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Please, for the love of god, will someone get what’s wrong with Eliot Spitzer?

DemocratsFeminismSex

Eliot Spitzer’s trying to make a comeback.  Many dudes are on board.  Others say, “Lay off the man, he was just horny”.  Women, who spend much of their lives trying to tease out “just horny” from “woman-hating freakazoid” (which are sadly conflated in our culture) for their own safety, are much more likely to have reservations.

I, for one, object to letting Spitzer get off by pretending to be too stupid to know what this is about.  He’s a smart man, and I’ve read his writing.  He’s good at understanding systems, and puncturing through certain sacred cows of our culture.  Which means he’s got the chops to realize that the sacred cow of fucking women and then viciously punishing them for the crime of being sexual* isn’t cool. Isn’t cool at all.  But he’s going to play dumb.

Among the many odd traits of political animals is that while they tend to find themselves fascinating, they have little aptitude for, and less interest in, analyzing themselves. Spitzer is no exception. I asked him recently if he’d read any of the theories about why he was so reckless with Ashley Dupré. “No,” he said, clearly not wanting to say anything more. I started to recite some of the most common ones—that with the chaos of his governorship, his illicit sex life was a last refuge he could control; that he had been reckless and risked punishment because a part of him felt a need to be punished for never measuring up.

His face flattened, as if in great pain. “One thing I’m very bad at is being publicly introspective … The human mind does, and permits people to do things that they rationally know are wrong, outrageous … We succumb to temptations that we know are wrong and foolish when we do it and then in hindsight we say, ‘How could I have?’ “

Those are some theories, but not the ones I subscribe to.  My theory is that it’s something even darker than most people want to admit—-I think, and said at the time, that Spitzer is a sadist.  I think many to most men who hire prostitutes are on some level, and the rationalization is that the money makes fucking someone who really doesn’t want to fuck you okay.  And in a sense, it does, on the rare occasion that the prostitute is fully consenting to this lifestyle and not driven by violence or poverty into it. But the problem with Spitzer is that his sadism wasn’t limited to getting off by having sex with a woman who is technically consenting but wishing she didn’t have to be at work right now.  (Sex as a form of snapping your fingers at the waiter.)  Awash in the sexualized misogyny of our culture, he also had to make sure that prostitutes were tossed in jail for having the courtesy to fuck douchebags like him. 

That many men think like this is no surprise, since our culture is swimming in punish-the-slut messages, which feminists like to call the “rape culture”.  It’s why the virginity fetishists actually believe they’re helping women, because sex is automatically degrading to women in their eyes, which is evidenced by their investment in the auto-punishment of unintended pregnancy.  It’s why what she was wearing or drinking is considered relevant in a rape case.  It’s definitely why the routine humiliation of women who reject the protagonists to sleep with other guys in movies like “Observe and Report” and “Forgetting Sarah Marshall” feels mandatory to sell the movie to a young male audience that might be turned off by fears that romance in it makes it a “chick flick”.  And of course, it’s eroticized, and all you need to do is watch depressing pornographic products like (the perennially favorite classic example) “Bang Bus” to see how that works.  What’s surprising is that so many men manage to make it past all that and not develop crippling madonna/whore complexes.

Which is why Dan Savage is being way overly defensive in his post, where he insists that the outrage over Spitzer’s actions is rooted in anger at men for their “natural” inability to be monogamous.**  That said, the post is instructive, because Dan busts out a rumor that, if true, confirms my suspicions.

And like a lot men out there he had the means to hire someone to act out a “difficult” fantasy—choking apparently—that either his wife wasn’t willing to indulge or that he was to ashamed to ask the wife to indulge…..

And about the choking action: many men have sexual fantasies that involve ritualized sexual violence and it’s often difficult for these men to incorporate their fantasies into their marital sex lives—their own madonna/whore hangups; their wives’ inability to see incorporating kinks as a kind of lovemaking—and many of these men seek the services of pros.

Look, I’m with Dan insofar as I think a lot of men are completely fucked up by cultural messages that eroticize misogyny, particularly the madonna/whore thing.  Getting sexual scripts out of your head is nearly impossible, and the best solution is to find a relationship or even a set of them where you can turn those things from fucked up scripts into playtime, which often has the effect of getting it out of your system.  If nothing else, learning the ins and outs of truly consensual, scripted, super-duper consented-to BDSM may have the effect of getting men used to negotiating with women on an egalitarian level.  But this wasn’t a game to Governor Spitzer.  If this woman’s story is right, Spitzer enjoyed springing violence on women in bed, probably because their genuine fear turned him on more than faux fear.  Rape fantasies and role play stop being that when you start springing stuff that someone hasn’t consented to on them.

But even setting that aside, he busted up prostitution rings.  He sent women to jail for being dirty girls.  He wasn’t playing around at punishing women for being sexual and sexually available to him.  He did it for real. 

This, of course, is a danger when it comes to politics.  Politics attracts domineering personalities that are power-hungry, and some of them are going to find misogynist sexual fantasies about overpowering and raping women to be very exciting indeed.  But so what?  It’s their responsibility to find non-oppressive ways to act out their fantasies and deal with their issues regarding women, not ours. 

Just one more quote to show that what’s going on here is rooted deeply in fucked-up attitudes about masculinity, femininity, and the grossness of the latter:

Now he has a new companion. When he was a young politician with a tough-guy reputation, he preferred to walk only James and leave Jesse, the other family dog, at home. Jesse is a bichon frisé, the kind of dog that blue-haired women leave their fortunes to. “I wouldn’t take her out in public,” Spitzer recently explained. “I thought James was the better image for me.” Now, most any weekend, he can be seen trailing after both animals. “It’s like, OK, I have a bichon, a little white ball of fluff … I don’t care. What do you have to lose?”

*He was just as hard for throwing prostitutes in jail as he was for fucking them, remember?
**Dan is suffering from selection bias.  He doesn’t get a whole lot of letters from people who are like, “I don’t have any problems, my partner and I have been together for a gazillion years and we make each other happy, thought I’d let you know.”  Thus, I think he thinks there’s more dysfunction in relationships on average than there probably is.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:07 PM • (266) Comments

I first noticed this comeback kid stuff when Spitzer started writing for Slate.  One of the first articles he wrote was “how to finance your college education.”  I nearly spit coffee all over the screen. 

Considering how the young woman he patronized was paying for college, I really expected a two word answer “bang me.”

Comment #1: Ismone  on  04/21  at  01:03 PM

I don’t really have a problem with him being a writer.  But if people have hesitations about giving someone with such fucked-up attitudes about women power as a Democratic politician, then who can blame them?

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  01:07 PM

A pet peeve of mine is how people act like men are just ‘naturally’ more horny than women, so horny that they can’t control it, and MUST, YES, MUST go and act out their sexual fantasies at any cost. *annoyed by comments on the article*

Comment #3: shannon  on  04/21  at  01:08 PM

Which isn’t to say that men who’ve absorbed and have sexual hang-ups and issues regarding women can’t be politicians.  But part of growing up for men, for better or for worse, is finding a way to square the eroticization of misogyny away with treating women like full human beings deserving of respect, even if they are sexual in your eyes.  Since Spitzer can’t do this, we have a problem.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  01:10 PM

Ergh. I just read some of the comments on the link to Broadsheet, and I’m glad that I’m about to go take a shower. I need to wash the stupid off.

She lays out her objections to Spitzer’s potential governorship extremely clearly and articulately, and yet somehow people manage to entirely miss the point and reply with things like “I don’t care about his private sex life!” As if anyone would *want* to know the details of that guy’s PRIVATE sex life.

Comment #5: Zef  on  04/21  at  01:11 PM

Since Spitzer can’t do this, we have a problem.

I’d say so. I had no idea about any of this until I read your post, so I’m glad to be informed. I wonder how many other pols have similar fetishes?

Comment #6: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  04/21  at  01:12 PM

“Women, who spend much of their lives trying to tease out “just horny” from “woman-hating freakazoid” (which are sadly conflated in our culture)”

This sentence, and my inability to identify it in my own thinking, probably explains a great deal of my hang-ups about sex in my younger years.

I would like this on a billboard somewhere, please.  Or perhaps a “Basics of Human Rights” pamphlet to be issued to everyone upon puberty.

Comment #7: Byronic Commando  on  04/21  at  01:14 PM

Well, shannon, he does put “women” in quotes when talking about men being horrible at monogamy (women are bad at it too!) but something tells me that’s from years of having people bitch to him about it. But it does irk, especially when it seems he’s trying to go off of a biological urge rather than societies hundreds of years of indulging male behavior and entitlement.  Plus, when a high profile man like Spitzer gets caught, it’s just, “What was he thinking/Dumbass got caught” but for a women I doubt she’d get that much leeway.

And I think Amanda does have a point about the selection bias, it’s just like Jon Stewert when he was talking about how we never hear of the cars in Iraq that don’t blow up. Savage also has this meme that there’s more men who aren’t getting head from their girlfriends than gay men not getting head from their boyfriends and he specifically said it was based on the number of emails he would get from straight guys complaining about it.


“I thought James was the better image for me.” Now, most any weekend, he can be seen trailing after both animals. “It’s like, OK, I have a bichon, a little white ball of fluff … I don’t care. What do you have to lose?”

Ha ha. So now that he’s been publicly shamed it’s totally fine for him to walk the little girly dog in public.

Comment #8: UltraMagnus  on  04/21  at  01:17 PM

Maybe feminists should reconsider supporting Spitzer in light of this reason against him from a Right winger/wingnut/misogynist.
He pursued a thuggish investigation designed to intimidate crisis pregnancy centers while giving a pass to abortion clinics

Comment #9: Paul L.  on  04/21  at  01:19 PM

I don’t care about his sexual hangups. What I care about is that he broke a law that he puffed himself on enforcing.

Comment #10: JupiterPluvius  on  04/21  at  01:21 PM

Maybe feminists should reconsider supporting Spitzer in light of this reason against him from a Right winger/wingnut/misogynist.

There are plenty of pro-choice politicians who are not complete hypocrites.  It’s not like Spitzer is the only politician in New York who understands the difference between actual sexual-health clinics and brainwashing centers.

Comment #11: JupiterPluvius  on  04/21  at  01:23 PM

When did the dancing old guy from the Six Flags commercials get into politics?

Comment #12: norbizness  on  04/21  at  01:25 PM

t’s not like Spitzer is the only politician in New York who understands the difference between actual sexual-health clinics and brainwashing centers.
And is enough of hardcore corrupt power crazed thug to abuse the law and his/her office to persecute the “brainwashing centers”?

Comment #13: Paul L.  on  04/21  at  01:32 PM

“Which is why Dan Savage is being way overly defensive in his post, where he insists that the outrage over Spitzer’s actions is rooted in anger at men for their “natural” inability to be monogamous.”

It’s particularly stupid given how rote it’s become for famous people to get outed in the course of pursuing sex in shockingly risky ways.  Which stories hang around?  The ones where there’s an unusually high level of hypocrisy or malfeasance involved.  Which stories have the shortest shelf life?  The one where it’s just someone who engaged in weird/extramarital sex and then just happened to get “busted” by the national media.  Society seems significantly less interested in punishing men for popping inappropriate boners than in doing the same thing he frequently does in his own column, which is latching onto the disgraced-public-figure stories where there’s sex and a pretty good reason to get publicly cranky about the behavior.  I mean, for reals, here—did anybody even pretend to be outraged about Haggard because he’s a dude who had the gall to cheat on his wife?

Comment #14: preying mantis  on  04/21  at  01:36 PM

Elliot Spitzer was pretty much removed from office by the same sort of masters of the universe types that caused the financial crisis. 

This is one case where I *really* don’t give a sh*t about what he did, because this, frankly, was all about using a person’s dirty underwear as a bull baiting flag.  Fruit of the poisoned tree and all that.  At some point people have got be sick of sex being a huge scandal and money not so.

Comment #15: shah8  on  04/21  at  01:39 PM

Sadly, there’s not enough politicians who get that.  Perhaps Spitzer could make it up to the women of the country by actually pushing his Democratic colleagues to take action against crisis pregnancy centers instead of whine that he lost his power because he has an inability to avoid violent power trips?

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  01:39 PM

Maybe feminists should reconsider supporting Spitzer in light of….

Oh, was this article pro-Spitzer? I guess I have a comprehension problem, or at least, one of us does.

Comment #17: Danzig  on  04/21  at  01:40 PM

Anybody else getting flashbacks to Captain/councilman Aceveda’s effed-up post-rape interactions with Sara, the prostitute in The Shield?

Comment #18: nolo  on  04/21  at  01:41 PM

I don’t understand one key dichotomy about this.  Many of Spitzer’s defenders point to the selective prosecution of the man.  It is not impossible to hold these two thoughts at the same time:

  *  Spitzer was a serious hypocrite who deserves to be morally condemned for putting women in jail for the same crime that he was committing; he also should have gone to jail for it, period.  His career is justly over.

  *  He was unfairly targeted for political reasons.  Please: The FBI and SEC missed Madoff stealing umpteen billion dollars and nearly every other Bush-era corporate crime, and yet they managed to track lowball, five-figure cash transfers amongst the Spitzer family?  Please.  The one DA/AG in America serious about the kleptocracy that gave us the current economic crisis had his vewy owwwn task for assigned to his dick?  Come.  On.

And, I’m sorry, but absent kidnapping and rape elements the resources of the feds shouldn’t even be addressing consensual commercial sex.  The enforcement arm of the state shouldn’t be addressing consenting acts between adults at all, period, end of story.

Comment #19: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  01:43 PM

There’s something utterly fascinating about the way that the state reinforces the disdainful attitudes towards sex workers shared by the people who make sex work profitable—-the customers.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  01:43 PM

“(Sex as a form of snapping your fingers at the waiter.)” That is pretty much the funniest and most apt description I have ever read. Being able to capture something like that so completely in only eleven words is the hallmark of the very best writers. You really wow me sometimes. I’ll be quoting that for months!

Comment #21: DC Dave  on  04/21  at  01:44 PM

Really, it’s the reason that it makes writing laws about sex work so hard.  Trying to inject some rights and dignity for sex workers into the system makes it less appealing from a financial standpoint.  It’s headache-inducingly complicated.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  01:44 PM

Intriguing, and something I had never really thought about before. But it seems implicit in the entire prostitution angle…

Spitzer is a smart, clever, even sexy guy. He could have pursued affairs with interesting, attractive women who are just as busy as him. And that’s apart from questions about why he can’t seem to enjoy a healthy relationship. Paying for it isn’t about easier, hot nookie for a busy guy… it is about the power dynamic.

(Not to say it isn’t about the power dynamic of prostitution with guys who aren’t smart, clever, sexy and busy.)

Am I way off?

Comment #23: humanadverb  on  04/21  at  01:45 PM

Agreed, seeker.  The bullshit way this came out doesn’t nullify the revelation, however.  I wish life were that simple, but it’s not.  Which is to say I agree with you.  Even if we don’t like it, we need to embrace the complexity, because it’s not going away.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  01:46 PM

My eyes aren’t exactly brimming over with tears at the thought of a poor frustrated husband writing to Whatsisface whining that his Wife Just Doesn’t Understand his harmless kinky need to throttle her. “Wasn’t willing to indulge,” forfucksake. He only wants to pretend to kill you, you daft old prude! It’s all in fun and there’s no reason any woman would find that distasteful or distressing at all!

Comment #25: MissPrism  on  04/21  at  01:47 PM

Maybe feminists should reconsider supporting Spitzer in light of….

Oh, was this article pro-Spitzer? I guess I have a comprehension problem, or at least, one of us does.”

No, I think the argument Paul L. is putting forth is that feminists should change their minds about Spitzer being a reprehensible waste of skin because it turns out that wingnuts don’t like him either.  And, as we all know, feminism and the denizens of Jesusland must never agree on anything, lest the universe explode.

Comment #26: preying mantis  on  04/21  at  01:48 PM

Well, and Dan dodges the reason (which I know he knows) that many men can’t play at these fantasies with their wives, and it’s not necessarily the mean old prudish begrudging wives.  It’s the madonna/whore thing.  It’s not hot to do it to your wife, who is the Good Girl You Married and The Mother Of Your Children.  You have to degrade other women, sometimes severely, to reinforce your image of your partner as a madonna.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  01:49 PM

“I think, and said at the time, that Spitzer is a sadist.  I think many to most men who hire prostitutes are on some level, and the rationalization is that the money makes fucking someone who really doesn’t want to fuck you okay.”

That may be true for many johns, but it’s damned simplistic and an over-generalization.  This website has on countless occasions dealt with the totally screwed up sexual psyche of our culture, including the countless, countless obstacles (religious, legal, cultural, etc.) placed in the way of exercising straightforward sexuality outside the mandated prison of a conventional marriage.  It is a tad incomplete to decry the demonization of sexuality then decry one of the simplest ways of getting sex.  Prostitution exists in part as a linear achievement of a sexual goal: X wants sex (or a certain type of sex) then X can obtain sex if B is willing to sell it.  That drives a lot of people insane.  “What??? No marriage required?  No attorning to conventional sexual norms?  No hoops to jump through????  No holding one’s sexuality hostage to every single little pricky-shit with a religious, ideological or economic agenda?  Unforgivable!!!!

One of the reasons that prostitutes are dehumanized is the demonization of what they do.  If we concede that prostitution will exist, that it’s normal, inevitable and not the subject of legal viciousness, if we accept that a prostitute is both a person and a worker just like any other then we can go a very long way to ripping out the exploitation, cruelty and sadism of its current prosecuted existence.

Comment #28: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  01:53 PM

As long as he writes sexy sexy books.. hehee

Well there all kinds of douche-bag writers out there… I won’t be buying any thing he writes…

Comment #29: Nixxx  on  04/21  at  01:53 PM

And, as we all know, feminism and the denizens of Jesusland must never agree on anything, lest the universe explode.

They have the best funnel cakes at Jesusland. They’re sacrelicious.

Comment #30: Danzig  on  04/21  at  01:54 PM

“They have the best funnel cakes at Jesusland. They’re sacrelicious.”

Yes, but they won’t let you eat the ones that come out looking like Mary, so that’s a black mark against them.

Comment #31: preying mantis  on  04/21  at  01:57 PM

It is a tad incomplete to decry the demonization of sexuality then decry one of the simplest ways of getting sex.

But it’s not a simple way to get sex, unless you really don’t think of sex as an event that involves two people that enjoy the situation.  For a man who prizes a woman’s presence, desire, and pleasure, it’s a lot to overcome that just to get some pussy. Prostitution doesn’t strike me as sex positive in the anti-rape culture sense that I use the term.  Maybe a tiny minority of prostitutes really enjoy their work, but generally speaking, I think that the pro-sex message needs to be one that emphasizes that sex is fun, and should be for everyone in the room.  Dutiful women relieving men’s untoward tensions is the old, sex-negative view.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  02:03 PM

Okay, take my post at 12:53, add Amanda’s which says this:
“There’s something utterly fascinating about the way that the state reinforces the disdainful attitudes towards sex workers shared by the people who make sex work profitable—-the customers. “
.. and you get something said way better than I did.

Take the state out of it.  Stop demonizing “whores”; save the word for people like Spitzer, not the people they pay for sex.  Protect the sex workers.  Stop demonizing men or women who just want to get laid.  Of course, to do that our culture would have to get rid of the idea that it’s unacceptable in and of itself for men and women should be comfortable in and free to exercise their own sexuality of preference or choice without criminal or civil or religious or cultural harassment ... and it ain’t about to do that any time soon.

Bottom line?  The sex-haters know that if you up and admit that prostitution (in and of itself and absent cruelty and coercion) is normal and acceptable then the natural thing that follows, and cannot be avoided, is that free sexuality is normal and acceptable.  They rightly fear the thin end of the wedge towards a shame-free world.  And they hate that.

Comment #33: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  02:03 PM

Oy.  Not even going near the comments to that SL article, because I know what kind of sexist shit I’ll see if I do.  And enough with the fucking chest-beating about Manly Manly Manly Men, Savage.  Why does he frame it as “this is just what men are like” and then add “and women, too” as an afterthought?  The thought process is obvious: “I must defend Mah Sexual Prerogative as a Manly Man…oh wait, I’m going to get busted for being sexist.  I will throw in the word ‘women’ and no one will EVER CATCH ON.  I am so smart, SMRT.”

Comment #34: killjoy  on  04/21  at  02:04 PM

I’ll add that every time this comes up, someone points to the myth of the Sad, Unfuckable John to justify the widespread existence of prostitution.  The notion that prostitutes are a chipper group of happy ladies taking on charity cases is a popular one, but it’s not true, and the Spitzer story shows it.  Most johns can get laid by willing women.  It’s not about “getting” sex that you can’t get elsewhere.  It’s the specific experience of buying it from the unwilling that’s exciting, and if you ever read a board of men reviewing prostitutes, a lot of scales will fall from your eyes.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  02:06 PM

Who says that anybody has to enjoy their work for it to be valid?  Why can’t prostitutes enjoy sex with their lovers and have sex for their job?  To say that sex has to be an exercise in mutuality is an assumption.  It’s best if sex is an exercise in mutuality, but that’s a pleasure decision, not one which should have a cultural or legal mandate.  I read for pleasure, and I read for my job.  I expect the former to be fun and/or enriching; I expect the latter to be remunerative.

Comment #36: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  02:08 PM

“Prostitution doesn’t strike me as sex positive…”

It doesn’t have to be ... It just has to be exploitation negative.  Isn’t demanding that all sexual expression be “positive” just a happy-face flipside to the demands of the right that they all be negative?

Comment #37: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  02:09 PM

” ...and if you ever read a board of men reviewing prostitutes, a lot of scales will fall from your eyes. “

And what if I don’t want to read RedState or Powerline?????

Comment #38: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  02:10 PM

Seeker, we can quit harassing prostitutes without pretending that men who visit them are doing the same thing as men who enjoy mutually pleasurable sexual experiences with willing partners.  We can start by realizing that prostitution is the oldest profession because women’s lives are structured around being service bots for men, historically speaking, and realize that prostitutes are no more bad people who deserve punishment than other women working in the traditional jobs—-housewife, being the big one.  We can do this without pretending that men who visit prostitutes are great guys motivated by completely unproblematic attitudes towards women.  Certainly, for their own protection, women should be aware of what motivates men to visit prostitutes and steer clear of men who do as partners.  Also, realizing what’s really going on will make it easier to craft sex worker outreach to help women who want out to get out.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  02:12 PM

What??? No marriage required?  No attorning to conventional sexual norms?  No hoops to jump through????

Oh, you mean, hoops, like finding a person who actually finds you attractive and thinks it would be fun to have sex with you?  Yeah, my heart bleeds for you, man.  All those bitches holding the pussy hostage for longer than it takes to negotiate a fee—it really cramps your style, amirite? 

I’m kind of agnostic about sex work at this point, and certainly believe in decriminalization, but do NOT try to sell me prostitution as the paradigm of “liberated” shame-free positive sex.  If other people are happy selling sexual services for money that is their business, but I would not be, and doing things that don’t turn me on or make me happy is not *remotely* sexually liberating for me.

Comment #40: killjoy  on  04/21  at  02:13 PM

Who says that anybody has to enjoy their work for it to be valid?  Why can’t prostitutes enjoy sex with their lovers and have sex for their job?

They can.  You’re falling into the trap I want to avoid, which is making this all about women and their choices.  I’ve got zero problems with prostitutes.  Zero.  They do what they need to do for reasons that pretty much always sound legit to me—-necessity and, in rare cases, desire.  I’m not about to bash labor. I’m a good liberal.

My focus is strictly on management—-the men who are the pimps and johns that create and run the industry to satisfy their own depraved beliefs about women.  I think that it’s good and right to be honest about who they are and what motivates them, and the social lie that protects them hurts women.  Women can’t make fully informed choices when society is coming together to pretend sadistic men are something they’re not.

Comment #41: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  02:14 PM

“And what if I don’t want to read RedState or Powerline????? “

...we could pay you to do it?

Comment #42: preying mantis  on  04/21  at  02:15 PM

Why can’t prostitutes enjoy sex with their lovers and have sex for their job?

Why are you ignoring what Amanda said, so that you can ignore the misogyny of the men involved and mount a faux-defence of the prostitutes she hasn’t attacked?

The problem is with screwing someone who isn’t enjoying it and calling that sex. That’s not what prostitutes do. That’s what johns do.

Comment #43: sophonisba  on  04/21  at  02:15 PM

<u>Am I way off?</u>

A distant relative was married to a politician who got elected to a county-wide position before his premature death under somewhat suspicious circumstances.

Some of the stories she told me about their life together sound a lot like Spitzer, the husband graduated from an Ivy League law school,  was very brilliant and arrogant,  etc.  The same theme of power above all else.

I would say no.

the people who make sex work profitable—-the customers.

John School

This is john school, a new effort by law enforcement officials to stem prostitution in Los Angeles. Built on the belief that a heavy dose of in-your-face shame and scare tactics can do more to dissuade men from looking to the streets for gratification than traditional punishment, the class—think traffic school with higher stakes—offers first-time offenders leniency in exchange for a promise that they will change their ways. It is the latest example of how prosecutors and police around the country are rethinking their strategies in the age-old battle against prostitution.

“I’ve arrested hundreds of street walkers and busted countless tricks,” said Margolis, who spent nearly three decades working in the Los Angeles Police Department’s vice squad. “All those years, we’d send them to court, they’d pay a fine, spend maybe a day or two in jail and then be on their way.

“We’re never going to arrest our way out of this problem and we’re never going to stop it altogether. But we can try to educate johns about the dangers to themselves and about the violence the women face. Hopefully we can reduce the demand.”

The unexpected results, said Shively and Martin Monto, a University of Oregon sociologist who studies prostitutes and their clients, offer a window into the minds of the roughly 20% of American men who researchers believe will pay for sex sometime in their lives. The numbers from San Francisco and San Diego suggest that far from being hardened deviants, most johns—especially those who have had few encounters with hookers—are surprisingly malleable creatures susceptible to the full-frontal assault of john school.

“Most of these guys fall into one of three basic categories: Sad sacks who are looking for a girlfriend-like experience; those who don’t want to deal with the emotional component of a relationship and just want the sex; and thrill seekers. <u>Only a very small number are actual sociopaths</u>,” Shively said. “A lot of the themes in the classes appeal to these guys’ sense of empathy and self-preservation.”

Comment #44: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/21  at  02:17 PM

That may be true for many johns, but it’s damned simplistic and an over-generalization.  This website has on countless occasions dealt with the totally screwed up sexual psyche of our culture, including the countless, countless obstacles (religious, legal, cultural, etc.) placed in the way of exercising straightforward sexuality outside the mandated prison of a conventional marriage.  It is a tad incomplete to decry the demonization of sexuality then decry one of the simplest ways of getting sex.  Prostitution exists in part as a linear achievement of a sexual goal: X wants sex (or a certain type of sex) then X can obtain sex if B is willing to sell it.  That drives a lot of people insane.  ”What??? No marriage required?  No attorning to conventional sexual norms?  No hoops to jump through????  No holding one’s sexuality hostage to every single little pricky-shit with a religious, ideological or economic agenda?  Unforgivable!!!!”

Here’s the thing, seeker, it’s not an either/or situation with most johns like Spitzer.  They are men who want both obligation-free sex with people they can basically regard as human toilets AND the culturally sanctioned, convention-conforming marriage and family.  And johns like Spitzer are usually able to pull it off because society indulges this dichotomy within men.  In Spitzer’s case, while it was spectacularly douchebaggish of him to prosecute prostitutes while patronizing them it was consistent with his character.  What good is having whores around if you can’t punish them for being whores?

Comment #45: DonnaDiva  on  04/21  at  02:21 PM

Really, prostitution exists now as it always had because of misogynist attitudes about female sexuality, that being sexual makes one dirty and undeserving of respect.  That’s the conundrum of sex work—-a society that really respects female sexuality wouldn’t be one that created the demand for sex work.  For sex workers to get the safety and respect they deserve, we need to overcome these misogynist attitudes that create sex work.

Which is, of course, why sex work advocates are very harm reduction oriented, and I really respect that.  Pragmatism is the name of the game in health care advocacy, which is where most of that activism is aimed.  I’m behind those women 100%.  But I can be behind them and stand up for their right to be sex workers without pretending that johns are upstanding dudes with respectful attitudes towards women and no hang-ups about female sexuality.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  02:22 PM

“Seeker, we can quit harassing prostitutes without pretending that men who visit them are doing the same thing as men who enjoy mutually pleasurable sexual experiences with willing partners.  ..  We can do this without pretending that men who visit prostitutes are great guys motivated by completely unproblematic attitudes towards women.”

Not a pretense that I subscribe to, nor have I advocated it here, though I freely concede that it is a common one. 

“My focus is strictly on management—-the men who are the pimps and johns that create and run the industry to satisfy their own depraved beliefs about women. “

Exactly.  Make prostitution like any other professional which has its moral or physical unpleasant moments (criminal defence attorney and homeless medical care spring to mind), make prostitutes every bit as able to turn to the law to protect them rather than condemn them and we go a very long way to ending their dehumanization, turning them into workers rather than prey.

“... Yeah, my heart bleeds for you, man.  All those bitches holding the pussy hostage for longer than it takes to negotiate a fee—it really cramps your style, amirite? “

killjoy, for a start, please don’t go ad hominem and juvenile. 

““Oh, you mean, hoops, like finding a person who actually finds you attractive and thinks it would be fun to have sex with you? “

Take out the second person singular and address it as a concept and the answer is, yes, take that out of the equation if two consenting adults want it out.  Our friend X in the above example doesn’t need a doctor or masseur or whatever to find him/her attractive to touch him, and those are commercial services with intimate elements.  I don’t think that the state - or you, or me - should be in the business of mandating by law, judgment and enforcement what people’s motivations are when they fuck each other.  No children, animals or lack of consent involved?  No doing it in the street and frightening the horses?  Then it’s not your business, or mine.  The fact that you and I may prefer “a person who actually finds you attractive and thinks it would be fun to have sex with you” is very much beside the point.  As progressives we spend a lot of our time dealing with frosty assholes who think that their religious or cultural taboos should mandate our sexuality, so what makes you or me so damned special that our preferences should have the force of law???

Comment #47: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  02:25 PM

“If this woman’s story is right, Spitzer enjoyed springing violence on women in bed, probably because their genuine fear turned him on more than faux fear. “

Defense attorney checking in here. If that woman’s story is true (big “if”), it’s equally plausible that Spitzer did a poor job of communicating his desires. The woman gave zero indication that he was enjoying her resistance (beyond what was agreed to). She stopped it. He didn’t look mad. He tipped her. Amanda, you seem to agree that truly consensual BDSM can exist. This is the alleged agreed upon scenario:

“He wanted a scenario where I was supposed to say I had just been to a self-defense class. He was supposed to respond, ‘Let’s see if you learned anything. He would be aggressive. I would have to defend myself.

I don’t think it’s encouraging rape culture to note the utter lack of professionalism in this case. He would be aggressive? That’s your parameters? No mention of a safe word? If Spitzer were truly interested in “springing” violence on women, would he be requesting sessions were he’s going to be aggressive and the woman would be expected to defend herself? I’m skeptical that this woman is telling the truth. But I’m certain that it’s not reasonable to jump from her story to “Spitzer is a sadist.”

I think considering Spitzer’s legal career is far better evidence of sadism. And his unconsenting victims were, for the most part, not undeserving.

Comment #48: vladimir  on  04/21  at  02:26 PM

“And johns like Spitzer are usually able to pull it off because society indulges this dichotomy within men.  In Spitzer’s case, while it was spectacularly douchebaggish of him to prosecute prostitutes while patronizing them it was consistent with his character.  What good is having whores around if you can’t punish them for being whores? “

Exactly so, DonnaDiva.  And all that rests on the laws.  Get rid of the prostitute-as-criminal mentality and you suddenly turn the tables and the cultural message for the Spitzers of this world becomes, “dude, she isn’t fucked up ... you are”.

Comment #49: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  02:27 PM

Okay, a few things:

1) Dan Savage is a gay man and profoundly uninterested in female sexuality.  He’s going to get that part wrong a lot.  He is also profoundly interested in male sexuality and is going to base his arguments off of it.

2) It is possible to be hung up on both issues, both the selective enforcement and the awfulness of Spitzer’s brutal hypocrisy.

3) People who are driven to do the kinds of successful things Spitzer did are only sometimes at peace with themselves.  This is also about the brokenness of people that makes them have to do certain things.

Comment #50: Punditus Maximus  on  04/21  at  02:28 PM

WTF does that mean? I go to work becuase I am driven by poverty. In this MORON’S eyes, only rich whores who don’t need the money are legitimate and the rest are VICTIMS of “THE PATRIARCHY”!!

What a douche

Ah, the obligatory “my job sucks too so it’s just like prostitution” from someone who clearly has no personal experience with sex work.  Thanks for sharing.

Comment #51: DonnaDiva  on  04/21  at  02:28 PM

vladimir, what?

Comment #52: shah8  on  04/21  at  02:29 PM

I am really not thrilled with the idea of “john school”.  I think it’s a huge overstatement to say johns are generally sadists.  Idunno.  If a john and a sex worker get together and they both (but the sex worker in particular) feel generally positive about the experience I don’t think it’s a big moral problem, certainly not one that would justify involving law enforcement. 

That said, I would not be remotely okay with this in my personal life, either being a sex worker or being involved with someone who patronized sex workers, and I resent any implication that my setting boundaries on my own sex life, and supporting other people’s right to do the same, makes me some kind of sex-loathing bitch.

Comment #53: killjoy  on  04/21  at  02:30 PM

Make prostitution like any other professional which has its moral or physical unpleasant moments

We’re talking past each other.  I’m not for using the law to harass prostitutes, or necessarily even johns.  In fact, I think that legalizing it would really take some of the pleasure out of it for johns—-when prostitutes have a right to go to the cops after some guy beats her up, and they have to take it seriously, that’s going to be a big first step in reducing demand for prostitution.

I’m talking culturally. There’s a lot of pressure to pretend that men who visit prostitutes are just, like Dan Savage said, horny dudes, as if there’s nothing more there.  I’m not going to pretend that. 

Legalization can help, but because of the cultural issues, it ends up being the other side of state-and-johns-working-together-to-degrade-prostitutes.  Nevada runs their legal prostitution to maximize the tyranny and control that the pimps in the brothels have over the prostitutes.  Again, the problem here from the demand point of view is that if you take the pain and degradation out of it, it’s not as exciting for customers, and so the brothels lobby the state for ways to reinstate that element.

Comment #54: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  02:34 PM

“Dan Savage is a gay man and profoundly uninterested in female sexuality.  “

Not a fair comment, I think; if you read him and listen to his podcasts he’s not disinterested in women, he’s just anti-bullshit, male or female.  Misogynist douches get a very cutting treatment at his hands. 

I’m rather inclined to listen to what my women friends who love Savage have to say: they tend to like his calling out both men and women on bullshit and hypocrisy.  Dan isn’t anti-women, he is just as impatient with their BS as he is with male BS.  The fact that he’s pro-women and pro-sex enables him to do with flair and fun; pretty much everybody else that tries is some screaming, resentful, deeply misogynist MRA.  One needs one’s friends and allies to cheerfully point out one’s own flaws; we let them get away with a lot because they’re fun, funny, and ... in the case of my own friends ... often most right when they are the most cutting.

Comment #55: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  02:35 PM

Amanda at 1:34P: Agreed.

Killyjoy at 1:30P: Agreed re first para.  Re second para, where on earth do you get the self-loathing bitch part?  It seems that you and I are on the same page re sex workers on the one hand and what we don’t want in our personal lives on the other, but where on earth did that bit come from????

Comment #56: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  02:38 PM

shah, define “what.”

Comment #57: vladimir  on  04/21  at  02:39 PM

This is one case where I *really* don’t give a sh*t about what he did, because this, frankly, was all about using a person’s dirty underwear as a bull baiting flag.  Fruit of the poisoned tree and all that.  At some point people have got be sick of sex being a huge scandal and money not so.

Same here.  The political motivations behind bringing Spitzer down leave me wholly unable to have any sort of visceral reaction.  To a lesser extent, my lack of reaction also stems from the BS way former President Clinton got pilloried.

But you want to know the real crime - the thing that has pissed me off about the Spitzer thing from day one?  Where in the hell is the coverage of Senator Vitter?  You know, Mr. Family Values Vitter, Mr. Law and Order Vitter?  Moreover, Vitter is STILL A SITTING SENATOR!  Maybe Broadsheet ought to devote more bytes to Vitter - who still holds power, instead of Spitzer.  Maybe Broadsheet ought to attack the jackass with a position of power, instead kicking of the washed-up schmuck.  Then again, Vitter has been a loyal servant to his Wall Street masters instead of going after them hammer and tongs.*  I guess that buys you a pass in the MSM, but Broadsheet is part of Salon ...

* I had friends working in big downtown law firms defending the corrupt Wall Street financiers back when Spitzer was going after them.  From their stories, Spitzer was serious about white collar crime in a way no other prosecutor has been.  But like Amanda and Seeker have pointed out, things are complicated ...

Comment #58: Richard Goblin  on  04/21  at  02:40 PM

Urgh!  My grammar sucks.

Comment #59: Richard Goblin  on  04/21  at  02:41 PM

seeker, I dislike your tone, and your complaining about “hoops to jump through” pisses me off.  Jumping through hoops—social hoops—is part of life.  You can’t just have any relationship you want with anyone you want, and this is not, in and of itself, oppressive.  If your comparator group is people who sell sex to strangers, well, I make men jump through a lot of hoops before I get involved with them. 

I don’t think that the state - or you, or me - should be in the business of mandating by law, judgment and enforcement what people’s motivations are when they fuck each other.

I dislike your tone.  Also, you’re really, really conflating very different things when you say “the state - or you, or me”.  Saying that the state should not be in the business of enforcing moral judgments is one thing.  Demanding that nobody make moral judgments is another.

Comment #60: killjoy  on  04/21  at  02:41 PM

I honestly just think Dan has a selection bias.  That he gets more sad letters from men being cut off from women doesn’t mean that women enjoy being cut off from sex, or that it hurts less, or that it’s less common even.  What it most likely means is that women internalize it when they’re cut off.  We’re told every time we turn on the TV or step out the door that unless we are absolutely perfect in every way, we are disgusting and untouchable.  So when your partner cuts you off, you’re less likely to be like, “Dan, what’s wrong with him?” and more likely to be wondering if you’re making some error on the mandatory grooming list, or if he just noticed your cellulite, or if he’s decided that he prefers not to deal with your gross body and only use porn from here on out.  This is, of course, fucked up, but it’s very common.  Believe me, I’ve heard more than one woman in my life wonder if she’s ever going to find a dude who would rather have a warm, loving, but imperfect body than nothing.

Comment #61: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  02:44 PM

seeker, our two statements are pretty compatible; he can be disinterested in BS but not terribly familiar with how female sexuality works compared to his level of knowledge regarding how male sexuality works.

Comment #62: Punditus Maximus  on  04/21  at  02:45 PM

seeker, it’s this bit:

That drives a lot of people insane.  ”What??? No marriage required?  No attorning to conventional sexual norms?  No hoops to jump through????  No holding one’s sexuality hostage to every single little pricky-shit with a religious, ideological or economic agenda?  Unforgivable!!!!”

It’s the derogatory language applied to non-commercial sex, apparently all non-commercial sex: “conventional”, “hoops to jump through”, “holding one’s sexuality hostage.”

Comment #63: killjoy  on  04/21  at  02:46 PM

Richard, the problem is that everyone expects Republicans to be the kind of guys who sleep with prostitutes, so it’s less of a surprise and a violation when one does.  And why do we think that?  Because they have fucked-up, hateful, punishing attitudes towards female sexuality, and that’s the sort of thing that drives men to be johns.

Comment #64: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/21  at  02:47 PM

“seeker, I dislike your tone, and your complaining about “hoops to jump through” pisses me off.”

Aaaah.  You dislike my tone so it’s permissible to attack me as a bitchezhater whose personal style is cramped by women being human.  At least you’re honest about it, which is a dubious honour when you conduct yourself like that.

Yes, jumping through hoops is part of life.  So are badly designed roads, sexist enforcement of the laws, bullies and irritating itches.  I don’t see us leaping to their defence.

Comment #65: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  02:49 PM

People like Spitzer fascinate me.  They aren’t that rare.  How many of the “fallen” have been brought down by sex scandals?  What kind monomaniacal ego drives these fellows?  What could possibly compel them to risk their power and their family and the respect they have in their communities?  Just sex?  Just a lay?  Hell no, it’s the power trip of “buying” someone.  It’s the power trip of having someone to “use” as you please. 

To think you can get away with this type of thing can’t be anything but a total sense of entitlement; “I don’t deserve to get caught, so I won’t.  I am, after all, me.”  It is self-delusion on a grand scale.  A simple survey of history would tell them their odds aren’t good.

I still remember him dragging his poor wife up to the dias with him.  He cared not a whit about her humiliation.  He is past vile.  He is utterly dispicable.  He is also utterly clueless.  He has about the same chance of making a political comebak as Cheney does of growing a heart.

Comment #66: Magis  on  04/21  at  02:49 PM

I like my work okay, but I don’t do it for fun in my off hours.  I don’t think most jobs could be comparable to sex work, unless maybe something in the food industry, because we all eat too. 

Dan Savage’s sexuality had to come up, of course.  Gay men can’t be interested in anything to do with straight sexuality, even though straight people seem to spend a lot of time thinking about gay people’s sex lives, right? 

The main problem I see with prostitution is the pimps.  A lot of the women, and men too, out on the stroll are there to bring money to their pimp so they won’t get the shit beat out of them.  A lot of it, not just at the street level either, is more like slavery than employment. 

The news about the Craigslist killer points out the other major problem with sex work, even if it is completely voluntary, it’s dangerous.  It’s dangerous because of the men who use prostitutes.  Eliot Spitzer may not be a killer, and most of the men who go to prostitutes because they need someone to scare and hurt may not be killers, but they’re all playing in the park where the killers live.  They want partners who have to cooperate, not equal partners who can use safewords and negotiate scenes.  The fact that one type of rapist uses force and another uses money to achieve his goals doesn’t make one type better than the other.

It’s all about power.

Comment #67: G Porgey  on  04/21  at  02:50 PM

You may dislike the tone, killjoy, but the underlying message remains valid: linear sexuality is anathema to control freaks of all stripes.  Finding somebody that you want to sleep with and who wants to sleep with you and being allowed to do it without being excommunicated, shunned, arrested or beaten up is linear sexuality.  Two consenting adults reaching a commercial agreement whereby money is exchanged for sex is linear sexuality.  Whether it’s your nice corner pastor, the vice cop, the ambitious politician, one’s friends who think that if you identify as gay you shouldn’t sleep with the opposite sex or if you identify as straight then you shouldn’t sleep with the same sex .... and so on and so on ... there are an awful lot of people greatly invested (fiscally, culturally, emotionally and ideologically) in getting in your way, all the time, every time.  And they spend a great, great, great deal of time making sure that free people can jump in no direction that doesn’t have it’s hoop of obligations or shame or laws.  If my disdain for such creeps shows in a cutting tone then I am truly sorry so far as an apology is merited.  Which is not at all.

Comment #68: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  02:54 PM

Believe me, I’ve heard more than one woman in my life wonder if she’s ever going to find a dude who would rather have a warm, loving, but imperfect body than nothing.

I hate it when women (and men) I know sincerely feel this way - that feeling of being reduced to merely “better than nothing.”  That is a real jump down from “will I ever find someone who will appreciate my body.”  How can it get so bad that we go from “who will appreciate me” to “who will prefer me to nothing at all”!?

How in the hell did our culture get to this point?  We are not a happy people are we?

Comment #69: Richard Goblin  on  04/21  at  02:56 PM

I’m rather inclined to listen to what my women friends who love Savage have to say: they tend to like his calling out both men and women on bullshit and hypocrisy.

See, this sounds a lot like “I know women who disagree with you, therefore you are wrong about all women everywhere.”

Savage is pretty open about finding female genitals gross, for one thing; for another, he’s prone to the odd fit of chest-beating about what “real” men are like (impersonal, perpetually horny, emotionally detached, incapable of monogamy, etc.) and how dumb and naive women are if we expect anything else.  He also has a tendency to generalize about women and patronize us about our unrealistic expectations of romance; I remember a lovely little column of his from a few years back in which he lectured all of womenkind about how impractical and silly it was to expect a boyfriend to want to make love on a bed covered in rose petals surrounded by candles, as if this lecture were remotely necessary or interesting for anyone but a tiny minority of women.

He’s improving, but it’s still there.

Comment #70: killjoy  on  04/21  at  02:58 PM

“most of the men who go to prostitutes because they need someone to scare and hurt may not be killers, but they’re all playing in the park where the killers live. “

This is not only true, but also well-written.

Comment #71: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  02:59 PM

Yes, jumping through hoops is part of life.  So are badly designed roads, sexist enforcement of the laws, bullies and irritating itches.  I don’t see us leaping to their defence.

Hmm, so when I don’t immediately hop on the cock of every man who tries to grab my ass at a bar, that’s comparable to bullying someone.  Great.

Comment #72: killjoy  on  04/21  at  03:03 PM

See, this sounds a lot like “I know women who disagree with you, therefore you are wrong about all women everywhere.”

I actually listen to, respect, and integrate into my thinking the views of the women around me.  I advance their views because they have worth.  I note for clarity that “I’m rather inclined to listen”, using the first person singular to denote that it is my acceptance of their views rather than a mandatory rule.  Ergo I am insisting that my male view thus makes everybody else wrong about women?

Wow.  I must have missed the memo about Opposite Day.  Hobbes will be vexed.

Comment #73: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  03:09 PM

I actually listen to, respect, and integrate into my thinking the views of the women around me.

That’s not what you said; you said you listen to the views of women who agree with you.

Comment #74: killjoy  on  04/21  at  03:13 PM

killjoy, at some time in your life you were dropped in a hyperbole vat.  If you can’t distinguish between a general and the specific, the wider discussion and the personal then there’s really no point in continuing.

Comment #75: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  03:16 PM

To the poster using the vulgar name at 2:05 pm.  Fuck off and die alone.

Comment #76: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  03:17 PM

“That’s not what you said; you said you listen to the views of women who agree with you. “

I said nothing of the sort and it’s arrant bullshit to say so.  If you are going to mischaracterize what I’ve said it only confirms me in my decision not to engage with you.  We’re done.

Comment #77: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  03:19 PM

I like seeker’s point about un-demonizing both the prostitute and the john.

Most guys masturbate at least once a day from the time they’re 14 until they’re 25.  I’m in my mid-30’s, and me and my buddies still talk about how we masturbate several times a week.  And I think even older guys masturbate with an under-appreciated frequency. 

I don’t think you need to be a guy who has something seriously wrong with you to think that, if you’re going to ejaculate anyway, it would be nice to have breasts and a vagina, and maybe a mouth and neck to kiss, to go along with your masturbation. 

Now, if no woman in her right mind would be willing to get paid to make herself available for this, I could be convinced that it’s morally wrong.  But, assuming women would willingly be available, I don’t think arguments about how the woman wouldn’t really be enjoying it as a sex act, or that the guy should find a willing partner the old fashion way, are very compelling.

Comment #78: Wallace  on  04/21  at  03:25 PM

I enjoy listening to the Savage Lovecast—and I think a lot of the criticism that’s being leveled on Dan is a little unfair.  He can give incredibly thoughtful advice and I enjoy listening to him.

Exhibit A: A gay male caller calls in to complain about how he’s a power top and his partner is a top, and the caller didn’t like being a bottom one bit because it made him feel like a woman, and he hated that because women are stupid, and his favorite kind of sex was basically to hold down his partner and fuck him until his asshole bled and he hated being subjugated by being the weak, womanly bottom. Dan called this guy up and just destroyed this guy. He didn’t really go into the rape fetish: he doesn’t judge people on their sexual grooves so long as when all is said and done everything is consensual… but he spent about five minutes yelling at this guy for being an asshole misogynist—gay or no, he had to get over himself, not treat women like “the enemy” and whatever his views on actual power top sex are, he had to grow up and stop thinking of women as hateful things to be fucked.

Exhibit B: A woman calls in because she’s afraid her 18-year-old friend who is a virgin is seeing this skeezy guy who wants to move really fast and he’s a creep and he’s talking about getting married way too soon and whatever should she do to stop her friend from falling off this cliff? Dan basically points out that there’s not a lot she can do beyond simply stating her opinion and then backing off, but then (and I found this incredibly cool), he began talking about the expectations on women: that at 18, this friend may feel that it’s time to have her cherry popped, isn’t really looking for a particularly meaningful relationship, and is just with this guy so that he can fuck her, get it over with, and she can move on with her life, dumping the guy, and not have a bunch of emotional baggage attached to her first time—which, more likely than not, is going to be a little uncomfortable and painful and embarrassing anyway (and a lot of people do in fact gravitate to the total losers for their first fuck for precisely that reason).  But because women are supposed to place so much emphasis on love with sex, that the society that we live in would call her a dirty slut if she admitted that this was the reason she was entertaining this jerk, and so she’s just playing along that she loves this guy and wants to be with him, knowing full well that she’s going to dump his ass the moment the deed is done, because it’s a lot easier to pretend like it was supposed to work and then it didn’t than to deal with a bunch of judgemental people in your life calling you a skank and a heartbreaker. I thought this was a really interesting and in-depth analysis, he went far beyond the simple interpretation of the question into a real analysis of how female sexuality is treated in our culture. Whether or not it was an accurate call on this particular call, I found it tremendously insightful and very cool and brave of him to broach.

I’m not saying he bats 1000, but usually when he fucks up, he at least listens to criticism and works on it and usually comes out the better for it. I guess if we expected everyone to be perfect all the time then I would say you could do better than Savage, but as far as someone who isn’t just a complete blowhard who won’t consider criticisms or try to evolve his thinking, you could certainly do a lot worse than Savage.

Comment #79: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/21  at  03:30 PM

Wallace, if one is going to see the prostitute as nothing but a cum receptacle (to shamelessly steal Amanda’s phrase) then one can question whether un-demonizing the prostitute has any moral or philosophical point if the next stage is to merely dehumanize her.

Comment #80: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  03:30 PM

Yeah, works for me.  I’m not sure how you can have hung around this long, presumably read Amanda’s multiple posts on Nice Guys, and not understand that there’s an immense amount of hostility directed at women who have the gall to choose the partners we want rather than gratefully accepting anyone who will have us.

Not everybody I’ve liked in my life has liked me back.  This was no fun, and it made me sad, but I don’t consider it some kind of oppression, an offensive upholding of the social conservative status quo, or an arbitrary hoop to jump through.  I get that you didn’t literally say refusing to fuck someone is like bullying or legal injustice, but the fact is you associated the concepts speak volumes. 

I do defend people’s right to choose the friends and partners they want.  Unlike bullying, legal injustice, and itchy rashes, this is a valuable thing, even if it makes some people sad or angry.  Your apparent inability to understand women’s right to choose partners as anything but an irritating cramp in men’s style makes me agree that we have nothing to say to each other.

Comment #81: killjoy  on  04/21  at  03:31 PM

vladimir, mostly the last sentence, but I’m really not sure how to take your entire post, really…

Comment #82: shah8  on  04/21  at  03:32 PM

Without reading or commenting on any of the above comments I would say to Amanda this;

I’m not so sure it’s misogyny.  Which isn’t to let Spitzer off the hook at all.  It’s just as likely thats part of the equation here.  Rather, I would suggest what we might be seeing here the standard class entitlement men such Spitzer enjoy.  Sex workers are of the lower class right along food servers and anyone else without a nice degree (and some of them even have nice degrees).  Those lower classes deserve none of the protections or privileges the upper classes are born with.  Whether it’s opportunity, equal pay or the right to justice, the lower classes are judged by a different standard and if you don’t think so, I would suggest that you, the reader, come from the privileged group.

So whether Spitzer is a misogynist in this case misses the specific point.  What’s important to me is that he’s displayed and acted out the same hypocritical “one law for thee and one law for me” that most of the rest of the upper class use as a bludgeon, every day, to keep the rest of us in line.  Misogynist or Classist, he’s a fuck either way and I have no use for him.

As for Dan Savage, I suspect he’s closer to the truth than you realize but I do agree that he suffers from selection bias in some of his views.  True, absolute monogamy is a lot more rare than the vast majority of people want to admit.  That doesn’t make Sptizer less of an asshole or make Savage more of one.  It just is.  Any other view, in my opinion and experience, is more wishful thinking than anything else.

Comment #83: ice weasel  on  04/21  at  03:35 PM

Seeker, how would you contrast your perception of the prostitute with mine?  Is she anything other than an available body?

Comment #84: Wallace  on  04/21  at  03:37 PM

I don’t find the hypocrite argument that compelling.  If he had busted medicinal marijuana co-ops while growing dope in his closet, I wouldn’t feel that attached to the idea that his career had to be over because he was a hypocrite.

Comment #85: Wallace  on  04/21  at  03:39 PM

Not a fair comment, I think; if you read him and listen to his podcasts he’s not disinterested in women, he’s just anti-bullshit, male or female.  Misogynist douches get a very cutting treatment at his hands.

No.  Dan’s advice is extremely male centric.  His solution for sexual problems is for women to act more like men in bed or to want what men want.  Take his GGG (good, giving, and game) maxim as one example.  With the exception of certain sex acts that make HIM squeamish (incest, bestiality, and scat play), everyone is obligated to indulge their partner’s kinks.  It just so happens that men tend to be kinkier than women, which more often than not puts the onus on women to cave to their partners’ demands, lest their partners get the go ahead from Dan to DTMFA or cheat.  It doesn’t really matter to him if women have a legitimate reason not to indulge those kinks.  Spitzer is an illustrative example.  He likes to choke women, which is really fucking scary and can be extremely dangerous, but the real problem is that Spitzer’s wife wouldn’t have done it, as if she wouldn’t have a legitimate reason to refuse.

Meanwhile, Dan rarely if ever gives out advice to men on how to satisfy women in bed, with the exception of applying his male centric advice to women’s needs and desires.  He doesn’t have the slightest fucking idea what he’s talking about when it comes to women’s needs, and I doubt he cares.  In my personal experience and from talking to friends, I’d say men would greatly benefit from being more intimate, passionate, and loving in bed.  I will shit a brick if Dan EVER offers that advice to a man writing in because the wife won’t fuck him.  His advice in that situation is ALWAYS: tell her to fuck you or you’ll dump her or cheat.

Aaaah.  You dislike my tone so it’s permissible to attack me as a bitchezhater whose personal style is cramped by women being human.  At least you’re honest about it, which is a dubious honour when you conduct yourself like that.

To be completely frank, seeker, you have indicated in the past your annoyance and frustration with women who are not currently fucking you.  It’s not your tone; it’s your obvious resentment of the bitches who deny you sex.

Yes, jumping through hoops is part of life.  So are badly designed roads, sexist enforcement of the laws, bullies and irritating itches.  I don’t see us leaping to their defence.

Yeah, having a couple of drinks with someone to get to know her before fucking her is akin to badly designed roads.  You do realize what this statement says about you?

Comment #86: keshmeshi  on  04/21  at  03:40 PM

Again, the problem here from the demand point of view is that if you take the pain and degradation out of it, it’s not as exciting for customers, and so the brothels lobby the state for ways to reinstate that element.

I am repeatedly amused by your biases towards men who would even consider patronizing consensual sex workers, based apparently on no empirical evidence except occasional reviews of escort review sites.  That’s rather like judging a population of radio talk show listeners based on the people who call in.  But I read a couple of them sometimes and don’t reach the same conclusions about them at all, since there seems to be just as much an expressed desire to give their paid partners orgasms as there is among civilians.

I’m behind those women 100%.  But I can be behind them and stand up for their right to be sex workers without pretending that johns are upstanding dudes with respectful attitudes towards women and no hang-ups about female sexuality.

Yeah, you’re 100% behind them, you just don’t want them to have any customers.  For you it’s not pretending, it’s an established belief to the contrary. 

The Canadian model for prostitution makes a lot more sense than the U.S. one.

Seeker, I enjoy your writing and point of view so much on various topics I am beginning to read this blog to try to find your stuff.  Kudos on all of the above.

Comment #87: MiddleageLiberal  on  04/21  at  03:42 PM

<blockquote>I like seeker’s point about un-demonizing both the prostitute and the john.

Most guys masturbate at least once a day from the time they’re 14 until they’re 25.  I’m in my mid-30’s, and me and my buddies still talk about how we masturbate several times a week.  And I think even older guys masturbate with an under-appreciated frequency.

I don’t think you need to be a guy who has something seriously wrong with you to think that, if you’re going to ejaculate anyway, it would be nice to have breasts and a vagina, and maybe a mouth and neck to kiss, to go along with your masturbation.  </blockquote.

Did it ever occur to you that nearly all women masturbate too?  What if women thought that since they’re gonna have an orgasm anyway, they might as well have a dick and nice butt to go with it?  What if women just thought of men as bodies to go along with our masturbation?  When you describe a prostitute as just breasts and a vagina, do you really need an explanation of why that sounds misogynistic?  Don’t try to tell me that “men are just horny”, because women are just as horny.

Comment #88: bananacat  on  04/21  at  03:46 PM

“I’m not saying he bats 1000, but usually when he fucks up, he at least listens to criticism and works on it and usually comes out the better for it.”

He’s also fond of running online extras when an issue generates a particularly large number of “RE: your response” emails, where he just posts a slew of opinions from the peanut gallery.  It’s nice to have a columnist who’s willing to post fifteen “Your response sucked in the bad way” emails without (much) comment as an amendation if there seems to be a consensus that their original advice blew goat.

Comment #89: preying mantis  on  04/21  at  03:50 PM

I don’t get your point, catgirl.  I don’t find anything offensive about the idea that women would like men to be available basically as masturbatory implements, and that it should be legal for men to make themselves available to fulfill that need in exchange for money.  My point doesn’t have anything to do with which gender is more or less horny.

Comment #90: Wallace  on  04/21  at  03:51 PM

Seeker, I enjoy your writing and point of view

If MiddleageLiberal agrees with you, it’s time to reconsider your POV.

Apart from that, I usually like seeker, but the fact is that I’m an anti-capitalist and committed to that view. The profit motive/economic necessity is itself a denial of consent. I view johns the same way I view bosses… and if you’re squeamish you don’t want to know my opinion on bosses.

Comment #91: BlackBloc  on  04/21  at  03:52 PM

But part of growing up for men, for better or for worse, is finding a way to square the eroticization of misogyny away with treating women like full human beings deserving of respect, even if they are sexual in your eyes.

Part of it is also not reproducing it around other men.  There’s a pretty heinous dynamic that creeps in whenever a group of men are together exclusive of any women.  It doesn’t take long for the discourse to devolve and create a nasty kind of frat-house atmosphere where simple talk about desire melts into totally misogynistic language.  Seriously, about the only time I *don’t* see this happen is when the all of the guys present are actively involved in some kind of feminist discourse.  It’s pretty awful and has really made me wonder about guys who I think of as otherwise really okay about these things.  I do see the same dynamic any time there are only white/straight/etc. people in a room, but it never develops as quickly or as drastically as in an all-male environment.

Comment #92: jTuba  on  04/21  at  03:55 PM

Just to comment on the end of Amanda‘s comment at the end of the post at 1:44 and the follow-ups…

As a hard of hearing guy who is apparently considered handsome by the other sex, I really get that whole better than nothing alot.  I’m pretty enough for the lunchladies to grope, but not worthwhile for actual dates (not that I’ve actually tried very hard + being mostly where the women aren’t).  On the other hand, I get women that I’m not interested in throwing themselves at me in the sense that they are better than nothing.

My standards are really not that high, I just want an at least moderately physically active person (not necessarily non-fat, just someone who wouldn’t faint at the idea of outdoor activities) who is intellectually active (meaning that they read, for the most part) in some way.  Yet the dominant logic of the world sez that the cripple should be grateful for everything we “give” them.  It’s really wierd how being a broken person in one way has meant that I’m broken for all ways…

Oh yeah, that’s why I’m a misanthrope!  Better than nothing is just bad news for all concerned.

Comment #93: shah8  on  04/21  at  03:57 PM

Hmm, so when I don’t immediately hop on the cock of every man who tries to grab my ass at a bar, that’s comparable to bullying someone.  Great.

It’s less that absurd scenario, and more the idea that you seem to think the particular “hoops” that seeker mentions are worthy of defence. There’s a middle ground between being expected to give in to every sexual advance, no matter how crude, and what Richard Goblin accurately describes as a very sexually unhappy mainstream culture that insists that sex be preceded by “hoops”—like marriage, hewing to conventional sexual norms, and attaching political or religious or (as is often the case of libertarians and Objectivists and MRAs) economic significance to every roll in the hay.

Seeker is operating in that middle ground, and it’s unfair to say that he’s claiming women shouldn’t have the right to choose their partners. If he has a problem, it’s with how (and sometimes why) many Americans of both genders choose their partners. And I’d agree—those hoops suck, too.

The only “hoop” that needs to be jumped through is a basic acknowledgment of one’s sexual partner’s (potential or otherwise) humanity and agency—an acknowledgment that’s often (but not always) missing not only from prostitution, but also from many non-commercial sexual relationships.

As to Spitzer, I’m with those who say he’s lost credibility as a politician because he was exposed as engaging in the same behaviour he made his bones prosecuting—and also with those who say that exposure was orchestrated by corporate interests to get him out of the way before their various schemes collapsed.

Comment #94: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  03:57 PM

Wallace, your privilege is showing.  You’ve never actually lived in a society where you are considered an object for the fulfillment of women’s sexual desires.  It might seem great to you in theory, but in reality, imagine one of your grandma’s friends trying to buy you.  Or, imagine a job interview where you are not taken seriously as a scientist/accountant/whatever because other men who look like you are just too pretty and you should be taking money to fulfill the sexual needs of women who are too lazy to shower regularly.  Also consider the resentment of the ugly women who don’t like you because you won’t screw them for free even though your life revolves around looking attractive and she can’t be bothered to care about her appearance because she’s doing important macho stuff.

Comment #95: bananacat  on  04/21  at  03:59 PM

how would you contrast your perception of the prostitute with mine?  Is she anything other than an available body?

She’s a professional with an honestly stated need (usually for money) and deserves to be treated with a certain degree of respect. The difference between your views is illustrated by a john who springs his desire for rough, scary sex on a prostitute in the middle of things (because he’s purchased an object/prop for X hours), versus a john who makes his expectations clear in advance (because he’s engaged another human being in sexual services for X hours).

In her original post, Amanda is getting at deeper issues as to why the first case defines prostitution in America more often than the second one does—issues that have a lot to do with patriarchy and misogyny.

Comment #96: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  03:59 PM

shah8,

The last sentence is a reference to his aggressive pursuit of financial types in his legal career. I think of sadism as taking pleasure in the pain of others. I think a review of Spitzer’s legal career shows better evidence of this than extrapolating his mindset from an anonymous and unreliable report. Spitzer was fairly merciless with the Wall St. types. That’s why they’re his victims. Do I really need to argue that they were deserving of such ruthlessness?

What I didn’t get about Amanda’s sadism reference from her original post, but see fleshed out in the comments, is the idea that paying for sex with unwilling women is part of the package that men seek in hiring prostitutes. I don’t agree with that. I consider it problematic, certainly in terms of consent. I’m trying to better understand her point but I think her use of the term “sadist” is distracting me.

A real sadist is a person who takes pleasure in causing pain in others without their consent. An ethical/play sadist is a person who takes pleasure in causing pain in another with their consent, handily partnered with someone who takes pleasure in receiving pain. Amanda has determined that getting paid to have sex with someone you wouldn’t otherwise sleep with is “pain.” I think that buys into “sacred vagina” thinking. It isn’t necessarily physically painful sex. And emotionally I’d think it would be quite empty and boring. Amanda’s sadist line makes me think of nothing more than my dad explaining to me when I was 16 that if I had premarital sex I’d lose a part of my soul. That even if I agreed to it and loved it, that there would be something irretrievable taken from me. I guess there is a sense in which a man could have this attitude about women and think of himself as taking a part of a woman’s soul. But it’s not sadism if the woman doesn’t buy into it, and hence feels no pain.

Does that make more sense?

Comment #97: vladimir  on  04/21  at  04:02 PM

Yeah, I guess.

My problem now is that I think you’re trying to split hairs too finely and winding up chopping them….

I don’t really think there is a difference between the two types of sadism you’re descripting…

Comment #98: shah8  on  04/21  at  04:06 PM

“If MiddleageLiberal agrees with you, it’s time to reconsider your POV. “

*lol*  Or at least admit to fauxgressivism.

I always struggle with this topic.  The knee-jerk reactionary in me is immediately put off by the mere thought of prostitution.  The progressive in me wants to see and understand both sides.  Thanks, Amanda, for putting into words that which i struggle to verbalize.

Comment #99: Gypsy Lee  on  04/21  at  04:12 PM

vladimir, sadism is part of prostitution due to the reality of what most prostitution actually is; a place where consent is not an issue because nobody cares if the woman wants to fuck the john or not.  Prostitution is almost never a contract between equals with fully informed consent on both sides, it is coercion of one form or another.  (And it strikes me that pimps share a number of traits with abusive spouses, such as complete control of all financial matters.)

Besides, even if the act of buying and selling sex were done on a completely fair and level field, it still wouldn’t be okay to suddenly, mid-transaction, choke the woman you’re fucking because that’s what you need to get off, and you didn’t mention it up front because you figured she’d say no or charge more or otherwise implement guards for her own safety.

Sadists are not only unattractive people in leather gimp suits.  Many of them look entirely respectable.

Comment #100: kaninchen  on  04/21  at  04:13 PM

but I think her use of the term “sadist” is distracting me.

I don’t know if Spitzer is a sadist, but he is demonstrably aggressive. Allegedly, that extends to his sexual kinks. And honestly, had he not made his reputation busting prostitution rings like the one he later patronised, I’d be rooting for his return right now. I sometimes wonder what would have happened with AIG if Spitzer, rather than Patterson, had been in office back in September.

A lot of it is a control issue. My armchair psychology theory is that many politicians, whatever their party or ideology, get into the game because they have some personal and societally unacceptable demon that they can’t control despite all their smarts and hard work—their solution is to compensate and divert by exerting control over other people (for good or ill).

Comment #101: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  04:14 PM

Yeah, works for me.  I’m not sure how you can have hung around this long, presumably read Amanda’s multiple posts on Nice Guys, and not understand that there’s an immense amount of hostility directed at women who have the gall to choose the partners we want rather than gratefully accepting anyone who will have us.

Not everybody I’ve liked in my life has liked me back.  This was no fun, and it made me sad, but I don’t consider it some kind of oppression, an offensive upholding of the social conservative status quo, or an arbitrary hoop to jump through.  I get that you didn’t literally say refusing to fuck someone is like bullying or legal injustice, but the fact is you associated the concepts speak volumes. 

I do defend people’s right to choose the friends and partners they want.  Unlike bullying, legal injustice, and itchy rashes, this is a valuable thing, even if it makes some people sad or angry.  Your apparent inability to understand women’s right to choose partners as anything but an irritating cramp in men’s style makes me agree that we have nothing to say to each other.

killjoy, I think I love you.  I find that many men’s defenses of prostitution are steeped in male privilege and entitlement mentality and Nice Guy(tm) douchebaggery.

Comment #102: DonnaDiva  on  04/21  at  04:16 PM

She’s a professional with an honestly stated need (usually for money) and deserves to be treated with a certain degree of respect. The difference between your views is illustrated by a john who springs his desire for rough, scary sex on a prostitute in the middle of things (because he’s purchased an object/prop for X hours), versus a john who makes his expectations clear in advance (because he’s engaged another human being in sexual services for X hours).

In her original post, Amanda is getting at deeper issues as to why the first case defines prostitution in America more often than the second one does—issues that have a lot to do with patriarchy and misogyny.


I think, perhaps, the problem is that I’m too “vanilla”.  I was imagining a scenario in which you act out a fairly normal sexual encounter.  I was not imagining a scenario in which you considered that you were free to treat another human being however you wanted for an hour. 

On a ski trip in Nevada, once, me and some buddies stopped in at a brothel.  The setup was that we sat around drinking beers, and if there was a woman you were interested in you just casually indicated to her that this was the case, and she took you back to a room where you discussed what you wanted and how much it would cost.  If you could come to terms, you did the act.  If you couldn’t come to terms – no sweat.  Just come back out and continue enjoying your drink, and select another woman to have the same conversation with, if that’s what you wanted.

None of us actually had sex.  Only one guy was seriously considering it, and he didn’t have the money for it anyway.  But from that experience, my expectation of what an encounter would be like doesn’t include anything freaky or weird.

Comment #103: Wallace  on  04/21  at  04:17 PM

A pet peeve of mine is how people act like men are just ‘naturally’ more horny than women, so horny that they can’t control it, and MUST, YES, MUST go and act out their sexual fantasies at any cost. *annoyed by comments on the article*

Isn’t it <strike>ironic</strike> hypocritical that these men who can’t control their natural horny also claim to be the calm, rational ones while saying that women are ruled by their emotions?  But I guess horniness is rational so it’s ok to be controlled by it (unless you’re a woman).

Comment #104: bananacat  on  04/21  at  04:21 PM

To be completely frank, seeker, you have indicated in the past your annoyance and frustration with women who are not currently fucking you.  It’s not your tone; it’s your obvious resentment of the bitches who deny you sex.

That is pure and simple a goddamned lie, period, and you ought to be ashamed of it.  I got divorced years ago and deliberately stepped out of the dating and sex arena for years and years; I even openly mocked my own lack of a social life on this very blog.  I couldn’t and didn’t complain about not getting something that I resolutely refused to look for.  So much for the personal angle.  Note also that I’m pedantic to the point of anal and irritating about distinguishing between my own personal experiences and those gained through my practice, to the point where I’ve been taken to task (“we get it, we get it”  sort of comments) for it.

At the general angle, there is little or nothing in my own viewpoints regarding women or men who withdraw sex from their partners or refuse it to others which is different from Amanda’s.  Indeed if you go back to those posts you find that our arguments often run in tandem and are mutually supporting, often against some pretty spirited opposition in the “ending sex within relationships” threads.

Go back and find quotes where I’m angry at women for not fucking me.  They don’t exist, so have a nice time.  You’ve either confused me with somebody else, which is hacktacular in the extreme, or you’re just plain old lying.  Which is it?

Comment #105: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  04:24 PM

I think, perhaps, the problem is that I’m too “vanilla”.  I was imagining a scenario in which you act out a fairly normal sexual encounter.  I was not imagining a scenario in which you considered that you were free to treat another human being however you wanted for an hour.

The point is (in seeker’s scenario), a person should not consider himself free to do that, whether the act is vanilla or not. I’m sure there are escort agencies specialising in non-vanilla sex which act exactly as you describe. The issue is one of expectations, and it would seem that many johns, vanilla or otherwise, expect that the prostitute exists solely as a prop, with all the rights due to a plastic sex doll.

Comment #106: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  04:25 PM

Seeker is operating in that middle ground, and it’s unfair to say that he’s claiming women shouldn’t have the right to choose their partners. If he has a problem, it’s with how (and sometimes why) many Americans of both genders choose their partners. And I’d agree—those hoops suck, too.

He never defined the hoops, so it’s hard to know what he meant.  I’m very uncomfortable with the “hoop” imagery—typically that connects to a misogynistic image of women as sexual gatekeepers, guardians of the pussy, who blackmail and wheedle and manipulate men to give them marriage (or commitment, or gifts, or whatever) in exchange.  The implication is that the woman who doesn’t say yes to sex right away is ready and interested in sex from the beginning but decides to see what she can get for it, that sex is a commodity that all women sell to men for one thing or another, and that this is offensive when what women SHOULD be doing is giving it away, and that would be “freedom”. 

And I get that people often have fucked up ideas about what sex means and what rules must apply to everyone in all relationships and whatever.  Honestly, though, if an individual person doesn’t want to have sex before marriage, or before X weeks of dating, or before spending a few hours together nursing a glass of wine, or at all, that is his or her absolute right and it deserves a certain basic level of respect.  I am not seeing any evidence of such respect from seeker.

Comment #107: killjoy  on  04/21  at  04:25 PM

Wallace, you may mean well, and I sincerely hope you do, but seriously, your posts in this thread creep me right the fuck out.

Comment #108: kaninchen  on  04/21  at  04:28 PM

You do realize what this statement says about you?

It says, for a start that I have a worldview that is capable of absorbing that there are countless different ways for people to get together and have sex and I don’t want anybody’s way of doing it to be illegal unless it involves lack of consent, children or animals or public disturbance.  It says that if two people want to have a commercial transaction for sex that doesn’t involve the hoops of romance or commitment then I don’t want to get in their way even though that’s not the way I live my life.  Call me crazy but some people want things that you and I don’t want and I don’t think that they should be in jail.  Yeah, it says something about me: that I don’t think that my own preferences, or yours or Rev. Whatever’s should have the force of criminal law or should suffer boundless opprobrium. 

It also says that you can’t between an argument made from a personal motive and one made from a societal standpoint.  I advocate for legal marijuana, and I can’t stand the stuff.  Your argument on the prostitution issue is exactly of a kind with the people who say that the only reason for advocating legal marijuana is that one wants to be stoned all the time.

Comment #109: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  04:31 PM

While I think that prostitution should be legal for a variety of reasons, I think that the theory of prostitution is very different from the reality of it.

One thing I don’t like about the current practice of prostitution is that it reinforces the stereotype that women don’t like sex, that sex is about men, and that sex is something men have to “get” from women.  It’s like it doesn’t really matter if the woman enjoys it because she’s getting money out of it.  It’s very easy for this attitude to translate into areas that aren’t as straight-forward as prostitution, such as housewives, or even when a man buys jewelry or even a drink for a woman.  No, this isn’t a slippery-slope fallacy as this actually has a history of happening.  It’s not caused by prostitution, but all of these things are caused by the social attitude of sex.  The man feels like he his done his part (jumped through the correct hoops) and now it’s time for the woman to do her part of having sex.  If a woman doesn’t require a gift, then the men thinks he got “lucky” because it’s inconceivable to him that a woman chose to have sex with him for her own enjoyment.  The reason some men complain about “hoops” is because they fail to consider a woman to be a sexual human.  If they would spend 5 minutes to think about what might actually make sex enjoyable for that woman, that would actually be easier than working a few extra hours to just pay for a prostitute.  But instead, they assume what women want (gifts, love, anything but sexual pleasure) and they are frustrated when these things don’t always result in them having sex.  Some men would rather just pay for sex than have to actually consider his partner’s enjoyment or even admit that she has any.

Comment #110: bananacat  on  04/21  at  04:34 PM

He never defined the hoops, so it’s hard to know what he meant.

Sorry, but he clearly defined the hoops:

”What??? No marriage required?  No attorning to conventional sexual norms?  No hoops to jump through????  No holding one’s sexuality hostage to every single little pricky-shit with a religious, ideological or economic agenda?  Unforgivable!!!!”

If you’re uncomfortable with the “hoop” imagery, you’ve stated it a little too late in the game. In fact, seeker was deliberately non-specific about gender, because he seems to understand that men make women jump through hoops (or “pass tests”, or whatever) just as often as vice-versa.

Honestly, though, if an individual person doesn’t want to have sex before marriage, or before X weeks of dating, or before spending a few hours together nursing a glass of wine, or at all, that is his or her absolute right and it deserves a certain basic level of respect.

Agreed, but seeker didn’t imply anything to the contrary. He’s just saying that societal norms are screwed up, and tend to make us a sexually frustrated and unhappy people.

Comment #111: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  04:36 PM

It says that if two people want to have a commercial transaction for sex that doesn’t involve the hoops of romance or commitment

Exactly.  Seeker can not imagine a woman willingly having sex without romance, commitment, or money.  I don’t want to get personal, but maybe men who think this way just need to bathe more often and learn some good techniques or simply just care about your partner’s enjoyment of sex and be less selfish in bed.  Then women might actually want to do it with you and wouldn’t need to go through the hoops of commitment, romance, or paying for it.  By the way, I think that prostitution should be legal, and I hate the way prostitutes are shamed more than the johns who go to them.

Comment #112: bananacat  on  04/21  at  04:40 PM

As I’ve mentioned, I was stripper for about two years, and although there are plenty that do not consider what I did to be any different from prostitution, it does if nothing else beg the question of what is “okay” to do sexually for money, and what is not - either personally or as considered by the law, your friends, your family, your lover. For me, although burlesque and stage work were the primary attractors, they’re not as profitable. Almost all the places I worked allowed some physical contact with the dancers, to varying degrees, which some consider the threshold for prostitution. Grinding up against a stranger in a sexually stimulating way for money? It is pretty similar. So anyway, why do it? For money. I hated my job as a cashier, wanted to pay for college, and heard it was good money if you didn’t mind the work. So I did the work. It wasn’t great, I hold no ideals that if I or most of the women I worked with could have made similar money in most other jobs we would have still chosen that one. Maybe burlesque, because it doesn’t have the same dynamic. I can see where most (I’d say even the vast majority of) prostitution is not a situation where women have any power over their clientele and they don’t see a way out. But then, the opinion that women (and men?) would never, ever do such an intimate act for money without being damaged themselves or being in a horrendous situation also strikes me as false. It takes a different mindset about sex, I did think of it as an act we were both (as in, customer and I) participating in - I act, he enjoys the feeling, money is exchanged and we both go home. I think there is a dynamic aside from “I enjoy it because she must be hating it” - I’m more than sure there are some with that mindset, but I don’t think all.

Comment #113: Tenya  on  04/21  at  04:40 PM

Blackbloc:
USually?  Usually???????

Kidding aside, thanks for implicitly noting that there’s a difference between a philosophical/legal viewpoint on market freedom on the one hand and personal misogyny on the other.

Comment #114: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  04:41 PM

Go back and find quotes where I’m angry at women for not fucking me.

I’ll do my best, but just to paraphrase, you were pretty obviously resentful of your ex-wife’s refusal to have sex with you and put very heavy blame on women who lose desire in marriage.  Did she make you jump through too many hoops?

Comment #115: keshmeshi  on  04/21  at  04:43 PM

Seeker is operating in that middle ground, and it’s unfair to say that he’s claiming women shouldn’t have the right to choose their partners. If he has a problem, it’s with how (and sometimes why) many Americans of both genders choose their partners. And I’d agree—those hoops suck, too.

Words can’t convey, Gracchus, how grateful I am for you making this accurate point.  Thank you.

Comment #116: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  04:44 PM

IF I get vladimir correctly and if I may paraphrase, he is saying this: that Spitzer went after Wall Street criminals with the same vicious glee that all other prosecutors bring to going after “ordinary” accused criminals; they always get treated like shit and Spitzer merely moved the treatment up the food chain.

Comment #117: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  04:47 PM

keshmeshi, this is where you are wrong or lying.  I have never made a negative comment about my ex-wife on this blog.  I’ve made many positive comments, but never complained about her; I’ve been punctilious to the point of mania about that.  So you’re either mistaking me for somebody else, or a lying twerp.  Again, which is it?

Comment #118: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  04:48 PM

he reason some men complain about “hoops” is because they fail to consider a woman to be a sexual human.  If they would spend 5 minutes to think about what might actually make sex enjoyable for that woman, that would actually be easier than working a few extra hours to just pay for a prostitute.

Well, maybe.  Honestly, leaving aside the perspective of the sex workers for the moment, which varies anyway, I can understand why someone would just want to hire a sex worker—it’s straightforward, it doesn’t take long to set up, you’re pretty much guaranteed to get what you want.  If you’re not interested in anything else, just someone helping you get off, it’s much faster and more efficient than dating or trying to hook up in clubs, for sure.  Likewise, it’s easier for me to go to a restaurant than to get someone to invite me over to their house for dinner, and taxis are more consistently available than friends who are willing to drive me where I need to go.  Impersonal commercial transactions are like that.

Otherwise, though, I agree. The imagery of “hoops” is really offensive, I think that’s what I’ve been reacting to—I think “jumping through hoops” is a circus reference.  The animal (usually a large predator) is trained to jump through hoops and entertain people to get treats.  There’s no inherent connection between the hoops and the treats, the animal is considered degraded by this, it’s unnatural (in the wild it wouldn’t have to please anyone with entertaining tricks, it’d just take the food), there’s no way the animal would do this stuff if the treat wasn’t involved.  It’s a really offensive metaphor on many levels; presumably the “animal” is the man and the “meat” in the metaphor is sex/access to pussy, and the “hoops” are basically any interaction a man and a woman might have before getting down to sex, because really the man just wants the pussy, right away, nothing else, very simple.

Comment #119: killjoy  on  04/21  at  04:52 PM

Seeker can not imagine a woman willingly having sex without romance, commitment, or money.

On what statement do you base this startlingly untrue statement?  I said that people should be free, if they want, to choose who and how they have sex with based on how they want to do it, period.  Their sexuality shouldn’t be proscribed by law or confining sexual mores.  How on earth does that translate to what you wrote?

Comment #120: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  04:57 PM

I don’t want to get personal, but maybe men who think this way just need to bathe more often and learn some good techniques or simply just care about your partner’s enjoyment of sex and be less selfish in bed.  Then women might actually want to do it with you and wouldn’t need to go through the hoops of commitment, romance, or paying for it.

I don’t think so, honestly.  I don’t have NSA sex, ever.  For my own personality and my own emotional well-being, it just doesn’t work.  Other women are different, but even so, NSA sex isn’t consistently available to everyone, I acknowledge that.

Sorry, but he clearly defined the hoops

I don’t consider the passage you quoted clear.  Other than marriage, he didn’t specify much.

I apologize for not clarifying exactly why I find the language of “hoops” offensive before, but I hardly think I’m OMG NOT ALLOWED to mention it at this point.

Comment #121: killjoy  on  04/21  at  04:59 PM

it’s straightforward, it doesn’t take long to set up, you’re pretty much guaranteed to get what you want.  If you’re not interested in anything else, just someone helping you get off, it’s much faster and more efficient than dating or trying to hook up in clubs, for sure.

Again, there’s the assumption that men have to date a girl or go through some club ritual to get sex.  If you would just take a few minutes to find out how to please a woman in bed, then you could find one that doesn’t require dating or rituals, and it would actually take less time than using a prostitute because you have to work a few hours to earn the money to pay the prostitute.

Comment #122: bananacat  on  04/21  at  04:59 PM

I don’t really think there is a difference between the two types of sadism you’re descripting…

I think consent is a pretty substantial difference.

a place where consent is not an issue because nobody cares if the woman wants to fuck the john or not.  Prostitution is almost never a contract between equals with fully informed consent on both sides, it is coercion of one form or another.

Kaninchen,

I feel like we’re heading into dangerous territory here. I don’t see how “consent not an issue” can be reconciled with prostitutes having agency without all prostitution being rape. In which case, anyway, all johns are rapists, not sadists.

As for contracts between equals, I don’t want to go all Marxist on you but very few contracts are negotiated at arms-length between equals. And coercion is a strong word. Yes, many prostitutes are facing physical threats.  And we all know that it’s easier to control women who are constantly told they’re worthless. But that isn’t exclusive to prostitution. And I seriously doubt the Ashley Dupree’s of the world could be fairly described as coerced. Maybe fucked in the head at an early age that made them more likely to go along with the deal, but that’s not the same thing as being coerced.

I was quite serious about the lack of professionalism in setting boundaries on the session. Of course lying about what you want to get a cheaper price, or surprising the prostitute with a choking maneuver is not acceptable. But from the story, as told by the woman, it was not clear to me that she was justifiably surprised by his actions. And having expressed her disagreement, he stopped. We don’t know that he lied, or didn’t tell the madame in more detail what he wanted. Amanda could be right in her read. I’m just saying I consider it equally plausible that it was a failure of communication, not a desire to inspire real fear for the purposes of sexual gratification.

Sadists are not only unattractive people in leather gimp suits.  Many of them look entirely respectable.

I’m not sure what I’ve written that has given you the impression that I’m in need of this clarification. But it has amused me.

I don’t know if Spitzer is a sadist, but he is demonstrably aggressive. Allegedly, that extends to his sexual kinks.

Gracchus,

This is what I was getting at referring to his legal career. Honestly, I was kind of surprised he wasn’t revealed as a masochist since that seems to be the cliche kink of powerful men.

Comment #123: vladimir  on  04/21  at  05:04 PM

Gracchus:

Sorry, but he clearly defined the hoops:

Seeker did no such thing. Except marriage, all he listed were strawmen and vague negative generalizations that nobody is openly in favor of:

”What??? No marriage required?  No attorning to conventional sexual norms?  No hoops to jump through????  No holding one’s sexuality hostage to every single little pricky-shit with a religious, ideological or economic agenda?  Unforgivable!!!!”

What “conventional sexual norms”? What “hoops”? What exactly is “holding one’s sexuality hostage” ? None of this is remotely clear.

Killjoy is exactly right: this is the kind of language that male leftists have used all the damn time, to shame women who don’t have sex with them on command. This is the kind of language that helped spark the feminist movement, in fact. Female leftists got very sick of being talked of as making men jump through “hoops” because they wouldn’t be happy sexual servants.

Comment #124: LR  on  04/21  at  05:04 PM

I have a problem with the “all johns are sadists” meme. I can only speak from other people’s experience and I’ll share them because I think they point to other viewpoints:

I have a friend who is a pro—and she gets all types. Mostly the under-sexed married guys happy to have some intimacy (and all their baggage and hang-ups, I don’t mean to make them sound like happy go-lucky smurfs.) From what she’s told me and what I’ve read on her blog she hasn’t had any really violent jerks, mostly guys with hygiene issues. Her tone is more often pity than fear or anger. Maybe she hides that aspect from the people she lets know about her lifestyle. I do worry.
Anyway, she gets a number of disfigured men. Burned/skin-grafted faces, stroke victims with partial paralysis whose wives can’t bear it, or are widowed/divorced and have no chance. They know they’re paying for someone to pretend to want them. None of them need to be told they’re beautiful, or they’re horse-cocked studs in bed. They just want to have some intimacy with someone not going to cringe, and at least pretend they desire intimacy with them.
Now she’s not Mother Theresa. She gets grossed out and is only doing it for the money. She would not fuck these guys for free. She puts on a good enough act and that seems to be “enough” for them. Now to her—her blog is filled with self-loathing and she never feels like she deserves anything good in life. Knowing her for as long as I have it mostly comes from her guilt at not feeling dirty from her job. She’s disgusted by her non-disgust with fucking people for money. When she enjoys the sex it gets worse. Other than buying her Planned Parenthood trips for Xmas I stay out of any judgment of her actions. Is that wrong? Should I do more?

Comment #125: dooflow  on  04/21  at  05:05 PM

He’s just saying that societal norms are screwed up, and tend to make us a sexually frustrated and unhappy people.

Seeker keeps conflating law and social mores in a way I don’t think is tenable, or occasionally pretending he was speaking about only law (“all I said was prostitution shouldn’t be illegal”) when he clearly wasn’t.

People do all sorts of mean, nasty things that are and should be legal.  This doesn’t mean that no one should say anything when people are mean and nasty.  Even leaving aside the hypocrisy, I find what Eliot Spitzer did distasteful; it certainly appears that he was cruel and dishonest with his wife.  I don’t think it should be legally punished, but that sure as shit doesn’t mean I have to approve.

Comment #126: killjoy  on  04/21  at  05:07 PM

If MiddleageLiberal agrees with you, it’s time to reconsider your POV.

. . .The profit motive/economic necessity is itself a denial of consent.

Another example of your having little to worry about my agreeing with you a lot.

I am not particularly squeamish, but I would guess that I would find your vision of a workable society without profit motive or bosses pretty gruesome.

Comment #127: MiddleageLiberal  on  04/21  at  05:07 PM

Vladimir: the point about consent is that yes, it’s an issue, but even if your partner is consenting, it says something fucked up about you if you have to convince yourself that she’s not. The point is that there are some sadists that enjoy inflicting pain consensually. And then there are other sadists who may have consensual partners but would actually really like to actually rape someone, and would get turned on by doing so, but are fearful of breaking that taboo. Prostitution is a convenient outlet for the latter group: they know perfectly well that the prostitute doesn’t want to do what she’s doing, that she’s under pressure and doing it for the money, and they get off on that, but they don’t have to use violence.

Comment #128: LR  on  04/21  at  05:08 PM

killjoy, not all women have to like NSA sex.  But there are enough of us that do that it would be available to more men if they just cared about women enjoying sex.  And if we could get past this idea of women not liking sex, then there would be even more available.  It has been my experience that the men who are part of hook-up culture and know what women like in bed rarely go to prostitutes or even strip clubs.  The “visitors” that are somewhat surprised when I actually want to see them naked tend to be the ones who are more likely to pay for it.

Comment #129: bananacat  on  04/21  at  05:12 PM

part 2:

My mom was kind of interested in a guy who before it went anywhere admitted he used prostitutes. I guess he was pretty upfront when they were sharing get to know you tales. Here’s why: He’s sixty something now. In his early 20s he got prostate cancer. They took everything out. He’s had a bag since he was 25. According to him it was always a deal breaker. If he was up front about it the date would never happen. If he hid it until later in the relationship (he says he would always warn a woman before it got too intimate—it was too hard to hide and it was a part of him) the relationship would get chilly mighty quick. Eventually setting up “Girlfriend experience” appointments with prostitutes became the norm. He wasn’t into having it eroticized he just didn’t want it to be between him and intimacy. It was no longer a burden because it was accepted.

My mom was weirded because her read on the guy was that he was a nice guy, he was clean, had a good job, liked to read and was a really funny companion. My mother is ever so practical so she could see where he was coming from and wasn’t too concerned about the prostitutes and she felt bad for him. At the same time she couldn’t let go of the bag. While she’s talking about what a great guy he is and no one notices because of the bag she’s slowly walking out the door because of the bag.

Now—my mother has dated some doozies and this is his tale told through her filter—so grain of salt. Isn’t there a point where even false intimacy is necessary if you’re not finding any true intimacy. How long are you supposed to wait for the meeting of equal minds before something gives?

Comment #130: dooflow  on  04/21  at  05:15 PM

keshmeshi, this is where you are wrong or lying.  I have never made a negative comment about my ex-wife on this blog.  I’ve made many positive comments, but never complained about her; I’ve been punctilious to the point of mania about that.  So you’re either mistaking me for somebody else, or a lying twerp.  Again, which is it?

You made it clear that you resent her.  It was in a post about women not wanting sex in marriage.  You got extremely pissed off at the suggestion that men in these relationships should have to do ANYTHING to re-ignite their wives’ desire.  Maybe you didn’t mention your ex specifically, but it was obvious that you resented her for not fucking you, or maybe rather for making you “jump through hoops” and not letting you use her like a hole in your mattress.

Comment #131: keshmeshi  on  04/21  at  05:16 PM

think there is a dynamic aside from “I enjoy it because she must be hating it” - I’m more than sure there are some with that mindset, but I don’t think all.

I think that Tenya puts a finger on a significant problem right there.  It’s a key part of a lot of the misogynist programming inherent in conservative religious faiths, the integration into the subconscious of both genders of a debilitating falsehood: that women don’t enjoy sex.  If they don’t enjoy it then it must be obtained rather than given, through bribery, through blackmail, through force or, their only permissible option, through conventional marriage which, for those women is just blackmail/bribery wrapped up with a nice big white gown and a lot of frozen smiles.  Many men turn into misogynist creeps totally clued out about female sexuality because they’ve been carefully programmed to believe two totally screwed up things at the same time: that there is no such thing as independent, worthy female sexuality.  To use continue with killjoy’s lion tamer metaphor: it is deliberately set up so that the man is always the captured lion, the woman is the living, breathing treat to be given away without agency of her own, and the societal/religious norms always have the whip hand.  Where killjoy errs profoundly is in her misreading of where I stand; she assumes that since I hate the hoop I must think that the woman is holding it; I don’t, because I see her as every bit as much a prisoner as the lion.  I don’t vote for or against the lion or the treat; I say shoot the lion tamer and burn the whip and the hoops.

It’s where we come back to a point that Amanda has hammered on constantly here and that nearly all posters here are in agreement with: that the oppressive cultural norms which bind people in cannot survive independent sexuality and are most threatened of all by independent female sexuality.  The shame and punishment cultures will collapse into dust if that liberation is achieved.  Why do you think that they fight back so hard?  It’s one of the reasons that they fight gay marriage so viciously: because if men are free to marry who they want, including each other, and if women are free to marry without a man being involved at all, then… horrors! ... straight women and straight men will be allowed to do what they want, too!  It’s a matter of survival for them, they know it and that’s why they feel justified in doing whatever is necessary to stop it.

Comment #132: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  05:17 PM

seeker,

Your paraphrase is close. First, I’m a woman (normally I have gender neutral handles, I think I was drunk and excited to join a BSG thread when I came up with vladimir, not sure why). You’ve got the vicious glee part right. But no prosecutor has the power to steamroll Wall St. the way they do it to “ordinary” criminals. That Spitzer worked to bridge the gap between the common man and the powerful was pretty damn cool. A happy medium would probably be most appropriate.

Comment #133: vladimir  on  04/21  at  05:21 PM

“I find that many men’s defenses of prostitution are steeped in male privilege and entitlement mentality and Nice Guy(tm) douchebaggery. “

And in this way such discussion start to look like discussions about abortion or rape.  The one thing that seems to repeat itself when males enter into these conversations is “whatever benefits me is correct”. It may be couched in faux-feminist language, but it always seems to revert back to this.

Comment #134: Gypsy Lee  on  04/21  at  05:23 PM

If they would spend 5 minutes to think about what might actually make sex enjoyable for that woman, that would actually be easier than working a few extra hours to just pay for a prostitute.

That’s not quite accurate. The johns are working those extra few hours to avoid the lead-up to sex, not for the sex itself. I’m sure a lot of them do think about making things enjoyable for a woman in bed—they just can’t be arsed to put in the groundwork (bogus “hoops” or otherwise) to get there.

Even as someone who’s not interested in having a wife or steady girlfriend, I like the non-bogus groundwork too much to find prostitutes (or even nudie bars) appealing. But I can understand how someone who doesn’t like it (or can’t) might consider going to one an option—especially since societal norms frown on respectful NSA and FWB arrangements.

Comment #135: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  05:27 PM

keshmeshi at 4:16PM I call bullshit and stronger words.  What you’re doing is saying I said something that I never said without troubling your lying ass to actually provide a link which doesn’t exist.  You’re hoping that your deceit (or grossly flawed memory) will be enough to have people in this thread think that I said that in another thread.  Either prove it or fuck off and lie about somebody else.

And, on the topic, Amanda has frequently noted her frustration and unhappiness and the shitty feelings that come in a flood when her bf refused sex.  Are her frustrations invalid, or do they only attach to me?

“Maybe you didn’t mention your ex specifically…”

After saying that they mentioned my ex specifically.  Wonderful.  You accuse me of gross slander of my ex-wife and saying horrible things about our marriage ... then you say it wasn’t about her specifically.  Wonder-fucking-ful.

See, here’s where I have an advantage that you don’t.  I know for a stone-cold fact that I’ve never said the horrible things that you say I did.  You can search this blog until the cows come home and you will NOT find such misogynist rantings coming from me.

Comment #136: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  05:27 PM

What “conventional sexual norms”?

Seeker can correct me, but I read it as the preliminary requirements for dating/courting, exclusivity, monogamous intent, what have you. Those are the messages promulgated everywhere, even from “liberal” Hollywood.

What “hoops”?

Meeting societal criteria for engaging in those sexual norms with a given person. “Is this man/woman worthy?” due to passing certain tests. Again, this is applied to both genders.

What exactly is “holding one’s sexuality hostage” ?

Basically, that one’s sexual expression unless Jeebus/Andrea Dworkin/the Invisible Hand of the Market says it’s appropriate.

[combining with killjoy’s post]

Seeker keeps conflating law and social mores in a way I don’t think is tenable,

if he conflates them, it’s because law often services those narrow social mores—the criminalisation of prostitution is a case in point. Those laws aren’t there to protect the prostitutes or the johns—they’re in place to punish them.

People do all sorts of mean, nasty things that are and should be legal.  This doesn’t mean that no one should say anything when people are mean and nasty.

Agreed. I don’t see Seeker praising Spitzer’s behaviour in using prostitutes—at worst he’s neutral on the matter. Putting aside the political hypocrisy, that’s basically my stance, too.

Even leaving aside the hypocrisy, I find what Eliot Spitzer did distasteful; it certainly appears that he was cruel and dishonest with his wife.  I don’t think it should be legally punished, but that sure as shit doesn’t mean I have to approve.

I find it superficially gross, and I’m not down with deceptive behaviour in general, either. But I don’t know the details, so I’m not going to jump to condemn him (or other johns), either.

Comment #137: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  05:31 PM

“societal norms frown on respectful NSA and FWB arrangements”

Because they both involve people choosing their own paths.  Verboten, dontcha know.

FWB is especially fraught.  Even people who are otherwise sexually or romantically liberal and liberated often have a helluva time getting their mind around that one.

Comment #138: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  05:31 PM

But Gracchus, your interpretations are still pretty vague, and you assume a lot that Seeker never said. You assume that “hoops” mean externally-imposed criteria. Why? People often use “hoops” to refer to a woman’s personal criteria (which will in any case be shaped by society). My point was that he wasn’t clear, and so killjoy was not off-base in reading it the way she did: as a slur against women having substantive standards for who they sleep with.

Comment #139: LR  on  04/21  at  05:41 PM

Gracchus at 4:31PM: A fair summary, thank you.  It can all be wrapped up in one summary: what others and/or the society around you expect, demand and/or enforce, despite what the two (or more) individuals freely choose themselves.

Comment #140: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  05:41 PM

if he conflates them, it’s because law often services those narrow social mores—the criminalisation of prostitution is a case in point. Those laws aren’t there to protect the prostitutes or the johns—they’re in place to punish them.

Which doesn’t excuse conflating them. When it comes to sexual behavior, laws are generally undesirable for consensual interactions, but there’s a lot of room for using social mores to encourage better behavior. And it’s inaccurate to respond to someone advocating a norm as if they’re advocating for a law.

Comment #141: LR  on  04/21  at  05:44 PM

That’s not quite accurate. The johns are working those extra few hours to avoid the lead-up to sex, not for the sex itself. I’m sure a lot of them do think about making things enjoyable for a woman in bed—they just can’t be arsed to put in the groundwork (bogus “hoops” or otherwise) to get there.

Again, you are assuming that even with NSA sex that there absolutely must be “lead-up” to sex.  While I think that foreplay can be enjoyable for both men and women, you still have the assumption that you have to go through some sort of ritual to get what you want out of sex, even if you personally enjoy that ritual, and that it’s not possible for a woman to want to sex the way a man does.

Comment #142: bananacat  on  04/21  at  05:44 PM

Because they both involve people choosing their own paths.  Verboten, dontcha know.

Same with marital “arrangements” (i.e. the non-deceptive kind) and polyamory.

FWB is especially fraught.  Even people who are otherwise sexually or romantically liberal and liberated often have a helluva time getting their mind around that one.

That’s my territory these days, and you aren’t kidding. It’s usually a constant balancing act between the FWBs as well, because we’ve all been programmed since childhood that if you really like the person, and you’re having good and satisfying sex, then by goodness gracious it’s only natural to be committed/exclusive/living together/married.

Comment #143: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  05:46 PM

“But Gracchus, your interpretations are still pretty vague, and you assume a lot that Seeker never said. “

Yet somehow he got it right.  Funny that.  Do you think it might be because his/her mind wasn’t clouded by pounding out posts determined to put words in my mouth that I didn’t say?  killjoy got it wrong because (s)he started with the assumption that I was a sexist creep and then drew all her conclusions from there, even if she had to pluck them out of the air.  Gracchus got it right because (s)he actually read what I said.

Comment #144: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  05:46 PM

But Gracchus, your interpretations are still pretty vague, and you assume a lot that Seeker never said.

I’m informed by his comments I’ve read in other threads, where I’ve seen a lot of social libertarianism and no misogyny that I can recall.

Comment #145: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  05:46 PM

if he conflates them, it’s because law often services those narrow social mores—the criminalisation of prostitution is a case in point. Those laws aren’t there to protect the prostitutes or the johns—they’re in place to punish them.

And I still don’t think that conflation is tenable.  There’s a big difference between criticizing something and criminalizing it.  Telling people not to criticize is a waste of time, IMO.  You don’t have to argue that something is totally fine and unproblematic and never causes anybody any suffering to argue that the criminal law should leave it alone.

The lion tamer metaphor (which is seeker’s, not mine) continues to be a festival of fail.  Conceptualizing consensual, respectful sex in terms of an animal eating a piece of meat is a non-starter, even if you couch it in the ever! so! revolutionary! language of the anti-state left.

Comment #146: killjoy  on  04/21  at  05:50 PM

Again, you are assuming that even with NSA sex that there absolutely must be “lead-up” to sex.

I’m not making that assumption about NSA sex, I’m saying that the johns make that assumption.

While I think that foreplay can be enjoyable for both men and women, you still have the assumption that you have to go through some sort of ritual to get what you want out of sex, even if you personally enjoy that ritual, and that it’s not possible for a woman to want to sex the way a man does.

I think you’re misreading me. I mean, these days I do personally enjoy a little ritual and romance (when it’s fun and no-one’s taking it seriously), but I’ve been in enough mutually satisfying one-night-stands with women (some of whom initiated) to understand that it’s not a requirement on either side.

Again, I was talking about the sort of john who, while he may enjoy pleasing a woman, doesn’t understand that NSA or similar arrangements are acceptable options (mainly due to societal norms).

Comment #147: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  05:54 PM

It says, for a start that I have a worldview that is capable of absorbing that there are countless different ways for people to get together and have sex and I don’t want anybody’s way of doing it to be illegal unless it involves lack of consent, children or animals or public disturbance.  It says that if two people want to have a commercial transaction for sex that doesn’t involve the hoops of romance or commitment then I don’t want to get in their way even though that’s not the way I live my life.  Call me crazy but some people want things that you and I don’t want and I don’t think that they should be in jail.  Yeah, it says something about me: that I don’t think that my own preferences, or yours or Rev. Whatever’s should have the force of criminal law or should suffer boundless opprobrium.

seeker, no one here is making the argument that any consensual sex acts should be criminalized.  I’m firmly in the camp of decriminalizing prostitution and stop shaming the women (and men) who do it.  At the same time I can look at a man like Elliot Spitzer and condemn him for being a woman-hating hypocritical scumbag. 

I find it interesting that you conflate any scrutiny or criticism of your precious ‘linear sex’ with a desire to criminally punish it while at the same time feeling free to mock and disparage other processes,  i.e., “hoops”.  Hey, if I want to make a partner literally jump through hoops in order to fuck me, and he’s amenable to it, what’s it to you?

Comment #148: DonnaDiva  on  04/21  at  05:55 PM

I’m not making that assumption about NSA sex, I’m saying that the johns make that assumption.

Exactly my point.  We end with a lot of johns because they buy into these assumptions that sex is not mutually enjoyable for men and women.  This is partly based on our societal view of sex as something that men get from women.  If we could change this view, we wouldn’t need prostitutes as everyone could be happy (OK, maybe that’s a little too idealistic).  But the point is that prostitution is largely based on these false assumptions.

Comment #149: bananacat  on  04/21  at  05:58 PM

It seems that seeker thinks we all want prostitution to remain criminalized.  I personally think it should be legal, and I think many others on this blog agree.  But that doesn’t mean I have to like the way it is currently practiced.  I also hate the double-standard where johns may be looked down upon, but not nearly as much as prostitutes themselves.  Of course, that’s just an exaggeration of the typical double-standard with any sex.

Comment #150: bananacat  on  04/21  at  06:03 PM

And I still don’t think that conflation is tenable.  There’s a big difference between criticizing something and criminalizing it.

Right—the latter has the force of the state behind it, the former doesn’t.

Telling people not to criticize is a waste of time

My critique is more about the societal norms that leave transgressors with little choice but an illegal and (in my opinion) rather distasteful activity.

Conceptualizing consensual, respectful sex in terms of an animal eating a piece of meat is a non-starter

I’m doing quite the opposite. Again, it’s societal norms that insist that sex ought to involve some sort of economic/religious/ideological component (i.e. jumping though hoops, etc.).

even if you couch it in the ever! so! revolutionary! language of the anti-state left.

Well, how else am I supposed to couch it? The anti-state right buys right into the idea of any kind of sex as an economic transaction, and the authoritarian left and right are both happy to poke their noses into bedrooms.

Comment #151: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  06:06 PM

catgirl, I think you’re mistaken.  First, I think there are lots and lots of guys who do not have the game to line up the kind of NSA sexual arrangement you’re talking about.  You’re making it sound like any guy who takes a bath can line something like this up, and that isn’t the case.  And I find the idea that being good in bed has anything to do with it is weird, when showing a woman that you’re good in bed would first require you to get her in bed.  Getting her to bed is the step most guys can’t get past. 

Also, the only guy I know that has been with a prostitute is the most able with women.  He’s a guy that will have a girlfriend, and have two or three things going on the side.  The guys I know who don’t have any luck with women would never be comfortable with the idea of trying to make it with a prostitute.  Which is kind of the Elliot Spitzer paradox.  He could have lined something up through traditional means, if he were inclined to do so.

Comment #152: Wallace  on  04/21  at  06:07 PM

If we could change this view, we wouldn’t need prostitutes as everyone could be happy (OK, maybe that’s a little too idealistic).  But the point is that prostitution is largely based on these false assumptions.

So we’re in agreement there. If we have any difference, it’s that I accept how ingrained those false assumptions are in society, and I try not to judge desperate people who have no other options too harshly as long as they’re not coercing others.

And don’t get me wrong, I’m aware that coercion (both direct and indirect) plays a major part in the sex trade. But I’m also aware that a major part != all.

Comment #153: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  06:11 PM

“Hey, if I want to make a partner literally jump through hoops in order to fuck me, and he’s amenable to it, what’s it to you? “

Nothing, and hooray because that’s exactly my points: individual choice, mutuality, consent rule.  The two of you chose the path.  It’s when others put those hoops in place and oblige you to jump through them that the problem arises.

Comment #154: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  06:14 PM

I want to see Spitzer repay his debt to society by continuing to do what he does best—fighting white collar crime. Society has never needed Spitzer’s considerable talents more than we do now.

Yes, he was weak and sleazy and reckless and hypocritical. But he was also the victim of a bullshit politicized investigation by the feds, likely at the behest of the New York State Republicans. Notice how David Vitter is still in office and Spitzer was forced to resign, not because what he did was objectively worse, but because the specter of criminal charges was hanging over his head. It was blackmail under cover of law.

Comment #155: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  04/21  at  06:16 PM

Anyway, she gets a number of disfigured men. Burned/skin-grafted faces, stroke victims with partial paralysis whose wives can’t bear it, or are widowed/divorced and have no chance. They know they’re paying for someone to pretend to want them. None of them need to be told they’re beautiful, or they’re horse-cocked studs in bed. They just want to have some intimacy with someone not going to cringe, and at least pretend they desire intimacy with them.

Plenty of women are in a similar situation yet there isn’t a massive industry set up to provide them with paid sex partners.  If that’s not the apex of male privilege I don’t know what the fuck is.  Women who are disabled, disfigured, or aged out of the marketplace are pretty much rendered sexless.

Comment #156: DonnaDiva  on  04/21  at  06:18 PM

“Women, who spend much of their lives trying to tease out “just horny” from “woman-hating freakazoid” (which are sadly conflated in our culture)”

This sentence, and my inability to identify it in my own thinking, probably explains a great deal of my hang-ups about sex in my younger years.

Which I’ve seen memorably described as “the “women are alien creatures who give me a stiffy” attitude”...

Comment #157: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  04/21  at  06:19 PM

First, I think there are lots and lots of guys who do not have the game to line up the kind of NSA sexual arrangement you’re talking about.

The main limiting factor isn’t not a question of “game,” it a question of thinking that NSA-style options are societally and culturally unacceptable (or not even knowing they exist). Catgirl is absolutely correct that any guy or girl can do this—once they free themselves from those norms (and the false expectations of others). It’s not easy, but if those norms weren’t in place you’d be surprised how many men and women would choose those options over the current alternatives (prostitution and deception).

“Game,” or whatever you want to call it, is a question of attracting specific people, whether we’re talking about traditional dating or NSA situations.

Comment #158: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  06:19 PM

<blockquote>any guy or girl can do this—once they free themselves from those norms (and the false expectations of others). It’s not easy, but if those norms weren’t in place you’d be surprised how many men and women would choose those options over the current alternatives</blockqoute>

This.

Comment #159: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  06:34 PM

It’s when others put those hoops in place and oblige you to jump through them that the problem arises.

1.  Which ‘others’?  Third parties, or the party you’re trying to persuade to have ‘linear sex’ with you?  In the former case, yeah, tell them to bugger off.  If it’s the latter, too bad so sad, Nice Guy. 

2.  If you really have no problem with something, likening it to road damage, bullies, and itchy rashes is an odd way to convey it.  And hey, it’s your prerogative to have a problem with it but you should frame it honestly instead of couching it in male entitlement bullshit that anyone who reads this or other feminist blogs can smell 20 miles away.

Comment #160: DonnaDiva  on  04/21  at  06:38 PM

re DonnaDiva on sex for disabled individuals:
http://www.tlc-trust.org.uk/about/index.php

Comment #161: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  06:38 PM

I want to see Spitzer repay his debt to society by continuing to do what he does best—fighting white collar crime. Society has never needed Spitzer’s considerable talents more than we do now.

That’s an interesting approach: Spitzer does his “penance” for patronising escorts by working for the Obama administration as a special appointee for $1 a year (not much punishment, since he’s wealthy, but then the “crime” is pretty weak-beer). The Know-Nothings will howl, but who cares?

It would certainly make up for the wasted opportunity of Clinton’s final years in office, when he was wasting his time dealing with the consequences of his own weak-beer crime rather than doing constructive things.

Comment #162: Gracchus.  on  04/21  at  06:43 PM

I don’t think you need to be a guy who has something seriously wrong with you to think that, if you’re going to ejaculate anyway, it would be nice to have breasts and a vagina

Are you for fucking serious? This is fucked up, man. Fucked UP. And “institutionalized misogyny” is exactly what we call it when someone can’t see how and why something like this is fucked up.

Right. If you’re going to masturbate anyway, an act which is engaged in by one person for one person’s sexual pleasure, you might as well import a non-human accessory to your sexual pleasure. And that right there is some of the thinking that makes johns misogynistic and paying for objectification and use, not sex.

Oh, and based on your experience in Nevada, it’s all just fine because you had plenty of choice in non-human masturbatory accessories. I see. Did it occur to you that at some point, sometime, those non-human masturbatory accessories are going to have to fuck someone if they want to pay their rent? That the only reason they can turn down johns with requests they find unacceptable is because the johns are so graciously willing to allow them to do that? That, in fact, the scope of their agency is defined and limited by what the marketplace of johns will allow it to be?

Comment #163: kristin  on  04/21  at  06:54 PM

I understand re disabled individuals, seeker, I was responding to a post talking about disabled and disfigured men using prostitutes, and society’s view of male and female sexuality in general. 

And unless and until prostitution is as widely available to women as it is to men I will never see defenses of it as not ultimately defenses of male privilege.  Thet’s not even getting into the other more troubling facets of prostitution, as it exists in most forms in the world today.

Comment #164: DonnaDiva  on  04/21  at  06:55 PM

“1.  Which ‘others’?  Third parties, or c?  In the former case, yeah, tell them to bugger off.  If it’s the latter, too bad so sad, Nice Guy. “

We are not in disagreement (except for the shitty little Nice Guy insult) but there is nuance.  This is where Gracchus’ point about people freeing themselves from others’ bullshit requirements, rather than blithely and blindly perpetuating them, is worth repeating.  Is, for example, A requiring something of B because it is genuinely A’s requirement?  Or because it’s taboo not to?  Part of a feminist analysis, I’ve always felt, is to not take any societal or sexual rule as a given, but to examine it and see if it’s truly egalitarian.  Feminism is a vehicle for liberating both genders. 

If “the party you’re trying to persuade to have ‘linear sex’ with you” is setting up a “hoop” [if the word can be used without offence] then it’s incumbent upon free people to consider whether or not that hoop is genuinely his or her choice, or whether they are just perpetuating a patriarchal frame.  To stick with the guy/girl example that gets so much comment, is she saying Not Before Marriage because she genuinely wants to or because she has been shamed into it even though she really wants to sleep with him Right NOW! ?  That’s sticky and tricky and difficult to solve.  We’re all familiar with creeps who break down one taboo by shaming the individual involved; for them as amoral bullies the problem of having a sexual relationship is easily solved by immoral if not physical force.  For everybody else it’s harder because decent people don’t want sex at the price of cruelty For some the circle can’t be squared; they can’t break free of the frame and either submit to that frame that neither wants, or they part ways perhaps more miserable than before.  Most people aren’t given to self- and societal analysis, nor inclined to challenge Received Wisdom; it’s far to easy to be slagged by all and sundry for doing so and the slagging whip falls heavier on women.  But men and women, together, must examine much of this nonsense, keep what’s best for them as individuals and tell everybody to fuck off on the rest.

Feel free to say that I’m advancing “male entitlement bullshit” if I think that everybody should be free to genuinely follow their own romantic and sexual path without jumping through hoops set by others but just didn’t say it in a way that satisfies you.  As you said, too bad so sad if that doesn’t meet whatever your standard is.

Comment #165: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  06:59 PM

DonnaDiva: Plenty of women are in a similar situation yet there isn’t a massive industry set up to provide them with paid sex partners.  If that’s not the apex of male privilege I don’t know what the fuck is.  Women who are disabled, disfigured, or aged out of the marketplace are pretty much rendered sexless.

Nicely put. Watching men contort themselves and their pro-prostitution arguments under the guise of libertarianism, feminism, liberalism, egalitarianism, the fact that mercury’s in fucking retrograde, etc, is just creepy and sad.

Hi dudes, Left, Right and other! The whole world is set up for your sexual gratification! It’s true! The whole entire world. Nice, right? Except women are raised, reared, taught, indoctrinated and beaten within an inch of their lives (or they really lose their lives! Whoops!) to be the providers of that gratification. Ho ho, weird, I know, but prostitution lies on that spectrum of oppression of women as the sex class. Gasp! And defending prostitution means you’re defending that oppression. Ha! Who knew?

But it’s fucking true. This thread is enraging.

Comment #166: mir  on  04/21  at  07:06 PM

Well, how else am I supposed to couch it? The anti-state right buys right into the idea of any kind of sex as an economic transaction, and the authoritarian left and right are both happy to poke their noses into bedrooms.

I was referring to seeker’s statement, not yours: “shoot the lion tamer and burn the hoops, so the lion can be free to jump on the piece of meat and devour it, vive la revolution.”  Lousy, lousy metaphor for sex.  Just godawful. 

I find it interesting that you conflate any scrutiny or criticism of your precious ‘linear sex’ with a desire to criminally punish it while at the same time feeling free to mock and disparage other processes, i.e., “hoops”.

If you really have no problem with something, likening it to road damage, bullies, and itchy rashes is an odd way to convey it.

DonnaDiva, exactly.

Comment #167: killjoy  on  04/21  at  07:15 PM

Is, for example, A requiring something of B because it is genuinely A’s requirement?  Or because it’s taboo not to?

What fucking practical difference does it make?  A is the expert on A. 

No, really.  A may not know what A really wants, but A sure as fuck knows better than B does.  “I know what you need, what you want, what you experience more than you do” is an incredibly privileged thing to say.  Pretty much textbook oppressive behaviour.

Comment #168: killjoy  on  04/21  at  07:26 PM

No, really.  A may not know what A really wants, but A sure as fuck knows better than B does.  “I know what you need, what you want, what you experience more than you do” is an incredibly privileged thing to say.  Pretty much textbook oppressive behaviour.

Oh but you know, killjoy, teh liberal dewdz just want to help us!  We have all this patriarchal baggage that’s keeping us from letting them slip us the sausage uh helping us explore our sexualities, dontchaknow.

Comment #169: DonnaDiva  on  04/21  at  07:37 PM

I don’t think you need to be a guy who has something seriously wrong with you to think that, if you’re going to ejaculate anyway, it would be nice to have breasts and a vagina

Maybe you should go whole hog and use a corpse.

Comment #170: Gavel Down  on  04/21  at  07:39 PM

“shoot the lion tamer and burn the hoops, so the lion can be free to jump on the piece of meat and devour it, vive la revolution.”

Newsflash, keshmeshi and killjoy: If you have to deliberately misstate what the other person said then your argument sucks.  But you knew that already, given that you’ve made arguments based on your anger and your assumptions—and, in keshmeshi’s case, outright scummy, personal lies—all the way through this thread.

We operate in a sexist, patriarchal culture and that frame sets most of the rules and brainwashes men and women alike.  Last time I checked this blog—and feminist theory—stood in proud and direct challenged that people who are raised and programmed by a patriarchal culture truly know what they want without examining the underlying assumptions. 

As for killjoy at 6:26 and DonnaDiva at 6:37:
Who the fuck said we were talking about men changing women?  I didn’t.  I thought I knew what was what and what I wanted when I was young and dating.  It was my feminist gfs and friends who played key roles in challenging a lot of the religious and patriarchal frames that I was carrying around with me.

Speaking about assumptions, you might want to drop yours that any male who disagrees with you is advancing a “what about da menz!!!!” viewpoint.  It’s goddamned lazy at best.  This whole thread has been a countless series of you leaping to assumptions about what I said and then attacking the assumptions.  If you want to take the position that only women are welcome (and right) in a feminist discussion then kindly have the backbone to say so.  It’s more direct and takes less time than wild-ass assumptions, misstatements, sneering condescension and outright lies.

Comment #171: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  08:17 PM

Ooo, accusations of indiscriminate male-bashing.  The bingo card is rapidly filling up.

Comment #172: killjoy  on  04/21  at  08:23 PM

That’s not bingo, killjoy, it’s description.  But you keep go on hiding behind cheap, ready-made insults to avoid the facts.  Why change now?

Comment #173: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  08:28 PM

Seeker6079: In your analogy you said the woman=treat (she doesn’t even merit being an active agent as the lion tamer), so killjoy’s summary of your analogy is EXACTLY what you said.

Given that you appear on every Nice Guy™ thread to defend nice guy behavior, lamenting that women are such fickle bitchez, and your posts here betray similar resentments about women who don’t understand that they are supposed to be operating under a mechanistic input A—>output B dynamic, you really ought to step back and consider why it is that the WOMEN on this thread read you as a privileged douchebag and you only seem to find support from other male commenters.

No really, step back and absorb.

Comment #174: history_mom  on  04/21  at  08:39 PM

Maybe you should go whole hog and use a corpse.

Excellent idea, GD! Since Teh Menz have Daily Sexual Needs that they need women to Fulfil so they have something to Ejaculate Into Anyway, why don’t we set up a program where willing women can donate their corpses to be used as sexual receptacles for pronging? In exchange, the women are comfortably supported during their lifetime.

This way, we can be guaranteed that men won’t harass, rape, buy, sell or otherwise treat us like inanimate masturbatory tools while we’re actually, you know, living human beings, because there will be a wealth of actual inanimate masturbatory tools for them to use and said pronging is really all about their Daily Sexual Needs, right? Right?

Comment #175: kristin  on  04/21  at  08:39 PM

Wallace: Seriously, I need to go wash the creepy off.  You literally do not consider prostitutes to be human beings.  Fucking hell.

Comment #176: history_mom  on  04/21  at  08:40 PM

history_mom, either provide a link to such alleged statements re NiceGuyism or “women are such fickle bitchez” or don’t make them.  I’m not a NiceGuy proponent or defender so don’t portray me as such.  Period.  Say so you’re no better than keshmeshi who has lied like mad and refused to provide a single cite.

I used the standard general colloquialism “jumped through the hoops”; killjoy took it back to its circus roots and ran with that.  I said kill the lion tamer and burn the whip (i.e. get rid of the patriarchy and its bullshit mandates) and those three looked past it and even used quotation marks to lie about me calling women tasty morsels, even though I’d clearly stated that the male-female setup “it is deliberately set up so that the man is always the captured lion, the woman is the living, breathing treat to be given away without agency of her own” and went on to detail in that and other posts about the unacceptability of such a frame.  Sorry, if you see that as sexist rather than as a description of a sexism that I wanted “burned” then you have serious reading comprehension problems.

Sorry, but I need repeat: if people need to lie and twist, and to make assumptions or misstate and then hang those flawed assumptions or misstatements on my shoulders as if they were me just to make their point then their point loses.

Comment #177: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  09:02 PM

typo correction:
“and even used quotation marks to lie…”
should read
“and even used quotation marks that were my words with their nastier statements inserted beside them to lie…”

Comment #178: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  09:04 PM

Seeker, you are a regular on this blog as am I, so cut the shit. Seriously, you apparently have zero self-awareness because your entry into Nice Guy posts (or any post about male/female relationships) complaining about women are as predictable as the cycles of the moon. I’m not going to dig up links because, frankly, I have a fucking life.  But funny how so many <strike>people</strike> women are just “maligning” you…or is it that you really don’t see why your posts on these topics piss us off?

Re-read yourself. Re-read the criticisms of what you wrote and instead of reacting to them, figure out why you are so consistently “misinterpreted”.  On certain issues, when you find yourself often at odds with others it behooves you to find out if YOU are the problem.

Comment #179: history_mom  on  04/21  at  09:11 PM

Again:
Provide a link or links if you can.  “Oh yeah, look it up yourself” in response to a bullshit call is exactly worthless.

Comment #180: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  09:20 PM

I just blatantly stole this from a commenter over at I Blame The Patriarchy because it’s so apropos:

I propose that from now on we replace the term “navelgazing” with “wienergazing”, since it appears that men can always find some profound, life-affirming, renewing-faith-in-humanity message in their boners.

Comment #181: kristin  on  04/21  at  09:22 PM

Ah, the obligatory “my job sucks too so it’s just like prostitution” from someone who clearly has no personal experience with sex work.  Thanks for sharing.

Okay Donna, tell us about your experience with sex work.

Comment #182: pablo  on  04/21  at  09:43 PM

I didn’t tell you to look it up yourself.  I told you that I don’t have time for reindeer games.  I am also saying that if you find yourself in a defensive position on certain topics (i.e. men, women, and sex) EVERY TIME then the problem likely isn’t everyone else, the problem is YOU.

Comment #183: history_mom  on  04/21  at  10:19 PM

yes, yes, yes, history_mom, we get it.  You don’t want to be arsed to back up your bullshit allegations.  We get it.

Comment #184: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  10:24 PM

Please, for the love of god, will someone get what’s wrong with Eliot Spitzer?

I hope they don’t get it ... tertiary syphillis isn’t a good thing!

Comment #185: Ms Kate  on  04/21  at  10:26 PM

“I hope they don’t get it ... tertiary syphillis isn’t a good thing! “

Bonus points for the Randolph Churchill reference.

Comment #186: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  10:41 PM

From the excerpt you quote from the Newsweek story:

Among the many odd traits of political animals is that while they tend to find themselves fascinating, they have little aptitude for, and less interest in, analyzing themselves. Spitzer is no exception.

I don’t think any of us has this aptitude.  We may think we do, but I don’t think it’s logically possible for any of us to achieve any real understanding of our own motives, hangups, anxieties, etc.  Whatever it is that we’re trying to come to terms with will influence the process of coming-to-terms itself, and in the end I think we’re just weaving Just So stories about ourselves, and believing the ones that serve whatever needs we have.

Comment #187: Pesto  on  04/21  at  11:06 PM

Well, history_mom, there’s this thread, for starters, with some of the same dynamic going on, ditto here, and here

Not to enlarge the scope of what’s being argued about, or re-argue those arguments, but the dynamic is the same: someone objects to something he said, accusations of “twisting”, reading comprehension failure, and ultimately man-hating result; the argument splits along gender lines some of the time, which becomes further “evidence” of male-bashing.

Comment #188: killjoy  on  04/21  at  11:15 PM

“The essence of [opposing] NiceGuydom (TM) is not asserting that all women make wise choices.  They take make bizarre and self-destructive batshit paths just like men - - including and especially me - - have.  NiceGuydom lies in seeing such nonsense and [making] generalized, contemptuous conclusions about women whilst simultaneously engaging in male-centered self-pity and sexist angst.

[Square brackets denote typo correction made in same thread.]

The fact is that the macroculture reinforces a confusing, paradoxical mix of antiquated notions, progressive notions and just plain lying and self-serving bullshit from both genders.  People starting their dating lives now have no established-accepted frames of reference, having wisely rejected many of those nonsense frames from days gone by.  They have to make their own rules, and I have a sneaking suspicion that (a) that freedom to do so and (b) fear of what they might choose if they were free is what drives a lot of the panic merchants.

Personally, I think a starting point of “look, I’m not going to put up with that nonsense” is an excellent starting point for ANYBODY going out to fuck/date/commit/other.  If you want to get laid, fine.  Be honest around it.  Don’t surround it with lies or with false expectations.  If you want to date/commit, fine; same rules.

there’s more for you as a human being in an egalitarian culture.  Second, lifting the bullshit expectations and burdens off women is not only moral but self-interested: it frees you from your own set of crushing patriarchal bullshit expectations and traditions.

The assholes of the world want us to just accept shitty sex or no sex or pushy, antique male-centred demands in which the woman has little to no say, and that’s that, hence your accurate use of the word “regular”.  dwhite (and me, to be fair) are hanging our hats on an egalitarian stance of sometimes puttin’ out when you aren’t in the mood because that’s what a successful relationship sometimes hinges on: sometimes doing things you’d rather not simply could you would rather make your partner happy than not.  It’s when it oozes into regularity and entitlement that it becomes scummy.  (Me, personally, I’d put a higher onus on the het males than the het females…

Yeah, misogynist bullshit, the lot of it.

killjoy, I only accuse people of twisting my words if they twist my words.  If they don’t, I don’t.  If they’re right, I concede.  If I make a mistake I do my best to acknowledge it.  But I don’t sit still for people making assumptions and misstatements and then demanding that I concede that their deceitful frame is valid.  That’s what Faye was doing in one of the threads that you cite, for example: deliberately lifting statements addressing one situation and context and applying them to a wholly unrelated matter.  And don’t expect me to sit still while keshmeshi lies her ass off, stating that I said things about my ex-wife that I never said.

Comment #189: seeker6079  on  04/21  at  11:44 PM

Okay Donna, tell us about your experience with sex work.

Don’t have any.  Then again, I’m not the one comparing my job to it.

Comment #190: DonnaDiva  on  04/22  at  12:11 AM

That may be true for many johns, but it’s damned simplistic and an over-generalization.  This website has on countless occasions dealt with the totally screwed up sexual psyche of our culture, including the countless, countless obstacles (religious, legal, cultural, etc.) placed in the way of exercising straightforward sexuality outside the mandated prison of a conventional marriage.  It is a tad incomplete to decry the demonization of sexuality then decry one of the simplest ways of getting sex.  Prostitution exists in part as a linear achievement of a sexual goal: X wants sex (or a certain type of sex) then X can obtain sex if B is willing to sell it.  That drives a lot of people insane.  ”What??? No marriage required?  No attorning to conventional sexual norms?  No hoops to jump through????  No holding one’s sexuality hostage to every single little pricky-shit with a religious, ideological or economic agenda?  Unforgivable!!!!”

One of the reasons that prostitutes are dehumanized is the demonization of what they do.  If we concede that prostitution will exist, that it’s normal, inevitable and not the subject of legal viciousness, if we accept that a prostitute is both a person and a worker just like any other then we can go a very long way to ripping out the exploitation, cruelty and sadism of its current prosecuted existence.

seeker, this is your post that set many of us off in this thread.  You were acting like prostitution was a cool way to subvert conventional sexual norms, which is a laugh.  Prostitution IS a conventional sexual norm.  It’s why they call it the ‘oldest profession’.  You yourself acknowledge this (while totally contradicting yourself) in the very next paragraph when you call it “normal, inevitable”.  Like I said upthread, defending prostitution (beyond wanting to decriminalize the prostitutes) is defending a longstanding male privilege.

Comment #191: DonnaDiva  on  04/22  at  12:27 AM

seeker, the fact that you’ve said anti-sexist things in one context does not mean that everything you have ever said is above scrutiny or reproach.

Look, I get that it’s possible to say something, mean it one way, and have it taken another way.  But not everyone who takes you “wrong” is malicious or stupid.  You were echoing the language of MRAs and Nice Guys, even if it was inadvertent, and then you dug yourself in deeper with that whole “a woman saying no to NSA sex is comparable to bad road design, and no one defends bad road design” thing. 

Personally, your “but what if you’re just saying no because you’re brainwashed or repressed?” statement pissed me off because I’ve had men tell me that exact thing when I wasn’t turned on by the exact same things that turned them on, and a lot of other women have had that experience too, where our assertions about what we liked and didn’t like in sex and relationships were dismissed or ignored.  It’s historically been applied in a gendered way.  Kinsey used that kind of language about women.  Alex Comfort used that kind of language about women.  Dov Charney’s fans use that kind of language about women—women, specifically; women are repressed, women are brainwashed, women are too emotional, women are the problem.  You referenced that framework.

Furthermore, telling people their sexuality is the result of patriarchal brainwashing or other psychological damage and would change if we were in a better society/contributes to the crappiness of our society is exactly what anti-porn radical feminists have said to BDSM practitioners, sex workers by choice, people who enjoy porn, women who like to give head, straight women, etc., and exactly what fundies tell gay people, and those people are justifiably insulted and pissed off.  I’m not sure how dismissing people who prefer “non-linear sex” with negative language like “held hostage” and “jump through hoops” and condescending nonsense about how it’s not the woman “holding the hoop” when she says she wants X, Y, and Z before she has sex, it’s OUR SOCIETY ZOMG, is different. 

Fine if you had ideas about what you wanted from relationships and sex as a young person that you became convinced were wrong, but not everybody follows that path, and everybody’s idea of freedom and sexual happiness isn’t the same as yours, which you claim to get, but I don’t think you really do.

I realize this likely falls on deaf ears, as you are so heavily invested in your “I never said anything remotely questionable no matter what anyone says you’re trying to punish me for my linear sexuality” mentality that this’ll just feed your little persecution complex, but what the hell.

Comment #192: killjoy  on  04/22  at  12:39 AM

DonnaDiva, I’m not seeing any of what you are claiming in that quote.

It looks to me like you are seriously infusing Seeker’s statements with your own stereotypes of “what those people always say”.

Perhaps you should reread it - it really doesn’t compare to your description much at all.

Comment #193: Ms Kate  on  04/22  at  12:40 AM

You were acting like prostitution was a cool way to subvert conventional sexual norms, which is a laugh.

Not to mention the comments about marriage.  There are lots of ways to criticize marriage, many of them very valid, but the idea that it’s a horrible thing, “prison” or “blackmail” or “bribery” with “frozen smiles” for everyone who engages in it?  No.  It is not, any more than sex work is.

Comment #194: killjoy  on  04/22  at  12:45 AM

Thanks killjoy, history_mom, catgirl, keshmeshi, LR and DonnaDiva , for eating the goddamn thread, you thickheaded jackers.
‘Cause nobody here wanted to have a discussion or anything, we just wanted to see y’all say “this poster licks goat balls” 190 times. Fucking hell!

Comment #195: redwards  on  04/22  at  01:01 AM

Ms Kate, what part of “Prostitution exists in part as a linear achievement of a sexual goal: X wants sex (or a certain type of sex) then X can obtain sex if B is willing to sell it.  That drives a lot of people insane.  ”What??? No marriage required?  No attorning to conventional sexual norms?  No hoops to jump through????  No holding one’s sexuality hostage to every single little pricky-shit with a religious, ideological or economic agenda?  Unforgivable!!!!” doesn’t read like an endorsement of (that part) of prostitution?  Which is seeker’s, or anyone else’s prerogative to do.  I just remind people that prostitution is an institution that exists (for all intents and purposes) to serve the sexual demands of men.  You can gender neutralize it all you want with “Person X” buying sex from “Person B” but everyone knows that there’s a 99% chance that X is a man.  So yeah, I really don’t think you can defend prostitution (beyond decriminalizing the prostitutes, once again) without it being a defense of male privilege.  YMMV but my reading comprehension is just fine TYVM.

Comment #196: DonnaDiva  on  04/22  at  01:06 AM

you were acting like prostitution was a cool way to subvert conventional sexual norms, which is a laugh.  Prostitution IS a conventional sexual norm.

A huge gap in my argument.  I was trying to make a number of points: that a lot of people hate prostitution in and of itself for its linearity; that recognizing prostitution is recognizing something that’s inevitable; that de-demonizing sex work is a necessary prerequisite to improving the lot of sex workers.  Those points remain valid but don’t address your blockquoted point.

In a way one can look at it as, `yes, it’s normal and inevitable, but in its current format usually patriarchal and exploitative’, which then raises the question of whether non-exploitative and non-anti-women form of sex work is possible.  My commitment to the philosophical point of a pure freedom approach took too little account of the reality on the ground, a criticism that I have made myself of economic libertarians, for example.

In terms of protecting sex workers I think that a basic starting point has to be decriminalization of the sex work.  If one doesn’t do that then we never break free of the “just another criminal whore” mindset currently found in police forces, prosecutors and policy makers.  If we accept that prostitution exploits women and drives them to the margins of society where they are easy prey for sickos and killers then perhaps the first step is saying, “okay, let’s get them back from the margins, let’s at least make sure that dozens of them can’t disappear into some grinder and pig farm like Pickton’s before the cops give a damn”  ... and then, once that has been achieved, address whether prostitution should exist at all.  Again, I think that people should be allowed to do it, but whether or not that can actually be achieved absent sexism or exploitation is a question that I don’t have the answer to.  I have my own philosophical starting point and I stated that, but is that pure philosophy doable?  I’m not certain.

Comment #197: seeker6079  on  04/22  at  01:17 AM

Oh, poor widdle redwards has nothing better to contribute! 

For your next post, why don’t you tell us how shrill we sound and suggest that if we were less hostile we would have more feminist-friendly allies among fauxgressives like seeker.  That would be really original. And helpful.

Comment #198: history_mom  on  04/22  at  01:23 AM

killjoy, you seriously need some reading comprehension skills:

* The “blackmail”, “bribery” and “frozen smiles” was in direct reference to people being forced into marriage as the only option within a conservative religious environment.

* You speak of the “because I’ve had men tell me that exact thing when I wasn’t turned on by the exact same things that turned them on, and a lot of other women have had that experience too” ... and ignore that I said “We’re all familiar with creeps who break down one taboo by shaming the individual involved; for them as amoral bullies the problem of having a sexual relationship is easily solved by immoral if not physical
force.  For everybody else it’s harder because decent people don’t want sex at the price of cruelty”. 

* Your comments on nonstandard sexuality (BDSM etc.) simply cannot be reconciled with my point repeated ad nauseum that people be free to choose their own paths, period, absent outsiders’ mandates enforced by culture or law.

* Re Dov Charney et al.  If I say that how both men and women are deeply warped by the metaculture it’s not code language for “women are screwed in the head”, it means that I believe that “both men and women are deeply warped by the metaculture”.  There’s no point in making a clear argument which openly notes both genders if you’re just going to assume that I’m only talking about women.  If that’s the case then how can we address the damage that the patriarchy does to both genders?  Words mean things and if I say it I mean it; I’m not a code kind of person, that much is clear.

* re non linear and jump through hoops.  ““Hey, if I want to make a partner literally jump through hoops in order to fuck me, and he’s amenable to it, what’s it to you?” “Nothing, and hooray because that’s exactly my points: individual choice, mutuality, consent rule.  The two of you chose the path.  It’s when others put those hoops in place and oblige you to jump through them that the problem arises. “

Regarding the brainwashing, etc.:  Are you seriously taking the position on a feminist blog that the way that our metaculture handles gender relationships and expectations and interactions in dating isn’t deeply fucked up?  Wow.

One last point: if you want to address NiceGuy/MRA problems, then you might start with this: just because a feminist man worries about what the patriarchy does to fuck up men as well has his worrying about what it does to fuck up women does not automatically mean that he doesn’t give a shit about women now; it means that he can see and wants to address the damage done to both genders.  There is a tendency on occasion for people to get lazy and assume that if one advances what can be called a “male” opinion then one is marching in lockstep with the women-haters; all the trite canards and labels like “MRA” and “what about da menz” come out because they’re easy weapons.  I don’t feel that feminism is incompatible with improving the lot of men; I think it essential to improving the lot of everybody.  If you want to take the view that feminism is a Girlz Only club and men giving a shit about men as well as women can be and should be safely dissed and dismissed, then say so.  All I ask is that you don’t equate feminist men with whom you disagree with misogynists.

Comment #199: seeker6079  on  04/22  at  01:24 AM

and history_mom proves my point: I want things to be better for men and women, ergo I’m a fauxgressive.

Comment #200: seeker6079  on  04/22  at  01:27 AM

Plenty of women are in a similar situation yet there isn’t a massive industry set up to provide them with paid sex partners.  If that’s not the apex of male privilege I don’t know what the fuck is.  Women who are disabled, disfigured, or aged out of the marketplace are pretty much rendered sexless.

Nicely put. Watching men contort themselves and their pro-prostitution arguments under the guise of libertarianism, feminism, liberalism, egalitarianism, the fact that mercury’s in fucking retrograde, etc, is just creepy and sad.

Since we seem to have more than a few gentlemen on this thread who seem to have no idea why the ladies are becoming pissed off at their insistence that prostitution can be, like, totally egalitarian, I thought I’d repost a bit of a hint.

Until an 80-year-old woman can go out and hire a 25-year-old man to get her off, we’re talking about an institution that is solely set up for the comfort and privilege of men.

Comment #201: Mnemosyne  on  04/22  at  01:59 AM

The “blackmail”, “bribery” and “frozen smiles” was in direct reference to people being forced into marriage as the only option within a conservative religious environment.

I don’t give a shit; you referred to marriage as a “prison”, no qualifiers, which means you have a deeply negative view of that institution, not just forcing people into it.  Really, I’m about waiting for you to bust out the ball-and-chain and “take my wife, please” jokes.

“We’re all familiar with creeps who break down one taboo by shaming the individual involved; for them as amoral bullies the problem of having a sexual relationship is easily solved by immoral if not physical
force.  For everybody else it’s harder because decent people don’t want sex at the price of cruelty”.

No, so instead you just speculate on how brainwashed other people are to not want to do “linear sex”, in a very respectful way.  Whatever, dude.  If getting what you want from one casual partner (or potential partner) is that difficult, you find another one.  To me this whole passage sounds like you trying to rationalize a kinder, gentler kind of bullying—oh, it’s so hard, but I don’t want to be cruel, but he or she just has this silly taboo, what do I dooooooooooo…

Your comments on nonstandard sexuality (BDSM etc.) simply cannot be reconciled with my point repeated ad nauseum that people be free to choose their own paths, period, absent outsiders’ mandates enforced by culture or law.

Which you repeatedly undermined by trashing sexualities and relationship styles you don’t approve of.

There’s no point in making a clear argument which openly notes both genders if you’re just going to assume that I’m only talking about women.  If that’s the case then how can we address the damage that the patriarchy does to both genders?  Words mean things and if I say it I mean it; I’m not a code kind of person, that much is clear.

You were trashing sexual and relationship styles that have been culturally associated with women (factually or not) in language frequently used to trash women.  The fact that you didn’t think there was a gender element in what you said doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.

Your comments on nonstandard sexuality (BDSM etc.) simply cannot be reconciled with my point repeated ad nauseum that people be free to choose their own paths, period, absent outsiders’ mandates enforced by culture or law.

Unlike people with “standard” sexuality, whom you feel free to judge, trash, and blame for social problems.  That was my entire point.

re non linear and jump through hoops.  ““Hey, if I want to make a partner literally jump through hoops in order to fuck me, and he’s amenable to it, what’s it to you?” “Nothing, and hooray because that’s exactly my points: individual choice, mutuality, consent rule.  The two of you chose the path.  It’s when others put those hoops in place and oblige you to jump through them that the problem arises. “

So you contradicted yourself in the thread.  Big whoop.

If you want to take the view that feminism is a Girlz Only club and men giving a shit about men as well as women can be and should be safely dissed and dismissed, then say so.  All I ask is that you don’t equate feminist men with whom you disagree with misogynists.

At this point I haven’t the foggiest what you mean.  It’s weird for you to insist you are so gender neutral and then cry out that I’m being awful to men in general.  How, exactly?  I agree with you about decriminalizing prostitution; I don’t believe johns are generally sadists; I agree with you that withholding sex in relationships is cruel; I probably agree with you on more things than not.  I don’t know what you’re referring to unless it’s my belief that straight women should be respected and not arrogantly second-guessed when we decide we don’t want “linear sex” (or don’t want it now, or don’t want it with a given man).  If you think that’s male-bashing that speaks volumes about you.

Comment #202: killjoy  on  04/22  at  02:17 AM

* The “blackmail”, “bribery” and “frozen smiles” was in direct reference to people being forced into marriage as the only option within a conservative religious environment.

Expressions that are remarkably similar to what people forced into prostitution are expected to exhibit.  Within that very same conservative religious environment, often.

* re non linear and jump through hoops.  ““Hey, if I want to make a partner literally jump through hoops in order to fuck me, and he’s amenable to it, what’s it to you?” “Nothing, and hooray because that’s exactly my points: individual choice, mutuality, consent rule.  The two of you chose the path.  It’s when others put those hoops in place and oblige you to jump through them that the problem arises. “

Fair enough, but another problem arises when a Dov Charney-type douchebag uses that line of persuasion to try to convince you that the only reason you’re not hopping on his cock is because you are repressed by the Patriarchy. 

Regarding the brainwashing, etc.:  Are you seriously taking the position on a feminist blog that the way that our metaculture handles gender relationships and expectations and interactions in dating isn’t deeply fucked up?  Wow.

Can’t speak for killjoy, but I know I’m not.  I’m just saying that I don’t have to accept YOUR assessment of, and solution to, the fucked-upness. 

One last point: if you want to address NiceGuy/MRA problems, then you might start with this: just because a feminist man worries about what the patriarchy does to fuck up men as well has his worrying about what it does to fuck up women does not automatically mean that he doesn’t give a shit about women now; it means that he can see and wants to address the damage done to both genders.  There is a tendency on occasion for people to get lazy and assume that if one advances what can be called a “male” opinion then one is marching in lockstep with the women-haters; all the trite canards and labels like “MRA” and “what about da menz” come out because they’re easy weapons.  I don’t feel that feminism is incompatible with improving the lot of men; I think it essential to improving the lot of everybody.  If you want to take the view that feminism is a Girlz Only club and men giving a shit about men as well as women can be and should be safely dissed and dismissed, then say so.  All I ask is that you don’t equate feminist men with whom you disagree with misogynists.

Well then stop acting like you’re not speaking from a male point of view when discussing a male-centric institution like prostitution.

Comment #203: DonnaDiva  on  04/22  at  02:58 AM

Thanks killjoy, history_mom, catgirl, keshmeshi, LR and DonnaDiva , for eating the goddamn thread, you thickheaded jackers.
‘Cause nobody here wanted to have a discussion or anything, we just wanted to see y’all say “this poster licks goat balls” 190 times. Fucking hell!

‘Cause you didn’t notice that the goat ball-licking poster wasn’t just as enthusiastic about participating in the supposed threadjacking.  Thanks for putting the blame where it rightfully lies, on the uppity bitchez.  :rollseyes:

Comment #204: DonnaDiva  on  04/22  at  03:32 AM

Thanks killjoy, history_mom, catgirl, keshmeshi, LR and DonnaDiva , for eating the goddamn thread, you thickheaded jackers.

Yeah! What makes you uppity women think you have any business speaking up on a feminist blog! And talking about prostitution in a thread about prostitution even! Sheesh.

Comment #205: kristin  on  04/22  at  04:07 AM

“I think, and said at the time, that Spitzer is a sadist.  I think many to most men who hire prostitutes are on some level, and the rationalization is that the money makes fucking someone who really doesn’t want to fuck you okay.”

That may be true for many johns, but it’s damned simplistic and an over-generalization.

So, in your opinion, Spitzer is not an asshole who got off on non-consensual abusive sex? Because that’s what the fucking post was about. It would be great if prostitution were an egalitarian exchange where everybody has fun. But it’s not, and the fact that it’s not is not OK.

Who says that anybody has to enjoy their work for it to be valid?

This is you saying it’s A-OK that prostitution may involve having sex with someone you wouldn’t touch ...ever… unless they were paying you. Or am I just misunderstanding what you keep saying six different ways?

Comment #206: banisteriopsis  on  04/22  at  05:22 AM

You were acting like prostitution was a cool way to subvert conventional sexual norms, which is a laugh.

Really? I saw nothing portraying prostitution as “cool.” I read it as: society provides very limited “acceptable” means to transgress the rules and get sex; one is prostitution (which, I’d imagine, he finds less of a “solution” than part of the larger problem).

Prosititution is an established societal institution because patriarchies with sexual norms this screwed-up always somehow incorporate bleeder valves to prevent the inherent contradictions in those norms from making themselves destructively evident. As Margaret Atwood points out in The Handmaid’s Tale, even (or especially) a dystopian Xtian fantasist society like the Republic of Gilead would have some form of prostitution in place, and that institution would skew almost exclusively to male demand.

And due to that situation, it’s no co-incidence that marriage often involves (to quote DonnaDiva):

Expressions that are remarkably similar to what people forced into prostitution are expected to exhibit.  Within that very same conservative religious environment, often.

Speaking of marriage:

Not to mention the comments about marriage.  There are lots of ways to criticize marriage, many of them very valid, but the idea that it’s a horrible thing, “prison” or “blackmail” or “bribery” with “frozen smiles” for everyone who engages in it?.

He’s criticising it in the context of societal expectations regarding sex, which is a problem for those of us who don’t see marriage as an unqualified good for everyone, but still enjoy good sex. So Seeker personally has a “deeply negative” view of marriage? Big deal. His more important point is that society pushes it as complete positive.

another problem arises when a Dov Charney-type douchebag uses that line of persuasion to try to convince you that the only reason you’re not hopping on his cock is because you are repressed by the Patriarchy.

If a feminist woman is under-educated enough about her own sexual ideology to fall for that line from a pseudo-feminist sexual opportunist like Dov Charney (or Hugh Hefner), that doesn’t make the basic argument itself invalid. Nor does it necessarily make Seeker a slimeball misogynist.

Comment #207: Gracchus.  on  04/22  at  09:42 AM

Since we seem to have more than a few gentlemen on this thread who seem to have no idea why the ladies are becoming pissed off at their insistence that prostitution can be, like, totally egalitarian, I thought I’d repost a bit of a hint.

Until an 80-year-old woman can go out and hire a 25-year-old man to get her off, we’re talking about an institution that is solely set up for the comfort and privilege of men.

This, to me, is a variation of the statement, above, along the lines of “don’t tell me women aren’t just as horny as men.”  If enough women would risk arrest to pay for sex with cracked out, skanky guys, a more vibrant market of male prostitutes would be available.  It’s not like male crackheads don’t prostitute themselves.

Comment #208: Wallace  on  04/22  at  10:03 AM

This is you saying it’s A-OK that prostitution may involve having sex with someone you wouldn’t touch ...ever… unless they were paying you.

No, that’s him saying that just because you hate your soul-crushing job and wouldn’t do it if you weren’t getting paid, it’s still valid work as far as the primary goal of making money.

That prostitution is considered invalid by the law and the winking social mores that the law serves is a separate issue—the one Seeker is trying to address.

Comment #209: Gracchus.  on  04/22  at  10:10 AM

catgirl, I think you’re mistaken.  First, I think there are lots and lots of guys who do not have the game to line up the kind of NSA sexual arrangement you’re talking about.

It’s not a game.  You’re thinking of something completely different than I am, where a man has to play a game to convince some woman to give him sex.  Some women are also looking for NSA sex, and we hate games too.

blockquote> And I find the idea that being good in bed has anything to do with it is weird, when showing a woman that you’re good in bed would first require you to get her in bed.  Getting her to bed is the step most guys can’t get past. </blockquote>

It does have something to do with how good a guy is in bed.  No, it’s not about being a super stud or Brad Pitt.  It’s about the realization that the woman might actually like sex.  It goes a long way.  I’ve seen plenty of guys “visit” the hook-up culture.  They have sex once or a few times, and since they just don’t get it that the woman enjoys sex too, eventually the women in hook-up culture just give up on them and go back to the hook-up guys.  I hooked up with a guy who was just shocked when I asked him to take off his clothes and let me watch. 

Also, the only guy I know that has been with a prostitute is the most able with women.  He’s a guy that will have a girlfriend, and have two or three things going on the side.

 

I’d like to know how sexually satisfied these women were, and also whether or not he was exaggerating.  Sadly, plenty of women buy into the stereotype that they can’t enjoy sex, so they never even try and they just settle for other reasons.  I’m all for open relationships, but if this guy was cheating on his girlfriend, I highly doubt that he cared about her satisfaction in bed.  Maybe all these women tolerated him because it’s so socially important to have some man that likes you, no matter what the cost.  Or maybe this one guy is just weird.  The implication that a man is awesome because he can get some on the side is one reason why people cheat in the first place.  Honestly, this guy just sounds insecure to me, like he has something to prove.

Which is kind of the Elliot Spitzer paradox.  He could have lined something up through traditional means, if he were inclined to do so.

I disagree.  His wife would probably do him, but I don’t think many other women would do him for free.

Comment #210: bananacat  on  04/22  at  10:11 AM

<blockquote>Which is kind of the Elliot Spitzer paradox.  He could have lined something up through traditional means, if he were inclined to do so.

I disagree.  His wife would probably do him, but I don’t think many other women would do him for free.</blockquote>

I believe his issue was not so much that his wife wouldn’t fuck him but that she wasn’t exactly keen on letting him choke her while they fucked.  <allegedly> He turned to high-end prostitutes for that, and failed to disclose to them what he was actually wanting to buy. </allegedly>  If those allegations are true, that would be sexual assault (and criminal battery) but he’d never get prosecuted for that, because hey, she’s a goddamn prostitute and what did she expect?

Which sort of goes to show that consent is problematic even at the best-paid levels of prostitution.  A whole lot* would have to change before I was comfortable with it.  And yes, I understand that there are some men who have difficulty finding people willing to let them fuck them.  That is unfortunate, but no one is obliged to fuck anyone they don’t want to fuck.  It’s a rule (or it should be a rule): the person saying ‘no’ gets priority.


* A whole lot being the rape culture, in which prostitution holds a place of high honor.

Comment #211: kaninchen  on  04/22  at  10:59 AM

I disagree.  His wife would probably do him, but I don’t think many other women would do him for free.

This is nitpicky.  But you’ve got to realize that you can’t go on and on about how anyone can establish one of these NSA relationships as an alternative to seeing a prostitute, and then say “except for the guy we’re talking about who went to a prostitute”.

Comment #212: Wallace  on  04/22  at  11:06 AM

How many here would have forgiven Mr Spitzer for his actions had he not been involved in prosecuting prostitution rings?  Yeah, that’s hypocrisy, but that doesn’t seem to me to be the basic thrust of Amanda’s argument.

Comment #213: Dana  on  04/22  at  11:11 AM

How many here would have forgiven Mr Spitzer for his actions had he not been involved in prosecuting prostitution rings?

I would not.  That he made his bones that way adds just that much more to his pile of steaming bullshit, but he deserves opprobrium anyway for <allegedly> engaging in the demand side of prostitution and for assaulting the women he payed to fuck him </allegedly>.

And Wallace, I’ve never gone on about how anyone can go find NSA sex.  But see above where I said that nobody is guaranteed access to other people’s bodies, period.  Also, you’re still really, really creepy about women.

Comment #214: kaninchen  on  04/22  at  11:23 AM

This is nitpicky. But you’ve got to realize that you can’t go on and on about how anyone can establish one of these NSA relationships as an alternative to seeing a prostitute, and then say “except for the guy we’re talking about who went to a prostitute”.

First, it’s not nitpicky at all. If you go beyond your narrow constraint that catgirl is talking about cash-on-the-barrelhead prostitution, you’d understand that there also non-hookers who would do him, but not “for free.”

Second, Spitzer, as a mainstream public figure, is more constrained than me or catgirl when it comes to opting out of societal norms (in re: NSA, not non-consensual choking). I suppose he figured that a high-priced professional escort agency would be a good alternative. Unfortunately for him, he had enemies who didn’t have too much trouble subverting the agency’s professional discretion (probably because they’re clients, too).

Third, while I’ve tried to be kind, your view of women—prostitutes or otherwise—is indeed creepy.  Seriously, Wallace, quit while you’re behind.

Comment #215: Gracchus.  on  04/22  at  12:04 PM

If enough women would risk arrest to pay for sex with cracked out, skanky guys, a more vibrant market of male prostitutes would be available.  It’s not like male crackheads don’t prostitute themselves.

There are two major things wrong with this.  The first being the wildly problematic view of sex workers of any gender—many are addicts because their addiction gives their pimps a really good tool for controlling them.  Others are neither cracked out nor skanky.

The second wrong thing is that it is true there are male sex workers.  But their clients are men.  Sex work is still overwhelmingly about servicing men.

Comment #216: kaninchen  on  04/22  at  12:13 PM

If enough women would risk arrest to pay for sex with cracked out, skanky guys, a more vibrant market of male prostitutes would be available.  It’s not like male crackheads don’t prostitute themselves.

That’s right, they prostitute themselves ... to other men, who find it arousing that they can pick up a drug addict and force him to have sex for money because he has an addiction to feed.  Really, the only possible reason that women wouldn’t understand how totally hawt it is to make a crack addict give you a blow job so s/he can afford another pipe is because women don’t have real sex drives, amiright?

Do you really not find it odd at all that (some) men are completely willing to pick up drug addicts and give them money for sex, and that they would rather do that than go out and find a non-addict who will willingly sleep with them for free?  Even today there’s still a pretty major hook-up culture for gay men and it’s even easier for them to find someone for a no-strings-attached encounter than it is for a straight man.  So why do you think that some of them prefer going out and paying a random drug addict instead of randomly hooking up with someone they’ll never have to see again anyway?  Maybe it has a little something to do with the power relationship between someone choosing to have sex with you and being able to force someone to have sex with you because they need the money, yes?

Comment #217: Mnemosyne  on  04/22  at  12:28 PM

I suppose he figured that a high-priced professional escort agency would be a good alternative.

Plus he knew that if any woman that he hired tried to blackmail him, he had the power to throw her in jail and plenty of history of doing so.  Which is why Spitzer is extra-super-special creepy:  even beyond the “normal” fucked-up john/prostitute power dynamic, he used the full power of the law and of his elected position to make sure that he kept the upper hand in the relationship at all times.  You think that none of those prostitutes or madams knew that he made his name by busting them and putting them in jail, and that none of them were aware of that threat hanging over their heads at all times?

Comment #218: Mnemosyne  on  04/22  at  12:33 PM

Plus he knew that if any woman that he hired tried to blackmail him, he had the power to throw her in jail and plenty of history of doing so.  Which is why Spitzer is extra-super-special creepy

Mutual blackmail—always a dangerous game. From what I read about the roleplaying scenes he allegedly enjoys, that might be what turns his crank: an opponent who fights back, but is ultimately powerless against him.

Comment #219: Gracchus.  on  04/22  at  12:41 PM

“an opponent who fights back, but is ultimately powerless against him. “

The very definition of “john”.

Comment #220: Gypsy Lee  on  04/22  at  02:32 PM

I understand you all think I’m creepy.  Whatever.  All I’m trying to do is look at the situation without judging the prostitute or the john.  I think a lot, on this blog, people talk about male motivations and thought processes and they’re way off.  It could be that not everyone who goes to a prostitute is a creepy loser who can’t please women and wants to exert his power, and not every prostitute (or would-be prostitute, if it were made legal) is an exploited victim forced into it by forces beyond her control .  Maybe I’m off, but I don’t think I’m really saying much other than a normal guy might consider seeing a prostitute, and a normal woman might like the work.  I sound creepy, I think, because I don’t proceed from the assumption that prostitution is creepy.

Comment #221: Wallace  on  04/22  at  03:47 PM

No, you sound creepy because you have a) reduced women to their component body parts in a textbook example of objectification (prostitutes are PEOPLE not masturbatory devices); b) you have repeatedly justified prostitution from the perspective of the non-coerced party (i.e. the john) and seem hellbent on clinging to the “happy hooker” myth; and c) find nothing problematic or coercive about the fact that abuse/addiction plays an overwhelming role in prostitution and indeed suggest that women should start to view prostitutes in the same dehumanized and fucked up way that you do.

If that is the “normal” guy perspective, we are truly in deep shit as a culture.

Comment #222: history_mom  on  04/22  at  04:04 PM

I sound creepy, I think, because I don’t proceed from the assumption that prostitution is creepy.

No, Wallace, you sound creepy because:

1. You characterise prostitutes as “breasts and a vagina” (i.e. sexual objects and sperm depositories without thought or agency)

2. The only sort of prostitutes you can conceive of either Pretty Woman/Happy Hooker fantasy streetwalkers, or skanky crackheads and employees of cheap brothels (the second, reality-based group, being people without many options who are easily marginalised and used, as opposed to professionals who get into the business for a variety of reasons)

3. You equate the ability to get someone into bed, by whatever means (“game”), with being good in bed (i.e. the only thing that counts in sex is that the man gets off—all the rest is window dressing)

4. You can’t seem to grasp catgirl’s concept that there are unmarginalised women who actually enjoy NSA sex—for free or otherwise (i.e. it’s either the Madonna or the Whore for you).

All of that put together is creepy in and of itself. What pushes it into creepy overdrive is that you’re so earnest about it.

In other words, despite your attempt to be neutral on the issue of prostitution, you’re operating within the same broken societal and cultural norms as the people who made prostitution illegal (wink-wink) in the first place. Under your conception of prostitution and sex, the “normal guy might consider seeing a prostitute” does indeed become the “creepy loser who can’t please women.”

Comment #223: Gracchus.  on  04/22  at  04:26 PM

I think it’s telling that a lot of you assume that NSA sex can be had for the asking, given the disparities that result when one sex (men) have been socialized to pursue it and the other (women) hasn’t.  What Wallace may have been trying to articulate with “game” is the idea that attraction follows certain patterns, and that getting a partner is far easier for the average woman than the average man, all else being equal.  The counter-argument is that desire is so individual that *everyone* eventually finds *someone*, and while this is true to a certain extent, getting there is exhausting.

Comment #224: Eurosabra  on  04/22  at  05:38 PM

I think it’s telling that a lot of you assume that NSA sex can be had for the asking, given the disparities that result when one sex (men) have been socialized to pursue it and the other (women) hasn’t

I make no such claim, nor do I think catgirl does. As I said above, opting out of those social norms makes things more difficult, but far from impossible. I’m not familiar with catgirl’s “hook-up culture” (which I always assumed was a conservative blanket perjorative for all NSA activity), or even whether it exists in even a vaguely formal sense. But after a while, one learns to identify like-minded souls.

Furthermore, men and women are equally damaged by these social norms. Most women are led to believe that seeking (or, heaven forfend, initiating) recreational sex makes them “sluts” or “whores.” And most men, probably guys exactly like Wallace, consequently give up on the idea of NSA sex with “nice girls” (i.e. the non-marginalised women I mentioned above) fairly quickly. Societal misery follows.

What Wallace may have been trying to articulate with “game” is the idea that attraction follows certain patterns, and that getting a partner is far easier for the average woman than the average man, all else being equal.

That assumes that a generic sexual partner is all the woman (or man) is looking for. There are other qualitative factors that are mixed in, and ignoring them takes one down Wallace’s sad conception of “good in bed” = belt notches/pick-up artistry/“game.”

The counter-argument is that desire is so individual that *everyone* eventually finds *someone*, and while this is true to a certain extent, getting there is exhausting.

No-one said it would be easy. But it would be a heckuva lot easier if people weren’t consistently shamed for trying to get there by the shortest mutually consensual path. Instead we’re still saddled with all sorts of Bronze Age tribal stigmas here in the developed world ca. 2009.

Comment #225: Gracchus.  on  04/22  at  05:56 PM

Heh.  Google “TylerDurden’s The Secret Society” for “game culture’s” take on the issue.  It reproduces a LOT of the standard memes of women as sex class, men as “no-sex class”, while still being in favor of consensual, ethical, negotiated sexual hedonism.  Most people here will find it horrific, with good reason.

I think Wallace’s “good in bed”=!“belt notches/pick-up artistry/game” contention is that some het men just aren’t good at negotiating attraction and sex, period.  While Thomas Miller’s “A Performance Model of Sex” in _Yes Means Yes_ is instructive, the essay does beg the question of the extreme specialization of the musical world.  It’s a poor metaphor when used by a pop aficionado, since it is entirely possible that one could play a rare instrument, in traditional style, such that one would find oneself auditioning for a very strict invite-only quartet with very small chance of getting in, which is how some straight men often feel about sex in modern America.

Comment #226: Eurosabra  on  04/22  at  07:07 PM

I think a lot, on this blog, people talk about male motivations and thought processes and they’re way off.

I’m shocked, shocked to find projection going on in this comments section.  (Or in any other, for that matter.)

All I have to do is go back to Amanda’s position- that she would still find patronization of prostitutes reprehensible EVEN IF the sex worker had total control of the situation and was fully consensual- and that tells me all I need to know.  John-shaming is the flipside of slut-shaming, but you’ll never get a feminist to admit that.  Instead, you get this:

That’s the conundrum of sex work—-a society that really respects female sexuality wouldn’t be one that created the demand for sex work.  For sex workers to get the safety and respect they deserve, we need to overcome these misogynist attitudes that create sex work.<blockquote>

The fact that sex work exists proves that we live in a misogynist society, because in a non-misogynist society there would be no sex work.  QED.  All you sad unfuckables, you disfigured cripples, the only reason you get any sex at all is because our misogynist society allows you to coerce women to give it to you by forcing them to accept your money; in a just society that respected female sexuality and agency, you’d be forced to live with not having sex at all (except for the occasional, rare mercy fuck a fortunate few might get).  Too bad for you, but that’s how things should be.  If there are unfuckable women who have to accept that, then by gum there should be unfuckable men who have to live with it, too!  Equal suffering for all!  That’s the feminist credo.

Really?

<blockquote>there are unmarginalised women who actually enjoy NSA sex

Really?  Where?  Is there one who looks like Jessica Simpson, wrote the definitive book on pleasing men sexually, and is totally into 6’ 330-lb hairy fat guys who get short of breath going up two flights of stairs?  Because that’s totally who I’m looking for.  Hook me up, my friend!  I’m Mr. NSA, here!

It don’t work like that.

Comment #227: liberalrob  on  04/22  at  08:01 PM

And yes, I forgot to preview again.  Razzlefrazzle.

Comment #228: liberalrob  on  04/22  at  08:06 PM

...some het men just aren’t good at negotiating attraction and sex, period.

Bingo.  And feminism’s answer is, “tough noogies.”

Comment #229: liberalrob  on  04/22  at  08:15 PM

Bingo.  And feminism’s answer is, “tough noogies.”

Well, yeah.  Because—and this may come as a shock to you—you are not actually entitled to sex just because you have a penis.  You can go out and try to find it, but there’s no law saying that a woman has to give it up to you. 

This is why rape is illegal, though it seems you’ll be pretty upset to find that out, too.

Comment #230: Mnemosyne  on  04/22  at  09:16 PM

Google “TylerDurden’s The Secret Society” for “game culture’s” take on the issue.

Ah, a Pick-Up Artist “Community.” Not surprising given the clueless Palahniuk reference. From what I’ve read, the PUAC approach exaggerates helpful traits to the point of inauthenticity and absurdity, in the sole service of belt-notching and misogyny. Sadly, even those grotesque techniques tend to work, because for women it’s a change from the usual sad-sacks who can’t clear even the low bar of unexaggerated helpful traits.

Those traits? Things like like: basic grooming (but not PUAC “peacocking”); self confidence and self knowledge (but not cockiness and gross superficiality); the ability to see the complementary sex as fellow human beings rather than aliens (totally opposite to the woman-hostile PUAC); the ability to hold an articulate conversation about something other than one’s personal obsessions (instead of cheap party tricks and mind games); and a genuinely friendly and open attitude (not the PUAC’s belt-notching goals).

That goes a lot further toward capturing someone’s interest than does going to bars or parties looking like a slob, mumbling about the boss or videogame scores into a woman’s cleavage, all the while wondering whether you’ll “score.” We all know that’s the common situation, and the blame can be laid squarely on our society’s messed up cultural mores.

But combine those basic traits that with an ability to spot people who don’t have them, and after a while it becomes easy to filter things down and not waste time. The results are far more satisfying than paying a hooker or escort, and a lot easier on the wallet and the ego.

I think Wallace’s “good in bed”=!“belt notches/pick-up artistry/game” contention is that some het men just aren’t good at negotiating attraction and sex, period.

My answer is the same as feminism’s (via LiberalRob): “tough noogies.” Learn. Improve. Practice. Adjust expectations. Understand there are no guarantees in life. Laugh at yourself. And exercise patience. It’s not rocket science.

If that fails or there are other limitations, sure, go to a hooker for a simulated experience (as long as it doesn’t involve surprise chokings and the like). Again, I’m pretty neutral on prostitution. As with pot, I think it should be de-criminalised, and perhaps limited to brothels and outcall and red light district. In a better world that doesn’t demonise NSA, maybe it would be seen as a good way for guys to practice on a surrogate, instead of as a place to “wham-bam-paid-you-ma’am.”

Comment #231: Gracchus.  on  04/22  at  09:33 PM

<blockquote>Really?  Where?  Is there one who looks like Jessica Simpson, wrote the definitive book on pleasing men sexually, and is totally into 6’ 330-lb hairy fat guys who get short of breath going up two flights of stairs?  Because that’s totally who I’m looking for.  Hook me up, my friend!  I’m Mr. NSA, here!

It don’t work like that.</blockquotes>

To answer your questionss:

Really? Yes. Even for a funny-lookin’ geek like me. Even for a 250+ lb, under 6’ bearded guy I used to know in NYC who was Mr. NSA because he made a decision at some point not to look and act like “Comic Book Guy” from The Simpsons.

Where? In a world where Jessica Simpson, Kama Sutra guru and sexual Lady Bountiful, isn’t the rock-bottom definition of “un-marginalised” woman, as it seems to be for guys like Wallace. Between Sister Jessica and skanky crack whores, there’s a whole, wonderful middle ground of attractive and interesting women who are looking to cut the BS.

The reason it doesn’t work as you describe is because most aspirant “Mr. NSA"s have a fantasy that Sister Jessica is exactly who they’re gonna meet when they visit what catgirl calls the hook-up culture.

Comment #232: Gracchus.  on  04/22  at  09:35 PM

There you go liberalrob.  You’ve now been labeled rape apologist, or rapist in waiting—I’m not quite sure which, and Nice Guy.  Thanks for playing.  Y’all come back now, y’hear?

Comment #233: MiddleageLiberal  on  04/22  at  09:39 PM

Again, not entitlement so much as a feeling that one’s subculture teaches nothing useful about negotiating sex, how to communicate that one is attracted, and unobtrusively and respectfully initiating courtship.  “Game” is a crude substitute, and cultures that supposedly teach those things well (Latin America, Romance Language-Europe, Russia) still have all the attendant ills of treating women as sex qua sex, in even more undiluted form than ours.

Comment #234: Eurosabra  on  04/22  at  09:45 PM

“Game” is a crude substitute, and cultures that supposedly teach those things well (Latin America, Romance Language-Europe, Russia) still have all the attendant ills of treating women as sex qua sex, in even more undiluted form than ours.

It’s not exactly difficult to retain the good traits while dumping the misogyny.

Comment #235: Gracchus.  on  04/22  at  09:49 PM

Speaking personally, I think I was born with a congenital lack of “game.”  I’ve just never been very successful at engaging in NSA sexual relationships—and not through lack of trying.  I just didn’t get it—either I always seemed to read the signals wrong, or I managed to project such a feeling of neediness and desperation that I scared off most women who might have been interested. 

I never visited a prostitute, though; the idea frightened me, and I knew on some level that I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if I ever did.  I just learned to accept that I would go an average of three years between relationships.  Masturbation is sex with someone I love, after all.  Still, it got mighty lonely there for a while.

On the up side, although I sucked at hooking up, I was reasonably good at staying in relationships.  Which is especially fortunate, given that this is what I really wanted all along.  smile

Comment #236: Captain Bathrobe  on  04/22  at  10:43 PM

You’ve now been labeled rape apologist, or rapist in waiting—I’m not quite sure which, and Nice Guy.

Yes, I can’t imagine why someone would be labeled a rape apologist for complaining that women have the audacity to decide who they want to have sex with instead of spreading their legs for any guy who comes along.  Silly me.

Comment #237: Mnemosyne  on  04/22  at  11:02 PM

There you go liberalrob.  You’ve now been labeled rape apologist, or rapist in waiting—I’m not quite sure which, and Nice Guy.  Thanks for playing.  Y’all come back now, y’hear?

Pfft, please, that happened a LONG time ago.  That used to bother me.  It’s now a matter of profound indifference to me what people want to pigeonhole me as.

Gracchus, you still didn’t answer my question.  Where?  Where are these easily-available NSA women?  I think they’re a myth.

Comment #238: liberalrob  on  04/22  at  11:11 PM

On the up side, although I sucked at hooking up, I was reasonably good at staying in relationships.  Which is especially fortunate, given that this is what I really wanted all along.

Weirdly, I think this is often a big part of the problem.  Guys are told pretty much from Day 1 that they’re horny pig-dogs who just want to get laid, while girls are told that they’ll only want sex if they’re in a relationship.  Given the vast range of human emotion and experience, there are some girls who just want to get laid and some guys who really only enjoy sex when they’re in a relationship.  Unfortunately, both of them are often forced to lie to themselves and others and hope that they can somehow get a vague semblance of what they want since all of society is pressing down on them to conform.  I had a (female) friend who was in a casual FWB relationship who discovered that the guy was actually in love with her from the beginning—he’d assumed that since they were sleeping together, she would automatically fall deeply in love with him and want to be together forever.  After all, she was a chick, right?  And all chicks want relationships, so he was going to be able to trick her into a relationship by pretending to just want sex. 

That didn’t end well.

Some people really like being in relationships and don’t like going out for random hookups, and their gender has very little to do with it.  Personally, I prefer being in a relationship, and fortunately I was able to find a guy who feels the same way.  Problems arise when people feel compelled to lie one way or the other.

Comment #239: Mnemosyne  on  04/22  at  11:14 PM

We get a chicken-and-egg problem because all of the elements you name are essential to becoming a good conversationalist, but they do not necessarily spark attraction in the opposite (since we are talking about heterosexuals) sex.  It would work for people who are already good at so-called “direct game”, which is the “I like you/Do you like me?” directness used by the naturally attractive, or played as a numbers game by those who are not.  And, really, you are talking about approaching thousands, if not hundreds of people, tens every week.  Button-pushing like classic pick-up seems a much more usable shorthand, although so few men are willing to commit to that that needy flailing while trying to be self-confident seems the most common method of all.

I think NSA is sub-and-counter-culture and venue-dependent and that gets discounted.  Your average goth club is going to be much more productive in that respect than a church social, and, really, conventional attractiveness is going to help more than anything else in any subculture and any venue.

Comment #240: Eurosabra  on  04/22  at  11:25 PM

I can’t imagine why someone would be labeled a rape apologist for complaining that women have the audacity to decide who they want to have sex with instead of spreading their legs for any guy who comes along.

Good thing I never said anything like that, then, isn’t it?  I believe the issue was prostitution…sex workers only spread their legs for guys with the green stuff, if I understand correctly.  And even more precisely, the point in question was Amanda’s opinion that ALL sex work by its very definition implies misogyny.  I find that categorical statement questionable.

Between Sister Jessica and skanky crack whores, there’s a whole, wonderful middle ground of attractive and interesting women who are looking to cut the BS.

Where?  I don’t know where to look.  That class was never on the schedule.

Comment #241: liberalrob  on  04/22  at  11:28 PM

Problems arise when people feel compelled to lie one way or the other.

Agreed.  There were a lot of times that I felt like less of a man because I wasn’t getting laid regularly.  The enlightened, pro-feminist part of my brain kept telling me otherwise, but it’s hard to counter-act all those societal messages that tell you that you’re a loser if you aren’t having regular sex.  Also, there were many, many times that I just felt lonely and horny.

Oh well.  I’m married to a wonderful woman now, so problem solved.  We both periodically thank our lucky stars that we are out of the dating scene.  Good-bye to all that, hope to never go back.

Comment #242: Captain Bathrobe  on  04/22  at  11:40 PM

Good thing I never said anything like that, then, isn’t it?

Let’s take a look back at what you did say, shall we?

Is there one who looks like Jessica Simpson, wrote the definitive book on pleasing men sexually, and is totally into 6’ 330-lb hairy fat guys who get short of breath going up two flights of stairs?  Because that’s totally who I’m looking for.  Hook me up, my friend!  I’m Mr. NSA, here!

In other words, you’re entitled to have sex with any woman you want, up to and including Jessica Simpson, regardless of what the woman in question might actually want.  If you can’t get the woman you want through normal means, you should be able to go out and buy a couple of hours from a woman who wouldn’t give you the time of day under normal circumstances with no social approbation whatsoever.  And it’s all because you deserve to have sex with an incredibly attractive woman whenever you want and not have to settle for someone with average looks.  Not because you have anything special to offer, but because you’re a guy, and it’s your birthright as a male to get anything you want whenever you want it.

Seriously, this is the most common and dull male entitlement of all time:  thinking that hot chicks should throw themselves at you because you’re a man and they should be grateful for any and all male attention they get, even when they don’t actually want the attention.

Comment #243: Mnemosyne  on  04/23  at  12:07 AM

Gracchus, you still didn’t answer my question.  Where?  Where are these easily-available NSA women?  I think they’re a myth.

I can only speak from my experience, but with one caveat (which I’ve stated several times): “easily-available” is not part of the deal (at least, not for me, and I’d wager for most men). Women are not going to throw themselves at you, and you don’t get to have sex with every woman you chat up. That, my friend, is life. If you want to believe you’re less of a man because of it, then you’ve invested one of society’s most damaging norms, and your ROI will be lots of useless unhappiness.

It takes the pleasant work of getting to know someone to get to the point of NSA sex. It can take an hour, it can take days, it can take weeks of groundwork—by both parties. NSA isn’t always about instant gratification; as you may gather form the acronym, the lack of strings is the only criteria.

As to where can someone meet people for NSA sex? Parties, co-workers, classmates, on-line, on holiday, clients’ offices, conferences, weddings, etc. In other words, just about anywhere where you can strike up a casual conversation. Not that I’ve been doing that for several years now, but that was my personal experience in the past (granted, I’ve always been an urban boy, which affords greater opportunities).

Oh yeah, I forgot one other place: the secret super-secret club that only guys like me know about. I’d assume you know I’m kidding about that one, but your “hook-me-up” question seemed semi-serious. Just to be clear, as far as I know the “hook up culture” isn’t a formal club with secret handshakes, it’s just something people do. It seems mysterious and mythical because society pretends it’s a sahmeful anomaly. It’s not.

And really, LiberalRob, it’s not like there aren’t emotionally mature, self-confident, independent single women out there who like sex without entanglements, just as there exist men like Captain Bathrobe who enjoy those entanglements. All of which is fine, as long as we’re not lying to others or ourselves about our intentions or potential.

But feel free to keep blaming feminists and superficial bitches—I hear the ladies who are into good, healthy NSA sex (not to mention those who are into good, healthy LTRs) love that kind of talk.

Comment #244: Gracchus.  on  04/23  at  01:48 AM

Um, if she’s “totally into 6’ 330lb hairy fat guys who get short of breath going up two flights of stairs”, then she has, at minimum, a preference, and in more accentuated form, a kink or a fetish.  I imagine someone who looked like JS might have a size fetish, or (more dangerously, perhaps) an exercise or respiratory impairment fetish.  But in an overt sense, her preference/agency is clearly a part of the equation, since “what he has to offer” is height, size, and a certain ability status, which could trigger a whole range of possible responses, from a patriarchy-compliant “Big hairy men make me feel warm, fuzzy, and protected” to “I need to fuss over someone differently-abled.”  Or even a simple desire for those traits without an attendant emotional response more conscious than arousal.  And all of that would be her preference, her choice, and up to him to decide Yay or Nay upon discerning her preference(s) and her motivation.  I think the hidden complaint is that everyone feels like an appearance outlier and that sexuality exists for the benefit of the conventionally beautiful/handsome.  An arch sense of the rarity of this combination of qualities and preferences in a partner is what drives the “Point ‘er out to me, really, I’m there!”  Perhaps a perception of being the bearer of a body or masculinity that is not conventional in a romantic marketplace dominated by the conventional intrudes but not to the point of self-pity.

Comment #245: Eurosabra  on  04/23  at  01:50 AM

We get a chicken-and-egg problem because all of the elements you name are essential to becoming a good conversationalist, but they do not necessarily spark attraction in the opposite (since we are talking about heterosexuals) sex.

No, they don’t necessarily spark attraction. Understanding that basic fact (or as Mnem put it, not being so bloody entitled) is one of the things that makes trying to arrange an NSA assignation easier, and that makes getting turned down for one a civilised exchange instead of a slap in the face.

That said, the absence of those elements do a heckuva lot to get the opposite reaction (which I believe is “ewwwww”). And none of them require any particular magic talent or skill.

For example, I loathe small talk and am consequently pretty horrible at it. Which is why I try to get past it as quickly as possible to some substantive topic sooner rather than later. You never know where a good conversation with an attractive woman might lead—maybe to sex, maybe to a good conversation. I consider neither outcome a disappointment.

It would work for people who are already good at so-called “direct game”, which is the “I like you/Do you like me?” directness used by the naturally attractive, or played as a numbers game by those who are not.  And, really, you are talking about approaching thousands, if not hundreds of people, tens every week.

Not being underwear model material, I’d put myself in the second category, except for the fact that (again) I don’t consider it a belt-notching numbers game (and never really did). That’s not what NSA is about when done right.

[As noted, these days I’m more into the FWB variety, but it’s NSA none-the-less, and society finds way of letting you know it]

I think NSA is sub-and-counter-culture and venue-dependent and that gets discounted.  Your average goth club is going to be much more productive in that respect than a church social, and, really, conventional attractiveness is going to help more than anything else in any subculture and any venue.

You’d be surprised about venue—the ones that didn’t work for me were clubs and bars, mainly because I become just one of dozens of guys hitting on a given girl. Plus, it’s no place to have an introductory conversation. And looking back, most of the girls I’ve hooked up with presented themselves in public as fairly straight-laced, “boring” professionals—doctors, lawyers, bankers, IT types, etc.

Now I absolutely agree about conventional attractiveness helping enormously, but what are you gonna do? Basic (and I mean basic) grooming can go a surprisingly long way, and in any case not expecting physical perfection is a two-way street.

Anyhow, too much navel-gazing in this thread. Participating in NSA sex is fun—analysing it, not so much.

Comment #246: Gracchus.  on  04/23  at  01:51 AM

If you believe that anyone, anyone in the world, owes you access to their body, then yeah you belong in the same category with everyone else who believes that someone is obliged to fuck them.  And it sounds like the folks in this thread who do own that, which is some kind of integrity.

I suppose there could be women who believe these things and act this way, but I haven’t met any.

Comment #247: kaninchen  on  04/23  at  01:58 AM

In other words, you’re entitled to have sex with any woman you want, up to and including Jessica Simpson

No, in fact, in other words these women I’m supposed to have a shot at on the open market and have a mutually-satisfying relationship with don’t fucking exist, is the point I’m making.  Everyone talks a good game; “oh, there’s someone out there for you, you just need to look harder/work harder/stay positive and it’ll all work out, because one day, you’ll find her.”  It’s all BS.  I’m 42 and Lady Godiva ain’t riding over that hill.

And it’s all because you deserve to have sex with an incredibly attractive woman whenever you want and not have to settle for someone with average looks.  Not because you have anything special to offer, but because you’re a guy, and it’s your birthright as a male to get anything you want whenever you want it.

No, it’s all because having sex with an incredibly attractive woman whenever I want is impossible through any other means than paying for it.  Not that it’s my birthright as a male, but that it’s like a vacation to the Pyramids.  I can buy a trip to the Pyramids and achieve a lifelong desire, but I can’t buy an hour with a beautiful woman who offers it to me willingly on that basis?  I can purchase recreational travel, but in feminist utopia I can’t purchase recreational sex?

I really don’t get it.  I don’t see the ethical, moral, or philosophical difference.

Oh, and what’s this bit about not having “something special to offer” and “not having to settle for someone with average looks?”  Are you saying that because the Jessica Simpson types are out of my league, I should just settle for someone as physically disadvantaged as I am?  Is that it?  I should lower my standards?  And if I don’t, it’s misogyny?  That’s a compelling persuasive argument; everyone should just “settle.”  Sign me up for that.

Parties, co-workers, classmates, on-line, on holiday, clients’ offices, conferences, weddings, etc. In other words, just about anywhere where you can strike up a casual conversation.

None of those things will work for me, Gracchus, unfortunately.  There are no parties to go to.  My co-workers are all married with families of their own.  My classmates are all scattered to the winds and I haven’t talked to any of them in years (don’t even know where they live).  Online is all kids.  On holiday is all guys (no women at Strat-o-matic baseball tournaments).  I don’t go to clients’ offices, I’m an in-house computer programmer.  My company doesn’t send me to conferences.  No weddings to go to (all co-workers and friends are already married).  And I’m so physically “unconventional” to use Eurosabra’s euphemism that I’m sure it would be pointless anyway.  So like someone with a preexisting condition trying to get health insurance, I should just resign myself to a life of loneliness, with no physical contact whatsoever, because to pay for sex is misogynist?  Is that supposed to be an attractive argument for me to support feminism?  (Which I largely do, just not on this point.)

If you believe that anyone, anyone in the world, owes you access to their body, then yeah you belong in the same category with everyone else who believes that someone is obliged to fuck them.

I don’t believe that.  I don’t believe I’m owed anything.  But I sure as hell think I should have the ability to buy something offered by a willing seller.

Comment #248: liberalrob  on  04/23  at  03:07 AM

And we’re back to women as symbolically equivalent to inanimate objects.  Great going, liberalrob.

Comment #249: history_mom  on  04/23  at  03:28 AM

But feel free to keep blaming feminists and superficial bitches

I don’t blame them for anything.  Feminists make good points about inequality and skewed power relationships.  I’m saying that in the real world, merely legislating all of that out of existence won’t address all the core issues underlying prostitution from my point of view.  Amanda (apparently) sees prostitution as entirely a power game where men pay for sex because women are thereby forced to have sex with them, and once you eliminate that power game then prostitution will go away because that’s the only reason men pay for sex.  That’s false, it’s only one reason men pay for sex.  It may be why Eliot Spitzer pays for sex, but it’s not why other men pay for sex.

Comment #250: liberalrob  on  04/23  at  03:35 AM

Why does this happen so often? Women posit a real, immediate dilema. Dudes hijack the discussion, to argue a philosophical point that nobody questioned. Dudes argue ad nauseum, ignoring real world examples in pursuit of a fictional ideal. Women become irritated that dudes are being assholes. Dudes argue the point into the ground. 

Why!?

Comment #251: banisteriopsis  on  04/23  at  05:24 AM

So, liberalrob, you’re not a dom? Because that seems to be your major objection; somebody came too close to your fetish, and you got all defensive about it. I can’t think of another reason why you’d be all over this thread fighting with people about “linear” sexuality.

Or are you just arguing a philosophical point? WTF dude. How is Eliot Spitzer not a fucking asshole?

Comment #252: banisteriopsis  on  04/23  at  05:41 AM

None of those things will work for me, Gracchus, unfortunately.

Those were examples—my point was not to give you a checklist, the point was to say there are lots of opportunities. But you have to get out there if NSA (or a LTR, or whatever) is what you want. Do you even know what you want? That’s a rhetorical question, but come on, smart guy, give it some thought. And look around you.

So like someone with a preexisting condition trying to get health insurance, I should just resign myself to a life of loneliness, with no physical contact whatsoever, because to pay for sex is misogynist?  Is that supposed to be an attractive argument for me to support feminism?

I never said “to pay for sex is misogynist”—I said it’s proably an unsatisfying alternative to NSA (especially if, per Wallace, you’re only looking for “breasts and a vagina” instead of a whole person). The industry is also riddled with a lot of coercion. But If you feel things are that hopeless, go for it. Just don’t be a dickhead about it like Spitzer—pay for a professional, and treat her like one. Maybe try a sexual surrogate.

Oh, and if you’ve made a habit of mocking prostitutes or (like Spitzer with his prosecutions) pretending you’re somehow a more moral person, then you’re a hypocrite for going.

This is not about you supporting feminism, this is about your blaming feminism for your woes. Your woes have to do with your semi-shut-in status and your low self-esteem, not feminism.

I don’t blame them for anything.

BS. You whinge about not having “game,” and then say cruel, cold feminism’s answer is “tough noogies.” Some feminists oppose prostitution, some don’t. But it’s not feminism that’s answering, it’s people of both genders who understand you’re not owed access to other people’s bodies.

Comment #253: Gracchus.  on  04/23  at  09:35 AM

“Why does this happen so often? Women posit a real, immediate dilema. Dudes hijack the discussion, to argue a philosophical point that nobody questioned. Dudes argue ad nauseum, ignoring real world examples in pursuit of a fictional ideal. Women become irritated that dudes are being assholes. Dudes argue the point into the ground.

Why!? “

Because if we’re not talking about THEM and THEIR PROBLEMS, then we’re not talking about anything important.  And some of them are compelled to fix that for us.  Repeatedly.  See, who cares about the actual woman involved - it’s all about the penis all the time. Submit or be forced to.  Those are out options to dude nation, apparently.

Comment #254: Gypsy Lee  on  04/23  at  10:00 AM

I should just settle for someone as physically disadvantaged as I am?  Is that it?  I should lower my standards?  And if I don’t, it’s misogyny?  That’s a compelling persuasive argument; everyone should just “settle.” Sign me up for that.

No, it’s misogyny to treat women as objects to be purchased (as opposed to professionals offering a service).

You’re an in-house programmer. Imagine (or maybe recall) that one of the managers at your firm decides to outsource your job overseas and lay you off without notice—would you complain? After all, the firm is having hard times, has no other choices. And hey, you overhear the boss saying, you’re just a cog—typing fingers and a CS degree. If Wallace were your employer, that’s how he’d view you.

And settling? Yeah, not everyone is going to be into you, but that doesn’t mean you’re obliged to have sex only with people who you don’t find attractive and/or sexy.

The only thing that your comments have told me is that the source of your problem is not women or feminism—it’s your own lack of self-esteem, and the societal norms that ground it down and made even the desperate “alternative” it winkingly allows illegal.

Comment #255: Gracchus.  on  04/23  at  10:07 AM

1. You characterise prostitutes as “breasts and a vagina” (i.e. sexual objects and sperm depositories without thought or agency)

2. The only sort of prostitutes you can conceive of either Pretty Woman/Happy Hooker fantasy streetwalkers, or skanky crackheads and employees of cheap brothels (the second, reality-based group, being people without many options who are easily marginalised and used, as opposed to professionals who get into the business for a variety of reasons)

3. You equate the ability to get someone into bed, by whatever means (“game”), with being good in bed (i.e. the only thing that counts in sex is that the man gets off—all the rest is window dressing)

4. You can’t seem to grasp catgirl’s concept that there are unmarginalised women who actually enjoy NSA sex—for free or otherwise (i.e. it’s either the Madonna or the Whore for you).

All of that put together is creepy in and of itself. What pushes it into creepy overdrive is that you’re so earnest about it.

In other words, despite your attempt to be neutral on the issue of prostitution, you’re operating within the same broken societal and cultural norms as the people who made prostitution illegal (wink-wink) in the first place. Under your conception of prostitution and sex, the “normal guy might consider seeing a prostitute” does indeed become the “creepy loser who can’t please women.”

 

I think you are programmed to make certain arguments, so you see evidence of those arguments when they’re not there.  I’m saying small, isolated things, separated from each other, in response to different points.  To match your points:

1.  From the perspective of the john, going to a prostitute is masturbatory.  Guys have a tendency to ejaculate every day, with or without a woman.  Some guys will decide that for $60, masturbation with a woman is superior to masturbating alone.  I agree, this is creepy.  It objectifies women.  But you spin it into scenarios of guys who want to dominate the vulnerable, and who get off on the gap in power, when a lot of the times it’s simply a guy who thinks easy sex is worth $60.

2.  My point about skanky crackheads was that, perhaps, the absence of a viable market of male prostitutes available for women might have more to do with the demand side than the supply side.  The point was obviously missed, and maybe not well made.  But it has nothing to do with my ability to conceive of a wide universe of prostitutes.  In fashioning my arguments, I tend to consider Asian women who work in massage parlors, 22 year old co-eds in NYC who want $3,000 purses and $1,200 sunglasses, the women who advertise in the back of indy newspapers, poor women in Mexican border towns who work in brothels, prostitutes in Amsterdam’s red light district, and the women I met at a brothel near Reno.  The skanky crackheads, to me, are a whole other animal, and aren’t really included in what I would consider an acceptable prostitution model.  Although it’s similar to the Mexican prostitutes.  I’d differentiate between “I’m a prostitute because it pays better than my other options” and “I’m a prostitute because it’s my only option”.

3.  Catgirl equated the ability to get someone in bed with being good in bed.  I disagreed with that.

4.  It’s not that I can’t conceive that women available for NSA relationships exist.  I disagree with catgirl’s assertion that they’re so widely available that anyone who wants one of these relationships can have one as long as they are hygienic and good in bed.

Comment #256: Wallace  on  04/23  at  11:47 AM

The following words were brought to you by rage.

In a world with perfect equality among men and women and people who are neither, or both, or some mixture in between, where women’s sexuality was just as well respected and accepted as men’s sexuality, where selling sex was just another contract between equals, there might not be anything morally wrong with it.

In this world, where women’s sexuality is used as a weapon to damage and destroy them, where the large majority of women who sell sex are exploited and coerced and raped, where a man can make a name for himself by putting sex workers in prison while using the services of those same women, where it is assumed that sex workers cannot be raped because, duh, they’re sex workers, where sex workers are much more likely to be arrested than the men buying sex are, prostitution is definitely wrong.  WHY IS THIS DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND FOR YOU?

Oh, right, ‘cos bitches ain’t shit.  Because feminists (of any gender) are working to dismantle the rape culture, which would make it harder for you to get laid because holy shit the other person should be an enthusiastic participant.

You disgust me.  I’m sure you’d all like to believe that you think that women are more than a warm wet fuckhole with some seriously annoying talking parts around it, but your assumptions make it pretty clear that you don’t.

Which I’m sure will just reinforce your belief that it’s feminists’ fault you don’t have a warm wet fuckhole of your very own.  But look you can!  Just buy a Fleshlight and warm your lube in the microwave.  You can get your rocks off and throw it on the floor afterwards and it will never, ever, complain about anything you do or say.

***

I’ve been trying to not engage MiddleAgeLiberal anywhere, ‘cos, y’know, that shrill strident castrating bitch thing, but I want to address one thing he said:

I am repeatedly amused by your biases towards men who would even consider patronizing consensual sex workers, based apparently on no empirical evidence except occasional reviews of escort review sites.  That’s rather like judging a population of radio talk show listeners based on the people who call in.  But I read a couple of them sometimes and don’t reach the same conclusions about them at all, since there seems to be just as much an expressed desire to give their paid partners orgasms as there is among civilians.  [Emphasis added.]

This expressed desire has nothing to do with being interested in a woman’s pleasure.  This desire is all about keeping score with other men, to boast about their sexual prowess.  Even granted, arguendo, that these men are telling the truth about their experiences with sex workers, how the hell would they know if the worker’s orgasm is real or faked?

And to get personal, MiddleAgeLiberal, I find it revolting though not at all surprising, that you read these sites.  Sometimes.

Comment #257: kaninchen  on  04/23  at  12:37 PM

1.  From the perspective of the john, going to a prostitute is masturbatory.

That would be your programmed assumption. In counterpoint, Dan Savage often describes a whole subset of prostitutes that offer a “girlfriend experience,” so I’d imagine there’s some demand out there for more than a masturbatory experience with an object.

But you spin it into scenarios of guys who want to dominate the vulnerable, and who get off on the gap in power, when a lot of the times it’s simply a guy who thinks easy sex is worth $60

No, others spun it that way. I’d agree with them that many, if not most, johns who subscribe to your programmed assumption and also have power-trip kinks would take advantage of the situation. Spitzer, with his surprise choking, is an example.

2.  My point about skanky crackheads was that, perhaps, the absence of a viable market of male prostitutes available for women might have more to do with the demand side than the supply side.

Indeed. That doesn’t mean the demand doesn’t exist, or—more to the point—that women, unlike men, might simply prefer to patronise gigolos who aren’t skanky crackheads. The bulk of demand for male prositutes seems to be gay men, but they service women, too—probably independent women with money and taste.

In fashioning my arguments, I tend to consider Asian women who work in massage parlors, 22 year old co-eds in NYC who want $3,000 purses and $1,200 sunglasses, the women who advertise in the back of indy newspapers, poor women in Mexican border towns who work in brothels, prostitutes in Amsterdam’s red light district, and the women I met at a brothel near Reno.

Again, this is part of the problem: do you really think that all of these types of prostitutes have anything close to equal options in life, or equal choice of customers? (I saw you backtrack on the Mexican prostitutes, but I’m sure a similar situation holds true for massage parlour girls). I also notice you left out professional escort services like the one Spitzer used, where there seem to be standards expected of the johns as well as the prostitute—telling, that.

3.  Catgirl equated the ability to get someone in bed with being good in bed.  I disagreed with that.

No, you were the one who initially stated that “game” is a requirement for getting NSA sex:

First, I think there are lots and lots of guys who do not have the game to line up the kind of NSA sexual arrangement you’re talking about.

I disagreed with both you and catgirl, although I think catgirl’s point was more about the total lack of basic self-confidence that so many men evince being a signifier of a lack of sexual confidence when it comes time to get it on. But you don’t find out if someone’s good in bed until you get in bed with them—carts, horses, etc.

4.  It’s not that I can’t conceive that women available for NSA relationships exist.  I disagree with catgirl’s assertion that they’re so widely available that anyone who wants one of these relationships can have one as long as they are hygienic and good in bed.

Neither she, nor I, were asserting that those were all one has to have to get NSA sex. The bar is low, but not that low—especially since most people aren’t clairvoyants.

Comment #258: Gracchus.  on  04/23  at  12:41 PM

I’ve been trying to not engage MiddleAgeLiberal anywhere, ‘cos, y’know, that shrill strident castrating bitch thing

I won’t engage him (except in mockery) until he changes his name to MiddleAgeLibertarian. That’s what he is, and that’s the attitude he evinces toward sex: it’s all economic transactions (between poor horny slaves to the male libido and greedy bitches).

Comment #259: Gracchus.  on  04/23  at  12:46 PM

I can’t think of another reason why you’d be all over this thread fighting with people about “linear” sexuality.

I wasn’t the one talking about “linear sexuality” whatever that is.

How is Eliot Spitzer not a fucking asshole?

The evidence appears to be that he is.  And it’s too bad, because he did a lot of really great things as a public servant.  Just not this.  His particular fetish crosses a line that most people are not willing to forgive him for crossing (unlike Bill Clinton).

And we’re back to women as symbolically equivalent to inanimate objects.

No, history_mom, we’re talking about them as service providers.  It’s the experience, not the physical circumstances.  Or do you have the view that human sexuality is this mystical sacred thing that only has meaning in the context of two people who sincerely love each other?  Is sex something so completely unique that it can’t be evaluated in any other context?

This is not about you supporting feminism, this is about your blaming feminism for your woes

I repeat, I don’t blame feminism for my woes.  But feminism doesn’t offer me any solutions, either, and seems to want to take one possible outlet away.  It’s a good thing to not have women be forced into prostitution, I don’t want that.  And maybe no woman would choose to go into that line of business absent some kind of coercion; I’m open to that argument.  But if they do freely choose it, I don’t see how it’s misogyny for someone to patronize it. 

Is this another of those “it’s not about you” arguments?

Comment #260: liberalrob  on  04/23  at  12:58 PM

I repeat, I don’t blame feminism for my woes.

Sure. But wahhhhh: “feminism’s answer [to my lack of “game”] is, “tough noogies.” That’s your framing, not mine.

But feminism doesn’t offer me any solutions,

Actually it does: stop regarding women as strange alien beings, and start looking at them as fellow human beings with equal agency. That’s about as basic a message as the various brands of feminism share, and whatever you’re looking for it’s likely to work a lot better than your current attitude.

seems to want to take one possible outlet away.

Some feminists—not me, but some. And anyhow, it’s good old-fashioned patriarchal social mores that both winkingly encourage certain types of prostitution as a bleeder valve for the sexual frustration it causes, while also ensuring that it’s illegal and difficult to access across the board (see also the “War on (certain) Drug( User)s”).

Comment #261: Gracchus.  on  04/23  at  01:11 PM

I think you are programmed to make certain arguments, so you see evidence of those arguments when they’re not there.

5. You make incredibly asinine statements like suggesting that feminists and/or women are “programmed to make certain arguments”. WTF dude, really? Nah, we couldn’t POSSIBLY be disagreeing with your awesomeness because critical thinking leads us to it, we must just be parroting feminist talking points! Really?

Comment #262: kristin  on  04/23  at  06:24 PM

Just when I thought my interest in this thread was gone I get called out twice. 

I’ve been trying to not engage MiddleAgeLiberal anywhere, ‘cos, y’know, that shrill strident castrating bitch thing

I’ve never called you any such thing, or even thought it.  You present an extraordinarily angry persona on this board, but I never attributed it to your gender.  You have a marked intolerance toward different views and aren’t shy about slinging invective toward people who espouse them.  A small window of why might be this little snippet you posted following the Supreme Court argument over the strip search:

Changing in locker rooms is a problem for me personally as that’s where I got beat up the most when I was in school.

But on to the substance of your gripe with me on this point:

“ . . .  there seems to be just as much an expressed desire to give their paid partners orgasms as there is among civilians.” 
This expressed desire has nothing to do with being interested in a woman’s pleasure.  This desire is all about keeping score with other men, to boast about their sexual prowess.

 
Upon what basis can you say that?  Since you find it “revolting” for anyone who ever reads escort review boards (except Amanda and Dan Savage, who I suppose you give a pass to because of their ideological purity), how do you know what they write and how do you know what their motives are for writing?  Amanda insists (because this is not the first thread she’s maintained the position) that the men who go to even the gfe (cf Gracchus at 11:41) escorts do so because they want the coerced sex experience and she maintains that belief without any apparent evidence behind it.  Sounds like a tenet of faith.  I prefer empirically based opinions, and usually I find her opinions empirically based.  Just not in this area.

Even granted, arguendo, that these men are telling the truth about their experiences with sex workers, how the hell would they know if the worker’s orgasm is real or faked?


Many of them say they can tell, but that’s beside the point.  Amanda’s and others’ view apparently is that such men don’t care about the pleasure of their paid partners.  If the only evidence of that is the escort review boards, then as an occasional reader of them I call b.s., but in a congenial way I hope.

And to get personal, MiddleAgeLiberal, I find it revolting though not at all surprising, that you read these sites.  Sometimes.

But you don’t find it revolting that Amanda or Dan Savage read them?  I guess the difference is that for a few posts in threads weeks ago I committed the ultimate act of disrespect to you by abbreviating your handle.

I won’t engage him (except in mockery) until he changes his name to MiddleAgeLibertarian. That’s what he is, and that’s the attitude he evinces toward sex: it’s all economic transactions (between poor horny slaves to the male libido and greedy bitches).
Gracchus on 04/23 at 11:46 AM

Then I suppose you will be disappointed that I agree with just about everything you’ve posted on this thread, at least in your responses to liberalrob (I didn’t go back and reread above that).  My attitude toward the independent escort subset of prostitution does not extend to the rest of my views toward sex.  I’m sorry you see it otherwise and I don’t quite know why you do.  I certainly don’t generalize your total attitudes towards sex from your apparent toleration of some forms of prostitution.

Whether the term “liberal” is accurate to me is debatable, I suppose.  I can’t be libertarian because I favored Obama’s modest tax increase plan and I believe some government involvement in public safety (health-wise and financial institution-wise) is desirable.  I do believe that individual freedom and ideological tolerance are important values and are at the core of modern liberalism.  I am being increasingly convinced that many if not most “progressives” do not have a high regard for those values.

Comment #263: MiddleageLiberal  on  04/23  at  07:39 PM

Thanks ever so much for clearing all that up for me. You’re very kind.

Comment #264: kaninchen  on  04/23  at  09:48 PM
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