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Next entry: I Want To Be An Ombudsman Previous entry: A Note To Smaller Bloggers

Q of the day, part 2 - products you loathe

Fun Stuff

That earlier thread on favorite products is a roaring success, here's the thread for your worst experiences with a product, food or service—it simply didn't live up to the expectations as advertised in terms of performance, taste or competence.

The list may be just as long here. Obviously each person's experience varies with even the same product or service may differ.

Off of the top of my head…

*KaBoom Bowl Blaster Kit. What was I thinking? This is a foaming cleaner that's supposed to bubble up to lather the sides and rim of the bowl and make scrubbing minimal or unnecessary. So Kate and I put the blaster in, and instead of watching it foam up and fill the bowl, it fizzed up about an inch and then just stopped. The bubbles didn't even "scrub" for that matter.

* Neuton Cordless Hedge Trimmer. Boy, this was feeble. Kate and I are big fans of the Neuton Electric Cordless Mower, so we figured this addition to the lawn tools would be helpful. That didn't work out. It really couldn't cut shrubs unless they had really thin branches and the power drained so fast from the battery from the tool laboring so hard to cut that I went back to the manual hedge trimmer. Eventually I just got a corded one.

I'm sure you'll have more. Have at it.

 

 

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Posted by Pam Spaulding on 07:00 AM • (44) Comments

My HMO, Kaiser Permanente, which has a bunch of people who really are trying to do good things, but is just too weighed down by its penny-wise and pound-foolish administration.

Less universally, Tiger Direct, which sold me computer “kits” in which the parts explicitly did not work together without updating the PROMS.  This is tricky when the computer itself does not work until you do it, if you catch my drift.

Comment #1: Punditus Maximus  on  08/10  at  07:21 AM

Hmm, I like Kaiser pretty well.

Anyway, I despise Twinkies. They make me vomit. On a slightly higher technological plane, iPod Shuffles are possibly the worst idea anyone at Apple ever came up with. It is to the iPod what the Harry Potter movies are to the books, what Elektra was to Daredevil... you get the idea.

Comment #2: Jeffrey  on  08/10  at  08:16 AM

I’ve never used this product, but every time I see a commercial for the “Alli” weight loss drug, I just can’t believe anyone would use it. I mean, they tell you to bring extra clothes to work because you’re absolutely going to shit yourself! Any product that works by making you crap yourself at work is nothing I’d ever, ever, EVER want to use!

Comment #3: Scott  on  08/10  at  09:27 AM

Hey, the shuffle is what makes yard work so much better. Small, light, clips anywhere and when shuffling, you never know what’s coming next.

I have an issue with Dyson vacs. I have dogs and an all tile house and using the Dyson is a pain because the air outlets blow the air downward in front of the vacuum. I have to literally chase the balls of fur around with it or use the hose. It makes vacuuming a chore some days. I have found another surprising use for a ceiling fan and any furniture that is low to the ground. Turn the fan on high, wait a half hour and all the hair is underneath the stuff. Finding it is easier. Physics.

Not exactly a ‘product’ but I loath commercials. And not just the teevee kind either. Blaring your stupid product into my cranium isn’t going to make me want to buy it stupid! Although I do like Flo from the Progessive commercials. Crazy with an under current of harmlessness.

Windows Vista. Everything about it. Nuff said…

Oh, from the other thread, here’s the number one disappointment lately. The HP Color Laserjet 3600. It’s advertised as being ‘Mac compatible’ and the drivers aren’t quite Leopard compatible and they appear to not care. It will work for a while and then *POOF* disappear or the now infamous just refuse to print. On the Apple support site people are carping about the total lack of support for this printer and a rather large number of other HP printers too. Like what gives? Shitting on mac users because they are such a small segment of the user community is getting riskier as the number of mac users climbs (thanks to Vista). Hey HP, time to grow up and realize that being better than Epson takes some work… It appears that the entire 3xxx model class are orphaned and not recommended for Mac users… Very sad.

Comment #4: PinkyLeftBrain  on  08/10  at  10:48 AM

Oh, one that will sure bring lots of comments. Cigarettes. As population control, they are brilliant but I don’t like breathing the second hand smoke.

Well, and that actually brings up another loathsome creature: Industry ‘scientists’. You know the ones. They declare that things that you know are dangerous really aren’t. Like second hand smoke… As long as the checks don’t bounce, they will spend their lives defending the indefensible

Comment #5: PinkyLeftBrain  on  08/10  at  11:13 AM

Tea Tree Oil.  Not a brand, I know.  I’m not sure if I’m allergic to it or something, but anything with tea tree oil turns my skin into a riot zone. 

The Gap re-designed their denim line a few years ago and BETRAYED ME (i.e. they got rid of my favorite cut and changed all their jeans to be totally anti-Opoponax-having-a-nice-ass).  Though I’ve been known to buy other things there; in fact I should have put their underwear in the “favorite brands” thread.

Washington Mutual.  God they have boned me so many times…

Comment #6: The Opoponax  on  08/10  at  11:18 AM

Opopomax, re: redesigned Gap jeans - ME TOO!!!  I was so frustrated. I have little to no ass to speak of, and fairly non-curvy hips, and finding jeans that make me look like I’ve got any curves at all is an exercise in frustration.

Comment #7: Betsy  on  08/10  at  11:38 AM

Kaboom! comes in a powder that flies up and lingers in the air, guaranteeing that you will suck some into your lungs and have a five-minute coughing fit.

Comment #8: LynstHolin  on  08/10  at  11:40 AM

Apple Software Update.  Why the hell do they keep trying to push Safari on me?

Comment #9: Ah Clem  on  08/10  at  11:44 AM

Compaq computers. I should explain that I now work in computer refurbishment, so I have to get old computers (sometimes a decade or more old) to run our inventory/data security software, and remove the hard drives if this doesn’t work. So in my several months of experience, guess which brand tends to give me the worst times? I have to get into the BIOS; some very old Compaqs don’t seem to have one (I’m supposed to insert a floppy…) The laptops have very rickety, easy-to-disconnect power inputs and so are likely to shut down if I breathe on them. And worst of all, their hard-drive caddies are designed to frustrate removal, often using glue as a connecting mechanism.

Admittedly, more modern Compaq desktops and HPs have reasonably easy ways to remove and install hard drives, and the more modern BIOSs tend to allow me to forbid booting from the HDDs and Ethernet connections (the older ones don’t). But these more modern systems tend to refuse to let data security software run at all, or worse, to pretend to run it and then break down after an hour or so of wasted time.

I can remember when Compaq, back in the days when MS-DOS was new in the mid-80s, had the reputation of being both more portable than other PCs and more reliable. And HP used to have the reputation of being just plain rock-solid, at least as far as calculators and such. I still use a decade-old HP calculator that I once spilled coffee on; I just had to change the batteries and back to life it came.

Sometimes corporate synergy just seems to optimize the worst features of both partners; in the case of the HP/Compaq merger it seems to have created new evils out of nothing.

Comment #10: Mark Foxwell  on  08/10  at  11:49 AM

Natural Balance dry cat food killed my cat, and I make a point of telling that to everyone I meet.  Cheap bastards and their lethal rice gluten from China.

Bank of America.  Everyone I know (including myself) who’s been with Bank of America has at least one horror story, including the friend who found herself in the lobby of her BofA branch screaming, “My money would be safer in a mattress than it is with you people!”  Even if you’ve been with them for years, some day, some way, they WILL fuck you over.

Comment #11: Mnemosyne  on  08/10  at  12:21 PM

Hoover Floormate. It doesn’t really scrub very well. It doesn’t get within an inch of the edges of the floor, so you have to get down on your hands and knees to scrub anyway. And for all that lack of effectiveness,  it takes up a lot of room in the closet and the cleansers you’re supposed to use in it are available only at particular home centers (Lowes), which are inconvenient to the car eschewing.

Comment #12: Bo  on  08/10  at  12:32 PM

Cell phones.

Wait.  In deference to their usefulness in emergency situations and the occasional other conveniences they provide, I will amend that to read, 1) cell phone companies and their ridiculous, expensive, zillion-minutes-I’ll-never-ever-use contracts, and 2) TracFone’s habit of selecting your phone for you, and general lack of any decent or convenient design.  A Motorola Razr fits in my pocket, but that’ll cost me hundreds no matter which way you swing it.

Also: the makers of women’s jeans, for the assumption that all women carry purses and thus, pockets are optional.  I do not carry a purse, you fuckers.  I keep my wallet in my back pocket, which requires that I have a back pocket, and for any company who’s ever made aone of those “decorative” abominations that looks like a pocket but doesn’t have the pocket part?  Go and get intimate with the nearest porcupine, thorny rosebush, telephone pole or fire hydrant.  Please.

On that subject, O makers of denim lower-anatomy clothing?  If I want my jeans ripped up and frayed, I will do it myself.  I am on the second pair of jeans that was purchased pre-shredded, because everything in the goddamn store was pre-shredded.  I do not want holes in my jeans, especially not in the pockets.

Also, reinforce the ass.  Please.  I have lost no fewer than three of my favorite pairs of pants to a nice big rip across one butt cheek when I sit down.  They rip too high for me to even cut them into shorts.  And I loved the last pair enough that I am tempted to wear them anyway.  C’mon.  Thicker denim?  Or something?  Please?

Comment #13: Kyra  on  08/10  at  01:04 PM

Bell Sympatico—Worst. Internet service provider. Ever. They go down all the time and then when you call tech support, they admit that they have no idea what went wrong. And they bill you for the time that you had no service, even if it turns out that it was a problem on their end and not yours.

Lush shampoo and conditioner—Their soaps, as someone mentioned in the other thread, are fantastic. Their shampoos and conditioners turned my hair into a snarlball. I don’t understand how their soaps can be so good and their hair products so awful.

Starbucks—Politics aside, their coffee also tastes like burnt poo.

Comment #14: sabotabby  on  08/10  at  01:15 PM

I’m gonna go with a couple of products that at one time, I thought were pretty good but over the years came to truly suck.

Jockey briefs used to fit well and last for more than a month.  Now they don’t even fit well anymore.

And Cottonelle TP used to be pretty good until they changed their “formula”

Otherwise, I might purchase a product one time but refuse to keep giving my money to a product I dislike

Comment #15: dakine01  on  08/10  at  01:57 PM

Oooh, you know what I hate most?  “Envirnmentally Friendly” products that don’t, actually, you know, work.  For instance Seventh Generation laundry detergent.  I think it actually made my clothes smell worse.  My patience for the crystal deodorant is wearing thin—it was fine during the spring, and OK for my desk job.  But then July and August rolled around and I started exercising more, and ugh.  Yesterday I bought a Kiss My Face deodorant, and if this doesn’t work I think I’m going to have to go back to my old trusty Tom’s. 

Buying stuff and then having to throw it away because it didn’t work is probably worse for the environment than just continuing to buy products with parabens and harsh detergents and artificial scents.

Comment #16: The Opoponax  on  08/10  at  02:11 PM

Starbucks coffee
United Health care
Mac lipsticks—used to be great in the ‘90s, then changed their formulation and went straight to makeup hell

Comment #17: res ipsa loquitur  on  08/10  at  02:44 PM

The Windows office set 2007. They redesigns the bloody thing, and now instead of drop down menues where you’ve finally figured out where every little thing is, there are now “ribbons” and all things have been entirely converted to icons. and reorganized and reclassified. and a new file type. Oh yes! no longer is .doc universally recognized (nearly) but you have to be careful not to save it automatically as .docx until, you know, the rest of the world catches up!
Bloody microsoft.

Comment #18: Kaze  on  08/10  at  02:47 PM

High Fructose Corn Syrup.

Comment #19: Auguste  on  08/10  at  02:54 PM

The Swiffer….

I know many people love this product, but I’ve never been able to get over the use-it-once-and-throw-it-away aspect.  I have a broom which makes no waste, and occasionally I have to bend over to wipe a spill off the floor.

Comment #20: Noticed  on  08/10  at  03:03 PM

Those circus peanut things - I’ve never tried them and never will (and I have a hell of a sweet tooth!).  They just look disgusting.  Same for eggnog.  Murphy’s Wood Oil Soap: I know it cleans really well, but the smell literally makes me wretch. 

Speaking of Kaboom: I will not buy anything that features that screaming freak Billy Mays in its commercials.  Why does he have to scream like that?  Does he need a hearing aid?  Was he a carnival barker?  Hate him!

SUVs: all of them.  Minivans, too.  Exxon/Mobil.

Comment #21: Kristen from MA  on  08/10  at  03:15 PM

Eggnog - gagggg.  Actually yesterday I was walking down the street when a woman came out of a shop (I think it was Porto Rico Coffee, but why they’d carry this I don’t know) and excitedly said to her husband, who was waiting outside, “Guess what we got?!” in the voice of a 9 year old.  Seriously, I thought she was going to say something really amazing, like The Most Amazing Espresso Beans Ever! or That Same Earl Grey Blend We Had On Our Honeymoon! or some blatantly positive coffee and tea related thin.

It was eggnog.  “Guess what we got?!  Eggnog!111!!!!!!11!1!”

Vomit.

Comment #22: The Opoponax  on  08/10  at  03:50 PM

And Cottonelle TP used to be pretty good until they changed their “formula”

Glad I wasn’t the only one who noticed. WTF did they do to it? It falls apart and pills up before you can even get to use it. I assume they made each roll thinner so that those “double rolls” use the less paper, but they can still claim double the amount of sheets.

Cottenelle people—you didn’t fool anyone. Thanks to the new and improved edition, we’ve switched over to Charmin.

Comment #23: Pam Spaulding  on  08/10  at  05:22 PM

TCF Bank.  It is a local chain here in the Twin Cities area of Minnesota and I have never net anyone who has banked there and not had a TERRIBLE experience.  Some people are stuck banking there because they have the loosest rules as far as credit score required for a checking account, but I don’t know why anyone who could get an account somewhere else would voluntarily stay at TCF for a single minute.  BAHHH!  HATRED!

And then the bank sponsors all this crap in the city (the U of MN is getting building the “TCF Dome”) and it get enraged all over again because that is what they are doing with the money they con and cheat away from their customers.

Comment #24: GumbyAnne  on  08/10  at  05:44 PM

Any butter not Land O’Lakes. Instant coffee of any type (it might be “hot beverage” but it damn sure isnt coffee). Starbucks coffee. Cheap aluminum foil. Cling wrap that sticks to itself while you’re trying to get it off the roll.

Oh, and pull top lids on any can…Ive lost count of how many times I’ve sliced myself in trying to remove the lids - either the ring snaps off in your hand, or the damn thing slices you coming off the top of the can.

HP printers. This one, I’ve owned a year and successfully printed off ONE page…the paper jams every single time I try to use it.

Comment #25: broce  on  08/10  at  05:53 PM

Any toilet cleaner with that awful fake cherry-almond scent.  Jesus, how I hate that stuff—it makes the whole bathroom smell like an airport loo.  Ugh.  Give me a nice, light lemony fragrance in my cleaning products, please.

Underwire bras.  The girls need support, but they don’t like being poked and prodded, thank you very much.  Big kudos to the few companies who make a soft, comfy, supportive and wireless bra for medium-sized breasts.

I fourth the Starbucks hatred (or is it fifth).  Occasionally, though, there is a good Limited Edition one in the supermarket (I took a chance on their Tanzania beans and loved the flavor, but when I went back, there was something new in its place, and it sucked.)

Lancôme mascaras.  Years ago, it was the best stuff on the market, but they kept changing the names and formulations, and after wasting a small fortune on three different sorts, all of which clumped, I switched to the Neutrogena one with olive oil—much cheaper, and no clumping ever.

Chanel lipstick.  It tastes like fake-rose soap and it’s horribly overpriced.

L’Oreal shampoos and conditioners, all of which have an overpowering cheap perfume, fake and fruity and utterly off-putting (I seem to hate smells the most!)  The Vive conditioners are good for long, thick hair but oh, that perfume is intolerable, and if you have a lot of hair, you’re going to walk around with a big tumbleweed of cheap perfume on your head until your next shampoo (with something else).

Sweet-n-Low.  That crap—saccharine—is made from petrochemicals, and it’s ridiculously bad for you.  How the FDA caved on that one, I’ll never know (cough cough).

Diesel jeans.  So overpriced, and so coveted by teenaged boys, of which I have two.  Sigh.

I could go on forever.

Comment #26: litbrit  on  08/10  at  06:28 PM

Someone mentioned that they like Flo from the Progressive commercials. Strange! I recently realized that I have a weird little crush on her. There is just something about her that is just too adorable.

Anyway, I have a love/hate relationship with Naked juice. Most of the time, it’s delicious and I want to make everyone I know drink it. And then there are times when I pop it open, take a swig and get a big mouthful of disgusting powdery residue. I have no idea what the deal is, but no amount of shaking or swearing at it will make it drinkable. I mean, I’m paying three bucks for a bottle of juice! I demand some consistency!

Comment #27: Metal Guru  on  08/10  at  06:28 PM

This may surprise some people but I really hate microwave “ovens”. They are the opposite of cooking: you take a piece of perfectly good food and ruin it. Bread and baked goods turn into soggy mush.  Stale coffee turns into hot stale coffee. Vegetables turn into tongue-burning nuggets of raw blandness. Do yourself a favor, make a baked potato the old fashioned way: in the oven. Sure it takes an hour but the creamy lusciousness and crunchy skin will be worth it. You’ll never go back.

Comment #28: melville  on  08/10  at  06:49 PM

I am with you on the Naked juice, Metal Guru.  Sometimes SOOO good but sometimes a big overpriced disappointment.

Comment #29: GumbyAnne  on  08/10  at  06:55 PM

In deference to their usefulness in emergency situations and the occasional other conveniences they provide, I will amend that to read, 1) cell phone companies and their ridiculous, expensive, zillion-minutes-I’ll-never-ever-use contracts, and 2) TracFone’s habit of selecting your phone for you, and general lack of any decent or convenient design.  A Motorola Razr fits in my pocket, but that’ll cost me hundreds no matter which way you swing it.

TracFone does suck, though I’m going to buy the cheapo $9.99 phone and the $9.99 phone card and use it during my trip to Illinois since my AT&T;prepaid phone will only work in California and Nevada.

The nice thing about AT&T;prepaid (and, I suspect, Verizon, T-Mobile, and other big companies) is that I can buy an unlocked phone from eBay and put my SIM card into it, so I’m not stuck with the crappy one I first got.  I’ve done that two or three times and, yes, you should be able to get a used Razr on eBay.  Right now, I’m using a refurbished phone I bought directly from AT&T;for $30.  Just took the SIM card out of my previous phone, popped it into the new one, and I was good to go.

Comment #30: Mnemosyne  on  08/10  at  07:06 PM

I join the Swiffer hate. And the paper towel hate. And many other things that are use-once-and-throw-it-away. What a waste. Also the Mr Clean Magic Erasers. They work, but if I wanted to rub formaldehyde all over my house, I’d just pour a glass of it and drink it. Gets the poisoning over with faster.

I loathe low rider jeans. Please, please bring high waist pants (jeans!) back.

Plastic zippers. They break. Metal only, please.

Comment #31: wondering  on  08/10  at  07:18 PM

I loathe low rider jeans. Please, please bring high waist pants (jeans!) back.

Do, and I will personally injure you.  Some of us only have a couple of inches between the top of our hip bone and the bottom of our ribcage, so high-waist pants end up wrapping around our ribs.  Not a pretty look.

Low-waist pants are a gift from the gods.

Comment #32: Mnemosyne  on  08/10  at  07:27 PM

Verizon DSL sucks, and they’ve gone to extraordinary lengths to make it impossible to get tech support.  There are days when my internet connection drops 15-20 times.  The only tech support available is a website full of useless suggestions.  They do offer actual tech support, but that’s an extra $14/month, which is a little steep in order to ensure they actually deliver the product I’m already paying for.

Comment #33: togolosh  on  08/10  at  08:00 PM

Starbucks. Not only does the coffee taste burnt (and I’m so glad so many other people hate it, too, sometimes I feel isolated in my loathing of it), but when I have gone ahead and tried to buy some oversweetened thing to have it at least be edible, I’ve had a whole series of barristas fuck up the difference between hot, iced and blended. Since I only buy it to get an caffeine treatment for an asthma attack, I don’t have time to complain and get it fixed.
OTOH, their bottled coffee and coffee pops are nice-ish.

Flax seed oil. Bought some, because I’d read about how good it was supposed to be for joint pain. Talked to our rhuematologist and was told not to use it—the pain ebbs, then comes back worse, usually.

btw, I have Kaiser and though it costs a lot, it’s good. I got some medicines changed, but they were changes for the better. They actually listen to my assessments of myself. And I saw a doctor Friday around noon for an elbow injury, got a $10 set of X-Rays done, and got a call in the afternoon telling me I have an appointment with a specialist Monday morning. There’s a broken bone I’d been ignoring for 3 months, but the weren’t wasting any time getting me treated once they knew.

Comment #34: Samantha Vimes  on  08/10  at  09:37 PM

Every product out there that professes to get rid of lime deposits on bathtubs.  I have an olive green (yes, really) tub in the upstairs bathroom and I have tried every product in the known universe, plus some non-chemical things, to get rid of them:  Bam.  Kaboom.  Zud.  CLR.  Lime-Away.  Vinegar-soaked towels.  Steam.

More recently I’ve seen a service that I’m trying to figure out if it’s utter crap or not:  Mr. Sandless.  This is allegedly a non-sanding floor refinishing service that provided your floor doesn’t have major scratches or staining, refinishes your hardwood floors without days of sanding and toxic fumes—neither of which is feasible with two indoor cats.

Comment #35: Jill  on  08/10  at  10:36 PM

Let me second the jeans with wimpy butts. That’s why I wear Levis—I have yet to wear a pair out. Plus they’re the only ones that don’t make my legs look like toothpicks.

Comment #36: Jeffrey  on  08/10  at  11:09 PM

Bluenotes jeans - I love/hate these, as they come with waist - AND INSEAM WOOO - measurements, but I have no hips/butt at all and I still have to get a waist size 2 inches too big to get them on. Also their zippers suck.

Chocolate milk - it goes bad about 2 weeks before the due date and even before that there’s barfular skin on it.

Telemarketers - Hey, assholes, my having a deep ugly voice doesn’t mean I’m a boy. Also, you can take your APR financing and shove it.

Limewire - Da dum dum, looking for pirated music, oh hey, horse porn.

Comment #37: limes  on  08/11  at  02:20 AM

I wouldn’t hate lowrise jeans so much if hi-rise jeans were still available.  It might not be so bad if someone actually made jeans that fit me.  Hi-rise jeans are just more forgiving, since a slightly baggy waist can be reined in w/ a belt.  Lowrise jeans lead to an R-rated kangaroo-pouchy gap in front.  The general public does not need to know me that well.

Comment #38: mustelid  on  08/11  at  07:10 AM

Mustelid, high rise jeans are on the way back.  I’ve been seeing them here in New York for about a year now, and on my last jeans-shopping trip a few months ago I scored a pair which actually don’t look that bad on me even though I’m usually a low-rise girl (thanks again, Uniqlo, which I mentioned in the other thread!).  I’ve also noticed the rises on the jeans at Gap, Old Navy, and the like creeping back up recently, so unless you need a really, really high rise you should maybe check there?

Comment #39: The Opoponax  on  08/11  at  01:47 PM

There’s a toilet bowl cleaner (SaniFlush?) that smells like mint. And a minty-fresh toilet bowl is just all kindsa wrong.

American Plus Size clothing stores that aren’t in Canada. Seriously, we have two plus size chains up here. And most of their stuff has no room for secondary sex characteristics. Or style. It’s like want to make sure fat girls are dressed badly, as some sort of punishment for our being fat.

Mainstream lingerie stores/departments that carry nothing in my size. (Yeh, I’m talking to you, La Senza. Even when I was skinny, and a 38D, when i went in and asked for something in my size the salesgirl looked all confused said ‘38D?...we…keep those in the back…’)

Comment #40: JPlum  on  08/11  at  04:22 PM

Oh, and for the ladies missing their old Gap jeans-I think maybe Gap and Old Navy must have switched their stylings. Used to be my no-hips no-ass self could wear Gap, but Old Navy seemed to want me to be all bootlicious.  When Old Navy redesigned into Diva, Sweetheart etc. jeans, I suddenly found ones that fit!

Comment #41: JPlum  on  08/11  at  04:25 PM

Mighty putty is just a piece of green clay.  There is nothing mighty about it.

Comment #42: mookie  on  08/11  at  04:57 PM

Thanks, Opoponax, I’d actually given up looking a few year ago.  There was a Very Bad Experience where a previously safe brand had been redesigned in such a way that made me look physically deformed.  In addition to the pouchy thing.

Comment #43: mustelid  on  08/11  at  05:24 PM

Clothing from BCBG Max Azria.  If I buy a $50+ shirt, I want it to last more than two wearings before falling apart.

Comment #44: Genevieve  on  08/12  at  05:10 PM
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