Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Runner-up! Previous entry: Rest In Peace, Madelyn Dunham

Pragamatic politics for atheists

If you’ve read my blogging once or twice, you’re probably well aware that I’m one of the cranky, outspoken atheists who impolitely uses expressions like “Sky Fairy” and applauded PZ Myers throwing a wafer in the trash.*  Thus you probably think that I was angry at Kay Hagan for her response to Elizabeth Dole’s “godless” ads, which was basically to sue Dole for libel.  After all, from a certain perspective, angrily denying an accusation makes it sound like you think being that thing is a bad thing, especially when you deny it as vehemently as Hagan did.  Sure, she’s not an atheist, but she made it sound like it’s a bad thing to be an atheist.  PZ is certainly offended, accusing Hagan of throwing atheists under the bus by saying things like, “making false witness against fellow Christians.”

At the risk of having my cranky credentials revoked, I’ll admit that my reaction to Hagan’s “Ah hell no!” retort to Dole’s ads was sheer delight.  Dole handed Hagan a loaded gun, and if Hagan didn’t fire it by out-Christianing her, she’d be a fool, and who wants a fool on your side?  They live in North Carolina. The idea that a politician should take a public stand for atheists there is more outrageous than asking as politician to take a public stand for Satanists.  Given the choice between token support in public and losing a genuine ally in Congress and having an ally who has to play by rules she didn’t write, I’ll take the latter.  Hagan might be religious and might even think atheists are weird, but she seems like she’s a secular humanist, and that’s all I require.  And by “secular humanist”, I mean someone whose political philosophy is humanist and her belief about church and state is the secular one, which is pro-separation/anti-establishment.  I have confidence that she’s basically with us.  I like to argue with religious liberals about religion and tease out how they have inevitable conflicts, but at the end of the day, I think most religious liberals are pure allies and secular humanists in their political views, even if they rate god higher than humans in their personal philosophy.  We all have various religious beliefs on this site, for instance, but we get along famously. 

I think what PZ is doing here is a common mistake, one I think I’ll probably try to write about more once the campaign craziness calms down, and that’s the difference between activist politics and electoral politics.  Activists spend a lot of our time criticizing politicians who hew their opinions closer to what they think most of their voters want than what we the activists want.  It’s not the worst strategy in the world, especially on issues where more people agree with us than perhaps the politicians think, and we can clue them in by raising our voices.  But in cases like this, we have to remember that politicians are there to express the will of the voters, and when your opinion is that of a small minority, you’re pissing in the wind to demand that politicians actively resist the voters and take a leadership position on your issue.  Kay Hagan’s job is to run for Senate and then be a Senator, Disco Ball willing.  Her job is not to stake out a leadership position for atheists, especially when she isn’t one.

Activists demanding that politicians show leadership for unpopular causes is, to be frank about it, lazy.  Showing leadership and persuading people is our job.  If we are good at it, the politicians will follow.  Remember: we’re technically their leaders more than they are ours.  Politicians in a democracy are supposed to be public servants, though I can understand that after 8 years of the Bush administration running the White House like they’re a monarchy, it’s hard to remember that.  But they work for us.  And if we want them to do our bidding, we have to create a coalition that’s strong enough that we can effectively pressure them to do so. 

It’s far from an exact science, gauging when you’ve reached the tipping point where your mass of voters is large enough that you can get a politicians to care.  I think, for instance, we probably reached it on gay marriage awhile ago and Democrats are being too cautious with their strategy of openly supporting civil unions while quietly resisting roadblocks to marriage, but they’re a lot further than we were a decade ago on that.  And if the difference between winning and losing is the difference between the words “civil unions” and “marriage”, I’ll take it and redouble the effort I put into convincing others that anything less than marriage isn’t fair.  To show that I’m not differing between “issues that affect me” and “issues that don’t”,** I feel the same on abortion.  I don’t feel personally validated when Obama talks about women consulting ministers on their reproductive choices, but I appreciate it as political rhetoric that gets the job done. Convincing people to be less hung up about sex and less religious in general is a job for we atheist feminists, and Obama’s job is getting elected and trying to hold together a liberal coalition.  I can disagree with him strongly on certain issues while supporting him, because we have different roles to play.

Which isn’t to say that we shouldn’t hold people’s feet to the fire.  But surely the better time to do that is when they’re in office and in the “serving constituents” mindset more than the “get elected” mindset.  It’s sexier to attach your ideas to campaigns, because frankly campaigns get coverage. And sometimes it’s useful, because it can be presented as win-win to the politicians.  But sometimes we have to face up to the fact that the avenue of electoral politics hasn’t opened yet.  If politics were like a video game, I’d say that atheists just haven’t earned enough voter points to open up that level yet.***


*Though I don’t get near the concerned criticism for it, and I think it’s because I come at it from a feminist perspective, and I think liberals tend to think reproductive rights, for instance, are a more pressing issue than persuading more people to become atheists.  And thus my frustration for religion is more understandable.
**Homophobia doesn’t affect me directly, but I do feel diminished by it, so the distinction between these categories isn’t cut and dry, and I think allies could find energy from thinking about how we’re diminished when our neighbors are oppressed.
***To strain the metaphor, I’d say that the courts are sometimes the equivalent of secret shortcuts that get you the points needed to change the politicians in a much shorter time, as was demonstrated through court-based activism in the 20th century.  Whatever works, I say.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:02 PM • (91) Comments

Yeah, I’m with you both as an outspoken atheist and as a pragmatic progressive. I felt the same way about Hagan’s response, just like I wasn’t upset about Obama’s Jeebus flyer during the primaries—you’re trying to get votes first and foremost, and considering that “decline to state” was at 15% in the last Pew poll on Americans’ religious stances (and that that number isn’t exclusively atheists), it’s not like we’re a natural constituency for anyone. So we’ve got to convince people on our own and find allies where we can—that’s the activist’s life, after all. We never get the politician we really want in office—at best, we get the one who’ll do.

Comment #1: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  11/03  at  09:13 PM

We all have various religious beliefs on this site, for instance, but we get along famously. 

Most of us.

Comment #2: Damian  on  11/03  at  09:24 PM

The choice here is between Hagan and Dole.

It ought to be clear.

Hagan needs to do whatever she can to beat Liddy, then she can veer as far into the secular humanist fold as she likes.

It’s not like her rebuttal ad did much for Jews or Muslims or even Catholics, either.  It was just attacking an attack ad from a party that has lived in the slime this year and has gotten all to comfortable with saying anything they want, whether or not it’s true, relying on repetition to create reality.

Fuck that shit.

Reality is real.  Repeating lies does not make them true.  Smack Dole good for lying about Hagan’s faith and the double-whack Dole for being a bad Christian to boot.

Comment #3: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/03  at  09:28 PM

As a religious liberal, sometimes it feels like I don’t belong anywhere.  It’s great how Amanda, she of the virgin Mary-bashing and everything else Donohue got so upset about, is far and away the cranky, outspoken atheist who makes me feel most welcome in the progressive coalition.

If anything, she doesn’t hate on Christians enough for my tastes. . .

Comment #4: Stephen Suh  on  11/03  at  09:39 PM

We certainly do have religious differences on here. There are those of you who are stupid enough to fork your hard earned cash over to hucksters who misquote me on a weekly basis; and there are those of you that don’t.

Comment #5: Sweet Baby Jesus  on  11/03  at  09:46 PM

Hagan’s response irritated me, but in a very mild offhand sort of way.

But then, I’ve had 50 years of being completely outside the religious mainstream (I was raised loosely pagan) and I get tired of seeing “Not Christian” get tossed under the bus regardless of whether Not Christian is Muslim, atheist, Pagan, etc.

I’m tired of American politicians being terrified of their own shadows on this topic, and others (like gay marriage).

And Amanda, you hit the nail on the head when you used the term “Public Servant.” It used to have real meaning. I’d like it to do so again

Comment #6: Broce  on  11/03  at  09:50 PM

I’m with both you and PZ, we need the range of views so that when the mainstream moves in the right direction, we have even more progressive ideas to point to. If you only applaud the moderates they’re not going to go one step further than they have to in some cases.

It’s great that you can support a moderate and get politics moving in the right direction, but don’t let them off the hook either. Have the fringe shout at them and force them to move an extra step next time.

Comment #7: Akheloios  on  11/03  at  09:52 PM

Hagan’s response irritated me, but in a very mild offhand sort of way.

Yep.  As I said to my roommate when I saw the video, “Uggggggh.  Well I guess that’s about as radical Leftist as it gets in the Bible Belt…”  (Though I will admit I thought her tone was pretty kickass and wish more Democrats would get that fired up, especially if they could try and do it for issues I care about.)

As I posted this weekend in the thread about the religious framing of questions in an Alabama political debate, though, the bottom line is that we’re not going to get anywhere wandering through the “heartland” telling them they’re wrong.  We have to figure out how to do what the fundamentalists have done, how to talk to religious folks and get them to see that we share “values” and political goals.  But unfortunately, the onus is on us to do it without lying outright or acting in bad faith.  Can it really be done?

Comment #8: The Opoponax  on  11/03  at  09:58 PM

Sorry, a key tenet of my Erisian faith is to not get along famously with anyone.

Comment #9: Sarcastro  on  11/03  at  10:06 PM

It’s great that you can support a moderate and get politics moving in the right direction, but don’t let them off the hook either. Have the fringe shout at them and force them to move an extra step next time.

I figure if I ever get really excited about a presidential candidate who has a chance to win, I need to check my own sense of what it means to be a progressive, because it’ll mean I’ve stopped moving forward. I mean, I’m excited about Obama, but not because I see him as a progressive savior—he’s not. He’s a left-leaning moderate who’ll cut the legs out of most of the programs I support in a heartbeat. He’s great symbolically and far better than the main alternative, but I’m not ga-ga over his policy proposals, because I’m to his left.

Comment #10: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  11/03  at  10:11 PM

Frankly, Hagan’s response made me think of hockey: a bodycheck so perfect, so sweet and so shattering that one doesn’t give a damn who’s on who’s time.  One just winces and laughs at the same time, saying, “Whoa!” out loud.

Canadian moment over.

Comment #11: seeker6079  on  11/03  at  10:11 PM

team, not time.

Comment #12: seeker6079  on  11/03  at  10:12 PM

Hagan’s response irritated me, but in a very mild offhand sort of way.

I had this response as well.  But I also get it—if she’s a fairly liberal Christian, she’s probably damn sick and tired of people thinking she’s “not a real Christian” or whatever, just ‘cause she doesn’t hate the gays enough.  I have have a very liberal, gay, environmentalist friend who went to divinity school, so I got to see this in action.  It was NO FUN for him to have to explain himself all the time.

I agree that the line isn’t between believers and non-believers, as easy as it would be to draw that line (and as lonely and empty as it would be on my atheistic side).  I tend to see it more as a division between people who are openminded, inquisitive, and curious (on the one side) versus people who are closed-minded fundamentalists on the other.  But there are probably other ways of describing this divide as well.

Comment #13: LauraB  on  11/03  at  10:15 PM

Her job is not to stake out a leadership position for atheists, especially when she isn’t one.
It wouldn’t have had to be a leadership position.  What made her statement especially galling (IMO) is that it came mere days after Colin Powell’s discussion of what’s wrong with calling Obama a Muslim (*other* than the fact that it’s false).  All Hagan really needed to do was follow in a Republican’s footsteps to take a stand against religious bigotry.  She could have quoted Powell’s speech practically word for word with “atheist” substituted for “Muslim” and it would have been enough.  Some people in her own home state might even have admired such a stand on American principles.

Instead, she proved she could out-Herod Herod and spit on religious minorities even when a Republican refused to.  Is this really what we’ve supported this party for?  (Personal disclosure: I live in the 5th District of Virginia, and have been rhetorically slapped in the face by our own “Democratic” candidate repeating the standard right-wing boilerplate about “Judeo-Christian” values.  I plan to vote for him anyway - see below - but I’m not exactly happy about it.)

She’s still less vile than her opponent in this race, and for any North Carolinians entering a ballot booth tomorrow, I hope they remember that.  But PZ’s blog is not a North Carolinian ballot booth and there’s no reason he shouldn’t call out “our” side when they act worse than a Republican (although, granted, an unusually non-evil Republican).

Comment #14: Chris  on  11/03  at  10:22 PM

I’m with you, Broce.  It’s really irritating seeing anyone who isn’t Christian - and not just Christian, but Real, True Christian - thrown under the bus.  I’m part of a religious minority that is so minoritized that we pretty much don’t come up unless it’s as a subset of Satanism (don’t even get me started on that), but we don’t get the negative press that atheists do (mainly because we get no press at all aside from the occasional child sacrifice paranoia), and the whole thing pisses me off, because, whatever someone believes, it is not acceptable to judge their competence for public service based off of it unless it influences the service they perform.  Period, done, end of story.  Religion should be removed from political discourse; it has no place there.  I’m tired of seeing the atheists I know thrown under the bus in that way, as if their not believing in God means they can’t love their country and love their families. 

Has anyone here ever seen that billboard that shows this picture of a young dude pointing the business end of a pistol at you?  It says, “How would you feel if you knew he didn’t believe in God?”  Or some tripe like that.  I would far rather the dude pointing the weapon at me not believe in God, because that means that he is less likely to think he’s being instructed divinely or some crap like that.

I tend to see it more as a division between people who are openminded, inquisitive, and curious (on the one side) versus people who are closed-minded fundamentalists on the other.

And that’s where I land on that issue.

Comment #15: INTPagan  on  11/03  at  10:28 PM

It wouldn’t have had to be a leadership position.  What made her statement especially galling (IMO) is that it came mere days after Colin Powell’s discussion of what’s wrong with calling Obama a Muslim (*other* than the fact that it’s false).  All Hagan really needed to do was follow in a Republican’s footsteps to take a stand against religious bigotry.  She could have quoted Powell’s speech practically word for word with “atheist” substituted for “Muslim” and it would have been enough.  Some people in her own home state might even have admired such a stand on American principles.

I agree with you ideologically, but, having lived in NC for several years before moving back to TX, that wouldn’t have flown.  There’s a Free Will Baptist church on literally every street corner of the town I was in, and Raleigh-Durham, Greenville, and Asheville were the only tolerable areas about; everywhere else I saw there was Six Flags Over Jesus.  What she did was dirty, but it was politically expedient and necessary for her to win the race and get into a position to do more good than Dole would have.  I hated the ad, but I understood it, and I also thought that her calling out a fellow Christian on a religious issue, while politically inappropriate, was definitely warranted.

Comment #16: INTPagan  on  11/03  at  10:31 PM

I look at it this way:

Hagen believes and believes strongly.  This matters to her, and it matters in a very personal way.  I think that she can be forgiven her “imperfection” of not jumping to defend atheism given the very personal insult that has been dealt to her in her sights.  She isn’t “godless” by any stretch of the imagination.  Just because we think that her belief is wrong doesn’t mean she has to act as we would like her to.

Comment #17: Ms Kate  on  11/03  at  10:38 PM

P-zed is merely being consistent.  Yes, sometimes the consistent among us are annoying.  Sometimes the consistent among us are not as practical as we might wish for.  But in the end they are…consistent.  There is an integrity there that I can respect.  Even if it is a pain in the ass.  We need those pains to help us evolve.  We need more people such as P-zed.

Comment #18: ice weasel  on  11/03  at  10:43 PM

how to talk to religious folks and get them to see that we share “values” and political goals.  But unfortunately, the onus is on us to do it without lying outright or acting in bad faith.  Can it really be done?

Having grown up openly pagan back in the 60s and 70s gave me a LOT of experience in talking to religious folk and getting them to see that being a witch (not a Wiccan, so I couldnt ease the way with that word) didnt mean that I ate babies or consorted with demons. Yes, it’s possible to get them to see that we share values and often political goals, but it isnt easy. And generally its easier done one on one.

One really annoying thing to remember is that if you live in an area like that you may be the first atheist or pagan they’ve ever known…so you *are* the face of atheism or paganism or Islam or whatever as far as they’re concerned. Yes, it means you bite your tongue a lot. And it means you have to translate from their language to yours carefully. And no, it isnt fair that you get to be the poster child for your -ism. But it’s the way it is. And you can make a difference.

People like me have made a difference for paganism. In 1970 or 1975, I wasnt only the only pagan people knew, I was often their first encounter with the whole concept that something other than Christian existed. Now, there are pagan groups on military bases. There are organized pagan churches with nonprofit status like other religious groups, we can specify paganism on dogtags and gravestones through the military. There *is* more acceptance than there used to be.

It is as Amanda noted, that a “tipping point” has to be reached. And that takes communication and understanding and a whole buttload of patience on our part.

Comment #19: Broce  on  11/03  at  10:48 PM

Religion should be removed from political discourse; it has no place there.

I see religion and politicians sort of like politicians and sex. I dont care who you sleep with, how often or in what position. And frankly, it’s none of my business and I’d rather not know about it (who really wants to think about John and Cindy McCain???). I’d also just as soon not know who how or when you worship, honor or don’t.

What I want to know is what you plan to do, and do you have the competence and skills to implement those plans. I don’t need to know what my plumber does in bed or how often he goes to church. I need to know he can fix my toilet.

Comment #20: Broce  on  11/03  at  10:53 PM

In 1970 or 1975, I wasnt only the only pagan people knew, I was often their first encounter with the whole concept that something other than Christian existed.

This was me in the mid-90’s, in my Catholic high school in south Louisiana, which is not only bible belt but CATHOLIC bible belt—most of my classmates didn’t know there was anything beyond Catholic or Baptist (AKA white trash).  So, yeah.

Comment #21: The Opoponax  on  11/03  at  10:55 PM

I was that person, too, Broce.  I was raised a fundie, but I grew out of it quickly (I spent my teen years telling myself that I really needed to try to be more judgmental of people; heh), and, after going all apostate heathen on they asses, I was often the first anything that people ran into outside of a Chick Tract.  I can honestly say that, politically and religiously, I’ve done a great deal to open my parents’ minds (otherwise they would have had to disown me; about all they have left is that at least I’m not a lesbian, so I don’t think I’ll go down the potentially bisexual road with them), and that the people I have known have either come to understand or to outright reject me, and it’s usually worked in the former’s direction.

Also note that the VA just now made it so that you could have a pentacle on your gravestone.  I was in the Marines while that whole fight was going on.  There may be pagan groups onbase, but in the Navy they cannot have chaplains for us because we are not a “centralized religious group,” and it’s still very acceptable to ignore, point and laugh, or make malicious cracks at the expense of pagans.  I heard about them throwing bottles and cans at troops trying to hold circles for sabbats in the desert.  My ex and I were on the receiving end of discrimination, but never from our direct chain of command, who was pretty cool on the whole.

It’s touch-and-go.  If I end up in a place where I have to discuss it for whatever reason, I try to educate. 

And you don’t eat babies?  Speak for yourself.

Comment #22: INTPagan  on  11/03  at  11:02 PM

I’d rather have one atheist with strong humanist values in my foxhole than 1000 right-wing Christians, nu?

Comment #23: BetsyTX  on  11/03  at  11:06 PM

Also note that the VA just now made it so that you could have a pentacle on your gravestone.

I was involved in one of the groups pushing for this, even though I wouldnt consider a pentacle to be “my” symbol.

Babies give me indigestion.

Comment #24: Broce  on  11/03  at  11:09 PM

Despite my atheism, I wasn’t offended by Hagan’s response—calling a Sunday school teacher and a church elder an atheism IS an insult by THEIR lights, which is all that’s required here.

I’m perfectly willing to thrash out respect for atheists with religious liberals later, but we have to kill off modern Republicanism first. As long as folks like Dole are running through the separation between church and state with a glue gun, we’re half a step away from being in actual physical danger. Respect can come once we’re out of it.

Comment #25: Llelldorin  on  11/03  at  11:15 PM

it’s still very acceptable to ignore, point and laugh, or make malicious cracks at the expense of pagans

Yes…but truly…and here’s my “but I walked 10 miles to school through the snow, barefoot, when I was a young’un” moment. Truly, its a lot easier to be openly pagan now than it was 35 years ago. My mother took the family “out of the broom closet” in 1970 after my dad died, complete with spending a number of years doing radio, tv, newspaper stuff. It really is a *lot* better now than it was back then.

And I believe that trend *will* continue, not just for pagans, but for people of other nonChristian belief systems, and atheism as well.

Comment #26: Broce  on  11/03  at  11:16 PM

Frankly, Hagan’s response made me think of hockey: a bodycheck so perfect, so sweet and so shattering that one doesn’t give a damn who’s on who’s time.  One just winces and laughs at the same time, saying, “Whoa!” out loud.

Exactly.

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/03  at  11:24 PM

Tis true, Broce.  I mean, at least back in high school I had Buffy and all the related pop cultural wiccan/pagan overflow.  It might have been completely silly, but it’s more than anyone had in the 70’s.  And it was after the “satan worshipping ritual abuse” controversy of the 80’s was long since over.

Comment #28: The Opoponax  on  11/03  at  11:29 PM

“And by “secular humanist”, I mean someone whose political philosophy is humanist and her belief about church and state is the secular one, which is pro-separation/anti-establishment.  I have confidence that she’s basically with us.  I like to argue with religious liberals about religion and tease out how they have inevitable conflicts, but at the end of the day, I think most religious liberals are pure allies and secular humanists in their political views, even if they rate god higher than humans in their personal philosophy.  We all have various religious beliefs on this site, for instance, but we get along famously.”

Gracias. Lovely post, and gracious to those who disagree with you on that topic. Thrilling to see someone whose opinion I respect but sometimes differ from write something like this.

Comment #29: ms. ann  on  11/03  at  11:35 PM

Oh, Broce, I wasn’t saying that it’s still horrible.  Our high priest didn’t get promoted to petty officer first class until he had been retired for a few years because they denied it to him due to his practice of “Witcha.”  Things have changed just between his time of service and ours.

I consider the pentacle a symbol, but not the only symbol, if that makes sense.  I really do qualify more and more as simply panentheist than pagan as time passes, and, while its meaning is important to me, it’s just another microcosm.

See, Opopo, I halfway resent the entertainment stuff because it’s misinforming (not intentionally, but more on a why-are-people-stupid level), but I see your point.  I also adore Harry Potter and think that anyone who associates any of those things with the religion I actually practice is quite possibly too stupid to be allowed to reproduce.

Then I remember that my mother associates them, and she’s not stupid.  There should just be anti-Chick Tracts that people disseminate among the masses.  ::sighs::

Meanwhile, I will be happy to see tolerance for *everyone* become more common.

Comment #30: INTPagan  on  11/03  at  11:43 PM

Despite my atheism, I wasn’t offended by Hagan’s response—calling a Sunday school teacher and a church elder an atheism IS an insult by THEIR lights, which is all that’s required here.

Actually, for the lawsuit, I think the sticking point is that the atheist charge was an easily disproven lie and that it was spread with clear malicious intent.

And in the context of a campaign, the combination of the lie and the hypocrisy is like a nice slow pitch over the plate…it’s a crime not to knock that out of the park.

Comment #31: Dorothy  on  11/03  at  11:53 PM

  It might have been completely silly, but it’s more than anyone had in the 70’s.

This is true. I heard “A witch? Like in fairy tales or the crazy women they burned? Ha. Ha. You dont look green, where’s your wart?”

And like INTP, I lean more to panentheist these days, but with a more than usual dose of ancestor veneration (what can I say, my mother’s a genealogist, I know who my ancestors *are*)

I agree about some of the entertainment stuff. I went to see “The Craft” with another witch when it first came out and we basically left the theatre with our purses over our faces. OTOH as silly as much of it is and as much misinformation as is in it…its still some information getting out there, and it does cause people to ask questions and think.

Maybe atheists need their own “The Craft” or “Harry Potter”?? (I’ve never seen Buffy - I’m old)

Comment #32: Broce  on  11/04  at  12:01 AM

I’m with Dorothy et al—the goodness or badness of atheism is really irrelevant to the charge and countercharge being made. It’s about the fact that Liddy Dole is a damned liar while representing herself as an honorable believing christian.

People like PZ get way too caught up with the notion that those last three words are necessarily an oxymoron, imo, and lose sight of the fact that, irrational or not, the belief system does lay some fairly serious behavioral constraints on its adherence, with “thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” right up in the top 10. (In the same vein, I like to say that if there is a hell, Jesse Helms is in it…)

Comment #33: paul  on  11/04  at  12:04 AM

It really doesn’t matter.  Apparently all Obama voters are going to burn in hellfire eternal anyway:

Catholic Bishop: Voters Who Support Pro-Abortion Obama Put Salvation at Risk

by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com Editor
November 3, 2008


Kansas City, MO (LifeNews.com)—In one of the most far-reaching statements about Catholics and the presidential election, Bishop Robert Finn of Kansas City has urged Catholics not to vote for Barack Obama. Bishop Finn says Catholics who support him put their souls at risk by supporting Obama’s “fanatical” stance on abortion.

The comments came in an interview with KCMO 710’s Chris Stigall.

“There are Catholics listening to me right now who are thinking strongly or are convinced that they will vote for Barack Obama. What would you say to them?” Stigall asked the bishop.

“I would say, give consideration to your eternal salvation,” Finn responded.

“To vote for a person who has a fanatical determination to not only support abortion as it is now but to remove all limitations on it through the Freedom of Choice Act and to extend it without any recourse—throwing out all of the efforts of citizens over the last 35 years to place reasonable limits on abortion,” Bishop Finn explained.

“By voting for a person who has expressed his determination to do this to Planned Parenthood and NARAL—you make yourself a participant in the act of abortion and you mustn’t do it because your eternal salvation is tied up with that important choice,” Bishop Finn said.

Following his appearance on the radio program, Bishop Finn appeared on the Mike Gallagher Show on another station.

Gallagher asked: “In good conscience, how can a Catholic vote for Senator Obama?”

Finn replied, “I don’t think any Catholic can in good conscience,” he said. About Obama, Finn added, “In his brief career, he has collected a very consistent record of a kind of fanaticism for abortion.”

Comment #34: Beast  on  11/04  at  12:06 AM

Then I remember that my mother associates them, and she’s not stupid

If it makes you feel better, my mother raised 4 children. 3 of us are some sort of paganish thing or other. My brother is a Congregationalist Christian. We refer to him as the “black sheep” of the family. wink

Comment #35: Broce  on  11/04  at  12:06 AM

Yes, Dorothy, all of that is true, but is also still gives the idea that “atheist” is a perjorative and, while it was certainly thrown in that manner, that does not mean that is truly is or should be taken as one.  I think that an even more powerful statement to make for the atheists that Dole was attacking by proxy would have been to say, “No, but so what if I was?”

I also know it was impossible in NC, again, but I think it would have been a powerful message.

With religion, I don’t know that I would be so nonpracticing, frankly, if it weren’t for the fact that I left an awesome community (in NC, no less), to go to TX, and I have not found one here.  ::shrugs::  I just think that spirituality is about more than lighting the right candles at the right times; it seems to me that, if your beliefs are that strong that you are surrounded by divinity, that you should be open to just appreciate it in the world around you, and so I’m at relative peace with not practicing.  After all, all I have to do is have great sex with someone I love and ding!  I have practiced my religion.  So the worst threat I pose to government with my beliefs is that I could totally mandate that everyone has to have great sex.

Maybe I SHOULD involve my religion in government more.

Comment #36: INTPagan  on  11/04  at  12:07 AM

Dude, Beast, I was going to Hell LONG before I voted for Obama; do you have any real news for me?

Comment #37: INTPagan  on  11/04  at  12:09 AM

I halfway resent the entertainment stuff because it’s misinforming (not intentionally, but more on a why-are-people-stupid level), but I see your point.

Oh, I agree—I especially groan at Buffy’s notion of witchcraft, which is like exactly the opposite of 90% of neo-paganism out there today.  Ditto for Harry Potter, though at least Rowling didn’t make the associations with “Wicca” that Whedon tended to slide into. 

But it’s as Broce said - I’ve never had people thinking I’m going to put a curse on them (though I do own a real live voodoo doll, as a curiosity ONLY, I swear) or practice animal sacrifice or summon demons.  Even the satanism connection is made relatively rarely, and even then it’s in jest.  That said, I’m not easily pegged as a pagan and don’t bring it up often in front of other people, not so much in a broom closet sort of way but just because, c’mon, I live in Brooklyn.  I’m not a hippie.  I don’t go to Ren Faire.  My outward persona is just about the opposite of what people think of when they think “pagan”.

Comment #38: The Opoponax  on  11/04  at  12:15 AM

So the worst threat I pose to government with my beliefs is that I could totally mandate that everyone has to have great sex.

Hey now! Im fifty, female and single. According to the powers that be, that makes me disqualified for great sex (or any sex). I’d be pissed to have a law mandating great sex pass NOW, when the culture has declared me past all that. wink

Comment #39: broce  on  11/04  at  12:17 AM

I just think that spirituality is about more than lighting the right candles at the right times; it seems to me that, if your beliefs are that strong that you are surrounded by divinity, that you should be open to just appreciate it in the world around you, and so I’m at relative peace with not practicing.

OK, I’m going to get a bit The Craft here (and seriously piss off all the No Supernatural Anything, Ever crowd) and tell you that, at the Very Moment that I read the words “more than lighting the right candles at the right times”, the wax in the candles I’d lit for Obama and his grandmother started burbling audibly as it dripped onto the plate.  Spooky, eh? 

In all seriousness, hells to the yeah.  And know that you are not alone—those very questions are the ones I’ve been contemplating for the past few years, alone in my solitary half-assed-ritualist bubble.

Comment #40: The Opoponax  on  11/04  at  12:21 AM

My outward persona is just about the opposite of what people think of when they think “pagan”.

Mine too, which has caused a great deal of consternation over the years. “But…you a nice short hair style….you wear jeans and business suits. You dont put your make up on with a trowel, and you almost never wear jewelry! You cant be pagan!”

And in my younger days, I was often asked if I was going to put a curse on someone. Especially guys would ask this.

But as Ive noted, you can make a difference. Years ago when I lived in Los Angeles, I did used to wear a pentacle. One of the women I worked with was apparently freaked out by this, though we’d worked together for six months before she noticed it. “But…I always thought you were a *nice* person!” The boss called me into her office and instructed me not to wear my pentacle anymore. I smiled very politely and said I hadnt realized there was a rule about religious jewelry and gee, wasnt it too bad all those people wearing crosses were going to have to give them up, that I knew how important that was to some folks.  “After all, I know you’d never make a rule that applied only to people of one religion - you would never discriminate that way. That would be a really bad move for the company and I know you’re a much better manager than to put the company at risk that way”

I never took off the pentacle and the issue was never raised again. Yes, I had a promotion blocked, and I suspect that was a factor, but as I was on my way out to a better job, I really didnt care.

Comment #41: Broce  on  11/04  at  12:23 AM

I’m with Dorothy et al—the goodness or badness of atheism is really irrelevant to the charge and countercharge being made. It’s about the fact that Liddy Dole is a damned liar while representing herself as an honorable believing christian.

I would have a little more sympathy with PZ’s position if the commercial didn’t have the Hagan soundalike saying, “There is no God.”  That’s going into libel territory if you’re trying to mislead people into thinking Hagan said something she did not.

Comment #42: Mnemosyne  on  11/04  at  12:24 AM

Dude, Beast, I was going to Hell LONG before I voted for Obama; do you have any real news for me?

INTPagan on 11/03 at 10:09 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Only that we’re having a party at the Lake O’Fire.  I’m making my delicious salsas and hummus.  Bring chips.

Comment #43: Beast  on  11/04  at  12:25 AM

People like PZ get way too caught up with the notion that those last three words are necessarily an oxymoron, imo, and lose sight of the fact that, irrational or not, the belief system does lay some fairly serious behavioral constraints on its adherence, with “thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” right up in the top 10.

Well, it’s not like we’ve ever seen any of them actually follow their own rules.  Trying to force others to obey them?  Sure.  But actually live by their own code?  Nah, they’re forgiven for all sins, past, present and future.

“If I’m wrong, I’ll convert on my deathbed.”

Comment #44: stogoe  on  11/04  at  12:34 AM

I’m perfectly willing to thrash out respect for atheists with religious liberals later,

I’m a liberal atheist, and I can’t think of a single time, ever, anywhere, that religious liberals gave atheists any grief whatsoever. Religious conservatives, well, duh. The apolitical religious, sure. But not even once from anyone remotely progressive, and given that I read ten million blogs a day, that’s really saying something.

The only time I’ve ever heard liberals give atheists a hard time is when I myself, or other atheists just like me, do it. I’d rather hand out Chick tracts at a Klan meeting than listen to the Myerses or Dawkins or Hitchenses of the world give their sermons, although those tend to be better than their internet imitators (by which I don’t mean our gracious hosts) who often come off like Ayn Randians without the charm or sophistication.

In other words, the kind of “atheists” who treat it like a dogmatic faith that other people have to be converted to, preferably by weapons-grade sneering. If there’s a God after all, He can feel free to save me from that in my otherwise open-minded blogs, thank Him very much.

Comment #45: Matt  on  11/04  at  12:35 AM

I’d rather hand out Chick tracts at a Klan meeting than listen to the Myerses or Dawkins or Hitchenses of the world give their sermons

Fundamentalists of any stripe, from evangelical Christians, to that segment of the pagan population, to atheists…they all annoy me. Fundamentalism is essentially a closed loop which does not allow for variety of experience or idea.

Comment #46: broce  on  11/04  at  12:37 AM

Well, it’s not like we’ve ever seen any of them actually follow their own rules.  Trying to force others to obey them?  Sure.  But actually live by their own code?  Nah, they’re forgiven for all sins, past, present and future.

Plz to remember that Christianity is not, in fact, the ONLY religion ever.  And, yes, there are in fact a great many members of a great many religions who do follow the rules of their chosen faith.

Comment #47: The Opoponax  on  11/04  at  12:44 AM

How many posts and we don’t have a circular firing squad yet? Let me fix that. The overlooked tragedy of this story is that anyone at all is listening to the Godless Americans PAC. They are an offshoot of American Atheists, Inc., who advocate a philosophically untenable position of strong atheism and shitty scholarship lifted from Acharya S. We need loud, angry atheists, but we need them to not be idiots.

If anyone in politics would like to do right by atheists, get in touch with the Secular Coalition for America. Lori Lipman Brown will not bomb your career like Ellen Johnson will.

Comment #48: Grammar RWA  on  11/04  at  12:49 AM

we have to remember that politicians are there to express the will of the voters, and when your opinion is that of a small minority, you’re pissing in the wind to demand that politicians actively resist the voters and take a leadership position on your issue.  Kay Hagan’s job is to run for Senate and then be a Senator, Disco Ball willing.  Her job is not to stake out a leadership position for atheists, especially when she isn’t one.

This is EXACTLY how I feel about third parties like the Greens (and, in the interest of balance, the Libertarians), btw.

Comment #49: MH  on  11/04  at  12:58 AM

People like PZ get way too caught up with the notion that those last three words are necessarily an oxymoron, imo, and lose sight of the fact that, irrational or not, the belief system does lay some fairly serious behavioral constraints on its adherence, with “thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor” right up in the top 10.

Sure, but Hagan’s last three words aren’t “against thy neighbor” but “against fellow Christians.” That was unnecessary, and there’s the implication that it’d be fine to lie about Hagan if she weren’t a Christian.

Hagan just as easily could have said “my campaign is about creating jobs and fixing the economy, not bearing false witness against our neighbors.” She already spent 2/3 of the of the ad talking about how she’s a Christian, correcting the record. She could have ended on a note that still indicted Dole’s “un-Christian” hypocrisy without setting aside Christians as a protected class.

ut PZ’s blog is not a North Carolinian ballot booth and there’s no reason he shouldn’t call out “our” side when they act worse than a Republican (although, granted, an unusually non-evil Republican).

This. Something like 95% of advice to atheists is just “shut up already.” PZ is often wrong but it’s still important that he’s brave.

Comment #50: Grammar RWA  on  11/04  at  01:12 AM

I’d rather hand out Chick tracts at a Klan meeting than listen to the Myerses or Dawkins or Hitchenses of the world give their sermons

Fundamentalists of any stripe, from evangelical Christians, to that segment of the pagan population, to atheists…they all annoy me. Fundamentalism is essentially a closed loop which does not allow for variety of experience or idea.

Blah blah blah. None of those men are “fundamentalists.” All three are agnostic atheists. All three are conditional. All three acknowledge the necessity of allying with progressive theists.

And that was the most generous possible reply, ignoring the fact that there’s no such thing as “fundamentalism” for atheism anyway, as this word denotes a set of doctrines that one must believe. Know your history.

Comment #51: Grammar RWA  on  11/04  at  01:17 AM

And that was the most generous possible reply, ignoring the fact that there’s no such thing as “fundamentalism” for atheism anyway, as this word denotes a set of doctrines that one must believe.

I do know my history, thank you. What I was getting at here was a definition of fundamentalism which expands beyond your “set of doctrines” and includes those atheists who are intolerant of theism and come across with the same “holier than thou” superior kind of attitude often seen in fundamentalist theists. That would include thinking that religions need to disappear, that people who follow religions are inferior/stupid, etc.

FTR I was raised pagan and sit somewhere between atheism, panentheism and agnostocism myself.

Comment #52: Broce  on  11/04  at  01:22 AM

What I was getting at here was a definition of fundamentalism which expands beyond your “set of doctrines” and includes those atheists who are intolerant of theism and come across with the same “holier than thou” superior kind of attitude often seen in fundamentalist theists.

Then use an accurate word. “Asshole atheists” is the PC term we prefer.

Any and all comparisons of atheists with fundamentalists, and/or coupled with adjectives such as “shrill” or “dogmatic,” or sophomoric observations of our supposed “faith,” are quite obviously more of the same message: “shut the fuck up already, atheists.”

Comment #53: Grammar RWA  on  11/04  at  01:31 AM

Look at “free market fundamentalism” for a usage guide. It’s not just laissez-faire advocacy. It’s an ends-to-the-means reasoning, taking as dogma that free markets solve all problems. What follows is ritualistic: if there was a problem, it wasn’t because of a free market; if anything, it was probably due to insufficient freedom in the market.

So when you find atheists who literally insist that atheists can do no wrong, you might be philosophically justified in calling them “fundamentalists.” Pragmatically, you ought to find another term anyway, because you’re still picking on a beleaguered minority and furthering the meme that it’s acceptable to leave us out of political and social discussion.

Comment #54: Grammar RWA  on  11/04  at  01:40 AM

and includes those atheists who are intolerant of theism

Rubbish anyway. None of the men you indicted are so disposed. Let me know when they start calling for the abolition of the First Amendment so that the government can start bulldozing churches.

Comment #55: Grammar RWA  on  11/04  at  01:45 AM

Let me know when they start calling for the abolition of the First Amendment so that the government can start bulldozing churches.

I’m a hug Dawkins fan, but that’s not really fair, because the charge was being “intolerant of theism”, which isn’t the same thing as removing the 1st Amendment rights from theists. I am intolerant of homophobia, while at the same time fully supporting free speech rights for homophobes.

Comment #56: MH  on  11/04  at  02:02 AM

hug = huge

Comment #57: MH  on  11/04  at  02:03 AM

Great post, Amanda. By the standards if this board I guess I’m somewhat religious but I don’t see how religion can or should be a factor in political discourse anywhere, and certainly not in a society made up of people following all kinds of belief systems, theist or atheist or something inbetween.

But if there’s bad feeling on the site, it’s because you never seem to make the distinction between liberal theists and fundamentalists in these posts, except in a grudging way. The vast majority of those liberal theists can’t abide wingnuts either, but who’s going to want to support someone who’s insulting their beliefs and demonising them, while at the same time expecting their agreement? You wouldn’t.

Comment #58: Rockit  on  11/04  at  02:05 AM

What I was getting at here was a definition of fundamentalism which expands beyond your “set of doctrines” and includes those atheists who are intolerant of theism and come across with the same “holier than thou” superior kind of attitude often seen in fundamentalist theists.

In the interest of getting things done yes there is that. It’s kind of like saying “I hate bigots.”

But I also have a problem with this argument, because it feels like automatically asking for parity when there is none. Religion and reason are both organizing principles for society, but reason is a better form because it’s conclusions can be stated simply and without hand waving.

Take the difference between a religious feminism and a reason based feminism. “Reason Feminism” says discrimination against any set of people is harmful to society, and here’s how that applies to women. There’s a logical series of steps involved, that we can critique and make better.

“Religious Feminism” wouldn’t need all that, because the Over Goddess Hectatha conferred the 9 tenants of Reformed DiscoBallitarianism unto the ancient Sumerians. Tenant six says clearly, “[...shalt not…] take thy sister’s keeper for a ride.” We must fight and proselytize until everyone on the planet agrees with us or has been smitten by our god.

As far as sillyness factor, any religion is kind of silly by nature. You believe in an invisible extradimensional being who controls your fate. That’s kind of silly. Quit being so offended over me giggling.

Comment #59: banisteriopsis  on  11/04  at  02:06 AM

Oh those mean old fundamentalist atheists.  Insisting that their version of atheism based on a fundamental disbelief in deities regardless of current cultural mores is the correct atheism.  Which is in comparison to the methodist atheism which is based on a methodical study of non-existant atheist scripture. 

Words have meaning, just because fundamentalist christians are a bunch of lunatics doesn’t mean that you can attach the word fundamentalist to any noun and attach the same lunacy to the group you are trying to describe.  This is especially true when you are describing a group of people who are only considered a group because of their lack of belief in all deities.

Comment #60: commissarjs  on  11/04  at  02:08 AM

...and seriously piss off all the No Supernatural Anything, Ever crowd)

Sorry, I couldn’t hear you above the roar of the No Proof Ever crowd.

Comment #61: Thom  on  11/04  at  02:30 AM

I’m a hug Dawkins fan, but that’s not really fair, because the charge was being “intolerant of theism”, which isn’t the same thing as removing the 1st Amendment rights from theists. I am intolerant of homophobia, while at the same time fully supporting free speech rights for homophobes.

Ignoring that “intolerant” does not equal “fundamentalist,” these men are not even “intolerant.” I hope I can fairly presume that your intolerance of homophobia means you believe that for any nonzero quantity of homophobia in the world, it’d be a better place with even less. But we’re talking about people atheists who see a fine future for theists, and hope just for some shift in the numbers. Off the top of my head, that wicked PZ Myers speaks up for the religious:

This is too close to blacklisting people for their personal affiliations, and it should not be acceptable. I agree that being an ordained minister implies that the guy is fairly deeply into weird old woo, but surprise: people are really good, for the most part, at holding a lot of disparate ideas in their heads, and people trained as scientists are especially good, for the most part, at keeping the spiritual blather out of their science. Keep in mind that generic religiosity can be rationalized to avoid conflict with specific issues in science (in ways that are deplorably vague and pointless, of course); this isn’t like discovering that Reiss was a card-carrying creationist with an a priori commitment to anti-science. If we’re going to start kicking scientists out of organizations because they have some bit of irrationality in their lives, we’re all going to be in trouble.

Comment #62: Grammar RWA  on  11/04  at  02:44 AM

“Well, it’s not like we’ve ever seen any of them actually follow their own rules.  Trying to force others to obey them?  Sure.  But actually live by their own code?  Nah, they’re forgiven for all sins, past, present and future.”

As a lifelong Lutheran, I would like to say that I try damn hard to live it, and I find it wholly unnecessary and offensive that I be painted with the same brush as Dole. My faith informs my actions as well as my politics, which is why I am pro-choice, pro-gay marriage (especially -my- gay marriage) and by extension pro-privacy (which is the label which ought to be applied to both of the former positions), among others. The people, like Dole, Dobson, and the others, who get all bejiggety with the way other people live their lives are what we like to call hypocrites, and if you want to go all Gospels on them, Pharisees.

@Llelldorin: If the moment comes that atheists/agnostics/any other not-Christians are in physical danger from the government, they will have to get through me and a thirty ought six to get to any of you. My fiancee is thoroughly agnostic as are the vast majority of my friends, and hell if I’m not going down with y’all.

Comment #63: Ivy  on  11/04  at  02:54 AM

these men are not even “intolerant.”

Preemptive clarification: Hitchens is intolerant, but not of theism per se.

Comment #64: Grammar RWA  on  11/04  at  02:57 AM

whatever anyones’s beliefs are, it should be clear that Hagan’s denigration of non-belivers was completely inappropriate. the message could have been made without the smears. am i really seeing her being defended here? the mind boggles.

Comment #65: redwards  on  11/04  at  03:28 AM

I knew the “poor me” atheists would show up eventually.

Oh well.

Comment #66: Mnemosyne  on  11/04  at  03:31 AM

I knew the “poor me” atheists would show up eventually.

What seperates a “poor me” atheist from a “fundamentalist” atheist? Neither will shut the fuck up like a “good” atheist should, but there must be some dividing line.

I never have understood why theists get so bent out of shape over people laughing at their religion. Atheists are gonna burn, burn, burn anyway, so let ‘em yammer on about “reason” and “proof” and such nonsense.

Comment #67: Matt T.  on  11/04  at  03:50 AM

“Preemptive clarification: Hitchens is intolerant, but not of theism per se”
word.
the guy seems to have an awful case of “i-and-only-i know best”
because what ANY political movement or party needs is another Daddy.

Comment #68: redwards  on  11/04  at  03:53 AM

“I knew the “poor me” atheists would show up eventually.
Oh well. “
as opposed to the poor-me women, or poor-me POC. because atheists have no right to a seat at the table? what a weirdly backward attitude.

Comment #69: redwards  on  11/04  at  03:56 AM

because atheists have no right to a seat at the table? what a weirdly backward attitude.

‘Course they do, so long as they shut the fuck up. At the very least, an atheist who doesn’t want to be seen as a “fundamentalist atheist” or “poor me atheist” should pay lip service to religion, because that’s all that really matters. Shut up and pretend to pray, dammit!

Comment #70: Matt T.  on  11/04  at  04:10 AM

whatever anyones’s beliefs are, it should be clear that Hagan’s denigration of non-belivers was completely inappropriate. the message could have been made without the smears. am i really seeing her being defended here? the mind boggles.

I’ll defend her intentions. I expect that like most Christians in the majority-Christian USA, she’s not accustomed to speaking up for non-Christians, and probably didn’t realize that her closing was offensive. She was also under pressure to come up with a quick reply. I would accept that she misspoke, and I would welcome an apology, though I’m not optimistic enough to hope for one.

She’s not perfect, she’s better than Dole, and we ought to expect better than Hagan. This really isn’t a big deal in the long run. Much worse is her backasswards stance on telecom immunity for Fourth Amendment violations. That she shares with Obama, for whom I’m voting. Out, damned spot.

Comment #71: Grammar RWA  on  11/04  at  04:27 AM

I don’t get this pragmatic crap.  Would you feel the same way if Dole was running ads accusing Hagan of associating with homosexuals and perhaps implying she’s a homosexual herself?  As an atheist in the Democratic party I often like we atheists get even less respect than the gays; hell, there are more open gays in congress than there are open atheists.

Comment #72: Dave EK  on  11/04  at  04:41 AM

“Did I just hear you lying about me?” Slap. “I did!  I did!  I just heard you just now outright lying about me!  You swine!” Slap, slap, slap. “I’ve been a Christian all my life and now you get on teevee and claim I’m not because I don’t happen to support your crooked party’s tax cuts for millionaires?”  Slap, trip, kick, stomp.  “I’ll get my foot out of your ass after you say ‘Uncle’! And I’m sending my lawyers to take all your precious money, too, sleazy lying sleaze pig.” Stomp, stomp, stomp.

So beautiful!  No whining, no equivocation, none of this Kerryesque “your baseless and scurrilous accusations are beneath my dignity to refute,” just take the Red Ball Express to Fist City.  I wish I lived in North Carolina; that’s the kind of Christian this atheist would love to vote for.

Comment #73: W. Kiernan  on  11/04  at  09:04 AM

This isn’t a formal logical debate and name calling isn’t simply poor taste… it’s an election! I’d prefer you hit back, even if I’m in the firing line. Elegant logical replies are for elegant logical people… this is NC just win the damned election.

Comment #74: Tatarize  on  11/04  at  09:39 AM

As far as sillyness factor, any religion is kind of silly by nature. You believe in an invisible extradimensional being who controls your fate. That’s kind of silly. Quit being so offended over me giggling.

I suspect Im being misunderstood here, which is probably because of my own inability to be as clear as I might. I dont believe in an invisible extradimensional being who controls my fate.

However, my pagan roots are definitely showing here - part of the beliefs I grew up with includes a belief that paganism or any other -ism including atheism may or may not be correct, and it doesnt matter a damn. We all come to our particular beliefs based on the evidence or lack thereof which we consider to be important, and tend to overlook that which dissents from our perspective. None of those beliefs are inherently “right” or “wrong.” None of us *knows*....we’re all making our best guess based on what we see/think/read/feel/believe. As a result of that perspective I didnt consider my theistic beliefs to be “the right way to belive” and I don’t consider my current lack of belief “the right way to believe” either. They’re my way to believe and they are right *for* me.

Whether it be atheists who giggle at those who believe in deity of some kind or religious folk who tut-tut the beliefs of atheists, I personally believe it’s not necessary to feel my beliefs are “the right way” or “the only *real reasoned” way to believe, so I dont find it necessary to giggle or tut-tut. To me it always smacks of insecurity when a Christian tells me I have to convert to their way of thinking, and it smacks of an equal insecurity when an atheist laughs at a Christian for being “misguided” enough to believe.

Comment #75: Broce  on  11/04  at  11:01 AM

I personally believe it’s not necessary to feel my beliefs are “the right way” or “the only *real reasoned” way to believe, so I dont find it necessary to giggle or tut-tut.

I don’t understand how you can see your own beliefs as “right”, or even “your best guess”, and not see them also as “the right way.” What does it mean to be right, then? Words have meaning.

Unless you believe that the beliefs you hold are wrong; in which case, why do you hold them? Isn’t truth better than lies? Isn’t it better to be right than wrong?

I don’t understand how you can take a position about things that do or don’t exist in the universe - something that is objective, which is true for all persons if it is in fact true - but not think your own position is correct. And if it’s correct for you, how can it be incorrect for everyone else? Either religious belief is factual, or it’s counterfactual. It can’t be one for some and the other for others. I can’t say that, for me, Lincoln is the capital of Nebraska, but for you, it may be Omaha. Lincoln is the capital of Nebraska for both of us because we inhabit the same universe.

Comment #76: Chet  on  11/04  at  12:12 PM

We’ll fight that battle another day, there’s too much at stake right now.

The problem is that a peculiar flavour of fire-and-brimstone, Old Time religion has crept into what should be a secular institution.

I’m an atheist, as were my ancestors before me for a few hundred years.  I’m not the ‘in your face’ type like PZ because I was brought up as a live-and-let-live person.  I won’t push you until you try to push me, in other words.  I really don’t care what people believe as long as they don’t try to make me believe it either directly or indirectly.

Religion is a private matter, as far as I’m concerned.  Did I care that we said the lord’s prayer in school every morning when I was a kid in primary school?  Nah, starting in kindergarten, I just felt sorry for my friends who thought somebody was always looking over their shoulder.  I had my own conscience and sense of ethics, still do.  My brother cared and he and his friends refused to attend school until it stopped.  It did.  They don’t say it any more thanks to a bunch of seven-year-old civil rights activists LOL.

It’s all this public display of collective hysteria that must end.  I don’t care if my political rep thinks Zeus and the gang are manning the controls or pays homage to Dick Dawkins, as long as they can separate folklore from reality when making decisions that impact everyone.

Comment #77: Caveat  on  11/04  at  12:35 PM

I don’t understand how you can see your own beliefs as “right”, or even “your best guess”, and not see them also as “the right way.” What does it mean to be right, then? Words have meaning.

And, with this, Chet, you’re showing a fundamental misunderstanding of non-monotheistic religions.  Christianity (and not even in all of its forms, but Christianity as we usually see it) is black and white like that.  You assume that, because you’ve been surrounded by Christianity (of the loud fundamentalist sort), everyone’s religion is like that.

For an example, I might take Brown Trail, turn on Forest Ridge, and hit Pipeline to go home.  You might take Pipeline straight down.  They’re both correct ways, and one does not nullify the other.  There is not only one way to be right, and, ultimately, the problem with arguing over whether or not there is a supernatural is that you are arguing with people who base their beliefs on faith, which means, essentially, belief without concrete evidence.  Sure, we don’t have scientific evidence for what we believe, but we have had personal experiences, whether you believe them or not, whether you boil them down to simple chemical reactions or not, that have caused us to believe is something beyond what science has currently quantified.  Does it mean that there absolutely 100% is a God and you’d better acknowledge it or you will burn in Hell/have a worse life/not get rich/lose football games?  No; it means that we believe in one (or in something of the sort), regardless of whether you do or not.  We simply believe that you take a different road, and we really don’t care what road you take, and it baffles us when you do care what road we take.

A basic part of the belief systems of most people who are pantheistic or panentheistic in beliefs (and most neopagans fit that) is that Deity is not overly concerned about whether or not it is recognized.  It’s simply there.  If we choose to acknowledge it to our edification, more’s the better for us as individuals, but it isn’t required, and, what’s more, it isn’t required for people to acknowledge something they don’t feel exists to have full, satisfying lives because, frankly, that’s stupid.  I don’t want atheists to acknowledge a deity because they don’t feel that there is one, and what a big fucking child Deity would be if it had to have your worship to feel validated.  I don’t have to have the acknowledgment of someone across the world who has never seen or heard of me to feel valid, and I expect at least my level of basic comprehension from any deity worth its salt.

We don’t believe in a Hell for people to go to, so we’re not concerned about their immortal souls, so we have no reason to proselytize.  We don’t believe that you’re going to suffer for not believing what we do, or that anyone is.  We choose to believe what we do because it enriches our lives, not because we feel like we have to.  It’s true that a fundamental belief in something beyond us is hard-wired into some people (I honestly believe there is a genetic component, whether there is deity or not, and would be interested in seeing the evolutionary benefits of faith), but that does not mean that we have to acknowledge that in the same ways, or that we particularly care if other people have the same need to do so.  Live and let live.  That’s why you tend to get something between bewilderment and offense from the more spiritual-not-religious sort of progressives when you try to lump them in with monotheists.  You have no idea what you’re talking about.  We don’t get offended because you think our beliefs are silly; we get offended because you’re speaking from an uninformed viewpoint about something you don’t understand (and because sometimes it takes a step from calling us silly to calling us morons who are a liability).  It’s the equivalent of idiots who blather about how atheists have no reason to love their families or not go on killing sprees without spirituality.  We don’t love our families because of our spirituality, either; we makes choices based on the same rationale that you do, and religion is something that simply enriches our lives.  Why on earth you’re capable of understanding that you don’t treat people with respect because of a God but are incapable of understanding that we do not treat people with respect because of a God is beyond me.  I am not a progressive because I’m a pagan.  I was a libertarian as a pagan, and I moved on to being a progressive.  My boyfriend is a progressive and an atheist, and I don’t question his motivations.  He pays me the same courtesy. 

That’s why I don’t think we need to represent atheist or pagan or Christian or Muslim interests in government, period.  We need to represent people’s interests, and let their spiritural lives be their own personal choice with zero government support.

Comment #78: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/04  at  12:38 PM

Caveat FTW. 

I find it very difficult to deal with when, at the daycare I work at, they make the kids pray before meals even if they don’t want to, because, personally, I could give a rat’s ass if their parents think they should be made to pray at meals - if they don’t want to pray then it’s not our place to force them to acknowledge something they don’t want to, whether it’s temporary or permanent.

Then again, I refuse to lead the kids in prayer before meals anyway and they know and understand that.

Comment #79: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/04  at  12:40 PM

Would you feel the same way if Dole was running ads accusing Hagan of associating with homosexuals and perhaps implying she’s a homosexual herself?

And Hagan’s response is “How dare you compare me to an unnatural pervert?!  That’s bearing false witness against your fellow straight!”

I feel certain that gay rights advocates would be less than thrilled with this response, no matter how false the original accusation was.  I’d be pissed right alongside them just out of solidarity, never mind that it wasn’t my ox being gored.

This type of comparison (although using an even more emotionally charged division) is precisely why PZ referred to Hagan’s response as “mighty white of you”.

Comment #80: Chris  on  11/04  at  12:56 PM

What seperates a “poor me” atheist from a “fundamentalist” atheist? Neither will shut the fuck up like a “good” atheist should, but there must be some dividing line.

We’re not asking you to shut the fuck up; we’re asking you to not insult wide swaths of people about whom you may know very little.  There’s a difference.  You can disagree with people without insulting them and throwing out inaccurate generalizations.

I never have understood why theists get so bent out of shape over people laughing at their religion. Atheists are gonna burn, burn, burn anyway, so let ‘em yammer on about “reason” and “proof” and such nonsense.

All religion!=Christianity.  I don’t see what is so hard to understand about this.  Why do you care what other people believe if they don’t impose it on you?  And why are you offended that they get offended when you don’t pay them the same courtesy?  I don’t think you’re going to Hell, and I don’t particularly care what you believe except that you (or maybe not you, but the people we get bent out of shape about) insist on poking at people who really don’t bother you except by disagreeing on something that, to all intents and purposes, is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

You don’t think we’re going to Hell, and we’re not particularly intent on our beliefs having anything to do with our government, so what is it about us that is up your craw so much that you have to insult a group of ideological allies?  Show us respect; if we’re progressive then we generally pay you at least that much courtesy, and I don’t think it’s crazy to ask for that in return.

Comment #81: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/04  at  02:17 PM

I don’t particularly care what you believe except that you (or maybe not you, but the people we get bent out of shape about) insist on poking at people who really don’t bother you except by disagreeing on something that, to all intents and purposes, is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

The problem is that merely being<i> an atheist is regarded as poking at people. It may seem to you that this disagreement is meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but that is precisely the expression of religious privilege. It doesn’t have to mean anything to you because you’ve got that privilege.

As for the quantum of knowledge required to insult a religion by saying it is nonsense and fantasy, I readily grant that you need to know something before making such dismissals. But as soon as you get to “There is a supernatural being that we might fairly call a god” we’ve reached that quantum as far as atheists are concerned. There’s no alternate path, no “maybe we’re all right” because we’ve already hit the single criterion for being an atheist: not believing in the existence of gods.

If that’s an issue—that people think that any god-belief is nonsense and fantasy (even if socially valuable or aesthetically pleasing nonsense and fantasy)—then you’re always going to have an issue with atheists and atheism since none will ever grant the truth of a god-belief without ceasing to be atheists. Lots of people take just this position, which is why, as I said before, that merely <i>being an atheist is considered poking at people.

Comment #82: Thom  on  11/05  at  12:00 AM

Thom - what you said isn’t relevant to anything at all that I said.  To give you more background in my earlier comments:

Live and let live.  That’s why you tend to get something between bewilderment and offense from the more spiritual-not-religious sort of progressives when you try to lump them in with monotheists…  We don’t get offended because you think our beliefs are silly; we get offended because you’re speaking from an uninformed viewpoint about something you don’t understand (and because sometimes it takes a step from calling us silly to calling us morons who are a liability).

I am not offended at people who thinks my beliefs are silly.  I think Scientologists are silly.  However, I don’t think they’re all necessarily stupid, nor do I think that any who might be progressive are a liability to progressive causes purely because they have different beliefs than me.  I am offended at being called stupid (“apes,” I believe, was the term used in the last thread - this topic has come up a lot lately) and being thought of as an enemy to issues that I care deeply about because I am a person, not because I am a theist.  I am not offended that you are an atheist, or offended if you think my beliefs are silly.  If I was, then I’d need to take a serious look at my faith anyway because it clearly wouldn’t be strong enough to withstand that, and maybe I would think about embracing atheism at that point since clearly it was pushing that button on me.  The best views you can hold personally are the ones you are willing to challenge with outside information and input, and I do not hold my faith to be an exception.

No.  I am offended if you think that I am subhuman or not a legitimate progressive purely because I do believe in something supernatural.  Otherwise go ahead and talk about the sky fairy and call me silly, as long as we can get together and drink and agree on some politics in the process.

Comment #83: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/05  at  12:34 PM

I have to laugh at the poster (way up near the top) who feels unwelcomed by the Democrat Party.

You should try being an Atheist.

From Amy Sullivan’s call for an Atheist purge from the party (which, incidentally, I am not part of), to Lori Lipman Brown being called an “Angry Atheist” by Leah Daughtry, CEO of the DNC in Denver, to her later having Bob Tiernan dragged off by the police for saying “I am a Democrat but I’m not a person of faith.  This looks like a church service to me and I never thought I would see the Democrats doing something like this.”  On your knees or we’ll have the police take you away.

But the thing that made sure that I didn’t vote for ANY Democrat down ticket was “Atheist wacko who want to make sure our children marry trees” bullshit.  FUCK YOU YOU NAZI MOTHERFUCKER.  I don’t even expect that shit from the farthest right evangelical christian, let alone a so called tolerant big tent liberal.

But that is the message we got from the Democrats.  SHUT THE FUCK UP AND PRAY OR ELSE.

I refuse.

Comment #84: teammarty  on  11/05  at  02:06 PM

Teammarty, you’ve got a legitimate beef, and I’m sorry.  They owe you better than that.

Comment #85: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/05  at  03:01 PM

What seperates a “poor me” atheist from a “fundamentalist” atheist? Neither will shut the fuck up like a “good” atheist should, but there must be some dividing line.

We’re not asking you to shut the fuck up; we’re asking you to not insult wide swaths of people about whom you may know very little.

Bullshit, INTP. Broce started throwing around this “fundamentalist atheist” bullshit for nothing of the sort. Mnemosyne shows up to mock us for objecting to that outrageous charge. It is nothing less than an attempt to silence us. We know, because we live it daily. So don’t start telling us what it means when you don’t have to live it.

Comment #86: Grammar RWA  on  11/06  at  11:07 AM

Here’s the thing, Grammar.

“Fundamentalist” has come to be a blanket term in our culture for a religious persuasion that insists on forcing itself upon others.  Not all Christians, or monotheists, are fundamentalists.  Some pagans are.  And some atheists, under this definition, are.  It may not be a textbook definition of the word, but, in the context, it’s effective.

The beef isn’t with atheists who live and let live and get prickly when you start forcing your beliefs on them; the beef is with the minority of atheists who insist that a) they know everything that is to be known about every religion ever due to interactions with Christians and b) anyone who disagrees with them on the existence of God MUST

Comment #87: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/06  at  12:04 PM

“Fundamentalist” has come to be a blanket term in our culture for a religious persuasion that insists on forcing itself upon others.

No, it’s become a blanket term for things the speaker doesn’t like.

Let’s talk about force. Where are the atheists demanding that the state use its power to outlaw religion? Where are the atheists tying religious people to fenceposts and beating them to death? Where are the atheists telling you that if you don’t convert to atheism, you’re going to have to leave the country, because this is an atheist nation founded on atheist principles?

“Fundamentalist” is a term of abuse. You don’t like the a person, so you call them a fundamentalist, so that other people won’t like them either. That’s all that’s going on here.

Comment #88: Grammar RWA  on  11/06  at  03:12 PM

Godsdamnit, I thought it had posted my whole post, but it didn’t.  I accidentally hit “enter” in the middle of typing, stopped it before it moved on, and then finished and posted everything.  I don’t think it posted everything.

To boil it all down, since it was hours ago and I really don’t feel like trying to figure out exactly what I wrote then, I said that the only atheists I take issue with are the ones who insist that anyone who disagrees with them about the existence of deity must disagree with them on everything else (or be waiting to turn on them), that I think that we crossed signals on the last thread where we tangled on this, that I’m sorry for any miscommunication that did happen, you seem to only take issue whenever you feel like you have been affronted rather than just attacking unprovoked (like Notorious did in the last thread about this), and this is a conversation that wouldn’t have to happen in an ideal political world anyway because religion+politics=stupid and nightmare, and I hate that people like Liddy Dole drag it into the issue in the first place because this isn’t a necessary conversation until someone dredges it up again.  The term “fundamentalist” is not being used because we dislike that you say there is no God; it’s because some people insist on insulting and degrading anyone who disagrees with them on it.

I never said that atheists as a whole, or even a majority, or even a large minority, were trying to take away anyone’s rights.  However, notably, I do not feel as though I should have to account for other theists who are assholes and are trying, since I am not trying to take away your rights, either, nor is anyone I am affiliated with.

It was a lot more eloquent, I swear.

Comment #89: INTPagan  on  11/06  at  07:57 PM

I think that we crossed signals on the last thread where we tangled on this, that I’m sorry for any miscommunication that did happen, you seem to only take issue whenever you feel like you have been affronted rather than just attacking unprovoked

I try to keep it that way, but I am unnecessarily rude sometimes. I really appreciate you saying this; thank you. I think you bring a helpful perspective to the conversations here and I wouldn’t want to drive you away, so I’m sorry that I’ve been a jerk to you.

The term “fundamentalist” is not being used because we dislike that you say there is no God; it’s because some people insist on insulting and degrading anyone who disagrees with them on it.

I know what you’re getting at, but simply saying “that belief is silly” or even “that belief is stupid” does not a fundamentalist make. Mockery is not necessarily bigotry, and mocking someone does not necessarily mean disliking that person.

Ever read George Lakoff? “Fundamentalist” evokes a particular frame. Fundamentalists have “fundamentals,” dogmas that are held to be true without evidence, without even the need for evidence. Fundamentalists’ dogmas are not up for debate. There is no possibility of discussion. A fundamentalist is someone you cannot reason with, cannot profitably talk to. This is the salient point. Fundamentalists are not worth talking to, and thus they are not worth listening to. This is why “you’re a fundamentalist” means “shut up.” It means the fundamentalist is not even a part of civil society. Rather, they are self-imposed separatists.

PZ, Dawkins, Hitchens, the atheists here, even the angry ones with shitty attitudes, are not like that. We desperately want fruitful engagement with the wider society; that was Dawkins’s whole reason for writing The God Delusion. Yes, we want more of you to become more of us, but not necessarily all of you, and the reason is not simply for partisanship, but because religion is dangerous inasmuch as it allows morality to be divorced from mortal consequences, and the current ratio of religious to atheists is not conducive to herd immunity should there be a movement toward theocracy. And if we’re going to reach a safer level of atheism like Western Europe has, it’s going to mean a lot of public dissection of everyone’s beliefs. Funny enough, atheists just talking about why we believe what we believe means talking about why we don’t believe what you believe, and this is inevitably interpreted as preaching, attacking, disrespect and hatred, even when the atheist is trying to be respectful, even when the atheist isn’t one like me who believes that there’s nothing about religion that inherently warrants respect.

Liberal theists talk about what they believe all the time, and why the conservatives’ beliefs are misunderstandings of deity, or wrong, or ridiculous, or stupid. The same kind of criticism from atheists toward liberal theists is not allowed.

the only atheists I take issue with are the ones who insist that anyone who disagrees with them about the existence of deity must disagree with them on everything else (or be waiting to turn on them),

I don’t think you’re waiting to turn on other progressives, like you have some kind of malevolent plan. What I worry about is 1) how supernatural beliefs can change, and 2) how widespread respect for supernatural beliefs affects moral discourse.

If Bob can believe, upon insufficient evidence, that God wants him to feed the poor, then he can believe upon insufficient evidence that God wants him to kill people. This can change because of a new, more convincing theological argument. Or a brain tumor, or a hormonal imbalance. Now, there are similar dangers to the atheist, but there’s an extra step, a firewall of skepticism. The atheist who hears voices in his head is more likely to assume he needs medical help. The atheist who encounters a bad argument is going to need some basis besides “God wills it” to start hurting people; there are other bad bases, but this is one less. One less danger.

This is not a danger limited to monotheists. In one of the recent threads about PeTA, someone excused their meat-eating by saying that they “gave thanks” to the spirits of the slaughtered animals. Meaningless blather! It’s religion once again causing and excusing suffering, and pagans are susceptible to this kind of thinking. The death industry is an atrocity in and of itself, but how much more tragic when a well-meaning person contributes to killing when he might have done otherwise had he not believed in spirits!

Comment #90: Grammar RWA  on  11/06  at  11:09 PM

And I see a shift in this culture toward default respect, learning that we all must respect each others beliefs because they are beliefs. It used to be that people would try to come up with some bullshit reasoning for their ill behavior. At least the excuse “well, that’s tradition, that’s the way we’ve always done things” was susceptible to the retort, “well, maybe you don’t have to stick to tradition; other people are changing, see?” Just the awareness that other ways existed was destructive to hurtful traditions. Now, more and more, I hear people saying “well, that’s just what I believe.” Like “gay people shouldn’t adopt children, and that’s just what I believe.” That isn’t a reason! It isn’t even an attempt at a reason! It’s circular at a single step: I believe because I believe because I believe. “Tradition” at least said “that’s the way we’ve always done it, and it’s been working okay for us so far.” That’s an attempt at a reason: it was “working.” Now people let themselves off the hook for anything and everything just by saying “but that’s what I believe. You have to respect my beliefs.” Fuck that. We here recognize that’s bullshit in regard to denying gay people our rights, right? And yet go back to the PeTA thread and you’ll find progressives using the very same non-argument for meat eating. This is a poisonous meme. Belief is not inherently worthy of respect, and “that’s what I believe” is the ultimate immovable barrier to moral progress.

But if we’re going to get conservatives to understand that this non-argument isn’t socially sufficient, and beliefs are subject to criticism, even harsh criticism, it’s going to mean that your (and my) beliefs are going to be harshly, even rudely criticized. This is the price of liberal democracy. I say it’s a small price for freedom.

Now, you can take issue with all that. I insist that you ought to! But note that I’m asking for dialogue, I’m asking for conversation and engagement, even if it’s not always pleasant or polite. That’s not what fundamentalists do. So like I said above, call us “asshole atheists” if that’s how we make you feel. It’s surely an accurate term at times. But don’t silence us and shut us out with “fundamentalist.” I’m a strong-willed person and I speak about morality a lot. This exact same attitude and behavior is applauded by the exact same people when it’s applied to arguing for reproductive choice, or gay rights, or progressive taxation and universal health care. When I speak about atheism, a few get bothered. When I speak about veganism, it’s inevitable, half a dozen people here will call me a fundamentalist. It’s the exact same attitude, the exact same approach! That’s how I know the progressive’s charge of “fundamentalism” has nothing to do with attitude. It’s all about silencing someone who holds a different point of view.

Did you notice how so many atheists here spoke up when Broce dropped the f-bomb? And how many said the same thing: it’s an attempt to shut us up. We know because we’re routinely silenced in so many ways. You’d recognize it too if you were in our shoes. Please, if what I’m saying doesn’t make sense, at least take our experiences as some evidence.

Comment #91: Grammar RWA  on  11/06  at  11:13 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.