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Next entry: Jon Chait makes me chuckle Previous entry: This is why so many liberal men shy away from writing about reproductive rights

Privacy vs. autonomy

So I worked up a post in my head about the way the Bristol Palin story exposes the tension between the real feminist argument for reproductive rights, and the compromise argument, and I had my misgivings because I feared the story is getting overplayed.  And Lord Saletan’s nonsense grossed me out.  But still, I think it’s interesting, so if you’ll indulge me. 

I find it interesting how the McCain/Palin campaign tried to shut down the P.R. disaster that is Bristol Palin’s pregnancy by calling for privacy, which was, just short of their invocation of “choice”, about hiding behind feminist values to assault feminism itself, since they wish you and your family have neither privacy nor choice when it comes to management of your life.  But what I find especially interesting is that “privacy” was not actually a feminist value until it had to be in order to get reproductive rights established.  Which isn’t to say that I’m against respecting people’s privacy (and really, this is the last mention of the Palin thing in this post*), but that rooting reproductive rights in the value of privacy instead of autonomy and self-determination has actually created some massive problems for us. 

Privacy is a double-edged sword.  Outside of its use by feminists to get what we want (reproductive rights) without scaring people by arguing for women’s equality, privacy is generally a patriarchal value.  It shields rapists and wife-beaters.  The sense that women are the private property of men is still more ingrained in our society than the idea that uteruses are the private property of women.  To illustrate, here’s an interesting story from Jessica:

Another one (apologies, can’t find a link to the original article anywhere) was from a couple of years ago when a woman was grabbed on a crowded subway platform by a strange man who was attempting to drag her away. As she fought him, he pretended that they were having a “lover’s quarrel” - saying things like, “Oh honey, I’m sorry, come on now!” - so that the surrounding crowd wouldn’t help her. The victim ended up grabbing another woman passing by and saying to her, “I don’t know this man.” The woman beat him off of her and held him until police came. (It was a good story!) But I remember asking myself why people wouldn’t stop to intervene even if they did think it was a fight between a couple.

What percentage of people who wouldn’t interfere with a man beating “his” woman would still think a woman doesn’t have a right to control what’s done with her actual uterus? 

Privacy is often a wonderful thing.  Thank god we live in a society where we can shield ourselves away from the prying eyes of others to make love, pick our noses, or eat a can of beans straight from the can.  But it was a compromise position to argue reproductive rights, a way to shoehorn a feminist belief into the pre-existing patriarchy.  Instead of arguing that women should control our own bodies because we’re full citizens entitled to autonomy and because the value of self-determination laid out in the Declaration of Independence requires women to have this control, we instead shoehorned it into the pre-existing understanding that men have a right to conduct their marriage (and the sex within) as they see fit.  Only after men got a right to sexual privacy spelled out in Griswold did the Supreme Court extend it to women in Eisenstadt and Roe.  It’s very fashionable to say Roe was badly decided, but rarely do I see such critics (usually male critics) argue that it should have been rooted in the belief that women have an equal right to our bodily autonomy.  Which is really the only argument that I think would have actually help lift the debate out of the muck it’s in.  Men have a right to father an actual child who is a living, breathing person with a birth certificate and then refuse to give that child a kidney if it needs one to survive.  Surely women have a right not to be forced to donate our bodies to people who aren’t even people yet.  I’m not a lawyer, and don’t know how to work that argument into a constitutional framework.  But it has much to recommend it from a philosophical point of view. 

Not that I’m second-guessing the route feminists in the 60s and 70s had to take to get our rights secured for us.  Politics is a game of pragmatism underneath all the high-flying rhetoric.  But let’s understand that privacy was a second rate argument that had to be used because autonomy was too frightening to the powers that be. 

By the way, there’s another argument to be made for why “choice”—-another compromise word to shield people from the fact that feminists are actually arguing that women have rights—-presents similar problems.  But Rickie Solinger writes about this in her books.  So you should read those.

*I want to recommend Ruth Marcus’s explanation of why this is going to be a story and should be, however.  Sample:  “Like it or not, Bristol Palin’s pregnancy is intertwined with an important public policy debate about which the two parties differ and on which Sarah Palin has been outspoken.”

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:12 PM • (83) Comments

“I find it interesting how the McCain/Palin campaign tried to shut down the P.R. disaster that is Bristol Palin’s pregnancy by calling for privacy, which was, just short of their invocation of “choice”, about hiding behind feminist values to assault feminism itself, since they wish you and your family have neither privacy nor choice when it comes to management of your life.”

I think you just hit what’s been bugging me the most about this whole story—thanks!

I know exactly what you mean about the “overplayed” part too—I had just read this Time magazine article about Bristol Palin’s pregnancy that I reeeeally wanted to blog about because it struck me as so very bizarre, but I was like, um, yay, just what everybody needs, blog number one thousand and twelve on the topic.  But I couldn’t stop myself anyway.

Comment #1: Lisa KS  on  09/02  at  01:23 PM

Amanda fairly quoted in The Metro: http://www.metrobostonnews.com/us/article/2008/09/02/02/5749-72/index.xml

Comment #2: Ms Kate  on  09/02  at  01:34 PM

One of these days, Google ads might just figure out that this site is pro-choice. smile

This issue is so complicated, because we have a lot of different privacies to talk about.

There is the privacy of Sarah Palin as a public figure. Her own reproductive decisions are her own choice, and should be respected as a matter of privacy. If she had a clear-cut case of hipocrysy (e.g. having an abortion rather than having a baby with DS because her situation was “special”) while similarly agitating that other women should not have a choice, then her own reproductive decisions should be fair game. She did *have* a choice to have her youngest, but it’s a zero-sum equation to try to go after her for exercising that choice because the net result in both Palin’s world and our world would be the birth of the same baby.

There is the privacy of Bristol Palin, which is absolute. Not only is she not a public figure, but she is also a minor, and her decisions are absolutely her own business. If she was coerced or bullied and she wasn’t able to really call the decision her own (which we don’t know, she could be really excited to live up to the expectations that her family has drilled into her), it doesn’t change the fact that she is not a public figure and is a minor and we need to respect her privacy.

Then there is the privacy of Sarah Palin vis-a-vis her daughter. If there was coercion and bullying when Palin made the decision that Bristol would be marrying the father, and that there would not be an abortion, you could still make the case that this was a “private” family matter because Bristol is still a minor and while it’s unfortunate that her mom is willing to sacrifice her daughter at the altar of fetus-worship, it’s still a private family matter so long as there’s no clear abuse going on.

Finally, there is the privacy of Bristol Palin over the next two months, when she will be referenced again and again, possibly directly, possibly indirectly, by the McCain campaign and its supporters, as an example of how morally upstanding the Palin family is. In an attempt to whip up the fundie base into a foaming frenzy of fetus-worshipping, Bristol Palin will become a poster child-with-child of how awesome it will work out when we yank women’s reproductive rights away from them. And since this is already happening, we are allowed to pick this issue up and carry it. Bristol Palin isn’t responsible for her mom and her mom’s politics, but if her mom is going to drag her pregnant teenage daughter into the public sphere in order to score points with the godbags, then it is absolutely appropriate to dissect the “private choices.”

Comment #3: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/02  at  01:42 PM

I’ve always thought the most cogent criticism of Roe is the way it’s as much about protecting doctors as it is about protecting their patients, as the entire privacy right is constructed in terms of the relationship between (in 1973, presumably male) doctors and female patients. It’s much more understandable (if even less defensible) when explained in terms of sexism.

Comment #4: pillsy  on  09/02  at  01:43 PM

Yeah, that Metro story made me really happy.  You have to be cagey with journalists, but that was a good story.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/02  at  01:48 PM

If there was coercion and bullying when Palin made the decision that Bristol would be marrying the father, and that there would not be an abortion, you could still make the case that this was a “private” family matter because Bristol is still a minor…

Which, frankly, is the reason we should consider the wisdom of allowing minors (with parental “permission” or not) to enter into the legal contract that is marriage.

Comment #6: Auguste  on  09/02  at  01:49 PM

I will add that one problem with “privacy” is that we extend it only to those activities that are embarrassing or shameful, even if we know logically they shouldn’t be or that our desire to do things outside of the view of others is rooted in things like “intimacy” instead of “shame”.  Sex isn’t shameful, but it’s private, so it becomes shameful by default.

So, bizarrely, in order to get privacy rights for women in order to obtain the real goal—-reproductive rights—-women had to actually give up their own privacy.  They had to talk about their lives behind closed doors, to demonstrate why women needed reproductive rights.  They had to argue for reproductive rights by telling stories of abortion and birth control, and all they got was privacy rights, which perversely caused everyone to button up about it, hiding again why reproductive rights are crucial.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/02  at  01:51 PM

The shame thing is why, sadly, there’s a problem with feminists saying minors have more privacy rights than adults when it comes to pregnancy.  It reinforces the idea that teenage pregnancy is especially shameful, of that pregnancy at all is shameful (because it’s evidence that you fucked).

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/02  at  01:54 PM

First may I offer a HAPPY BIRTHDAY AMANDA!

And I had to laugh at all the right wing with their headlines about how “Bristol Palin chooses to have child.”

And they all emphasize the choice.  That they are so desperate to deny to all the rest of the women in the country and world.

Comment #9: dakine01  on  09/02  at  01:59 PM

In computer science, this is the difference between security by obscurity and algorithmic security.

Comment #10: paul  on  09/02  at  02:04 PM

I learned recently that apparently even self-proclaimed libertarians can be “pro-life” and want to exert control over women’s reproductive rights, because life begins at conception. A sort of Embryo Liberation Movement. But because “libertarians” tend to be computer nerds, I’m going to call this, “All your uteri are belong to us.”

On the linked article: How about requiring every teenage guy to take an anger management class? That might eliminate the “Buzz off, I’m beatin’ my bitch,” theme from the feministing article.

Comment #11: Hector B.  on  09/02  at  02:05 PM

“It’s very fashionable to say Roe was badly decided, but rarely do I see such critics (usually male critics) argue that it should have been rooted in the belief that women have an equal right to our bodily autonomy. “

This is Cass Sunstein’s argument, but, yeah, people like Saletan just repeat what they heard somewhere.

Comment #12: David B.  on  09/02  at  02:07 PM

NY Times buried the Lead this moring: Forget the daughter.  Governor Palin herself, who supports “abstinence only” as government policy, was having premarital sex and got pregnant before marriage back in 1988, according to the NY Times:

“The Palins eloped on Aug. 29, 1988, and their first son, Track, was born eight months later ...”

See:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/us/politics/02palin.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2&hp;&oref;=slogin

“Abstinence only, for thee and not for me.”

The hypocrisy boggles the mind.

Comment #13: steve  on  09/02  at  02:14 PM

I think it’s critical to remind everyone again and again that while Bristol decided to have her child, which is wonderful, in a McCain presidency, women would lose the right to choose and would have to have the child, no matter what.

Comment #14: justaguy2  on  09/02  at  02:23 PM

I hear ya, Amanda.  I have long felt that abortion and contraception rights should be about autonomy.  I’m no lawyer either, but it seems to me a viable 4th Amendment argument could be made - “The right of the people to be secure in their persons ... against unreasonable searches and seizures…”.  And why not the 5th Amendment?  “...nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law…” 

I’d throw in the takings clause of the 5th but it ends in “without just compensation” so that could create an eminent domain situation where women could be compelled to carry pregnancies to term if the government compensated them for it. 

I also find the choice position to be a bit unwieldy at times.  With both that and the privacy argument it’s too easy for forced birthers to come back with things like “Against wife beating?  Don’t beat your wife”.

Comment #15: Donna  on  09/02  at  02:25 PM

The consitutional right of privacy pretty much just is the right to personal autonomy over decisions over a persons own body without coercion or intimidation from the state.

Comment #16: UMmmmm  on  09/02  at  02:27 PM

See, eg, here


The constitutional right to privacy protects the liberty of people to make certain crucial decisions regarding their well-being without government coercion, intimidation, or interference. Such crucial decisions may concern religious faith, moral values, political affiliation, marriage, procreation, or death. The federal Constitution guarantees the right of individuals to make these decisions according to their own conscience and beliefs. The government is not constitutionally permitted to regulate such deeply personal matters.

Comment #17: Ummmm  on  09/02  at  02:30 PM

Fair enough.  But as a P.R. issue, privacy is separate from autonomy in some fundamental ways.  It invokes secrets, not ownership.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/02  at  02:39 PM

I immediately thought of Mary Cheney when I saw this piece as she also argued that it was her right to privacy that meant people couldn’t bug her about being a lesbian. During that PR kerfuffle, I thought “Gee, that’s nice for you, Mary. But what about all yer lesbian sisters who don’t have a rich, powerful father to safeguard that privacy?”
Yeah, privacy’s a wonderful thing, but it’s a very limited item that doesn’t do much for the cause as a whole.

Comment #19: Rich2506  on  09/02  at  02:42 PM

I think it’s critical to remind everyone again and again that while Bristol decided to have her child, which is wonderful, in a McCain presidency, women would lose the right to choose and would have to have the child, no matter what.

And I think it’s strange that they’re emphasizing that she “decided” to have her child when we’re all fairly positive abortion wasn’t one of the choices and I have a really hard time seeing how they would have pulled off an adoption.  They certainly could have played off an adoption to their base—“See?  That was easy!  Why can’t all you women getting abortions do that?”—but on a personal level, Bristol Palin is definitely a private citizen but she’s also the daughter of the possible next vice-president.  Her child might also be a private citizen but it’s also the grandchild of the possible next vice-president.  What are they going to do, send it off with its shiny new family and no protection?  If someone had the means, the skills, and the desire to threaten the poor kid, what then?

I just don’t see what kind of a “decision” Bristol had to make.  Adoption was a no-go, and with her mother possibly one heartbeat away from the presidency, I don’t know about her but I’m not sure I’d rather have my baby somewhere out there in the ether than safely with my family and the protection of the Secret Service.

Comment #20: Jennifer  on  09/02  at  02:58 PM

Privacy is a double-edged sword.  Outside of its use by feminists to get what we want (reproductive rights) without scaring people by arguing for women’s equality, privacy is generally a patriarchal value.

Er, not necessarily so outside the Excited Snakes.  Here and (as I understand it) in Europe, “privacy” is generally a set of issues over the control of bureaucratic information, and very much a wonkish leftish concern. As you point out, using it to cover reproductive rights is just odd.

Comment #21: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/02  at  03:00 PM

Had Bristol decided differently about her pregnancy and chosen abortion, exactly how much privacy would she have had to enter the limited facilities for abortion in Alaska?  What if her mother went with her?  Her boyfriend?  Somehow I think not much privacy at all, given she is the governors daughter.

Comment #22: Ms Kate  on  09/02  at  03:07 PM

Just as I suspected: Planned Parenthood has a facility in Anchorage and another new place in Juneau.  The Alaska Supreme Court nullified parental notification last year, but how much privacy would Bristol have had walking into the new Juneau location (which likely opened too late for her) or to travel to Anchorage??

I’m betting not much.

Comment #23: Ms Kate  on  09/02  at  03:14 PM

I know this echoes some things I’ve read on other threads but I’m just concerned that Palin and McCain will use Bristol’s pregnancy as a sort of “get-out-of-debate-free” card, and that the media will treat it as such, so that any mention of comprehensive sex education or the failure of abstinance-only will suddenly be taken as an attack on their “privacy,” and somehow be ruled out of bounds.

Comment #24: gravitybear  on  09/02  at  03:15 PM

Somehow I think not much privacy at all, given she is the governors daughter.

Ms Kate: there is a long-standing tradition? history? of providing particularly discreet abortion services to the family members of anti-choice politicians, particularly in areas with few abortion resources. Side entrances, appointments in private medical offices, separate waiting rooms for VIPs, yadda yadda.

Comment #25: protected static  on  09/02  at  03:19 PM

Protected static, what if her parents disagreed with her choice?  Would she have that same shelter?

I suspect not, particularly since Alaska law says she could get an abortion without their knowing or say-so.

Comment #26: Ms Kate  on  09/02  at  03:24 PM

In some political science class once, long ago, I remember hearing that some pro-choice legal scholars argue there was a better way that Roe could have been decided, a different argument than privacy and one that had more constitutional grounding, but I can’t remember what it supposedly was. (I’m sure it was related to the autonomy argument you’re making here, but these folks were actually referring to a specific part of the constitution, and I don’t remember which amendment or clause it is.) I guess the problem is that Roe is seen as particularly vulnerable because its poor constitutional grounding makes it easier for judges to go against precedent based simply on a more literal, logical reading of the Constitution, giving them cover for being against women’s rights.

Any lawyers or academics in the crowd have any idea what it might be that I am vaguely remembering?

Comment #27: chingona  on  09/02  at  03:28 PM

Protected static, what if her parents disagreed with her choice?  Would she have that same shelter?

Her mom is the governor, and a fiery opponent to abortion rights.  I’m pretty sure she never really had much say in the matter to begin with.  And given Palin’s alleged treatment of the bureaucracy, I wouldn’t be surprised if her daughter’s marriage isn’t something of the shotgun variety.  Some Alaskan high school guy knocked up the wrooooong snow bunny.  I don’t envy the prospective newest member of the Palin clan in the slightest.

Comment #28: Zifnab25  on  09/02  at  03:37 PM

Sarah Palin knew when she accepted the offer to become John McCain’s running mate that all of her privcay, and all of her family’s privacy, was gone.  I’m guessint that they wouldn’t have made this announcement, yet, had it not been for the idiotic rumor that Trig Palin was Bristol’s son, not the Governor’s, but if she’s five months pregnant now, by election day she’ll be seven (and maybe 7½) months pregnant, and that’ll be getting pretty obvious.  It couldn’t be kept private all the way through the election, so it had to be mentioned sometime.

Comment #29: Dana  on  09/02  at  03:57 PM

I’m all for choice and all, but the choice lobby would get more interest from me if they stopped talking about the issue being a “right one’s body”. Again, I’m no screecher, but it’s offensive on at least a couple of levels to treat the proto-kid as a component of the body. it’s philosophically lazy for one thing - it completely fails to engage the other side with a winnable argument. It’s also profoundly exclusionary of all men, very few of whom will feel that the proto-person isn’t also a part of them. We know that women have the ultimate choice, and ought to - their health, their time, etc., - but the “it’s all about my body” argument isn’t becoming at all.

I bet the boyfriend isn’t very happy about the situation either…

Comment #30: nevermind  on  09/02  at  04:11 PM

Well, nevermind, the problem is that it’s *not* a part of the man’s body, any more than a born child is a part of either parent’s body. The problem, honestly, is that people who have never been pregnant and people who had easy pregnancies are too easily suckered by rhetoric that implies that pregnancy is easy, simple or no big deal. Pregnancy can be a life-threatening medical condition. Very few people come through pregnancy with no permanent physical changes to their bodies. Pregnancy is inconvenient for pretty much everyone but the level of inconvenience can range from “I can’t see my toes” to “I can’t do my job” to “I need to spend a month in the hospital or I might die.”

Now, if you’re undergoing a medical condition that *could* result in death, or in spending a month in the hospital in order to avoid death, then making the argument be about what happens to your body has some teeth to it. But if you think that pregnancy is roses and flowers and you don’t understand or are wilfully blind to how much damage pregnancy can do, then the idea that you should endure a little inconvenience so that someone else can live seems compelling. Never mind that there are *no* other laws that state or even imply that there is a condition where you can be forced to risk life or health for another person’s wellbeing or survival, and in many states you’re in fact allowed to kill people for invading your *property*, let alone your body… and these are often states that have the hardest core of anti-abortion supporters!

Comment #31: Alara Rogers  on  09/02  at  04:20 PM

We know that women have the ultimate choice, and ought to - their health, their time, etc., - but the “it’s all about my body” argument isn’t becoming at all.

Why can’t you be more ladylike, feminists? All this “I’m a real person” stuff makes me squicky inside!

Thanks for your concern

Comment #32: Well, what?  on  09/02  at  04:30 PM

It’s also profoundly exclusionary of all men

And indeed, it is, as always… All about Teh Menz.

Comment #33: Well, what?  on  09/02  at  04:34 PM

Oh! Oh! I feel so excluded!

Or, er, I guess I would, if I had a uterus. Or something. But I know those radical abortionist feminazis must be dissing me somehow, just because I’m a man! I’m so hurt. Maybe nevermind and I should go bang drums in the woods, or something. To recover that manly feeling, you know.

Comment #34: Steve LaBonne  on  09/02  at  04:40 PM

We know that women have the ultimate choice, and ought to - their health, their time, etc., - but the “it’s all about my body” argument isn’t becoming at all.

O Woman, ghastly is your error!!  When will you learn that you’re so unattractive when you’re trying to act real.

Comment #35: bekabot  on  09/02  at  04:44 PM

And quite frankly, it is about my body. 

The embryo/fetus lives inside my body and so long as that’s true, it damn well is about my body and what I want done with it.  And men can argue that it’s also part of their body once they gestate it.  That may be unseemly and offensive to some people, but that doesn’t make it any less true.

Now, I did it willingly twice and I love my kids (and it seriously sucks that I have to make that disclaimer—it should be a given that I love my kids), but that still doesn’t change the fact that while I was pregnant, it very much was about my body and whether I was willing to let them live inside it and gestate for 9 months.

Comment #36: ks  on  09/02  at  04:44 PM

It’s also profoundly exclusionary of all men, very few of whom will feel that the proto-person isn’t also a part of them.

It isn’t a part of them. Women are the only ones who can volunteer their bodies for pregnancy, which sucks for everyone, but that’s biology. Either start sucking up real good to the potential mother of your proto-person or get to work on that artificial womb.

Also, asking that people put your feelings above their lives and health isn’t a good way to get them to take you seriously.

Comment #37: junk science  on  09/02  at  04:45 PM

I’m all for choice and all, but the choice lobby would get more interest from me if they stopped talking about the issue being a “right one’s body”.

It’s a lot more grounded in reality than the anti-choicer’s argument, which eventually and inevitably boils down to a variation on “my flavour of Invisible Bearded Sky Man™ says that life begins when the sperm fertilises the egg—MURDERER!!”

Most of these Xtian fantasists aren’t even reasonable or informed enough to make basic distinctions between zygote, blastocyst, embryo and foetus, let alone discuss key issues to the debate like foetal self-sufficiency, cognizance, birth defects and rape. No, with them it’s one step removed (at best) from “Every Sperm is Sacred.”

This is America, where it’s incumbent on the party trying to limit choice to make a compelling case for doing so. So I’m afraid that they’re just going to have to deal with proving their case on the “unbecoming” basis of biology and medicine and the individual rights of adults (especially women, who do the heavy lifting of pregnancy) before they start moaning about making the baby Jeebus cry.

Comment #38: Gracchus  on  09/02  at  04:51 PM

Nevermind, it’s not even remotely exclusionary of men.  I fully support the right of any man who is pregnant to abort.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/02  at  04:56 PM

Fair enough.  But as a P.R. issue, privacy is separate from autonomy in some fundamental ways.  It invokes secrets, not ownership.

Autonomy and privacy are both important principles and I couldn’t begin to prioritize them myself.

I think a further problem with protecting reproductive choice under the umbrella of privacy is that, if the constitutional right to privacy is as tenuous as it’s often said to be, attacks on Roe are likely to restrict our freedom in lots of other, unexpected, ways.

Perhaps as a man I simply can’t see this patriarchal angle. Due process causes many criminals to go unpunished, that doesn’t make it unimportant. Similarly privacy shelters a lot of evil but I’m really disgusted by the rise of the surveillance state that we’ve seen and I hope that that’s a universal concern.

Which is to say that establishing choice as an issue of autonomy wouldn’t have to compromise privacy, it could protect both.

Comment #40: vaux-rien  on  09/02  at  05:14 PM

Amanda,

Wow—that was really eye-opening.  I’ve been unhappy before that the right to abortion was grounded in privacy, not autonomy, because it isn’t a secret abortion women are entitled (otherwise, hello, we could get those assholes who post pictures of women who enter abortion clinics) but I had never connected the dots about why contraception was rooted in privacy, and how privacy is used as a shield of the privileged.  Just wow.  A real lightbulb moment for me. 

And since I am a lawyer, I am inclined to agree with Donna that this would fit much better in the framework of liberty.  What does liberty mean if it doesn’t have anything to do with the freedom to control your body?  And sorry, to whoever said it upthread, it is about our bodies.  Even in a “normal” pregnancy, the extreme fatigue and physical changes are pretty dramatic.

-Ismone

Comment #41: Ismone  on  09/02  at  05:33 PM

Nevermind, it’s not even remotely exclusionary of men.  I fully support the right of any man who is pregnant to abort.

AAAAaaand it’s Amanda, for the win!  The crowd goes wild!

 

Happy Birthday, too, and all that.

Comment #42: PostingWhileIntoxicated  on  09/02  at  05:40 PM

Nevermind, it’s not even remotely exclusionary of men.  I fully support the right of any man who is pregnant to abort.

That is an interesting philosophy.  I know women don’t exactly like being referred to as sperm dumpsters, but their male counterparts aren’t just spigots either.  Surely, the guy is allowed some degree of input in the matter.

If the woman carries the child to term, she’s got the guy on the hook for the next 18 years.  If the woman aborts, she can just flip the man the bird and that’s the end of it.  I’m not sure what input the man should be allowed to provide, but I don’t know if his say in the matter should dry up as soon as his juice does.

Comment #43: Zifnab25  on  09/02  at  05:43 PM

I am certainly not my daughter’s “sperm spigot”; for most of her life I have been a custodial single father and for all of her life, the only real parent she had.

But neither do I hallucinate that I carried her in my body. Is that really so hard to understand?

Comment #44: Steve LaBonne  on  09/02  at  05:49 PM

“I’m not sure what input the man should be allowed to provide, but I don’t know if his say in the matter should dry up as soon as his juice does.”

Well, maybe you should clear up exactly what input you think men should have when it comes to things that women do with their bodies before running your mouth and sounding like an idiot.

Comment #45: Rachel II  on  09/02  at  05:50 PM

Barbara of the Mahablog has a very interesting essay about Buddhist approaches to morality, and through morality to abortion, that really reminds us of how narrow our conceptions are. I think this is a great, great, essay Amanda and the autonomy v. privacy distinction is just right on the money. However there remain some important things to say and think in general about western vs. non western notions of the relationship between individual action and sin, or between good and evil, that Barbara explores here:http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/abortion.htm

Her basic point is that in our society the clash is scene as taking place within the context of absolute right and wrong. The fetus/embryo either “is” life or “isn’t” either belongs to the woman or belongs to itself, has a “right” to life or she has a “right” to self determination. And we are somewhat hampered by trying, at the same time, to see the vindication of right X as a good thing so that each side tries to minimize or ignore the very real harm that comes to someone, fetus or woman, from the decision to abort.  But what if there isn’t a perfectly right course of action? what if the individuals with their individual and conflicting rights don’t really exist in an existential sense at all?  Buddhist interbeing posits that we exist through and within each other. Buddhist notions of non being posit that, ultimately, we don’t exist at all as separate or seperable selves. Whether that makes us more inclined to see an abortion as a kind of joint decision between two beings intimately connected with one another, or as a non decision which is not all that signficant because the “life” of the fetus is no more definitively individual than the life of the mother both views would take us to a place in which abortion just isn’t that big a deal. Barbara says that abortion is seen as “taking a life” in Buddhist thought, but that it is seen against the backdrop of a more mournful sense that sometimes bad things happen and that lessening suffering for the individual woman would be the more responsible thing to do. In a religion of reincarnation that, of course, makes a lot of sense since the fetus “dies” but presumably lives on in anothe body at another time.  This is also an argument made in “Liquid Life” a wonderful book about abortion politics in Japan. For a long time, before they became a political football, abortions were seen as returning the fetuses soul to a kind of ether from which it would be born again. From that perspective although one is, of course, sorry that one can not welcome the new life into one’s own family, one remains certain that it will appear somewhere else, possibly better, at another time.

aimai

Comment #46: aimai  on  09/02  at  05:53 PM

omg, if I get pregnant, the dude who provided the sperm is on the hook for 18 years of child support!  Just like I am!

Comment #47: syfr  on  09/02  at  05:53 PM

Zifnab, don’t fight for this one. It’s a red herring issue used by MRA asswipes to try and undermine abortion rights.

MOST women consult with their partner before having an abortion. The ones who do not usually have a damn good reason not to.

In a situation where, say, you have no relationship with the woman, no intention to DEVELOP a relationship with the woman, or hell, don’t even know the NAME of the woman you had sex with…I’m not sure why you think your Sperm Magic should give you the right to dictate what she does with an unintended pregnancy.

In a situation where, say, the woman isn’t telling you because you’ll beat her (into a miscarriage?), fuck you.

Etc. and so on.

Comment #48: Well, what?  on  09/02  at  05:59 PM

If the woman carries the child to term, she’s got the guy on the hook for the next 18 years. 

If you’re afraid about contracting an 18 year financial obligation, I suggest you refrain from having intercourse until you buy insurance to cover your risks.  Somebody will take the other side of the bet. If not, think to yourself every time you have an opportunity: “Do I want to pay for this orgasm for the next 18 years?” You might just decide to shoot some pool, instead.

If the woman aborts, she can just flip the man the bird and that’s the end of it.

Not that the pregnant woman owes “the man” anything, but I’m curious: Is this “the man” her loving lifepartner, or somebody she hooked up with in a bar?

I’m not sure what input the man should be allowed to provide, but I don’t know if his say in the matter should dry up as soon as his juice does.

The participation of each is in no way comparable. Like the old story about breakfast: The chicken is involved, but the pig is committed

Comment #49: Hector B.  on  09/02  at  05:59 PM

I can’t remember what legal theory Justice Blackmun could have used other than “penumbral rights.”  I briefed that in law school and remember only that it’s terribly twisted legally because the Court wanted the decision to be on the side of choice…  The 14th amendment, maybe?

Comment #50: BetsyTX  on  09/02  at  06:00 PM

See, that’s the funny thing about relationships and bodily autonomy.  My husband may well have opinions about whether I should breastfeed any eventual children, or whether, if I were to get pregnant at a very late age we should keep the pregnancy or not, or whether certain foods are good or bad for me….but see, he chose to have a relationship with me.  And between the two of us, we have to decide what that relationship means in terms of all the life choices we make that effect the other.  There may be decisions he or I make regarding our own personal bodies that the other person has a hard time with.  And since we have a good relationship, we will discuss those things.  But at the end of the day, I will decide whether I will breastfeed or not, or whether I’ll get hormone replacement therapy (which could shorten my life!), or whether I’ll see a counselor or not, and the same goes for him.  If those choices, or how they are reached, damage the relationship and we drift apart (knowing us, I really do not think they will) that would really be a damn shame.  But not such a damn shame that I want the law involved, telling me how little or how much I have to give my husband a voice in decisions that effect us both.  Every relationship is different, and even when the relationship has the legal sanction of the state (i.e., marriage) I really do not want the state telling me how to be married.

Comment #51: Ismone  on  09/02  at  06:10 PM

If the woman carries the child to term, she’s got the guy on the hook for the next 18 years.  If the woman aborts, she can just flip the man the bird and that’s the end of it.


Zifnab25, while I agree that it does suck, I don’t think there’s a practical solution.  The only one I’ve ever been able to think of would be to give the guy opt-out rights in the first trimester, and only in places where abortion is easily available.  That’s obviously so impractical and full of potential for wingnut mischief that it’s not worthy of developing further.  I think your best bet to make sure you don’t end up on the hook is a vasectomy.

Comment #52: PostingWhileIntoxicated  on  09/02  at  06:12 PM

Thanks, Amanda, for a thoughtful article that clearly goes beyond any partisan urge to boost or bash the Palin nomination. The kidney analogy: perfect. Expect me to plagiarize that analogy mercilessly as I continue trying to convince my neighbors of the core issue of equal autonomy that lies at the heart of the reproductive rights debate. grin

Comment #53: caheidelberger  on  09/02  at  06:13 PM

Betsy TX,

I think donna’s suggestion upthread that it be rooted in fifth amendment liberty (extended to the people against the states, as you note, by the 14th amendment), is the best one we’ve got.  Unless we wanted to get into hinky ninth or tenth amendment law.  Which I do not think would be a bad thing, but in current constitutional law, those two amendments are mostly no-gos for individual rights.

Iz

Comment #54: Ismone  on  09/02  at  06:14 PM

If the woman carries the child to term, she’s got the guy on the hook for the next 18 years. 

Unless she leaves him and the kids to run off to another state by herself. In which case *he* has *her* on the hook until the kids turn 18.

My husband is a custodial father. He collects child support when his ex bothers to send it. Why is it such a difficult concept for people to grasp that CHILD SUPPORT IS OWED TO CHILDREN, not a payment men make to women for having borne their sacred sperm? If more men actually stepped up to the plate and did the work of child rearing, more women would end up on the hook for child support when divorce occurs.

Besides, I can tell you firsthand—it doesn’t *begin* to cover what the custodial parents have to pay.

So yeah, the woman can get out of it by abortion, but if she does not abort, she’s as much on the hook for the money as he is. There’s no thinking better of it after the child is 2 and starting to cost real money!

Comment #55: Alara Rogers  on  09/02  at  06:18 PM

I hope the media have some gonads and go after the abstinence-only education issue. They don’t have to mention Palin’s daughter. They CERTAINLY don’t have to be intimidated - this is Not About Bristol, it’s real public policy with impact on large numbers of people.

gravitybear wrote:I’m just concerned that Palin and McCain will use Bristol’s pregnancy as a sort of “get-out-of-debate-free” card, and that the media will treat it as such, so that any mention of comprehensive sex education or the failure of abstinance-only will suddenly be taken as an attack on their “privacy,” and somehow be ruled out of bounds.

Comment #56: NancyP  on  09/02  at  06:20 PM

On Privacy , Autonomy
It has been a while so if anyone wants to chime in to correct my lame memory

14th Amendment, Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

After side stepping a bunch of significant procedural issues about whether the case should be heard at all because the pregnancy in question had already come to full term, the court found :

1. That there was no reasonable historical (common law) basis for the Texas anti-abortion law
2. That Texas interest in the case was limited to: A:) protection of the women from harm B:) Protection of babies C:) Protection of the society from promiscuity feared to be encouraged by abortion
3. They defined baby as a potentially viable premie. So around 24 weeks or so. They noted in particular that they had not decided upon the legal rights that a fetus has prior to viability, if any.
4. They decided that there was no factual basis to C above effectively dismissing it.
5. They concluded that women were protected by the 14th Amendment, (in particular Section 1) often used to restrict or reverse laws applied to classes of people but not to all of society as a whole.
6. They decided that abortion was a FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT, so that the court review of the law in question would have to satisfy three major tests to be determined constitutional in light of the 14th amendment (strict scrutiny). This little decision was monumental. The tests that need to be satisfied are outlined on the intertubes for your wow-friends amusement:
Compelling Gov. Interest- The court found the first two items in #2 above were compelling in cases of a viable fetus only
Narrowly Tailored- The court found the law was not narrowly tailored enough since the state had an no clear interest in a non-viable fetus.
Least Restrictive- I’ve forgoton what they found, but it doesn’t matter, because it needed to pass all three, and failed.
6. They subsequently balanced the privacy and equal protection concerns of women with the states’ interest by inventing the trimester senario we are now all familiar with.

Comment #57: staydaddy  on  09/02  at  06:46 PM

Umm, the comment describing the Roe V Wade decision above was supposed to have a more descriptive title that was ommitted (why do I never preview?).

It always seemed to me that the court did a great thing by recognizing abortion as a fundamental right, and went out of it’s way to do so. That said, by subjecting abortion to a different level of scrutiny (a type of court review), I guess it would be open to a reversal. As would it be if natal rights are ever defined. So there you go, nothing is ever easy. Not sure how grounding it differently would have been better in practice, as it seems like considering how long it has been under assault, it has held up to a sustained frontal attack for a long time.

Comment #58: staydaddy  on  09/02  at  07:04 PM

Privacy is not a compromise argument, at least not the sort I would advocate: When you are harming others, you do not get any privacy for that conduct. So privacy does not shield rapists or wife-beaters. Nor does it shield atrocious trolls of parents who sexually torment their children with religion, abstinence classes, and other ¨sex is naughty¨cant, and then force them into a pregnancy at the age of 17. But enough of that.

I think an argument justifying Roe based on women´s equal prerogative to exercise the right to privacy is the best one. But you have to have a clearly defined privacy right in the first place, and not, as Amanda hints re earlier privacy arguments to justify women´s rights, just a vaguely defined valence issue to bring pervs and prudes into the Big Tent.

Comment #59: Luke  on  09/02  at  07:06 PM

I’m so glad you wrote this. I was thinking the exact same thing in the wake of so many people standing on their principles of privacy when arguing why the Palin pregnancy issue should be completely avoided. It seemed clear to me that these principled stands on privacy are rooted in a pragmatic defense of prior political gains. It occurred to me, though, that I don’t value the abstract and vague concept of “privacy” anywhere near as much as I value “female autonomy.

Comment #60: aaron  on  09/02  at  07:32 PM

An aspect of this story that (mostly) observes Bristol’s privacy is: what does it say about Palin’s judgment that she continues to support abstinence ed, despite being up to her ass in proof that it doesn’t have the effect she was probably expecting? I’m guessing that her daughter had, from a pro-abstinence POV, the best-case sort of upbringing: church on Sunday, strong family support for abstinence, ab-ed at school, etc. And—despite all that pressure—she still acted like what her mom probably thinks of as a tramp (or would, if it was anyone else’s daughter), and what you and I think of as a normal person. 

If Palin is still anti-real-sex-ed after this, does it mean she’s incapable of absorbing and acting on new information about anything? Does she understand the difference between a big fucking social experiment (such as these two Republican faves: “Abstinence ed will end teenage pregnancy”; “Market forces will take care of every damn thing”) and ideological spin?

Comment #61: Molly, NYC  on  09/02  at  07:39 PM

Also, ok, I feel bad for this teenage kid, because publicity of this results in a certainly large percentage of cretins in our country airing how they think she´s a tramp and wicked and did not pay attention in Sunday School or whatever… blah blah blah. But maybe it´s just an early lesson for her that people suck. The problem is that, without the publicity, the rest of us do not get a chance to point out the real lessons here - the failure of abstinence education, GOP hypocrisy, the abuse and authoritarianism of forced pregnancy and policing teenagers who have sex, the burdens the GOP seeks to impose on women - will all be oscurbed. And the GOP is so totally morally bankrupt and wrong when it comes to these issues, which is why they are begging for privacy now, so they don´t have to discuss the issues they should.

Comment #62: Luke  on  09/02  at  07:50 PM

BTW—the assumption here (and it seems likely) is that Bristol was pressured into having the baby. But it’s not that hard to imagine a conversation taking place right after school let out last June:

“Mom, uh, Mom, I’m pregnant. I took one of those tests.”

[Long silence from the female Sammy Glick of Alaska] “We’ll go to Seattle, we can get the procedure there, and no one knows us.”

[Even longer silence from young girl who’s spent all of her 17 years being told that abortion is pretty much the only thing worse than having sex in the first place.] “Noooooooo!”

Comment #63: Molly, NYC  on  09/02  at  07:53 PM

I’m so glad you wrote this. I was thinking the exact same thing in the wake of so many people standing on their principles of privacy when arguing why the Palin pregnancy issue should be completely avoided. It seemed clear to me that these principled stands on privacy are rooted in a pragmatic defense of prior political gains. It occurred to me, though, that I don’t value the abstract and vague concept of “privacy” anywhere near as much as I value “female autonomy.

Yuck. The matter of Bristol Palin’s privacy is a matter of decency and not of law, and yes, much of the crowing about it is politically motivated. But my interest in privacy as a fundamental human right is rooted in wanting to keep Dick Cheney out of my bedroom. It doesn’t seem abstract or vague to me at all.

You’re entitled to your own values of course but they scare the shit out of me.

Comment #64: vaux-rien  on  09/02  at  07:58 PM

Did the man do his due diligence with regard to contraception?  Does he have no relation with the woman?  Then maybe he can make a case that he shouldn’t have to pay child support.  That’s for a court to decide.

Not me.

Just like it’s up to a woman if she wants to be pregnant or not.  Or donate a kidney or not.

It’s not up to me.

Comment #65: Crissa  on  09/02  at  08:03 PM

“Nevermind, it’s not even remotely exclusionary of men.  I fully support the right of any man who is pregnant to abort.”

Oh hell, me too!  And did I jump back on too late to bait the trolls…here, this oughta bring any out if they’re still lurking—-“ALSO I THINK ALL THE BITCHEZ SHOULD HAVE TO TAKE MANDATORY PATERNITY TESTS DON’T U CUZ YOU KNOW ALL THOSE MEN ON THE HOOK FOR 18 YEARS PAYING FOR SOME OTHER MAN’S CHILD”

Comment #66: Lisa KS  on  09/02  at  08:10 PM

I just don’t see what kind of a “decision” Bristol had to make.  Adoption was a no-go, and with her mother possibly one heartbeat away from the presidency, I don’t know about her but I’m not sure I’d rather have my baby somewhere out there in the ether than safely with my family and the protection of the Secret Service.


The adoption no-go may also have been be another case of good for thee but not for me.  The Evan B Donaldson Institute recently published a White Paper about protecting the rights and well being of people who lose children to adoption, stating basically two things:  1) that the rights of people who lose children to adoptio are NOT being protected, and 2) that since there is so little research that has been done, the impact of child loss to adoption on peoples’ lives is unknown.  (It should be noted that only 53 studies that have been done on women who have lost children to adoption, and those studies indicate that outcomes for a litttle more than half these women later in life are grim.)

I think what I am trying to say here is that although The Family Research Council and the National Council for Adoption have been collaborating in funding research into adoption marketing almost since the inception of the FRC, and although “Adoption, not abortion”  has become a prolife meme (and should be recognized as such) it may be that in the Palins’ case, they decided that adoption was for others, not for them.  It may have had little to do with security concerns and much to do with the fact that losing a child that way causes a lifetime of pain…pain they wish to avoid.

And in that, they are not alone.  The domestic relinquishment rate is 0.8%.  What this means is that for most women and most families, adoption is a no-go.

Comment #67: Suzie Kidnap  on  09/02  at  08:16 PM

Wow, Suzie. With all of those bad effects on women documented by studies, it sounds like adoption should be outlawed. (And with all the bad effects on women from carrying to term and raising an unwanted child, also documented by studies, that should probably be outlawed too. Oh, wait.)

Comment #68: paul  on  09/02  at  09:04 PM

Gee, Paul,

You’d think that people would grasp that prevention is the key to avoiding a lifetime of pain.

As much as the prolife movement has been pushing adoption, the relinquishment rate has not risen in twenty years.  People do not choose adoption because they understand that losing a child to adoption is gonna hurt more than raising that child alone.

It’s not rocket science.

Amanda mentioned Rickie Sollinger, and I can not second that reommendation strongly enough.  “Wake Up Little Suzie” and “Beggars and Choosers” are real eye openers for anyone with an interest in reproductive justice..

Comment #69: Suzie Kidnap  on  09/02  at  09:13 PM

Back to Amanda’s original argument against invoking privacy to protect abortion rights:

There is one line of argument that goes back to John Locke’s assumption of the right to one’s own body, which is the basis of the argument defending private property or ownership (mixing of bodily labor with a common resource gives one the right to exclusive use of that resource).  This is not an argument saying that a fetus or a child is property, but one which points out that if we want to compel gestation, we will need to look at all other prohibitions against forced labor (pun intended). 

In other words, tell a woman she must gestate, and you will also have to tell the baseball player who terminates a contract that he HAS to finish the season instead of paying back the advance; the carpenter who doesn’t install the door will be forced to hammer away under armed guard, etc.

So the privacy argument is a quite plausible, sound and effective one.

Comment #70: phylosopher  on  09/02  at  09:34 PM

In the poorer areas of the US, being a babymama is the lesser of many evils.  So, as a rational person, you find the babydaddy with the best combination of genes and prospects.  Duh.

This is news.  The Downs kid could easily be the first born of Bristol.  Seeing the pic and the quotes from ‘daddy’ make me sad for the girl.  When she turns 20 and he’s still Camaro Kid…

Palin’s actions during her pregnancy are very….umm…odd for a high-risk.  Add to that the eight month stay at Saratoga for the daughter.  Throw in the usual mono time.  Toss in the stats on teens and activity.  We end up with…

Comment #71: Mold  on  09/02  at  09:34 PM

Yuck. The matter of Bristol Palin’s privacy is a matter of decency and not of law, and yes, much of the crowing about it is politically motivated. But my interest in privacy as a fundamental human right is rooted in wanting to keep Dick Cheney out of my bedroom. It doesn’t seem abstract or vague to me at all.

You’re entitled to your own values of course but they scare the shit out of me.

If you can articulate “privacy” as a fundamental human right in a way that is not abstract or vague, I would like to hear it. Emphasizing “privacy” as a way to keep Cheney out of the bedroom strikes me as the epitome of a pragmatic compromise between a progressive feminist political movement and the Constitution, which in terms of respecting women’s autonomy is an imperfect document.

Comment #72: aaron  on  09/02  at  09:34 PM

Phylospher,
Nobody dies in your baseball player analogy.

Comment #73: tomonthebay  on  09/02  at  10:56 PM

Nobody like my former neighbor Shannon Lowney?  Is that what you mean tomonthebay?  Or do you mean all the women who would die from complications of pregnancy, like those in Nicaragua and El Salvador?

Comment #74: Ms Kate  on  09/02  at  11:07 PM

They must not play much ball there on the bay, tom.  It is certainly a possibility that someone can die from playing ball.  If it makes you feel better, use a boxer for the analogy, then.

But back to our real discussion: It’s fairly accepted in modern, civilized society that we shouldn’t force people to do that which they do not wish to do (as in perform labor.)  To do so is a form of indentured servitude at best, slavery at worst.  Nobody dies in a successful abortion either and it’s dishonest of you to try to make it seem otherwise.

Comment #75: phylosopher  on  09/02  at  11:33 PM

If the woman aborts, she can just flip the man the bird and that’s the end of it.

So if she were going to “flip [him] the bird” but doesn’t because she didn’t have an abortion, somehow someone in this situation is better off? Abortion would be a bad thing in this situation because the man would get dumped by a woman who would otherwise have stayed with him purely for the sake of a pregnancy? I guess that makes sense to a desperately lonely person.

Comment #76: junk science  on  09/03  at  12:50 AM

“Whether that makes us more inclined to see an abortion as
1) a kind of joint decision between two beings intimately connected with one another, or
2) as a non decision which is not all that signficant because the “life” of the fetus is no more definitively individual than the life of the mother
both views would take us to a place in which abortion just isn’t that big a deal.”
You can be sure that if Buddhism was the main religion in America, a third position would be found, and it would be declared the only true and original one by wingnut fundie Buddhists. This is an entirely political matter. The only relevance faith has is that poor reasoning has become confused with faith.

Comment #77: me  on  09/03  at  09:16 AM

It really does come down to:

People who are against reproductive freedom shouldn’t have sex with people who are for reproductive freedom, and vice versa.

Comment #78: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/03  at  09:22 AM

“My husband is a custodial father. He collects child support when his ex bothers to send it.”

I find this to be a fascinating issue. By numbers far more men are obligated to pay child support than women but out of those who are obligated to pay it, women fail to pay at a higher rate then men. The reason for that is the same reason a lot of men dont pay, lack of income. Deadbeat dads and moms, the vast majority of them are part-time workers or earn a really, really low wage. I don’t see a way to fix that. I also would ask a favor, how can i defeat the following argument: “Women want to have all the rights during a pregnancy but only half the responsibility, if men truly have no rights whatsoever once the egg is fertilized why should they have obligations if we get to a perfect world where women have absolutely any choice they wish open to them?” I hammer on the personal autonomy thing but it doesnt work, if we’re talking about the ideal right and wrong, what can i say?

Comment #79: dananddanica  on  09/03  at  11:54 AM

I also would ask a favor, how can i defeat the following argument: “Women want to have all the rights during a pregnancy but only half the responsibility, if men truly have no rights whatsoever once the egg is fertilized why should they have obligations if we get to a perfect world where women have absolutely any choice they wish open to them?”

The key words in that argument are “during the pregnancy”—as in, when the embryo or foetus is inside the mother’s body, and being nourished and sustained by it. At that point, the mother is (literally) carrying 100% of the physical responsibility for the child. It isn’t a case of personal autonomy so much as personal biology, and if they want to argue with biology they’ll eventually pushed into the corner with Jeebus and his invisible dad (who, as I recall, didn’t do much for Mary until she was reduced to giving birth in a manger).

The father-to-be can and often does help out during the pregnancy, most of the time by mutual agreement with the mother-to-be. But AFAIK, outside of marriage (which implies certain contractual obligations) there’s nothing legally binding the him to support her during the pregnancy. The fundies will respond that pregnancy should only take place within the bounds of wedlock, but (I’m looking at you, Gov. “Family Values” Palin) good luck with that.

Comment #80: Gracchus  on  09/03  at  12:33 PM

Vaux, did you even read the post?  Because I’m arguing for autonomy, a much stronger protection principle.  Even if you let Dick Cheney in your bedroom under the autonomy philosophy, he can’t control your body.  Under privacy, once he’s in the door, you’re all his to control.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/03  at  12:33 PM

“....Nobody dies in a successful abortion either and it’s dishonest of you to try to make it seem otherwise. “

Something wrong with your reading there, phylosopher.  The claim was that people can and do die when forced to continue PREGNANCY, not when they have a successful abortion.

Comment #82: Helen H  on  09/03  at  01:30 PM

I have a vague premonition that Briston Palin, the poor thing, will have a fortuitous miscarriage, followed by a therapeutic D&C;.  Miscarriages happen, right?  After that, Bristol’s engagement will drag on and on indefinitely, and will be dissolved when (1) one of the parties marries someone else; or (2) the family is no longer in the spotlight.  I mean, that’s how things were done in the good old days.

Comment #83: Amused  on  09/08  at  01:49 AM
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