Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Writing for AOL’s Lemondrop Previous entry: Joe the Plumber…er, scribe(?!)

People do what they do because they want to do it

Last night, a friend and I were talking about my recent trip to Vegas and the practice of gambling.  I was (obviously) on the pro side, and he was, to my surprise, against it.  I say I was surprised because he’s an adrenaline junkie, and so I thought he’d love the thrill.  But he said that he’d played blackjack in Vegas and found that losing 5 hands in a row and watching his money disappear in a puff of smoke made him sick, so he walked away and never returned.  What’s interesting about this is what happened next—-both of us tried to employ “rational” arguments for why our tastes were different, to determine who was “right”.  He said, quite rationally, that you’re just handing the casino your money and getting nothing in return.  I said, with the help of someone listening in, that you get hours of entertainment in return.  Since we didn’t really give a shit about the topic, we dropped it, but reading this thread this morning, I found myself reflecting on the fetish for rationality that dominates our culture.  Or the fetish for trying to quantify everything into cost/benefit analysis, with the only acceptable reasons for doing something being that it makes/saves money or improves basic physical health.  (In my case, I argued gambling was “rational” by leaning on the fact that people do spend money to entertain themselves, so the expenditure was not outlandish.)

I wrote the post because I was amused at the negative tone that I perceived in an article about cohabitation, and the research that indicates that people live together for emotional, non-mercenary reasons—-because they’re in love and want to spend more time together.  But in the thread, as is usual with threads about decisions to live together or marry, people dwelt upon and often insisted that the reasons are mainly rational, and mainly to save money.  In marriage discussions, the invocation of health insurance has become an inevitability, even though I have yet to go to a wedding where they say, “Do you promise to love, honor, cherish, and always make sure to have adequate coverage until death do you get put into an actuary table?” 

I fear I offended some people—-okay, I know I offended some people—-by dismissing the idea that people marry for reasons of economic rationality, to improve the bottom line.  I think a very small minority of married couples were pushed over the line because they wanted a tax break or health insurance, but I pointed out that these privileges are unfair and should be made available to all, and, more to the point, I doubt very seriously that if you took away all financial and legal privileges that you get with marriage that it would do much to the actual rate of marriage.  Because people don’t get married for health insurance, to avoid writing a will, or for the tax breaks.  Like the vast majority of human decisions, the decision to marry is based on a combination of expectations and emotional reasons.  Expectations dictate a whole lot of human behavior, which is why there’s a not-unreasonable obsession with role models in our culture.  Most of the time, people don’t need to be bullied into behaving in certain ways.  They look around, see what other people are doing, and do that.  On top of that, people do things for emotional reasons, mainly maintaining social status, ego, avoidance of fear, and pleasure.  After all that influences your choices, strict fiscal analysis of health and wealth benefits barely has any room to change anything. 

Take the above gambling discussion.  We both tried it because it was what’s expected you do in Vegas.  I kept at it because it gave me pleasure.  He avoided it because it tripped up some fears he has about loss.  Admitting this outright causes a great deal of shame, however, so instead we just start coughing up rationalizations.  It’s nothing to sweat, because it was a discussion that had no consequences, but if it did have consequences, there might be a serious problem with squelching our understanding of why we really do things and insisting that we’re strictly mercenary, rational people.  For instance, take the entire bullshit discourse about free market economics, that falsely assumes both that people are capable of knowing everything they need to to make strictly rational decisions, and that they mostly will make strictly rational decisions, and if they don’t do that, they are bad people who deserve what they get.  Well, strictly rational decisions are .0001% of decisions, so building our entire economic system, cultural mores, and merit assessments on that model is a stupid idea.

I won’t lie; I enjoy needling people on the question of why get married when cohabitation fills the need to be with your lover just as well.  I’m probably being a little sadistic in doing so, but mostly I’m fascinated by how much the real reasons that I see that people get married are ignored in these discussions.  Here’s what I see really informs the decision to get married:


*Social expectations that this is just what you do. Again, psychology has demonstrated repeatedly that people tend to take their cues from the world around them and behave accordingly.  The more momentous the decision, the more they question it, of course.  Getting married isn’t something you do strictly out of environmental cues in the same way you, for instance, stand up for an ovation because everyone else is doing it.  But it’s a huge factor.  And it’s one that causes a lot of shame, because people don’t like to think they’re conformists.  But let’s face it—-with the exception of a very small percentage of eccentrics who are probably built differently than the rest of us, people are conformists and that’s okay.  We conform so often we don’t even think about it.  I’ve conformed roughly one million times today, and it’s not noon yet—-I wore clothes, minded my manners, queued up at the store properly, spoke English, didn’t fart in someone’s face, etc.

*Ego. In case you can’t tell, I’m listing these in order of the shame they provoke in people. Ironically, the reason people feel shame at all is ego, and then they feel shame about having egos.  Getting married is really sold up based on ego reasons.  It’s very ego-boosting to have someone want to commit to you, and it’s very ego-boosting to have a big party where everyone celebrates your accomplishment of getting someone to commit to you.  You can really tell, if you’re an unmarried feminist, how much ego is tied up in marriage, because anti-feminists go for ego right away, accusing you of being a feminist because you’re bitter that no one would marry and validate your worth. 

Social status.  This does cross-pollinate with strictly rational reasons, since social status can result in better economic outcomes, but usually only for men, who see salaries rise after marriage.  However, women’s go down, so from a strictly rational viewpoint, it’s a wash.  But both men and women see their social status rise when married, and this is not a small reason that women have been easy enough to convince to change their names and slap a “Mrs” on it.  All the legal and economic benefits we extend to married people are a way to codify this social status.  Barring gay people from achieving this social status is why conservatives oppose gay marriage.

Avoidance of fear.  If this isn’t employed as a strong bullying tactic to get people into marriage, then I’ll happily pick my nose in public.  You’ll die alone if you don’t marry!  No one will want you!  Public commitments reassure people that they won’t lose their partners, be rejected, be alone.  This is one place where I really feel antagonism about marriage, though, because I feel people are buying insurance that won’t pay out.  Marriages fail. A lot.  And then people who get divorced get really depressed, because they do fear dying alone or being past their sell-by date.  Fear isn’t a bad thing in the grand scheme of things, and can often convince people to be safe.  But there’s a dishonesty to how fear is employed in the marriage department.

Pleasure. Being in love is fun.  Fussing over your lover is fun.  Weddings especially give people a chance to do this. 

I put this list together, because this is what I was worried about when I decided that I don’t want to get married—-that I’ll be alone, that people will think no one loves me that much, that I’ll be treated like a child and condescended to, that I won’t get the pleasures of a wedding, that I’ll be a weirdo.  I didn’t think, “What if one day I’m not insured and I need insurance?”  I don’t think people are dupes, sell-outs, or suckers for having these reasons.  I think that these are human reasons, and they are often very good reasons (except the fear one).  We call ego “self-esteem” to dress it up in more flattering clothes, because having a strong sense of self is good for you.  Social status is upsetting to liberals because we see all the downsides of hierarchy, but conservatives get angsty about pleasure, which they see as a threat to order.  Expectations cause all individualism-loving Americans stress, but if you think about it, we wouldn’t be able to function as social creatures without the ability to take cues from our environment and act accordingly.  More to the point, I think that people live together without the benefit of marriage for roughly the same emotional reasons, but they just have a different list of priorities and/or a different read on what each of these motivators mean.

None of this means I’m against rationality, either.  My issue is that rationality has been conflated with economic bottom lines and avoiding passion, and that’s not what it’s supposed to be about.  It’s supposed to be about evaluating claims based on evidence and logic, and not about telling individuals that they can’t make decisions because it just feels good or for the hell of it or because they’re kind of neurotic and it soothes them or whatever.  In other words, to say that marriage is an outdated institution that needs to be reevaluated doesn’t mean that individuals who married made a bad decision they should be ashamed of.  In our culture, it’s perfectly understandable to get married because you’re in love.  That’s what we do.  But we can change expectations if they’re failing people.

I think the insistence that marriage is mainly a choice made of economic rationality is especially fashionable because of the gay marriage debate.  Conservatives claim that gay people don’t need marriage, and liberals defend gay people by pointing to economic, rational reasons that they do need marriage.  These things are true, and over time, I think we’ve convinced ourselves that this is why people get married or want to get married.  But it’s not.  People get married because of emotional reasons, and rationalizing happens after the decision is made.  Gay people want the same right to do that, and they should.  Conservatives object to same-sex marriage because they fear that allowing gay people access to the same social status rituals as straight people, they’ll gain equality.  This isn’t an irrational fear, because giving gay people equal status is exactly why liberals support gay marriage.  In a lot of ways, the health insurance argument, while sounding very rational and being technically true, is a red herring that distracts from the real point of disagreement.

And really, it tells you a lot about how much rationality can really do for us.  Logic and rationality will tell us that the argument is over whether or not gay people should be allowed to access institutions that give them social status claims that will lead to equality.  But whether or not this is a good thing is a value judgment, and people decide what they believe on emotions. 

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:22 PM • (113) Comments

But in the thread, as is usual with threads about decisions to live together or marry, people dwelt upon and often insisted that the reasons are mainly rational, and mainly to save money.  In marriage discussions, the invocation of health insurance has become an inevitability, even though I have yet to go to a wedding where they say, “Do you promise to love, honor, cherish, and always make sure to have adequate coverage until death do you get put into an actuary table?”

So you demand we provide rational reasons to explain why people would get married instead of just living together and then shake your head at all of us for having rational reasons instead of talking about how much in love we are?

And you wonder why those threads turn bad so quickly.

Comment #1: Mnemosyne  on  07/16  at  01:55 PM

Good stuff. People don’t give enough credit to the non-rational influences on their decisions. We are primarily not rational creatures. Most of our supposed “rational” reasons are post-hoc justifications for a decision we’ve already made.

We have our moments, sure. But most of the time we just do what we want because we want to. That’s certainly why I got married; I wanted to. Lucky for me, my wife did too. Jury’s still out on whether or not she was lucky that I wanted to get married.

Comment #2: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  07/16  at  01:59 PM

My attitude towards gambling is that I don’t get to spend $500 or $600 on myself very often.  And when I get the chance, gambling is no where on the list of things I’d do with that much money.

I wanted to marry my wife because I liked the idea that it made us family with each other, especially because I’m not close with my natural family.

Comment #3: Wallace  on  07/16  at  02:02 PM

Love this post. As someone who wants to get married (I think!), I think it’s great to acknowledge that ego, social status, and pleasure are reasons that people get married and that those are decent and human reasons to do it.

I’d also like to add “legitimacy.” Not just with respect to kids, but when you’re married your relationship gets a whole lot more respect and deference from people and institutions. Some of those people you might really care about. Even if they’re wrong to respect marriage much mroe than they do regular old cohabitation.

And the sense of making your own “family.” I like that.

Comment #4: m_leblanc  on  07/16  at  02:03 PM

I got married to a) dump my maiden name, b) to show I was committed to guy and to kids in the future and b) because when you’re in love that’s what you do (was married long time ago).  I’m just very lucky that I could get married and that I had that choice.  Would I do it again now that things have changed?  Yeah I think I would as it just makes things so damn easy.  Need meds picked up?  Send hubby and no one questions him.  It’s a quick “this person is able to legitimately do something for their partner” card which is unfairly just handed out to married peeps.

Comment #5: Vail  on  07/16  at  02:04 PM

My attitude towards gambling is that I don’t get to spend $500 or $600 on myself very often.  And when I get the chance, gambling is no where on the list of things I’d do with that much money.

Yeah, (to me) gambling seems to be an expensive way to provide myself entertainment. And I don’t find playing card games/pulling a lever/throwing dice to be that entertaining, to begin with.

Comment #6: hp  on  07/16  at  02:05 PM

Jeez, Amanda, no wonder you have no interest in getting married.  Only one of the reasons you listed in favor of it was positive, pleasure, and even that one is little distinguished from cohabitation.

Before we were married, W and I dated for awhile, lived in separate cities (but still in an exclusive relationship) then lived together for several months, before I proposed marriage.  The motivations you mentioned were certainly present.  Among the societal expectations I internalized was that if given a choice a couple ought to get married before having children. 

But the primary conscious motive was one you didn’t mention at all:  that I loved this woman so much that I wanted to make a meaningful, substantial committment to her, and to seek one from her to me, and to declare our intentions of mating for life before our family and friends.  It was a bigger thing than signing a lease, or even buying a house together, which we did before getting married.

Comment #7: MiddleageLiberal  on  07/16  at  02:09 PM

I still do not recall saying people who get married are bad people or that their reasons are stupid.  I wanted to be married in the past, and I think my reasons were sympathetic, and I don’t hate myself or feel ashamed. 

No, I ask these hard questions because marriage is a hugely tempting sacred cow.  It begs being tipped.  When institutional expectations are so overwhelming, despite huge piles of evidence that huge—-possibly most—-people are failed by the institution, then I think it’s a good time to start really thinking long and hard about why we insist on the institution.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/16  at  02:09 PM

I do think one thing that causes hurt feelings is that it’s really hard to question institutions that fail people without it getting read as accusing people of failing institutions.  Because mostly we’re used to hearing that.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/16  at  02:10 PM

Middleaged, I do believe I covered that in “pleasure”.  Also “expectations”.  You had these strong feelings and there’s a strong cultural tradition about the appropriate way to express them.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/16  at  02:11 PM

I think you’re right on. This gets to a basic issue I have that my friends get tired of me bringing up. We (at least modern western humans - the group I’m most familiar with at some level) spend so much time and energy ignoring our basic biological nature that we have to come up with elaborate and complicated reasons why we do things. But most people get really offended when you point that out. The bottom line is pretty basic. Like you said.

Comment #11: Mr Badcrumble  on  07/16  at  02:13 PM

Only one of the reasons you listed in favor of it was positive, pleasure, and even that one is little distinguished from cohabitation.

That’s not the way I read it. That’s only if you think “ego” is a dirty word and that people should never do anything because it confers social status.

Think about all the things you do to celebrate yourself. Have a birthday party. Have a graduation party. Tell people you got promoted. Celebrate that promotion with a party. Celebrate your anniversary with your lover. Get up and perform. And on and on.

What’s so wrong with ego? Is it really so bad to want positive attention every now and then? I say no.

Comment #12: m_leblanc  on  07/16  at  02:14 PM

I’ll readily agree that the vast, vast majority of people marry due to the reasons outlined above.  Especially the that’s-just-what-people-do reason.  Cause most people, for better or worse, don’t spend all their time thinking outside the box.

There are people, though, who have ahead of time done some thought work and rejected marriage outright, before the chance to get married to any particular individual comes up.  These people, and I include myself here, if they end up married, will have either changed their mind about the institution or are doing for the strictly rational/mercenary reasons such as health insurance.

Cause having rejected the institution beforehand, and not wanting kids either, which might have otherwise been an enticement into matrimony, I really can’t think of any reason I would get hitched besides desperately needing health care and not being able to afford either the care or health insurance, while my partner had health insurance that would cover me if we were married.  Tax breaks, et cetera don’t entice me enough.

Or maybe not even then.  Maybe I’d just move the hell back to Massachusetts and get some help from the state.  Or get that European citizenship I’m eligible for.  Or get married and then divorced afterward. 

But, as I said, most people don’t reject the institution whole cloth before hand, so they are marrying for the above reasons, whether they admit it or not.  And also, being rational/mercenary doesn’t mean you don’t also like the person you partner with.  You like them enough to be with them in the first place, you don’t look favorably on marriage, but you want/need some benefit conferred by it.  Unless you’re like a (gay) prof I had in college, who said the only reason he’d ever get married was to help some person out there emigrate to the US, thus throwing the government the finger.

Comment #13: rowmyboat  on  07/16  at  02:15 PM

Who would get married at White Castle?

Comment #14: asdf  on  07/16  at  02:19 PM

More thoughts about ego: I don’t think there’s anything particularly shameful about wanting to have a big party where the focus is on how you’re in love and how the couple is made up of awesome people who are awesome together. I mean, relationships are a huge part of our lives and we expend a ton of energy on them. Without implying that people who aren’t in relationships are missing something, I assert that building a happy, healthy relationship is something to be proud of and something worth celebrating. So what?

Comment #15: m_leblanc  on  07/16  at  02:20 PM

I do think one thing that causes hurt feelings is that it’s really hard to question institutions that fail people without it getting read as accusing people of failing institutions.  Because mostly we’re used to hearing that.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but what I keep hearing is, “All of you people who fell for the marriage propaganda are just stupid and didn’t think things through like I have.  If you had, you wouldn’t have gotten married.”  Again, I didn’t get married until my late 30s.  Trust me, I thought about this stuff.  I’m not stupid because I came to a different conclusion than you did based on my different life experiences, cultural background, and upbringing.  I came to a different conclusion.

Comment #16: Mnemosyne  on  07/16  at  02:24 PM

Fear isn’t a bad thing in the grand scheme of things, and can often convince people to be safe.

“One may dodge folly, without backing into fear.”  Rex Stout

The Wedding

May I chime in with a rational expectation?:  Men who get married have better health outcomes, longevity, etc, so for a rational man, getting married is a rational, logical choice on those grounds.

I’ve never felt that Amanda was attacking married people, but then I don’t take criticism of the institution personally, as I’ve seen its’ more wack moments, luckily, not too many of them from my parents.  wink

Comment #17: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/16  at  02:25 PM

“My attitude towards gambling is that I don’t get to spend $500 or $600 on myself very often.  And when I get the chance, gambling is no where on the list of things I’d do with that much money.”

I’d generally agree with that unless I am in Las Vegas. If gambling is available to me, I will generally gamble, but I have learned my lesson and give myself a limit (either winning or losing) and get up and walk away when that has been met. There are, nowadays, a lot more options for entertainment in Vegas than when I first started going, but I do enjoy playing a little blackjack every now & then.

Comment #18: Mark  on  07/16  at  02:30 PM

Hm. I find gambling boring and stressful at the same time. I never lost money at a casino, but I know the money to get them built and keep them running is supposed to come from me, the sucker at the table.  Besides, I know a lot of horseplayers and none of them ever could keep their winnings. If I want entertainment where I sit down, I watch a movie. Otherwise I’d rather do something active (even if it’s light activity like playing music).

Marriage I never cared about as an institution, but it seems to be sold to women (you never see a magazine called Groom, do you?) as something like The Event Of Their Lives. For me, cohabit, marry, it’s all the same.

Comment #19: mndean  on  07/16  at  02:32 PM

Amanda, I agree that people get married for many non-rational reasons.  My problem with your list is that for the most part, you described why people have a public wedding ceremony, not why they get married.  A marriage (usually) lasts much longer than the wedding ceremony.

One of the best non-rational reasons for marriage I’ve heard was found on Andrew Sullivan’s blog, regarding the non-economic and non-legal reasons that gay marrriage is just as important as straight marriage.  He quoted a friend who told him, “The reason why that piece of paper matters so much is because one day you’re going to have a fight so bad, you’re going to want to walk out and never come back.  And the only thing keeping you there is that piece of paper and the fact that it’s too damn much trouble to get rid of it.  Six months or a year after that, when things are better and you’re so glad you didn’t walk out that day and you’re still married, that’s when you’ll realize why that piece of paper matters.”

Comment #20: Monala  on  07/16  at  02:36 PM

I think a very small minority of married couples were pushed over the line because they wanted a tax break or health insurance, but I pointed out that these privileges are unfair and should be made available to all,

Er…so people would have to go to the courthouse and sign some sort of contract in front of witnesses which would allow them to have such benefits?  And they wouldn’t be allowed to enter into such a contract with anybody else until they had legally dissolved the previous contract?  And there would be rules for how the contract could be dissolved?  I asked this on the previous thread, and I’ll ask it again here.  How is this functionally distinct from “marriage”?

Or, if you don’t want to have people have to formalize it, how on earth do you determine who is entitled to such benefits and who is not?

Comment #21: jlk7e  on  07/16  at  02:36 PM

Great post and I like how you point out that even those of us living in sin are doing so mostly for a variety of ego-driven and non-rational reasons. 

We are all looking for ego boosts from time to time and everyone gets their kicks in different ways.  Weddings work for some.  A constant sense of self-sufficiency works for me.

Comment #22: semi_factual  on  07/16  at  02:38 PM

My mom loves going to Vegas, but not to gamble.  She loves it because it’s so inexpensive to go to shows and eat out, since the casinos want you to spend your money on gambling.  She usually gambles at least once when she goes, but she gives herself a limit of money (usually $20-$50).  She wins or she doesn’t, but either way, when she hits her money limit, she’s done.

Comment #23: Monala  on  07/16  at  02:39 PM

We got married for the money and the housing options. But that was because I came from a background where getting married young was frowned on, so not getting married just for love was in keeping with expectations.

Comment #24: lonespark  on  07/16  at  02:40 PM

For me, finding my wife came before discovering I wanted to be married.  We were in our mid-20’s and living in San Francisco, and it didn’t seem like marriage was something anyone we knew wanted to do.  It wasn’t until we started dating, and she turned out to be a cascade of awesome, that the idea that I might want to be married occurred to me.

Most of it was, like I said, wanting to be family with each other.  But I think there was also an element of ego, in the sense that I was attracted to the idea of proving that we could succeed where others fail.  I think there was something attractive about the idea of being one of the rare couples that are successful at marriage.

For what it’s worth, we eloped and got married in Reno.  It was not about a public celebration to validate our relationship.

Comment #25: Wallace  on  07/16  at  02:41 PM

I got married because I was in love and because I wanted to.  But I also got married for all the reasons that Amanda has named.  My friends and I have talked a lot over the years about how much of an influence peer pressure was in making that decision.  I certainly don’t regret it, quite the opposite.  I’m married to my best friend and we have four great kids.  It was definitely right for me because the good reasons and the bad reasons came together under the right circumstances.  A few months ago Amanda wrote a post that cited Springsteen’s “The River” as an indictment of marriage.  I listened to the song a bunch of times to try to sort out why and how my experience is so starkly different from that song.  I think the bottom line is the combination of reasons and circumstances has a lot to do with whether or not the marriage succeeds.  I got married at 25, but my marriage would have turned out a lot differently had I gotten married at 18.

Comment #26: Carmicus  on  07/16  at  02:43 PM

<blockquote>
I think a very small minority of married couples were pushed over the line because they wanted a tax break or health insurance, but I pointed out that these privileges are unfair and should be made available to all,

Er…so people would have to go to the courthouse and sign some sort of contract in front of witnesses which would allow them to have such benefits?  And they wouldn’t be allowed to enter into such a contract with anybody else until they had legally dissolved the previous contract?  And there would be rules for how the contract could be dissolved?  I asked this on the previous thread, and I’ll ask it again here.  How is this functionally distinct from “marriage”?
<blockquote>

I think the point with tax breaks and health insurance is that even sad spinsters and bachelors should be able to get them.  No one should have to enter into any kind of relationship to avoid being uninsured. 

If you are talking about next of kin benefits, then yeah that could be complicated, but not everyone wants to put all those responsibilities on their s.o.‘s shoulders.

Comment #27: semi_factual  on  07/16  at  02:45 PM

Shorter Amanda:

marriage= not farting in someone’s face

I beg to differ! Remember, this is a Both/And blog

smile

Comment #28: staydaddy  on  07/16  at  02:47 PM

Speaking as a militantly unmarried person in a committed relationship, there’s a lot of priviledge in that list of irrational reasons to marry. My partner is foreign (well, actually, as I live in his country, I am foreign). If we want to move to my country (USA) he will likely not be approved entry without a marriage licence and if I am unemployed for any great time or get into any legal trouble at all I will be asked to leave his country.

Neither of us want a piece of paper (for different reasons - his are closer to Amanda’s needling, mine are a little more to do with feminism and queer rights) to define our relationships, but we both recognise that without it a whole lot of faceless government officials may one day deem one of us unwelcome.

We’ve talked about marriage as a last ditch in case there ever are problems, but the quiet fear that someone could split apart my life is something that I’ve thought about considerably more than when I was dating my countrymen/women. Call it a rational dose of the irrational that finds no place on this list.

Comment #29: SapphireCate  on  07/16  at  02:54 PM

I actually agree with you Amanda. Although I am married, and I like it, but I don’t think most people should get married. I hold this opinion because I’ve seen so many people get married for such stupid reasons. There are countless of crappy reasons to get married and only one good one, that being because you want to spend all the rest of your days with a particular person and you like the idea of making a legal commitment to that fact. That situation seems uncommon, if not rare.

As far as gambling. I’m too cheap to enjoy gambling. I don’t know if that is “rational” or not, but it is true. I can enjoy quarter-a-play video poker because an adolescence spent in pinball/video arcades desensitized me to throwing quarters away for no material gain, but I do not enjoy anything richer or more complicated than that. When the Mrs. and I went to Vegas we spent most of our time people watching, hiking in the desert and going to shows.

Frankly I understand your distaste for marriage much easier than I understand your taste for gambling.

Comment #30: fastandsloppy  on  07/16  at  03:08 PM

Nit-pick:

...because people don’t like to think they’re conformists…

Maybe not the people we hang out with, but most people do want to conform, and to be seen to conform.  Anyone interested in the political process would do well to remember this, and also to remember that people in general have an average IQ of 100.

Back to the topic: I got married because we happened to be in California last summer during the window of legality.  In order of importance, we wanted to:
1) Be publicly and legally committed to one another, so that it would be that much more difficult to break up
2) Add to the numbers, to help show that Prop 8 would negatively many people
3) Be able to introduce each other as “my husband,” to see whether new acquaintances would do a double-take, or take it in stride.

Comment #31: BABH  on  07/16  at  03:14 PM

“One of the best non-rational reasons for marriage I’ve heard was found on Andrew Sullivan’s blog[...]”

Ehn.  The “saving you from yourself” argument is kind of thin grits, as far as I’m concerned.  The world isn’t going to spin off its axis if my husband and I split up, we’re both adults who can figure out whether or not we really want to be together, and we don’t need to be married to break up and then realize that separating isn’t actually what we wanted and reunite.  On-again, off-again relationships where the partners never really leave each other’s orbits can last decades, no license required.  Then again, I’ve never seen the non-patriarchalicious appeal of things like covenant marriages.  If you’re both so dead set against divorcing, all you have to do is not get divorced.  There aren’t lawyer-ninjas sneaking around, orchestrating precision divorces in the dead of night and then melting back into the litigation shadows.  You’re not going to wake up one morning with your wedding rings gone, your bank statement ceremonially cut in half, and an appointment with a mediator to figure out who gets which car.

Comment #32: preying mantis  on  07/16  at  03:16 PM

Edit: ...to show that Prop 8 would negatively affect many people

Comment #33: BABH  on  07/16  at  03:16 PM

I recently read this great book by Jonah Lehrer, called The Decisive Moment. It’s a pop-sci text, exploring the different ways in which we make decisions on the biological, this-is-how-your-brain-works level. Highly recommend it, he’s a great writer.

Anyway, the bit I found most fascinating in the book was the chapter about emotional vs. so called rational decision making. It turns out that the limbic system, which is the emotional centre of the brain, is heavily implicated in decision making. People who have limbic centre damage are completely incapable of making even the most simple decisions. They will sit there and deliberate, rationally, between rational choices on, say, a restaurant menu, spinning off into more and more detailed differences between the different options, like calorific value, portion size, the colour of the food, whether its similar or different to what they had yesterday, and so on - for hours. They just can’t decide. The tangible factors just don’t provide enough relevant information to the brain to be able to make a determination.

It’s also the case that the prefrontal cortex, the bit of the brain usually associated with reason, is not terribly good at keeping more than about 7 pieces of relevant information in its buffers. Beyond that threshold, it gets confused. So if you’re buying a car, say, and trying to compare five different factors among three different models, then for all of your illusion of control you’re probably missing something. The prefrontal cortex just doesn’t have the wiring capacity to deal with many complex variables that you have a predetermined preference about: that sort of efficiency is where the limbic system kicks in (because it has much longer buffes, so instead of a list of pros and cons it refers to years of accumulated knowledge of benefits and preferences). You’re better off going with your gut feeling, and most people eventually do - that’s why rationalisations of personal preference (like the gambling argument) usually hit a brick wall pretty quickly.

What I’m trying to say with this story is not only that rational choice theory is bullshit (it is), but that Amanda’s list of emotional reasons above is not only true, but the best way people have to make decisions about whether or not to get married. Far from married people being gullible boobies who “fell” for the propaganda of marriage, they are actually the ones doing it right. People getting married because it gives them pleasure and acceptance are making the best decision for them.

So there is no disrespect towards married people in my saying that marriage is a failed institution and we should examine ways of reducing its prevalence. That one really is a rational determination - based on the fact of marriage failure on a massive scale and the emotional and economic damage that comes with it. To reiterate what Amanda said very succinctly, the problem is with marriage as defined by our laws, not with the people getting married (and/or divorced).

By way of anecdote, my experience of people who genuinely got married for practical reasons is that they end up enjoying marriage a hell of a lot less than those who really believed in it, and resent the price they have to pay for it more. And that piece of paper that prevents you from getting up and leaving after a really bad argument turns into a prison instead of a security blanket.

Comment #34: MarinaS  on  07/16  at  03:20 PM

I got married because I was in love with somebody from a different country, and at that time, a marriage visa was our fastest option, with the highest possibility of success. Had the situation been different, we certainly would’ve cohabited longer than we did (it was like six weeks between me moving here, and the actual wedding, and I look back on our brief period of living in sin fondly), and mightn’t have bothered with it at all. Or maybe we would’ve, but again, it would’ve been because we wanted to, not because of a tax break or whatever.

Comment #35: Bella  on  07/16  at  03:21 PM

I think you’re really missing the idea that different people have different degrees of a need for freedom/commitment.  We’re willing to accept the archetypal “wanderer” who doesn’t want to settle down with anyone.  Certainly we’re on board with both serial monogamists and with people who engage in long-term relationships without formal commitments.  Why not recognize that the scale really does run all the way over to a desire for committed monogamy without attributing it to ego or adherence to traditional social constructions?

This isn’t the same as fear of dying alone, it’s an attachment issue.  With both my husband and myself, we were wary of anything that smelled of ‘seriousness’ in a relationship short of a lifetime commitment.  And before we found each other, every time relationships started to get serious, the amount of anxiety that temptation to love wholeheartedly produced in each of us was fatal to the relationship.  One of the things that drew us together was a recognition in the other that we were all-or-nothing people.

One of the comments in the other thread was about how much the commenter and his girlfriend liked about their relationship that every day, they chose each other.  That’s great for them.  For us, that same arrangement would be inadequate and ultimately, abandoned.  For some people, marriage is the reality that follows My Special Day; for others, it’s just a piece of paper that doesn’t really change anything; for us, all I can tell you is that being married upped the ante on our relationship in a way I did not expect before I was married and would not undo for the world.  Those vows liberated us by binding us together.

Comment #36: jenniebee  on  07/16  at  03:23 PM

Mantis: I disagree a little.  Breaking up a long-term relationship (whether or not you end up getting back together) is a huge pain in the ass, particularly with respect to children, housing, cars, pets, joint bank accounts, etc.  Legal marriage makes it even more of a pain in the ass, thereby making it less likely you’ll ever get on that rollercoaster.  OTOH, if things really don’t work out, and aren’t ever likely to, then the legal system provides a fine-tuned process for dividing custody and property.  It’s sort of win-win.

Comment #37: BABH  on  07/16  at  03:28 PM

jenniebee: I totally relate.  You and your husband articulated it a lot better than me and mine, but we feel the same way!

Comment #38: BABH  on  07/16  at  03:32 PM

Elsewhere you were down on marriage because historically it was a ceremony and legal framework created for the purpose for passing the ownership of a woman (acutally, usually a girl) from one family to another. I think that back when that was how marriages were generally conducted it ,was a usually rational decision because wealth, tribal alliances and family honor were involved and there was a lot of strategic planning involved for both families.

Of course I mean it was a rational decision for the men involved. The poor girl had about as much say as the goats she got traded for.

Now that Marriage generally considered a romantic function of course the vast majority of us don’t enter into it for logical reasons. Love is many things, but it ain’t logical (I’m looking at you Sanford). We can make all of the post hoc rational excuses we want, but when it comes right down to it most of us get married or start living with someone outside marriage because we have little starbursts in our eyes and hearts.

Comment #39: fastandsloppy  on  07/16  at  03:34 PM

I think the insistence that marriage is mainly a choice made of economic rationality is especially fashionable because of the gay marriage debate.  Conservatives claim that gay people don’t need marriage, and liberals defend gay people by pointing to economic, rational reasons that they do need marriage.  These things are true, and over time, I think we’ve convinced ourselves that this is why people get married or want to get married.  But it’s not.

The public debate over gay marriage and being a supporter of gay marriage has very definitely changed my views, but not in the way you describe.  I spent my whole life not understanding marriage, not seeing the need for it and in no way desiring to get married.  Prior to the gay marriage debate I thought marriage was all about babies and health insurance and I have always been kid-avoiding and self-providing so I thought marriage was irrelevant to me.  Then gay marriage entered our consciousness, our daily thinking and discussions and became something to really think about.  I’m all for gay marriage and as I expressed and defended that position I found myself realizing that there are other reasons people get married besides insurance.  That is when I -to my shock, surprise and relationship upset - realized that I do want to get married some day.

I think my reason falls somewhere between your ideas of ego, fear avoidance and pleasure and even social status now that I really think about it.  I like the idea of having a partner in everything and putting that partnership first, the idea of “we”.  And I like the idea that that partner is my love and loves me to and we get to see each other constantly. I love that 2 people go from being 2 individuals to becoming 2 individuals AND a single family.  I want to be part of a family.  I like the idea that the partnership is recognized by society as a family, as a fully whole unit.  I crave the security and pride of my partner committing to me in a legal way.  I crave that he might WANT to do that.  I like the idea that commitment is built in and publicly acknowledged - not in terms of a wedding, I could give a shit about weddings - but in larger societal way.  Maybe that is what you mean by social status, but I wouldn’t use those words.  I’m not thinking “I’ll get a promotion and a better office if I’m married” but more like “My relationship won’t be treated as temporary, irrelevant or expendable by other people”.  All that said, I don’t want to get married for the sake of being married.  Pleasure must be my #1 reason because this whole idea is focused around the person who makes me happy.

Comment #40: jackieg  on  07/16  at  03:35 PM

Maybe the US is different, but in Europe, where the social safety net is much better, you see significantly lower marriage rates and higher rates of children born to unmarried parents (which is as quick-and-dirty a proxy for longterm committed couples as you could want). Of course, there it’s not just the health benefits but also the income support and support for education, so that pretty much non of the financially-based reasons for marriage hold.

I think, though, that Amanda may be mixing two very different populations. There are people for whom, because of religion, upbringing, susceptibility to cultural pressure, blah blah, marriage is a big deal. And then the ones for whom it just isn’t.

Comment #41: paul  on  07/16  at  03:36 PM

oops.

And I think that the ones for whom it isn’t a big deal are probably way overrepresented among the commenters here.

Comment #42: paul  on  07/16  at  03:39 PM

These threads get tiresome really quickly.

It is rational to get married because you don’t like being condescended to.  It is rational to get married so that you legally have the right to be with the person you love in scary situations (hospitals, etc.) 

And it can even be rational to have a wedding - particularly if someone else is willing to pay for a party at which others are willing to give you a lot of stuff you need (if you don’t need it, you don’t ask for it or you return it; we got exactly one pointless, expensive present that could not be returned), why turn it down?  I thought a wedding would be pointless, but we now have >4 plates, a couch, a coffee table, soft towels, and a substantial savings account.  Initially, I just wanted to go to the justice of the peace, but when I realized what a dumb financial decision that would be, I gave in.  Plus, we got to see friends scattered all over the country.  Wasn’t there just a discussion of rent parties and how they are a good idea? 

Ugh.

Comment #43: Kirjava  on  07/16  at  03:40 PM

I’ve come to believe that very few human decisions are “rational”, regardless of which area of life they are made in.

Rationality is really just a thin veneer over the seething emotions and conflicting signals of our mortal selves.  Being rational/logical/coldly-calculating is not a natural human state of being.  And what we believe to be rational can change drastically with alteration of brain chemistry and/or emotional state.

This used to bother me a lot.  I went into the sciences in large part because I believed in rationality and logic.  I enjoy Computer Science because its primary focus is on careful, rational, logical thinking. 

But this is not where most people are.  And I’ve come to accept that it’s perfectly okay (for the most part) that they are not rational at all moments of the day.  (I’ve learned to be more aware that I have plenty of my own moments of irrationality, and that I’m really no different from anyone else in that respect.)

I think what Amanda is talking about is acceptance of what we actually are, as opposed to what we want to believe we are…

Comment #44: MikeEss  on  07/16  at  03:41 PM

...it’s really hard to question institutions that fail people without it getting read as accusing people of failing institutions.  Because mostly we’re used to hearing that.

This.  Some people fail their marriages.  Some people are failed by marriage itself.  But the latter are always treated like the former.

Comment #45: seeker6079  on  07/16  at  03:42 PM

I’m not so sure statistics might change if the legal benefits of marriage didn’t require marriage to get—I think over time, especially since the U.S. is trending less religious, not needing marriage for legal reasons might create a significant change in marriage statistics, and more people might choose cohabitation because they feel no need to get married. It might be a while because even now people like a relationship is so much more legit due to a piece of paper (something I really resent), and if you’re married to someone you’ve known for a day people think you’re more solid than “just a boyfriend” of 10 years. . .meh.

I’d much rather have the ability to sign contracts for things like hospital visitation rather than have the institution of marriage—and I wish universal health care existed so it wasn’t necessary.

I think people may have been offended by you feeling like getting married for logical reasons as being something you want nothing to do with as suggesting it means they are less in love than people who do it for non financially related reasons, or that their relationship is a means to an end rather than a means in itself. I don’t think you can take that away from people going to the courthouse and wanting the justice of the peace to get it over with, because if your relationship is such that you felt totally committed without marriage or even cohabitation in the first place, getting married for citizenship/health benefits/hospital visitation rights is no different than if you could have just contracted for those things in a society where marriage is just something you do at the church and doesn’t confer legal rights.

I *already* was committed to spending the rest of my days with this person, we did not need legalities to bind us. So yeah the benefits pushed us over “the edge,” (that and not wanting to fake being married again if one of us ends up in the hospital again), but marriage has changed nothing between us except sending me into a rage when people act like not changing my last name was a bizarre thing to do.

I guess I don’t think the leap to marriage is so huge from living together—you’re already going to have all kinds of problems detangling from someone you’re living with, the piece of paper adds a legal element to it, but either way you’ll be splitting joint assets. A lot of gay people want marriage badly because they WANT to be able to divorce if need be, divorce can be a real benefit when you have a lot of shared assets or kids together.

TL;DR version, why is marriage so different from contracting for stuff? I don’t see the problem with marrying for reasons other than wanting a life long commitment if you already have a life long commitment.

Comment #46: Geekasaurus  on  07/16  at  03:42 PM

I got married at 25, but my marriage would have turned out a lot differently had I gotten married at 18.
Vice versa here.  I don’t advise getting married at 18, but there are some advantages.

Comment #47: lonespark  on  07/16  at  03:45 PM

Maybe the vast majority of people get married for “irrational reasons” (or rather based on emotional motivations).  But I’m pretty sure a larger percentage of people who get married stay married because of purely rational, economic, or pragmatic concerns. 

I think conforming is underrated, personally (for the reasons Amanda mentioned.)

As for the Andrew Sullivan idea of having a piece of paper that makes you stick it out—well, I am somewhat okay with the idea that society may have some (small) interest in keeping you married some of the time, but IMO that need is more than amply addressed by all the various people in your life who know you and can have some perspective on whether you’re making a mistake or not. Most people who’ve been together long enough to get married know enough to avoid “cavalier” breakups. Dragging the law into it seems unnecessarily authoritarian and punitive, and certainly the current divorce laws are overkill.

Comment #48: t-ster  on  07/16  at  03:46 PM

And re: gambling—it’s just as rational to spend X dollars gambling if gambling gives you as much pleasure as something else on which you’d spend X dollars.

Personally, I’d rather have something that (a) lasts or (b) is useful.  That’s why I don’t gamble, and why I have difficulty spending a lot of money on fancy food or vacations.  At least with the latter, you get photos/unusual memories. 

But, hey, if you’ve got the money to spend and you really enjoy it, go gambling.  As long as you assume that you will lose your money, you won’t be disappointed and you may even be pleasantly surprised.

Comment #49: Kirjava  on  07/16  at  03:49 PM

Very well done, Amanda.  Many of the reasons for marriage you cite parallel the reasons people have children.  Expectation, ego, social status, fear, and pleasure.  Parenthood (especially of the quasi-voluntary variety) is another sacred cow in desperate need of tipping.  Of course to do that is to cue the gnashing of teeth over declining birthrates and oh noez who will take care of the old people!

Comment #50: DonnaDiva  on  07/16  at  03:51 PM

Two unrelated comments:

1)  Didn’t another blogger recently get married, or announce she is getting married?  How does that fit into this equation?

2)  As for gambling, my issue isn’t with the gambling, it is with the state support/profiting from it, and the advertising/encouraging.  Look at lottery advertising, it is an effort, in my opinion, by the state to encourage the less well educated to be separated from their money.  It is distasteful.

Comment #51: James  on  07/16  at  03:52 PM

Another reason for getting hitched: you’re officially a unit, and you have permission to put your partner first (and vice versa) over your genetic/origin family.  This is a super compelling reason—especially if you have the PILs from hell, overbearing parents, or people who generally think they have say over you in some inappropriate and tenacious way.  Once you’re married, society looks askance at mean in-laws, and gives you permission to put your primary relationship above your familial relationships.  Even mean in-laws know this and develop a sense of shame when they are bullying and controlling. That is irrelevant for people with nice families, but I’m guessing it’s a pretty common motivator/situation.  Then again, you also get stuck with extra familial obligations and expectations, so depending on the situation, it may not be a decent trade-off.

Comment #52: t-ster  on  07/16  at  03:54 PM

To your first point, I still fail to see in the entertainment in gambling.

Comment #53: sirkowski  on  07/16  at  03:57 PM

“then the legal system provides a fine-tuned process for dividing custody and property.”

I have never met anyone whose experience with family court left them calling it ‘fine-tuned’ who didn’t have everything already figured out between themselves going into proceedings.  “Best interests of the child” is not exactly a scientific term.  It’ll provide more asset-protection than a handshake if that’s what you’re concerned about, yes, but it’s not a sure enough thing that I’d be comfortable citing it as a rider in a pro-“You’re too lazy to leave me” case.

It may make it less likely that you get on the rollercoaster, but honestly?  That’s not always a good thing.  Staying in a relationship just because of the pain-in-the-ass factor involved in getting out of it is terribly unlikely to lead to anything positive in the long run.  Sometimes the interest is rekindled, but a lot of times it just leads to everyone involved wishing they hadn’t wasted years of their life in a broken relationship.  Making it more difficult than absolutely necessary to regain your legal autonomy is just not something I can get behind, never mind see it as a big honking pro to marriage.  It seems far better to leave it up to the judgment of the individuals involved whether or not they want to be together, rather than banking on the difficulty of leaving making the relationship seem like the lesser of two evils.

Comment #54: preying mantis  on  07/16  at  03:58 PM

sirkowski, I think entertainment is subjective.  I fail to see the entertainment in, say, bungee jumping or whatnot, but pepople get more or less pleasure from adrenaline rushes/fear.  Some pepole get off on risk, and are willing to pay for that feeling.  However, I don’t understand people who gamble without setting limits on how long/how much they’ll spend, and don’t have a clear idea what that feeling is worth to them, and reevaluate how much they’re willing to spend on the fly—that to me, isn’t entertainment, it’s compulsion. Personally, the one time I gambled, I felt too creeped out watching the hordes of senior citizens chain smoking with their oxygen tanks, while blankly dropping money in the slots—they just looked so joyless, like they were passing time till they died or something.  That ruined some of the enjoyment factor for me (mainly the feeling that gambling is a glamorous pursuit of the young, rich, idle, and beautiful as if I was in a James Bond movie or something.)

Comment #55: t-ster  on  07/16  at  04:03 PM

Personally, I’d rather have something that (a) lasts or (b) is useful.

You probably don’t spend much money on musical theater or Jimmy Buffett concert tickets. 

Not criticzin’.  For some folks pointless entertainment is an oxymoron.  To each his own.

Comment #56: MiddleageLiberal  on  07/16  at  04:04 PM

I completely agree with Amanda’s observations (and her obs yesterday on the topic), even though I ultimately chose to go the married route (and I say this as a child of divorce who married another child of divorce).  Married with no wedding or name-change or diamond but married nevertheless, for both rational and non-rational reasons,* some of them mentioned above. 

But I happily co-habbed for over six years, never needing to marry, and I can admit that part of what fed that happiness was ego over not getting sucked into the institutional-conformist pack.  We shouldn’t forget that being a “better feminist” than other liberal women also has an ego component, one that richly rewards certain personality types (let me be the first to admit my pettiness). But the “better feminist” trip eventually didn’t overcome the bullshit we had to put up with re. our relationship, in my case.  We can’t do anything about that re. our decision not to have kids**, but we could mitigate some of it, and we did.  I decided to ego out by boasting about my “feminist” marriage instead of my non-marriage, I suppose (and is “feminist marriage” an oxymoron?  I sort of wanted to find out). Yes, it was a throwing in of the towel, absolutely—political energies have been redirected elsewhere.  Years on, no change in our relationship or my salary/free time for the worst, and no regrets, but for the odd guilty twinge whenever I read this blog (as intended).  But I have respect both for those who have the will/common sense to avoid marriage altogether, and for those who marry with good judgement and good success (though who knows if that latter description will fit me later down the line? Not all married people trust in the forever line).

* Here in Canada the health-insurance reason and the “it’s not fair to gay couples” reasons don’t apply, of course, so neither was a factor.

** Even my husband gets pressured to have kids, by other male co-workers.

Comment #57: Ranylt  on  07/16  at  04:12 PM

As for the Andrew Sullivan idea of having a piece of paper that makes you stick it out—well, I am somewhat okay with the idea that society may have some (small) interest in keeping you married some of the time, but IMO that need is more than amply addressed by all the various people in your life who know you and can have some perspective on whether you’re making a mistake or not. Most people who’ve been together long enough to get married know enough to avoid “cavalier” breakups. Dragging the law into it seems unnecessarily authoritarian and punitive, and certainly the current divorce laws are overkill.

Thanks for saying this so well.

Comment #58: asdf  on  07/16  at  04:25 PM

I’m on the side of the folks who got married so their next-of-kin was someone they actually liked and trusted.  Now, if I could designate a group of friends as my official “family” and if we had universal health care, I think it would have been a close call between further cohabitation and getting married.

Comment #59: RP  on  07/16  at  04:28 PM

These threads get tiresome really quickly

Gosh. Too bad you are stuck here forever.

Comment #60: fastandsloppy  on  07/16  at  04:30 PM

I know you know this, Amanda, but this hammering of this point is just pissing me off.  I’m a lesbian cancer survivor.  My partner has excellent health insurance.  I will soon have none as a result of our desire to cohabitate.  I am leaving my job with benefits* so we can live under one roof rather than in 2 different cities.  Her employer does not offer benefits to any couples who are not legally married so I will have to scramble to find some kind of coverage while paying a small fortune each month for COBRA.  Losing coverage would mean that I would never be able to get health insurance again.  Meanwhile, our beloved (choke) Governor Pawlenty is doing what he can to destroy state sponsored health care while fighting legalizing gay marriage as hard as he can. 

So, screw everyone who can just dismiss the legal benefits of marriage while knowing full well that you have that option when the shit hits the fan.

*Her job is tenured and safe.  My employer is laying people off and struggling to make ends meet.  There’s no choice about which one of us should quit our jobs so we can be together.

Comment #61: BadKitty  on  07/16  at  04:31 PM

Amanda seems to assume that the only valid basis for deciding to marry is one’s own individual self-interest. If that’s all she thinks that matters, I’m not surprised she that expects never to wed. A marriage that works is not for the selfish.

But if you take seriously the idea that you marry at least as much FOR OTHERS—i.e., in the interests of your potential legal partner, and those of any children you might generate or adopt. 

I would actually maintain that reflective, responsible adults fully recognize that marriage is more about social duty than some sort of exercise in self-actualization. That doesn’t mean it isn’t personally deeply satisfying. It just isn’t all about you.

I’m not sure why a liberal or a feminist should *a priori* and absolutely reject the notion of social obligation, even given the recognition that the obligation has historically been to women’s disadvantage.

Comment #62: wapsie  on  07/16  at  04:33 PM

insert “...then marriage doesn’t look at all like a foolish or undesirable thing” after “adopt”. Apologies.

Comment #63: wapsie  on  07/16  at  04:35 PM

Or, if you don’t want to have people have to formalize it, how on earth do you determine who is entitled to such benefits and who is not?

How about making them rights and not privileges, to start with?  Why should someone be your spouse to visit you in the hospital?  If I want person X to visit me, then that should be up to my discretion.  Health insurance should be universal.  The government shouldn’t incentivize marriage with tax breaks.

The hardest thing to disentangle is the property distribution in the event of a death or separation. But other privileges we attach to marriage should be strongly questioned, especially since not everyone can or will get married and obtain these privileges.

Comment #64: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/16  at  04:49 PM

Yes but wapsie, Amanda has just spent like 1,000 words saying how marriage isn’t a foolish or undesirable thing. Why not engage with the argument at hand? I think you make a good point about the social duty aspect of marriage. Now, for me that’s part of the problem - why do we, as a society, outsource the creation of social capital to these tight little isolated units? Taking into consideration that most of the actual work of creating said social capital falls on the shoulders of economically dependent (or at least less independent) women, there’s your answer about why, from a feminist perspective, marriage is not a undesirable institution. Your take?

Comment #65: MarinaS  on  07/16  at  04:55 PM

I assert that building a happy, healthy relationship is something to be proud of and something worth celebrating.

I just want to double agree that there’s nothing wrong with having ego needs, or even having people celebrate a relationship.  Or a house-warming or a birthday.  That said, the way we celebrate relationships really points to some of the problems with marriage.  We celebrate marriage, and more to the point, we celebrate longevity, as if we’re celebrating them surviving something.  wink

Unhappy marriages get the same celebrations as happy ones.  A wedding that’s only happening because the couple realizes they’re not in love and are desperately hoping the wedding will revive the passion makes their relationship more valued in our society than a long-term unmarried couple’s, even if the latter has an enviably happy relationship.

I don’t know if there’s an easy way to fix this, but it’s something we should take very seriously.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/16  at  04:57 PM

He quoted a friend who told him, “The reason why that piece of paper matters so much is because one day you’re going to have a fight so bad, you’re going to want to walk out and never come back.  And the only thing keeping you there is that piece of paper and the fact that it’s too damn much trouble to get rid of it.  Six months or a year after that, when things are better and you’re so glad you didn’t walk out that day and you’re still married, that’s when you’ll realize why that piece of paper matters.”

I’d put that into the “avoidance of fear” category, and my experience is that this is just a fantasy.  Maybe in a slim minority of cases, couples on the verge of a break-up get back together and it really works out.  But I’ve never seen it happen.  Making it harder and longer and sadder to leave, so you’re older and more tired when it finally ends, doesn’t strike me as a great idea. 

That’s why I’m such a defender of no-fault divorce and other ways to make marriage easy to get out of.  People marry, as I said, for very romantic reasons and then when they don’t want to be married anymore, they’re in a bad situation. 

If I were the bad guy who wants to make married people look like fools that I’m portrayed as, I’d probably say they had it coming, but I don’t.  I think that people should have a right to change their mind, in no small part because no one makes decisions based on pure rationality and complete information.  Most of us think our love will last forever, until it doesn’t.  I fail to see why punishing people who find their relationships are ending in a misplaced effort to get them to work it out does anyone any good.

Comment #67: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/16  at  05:02 PM

BadKitty, I think your situation is abominable, but my outrage is directed at the fact that any cancer patient should go uninsured for whatever reason under whatever circumstances. I can’t explain to you how inhumane, cruel, callous and malevolent that seems to me, as someone who’s always lived in countries that have healthcare provision. Yes, your rights as a gay person should absolutely be respected; but it’s your basic human right to life saving care that’s my no. 1 mind-fuck moment here. I realise that I have no right to set those priorities on your behalf, so I’m not trying to convert you to my point of view (I don’t have a right to one) - just hoping that might explain why I might seem insensitive to the insurance aspect of marriage equality in the US context.

Comment #68: MarinaS  on  07/16  at  05:03 PM

It’s also the case that the prefrontal cortex, the bit of the brain usually associated with reason, is not terribly good at keeping more than about 7 pieces of relevant information in its buffers. Beyond that threshold, it gets confused.

Probably why we invented writing.

Comment #69: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/16  at  05:07 PM

TheLady - My comment was directed at no one commenter in particular.  I’m sorry if it seemed like I was attacking you personally.

Comment #70: BadKitty  on  07/16  at  05:07 PM

I’m glad my wife and I made the decision to marry in a more or less traditional way.  I believe she is glad as well.  That said, I completely respect those who, for whatever reason(s), choose not to marry.  What I don’t get is why Amanda, who generally seems an open-minded person, displays such contempt for people whose choices differ from hers in this regard.

Comment #71: Gator90  on  07/16  at  05:07 PM

There is also for most couples the intention/expectation that they’ll have kids and (let’s face it) the desire to rope the husband/father into sticking around to support said kids.

Comment #72: Frederick R  on  07/16  at  05:11 PM

My decision to marry was deeply infused with economic incentives; a lot of the details of running a household together are much easier to manage in the context of a legal commitment to long-term cohabitation.  It’s a way of establishing predictability, both for banks (to lend us mortgage money) and families (to support our moving for me to go to school).  This is not trivial.

Comment #73: Punditus Maximus  on  07/16  at  05:12 PM

Probably why we invented writing.

Er, sorry to nitpick, but even if you’ve got things written down your brain still needs to maintain concious awareness of what it is reading. Unless you have photographic memory and instant recall, by the time you’ve read as far down as this comment you probably can’t recite the first 6 comments in this thread verbatim - and that’s because in the abcense of a concious effort to commit them to long term memory, your prefrontal cortex has expunged them in favour of more recent and relevant information. The same happens when you’re comparing brochures for cars or whatever - you’re probably not going to be able to keep all the mental balls in the air long enough to make a “truly informed” decision.

See The Black Swan for another excellent exposition of the uselesness of data and how it’s different to information/knowledge. Or Predictably Irrational, which is a hugely fun read as well as a good catalogue of how differently our minds work from how we like to think they work. Rationality is coming under attack from a lot of sides at the moment, primarily behavioural economics but also brain sciences and psychology.

Comment #74: MarinaS  on  07/16  at  05:18 PM

Now that Marriage generally considered a romantic function of course the vast majority of us don’t enter into it for logical reasons.

I guess what I find interesting is that when the reason for marriage disappeared, marriage didn’t.  It morphed. 

The reason is that it morphed is that women got more liberation, and perversely, love turned into a way to incentivize them to enter the old-fashioned patriarchal institution.  I think a lot of progressives want marriage to be something that’s permanently past the patriarchal implications, but far from it.  Wives are still tasked, in most cases, with wifework.  Cleaning, cooking, caretaking, etc.  By and large, it’s an institution entered for love, but functions by funneling a woman’s energies to the benefit of her husband, who benefits. 

Ironically, the more romantic it is, then, the more the bride is probably getting the shaft.  The big, romantic wedding is, in my opinion, a direct result of not just capitalism, but a stronger and stronger need to appeal to women’s egos in order to get them to get married at all, when they’re going to find it results in a lot of uncompensated labor and heartache.  There was a commentator at Salon today who said she loves business travel, because that means that she goes from an 80 hour total work week to a 50 hour total work week, because she doesn’t have to cater to her family.  Like it or not, this is still the average experience of marriage.

I think that’s why a lot of progressives are attached to the no-frills, “we’re doing it for the insurance”, go to the judge wedding.  The hope is that by not making this a party about how girly the bride is, and avoiding the wedding-industrial complex in general, they can start off on a more egalitarian foot.  Which isn’t an unreasonable thing to think at all.

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/16  at  05:18 PM

“Why should someone be your spouse to visit you in the hospital?  If I want person X to visit me, then that should be up to my discretion.”

I believe it generally is, unless you’re incapacitated.  Which is kind of the thing.  This is one of those rights where it only comes into play when something’s gone pretty pear-shaped, and people are vulnerable.

Comment #76: preying mantis  on  07/16  at  05:18 PM

Er, sorry to nitpick, but even if you’ve got things written down your brain still needs to maintain concious awareness of what it is reading.

Fair enough, though I suppose I was thinking of writing down a row of numbers and adding them up.

Comment #77: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/16  at  05:27 PM

“Why should someone be your spouse to visit you in the hospital?  If I want person X to visit me, then that should be up to my discretion.”

I believe it generally is, unless you’re incapacitated.

And sometimes you’re incapacitated and don’t realize it.  My partner came to visit me while I was in the ICU right after surgery.  She attempted to sneak by the nurses at the Catholic hospital by saying she was my sister.  The nurse came in and asked if it was OK if my sister came in to visit.  In my morphine-induced haze, I muttered, “Wha???  I don’t have a sister”. Oops.

Comment #78: BadKitty  on  07/16  at  05:46 PM

Agree with what you just said above, both about the “more romantic it is, then the more the bride is probably getting the shaft” and the value of the doing-it-for-the-insurance wedding.  To extend the latter point, I’d like to add that there are even more legal benefits than just insurance: you get an automatic legal and medical proxy, an agent who can represent your interests where necessary without being hassled. That’s really valuable at times, more so than just the insurance benefits.

Comment #79: Theaetetus  on  07/16  at  05:47 PM

<quote>I believe it generally is, unless you’re incapacitated.  Which is kind of the thing.  This is one of those rights where it only comes into play when something’s gone pretty pear-shaped, and people are vulnerable.</quote>

Yeah. My wife’s ring and my ring have magic powers that disintegrate any hassle from bureaucrats, lawyers, physicians, etc. I think those powers are also one of the biggest arguments for gay marriage, too.

Comment #80: Theaetetus  on  07/16  at  05:50 PM

Er…so people would have to go to the courthouse and sign some sort of contract in front of witnesses which would allow them to have such benefits?  And they wouldn’t be allowed to enter into such a contract with anybody else until they had legally dissolved the previous contract?  And there would be rules for how the contract could be dissolved?  I asked this on the previous thread, and I’ll ask it again here.  How is this functionally distinct from “marriage”?

Amanda already answered with the point that healthcare should be conferred to everyone but even if we still have to deal with insurance companies it doesn’t have to be identical to a marriage contract. 

The insurance company should just send you a form that you, the other person (the one you want covered and/or to be the medical decision maker), and one witness sign. Mail it back in, done. It should be less complicated than signing a lease.  There doesn’t need to be someone “ordained” to oversee the procedure nor does the government need to know.  Then if the arrangement needs to be dissolved, either member of the agreement can write in (call/e-mail) and say “This arrangement is no longer needed.” No reasons, no petitioning, simple. For everything else, it’s called a will.

Comment #81: hypatia  on  07/16  at  05:58 PM

Theaetetus, use “blockquote” rather than “quote”. This is HTML in contrast to BBcode.

Comment #82: asdf  on  07/16  at  06:07 PM

we celebrate longevity, as if we’re celebrating them surviving something.

“What’s the gift for the 50th Wedding Anniversary?” l

“Gold”

“Gold, gee…....What the gift for the 100th Anniversary?”

“The Congressional Medal of Honor.”

Comment #83: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/16  at  06:27 PM

Actually, Amanda, what we know of the earliest forms of the Egyptian writing systems, writing was in that case invented so that the king could have an inventory of what he owned, cause it isn’t good to be king until you have an inventory to guide the kind of celebrations you can throw in honor of the Gods. grin

Comment #84: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/16  at  06:32 PM

He quoted a friend who told him, “The reason why that piece of paper matters so much is because one day you’re going to have a fight so bad, you’re going to want to walk out and never come back.  And the only thing keeping you there is that piece of paper and the fact that it’s too damn much trouble to get rid of it.  Six months or a year after that, when things are better and you’re so glad you didn’t walk out that day and you’re still married, that’s when you’ll realize why that piece of paper matters.”

That friend is a fucking moron. If the only thing that brings you back to a relationship after a bad fight is the piece of paper, then the relationship is too far gone to save. And if the person who left after the fight needs the piece of paper (and by extension the idea that a divorce is too much of a pain in the ass) as a excuse to come back to the relationship, then he or she is a fucking moron as well. The piece of paper doesn’t define the relationship—the people in it define the relationship.

Comment #85: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  07/16  at  06:33 PM

“I found myself reflecting on the fetish for rationality that dominates our culture.  Or the fetish for trying to quantify everything into cost/benefit analysis, with the only acceptable reasons for doing something being that it makes/saves money or improves basic physical health.”

This is unfortunately pervasive in abortion debates, where I see pro-choice people falling into the trap of arguing solely from the point of view of a woman who is poor, who has a fetus that will not survive anyway, that has no family to help support the child, so abortion is “the right choice” for her and so should be available to her. 

I don’t mean to say this is not a valid thought process, but it is not the only one that can end in “I’m going to have an abortion.”  Focusing only on this reasoning makes every abortion subject to veto power if the reasons are deemed not good enough.

Reliance on these “rational” reasons figures strongly in limitations on the right to abortion based on factors like maternal age or cause of pregnancy (rape or incest), or waiting periods, or having to look at pictures of fetuses or get an ultrasound.

Look at how the anti-choicers love/hate the phrase “abortion on demand.”  It’s because it embodies abortion as something you can just walk in and obtain, for your own reasons, no questions asked, no requirement to prove you need it or deserve it, no hoops to go through, no particular decision process mandated.  Your choice, however you decide to make that choice.

They don’t want you to make this decision based on your own feelings.  Don’t feel like having a baby?  Too bad, you had sex, you don’t get to decide now.  Fuck your feelings.  Here is the way you’re supposed to think about it, they say, and unless you have a really really good reason or really really sad story, you are going to have the baby.

“I ask these hard questions because marriage is a hugely tempting sacred cow.”

Agreed.  When you weed out the rationalizations, it is possible for people to then discuss their real reasons, which may be practical, ethereal, religious, moral, romantic, social, egotistical, whatever.  And as you said, there’s nothing wrong with that.  The lie is in attributing things to marriage itself that aren’t really there.

Comment #86: oldfeminist  on  07/16  at  06:46 PM

Amanda’s comment @ 4:18 reminded me of a wedding I attended a while back. During the reception, a friend of the bride’s stood up to give a toast… standard college stories. At one point, friend said something like “Now that the wedding’s over, you’re a Wife. You’re a Wife now, don’t forget! tee hee.” It surprised me because I usually run in the egalitarian progressive crowd, as you put it, and forgot how pervasive this view is. Made me sad for the friend. Though the newly-married couple don’t incline that way.

And neither do I or my husband - and reading this post and others (though I think I missed some) has been really helpful - getting the sacred cow we’re riding tipped over can hurt, but I think it’s useful to take some time to reflect about why we’re hurt. So thanks.

Oh, and I’m proud to say that Colorado has a new Designated Beneficiary law.  It’s a start!

Comment #87: Shiny  on  07/16  at  06:52 PM

I haven’t seen here the reason why my fiancee and I are getting married in three weeks. It isn’t for any of those romantic reasons people throw out there, most of which are just gussied up old gender hierarcy, nor is it the fairly lame answers provided as “rational” such as taxes, which I agree isn’t a strong enough incentive.

My fiancee and I want to make a public declaration both to our friends/family and legally to the world at large that we are on one team. Anything you can say to me you can say to her. She’s allowed to look at my bank statements, my insurance forms, and in all other ways to act for me in my absence because I trust her implicitly to have my best interests at heart.

It’s nice that in this cold world I can trust someone that much, so we’re having a (very low-key and informal) party to celebrate that fact. We are NOT having some big performance for the benefit of others where we use conspicuous consumption and male priveledge to show possession. Blech. This has led to a lot of angst among our family members, who say things like “why are you even getting married if you don’t (fill in the blank with some outdated custom)” but we say very politely that it isn’t about them and they certainly don’t have to attend if they don’t feel like it. What we’ve been struck by is the weird possession lots of people (especially but not exclusively) parents feel toward the date. But we are resolute.

So to me this is truly romantic, just not in the sense that the word is used in our society. Instead, hopefully, in a real and more genuine way.

Comment #88: ecpyrosis  on  07/16  at  07:04 PM

On the hospital thing, it’s not just who can visit you, it’s who gets the medical information and who gets to make decisions while you’re incapacitated (which will be at least part of the time if you’re in for more than 24 hours). Absent a health-care proxy that has been officially acknowledged and accepted by all hospital personnel it’s pretty their pick whom to consider next of kin. (Just try getting them not to listen to sibling(s) about morphine levels)

Comment #89: paul  on  07/16  at  09:45 PM

For instance, take the entire bullshit discourse about free market economics, that falsely assumes both that people are capable of knowing everything they need to to make strictly rational decisions, and that they mostly will make strictly rational decisions, and if they don’t do that, they are bad people who deserve what they get.  Well, strictly rational decisions are .0001% of decisions, so building our entire economic system, cultural mores, and merit assessments on that model is a stupid idea. [/Amanda]

Three or four years ago, I read about a scientific analysis of actual human behavior in actual capitalist societies—and I totally neglected to write down some reference to that article. All I can remember is, it was online, and from some progressive science magazine—not an actual scientific journal, but a high-end thing like Scientific American used to be decades ago, only with a distinctly progressive bent.

Anyway, the article mentioned the reaction of mainstream “economists” to the study’s findings—shock, horror, dismay. “The situation this describes is like being mugged!” they said—essentially the study showed that most people are deciding almost randomly, based on taking the economic opportunities they can find, rather than behaving like good capitalists and maximizing their return-on-investment strategically.

Um, yeah, I thought, welcome to the working class. It is a lot like being mugged, every day and every year of your life.

Not that the situation described was irrational, nor that it implied any kind of logical impossibility of an economy structured on imbalanced returns—just that the actual premise of mainstream, academic economics is that in principle fair exchanges are the norm. Systematic exploitation doesn’t exist in ideal academic economics, by definition.

Anyway, does anyone else recognize this article? It would have come out in 2005 or so, is all I can remember.

Comment #90: Mark Foxwell  on  07/16  at  09:49 PM

ecpyrosis: re. relatives’ possessiveness of The Date: because the Ottawa City Hall courtroom only allows 7 people for the judicial spiel (which would have meant leaving out a step-parent or a sibling), and because I didn’t want that much attention (and like such intimate moments kept as private as possible), husband and I each brought an old friend as witnesses and told our parents and siblings we’d see them at our house the next evening for an immediate-fam only after-supper (which we cooked for them—scandalous!). Still my mother tried to crash the ceremony despite our request and wishes.  It’s a small miracle she got the times wrong, and her machinations came to naught… 

Stick to yer guns.

Comment #91: Ranylt  on  07/16  at  09:57 PM

We got married because my wife was in the states on an L1 visa and her job was going away. We got divorced a few years later because we save money on taxes - even after the latest reforms. Somehow we made it through the next 10 years without a marriage certificate to call us back. We have gone through the legal process to give one another decision making over medical care, made wills to make sure material goods were accounted for, etc. Marriage seems so confused to me, especially for couples without kids. The idea that marriage is a public commitment hurts my head. When I was married I never wore a placard proclaiming my love and commitment. It hurts just as much - or little - to leave a long term cohabitation as a marriage, and the only people that really know are your friends. The main advantage of marriage is it automatically wraps up a bunch of legal things that otherwise need to be handled explicitly through granting powers of attorney, etc. That could change tomorrow with some pretty simple legislation.

Comment #92: Don N  on  07/16  at  10:29 PM

Mark Foxwell:

What’s kinda sad is that kind of analysis has been around for a long time. But it’s not mathematically tractable, at least not using the kinds of relatively simple tools mainstream economists use. So they stick with the models that can be computed, regardless of how much sense they make.

Economics didn’t use to be a prisoner of mediocre math—until the 60s or so, everybody recognized that the idealized perfect-information, frictionless, well-defined utility stuff was just an approximation, but then people started being able to get Results With Real Numbers In Them and the whole field went to sh*t, to the point where mainstream economists continually scoff at people for not acting in a way that accords with the simpleminded equations. (My father was an academic economist, and for the first 20 years of his career his math stopped around simple calculus.)

Comment #93: paul  on  07/16  at  10:51 PM

The problem is that there really are only so many people who can do stochastic calculus AND deal with human beings.

Comment #94: Punditus Maximus  on  07/16  at  11:04 PM

Getting back to the original question, I believe that getting married is done for rational emotional reasons. I have come to suspect any setting up of reason and emotion as opposites. They aren’t. The polarity I would pose is between health and sickness, e.g. a lot of the reasoning Republican Senators are using in their questioning of Sotomayor is quite sick (and sickening).

Anyway, I think, Amanda you’ve left out one of the biggest emotional reasons of all—story.

We humans are creatures of story. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that story-telling is what makes us human. We aren’t genes simply replicating themselves. We like to believe our lives have meaning and purpose. No one wants to go to their grave thinking their epitaph will read, “Well, he/she took up space.”

Marriage is about sex and it is about friendship, but it is also supremely about story, about the melding of the narratives of two lives to create one new one (while maintaining their individualities).

One of the most powerful and seldom talked about agendas that bring people together is the desire to do one’s parent’s relationship over, but better. Why do so many children of alcoholics end up pairing off? Cold reason and fear ought to drive them screaming in opposite directions. But quite often they connect, instead.

So, they say things like, “Oh, it’s just like I knew you my whole life.” “I feel so comfortable with you.” “You get me.” Because their stories follow a familiar (family) arc. Mom and Dad played the alcoholic game of Victim/Persecutor/Rescuer, but we will get it right.

Not likely. But what’s more important than healing one’s basic wounds and solving the puzzle of one’s story-born needs? It is that which gives our lives purpose and ennobles our struggles.

Can live-togethers share this need to act out and heal one’s family story? Sure. But one thing I sense is that living-together has, if ever so slightly, a one-foot-out-the-doorness to it, which adds an element of contingency to the story. Marriage, on the other hand, has a through-Hell-or-high-water cast to it that frames the story with a quite different context.

BTW, this site is now one of my favorites. It’s not often I get the chance to openly blaspheme…naw, I take that back, I do it Sunday mornings, too.

Comment #95: revrick  on  07/16  at  11:24 PM

We humans are creatures of story. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that story-telling is what makes us human. We aren’t genes simply replicating themselves. We like to believe our lives have meaning and purpose. No one wants to go to their grave thinking their epitaph will read, “Well, he/she took up space.”

Marriage is about sex and it is about friendship, but it is also supremely about story, about the melding of the narratives of two lives to create one new one (while maintaining their individualities).

I agree with you that story is important—far more important than most people even realize, as a matter of fact. But this?

But one thing I sense is that living-together has, if ever so slightly, a one-foot-out-the-doorness to it, which adds an element of contingency to the story. Marriage, on the other hand, has a through-Hell-or-high-water cast to it that frames the story with a quite different context.

The story is different, but I contend that it’s not better. That “hell or high water cast” you’re describing made both me and my ex-wife miserable for years longer than it should have—when we finally gave up and gave in to the fact that we weren’t right for each other and never were going to be, we both heaved a massive sigh of relief and got the fuck on with our lives. We actually get along now, which is more than I can say for when we were married.

I have no doubt that there are couples out there who will stay together until one of them dies and will enjoy every single moment of it. I hope that happens with Amy and me. But the chances of it are slim at best, and a system that places incredibly high expectations on the relationship and makes you feel guilty about acknowledging that it didn’t work (and has the added bonus of reinforcing patriarchal systems) doesn’t do anything in my view to make human life better. If anything, it adds unnecessary pressure and angst to lives that are already difficult enough as it is. You can get everything emotionally from cohabitation that you can from marriage, if the relationship is a good one, and anyone who tells you different is selling something.

Comment #96: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  07/17  at  01:15 AM

Amanda, maybe you like gambling not because it’s “fun” but because deep down you’re an un-self-aware conformist who just likes to follow the herd, and you’ve been _told_ it was fun by glitzy mass-media marketing.  And participating in the gaming-sex-adrenalo-industrial complex is a good way to have your conspicuous-consumerist ego stroked and flaunt your bourgeois privilege.  I mean, we all know those are the _real_ reasons why people choose to participate in that activity, right?  raspberry

Comment #97: FlipYrWhig  on  07/17  at  03:46 AM

Maybe in a slim minority of cases, couples on the verge of a break-up get back together and it really works out.  But I’ve never seen it happen.  Making it harder and longer and sadder to leave, so you’re older and more tired when it finally ends, doesn’t strike me as a great idea.

Definitely, definitely true. My parents should have split up after the first time my mom pulled the “I’m taking the kids and leaving” deal for a night. Now, 22 years and 24369235 horrible fights later, they’ve finally worked up the courage to get a divorce. That piece of paper ended up being such a barrier to their happiness - not to mention my and my siblings’ happiness, since we had to listen to the fighting every single day (not an exaggeration) and learned completely dysfunctional ways of dealing with conflict. Staying together for the kids indeed. If their relationship hadn’t been so officially sanctioned - both legally and by the approval of all their (conservative) friends and family - they would have broken up much earlier. They were always talking about maybe getting a separation or something that wouldn’t violate that stupid piece of paper.

Not that there aren’t plenty of functional marriages, or people who are relatively successful at ending theirs when they become dissatisfied, etc., etc. If people want to get married, it’s fine by me. Just that that bit about the piece of paper keeping people together is stupid.

Comment #98: Lauren O  on  07/17  at  03:51 AM

I don’t have a desire to get married. I do, however, have a desire to be in a long-term monogamous relationship, possibly for the rest of my life. When I look at it in terms of my own satisfaction, I see no reason to go through with legal paperwork or a big ceremony or anything.

The main reason I feel pressure to get legally married one day is just an extremely petty feeling that my relationship would somehow be better than other people’s if I did. I would win some sort of relationship contest that would prove I’m so smart and functional that I can conduct relationships better than other people can. Part of that is just my own pettiness, but part of that is that that’s sort of how marriage is posited in American society. It goes back to the bullshit Amanda mentioned originally about spinsters not being lovable, feminists just being bitter because they can’t get anyone to marry them, etc. I hate that I’ve internalized that kind of thinking!

Comment #99: Lauren O  on  07/17  at  04:04 AM

I agree with you [revrick on 07/16 at 06:24 PM] that story is important—far more important than most people even realize, as a matter of fact. But this?

[subquoting revrick] But one thing I sense is that living-together has, if ever so slightly, a one-foot-out-the-doorness to it, which adds an element of contingency to the story. Marriage, on the other hand, has a through-Hell-or-high-water cast to it that frames the story with a quite different context.[/revrick]

The story is different, but I contend that it’s not better. ....

I have no doubt that there are couples out there who will stay together until one of them dies and will enjoy every single moment of it. I hope that happens with Amy and me. But the chances of it are slim at best, and a system that places incredibly high expectations on the relationship and makes you feel guilty about acknowledging that it didn’t work (and has the added bonus of reinforcing patriarchal systems) doesn’t do anything in my view to make human life better. If anything, it adds unnecessary pressure and angst to lives that are already difficult enough as it is. You can get everything emotionally from cohabitation that you can from marriage, if the relationship is a good one, and anyone who tells you different is selling something.
Incertus, Nacho Daddy on 07/16 at 08:15 PM

Um, I don’t think revrick ever suggested that following through on the socially-endorsed narrative was better. On the contrary, I thought their whole point was that we, being creatures of narrative compulsion, rather mindlessly are drawn to the narrative structure we’ve been raised amidst and therefore irrationally follow the script. And those of us who resist at least to the extent of interposing some “contingency” as they put it are behaving somewhat more rationally, in the sense of making up our own rules for our particular situation instead of just following the script. Thus saying pretty much what you are saying.

But the other point is, we are narrative critters, and so this is a disorienting and therefore uncomfortable situation for us anyway. There is no perfect path to follow—either we follow the prescribed steps of the dance and thus replicate the missteps as well as the parts that work, or we have to think through our steps, which involves work and doubt.

Most everyone winds up mixing both strategies, more or less, and blaming whatever aspect they have a mind to at the moment for whatever misery may arise.

Comment #100: Mark Foxwell  on  07/17  at  08:43 AM

Lauren O wrote:

I don’t have a desire to get married. I do, however, have a desire to be in a long-term monogamous relationship, possibly for the rest of my life. When I look at it in terms of my own satisfaction, I see no reason to go through with legal paperwork or a big ceremony or anything.

The main reason I feel pressure to get legally married one day is just an extremely petty feeling that my relationship would somehow be better than other people’s if I did. I would win some sort of relationship contest that would prove I’m so smart and functional that I can conduct relationships better than other people can. Part of that is just my own pettiness, but part of that is that that’s sort of how marriage is posited in American society.

I’m pretty much of the same mindset, although I’m not a woman like Lauren.  Nevertheless I probably could’ve happily cohabitated with my beloved until death we did part, except for two things:

(1) My wife is a minister.  While being married is not a job requirement, shacking up with someone is a job disqualifier.

(2) My wife is not a U.S. citizen, we needed to get married for immigration purposes.

I’m not proud of (1).  It’s like I, like Lauren O, have capitulated to the dominant culture. 

There was no getting around (2), however.

Comment #101: ummeli  on  07/17  at  12:01 PM

Gambling to me would be a stressor rather than entertainment. But for those who like it (not those who are addicted; that’s another thing) gambling is exactly that…money spent for entertainment. In the long run, the house always wins. Never bet anything you’re not willing to lose.

I’m willing to *spend* money but not so much willing to *lose* money either by chance or by being outfoxed by another person or institution. Thus, I loathe gambling, and prefer to spend my entertainment dollar on clubbing and good food. So basically the money is spent on food, liquor, service by staff, use of dance floor, use of pool tables. You know…base, vile pleasures. wink lol

OT-I don’t know what happened to our bartender last night but he was MAD. Really steamed. I hope he feels better today!

People do what they do for a mixture of rational and irrational reasons. Many things get combined and evaluated, and the balance tips one way or the other. Such is humanity.

Comment #102: Creepy Doll  on  07/17  at  12:08 PM

Cognitive science can tell us a lot about decision making and offers a whole literature on bounded rationality.

Herbert Simon pointed out that humans lack the cognitive resources to maximize: we usually do not know the relevant probabilities of outcomes, we can rarely evaluate all outcomes with sufficient precision, and our memories are weak and unreliable.

The decision to marry may, in many cases, be arrived at using a strategy of satisficing rather than of optimizing value.  Is marriage “good enough” in terms of providing for a range of needs?  It can be very rational to satisfice when uncertainty is high.

Of course, one of the consequences of satisficing (in economic discourse) is that you may encounter a substitute good at a later date that better approaches maximizing your needs.  In a purely economic context, you would trade-up. But once in a marriage “trading-up” is generally frowned upon.

Comment #103: Randomizer  on  07/17  at  12:35 PM

I won’t lie; I enjoy needling people on the question of why get married when cohabitation fills the need to be with your lover just as well.  I’m probably being a little sadistic in doing so,

Oh, come on, Amanda. You’re just on some level slightly disappointed that you were born too late for cohabitation to be an actually shocking and outre choice. Since merely living together is not in and of itself enough to be a boho, fuck-the-Man, in-your-face gesture, you have to escalate by pointing out to married people how fucking stupid they are.

And yes, I’m being harsh. I’m involved in the movement for same-sex marriage and, while I fully agree that there are many queer critiques of marriage and whether SSM is a good idea, few things are more goddamn tiresome than listening to straight people, who could marry their live-in tomorrow if they felt like it, preening about how silly marriage is.

Comment #104: mythago  on  07/17  at  01:37 PM

What @mythago said, to wit:

few things are more goddamn tiresome than listening to straight people, who could marry their live-in tomorrow if they felt like it, preening about how silly marriage is.

Comment #105: Randomizer  on  07/17  at  02:30 PM

I want to underline the importance of marriage as a social contract/signifier, something that you’ve left off the list.  This means marriage can be good or bad, depending on what it signifies.  Wife as property? Bad.  But I think it’s important to have a way to signal to the broader culture that this person is now considered family to you.  The point someone made upthread about switching primary attachment from a blood-family member to another, non-related human being is important.  If something happens to my husband, I get to be the default decision maker.  Not his parents, to the relief of both of us.  There is something important about recognizing when family bonds change - marriage, birth, death, etc.  We ritualize the moments of major life changes.  And I think it’s kinda fun to do so - I like celebrating those changes with people. 

Now, cohabitating partners may have made that family-bond with each other, may have professed internal commitments in a myriad of ways, but unless there is some kind of public statement of those commitments, how am I, as an outsider, going to know who the other person has chosen to be family? That bond and trust is not something that happens with every lover, or even every cohabitation. Marriage signifies a commitment that is different from “sharing a life together.”  It also means that these people have chosen to be publicly responsible and accountable to one another for more than just split utility costs.

Marriage, in contemporary American culture, is a way of redefining family bonds that is broadly accepted and easily understood.  It’s useful.

Comment #106: bluish  on  07/17  at  02:43 PM

revrick:  “I have come to suspect any setting up of reason and emotion as opposites.”

Good point.  In the MBTI, thinking and feeling are both rational processes, that is, they embody analysis and comparing one thing to another to arrive at a conclusion.  The things being compared can be moral principles or emotional states rather than facts and logical arguments.

Comment #107: oldfeminist  on  07/17  at  02:47 PM

Repeatedly celebrating your bravery in living together _is_ a kind of an affected and retro “radical” statement.  Kind of like continually returning to how enjoyable it is to Freak Out The Squares by piercing your nose or not shaving your legs.

Comment #108: FlipYrWhig  on  07/17  at  02:51 PM

Now, cohabitating partners may have made that family-bond with each other, may have professed internal commitments in a myriad of ways, but unless there is some kind of public statement of those commitments, how am I, as an outsider, going to know who the other person has chosen to be family?

Why do you need to know? What business is it of wider society who is family with whom?

In a tight-knit community, everybody will be aware of the relevant pair bondings without needing to refer to a ceremony. In an atomised society, the information becomes meaningless because the pair bondings are no longer underpinning the social order.

Comment #109: MarinaS  on  07/17  at  03:43 PM

What business is it of wider society who is family with whom?

Here’s just one example:  What if a person suddenly becomes incapacitated and needs a dramatic medical treatment, and the doctors have to have someone give consent to that?  Patriarchal/traditional marriage is the most common way to create an arrangement that deems two people to be reciprocally committed in terms of deeply personal decisions like these, but such arrangements need not and ought not be limited to patriarchal or traditional people.  I think that’s what bluish is getting at.  Some kind of designation of “family” or mutuality or union seems both desirable and pragmatic in contexts including law, medicine, and finance.  Hetero Marriage should properly be just a subset of domestic unions that have marriage-like properties and protections.  (This is my ‘civil unions for all’ stand, open to non-sexual BFFs like Felix and Oscar, Kate and Allie, and Bert and Ernie.)

Comment #110: FlipYrWhig  on  07/17  at  04:08 PM

Where in your example does that person have to be “family”? Here’s another example: you’re unmarried. You suddenly become incapacitated and need a dramatic medical treatment, and the only person to give “next of kin” consent to that is your parent, with whom you happen to violently disagree on issues of resussitation or organ donation, and who is unlikely to give the direction you would want given were you alive. In that case drawing on the pool of “family” for decision making on your behalf is a marked violation of your human rights. None of these issues are unambiguously solved by marriage or civil union, so insisting on marriage as the solution to medical or financial dilemmas is a post hoc rationalisation, not the real reason why people would choose to enter into that state.

Comment #111: MarinaS  on  07/17  at  04:59 PM

TheLady:

Why do you need to know? What business is it of wider society who is family with whom?

In a tight-knit community, everybody will be aware of the relevant pair bondings without needing to refer to a ceremony. In an atomised society, the information becomes meaningless because the pair bondings are no longer underpinning the social order.

Most people live in a community that is neither tight-knit nor atomized.  Meeting someone new at work or on the block or at a party or a pub, you won’t have all their information.  If they want you to know they’re married, wearing a ring or talking about a husband or wife conveys that information.

You seem to think that, so long as I know I’m committed to my husband, and he knows he’s committed to me, that that should be the end of it.  I want other people to know we’re committed to each other.  That’s my choice.

Pair bonding is widespread among humans.  Marriage is the social norm for this, and it’s convenient on both social and legal levels.  I kept my last name and we didn’t do anything differently after the ceremony other than wear rings (my parents’ wedding rings, given to me by my mother).

This doesn’t mean marriage is the right choice for you, or anyone else who doesn’t “buy it.”  My reasons for doing it aren’t meant to apply to anyone else, and I think anyone who prescribes marriage (or not-marriage!) to anyone else is wrong. 

Arguing the validity of particular rationalizations or reasons?  Sure.  Deciding for someone else?  No.

Comment #112: oldfeminist  on  07/17  at  06:09 PM

Where in your example does that person have to be “family”?

Maybe I wasn’t clear—perhaps because I was following bluish’s point by borrowing his or her language.  By designating a person as your partner and letting the world know it, you make them “family.”  In my opinion, that can be a very expansive concept.

you’re unmarried. You suddenly become incapacitated and need a dramatic medical treatment, and the only person to give “next of kin” consent to that is your parent, with whom you happen to violently disagree on issues of resussitation or organ donation, and who is unlikely to give the direction you would want given were you alive.  In that case drawing on the pool of “family” for decision making on your behalf is a marked violation of your human rights.

Right, of course, that’s what I was meaning to get at too.  In such a case, it would be a good idea to have entered into A Relationship With Some Features Of Marriage so that you can protect your interests.  That’s what I meant by the idea of making a new “family”—you and a trusted partner—by which you can have some mutual security.

None of these are the reason to Get Married.  But reasons like these contribute to why having some kind of official pact or union recognized by state and civil authorities might still be a good idea.  And that was where I began:  your question was “What business is it of wider society who is family with whom?”  Phrasing it that way makes it seem like a matter of nosy neighbors peeping through the blinds.  But “wider society” includes other kinds of people too.  I want “wider society” to know who my partner is because that wider society includes people like EMTs and judges whom I’d like to respect my wishes and principles, and if something terrible happens to me, my partner can be counted on to speak for me.

In other words, some form of paired civil union or pact would continue to be a good and helpful thing, even if it weren’t called “marriage,” even if it had nothing to do with conjugal/sexual passion.  Some of these things were brought home to me when I overheard a conversation between co-workers who were gay, unattached, and of opposite sexes, joking that they should “marry” so that there would be _someone_ to get the retirement accounts they’d been building up for years.  I thought, you know, actually, they sorta _should_—if only “marriage” hadn’t gotten all mixed up with romance!  Anyway, that’s why I still like the idea of Something Like What We Now Call Marriage.  Just open it up to more people, including straight couples, gay couples, and even platonic friends.  The hetero romantics (heteromantics?) could still do it their way, just make it what Lindsay Beyerstein in one of the earlier threads called a “niche option.”

Comment #113: FlipYrWhig  on  07/17  at  09:21 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.