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Next entry: You Would Like Some Sauce With That Previous entry: Friday Genius Ten “New Wave Booty Shaking Weakness” Edition

Police States: They’re What’s For Dinner

imageHerring v. United States was a landmark case for exclusionary rule jurisprudence.  Short version, a man went to get his truck out of the impound lot, and an old warrant that should have been deleted from the system popped up.  That led to a search of his truck and his person and the discovery of an illegal firearm and methamphetamines, for which Herring was sentenced to prison. 

The Supreme Court found, 5-4, that the exclusionary rule (certain evidence should be excluded from prosecution because of the manner in which it was obtained) didn’t apply in this case.  It’s problematic for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it encourages law enforcement to make these types of errors as excuses to intrude into anyone’s life - a single warrant could “accidentally” be used to turn the rest of your life into random police searches. 

Jonah Goldberg weighs in on the decision in his weekly column, and as you might expect from the man who wrote a four hundred page treatise on the evils of totalitarianism, he totally thinks this decision was the best thing EVAR, and fuck anyone who disagrees. 

Meanwhile, some of my libertarian friends are vexed by this. Glenn Reynolds (the 800-pound gorilla blogger known as Instapundit) writes in the New York Post that police shouldn’t be exempt from following the law like everyone else. Reynolds understands the court’s reasoning: “Why punish the police by letting a guilty man go free when they just made a simple mistake?” But, he reasons, ignorance is no excuse for John Q. Public, so why should it be one for Johnny Law? “Being a ‘public servant,’ apparently, means being free to make the kind of mistakes that the rest of us aren’t allowed,” writes Reynolds.

I’ve never understood this argument.

To be fair, you’ve spent your career not understanding many, many things.

Now, I agree that cops should follow the law just like everyone else. I just don’t understand how Reynolds and so many others get from there to the idea that punishing cops requires rewarding people like Herring. According to the exclusionary rule, a cop who breaks the rules to arrest a serial child rapist should be “punished” by having the rapist released back into the general public. (Or as Benjamin Cordozo put it in 1926 when he was a New York state judge, “The criminal is to go free because the constable has blundered.”)

See, the thing you’re describing?  It’s not what anyone’s saying.

  The cop isn’t really punished for the type of error in this case - they aren’t docked pay, they aren’t sent to prison instead of the accused, they aren’t fined, they aren’t fired.  The case just doesn’t go forward.  The criminal also isn’t rewarded - they’re simply left in the same state they were before.  I’m wondering what definable “reward” stems from not being arrested for guns and meth, but again, asking Jonah to justify his thoughts is like asking someone dumb to not do something dumb. 

Also, it’s Cardozo, not Cordozo.  He’s only one of the most famous Supreme Court justices in our nation’s history, so it’s understandable why you would make this mistake, as he’s not on the back of any boxes of cereal.  Usually.  Although those “Justice for All” toys they put in Rice Krispies a few years back were amaaaazing.

But the officer, while frustrated, isn’t really punished. The people punished are the subsequent victims and their families.

Oh, so you said the previous thing for…no reason?  Good, good.

Let’s think about this.  We have to use any and all evidence we can get, no matter how it’s gotten, to protect future unspecified victims against future unspecified acts that may or may not happen.  Ergo, the police should be able to use virtually anything they find for any reason whatsoever so long as it results in Bad People being punished.  To do any less results in a less safe society, which is all bad and stuff.  This wouldn’t be a problem, except in those incredibly and indescribably rare cases where the police power results in abusive intrusion into people’s lives based on the most threadbare of excuses labeled as “mistakes”.  Of course, we can always depend on the government to use proper restraint in its exercise of expansive powers, so let’s go get gelato.

Reynolds and others say police should be subject to the same laws as other citizens and public servants. I agree. But if a husband runs a red light to get his pregnant wife to the hospital, she’s not turned away because he broke the law. Or, imagine if a health inspector had the wrong address on his paperwork and rummaged around the wrong restaurant, only to find a roach and vermin infestation the likes of which are rarely seen outside of an Indiana Jones movie. According to the logic of the exclusionary rule, the public should keep eating roach burgers and rat droppings because the eatery was illegitimately searched. That’s cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

There’s a reason that Goldberg’s analogies don’t work, and it’s not just because he’s a terrible and unimaginative writer who could write a one-page essay on “What Jonah Goldberg Did This Summer” that focused on sledding and Christmas trees. 

The police have a special power that allows them to step into our lives, collect evidence and accuse us of committing offenses the punishment for which could deprive us of liberty and even life.  We put limits on that power because nobody should be deprived of life or liberty without a very good and very necessary reason.  The same justification for allowing the wife to receive medical care would dictate that we don’t justify locking people up based on any “mistake” that allows an officer to peek wherever they want.  And, uh, restaurants are open to the public.  My car is not.  Jesus.

One answer—really the only answer—you hear about why we should treat criminals with more respect is that it’s the only way to make government respect the rights of the innocent. I’m all for respecting the rights of the innocent, and I think police should be required to follow strict rules, have warrants and all the rest.

Jonah Goldberg, 1963: “I’m all for “equal treatment” of the Negro race, and I don’t think they should have to get sprayed by fire hoses or bitten by dogs and all that rigamarole.”

But I don’t see why cops who break the rules intentionally or unintentionally should be “punished” by having objectively guilty criminals let loose on society.

Jonah Goldberg, 1963: “Buuuuuuut, if they just happen to be riding in the wrong area of the bus, one seat is as good as another, and they shouldn’t complain.”

I don’t think zookeepers should abuse their animals, but nor do I think a zookeeper’s abused polar bear should be set free in Midtown Manhattan.

Polar bears: nature’s frosty criminals. 

If Special Forces troops break the rules while capturing Osama bin Laden, I don’t see why that should require letting bin Laden go and giving him a do-over.

Methheads: nature’s bin Ladens. 

If zookeepers, soldiers or cops break the rules, punish them—criminally, civilly or administratively. But don’t reward the scum of the earth with a get-out-of-jail-free card, particularly when that will result in truly innocent people being punished. Criminals didn’t do anything right just because the cops did something wrong.

So, the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution, guaranteeing due process in all matters of justice before the courts, so that we could give the people administrating justice mulligans every time they fuck up and just happen to find evidence of wrongdoing when they had no relevant reason to find said evidence.  I can’t wait until the Sheriff’s Department “accidentally” finds Jonah’s rare stash of illegally imported Bolivian Twinkies because they “accidentally” thought they had proper clearance to investigate his home. 

 

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Posted by Jesse Taylor on 04:25 PM • (70) Comments

Conan O’Brien?

Comment #1: Auguste  on  01/16  at  04:30 PM

Would it make any difference if it were a murder uncovered or kidnapping?

Comment #2: Constantine  on  01/16  at  04:33 PM

So I guess that means that Jonah Goldberg would be in favor of expanding § 1983 suits for violation of civil rights (especially since this case, being ordinary negligence, doe snot qualify and is immunized under most, if not all, state statutes)? No? What a surprise…

Comment #3: Nate W.  on  01/16  at  04:41 PM

It’s not a BAD argument, per se. I disagree with it, but there’s a certain logic to it. However it’s not made in good faith. At all.

If I were to argue this, I’d argue that automatically excluding evidence based upon a non-malicious error might not serve the greater justice. However, I’d be following that up with using my bully pulpit to push for stronger direct punitive action against authorities who violate the freedom and privacy of fellow citizens.

Comment #4: Karmakin  on  01/16  at  04:41 PM

Wow. Once again I am surprised out just how far off base Goldberg can be & not be thrown out as a columnist.

Comment #5: Mark  on  01/16  at  04:47 PM

The “punishment”, as anyone who watches cop shows on tv knows, is that moment when the now-sprung criminal taunts the arresting officer as he is escorted out of the police station. In this moment, the officer is diminished from a fiery angel of divine retribution into a bureaucratic functionary. Only for a moment, but in that moment an eternity.

Comment #6: Alden  on  01/16  at  04:48 PM

I don’t think zookeepers should abuse their animals, but nor do I think a zookeeper’s abused polar bear should be set free in Midtown Manhattan.

Ok, and I hate to say this, but Goldberg has a point.  Let us say that you have a cop pull some guy over and randomly start searching his car, without warrant or cause.  And let’s say, after fifty such random searches, he hits on a driver carrying a dead body in his trunk.

Legally, the body is now inadmissible as evidence and the criminal will walk, but the cop - being in the good ole boy club that is any local police unit - will likely get a slap on the wrist in the office and a hero’s welcome after hours.

This is, frankly, bass ackwards.  Two criminals walk away from two different crimes with virtually no culpability.  I think it would make more sense to handle this in the exact opposite fashion.  If a cop breaks the rules in obtaining evidence or making an arrest, he should - himself - be immediately subject to criminal action.  How harsh you want to make that I can’t really say, but I would like to see him slapped with the same punishment he would have received if he hadn’t been a cop and you’d caught him rifling through your car, breaking down your front door, or shooting your dog “in self-defense” inside your own living room.

HOWEVER, I also don’t see why the court should throw out what is still perfectly good evidence.  If a cop pats you down - unlawfully - and finds an ounce of meth, HE should get punished for infringing your civil rights (assault, maybe) AND YOU should get punished for carrying around a prohibited substance.  Two wrongs should result in two punishments, not some criminal mulligan.

The upshot of all this will be that cops who don’t fear losing their own liberties will keep clean, but clearly guilty criminals will have fewer loopholes to escape down the rabbit hole.  That seems substantially more fair to me.

Comment #7: Zifnab25  on  01/16  at  04:51 PM

What the hell is the point of the fourth amendment if cops can just ignore it? It doesn’t offer any protection at all if law enforcement agents can ignore it at will to gather evidence against someone. Does the fourth amendment only apply if your not guilty of anything? I really don’t get how this reasoning works.

Comment #8: penn  on  01/16  at  04:56 PM

Our safety, security, and freedom are just too precious to risk by allowing people to have too much safety, security, and freedom!

The More War We Make, the More Peace We Get!

Reducing Our Freedom Increases Our Freedom!

Our Greatest Strength is Our Great Ignorance!

*falls over into fetal position and starts drooling on the carpet while muttering vague admirations of Ronald Reagan…*

Comment #9: MikeEss  on  01/16  at  04:57 PM

When we enact legislation saying that the officer who undertakes an unlawful search must plead guilty to the highest-time offense(s) that could be construed from the same actions if undertaken by a civilian—including the federally-mandated additional time for use of a firearm in the commission of a crime—and must serve all sentences consecutively, let’s come back and ditch the exclusionary rule.

The court’s constant chipping away at sanctions against police misconduct is particularly crazy-making as the police become more militarized and violent.

Comment #10: paul  on  01/16  at  04:58 PM

“See, the thing you’re describing?  It’s not what anyone’s saying. “

Well, except for Reynolds, the guy whose argument he was criticizing. Very close reading you did there.


The rest of the post consists of criticizing Goldberg’s use of analogy….and ends with an analogy between the exclusionary rule and (of course!) desegregation.

Hmm.

Comment #11: GG  on  01/16  at  04:58 PM

Because I am about to not work for the Po anymore, I am going to butt my head in and say that anyone who thinks that police officers don’t stoop to the level of OH THE DOOR WAS PARTIALLY OPEN AND I THOUGHT I HEARD A CRY FOR HELP AND THEN I SAW THE DEFENDANT’S POT PLANT JUST SITTING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROOM SO HEY is hilariously misinformed.

Now can we please say something about “DWI checkpoints” being used to cordon off Hispanic neighborhoods and check people’s papers? Because it is getting ridiculous up in here, and I’m too blond to get pulled over by one (waved on through. Every. Time.) and bring a test case.

Comment #12: purpleshoes  on  01/16  at  04:58 PM

Zifnab, what you are proposing may work in a perfect world. Essentially, the cop is punished for violating my constitutional rights, but I am still punished for my crimes. But, do you seriously think a cop would ever actually get punished for this? Have you seen the news recently? You would basically give them a blank check to violate our rights knowing full well that the good old boy network will keep them from any repercussions. It just wouldn’t work. The only way to do it is to make the evidence inadmissible. That takes away all incentive to violate due process.

Comment #13: penn  on  01/16  at  05:03 PM

Zifnab - the problem comes with accepting evidence through any means acquired.  If we decide that’s something good and desirable, then it makes no sense to simultaneously punish it. 

We don’t allow thieves to keep what they stole because they’re going to jail.

Comment #14: Jesse Taylor  on  01/16  at  05:04 PM

If a cop breaks the rules in obtaining evidence or making an arrest, he should - himself - be immediately subject to criminal action.  How harsh you want to make that I can’t really say, but I would like to see him slapped with the same punishment he would have received if he hadn’t been a cop and you’d caught him rifling through your car, breaking down your front door, or shooting your dog “in self-defense” inside your own living room.

That’s about what I was going to say, but you said it better. The real problem is that there’s precious little downside to being a cop who breaks the rules unless there’s an exclusionary rule in place. The supposition is that if a cop knows that getting evidence in an illegal way will allow the perp to walk, then the cop will stay clean, but that’s not really much of an incentive to keep clean in the first place. It’s even less so if there’s a back door for cops to get through as regards the evidence.

So how do you make it worth a cop’s while to stay clean? You put something at risk—if they break the law in gathering evidence, then they get hit with a penalty for doing so—and if the situation is clearly deliberate, you toss them off the force on top of any other penalties. I figure that if you’re the kind of person who wants to enforce the law, you have to be hyper-clean yourself.

Comment #15: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  01/16  at  05:05 PM

Well, except for Reynolds, the guy whose argument he was criticizing. Very close reading you did there.

The rest of the post consists of criticizing Goldberg’s use of analogy….and ends with an analogy between the exclusionary rule and (of course!) desegregation.

Hmm.

First part’s corrected and second part’s correct, so I don’t need to change anything.  Thanks!

Comment #16: Jesse Taylor  on  01/16  at  05:09 PM

Never happen, Zifnab… there’s a website devoted to cops ranting about other cops who dare to give them speeding tickets. They seem to feel that brother cops should just let them go with a finger wag.
They don’t like to nail fellow cops… it would harsh their crime busting buzz, or something…

Comment #17: K. Mac  on  01/16  at  05:10 PM

God, but I love Jesse posts. “Nature’s frosty criminals”? How do you come up with this stuff?

Zifnab25, there’s about 300 things wrong with your post, but I’ll start with the fact that the cop in your analogy should not be getting in trouble for one illegal search. He should be getting in trouble for fifty illegal searches.

And let’s say, after fifty such random searches, he hits on a driver carrying a dead body in his trunk.

By the way, I support exclusionary rule AND harsher punishments for police who conduct illegal searches. Because right now, it feels like, “Oh, you broke a rule and we caught you. You can’t use the evidence now. Better luck next time.

Second purpleshoes on this sort of shit happening all the time, in my opinion.

Comment #18: Essie the Elephant  on  01/16  at  05:13 PM

The supposition is that if a cop knows that getting evidence in an illegal way will allow the perp to walk, then the cop will stay clean, but that’s not really much of an incentive to keep clean in the first place.

I think it’s a pretty good incentive, because presumably the cops are illegally searching for evidence so they can arrest and convict the perp. It negates the very purpose of the illegal search. I also think that well run police departments would discipline cops who consistently jeopardized investigations through illegal searches.

Comment #19: penn  on  01/16  at  05:13 PM

I also think that well run police departments would discipline cops who consistently jeopardized investigations through illegal searches.

Well, you’d think they would, considering that their entire reason for existence is to ‘protect and serve’, but it almost never happens.  At least, I’ve never heard of an actual, real life police department that wasn’t a good old boys network.

Comment #20: ks  on  01/16  at  05:20 PM

ut, do you seriously think a cop would ever actually get punished for this? Have you seen the news recently? You would basically give them a blank check to violate our rights knowing full well that the good old boy network will keep them from any repercussions. It just wouldn’t work. The only way to do it is to make the evidence inadmissible. That takes away all incentive to violate due process.

Except - according to the SCOTUS - they still get to keep that incentive.  And all-carrot no-stick policies don’t really do much to discourage stick-worthy conduct if the offender has personal reasons to be a dick.  You’ll still get pulled over for Driving While Black for instance, cause the cop doesn’t care if his bullshit sticks.

They don’t like to nail fellow cops… it would harsh their crime busting buzz, or something…

So you make the prosecution automatic with rejection of the evidence.  If a criminal wants to contest the evidence against him and the judge finds it was obtained illegally, the cop immediately gets hit with sanctions.  Evidence that would normally get tossed remains on the table - abet with the “taint” of a crocked cop on it - and the cop receives an automatic indictment.

You have to take this out of law enforcements’ hands.  If a cop presents evidence, he has to be confident it won’t bite him in the ass.  This should result in less evidence getting presented by cops if they “aren’t sure” and a lot more peer review before the defense attorney ever even needs to see it.  And that’s a good thing.

Comment #21: Zifnab25  on  01/16  at  05:21 PM

It wasn’t the people that searched the vehicle that broke the rules, it was the people taking care of the warrent system.  Maybe not cops at all.  Maybe just a civilian button-pusher.  The people doing the search acted in good faith (I think). 

Sorry,
Not too upset about this one.

But yes, Jonah is an unintelligent lifeform.

Comment #22: Magis  on  01/16  at  05:30 PM

I think it’s a pretty good incentive, because presumably the cops are illegally searching for evidence so they can arrest and convict the perp. It negates the very purpose of the illegal search. I also think that well run police departments would discipline cops who consistently jeopardized investigations through illegal searches.

The problem with your reasoning is that it assumes that a cop is going to be horribly upset by having one perp walk when he or she has nailed a bunch of others using the same tactics. But if you make it so that the cop has something personally at risk, then it’s a completely different matter.

Comment #23: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  01/16  at  05:33 PM

So you make the prosecution automatic with rejection of the evidence.  If a criminal wants to contest the evidence against him and the judge finds it was obtained illegally, the cop immediately gets hit with sanctions.

How often do illegal or “illegal” (the oh yes, door open, thought I heard a cry for help, oh look marijuana plant) searches happen?  Seems like this could really bog the legal system down (between frivolous complaints and prosecuting police officers).

Comment #24: Fashionably Evil  on  01/16  at  05:37 PM

What about a cop who searches for evidence of one type of crime and then turns up evidence of a completely unrelated crime?

Let’s say a cop pulls over a driver and then thinks he smells pot.  The cop then searches the car, turns up a dead body in the trunk, but no marijuana.  Does the evidence of the body get tossed out because the cop made a supposed mistake, even as he/she made it in good faith?  I don’t agree that it should, and I’m not convinced that the meth and firearm in this case should also be tossed out for the reasons stated.

To me, the real issue in this case is that the police searched this guy’s truck for no apparent reason.  So what if he was arrested on an old warrant?  Having committing a crime in the past doesn’t automatically lead to the loss of your privacy rights in the present.  As far as I’m concerned, the guy’s person should only have been searched for the presence of weapons, the safety of the officer, etc.

Comment #25: keshmeshi  on  01/16  at  05:59 PM

God, I’m so glad you brought this to our attention.

What a horrible, horrible system we have. Of course most the rest of the world is a lot worse….

Comment #26: Constantine  on  01/16  at  06:04 PM

kesh, cops can’t search your car just because they think they smell pot.  To quote Jay-Z, “I know my rights and you’re gonna need a warrant for that”.  So your whole premise is bogus.  Now, if he gets permission to search the car looking for pot and finds a body, then it’s admissible.

Comment #27: themann1086  on  01/16  at  06:08 PM

I don’t think that’s the case, themann. Smelling marijuana (or blood or gunsmoke) is sufficient cause to allow a search, just like seeing a hand dangling from the trunk or seeing a pot plant in the window is sufficient. Maybe it depends on the state.

Comment #28: Dan in Denver  on  01/16  at  06:27 PM

Ergo, the police should be able to use virtually anything they find for any reason whatsoever so long as it results in Bad People being punished.

The Third Reich had a term for this—they called it “positive justice.” The premise is, you prevent crime and hence harm to proper citizens by rounding up bad people ASAP.

Because of course, people come predestined to be good or evil; all you gotta do is find and eliminate the latter, and voila, justice!

Comment #29: Mark Foxwell  on  01/16  at  06:28 PM

Thinking it over again, I think Dan is right and I was wrong.  I’m still pretty sure that the driver could argue with the cop and refuse, and the cop would only be able to hold them there while they called for legal backup or whatever.  But hell, I’m not sure now.

Comment #30: themann1086  on  01/16  at  06:31 PM

I’m an anarchist. My roomie is Basque and an ETA sympathizer. We have similar thoughts on this subject.

What happens if the government decides to raid all known members of a political group, and doing so they find evidence in one instance of a terrorist plot? And the evidence, in spite of the search being done without probable cause, is found admissible?

In our world, we call these political prisoners.

There needs to be a very strong disincentive for police to do these sort of searches, since they can lead to political or religious persecution (how about if they start randomly raiding Muslims?). Having the cops being slapped on the wrist for this by considering this mere trespassing is not nearly close enough to the amount of harm this causes. It’s like with bias crimes (usually called ‘hate crimes’). Making swastika graffitis with “go home” messages on a mosque causes more harm than just the direct destruction of property.

An agent of the state can do more harm to our civil rights doing the same thing as a private citizen just by virtue of being an agent of the state.

Comment #31: BlackBloc  on  01/16  at  06:32 PM

There also are and always have been balancing elements to the exclusionary rule that says that there is a sliding scale in terms of the good faith of the officer and the seriousness of the crime.  The exceptions to the exclusionary rule are supposed to be in very rare cases.  While regular viewing of Law and Order would seem to indicate the contrary, I don’t know of a single really serious case where someone has walked on say, a murder, because of the exclusionary rule.  The whole problem with these minor drug cases, etc. is that these are not supposed to be the kinds of cases that allow an exception. Of course, the real B.S. is that there are so many ways around it anyway with the “I swore I heard something…”.  It does happen with alarming regularity, Fashionably Evil.  Hell—look at the case facts surrounding Bowers and Lawrence.

Comment #32: pennylane  on  01/16  at  06:32 PM

For those who’ve been reading pandagon for a long time, I wanted to chime in and mention that the current person commenting under the name “Constantine” is different than the person, me, who used to comment here using the name “Constantine” a few years ago. I still read pandagon and while Constantine is free to use that name, since I don’t, I wouldn’t want any long-time readers to confuse the two of us.

Comment #33: Constantine  on  01/16  at  06:36 PM

I’m still amazed at “Cordozo” ... I know you brought it up later in your post, but waaay before then I had already clicked through to the article (first visit ever to townhall.com) because I just could not believe it.

Cordozo.

Doesn’t anyone there know any better? I knew, and I’m just this guy (or Dog, whichever) and have no legal background at all, but Jonah, who writes this stuff for a living, and the editor (presumably there’s an editor over there somewhere) who edits it for a living ... not a clue between them?

And from this they make a living. I suppose we should all be grateful they didn’t call him Lemuel Cordozo or something.

Just amazing.

Comment #34: Ghost of Joe Liebling's Dog  on  01/16  at  06:50 PM

How ‘bout a deal: in each case, the illegitimate evidence can be thrown out -OR- the people responsible for the illegitimate evidence can face real, stiff, professional and if remotely applicable criminal penalties.
In other words, let the people responsible for violating the defendants’ rights decide; if they think a defendant is such a menace to society that getting a conviction is worth their career, their pension, and a conviction for breaking and entering, then let them try for that conviction. Otherwise they should follow the rules that exist to protect everyone’s rights and thus to protect our society.
But the idea that just because the defense attorney can’t prove a sweeping malign conspiracy by the cops, because the cops really did mean to get the baddie, then the cops should have unlimited power to break the law and get REWARDED for it with more convictions, etcetera - that idea is frankly terrifying.

Comment #35: Warren Terra  on  01/16  at  06:51 PM

All I have to say is, if you really think the exclusionary rule means that as a consequence of the illegal search of a guy’s trunk, they LET THE DUDE WITH THE BODY IN HIS TRUNK GO as opposed to the evidence possibly being thrown out in court and maybe resulting in a lighter sentence, then you have no basis to be debating this.  Jesus frickin christ. 

Our justice system is supposed to make sure that these little “mistakes” don’t start getting made as a matter of course, because oddly enough, cops can be the bad guys, and citizens (even criminals! my god!) are supposed to have rights too, but you know what?  You’re right.  I’m sure this ruling won’t have any unintended consequences whatsoever for the vulnerable in our society, and it’ll totally be worth it not to “let criminals go free.”

Better to let a dozen guilty men go free than imprison one innocent?  That’s hippie talk that is.

Comment #36: Ugly In Pink  on  01/16  at  06:53 PM

Obviously, that rant wasn’t addressed to most of you.

Comment #37: Ugly In Pink  on  01/16  at  06:54 PM

Aaaand I misread Zifnab’s comment.  This is not my day.  Leaving in disgrace now!

Comment #38: Ugly In Pink  on  01/16  at  06:59 PM

Karmakin: If I were to argue this, I’d argue that automatically excluding evidence based upon a non-malicious error might not serve the greater justice. However, I’d be following that up with using my bully pulpit to push for stronger direct punitive action against authorities who violate the freedom and privacy of fellow citizens.

“The greater justice” isn’t “as many convictions as possible”. Sometimes justice requires letting a guilty person go free, so that we don’t infringe on the freedoms and liberties of the innocent. Justice isn’t just punishment, it’s also fair treatment.

Comment #39: Theaetetus  on  01/16  at  07:02 PM

We’ve got how many more decades of Roberts and Alito?  Bush’s destruction of our constitutional protections will continue long after Tuesday.

Comment #40: MAJeff, God of Biscuits  on  01/16  at  07:02 PM

The proposal for a national ID will give the police the same authority to search anyone at any time while verifying the ID.

Comment #41: tpx  on  01/16  at  07:12 PM

Isn’t this a pretty clear “fruit of the poisonous tree” situation, even though it’s the result of an error as opposed to an illegality? The warrant wasn’t supposed to be there, as everyone admits, so therefore there’s no probable cause. This could open the floodgates on search and seizure cases. And what prevents neighboring law enforcement agencies from calling each other claiming to have a warrant, and then arguing a good faith exception? This is a good case to bring up whenever some idiot claims that conservative justices are “strict constructionists”.

Comment #42: Liz  on  01/16  at  07:15 PM

Arguing with Jonah is like pushing water uphill but I’m glad you do it Jesse.

I’m with essie:

Polar bears: nature’s frosty criminals. 

EPIC WIN

Comment #43: stryx  on  01/16  at  07:17 PM

*ahem*

Right now, if police find drugs, they can confiscate your car, house, boat, etc.

And, frankly, they can’t plant it if they can’t search. I’d love to believe all cops are honest and well-meaning and just trying to keep the public safe. But it isn’t true. The law against improper search is not only about protecting the guilty from improper procedures, but keeping the innocent safe from frame ups.

Comment #44: Samantha Vimes  on  01/16  at  07:21 PM

Someone just doesn’t get the “fruit of the poisonous tree” doctrine.  Jonah should have gone to law school.  And 5 of the 9 should take some CLE on con law and criminal procedure.

Comment #45: BetsyTX  on  01/16  at  07:39 PM

I have a friend who is a cop, and the exclusionary rule drives him crazy. He thinks the cops SHOULD be punished for illegally obtaining evidence, but the evidence should be admissible if it is valid.

Comment #46: pablo  on  01/16  at  07:47 PM

5 of the 9 don’t seem to give much of a shit about con law or criminal procedure, they just think that cops doing whatever the fuck they want to do is just peachy.  And as far as the poor bitch in the original case goes, d’you think if the evidence turned up in the patently illegal search and seizure had, as it should have been, thrown out, that he’d have gotten his drugs and his gun back?  Anyone?

For those of y’all who believe that prayer has some power to it, could you pray for Scalia and Thomas and Alito to get Alzheimer’s?  Thanks.

Comment #47: kaninchen  on  01/16  at  07:50 PM

According to the exclusionary rule, a cop who breaks the rules to arrest a serial child rapist should be “punished” by having the rapist released back into the general public.

This is how we got into the situation we’re in with cops using Tasers to force compliance.  We have all kinds of hysterics coming up with the worse case scenario (“What if the guy with a body in his trunk was TED BUNDY!?!?!?  Huh?  What about that, smart guy?”) that push people into supporting these insane police-state moves.  Which is how we got 10 times more drug users getting life sentences in California than 2nd degree murderers.

If some bizarre worst-case scenario comes up, do you know what you do?  You pass a new law to cover it.  Trying to legislate by covering all possible bases is begging for the cops to come along and shoot your dogs.

Comment #48: Mnemosyne  on  01/16  at  07:56 PM

For those of y’all who believe that prayer has some power to it, could you pray for Scalia and Thomas and Alito to get Alzheimer’s?  Thanks.

Oh, hell no.  If they’re making binding decisions like this when they’re (presumably) compos mentis, imagine how much damage they could do in the decade or so before they get diagnosed.  No.  Thank.  You.

Comment #49: Mnemosyne  on  01/16  at  08:01 PM

For those of y’all who believe that prayer has some power to it, could you pray for Scalia and Thomas and Alito to get Alzheimer’s?  Thanks.

Oh, hell no.  If they’re making binding decisions like this when they’re (presumably) compos mentis, imagine how much damage they could do in the decade or so before they get diagnosed.  No.  Thank.  You.

Exactly. We already went through that with Reagan. I’m going to hope for a car driver losing control while those guys are walking across the street.

Comment #50: MAJeff, God of Biscuits  on  01/16  at  08:07 PM

Fish in a barrel Jesse.

Don’t get me wrong, this particular fish deserves a “shots to the noggin” as another asshat put it, just pointing that making fun of the mentally incapable is easy.

The one thing that never ceases to amaze is that people pay doughbob loadpants for this crap.  Holy shit, that’s some easy money I’d like a piece of.

Comment #51: ice weasel  on  01/16  at  08:08 PM

How often do illegal or “illegal” (the oh yes, door open, thought I heard a cry for help, oh look marijuana plant) searches happen?  Seems like this could really bog the legal system down (between frivolous complaints and prosecuting police officers).

If your goal is to not “bog down the legal system” then by all means let’s just stop prosecuting criminals - bad cops, legitimate thieves, innocent bystanders - all together.  That’s the biggest of cop-outs (no pun intended).

But the bottom line is that if a guy is caught committing a crime and the evidence is real and at hand, it seems silly to throw it out because it was discovered by a bad cop.  On the flip side, it seems silly to have a system that identifies bad cops (or bad police procedure) and fails to immediately discipline the offenders.  If evidence does get ID’d as illegitimate by a court, the cop should immediately suffer consequences.

I mean, if you’re investigating a drug dealer and you find, in the course of your investigation, another drug dealer, do you just toss up your hands and walk away because we can’t prosecute TWO CRIMES as that would overburden the judicial system?  Likewise, if you’re investigating a drug dealer and you find, in the course of your investigation, a crocked or derelict cop, do you shrug your shoulders and announce, “Hey, we can’t prosecute everybody” then drop one case or the other?  Fuck that.

Cops need to know that they can’t accuse a civilian without putting their own reputations on the line.  The best way to do that is to incur immediate repercussions against cops that break the rules.  At the same time, its silly to let obviously guilty guys walk free on a technicality.

Comment #52: Zifnab25  on  01/16  at  08:21 PM

Does Justice Cardozo look like Conan O’Brien or is it just my imagination?

Kaninchen, I doubt that Alzheimer’s would be noticed in Thomas or Scalia, and it would probably be an improvement in Alito.

Comment #53: G Porgy  on  01/16  at  08:38 PM

if a criminal wants to contest the evidence against him and the judge finds it was obtained illegally, the cop immediately gets hit with sanctions.

We already have a system in which cops do illegal things and get off scot free or close to it. I don’t see how this would change it. Say an alleged criminal contests the evidence against him. If finding that it was obtained illegally would hit the cop with sanctions, do you really think it would be found illegal?

Hell no. What would happen is the alleged criminal’s case would be dismissed or the evidence would be found legal. The alleged criminal would be screwed, and once again the cop would get off scot free.

I think you have a wee bit too much faith in the courts—as someone pointed out in the Oscar Grant discussion, they have a deeply incestuous and interdependent relationship with the police and one hand would definitely wash each other just as it does today.

Comment #54: Kristin  on  01/16  at  08:43 PM

I think the point the court was trying to make was that this was a good faith error.

What I’m more bothered by is when they checked for the warrant wasn’t when they towed the vehicle, but when the guy picked it up.  That doesn’t exactly encourage people to go to the police if they can be arrested for just showing up, rather than having the problem they went to the police for dealt with.

Which makes this case alot more upsetting than at first glance.

Lastly, I think that the police should have the right to search a car they’d towed.  Not that I think they should be able to tow anything, but it’s a safety issue - if they hadn’t searched the car and it had something time-sensitive or hazardous in it it could be a serious loss for the owner or hazard to the officers (or the owner).  Not searching the vehicle when it’s to be towed seems like a serious dereliction of duty to provide safety.  What if it was filled with someone’s groceries?  A child or pet?  What if it was abandoned for a medical emergency?  They should treat the car as the start of a missing persons case.  And in the worst case, an abandoned car could be a bomb or dead body.

With this case we’ve just learned that a murderer can get at least a month head start by stuffing someone into the back of their own car and letting the cops tow it.

Comment #55: Crissa  on  01/16  at  08:46 PM

If your goal is to not “bog down the legal system” then by all means let’s just stop prosecuting criminals - bad cops, legitimate thieves, innocent bystanders - all together.  That’s the biggest of cop-outs (no pun intended).

I was merely inquiring as a matter of policy—see for example, what’s going on in border states when they start dealing with illegal immigration.  Is this enough of a problem to shift our resources?  I’m not saying it’s not, just asking the question.

(Of course, overhauling our ridiculous drug policy would solve a lot of problems.)

Comment #56: Fashionably Evil  on  01/16  at  09:11 PM

Here’s an interesting article from the NYT , written before the Herring decision was decided but after it was scheduled to be heard, with some background to the exclusionary rule in the US and how it compares internationally.  And unlike Goldberg, NYT spells Justice Cardozo’s name right when quoting him. 

Alito & Roberts are not as bad as Thomas & Scalia and I’m hoping they’ll improve when the latter pair dies (or retires).  Roberts relies heavily on US v. Leon here; although I’m not a fan of Leon (or this decision), it’s still better jurisprudence than “I got in the Wayback Machine with Mr. Peabody and in 1743 in colonial Virginia a carriage full of bootleg liquor & prostitutes was still subject to seizure despite a faulty parchment from the King and therefore…” like we might’ve seen out of Mr.-History-&-Tradition-Just-Like-the-Rich-White-Guys-in-Charge-Intended Scalia.

Comment #57: vyreque  on  01/16  at  09:13 PM

This is only tangentially related, but following up the thought expressed by Crissa: I have read NUMEROUS times about cops arresting an adult and JUST LEAVING (once on the side of a highway) tiny children and/or pets unsupervised, abandoned, in a way that if an adult did it without the police’s assistance, would be criminal.

I would have thought that, say, leaving an infant alone in a freezing apartment, would be criminal. I would have thought that the police wouldn’t do such a thing.

Does anyone have any information of thoughts about this?

Comment #58: KMTBERRY  on  01/16  at  09:45 PM

That doesn’t exactly encourage people to go to the police if they can be arrested for just showing up, rather than having the problem they went to the police for dealt with.

Which was the original rationale for California’s policy that doesn’t allow the police to inquire about immigration status:  people who were afraid of being arrested wouldn’t report other crimes that they witnessed or were victims of.  So in order to bring in 10 or 20 illegal immigrants, the cops would blow their chance to catch a murderer.

Of course, you can’t get the crazy anti-immigrant people to understand that there actually are worse crimes than coming here to work illegally.  Murderers go free so we can send a few more people back to Central America?  Sounds good!

Comment #59: Mnemosyne  on  01/16  at  09:55 PM

Look, the exclusionary rule wasn’t just made up out of thin air by a Supreme Court intent on coddling criminals.  Decades of exeprience showed that other methods of enforcing the 4th Amendment did not work.  Earl Warren, a career prosecutor, knew the nuts and bolts of police work in his day, and made up his mind to change things.  The result is a criminal justice system that works much better than it did 60 years ago—the Warren Court’s rulings on interrogation and search & seizure made the police more professional, and inclined to careful investigation, as well as more respectful of citizens’ rights Honest police officers will admit this, if you ask them privately.

Comment #60: rea  on  01/16  at  10:07 PM

Good god. No wonder numbnuts Goldberg here doesn’t understand what fascism or totalitarianism were really about. The reason these rules exist is so that the STATE (da-da-duuuuuh!!!!) can’t simply target you by going and rummaging around your private possessions until they find something they can hang a criminal charge on.

Oh, yeah, is Cardozo a spitting image of Conan O’Brien or what?

Comment #61: jonas  on  01/16  at  10:27 PM

That was my immediate thought, too. We suck so bad.

Comment #62: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/16  at  10:45 PM

“But the bottom line is that if a guy is caught committing a crime and the evidence is real and at hand, it seems silly to throw it out because it was discovered by a bad cop”

The FFs were all about the silly.  Part of the reason for the 4th was that Crown officials could search people’s property via blanket warrants in the interest of stopping smuggling.  Many New England FFs were smugglers (if you wanted to make money as a colonial merchant in the merchantilist world of the time, you were such a smuggling SoB you might as well have named your ship the Millennium Falcon and brought on a grizzley bear as the first mate).  The 4th Amendment is basically a rule put in place by criminals to insure that criminals were protected from the government in the commission of criminal acts - and the exclusionary rule is a way to insure that.  The absolutist nature of the 4th - and exclusionary rule to enforce it - is a feature, not a bug.

Comment #63: phalamir  on  01/16  at  11:00 PM

I think the idea of punishing the officer is a good one.

Seriously. We’ll force the officer to eat a doughnut *every day* with his coffee, *even if the officer doesn’t like doughnuts*. Unless, of course, the officer has a health exception, in which case we’ll say “bad officer! Bad bad officer!” in a harsh tone of voice.

And that commendation the officer gets a month down the road? It was, really, honestly, truly, for helping old ladies cross the street. Really. It had nothing to do with scoring a big collar with an illegal search.

Comment #64: LongHairedWeirdo  on  01/16  at  11:02 PM

We have to use any and all evidence we can get, no matter how it’s gotten, to protect future unspecified victims against future unspecified acts that may or may not happen.

And that’s how we justify torture and Gitmo and Abu Graib.

Who cares if it’s a fascist police state, since only the guilty need to worry?

Comment #65: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/16  at  11:47 PM

the biggest problem i have with the whole thing is that standing by your rights (especially the 4th amendment) is considered SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY and is then sufficient grounds for searching…

Comment #66: denelian  on  01/16  at  11:48 PM

The hair looks like Conan, but the nose is all wrong.

Comment #67: Liz  on  01/16  at  11:50 PM

if you wanted to make money as a colonial merchant in the merchantilist world of the time, you were such a smuggling SoB you might as well have named your ship the Millennium Falcon and brought on a grizzley bear as the first mate

I totally would watch that movie.

Comment #68: Dan S.  on  01/17  at  12:36 AM

I question whether the “good faith” error was made in good faith in the first place.  This is the type of “fact” that turns up in appellate decisions that was BS from day one.  It’s a good example of the police inventing a way to bootstrap themselves into a reason to search.

It’s just like when you’re driving down the NJ Turnpike, 3 black guys are standing behind a car (guarded) while a state trooper is looking under the seats of the car with his legs sticking up in the air.  In the written decision the facts will be - The officer asked for ID and spotted a bag of cocaine in plain view on the center console.

This was a big joke at a PD seminar I attended.  It got a BIG laugh because every one there know if was the truth.

Goldberg has a good “good faith” argument, which many people agree with.  Buit he’s wrong.  The only thing (so far) that might stop the cops from cheating, is not getting to use the evidence.

I wish you wouldn’t wish harm on Sup Ct Justices you don’t like.

How does this sound - “I hope Obama gets shot on the way to his swearing in”  I mean Yeech.  Who needs that.  As much as I disagree with the guy, I’m not going to wish death or desease on him.  That kind of statement is a reflection on the person saying it, and not a good one.

Comment #69: Libertarian  on  01/17  at  11:01 AM

the biggest problem i have with the whole thing is that standing by your rights (especially the 4th amendment) is considered SUSPICIOUS ACTIVITY and is then sufficient grounds for searching…

No, it isn’t.

(all skin-tone and wallet-size based exclusions still apply)

Comment #70: Jrod  on  01/18  at  07:03 AM
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