Maybe if he didn’t judge women as sluttish after only knowing them for a few days, we would be less disgusted by him.

My heart positively bleeds for this poor, put-upon virgin who wants so desperately to have Teh Secks but doesn’t want to touch the dirty, dirty sluts.

Poor little sausage.

There is no such thing as “the Friend Zone” (apparently, a nebulously-bordered, mysterious region somewhat like Area 51?). No. She’s just not sexually attracted to you. That is all. FFS, if it’s ok for you, Whiny Guy, to be not-sexually-attracted to a woman who still has a pulse, it’s ok for women to not be sexually attracted to you!

Ross Douthat has a little brother?

DonnaDiva @4, that was my exact thought.

Answering “Did I deserve this” with “No. But did I deserve this letter? No, I did not.” for the win

There is definitely a Friend Zone. It’s called Friendship. What he describes isn’t that.

He’s in the Friends Under Clueless Kinds of Extended Depression Zone, and not in a good way.

the friend zone: we’re not actually friends, but you’re really creepy, so if I say let’s just be friends will you please leave me alone, mmmkay?

There is a fifth dimension beyond that which is known to Nice Guys. It is a dimension as vast as the space between their ears and as timeless as their attempts to get laid. It is the middle ground between celibacy and satyriasis, between PUA and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man’s fears and the summit of his dickishness. This is the dimension of cluelessness . It is an area which we call “The Friend Zone”.

My only answer to the kid is, “Dude, you’re 22.  You don’t even really know the shit you think you know about life. STFU, be grateful when a woman feels safe enough to express lust toward you, be human enough to know you don’t have to be Rod McStudly even when you’re caught off guard….”

Then again, feel free to stew in you own juices and be an asshole.  It. Is. Entirely. Up. To. You.

(Been there.  Needed to hear that.)

That whole thing is full of creepy wierdness, but this…

“(the last girl undressed herself for me after knowing me for five days. I didn’t sleep with her because I was turned off by this sluttish behavior)”

...is Super. Crazy. Any bets that he’d be in the strip club paying women to do this very thing that in private is “sluttish behavior”?

Dark Avenger FTW.

So, wait, he’s not into someone who wanted to pick him up, but he’s interested in someone who’s completely unavailable?

I think he has bigger problems than ‘the friend zone’.

@Dark Avenger: Totally did a spit-take, and I’m not entirely sure I didn’t wet myself while laughing!

As to the Nice Guy in question, what a wanker.  He’s just as bad as “Stanley,” frankly. >_<

Oh, it gets better. Dude showed up in the comments section of the blog and explained more about Ms. Sluttish. Apparently, what turned him off *at the time* was the lack of an available condom, so they still engaged in some non-penetrative sexyfuntimes.

Then he calls her back, asking for maybe a redux with some Trojans this time. She says that she didn’t really feel a spark with him, so no.

Then he writes Dan a letter wherein he calls her a slut.

Apart from the garden-variety douchebaggery, what I don’t get is how someone can be a ‘longtime reader’ of Dan Savage and still not get that it’s a bad idea to use slut as an insult around him.

The nice thing is that the Savage Love readers basically tore him to shreds over ‘sluttish’. Even nicer is that Dan Savage refrained from using the phrase ‘emotional tampon’ in his response.

I wonder if the sluttish girl who undressed for Douche-boy was also on the pill and bore a resemblance to Renee Zellweger.

How lucky he is that another male has come onto the scene to make him feel competitive.  Without this serendipitous event, he would still be wallowing in the twilight zone of not-quite-maleness.  But behold!  Another erection has arrived to point him on the righteous path.

Dark Avenger, that was brilliant.

“undressed herself for me” is one odd turn of phrase. I would bet that this guy has creeped out many of the women who’ve friend-zoned him, and god knows what else falls into his “incredibly weird and awkward” category.

But I do think the friend zone exists; maybe there’s a better term for it, but I use it to mean that point where there’s someone I was initially flirting with/interested in but we’ve now spent enough time together without anything happening that a sort of platonic dynamic has set in, and now the thought of sex seems weird. I know a lot of people use it in a resentful kind of way though, usually after they’ve tried to get close to someone by feigning friendship, only to discover they’re now regarded as a platonic friend. Which they regard as unfair.

It’s scary that I used to think kind of like that guy.  What a dunderhead!

A sex-negative upbringing really messes up one’s outlook on life.  Over the past couple of years I’ve gotten over a lot of it, but still the echoes of it tint my vision on occasion.  Now I’m done with that stupid “nice guy/bad boy” dichotomy nonsense (yes, I just made that term up.).

Considering all my girlfriends were friends before any romantic relationship started, I have no idea what people mean when they talk about the “friend zone.” Well, I do know what they mean, sadly. But it’s bullshit.

Heck, I even have friends who are women that I flirt with quite a bit, and there is definitely interest on both sides, but circumstances have just never allowed for a more romantic relationship. And that’s also fun.  I’m always up for some flirtation that both parties know is never going to go anywhere, so long as it’s all in good fun and we’re all on the same page.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh man.  This letter reminded me SO MUCH of my anime nerd friends.  Or rather friends of friends, because my group was never QUITE so horrifying.  But I have a friend who I think could totally have written this letter back when he was 22.  He’s had a girlfriend with whom he’s gone all the way since then, so I think he’s a little better now.

You know, not to defend the guy, but I wrote a woman off based on something like that once, though in her case it was plopping herself in my lap in front of my greatuncle, who was a resident at the nursing home where she worked. (I’m not defending him by saying that because frankly it was a stupid thing for me to think less of her because of. On the other hand, spending a big chunk of our first date on the phone… that kinda bothered me, yeah.) But seriously—she decides after only five days that she likes the guy enough to fuck him and he turns that down? He’s an idiot. And I would say this if it was me in that situation.

Then again, there’s this woman I know who gave me her phone number over a year ago and I’m still not sure if she’s interested… so disregard everything I say, because I really know nothing.

“But did I deserve this letter? No, I did not.”

Love it.

Apparently, what turned him off *at the time* was the lack of an available condom, so they still engaged in some non-penetrative sexyfuntimes.

Then he writes Dan a letter wherein he calls her a slut.

But that - I just - I don’t know what to believe anymore.

junk science:

Well, of course she didn’t feel a spark. He knocked the wind out of her sails.

Check out comments 43, 56, and 62.

“But seriously—she decides after only five days that she likes the guy enough to fuck him and he turns that down? He’s an idiot.”
Or he’s uncomfortable with a woman who’s willing to have sex with someone she’s only known for a few days…

Or he’s uncomfortable with a woman who’s willing to have sex with someone she’s only known for a few days…

Well, obviously. It’s not like she’s a man and would enjoy sex for its own sake or anything.

I’m ashamed to say it, but I also don’t get what Elmo has to do with anything. Have we been unfairly keeping him in the friend zone when we should have been making time with him?

Slut-shaming aside, anyone who writes a letter that long to an advice columnist, with nine numbered questions at the end (which actually turn out to be 17 or 18 questions in all— I lost count) is really just too fucking annoying to be having sex with anyone.

junk science @29 - Thanks a fucking lot.  I’m going to have to spend the day unseeing the mental image you created.

There’s a name for men who only want to have sex with women who don’t want to have sex with them.  And it ain’t “President of France.”

I am under 25, I’m not perfectly mature, obviously, I don’t have the life experience, but immaturity is a continuum and this… is embarrassing. It’s the sort of behavior I’d expect from fifteen year olds, and it is the way me and my peers behaved at that age; overwrought “love” triangles and everyone being drama llamas. I slogged my way through all of that letter and it reads exactly like a self-absorbed teenager’s diary; trying to compensate for a lack of introspection with over-analysis of minute details. It takes a large amount of arrested development not to realise that they’re all getting off on the drama and trying to do outdo each other in the woe-is-me stakes.

Then he calls her back, asking for maybe a redux with some Trojans this time. She says that she didn’t really feel a spark with him, so no.

Then he writes Dan a letter wherein he calls her a slut.

It’s just cluelessness within cluelessness with this mope. It’s no wonder that he’s blind to the common factor in that “incredibly poor history with women.” But then, it’s much easier to blame it all on stupid women he wants to bang who don’t recognise his wonderfulness or Slutty McSluttersons who haven’t taken the time to recognise his wonderfulness before they “undress themselves for him.”

Really, the character in the letter who ...

told me how happy she was about this, that at first she thought I was a douche but over time realized that I am a great guy (her words, not mine)

... should have gone with her first instinct.

It takes a large amount of arrested development not to realise that they’re all getting off on the drama and trying to do outdo each other in the woe-is-me stakes.

Not even good drama. Despite his choice of pseudonyms, Tennessee Williams this is not.

Sounds like Dan is running an old letter from Ross Douthat.

Not even good drama. Despite his choice of pseudonyms, Tennessee Williams this is not.

IKR? I was thinking it was more the ‘bad afternoon soap opera’ kind of drama. He should have left Streetcar out of it.

Ross Douthat has a little brother?

Best comment of the month!

I was a Nice Guy(TM) once, so I know what it means to be stuck in the “friend zone”.  And this guy is not stuck in the friend zone.  He had a girl strip for him but turned her down because she was being too “sluttish”?

I could understand too hard of a come-on freaking a person out (is so-and-so that into me ... or is so-in-so going to turn into a crazy insane stalker).  In fact, for me, part of the reason why I got stuck in the “friend zone” was that I was so afraid of coming on to hard and being “that freaky guy who is a too aggressive asshole” that I ended up being “the annoying passive-aggressive guy”.  As my wife says, it was lucky we met at a wine tasting, otherwise I might not have had the courage to be confident and assertive and ask her out.

But this guy’s language doesn’t indicate that he was freaked out by too strong of a come-on, but that he judges any woman who is too aggressive as slutty and then complains about him not getting any.  Sheeze.  It’s people like this who give us regular passive-aggressive Nice Guys(TM), who only have a sense of entitlement because everybody tells us “you’re a nice guy, eventually you’ll find someone”, a bad name!

This is the kind of guy I can picture getting angrier and angrier because unavailable ‘dream girl” continues to ignore him. Therefore he joins up with that douchebag group in Texas to harass swingers, gay people and Unitarians. Much easier to just get off on bullying people than to deal with your shit and have a healthy, adult sex life.

Yeah, I don’t think the “Friend Zone” is anything but a myth.  It’s rejection by another name, and the whole “I don’t want to jeopardize our friendship” is about as honest in most cases as “it’s not you, it’s me.”  It’s polite.  It lets the rejected party save some face.

I have a friend who I had lost touch with but who came back into my life and aggressively placed himself in my “friend zone.”  He had hinted to me several times that he is romantically interested in me and I have made it clear that I am not interested in him that way.  Now I get this feeling that he is hanging around being friendly hoping that I change my mind.

I wonder how many of these Nice Guy types who complain about the Friend Zone actually put themselves in that role this way.  Most, I bet.

“a single, unattached, non-drama-seeking/creating girl who makes a pass at you, even a pass that seems clumsy and/or unbecoming, is a better investment of your time and romantic energy than an attached girl with a talent for relationship theatrics”

This is AWESOME.  That is just clear and excellent advice.  I very much appreciate when someone expresses a thought clearly and directly.

The problem is, the 22 year old boy loves the drama too.  He doesn’t want to get laid and doesn’t want a girlfriend.  He wants the drama.

As for the Friends Zone, others have nailed it.  The Friends Zone just means she doesn’t want you.  Any relationship beyond that is, well, whatever it is; friendship, acquaintance, the dillhole who hangs around and you’re too nice to tell him to go bug someone else because you work together and he’s friendly with your friends and you don’t want drama at work.

Who keeps inviting this guy to parties? And a convention?

I think it’s relevant that this guy has two separate stories about the alleged girl who came on to him. In the first, he rejects her for showing too much interest in him. In the second, they fool around and then she rejects him when he calls her later. In the first version, she’s a slut for wanting him, and in the second, she’s a slut for not wanting him. If either story is remotely true, I’m betting on the second.

junk science:

Of course she’s a slut for not wanting him after she took off her clothes once. You see it, you own it.

Princess Rot, do you know how the ll combination is pronounced in Spanish?

Thanks for the encomia folks, I have a talent for parody, too much Mad magazine & Bob and Ray & growing up across the street from an orange grove….........

You see it, you own it.

I should have known. Incidentally, I like that the image we have of this poor girl is of her awkwardly and earnestly disrobing while our hero looks on in horror. There’s no way not to find that endearing.

And then she realized that, if he has been looking for love so desperately but still hasn’t gotten laidby age 22, being his first will probably be a lot more exciting mentally than physically.

Yeah, I don’t think the “Friend Zone” is anything but a myth.  It’s rejection by another name, and the whole “I don’t want to jeopardize our friendship” is about as honest in most cases as “it’s not you, it’s me.”  It’s polite.  It lets the rejected party save some face.

I disagree with this, I think that’s true in many cases but not all. I’m a straight guy and I have actually told this to girls and meant it because yes, romance DOES mess up established friendships.

But just in case it hasn’t been said lately, the guy who wrote that letter is a huge asshole.

You know, I finally lost my virginity to someone who awkwardly, but earnestly disrobed. I did not look on in horror, but found it quite endearing and hot. Funny that.

Princess Rot @33 - you nailed it.  Nearly 40 years ago, my early-teen self wrote and read letters like that, recounting in painful detail our adolescent scurrying to and fro at church camps and school club conventions.  The guy who wrote that letter may be 22, but socially and emotionally his voice is cracking and he doesn’t shave yet.

This term “friend zone” is also quintessentially Pick Up Artist territory because it implies that when a woman just wants to be friends, it’s because somehow the elements didn’t align exactly right, and you “accidentally” ended up in the dreaded friend zone.  It couldn’t possibly be because she has her own opinions of what makes someone attractive to her! 

But notice, I didn’t say the guy messed up the elements.  Only “somehow” the elements don’t align.  Because it’s never his fault.  He can only achieve or not, but NOT achieving is never actually his fault.  And it’s this lack of responsibility that is directly contributing to never getting anywhere with another human, obviously.

Notice this guy’s choice of words: “I have a bad history with women”.  He didn’t say,  “I mess up” or “I’m not sure what to do”  or ” I have a hard time”. etc etc.  It’s like these bad chain of events just happened to be thrust upon him for some unknown reason. 

My advice to this guy:  Recognize that when you get rejected, it is always for 1 of 2 reasons. 
1.) The woman simply wasn’t attracted to you and no “avoiding friend zone strategy” will change that.  2.) YOU did something to specifically turn her off.

The letter-writer reminds me of the fellow reported by a poster here a few weeks ago who was horrified when she had an orgasm and actually made some noise when she did.  The guy thought any woman who had orgasms like that and enjoyed sex were sluts or whores.  Astonishing.

Folks here who are denying the existence of “friend zones” describe a branch of it:  that category of people to whom you are not attracted at all but to whom you want to be polite by saying “Let’s just be friends.”  Completely acceptable behavior.

There is another category of people whom you like and whose company and conversation you enjoy but don’t feel a romantic or sexual spark, perhaps because you already have a romantic relationship and want to keep those feelings toward that partner.  I have a twenty-something daughter who has been living with a guy for about two years now, someone who was “just friends” since they were in 8th grade.  When she broke up with a long-term boyfriend (well, 6 years) and was ready for a new romantic relationship she reevaluated the “just friends” guy.

I’ve managed to score in the friend zone.
Afterwards I usually get a penalty call for spiking the pillow and dancing.

I am horrified by the rampant sluttery on display here.

@Comment #57: junk science

Would it help if I took my own clothes off?

I know I said I just wanted to be friends, cynickal, but it was just because I couldn’t admit my real feelings for you.

#55; I just married someone that I was good friends with for six years.  I had a similar experience to your daughter’s roommate; my spouse broke up with the someone they’d been with for a long time and a few months later we fell madly in love and lust with each other (about in that order, though some particle physicists disagree).

I use it to mean that point where there’s someone I was initially flirting with/interested in but we’ve now spent enough time together without anything happening that a sort of platonic dynamic has set in, and now the thought of sex seems weird.

It just proves that timing is very important.  But, honestly, anyone I’ve ever “friend zoned” is someone whom I liked enough to be friends with, I was probably willing to date as a get-to-know-you thing, and I ultimately concluded was not sex or dating material.  I’ve dodged some bullets lately, where I thought a guy seemed nice and would’ve been willing to give him a chance, but either he or I choked in asking one another out, and I found out through being “friends” that the guy was a raging asshole.  One of them I now hate, I mean absolutely HATE, and I bet he thinks we’re still friends.

What I sincerely don’t understand here, and maybe it’s because I’m old, is the intimate, extensive knowledge this guy has of tiny details of this girl’s life, enough to make this kind of almost minute-by-minute narrative.  Is being preoccupied with this girl his job or something?

PS The other thing—and I guess that’s a big part of the problem—is looking at this so-called “triangle,” I see very clearly that it is not, in fact, a triangle.  There is a troubled relationship, and this guy hovering around the fringes, hoping the relationship ends.

#54:

This term “friend zone” is also quintessentially Pick Up Artist territory because it implies that when a woman just wants to be friends, it’s because somehow the elements didn’t align exactly right, and you “accidentally” ended up in the dreaded friend zone.  It couldn’t possibly be because she has her own opinions of what makes someone attractive to her!

They call it “getting lucky” for a reason.

I do think you’re a little off-base here.  Plenty of guys blame themselves if they fall into the friend zone.  “I should have been more/less aggressive.” / “I should have dressed nicer.” / “I should have asked for her number sooner / later.” / “I shouldn’t have hit on her friend.”  All those things have gone through my head when finding myself mired in the terrible zone of friendliness.  And I’ve had discussions to the same effect with numerous other male buddies.

Yes, some girls will decide you don’t make the cut and zone you because you just aren’t attractive enough.  But others will zone you for mental health reasons.  They don’t want to spoil a friendship to gamble on a relationship.  And since so many relationships end badly, it’s not an invalid fear.

The concept of Friend Zone has more baggage than MiddleageLiberal lets on. The connotation is that this is a permanent state of affair, usually entered into because one was being Too Nice to the object (term used deliberately in order to describe the mindset in question) of desire.

*Of course* people in a monogamous relationship will often have really good friends who they don’t see as dating or sex material for now (maybe there’s even some tension, because the idea that people are always naturally monogamous is obvious bunk). But it often happens that one will reevaluate those relationships when a breakup occurs. And of course if someone isn’t assertive and lets someone else believe their feelings are purely platonic, well they can’t expect the other human being to be psychic. But ending up in these areas is not what the PUA world and people who buy into the ‘human females as objects rather than subjects in a relationship’ concept call ‘the Friend Zone’. And the fact that there is confusion is a deliberate attempts by these people to shove their worldview into respectability by attaching their false concepts to actual realities.

@Zifnab: “the terrible zone of friendliness”? If being a friend is a terrible state of affair, I don’t think anyone is forcing you to stay friend with that person except yourself.

Also, if someone is not willing to risk a gamble on you for a relationship or sex, how is that functionally different than not being attractive (in the general, rather than purely physical sense of the word) enough?

I know I said I just wanted to be friends, cynickal, but it was just because I couldn’t admit my real feelings for you.

Here’s an emesis basin - let it all out, js.

Seems like the ‘friend zone’ is whatever you make of it.  I have one person there—we’ve known each other since we were 12, and while I did express a little romantic interest in him in high school, he was solidly crushing on another girl who Was Not Interested.  By the time he came to thinking that way about me, I had already met my husband.  By that time, even if I wasn’t in a relationship, we’d been friends for so long it would have been awkward to start dating then.  Any romantic interests I had towards him were long dead.

Also, if someone is not willing to risk a gamble on you for a relationship or sex, how is that functionally different than not being attractive (in the general, rather than purely physical sense of the word) enough?

I think the idea is less “you’re not [generally] attractive enough to gamble on” and more, “I love you too much as things are to risk throwing that away.”

Plenty of relationships end, and end badly, even when there is overwhelming attraction and affection at the outset. It’s not insulting, or anyway it doesn’t seem that way to me, to think in practical terms about how much more it would hurt to lose a dating partner AND a best friend, than to lose a dating partner only.

I know I said I just wanted to be friends, cynickal, but it was just because I couldn’t admit my real feelings for you.

It’s not gay if it’s a three way
With a honey in the middle, there’s some leeway…

@Well, what?: I don’t consider not being of interest as a romantic partner to be insulting.

In my opinion, when you refrain from dating or having sex ‘for the sake of the friendship’ it’s actually a pretty good subconscious/gut estimation of the fact that dating or having sex would end badly.

The PUA attempt to circumvent the ‘friend zone’ is pretty much an attempt at information warfare. If a potential partner would be turned off from friendship prospects by knowing you better, well what they’re proposing is that you don’t let them get to know you better.

The fact they think this works is confirmation bias. Of course they don’t ever end up being in love with a friend that has no interest… they simply forego the possibility of opposite-sex friendships altogether. If they were to honestly examine the results, however, I doubt they’d find more successful ‘hook-ups’ or relationships than if they actually were open to friendship with women. Except perhaps they might get some ‘hook-ups’ under false pretenses that they would not have otherwise gotten, but that’s deception and not exactly ‘enthusiastic consent’.

I meant to write “If a potential partner would be turned off from a *relationship* prospect by knowing you better/being your friend first”.

Well @69:

For some people who are addicted to some kind of “romance” there’s also the calculation that a longtime friend has seen them in various less-than-flattering poses. Not a big deal for serious relationships, but possibly for hookups or flings.

I went to college for engineering, so most of my friends were guys because that’s who I had classes with.  None of my actual male friends would have ever used the term “friend zone”, and I even had sex with a few of them over the years.  There were a few cases, one in particular, of just friends, and the emphasis is on just because I was just barely friends with him.  We had absolutely nothing in common, and it was very obvious that he only wanted sex and had no interest in my actual individual self.  I really wouldn’t consider him much of a friend because there was nothing we could do together and both enjoy, and I would never count on him to be there when I needed help like actual, genuine friends were.  But there’s really no socially acceptable way to tell someone to just stop hanging out with you in a public place (even though he was essentially just hanging out by himself but doing it right next to me).  I’m sure that in his mind, he was in the “friend zone”.  My point is that actual friends don’t even think of it as the friend zone or “just friends”, and the ones who view that way probably aren’t actual friends.  It’s highly likely in fact that at least some of the women the letter-writer is complaining about were intentionally trying to be unlikable so he would just go away already and leave them alone.

Even now I have friends of both genders, and I don’t consider any of them, male or female, to be in the friend zone.  I doubt that Nice Guys would ever use “friend zone” to describe their actual friends, because they think feigning friendship with a woman is just some trick to get sex from a woman.

I’m willing to accept that there may be women out there who “use” insecure men for non-sexual emotional support and even more concrete favors like helping them move, helping with car maintenance, etc.  I’ve certainly known some women who had little compunction about getting random men to pay their cover or buy them drinks, with the ultimate goal of just walking away and ignoring those guys afterwards.  My own sister did that on numerous occasions before she settled down and got married.

But, it’s hard to use someone who’s not willing to be used.  The bitterness surrounding the “Friend Zone” trope proves that there are men out there who are willing to pretend to be friends with women in order to get laid.  The (possible) existence of women willing to take advantage of men like that just proves that those men need an infusion of self-worth, common sense, and basic human decency.

In my opinion, when you refrain from dating or having sex ‘for the sake of the friendship’ it’s actually a pretty good subconscious/gut estimation of the fact that dating or having sex would end badly.

Are other people perhaps just more optimistic about their relationships than I am? I sort of assume romantic relationships, even the very most awesome, aren’t permanent, because they don’t tend to be. I have somewhat higher hopes for the very best of my friendships.

But my point was slightly different—saying, “I have doubts that we will spend the next 40 years together” is not the same as saying, “you’re not attractive enough for me.” They’re only functionally the same because in both instances, no fucking occurs. But they’re not functionally identical, or don’t have to be. It would be much easier, I’d wager, to maintain the existing friendship after the first explanation, than after the second.

er, functionally similar, rather than functionally the same.

So let me get this straight - you’re wasting your emotions and energy on a woman who’s treating you badly.  She, in turn, is wasting her emotions and energy on another guy who is treating her badly, and the similarity of your circumstances has somehow failed to grant you either A) any insight into what would motivate her to be with someone who treats her badly or B) the idea that maybe you should stop wasting your time on people who don’t really care about you.  In addition, you would never pollute yourself by having sex with the kind of woman who would want to have sex with a guy like you.

Does that pretty much sum it up?

Well, I know what I am about to say won’t be left up for long, cause you’re all, esp the sorry excuse for a woman/person that runs this site will erase it, and you’re all a bunch of cunts,pussys,fags and hypocrites who like huddle around and jerk each other off and can’t handle the truth, I figure as long as I get to say what I want to say and can ruffle the feathers the likes of you people, it’s worth it.

Now, this article is the ongoing never ending story. It keeps going and going on and on, and it will whether you like it or not. Now, here’s what I have to say…..

Now, if anything, you should all be encouraging chicks to fuck,suck and bang this guy for many reasons. Some basic ones I will get too in a minute. Now, for starters, alot of this is the/a chicks fault, and she brings this on herself alot of the time. Case in point, you don’t have a problem fucking and sucking the jocks, but you won’t give napoleon dynamite the time of day.

I’m trying to gather my thoughts as I write this,I have alot to say. Now on one had, upon reading this guys letter, I do want to take him aside and grab him and say Wake the fuck up dude!!! This bitch is not worth it!!! To whom I really got no sympathy for her either. Hey, if she wants to stay and be with a guy like “Stanley”, not my fuckin problem. This is the guy she chose to be with for whatever reason, so she’s gonna have to deal with it. I really got no sympathy. Period. Now if I had to deal with a “Stanley”, I wouldn’t hesitate to beat the shit out of him by any means necessary. No fuckin way am I gonna let some douche cockily humiliate me in front of everyone so he can look cool. Fuck no. I’ll do what I can by any means necessary to stop him. Yeah, then we’ll see who’s a funny smart ass now. I have zero tolerance for that sort of thing.

Despite all of this and the young man’s naievety, I’m on his side over any one else’s. One being that men’s sexual frustration is nothing to be laughed at, and should be taken more seriously than it is. The uber liberal,feminazi media, who seemingly condone what they speak out against, i.e girls getting with real assholes, seem to take it as a joke, and then they wonder why people have a problem with them. I mean, think if someone offered to fuck that Sodini guy, maybe he wouldn’t have gone nuts like he did. But no one wants to admit to that due to years of propaganda and brainwashing.

And these chicks who put such guys in the freind zone know exactly what they’re doing. So I really got no sympathy for them. I mean, you either give what I want,or you don’t. I mean, you had no problem fucking the last x amount of guys you did, why should I have to wait. I’m not your freind,brother,father figure,shoulder to cry on. You either give me what I want and respect my needs, or I have no use for you. Good. Go be with that guy who abuses you and treats you like shit. Maybe then and only then will it knock some sense into you. And don’t deny it, you bitches like it when guys do that or act like “Stanley”, that’s why you get with guys like that. But hey, it’s not my fuckin problem.

If anything, the advice for this kid should be just say fuck it and move on and not deal with these awful piece of shit people. Cause that’s what they are. Savage gives some good advice I must say, even though he’s a butt fucking homo. Make of that what you will.  I was going to say some more, but I think I’ve said enough. All in all, you chicks, and even some guys, do this shit to yourselves,and I really got no sympathy for you. And these responses, apart from mine, which is great, are just terrible attempts at snarkiness and comebacks. Oh, and if there was ever someone who needed a cock shoved in her every hole, it’s the feminazi she devil cunt that runs this hellhole. Amanda Marcotte that is.

Oh and maybe girls wouldn’t be judged as sluttish if they didn’t act sluttish. It’s going to happen no matter what. You know it is, so why fight it?

Oh and a 22 year old guy who’s still a virgin, not that I’m judging, but societal issues/influences/problems aside, if anything, you should all be encouraging them all to line up and be on his dick. Oh but that’s right, you’re already dealing with some other asshole.

Oh and here’s something else I really wanted to say:

If it had been a girl who wrote this, one who is “nerdy/socially awkward”, you’d all be on her side and blaiming the “evil,sexist patriarchial menz and whathazyouz!!!!” Yes you would. You complain and bitch about the media,and how various types of women are portrayed,and women’s image and this and that, but when it comes to a guy of all people with these sort of problems, oh no! Now he’s a creepy,delusional,nice guy,etc. So fuck all of you and then some for it.

All in all, you chicks, and even some guys, do this shit to yourselves,and I really got no sympathy for you.

Same to you.  Everything bad that has ever happened in your life is entirely your fault because you’re a worthless piece of shit.

Have a nice day.

and you’re all a bunch of cunts,pussys,fags and hypocrites who like huddle around and jerk each other off and can’t handle the truth, I figure as long as I get to say what I want to say and can ruffle the feathers the likes of you people, it’s worth it.

Conservative thinking in a nutshell, folks.  Insult and act as though we own him an apology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk9aThIovMA

Hah. As in for the last two comments, I’m not a conservative or a liberal, I’m a realist, and I knew one of you was going to say something like that. And what did I ever want an apology for?  I also never said that anything that’s happened to me or anyone else is there own fault, but in my own case and anyone else’s, we all know there could have been things done differently or had we been smarter,maybe some things wouldn’t have happened or we would have known better etc. Aren’t you all about education and learning more? Hmm??

Oh and another thing, for all this talk over “nerd revenge fantasies”, which I’m sure some if not all of you have harobored at some point, and you’re lying if you don’t admit to it, really should be one to talk, on this hellhole of a website of all places, in that with all this feminazi bullshit talk of the “unfair,oppresive patriarchy” and it’s “oppression of women and other minorites” which is one of the biggest crocks of shit if I’ve ever heard one, all in all sounds like one big angry nerd revenge fantasy,which it is. You guys, like the sucker symp nice guy, feel you were wronged, in his case the hot chick/popular jock, in your’s the aforementioned imaginary unfair “patricarchal/white man” system etc, so there fore you both,sometimes delusionally,try and do what you can to change or save this that and the other thing. So I’m surprised you guys aren’t more sympathetic to him. Oh but I bet you would if this was some tranny freak or gay weirdo who was making this complaint. Straight normal guy who might be a tad naieve and needs someone to show him the right way,oh no. Fuck that guy you say. Guy doesn’t deserve it. He feels “entitled”, as if everyone other fucking person doesn’t in one way or another. And you wonder why this country has the problems it does at times, or why people don’t like your types or take kindly to you.

oh, my.  Yet another unaware obje t lesson

And I bet this troll wonders why women don’t just fawn over him.  I mean, how could any woman resist such a charming personality?  And he’s such a Nice Guy too!  Because this is exactly what nice guys do the second they have anonymity to hide behind.  Why don’t bitchez love him?  He’s so Nice!

Now on one had, upon reading this guys letter, I do want to take him aside and grab him and say Wake the fuck up dude!!! This bitch is not worth it!!! To whom I really got no sympathy for her either. Hey, if she wants to stay and be with a guy like “Stanley”, not my fuckin problem. This is the guy she chose to be with for whatever reason, so she’s gonna have to deal with it. I really got no sympathy.

Wow, my comment was right above yours, and you seem to have missed it completely.  So, to sum up:

1) Dude wastes his time on a woman who doesn’t care about him = Sympathize with him and try to get him out of the situation.

2) Woman wastes her time on a man who doesn’t care about her = She’s a bitch who deserves no sympathy.

Is that it?  Is that how it works?  Because for the life of me I can’t figure out how, given the similarity of their circumstances, he can’t find it within himself either to empathize with her situation or stop making the same mistakes she is.

I find Mr. Troll a bit baffling.

He seems to think that problems like rejection and not getting any only apply to men.

News flash:  Women get rejected and don’t always get the sort or frequency of sex that they want.  Women fall for friends who don’t fall in love with them back.  And nobody of any gender is entitled to have a person or any person fall in love with them/have sex with them.  Full.  Stop.

you either give what I want,or you don’t. I mean, you had no problem fucking the last x amount of guys you did, why should I have to wait. I’m not your freind,brother,father figure,shoulder to cry on. You either give me what I want and respect my needs, or I have no use for you.

I think this word “respect” does not mean what you think it means. But hey, good to have a précis of rape culture so succinctly laid out.

Or really, really bad sex.

If I were single, virgin or not, and an enthusiastically consenting woman stripped down, I can’t see why I wouldn’t take her up on it.

Come to think of it, that is how I lost my virginity.

La Lubu, 3:

There is no such thing as “the Friend Zone” (apparently, a nebulously-bordered, mysterious region somewhat like Area 51?).

Or a relationship advice show on FNC?

Wow, it’s as if Vox Day and Adam Carolla had a love child.

Troll has all the hatred of women except as fuck machines as Rush Limpbraugh without the charm.

“And I bet this troll wonders why women don’t just fawn over him.  I mean, how could any woman resist such a charming personality?  And he’s such a Nice Guy too!  Because this is exactly what nice guys do the second they have anonymity to hide behind.  Why don’t bitchez love him?  He’s so Nice!”

First off no. I am smart enough to not say this in public. You might think you got me but you don’t. No, I’m in fact not a nice guy, and I’m not going to pretend like I don’t notice certain things either. Not going to lie to myself. Bitches are bitches. Telling it like it is.

‘Wow, my comment was right above yours, and you seem to have missed it completely.  So, to sum up:

1) Dude wastes his time on a woman who doesn’t care about him = Sympathize with him and try to get him out of the situation.

2) Woman wastes her time on a man who doesn’t care about her = She’s a bitch who deserves no sympathy.

Is that it?  Is that how it works?  Because for the life of me I can’t figure out how, given the similarity of their circumstances, he can’t find it within himself either to empathize with her situation or stop making the same mistakes she is.”

Yes, that is how it is. Guy needs to learn to not be such a sucker to avoid bitches exactly like “stella”, “stella” knows exactly what she’s doing, so fuck her. I mean, he should know better, but she could stop herself. If anything, why doesn’t she cut him off or at least offer to blow him? Hey, he, me,you, all have a dick, and you either service it or you don’t.

When I see trolls like this all I can think is I am so happy I know my father, stepfather, and best friend. Because if not? I would hate all men and brush them with a broad stroke, that is how hateful he is.

Oh, please spare us, trolly-boy. If we wanted to read something like the garbage you’re spouting, we could follow the links at Manboobz.

I was having fun here before. Oh well.

Actually, I’m not hateful at all. And even so, you judge as if you’ve never been hateful towards anything or anyone, or perhaps you are too afraid to admit it? I’m just not going to lie to myself over this sort of thing. I mean, you all seem so willing to gang up on this guy, who I admit, yes, he’s making alot of mistakes and like I said before, he should just walk away,and take the position of “Not my fucking problem”, as I have. I mean, you all seem to overlook, and I really don’t care cause it’s not my fucking problem either, I’m just pointing out the obvious, that “Stanley” is a little more than slightly abusive prick, the “frat douche” guy he sounds like who we know we all hate, and “Stella” as the manipulative little bitch she is, and you all seem to be giving them a slide so to say.

Well, BrianX, is that is your real name, maybe alot of the stuff at Manboobz, I’ve read it, they have they’re points, but it’s a whole lot of bullshit as well,has a point to it that you all seem to want to ignore, and yet, you have nothing to say about what’s obviously going. Hey I pretty much think all the people in the article mentioned are stupid or bad in one way or another, but if we’re going to take sides in this, I’ll take the clueless naieve guys side, cause he’s probably the only one worth standing up for and needs to be taught something. The rest can all go fuck themselves. Maybe an occasional foray into that type of attitude would do you all some good. It has for me.

Yes, that is how it is. Guy needs to learn to not be such a sucker to avoid bitches exactly like “stella”, “stella” knows exactly what she’s doing, so fuck her. I mean, he should know better, but she could stop herself. If anything, why doesn’t she cut him off or at least offer to blow him?

You seem, once again, to be missing the point entirely, as the section I bolded shows.  Yes, she should stop stringing him along and manipulating him.  However, her getting his rocks off isn’t going to solve anything.  The problem here is not that he paid his friend-listening-time at the first drive-through window and failed to receive his blowjob at the second, the problem here is that he’s being emotionally manipulated.  If it were just a matter of getting more orgasms, then he could easily solve the problem with his right hand (or his left hand, or the “slutty” girls who actually want to sleep with him). It’s quite possible (and not at all uncommon) to manipulate someone and string them along while still having sex with them.

Hey, he, me,you, all have a dick, and you either service it or you don’t.

Well, “Stella” seems to be quite firmly in the “don’t service” camp, but you don’t seem to be as accepting of this as your comment implies.  It sounds to me that it’s more like “you either service it or I fly into a rage.”

How many people think the girl who stripped for him had a terrible, terrible time making out with this guy?  I don’t imagine he’s very good in bed at all.  So when he called looking for a second time, she rightfully refused.  And he goes out of his way to bring up this story.  There is something seriously wrong with this dude.

This is what confuses me. If women are more “sluttish”, this means that they may be more likely to pity lay these guys on a whim and the *eye roll* distribution of vagina becomes more equitable. If they (meaning attractive thin white/Asian women between 17 and 23, obviously) all got into relationships with Nice Guys, there definitely wouldn’t be anywhere near enough of them on the market to go around to meet the demand, and it would still be all about “your boyfriend, that asshole who can barely tear himself away from WOW to gaze into your eyes for 5 seconds like I can.”

Sluts are the answer, my friend.

“I mean, think if someone offered to fuck that Sodini guy, maybe he wouldn’t have gone nuts like he did.”

He probably would’ve done what Sodini types do on the news every damned day - killed the woman who was regularly fucking him first. And you would’ve said, “She should’ve known better than to date an asshole like that.”

Ahahahaha “men’s sexual frustration is nothing to be laughed at” lolololol

I know being 12 is tough, but hang in there li’l guy!

I’m just pointing out the obvious, that “Stanley” is a little more than slightly abusive prick

You’re calling out the alleged abusiveness of this guy Stanley after suggesting in your first post that Amanda needs a good raping. I call Stick Rule.

I meant to add, stick rule on top of the sheer despicable nature of such comments.

OK, so we should:
1. Not be so sluttish!
2. Fuck potential murderers on demand!

I am laughing very hard at your well-deserved sexual frustration.

Surely a blog of Pandagon’s caliber can attract higher quality trolls than this.

Yeah, poor little troll wondering why women hate him.  Gee, it can’t possibly be because he’s a giant raving asshole, can it?  Why aren’t all those bitchez fighting each other to determine who get to service him next?  I mean, how could anyone not love such a horrible excuse for a human being?  Girls like raging lunatics, right?  It’s actually kind of sad, really.  Troll will go on being horrible and filled with rage, treating women horribly, and then sitting alone at night being mad at them for not catering to his every whim.  And he’s too stupid to ever figure out that the problem is with him.  He’s really too stupid to ever realize that his own behavior is appalling.

Yeah, this is embarrassing.

bananacat:

I actually enjoy dealing with Dunning-Krueger cases like this guy. They’re especially fun when they claim that you haven’t answered their points or you’re arguing a straw man or whatever—as a general rule I don’t even try to debate them. I just taunt them; once in a while it produces a really spectacular and hilarious meltdown.

#109 If assholes get all of the chicks, why don’t these guys have any? Because they’re the passive-aggressive, silently seething kind instead of the gregariously malevolent kind? You don’t get pussy points for being the former, you just stay out of jail way more often. That being said, that means that you *may* see more action than the guy who’s busy doing two years for headbutting a police officer.

Actually, if “Stella” was to blow him once instead of manipulating him, which makes her the worse one in this situation, at least he gets something out of it. And no, I don’t feel service it or I fly into a rage. It’s just I’m not going to waste my time with people who play games or won’t give me what I want.

As for the WOW Comment, if you are with a guy who won’t steer his eyes away from that for 5 seconds to look at you, again, not my fucking problem.

When did I ever say Amanda needs a good raping? I merely implied she should shut the fuck up about well, almost everything for alot of reasons. Not everyone agrees with her you know.

As for the “raving asshole” comment, well, apart from girls seeming to like that sort of guy in many different ways, not that I am, it’s not like I go around saying this sort of thing in public. You think you might have me figured out, but you’re wrong. As usual.Horrible excuse for a human being? Far from it. I’m just being honest and real. Girls do like raging lunatices. Look at all the ones who end up with angry abusive jock types, or ghetto drug dealing deadbeats. That’s not me, but it does happen. Alot. Look at all the examples of white trash on shows like 16 and pregnant. Ok then. I don’t treat women horribly actually, I just have zero tolerance for bullshit. But it’s ok to treat men horribly but not women? Hmm, and you wonder why I say the things I do. The problem is not me or anyone else at times, sometimes it’s them. Taunt me all you want. Say whatever you want. I don’t care. It’s not going to cause whatever “meltdown” you think you can sadistically produce. I know I’m right, and you’re all wrong.

Wow.

Iamrightandyouareallwrong = dudeevenIwouldstayawayfromandI’madude

The problem here is not that he paid his friend-listening-time at the first drive-through window and failed to receive his blowjob at the second, the problem here is that he’s being emotionally manipulated.

There is another thing, DaveL. Like so many Nice Guys, he’s also a hypocrite. He inserted himself into Stella’s relationship drama - could be because emotional vampires are attracted to other emotional vampires - or because he views Stella as an unavailable ‘good girl’ he can whiteknight for without owning his unhealthy attitudes about women. It may even mollify him a little and convince him that because he’s being fake-nice to Stella, his dues are paid, and any drama is always someone else’s fault.

If we take his word for it and Stella is emotionally manipulating him, well, he’s doing the same thing to her. He’s voluntarily hanging around the periphery, hoping that Stella will be enough of an emotional mess so she gives in and he gets what he wants from her. Not only that, he expects us to feel sorry for him because it isn’t working.

He’s palming off his insecurities onto Stella, and whatever her personality flaws, they don’t justify his behavior. He’s also got the easiest way out; he can walk away with no reprecussions and little hurt feelings, if he chooses not to wallow, because it never was and never will be his relationship. Walking away quietly may also do Stella an unintentional favor because she won’t have two douchebags pulling on her arms, which might make her wake up and grow up once she’s no longer the center of attention.

I must admit I am endlessly fascinated and repulsed by the amount of men who quite obviously hate women, but think access to pussy will solve all their problems with women, and that human interaction is a degrading sport of one-upmanship, false platitudes, mind games and material trading. It also weirdly fascinating to observe just how many flavors this type of misogyny comes in: Ross Douthat makes creepy gross intellectualizations, letter writer is a hypocritical drama lover and troll here is irrationally angry. How Nice.

Ooooh, you’re so brave and edgy! It’s like you’re saying what everyone else is thinking!

*rolleyes*

You don’t get pussy points for being the former, you just stay out of jail way more often. That being said, that means that you *may* see more action than the guy

On the other hand, I can understand women with low self esteem going for the obvious and known evil rather than the “nice” guy who’ll potentially turn on them. If a person is that down on herself, that level of disappointment is sometimes too much to bear.

In the end, though, they’re getting the same thing: a guy with a deep dislike of any woman who shows more agency than does a RealDoll (or, alternately, his doting mommy).

Men with similar low self esteem (like the letter writer) tend to fall into the same trap of choosing bad partners or crushes, but thanks to patriarchy’s inculcated sense of male entitlement, they bring something extra to the pity party:

I mean, how could any woman resist such a charming personality?  And he’s such a Nice Guy too!  Because this is exactly what nice guys do the second they have anonymity to hide behind.  Why don’t bitchez love him?  He’s so Nice!

NiceGuys® (and PUAs and MRAs and the like) never realise the degree to which they reek of bitterness and misogyny and (consequently) desperation. No amount of Axe body spray can cover it up, no number of pseudo-intellectual rationalistions or “funny”/“drunken” rants can disguise it, and so they remain stuck in this drawn-out death spiral. If the “tells” are obvious to me, they must set off klaxons for women.

[Also, while I’m not gonna waste time addressing the troll directly, I hope Amanda leaves his posts up as examples of the self-destructive attitudes lots of men buy into]

I must admit I am endlessly fascinated and repulsed by the amount of men who quite obviously hate women, but think access to pussy will solve all their problems with women, and that human interaction is a degrading sport of one-upmanship, false platitudes, mind games and material trading.

This is why you’ll often hear PUAs and MRAs and NiceGuys® espousing Libertarian ideology. It’s all just a business deal, where one party is as a matter of course gonna get screwed over (and not in the good way).

Also, to be more accurate, you have to qualify “access to pussy” with a parenthetical “on the man’s terms.” For example, the letter-writer was offered sex, but not on his starry-eyed and narcissistic terms (where the girl would have recognised his snowflake specialness and thereby lost her “sluttiness”). Any guy who talks about non-BDSM sex as “being serviced” falls into this category as well.

<blockquote>When did I ever say Amanda needs a good raping? I merely implied she should shut the fuck up about well, almost everything for alot of reasons. Not everyone agrees with her you know.</blockquote

I rest my case. Stick Rule.

Hmm, apparently I need to be HIT with a stick due to pathetic HTML fail.

I don’t understand what the evidence is for “Stella” being a manipulative bitch.

I have been friends with women other men think are “Stellas.”  In fact, one of them had an ill-conceived makeout session with a guy friend after an upsetting breakup.  But guess what?  Regardless of how the makeout guy would describe her then-boyfriend, her then-boyfriend was a great guy.  And her makeout guy took advantage of her being upset about the breakup.  But she took responsibility for her actions, and after she realized that (1) she really didn’t want to be involved with makeout boy and (2) she and her then-boyfriend could work things out, she went back to her then-boyfriend, and they were pretty happy for a long time.  Make-out boy told lies about her and called her a whore to anyone who would listen.

Then there are women who get involved with Stanleys who are really like the Stanley described in this story.  But that doesn’t mean that they are bad, either.  It means they are being treated like shit.  Being faithful to your awful boyfriend doesn’t make someone manipulative.  It makes them confused, upset, and still pretty good people because (1) they don’t really know what a healthy relationship is and (2) even though they are in a relationship where their needs are not being met, instead of cheating, they try to deal with things in an above-board manner.

Of the friends I have had who date men who don’t treat them well, I have to say, they don’t *enjoy* the mistreatment.  They just don’t know any better.  They fall in love with someone, and that someone starts pushing them around, gradually at first, and they take it because they are in love and don’t know any better.  Only very, very fucked up individuals are in love with the mistreatment itself, and if they are, they shouldn’t be called bitches, either.

I have also known men who date women who are awful to them, and again, they usually just don’t know any better.  For example, they will describe something horrible the woman did or said, and just sort of chalk it up to women being different/more emotional.  And my response is always, no, that sort of thing is not okay.  Someone doesn’t get to be cruel, and continue to act as if you deserved that cruelty.

So, again, there are female Stanleys and male Stellas and any way you slice it, someone being faithful to an awful partner isn’t manipulative, they just need some real friendship and support so that they can learn to walk away from awful partners.

And if the letter writer, or any other man or woman doesn’t want to fulfill that role in “Stella’s” life, nobody says he or she has to.  But he or she is not really Stella’s friend, in that case.

Looks like someone in our comments has some serious and sadly common issues and is trying to not work them out by raving here.

I find the part about “men’s sexual frustration” especially funny.  He sounds like a five year old who can’t have the candy bar in the supermarket even though it’s RIGHT THERE.  He can put his hand out and touch it, but he can’t have it.  Poor kid.  Mommy won’t let him have the candy bar.  He hates mommy.

As an aside, grow up, kid.  There’s plenty of candy and, when you’re old enough, you’ll get all the candy you want just by being a human being and recognizing that the candy bars are human beings too, and not really a candy bars at all.  When you’re nice enough, candy bars will actually ask you to eat them even when you’re not interested in candy.

Can you folks tell that I haven’t had lunch and I really like chocolate?

Hey, Trolltot!

Women are laughing at you. If we’re all such sluts and bitches and won’t put out for you, perhaps you might try men?

Oh, right. They won’t put out for you either.

I suspect even your hand has put you in the friend zone.

Number 79 was a blast.  Best laughs of the week.

I broke up with my Snickers bar last week. It just wasn’t working out. I don’t think we can even be friends anymore.

cynikal’s comment @ 56 had me laughing hard enough to wake the house up:

“I’ve managed to score in the friend zone.
Afterwards I usually get a penalty call for spiking the pillow and dancing.”

The mental image had me dying.

More seriously, almost half of my partners have been friends; and we’re still friends.  I even dated one briefly (didn’t work, we’re much better as FWB).

It just kept unwrapping itself and asking me to eat it, and, well, I got a bit turned off. Who knows who else it’s offering itself to? I eat candy on my terms, thank you very much.

@ DaveL It’s quite possible (and not at all uncommon) to manipulate someone and string them along while still having sex with them.

Yes, yes it is.

Look, I’ll say this and maybe be gone: Contrary to what you might think or believe, I am not what you think I am. I am just pointing out certain truths no one else is willing too.

Contrary to what you might think or believe, I am not what you think I am

Based on what you initially wrote here, you seem to be a quivering mass of neuroses and anxiety, and those are just your good points. 

“Based on what you initially wrote here, you seem to be a quivering mass of neuroses and anxiety, and those are just your good points” No, I’m actually not, but even if I was, shouldn’t you be fair and considerate and nice and give me a chance and be willing to overlook any “shortcomings” and all of that cause I am such a nice person etc?

Well, I was never very good with cars. Kicking the tires is about all I’m good for in that department.

Iamrightandyouareallwrong @ 136: Why the hell should we do that?  When rude strangers wander into your house, fling about random insults at everyone in the “room”, interupt a mild depate with a tirade about the hostess (including saying she should be raped - quoted here so you can’t deny it this time

Oh, and if there was ever someone who needed a cock shoved in her every hole, it’s the feminazi she devil cunt that runs this hellhole. Amanda Marcotte that is.

- why should we even acknowledge your sorry, misguided at best existance.

Total wanker as well as asshole.

I think @136 might be someone else satirizing the quintessential NiceGuy(tm)  aspect of what he’s saying.

136 is the same guy, I checked in the members list.

He clearly blows hot and cold as a troll.

Is there a way you can mock Nice Guy (TM) types without mocking people who haven’t had sex by a certain age?  I’m a 21-year-old woman who has never had sex (and I’m not a hoity-toity religious type, it just hasn’t happened yet for me), and I really don’t appreciate when someone admitting that they haven’t had sex by a certain age is trotted out as evidence that they’re a desperate lonely loser.  (At least, that’s how I took the first quote).  How can one rail against slut-shaming and then turn around and engage in virgin-shaming?

Erda, he’s a desperate lonely loser, not because he’s a virgin, but because he’s a jackass in the way he thinks of women.

That’s my take on it.

Erda, if you haven’t had sex because no one you’ve been interested in has psychically sensed this and made the first move, you are a Nice Guy™, though you get a bit of a pass, if you’re straight, for being in a culture in which men are expected to initiate (though there’s nothing wrong with indicating in some way that initiating would not go unrewarded).

If no one you’ve expressed interest in has reciprocated, well, I don’t get the sense any mocking of that is happening.

Moreover, the first quote was the querent himself explaining he was desperate and lonely.

Just someone answer me this please w/o needing to resort to child like name calling and labeling of those whom you disagree with or don’t hold exactly and all the samw views as you: Why do you all gang up on and call out this guy, who I agree, he’s doing alot of things wrong and should walk away and should know better, but yet, none of you seem to be chastising “Stanley” or “Stella” for there various manipulative and other behavaiors? Why is that? What is the agenda behind all of this? Is that some of you engage or condone the same type of thing? Or, and not that it’s my problem, you really do like guys like “Stanley”?

Oh and @ #‘s 139,and 140, I was sarcastically mocking not only both the “Nice guy” attitude argument that you all at times seem to have an unreasonable problem with, but also the blatant hypocrisy on display from those saying that. Not that I’m a “nice guy” in how you describe,quite the contrary, I can and will be a stubborn,arrogant,s.o.b when I need too, but I still think I am a nice person when I want to be, or it depends on who I am dealing with,that goes for both genders, but you all spout the argument of acceptance of this and that, and overlooking “flaws and shortcomings”, but don’t hold yourselves to the same standard. Hmm, and you wonder why people might have a problem with you or disagree with you about certain things.

Just someone answer me this please w/o needing to resort to child like name calling and labeling of those whom you disagree with or don’t hold exactly and all the samw views as you

You’re the one who started the name calling, I, and it’s risible that you can’t wait to ask to be spared the treatment you initially started dishing out here.

Why do you all gang up on and call out this guy, who I agree, he’s doing alot of things wrong and should walk away and should know better, but yet, none of you seem to be chastising “Stanley” or “Stella” for there various manipulative and other behavaiors?

Oh, there have been some comments that did, learn to read and spell, troll.

I still think I am a nice person when I want to be,

Nope, you’re coming across as a brainless jackass.

,but you all spout the argument of acceptance of this and that, and overlooking “flaws and shortcomings”, but don’t hold yourselves to the same standard. Hmm, and you wonder why people might have a problem with you or disagree with you about certain things.

Ever hear the one about stones and glass houses, Iamlittledick?:

Well, I know what I am about to say won’t be left up for long, cause you’re all, esp the sorry excuse for a woman/person that runs this site will erase it, and you’re all a bunch of cunts,pussys,fags and hypocrites who like huddle around and jerk each other off and can’t handle the truth, I figure as long as I get to say what I want to say and can ruffle the feathers the likes of you people, it’s worth it.

Was it really worth it, or are your attempts to sound pitiful now a tacit admission that it wasn’t?

Thanks for playing, Iamlittledick.

Wow, someone can’t not only detect sarcasm, but takes what someone online of all places seriously. I’m flattered,thank you. I’m not brainless at all, I’m quite smart actually. I just see things differently than the p.c mandate.

Wow, someone can’t not only detect sarcasm, but takes what someone online of all places seriously.

I’m not brainless at all, I’m quite smart actually.

I’m sure your I.Q. is in three digits, base eight.

Erda, he’s a desperate lonely loser, not because he’s a virgin, but because he’s a jackass in the way he thinks of women.
That’s my take on it.

I agree.  However, Amanda seems to be mocking the fact that he hasn’t had sex at age 22.  She’s saying “look, he hasn’t gotten any tail! how funny” and then holding up his Nice Guy-ish tendencies as the reason why.

Erda, if you haven’t had sex because no one you’ve been interested in has psychically sensed this and made the first move, you are a Nice Guy™, though you get a bit of a pass, if you’re straight, for being in a culture in which men are expected to initiate (though there’s nothing wrong with indicating in some way that initiating would not go unrewarded).
If no one you’ve expressed interest in has reciprocated, well, I don’t get the sense any mocking of that is happening.
Moreover, the first quote was the querent himself explaining he was desperate and lonely.

All I said was that sex “just hasn’t happened yet for me.”  Why do you automatically jump to conclusions about WHY it hasn’t happened?  For the record, I did used to have a Nice Girl problem in high school, but I’ve since realized that the men and women I’m attracted to do not owe me anything just by virtue of me being attracted to them.  However, that doesn’t change the fact that I have socially anxiety and asking people out does not come easily to me.  So I only do it when I am REALLY attracted to someone, which doesn’t happen often.

This is the problem I have with the way that Nice Guys (TM) are often discussed.  Not all socially-awkward men who have difficulty getting up the ability to ask women out are Nice Guys (TM).  Nice Guyism is defined by a feeling of entitlement to all people you are attracted to, and it’s hardly exclusive to the socially-inept, either (it’s just more common).  Yet so often, it just turns into mocking people who have below-average social skills, thereby missing the entire point.

Edit: *social anxiety

Also @#143: Why do you assume that the fact that I am a virgin at age 21 is something that upsets me, or something that I am trying to “fix”?  I’m perfectly content with the fact that I’m not currently sexually-active.  I would like to have sex at some point, but “getting laid” for its own sake doesn’t appeal to me.

Erda, 149:

All I said was that sex “just hasn’t happened yet for me.”  Why do you automatically jump to conclusions about WHY it hasn’t happened?

Well, you said it wasn’t religious, and if you were asexual you wouldn’t have said “yet,” so that leaves not being interested in anyone who has indicated reciprocity.

And I never said anything about fixing.

Erda, if you haven’t had sex because no one you’ve been interested in has psychically sensed this and made the first move, you are a Nice Guy™

Not at all. Simply being shy doesn’t make you Nice. It takes that special combination of anxiety, self-loathing, resentment and self-centeredness to be Nice. Amply demonstrated here, in fact.

You have to be the kind of person who can earnestly say, “I despise you, you’re a loathsome human being, I don’t give a fuck about you or your problems, and I’d like you to perform oral sex on me and don’t understand why you won’t.”

@  #‘s 149 and 153: Erda’s right. They are mocking this guy in the same way that the “douches/assholes/jocks” that seem to be the talk of the day around here alot do. Amanda,in case you haven’t noticed, is a raging hypocrite like many of her types in case you haven’t noticed. As most feminists are. No way may owe you anything, but you don’t owe anyone anything either. Make sure it’s a two way street,and you aren’t being used. #153, I don’t think the guy who wrote this letter doesn’t not care about “Stella” the way you described. In fact, if anything, he cares too much, and while I think he should get the fuck out of there asap, you do all seem to be mocking him for things you either went through yourselves and have forgotten what it’s like, or you have just become the things you hate.

Amanda,in case you haven’t noticed, is a raging hypocrite like many of her types in case you haven’t noticed. As most feminists are.

As are you, in case nobody else here has noticed as well.

No way may owe you anything, but you don’t owe anyone anything either.

No way, intellectual of the double negative.

#153, I don’t think the guy who wrote this letter doesn’t not care about “Stella” the way you described.

Actually, “I don’t think” is an accurate description of your contributions to this thread.

you do all seem to be mocking him for things you either went through yourselves and have forgotten what it’s like, or you have just become the things you hate.

Nope, but thanks for demonstrating what stupidity looks like, Ihaveatinypenis.

How am I a hypocrite? Tell me what have I done to say that?

Oh wow. Spelling error. As I mean to say, no one may you owe you anything. Yeah. You’re so fucking perfect. Fuck you.

And look, if you are going to insult me, as you have so pettily attempted, at least insult me about things that are true, not what you think, which you can’t seem to be capable of, is true about me. And for someone who’s so seemingly angry at me, you sure do seem obssesed with my penis. Trying to say something here?

How am I a hypocrite? Tell me what have I done to say that?

Do you remember writing the following?

All in all, you chicks, and even some guys, do this shit to yourselves,and I really got no sympathy for you. And these responses, apart from mine, which is great, are just terrible attempts at snarkiness and comebacks. Oh, and if there was ever someone who needed a cock shoved in her every hole, it’s the feminazi she devil cunt that runs this hellhole. Amanda Marcotte that is.

You call people names, and then you act as though you’re entitled to respect.

Oh wow. Spelling error. As I mean to say, no one may you owe you anything. Yeah. You’re so fucking perfect. Fuck you.

And David Mamet trembles in his boots as he reads what you wrote here.

look, if you are going to insult me, as you have so pettily attempted, at least insult me about things that are true, not what you think, which you can’t seem to be capable of, is true about me. And for someone who’s so seemingly angry at me, you sure do seem obssesed with my penis. Trying to say something here?

Okay, you don’t have a tiny penis.

Happy now?

Ah see, when I “acted entitled to respect” as you put it, I was being sarcastic and busting chops a bit. I could really care less what someone online of all places say about me, unlike some on here…..

I just loathe Marcotte. Then why do I post here you ask? Well cause I can and they haven’t banned me yet. Do I really care either way? No. This is just another website to me.I also loathe with equal contempt Bill Donohue of the catholic leage for similar reasons if you want to be fair about it, someone who seems to be quite the issue of concern around here amongst some.

Well, it’s not even a penis or penis size issue for me or anyone else for that matter, it’s just that your insults lack creativity,that’s all. I’m not going to go on a board and try to brag about my penis size or anything else for that matter to try and prove something that’s all.I’m happy with itas isn.sue, and I don’t know if I should be flattered or concerned over your seeming concern over my penis,but I’ll take flattered haha, and I just thought I would point it out that’s all.