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Next entry: The Mainstream Hydra Previous entry: Community and the awesomeness of elitism in the face of haters

Phase II for Occupy Wall St. begins

The discussion over whether or not it's "good" for Occupy Wall St. to have been attacked in the middle of the night by a police force sent by Bloomberg is being tested today, and I think the "yes" side will bear out. The protesters are, as I write this, having a giant protest at Wall St. itself, attempting to delay the bell (and failing, but that's to be expected), but definitely raising a stink. Prior to this, there was a push-pull over the issue of Wall St. itself, because the security apparatus down there being what it is, actually taking the fight to Wall St. on a permanent basis has heightened dangers for the protesters. But now that the campers have been kicked out of Zucotti Park, much of the rationale for keeping it at a small distance from Wall St. itself has disappeared. This could be a good thing, albeit maybe not so much for individuals who are going to get arrested more frequently and with more violence. But that, in and of itself, sends a message; it's telling that the ugliness escalates as soon as they get that much closer to the Masters of the Universe who will not be sullied by having to interact with the ordinary people who they have fucked royally by treating our entire economy like it's a big casino. 

The question is, as always, what it's going to take to keep going forward. I think most mainstream media has taken it too much as a given that the protesters will lose interest as quickly as our media culture loses interest in any one non-adultery story, and one of the best things Occupy Wall St. has done has been to subvert that narrative and keep themselves in the news. What I hope is that they really do realize and commit to the idea that this is a long term project that won't take just months, but years. The civil rights movement has to be the model going forward, even as the Arab Spring was the initial inspiration. After all, the demands of the protesters in Arab Spring countries were usually the ouster of dictators, and Occupy Wall St. is calling for extensive policy changes to address the fucked up economic system we have here. That's a long-range battle. That's why the library is so important; boning up on history can be inspirational. 

I'm sure the occupiers are on it, but it seems to me that a smart move for phase II would be to maintain the occupation, but in a slightly more spread out way: safe houses and churches for stashing stuff, and maybe a bus or two, especially for housing the library and other information-gathering and transmission operations. Repeated protests at Wall St. itself, varied up so as to avoid the problem of media boredom. I think this can be done; I just hope that the occupation doesn't believe the media hype that petering out is inevitable. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:46 AM • (47) Comments

I’ve been wondering if it will peter out myself, apart from whatever the media says.  It’s hard to maintain that kind of energy; I think it’s great the movement has gone on this long, and I hope it continues.  Bloomberg is around for two full years yet.

Comment #1: ganews_  on  11/17  at  12:07 PM

I’ve seen a suggestion that the strategy shift from constant occupation to a series of flash mobs. It’s an interesting idea, not only for keeping the media’s attention, but also to help dispel some of the resentment against the Occupation that has been building among the very people OWS is working for (shopkeepers, commuters).

Comment #2: Cris (without an H)  on  11/17  at  12:18 PM

A little Mcsweeny’s philosophy on what could be won, from a chess game at the park pre-eviction: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/5-chess-game-best-of-three-zuccotti-park

Comment #3: ganews_  on  11/17  at  12:21 PM

I actually think that “Occupy” may fizzle out some, or morph into flash mobs and the like, but “We are the 99%” will carry on and move forward. At some point, the Occupy movement started to become (it felt to me) about the fact of occupying and the logistics thereof. I think of “Occupy” as more of a tactic, and the 99% aspect of the message more of the movement - if that makes sense.

Comment #4: LC  on  11/17  at  12:42 PM

ganews_: That was a great read, thanks!

Comment #5: Cris (without an H)  on  11/17  at  12:43 PM

The question is, as always, what it’s going to take to keep going forward.

I think, even beyond that, there’s still a question of where the protests are going.  Elections are a natural method of action.  Boycotts are a natural method of action.  The occupation itself is heavily symbolic, but hasn’t really accomplished much beyond creating internet martyrs and putting police brutality on display (not bad things to highlight in-and-of-themselves, but “84-year-old woman gets pepper sprayed” doesn’t lead to many logical financial reforms).

So I think OWS needs more pet projects and more opportunities to mobilize their constituencies.  That will keep things progressing forward and give OWS the image of an organization that can get things done.

Comment #6: Zifnab  on  11/17  at  01:08 PM

My feeling is that OWS was shut down when it was because a) Obama was off the mainland, and b) winter was setting in, and when people start freezing to death for something they believe in, it’s going to increase public sympathy for the cause.

Flashmobs and the like might be good at grabbing headlines, but I worry they won’t be as effective in maintaining the popular support that OWS was able to grab. Quick and dirty demonstrations are seen as quaint annoyances by most people: I marched in the Feb 15th protests in ‘03 and as much as it felt good to be part of the mob, it didn’t accomplish a whole hell of a lot. You can ride out a march or a temporary demonstration and then it’s back to business. Boycotts are incredibly difficult to organize and maintain and corporations have methods in place to break them. The occupation was the first really effective means of protest I’ve seen in a while.

Comment #7: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/17  at  01:29 PM

I don’t agree, Zif. You keep hearing people try to fit Occupy into the standardized organized activism box. Not that I have a problem with professionalized activism—-my consort and many of my friends are professional activists!—-but they have their own downsides that OWS has been able to elide by being noisy and relatively disorganized. It’s worth pointing out that the need for funding in professionalized activism can conflict with the antagonism to the “1%” that is driving OWS.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/17  at  01:45 PM

FYI:  “Tell Target to save Thanksgiving” is covering up part of your post.

Comment #9: Miguel Bloomfontosis  on  11/17  at  02:38 PM

Mighty Ponygirl @7 - I was in a march (massive, actually, Montreal turned out in force) in ‘03 and again, it didn’t accomplish a lot.  I do like the Occupy tactic, and think it shouldn’t be shelved.

I’m kind of halfway between Zif and Amanda on this. I do think the movement as a whole is going to spin off into groups that are more traditional and are focused on doing things, but I don’t think OWS/We are the 99% has to turn into a “group that gets things done”.  I think it remains strong as a banner/movement/big tent of “Things need to change and we’re not happy about it” without becoming an organization. Noisy and disorganized but swirling round a more or less coherent center seems like a good thing to be.

Comment #10: LC  on  11/17  at  03:55 PM

I don’t agree, Zif. You keep hearing people try to fit Occupy into the standardized organized activism box. Not that I have a problem with professionalized activism—-my consort and many of my friends are professional activists!—-but they have their own downsides that OWS has been able to elide by being noisy and relatively disorganized. It’s worth pointing out that the need for funding in professionalized activism can conflict with the antagonism to the “1%” that is driving OWS.

Yeah like… there’s somewhat of a point buried three levels under Zif’s post in that sure, over time, other activism should grow out of or be inspired by OWS. But that’s not really what the “what does OWS meeeeeeeeeeeeeeean” whine is really about.

OWS doesn’t ever have to be anything other than what it originally started out as being, which is a bunch of people sitting down in front of their rulers and saying, here we are, we are the people you’ve fucked over with your self-serving greed, we are going to sit here and make you look at us and for a tiny moment of every day you’re going to have to feel uncomfortable about that.

 

 

Comment #11: Dan  on  11/17  at  04:00 PM

Which is also to say, fuck flash mobs.

As long as we’re giving OWS free advice I’m gonna say fuck flash mobs or whatever. If they kick people out of the park then just like, set tents up on the sidewalk.

The best thing OWS can do is to say we’re here and we’re not going away, because hey guess what, the problems and catastrophes and disasters you’ve inflicted on the rest of the country, those are all still here, they have not gone away.

Comment #12: Dan  on  11/17  at  04:04 PM

Very much agree with Dan, which is why I think it’s important to keep a permanent encampment near Wall Street through the winter; it sends the message that “we are *not* going away”.

Comment #13: NY Expat  on  11/17  at  04:48 PM

Why is it that no one is talking about Occupys former and current rape policy and the angry men in it and how they are handling womens issues and sexual assualt? This is a feminist website and all I hear is rah-rahing and no criticism. I guess its good publicity for Amandas career (leverages her blog to get media apperances) to never criticize aspects of this movement which is sweeping so many, but not critizing this aspect of Occupy or even bothering with a simple post critizing their rape policy and misogyny within the movement is simply unforgivable.


http://jezebel.com/5853517/the-complicated-sexual-politics-of-occupy-protests

Comment #14: Bean Slap  on  11/17  at  05:25 PM

.....oh and speaking of the Arab spring (which may or may not dry up soon) its interesting that nowhere on any mainstream feminist websites did I read about the mass sexual assault of Egyptian womens rights protesters when they were kept out of having a voice in their own constitution. 200 womens rights activist took to the streets and protested and 400 men ganged up on them, pushed through the soldiers gaurding these women and sexually assualted them en mass. Of course Amanda was busy writing more about the angle that affected men than the hypocrisy of these men acting just like Mubarek and the hypocrisy of their treatment of Egyptian women. Focusing more on what affects men than women is patriarchal. Angles that leave gender out of the equation shouldnt be perpetuated by women, nonetheless women claiming to be feminists.

Comment #15: Bean Slap  on  11/17  at  05:35 PM

NY Expat,
Why dont they at least gender segregate the shantys? Perhaps have feminist occupy tents seperate from the mens so that the issue of misogyny and rape culture could be perhaps lessened.

Comment #16: Bean Slap  on  11/17  at  06:38 PM

BS, surely you have something better to do with your time than ceaselessly troll.

Comment #17: Punditus Maximus  on  11/17  at  07:05 PM

Umm, OWS’s rape policy is that they are against it and in general they are pretty much a model of political correctness in the positive meaning of the term. It’s true that there are angry young men about. I figure a few of them are agents provocateurs but the great majority are testosterone fueled post-adolescents dealing with a primal need to smash things who are given a host of prods in that direction by a city government intent to frustrate and demean them at every turn, not to mention an economic system that’s fucking with their, and just about everyone else’s futures. I can imagine a post on that phenomenon by Amanda would be very interesting, but certainly not under any kind of “your sposed to be some kinda femnist why don’t you write what we tell you to write” kinda formula.

I was up there today, btw, and there was electricity in the air. The park was surrounded by several hundred cops in riot gear and thousands of cops were all over downtown. There were no fewer than eight guarding the fucking Wall Street Bull which says as much about their priorities as any action. In addition to being comically worried about its bronzed fee fees, neighborhoods like East New York and Brownsville are practically war zones where rooftop snipers gun down pregnant women and every building in every housing project is terrorized by a violent gang. People should really be asking how they can spare thousands of cops to guard the paving stones along broad street and a fucking statue and they can’t make any kind of remotely similar effort to guard human lives in the less tony precincts of the city.

Comment #18: chuckling  on  11/17  at  07:30 PM

punditus,
So demonstrating that Occupy has issues with rape and sexism is trolling? The only one who is trolling here is you since you are offering nothing of importance nor debating the subject matter. You are no one to take the higher card on this one punditus, you stupidly presumed that I was a guy on another forum in spite of many posters pointing out that I wasnt, so what the fuck do you know about feminism?

So let me get this straight; were “debating” the issue so long as I agree with everyone and say everything that everyone else is saying. If I deviate from that then I’m a troll? Who the fuck are you to make the rules?

Comment #19: Bean Slap  on  11/17  at  08:34 PM

#18 chuckling,
Doesnt sound like thats true. They dont even have professionals dealing with rape but amateurs who sound more like they’d do anything to keep the police off their backs then have the women go to the police. Did you even read the jezebel piece? Dont let your rose tinted glasses torwards the occupy movement blind yourself to this issue. Also you simply sound like you are making excuses for their behavior. Why arent the women who have economic issues and are even more economically vulnerable than the men doing the same thing? So youre saying its justified that theyre out of work so they can rape, cover it up and keep her from going to the cops because theyre out of work? What kind of fucking feminist are; the wife beater kind? Also dont know if you know it but testosterone has nothing to do with it. Science today does not even believe that testosterone is the anger hormone anymore (science has also found women with high estrogen levels act like men with high testosterone levels). Has more to do with sociology, excuses like what youre making and gender privilege. If you make excuses for these guys then why not the police officers as well? Have they not been indoctrinated by the city government?What about the teabaggers-would you let them off?

About the latter part of your post, I think people should be asking why cops have to be dispersed to deal with a bunch of self-righteous arrogant middle class white people who dont understand you can have community without building a shantytown in a tax payed public place, and who distract cops from dealing with real adult things such as rape/murder/thievery, ect. Perhaps if they werent breaking laws and acting like a bunch of hypocritical, misogynistic shits then the cops wouldnt have to busy themselves with these arrogant over dramatic assholes? Tust me this movement aint going anywhere. It fucked itself by its very self-righteous arrogancy, by the assholes like you who make excuses for rape culture just because you’d put economics ahead of womens rights (on a fucking feminist blog no less), by the movements hypocrisy and by its corruption. Its no better than the “pigs” outside of it-just more dirty; at least cops never claimed to be better and at least they fucking bathe.

Comment #20: Bean Slap  on  11/17  at  08:51 PM

So youre saying its justified that theyre out of work so they can rape, cover it up and keep her from going to the cops because theyre out of work? What kind of fucking feminist are; the wife beater kind?

Wow, you’ve sure got me pegged. But you’re forgetting that I’m also Hitler!!!!

Comment #21: chuckling  on  11/17  at  09:22 PM

My predication: OWS ends when the Jobless Recovery starts producing more jobs. Ditto for the TeaParty. A double-dip would extend things but also sweep Obama out of office, which would extend OWS but end TP.

But by the time we get to the end of President Romney’s 1st term we will be entering Keynes’ long-run, ie when the market eventually prevails and jobs come back. Then, no more OWS.

Comment #22: Manju  on  11/17  at  09:23 PM

re Manju

The jobs aren’t coming back.  The 1% like the current situation.

Comment #23: msobel  on  11/17  at  10:09 PM

I agree with this analysis about OWS being handed an unintended gift by Bloomberg and the NYPD.  Their actions have only galvanized their supporters and brought new support….even from those who were initially opposed.  A few FB friends who were apathetic or even suspiciously hostile about OWS are now supporting the movement over their anger with the violations of civil liberties and brutality by the NYPD at Bloomberg’s behest. 

Unfortunately, there’s still a few jerks who hold on to the libertarian-oriented belief that “Equal opportunities, NOT equal outcomes.” and “OWS are all a bunch of riotous unkempt dirty hippies”.  Most of my high school FB friends and I are calling them out over their short-sighted and flat wrongheaded assertions.

Comment #24: exholt  on  11/17  at  11:27 PM

I agree with this analysis about OWS being handed an unintended gift by Bloomberg

If I were in Bloomie’s shoes I would’ve just pumped in some Ted Nugent tunes. That would’ve done the trick.

Comment #25: Manju  on  11/17  at  11:49 PM

#23 msobel,
Those that make over $100,000 support the Occupy people. Many teabaggers agree with their goals and align with them on issues pertaining to government and corporations. Do you really think its 1% thats holding them back or their own ineptitude? Because with allies like that I cant fathom why they cant get things done. Are you really that naive to think that just because you pass a bunch of legislative amendments that all economic corruption will end? Its called human fallability and any economic system that is set up will be exploited whether its communism, capitalism, hippie communes, ect. The only way is to make punishments something that anyone regardless of income cannot get out of. Theyre just angry and reaching for anything to blame and many big liberal faces are exploiting it for their own careers, even at the expense of womens rights. I want to hear more about what women are experiencing in these Occupy zones. Women shouldnt be thrown under a bus just to talk about economic legislation nor should any reforms be made off the systematic and deliberate oppression of women just to help the douchy faux feminist men out. You dont build economic reforms off of a foundation of rape and innocent victims. I know its not beneficial to amanda career to talk about these things but some of us arent sell-outs.

Comment #26: Bean Slap  on  11/18  at  12:06 AM

exholt,
According to polls there is now a majority of the public who are against them.

Comment #27: Bean Slap  on  11/18  at  12:07 AM

#21 chuckling,
Wouldnt doubt it chuckling.

Comment #28: Bean Slap  on  11/18  at  12:09 AM

Teabaggers or Occupy its always the men who turn it into shit.

Comment #29: Bean Slap  on  11/18  at  01:15 AM

Oh and chuckling I certaintly wouldnt want someone who claims to be a feminist and writes about feminist issues to write about the womens experience at Occupy. Thats for like, you know, real feminists and stuff. I wouldnt, like, want to prod her in that direction or anything!

Comment #30: Bean Slap  on  11/18  at  01:19 AM

Slean Bap apparently has been assigned permanently to the “troll Pandagon” beat.

Comment #31: Eric_RoM  on  11/18  at  01:51 AM

Srsly, I’m not even upset about this any more.  There’s more pathos here than anything else.

Comment #32: Punditus Maximus  on  11/18  at  02:15 AM

eric_RoM,
Quit trying to censor me by calling me a troll. If you have nothing to say about the content of my posts then STFU.

Yum. Goat milk.

punditus,
Again, youre the one who called me a troll for merely disagreeing with you and commenced on distorting my online voice. You are clearly the one with the pathos and are distorting the fact that you initiated it. If you hadnt been so insecure to begin with regarding dissent then you wouldnt have felt the need to censor people and mindlessly toss around the troll label.

Comment #33: Bean Slap  on  11/18  at  02:45 AM

Anyone hear of Zuccati lung?

Comment #34: Bean Slap  on  11/18  at  04:03 AM

Anyone hear of Zuccati lung?

Do you mean the type of thing that happens when a bunch of people are together in the fall/winter months?  That colds and such spread more easily because people are in contact with each other?

I mean, have you ever worked in an office or gone to elementary school?  Once someone gets sick, it seems like everyone’s hacking and sneezing then.  It’s that time of year where people get sick.

Comment #35: SporkeyO  on  11/18  at  08:26 AM

“Equal opportunities, NOT equal outcomes.”

I could get behind this sentiment if opportunities were actually equal. Sadly, we’ve been going backwards in that regard the last few years.

Comment #36: Jayn Newell  on  11/18  at  09:12 AM

Poor Bean Slap, being censored and oppressed by all the commentators around here, forced to use English that’s been put through a grinder before posting it here.

Thanks for defending the 1% against OWS, BS.

Comment #37: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/18  at  09:41 AM

Slean Bap apparently has been assigned permanently to the “troll Pandagon” beat.

And spamming.  40 comments in a row and it’s all “LOOOKKKKK AAAAATTTTT MMMMEEEEEEEEEEEEE I’m so oppressed/censored/flown in from WND”

That’s a lot of BS to scroll past unread.

 

Comment #38: Rare Vos  on  11/18  at  02:00 PM

I could get behind this sentiment if opportunities were actually equal. Sadly, we’ve been going backwards in that regard the last few years.

Unfortunately, that statement is trotted out to imply that if one failed at achieving success according to their standards…...that it is because they’re too lazy or stupid and thus….they deserve to suffer for their failures. 

It’s interesting to see how that mean mask has come off considering most people I know who are more successful than those libertarians making such comments understand there’s an element of luck in their success.  From their perspective, to make mean vicious “kicking them while they’re down” comments to those who aren’t “successful” is more of a commentary on the commenter’s negative character than anything else.

Comment #39: exholt  on  11/18  at  10:01 PM

If I were in Bloomie’s shoes I would’ve just pumped in some Ted Nugent tunes. That would’ve done the trick.

Well, the US used a similiar tactic outside the Vatican embassy in Panama.  Personally,I think “Achy Breaky Heart” played in continuous rotation would drive any protesters away.

Comment #40: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/19  at  02:16 PM

Well, the US used a similiar tactic outside the Vatican embassy in Panama.  Personally,I think “Achy Breaky Heart” played in continuous rotation would drive any protesters away.

True….but with the exception of the few traders, biglaw partners, and workers in the wall street area who like country-western schlock, it will also cause the vast majority of Wall Streeters supporting the top 1% to flee in terror as well. 

Other than Ted Nugent….maybe playing cheesy ‘80s hair metal bands from the Reagan area will probably work much better while not creating too much “collateral damage” for the friendlies supporting the top 1%. 

 

Comment #41: exholt  on  11/19  at  09:32 PM

Puh-lease…Everyone likes “Achy Breaky Heart” but no one admits it.

For OWS, its too unhip and as yet to go ironic. Culturally speaking, 1%ers have more common ground with the American Left than Right…so they also got ABH hidden with the porn somewhere.

That leaves Redstaters. For them, ABH is like what California Rolls are to the Japanese. This isn’t real country music. Its what Bluestaters think country music is.

But still they like it. Not as much as Harper Valley PTA, which get as close to universal love as anything this side of the Jefferson’s Theme Song, but still…its loved enough that you can’t pull a Noriega with it.

Maybe try something that’s secretly hated. In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida? Zappa? Stairway to Heaven?

Comment #42: Manju  on  11/19  at  09:59 PM

Puh-lease…Everyone likes “Achy Breaky Heart” but no one admits it.

Speak for yourself.  I certainly don’t.  Also, in the NYC neighborhood I grew up in…listening to anything country-like….especially schlock like ABH was a good way to be beaten up by older neighborhood kids for two reasons:

1. They think you’re a recent southern transplant and thus….a bumpkin.

2. They think you’re extremely “lame” for listening to “old people’s music”.

Comment #43: exholt  on  11/19  at  11:09 PM

Too bad all of this happy horseshit is logically inconsistent with the demand to “protect…our Constitution.”  I have no Constitutional obligation to provide for your

Comment #44: bESt buY  on  11/20  at  01:37 PM

“promote the general welfare” 

HTH.  HAND.

Comment #45: Punditus Maximus  on  11/20  at  02:29 PM

If there is a problem with sexual assault and silencing of women occurring at these Occupy movements….. shouldn’t someone be talking about them? If the movement has strong foundations, then talking about its flaws should be acceptable too.

My boyfriend has an extensive knowledge of history and doesn’t believe the Occupy movement will be effective considering how they are unorganized, lack clear goals, and lack leadership. My boyfriend is a socialist, for the record. He wants change too, but we both aren’t sure how effective the movement will be the way it currently stands.

Comment #46: ArtOfMe  on  11/22  at  05:43 PM

With all due respect, AOM, the excessive police response in the past few weeks to Occupy protestors demonstrates that the 1% don’t share your boyfriends’ POV.

Comment #47: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/23  at  11:09 AM
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