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Pro-pro-voice

I’m pretty excited to announce that my first article ever to be translated into Spanish is out.  It’s published in the latest issue of “Our Truths - Nuestras Verdades”, a magazine published by ExhaleYou can get a PDF of it here.*  Exhale is a pretty nifty organization.  They’re there simply to support women who’ve had abortions, regardless of how those women feel about it.  This is a big deal, because the nation is cluttered with anti-choice organizations that claim to offer support, but they’re just trying to get you to a place where you claim that all your problems in life are the result of abortion, as if it let a demon in or something.  (Many literally believe this.)  But many women are also uneasy asking for support from the pro-choice community, feeling guilty if they have mixed feelings about it.  Aspen Baker, the director, has a video explaining how her own abortion inspired her to seek this third path.


Our Reality: Aspen’s Experience with Abortion from RH Reality Check on Vimeo.

She’s got an article up at RH Reality Check to accompany this video, explaining how forefronting women’s experiences—-good, bad, indifferent, grieving—-is the way to make the conversation a productive one.

I couldn’t believe the debate had sounded the same for so long, despite how much the world had changed and how many of us women, and our loved ones, have had their own experiences with abortion. Our rights, values, lives and needs are really what this debate is all about. How could the debate not respond to us and better reflect our experiences? 

It must. Not only to be more supportive of women who have had abortions but because a more honest, reflective, responsive dialogue has the potential to overcome the years of damage the divisive debate has had on the health and well-being of our nation.


Needless to say, I agree with her.  Well, maybe not needless.  There are some people out there who are happy to misrepresent my views in order to demagogue about reproductive rights.  I recently saw a very disappointing example—-a supposed rational skeptic type in the comments at Science-Based Medicine, when responding to the idea that pro-choicers think of abortion as a lesser of two evils, said:

Actually, there are some who view abortion as a moral good. Personally, I consider this argument to be unconvincing. At the very best, abortion is a morally neutral medical procedure. At the very best. Personally, I tend to consider it to be the lesser of two evils in many cases, but still not an absolute good by any stretch of the imagination.

Wildly dishonest, an attempt to exploit people’s typical unwillingness to actually read the post instead of just the title.  A skeptic and a rationalist should realize that something can be both the lesser of two evils and a moral good.  Is heart surgery a moral good?  Yes, of course.  Saving lives is a moral good.  I it the lesser of two evils? Absolutely.  It would be nice if we didn’t have heart disease in the first place.  But because we have heart disease—-and unplanned pregnancy—-it’s a moral good that we have ways to fix these problems. 

Anyway, I bring this up because I want to agree with Aspen that forefronting women’s experiences will clarify policy discussions, will appeal to the mushy middle, and will help pro-choicers really sharpen their beliefs and arguments.  What it won’t do is move the crazed anti-choicers into a space where they can have a productive conversation with anyone.  The anti-choice movement has been based on lying, cheap shots, grand-standing but empty rhetoric, and exploiting people’s vulnerabilities and problems (that often have nothing to do with abortion, though very often have to do with sexual and romantic failures and disappointments) for so long, there’s no recovery there.  In fact, I’d argue that they’re based in a fundamental deceit about their motivations with regards to gender roles and returning women to the kitchen, and when the foundation is deceit, everything you build on it is corrupt.  The comments under Aspen’s post bear this out.  The hardliners lie about having sympathy for her and then railroad right into trying to convince Aspen that she’s a depressed, broken person because of her abortion, completely ignoring what she did say about it.  (That she was sad, that she blamed herself for getting pregnant, that her relationship woes complicated the problem, that it made her feel like she didn’t know where she was going, and so it was the impetus that drove her to therapy to figure it out.)  I’m sure they didn’t even watch the video.

But I don’t think Aspen’s pro-voice idea is wrong or doomed to failure.  All this proves is that the loud minority of Americans that constitute the majority of “pro-life” energy are unsalvageable, but they’re not that many people at the end of the day.  Far larger are the numbers of people who feel guilted into being anti-choice, but if who were presented with the reality of people’s lives might soften up quite a bit.  And then there’s the mushy middle, who are kind of sort of pro-choice, but want restrictions, and again, would perhaps see why most of these restrictions are a bad idea when given a more nuanced view of women’s actual lives.  (For instance, parental notification is appealing to a lot of people, until they’re told that the only people really affected by it tend to be neglected or abused teenage girls.)  As for pro-choicers, I think this strategy gives us a way to stop being afraid of saying things that give the wingnuts a chance to say “gotcha”.  We know the anti-choice movement will pounce on any use of the word “baby” or any expression of any feeling short of relief or glee at abortion as “evidence” that women don’t really know what they need, and should be forced to bear children, which is the right thing for every woman to be doing at any point in time.  Well, we have to stop being afraid of them, because, as I said before, they aren’t changing. 

Ideally, I’d like to see a situation where abortion is regarded in the same way people regard divorce—-unpleasant for most, but with varying degrees of relief and anxiety, depending on the particulars of your situation.  And something that you should have a right to, because while divorce is unpleasant, it’s the solution to an even worse problem.  Most people have the maturity to realize that because your divorce depressed you and sent you to therapy to reevaluate your life doesn’t mean it was the wrong decision.  Most people get that if you regret your divorce, that doesn’t mean your right to divorce should be snatched from you.  Most people understand that some of people will, the day they sign their divorce papers, be so glad that it’s finally over that they’ll want nothing more than to go out and celebrate, and this doesn’t make them bad people or mean they didn’t want their marriage to work out.  We have it in us, as a nation, to be respectful and understanding of the various ways that people can react to abortion without thinking this should have implications for reducing women’s rights.  And telling stories is the only way to get there.

*It’s the humor issue.  One of the missions of Exhale is to honor the many emotions people go through when getting an abortion, and let’s face it, some people get through anything by joking.  Jokes are valid reactions if they are there to express that you really don’t think abortion is a big deal, or to cope if you do.  I was eager to write for this issue, because I think that humor is a coping mechanism that women are guilt-tripped out of using.  If it makes someone feel better to read some funny stuff in Exhale while waiting in the doctor’s office for an abortion, I feel like I’ve made the world a slightly better place. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:47 PM • (73) Comments

This is a cool project to hear about.  I also like your “divorce” comparison.  I’ll be sure to deploy it if the topic comes up, because it’s really good.

On a negative note, I object to the use of “demagogue” as a verb.  Sadly, it’s creeping in to modern usage in a way that makes me feel stodgy for calling it a typo, but c’mon- “in order to engage in demagoguery about reproductive rights” just sounds so much classier.

Comment #1: Thomas  on  01/15  at  09:12 PM

For instance, parental notification is appealing to a lot of people, until they’re told that the only people really affected by it tend to be neglected or abused teenage girls.

Thank you so much, Amanda, for putting into words what I’ve always suspected about parental notification requirements. OF COURSE the only people whose circumstances they genuinely change are that of children who will be punished or abused for their abortions or sexual acts. Thanks again.

Comment #2: Erl  on  01/15  at  09:16 PM

Thomas, I’m one of those wowed over by academic arguments about how language is fluid and ever-changing.  “Demagogue” is becoming a verb because to say “to demagogue” flows much better than to say “to engage in demagoguery”.  It’s evolving into a verb precisely because demagoguery is becoming more prevalent, and so is the need to indicate it in language.  Don’t blame me for helping make “demagogue” a verb—-blame right wing demagogues for making that a necessity.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/15  at  09:23 PM

The divorce comparison is perfect.

Comment #4: Av0gadro  on  01/15  at  09:38 PM

Did you happen to catch NPR’s Talk of the Nation today? They had a panel of pro-lifers talking about the future of the movement after they got a negative election result. I really couldn’t believe how insane two of the guests were. They kept reiterating that to join pro-choicers in efforts to reduce abortions (birth control, sex education, plus improving living quality, better health insurance, living wages) was tantamount to approving of abortions. To paraphrase: “Reducing abortions isn’t good enough, so instead we’ll just keep calling you murderers and comparing this to the holocaust until someday you magically wake up and realize we’re right and outlaw all abortions.” Also they said that to demonize pro-choicers and women who get abortions was right on par with how evil they think abortion is, so no matter the political outcome it was what they had to do. And conservatives accuse liberals of being idealists? I’ve never heard people so uninterested in reality or pragmatism. It was frightening to realize just how stark the differences in our world views are.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99409402

Comment #5: Arvilla  on  01/15  at  09:38 PM

Your final paragraph (not counting the *footnote) would be a fine comparison if abortion and divorce were any way comparable. But divorce only ends a relationship. Abortion, in the eyes of opponents, ends a life.

Even religious people whose churches condemn divorce accept it in the civil realm. But they will never accept the legal right to abortion because they believe it is murder.

(The link I provide is actually Peter Singer’s summary of abortion. Not that I agree with him, but he is intellectually honest enough to accept the humanity of the fetus, before coming up with his philosophical definition of personhood that cuts off the fetus, as well as the newborn—who, lets be honest, is different from a late term fetus only by location—but manages to expand personhood so that I need to feel guilty for eating a hamburger. Cows and pigs, yes! Newborns, no!)

Sincerely,

Your Troll of the Day

Comment #6: Divorce does not equal abortion  on  01/15  at  09:54 PM

Considering that the hardcore anti-choicers we’re talking about also oppose sex education and birth control, I’d disagree about their motivations.  After all, sex education and contraception prevent abortion, so if you thought abortion was murder, you’d be open to hearing how to reduce it.

What is repulsive about abortion is that it gives women a means to reject the role assigned to them by fundamentalist Christians, which is ever-passive.  Controlling when you get pregnant, when you have children, when you marry, etc. is what is at the center of the objections.  My experience is that the suckers who’ve convinced themselves it’s about fetal life is that they’re still people who can be reached through reason and forefronting women’s stories.  We have a number of commenters here who used to be “pro-life”, but saw the light when they realized a) the anti-choice community takes measures to increase the abortion rate and b) that women’s lives are demonstrably improved by having access to abortion, even if they never have cause to use it.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/15  at  10:28 PM

Your final paragraph (not counting the *footnote) would be a fine comparison if abortion and divorce were any way comparable. But divorce only ends a relationship. Abortion, in the eyes of opponents, ends a life.

Q: How many legs does a dog have, if you call the tail a leg?

A: Four.

Comment #8: Mithrandir  on  01/15  at  10:29 PM

Huh, our troll isn’t very troll-y.  S/he was polite, offered evidence, surely intended to leave a link (though didn’t) and seems disinterested in calling us all sluts.

Comment #9: Antigone  on  01/15  at  10:33 PM

Also, your average Bible-thumper screaming about sex before marriage is wrong, etc. doesn’t object to divorce’s legality because they know that would reduce the people in the pews by 80%.  A lot of the lost souls who buy into fundamentalist lies are trying to recover from divorce.  Sadly, a lot of them couldn’t hold a marriage together because they buy into a lot of the sexist assumptions peddled by fundies—-that women and men are completely different (which makes communication seem pointless), that it’s wrong to have too much sexual experience (inclining you to marry the 2nd or 3rd person you sleep with, without really assessing if you’re a good match, because you don’t want to be a slut), that women who wait until a certain age are spinsters (same problem), that wives are essentially free servants for men (incurring female resentment that leads to divorce), etc.

Women file for divorce more than men, so it’s disapproved of by fundies.  But men do file for divorce, so it’s got to have “exceptions”.  The choice to abort lies solely with a woman, so it’s easy enough to say no exceptions.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/15  at  10:35 PM

Let’s hope, by labeling themselves a troll, they aren’t indicating that they plan to start acting out.  I’m assuming not, since I think everyone deserves a chance.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/15  at  10:37 PM

They kept reiterating that to join pro-choicers in efforts to reduce abortions (birth control, sex education, plus improving living quality, better health insurance, living wages) was tantamount to approving of abortions.

The truth is that they don’t want to support anything that reduces abortion because they think (rightly, I think) that such things approve of sex.  If you replace the word “abortion”’ with the words “sex” or “women’s rights” when anti-choicers talk, what they say tends to be more coherent.  For instance, to say, “I’m against abortion, so I’m against contraception and sex education,” doesn’t make a lick of sense.  But to say, “I’m against sex, so I’m against contraception and sex education,” you’re much closer to what they’re getting at.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/15  at  10:41 PM

Ahh, I see. On such different planes that I never would’ve been able to infer that abortion was code for sexual activity if you hadn’t explained it.

But that word switch only makes sense if they operate from a premise that all pregnancies that end in abortion were initiated by sinful sex, aka premarital. What if we’re talking about women who already have kids, are in loving relationships, but can’t afford more. They don’t even care to reduce those? To make any of what they say coherent you have to be plugging your ears and closing your eyes to actual irl situations and pretending everything takes place in lifetime movie charicatures…

Comment #13: Arvilla  on  01/15  at  11:09 PM

Arvilla:

Of course all pregnancies that end in abortion were initiated by sinful sex, because any sex for purposes other than procreation is sinful. (In fact, one gets a sense from the nuttier wingnuts that even sex for procreation is sinful, it’s just that it’s redeemed a little by the squalling monster, er, marvelous new life that it produces.)

Comment #14: paul  on  01/15  at  11:16 PM

On a lighter side, it’s really cool to be translated!  I used to write a computer column, and I still have the translations into Japanese.  Can’t read it…

Comment #15: James  on  01/15  at  11:35 PM

I particularly like the idea of women who had a blase reaction to their abortion, or one of plain old relief minus guilt/grief/gut-wrenching lifelong emotional trauma, having their stories heard. Anecdotally among my 30ish-40ish peers, “meh, needed to be done” seems to be general perspective (self included).

It’s simultaneously infuriating, though, that these public stories are necessary. I’d like to see individual wingnuts required to proffer their personal stories of polyp-removal, hernia correction and cyst-draining up for a public referendum on whether they’re actual human beings with private medical matters or Amoral Whores Hell-Bent On Killin. Lest we outlaw the practices (again!) in the name of god or teh childrens or whatever.

Comment #16: mir  on  01/15  at  11:41 PM

“For instance, to say, “I’m against abortion, so I’m against contraception and sex education,” doesn’t make a lick of sense.” Amanda


Let us not fail to mention that many forms of contraception are abortifacients; they work by causing an early term abortion. Rather than inhibiting ovulation, they work by preventing the fertilized egg, the tiny new human being, from implanting in the wall of the uterus. The IUD works in this fashion as do most forms of the pill (on occasion) and Norplant. So those who are opposed to abortion and those interested in protecting the well-being of women would certainly not want to be using these forms of contraception

Comment #17: michael mcgreevy  on  01/16  at  12:17 AM

Let us not fail to mention that many forms of contraception are abortifacients; they work by causing an early term abortion. Rather than inhibiting ovulation, they work by preventing the fertilized egg, the tiny new human being, from implanting in the wall of the uterus..

BZZZZTTTTT! Bogus misinformation alert!  Bogus misinformation alert!

Do go get your facts straight Michael, and try again.  Amanda has gone over this in great detail with reputable sources of physiologic information.  Shut up until you read up.

Meanwhile, I do know that an actual born human being who was my neighbor was murdered by an antiabortion fanatic.  I suppose that’s okay because she was helping women steward their bodies and their lives and their family lives when she was gunned down.

Comment #18: Ms Kate  on  01/16  at  12:21 AM

A skeptic and a rationalist should realize that something can be both the lesser of two evils and a moral good.  Is heart surgery a moral good?  Yes, of course.  Saving lives is a moral good.  I it the lesser of two evils? Absolutely.  It would be nice if we didn’t have heart disease in the first place.  But because we have heart disease—-and unplanned pregnancy—-it’s a moral good that we have ways to fix these problems. 


Thanks.  Exactly the way I put it, and have here, I think.  Both as heart surgery (because my husband had a triple and it is a vivid good and bad memory) and wisdom tooth extraction (myself, same reason, as well as much more universal and therefore less inconceivable/unimaginable to most people).

Comment #19: Helen H  on  01/16  at  12:42 AM

Dear Mr. McGreevy,

Please explain how a fertilized egg - single cell, no nervous system, no organs (only organelles, which any cell has), no consciousness (nor possibility of such) = a baby. Without using a religious explanation, since my religion believes no such thing. Your explanation must account for both identical twins and genetic chimeras, some stab at cojoined twins would be a bonus.

“It will be a baby someday if nobody interferes” is not acceptable. My parents’ blueprints will be a house someday, but nobody would claim arson if they toss them in the fireplace - and they have a far better chance of being a house nine months from now than any given random fertilized egg.

Comment #20: Tapetum  on  01/16  at  03:12 AM

Huh, our troll isn’t very troll-y.  S/he was polite, offered evidence, surely intended to leave a link (though didn’t) and seems disinterested in calling us all sluts.

The link was his/her name. “Divorce does not equal abortion”

Comment #21: JCfromNC  on  01/16  at  04:36 AM

I find it perplexing that many pro-life supporters also support capital punishment. After all, what else is capital punishment than an extremely late-term abortion.

Comment #22: BobbyV  on  01/16  at  08:53 AM

“Please explain how a fertilized egg - single cell, no nervous system, no organs (only organelles, which any cell has), no consciousness (nor possibility of such) = a baby. “


Biologists of every position on the abortion issue concede that human life begins at conception. That is when a genetically distinct individual with 46 chromosomes comes into being. At that point the color of the hair and eyes, the fingerprints, the predisposition to various diseases and so on have been determined. All that is needed are the proper oxygen and nutrients for the individual to grow into a healthy adult

Comment #23: Michael Mcgreevy  on  01/16  at  10:20 AM

Do go get your facts straight Ms Kate

Did you know abortion was defined in a Public Health Service document published by the U.S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare as follows:

“All the measures which impair the viability of the zygote anytime between the instant of fertilization and the completion of labor constitute, in the strict sense, procedures for inducing abortion” (source: Public Health Service Leaflet no. 1066, US Dept of Health, Education, and Welfare, 1963, 27). This includes chemical abortions like those caused by the Pill, Depo-Provera and Norplant.

Comment #24: Michael Mcgreevy  on  01/16  at  10:31 AM

That’s not human life, that’s human genetics. Difference, there. Life is generally reviewed as a means of the sum of a person’s functions: heartbeat, brain activity, breathing, digestion, all of those messy biological systems that keep us going. A blastocyst has none of those things. Without those diagnostic tools to determine if there is life, there cannot be called “human life.” When a patient is rushed to the hospital, because he isn’t breathing and his heartbeat is shutting down, the doctors don’t do a quick DNA test and say “well, he’s got 46 chromosomes and hair and eye color and fingerprints, and a predisposition to diseases, so this patient must still be alive.” Instead they recognize that the very processes essential to human life are shutting down and attempt to restart them.

More to the point, Michael Mcgreevy, you need to read up on things like molar pregnancies. It’s not just “proper oxygen and nutrients for an individual to grow into a healthy adult.” These things can go off the rails horrifically even if the pregnancy was healthy.

Also, don’t hairball tumors, with teeth and bones, don’t they have 46 chromosomes too?

Back on subject

Isn’t the counseling issue a matter of funding and availability? I thought that Planned Parenthood in areas that had the resouces offered pre- and post-abortion counseling for women. But it is fundamentally necessary. The abortion decision is fundamentally a decision between a woman’s own desires and goals and the deep ingrained conditioning to live up to others’ expectations and oftentime the reality of her situation. A woman needs a counselor who can remove the aspect of the decision that would just be done to make other people happy so that a woman can more carefully examine her own desires and the reality of her situation and know her options, and then (if there’s an afterwards) afterwards she needs to be able to talk to someone about how her decision sits with her, how she feels she’s been changed by it, etc.

Comment #25: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/16  at  10:47 AM

McGreevey, I have a PhD in public health.  I’ve done advanced graduate course work in pathophysiology at the Harvard Medical School.  My facts are likely straighter than you are.

All those “chemicals” you state suppress ovulation.  There was some theory that they suppress implantation at one time, but it has long since been debunked.

Get your information from somewhere other than a stupidmongering tank, and stop spewing lies on this board.

Comment #26: Ms Kate  on  01/16  at  11:23 AM

Biologists of every position on the abortion issue concede that human life begins at conception. That is when a genetically distinct individual with 46 chromosomes comes into being. At that point the color of the hair and eyes, the fingerprints, the predisposition to various diseases and so on have been determined. All that is needed are the proper oxygen and nutrients for the individual to grow into a healthy adult

From this point of view, anyone who chews on their lips or cuts their finger is a killer, since they are destroying cells with their own unique genetic blueprint.

Comment #27: atheist  on  01/16  at  11:27 AM

Biologists of every position on the abortion issue concede that human life begins at conception.

Wrong Again!!!! 

Remember, God is the biggest abortionist there is by this definition.  So why are you worshipping an abortionist, Michael? 

You don’t even fucking understand what the fuck conception IS ... hint, it is NOT FERTILIZATION!  Conception is implantation - which often doesn’t happen.  Even when it does happen, it doesn’t go anywhere a very high percentage of the time.  Go look some stuff up in a basic biology book.

Hmmm ... maybe we could start with the “mole babies” project, where we adopt a hydatitiform mole?  Yes, my precious little snoflake uterine cancer!

Comment #28: Ms Kate  on  01/16  at  11:28 AM

Hormonal contraception prevents ovulation and therefore cannot cause a fertilized egg to die, since no egg is released.  (In fact the hormones in hormonal contraception are the same ones given to women at risk of miscarriage, suggesting they’d make implantation more likely and not less. )  This includes Plan B.  See, to actually get pregnant, the man’s sperm needs to already be chillaxing in the cervix BEFORE the egg is released.  (If you knew anything at all about NFP like a good Catholic, you would already know this.)  So after a broken condom or badly-timed bareback, Plan B makes the woman’s body skip the ovulation step.  You can rest easy, McGreevy, the 90% or whatever of American Catholics who use the Pill or other hormonal methods have not given themselves shitloads of tiny abortions.

Comment #29: Yawgmoth  on  01/16  at  11:38 AM

Mr. McGreevey, if you’d like to post your address, all us ladies can send our used tampons and pads to your house so you can perform last rites on our menses.  You know, since we can never be SURE, can we, that there aren’t little teeny blastocysts floating around in the blood and uterine lining.

Damn, my uterus is mean.

Comment #30: speedbudget  on  01/16  at  11:52 AM

When Does Human Life Begin?

There is a tremendous consensus in the scientific community about when life begins.  This is hardly controversial.  If the claim were made that life was discovered on another planet, for example, there are well-defined criteria to which we could refer to conclusively determine whether the claim was accurate.  How do scientists distinguish between life and non-life?

A scientific textbook called “Basics of Biology” gives five characteristics of living things; these five criteria are found in all modern elementary scientific textbooks:

1. Living things are highly organized.

2. All living things have an ability to acquire materials and energy.

3. All living things have an ability to respond to their environment.

4. All living things have an ability to reproduce.

5. All living things have an ability to adapt.

According to this elementary definition of life, life begins at fertilization, when a sperm unites with an oocyte.  From this moment, the being is highly organized, has the ability to acquire materials and energy, has the ability to respond to his or her environment, has the ability to adapt, and has the ability to reproduce (the cells divide, then divide again, etc., and barring pathology and pending reproductive maturity has the potential to reproduce other members of the species).  Non-living things do not do these things.  Even before the mother is aware that she is pregnant, a distinct, unique life has begun his or her existence inside her.

Furthermore, that life is unquestionably human.  A human being is a member of the species homo sapiens.  Human beings are products of conception, which is when a human male sperm unites with a human female oocyte (egg).  When humans procreate, they don’t make non-humans like slugs, monkeys, cactuses, bacteria, or any such thing.  Emperically-verifiable proof is as close as your nearest abortion clinic: send a sample of an aborted fetus to a laboratory and have them test the DNA to see if its human or not.  Genetically, a new human being comes into existence from the earliest moment of conception.

Comment #31: Michael Mcgreevy  on  01/16  at  12:40 PM

Amanda,  Thanks for another wonderfully enlightening article.  I’m extending my subscription to pandagon!

Comment #32: Northern Virginia  on  01/16  at  12:50 PM

All that is needed are the proper oxygen and nutrients for the individual to grow into a healthy adult

So, if I take a fertilized egg and put it in a petri jar full of nutrients, I will eventually have a healthy adult individual, with eye color and hair color and diseases?!?!!

FAIL, Mcgreevy.

Where does it get the nutrients? Oh, nowhere special.

Comment #33: delurker  on  01/16  at  01:08 PM

We’ll ad McGreevey to the list of organ donors who we will force to give up their “spare” organs in order to maintain and preserve a human life.

That’s because he demands and wants to require that women give up their body parts to do the same.

BTW, an embryo is not really highly organized.

Comment #34: Ms Kate  on  01/16  at  01:13 PM

My facts are likely straighter than you are.

Heck, everything’s straighter than you are.

Comment #35: atheist  on  01/16  at  01:15 PM

Conception is implantation ?

Implantation into your mother’s uterus did not make you any more alive or human than did your first breath of air, your first meal, your first bowel movement, or any other arbitrary event in your life.

Comment #36: Michael Mcgreevy  on  01/16  at  01:16 PM

“Where does it get the nutrients? Oh, nowhere special.”
delurker

Nowhere special are your words not mine. The nutrients come from the mom.

Comment #37: Michael Mcgreevy  on  01/16  at  01:18 PM

1. Living things are highly organized.

An embryo is not highly organized.  No more so than a chicken embryo, and vastly less specialized than many things we eat.  A fertilized egg is less organized than yeast.

2. All living things have an ability to acquire materials and energy.

Okay, but so does a virus, and a virus isn’t considered to be life in the same sense.

3. All living things have an ability to respond to their environment.

See also, virus.  Also note that an embryo lacks this, as does a fertilized egg.


4. All living things have an ability to reproduce.

A fertilized egg can split into twins, but and embryo doesn’t even have that going for it


5. All living things have an ability to adapt.

Yep, and you had what for breakfast and lunch?  A human embryo or fetus lacks even this ability.  It can be the product of an adaptation, but can’t pass that on as it is.


In sum, I think you have made the case that a fertilized egg or an embryo is not a person, is not alive in and of itself, and therefore isn’t life.  You might have a case for a vegan diet, however.

Comment #38: Ms Kate  on  01/16  at  01:19 PM

Conception is implantation ?

Implantation into your mother’s uterus did not make you any more alive or human than did your first breath of air, your first meal, your first bowel movement, or any other arbitrary event in your life.

Boy, you really are the Crown Prince of the Kingdom of Failed Biology Forever, aren’t you?

Here’s a hint, dude: if YOU did not implant into YOUR MOTHER’S uterus YOU would not exist. Period. Full stop. End of discussion. YOU would have been flushed out of her uterus with the other sloughed-off bits of uterine lining that exited HER BODY every month with her menses. Like upwards of 40 - 60% of all randomly fertilized but not implanted eggs do.

Comment #39: Myranda  on  01/16  at  01:20 PM

YOU would have been flushed out of her uterus with the other sloughed-off bits of uterine lining that exited HER BODY every month with her menses. Like upwards of 40 - 60% of all randomly fertilized but not implanted eggs do.

Why do so many trolls worship the worst abortionist of them all?

Comment #40: Ms Kate  on  01/16  at  01:22 PM

Michael, do not come to my blog and lie.  Norplant—-all forms of hormonal contraception—-work by preventing ovulation.  Objectively, they function the same way as a condom, by keeping one sex cell away from the other.

The IUD does irritate the uterine lining so that fertilized eggs do not implant.  Medically speaking, this is not an “early term abortion”.  Abortion refers to the end of a pregnancy, and there are induced abortions and spontaneous abortions, known by the public as miscarriages.  If you were not pregnant, you could not abort.  If an egg doesn’t implant, you were never pregnant.

No form of contraception works by terminating a pregnancy.  Period.  Not one. Do not lie here.  If you lied on accident, because you were fed misinformation and swallowed it, then that’s okay.  Mistakes happen, of course, but if you persist, then you’re a willful liar.

Comment #41: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  01:25 PM

“McGreevey, I have a PhD in public health.  I’ve done advanced graduate course work in pathophysiology at the Harvard Medical School.  My facts are likely straighter than you are.

All those “chemicals” you state suppress ovulation.  There was some theory that they suppress implantation at one time, but it has long since been debunked. “
Ms Kate

The primary mode of action for an OC is to prevent ovulation.  However, the medical literature documents an incidence of three to five pregnancies per 100 women per year for OC users; thus, they do not prevent ovulation 100% of the time.  Though there are many studies that fail to show any ovulation at all even in estrogen doses even as low as 20 mcg, it has been shown that there are always a small percentage of women who, upon ultrasound examination, appear to be ovulatory on OCs, and those studies claim that even in such cases pregnancy is still prevented “because of other OC mechanisms of action, such as changes in the cervical mucus and endometrial lining.” (emphasis mine) (http://www.contraceptiononline.org/contrareport/article01.cfm?art=158)  If the affect of the OC upon the endometrial lining is preventing “pregnancy” after the occasion of ovulation breakthrough and conception, it does so by an abortifacient, not a contraceptive mode of action.  Women do get pregnant on an OC, so the endometrium is not rendered so hostile to the embryo that implantation is impossible, just less likely.

“90% or whatever of American Catholics who use the Pill or other hormonal methods have not given themselves shitloads of tiny abortions. “Yawgmoth

Sad part is yes thay have.

Comment #42: Michael Mcgreevy  on  01/16  at  01:26 PM

Also, do not lie about the positions of mythical biologists. You’re not much of a biologist if you routinely disbelieve that identical twins are separate people, for instance.  Real biologists will tell you that life began a billion years ago and has continued unbroken but evolving ever since.  This has nothing to do with the social definition of when you feel something is a person.

But I fully, 100% support your right to believe a fertilized egg is a person.  I will never, ever force you to go against your beliefs and have an abortion.  And in exchange, I expect you to respect my belief that human life is too precious to compare it to mere fertilized eggs.  If you cannot respect my religious freedom, then I’m afraid that I will have to call you theocrat that’s no better than those in Iran.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  01:31 PM

Michael, remember the first rule: If you have to lie to make your point, you didn’t make it.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  01:32 PM

There is a tremendous consensus in the scientific community about when life begins.

Yep.  One billion years ago, give or take a few million.  Trying to invoke the legions of biologists who supposedly are anti-choice is just amusing. I’ve known quite a few.  If they are personally anti-abortion, it’s for religious reasons and they admit that.  It has nothing to do with science, because if you know the first thing about science, then you realize that it doesn’t do a thing to support anti-choice conclusions.

Comment #45: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  01:35 PM

There is much medical literature that contradicts this notion that OCs cause abortions; unfortunately, however, not in terms that the pro-lifer can accept.  Much of this contradiction in the medical literature is a result of an equivocation over the word “pregnancy”.  The articles insist that an OC does not cause the abortion of a pregnancy, but they define “pregnancy” differently than those who argue that OC’s do cause abortions.  The National Institutes of Health and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists echo the consensus in the field of medicine: they insist that a woman is not “pregnant” until the embryo undergoes implantation, which happens about six days after conception!  For the pro-life life starts at conception.

So we pro-life can say, “I’m against abortion, so I’m against contraception” wich makes a lot of sense.

Comment #46: Michael Mcgreevy  on  01/16  at  01:36 PM

I’ve taught a lab in a medical school. I’m pretty sure my biology is straight.

Life doesn’t begin at conception because life is continual. The egg is alive, the sperm is alive - the life continues backwards to the first spark back in the primordial soup.  After fertilization it has a full complement of genes - just like any random somatic cell in your body. A cheek cell, for example, is alive and has a full complement of genes.

If a fertilized cell is an individual from that instant of fertilization on - how do you account for genetic chimeras? Because when two fertilized eggs fuse and develop, you end up with a single person with two complete sets of genes in their body. By your argument as seen so far, you’re implying that such a person should legally be two people. Contrariwise, you’re also arguing that identical twins are really only one person.

Oddly enough, I wrote a paper way back in college that mentioned these issues, only to have a teacher slap it down because “Nobody would ever be that ridiculous, to argue that individuality inherently stems just the genetics.” If I could send you back in time, I’d love to haul you in as counter-evidence.

Comment #47: Tapetum  on  01/16  at  01:38 PM

Michael, they’ve given themselves more faux abortions if they don’t use hormonal contraception, because they are ovulating more, fertilizing more, and having more eggs die off.

If you’re really so morally bankrupt, so lacking in human empathy that you can’t tell the difference between a cell and a living baby, then what you need to do is sterilize yourself immediately.  That way you don’t take any “human life” by creating it only to have it die.  Also, you do the world a favor.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  01:40 PM

however, not in terms that the pro-lifer can accept.

Well, of course not.  Contraception keeps you from getting pregnant when you don’t want to be.  That means you escape your punishment for fucking.  Not getting punished for fucking=abortion.  You had an “abortion” if you managed to get finished and cleaned up before your parents came home.

Comment #49: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  01:43 PM

Speaking of thing “wich make a lot of sense,” Mcgreevy:

The articles insist that an OC does not cause the abortion of a pregnancy, but they define “pregnancy” differently than those who argue that OC’s do cause abortions.  The National Institutes of Health and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists echo the consensus in the field of medicine: they insist that a woman is not “pregnant” until the embryo undergoes implantation, which happens about six days after conception!  For the pro-life life starts at conception.

So, scientists are wrong about when “pregnancy” starts, and they should bow to pro-lifers on this important medical issue?

(Since your earlier response to me indicates that you’re not super-great at picking up on sarcasm in writing, I’ll go ahead and clarify that I do not think you’re making very much sense here.)

Comment #50: delurker  on  01/16  at  01:45 PM

Amanda, I always wonder about that.

If you’re off of birth control, you’re having natural miscarriages - fertilized eggs that naturally fail to implant. And in MUCH larger numbers than the women ON birth control. I cannot understand how the anti-choice movement reconciles that. I see a few options.

1. Denial. Those facts are wrong. Because they don’t like them.

2. Deliberate ignorance. “What did you say? I wasn’t listening. Birth control causes abortions. LALALALA!”

3. Rationalization. This is the weirdest one. I think it assumes that God allows those natural abortions because God allows miscarriages all the time as part of His plan. But unnatural (birth control induced) abortions are wrong and murder and sad because…I guess because God was taken out of the loop. But how can you take God out of the loop? If he wants you to get pregnant, you will. In fact, how can you tell the difference between an “abortion” caused by birth control or a Godly-miscarriage in the same woman? Did God thin the uterus lining that week, or did the Ortho-tricyclen do the thinning? I don’t think this one hold up well to logical - revert to #1.

Comment #51: Essie the Energetic Elephant  on  01/16  at  01:49 PM

The notion that “pro-lifers” care a whit about science is a joke.  We’re talking people who believe in demons and angels, to begin with, so already we’re on shaky ground.  They also claim embryos have “experiences”, so their grasp on reality is really called into question.  They will make claims that sound scientific, but have been thoroughly disproven, like the link between breast cancer and abortion.  But they believe it must be true, because a woman who aborted escaped her punishment for fucking, so god will get her later down the road.  Believing that god (or demons) doles out punishment is not a scientific argument.

In sum, having a “pro-lifer” lecture about science is like having Jack Abramhoff lecture you about ethics.

Comment #52: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  01:51 PM

Well, I don’t know. I’m a recovering fundie, and I was raised pro-life. I believed it, at one time, for what it’s worth, but I can’t for the life of me remember why. Granted, we didn’t have all that science spread out on the internet for us to see - and even when we HAD internet, there were pedophiles on there, so Christian sites ONLY.

Looking back… I think part of it is the idealism. I don’t like abortion, so it must be outlawed. That idea that idealism should be enshrined in law fades with age. I also remember one boy asking me, in all serious, why pregnant girls don’t just give the baby up for adoption, rather than get a secret abortion? I was shocked, and then even MORE shocked by the words that came out of my mouth: “They don’t want their parents to know.” Those words shocked me because I had never really thought about it before then, but it was blindingly obvious to my 15 year old self. And, definitely, part of it was the carefully selected “science” - fundies are hugely sheltered and we’re told that all other people are lying / mistaken, which makes it hard to get a good book when you’re a fundie kid.

And even GOOD fundies suck at science. I had a fundie science teacher try to PROVE evolution to me in such a manner that I became a confirmed Creationist, simply because her science and logic sucked so very much. Having now read up on evolution by people who weren’t complete idiots, I’ve joined the sane section of the human race, but good grief, if you don’t understand something, you should NOT teach it. Gods.

Comment #53: Essie the Exasperated Elephant  on  01/16  at  02:02 PM

“No form of contraception works by terminating a pregnancy.  Period.  Not one. Do not lie here.  If you lied on accident, because you were fed misinformation and swallowed it, then that’s okay.  Mistakes happen, of course, but if you persist, then you’re a willful liar.”

Amanda Marcotte


The undersigned believe that the facts as detailed in this document indicate the abortifacient nature of hormonal contraception.  This is supported by the scientific work of the Alan Guttmacher Institute which can, in no way, be confused with a right-to-life organization.  We also want to make it clear that we have no desire to cause confusion and division among pro-life forces.  However, we do want to make it clear that we do desire that all women using the Pill are truthfully and fully informed about all its modes of action.

Marie A. Anderson, M.D., FACOG

Tepeyac Family Center

Fairfax, VA 22033

Paddy Jim Baggot, M.D.

Geneticist, Perinatologist

Pope Paul VI Institute, Omaha, NE

Thomas L. Bodensteiner, M.D., FACOG

Beatrice, NE

John J. Brennan, M.D., FACOG

Associate Clinical Professor of

  Obstetrics and Gynecology

Medical College of Wisconsin

John T. Bruchalski, M.D.

Diplomate,

American Board of

  Obstetrics and Gynecology

Medical Director,

Tepeyac Family Center, Fairfax, VA

William F. Colliton, Jr., M.D.

Clinical Professor of Obstetrics and

  Gynecology

George Washington University

  Medical Center

Lorna L. Cvetkovich, M.D., FACOG

Wichita, Kansas

Charles H. Dahm, M.D., FACOG

St. Louis, MO

Michael B. Dixon, M.D.,FACOG,

  Dip. ABFP

St. Louis, MO

Hans E. Geisler, M.D., FACOG,

  FACS

Director of Division of Gynecologic

  Oncology

St. Vincent Hospital and Health

  Centers

Clinical Professor of Obstetrics and

  Gynecology

Indiana University Medical Center

Kim Anthony Hardey, M.D.

Diplomate

American Board of Obstetrics and

  Gynecology

Lafayette, LA 70503

David R. Harnisch, Sr., M.D,

  F.A.A.F.P., J.F.A.C.O.G.

Beavercreek, OH

John F. Heffron, M.D., FACOG

Assistant Professor, Department of

  Obstetrics and Gynecology

Creighton University School of

  Medicine
Steve Hickner, M.D., FACOG

Assistant Professor, Department of

  Obstetrics and Gynecology

Michigan State School of Medicine

Thomas W. Hilgers, M.D.

Senior Medical Consultant, Pope

  Paul VI Institute

Associate Clinical Professor of

  Obstetrics and Gynecology

Creighton University School of

  Medicine

William J. Hogan, M.D., FACOG

Rockville, MD

Helen T. Jackson, M.D., FACOG

Brookline, MA

James Linn, M.D.

Associate Clinical Professor,

  Obstetrics and Gynecology

Medical College of Wisconsin

John C. Linn, M.D., FACOG

Milwaukee, WI

Julie Mickelson, M.D., Jr. FACOG

Board Member, AAPLOG

Bernard N. Nathanson, M.D.,

  FACOG

Perinatologist, New York, NY

James O’Connor, M.D.

Diplomate, ABOG

Manager, Ernst and Young Health

  Care Consulting

Konald A. Prem, M.D., FACOG

Professor Emeritus, Department of

  Obstetrics and Gynecology

University of Minnesota Medical

  School

Gary W. Smith, M.D., FACOG

Medical Director, Women’s Health

  at Robin Wood

Mark Stegman, M.D., FACOG

St. Louis, MO

Arthur J. Stehly, M.D., FACOG

Escondido, CA


Published in Linacre Quarterly, November 1999, p.26-35

I am sorry Amanda.  It is you who has been lied too.

Comment #54: Michael Mcgreevy  on  01/16  at  02:03 PM

Do you think Michael will ever start linking to his sources, or are we just supposed to take his word that 1. these people exist, 2. they actually signed anything, and 3. their opinions are worth anything?

Comment #55: Essie the Exasperated Elephant  on  01/16  at  02:07 PM

If you’re off of birth control, you’re having natural miscarriages - fertilized eggs that naturally fail to implant.

Just a quick correction so you don’t buy into the framing.  That’s not a miscarriage.  It’s a period.  They are engaging in all three.  They object to hormonal contraception mainly because it’s contraception, but it’s more evil than condoms, because a man can run interference on condom use and get you pregnant.  Anti-choice willingness to lean on the rape culture and perpetuate it is another indication of their inherent misogyny.

Michael is lying on many levels.  He’s reporting on anti-choice opinions as if he were simply reporting on them.  But he’s almost surely an anti-choice nut.  He’s using cherry-picked, outdated information.  He references mythical “biologists” without actually committing to actual statements.  When confronted by people who have more biology background than him, he ignores them.  He c/ps information that doesn’t make sense, and hopes it impresses by sheer force of being too much to read. When it’s refuted, he ignores it. 

The paper Michael links is out of date. If he actually knew anything about science, he’d realize that a 12 year old claim is something that probably generated more research down the road, and if he was sincere (he’s not), he’d look it up.  But I’m sincere!  The claims made in 1996 generated more research, and in 1999, the furor caused the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology to review *all* the research, not just one paper that made claims that anti-choicers want to hear.  Big quote, but worth reading: (See, unlike Michael, I actually want you to read my comments instead of merely be intimidated by the size and assume I have a point.)

After reviewing the available literature, the authors conclude that hormonal contraceptive methods (oral contraceptives, the patch, the ring, the shot) cause a number of changes in a woman’s body which prevent pregnancy. Primarily, what they do is simply prevent ovulation. In other words, take the pill and in almost all instances a woman won’t release an egg. No egg, no chance of pregnancy. The secondary way these contraceptives function, the authors report, is by preventing fertilization. So, on the very slim chance that a woman using a hormonal method does produce an egg another mechanism of action kicks in. Hormonal contraceptives also thicken the mucus lining of women’s reproductive organs which hamper the ability of the sperm to even get to the egg. And if a rogue sperm reaches the egg, hormonal contraceptives prevent it from penetrating the egg. Specifically, they stop the shell encasing the egg from disintegrating so a sperm can’t actually do the deed of fertilization. This is what is known about how hormonal birth control works.

What gets pro-lifers so worked up is that they insist on believing that a fertilized egg can be stopped from implanting in the womb. First off, hormonal contraceptives stop fertilization. What if, through some extraordinary, unknown, and seemingly unknowable process, an egg got fertilized? The researchers consider the question and report , “No direct evidence exists showing that implantation is prevented by progestin-only methods” and “The evidence does not support the theory that the usual mechanism of action of IUDs is destruction of fertilized ova in the uterus,” say the authors. After reviewing all the research available on the modes of action of all contraceptives in question the authors summarize their report by explaining that “Even though the precise mechanism of action of modern contraceptive is not yet fully known, scientific evidence suggests the main mechanisms of action for each method. Inhibition of ovulation and effects on the cervical mucus are the primary mechanisms of the contraceptive action of hormonal methods. Evidence indicates that the primary mechanism of action of IUDs is the prevention of fertilization.”

“All of these methods, directly or indirectly, have effects on the endometrium [the lining of the uterus] that might prevent implantation of a fertilized ovum,” the researchers acknowledge. But as they quickly point out, “So far, no scientific evidence has been published supporting this possibility.” There’s just no evidence that any birth control method prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the womb, even though that’s the basis for the pro-life claims.

Comment #56: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  02:13 PM

However, if you’re going to quote the Alan Guttmacher Institute and not the right-wing shill that this list came from (a list I cannot find on the Alan Guttmacher Institute site itself), they disagree with you when pregnancy begins…

http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/AntiabortionActivistsInTheirOwnWords.pdf

On the question of when a woman is considered pregnant, the medical and scientific communities have long been clear: Pregnancy is established only when a fertilized egg has been implanted in the wall of a woman’s uterus. The definition is critical to distinguishing between a contraceptive, which prevents pregnancy, and an abortion, which terminates it.

Here is YOUR source, whose veracity I doubt…

http://www.epm.org/artman2/publish/prolife_birth_control_pill/Birth_Control_Pill_Abortifacient_and_Contraceptive.shtml

Comment #57: Essie the Exasperated Elephant  on  01/16  at  02:13 PM

Cristina makes the most important point that should make you realize that Michael is lying twice over, first by claiming to be a mere devil’s advocate when he’s a Micheal’s advocate, and second of all, when he claims that he is actually concerned about the death of fertilized eggs.

What’s most striking about all this, is that, really, it should be a relief to pro-lifers. Birth control doesn’t have any effect on the egg once fertilized. The primary and secondary ways in which these methods work should be completely acceptable by the pro-life movement. In fact, though, they’ve taken just the opposite stance.

If your true concern is fertilized life (which makes you a moral monster in my book, since you prize that over actual people with feelings, but even assuming we respect that), you should be RELIEVED.  Lives aren’t being taken!  Rejoice!

But if your concern is punishing people for fucking, then you’ll be angry, because finding out that the birth control pill dramatically reduces the number of dead fertilized eggs means you’ve lost an inroad towards the goal of punishing people for fucking.

Presented with evidence that the pill prevents death instead of causes it, is Micheal RELIEVED or ANGRY?  The answer to that question tells you want you need to know about his motivations.

Comment #58: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  02:13 PM

Michael, a list of .001% of .001% of doctors proves that there’s cranks in every field.  Not much else.

Comment #59: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  02:14 PM

Do you think Michael will ever start linking to his sources, or are we just supposed to take his word that 1. these people exist, 2. they actually signed anything, and 3. their opinions are worth anything?

He proved that a handful of doctors are misogynist nuts.  This was already known.  There’s a number of misogynist legislators that were former ob-gyns.  There are a handful of cranks and nuts in every field.

Comment #60: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  02:16 PM

“Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love one another but to use any violence to get what they want.  This is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion.”  Mother Teresa

We are not going to see eye to eye on this folks.  At best we can hope for a better understanding of each other. That is my main goal. I think most folks here never get a chance to hear the other side.
I like to hearing what you all have to say. I may not allways agree but I come to a better understanding of how you think. I think Amanda, Auguste,J esse and Pam help me better understand how Feminist see the world around them.

Now I need to get ready for work.

Comment #61: Michael Mcgreevy  on  01/16  at  02:19 PM

See, I’m not even willing to give that he “proved” those doctors are cranks. I’m not the Google Fu expert, but I cannot find this supposed list except on right-wing shill sites. I CAN find the institute in question and they seem to be very sane and normal. I doubt this list, without some real evidence.

There was a list awhile back, online, of famous scientist who don’t agree with evolution or something. Turned out that the scientists were real, but that they had never agreed to sign such a list - they had agreed to receive a free magazine subscription (not knowing that it was a Creationist rag), and the magazine had listed their subscription list, deliberately, as people who ‘disagreed’ with evolution. Huge annoyance to real, genuine, sane people.

Comment #62: Essie the Exasperated Elephant  on  01/16  at  02:20 PM

Heh, and the door hits him on the way out.

And a Mother Teresa quote! I KNEW that I got his source. That link had Teresa in it, too. I roxxor.

Comment #63: Essie the Elated Elephant  on  01/16  at  02:21 PM

I think we all know that the real reason McSkeevy and others like him oppose the Pill is because it works. Used properly, it allows women to control their fertility with a very low failure rate. Women controlling their fertility is abhorrent to misogynists like him, because unavoidable pregnancy is one of the things they use to keep women down and dependent upon men. The “concern” for all the poor little baby zygotes is a red herring. If he really believed zygotes to be babies, he would never stop crying at the thought of all the death. For every live baby born, there is at least—at least!—one zygote that never implanted, and probably also an embryo that implanted but didn’t take and miscarried so early that the woman thought it was just a late, heavy period. That’s a hell of a lot of dead babies.

Comment #64: Karalora  on  01/16  at  02:22 PM

There is a tremendous consensus in the scientific community about when life begins.  This is hardly controversial.  If the claim were made that life was discovered on another planet, for example, there are well-defined criteria to which we could refer to conclusively determine whether the claim was accurate.  How do scientists distinguish between life and non-life?

Google that quote. McGreevy is plagiarizing again. He was told about copyright law, he was told about citations. His uncited quotes do not meet US fair use law. He is breaking the law and using your blog to host illegal content. He is making you his accomplice.

Comment #65: Mukasey v McGreevy  on  01/16  at  02:27 PM

Mother Teresa, the one who refused suffering people pain medication because suffering brought them closer to god?

Look, I’m aware that the divide between anti- and pro-choice is suffering.  You’re for it; I’m against it.  Glad to see you come closer to admitting it.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/16  at  02:48 PM

I am utterly shocked that a post about women’s voices being heard, women’s experiences being shared, would degenerate into some wanker talking absolute crap over and over.

Shocked, I tell you.

Comment #67: mir  on  01/16  at  02:54 PM

IP MASKER: KILLSCRIPT

Comment #68: DodgeRam  on  01/16  at  02:55 PM

To think, you just need to find 26 people with abbreviations after there name to make a scientific consensus. 

And minor correction, life on Earth started around 4 billion ya +/- hundreds of millions.


And finally, speaking as a biologist, Mcgreevy, please stop slandering me and my colleagues.

Comment #69: D  on  01/16  at  03:03 PM

Mother Teresa, the one who refused suffering people pain medication because suffering brought them closer to god?

Someone has been reading Hitchens, I see, or at least should be. I have that book, but haven’t finished it. Fascinating, and so sad that someone so ostensibly kind should be so horribly misguided.

Comment #70: Essie the Evil Elephant  on  01/16  at  03:20 PM

IP MASKER: KILLSCRIPT

Comment #71: DodgeRam  on  01/16  at  03:58 PM

Hey. Judging from previous post (that I can’t seem to comment on), you seem to be quite fond of appeals to popularity, guilt by association (“The Nazis actually agreed with the Christian right”), ad hominems, appeals to common practice (35% ofd women have had abortions), and hasty generalizations (all pro-lifers are religious).

~Nulono, from Restraont of the Heartless, a pro-life liberal athiest

Comment #72: Nulono  on  01/17  at  05:09 PM

As a card-carrying member of The Scientific Community, I can promise you with absolute certainty that there is no consensus on the question of when life begins, because that is not a scientific question, that is a philosophical question.  And thought most scientists dabble in a little philosophy on the side when the big badass questions come down (really, ask any theoretical physicist what they think about where the universe really came from), the field itself refrains from tackling questions that do not have meritable experimental evidence at their core.  This is not a scientific question.  This is a belief question.  The fact that you confound the two tells me that you have not a whisper in the wind of an idea of what science is about.

But then, no one here needs me to tell them that you’re full o’ shit, so it’s all good.

Comment #73: skylanda  on  01/17  at  08:41 PM
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