is walkable and public transport-friendly.  People will walk and take public transport if you make it convenient.  If it takes 30 minutes to go by bus to a place that is a 5 minute drive?  They’ll be kicking and screaming.

Comment #22: rebelliousjezebel  on  02/02  at  01:56 PM

Anyone who wants to delude themselves into thinking this stuff isn’t about race should come spend some time in Metro Detroit.

Comment #23: stormhit  on  02/02  at  01:56 PM

Class.  Everyone brings up the race aspect but I think class is more important.

In the USA, the distinction between the two is mostly moot.

Comment #24: BlackBloc  on  02/02  at  02:03 PM

While the exodus back from suburbs and exhurbs will be inevitable, what this will do is drive up the cost of living in the urban core, driving *out* minorities.

That sort of gentrification is already happening, though probably not on the scale you are thinking of.

There’s a developer in St. Louis who has quietly bought up hundreds of properties in North St. Louis with various shell companies over the past decade and has intentionally allowed them to fall into total disrepair to help speed up the blighting of the neighborhoods.  He finally revealed his identity and his plans last year to the media, and he is now seeking $5.4 Billion in (largely taxpayer funded) financing to essentially bulldoze a huge chunk of North St. Louis (98% African-American and very poor) to build out 500 acres of land with upscale commercial and residential property, which will likely drive out most of the poor black people currently living there.  Where they will go, nobody knows.  The project is controversial because while everyone agrees that portion of the city currently resembles Sarajevo and really does need major investment in its infrastructure, nobody seems to want to address the underlying issues related to class inequality that have led to it becoming one of the most crime-ridden impoverished urban cores in the United States.  They just want to throw a bunch of money into building pretty new condos and rehabbing historic buildings so that a bunch of upwardly mobile white people can move in.

The NorthSide plan won’t do a damn thing to close the wealth gap between white St. Louisans and black St. Louisans.

Comment #25: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  02:07 PM

The French model is what will become of North America once oil stops being so (relatively) cheap and plentiful that the gentrified suburban model stays viable. Suburbs are economically unviable on the long term.

This is also a good point when combined with the demographic issue: unless you’re in a place like Boca Raton, you really don’t want to be a 70-year-old empty-nester living alone or with a spouse in a McMansion out in a gated community with mass transit that’s poor to non-existent, far from the grocery store or hospital.

Why I think people move to the far suburbs:

Now there are some valid real-world reasons beyond racism. However, they’re being challenged by the harsh realities of the economy (people are being forced by circumstance to learn that newer and/or bigger != better), by a recognition that there is indeed class warfare going on (as perpetrated by neoCons on the middle class—see school funding, to link up with your class example), and by resource scarcity (which makes those 2-hour solo commutes increasingly unaffordable).

Instead of trying to move everyone back to the city, which is not going to happen, suburbs need to focus on development that is walkable and public transport-friendly.

Agreed 100%. Unfortunately, the city fathers of these exurbs are more likely to resemble those of Colorado Springs. Forget fully operational public transport, you’ll be lucky to find a dedicated full-time municipal fire company.

There are suburbs that work in the way you describe, but they’re usually the sort of long-established and affluent pre-war communities that become thin on the ground west of Chicago. Exurbs like Victorville, CA aren’t easily retrofitted, because they were designed with a different purpose in mind.

Comment #26: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  02:11 PM

I live in the suburbs in Salt Lake City. The TRAX rail system here has been a life saver for me. How is a rail system useless for suburbanites when it runs through the suburbs? Does Utah just have a different attitude about rail systems? The only negative things I hear about TRAX is that sometimes it is too crowded.

Comment #27: kiki  on  02/02  at  02:17 PM

He wages an incessant war on all non-urban modes of existence. His wish is for a “reverse Pol Pot”, where all the non-urban folk would be driven into the cities and housed in demographically correct concrete towers.

If by “war” you mean “series of blog posts” and by “driven into the cities” you mean, “no longer financially subsidized to live in the suburbs” then you might be getting closer to the mark.  I do so love hearing about how cutting a subsidy or normalizing the cost of a luxury suddenly makes you a murderous fascist dictator, though.

Remind me again how Atrios is calling for the execution of opposition members and the imprisonment of rival party leaders.  Or what military rank he possesses with which to conduct his coup.  :-p

Indeed, if I remember the old Cambodian revolutionary war cry correctly, it was “SUPERTRAIN!  SUPERTRAIN!  SUPERTRAIN!”  Are we sure Atrios and Pol Pot aren’t related?

Comment #28: Zifnab  on  02/02  at  02:19 PM

Class.  Everyone brings up the race aspect but I think class is more important.

In the USA, the distinction between the two is mostly moot.

Close, but not precisely.  People who want to say that things here are strictly about class want to ignore the fairly obvious correlation that exists between race and class, but there is at least some degree of distinction, as there are in fact a ton of poor white people in America.  Appalachia, for instance, is almost entirely white, and almost entirely below the poverty line.  And the funny thing about Reaganites who seem to believe that only African-Americans benefit from welfare and WIC programs is the fact that most beneficiaries of these programs are white.  Obviously, as a percentage of the total populations, African-Americans recieve far more from these programs than do white people, which does demonstrate just how closely race and class are linked.  If you are a white American, there’s a decent chance that you may be poor; if you are a black American, by overwhelming odds, you are almost certain to be poor.

And even though poor white Americans suffer many of the same struggles as poor black Americans, it is far easier for a poor white American to emerge from their impoverished status as they do not face the racism faced by poor black Americans.  Simply put, being poor sucks no matter what race you are, but your odds of escaping poverty are significantly greater if you are white than if you are black - a poor white person can “fake it” and be accepted easier by middle and upper-middle class people (who are overwhelmingly white) than can a poor black person.

As a matter of fact, a poor white person can often find more acceptance among middle class and upper-middle class white people than can a middle class or upper-middle class black person.  An upper-middle class childhood friend of mine once brought home a poor white guy she was dating, and her snooty pretentious parents, while not thrilled, didn’t make too much of a fuss about it.  A year later, she was dating a black guy - whose parents were both lawyers and had a higher net worth than her parents - but her parents had a total meltdown.  They were more bothered by her dating a well-off black guy than they were by her dating a poor white guy.

I realize that’s just anecdata, but that’s one instance in which I saw firsthand race trumping class in terms of the level of disdain expressed by well-off white people.

Comment #29: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  02:31 PM

This is already the case in major North American cities like Manhattan

There is no such city as Manhattan.

I know you know that, but it’s a pet peeve of mine… Amanda is every bit as much of a NYC resident as is someone living on the Upper West Side, even though she doesn’t live on the most expensive island in America.  As are people living in Rockaway and people living on Staten Island.

Comment #30: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  02:37 PM

“So the main motivation for moving out is getting a bigger home and a new mortgage (in recent years, one only made affordable by “liars’ loans”), even further away from work? Please. ... No racist motivations to be seen here, nosiree: move along.”


Is it really more likely that *everyone* who moves from a city to a suburb is mainly motivated by race?  Is it?

Comment #31: anoNY  on  02/02  at  02:38 PM

I don’t think people move to the suburbs because they like strip malls and sprawl.  No one seems to like strip malls and sprawl, everyone complains and says they are ugly, but in a car bound society they are inevitable.  Instead of trying to move everyone back to the city, which is not going to happen, suburbs need to focus on development that is walkable and public transport-friendly.

Which is to say, turning them into cities.

Comment #32: Dan  on  02/02  at  02:41 PM

Is it really more likely that *everyone* who moves from a city to a suburb is mainly motivated by race?  Is it?

Reading comprehension fail.  The original post very specifically said that this is not the case.  Take your straw men elsewhere, where they won’t be so obvious to literate people.

Comment #33: bananacat  on  02/02  at  02:45 PM

As someone who telecommutes, I occasionally have to take “heavy rail” (no, I’m not a hobo) in to see clients and the such. It’s a long trip, but with a 3G card, I’m able to turn the train into my office. So I travel (fairly cheaply, in fact) and work, there’s a little cafe car on the train that serves beer if I’m so inclined (not that I am). I don’t have to worry about traffic, I don’t have to worry about security and such, I just hop on/hop off.

People who start using light rail for commuting generally really enjoy it. The “being held to a timetable” issue generally isn’t as horrible as all that, and being able to read or nap on your way to and from work is way more of a benefit than the imagined detriment of having to be at the station at a particular time.

Comment #34: Mighty Ponygirl  on  02/02  at  02:52 PM

I live in the suburbs in Salt Lake City. The TRAX rail system here has been a life saver for me. How is a rail system useless for suburbanites when it runs through the suburbs? Does Utah just have a different attitude about rail systems? The only negative things I hear about TRAX is that sometimes it is too crowded.

As I understand it, Utah is overwhelmingly white, even the SLC metropolitan area.

One of the biggest complaints from conservatives to light rail expansion in more diverse metropolitan areas is that it allows the carless people (many of whom are black) to have easier access to predominantly white municipalities.

We have a fairly large light rail system here (46 miles of track on 2 lines, 9th busiest ridership in the US), but it could really be so much better than it is.  Unfortunately, many white people in white suburbs fight hard to keep MetroLink from expanding into their communities, becuse they are scared that if Metro runs through their whitopia, “those people” (African-Americans) may show up in their little racist hamlets.

Comment #35: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  02:54 PM

To further expound on the St. Louis situation, people in St. Charles County(the western suburb/exurb that DTG was talking about) were not shy about expressing the real reason why they voted against Metrolink expansion. Apparently, they were afraid that black criminals would get on the trains in East St. Louis, ride the train 30 miles to their houses, rape their wives, steal their teevees, and ride the train back to East St. Louis. Presumably while menacing all the white passengers for the entire round trip. People’s feelings about this where not exactly a secret.

And PeterzeroOne, you’ve got to be kidding, right? I’m sure most of us have had an aquaintance tell us that “I won’t be the last white guy in the neighborhood”, in other words, when the second or third black family moves in, they sell their house at fire sale prices and run for the hills. And there is a huge difference between perceptions of black people and perceptions of immigrants moving into your community. In St. Louis, if you can’t get gays to move into your community, the next best thing is to lure the Bosnians in. White, and White-ish immigrants are seen as stabilizing for a community(around here, at least.  My sister’s 90 year old 800 square foot house doubled in value after the Bosnians started moving into her area.

Comment #36: Bruce from Missouri  on  02/02  at  02:55 PM

But other than the tens of millions of city dwellers, their suburban neighbors, and all those mid-sized towns located along track routes, who really benefits from high speed rail anyway?

When I lived in Austin, I have to say I was really excited that one of the proposed routes was through Houston, through Austin, and up through Midland and El Paso.  That would have meant no more long drives home from Christmas. 

akuy, again, your rant makes it startlingly clear that folks like Atrios really don’t want you as a neighbor.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  02:57 PM

***Unfortunately, many white people in white suburbs fight hard to keep MetroLink from expanding into their communities, becuse they are scared that if Metro runs through their whitopia, “those people” (African-Americans) may show up in their little racist hamlets. ***

Which is silly, because there have been black people in St. Charles for at least 30 years…but you’re right, that’s exactly what’s going on.

Comment #38: Bruce from Missouri  on  02/02  at  02:58 PM

Is it really more likely that *everyone* who moves from a city to a suburb is mainly motivated by race?  Is it?

I don’t recall anybody here ever saying that “everyone” who moves to the ‘burbs is a racist, or anything remotely close to it.

But to acknowledge that there are non-racists living in the suburbs and exurbs does not negate the fact that many of these communities came into existence largely as a means for white people to escape the increasing ethnic diversity of urban areas.

Comment #39: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  02:58 PM

I think it’s an oversimplification to say that suburbs have grown just because of white flight and that suburban residents are still driving long distances to the urban core just to avoid brown people.  I live in a suburb about 25 miles from downtown Dallas.  My particular suburb is quite diverse, despite the fact that it’s not anywhere near the urban core.

I’ll bet the history of it would surprise you, if it was formed as a suburb.  It was probably mostly white, and now it’s shifting as white residents leave as soon as non-white residents move in.

Comment #40: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  02:59 PM

Is it really more likely that *everyone* who moves from a city to a suburb is mainly motivated by race?  Is it?

I’m not the one making grand sweeping statements about everyone acting like a rational actor (i.e. one who automatically thinks bigger+newer = better) in the free market place. I’m just pointing out that racist motivations (which, as others have pointed out, have a twisted relationship with class motivations) are a strong motivating factor—one which influences a decision that is often unsustainable and works against one’s own economic self-interests.

Also, PeterZeroOne wasn’t discussing moving from a city to a suburb, but from a suburb that’s changing racially or ethnically to a new one that’s further out and more expensive.

In other words, my question to you would be: is it really more likely that a given person who moves from one suburb to a farther, less affordable suburb isn’t at least partially motivated by race (or the class assumptions for which it serves as a blind)?

Comment #41: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  02:59 PM

Living in suburban OC wasn’t our first choice. We are beach people and wanted to live near our families in downtown Huntington Beach, but couldn’t afford to. Interestingly, the neighborhood we bought in was cheaper & the houses were bigger (ours is a good deal larger than my in-laws, probably 400 sq feet larger). Now after the real estate craziness, everything is reversed & we couldn’t afford to live in our own neighborhood (if we bought now. we originally purchased in 98).

Comment #42: Mark  on  02/02  at  03:00 PM

There is no such city as Manhattan.

Ok, fine, it’s a borough. I use the generic “city” as a synonym for the urban cores we’re discussing (which Manhattan is for NYC) because most people don’t know the local municipal terminology, and because I saw this phenomenon more when I lived in Manhattan during the Giuliani years.

Outer borough neighbourhoods like Park Slope were also gentrifying at that point, but they weren’t being turned into urban playgrounds for retirees, the wealthy and tourists like Manhattan was (or other urban cores were and are).

Comment #43: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  03:03 PM

In St. Louis, if you can’t get gays to move into your community, the next best thing is to lure the Bosnians in. White, and White-ish immigrants are seen as stabilizing for a community(around here, at least.  My sister’s 90 year old 800 square foot house doubled in value after the Bosnians started moving into her area.

So, so true… the most desirable properties for the house flippers a few years ago were in Bosnian neighborhoods like Bevo Mill, and “gayborhoods” like Tower Grove.  I knew a guy who bought a few houses in the late 1990s in the Grove and basically just sat on them for about five years, doing no substantial rehab to any of them, just did the bare maintenance, and then turned around and doubled his money in the early 2000s.

Comment #44: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  03:06 PM

So, they use the proceeds of the sale to buy an even bigger house in an exurb, especially since they will have much or all of their principle paid off.  The result is that immigrants move in and white people move out and you perceive it as racism.

Yeah.  No neighbors ever have a bitch session about how so-and-so just sold to A BLACK FAMILY!!!! And then the rest of them don’t start selling, too.

That never happens.  It’s just a process of everyone moving up, and since “immigrants” are a step or two lower, it just takes them a little longer to work their way up.  They have to buy from the white people, who just happen, en masse, to be ready to move to the next level.

How long before they catch up?  There is a limit to how far up we can expect the majority of white people to go, so when will they hit that point?  Integration will just happen, then, as immigrants get ready to move up, and white people can just move “over”. 

When’s that going to happen?

Comment #45: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  02/02  at  03:10 PM

Which is silly, because there have been black people in St. Charles for at least 30 years…but you’re right, that’s exactly what’s going on.

True, but that’s precisely why O’Fallon exploded in population and places like Winghaven and New Town started popping up - as old St. Charles (City of St. Charles) became more and more ethnically diverse, white flight to further exurbs started booming.

Comment #46: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  03:10 PM

I don’t recall anybody here ever saying that “everyone” who moves to the ‘burbs is a racist, or anything remotely close to it.

Well, you’re not in the habit of mistaking me and other commenters for the scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz.

But to acknowledge that there are non-racists living in the suburbs and exurbs does not negate the fact that many of these communities came into existence largely as a means for white people to escape the increasing ethnic diversity of urban areas.

In certain parts of the country, the new suburbs were designed almost explicitly as sundown towns. And throughout the country during that same period formal and informal restictive homeowners’ covenants were often put in place to keep out Jews and other “undesirable elements” from moving in.

Finally, there was the charming practise of “blockbusting,” which started in urban cores and radiated out to the suburbs and exurbs over the decades.

But no, no racism involved in these decisions to move. Not a factor at all!

Comment #47: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  03:12 PM

Class.  Everyone brings up the race aspect but I think class is more important.

Hitting the panic button on the race issue is especially disturbing when you’re talking about the urban vs. suburban stuff.  There is a lot of white poverty, but it’s often more rural than urban.  Well-off white people aren’t running away from poor white rural areas; on the contrary, they’re converting them to suburbs and pricing people out of their homes.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  03:13 PM

Meant to mention above that we live 16 miles from our jobs and can carpool. I would love to be able to access light rail for commuting, but the closest station to my house is halfway to work and the closest station to the office is 3 miles away.

Comment #49: Mark  on  02/02  at  03:14 PM

From the very first paragraph of the post:

That’s not the same thing as suggesting everyone who lives in the suburbs is a racist, or that was their motivation.

And from a troll:

Is it really more likely that *everyone* who moves from a city to a suburb is mainly motivated by race?  Is it?

Be honest, did you actually read the post?  Wtf is wrong with you?  At this level of stupidity, I’m amazed that you managed to turn your computer on and type words on your keyboard.

Comment #50: bananacat  on  02/02  at  03:22 PM

In certain parts of the country, the new suburbs were designed almost explicitly as sundown towns. And throughout the country during that same period formal and informal restictive homeowners’ covenants were often put in place to keep out Jews and other “undesirable elements” from moving in.

The house Dubya bought in the Dallas suburbs is in exactly one of those communities.  The “whites only” covenant wasn’t stricken until 2001 in Preston Hollow, but that’s how that community was started when it was first developed.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/bush-move-formerly-whites-only-neighborhood

Comment #51: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  03:24 PM

One reason urban sprawl is a big problem is because it eats up agricultural land.

Comment #52: Entomologista  on  02/02  at  03:24 PM

@35

Utah is not a white wash state. We have a very large latino population. And downtown SLC is fairly diverse.

Comment #53: kiki  on  02/02  at  03:25 PM

Wtf is wrong with you?  At this level of stupidity, I’m amazed that you managed to turn your computer on and type words on your keyboard.

He thinks he’s still at the podium of the 10th grade debate club championships, which is the only place you can get away with that kind of BS (as long as you affect a calm and reasonable demeanour). It’s a sad delusion shared by most conservative trolls and pundits.

Comment #54: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  03:27 PM

Except that some of the biggest beneficiaries of public transit by rail are…suburbanites

Congrats,  Amanda, have you discovered the reason light rail makes absolutely no sense in all but a few very dense urban areas. It almost always ends up servicing low-density areas (you know, the ones populated with suburbanites) that are selected for political reasons and graft. Because these systems never come close to covering their operating costs - let alone their capital costs- it ends up as a massive taxpayer subsidy (sometimes to the tune of upwards of $20 per ride once you include operating cost, capital cost and debt service) to a relatively tiny number of frequent users. These users are usually pretty well off and politically relevant, as that’s how they make sure stations get built in their neck of the woods.

The really horrible thing about light rail is that is kills other transit options. As the shiny new train bleeds ever more money, transit agencies typically respond by slashing routes and raising fairs on other transit modes. This mostly means buses, which are used extensively by the less well-off. But buses do not stroke the egos of politicians, or impress progressives as Great Works of Civic Pride, so they get cut. It’s not at all unusual for total transit ridership to actually fall after a city has built one of these boondoggles, and proceeds to cannibalize other transit resources to sustain it.

Comment #55: CTD  on  02/02  at  03:27 PM

“I agree with most of this, except that in a lot of places (like San Francisco bay area, or New York City metropolitan area), a lot of people live in the suburbs not because they fear diversity, but because they can’t afford to live in the city.  You get more for your money (at least in terms of absolute square footage) out in the boonies.”


Perhaps a part of the problem is that so many of us have internalized the idea that we need a big house and yard to live ‘decently’ in this society, that more is more (in terms of space much more than time spent commuting, etc).

Comment #56: motochica  on  02/02  at  03:28 PM

I always took white flight as a sort of a given like gravity, until I gave my mom the book in search of whitopia for christmas.  I thought she would find it interesting as my parents had just moved to St George Utah, one of the Whitopias featured in the book.  She started reading it and is still pissed off at me.  I think she thought I was calling her a racist, the thing is growing up we moved three times each time to a further out suburb and a whiter school district. 
Even though my parents are life long Democrats and consider themselves very progressive, they are very much into living in light complected areas but they really don’t want to admit it.  I think this disconnect drives a lot of the urban suburban discussion.

Comment #57: John Rove  on  02/02  at  03:32 PM

The thread has moved away from this, but I just have to say: they’re objecting to the idea of putting tolls on major highways?  Seriously?  Try sending them to look at what Toronto offers: you can drive the 401 through the city, dealing with traffic congestion, construction (it’s always under construction somewhere along that stretch) and some areas where the surfacing is no better than on lower-traffic routes.  But there are no charges on it, and it’s there, for absolutely anyone to use.  Or, if you’re willing to pay the toll, you take a quick little sidetrip up to the 407, drive under the cameras, and zoom along on wide, high-quality concrete surfaces with (because it’s tolled) comparatively little congestion, and much rarer slow-ups from construction/repairs.  Cameras record when you leave, and you’re billed by your license plate.  Or, if you have one, by the transponder, which gives you a bit of a discount for frequent users. It’s lovely and practical and a choice.  One which pretty much pays for itself, too.

Then again, up here in Canada, nobody screams about socialist-liberal-satanists-whatevers when somebody proposes putting more money into transit.  We grouse about transit strikes and whine that the bus routes make no sense because they don’t change them more than once a year, or that transit needs to run later, instead.  And sometimes that CNRail and VIARail do not share as well as we’d like, but that’s mostly people who take the train between cities a lot.  Most of us, living in suburbs, would like to see more public transit, and we get very testy when it’s taken away.

Comment #58: fluffster  on  02/02  at  04:04 PM

Given that the article starts with:

Scott Brown’s huge upset victory by 5 percent in Massachusetts, which supported Obama by 26 percentage points in 2008, largely was propelled by a wave of support from middle-income suburbs all around Boston.

which is not true , why exactly am I supposed to take what he says seriously? What he really means are the exurbs and central MA (Coakley won the western part of the state, probably because that’s where she’s from).

And yet I’ll still talk about it. First, notice he never talks about the utter contempt suburbanites had for the cities when the interstate highway system was being built. Whole viable and vital urban neighborhoods were destroyed so that it was easier for suburbanites to drive into the city. He also seems to forget that the first round of suburbs came about because of mass transit—so if many suburbs only exist because of mass transit, how exactly does it not benefit them? Looking at these older suburbs, you also see that his problem with densification is overblown. If you look at all communities up until, mostly, after WW II, you’ll see that they were all set up like mini cities: a core that was walkable and had most of the people and commerce surrounded by lower density (for farms and the like). This is why light rail is preferable to buses: when a new rail station is built, a core of commerce and residents tends to grow up around it.

CTD, travel by car is also supported by massive subsidies.

motochica, I would have trouble affording a 300 square foot condo in most of Boston so I live outside the city (and commute by bus or train). If I could afford a 500 square foot place, I’d move back in an instant.

Comment #59: JohnL  on  02/02  at  04:06 PM

“I’ll bet the history of it would surprise you, if it was formed as a suburb.  It was probably mostly white, and now it’s shifting as white residents leave as soon as non-white residents move in. “

How can you possibly have non-white residents moving in without white residents moving out?  Do you magically duplicate a house in a parallel universe at the moment the non-white family moves in? If you had a mostly white neighbourhood, and the number of houses stays constant, then you cannot possibly have non-whites moving in without whites leaving. 

“Perhaps a part of the problem is that so many of us have internalized the idea that we need a big house and yard to live ‘decently’ in this society, that more is more (in terms of space much more than time spent commuting, etc). “

Yep, in the end it’s just about materialism.  So why the whole fake outrage over the perceived racism?  I’ve had a chance to think about it for a while, and I think I get it now.  Racism isn’t just the United States’ first sin, it’s the only sin there is.  In other words, calling someone greedy or materialistic doesn’t resonate.  As a people I think Americans are ok with inequality of outcome so long as there is an equality of opportunity.  So the only way to decry the materialism of upper middle class whites is to label it as racist.

Comment #60: PeterZeroOne  on  02/02  at  04:10 PM

People who start using light rail for commuting generally really enjoy it.

Agree 100%.  I used to commute from the west suburbs into Chicago for work everyday.  I now live in rural Wisconsin and drive 75 miles.  I would give up my car tomorrow if they opened a rail line between the towns in which I live and work.

Having lived in a large suburban area, I really don’t understand the appeal.  From my experience, it was basically like getting all the disadvantages of both city and rural life, with few of the advantages, at a relatively high cost.

Comment #61: Samurai Sam  on  02/02  at  04:10 PM

Most urban horror stories involving the residents of suburbia involve two elements: 1) suburbanite comes into urban area and 2) throws a fit/acts like an ass because we don’t act like they do in the suburbs.  Kotkin’s assumption that we’re so hateful to these folks that we want to frog march them in to our neighborhoods doesn’t pass the smell test.

In my experience, the people like this are visiting on the weekend (“bridge and tunnel crowd”).  My impression of gentrifiers, who buy into a neighborhood and then try to change everything about it (see “Lounge Ax, Lincoln Park” c. 2000) is that they’re not necessarily coming from the suburbs (at least not directly; maybe they were raised there).

The reality is that more density isn’t desired by urbanites, either, because our housing prices are high enough, thank you very much.

Which is why, like it or not, city dwellers should be for denser housing (i.e., high rises).  Of course, that has it’s own racist history (Cabrini Green, etc.), but I think otherwise Parisification is in our future, despite better paths to citizenship than France’s.

DTG, please don’t remind me that Staten Island is part of NYC. tongue laugh

Comment #62: NY Expat  on  02/02  at  04:11 PM

Everyone brings up the race aspect but I think class is more important.  Most affluent people don’t want their children to associate with poor people of any race.  They want their kids to go to ‘good’ schools which means schools in more affluent neighborhoods.  Yes, these affluent neighborhoods are more white (but also, as of recently, more Asian as well), but they are perfectly happy to accept affluent Blacks and Hispanics into their circle.

I’d agree that there isn’t a really meaningful class/race distinction to be made here.

Being okay with certain members of a particular race does not mean you’re not racist (the “some of my best friends are” phenomenon).  Furthermore, even if individual members of a group aren’t consciously motivated by race (and indeed, I doubt most of them are), the phenomenon can still be racist. 

ISTR reading that “white flight” usually only starts to happen when the percentage of black people in a neighbourhood rises above a certain level.  The concept of the “tipping point” derives from this.

Comment #63: killjoy  on  02/02  at  04:12 PM

School quality is a big aspect of this.  For some reason, the governing authorities of large urban areas seem to be content with unsafe and dilapidated schools, then wonder why people move out when they have kids. 

Don’t get me wrong—“white flight” is very real.  But if you look at the dropout rates for the average, say, Chicago Public School, you could see why a very committed Progressive who wants a happy and interesting life would at least hit the inner ring of suburbs.

Comment #64: Punditus Maximus  on  02/02  at  04:13 PM

I can’t afford to live (and own) in my racially diverse neighborhood.  So I’m moving to a town that happens to be 97% white.  It’ll be really weird for awhile, and I’ll miss the Japanese, Chinese, and Indian markets within walking distance.  The high-class produce market nearby will probably be good for my waistline, though.

Although, it was really weird shopping at the Korean market and being taller than everyone or being the only white person there; or being comfortable at the Vietnamese and Mexican markets because they’re most like the markets I grew up with, having a real butcher and fish counter, while they couldn’t actually understand me all that well.  But then again, I’m terrible at understanding accents or over noise, so… I don’t blame them. 

Still, I always want to tell people, “no, I’m not just trying your culture.  I really do eat this stuff and have all my life.”

Although, the little kid across the street from our new house isn’t white, actually he’s a bit darker than 9/10 of the kids in our apartments.  So that’ll blunt the image of a white neighborhood.

Mostly we’re moving to live amongst trees and nearer to the beach and farms.

Comment #65: Crissa  on  02/02  at  04:20 PM

Just to add another perspective to the conversation - when many families are looking for a new house one qualifier always appears at or near the top of their lists - “good schools.”  What makes a good school?  Obviously a good property tax base - which means relatively high property values…I’m positive (but do not have direct evidence, naturally) that there’s an element of racism/classism embedded in the concept, especially as families move around chasing those excellent school districts.  Call it “unconscious racism/classism” if you prefer, to which even liberals are susceptible, because prioritizing good school districts naturally skews the choice into a district which is well-funded, therefore affulent, and therefore mostly white and middle class. 

Furthermore, even in-flight back to the upscale gentrified urban environments has this component, because I’m sure there’s childless couples which re-emigrate to the suburbs under the rubric of “good schools” once they have children, or on the other hand said gentrifiers are the motivation of inner-city charter/voucher or private schools within a “decaying” school district.

I’m sure lots of families has made the “yes, we have to spend two hours a day on our commute, but little Timmy has a good school” decision rather than stay closer to their work and live in a “substandard” school district, contributing to the decline of said school district as tax money and diversity of student attendance decreases.

Comment #66: tannenburg  on  02/02  at  04:22 PM

How can you possibly have non-white residents moving in without white residents moving out?

It’s called a diverse neighbourhood—some whites leave, some stay. Sometimes (this’ll blow your mind) a white homeowner will sell to another white, even as his neighbour sells to immigrants.

helen w. h. at #2 describes a suburban neighbourhood that is diverse. Such things exist. So do the white-flight neighbourhoods which you’re pretending don’t exist despite all historical evidence to the contrary.

Comment #67: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  04:23 PM

***So, so true… the most desirable properties for the house flippers a few years ago were in Bosnian neighborhoods like Bevo Mill***

Ding ding ding… right on the first try—-I could almost hit Bevo Mill with a rock from her house…my sister moved there to be close to work, but it was a neighborhood considered to be on the downhill slide in 1992. At $47,000, it was almost ghetto pricing, but bring in the Bosnians, and it’s worth almost $100,000 now. If the same amount of black people had moved in(of similar economic class), the white flight would have been so bad as to make the house virtually unsellable.

Comment #68: Bruce from Missouri  on  02/02  at  04:25 PM

Then again, up here in Canada, nobody screams about socialist-liberal-satanists-whatevers when somebody proposes putting more money into transit.

Oh, I wish that were true, I really do.  And it’s true, the “satanist” thing you wouldn’t get because Canada doesn’t have a strong religious right. 

HOWEVER, last I checked, Toronto had one of the most underfunded transit systems in North America.  Transit improvements have not kept pace with city growth; service in the downtown business core, in particular, is running at pretty much capacity and it’s stuffed.  In the ‘90s, improvements either didn’t happen (the Harris Tories slashed the TTC budget) or they were doled out as political rewards (the Sheppard subway line, which sits empty most of the day, but which is located in Mel Lastman territory, as opposed to in a denser part of town where it might get more use). 

Other cities I’ve been to have decent service in the city core but bad service everywhere else; the worst place I’ve seen (aside from tiny towns which can’t really be expected to sustain transit) was Fredericton, NB, where the city government website make it very clear that they consider the transit to be ONLY useful for people who don’t have cars, and people who don’t have cars are of very little value to them.  Ergo, the transit system is even crappier than you’d expect in a city of 50,000 people.  Almost no bus shelters, 2-hour wait times much of the day, impractical routes, popular destinations go unserviced, etc.

There’s plenty of anti-transit sentiment in this country.

Comment #69: killjoy  on  02/02  at  04:30 PM

One important thing to recognize is that density and walkability are not necessarily connected in the US. Go out to Tyson’s Corner in northern virginia, for example, and you’ll see piles of high-rise residential buildings. Where anyone trying to get to the nearest store would have to cross 6-12 lanes of traffic with no walk lights. We would be doing a great job if we just fixed of the medium-density (all those 3-6-story apartment complexes in the middle of nowhere) suburban and exurban sites where it’s impossible to walk safely from your front door to anywhere but your car.

Comment #70: paul  on  02/02  at  04:30 PM

Which is why, like it or not, city dwellers should be for denser housing (i.e., high rises).  Of course, that has it’s own racist history (Cabrini Green, etc.)

Indeed.  One of the most studied urban housing project failures in U.S. history was Pruitt-Igoe in St. Louis, designed by Minoru Yamasaki - the architect whose most famous project was the World Trade Center.  Pruitt-Igoe consisted of 33 eleven story buildings that opened in 1954 and were demolished less than 20 years later in 1972 - sometimes referred to by architectural historians as “the day modern architecture died”.  It was first opened in the 1950s as two separate racially segregated complexes, Pruitt and Igoe, but once the courts mandated desegregation of all public housing, all of the white tenants fled and the place turned into a warzone.

Comment #71: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  04:31 PM

Most affluent people don’t want their children to associate with poor people of any race. 

America’s poor safety net, precarious nature of one’s economic status, and stark income inequality means that parents are going to be much more upset and agitated about the idea of their children “falling in with the poor.” so the first thing a middle/upper middle class family is going to do when they get the resources is find a way to move someplace where the social/economic position they want for themselves and their children can be protected.

Comment #72: Tyro  on  02/02  at  04:38 PM

I should clarify re Canada: The residents of Toronto’s outer suburbs are extremely hostile to transit.  Extremely.  They not only don’t want Toronto to have it, they don’t want to have it themselves.  If you read about Vaughan, for example, or Markham…they want their roads widened.  They love their SUVs.  They don’t want transit.

School quality is a big aspect of this.  For some reason, the governing authorities of large urban areas seem to be content with unsafe and dilapidated schools, then wonder why people move out when they have kids.

But American schools are funded by the local tax base, right?  So poor areas have to run cheaper schools, which means worse maintenance, lower-paid teachers, fewer supplies, etc.  Jonathan Kozol’s books on that subject are excellent.

Although, it was really weird shopping at the Korean market and being taller than everyone or being the only white person there; or being comfortable at the Vietnamese and Mexican markets because they’re most like the markets I grew up with, having a real butcher and fish counter, while they couldn’t actually understand me all that well.

You know, I can’t imagine wanting to avoid that experience.  Yes, I feel self-conscious when I’m the only white person in a room full of, say, Chinese people, but in North America, immigrants and people of colour deal with being the “only” all the time.  Why shouldn’t I deal with it occasionally?

Comment #73: killjoy  on  02/02  at  04:46 PM

PM, if Chicago is anything like Boston, the reason for the problems with city schools was explicitly due to racism. The neighborhoods in Boston traditionally have been segregated, as were the schools. When judges said that this was illegal (which brought forced busing), there was immediate white flight into the suburbs and private schools.

Also, density is not the same as saying we should build high rises. The west end in Boston was demolished and the high rises of Charles River Place were built in its place—there are a lot fewer people in the area now (in fact, Boston was much more dense in the 1950s when there were almost no high rises).

Comment #74: JohnL  on  02/02  at  04:46 PM

It doesn’t just stop with good schools though. Where I live, half of the people I know live in suburban neighborhoods that are over 85% white and the other half live in urban/suburban neighborhoods that are very diverse. The difference is the first group got either a huge amount of cash for a down payment or receives monthly rent subsidies from their parents. The rest of us (the ones who Reaganites hate to admit are the ones really “pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps”) live in the nicest areas we can afford to.

Comment #75: DC Fem  on  02/02  at  04:47 PM

One of the most studied urban housing project failures in U.S. history was Pruitt-Igoe in St. Louis, designed by Minoru Yamasaki - the architect whose most famous project was the World Trade Center.

And who better to design high-rises than an acrophobic. There’s a reason why the WTC windows were so narrow. Buildings designed by neurotics and by architects who don’t give consideration to the actual human beings who’ll be using the building tend to have weird and negative effects on those human beings.

On the plus side, at least the destruction of Pruitt-Igoe inspired a great piece of modern music.

All of which is to agree that it’s not high-rises in and of themselves that are bad—the problem is more with bad design and cheap materials and shoddy construction, and with those who think that bad design and cheap materials and shoddy construction is all that the poor and minorities deserve.

Comment #76: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  04:48 PM

School quality is a big aspect of this.  For some reason, the governing authorities of large urban areas seem to be content with unsafe and dilapidated schools, then wonder why people move out when they have kids. 

Don’t get me wrong—“white flight” is very real.  But if you look at the dropout rates for the average, say, Chicago Public School, you could see why a very committed Progressive who wants a happy and interesting life would at least hit the inner ring of suburbs.

True enough, but it still ties into the big picture - many urban school systems are so shitty because school systems are funded by local tax revenues.  When enough middle and upper-middle class citizens (who happen to be mostly white) leave the cities, it depletes the tax base, and urban school systems are forced to make huge budget cuts, and the quality of the education offered is sacrificed.  Many of the urban residents left behind in the cities are often stuck sending their kids to these crappy schools, because neocons have gotten bussing programs shut down and many poor city residents can’t afford private schools.  These kids then don’t get a decent education, and then don’t get into college, and then don’t manage to break free from the cycle of poverty they’ve been forced into.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

By the way, I do NOT favor vouchers so that we can send these kids to Christian schools to have them indoctrinated into conservative ideology.  I favor a system that is far more egalitarian in the allocation of funds for various public school systems.  St. Louis City has one of the worst public school systems in the United States.  And yet, within 10 miles of the city limits, there are two suburban public school systems - Clayton and Ladue - that rank among the nation’s best.  And all of this is because people like the Busch family (of Anheuser-Busch fame) live in Ladue and pay property taxes there, and dirt poor people live in the city and pay their property taxes here.  I would very much like to nationalize our public education funding so that no matter where a child lives, be it a poor urban area, a wealthy suburb, or a poor rural community - they all have equal access to the same quality of public education, regardless of how much money their parents make.

Comment #77: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  04:51 PM

But American schools are funded by the local tax base, right?  So poor areas have to run cheaper schools, which means worse maintenance, lower-paid teachers, fewer supplies, etc.

It’s not even that they’re poor areas, it’s that the income levels in a given urban school district tend to be more diverse than in a given suburb’s.

This is one reason that American schools should be funded by contributions to a state-level pool, which would be re-distributed equitably back to the local district level on a per-capita basis. That they aren’t speaks volumes about the American approach to education.

Comment #78: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  04:57 PM

Rather than being honest and saying “we don’t black people to have easy access to our city”, they pretended that the issue was aesthetic, that they didn’t want “ugly rail lines” cutting through their posh neighborhoods with million dollar homes.

I grew up in San Francisco and recently moved back to the Bay Area. This is the exact same argument people in Marin County (north of the Golden Gate Bridge) have been making so they can keep BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) trains out. The same argument for 25 years. Frankly, the language they use isn’t even coded well. The tone always screams NO MINORITIES OR IMMIGRANTS! I’m doubtful that we’ll ever have someone who will have the guts to call them on their bullshit aesthetic arguments. The rest of the Bay Area handles the “ugly” BART lines, which by the way are mostly underground, as a convenience. I’m tired of Marin County residents being so precious about their enclaves.

Comment #79: shakahi  on  02/02  at  05:03 PM

Killjoy @#63:
The concept of tipping point is applicable to this, it does not derive from it.  Tipping point in this case is a mathematical/physical science phenom applied to a sociological system.

Comment #80: helen w. h.  on  02/02  at  05:08 PM

Just wanted to chime in quickly re: cost of living in a city. I live in a suburb of Washington DC, about 20 minutes outside the Beltway. Living in DC or even particularly near it was not an option for us. Even condemned buildings in DC proper go for a million bucks. (That’s not a joke; there was actually a property that sold for that much simply because of its coveted location.) Even many townhouses in Alexandria and the areas close by would possibly be out of our price range. Big cities are mind-blowingly expensive. And hubby and I aren’t exactly poor.  If I had my druthers I’d be living right in the middle of the action, especially because I am big highway-phobic. 

Anyway, the neighborhood we live in is almost utopian in its diversity. We’re like a goddamn Bennetton ad…and I’m quite happy being here. It’s a lovely neighborhood and everybody gets along famously.

That being said, I absolutely do believe white flight exists..and I find that incredibly distressing.

Comment #81: Vacuumslayer  on  02/02  at  05:10 PM

Zifnab @#28,

Indeed, if I remember the old Cambodian revolutionary war cry correctly, it was “SUPERTRAIN!  SUPERTRAIN!  SUPERTRAIN!” Are we sure Atrios and Pol Pot aren’t related?

Thanks, now I have soda all over my keyboard and burning a hole in my nose.

Comment #82: shakahi  on  02/02  at  05:16 PM

There is a wonderful Korean store in Salem NH on Rt 28.  I try to make it there 1-2 times a month.  Even when I was traveling and it would be 3 or 4 months between, the store owner remembered my spouse and I.  They tend to get the spectrum of local Asians and a good bit of the hispanics (high density of the population in the general area as they move out from Lawrence MA), but not too many white couples including a westerner farm boy who wants to look at the chinese DVDs and not sure what white girl who buys kimchi by the quart and black rice in the 3-5 lb bag. 
The Indian store in the same disgusting little strip mall has really excellent spices.  They don’t look twice at me (maybe I look enough like I fit in) but they sure did stare at my blond son this Chrismas when I dragged him along.
My commute is 28.5 miles each way.  My spouse’s is 11 miles, just one town over.  My office is by a commuter rail station.  Unfortunately, it is not the line that runs through my small city overgrown to exurb.  To get to work I would have to ride over an hour in, wait 30+ minutes and ride back out about 30 minutes.  The drive is 30 minutes most days. 
Even so, we are looking to downsize and move in.  Downsize due to no kids, in due to both driving the same general direction and able to do without so much yard as no longer have those big dogs.  That’s going to have to wait a few years.

Comment #83: helen w. h.  on  02/02  at  05:24 PM

Living in DC or even particularly near it was not an option for us.

DC is much, much more expensive than other comparable cities if you want something like a rowhouse in a walkable neighborhood. The real estate prices for such neighborhoods are comparable with SF and NYC, whereas the prices for that kind of lifestyle in Philadelphia—or even many parts of Boston!—are much lower. DC is zoned in a weird way so that there isn’t much mixed use residential/commercial/retail development outside of a few select areas which are high demand. I recently looked at the potential cost of living my “preferred lifestyle” in Boston vs. staying in DC, and it made me consider moving.

Comment #84: Tyro  on  02/02  at  05:26 PM

Nope, I disagree that race is not a motivating factor. It’s all about money and trading up.  As an immigrant community becomes more established, its members start buying up property.  They first buy in the cheaper inner suburbs, but the (white) people who lived in the house they just sold to the immigrants have to live somewhere too, right?  So, they use the proceeds of the sale to buy an even bigger house in an exurb, especially since they will have much or all of their principle paid off.  The result is that immigrants move in and white people move out and you perceive it as racism.
Comment #13: PeterZeroOne on 02/02 at 11:16 AM

O come orf it!  IT’s frickin’ racism - you haven’t a clue how many times this person who lives in the exurbs because towns don’t have ag zoning and our equine pets don’t do condos, as heard , well we would have stayed in (city, diverse suburb) but once little white prince/princess son or daughter reaches school or middle school age, “we couldn’‘t see putting him/her in THAT school system, with THOSE kids” followed by platitude about how they’re really not racist and MOST of THOSE kids are OK, but the troublemakers, you know… and with (especially a daughter) getting older… 

THe ellipses are always trail offs which I suspect would be filled with anti-miscegenation statements if they dred to voice what they really believe.

Comment #85: phylosopher  on  02/02  at  05:30 PM

After what I said in #83, I’ll note that Salem NH is insanely white compaired to the fairly brown Lawrence MA, which is adjacent to it.  Also, its outskirts have very definately been influenced in demographics by white flight from various further in points of MA.  People move out from Boston as far north as Manchester while continuing to drive in to Boston for work.  Definately a matter of both white flight and class in many instances, though space you can afford and new construction are secondary considerations.

Comment #86: helen w. h.  on  02/02  at  05:33 PM

I’ll bet the history of it would surprise you, if it was formed as a suburb.  It was probably mostly white, and now it’s shifting as white residents leave as soon as non-white residents move in.

Both the white and the non-white population have grown rapidly.  The non-white population might be growing faster, but that’s true for the state of Texas as a whole, as well as the US as a whole, so it doesn’t really prove anything to me.  I guess we’ll have to see what happens when the Census data comes out next year. 

Yes, class and race often overlap in our society, and certainly there’s a history of racism in our country.  But when we act like the only thing that matters is race, we make it easy for conservatives to prove us wrong.  As in the article.  Minorities HAVE been moving to the suburbs.  And when minorities become affluent, they move to the affluent suburbs with the white people.  They have a harder time becoming affluent, of that I’ve no doubt.  But denying this is happening, denying that suburbs are becoming more diverse and it’s just that the whites haven’t managed to escape yet, well it’s not supportable, and it just makes the liberal arguments look bad.  Unless they are extremely wealthy and can afford to live in the most elite bastions of wealth, suburban whites will most likely be living in a neighborhood with minorities.

BTW here is the demographics of one of the exploding exurbs in Dallas.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKinney,_Texas  As y.ou can see nearly 20% of the population is Hispanic and another 7% is Black.  Moving to McKinney to escape non-whites is a really dumb idea, but it doesn’t seem to be scaring anyone off.

Comment #87: rebelliousjezebel  on  02/02  at  05:34 PM

Suburbs are economically unviable on the long term. While the exodus back from suburbs and exhurbs will be inevitable, what this will do is drive up the cost of living in the urban core, driving *out* minorities.

Uh no.  What may/will happen is suburbs with more things like community/private veggie gardens, a return to neighborhood schools, and if we’re talking about changes because of transport costs, then we’ll be needing truck farms again because the cost of shipping every goddamn green comestible all the way from California will make broccoli $10/# for those new urabn dwellers..
Rail will help, and more reliance on telecommuting is my guess.  We’re already seeing some of it.

Comment #88: phylosopher  on  02/02  at  05:43 PM

Well, to be fair, it’s not really about racism.  It’s really about privatizing transportation and destroying public transit options so people have no choice but to spend huge amounts of money on cars and gasoline.  Racism is just one of the tools that’s used to sell the process: you suburbanites should be *grateful* to be stranded out in the middle of nowhere, because at least brown people can’t get at you!  And it’s been a successful tool.

Suburban communities should have reliable public transit.  They used to.  Watch “Mad Men”—how often do you see Don Draper driving a car?  Up until the 1960s or so, most suburbanites took the train or bus to work.  If they weren’t within walking distance of a station, they drove a short distance (or, more often, let their wives drive them).  Then transit systems across the country shut down, or were so badly underfunded they became dangerous or unpleasant to ride, and anyone who could afford it started driving everywhere.

Here in San Francisco, I couldn’t survive without the light rail.  It’s not even that great a light rail system, but it makes it possible to get around.  My husband and I are moving to Berkeley, and we bought a house close to a BART station specifically so we wouldn’t have to buy a car.

Comment #89: Shaenon  on  02/02  at  05:53 PM

Killjoy,

I wouldn’t be surprised if this wasn’t very, very subjective by age, and I didn’t consider that when I first posted.  Sorry.  I’m in the recently-graduated-oh-crap-what-can-you-do-with-a-BA-in-English cohort, and for us, public transit is a moremoremore issue.  If you’re still used to using it from being in school, public transit feels like a much better option than trying to drive.  The Ottawa transit strike a while back had a bunch of people I knew walking 40+ minutes in heavy snow to get to pretty much anywhere, and believe me, they were having screaming fits about that; people who drove still found it awkward because student parking is hard to find, and cabs are expensive.  Driving means parking, and in a lot of places around here parking is at a premium, or just annoying to have to do (the person driving is the person with a responsibility on a night they just want to have fun).  I also know a fair number of people who work downtown who either carpool with someone who has to drive through the downtown core, or drive part of the way and then abandon their cars for the bus.  I’m also living in what used to be a separate township but which was amalgamated with our local city a few years ago; I’m well aware that our public transit misses giant portions of town and really, really sucks even in the parts of town it covers, since our part of town is in the barely-covered part.  Yet by comparison to the complaints coming out of the US, everything I hear about public transit is “it’s cheaper, it’s greener, and you don’t have to deal with insurance agents; bring more on plz”.  The feeling around here is that driving is what you do when you have to, and keeping transport options open is a great idea.  Hugely subjective, I know, but I think it’s still a valid and growing thread in the public debate.

And I do maintain that the 407 is a very, very lovely road, especially for people from outside Toronto (which the rest of Ontario kind of eyes with suspicion anyway, because it seems intent on gobbling up every other town in sight in a weird kind of municipal-level imperialism) who need to get through there but don’t want to actually deal with Toronto traffic.

Comment #90: fluffster  on  02/02  at  05:54 PM

I realize that’s just anecdata, but that’s one instance in which I saw firsthand race trumping class in terms of the level of disdain expressed by well-off white people.
Comment #29: DTG in STL on 02/02 at 12:31 PM

Well, I guess my anecdata (above) corroborates your anecdata, DTG.  But you forgot the ass-covering “it’s not HIM dear, it’s well his friends/family.”

Comment #91: phylosopher  on  02/02  at  05:56 PM

I agree with most of this, except that in a lot of places (like San Francisco bay area, or New York City metropolitan area), a lot of people live in the suburbs not because they fear diversity, but because they can’t afford to live in the city.

I live in Chicago.  When I was shopping for a house about 5 years ago, I wanted a yard, even a small one.  I was priced out of the inner ring suburbs as well as the popular, close to downtown, city neighborhoods.  Outlying city neighborhoods or the far, far suburbs were my affordable options. I chose a neightborhood 8 miles from downtown, 5 miles from my office.  Every other home owner on our block that has bought in the last 20 years is an immigrant, mostly from Mexico.  The previous population of Poles and Italians moved to the suburbs.  Many native born whites won’t consider my neighborhood and instead head off to the farther suburbs.

Comment #92: Ron O.  on  02/02  at  05:57 PM

THe ellipses are always trail offs which I suspect would be filled with anti-miscegenation statements if they dred to voice what they really believe.

What they really believe is that they think that schools shpuld not have metal detectors, the buildings should be in good repair, and that the amount of crime should be at or close to zero. Plus there is the factor of not wanting their children to regard the social problems associated with poverty as “normal.”

You can maintain a bit more of a white (or any) middle class in a city if you give them schools they want to go to. That is one reason why NYC will always bend over backwards for Stuyvesant, Hunter, and Bronx Science—because the schools serve as anchors to keep middle class families in the city, even when they maintain a commitment to a racially diverse student body.

Comment #93: Tyro  on  02/02  at  05:58 PM

What may/will happen is suburbs with more things like community/private veggie gardens

Most exurbanites, despite their professed love of the wide-open spaces, aren’t there to get back to the land. They want their veggies conveniently trucked in just as much as the evil city-dwellers do, perhaps more so. At the moment, you’re more likely to find a community garden in an urban core than you are in an exurb.

a return to neighborhood schools,

Only if funding and control of curriculum standards devolves to the same level. I guarantee you that you’d start seeing that demand.

if we’re talking about changes because of transport costs, then we’ll be needing truck farms again

That skill-set is long dead in the vast majority of the American population. I don’t know how well organic farms could scale to meet that kind of demand. But since it’s less a question of “if” than “when” regarding transport costs, we’re gonna find out.

Rail will help, and more reliance on telecommuting is my guess.  We’re already seeing some of it.

Rail is a long-term process, and as we’ve seen there’s a lot of resistance to public transit in the exurbs and amongst conservative politicians.

And as much as I love telecommuting, it’s not going to come close to pulling us out of the soup. There’s still major resistance to the concept from employers

Taking one industry that’s a natural for telecommuting, many employers who run phone-based customer service operations seem to prefer shouldering the costs of commercial space rather than let their employees work from home, out of sight—despite the fact that their competitors are doing it successfully. And that industry is the most forward-thinking when it comes to telecommuting.

So while I agree with your solutions, it’s unlikely that they’ll happen unless suburbanites are dragged into implementing them, kicking and screaming all the way. And during that period, we’re going to see even more ghost-town/slum burbs than the sub-prime crisis created.

Comment #94: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  06:16 PM

But no, no racism involved in these decisions to move. Not a factor at all!
Comment #47: Gracchus on 02/02 at 01:12 PM

Exactly.  I grew up in one of those areas and for years wondered about the sign on one of my aunt’s homes.  It was metal and bolted to the brick, something like"this house not for sale - real estate agents go away” on EVERY house on the block. south side of Chicago @ 1960’s.  Didn’t work.  Racist aunt moved because some black kid made an appreciative remark to her white daughter in high school.  They didn’t move to the ‘burbs though, just a farther flung area of the city (many cops and firefighters and teachers did this due to residency laws for city employees.)  You still find these predominantly white city worker neighborhoods dotting the southern and southwestern border of Chicago
http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1762.html

Comment #95: phylosopher  on  02/02  at  06:24 PM

The feeling around here is that driving is what you do when you have to, and keeping transport options open is a great idea.  Hugely subjective, I know, but I think it’s still a valid and growing thread in the public debate.

The general thread in American public debate boils down to “public transit is for poor people.” When I lived in NYC, even my more sophisticated out-of-town visitors had a hard time swallowing the fact that everyone who lives there—including wealthy people, including celebrities—uses the subway.

Comment #96: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  06:26 PM

Chicago Public Schools average $9758 operating expenditures per pupil.

Naperville, a large and wealthy suburb with a history of success, averages $6996 per pupil.

It’s more complicated than “more money = solve problem.”  There are some grossly underfunded schools, especially out in the sticks.  And wealthy parents are more than willing to spend $30k/year to send their kids to a good private school, so clearly there is a sense that more money buys better school.  But Chicago does way worse with 25% more money.  That’s a fundamental weirdness.

Comment #97: Punditus Maximus  on  02/02  at  06:28 PM

@Tyro, I had a feeling that was true. They just seemed so extraordinarily exorbitant, the prices around here. Even my diverse, “reasonably”-priced division would be well out of the doable range for many middle class folks. I love my home, but frankly, I’m bummed I’m so far from the city proper. With the traffic the way it is and my phobia of 95, I might as well not live close at all. *sigh*

Comment #98: Vacuumslayer  on  02/02  at  06:28 PM

flufster@58 The problem with new TollRoads, at least here, is that they are now touted as public/private partnerships, with the state using its eminent domain muscle to force people to sell (at lower prices than they could get if the private operator were forced to negotiate in good faith).  To add to the irony, the eminent domain process which benefits the private, for-profit lessee of the tollroad is paid for by the taxpayer whose land is being taken away.

Comment #99: phylosopher  on  02/02  at  06:34 PM

But Chicago does way worse with 25% more money.  That’s a fundamental weirdness.

There are inefficiencies in corruption in big bureaucracies, to be sure. And the entire approach to public schooling in America is screwed up in terms of priorities.

But again, there’s also the fact that urban school districts are more economically diverse than suburban ones. In Naperville, I doubt that there are a whole lot of students who arrive at school without a proper breakfast (or indeed, a proper dinner the night before), or who are being raised by their siblings, or are stressed out because a gang is constantly blocking the sidewalk on the way to school.

Comment #100: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  06:37 PM

I agree with what some others have said.  It’s not just schools.  It’s parks.  Soccer and baseball fields.  Places to ride bikes.  Back yards.  Affordable housing with enough square footage that you can accommodate life with children.  I was living in San Francisco when I met and married my wife, and there was no way we could raise a family there.  We ended up moving to Tulsa, because even if we’d moved to the East Bay we wouldn’t have been able to afford to buy a house, and we wouldn’t have been able to afford her being out of work for any amount of time (she wanted to quit working because she hated being a CPA). 

Although I don’t think the argument against mass transit is made in good faith.  Conservatives like to make smart sounding arguments to justify their positions, but it’s all bullshit to rationalize their knee jerk tendency to oppose anything that helps the working poor.  Even suburban Tulsa is full of people who make $25,000 - $35,000 a year, who would love to be able to take transit into work if it were available.  Suburbanites don’t all have SUVs in their driveways. 

I think it’s the same with all these arguments.  It’s always about the professionals and managers, like these office buildings aren’t full of secretaries and clerks making $13-$18 an hour.

Comment #101: Wallace  on  02/02  at  06:40 PM

How can you possibly have non-white residents moving in without white residents moving out?  Do you magically duplicate a house in a parallel universe at the moment the non-white family moves in? If you had a mostly white neighbourhood, and the number of houses stays constant, then you cannot possibly have non-whites moving in without whites leaving.

Uh, yeah, you can.  In one small city here, the zoning laws were changed to allow folks to essentially subdivide a house into rentals.  And poorer, more “colorful” folks were the ones who moved into those rentals.  That’s why there’s a LOT of prejudice against denser zoning out here in the ‘burbs.  Put multifamily into the zoning notice/planning notice and you get over a hundred people at the meeting.  Developers have learned, they now refer to duplexes as “paired villas.”

There are also infill projects where developers buy the “extra lot” with a house and build a 3, 6 or 8 flat.  And in Chicago, it’s a futile protest, because the alderman de facto controls the zoning.  If the developer crosses the palm, ya’ know?

Comment #102: phylosopher  on  02/02  at  06:43 PM

Chicago Public Schools average $9758 operating expenditures per pupil.
Naperville, a large and wealthy suburb with a history of success, averages $6996 per pupil.

The wealthy suburbs do not have to shoulder the cost of expensive vocational education programs, “special” schools for students with behavioral problems, extra security systems and personnel, and the diseconomies of scale that come with a longtime entrenched bureaucracy.

One reason it is advantageous to give incentives for middle/upper middle class families to stay in the city is that their children are less expensive to educate and they provide more tax revenue. Though IMHO, parents who live in a city should be able to send their kids to any school in
the state.

Comment #103: Tyro  on  02/02  at  06:43 PM

@killjoy #73 That is changing in some areas.  My state has recently taken over the general fund to stop this.  The operations of the school teaching salaries, etc. are now state funded (sales tax, I think).  But infrastructure is still funded by local property taxes with a public, binding referendum for any bonding issues over a certain price- and taxpayers have refused a couple of recent building projects.  Now, with our beancounter reTHUG guv, the fund that pays teaching salaries is being cut to the tune of @4%.  we’re looking at class sizes of 30-35 and this is the school district whiteflighters ran to.

Comment #104: phylosopher  on  02/02  at  06:53 PM

Look, I grew up in a school system in Appalachia that was not a “good” school system. (Something like a 40% high school drop-out rate, a bit of a meth problem, and a responsibility for feeding about 1/4th of the students in the K-6 the only two meals they would eat that day.) First, I point this out because Appalachian exurbs are kind of an ultimate location of white flight and the school systems are terrible. But second, I do have some sympathy for parents who move for the schools (or “for the schools”.) Putting yourself in a bad situation is one thing; putting a small child in a situation where you’re genuinely worried about their success or safety is quite another.

(Here’s the secret: the much wealthier school district I moved to had just as much sex and experimentation with drugs as the poor school district I left. But there’s rich people drug use - which is fine in moderation - and poor people drug use - which gets you sent to jail. There’s rich people underage sex - which happens between people who have family physicians and have been on the Pill for three months already - and poor people underage sex, which maybe involves a condom but only sometimes and gets someone knocked up. There’s rich people teen pregnancy, which ends before month three or is well-supported, and poor people teen pregnancy, which means dropping out of school. Economic and social privilege is generally marked by the ability to recover from everyday mistakes without the situation spiraling out of control. Because my affluent high school didn’t ask teachers to fight a losing battle against systemic poverty, it retained excellent teachers. It’s not fair, but it quite possibly saved my personal life, so I don’t know how to judge it properly. Also, my school system was one of about three in the state with a GLBT nondiscrimination policy, which made hiring very competitive)

Comment #105: purpleshoes  on  02/02  at  07:01 PM

The concept of tipping point is applicable to this, it does not derive from it.

Whoops!  Sorry.  My ignorance of science is showing.

Yes, class and race often overlap in our society, and certainly there’s a history of racism in our country.  But when we act like the only thing that matters is race, we make it easy for conservatives to prove us wrong.

I don’t see anyone who sees racism here claiming that the ONLY thing that matters is race.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this wasn’t very, very subjective by age, and I didn’t consider that when I first posted.  Sorry.  I’m in the recently-graduated-oh-crap-what-can-you-do-with-a-BA-in-English cohort, and for us, public transit is a moremoremore issue.  If you’re still used to using it from being in school, public transit feels like a much better option than trying to drive.

I’m in my late 20s and grew up in the old City of Toronto (before it was merged with the inner suburbs), so I know what you’re talking about.  And I love and (more to the point) am dependent on transit; I don’t own a car.  I don’t even know how to drive. 

My point is more that there are still a lot of people in Canada who don’t give a shit about transit and who are hostile to funding it, for pretty much the same reasons as Americans who are hostile to transit.  They’re the same people who elected Harper PM, who elected and re-elected the Harris Tories in the ‘90s, etc.

Comment #106: killjoy  on  02/02  at  07:03 PM

What they really believe is that they think that schools shpuld not have metal detectors, the buildings should be in good repair, and that the amount of crime should be at or close to zero. Plus there is the factor of not wanting their children to regard the social problems associated with poverty as “normal.”

WOW! Then they wouldn’t want to go to those suburban schools which have high drug use rates, rape on the school buses, which plague the schools here in white suburbia… oh, wait….

Comment #107: phylosopher  on  02/02  at  07:05 PM

This thread is uncomfortable because I’m thinking too many steps ahead…

I.e.

What happens as entitled, not-so-rich white people aren’t enabled anymore wrt to housing and schooling?  Or when their desires can’t be intermediated by the illusions of “economic practices”?  My chief issue is that I think we’re getting poorer faster than we can accomodate its ills in any sort of rational fashion.

Comment #108: shah8  on  02/02  at  07:06 PM

The classism in my comment stinks for miles, and I really want to rearticulate that I mean these as descriptions of the systemic issues in these two areas, and probably still sound like an asshole with that taken into account. But look, the high school drop out rate in my original school district was DOUBLE for girls. Double. Because of babies. Because of bad condoms and whoops moments. Do you know how many women from my graduating class delivered babies before graduating, in the rich school district with the comprehensive sex ed? One.

Comment #109: purpleshoes  on  02/02  at  07:08 PM

What happens as entitled, not-so-rich white people aren’t enabled anymore wrt to housing and schooling?

They’ll just do what they’ve always done, and lower their own standards so long as they have even poorer and darker people to look down upon.

Or when their desires can’t be intermediated by the illusions of “economic practices”?

There’s a whole industry devoted to propping up that illusion. Around here, it’s known as the MSM. And both major political parties are also heavily invested in Chicago School economics.

My chief issue is that I think we’re getting poorer faster than we can accomodate its ills in any sort of rational fashion.

I will agree with that. The day-late/dollar-short reaction to every bloody crisis, although profoundly ineffective in the long-term, seems to be the preferred choice of most Americans.

Comment #110: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  07:12 PM

Well Gracch, I’m just looking at some very recent starting trends:
Farmers markets have made it possible for truck farmers to specialize AND get their product to the customer - and they are popular; almost every town has one.  Add, urban/suburban backyard egg chicken boom.

As for telecommuting, most are of longterm employees who do so 2-3 days per week (I personally know of at least 3 neighbors who do that route.)

Then think about what is happening at the universities - walk down any faculty corridor and one sees nary a soul - research is done at home, online.  Ditto for many students and faculty with online classes.  There are even online grade and high schools now (K-12, EPGY.)   

And I’m not saying all those suburbanites will suddenly find their green thumbs, but many will be forced to when the price of gas/petrofertilizer is added in, or, they will turn their extra land in cul de sacs and hire a laborer.  There are some developments that already do this.

Comment #111: phylosopher  on  02/02  at  07:16 PM

Oh, the large schools/grade centers have stoked a HUGE backlash in my area.  There is even talk of taking apart the mega highschool for smaller schools.

Comment #112: phylosopher  on  02/02  at  07:18 PM

But Chicago does way worse with 25% more money.  That’s a fundamental weirdness.
Comment #97: Punditus Maximus on 02/02 at 04:28 PM

Uh, no.  Consider a) the raw material each starts with (by that I mean things like books in the house, college educated parents, etc) b) deficiencies caused by diet c) other factors that are detrimental to school - ducking from gunshots tends to screw up your concentration on homework

Comment #113: phylosopher  on  02/02  at  07:21 PM

As I said, I don’t think any of these things are bad or impossible ideas. Then again, see my comment #110.

Comment #114: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  07:28 PM

i realize this article is about light rail, but i am addressing this comment to the comments about race included in the article.

i do not want to live around or with gun toting young black men, or for that matter gun toting young white men, or asian gangs, or mexican gangs; or crack heads, heroin addicts, or any of the problems associated with the inner city.

get off of your racist rant, and start living in the real world.

the left had better grow up real fast in this country, and start concentrating on the economic injustice that causes these problems, or no one will want to live in the “asphalt jungle"anymore.

everytime the left gets going on one of the many “politically correct” crusades it just depresses me, the festering problems are ignored, as long as the proper “diversity” is ascribed to, this is why obama may be a one term president, and health care was defeated, because the left is too concerned with peripheral issues, and too busy making excuses for behavior that should never be tolerated in any civilized society.

Comment #115: derekmann  on  02/02  at  07:46 PM

I thought she would find it interesting as my parents had just moved to St George Utah, one of the Whitopias featured in the book.  She started reading it and is still pissed off at me.  I think she thought I was calling her a racist, the thing is growing up we moved three times each time to a further out suburb and a whiter school district.

Funnily enough, I thought Rich Benjamin really went out of his way to look at the situation not as a matter of individual racist hate, but a matter of the associations that come with whiteness, associations he argued most people of all races internalize.  But of course, there were some undeniable straight up racist incidents in the book, but by and large most people weren’t overtly racist.  And yet, white flight still happens.

Comment #116: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  07:49 PM

Having grown up in the SF (East) Bay Area, I can say without a doubt that the BART system, for all its faults (and there are many), was absolutely life changing for me.  From about the age of 8, my sister and I would take the train into Berkeley, Oakland, or SF on a regular basis to visit museums, parks, and other cultural attractions that were absent in our own suburban wasteland.  Of course, the very idea of allowing an 8 year-old to ride BART without supervision nowadays would earn a visit from Child Protective Services, but back then (70s and 80s) we were quite safe and never had any trouble.  It was the ticket to freedom for us, long before either of us had our driver’s licenses. 

Hmmm…come to think of it, this may be another reason for modern suburbanites opposing rapid transit systems.  After all, how can you protect your precious snowflakes from the world when they can hop the train and see it all on their own?  Might give them ideas…

Comment #117: Captain Bathrobe  on  02/02  at  07:53 PM

How can you possibly have non-white residents moving in without white residents moving out?  Do you magically duplicate a house in a parallel universe at the moment the non-white family moves in?

Straw man.  The concept of white flight came about because what sociologists observed was that after a certain percentage of a neighborhood had non-white families move in—-the tipping point—-everyone else white moved out rapidly, at a pace well beyond what it had been before.  White flight isn’t just a matter of this family moved out and this family moved in.  It’s when the second family moves in, does that inspire everyone else to move out?  Yes, the research suggests.

Comment #118: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  07:54 PM

Also, the history of sundown towns, race riots, etc.

Comment #119: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  07:54 PM

jez @87: I think you’re feeling defensive, and it’s keeping your from reading the arguments.  Minorities do move to suburbs.  No one denies this.  But suburbs were established….by white flight.  I’ll bet if you live in a diverse suburb, it used to be almost completely white, and the diversity is a new thing.  And I’ll bet it’s diversifying rapidly, if it’s hit that tipping point where your white neighbors are mostly moving out one more ring.

Comment #120: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  07:59 PM

It’s not at all unusual for total transit ridership to actually fall after a city has built one of these boondoggles, and proceeds to cannibalize other transit resources to sustain it.

Source, please?

Comment #121: shakahi  on  02/02  at  08:00 PM

O come orf it!  IT’s frickin’ racism - you haven’t a clue how many times this person who lives in the exurbs because towns don’t have ag zoning and our equine pets don’t do condos,

Not all horse people are upper middle class or wealthy.  I grew up riding horses.  My mom, a single mom, thought it would be a good activity for me and somehow scrimped and saved to get me riding lessons and eventually we bought a couple of Heinz-57 mutt horses.  Many of the people we knew in the horsey community were solidly middle class, including teachers and retirees.  All united by our irrational love of horses.

And for many, myself included, owning enough land to actually keep a horse was a big dream. (Most of us lived in the suburbs where zoning and space precluded any livestock.)  The community where I now live is very horsey but diverse. You’re just as likely to see a horse in the backyard of an ugly single-wide trailer as in the yard of a McMansion. (Our house, at 1200 square feet, is not a McMansion.)

Point…I’ll find it, someday…is that if someone moves to the outskirts of town so they can keep a horse, they likely moved there…so they can keep a horse.

Comment #122: adobedragon  on  02/02  at  08:01 PM

In fact, jez, I’ll add that I know the Dallas area pretty well.  I know exactly what’s going on—-as some of your suburbs are getting more racially diverse, people are moving far the fuck away.  Towns that used to be like an hour and a half away from Dallas are considered “suburbs” now—-they’re where the white flight is going as suburbs like yours get more diverse.  And that’s get more diverse—-they weren’t always.

Comment #123: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  08:03 PM

Consider a) the raw material each starts with (by that I mean things like books in the house, college educated parents, etc) b) deficiencies caused by diet c) other factors that are detrimental to school - ducking from gunshots tends to screw up your concentration on homework

Consider, also, that parents would not want to send their own kids to a school that has to grapple with all of these problems if they can avoid it and so will move to a place with a better school system without these problems.

Comment #124: Tyro  on  02/02  at  08:04 PM

O come orf it!  IT’s frickin’ racism - you haven’t a clue how many times this person who lives in the exurbs because towns don’t have ag zoning and our equine pets don’t do condos, as heard , well we would have stayed in (city, diverse suburb) but once little white prince/princess son or daughter reaches school or middle school age, “we couldn’’t see putting him/her in THAT school system, with THOSE kids” followed by platitude about how they’re really not racist and MOST of THOSE kids are OK, but the troublemakers, you know… and with (especially a daughter) getting older…

To be fair, if I were a parent right now, I would feel very apprehensive about enrolling my kids in the St. Louis City public school system - not because they might be exposed to “those kids” but because they would be getting an absolutely atrocious education.  STL City public schools have gotten so bad that they lost their accreditation a few years ago, and had to be taken over by the state.

But, since I don’t have kids right now nor do I foresee having any anytime soon (if at all), it doesn’t affect me directly.  But I do think that at least some of the apprehension about enrolling kids in lousy school systems is motivated by the fact that they are lousy school systems.  They aren’t lousy due to being predominantly black; they are lousy because they are woefully underfunded.

Comment #125: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  08:08 PM

Also, thanks to our wingut at #115 to make it clear that yes, this is about racism—-I think his bigotries are more common than a lot of people really want to admit.  Think about all the blog posts that spun out from teabaggers who came to D.C. to go to that protest.  Dan Riehl’s was the most obvious, but I saw more than a few who acted like they’d gone into a war zone because they sat on a subway next to people who aren’t white.  It was really pretty weird.  Also weird is the assumption that they know better what the city is like than people who live in the city.

Comment #126: Amanda Marcotte  on  02/02  at  08:09 PM

the left had better grow up real fast in this country, and start concentrating on the economic injustice that causes these problems, or no one will want to live in the “asphalt jungle"anymore.

As opposed to the right, which is oh-so-concerned about rectifying economic injustice.

Comment #127: Gracchus.  on  02/02  at  08:19 PM

I was living in San Francisco when I met and married my wife, and there was no way we could raise a family there.

Sorry Wallace but that’s a bunch of bullshit. I grew up in SF with plenty of parks and fields. I went to a good public school that wasn’t magnet and was mostly Asian American or recent immigrants. Shit, my high school even had and still has a beautiful view of the Golden Gate Bridge. Many middle class and upper middle class white parents that could afford to send their kids to all or mostly white private schools in the city or buy a house outside the city chose to stay in the city and send their kids to public school so they would be in a diverse environment. And lower income families like mine benefited from the diversity and many of the programs the conservatives equate to feeding stray animals. In 1995 my mom was supporting 2 kids on $36,000. So you and your wife had a choice. There was a way. You just didn’t want to make the sacrifices it would take. Fine, that’s your call. But at least own it. Don’t blame it on the city.

Comment #128: shakahi  on  02/02  at  08:19 PM

many urban school systems are so shitty because school systems are funded by local tax revenues.  When enough middle and upper-middle class citizens (who happen to be mostly white) leave the cities, it depletes the tax base, and urban school systems are forced to make huge budget cuts, and the quality of the education offered is sacrificed.  Many of the urban residents left behind in the cities are often stuck sending their kids to these crappy schools, because neocons have gotten bussing programs shut down and many poor city residents can’t afford private schools.

But Chicago does way worse with 25% more money.  That’s a fundamental weirdness.

No, it makes perfect sense.  Three of the most important factors in a child’s success in school are parents’ education level, parental involvement, and household income.  The reason urban school districts often have a high dropout rate is because all the students who are guaranteed to graduate aren’t in the district.  They and their parents skedaddled to the suburbs.  The only kids left are those with parents who are too busy to get involved, have little education themselves, and don’t make much money.  Urban schools have to educate the most hard luck cases (and that’s not even factoring in undiagnosed learning or developmental disabilities and the extra expense of educating non-English speakers).  Of course they do worse on 25 percent more money.

Comment #129: keshmeshi  on  02/02  at  08:23 PM

The size of the ideal house has changed as well.  My wife and I live in a Cape Cod in the DC burbs.  It’s small compared to what friends in the outer burbs have, but we chose small so we could live closer in and have a shorter commute.  But while our house is “small” by today’s standards, when it was built (1946) it was designed for a family with a couple kids.  people today want a larger home for the same size family…...

Comment #130: Woodrowfan  on  02/02  at  08:32 PM

O come orf it!  IT’s frickin’ racism - you haven’t a clue how many times this person who lives in the exurbs because towns don’t have ag zoning and our equine pets don’t do condos,

Not all horse people are upper middle class or wealthy.  I grew up riding horses.  My mom, a single mom, thought it would be a good activity for me and somehow scrimped and saved to get me riding lessons and eventually we bought a couple of Heinz-57 mutt horses.  Many of the people we knew in the horsey community were solidly middle class, including teachers and retirees.  All united by our irrational love of horses.

And for many, myself included, owning enough land to actually keep a horse was a big dream. (Most of us lived in the suburbs where zoning and space precluded any livestock.) The community where I now live is very horsey but diverse. You’re just as likely to see a horse in the backyard of an ugly single-wide trailer as in the yard of a McMansion. (Our house, at 1200 square feet, is not a McMansion.)

Point…I’ll find it, someday…is that if someone moves to the outskirts of town so they can keep a horse, they likely moved there…so they can keep a horse.

And middle-class equine afficianados who live in the exurbs or major cities represent a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the total number of exurban dwellers.

Simply put… you’re the exception, not the rule.

Comment #131: DTG in STL  on  02/02  at  08:37 PM

But they make up the majority of non suburban/urban dwellers, DTG.

If you want to call them exurban, go ahead.  They cry just as much when they see fields plowed under to become suburban subdivisions, too.

Wealthy exurbs aren’t going to the traditional schools of Appalachia or rural areas:  They’re new developments with new school buildings and new students.  They have limits on enrollments and kick out problem students to the rural or neighboring (or not at all) schools because there’s no urban core for those kids to loiter at, they’ll just be swept aside.

That’s the dream of the exurb.  A small town with small rules just for themselves.

Comment #132: Crissa  on  02/02  at  09:53 PM

Although, it was really weird shopping at the Korean market and being taller than everyone or being the only white person there; or being comfortable at the Vietnamese and Mexican markets because they’re most like the markets I grew up with, having a real butcher and fish counter, while they couldn’t actually understand me all that well.

You know, I can’t imagine wanting to avoid that experience.  Yes, I feel self-conscious when I’m the only white person in a room full of, say, Chinese people, but in North America, immigrants and people of colour deal with being the “only” all the time.  Why shouldn’t I deal with it occasionally?

I will miss those markets, but I can always visit.

Comment #133: Crissa  on  02/02  at  09:57 PM

phylosopher—that doesn’t explain the roughly equal teacher salaries (when Chicago is more expensive to live in) or the dilapidated nature of the buildings. 

It’s not that Chicago has worse outcomes; it’s that Chicago Public Schools are not good places for people to be.

Comment #134: Punditus Maximus  on  02/02  at  10:37 PM

@Woodrowfan: it’s not that people don’t want smaller houses, it’s that it’s illegal to build them.  I still tear my hair out over an exchange I had with a guy who served on his local planning board online.  He was trying to get some low-income housing rolling, and he got the area near the train station zoned into small lots (small house = cheap house).  Of course, the lots got bought up by developers for yuppies, and they made small, expensive houses in walkable neighborhoods to live in.  So they stopped zoning for small lots, because . . . why?  Because there was this huge, crying, unmet demand for walkable neighborhoods?  So we need to have fewer of them?  Gyah.

Comment #135: Punditus Maximus  on  02/02  at  10:40 PM

I agree with what some others have said.  It’s not just schools.  It’s parks.  Soccer and baseball fields.  Places to ride bikes.  Back yards.  Affordable housing with enough square footage that you can accommodate life with children.  I was living in San Francisco when I met and married my wife, and there was no way we could raise a family there.  We ended up moving to Tulsa, because even if we’d moved to the East Bay we wouldn’t have been able to afford to buy a house, and we wouldn’t have been able to afford her being out of work for any amount of time (she wanted to quit working because she hated being a CPA). ...

Comment #101: Wallace on 02/02 at 04:40 PM

If that were the case Wallace, then the city is the better deal.  The ‘burb I’m currently in has no sidewalks and some pretty busy streets.  One has to load up the bikes ON the car to get to the bike path - ditto for WALKING in some cases because of uncontrolled sprawl.  We go to a neighboring inner ring ‘burb to a city park facility for our sport, the local private venue is simply too expensive and not well run. 

The local parks are a joke with no programs, no fieldhouse, etc. .  For a pool, I go back to my old city neighborhood that has free swimming in an Olympic indoor pool.  They also have woodworking and two gyms for residents.  My ‘burb has padlocked ball fields in the parks.

So… you were saying?

Comment #136: phylosopher  on  02/02  at  11:31 PM

to: Comment #122: adobedragon on 02/02 at 06:01 PM

My comment was put in primarily to pre-empt the “then why did YOU move there” comment.  And yes, there are some others who did so for the land (and believe me I know many a horse owner isn’t well off - ME being a prime example - I believe the joke is that being a horseowner is the reason.)  ANd, horsepeople primarily move to unincorporated areas - most town zoning prohibits livestock, even if acreage is bought (with some obvious exceptions, like pre-existing businesses.) 

But that obviously isn’t the reason for the folks who move into the conventional 1/2 acre w/ 2000 sq ft house in a town subdivision.

Comment #137: phylosopher  on  02/02  at  11:42 PM

They aren’t lousy due to being predominantly black; they are lousy because they are woefully underfunded.
Comment #125: DTG in STL on 02/02 at 06:08 PM

OK, we’re talking about two different things here.  I’d better start listening better! You seem to be talking about people moving out of the cities to the ‘burbs.  I get that - I can’t imagine having a kid in a highrise at any income level!

What I’m talking about and this may be a strictly my area phenomenon is people moving from one ‘burb to another - even across statelines.
And this is the second or even third generation of white flight for the people I’m talking about. 

When Chicago went thorough blockbusting in the’60’s, many of these people moved to the inner ring of ‘burbs.  Then, as those areas gained color, they moved to the next ring.  The story (and this is the line in the local op ed radio shows) goes that since CHicago has pushed many former public housing residents out, and gentrified in other formerly affordable neighborhoods, the “criminal element” is pushing people farther out, because the section 8’ers are now “taking over” the inner ring, forcing even “good” people of color to move.  So now, the third generation (or second generation moving again)  is heading east because if they go any farther south, they end up in the primarily black river towns of the Kankakee Valley.  Funny, because the same white flight out of the city of Gary, Indiana will meet them from the east - it will be interesting to see what happens when distance precludes any more moves and they are “trapped” in the middle.

And the schools argument just doesn’t cut it.  Again, as above, the district they are moving to has 3600 kids in one high school, an expansion referendum that was just nixed and a governor who doesn’t have a problem with classrooms of 30…the school district they are leaving has been named one of Newsweeks’ top 1000 in six of the last seven years…better schools?  hellooooo?

Comment #138: phylosopher  on  02/03  at  12:15 AM

depends on which Chicago school, Punditus. They aren’t all equal.

Comment #139: phylosopher  on  02/03  at  12:22 AM

How can you possibly have non-white residents moving in without white residents moving out?

Because the phenomenon isn’t describing life at a micro level (e.g. individual properties turning over), but at the level of huge demographic shifts.  We can look at certain cities and see that they used to be racially diverse, whereas now they are almost entirely segregated.  Or they used to be predominantly white, and now they are predominantly non-white.  This happened.  You can look at the census records and see that it happened.  It happened within living memory.  You can find people, people who aren’t even that old, who remember white flight.  You can read books where these ideas are espoused - books that aren’t even that ancient or obscure or even out of print.  You can watch movies about it which were made as it was happening (West Side Story springs to mind). 

White Flight called into question via quotation marks is a prime example of the concept talked about in Lies My Teacher Told Me wherein schools typically don’t teach history subjects that are still within living memory.  Much harder to indoctrinate people that way, I suppose.

Comment #140: The Opoponax  on  02/03  at  12:29 AM

I grew up in Austin in the 70’s, so I’m pretty fond of funky Austin (what’s left of it).  When I moved back as an adult I bought a house in Pflugerville.  The reasons were pretty practical: cost per square foot, proximity to work, things like that.  Plenty of black people in Pflugerville.  Hell, I don’t think any of my oldest daughter’s boyfriends have been white, although I and my family are. 

There seem to be some broad generalizations in this post about why people live in suburbs.  For me personally, I spend almost all my time working or spending time with my family (soccer, school stuff, etc).  I didn’t see the bang for my buck to pay Austin prices when I wouldn’t be taking advantage of all the cultural opportunities on a regular basis.  I also like the way Pflugerville has managed its growth.  Having said that, get the freakin’ trains running because I do like to drop in to town when I have time!  I’ve been all over the world (in Bangalore right now) and it’s amazing that there isn’t rail in more American cities.  The controversy here is just nuts.

One thing that I find interesting.  I read recently that Pflugerville is working on combatting an image in the Austin area that Pflugerville is some kind of suburban version of Compton, which is just bizarre to me.  Racism isn’t restricted to cities…

Comment #141: sammavaca  on  02/03  at  12:38 AM

When Chicago went thorough blockbusting in the’60’s, many of these people moved to the inner ring of ‘burbs.  Then, as those areas gained color, they moved to the next ring.

This seems to be how it works in New York, too.  I have a mix of friends who grew up around here, of different ethnicities.  And it’s amazing how they segregate to specific rings of suburbia (Irish surname, Suffolk County; Italian surname, Nassau County; Muslim surname, Queens).  Their parents’ and grandparents’ backgrounds even tend to conform to the typical demographic patterns.  It’s really hard to argue that this didn’t happen on the macro level, or that it isn’t an easily mapped out historical phenomenon, when you can look around a room and guess which how far from the city someone grew up based on the color of their eyes or the texture of their hair.

Comment #142: The Opoponax  on  02/03  at  12:43 AM

phylosopher @99,

Ooh, I didn’t realize that.  I love the existing toll roads up here, but that sounds like a different, and much more negative, situation.

I don’t even know how to drive.
Count yourself lucky.  I have to, and it kind of sucks, even on a good day.

My point is more that there are still a lot of people in Canada who don’t give a shit about transit and who are hostile to funding it, for pretty much the same reasons as Americans who are hostile to transit.  They’re the same people who elected Harper PM, who elected and re-elected the Harris Tories in the ‘90s, etc.

You’re right, and I tend to forget how vocal they are.  They aren’t the only ones around, but they’ve controlled a lot of public policy lately, and as little as I like to credit them with anything, they’ve been quick to do what they want when they think they can get away with it.

Comment #143: fluffster  on  02/03  at  12:56 AM

So now, the third generation (or second generation moving again) is heading east because if they go any farther south, they end up in the primarily black river towns of the Kankakee Valley

If you mean Kankakee Valley in Illinois then you’ve sorta got your demographics wrong. Kankakee proper is black, but all of the surrounding areas (Bradley, Bourbonnais, Manteno, etc.) are overwhelmingly white with their own history of racism toward Kankakee proper. It’s actually a microcosm of the problems discussed in this thread. My family is from the Kankakee area and when my mother who is in her mid 60s was young, Kankakee was still a booming small city with a diverse population, a bustling downtown full of shops and restaurants, and good union manufacturing jobs. Then in the 70s future Illinois Governor George Ryan, and his cohorts in the Kankakee county Republican party chased out industry, in the 80s Chicago’s war on gangs and drugs shifted some of their lower income black population to Kankakee and gangs became a problem, business moved to the collar towns and new strip malls, and in 1990 a mall was built in Bourbonnais that took the remaining anchor stores out of downtown Kankakee. I should add that the reason Kankakee was able to become a bustling small city in the first place was it’s position on rail lines, and a good streetcar program that was of course dismantled when US car culture blew up.

Of course, if you meant Kankakee Valley in Indiana, you can ignore everything I just wrote. Up until a year or two ago I didn’t even know there was a Kankakee Valley in Indiana.

Comment #144: jessilikewhoa  on  02/03  at  02:59 AM

I should also add that it’s wise to avoid moving to Kankakee Valley IL right now. We have the second highest unemployment in Illinois at 14.3%.

Comment #145: jessilikewhoa  on  02/03  at  03:02 AM

Punditus Maximus :  If there was a big demand for smaller houses further out, I think people would build them.  A couple campaign contributions to the right county commissioners and viola, new zoning regs/  In the older neighborhoods when an old house changes owner, it’s pretty common for it to be gutted, or leveled entirely, and turned into a new McMansion.  There are some pretty ugly ones in my neighborhood.


One side note, FWIW, one reason we picked an older, closer in neighborhood was that it was more diverse.  I like the size of the houses further out (I have a ton of books and many are double-shelved) but the commute isn’t worth it and I can’t see living in an almost all white and kind of republican area. ugh…

Comment #146: Woodrowfan  on  02/03  at  11:29 AM

Jess, that’s exactly what I’m talking about.  Both Kankakee (46%) and Pembroke (92%) TWP are and have had large African American populations for while. The areas to the east in Indiana have African American populations of LESS than 1%.  And, our services suck - not a good place to live if one is low income.  To folks in white flight, Indiana is the Great White East.

Ask your mom about Pembroke sometime.

Comment #147: phylosopher  on  02/03  at  12:07 PM

Woodrowfan:
You would be wrong.  Most of the traditional suburb/exurbs (as opposed to just many of the overgrown towns/small cities shifted to bedroom communities) have zoning laws requiring too much land, too much square footage, etc., at least in MA, NH, NY & NJ near NYC, seemingly for no purpose but to keep housing unaffordable to the “wrong” types of people.  Also, developers get higher margins on more sq footage, so they have incintive.
But many people who would like a new but small house either buy new and huge or small but old because they can’t get what they want.  My mid20s daughter is a prime example of that as she has pretty much given up on finding what she wants inside the I-128 circle of Boston.  She is looking out to Lawrence, and will likely keep renting for a while, because she can’t find a 2-3 bedroom with a small yard for a dog.

Comment #148: helen w. h.  on  02/03  at  01:11 PM

Phylosopher, I know Pembroke, but it’s tiny. Look at demographics for Bradley, Bourbonnais, and Manteno. all larger small towns surrounding Kankakee. I went to Bradley Bourbonnais Community High School in the 90s and we had <10 black kids in the whole school which at the time had 2000 or so students, yet the next town over is Kankakee where the school is almost all black. The mayor of Bradley in the late 80s/early 90s wouldn’t even let the Martin Luther King day parade go through town. The Klan rallied in Bradley in the late 90s. It’s incredibly fucked, I’ve never seen another area so segregated. It’s awful really, besides the way the segregation screws the black population, it also means the beautiful old downtown of Kankakee sits empty and falling apart. There was a proposal to build up the downtown along the river like Naperville did to try to reinvigorate the area, but it never happened.

I can’t imagine living in Indiana though, except maybe Bloomington. Whenever I’ve driven through Indiana all I see are autoparts stores and discount tobacco shops. I do believe you about the white flight though, my father is a humungous racist bastard and for years he’s been threatening to sell his building in Ravenswood and move to Indiana. Claims it’s about more space and cheaper property taxes, but I’m inclined to think it’s more about finding his own whitopia.

Comment #149: jessilikewhoa  on  02/03  at  01:29 PM

Jesus, I just looked at exact numbers, Bradley literally shares a border with Kankakee yet the black population is 1.23%.

Comment #150: jessilikewhoa  on  02/03  at  01:31 PM

depends on which Chicago school, Punditus. They aren’t all equal.

Yeah, Chicago has systems-within-systems when it comes to public schooling. The magnet schools, versus the not-quite-magnets you find in the wealthier neighborhoods, versus the inner city truly urban schools.

Comment #151: hp  on  02/03  at  01:47 PM

jessilikewhoa at#149,

Holy Shit! In the early 90’s when my mom and I were having difficulties being in the same house, a family friend offered to let me move to Bourbonnais to live with her family and go to high school there. I considered it for a while but decided I’d rather put up with my mother and stay in San Francisco. I’ve sometimes wonder, what if? Now I’m incredibly glad I stayed at my diverse inner city school. That must have sucked eggs.

Comment #152: shakahi  on  02/03  at  02:54 PM

It was, repressive. The major institution in Bourbonnais is one of the largest Nazarene colleges in the country. The area is like a piece of the bible belt that busted off and landed an hour south of Chicago, then add in the racial segregation and the dead economy and you’ve got a certifiable exurban shithole. You’re way better off having stayed in San Francisco.

Comment #153: jessilikewhoa  on  02/03  at  05:53 PM

fluffster @#143:

The toll roads in the west generally literally replace the freeways that would otherwise be there between towns.  Very few are augmentations of urban or suburban transport.  And nearly all of them have been built with public money, and yet a private company operates them and takes the profit, not the public.  It’s sick. 

And to top it off, most require fast-pass systems, so you cannot just idle and pay the toll at the gate - if you haven’t bought the $50-$150 package in advance, you have to get off the road. (Some allow carpools, but they have no incentive to advertise that; so you don’t know if you can carpool through until you actually visit the road.)

—-

Is there a market for small houses?  Heck yeah!  Is there profit in it?  When they can spend a few more dollars and get a return of two or three times what they might get per house?  They’d rather leave them empty and sell one small house for the price of the three they built.  That’s how condos work in the Bay Area.  And the big houses cost a mere fraction to build what they sell for, so that’s what they aim for when not restricted by zoning.

Making single family homes is more ‘profitable’ than running any sort of farm.  There’s no tax pressure on farmers to sell their land in California…

Comment #154: Crissa  on  02/03  at  06:06 PM

jessilikewhoa @ 149 - Ravenswood is not white enough?  That’s funny.
Those outside of Chicago may have heard of this neighborhood because that’s where our ex-govenor Rod Blagojevich lived.

Re: big houses - Why is it assumed now that children need to have thier own room?  I never did.  The only people I knew that did were only children.  Somehow now all kids have to have thier own room.

Comment #155: Ron O.  on  02/03  at  06:31 PM

Ron, my father has racist slurs he uses that I’ve never even heard from other people, I think he got bored with the ones that already existed so he started making up his own. Plus, y’know, Ravenswood started getting more popular with the gay community, and crazed bigots will be crazed bigots. My father is pretty much a monster, I haven’t even spoken to him in near a decade, dude is whacked.

Comment #156: jessilikewhoa  on  02/03  at  07:10 PM

I always hit Blaspheme too soon and end up double posting. Guh.

My husband and I have been casually looking at houses online to keep track of what’s available and what prices look like. We’re looking at little bungalows in the older near south Chicago suburbs (Homewood primarily) and we’ve had the hardest time finding a 2 bedroom house. Even in older homes there aren’t many with less than three bedrooms. It’s a pain in the ass, because we only want to have one child (can’t afford more on our future salaries) but small houses are really hard to come by. We’ve looked casually at Bloomington Indiana, and Ann Arbor Michigan too, and those communities are lacking in two bedrooms too. I don’t know if lack of small houses is a nationwide problem, but it definitely seems like a midwest problem.

Comment #157: jessilikewhoa  on  02/03  at  07:16 PM

NO Jessi, there are LOTS of small houses, but generally not in neighborhoods with good schools.  Because, as noted earlier, the tax base doesn’t support their building. There are scads of those new “villas” usually paired, i.e duplexes starting in the $170K range in most of the new subdivisions.  There are also scads of 2BD1BA in the older suburbs of Griffith, Hammond and Highland, IN.  Probably $140K.  The closer you get to the lakefront and its heavy industry the prices drop. I have a distant relative selling a 2BD 1 BA finished basement for $109K.  The bedroom sizes in those older homes are somewhat laughable though - most 4BD either have them in a finished basement, or they need to be gutted to get more than a twin in them.  Sorry, did RE for a while - it still haunts!

Comment #158: phylosopher  on  02/04  at  10:52 PM

Yeah, my mom is a former Realtor and she said homes with less than 3 bedrooms have no resale value, because the standard idea of a starter home now is at least a 3 bedroom. Heaven only knows why someone just starting out needs three bedrooms. They really are hard to find, at least in areas with decent schools. Duplexes are a no go because I want all opportunities for my future kids, including noisy ones like drumming or building things if they so choose.

Unfortunately school quality is the driving force in where we move. I went to an average borderline below average school system, my husband to one of the best in the state, and his schooling experiences and level of preparedness for continued ed are just leaps and bounds above mine. At least Homewood gets to share an amazing high school with Flossmoor, without the Flossmoor home prices. I’d like to move to closer suburbs, Oak Park or my early childhood home of Evanston, walkable bikeable communities with great public transportation, but unless we want to totally gut a fixer-upper and redo the whole house we’re priced out of those communities. Homewood has Pace and Metra, but I would really enjoy direct CTA access.

Comment #159: jessilikewhoa  on  02/05  at  12:52 AM

Comment #158: phylosopher

I’m an idiot, a gigantic idiot. While there are still far more 3+ bedroom houses than smaller, my search included far more 2 bedrooms once I changed my search criteria down to just 1 bathroom. At the same time, most of the 2 bedrooms I’m finding are as-is and fixer-uppers, they seem to mostly be owned by elderly folks who have lived there for years and started letting the place go as it got to be more than they could handle. I still maintain we need more newer smaller houses instead of giant mcmansions, but I’m sure you probably agree.

Comment #160: jessilikewhoa  on  02/05  at  01:59 AM

That’s what I meant (and there’s no way you could have known; I just happen to have been on that street to visit the relative)- there’s one near that relative of mine - a 4BD but at 850 sq ft there’s no way those extra 2 BD are anything but rooms in the finished basement- but the listing will say 4BD!

You might also find a more innovative ‘burb, too.  Hammond, which has lots of smaller homes and a shitty school system wants to encourage home ownership - so they have a program where anyone who goes to their district and owns a home there gets free tuition to an Indiana state college.  The local regional branch of Purdue is partnering with them on a brand new public charter school, too… community based problem solving curriculum.

Hey, did you see the SmartHome at MSI?  It was built in Indiana by a really innovative company.    http://www.allamericanhomes.com/aahin.php

Comment #161: phylosopher  on  02/05  at  02:42 AM

OH, BTW, there is always homeschooling if your situation allows it.

Comment #162: phylosopher  on  02/05  at  02:43 AM

I saw a news feature about the SmartHome on either WTTW or CLTV, it looked fantastic. I think the refurbished shipping crate houses people are experimenting with are cool too. Pre-fab seems like it could be the small home wave of the future.

I’m actually really fascinated by the program you describe in Hammond. Do you know if there’s a timeframe to be eligible for the free tuition program? The husband and I are stuck where we’re at for 3 or so years while he finishes school, then we’ll be house hunting, so right now is just daydreaming and planning.

Comment #163: jessilikewhoa  on  02/05  at  03:45 PM

Here’s the website:

http://collegebound.gohammond.com/index.php

Oh, you might wan tto check out Prairie Crossing in Grayslake, IL too (new urbanism).  Pretty cool, but the homes are pricey.

Comment #164: phylosopher  on  02/05  at  06:15 PM

The Hammond thing looks really cool. Prairie Crossing looks…interesting? It sorta reminds me of crazy cult town Stelle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stelle,_Illinois

not that my opinion matters, those home prices are nuts!

Comment #165: jessilikewhoa  on  02/05  at  11:08 PM

Hmmm, I have met the folks behind PC - not cultlike at all, just wanted to show developers that a) people would pay for a view if it were guaranteed, b) buyers had values other than sq ft c) you don’t have to destroy to develop and d) you can make a profit even if you don’t pack more McMansions per sq ft.  The homes have really held their value, haven’t they?  I first saw them when they were $140K.  Didn’t realize they’d gone up THAT much, but it makes sense.  It is unique and all that guaranteed open space and the school, and the farm - yowza!

LMK through Amanda when you’re ready and if you get serious about Hammond or this area.  If you don’t mind saying, what’s dh’s degree going to be in?

Comment #166: phylosopher  on  02/06  at  01:00 AM

Finishing undergrad next year with a bachelors in Biology, then getting a masters in Education with a specialization in Biology Ed, he wants to teach junior high science or high school bio. I was working on a bachelors in elementary Ed, then planning to pursue a masters in Library Science with all the required bells and whistles to be a school librarian. I had to drop out for family/money reasons, but I plan on going back. That’s part of why we’re so specific on where we move, I’ll be working on my MA after we buy a house and pop out a kid (we’re older students so our planning is kinda screwy versus how I would handle things if we were traditional students, by the time he finishes his masters I’ll be 32), so we need to live where I can have access to an accredited Library Science program. From Homewood I would commute to Dominican in River Forest, and then Indiana University at Bloomington has a program as does University of Michigan at Ann Arbor. Looking at Google maps Hammond isn’t that much farther from Dominican than Homewood, although I’m not sure how tuition would be affected.

Too bad PC is so expensive, I just looked at Grayslake on the map, and the in-laws in Glencoe would be thrilled.

Comment #167: jessilikewhoa  on  02/06  at  03:23 AM

Dominican is private U no effect.

Comment #168: phylosopher  on  02/06  at  12:07 PM

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Comment #169: wuwei  on  02/07  at  06:07 AM
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