Wow!  Who knew Franklin Raines is an assclown troll who lacks basic reading comprehension? 

Oh wait, we all did.

Limbaugh is a disgrace.  In that respect his de facto leadership of the current “Republican” Party (which is primarily an old Southern Conservative Democratic Party with a change in branding) is singularly appropriate.

Reagan and his posse used to say that Tip O’Neil was the embodiment of everything wrong with the government: Fat, bloated, and out of control.  Oh how the worm has turned.

Guess what, Rethugs, karma is a bitch…

I don’t think Rush and company understand the concept of trying to accomplish anything.  They’ve built their whole lives around blocking and dismantling the opposition that the idea of actually trying to do something seems totally impossible. 

Also Franklin, didn’t you see that study of the wage gap between college educated blacks and college educated whites?  Obviously its not just a problem of not doing what one is supposed to do.

In my business, I have many black clients. They all have one thing in common and that is they did what they were supposed to do and that is go to school, stay off drugs and they were all able to do so. Now, they are affluent and can afford my services.

Come on, how affluent do they have to be to respond in the affirmative when you ask if they want fries with their meal?

Gracchus FTW.

So the lesson is not so much what whites are doing to blacks, but what the black culture is doing to blacks.

yeah, every time I hear about some black guy being locked up in jail for thirty years for a crime he didn’t commit despite the fact that there was no credible evidence whatsoever, or a little black girl getting the shit beaten out of her by cops who accused her of being a prostitute because they were on a call about a *white* prostitute, or a black man facing the death penalty for shooting a cop because the cop broke into his home in the middle of the night and he thought he was protecting his baby daughter from a home intrusion, I say to myself, “Wow, isn’t it amazing how all these black cops and black governors and black attorney generals are picking on these black people?”

And then I wake up and remember that no, actually, in pretty much every single case of these miscarriages of justice—which are performed *far* more against blacks than whites in terms of their representation in the population—it was white cops, white judges, white governors, white attorney generals. Not that black cops can’t be racist against other black people—black cops have shot black men for “attending a costume party with a fake gun while black”—but the vast majority of police abuses and miscarriages of justice come from white people against black people.

“All who were interested were able to do so” is not true. All you can say from your position is, “All who can afford my services were interested in getting ahead in life,” which is completely not the same thing. You have no idea how many black guys were going to school and staying off drugs until they got thrown in jail for a crime they didn’t commit. Or how many black women were going to school and staying off drugs until they got raped, couldn’t get justice, couldn’t get the money for an abortion until it was too late, and couldn’t get anyone to see them as “a promising bright student who was temporarily blocked by a tragedy” because they were being seen by everyone as just another black ho on welfare.

Every person in the world who gets ahead in life is lucky. Most are also very skilled (with the exception of some who are *extremely* lucky). But there are many people who are very skilled or talented who are not lucky, and they don’t get ahead. And there are so many more obstacles facing black people than white people, a black person needs more luck and more skill to get to the same place a white person can get to with less luck and less skill. So denigrating all the people who had the drive and the talent to make it, but couldn’t overcome all the roadblocks in their way because they just weren’t lucky enough, by implying that anyone who doesn’t succeed wasn’t interested in doing so is insulting.

Any middle class healthy and normally abled white straight guy who doesn’t succeed probably wasn’t interested in doing so, because the culture smooths the path for that specific type of person (although there may have been unfortunate circumstances in his life, such as abusive parents, mental illness in a family member, etc, so even then you can’t rule out the role of luck.) But you can’t say that about *anyone* else. Respect the ones who do get ahead, because they worked hard for it, but don’t disrespect the ones who didn’t. You have no idea what they could have accomplished if society had made a smooth path for them the way it does for the generic white guys.

“In my business, I have many black clients. “

I can’t wait to hear what kind of a job Frankie boy dreams about having in which he has “clients.”

In my business, I have many black clients.

Are some of them your best friends?

What did you expect?

“Welcome, sonny”?

“Make yourself at home”?

“Marry my daughter”?

You’ve got to remember that these are just simple Republicans. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know…

... morons.

I also find it interesting that Frankie trolls under the name of the former (black) head of Fannie Mae, which the right is determined to blame for the subprime crisis. I wonder if his black “clients” know thin, and what they’d think about it if they did…

There are many factors that can cause a difference. I believe it is culture, but that’s just me.  There could be many reasons why one culture will not take advantage of the opportunities around them.

I see you have as much trouble seeing the distinction between “culture” and “race” as you do seeing the difference between “responsibility” and “fault.”

Moron indeed.

What’s going to be interesting is what happens 5-10 years from now, when so many of limbaugh’s followers are fervently trying to dissassociate themselves from there past bigotry, and find the internet coming back to bite them.

All the government can do is make sure there is equal opportunity. I am not the least bit interested in equal outcomes.

Then STFU.

Underlying this is miscenigation and mixed-“race” children.  We don’t talk about that kind of racism much any more as the PC Police taught them to hide their words and we’ve been reduced to inference and code words and phrases like: “I’m not racist, I just want to support the white race” in this kind of vein:

These propositions have nothing to do with any notions of race-hatred of the other, or of race-worship of one’s own. White people are just as sinful and imperfect as any other people. Unlike ideologies such as Afrocentrism and Nazism, which are based on the deification of one’s own people and the demonization of others, this new politics is based on a Christian recognition of our human limitations, namely that we do not possess the godlike power to create a perfect world where everyone is equal, and where differences don’t matter….

[W]hen whites begin to assert their own civilizational and racial identity and their desire to preserve it, not in a hateful way but in a calm, intelligent and firm way, then nonwhites will begin to see whites, not as the “oppressors” of left-liberal demonology, but as human beings who have the same basic interests and concerns for their people and culture that the minorities have for theirs.

http://www.amren.com/ar/1994/08/index.html

Koreans moving into South Central L.A. and making a go of package stores when others couldn’t is a really good example.

BTW, they’re not called “package stores” in L.A. So I’m guessing you’re either in rural New England (maybe even “Tax-achusetts”) or the southern GA/AL region. For some odd reason I’m guessing the latter ...

So I’m guessing you’re either in rural New England (maybe even “Tax-achusetts”) or the southern GA/AL region. For some odd reason I’m guessing the latter ...

Why Gracchus, what would ever give you that idea!? /snark

Thanks for the quote, Sarcastro. Who knew Mel Brooks et al were just prophesying about our times?

I’m not arguing for equal outcomes, more equal outcomes should follow from more equal opportunities.

If the outcome isn’t equal between people of different races with the same educational background you can assume that the opportunities aren’t so equal after all. 

Unless of course you think black people don’t deserve to be paid the same as white people doing the same job.

And how ironic that Frankie would love to talk about liqueur stores being successful in poor Black neighborhoods.  All those liqueur stores are is legalized drug distribution, and something that would never be allowed in “respectable” (white) areas.  Of course, he’d never believe that what’s going on is simple exploitation.  Oh no, it’s a triumph of Capitalism!

Dude, if you’re so ignorant about American History, perhaps you could leave us (for several years, please!) and study up to correct your obvious deficiency…

eeew, that frankie rains thing is a troll.  Wow, I guess I have to keep up some kind of guide.

Anyway.  Yes, limbaugh is now and always has been a mefirster.  Whether it’s for white folks, rich folks, republican folks, drug addicts, he’s for it as long as it’s part of his world, everyone and everything else, not so much.

I don’t need a klan robe on limbaugh to know he’s a racist anymore than I need anymore clues that dick cheney is a human crapsack.  The only good thing about either one is that they’re poster children for a failed ideology and a complete lack of ethics.  I hope limbaugh and cheney both keep acting up in public.  It shames the “moderates” into thinking that maybe limbaugh isn’t funny ha-ha and maybe cheney isn’t just “protecting us”.

So what I am saying is that while this is repulsive, it’s not surprising and it is helping to sort the proverbial wheat from the chaff.

I’m a little confused about why this blog allows blatantly racist bullshit to get tossed around in comments anyway.

So let’s get this straight, HNIC Barack Obama, despite all of his stimulus and job growth activities and the fact that the stock market has stabilized, is really intent on transforming America into a one big ghetto filled with chicken joints, liquor stores and welfare check cashing storefronts.

Wait, wait, wait.  This needs some work.

So let’s get this straight, HNIC Barack Obama, despite all of his stimulus and job growth activities and the fact that the stock market has stabilized, is really intent on transforming America into a one big <strike>ghetto</strike> free market real estate venue filled with <strike>chicken joints , liquor stores</strike> successful local small businesses and <strike>welfare check cashing storefronts</strike> bedrock financial institutions.

ZOMG!  Barack Obama is a Republican!
Seriously, since when did the GOP ever have a problem with cheap real estate, fast food, sleazy money schemes, and lots of hard liquor?  I was told explicitly that Obama was an elitist who opposed all of those things.  Now you’re saying he’s some wrong-side-of-the-tracks hood trying to turn backwater Kansas into down town Detroit?  Say what?

Julian -

While I’m offended by some of the comments as well, censoring them isn’t the answer.  I say let the Franklins and Danas post their hateful crap so there can be absolutely no mistaking just what and who we are dealing with. Far too many odious people are able to hide their ugliness under a veneer of public civility while privately holding and expressing the most vile and repugnant views. At least Franklin and Dana aren’t afraid to publicize their ignorance and bigotry, which facilitates their repudiation by the community. More conservatives should be so forthcoming - perhaps then they’d be more quickly ushered out of the public discourse.

I’m a little confused about why this blog allows blatantly racist bullshit to get tossed around in comments anyway.

You’d have to ask the owners, but I suspect they don’t pre-screen it in general because it’s free speech—the most blatant racists and misogynists and homobigots are usually banned pretty quickly, because they’re not really that funny.

They also keep a couple of particularly stupid and ignorant pet trolls like “Franklin Raines” around as clowns for our amusement (at least until, as inevitably happens, they get boring or start making personal threats). I’ll admit there’s a distasteful sideshow/18th-century Bedlam aspect to the practise, but I think the site owners are aiming for a virtual version of “Speakers’ Corner” in Hyde Park.

In my business, I have many black clients.

Franklin Raines has a business....

HAHAHAHAHAHAH HAH HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA…. hahaha

Sorry, that was my first good laugh of the day.

I’m a little confused about why this blog allows blatantly racist bullshit to get tossed around in comments anyway.

This blog is generally pretty conservative about banning people.  You either have to be a pointless nuisance for weeks on end, or you have to say something truly outrageous.  Frankie the illiterate, cowardly liar seems to have chosen the former path.

transforming America into a one big ghetto filled with chicken joints, liquor stores and welfare check cashing storefronts

See?  That’s projection.  The “I got mine; fuck all y’all” Republicans want the US to be a big ghetto with their McMansions safely gated away.  The plebes in the ghettos should also grovel and be grateful.  That’s what America’s all about!

Acting like turning America into a ghetto is a bad idea ignores the results of W’s policies.  If nothing else, W proved definitively trickle down does not work, and that cutting taxes on the rich means that the rich get richer.

We need a large middle class.  Our democratic republic functions best when it has a large middle class.  This 1920s sized gap is a recipe for disaster.

It’s been pointed out, but what we have now is not even close to equality of opportunity.  People like our bridge-dwellers see that some progress has been made, in some areas, feel threatened that they’ll have to actually compete with a much larger population, and want desperately to stop any further progress.  It’s the same thing as saying that just throwing money at public education can’t fix it, never mind that it has been rather effectively proven that spending more money on education does produce better outcomes.  Else there wouldn’t be suburbs.

Which is why there’s such a strong push against funding schools equally across Texas.  The anti-equality people have gained so much control over the narrative that the whole concept is called ‘Robin Hood.’  Because, obviously, their money is being stolen to pay to educate those people’s children, who don’t deserve it.  If they did, they’d have been born to wealthier families in better-funded school districts.  This, somehow, is considered fair and equitable.

Shorter me: Do fuck off, Franklin.

Dear Mr. President:

I know you’re horribly busy and all, but my neighborhood doesn’t have a good chicken shack or rib place so if you could speed up that part of your program a bit, I would be eternally grateful.

I’m sure there will be lots of demand because all of Frankie’s “clients” are coming around to have their shoes shined.

We love ya Big O (or most of us do, anyway).
Bubba

Limbaugh wants America to fail under Obama to suit Limbaugh’s political ends, so he thinks Obama wants America to fail to suit Obama’s political ends.

This has been another edition of Wingnut Projection on Parade.

In my business, I have many black clients….Now, they are affluent and can afford my services.

Frankie, what bidness do you have? Sounds mighty highfalutin’

So the lesson is not so much what whites are doing to blacks, but what the black culture is doing to blacks. It prevents them from wanting to move forward. If they go to school and try to learn, others say they are “acting white”.

Frankie, what you think of or identify as “Black Culture” really isn’t.

Take a seat and inhale.

Now exhale slowly.

Here’s what I notice about certain melanin challenged persons: They see the stylings and gyrations of lower-class Blacks as an accurate representation of “Black culture”. But none will say Trailer Park Pam and her beau, Bobby Lee, are an accurate representation of “White Culture”.

It’s really a shame.

You bet your achromatic ass it is. You have all these affluent Black clients and probably know very few Black people in any other context, yet you still think “Black Culture” = this guy

So we’re keeping the troll around for repeat traffic generation?

Listen,

Folks here really need to stop tossing the word “troll” around like it’s salad dressing.

It’s a demomstration of weakmindedness.

If you don’t agree with what someone is saying, argue them down. Present your case FFS.

Or - STFU.

So we’re keeping the troll around for repeat traffic generation?

Yes.  SATSQ
See Also:  Duh, No shit, Quit Asking Me Silly Questions And Get Back in the Kitchen

Folks here really need to stop tossing the word “troll” around like it’s salad dressing. It’s a demomstration of weakmindedness.

Bullshit.

Present your case FFS.

The point of being a troll is not to allow you to present your case. It’s to distract from it and mess up the thread.

In fact, I would venture to argue that you, Uhura, are probably particularly vulnerable to being troll because you’re naively willing to earnestly “present your case” about whatever the troll decides to needle you about, and you’ll end up getting led around by the nose.

You bet your achromatic ass it is.

I may have to take away Gracchus’s ftw and give it to Uhura for this.

Not all conservative commmenters here are people I would call trolls. Dana, for example, isn’t malicious. He’s merely earnest and kind of dumb, impervious to information, but loves to repeat the right-wing talking points he’s been fed as evidence of his political sophistication. Mostly too dumb/busy/incurious to adjust his talking points in the wake of evidence we repeatedly feed him in our efforts to snap him out of his delusions, yes. But not a troll.

Franklin is just trying to piss you off Uhura by spamming the comment threads with lies in the hopes you’ll attempt to “present your case” while he runs around you in circles as you try to keep up with him.

Who knew Mel Brooks et al were just prophesying about our times?

By its very nature, mocking conservatives is timeless.

The point of being a troll is not to allow you to present your case. It’s to distract from it and mess up the thread.

He isn’t even 1/4 as “distracting” as the people who interject to point out that other people are trolls or ask why we are allowing trolls here…troll troll troll…blah blah blah.

In fact, I would venture to argue that you, Uhura, are probably particularly vulnerable to being troll because you’re naively willing to earnestly “present your case” about whatever the troll decides to needle you about, and you’ll end up getting led around by the nose.

Wrong. Since I am female, I can handle multiple conversational angles simultaneously. Also - I am a parent & I have developed the uncanny ability to ignore certain things. You and all the other folks who are easily derailed & distracted should try to as well.

My point still stands, so sit your achromatic ass down.

I may have to take away Gracchus’s ftw and give it to Uhura for this.

Seraph, what is FTW?

For The Win…

Franklin is just trying to piss you off Uhura by spamming the comment threads with lies in the hopes you’ll attempt to “present your case” while he runs around you in circles as you try to keep up with him.

Tyro, Franklin is not pissing me off or keepig me going in circles. I responded to him 2 or 3 times with very little effort on my part.

You and everyone else are dedicating lots of energy to someone you say is a troll.

Something for you & everyone else to ponder: If he is LYING, why does it affect you so much?

I really don’t understand why some people are so invested in the idea that success cannot come from a combination of luck and personal hard work.

One can ruin anything by making bad decisions.  One cannot fix anything by making good ones—and people seem to think that good decisions magically happen, instead of coming when you give folks opportunities to reflect with relatively little stress.

That should read, “one cannot fix everything...”

If he is LYING, why does it affect you so much?

Because they’re the kind of lies that have shaped our society for the past few hundred years?

Alternately: it’s the internet?

How “lucky” do you think Obama would have been if he hadn’t prepared himself to be lucky?

The truth is - an individual’s success in life is determined by many things: Part of it is the self  and part of it is uncontrollable external factors such as luck.

Because they’re the kind of lies that have shaped our society for the past few hundred years?

OK Jessie. I see your point, but as one who is probably more affected by those types of lies than you - I still say: Make your case and stop throwing the troll bomb around. If it’s clear the person really has no intention to discuss thinsg, ignore them rather than clutter the thread with troll turds.

I see your point, but as one who is probably more affected by those types of lies than you - I still say: Make your case and stop throwing the troll bomb around. If it’s clear the person really has no intention to discuss thinsg, ignore them rather than clutter the thread with troll turds.

I really have no idea how you’re more affected by lies about black people than a black person, but I await your case.

“Stop calling someone who’s doing something what they are and do it differently” isn’t particularly helpful.

If it’s clear the person really has no intention to discuss thinsg

We seem to be more adept at realizing when that’s happening than you are.

Tyro - YOU are accomplishing what the so-called troll wanted with your current behvior are you not?

You and others are littering the thread with off-topic talk.

as one who is probably more affected by those types of lies than you

LOL I knew it. I knew it.

I really have no idea how you’re more affected by lies about black people than a black person, but I await your case.

I’m Black AND FEMALE; therefore, I am even less of a person than you are.

“Stop calling someone who’s doing something what they are and do it differently” isn’t particularly helpful.

Especially when folks have been talking amongst themselves for so long, they are unable to hear any dissenting voices.

I will not budge on this point: You guys are doing better @ thread derailment than the alleged troll. LOL!

I think what Uhura is saying is to ignore her.  Although I’m not sure if that then means that she gets to claim a tertiary form of victim supremacy, too.

tertiary form of victim supremacy

That’s my favorite King Crimson song.

” The truth is, there is no one more influential in our society than the individual.”

...well, certain individuals, to be sure.  CEOs, politicians, inheritors of great wealth, etc.

The rest of us can be “individual” all we want and we’ll still be proles no matter what…

Uh-oh, Pandagonians, everybody start discussing things correctly, the thread police are here!

The truth is, there is no one more influential in our society than the individual.

Yes, yes, we are all etc. etc.

“How “lucky” do you think Obama would have been if he hadn’t prepared himself to be lucky?”

Anyone else get the feeling Franklin sees all black people as either Barack Obama or a Welfare Queen?  The measure of progress isn’t whether exceptional black people can succeed as well as exceptional white people but whether mediocre black people can succeed as well as mediocre white people. 

The research suggests we aren’t there yet. 

Also Punditus Maximus’s point dovetails nicely with the one I’ve been trying to make when you see that our luck is at least partially defined by structures of privilege, race based and otherwise.

Jenny - every post we write here has a warranted comment life of 150 on-topic comments.  There should be no deviation UNTIL THAT POINT IN TIME.

OH, if threads are derailed and trolls are fed, what’s the point of anything?  Why have an internet at all?

(Rends his garments and, with much gnashing of teeth, throws himself in front of a bus.)

::sobs:: Alas, poor yankee.  I knew zie, Horatio.

Let’s just all have a big group hug and agree “Franklin Raines” is the most boring troll ever. Can we at least agree on that?

“Not all conservative commmenters here are people I would call trolls. Dana, for example, isn’t malicious. “

Dana’s actually a pretty cool guy. I’ve “known” him in cyber-space for a number of years, and visit his site frequently. While definitely a traditionalist conservative, all commenters are welcome, no one is banned, and comments are rarely edited, let alone deleted. Interestingly, he gets very few “trolls”, although one person (who shall remain namely) comes close at times, with constant “updates” from the 9/11 Twoofer movement.

Also, I’m mystified that he’s considered “anti-woman”. While I’m not going to give away personal details he might not want publicly revealed, on his Site he’s given regular updates of his kids’ progress, including one who just finished Army Basic Training. He couldn’t be prouder of his girl’s success, and so is everyone else there.

Dana’s actually a pretty cool guy.

I’m not disputing he may well be the sort of person you’d want to have a beer with.

He couldn’t be prouder of his girl’s success

That reminds me of a Chris Rock routine—“You’re supposed to you dumb mo-fo. What are you talking’ about? What are you braggin’ about? What kind of ignorant sh-t is that? ... What do you want a cookie?” You’re supposed to be proud of your children’s success.

I really hate to ask, but it is possible to ban Frankie? I mean, he’s clearly violated the stick rule multiple times and the threads on this page are so bogged with his stupid that I don’t even feel like reading anymore. I mean, it’s fun to argue against a troll or two and Dana (troll or not) is all well and good to have around, but Frankie is clearly not interested in anything except nonsense spam.

Maybe it’s just me, but spammy Pandagon doesn’t seem as fun or intellectually fulfilling. But I could just be having a bad day.

Oh, and furthermore, I make a motion that all possible screen-names containing the word “Libertarian” in them (or variants thereof) be pre-emptively disabled / banned because I’ve yet to see a True Libertarian use the name - they are just nasty little Republicans. I mean, at least the Real Life Libertarians I know are able to, like, reason a bit.

Maybe I need some ice cream…

Folks here really need to stop tossing the word “troll” around like it’s salad dressing.

Your concern is noted, Uhura.

While I’m offended by some of the comments as well, censoring them isn’t the answer.

Sounds like wishful thinking to me, jjcomet. Do you have any empirical evidence whatsoever for this assertion?

(brushes himself off)

I’m okay!  Turns out the bus was the Straight Talk Express.  Instead of hitting me it went straight into the ditch.

While I’m offended by some of the comments as well, censoring them isn’t the answer.

Why?

Because censorship is BAD? Jesus Popsicle Fuck, Pandagon is supposed to be a safe place. And all the “ha, ha, Obama hates fags” gloating and the “women who get abortions to save their lives are Demon Women Slut Murderers” crap is just getting old. It’s getting to where a lot of gays and women wouldn’t feel comfortable here. I know that I’m sick of it.

Franklin isn’t here to be educated. He’s not even trying to argue. He doesn’t respond to points. He just spews vitriol. Maybe the owners will keep him around because responding to him results in higher page click counts. But I don’t think the Pandagonians are like that. I’m optimistic this way.

Seriously, please ban Frankie. If I wanted to listen to him, I’d listen to Rush Limbaugh on the radio.

Given Franklin’s tag choice, I would be unsurprised to discover that Uhura and Franklin are the same.

A pair of sock puppets with different colours? Must have dressed in the dark…

Dana’s actually a pretty cool guy. I’ve “known” him in cyber-space for a number of years, and visit his site frequently. While definitely a traditionalist conservative, all commenters are welcome, no one is banned, and comments are rarely edited, let alone deleted. Interestingly, he gets very few “trolls”, although one person (who shall remain namely) comes close at times, with constant “updates” from the 9/11 Twoofer movement.

Also, I’m mystified that he’s considered “anti-woman”. While I’m not going to give away personal details he might not want publicly revealed, on his Site he’s given regular updates of his kids’ progress, including one who just finished Army Basic Training. He couldn’t be prouder of his girl’s success, and so is everyone else there.

You are mistaking decorum for decency.  And having some affection for your own daughter doesn’t mean you can’t be a misogynist.

You’re not the only one who feels that way, Essie.

Given Franklin’s tag choice, I would be unsurprised to discover that Uhura and Franklin are the same.

WTF?

I can agree with this:

The individual’s past and present actions make the difference when random opportunity presents itself.

Auguste,

what did you mean here?

LOL I knew it. I knew it.

Anyone else get the feeling Franklin sees all black people as either Barack Obama or a Welfare Queen?

Yep. I think I pointed this out earlier in the discussion.

The measure of progress isn’t whether exceptional black people can succeed as well as exceptional white people but whether mediocre black people can succeed as well as mediocre white people.

Exactly!

They all have one thing in common and that is they did what they were supposed to do and that is go to school, stay off drugs and they were all able to do so

Rush Limbaugh didnt stay off drugs, Sean Hannity dropped out of high school
now they are both rich

It’s funny you said that…

I mean, growing up I always knew I had to be better than just to be considered equal.

It’s a heavy burden to carry - believe me.

BTW, they’re not called “package stores” in L.A.

Really?
I didnt know that was a regional thing
What are they called in the rest of the country?

“You are mistaking decorum for decency. “

No, I’m just saying I “know” him pretty well, and he’s definitely a decent person. I don’t agree with him on everything (indeed, we crossed swords pretty strongly over the whole Michael Phelps and the bong thing) but he’s always been polite and fair minded.

No, Uhura, I thought you were making what is, after all, a common mistake by others in thinking Jesse was a white guy.  You made one other comment on an earlier thread that made me think the same thing, but I don’t actually remember what it is right now.

The last sentence being to explain why I said “I knew it” - I had a preconception which it appeared I was having confirmed.

What are they called in the rest of the country?

liquor stores.

Honestly - I did think Jesse was white.

And Jesse - if you’re an Administrator, please do an IP address check & confirm that I am not Frank. All jokes aside - I really don’t appreciate the assertion.

” And having some affection for your own daughter doesn’t mean you can’t be a misogynist.”

Well, my point was that he’s encouraged her to become successful in a tough, very competitive, and traditionally male dominated field. And apparently she’s succeeding marvelously. Doesn’t sound very “sexist” to me.

Actions speak a lot louder than words. If your kids turn out great, that’s a pretty strong indication you raised them with good values.

What are they called in the rest of the country?

“Liquor stores.” I knew someone who, like me, grew up in NJ and went to Boston for school and then stayed their for work. It’s not like she married a native bostonian or anything, she was an urban young professional just like the rest of us, and then I caught her referring to such places as “packies.” I can barely describe how poseur-y I found this affectation she had adopted.

Tyro,

If that shit isn’t thread derailment, I don’t know what is.

((eyerolll))

Actions speak a lot louder than words. If your kids turn out great, that’s a pretty strong indication you raised them with good values.

Part of it is luck!

In eighteen alcoholic beverage control states, the specialty liquor stores are run exclusively by the state government.

From the Wiki on Liquor Store.

God, this kind of socialist social engineering has to stop!

And in Texas, they have drive-thru liquor stores in some jurisdictions.

So, everyone in this thread who is talking about fucking PackageLicker stores is not a troll?!

I’m Black AND FEMALE; therefore, I am even less of a person than you are.

Pam’s black and female and lesbian—I’m no expert in identity politics poker, but I’m guessing she rakes in the chips in this game.

And in Texas, they have drive-thru liquor stores in some jurisdictions.

To continue the hideous derailment: I can confirm this with the evidence of my own eyes.  There’s one in Grapevine on Highway 26 over by where the Wienerschitzel used to be, though it seems to be only patchily open for business itself.

I didnt know that was a regional thing
What are they called in the rest of the country?

The generic/corporate term is “convenience store,” but America is a wonderfully diverse place. Wikipedia provides a taste.

Pam’s black and female and lesbian—I’m no expert in identity politics poker, but I’m guessing she rakes in the chips in this game.

But I am the daughter of immigrants from the Third World!

Don’t I win the prize?!

So, everyone in this thread who is talking about fucking PackageLicker stores is not a troll?

No, we’re all having a nice organic free-form conversation. Reminds me of college bull sessions.

But I am the daughter of immigrants from the Third World!
Don’t I win the prize?!

I’m *from* the Third World.  I win.

(Well, okay, Wainuiomata.  Second-and-a-half World, maybe)

But I am the daughter of immigrants from the Third World!

Don’t I win the prize?!

Well, I don’t know about Pam’s parentage. And second, having an achromatic straight male ass myself, I couldn’t possibly referee even if I did know. Judges?

Because censorship is BAD? Jesus Popsicle Fuck, Pandagon is supposed to be a safe place.

It is? According to what mission statement?

Apparently it’s not enough that the site is run by a racially and sexually diverse group of gen-u-ine liberals and progressives—people who value the First Amendment enough to offer an open comments section, and who value on-line community enough to allow a variety of opinions while not letting their site turn into a F*ckedCompany-type cesspool (not any easy task). Nope, they also have to follow your dictates and Uhura’s (and asdf’s, and the “trolls have rights” crowd…), because their progressive cred and years of experience running a group blog can’t be trusted.

Steve Gilliard used to liken running this sort of blog to running a successful neighbourhood bar—the owner sets the tone, and needs a mix of a bunch of sympatico regulars, a couple of pet obnoxious blowhards, and the occasional drop-in visitor to make the place interesting. Too many obnoxious blowhards, and the others leave; too few, and its a boring (read “safe”) echo chamber. And rule 1: don’t lecture the host on how to run the joint—it’s rude.

You make a lot of truly valuable contributions here, Essie—trust that they more than counter-balance the patently ridiculous ones posted by a few pet trolls. You want “safe,” then AOL and network television and USA Today beckon. Or start your own blog—I’d give it a chance.

Umm…Gracchass,

Why did you mention me by name?!

I’m not disputing he may well be the sort of person you’d want to have a beer with.

I like to think of Dana as Jim Anderson from the bland ‘50s sitcom Father Knows Best—if Jim Anderson offered advice to his kids like:

“It seems to me, Bud, that your new classmate is a faggot. I’d stay away from him or join your pals in beating the crap out of him…”

and

“He may not respect patient confidentiality, Kitten, but there’s nothing wrong with our good old family doctor ... why on Earth would you want to go to one of those genocidal lady-parts doctors with their baby-killing pills? Have you been hanging out with those slutty liberal girls at school?”

That image and the frequent opportunities to point out his logical fallacies and ignorance (which, admittedly, aren’t quite up to Frankie’s standards) are what make Dana a valuable member of this community.

Why did you mention me by name?!

Well, before you got into the spirit of the thing you were insisting that the comments flow a certain way, no?

OK, I didn’t read all the comments yet, but I just want to point out that Obama is half-white.  Why assume that he’s only looking out for black people?

Jesus H Christ - here we go again…

Well, before you got into the spirit of the thing you were insisting that the comments flow a certain way, no?

No. I was pointing out the absurd behavior: accusing the troll of thread derailment while derailing the thread yourself.

Would the next 10 writers comment on whether they believe the economy/stock market is stabilized?

Sorry for missing your question. No, I do not believe the economy/stock market is “stabilised”—lots more volatility ahead, for a multitude of reasons (not the least of which being that the even the Obama Administration won’t admit that these banks are insolvent).

Also, I take a longer view than 60 days—MBAs focusing obsessively on next quarter’s numbers to the exclusion of all else is one of the things that got us into this mess.

Man, I’m enjoying this thread.

That call to Jesus was about cathurl’s comment by the way.

Well, I’m an MBA & that shit ain’t my focus.

Sometimes I think conservatives just don’t like the idea that no individual person can control their destiny, and they may not “deserve” their spot in life.

I agree with this.

People on the top really need to believe they somehow deserve it.

coming it at #10, no I don’t.  The next set of ARM resets is about to trigger, and the commercial real estate defaults haven’t come close to their peak yet.  We should drop back to at least the previous trough (around 6800 on the Dow) probably sometime near the end of this summer.  And it’s going to be a long, slow trek back uphill.

No. I was pointing out the absurd behavior: accusing the troll of thread derailment while derailing the thread yourself.

Which troll? I’m losing count.

Seriously, I didn’t accuse anyone of derailment—citation/quote, please? Besides, that train has left the station (and the tracks) quite a while ago.

You know what?

When I first started posting here, people called me a troll.

Some of this was is IN conversations where “those poor Black people” were being discussed. I expressed a different POV and was dubbed a troll!

Well, I’m an MBA & that shit ain’t my focus.

Clearly you didn’t attend Harvard B-school, madam.

IMHO the recession ends by the end of this summer, slow growth or flat in 2010 and finally a strong recovery in 2011.

But unemployment will continue to be bad through next year (it’s always the very last thing to recover). That’s why for example the economy was still an issue in the 1992 Election even though we found out later the recession had technically ended in 1991. Normal people are the lest to feel a recovery.

I assure you, the recession will most certainly NOT end by the end of this summer.

Franklin Raines has a business….

HAHAHAHAHAHAH HAH HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA…. hahaha

Sorry, that was my first good laugh of the day.

Yes, he sells lemonade to his neighbors.  Or maybe he delivers newspapers to the neighborhood.  There’s no way this boy is old enough to be out of his parent’s house.  Whatever his business is, it can’t be very successful considering the amount of time he devotes to trolling blogs.  I mean, he must be constantly refreshing the page just to get in that first comment.

Calling other commenters things like “Gracchass” and “cathurl” might have somewhat to do with people thinking you may live under a bridge and eat goats.  But I suppose some might find it endearing.

You people think a liquor store is the same thing as a convenience store?

Who are you calling “you people”? How offensive!

In SoCal, there seems to be some overlap between liquor store and convenience store—the former often sells food items, and the latter often sells beer and wine. When I was a teenager there, the closest convenience store billed itself as a liquor store. Even so, I never bought into that guff—I’m a purist, and if I want to get stinking drunk I want to avail myself of a wide selection of cheap alcohol and knowledgeable staff one can only find at a fine liquor store.

Don’t forget the “ABC Store” !

That call to Jesus was about cathurl’s comment by the way.

Aww, what a cute little pun.  See Franklin?  This is how proper trolls make insults.

It’s also cute how she resorted to a little pun instead of actually addressing what I said.  I’ll have to give her a B+ in trolling.  (You can’t get an A unless you bring up a Mac vs. PC debate on a random thread, and you can’t get and A+ unless you start to sound time-cubish.)  I have give Franklin some credit for trying so hard to be the first commenter, but overall I’d give him a C- for his nonsensical attempts at insults.  Keep trying, Frankie!  You might be able to move up to a B-.

cathurl is a troll herself.

I had to ban her from my website recently.

Don’t forget the “ABC Store” !

Ooooh, a socialist liquor store chain, like the evil Canadians have. That should draw out our Libertarians, who’ll also weigh in on the economy (“All is well! Remain calm!!!!”).

Calling other commenters things like “Gracchass” and “cathurl” might have somewhat to do with people thinking you may live under a bridge and eat goats.

I don’t take it personally, although honestly I’d expect more than “Gracchass” from someone who came up with “achromatic ass.”

Be that as it may, Uhura, catgirl has over five times as many comments at this website than you do, and joined over a month before you did (at a blog that has only required joining for four or so). So it’s you that’s on thin ice, not her.

It doesn’t matter what his racial makup is.

Unless, of course, it’s for a minstrel show. I’m sure that both you and Rush are connoisseurs of that art form.

If you’re white, even though you make up about 80% of America, you don’t deserve any consideration.

“Help, help! I’m being oppressed!”

“Look at all the whites here on this blog and they only want to help black people.”

...well, doesn’t that just sum up the Reichwing / Liberal divide on attitudes toward race in one sentence…

cathurl is a troll herself.

I had to ban her from my website recently.

I have never been to Uhura’s site, and I have never been banned from any site at all (in case I was at a site that I didn’t realize was hers).  Lying is another classic troll behavior.  I can give her an A- now.  She’ll still have to work a lot harder to reach time-cube level though.

I have no idea what kind of site Uhura might have, but I generally make a habit of avoiding extreme right-wing blogs.  The bright, flashing colors and frivolous use of unnecessary apostrophes gives me a headache.

Geez louise, still talking at that idiot Franklin?

I scrolled and I scrolled and scrolled and he’s still spouting off bigoted nonsense.

As someone who has cut her blogs down to those that don’t feature comments from the deliberately stupid and racist, I’ll be sad to leave Pandagon.

But this thread is turning into a sad copy of an AOL-level forum, where the yahoos (isn’t that ironic?) clusterfuck for dumber-than-a-bag-of hammers arguments.

Hint: it does no good to talk sense to the senseless (at Daily Kos they usta respond to the trolls with recipes), or drive away readers who prefer not to clutter up their beautiful mindless with the senseless crap and claptrap.

BARBECUED BUTTERFLIED CHUCK STEAK  

boneless center-cut chuck steak, butterflied
sea salt
freshly cracked black pepper
garlic powder
1 large onion, thinly sliced
about 3/4 cup dry red wine
1 tablespoon butter
1 tablespoon freshly minced parsley
1 clove garlic, crushed

Have your butcher butterfly the steak to a 1 inch thickness.
Season steak on both sides with cracked black pepper and sea salt. Place steak and onions in a ziploc bag or stainless steel pan and pour over enough wine to almost cover; cover, chill, and marinate overnight. Remove meat from marinade. Sprinkle with garlic powder and grill over hot charcoal to desired doneness.

Heat the marinating onions in wine. Bring to a boil, reduce heat and simmer for 10 minutes with parsley, and crushed garlic. Remove from heat and stir in butter. Serve steak topped with onions and drizzled with sauce.

Makes 3 to 4 servings.

judybrowni,

I disagree with you on the prevalence of stupid and racist trolls here—the site owners keep them down to a dull roar, and you’d be missed if you left.

On the upside, I do agree with you on the deliciousness of the recipe, although a vegetarian will be arriving in short order to denounce you.

... wtf?

*sigh*
I’m going to bet that Franklin could make a nice sideline business out of writing up nice, tidy, head in the clouds (or up the ass) blurbs about
“Dreaming your way to your best life!”
and slapping them into a book that I’m sure would make it onto the Oprah book club.

Take this for example

How “lucky” do you think Obama would have been if he hadn’t prepared himself to be lucky?

Well isn’t that just out of a self-help book?
The only problem with saying shit like this is that you ignore all of the shit that blocks other (mostly) non-white people from being as “lucky” as Barack Obama. The only problem with being such a head-in-the-sand type is that while you’re busy sticking your fingers in your ears say “lalalala! not listening! everything is OK!”
Shit is pretty far from OK.

You can argue all you want about how you THINK that things are equal but years and years and generations and generations of dealing with the same shit have proven that they’re NOT.

And comments like this

If you’re white, even though you make up about 80% of America, you don’t deserve any consideration. You don’t deserve basic fairness. You’re the devil.

They really further along the perception of you as someone who can’t open their goddamn eyes and actually have some empathy/sympathy what have you for people who aren’t either from your loins or closely related to you. And that’s fucked up and sad.
I feel sorry for you Franklin. You’re the real “what’s in it for me” type - you’re the type that can benefit the most from people here on Pandagon trying to open your eyes to the actual world. Not the world that you wish it was.

... wtf?

A fitting commentary on this entire thread, Kristin. I have to go for a while, but I hope to see this thread topping 200 comments on all manner of topics (including at least one vegetable recipe to accompany the steak one, and a wine recommendation—bought from a liquor store) when I return.

Since we’re on recipes, does anyone have a good slow-cooker recipe that doesn’t have any dairy or green vegetables in it?  I have to make something for a diverse crowd.

I’m numb to any news stories about Rush Limbaugh at this point.

I’m mystified that [Dana]‘s considered “anti-woman”

He doesn’t grant us the right of bodily autonomy.  Right there, anti-woman.

  But I am the daughter of immigrants from the Third World!

  Don’t I win the prize?!

Not unless you’re Intersexed. 

Doesn’t really matter that your parents immigrated—>they had an abundance of melanin that they passed on to you, and that’s all that matters.  And you, Pam, and Jesse all tied on the POC points.

Unless you were an Anchor Baby.  You might get points for that.

As for poor Frankie…he’s been here on several threads and has yet to argue in good faith, although he has followed some Troll Instruction and improved slightly in topic, spelling, and grammar.

Can we go Cthulu?  Or at least BSG?

Just saw Caprica last night, and was really bored, though I thought the original sentient mind in a Centurion was a bit clever.

Oh…and in 58 years everyone gets nuked!!!  Bah!!!  Spoilers!!!!!!  I’ve ruined it for everyone!!!!

Apparently it’s not enough that the site is run by a racially and sexually diverse group of gen-u-ine liberals and progressives—people who value the First Amendment enough to offer an open comments section,

You do no one any favors by implying that commenters have First Amendment rights on Pandagon owners’ private property. Not even the spirit of the issue is similar; there is no right to use someone else’s property as a platform for one’s own speech. I appreciate the privilege of commenting here, but it has nothing to do with free speech.

and who value on-line community enough to allow a variety of opinions while not letting their site turn into a F*ckedCompany-type cesspool (not any easy task). Nope, they also have to follow your dictates and Uhura’s (and asdf’s, and the “trolls have rights” crowd…), because their progressive cred and years of experience running a group blog can’t be trusted.

Not at all. Asking that a few more trolls be banned is valuable feedback. Likewise, asking to keep those trolls around is valuable feedback. Our hosts can ignore any particular requests, but they do need to know something about the readers’ subjective experiences. Sharing our opinions does not at all imply that we don’t trust them to work things out; it’s a compliment to them that we know we’ll at least be listened to and our experiences considered.

Actually, I thought Caprica was pretty good.  It portrayed the religious conflict pretty well, and I’m intrigued by where it could go in a series.

And I’m just happy to see Eric Stoltz working again.

“a good slow-cooker recipe”

Are you okay with celery, carrots and beef chuck? If so, then yes, I have a good pot roast slow-cooker recipe.

It really bums me out that this Franky dude has taken over Pandagon.  Instead of discussing the matter at hand, everyone follows his idiotic comments.  Once I see his name on a comment, I quit following the thread because I know most of the intelligent conversation is over. 

Don’t let him do this, guys.  He’s ruining Pandagon.  I come here for the smart commentary not troll bashing.

You know what?

When I first started posting here, people called me a troll.

Some of this was is IN conversations where “those poor Black people” were being discussed. I expressed a different POV and was dubbed a troll!

I don’t know when you first started posting here. But I do remember this: http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/ballot_initiatives_provide_a_wake_up_call_to_the_lgbt_community_about_race/

And you were not called a troll for expressing a different point of view. If you still cannot figure out why people objected to your behavior and believed you were trolling in that thread, then I’m sorry for you.

at Daily Kos they usta respond to the trolls with recipes

Why did disemvoweling go out of fashion?

Hmm..I’m a bit disappointed that I have to defend an anti-censorship position on this or any other “progressive” blog. Yes, Franklin is an asshat, but he’s hasn’t engaged in any unnecessary obscenities, threatened anybody, or tried in any serious fashion to hijack the thread, so why are folks here so quick to ban him? I thought that thin-skinned “I don’t like what you’re saying so I’m going to deny you a platform to speak”  shit was the province of conservatives. Silly liberal me…

“It really bums me out that this Franky dude has taken over Pandagon.  Instead of discussing the matter at hand, everyone follows his idiotic comments.  Once I see his name on a comment, I quit following the thread because I know most of the intelligent conversation is over. ”

I couldn’t agree more, but we’re still talking about stupid Frankie, and so I’m posting one of my favorite recipes (which has survived all of the mutations I’ve subjected it to.)

Sweet Italian Sausage Stew

* oil to coat bottom of pot
* 1-2 pounds of Sweet Italian Sausage—chicken or pork, or one of each. (optional—1/2 - 1 pound hamburger, if you like stew meatier.)
* 1-2 onions (chopped)
* 1 or more chopped or sliced garlic cloves (use as many of you like!)
* 1-2 large cans of chopped tomatoes
* 1 16 oz bag of frozen green beans (or fresh, or canned) (Optional: substitute—or add—chopped celery, green squash, or any other green vegetable you may have on hand and/or 1 or more chopped yellow, orange, red or green bell peppers—yellow, orange, red add a nice contrast in color, and better flavor than green, in my opinion)
* water or broth
* hearty pinch—or more!—black pepper
* salt to taste.

Cut sausage into rounds and brown in oil (also brown hamburger, if using.)

Remove meat, and sautee onions and garlic (and celery or bell peppers, if using) until onions are soft. Add tomatoes, green beans (or any other vegetables and meat), pepper, and enough water or broth to not-quite cover ingredients (vegetables will add liquid when cooked down.)

Bring to a boil, briefly—and simmer for 45 minutes to 1 hour.

Salt individual portions to taste.

Would the next 10 writers comment on whether they believe the economy/stock market is stabilized?

No.  The graphs on the housing market in the US suggest it has not bottomed out, suggesting that there is yet more stress to come.  I strongly suspect that there will be yet more failures in the global economy, probably from unanticipated directions, with unpredictable ripple effects.

There’s a lot of frayed strings, and there’s more weight yet to be piled on them.  I can name one specific problem affecting NZ which has me deeply worried.

catgirl, I have a lovely french onion soup recipe that can be modified for dairy / non dairy and vegetarian / carnivore. Chicken (or tofu) with tandoori spices (boxed) and potatos and carrots also seems to please even picky people.

I know I don’t post that often, but I read every day and have to agree with Essie. I have been involved in other online communities that have sustained damaged (derailed threads, members leaving etc) by one person who’s sole intention is to be devisive.

Seriously, this guy is loving every moment of attention and distraction away from a healthy dialog, which of course can contain differing views if intelligently presented. I am choosing not to respond to him because I don’t find it worth the effort or to be very much fun. Perhaps other contributors feel that the fun with him has not run it’s course, but I’m getting pretty tired of it.

Although I wouldn’t recommend substituting asparagus for any of the green vegetables above.

I find Franklin to be amusing.  It’s rather like having Grampa Simpson as a regular commenter.  I keep expecting him to tell us how, in his day, they all had to say “dickety” because the Kaiser stole the word “twenty” and how everyone used to wear an onion on his belt, which was the style at the time.

Engaging in a serious debate with Grandpa Simpson is usually a waste of time, but, hey, knock yourselves out.

The internet—a useful tool for either debate or mockery.  It’s all good.

Franklin believes that rights are mutually exclusive, and that if we care at all about minorities, that means we are completely ignoring and/or suppressing white people.  It is just impossible to dislike racism without wanting to take everything away from white people.  Oh wait, I bet he thinks that’s something a psychiatrist would say.

You see, that’s what I’m talking about!

Good stuff.

You know what?

When I first started posting here, people called me a troll.

Some of this was is IN conversations where “those poor Black people” were being discussed. I expressed a different POV and was dubbed a troll!
Uhura on 05/14 at 12:47 PM

That’s because you surfaced, announcing your delurk, in order to be a proud homophobe.

Now to be fair, when you aren’t gay-bashing you do sometimes seem to engage in an interesting and challenging way.

But then again, this whole thread-police trip you are on here in this thread pushes you right back into the “troll” category.

I certainly don’t make the rules around here (though I do respect them, which is why I like Pandagon as my first and often only pitstop on the Net)—but neither do you. And you seem to think somehow you are entitled to do so.

I have no problem distinguishing you from the likes of FR. But I also think you’ve often done exactly the same sort of thing, from a different perspective—and sometimes not so different at all. On gender diversity, for instance, it seems you and he are in perfect agreement.

That, IIRC, was the “different” view you offered when you first popped up here, the one you say we blew off ‘cause we’re a bunch of racists.

——
Onward. I for one see no point in keeping FR around; he is neither friendly, enlightening, nor entertaining. And he is offensive.

Hey, just around Christmas time didn’t old “Rugged in Montana” threaten to flounce off in a huff—and being the comedy gold he was, the punchline was that he actually did go away and never came back! Man, I miss him, but if he comes back I guess that would ruin his magnificent closing act…

Just because I am obtuse I’m going to say that I always figured RiM was a brilliant comedian, of Jesus’s General caliber. So no, I’m not really talking about the qualities I look for in a genuine whacked-out commentator.

Note I’m not saying “troll” because the former are people who sincerely hold views most of us here find bizarre or obnoxious, while a troll proper is just around to stir up trouble for the sheer fun of it.

What’s an Anchor Baby?

I make vegetarian chili in my slow cooker (some times I get wild and add ground turkey if I’m not feeding vegetarians).  I don’t use a recipe but just kind of throw in the usual ingredients in whatever quantities move me (or how much I have in the pantry), turn it on and leave.  Some times it turns out better than others but it’s never bad.

Canned diced tomatoes (extra points for the kind with green chilis added)
Canned kidney beans
Canned black beans
Canned chil beans
A handful of frozen corn
Onion
Garlic
Lots of cumin
Lots of chili powder
Any other hot pepper you like - I’m in northern MN so I keep it pretty mild. 
lb of ground turkey if you’re so inclined. Brown it in a skillet first to reduce the risk of undercooking.

I recommend rinsing the kidney and black beans before adding them to reduce the bloating and noxious fumes.

I cook it on low if I’m going to be at work all day.

Damn. I am not a good cook. :(

“At Daily Kos they usta respond to the trolls with recipes”

Interesting, they must have ganked it from alt.folklore.urban.

Mark Foxwell:  “Hey, just around Christmas time didn’t old “Rugged in Montana” threaten to flounce off in a huff—and being the comedy gold he was, the punchline was that he actually did go away and never came back!”

RiM wasn’t a real troll, he was fake.  Astrotroll if you will. 

Someone outed his real identity; whether correctly or not, I don’t know, but the identity was someone well-known in the blogging community so I won’t repeat it.

I’m going away for the weekend (and my recipe file is very thin) so I’ll ask the rest of the gourmands on Pandagon if they would please feed the trolls only with their favorite recipes.

Really. If you make the mistake of responding to their racist, bigoted idiocy you only give them the go-ahead to spew MORE racist, bigoted, idiocy—and eventually drive away the people who’d rather not comment on threads full of racist, bigoted idiocy.

I’m guessing it’s the troll who has stalked Amanda (and Pandagon) for years. He can’t stay away, and his M.O. (and standard whine about how black people have brought everything on themselves) never changes.

RiM wasn’t a real troll, he was fake.  Astrotroll if you will.

I said that, didn’t I?

Well, I didn’t know know; I suspect this “outing” happened during the hiatus of a couple weeks just around Xmas when our house had burned down and I had no reliable Net access, and so got about a hundred posts behind and never caught up on them. But it seemed obvious he was a comedian. And a good one.

Someone outed his real identity; whether correctly or not, I don’t know, but the identity was someone well-known in the blogging community so I won’t repeat it.
oldfeminist on 05/14 at 04:58 PM

I did not know that. I don’t understand either. I still figure either he figured it was best to leave ‘em laughing before it got old and planned to bow out anyway, or he improv’d on the “outing” for similar effect.

What’s an Anchor Baby?
Uhura on 05/14 at 04:42 PM

This sounds like a serious question, Uhura, so I will answer it seriously, though sadly.

It’s a bigoted trope that says that “wicked illegal immigrants are always scheming to pop out a baby on US soil so they then can’t be deported!” The “Anchor Baby” would be the child, who is of course a US citizen, having been born here.

I’m surprised you haven’t heard of this somewhere or other. I did from a coworker.

But two years ago I’d have either had to ask your question or guess at its meaning myself.

I honestly didn’t know that, either, Mark.

And sorry for the derailment earlier—it was an honest question and only after I asked it did I realize there weren’t any commenting rules anywhere that I could find.

If anyone has any good recipes including bacon salt, I just bought some original and some peppered.

And the Pandagon brain trust is considering Franklin’s fate as we speak.

Oops, that link was supposed to be around Franklin’s name.

Har har har.

(That whole thing was much funnier when I conceived it.)

Someone outed his real identity; whether correctly or not, I don’t know, but the identity was someone well-known in the blogging community so I won’t repeat it.

If it’s the person I’m thinking of, wasn’t that just a comparison not an outing? oldfeminist, would you e-mail me please with the location of this possible outing? augusteisfree at gmail dot com.

at Daily Kos they usta respond to the trolls with recipes

Why did disemvoweling go out of fashion?

At a site I used to write for, we replaced “faggot” and “nigger” and “slut” with “fluffy kittens” for a while…good times.

John Adams had a rather dark reputation of being obnoxious and disliked.

This does not mean if you make yourself obnoxious and disliked, you are the equal of a founder of our country, brilliant statesman and all around awesome guy.

although his wife was smarter than he was. But at least he recognized it.

I do miss the disemvowelling ... and (oh hell I’ll admit it) the bunnies too.

Since when is unemployment insurance a form of welfare?  It is insurance!

Crock Pot Beef Stew

1 lb beef, cubed
1/4 c flour
Glug oil to coat pan.
2-3 potatoes
1-2 carrots (or frozen equivalent)
1 leek, or half onion
2 cans beef broth
Pinch rosemary
Pinch thyme
2-3 grinds black pepper
Scant pinch tarragon

Heat oil in large pan over med-high heat.  Coat beef with flour; add to pan.  Brown on all sides.  Add to crockpot.  Slice potatoes, carrots, and leeks or onions.  (You can also add celery, or any other veggies that tickle your fancy—or omit all but the basics, for non-veggie eaters like me.)  Add broth.  Top with water if needed.  Add spices to taste—you can use any or all of the above.

Cook per the directions and your experience with the crockpot.  I usually let mine go for 3 hours on high.

Mr. A. likes a thicker stew, so once things have finished cooking, I melt about 1 TB butter, add 2 TB flour, and slowly add about 1/2 cup of the cooking liquid.  Once that’s cooked for a couple minutes, throw it back in the pot to thicken the stew.

(I love to bake, and I love to give Mr. A. cooking ideas, since he does most of the cooking around here.  Can I put in a vote for handing out recipes instead of responding to icky trolls like Franky?)

Clearly I stopped referring to myself as “Dr. Psycho, Past Master of Fried Potatoes and Sausage” much too soon.

Fried Potatoes and Sausage the Master’s Way

1 pound Kielbasa or other suitable summer sausage
2 or 3 pounds washed potatoes
Bacon grease, enough to make a puddle at the bottom of the pan
Dry basil leaves, flaked
Garlic or other spices as desired
Large frying pan, preferably deep, like a Dutch oven

Cut sausage into thickish slices.  Cut potatoes into very thin slices.  Heat pan to 350 degrees Fahrenheit and put in grease to melt.

Fry potatoes in hot bacon grease with dry basil flakes, turning each slice until it is brown on both sides.  Fry a few slices at a time and collect them into a dish, or onto paper towel to absorb grease.

Fry the sausage slices separately, in bacon grease, at a lower temperature than the potatoes.

Mix everything together for a brief joint frying, then serve in the pan.  Dish out onto plates.  Offer salt, pepper and ketchup.

Man, it’s been quite a hike down here to the blank space. By the time I got here, I had forgotten my original comment. It was something along the lines of Magis’s letter to Obama. My neighborhood is too boring. I don’t have a decent chicken shack and the closest liquor store (yes, that’s what I call it) is 15 minutes away. Too far. I expect the current administration to do something about that for my achromatic ass. blah blah blah

Anyway, I thought I’d help out with the recipes. You’re welcome to add bacon salt to it just to increase the bacon saturation point.

Bacon Explosion (not mine, Google it under that name to find the original but this was my take on it)

24 slices good quality, smoky bacon
1 1/2 pounds bulk Italian sausage (sweet, hot or mixture)
Good barbeque dry rub

Take half the bacon and weave it into a mat 6x6 in an over-under, warp-and-weft kind of pattern.
Sprinkle with dry rub
Spackle the mat with the sausage.
Sprinkle with dry rub
Fry up the rest of the sausage and crumble it over the sausage mat.
Roll up the sausage only, leaving the bacon mat flat on the board, around the cooked bacon.
Roll up the sausage roll in the bacon.
Sprinkle with dry rub.
Place on broiler pan or rack in a roasting pan
Cook on high (500 or so) for about 10 minutes or until bacon looks done.
Cook on low (250) for another 1.5-2 hours.
Or you can smoke it for several hours.
Slice into rounds and serve. BBQ sauce as a dipping sauce works well.

Enjoy!

Plane
who found this thread so enjoyable in an ironical meta-analysis kind of way.

If it’s clear the person really has no intention to discuss thinsg, ignore them rather than clutter the thread with troll turds.

I agree.  Let’s just ignore that idiot Uhura from now on.

186 comments…disappointing.

You do no one any favors by implying that commenters have First Amendment rights on Pandagon owners’ private property.

I implied no such thing in that comment. I stated, very clearly, that the site owners (not the commenters) are “people who value the First Amendment enough to offer an open comments section.” Granted, commenting requires registration now, but they still let conservative fantasists post as long as they don’t start threatening people or spewing vile stereotypes. As I said, Pam & co. are the bar owners—as such it’s implied that they can give anyone the bum’s rush at any time.

there is no right to use someone else’s property as a platform for one’s own speech.

Very true, but show me where I implied that the site owners didn’t have the right to boot or censor trolls—I didn’t, and in fact mentioned that the eventually do so. My point is that they (wisely) do it sparingly. They try to give dissenters (even jerks) the benefit of the doubt in terms of their good faith—in other words, a commitment to the principles of free speech.

That said, I’m right there laughing when trolls who praise censorious wingnut sites like LGF or RedState start whingeing about their right to be raging jerks the moment they’re given a warning. Eventually FR will be making the same cry.

Asking that a few more trolls be banned is valuable feedback.

Asking as in “ban them or I’m leaving! [pout]”—that’s a threat, albeit an unnecessary and mild one. Do you really think that the site owners are unaware that Frankie is an idiot troll? I’m sure they appreciate the feedback, but they and not us are going to decide whether or not to keep him as a pet or toss him to the kerb. Again, publicly lecturing the bar owners (especially ones like Pandagon’s owners) is rude.

I don’t know when [Uhura] first started posting here. But I do remember this:

Right ... now I remember Uhura: good on the feminism (especially if you’re female), good on the racial tolerance (as long as you’re Black), ambivalent on same-sex marriage. She has a lot in common with the traditionalist Dana on that last topic. And yeah, she wasn’t really engaging in good-faith debate in that thread. But she was entertaining.

And “Ostiarius” was in that thread, too—now there was one demented and aggressively stupid troll! If you guys think Frankie’s current posts are crazy and obnoxious, you should see what was tolerated before Osti was banned by the owners (several times ... under different handles).

It really bums me out that this Franky dude has taken over Pandagon

He hasn’t “taken over”—if you look at most threads where he appears, he puts in a couple of non-sequiturs and slams at the usual wingnut boogeymen, then takes some well-deserved mockery before disappearing for a while and leaving the grown-ups to talk. This thread is unusual in that people got a little silly, which is fine once in a while. No-one really takes him seriously. Eventually he’ll be banned when the site owners get bored with his nonsense.

Why did disemvoweling go out of fashion?

Not sure if they ever did it here. It’s still alive and well at BoingBoing, where the quality of the moderators is ok, but not up to the high traffic and the trolls it brings. So they can use a little help in the form of a quick-and-dirty tech solution.

I implied no such thing in that comment. I stated, very clearly, that the site owners (not the commenters) are “people who value the First Amendment enough to offer an open comments section.”

And that’s a non sequitur. Just as they cannot remove a commenter’s First Amendment rights by banning or censoring, they cannot provide or respect First Amendment rights by allowing comments.

Value the First Amendment? Join the ACLU. Opening or closing the comment function on a privately owned blog has absolutely nothing to do with it.

If you had said they “value vigorous debate enough…” then you might have had a point.

Asking as in “ban them or I’m leaving! [pout]”—that’s a threat, albeit an unnecessary and mild one. Do you really think that the site owners are unaware that Frankie is an idiot troll? I’m sure they appreciate the feedback, but they and not us are going to decide whether or not to keep him as a pet or toss him to the kerb. Again, publicly lecturing the bar owners (especially ones like Pandagon’s owners) is rude.

Not a threat I made. Not a threat Essie made. Maybe you should read more carefully before you lecture us.

That said, we’ll just have to disagree on the rudeness of that hypothetical. If I had said “ban them or I’m leaving,” I don’t think that would be rude. Maybe I’m wrong. Either way it certainly would still be valuable feedback; gauging the point at which commenters start to leave is important to ad revenue.

Thanks for the chili recipe, badkitty!  I think that will satisfy everyone in my group with diverse dietary restrictions.

Pandagon did disemvowling, as well as bunnification (replacing egregious troll comments with bunny YouTube videos), but both seemed to stop after the last blogging platform change. 

With Amanda being so busy with writing, etc., Jesse going to law school, and Pam always busy (working a full time job, as well as running her own blog, and also contributing to Pandagon), it’s asking a lot to do things that take too much time.  Easier to ban and/or erase, at least that’s impression I get…

***

Back on topic, sort of, where would one get a high quality and fashionable KKK robe and pointy hat these days?  Is there some place like Bigot World, Robes ‘R Us, King ‘O Skinheads, Everything NeoNazi, etc., that supplies such an obvious need like that?...

And that’s a non sequitur. Just as they cannot remove a commenter’s First Amendment rights by banning or censoring, they cannot provide or respect First Amendment rights by allowing comments.

“Provide”? No—only the Constitution does that. “Respect”? definitely, especially in comparison to wingnut and (ironically) Libertarian blogs.

If you had said they “value vigorous debate enough…” then you might have had a point.

Why do you think the founders put in amendment 1? Because the health of the republic was based on the right to post cute cat pictures?

Not a threat I made. Not a threat Essie made. Maybe you should read more carefully before you lecture us.

No, you both just imply (and JudyBrowni makes it more explicit) that you’ll leave Pandagon (with great sadness) if the owners don’t ban FR. That’s your right, but it’s rude and implies (despite their history with banning other trolls) that the site owners don’t know enough to come to the conclusion on their own. One of the reasons I come here is because the site owners run their free-wheeling community in a way I haven’t seen since we lost Steve Gilliard—I trust them enough not to give them such obvious “feedback.”

Anyhow, looking at Auguste’s comment upstream, it seems that FR’s days here are indeed numbered. Fortunately, we still have Dana and EricJG to make sport of.

This sounds like a serious question, Uhura, so I will answer it seriously, though sadly.

It’s a bigoted trope that says that “wicked illegal immigrants are always scheming to pop out a baby on US soil so they then can’t be deported!” The “Anchor Baby” would be the child, who is of course a US citizen, having been born here.

I’m surprised you haven’t heard of this somewhere or other. I did from a coworker.

But two years ago I’d have either had to ask your question or guess at its meaning myself.

Holy Shit. Thanks - I did not know that. My parents actually came into the US as teenagers on Student Visas. They were sponsored by relatives who had already obtained citizenship.

The thing is - I think that when I was a child, using an Anchor Baby to stay in the US was actually an option. Now, they’ll deport your ass anyway, so the term (& the practice) holds little meaning today..

Now, they’ll deport your ass anyway, so the term (& the practice) holds little meaning today.

True, though the earth will be destroyed in the sun’s inevitable expansion farther along the Main Sequence before Lou Dobbs stops using it as a dog-whistle.

OK, but - that was very odd.

Gracchus, I don’t really know where you’re coming from on this with your overly hostile response to my request to ban FR. I did not “threaten” to leave, and I don’t think that even if I had, such a statement would be rude or disrespectful to the Pandagon blog owners. It’s just feedback.

In your world, Pandagon may be a thriving place of First Amendment troll-baiting, but in my recollection, Pandagon has a very useful Dumber-Than-A-Stick ban rule (I’ve even seen the stick - it’s very nice!) and I’m asking that it be enforced against FR for obvious reasons.

I get that you’re saying that if I find FR offensively offensive then, well, I shouldn’t let the door hit my ass on the way out. And if that’s the way the owners feel, they won’t ban FR and I probably will stop reading here simply because I have very little tolerance for “women who abort to save their own lives are baby-murdering demon-possessed slut-bitches” posts, which is pretty much the sum of FR’s material. And, frankly, I’m sad enough about Obama being a disappointment to gay marriage rights without a whole lot of “ha, ha, your Savior hates you fags” crap from the peanut gallery. Again, there’s a reason I don’t listen to Rush Limbaugh and it’s to save my blood pressure.

Now, if Pandagon wants to revoke the Stick Ban Rule because of “first amendment rights” (seriously, when I hear that crap regarding blogs, my eyes ache from the stupidity, but whatever) or because the click counts are worth more money with trolls to stir shit up, or whatever reason, then hey, it’s totally their blog and I respect that. But, yeah, I probably will go somewhere else to post, just like how I came to Pandagon from another site that got too troll-friendly for my personal taste. That’s not a threat, it’s just market research.

On a related note, I now have to go “threaten” Olive Garden by writing them an email saying that if they don’t start providing nutritional information online for their full menu, I’m going to have to find a new restaurant to eat at. That’s just how I roll. I’m a rebel.

OG is my favorite spot!

Wow. If you guys are eating at the Olive Garden, we need a designated recipe thread.

On a related note, I now have to go “threaten” Olive Garden by writing them an email saying that if they don’t start providing nutritional information online for their full menu, I’m going to have to find a new restaurant to eat at. That’s just how I roll. I’m a rebel.

“Dear Olive Garden,

I am disappointed to find that your restaurant is not the ‘safe nutritional place’ that was implicitly promised nowhere in your in your branding. If you do not immediately post your nutritional information (not because it makes sense in the current marketplace, and not because of pending government regulation, but because I say so), then I will discontinue my patronage, thereby destroying your restaurant.”

My comments seem to be more on topic than most. swapping recipes like a couple of old ladies is certainly off topic.

Does this count as literally feeding the troll?  This thread’s gone to hell anyway, so have cookies!

Chocolate Chip Peanut Butter Cookies

1/2 c butter, softened
1/2 c peanut butter
3/4 c sugar
3/4 c brown sugar
2 eggs
1/2 tsp salt
1 tsp baking soda
2 c flour
1 c chocolate chips

Preheat oven to 375.  Cream together the butter, peanut butter, and white and brown sugars.  Mix in salt and eggs.  Add flour, 1/2 c to 1 c at a time.  Stir in chocolate chips. 

Dough will be more crumbly than regular choc. chip cookie dough, so grease your hands and roll about 1 TB of dough between your palms before placing on cookie sheet.  Repeat.  Bake cookies about 12 minutes.

Oh, and you should add the baking soda with the salt and eggs.  Forgot to do that with a batch once, and the results could’ve been used to build a wall.

(That whole thing was much funnier when I conceived it.)

Auguste

Thus is the tragedy of true comic genius.
I share your pain.

the needs of whites has been discussed.

If you’re an example, it’s obvious that it needs to begin with the #1 topic, education…........

So, Franklin, why are you a dumb white man?  How has our society failed to meet your needs in that respect?

Karinna A:

Stop with the cookie recipes already.  We’re supposed to be against torture on this blog.

(They sound soooooooo good)

signed,
Dying by Diet

You know what’s good?

Take a couple of square of baker’s chocolate and a stick of butter.  Put them in a medium sized bowl and melt them in the microwave on low.

Toss in a cup of sugar.

Toss in a teaspoon of vanilla

Mix in 3/4 cup of flour.

Add a couple eggs.

Toss in a few handfuls of chocolate chips..

Put in a 9x9 pan at 350 degrees for 25-35 minutes.

Those are the best brownies.  Putting the eggs in last makes the crust a little crunchier.

Magis-

Is it cheating to admit that I bake these when my gaming group is over?  Usually means I get one or two cookies, and the guys devour the rest.  They’re my primary guinea pigs when I try new recipes, so I figure I should reward them once in awhile with the good stuff.

Caren-Sun-blocking Creator-

I’m going to have to write that one down.

Back on topic, sort of, where would one get a high quality and fashionable KKK robe and pointy hat these days?

KKK-Mart, of course

Why do you think the founders put in amendment 1? Because the health of the republic was based on the right to post cute cat pictures?

Vigorous debate and subversive cat pictures are both protected by the First Amendment from government interference.

Did Pandagon take over Dick Cheney’s secret super-executive fourth branch of government? Is the server hosting paid with a federal grant? Because unless this website is project of the government, it’s meaningless to talk about the First Amendment, and you are talking nonsense.

“Provide”? No—only the Constitution does that. “Respect”? definitely, especially in comparison to wingnut and (ironically) Libertarian blogs.

In order to meaningfully say that they are respecting First Amendment rights, they would have to have the ability to infringe upon those rights. Are right-wing blogs infringing upon your rights when they censor you?

In any case, if the Pandagon crew were trying to simulate a First Amendment situation here, they would not ban anyone for anything except for breaking the law. But they ban trolls for being boring, and being boring is not yet illegal. I like that policy, but it does mean they aren’t trying to approximate the First Amendment.

No, you both just imply ... that you’ll leave Pandagon (with great sadness) if the owners don’t ban FR.

Get a grip. Now you’re imagining things that aren’t there. I’ve got no reason to imply anything. If I wanted to say I was on the verge of leaving, I would say so explicitly.

“It’s getting to where a lot of gays and women wouldn’t feel comfortable here. I know that I’m sick of it” means Essie’s got a pretty high threshold for bullshit, but she knows many people don’t and are probably already being turned off. If you’re just going to invent reasons to berate us now, you ought to make up things that don’t obviously conflict with what we’ve said.

One of the reasons I come here is because the site owners run their free-wheeling community in a way I haven’t seen since we lost Steve Gilliard—I trust them enough not to give them such obvious “feedback.”

And yet that very sentence was just such feedback. You want things to remain as they are and you’re saying so. Great. I’ve administered community websites before, and it’s always been helpful to hear opinions from commenters like you and Essie. It’s not rude.

...where would one get a high quality and fashionable KKK robe and pointy hat these days?

KKK-Mart, of course
jefft452 on 05/15 at 03:35 PM

Which must be the store holding the “All-White Sale” Margaret Cho speculated about…

Dear Essie, if you are still reading this, yours is one of the most interesting, humane, and appealing of the newer voices that have come around here in the past year or so. I hope you don’t get discouraged from hanging here.

What I do with FR dominated threads is, I skip er own posts completely, and skim the ones responding to them.

This means I sure can rip through a lot of threads lately at a fast clip…which is not really a good thing even with all the mandatory overtime I’m putting in nowadays.

E’s already virtually banned as far as I’m concerned.

By the way, I spent a lot of time last night looking at the Pandagon member list and other control-panel stuff. It seems that one might be able to banish a particular member from appearing in one’s own version of the threads.

I would never do that because you never know what you might miss.

I came this close to blasting another person (who posted way earlier than almost anyone else in this thread) before I took a closer look and realized the offending post was really just pointing to the crazy beliefs certain reactionaries espouse. I checked out said poster’s blog and they seemed OK there.

Catgirl:
“There’s no way this boy is old enough to be out of his parent’s house.” 

Come now, that’s not nice. I’m 24 years old, and still live with my parents, because my support is needed, financial and otherwise. Things would be different had my dad not made one specific choice years ago, or if my mom hadn’t been stuck with a butcher instead of a proper gyno (no offense intended) which resulted in a downward spiral of health. But this is the hand we were given, and i’ll be damned if i’ll walk away. Now my parents are in debt and my mom is practically bed-ridden; my dad had to work himself into an aortic aneurism and two heart attacks a few years ago and his medical expenses were thrown onto the mountain of my mom’s bills.

Yes, we’ve tried to get help, but it wasn’t there. We fit into some kind of magic income range that prohibited us from getting the help we need. Though, if we were black we could take part in this affirmative action thing i’ve heard so much about…..

Frankie= doesn’t learn shit.

Rained-on-Frankie=loser troll

“The objective is more food stamp benefits. The objective is more unemployment benefits. The objective is an expanding welfare state.”

Sounds good to me!

Man, us people who give a shit about the lives of people other than ourselves need us a new name. Some anti-woman douchebags already took “pro-life”.