You LIEbrals need to stop having unprotected sex.  Always carry a handgun and a good fightin knife.

Rugged in Montana,
It was cute the first time, but the act is getting old fast. Either get new material, or get gone.

My wife just came up with an interesting suggestion. If the Mormons want to play rough outside their home turf, perhaps Prop 8 opponents should put together a coalition and go into Utah to change their laws in ways Mormons wouldn’t like. They couldn’t get gay marriage legalized, obviously, but what about legalizing gambling or liberalizing the drinking laws? The liquor and gambling industries are pretty deep-pocketed and would certainly respond to a grass-roots (OK, astro-turf) campaign to advance their interests.

Either get new material, or get gone.

Put me in yer pie file, Commie. I like pie.

There’s no “alleged” about it.  The Mormons were pretty damn blatant.

Even worse, I have it on good authority that the Catholic Church in New Jersey ordered its pastors to support McCain in the general election, to the point of donating money to the RNC.

I have it on good authority that the Catholic Church in New Jersey ordered its pastors to support McCain in the general election, to the point of donating money to the RNC.

If the Catholic Church wants to continue its social position and social control in the US, showing itself as partisan is not the way to do it.

In all seriousness, this is a major constitutional test.  If this is allowed to stand without legal sanction, then we may as well erase the establishment clause and rewrite the First Amendment.  If a religious bureaucracy is allowed to insert itself into the affairs of state, then the state should have a say over the affairs of the religion.  At the very least, LDS should be in serious danger of losing any tax-exempt status it currently enjoys.

Full disclosure: though I am not currently practicing under any specific denomination, I consider myself a Christian.  What the Mormons (and, according to Ellid, the Catholic Church) have done would make a jaded Pharisee blush.

I almost forgot.  Bravo, Pam, for keeping a spotlight on this.  I shall echo it in my God-forsaken corner of the Internets.

This has been brewing for some time.  Since our beginnings as a country we’ve been comfortable, as a society, in allowing a fundamentalist minority to dictate broader strokes of policy and law.

The question, how long will this continue and how will it be stopped?

RiM is a ‘bot.

Prove me wrong.

Ah, the wonders of religion.  Nothing brings people together like it does.

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But the bots that can quote from people talking to them are socialists (plus the occasional anarcho-syndicalist weirdo.)

There.  Bloviation accomplished.  Now all three of my readers will be up to speed.

Shut the whole fucking state down.  This travesty cannot stand!

You can also go to http://www.invalidateprop8.org and donate for the repeal. As long as you donate $5 then they’ll send a card to President Monson saying the donation has been made in his name, much the same as the Planned Parenthood (?) donation campaign did for Sarah Palin.

And there is also a link to http://www.mormonsstoleourrights.com/ where you can sign the petition and I believe get a pre-written letter for the IRS to investigate the tax exempt status.

That’s such a great sign - the “Those whom God joined, let no “church” separate”. It is so despicable that their are people out there who think their own personal beliefs/comfort levels should supercede the rights of others to love and be happy.

Of course, the entire “ballot initiative” process is entirely baffling to me, being a Canadian. Why is it that people get to vote on other people’s rights in the first place?

Love the counter-referendum idea, Sal. Had a vague idea of that, but I love your suggestions!

I vote for alcohol more than gambling, though. I know in Las Vegas, casinos tend to hire Mormons because of their honesty and overall resistance to the temptations of gambling. Mormons and liquor, however, is a different thing. A better combination, overall.

I’ve two anecdotal datapoints on the tendency of outtatown Mormons to imbibe when Not In Utah. One was an online story written by someone who got a “job” as a security guard at the Republican National Convention and watched how the Mormons, faced with temptations of liquor, were the inebriated late-nighters at the convention. Second, I’ve heard tell from a friend who lived and worked for a Utah-based company; he clucked his tongue at the shenanigans of those (ahem) innocents who, when traveling out of state to trade shows would indulge and did NOT know their limits. Friend was kinda like DormMother, aiding the poor dears ere they got sick, etc.

So, on the basic principle of having us in California avoiding such tacky displays of binge-alcohol ill-judgement when Utah-based mormons come visit our fair state in the pursuit of trade show business, I’d support a referendum to make the sale of alcohol far more lax than it currently is in Utah State. Besides, there’re a bunch of non-Mormons in the greater SLC area who’d prolly go for a little loosening up. I call that a win-win!

The Normans weren’t responsible for Preperation 8, it was Caliphate-lovin LIEbrals who voted in Ohdamnit that voted against the gay.  It’s called The Bradley Effect people, when those who want to appear to be swingin hepcats who are “cool” with gaiety, but secretly aren’t.  That’s most of California, and they make up a huge new voting block, The False Hepcats, which are akin to Soccer Moms and Hippie Carpenters and Beer Swillin Basement Residers.  These are the poor LIEbrals that are forced by society to appear tolerant of all sexualities when in fact, they’re prudish and conflicted and maybe latent SO JUST LEAVE THEM ALONE!!

RiM is a ‘bot.

Prove me wrong.

Have you ever seen Sneakers? There’s this scene where in order to get a voiceprint from the dorky security guy at the super high tech firm, they set up the saucy token female on a fake computer dating service date.

Anyway, through various stuff, they get interrupted mid-fake date while the heist is going on. Since the villain, played by Ben Kingsley doesn’t know she’s part of the heist team, she just plays it off cool, and mentions as she’s acting indignant that she never should have used a computer dating service.

This actually tips off Ben Kingsley, because no computer could possibly make a big enough mistake to match her with the dork.

See what I’m getting at?

I vividly recall the last time I attended an LDS church (which is BTW the religion I was raised in) in 2000 when Nevada was to be place the issue on the November ballot. I kid you not, they handed out signs and petitions AT CHURCH! They either need to cease this political manipulation or forfeit their tax exempt status.

Apparently, there will be a protest tomorrow at the Salt Lake City temple.

Dare I hope that the gays and the Mormons will wipe each other out in an epic, Book-of-Mormon-like battle, leaving Christians to inherit the earth?

Dare I hope that the gays and the Mormons will wipe each other out in an epic, Book-of-Mormon-like battle, leaving Christians to inherit the earth?

Ugh. I bet you were masturbating when you wrote that.

What a sociopath.

“Dare I hope that the gays and the Mormons will wipe each other out in an epic, Book-of-Mormon-like battle, leaving Christians to inherit the earth?”

“cause, like, y’know, how there are no gay Christians, no gay Mormons, and Mormons are not Christians, and all.

Dare we hope that someday Christians might consider looking into following the teachings of Jesus?

Dare I hope that the gays and the Mormons will wipe each other out in an epic, Book-of-Mormon-like battle, leaving Christians to inherit the earth?

Ostiarius on 11/07 at 02:56 AM

Such a fine, upstanding, christian attitude you gots there, Republican’t Putsch fellator.  Maybe you can self righteously congratulate yourself on being such a stawart emissary of teh jeebus the next time you go to church…

Plus, originally RiMjob sounded like a bad imitation of the worst of the Reich wing.  Now it just sounds like the same old religiously insane conservitard horse hockey spray-blaming kimchee we’ve all come to know so well.  Stupid and catapulting Reich wing propaganda ain’t no way to go through life, son…

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The only questions I have are these:

1.  Is it true that Joseph Smith plagiarized the Book of Mormon from an unpublished novel?

2.  How does the LDS church respond to the complete lack of any archaeological evidence for its pre-Columbian history, including no sign of a battle at the Hill Cumorah?

3.  Why did the LDS church fund the anti-ERA campaign in the 1970s and excommunicate Sonia Johnson?

4.  Is it true that every woman must bear five children because Mother and Father in Heaven are continually breeding?

5.  Do you ask permission from non-Mormons before performing posthumous baptisms on their relatives?

6.  What about the Hofmann documents?

Somehow I don’t think this is what they have in mind.....

Here’s the thing: These protests are not changing people’s minds....especially the people who vote.

In all seriousness, this is a major constitutional test.

It really is—on both the federal level (in terms of the 1st, 9th, and 14th Amendments) and the state level (in terms of the standards used for a ballot initiative to change the CA constitution). The discrimination of the new language is so blatant and wide-ranging that the appeals courts will be hard-pressed to ignore this.

The Xtian fantasists might have had a short-term victory in CA on Tuesday, but there’s a strong (although by no means certain) possibility that they’ve shot themselves in the foot on the national level.

Here’s the thing: These protests are not changing people’s minds....especially the people who vote.

But the people who didn’t vote on Tuesday on this issue are getting an education on the consequences: religious fantasists can change the state constitution to take away a group’s rights.

And even people who voted for Prop 8 are going to think twice. A case in point are “traditional” Latinos, who might want to consider that the same Know-Nothings who consider America a Xtian nation also tend to be anti-immigrant. If the Know-Nothings can push through a discriminatory initiative on marriage, they could do the same on employment or residency—especially in hard economic times.

Dare I hope that the gays and the Mormons will wipe each other out in an epic, Book-of-Mormon-like battle, leaving Christians to inherit the earth?

Will the Catholics be considered Christians at that point?

So Uhura, should we shut up, go home and wait until you decide we are well-behaved enough to be equal under law with you?

I regret to inform you that foundation of civil rights is not based on whether you agree with someone. But I don’t regret that this principle is widely recognized by the US government. The amendment will not stand.

So Uhura, should we shut up, go home and wait until you decide we are well-behaved enough to be equal under law with you?

Hell no.

But the emotionalism is not working.

Folks will need to be more organized and calculating....

I regret to inform you that foundation of civil rights is not based on whether you agree with someone.

Paris on 11/07 at 08:21 AM

Quite right.

But the question is - how can gay rights advocates work quickly to effect change while the country is primed for it?

Uhura, a movement can have enough room for organization and calculation AND direct activism. After the neutered, timid No on 8 campaign, I think it was a good idea to take to the streets in this manner. People have never, never gotten civil rights by standing out of the spotlight and asking ever so politely.

Seriously, Uhura, your complete rationality schtick is getting old. 

People aren’t rational about this, because their fellow citizens just took away their fucking rights!  They’ve just been told that 52% of their fellow citizens think 18,000 of their marriages are worthless, that all of them are worth less as people than straights.  Of course they’re upset!  I wish I were in CA, ‘cuz I’d protest along with them.

I don’t doubt that there are people “organizing and calculating” right now, and I don’t doubt that when people have calmed down, a new strategy will emerge.

But for fuck’s sake, give people time to grieve and be angry and to show the world that this affects them.  I doubt that anyone who doesn’t understand why those damn gays are being so irrational about the whole thing are of a mind to restore marriage rights to them, anyway.

But the question is - how can gay rights advocates work quickly to effect change while the country is primed for it?

Protests are part of a larger effort, and can be effective. The march in CA over the immigration bill is a good example: well-organised, well-planned, well-co-ordinated with other efforts. It was emotional in a peaceful way, but it scared the heck out of mainstream people who realised that, done every day or even once a week, it would effectively shut down key industries in the state. The immigration bill went down in flames, and the protests were one part of making that happen.

To that end, I’d love gay folks and their supporters (especially celebs and athletes) in S.F. and L.A. to show the state what “2 Days without Gays” would do to the entertainment, tourism and tech industries.

Also this isn’t being organised by some limited and monolithic group of “gay rights advocates”—lots of people are opposed to this for reasons that have little to do with whether they like homosexuals or not.

You’ve been talking a lot in the last few days about understanding how we have to reach and understand our own communities, and doing a lot of dancing around when it comes to the nature of ingrained homophobia in mainstream black America. Constructive criticism is fine, but as an African-American woman who claims to know the community well, what’s your calculated suggestion on under-cutting it?

I actually don’t have a problem with churches being involved in politics. Long before there was a ‘religious right’ there was a ‘religious left,’ and it accomplished great things, from the Underground Railroad to the Civil Rights campaign.

More recently in Canada, the United Church (our largest Protestant denomination) helped lead the fight FOR legal recognition of SSM.

I don’t know enough about U.S. constitutional law to speak on whether what the Mormons got up to violated separation of church and state, but I’m not sure that’s a great avenue of appeal. Sadly, there will always be well-funded retrograde, fear-mongering campaigns against social progress. We have to learn how to beat them.

I’m dismayed that Proposition 8 passed. But I have faith that it’s a temporary setback and that the cause of personal liberty shall ultimately prevail.

We are taking to the streets here in my part of CA (Central Coast). For my part, I’m not doing it to persuade Yes-voters or non-voters. I don’t think that this issue should ever have been subject to a vote in the first place. There is something frankly outrageous and obscene about subjecting the rights of a minority group to majority referendum. That’s why we live in a Republic rather than a strict Democracy. Our proposition system here in CA is horrible.

I’ll be out on the streets today for the gay, lesbian, and bisexual people for whom this decision has been devastating and intensely personal. I’ll be there to make it clear that there are many Californians of good will who want to honor, preserve, and protect their families rather than stripping away their legitimacy.

But the question is - how can gay rights advocates work quickly to effect change while the country is primed for it?

The country still isn’t “primed” for civil rights for black people by your measures, so they shouldn’t have rights?  Would have you have honestly suggested that the protesters under MLK sit down and wait until people were “primed”?

I wish the parties would stop pushing people to vote straight party ticket.  We were supposed to push that in my local party and I said no, because when you vote straight party, you don’t case a vote on important prop/bond issues.  I think if every Democrat in CA had bothered to manually fill it in and go to the end of the ballot prop 8 could have turned out differently.

You’re just wrong in general, Uhura, and also arguing in bad faith.  You don’t want to gays to have rights, and so you’re discouraging behaviors that will get those rights.  People should listen to you and then do exactly the opposite of what you say.  Protesting bigotry is actually very effective, which is why bigots like you hate it.  It exposes you for the hateful assholes you are.  It was effective in the civil rights era precisely because it made white people of good will question their own racism.  It made hardened bigots like yourself lash out, true.  Thank god you lash out on the internet now, instead of in the streets, no?

I completely understand why people are in the streets and hell, I wish I were there to join them. But I’m less sure than some that this is part of an effective repeal strategy. And I have to say, where was all that energy when a pathetic 49% of voters turned out in SF County?

I hope that right now there’s as much organizing and fundraising as demonstrating in the works.

P.S. I hope people will also get behind efforts to hit the Mormons where they live, both with boycotts and with an effort to challenge the church’s tax-exempt status. That also strikes me as more effective than demonstrations. Don’t just get mad- get even!

Please tell me this isn’t going to derail into another 300+ post thread devoted to the new attention whore. ‘Nuf said about that, I think.

And I have to say, where was all that energy when a pathetic 49% of voters turned out in SF County?

We were all peroccupied with the bigger elephant in the room: McCain / Palin. I know it now seems like Obama was inevitable and we should have focused more of that energy on Prop 8, but at the time we were more concered with beating the possibility of a federal ban on gay marriage (McCain) than beating the possibility of a state ban on gay marriage (Prop 8).

Although I will mea culpa on my own stupidity - I didn’t give to No on 8 because, frankly, I just didn’t see how California could pass it? Haven’t we been told for years that they are the liberal mecca? I bought into the media narrative and now I feel sick about it, but I’m sure I wasn’t the only one.

Uhura!

Screw you.  These people are not being aggressive enough.  They were just declared non-human by Californians.  By Californians that are traitorous anti-American terrorists.  Why exactly should one sit quietly when one is attacked and declared an animal?  Hell, less than an animal, since California decided animals deserve better treatment, while gays deserve worse.  That the proponants of Prop 8 are not at this moment hanging from lampposts is a sign of extreme restraint by protestors.  When the British wanted to introduce the Stamp Act, Americans rioted and forced the Brits to backdown for fear of their lives.  That was over a freaking penny tax - this is over human rights.  We celebrate the opposition to that tax as a major demonstration of the power of Americans to oppose tyranny.  But evidently, according to you, when confronted with worse tyranny, Americans should meekly sit in a cornor (or do you consider them Americans, since now they are less than animals?).  That Salt Lake City today does not look like Atlanta after Sherman is a black mark on the honor and dignity of the United States of America - the last time some state wanted people to be subhuman, we crushed them and made them serve detention for a couple of decades - that South Carolina is even now not denied representation causes any true American to feel disgust and horror that traitors prosper.  Utah should be stripped of all Congressional repreentation, have armed forces camped in its cities ready and willing to shoot as traitors any who even suggest that gays are not entitled to marry, and its leaders forced to crawl on hands and knees from SLC to DC to beg to be allowed to re-enter the Union - to expect anything less is to embrace tyranny and inequality, to side with the Confederacy and British Loyalists - the Tree of Liberty must occassionally be watered with blood, and there is an entire “Church” that offered itself up as an irrigation source on Tuesday; who are we to deny them their chance to “serve” America?

What are the limits on bringing this back for another vote? Does it have to wait four years, or can it happen in the next congressional cycle?

For the reasons Ellen described, progressives might have better success if there were only this issue to deal with.

Your schtick got old days ago, Uhura, and I hope Amanda bans you before you bring another thread down the tubes.
The more I think about Prop 8 the angrier I get, and I can’t stop thinking about it.  It is not gay people’s responsibility to convince other people to get on board with full and equal civil rights.  Some people will never come around but that should have NO bearing on the law of the land.  I just can’t understand how the pro-Prop 8 folks got away with defending the measure by claiming religious freedom.  Their religious freedom ends where other people’s noses begin!  Hindus (for example) don’t have the “religious freedom” to forbid Mormons from marrying, or atheists from marrying, or dyslexics from marrying.  This whole thing has just had me full of rage since Wednesday.

I was wondering if anyone knows why we have to have 66% approval for a federal amendment (2/3 of states) but only 51% approval for a state amendment?

A big way to deal with folks who think it’s okay to hate based on their religion is hit ‘em where it hurts: their pocketbooks.

In California, you boycott those companies that supported Prop Hate. In Utah, you boycott all businesses. Just don’t go that state, no matter how sweet teh skiing is.  Same goes in other states where the voters think it’s okay to vote away other people’s rights. 

You also make a LOT of noise about revoking the tax-exempt status of churches—and remind people that the more tax-exempt religious welfare hogs there are out there skating free on other people’s money, the higher their own taxes are going to go. It would be good if we had numbers to show, such as “every tax-exempt church costs YOU X dollars in higher property taxes...”

If at possible, urge associations you belong to NOT to have conferences in hate states.  Particularly California.

You’re just wrong in general, Uhura, and also arguing in bad faith.  You don’t want to gays to have rights, and so you’re discouraging behaviors that will get those rights.

I have no idea about her opinion on gay (really, human) rights. What I do suspect is that she has some very strong and, shall we say, “interesting” views on mainstream black men that are more important to her than gay rights (or indeed, the rights of anyone other than herself). It’s not bad faith, but it’s not good faith either.

Which is all to say, no need to go to the extreme of banning her—she’ll be going back to lurking soon enough. And that’s a shame, because she could contribute some constructive ideas if she could get past her own ego and whatever personal demons she’s wrestling.

Enough meta-talk. I’m liking these ideas.

I was wondering if anyone knows why we have to have 66% approval for a federal amendment (2/3 of states) but only 51% approval for a state amendment?

California initatives are referendum-style popular votes, which traditionally work on the 51% model. The Federal government as a representative republic doesn’t have a nation-wide equivalent, and the framers wisely decided that Constitutional amendements are too serious and wide-ranging to entrust to a simple majority, even in a republic.

I’m not a big fan of the California initiative system for a number of reasons, but I’d mind it a whole lot less if they required 66% of the popular vote to make any change to the state constitution.

I think if every Democrat in CA had bothered to manually fill it in and go to the end of the ballot prop 8 could have turned out differently.

There’s a straight ticket option in California?  What county are you in?  In LA County you have to pick every office and every prop, and Prop 8 still won by 20,000 votes.

The problem with a ‘representitive government’ is that when something is placed on the ballot and a majority of ‘the people’ vote for it, it looks like the people have spoken.

There are many issues here to fight and one is the catholic/mormon entanglement with politics which is against the constitution but ‘the people have spoken’, as it were, and they voted to pass prop 8.

Now people have to decide if they want to contest this. If illegal means put the porp on the ballot, then that’s great to repeal it but rather than working to repeals this and have them pass another one that gets repealed, again, the people that want to overturn prop 8 should fight the core of the issue which seems to be the faux religious bigots and their political power.

You can’t fight this with ‘education’ because one look at Sarah Palin and her incredible pride at being nearly dumb as a stump and you get to see why so many idiots support such awful ‘religions’ as catholicism and mormonism and, yes even ‘scientology’.

When you look at mormonism and scientology, they were both created by madmen and both have a way to ‘twilight zone’ esqueness to them. Only an idiot could follow them…

I don’t know, maybe education could help. That commercial about the home invasion was spokey…

What the country needs now is the ability to take a step back and think what it’s like to be someone else. Someone who is barred by law to enjoy the rights and responsibilities that this country affords its citizens… many of the less intelligent aren’t capable of thinking of more than what soap or episode of Idol is on today…

I’m not a big fan of the California initiative system for a number of reasons, but I’d mind it a whole lot less if they required 66% of the popular vote to make any change to the state constitution.

Here’s the fun part, Gracchus—a 2/3rds majority is required to pass any kind of tax hike or bond measure, but we can amend the constitution of California with a simple majority.

It’s pretty fucked up.

Fortunately, since people are already used to proposition wars and having the same damn thing come up over and over again, it’s definitely not impossible to get a new constitutional proposition on the ballot to repeal this one.  It takes about 600,000 signatures and a lot of money, though.

You’re just wrong in general, Uhura, and also arguing in bad faith.

Of course I am “just wrong” ..because Almighty Whitey hath deemed it so.

(((eye roll)))

You don’t want to gays to have rights, and so you’re discouraging behaviors that will get those rights.

That’s bullshit. I was only fucking with the assholes who were rude to me. Of course I want social justice for everyone.

People should listen to you and then do exactly the opposite of what you say.  Protesting bigotry is actually very effective, which is why bigots like you hate it.  It exposes you for the hateful assholes you are.  It was effective in the civil rights era precisely because it made white people of good will question their own racism.  It made hardened bigots like yourself lash out, true.  Thank god you lash out on the internet now, instead of in the streets, no? Amanda Marcotte on 11/07 at 09:48 AM

You’re ignorant and naive and all the other things that come from living as a White Woman who is used to things working out [i[her way

I read alot of what you post here and it’s quite a lot of WhinyVictimCrying.

You don’t know a thing about me - other than my ability to get the numbskulls here riled up.

Hey: One way to fight this could be to eliminate church weddings. Churches aren’t necessary to get ‘married’ and the ‘religions’ of the world are getting too high on the hog to realize that they aren’t necessary at all… They lay claim to ‘marriage’ as a ‘religious institution’ when it clearly is not.

If the church and minister/reverend/father aren’t able to pronounce people married anymore, that might take a lot of the wind out of their sails…

Start a movement to get people to stop marrying in a church, ANY church…

That and find some way for them, the religions, to OWN their hatred…

I went to a catholic wedding over the weekend and all of the ‘love’ and ‘support’ that the minister said made me pull back for fear of getting hit by the bolt of lightning that was surely to come from all those lies… They don’t believe in a ‘worldly’ and ‘compassionate’ god. Their god hates and hates the same people they do. It was a surreal experience… Very cultish…

The urge to stand up and scream ‘BULLSHIT!!!’ was almost uncontrollable…

At least our prop 1 and 2 died in Michigan…

I have no idea about her opinion on gay (really, human) rights. What I do suspect is that she has some very strong and, shall we say, “interesting” views on mainstream black men that are more important to her than gay rights

Oh my gawd...It’s SO interesting to see how White people think.

Tell me something…

Are you high right now?

(or indeed, the rights of anyone other than herself).

No - that’s a White thang.

Which is all to say, no need to go to the extreme of banning her—she’ll be going back to lurking soon enough.

If I do -it will be because I’ll have grown bored watching you folks cry and complain and chasing your own tails.

And that’s a shame, because she could contribute some constructive ideas if she could get past her own ego and whatever personal demons she’s wrestling. Gracchus on 11/07 at 10:54 AM

Hey now - How can a “troll” contribute “constructive” ideas?

Fortunately, since people are already used to proposition wars and having the same damn thing come up over and over again, it’s definitely not impossible to get a new constitutional proposition on the ballot to repeal this one.  It takes about 600,000 signatures and a lot of money, though.

Oh, in a state with 36-million people, I think they’ve pissed off enough voters to get the signatures needed. And while not all gay Californians are wealthy celebrities, I suspect that people who work in the three industries I mentioned above will be putting up some serious money.

Oh my gawd...It’s SO interesting to see how White people think.

Does that mean you disagree with my general assessment about your views?

No - that’s a White thang.

You yourself started out by bragging about your selfishness. I don’t think that self-interest in necessarily a bad thing, let alone limited to any one race.

If I do -it will be because I’ll have grown bored watching you folks cry and complain and chasing your own tails.

I’ll accept that excuse if you follow through.

Hey now - How can a “troll” contribute “constructive” ideas?

Hey now, when have I ever called you a troll? As it happens, I don’t think you are one.

Protests CAN change people’s minds.

Both for the good and the bad…

The problem with protesting to religious people is that their ‘faith’ acts like a huge set of blinders. They are programmed by their ‘faith’ to ignore those around them. Some to do more than actually ignore, but to actively fear everything that the leaders say they should be afraid of…

Dancing, women, books, movies, music, talking, television, radio, electricity, thought, education, human rights, environmentalism, socialism, humanism, women’s rights, democrats, liberals, blacks, hispanics, whites, alcohol, rayon, g-strings, women in pants, educated people, science, reading, logic, expression… Yes, that and much more are things that threaten the weak’s control over the followers of ‘religion’. It’s a hell of a racket if you can get into it… Ask ‘Stevie B’, the Baldwin mental case who couldn’t break into acting like his psycho brothers and gave his life to money and illogic and full control of others…

I once asked: ‘Can religion exist without hypocrisy’ and ‘What came first’.

Choosing to protest at Mormon churches is an excellent idea. Make their behavior have consequences!

I like the idea of boycotting Utah and Prop-8 California businesses. I don’t live in nor visit either state, but surely they export goods and services? Does anyone have a list of products or brands to stop buying?

Protests CAN change people’s minds.

I’d amend that to “Effective and focused” protests. As International ANSWER demonstrated in 2003, you can bring out huge numbers to a street demonstration and still alienate potential supporters and play right into the MSM’s bogus and timid narrative. The immigrant march I mentioned above is the model that the anti-Prop-8 forces should look to after the initial emotion inevitably dies down.

All hale the mighty Uhura! She of the racism… All racism flows unto her.

I am white and I’ve been racially assaulted. I’ve been intimidated by members of your race. So keen to ‘settle the score’, they lash out at any target. Any white target. I’ve been cutoff in traffic, shoulder checked walking down the street, had to wait for restaurant wait staff to wait on me. I’ve experienced it.

I know the anger, I can feel it. Some of it is understandable. Some of it is highly destructive. Yes there is racism here in America. From both sides. Coming here and urinating on everyone isn’t a constructive use of your time. Getting people ‘riled up’ isn’t winning you converts.

Is gay the new black?

TECH ISSUE??
wth?  I was trying to find the originals of various comments, since the reaction to Uhura seemed so over the top, and several different strings ONLY occurred as quotes, so are comments being dropped/deleted or something?

Protests can change people’s minds in unintended ways too…

Both positive and negative.

Here in Michigan, the teachers unions did themselves no favors when they took the bait and their demonstrations got nasty…

are comments being dropped/deleted or something?

Yes. This is a moderated site. Sometimes comments do disappear and sometimes people just cherry pick what they quote in their reply and use inter-paragraph/inter-sentence chunks…

<blockquotes>wth?  I was trying to find the originals of various comments, since the reaction to Uhura seemed so over the top, and several different strings ONLY occurred as quotes, so are comments being dropped/deleted or something? </blockquotes>

The site has been acting a little wonky for the past few days, but I haven’t seen any problems like you describe. Glad to help confirm a bug, though.

And at this point we’re just having fun with Uhura!, as oppressive White People like the owners of this site are wont to do.

You’re looking pretty riled up to, ulara or whatever your name is.

And what’s the point to trolling if instead of working other people into a blood-vessel-bursting rage, you get there yourself?

srsly. l2troll.

Is gay the new black?

PinkyLeftBrain on 11/07 at 11:37 AM

No..but stupid is as stupid does…

Do I seem emotionally engaged here? LOL!

I acutally yawned just now.

The problem with protesting to religious people is that their ‘faith’ acts like a huge set of blinders. They are programmed by their ‘faith’ to ignore those around them. Some to do more than actually ignore, but to actively fear everything that the leaders say they should be afraid of…”

There are certainly a small minority of religious institutions that treat their followers in the manner you describe.  But they are not the majority.  That’s like the other side claiming every gay person is a leather chaps wearing AIDS carrier.  Of course we all know that is not true.  The challenge is that most religious people are actually reasonable adults that are perfectly willing to discuss topics and have an open mind about them.  And it is this group that voted for Prop 8.  Many of them CAN be convinced to change their position through education.  Many can be convinced to change their positions through personal interaction.  As we all know, the gay next door is different than “the gays” talked about in the media.  To assign religious brainwashing to Prop 8 voters defeats future efforts in 2 ways: It is patently false, and it removes effective lines of grassroots political action from the discussion that could prove effective.

Bye, Uhura.  I’m getting repeat requests to ban you for incessant trolling.  A number of our readers and one of our bloggers just saw a dramatic reversal of their basic human rights.  Your utter insensitivity towards them is appalling.

OUCH!!! That hurt, you…

I was thinking of William Bennett’s comment on CNN when I wrote that. Yes, now that there is a ‘black’ president, blacks have reached the ‘level of whites’. Well, according to him, the idiot that hypocritically told others to live their lives the way he couldn’t as he fed his gambling addictions…

The world is full of ‘fallen people’… People rarely live up to their own belief of themselves…

People thought, pre-prop 8 that gays had ‘made it’ too, only to have that snatched from under them. All because the forms said what: ‘First party’ and ‘second party’? Sheesh…

The right is fighting over a definition of a single word! How stupid is that… Marriage means what it means. Even some of the backers of prop 8 are serial monogamists who fear sex outside of marriage more than they support the idea of marriage.

I have tried to talk to several cathlics that I know about gay marriage and gay rights.

They seem like sensible people, generally, except when certain topics come up. The mental programing pops up to wave it’s ugly putrid hand.

I fear that MOST of those people and people like them CANNOT be reasoned with on CERTAIN issues and gays and abortion (and the war) are those issues in my experience… The walls go up, the blinders are on and you can’t get through… It’s a shame that so many religiions that claim to respect human life and god’s creation so hotly hate so much of it…

(Sorry I picked on Uhura)

The challenge is that most religious people are actually reasonable adults that are perfectly willing to discuss topics and have an open mind about them.  And it is this group that voted for Prop 8.  Many of them CAN be convinced to change their position through education.

For once, a good assessment from you: the problem with the average voter who approved Prop 8 is indeed ignorance.

Where I’d disagree with you is that the majority of religious institutions do prey on ignorance when it comes to wider public discourse--they have more than a thousand years of experience at that game, whereas our side only has about 300.

That should read “whereas our side only has been around about 300.” Previewing—it’s a good thing.

Protesting at churches teaches those voters their bigotry will be publicized to their children and peers. Such a consequence may inhibit them from expressing their desire to limit the rights of others. Even if such a protest does not inhibit religious bigots from voting for or supporting oppressive laws, it exposes their bigotry to public examination and, hopefully, a broader public condemnation.

No - that’s a White thang.

Go fuck yourself with something rusty. Seriously.

Unfortunately, it’s completely acceptable for churches to advocate for issues.  It only becomes a problem when they explicitly endorse candidates.  I think it’s bullshit, but there it is.

It would be nice to go after that New Jersey archdiocese for endorsing McCain.

For once, a good assessment from you: the problem with the average voter who approved Prop 8 is indeed ignorance.

It’s partly ignorance but I can tell you as someone who witnessed this campaign on my TV, radio and answering machine that there were a huge number of bald-faced lies told to convince people to vote in favor of the proposition.

I’m not sure how much of a “moral victory” it is when you can only win by lying outright to people, but apparently some “Christians” think that lying to your fellow citizens to get them to vote the way you want is A-OK, but lying to the Nazis about the Jews hiding in your basement is morally questionable.

I’d love to shut Uhura and her unconvinced rational homophobia in a room with my redneck kinfolk in east Tennessee, who tell you that black people aren’t equal to whites—they just KNOW it—and let them jaw at each other for a while.

It’s partly ignorance but I can tell you as someone who witnessed this campaign on my TV, radio and answering machine that there were a huge number of bald-faced lies told to convince people to vote in favor of the proposition.

It was mainly ignorance on the part of the average (as opposed to activist) Pro-8 voter: ignorance of how the law and government work in America (so they fell prey to the “judicial activism” lie); ignorance of the Establishment Clause (so they fell prey to the “state’s gonna force our church to marry homos” lie); ignorance of the fact that, for the state, marriage is soley a contractual agreement confering a package of legal rights (so they fell prey to the “state agrees with you that marriage is super-special and magical” lie); ignorance of homosexuality (so they fell prey to the “fags want to convert children to their lifestyle” lie); ignorance of dealing with openly gay people (so they fell prey to the “gay people are scary” lie); and ultimately, ignorance of the generally accepted message of their own holy book.

So yes, mainly ignorance, balanced out by some good old fashioned spite and fear. As for all those lies, those were the product of the religious fantasists who routinely prey on ignorance for their own power-mongering purposes.

The only thing that seems to affect change in both the ignorant and the liars is economic hardship. Which leads me to another idea…

The Sundance Film Festival is coming up this January—I don’t think Park City as a whole ought to be punished, but I think that film industry people attending should organise an effort to spend not one thin dime outside the town limits (including SLC and the airport), and should also investigate which Park City business owners contributed to the Pro-8 effort and give them the custom they deserve: none. Robert Redford has spoken out eloquently on a lot of liberal causes, and it’s very appropriate for him to do so on this one.

The Prop 8 people need to have the same discussion the Republicans are having today.  What can we do to win next time?  Living in Utah I fully understand the rage against the LDS manipulation of the system but I don’t think it’s particularly useful.  Blaming bigots for being bigots doesn’t really get you anywhere.  They’re still going to be bigots.  You can’t appeal to someone who holds a belief on an emotional basis with logic.

Start with this.  52% ain’t exactly an ass whuppin’.  Perhaps it was the over concentration on Obama that stole resources from the Prop 8 fight.  But excuses are like assholes....

Next time there has to be a ruthless GOTV machine.  I wonder how many people who were dancing at the Castro didn’t vote?

Gay bullies threaten Mormans and Catholics, beat up elderly couple with Prop8-Yes signs..

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/11/07/unhinged-losers-prop-8-opponents-threaten-mormons-and-catholics/

Mnemosyne, I thought every state had a straight party selection.  Apparently CA doesn’t--my mistake.

That’s right folks, it is all the fault of the Jews, no wait, Mormons.  Mormons are 2% of the population people, if Mormons were actually the force behind Prop8 there would have been nothing to worry about.  Mormons are barely a blip electorally.  Guess what.  Prop 8 got way more that 2% of the vote.  So go ahead and get mad a the Mormons it’s way easier to whip yourself into a frenzy against a small group of weirdos than to think about what to do about the other 50% of people who voted for this thing.

Blaming bigots for being bigots doesn’t really get you anywhere.

Punishing bigots for being bigots does, though—if right-wing religious fanatics understand nothing else, they understand revenge. The Church of LDS in CA and UT spent money promoting Prop. 8, and now they can bloody well lose more money as a consequence of its passage. Same goes for any other large donor or non-Mormon church that contributed lies and money.

As I said, I’m not for punishing the entire state of Utah or every individual Mormon—that would be absurd. But I’d like to see Utah liberals pointing out exactly which businesses and towns in Utah are run by the Church apparatus or other major donors to Yes on 8, so we can hit them in the pocketbook.

if Mormons were actually the force behind Prop8 there would have been nothing to worry about.  Mormons are barely a blip electorally.

If you’ll read the quote of the protest organisers above, the reason these demonstrations are focused on the Mormon Temple in Westwood, and the Church in general, is not because of the power of its voting bloc, but because the Church of LDS as an institution poured millions of dollars into the “Yes on 8” media campaign. In military terms, they were a major force multiplier.

There are definitely church organisations out there that are just as culpable, and I’m sure they’ll be targetted by the protesters as well.

Mormons are 2% of the population people, if Mormons were actually the force behind Prop8 there would have been nothing to worry about.

They may be 2% of the population, but they donated 40% of the money behind Yes on 8, more than any other group. 

But, hey, why should we be worried that a tax-exempt religion is using millions of dollars to influence elections?  After all, theocracy imposed on the larger population by a small but better-funded group is working out so well in the Middle East right now.

You DEMONcraps should stop targeting the LSD with you’re protests as it offends the Normans.  They simply disagree with people being born gay and sent tens of millions of dollors to fringe groups so they could control the policies of a neighboring state.  That doesn’t give you the right to protest THEM!!  You’re showin you’re religis bigotry by not believing what they do and besides, their hoppin mad that you didn’t let them have multiple wives, so you get what you deserve.

uhura, seriously: shut up. you are full of shit, you are lazy, and you are passive-aggressively projecting. you keep calling people emotional when YOU are the one who has never provided ANY logical reason for not liking gays. NONE. you are a lazy fuck, telling other people they have to prove to you that gay people are normal human beings. no one owes you a goddamn thing so stop with the attention whoring until you can come in here and act like an adult. you are a waste of time because you are full of shit. you don’t want logic. you want to act like a toddler, whining when you don’t like something. no one cares what you like or your opinion on families. you just ain’t that important, sweetheart.

also lol at larry posting michelle malkin. that bitch is on crack. i feel really sorry for you, thinking she has any attachment to reality.

“Blaming bigots for being bigots doesn’t really get you anywhere.”

Punishing bigots for being bigots does, though—if right-wing religious fanatics understand nothing else, they understand revenge.

You miss my point.  Go ahead and boycott the shit out of them, serves ‘em right.  You aren’t going to change them though.

What could “we” have done to get another 2.1% of the vote?  How many people stayed home because they ‘knew’ CA was going for Obama and ‘knew’ that a liberal state like CA would never pass Prop. 8.  THAT’s why Prop. 8 lost.  Do you think that the average CA citizen who was against Prop 8. gave a rat’s ass about those stupid ads?  They got their people out and we didn’t.  Never blame an election loss on anybody but yourself.

What could “we” have done to get another 2.1% of the vote?  How many people stayed home because they ‘knew’ CA was going for Obama and ‘knew’ that a liberal state like CA would never pass Prop. 8.  THAT’s why Prop. 8 lost.  Do you think that the average CA citizen who was against Prop 8. gave a rat’s ass about those stupid ads?  They got their people out and we didn’t.

This is why I would support a gag order on the national news networks starting to call the race before all the polls are closed across the country. You want to discuss local election results on local news? Fine.  But they were projecting an Obama victory long before California polls even closed, which meant that last minute voters could assuage themselves with the idea that “enough” had been done to ensure victory for their side.

And Retief, you are a fucking idiot. It’s not Mormons as a voting bloc that is the problem, it’s that the church keeps stepping into the politics of OTHER states and influencing elections.  In 2000 and 2004 they took advantage of Nevada’s initiative laws to enshrine discrimination in the state constitution by funneling HUGE amounts of money into the state for billboards, ads, mail marketing, etc.  I had to experience that firsthand and it’s about time the LDS church starts suffering for it. Churches that want to play politics need to start paying for the privilege. If they want to keep their tax exempt status then they need to STFU.

Church of LDS as an institution poured millions of dollars into the “Yes on 8” media campaign.

This is factually incorrect.  The Church of LDS as an instituion poured zero dollars into any campaign.  The church leaders asked the individual Mormons to support the campaign and individual Mormons donated to it or not as their concsience and circumstances dictated.  They donated a lot.  It is pretty pathetic though if a bunch of single-income families of five can out-raise the dual income no kids gay community. 

At any rate, Magis is right.  Prop 8 was 10 points down in the polls a couple of months ago.  When you squander that kind of lead, it is nobody’s fault but your own.  Were the people protesting now out walking precincts before the election?  Were they phonebanking? Did they even show up on election day? San Francisco, I’m looking at you.

history_mom, thanks for the name calling.  I always know that means you have no sustantive argument to make.  What the devil does “OTHER states” mean?!?  You think there are no Mormons in California?  Or Nevada?

At any rate, Magis is right.  Prop 8 was 10 points down in the polls a couple of months ago.  When you squander that kind of lead, it is nobody’s fault but your own.

Really?  It’s our fault that your side resorted to telling bald-faced lies to turn the election?

You may as well steal your neighbor’s TV tomorrow—after all, they left their door unlocked, so it’s not like it’s morally wrong for you to steal it if they practically invited you in, right?

Mnemosyne, I’m shocked, shocked to find lies in politics.  BTW, if your side is “no on 8”, we’re on the same side.

This is factually incorrect.  The Church of LDS as an instituion poured zero dollars into any campaign.  The church leaders asked the individual Mormons to support the campaign and individual Mormons donated to it or not as their concsience and circumstances dictated.

So in other words, the Church leaders over in SLC were actively campaigning on one side of a political issue in another state, and seeing substantial results as measured in dollars (and, apparently, campaign volunteer hours)?

Here’s a little section of Federal tax code (which is why the “other state” part matters) those Church leaders might be interested in:

Section 501(c)(3) describes corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literacy, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in section (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distribution of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

I emphasised the relevant sentence for you. Hope for their sake they filed Form 5768 with the IRS (that’s the exemption form that allows them to announce, per “Section H”, that they’re involving themselves directly in politics). I’m looking forward to seeing it—assuming they filed it.

Not enough?

From IRS Publication 1828 Page 5,

Substantial Lobbying Activity
In general, no organization, including a church, may qualify for IRC section 501(c)(3) status if a substantial part of its activities is attempting to influence legislation (commonly known as lobbying). An IRC section 501(c)(3) organization may engage in some lobbying, but too much lobbying activity risks loss of tax-exempt status.

Just how substantial a portion of the Church’s activity this year was involved in changing the CA state constitution? I’m not sure, and the lawyers will do their level best to muddy the waters. But the Church better enjoy its carefree tax-exempt status while it can.

Mnemosyne, I’m shocked, shocked to find lies in politics.

And yet Yes on 8 supporters are claiming that their campaign of lies was a moral victory.  Little hint—if you’re going to try and claim moral superiority, you should probably at least attempt to keep a veneer of actual morality. 

BTW, if your side is “no on 8”, we’re on the same side.

Uh-huh.  Most of the people who come on here to defend the possibly illegal shenanigans of the Church of Latter-Day Saints in this election are really people who wanted the proposition to fail, but they just can’t stand to see those upstanding Yes on 8 supporters maligned.

I think that it is commendable that the majority of the state of California has decided not to put the state’s seal of approval on same sex unions.  Proposition 8 simply states that California won’t recognize a marriage between same sex couples.  We are not beating gays or driving them from the state.  We are simply saying that the form of marriage we want taught to our children and approved by the state is the one that was approved by God (man and wife).  It is gays and lesbians that keep pushing their beliefs on other people – not the other way around.  Gays are always pushing to get more accepted, if you just did what you want in your own home and stopped trying to get my approval and consent by asking me to validify your immoral actions I would leave you alone to do whatever you wanted.  The problem is gays don’t stop at getting left alone, they want approval, then they will get all bent out of shape because school kids are not taught how to have safe sex with someone of the same sex.  I am sorry, I don’t want my children taught that it is acceptable to live in an unnatural and immoral union.  Furthermore all the talk about being upset by a group of people donating to a cause that they find important is a little one sided.  How about all the famous actors who donated more by themselves then most of us will make in half a lifetime.

Gracchus,

The church helps teach people correct principles.  The individuals then act for themselves.  Donations given were given by individuals.  This has nothing to do with a “Church” influencing the matter any more then when they say that unborn babies deserve to live or that people should learn as much about the people and issues and pray about them before voting.  The churches tax exempt status is not in question because they didn’t pay for anything and as far as I can tell giving moral advice is the churches job.

Let’s just find some billionaire to put an initiative on the 2010 ballot to deny California recognition to Mormon marriages.  Or Swedish marriages.  Whatever.  The point is not to vote for it.  The point is to put it on the ballot and confront people in terms that make the bigotry of Prop 8 visible to Prop 8 supporters who don’t think they’re bigots.

That would focus people’s minds on what’s really going on here.  Might change a few minds.

We are not beating gays or driving them from the state.  We are simply saying that the form of marriage we want taught to our children and approved by the state is the one that was approved by God (man and wife).

In other words, you want your religion’s definition of marriage to be enforced on the entire population, including people whose religion does not have the same definition.  And you were willing to openly lie to the people of California to get your way once you discovered that telling the truth meant that you would lose.

Breaking the Ninth Commandment in order to force your religious beliefs on your neighbors.  I’m sure Jesus would be proud of you today.

Gracchus, have you forgotten Prop. 22?  All these questions have been hashed and rehashed years ago. 

Mnemosyne, what’s with the accusations of bad faith?  Just because you can’t manage to be against both hating on gays and against hating on Mormons doesn’t mean I can’t.  Anyway, same question to you as tot he protesters: where were you when it was time to knock on doors and get out the vote and show up at the polls.

Just because you can’t manage to be against both hating on gays and against hating on Mormons doesn’t mean I can’t.

I don’t hate Mormons as people.  I hate Mormons (and Catholics, and Evangelicals/ Fundamentalists) who think that their moral beliefs automatically trump my moral beliefs and that they can use the government to inflict their moral beliefs on people who don’t share them.  I especially hate them when they get their way based on a campaign of blatant lies while claiming to be morally superior to me.  The Mormons are getting an extra-special share of hatred right now since they were 40% of the total money donated to Yes on 8, but I have plenty left over for everyone else who thinks I should be required by law to follow the dictates of their religion.

Anyway, same question to you as tot he protesters: where were you when it was time to knock on doors and get out the vote and show up at the polls.

Making calls for the Obama campaign.  Sorry, I only have 24 hours in my day, so all I could give to No on 8 was money.

Seak and Retief, you and your church are immoral and hateful.  Get out of my country, get off of my planet.

Seak, I hope you are struck down by your God in a way that proves how wrong you are, you hatemognering piece of slug dropping.

By the way, church leaders on any level using their position to take a political stance is STILL ILLEGAL and is grounds for loss of tax-exempt status.

By the way, church leaders on any level using their position to take a political stance is STILL ILLEGAL and is grounds for loss of tax-exempt status.

I don’t think that’s true. they can’t support a political party, but I believe legislation is still within their status.

They are, for example allowed to say “Abortion is immoral and you should support legislation to make it illegal” but they can’t say “and therefore you should vote republican.”

similar to those 527 Nonprofit who take out attack ads. as long as they don’t use a set of like 8 keywords, they can say pretty much whatever.

Retief: I’ve lived in Nevada for more than a decade. I know how many Mormons there are here and it was not enough to finance the initiatives in 2000 and 2004, which is why money was funneled into the state from organizations in other states.  And while I did call you a fucking idiot (which, objectively, you are) I also made an argument why you are a fucking idiot.  That your reading comprehension is limited...well, that tends to go along with your idiot status.

And Seak, you define dumbass bigot.  As an atheist, your definition of marriage has absolutely nothing to do with me.  PEOPLE created marriage, PEOPLE have redefined it for several millenia, and PEOPLE turned the institution over to the state to regulate.  Sky fairies had nothing to do with it and, according to our Constitution, should have nothing to do with it.  Gays are not asking for your approval; they are demanding that the state recognize their civil rights instead of allowing dipshits like you to continue to treat them as second-class citizens.

“As an atheist...”

No ****. Your lack of native intelligence marks you as one.

Seak and Retief?  Can I see your magic underwear?

/r/ SRB. Ostiarius.

I’m sick of being insulted by someone who doesn’t have the brainpower to do anything but.

karpad: Wasn’t the church specifically telling people to vote yes on H8?

No ****. Your lack of native intelligence marks you as one.

Oh yes, because thinking for herself instead of mindlessly believing in illogical dogma makes her unintelligent.

oh, and seconding the call for the stick rule please.

Ostiarius-

intelligence

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

that is to say, it does not mean “shares my opinions.”

karpad: Wasn’t the church specifically telling people to vote yes on H8?

probably. Not a Californian, so I don’t know the exact wordings of their campaign. but rallying for a law is nonpartisan in a way that rallying for a candidate is not.

it’s a pretty nuanced distinction. and one that shows that set isn’t categorically opposed to nuance, only when the nuance is being used by their political opponents.

Hmmm. Pam, I thought you’d add something to this post about the racist comments from gay protesters, you know like on your site. But in a strange twist of fate the one feminist blog that developed a reputation for having some nuanced views n race is blacking out that part of the story. Interesting.

I’m (half) Black and a Republican and I frankly support gay marriage. But if some white douche is going to call Black passerbys N@gger” and then try to claim he’s in some way more oppressed than Blacks I’m kinda glad they didn’t get their way.

But, why isn’t this post updated with the same info on House Blend? What could possibly be the difference between Pandagon and other “liberal” sites? I wonder....

“To that end, I’d love gay folks and their supporters (especially celebs and athletes) in S.F. and L.A. to show the state what “2 Days without Gays” would do to the entertainment, tourism and tech industries. “

I LOVE this idea!

And I was absolutely gasping and THRILLED when I heard on the radio yesterday that protesters were marching to the Mormon temple in LA. People canNOT take everything sitting down!

Rob Taylor, could it be that you’re a gibbering racist douche?

Mnemosyne, I couldn’t agree more that who think that nobody should use the government to inflict their moral beliefs on people who don’t share them.  I do think there are plenty of lies etc. to go around.  More to the point, I’m sure you’ll agree that if the people out there protesting had put as much energy in before the election, they’d be celebrating now. 

History_mom, are you against fucking now too?

They have shots for rabies, Damian. (But not for hayseededness, I’m afraid.)

History_mom, are you against fucking now too?

The stupid. It burns.

I’m calling for a judgment on the stick rule here. I don’t think Retief meets the bar.

Or the stick, as it were.