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Next entry: She Wants Her Cookies Previous entry: Your Morning Karma

Re-fighting the 60s

Matt’s right-this article by Frank Rich that uses “Guess Who’s Coming To Dinner” as a reference point is a sobering reminder to those of us who were born after the 60s that the majority of Americans actually lived through those tumultuous times, which goes a long way to explain McCain’s baffling showing in the polls.  Because for all that McCain is supposedly so far behind, really this should be a blowout.  The Republicans have done pretty much everything they can to turn the public against them.  They suck away your tax dollars on a pet project war that turned into a clusterfuck, exactly as was predicted it would.  They’ve ushered in an economic crisis, the worst since the Great Depression.  The one thing people elected them to do in 2004, and trusted them to do—-shut down Islamic terrorism—-they not only didn’t do, but in fact they actively made the threat worse.  By all accounts, they shouldn’t even have a party anymore, they’ve fucked it up so badly. 

But Republicans hang in by re-fighting the 60s.  (And early 70s.) Which is rich, because as Dubya showed us, they’d really prefer to rebuild the 30s so they can do it “right” this time by turning most of the nation into a permanent underclass.  The Holy Grail of Republicanism is taking away programs that FDR founded, especially Social Security.  Re-fighting the 60s is a poor substitute for going straight to the source of liberalism in their eyes.  But most people living don’t remember the 30s, and even if they do, they take that past as unchangeable history, so Republicans are stuck re-fighting the 60s.  In the final days of the campaign season, the entire strategy of the Republican party campaigning can be summed up as, “Stoke fears that a certain class of people has been nurturing for 40 years.”  Elizabeth Dole busts out anxieties that have been alive since Time magazine put “Is God Dead?” on their cover in 1966.  The Norm Coleman campaign in Minnesota is mainly alive because they’ve been blanketing the airwaves with ads that suggest that Al Franken perhaps is a little soft on the issue of keeping women chained to the stove and pregnant.  And the McCain campaign’s argument has been reduced to, “Can you really believe we’re going to elect a black President?  Did I mention that he’s BLACK?!”


What’s fascinating to me is that the McCain campaign has gotten so deep into this that they’re actually reviving racist stereotypes that fall on deaf ears for younger generations.  Red-baiting particularly doesn’t make sense to those of us who, at best, remember the Cold War as background noise to our childhood games and perhaps necking sessions (and then there’s those of us who are so young we don’t really remember it at all).  For sure, we don’t actually remember a time when there was a genuine belief that the civil rights movement was considered a communist plot by pretty much all right-leaning Americans.  But for a lot of the older people (who vote a lot more consistently than younger people) sitting at McCain/Palin rallies, the word “socialist” conjures up black faces pretty immediately, especially in the context of this election.  Attempts to tie Obama to more recent ugly stereotypes of black people, including the use of the word “thug”, have fallen by the wayside.  The stereotypes the McCain campaign are leaning on are mostly 60s era ones—-that black people are openly hostile to America, that they’re socialists, even, with the Jeremiah Wright nonsense, that they’re separatists.  Stuff that doesn’t actually make sense to people who don’t remember that time.  People like me, who grew up with the civil rights movement neatly nestled in a history book, where the goodness and rightness of it goes unquestioned.  I don’t actually remember that there was any controversy over the MLK holiday, for instance.  The first inkling I had that people were still embittered by it was when my high school didn’t honor the holiday, and the mother of a friend of mine made her stay home from school in protest.  Until that time, it never even occurred to me that there was still a fight over this stuff, that the people who resisted the civil rights movement in the 60s were still around.

And of course, they still are and they still vote, and that’s whether or not they were grown adults in the 60s or teenagers.  One of the most frustrating things about elections where we continue to re-fight the 60s is how unfair it is to those of us who have to inherit a country that’s been torn up by the bitterness of people seeing white privilege (and male privilege and straight privilege) questioned.  Thanks for the enormous debt, Reagan voters, Bush voters, and (god forbid if he wins) McCain voters.  You sure showed those civil rights marchers who’s boss!  But chickens do come home to roost more quickly, I think, than people realized, as we’re seeing with this economic crisis.  No, you won’t be able to fuck up the country and then leave it for someone else to clean up.  Shit is hitting the fan now

The good news is that an Obama win will do a great deal of damage to the heritability of racism.  It won’t dismantle it, and in some parts of the country, it’ll harden it.  But just as I was baffled in the 90s to find out that there was any controversy over Martin Luther King’s obvious heroism, I suspect white kids that grow up after we have a black President will find the hysteria that is racism even more baffling.  It’s as good a argument as any as to why we can’t delay running racial minorities, gay men and women (of all sexual orientations) in elections because of electability issues, because the sooner the public gets used to the idea, the easier this is going to be on everyone.  It’s like the gay marriage thing.  In a weird, roundabout way, the hard right shot themselves in the foot by making gay marriage such an issue, because it prompted gay rights organizations to prioritize it.  (Even I remember when gay marriage was something of a non-issue.)  But the more straight people saw of gay marriage—-the more pictures in the paper, the more court battles won—-the more, well, mundane it seemed and the energy to resist it is draining.  I realize it probably doesn’t seem like that in California right now, but demographically the right is losing the battle for hearts and minds by a war of attrition as the people who are panicked by gay marriage are being replaced by a generation that doesn’t see it as a big deal.  I think that goes a long way to explain why Democrats like Obama are talking out of both sides of their mouths about this—-not supporting gay marriage but dismissing any and all attempts to stop it, and offering “civil unions” as something of a stopgap measure—-because they see a day when the controversy over this will seem as baffling as the controversy of the MLK holiday was to me.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:53 AM • (129) Comments

There’s another image of the sixties that is disturbing to a lot of older voters - the “race riots” of the 60s in places like Detroit.

And thats why the McCain campaign hasnt hushed up those people who have said “The blacks will riot - there will be blood in the streets!”

Comment #1: Broce  on  11/03  at  12:02 PM

This will be the last election where we hear about the 60s. The GOP will probably nominate Jindal next time (born in the early 70s), and Obama was in kindergarten during the Tet Offensive.

And for that, we can all be glad.

Comment #2: Ben D.  on  11/03  at  12:04 PM

We’re still fighting the Civil War.

I remember visiting a nursing home I was refinancing in the early 90s.  Some of the older of the old folks there had parents who had fought in the Civil War.  I was amazed to be at a table with two sweet residents who suddenly turned viciously on each other with a “My daddy had to teach yours a lesson” and “Damn Yankee!”

I was utterly bemused and a bit horrified to see the Civil War so alive and well over a 100 years from its ‘end’.

But that Battle Flag still flies…and it’s a “War of Northern Aggression” begun by the South taking the first shot.

Barack will not end racism with his presidency.  But when the children born after Tuesday have grandchildren, we will be much much closer to the end.

Comment #3: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/03  at  12:08 PM

Broce, agreed.  In fact, I would say they’re going to great lengths to liken him to MLK and stoke anger over that.  The cult of personality accusations sound to my ears like the justifications people had for resisting the MLK holiday.  Which I do remember after my friend stayed home and I started asking around about why we don’t celebrate it.  No one would come out and say it, but they would dismiss MLK’s importance and suggest that people were silly for honoring him so much.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/03  at  12:11 PM

The 60s won’t last as long as the Civil War for the simple fact not as many Americans died in the 1960s as in the 1860s, and the actual war we were fighting wasn’t on our soil.

Comment #5: Ben D.  on  11/03  at  12:11 PM

“The Norm Coleman campaign in Minnesota is mainly alive because they’ve been blanketing the airwaves with ads that suggest that Al Franken perhaps is a little soft on the issue of keeping women chained to the stove and pregnant.”

That’s a complete lie.  I watched 10 hours of tv yesterday because of the NFL.  I saw ZERO negative ads from Norm Coleman and I have never seen an ad about women’s issues from him in this campaign.  Franken, on the other hand, had nothing but negative false ads all day and he received a D- from the local tv station here that rates the overall body of political ads by each candidate for truth.  Coleman also got the endorsement of the Star Tribune, one of the most liberal papers in the country.

Comment #6: Dr T  on  11/03  at  12:12 PM

Anecdote /= data, Dr T.  Data says anti-choice ads are all over the radio.  But feel free to try to threadjack and distract from the fact that most of this post is about how the McCain campaign is running a campaign that not-too-subtly demonizes civil rights workers from the 60s all over again.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/03  at  12:15 PM

Caren’s right, and I think I had forgotten just how right until I tied into it with a trio of old fraternity brothers (yeah, don’t ask) on Facebook over the weekend. We’re all southern, all pretty much rural, and the three of them are varying degrees of southern racist. (We’re all rednecks as well, though I’ve washed a fair amount of mine off.) And in the end, their objections to Obama came down to “the blacks are taking over.” Didn’t matter if we were talking about tax policy or the old lie about Obama not respecting the flag or the new one about how Obama’s plan to expand the Peace Corps and Americorps is a plot to create his own private army. In the end, it always came down to race.

Those guys are unreachable, but their kids and grandkids, as Caren pointed out, aren’t. And fortunately, they’re a dying breed, at least as far as electoral power is concerned. This election may be a game-changer, not just because of Obama, but because it kills the power of white supremacy for a while.

Comment #8: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  11/03  at  12:16 PM

Also, the boomers can argue all the want about Woodstock vs. Vietnam in the nursing homes, but Gen X will be fully in power by the end of the next decade.

Comment #9: Ben D.  on  11/03  at  12:16 PM

Yeah, I’m a much bigger supporter of the “talking out of both sides of one’s mouth” school of gay marriage advocacy when it comes to politicians who otherwise represent my interests. Certainly not the “say one thing, do another” school, like Bill Clinton, who signed DOMA into law (that was just crazy talk). But the Obama/Hillary Clinton/John Kerry school seems a little more enlightened, to me. I just can’t get as exercised about Obama’s non-vocal support of my potential marriage (I’m gay and partnered) as I can about looking forward to the day when it won’t matter, because everyone will have healthcare and mortgage purveyors won’t be able to discriminate quite so openly against my access to liberty and property.

Comment #10: serena kitt  on  11/03  at  12:26 PM

I think this underlying culture war also explains why the Right has seemed completely impervious to any calls to make things better or at least more stable for their children. The 60s were not only a watershed moment for minority rights, but it was also a generational battle wherein the snotty nosed kids tried to usurp their betters. That same attitude was instilled in the Right’s more youthful warriors of being on the side of the adults against the kids and I suspect is at the heart of all the wish-fulfillment to bring down those kids once and for all. For example, the Rapture, is the embodiment of the idea that you kids won’t be able to enjoy your “free” world, because the Big Sky Daddy was right and on the side of the old folks and the previous power. Same diff occurred before in the notion of nuclear Armageddon.

However, yeah, it’s only a matter of time. The number of people who learned the 60s as history is entering its third generation. However, I doubt it will stop anything. The shift will just move up. Look to see the 90s or possibly these upcoming 10s become the next “Culture War” excuse.

Comment #11: Cerberus  on  11/03  at  12:26 PM

I agree with Ben’s comment. This isn’t just about Obama being a black man althought that is a huge part of it. This is a generational change. It is time now for my generation (4 years younger than Barack) to take over this country. My grandparents’ and parents’ time is over. The republicans haven’t realized this yet. They have no new blood coming in.

Also, in reference to Prop 8 here in California, in twenty years, kids will be wondering what all the fuss was about. Just like the kids today talking about the civil rights movement in the 60’s.

Comment #12: Mark  on  11/03  at  12:33 PM

Fighting over the 1990s? The 90s were pretty damn tranquil and boring all things considered. Especially compared to the decade following.

Comment #13: Ben D.  on  11/03  at  12:38 PM

The fundamentalist movement, I think, is an attempt to codify and pass on the resentments of the Nixon generation.  But on the race issue, I’m not so sure it’s going to be effective.  Even young fundies seem less interested in racism than the older generations.  And while they may be reactionary about sex, they don’t seem as hostile to female leadership.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/03  at  12:41 PM

Also, the boomers can argue all the want about Woodstock vs. Vietnam in the nursing homes, but Gen X will be fully in power by the end of the next decade

Hmmm. The population bubbles on both ends of the Xers doesn’t favor this scenario. Unless, you’re one of those folks who thinks Me and Barack are actually “More X Than Boom.”

Comment #15: Roxanne  on  11/03  at  12:43 PM

Gen X will never be in power, really.  I have a strong suspicion that we’ll see younger Boomers own the White House until Gen Y takes over.

But really, the Boomers and the generation before that were the bad kids that haunt the dreams of hippie haters.  They were also the hippie haters.  They were the black kids and white allies who marched in civil rights marches, but they were also the groups of white kids who beat them up.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/03  at  12:47 PM

Roxanne—

I’d say you’re not boomers. If you were learning to read during Vietnam, you’re closer to X. I never found that cut off to be very clear, though.

The cutoff between Millenials (my generation) and X is much more clear cut. Namely, can you remember a time before home computers were as commonplace as TVs?

I can’t, and I can only VERY vaguely remember a time before email.

Comment #17: Ben D.  on  11/03  at  12:48 PM

Honestly, one of the big reasons I became an Obama supporter was that he was the one Democrat who couldn’t be tarred with Vietnam and the 1960s.  Early in the primary campaign, McCain was already running ads about Hillary giving an earmark to New York for a Woodstock museum, with a Photoshopped picture of her in 1960s scarf and peace sign face paint, so he tipped his hand early that with Hillary as the candidate, it was going to be Who Did What in the 1960s? all over again.

That’s part of what drives his opponents crazy.  Obama’s not part of the civil rights establishment like Jesse Jackson, so they can’t tie him to that.  He was a kid when Vietnam ended, so there was no question of whether he went or was a draft dodger.  They keep trying to tie him to Bill Ayers, but the fact remains that Obama was 8 when Ayers was committing his crimes and 19 when Dohrn turned herself in to the police at Ayers’ urging.  Rev. Wright reminds older people of the civil rights movement, but he doesn’t press the same buttons for people who are under 45 or so.

Comment #18: Mnemosyne  on  11/03  at  12:58 PM

That’s a complete lie.  I watched 10 hours of tv yesterday because of the NFL.  I saw ZERO negative ads from Norm Coleman and I have never seen an ad about women’s issues from him in this campaign.

Dr. T, do you even realize that campaigns make ad buys based on the expected audience?  Based on what I hear, I’d think that the Yes on 8 people here in California have given up, because none of the radio or TV shows that I watch have commercials for Yes on 8, only No on 8.

Coleman’s not going to run his negative ads in front of a huge mixed audience watching the NFL.  He’s going to put them where the people he thinks will be persuaded by them will see them.  I’m guessing that 10 minutes listening to talk radio would give you the whole crop of negative ads from Coleman.

Comment #19: Mnemosyne  on  11/03  at  01:02 PM

Yeah, there’s definitely a generational shift going on.  I first realized how wide the gap was during the primaries.  When Clinton was filmed doing boilermakers in a bar, along with that flat midwestern accent and her particular sartorial, um, “style,” it absolutely signaled old-school blue collar union campaign.  But clearly people who are young enough not to have been around when the union movement was strong and when blue collar workers could build a middle-class life didn’t recognize what they were looking at and consequently were puzzled by it. 

I’m in my 50s and strongly identify with the old labor movement, but I have to say that I’m excited by this generational shift and starting to feel hopeful about the next decade or two.

Comment #20: Melinda  on  11/03  at  01:02 PM

Obama is the candidate and not Hillary because the 60s are OVER.  So ... very ... over.

Didn’t the reichwing get the memo? Even then?  Or are they just a little slow.

Comment #21: Ms Kate  on  11/03  at  01:25 PM

But Republicans hang in by re-fighting the 60s.  (And early 70s.)

To be fair, it’s less a GOP phenomenon than a Boomer phenomenon. For every 60-year-old Republican that talks about the “betrayal of American values” in the ‘60s, there’s a 60-year-old Democrat rhapsodising about “The Movement, ma-a-an.” Just look at the so-called left-wing PUMAs to see where that lands people.

The obsession with identity politics, the approach of confrontation for confrontation’s sake, the rule of style over substance, the false nostalgia: all of it has damaged the national discourse horribly for the past 30 years, and I’m afraid that Boomer rot was spread across the political landscape.

Fortunately, generational demographics grind away, and for the first time Boomer and Silent voters have been counter-balanced by Xers and Millenials who don’t give a hang about the ‘60s, Vietnam, or the mythical 1950s. Obama tapped into this reaction in his speech on race, when he positioned Rev. Wright (and, by extension, Sharpton and Jesse Jackson) as part of the American left’s past. Although the Boomer-dominated MSM would prefer to sweep it under the rug, the generational shift in power is the real story of the 2008 election.

Gen X will never be in power, really.  I have a strong suspicion that we’ll see younger Boomers own the White House until Gen Y takes over.

According to Strauss and Howe’s compelling argument about American generational cycles, this is normal and to be expected. The Xers (and semi-Xers like Obama) will act as pragmatic, no-BS advisors to the young Millenials, just as the Lost Generation of the 20s and 30s matured into the field-grade officers and senior managers who ran the day-to-day details of the “Greatest Generation’s” crisis and war—no gloryn for the Lost and the Xers, but satisfaction in a job well done. Our crisis and war will be different, of course, but the right people are in place to moderate the excessive tendencies of the Boomers.

About bloody time.

Comment #22: Gracchus  on  11/03  at  01:26 PM

I think Dr T is missing the depth of the desperation: the GOP is almost as financially bankrupt as it is morally bankrupt! The negative ads from the GOP are being targeted almost entirely toward their own base out of fear that their own people will stay home tomorrow.  I have noticed that this is particuarly true in places where Obama has a clear lead, but there are embattled republican incumbents who could go down with the ship.

Comment #23: Ms Kate  on  11/03  at  01:29 PM

Tbogg has a great post along these same lines.  He’s old enough to remember hearing about the murder of James Chaney, Andrew Goodman and Michael Schwermer on the radio.

Comment #24: Mnemosyne  on  11/03  at  01:30 PM

The cutoff between Millenials (my generation) and X is much more clear cut. Namely, can you remember a time before home computers were as commonplace as TVs?
I can’t, and I can only VERY vaguely remember a time before email.

Thanks for making me feel old at 31.

But I agree with Amanda about Xers never being a really significant force politically. There just aren’t enough of us, for one thing, and the snark and disengagement that defined us don’t lend themselves to becoming a real political force. Sure, some individuals will become prominent politically, but it’s going to be the Millenials or Gen Y or whatever that will really make a mark.

Comment #25: chingona  on  11/03  at  01:32 PM

The generational issue is an interesting one. I just turned 50, and have something in common with both the boomers who came before and the generation after mine.

Datewise, Obama and I get lumped into the boomers, but I dont think that’s really accurate. We were both too young to be involved in the social changes and protests of the 60s, and too old to really be Gen X. I think we bring a different perspective than both of those generations to the table, but if Obama wins tomorrow, I think he’ll be our only “Generation Jones” (which is what the demographers now call us) president. I think we tend to understand the boomer perspective, and the Gen X perspective without really being a part of either.

I sit between second and third wave feminism as well, and don’t really fit into either.

Comment #26: Broce  on  11/03  at  01:33 PM

Just sayin’, but some of us youngins DO give a hang about the old labor movement, the 60s/70s, etc.  Man, I wish I could get a bunch of women together in my living room to talk about what ails us and look at our cervixes or something.

Comment #27: rowmyboat  on  11/03  at  01:34 PM

chingona—

I’m 24 and had an “I’m feeling old” moment when my ne\phew (who is 6) asked what a cartridge is. As in, video game cartridge.

Comment #28: Ben D.  on  11/03  at  01:43 PM

Here’s an example of Coleman’s distortion of Franken in his ads.  http://tpzoo.wordpress.com/2008/10/11/coleman-campaign-ad-against-al-franken-plain-dishonesty/

Comment #29: G Porgy  on  11/03  at  01:48 PM

I’m not at all sure the 60s are over, mostly because so many pivotal decades seem to be at least as strong in the minds of the children of those who lived through them as in the minds of the protagonists themselves. The people who lived through the 60s saw all the different sides of the decade, and then for the most part went on to have lives. But the younger generation of white race warriors can talk about riots and black-power revanchism without having any historical baggage—i.e. facts—to encumber their thinking.

Comment #30: paul  on  11/03  at  01:52 PM

Just sayin’, but some of us youngins DO give a hang about the old labor movement, the 60s/70s, etc.

Oh, as someone who went to the trouble of getting an advanced degree in history, I do acknowledge the relevance of those things (not to mention things that are a lot older). But as an Xer I also understand that they can only inform what has to happen going forward, rather than dictating and dominating the process as the Boomers would prefer.

Americans are very fortunate that, as we enter a time of extreme crisis in the world, we weren’t stuck with a choice between an out-of-touch Silent (McCain) and a self-satisfied and needlessly divisive Boomer (Hillary). And we can thank the Internet (an invention of Silent and Boomer geeks, I won’t hesitate to add) for playing a large part in making that happen.

Comment #31: Gracchus  on  11/03  at  01:59 PM

An interesting compendium of dirty tricks.

Comment #32: togolosh  on  11/03  at  02:00 PM

Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t recall conservatives forcing gay rights organizations to make marriage a major priority. My perception was that the gay rights movement changed focus because of reaction to AIDS. There was so much new fear the movement almost completely divorced itself from sexual liberation. That is, for the rights movement to continue forward the path of least resistance was proving “we’re just like you.” There was certainly enough fear and backlash over the concept of sexual liberation within the gay community to fuel this shift, too.

I also think gay rights orgs decided marriage was a good path from a legal perspective. Rather than continue to chip away and build rights one at a time, marriage would bring with it many of those—killing many birds with one stone. Conservatives recognized this, no doubt when the marriage issue was still in the fight-for-civil-unions phase, and then made it a huge issue on their side. And I don’t disagree that it was to our benefit but I don’t think conservatives initiated the marriage issue.

Sometimes I don’t think people realize just how much AIDS changed the politics of gays and our rights movement. There was a rightward shift. Maybe that’s hard to see when a movement’s politics are generally perceived to be so far to the left (not that I think civil rights are radical left territory by we’re talking about perceptions, not reality).

Comment #33: seventwentyfour  on  11/03  at  02:00 PM

Within the next 3 years, Gen X will come to own academic departments in US colleges and universities for the next 30 years. (Look at any department: there’s a few old dudes on the verge of retirement, then a bunch of recent hires all in the mid-to-late 30s or early 40s)

But that’s about all we Xers are likely to control without question.


I like to think of Obama as post-boomer. It’s his biggest appeal to me. (I was ex utero for the last 8 mos. of the 60s. The heart of genX I define as anyone born ‘67-‘73. I do remember a time before PCs).

Comment #34: wapsie  on  11/03  at  02:02 PM

Ben, you called yourself a millenial, but I’m the same age and I can remember a time without computers, so wouldn’t that put me as a late Xer?

Meh, generational stuff is almost worse than race or gender stuff: true, there can be trends, but for individual people its not terribly useful.

Comment #35: Antigone  on  11/03  at  02:03 PM

Wait: Obama is BLACK?!  If only I’d known that before I’d sent in my absentee ballot!!!!

On a more serious note, the comments about the ineffectiveness of red- and race-baiting ring true.  My first political-ish memory is Bill Clinton’s inauguration in January 93, when I was 6.  So whenever the right starts dropping “socialist” and “commie”, it doesn’t resonate with me naturally.  I understand, on an intellectual level, but since I didn’t grow up during the Cold War it has no emotional power over me.  The same is true for terms with racial undertones (“uppity” being the best example).  I know the term has a racist history, but I never lived it so it doesn’t provoke an emotional reaction from me.  You’d be surprised how many of my friends are completely unaware of this and express genuine shock that the term has racist undertones.

Comment #36: themann1086  on  11/03  at  02:11 PM

Antigone—

It could be my family (or general area) was more up to date with technology. My family always had a computer since Ive been alive. I could do DOS command prompt stuff when I was learning to read.

Dunno, but I think you’re probably right about trends vs. individual people. Especially people on the cusp.

Comment #37: Ben D.  on  11/03  at  02:15 PM

But do you remember a time without video games then?

A lot of people had an Atari or NES before a home computer, but its still representative of the big technology shift.

Comment #38: Ben D.  on  11/03  at  02:16 PM

Let’s not forget that John McCain actively opposed the Martin Luther King Day holiday over a period of ten years.

Some Fun Facts here.

Comment #39: BABH  on  11/03  at  02:19 PM

My apartment complex is mostly black and Latino and the ages skew kinda older.  I can’t believe, though, how many people who grew up in the 60s and know what’s at stake, still aren’t voting.  As part of my mission to make Mississippi blue (or at least purple), I’m borrowing a van and calling in the favor I’m owed from one of the guys at the local Hardee’s. 

Fair deal, right?

Breakfast for voting.  Even if it’s only a handful of people that bite, it’s still a few more middle fingers going up to Republicans and the politics of hate and fear.  I’m also getting the impression that someone’s been trying to scare or intimidate my Latino neighbors, but I’m not sure what to do about that other than fight it.

Comment #40: Spooky Skeptic  on  11/03  at  02:24 PM

Being an older Gen Xer, I realize that there are Boomers who will outlive me. I will never escape them. This annoys me just a little bit, mostly because of what we’re talking about here - the never ending discussion of the 60s. To me, the sixties were about the great taste of paste and Speed Racer reruns on black and white TV. It’s not that the politics didn’t matter, but they didn’t freeze in time at Chicago, 1968. I think the right is much more guilty about this, but maybe that’s just because sixties leftists don’t get the kind of TV time their right wing contemporaries do.

And who’s this Dr. T person? I used to post way back when under that moniker. How embarrassing.

Comment #41: Theron  on  11/03  at  02:27 PM

I’m confused. 

I’m pretty sure I’m not Gen X, but I understood my younger brother (born in 1982) to be an almost-millenial (HS class or 2000), whereas my husband and I (born in 1980) weren’t.  My husband was on the bleeding edge of technilogical advancement, on the internet before it was the internet, etc.  Whereas my family had a borrowed Apple IIE to play Oregon Trail and type reports around the time I started middle school.  Both of us remember, to varying degrees, events of Reagan’s presidency and the age before widespread computer use, but our parents are practically textbook Boomers…do we have a group to belong to?

Comment #42: lonespark  on  11/03  at  02:31 PM

“Can you really believe we’re going to elect a black President?  Did I mention that he’s BLACK?!”

That reminds me of a running joke over at the late Steve Gilliard‘s blog. Steve, like most Xers, didn’t make a Boomer-scale issue of his race—he was a writer and history buff first and foremost, and that was that how he defined and identified himself. The Internet, as it usually does, obscured the physical identity behind the words, even though they were informed by a very self-aware African-American sensibility.

However, once in a while Steve’s race would come up explicitly in passing (he didn’t go to great lengths to hide who he was, either). And inevitably, a newcomer or lurker (who was usually over 45) would comment in surprise and puzzlement: “Wait, Steve is black?!” After a while, the regulars started posting that comment pre-emptively—always got a laugh from me.

I wish Steve was still around to see the Obama campaign play out to its conclusion—not because he was African-American or even a Democratic Party stalwart, but because he was a Fighting Liberal. He’s very much in my thoughts at the moment.

Comment #43: Gracchus  on  11/03  at  02:31 PM

lonespark—

You are whoever you identify with more at that point. My older sister is in the same boat.

Comment #44: Ben D.  on  11/03  at  02:33 PM

They’ve ushered in an economic crisis, the worst since the Great Depression.

With Democratic help. Let’s never forget Glass-Steagall would have been impossible without Clinton and other deregulation Dems. If we forget some of those responsible we’ll have more economic clusterfucks.

Comment #45: Lesly  on  11/03  at  02:38 PM

And who’s this Dr. T person?

Judging by his comments since at least last Wednesday (when I started keeping track for my own amusement), he’s apparently someone who revels in being consistently and factually wrong and indulging in logical fallacies.

And judging by his comment here, it looks like he’s going for a losing streak. Go, go Dr T!

Comment #46: Gracchus  on  11/03  at  02:39 PM

My perception was that the gay rights movement changed focus because of reaction to AIDS. There was so much new fear the movement almost completely divorced itself from sexual liberation.

It was partly that, but even though I was a kid (jr. high-high school) I remember the heartrending stories of people who’d been with their partner for 20 years being thrown out of their partner’s hospital room or losing their home because it was in their partner’s name.  Some people weren’t allowed to attend their partner’s funeral or even know where he was buried.

When you’re young and think you can live forever, things like that don’t seem very important, but once men started dying in large numbers, it focused the thinking of a lot of people.  Plus they were stories that played very well in the larger society and really helped to normalize being gay for a lot of people.

Comment #47: Mnemosyne  on  11/03  at  02:43 PM

Let’s never forget Glass-Steagall would have been impossible without Clinton and other deregulation Dems. If we forget some of those responsible we’ll have more economic clusterfucks.

Technically it’s the Republican-authored repeal of Glass-Steagall you’re discussing, but you’re quite correct. Clinton tried to balance out Gramm’s bill by adding provisions aimed at moderating the trend toward racial red-lining, but that doesn’t excuse allowing such an irresponsible piece of legislation to pass. With the slow passing of Boomer dominance of the Democratic Party, I also hope to see the passing of the DLC’s influence.

Comment #48: Gracchus  on  11/03  at  02:45 PM

Well, my white grandkids, 18 and 21, voted for Obama.  Neither see race as a factor; I don’t think their parents (40ish) will vote at all.  Of course, it helped having a grandma who toiled in the vineyards, so to speak, back in the day. who advised them about the best candidate for the job.  But I think their generation is far less hung up about race, sex or anything else than their parents or grandparents were.  And their friends are the same way.  Interracial and same sex dating among their generation is often seen, and this is NC, for chrissakes.

Comment #49: pacifem  on  11/03  at  02:49 PM

One of the oldest arguments in human existence. Younger ones think the older ones suck.
Gen Y’s kids will hate them too. Unpredictable outcomes in Western democracies due to migrational demographics.

Comment #50: Descartes  on  11/03  at  02:58 PM

The cutoff between Millenials (my generation) and X is much more clear cut. Namely, can you remember a time before home computers were as commonplace as TVs?

Good point.  I remember back about 30 years ago when I was 10 or 11 or so, and I’d just gone to an open day with my mum and had a play on a mainframe (*).  I remember trying to explain to her that the big thing was going to be some kind of network where they would talk to each other, and that I really wanted to be one of the people working on this.  Smart thinking, apart from the assumption that it would be difficult and would be some kind of elitist job…

My mother just rolled her eyes and thought I was just being childish again.

(*) Yes, kiddies, back then sitting at a dumb terminal and typing into a Unix system with less brains than your mobile phone was *exciting*...

Comment #51: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/03  at  03:00 PM

I remember back about 30 years ago

That’s a sure sign that you’re not a Millenial.

Comment #52: pepito  on  11/03  at  03:02 PM

Um, guys, I was was born in 1952, smack in the middle of the Boom.  I am 56 years old and am by no means ready for a nursing home or to cede the political arena to you youngsters. (Also, get off my lawn.) It startles me to realize that Obama is younger than I am, but it isn’t a problem for me except in reminding me of my increasing years.  Those years may be increasing, but along with them so are my commitment to working for change and social progress.  I am more politically involved and aware now than at any time in my life.  So please stop talking like I’m ready for the geriatric ward.  Jeez—56 is not ancient.  I hope you all remember this when you get to your 50s and are properly embarrassed.

MKK

Comment #53: Mary Kay  on  11/03  at  03:07 PM

It does make you wonder if we’d had computers back in the 60s instead of mimeograph machines (I had one of those in my kitchen) how much more widespread the word would have been about civil rights, the anti-war movement, women’s movement, etc. and being able to present cogent arguments directly to people instead of the MSM showing riots on TV which were never the norm but usually were the product of provacateurs and cops behaving badly.

Of course, I haven’t seen the marches and large demostrations we had back then materialize in the last 8 years, either.  And being arrested was just another day in the park usually.

Comment #54: pacifem  on  11/03  at  03:07 PM

Pacifem—

You make a good point. Blogging and networking is mightier than protesting in terms of bringing about political change now. Look how quickly people got cash to Michelle “McCarthy” Bachman’s opponent.

Protesting in person with picket signs is 20th Century, AFAIC.

Comment #55: Ben D.  on  11/03  at  03:10 PM

When I picked up my son at a party yesterday, I noted that my husband and the father of one of the other boys there were up in New Hampshire canvassing for Obama.  Several people noted that they already had been or were taking time from work to do so later, or made calls, etc.

Think of it as a massive movement, somewhat unbound by time and place.

Comment #56: Ms Kate  on  11/03  at  03:14 PM

Row, we can acknowledge the importance of history, but I warn against nostalgia.  The truth of the matter is 70s-style feminism really doesn’t make sense today.  In part, it’s because they won so many battles.  Like I was reading a radical feminist reader the other day, and the famous essay “The Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm”, and I have to say that it read like the quaint relic it is.  It was very important.  But the argument won.  Even Joe Bob The Two-Bit Chauvinist knows where the clitoris is, knows that women don’t come from vaginal stimulation, and condescends to put his hand or even tongue down there.  Things change, and one thing that’s changed is a lot of men have grown up with feminism and really do get it.  We’re just not fighting the same battles.  That doesn’t mean we don’t have battles, but we won’t be effective if we don’t acknowledge reality.

The biggest thing that nostalgia for the movement era seems to give us is a love of unnecessary inter cine warfare, where everyone is battling to be the purest leftist, the most against sexism or racism, etc.  Radical feminists in the 70s had battles where women with Catholic backgrounds waged war on those with Jewish backgrounds, for reasons that are frankly stupid as could be.  People gave in repeatedly to the temptation to count up their oppressions and declare themselves the winner.  And romanticizing that history, I think, is what causes people on the blogs to do that now.

Comment #57: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/03  at  03:19 PM

I LOVE love love that Obama was just a kid in the 60’s. Someone was listing a bunch of famous politicians the other day, and ended with, “My God, it really IS the same dozen people who have been fucking up our country for the last forty years.” It is so very nice to see a candidate who’s reacting to events that have, you know, happened in *my lifetime* instead of being stuck back when my dad was a teenager and my mom was playing with paper dolls. It’s one of the reasons I supported Obama in the primary, even though Clinton would have made a decent president. (Part of the reason there was so much anger and stress between the two camps & their followers, I think, was that not only did you have the issues of race and gender, but also generation. God, I am so glad the primaries are behind us.)

On the other hand, it sends chills up my spine to remember that my dad was one of the original hippies, and got to see Dr. King live in person. Like Amanda says, all that stuff comes from the pages of history books, for me—and yet, some of the most important people in my life lived through it—and ended up on different sides of the big 60’s split, too, since some of my dad’s siblings went back to supporting the status quo after having been youthful radicals.

Meanwhile, I too was born in 1980 and remember the end of the Reagan administration and a time before personal computers. On the other hand, I grew up without TV (our social group Didn’t Do That), so my cultural awareness doesn’t map exactly to Gen X either.

Comment #58: Nenya  on  11/03  at  03:20 PM

Yes, working the computer is much better in many ways.  Although my 40-something son who is basically a construction worker doesn’t understand how I can stay on the computer so much, even though I’ve always worked in offices and exposed to computers in their various forms since 1968.  Just the difference between someone who was a paper pusher with someone who works with his hands building stuff, I guess.  Believe it or not, there are a lot of “castes” among working people, even in various regions, and that colors their politics as well—Reagan had a reason for breaking up unions, you know, and office workers in the south will never be unionized, just as the trades and mills weren’t.

Comment #59: pacifem  on  11/03  at  03:24 PM

Uh, I think Obama’s got to be soundly Generation X. Douglas Coupland was born in 1961. Was he not speaking about his own cohort? Is Generation X getting such a raw deal that they are taking our name away and giving it to the children of younger boomers?

I thought the vanguard of Generation X was defined as those who were 18-29 n 1990. That puts Obama at the leading edge and me toward the younger side of this group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X

Comment #60: Bacopa  on  11/03  at  03:27 PM

Oh, and Mary Kay—please don’t feel ancient! :D My best friend/adopted big sis is also in her 50’s (one of those people programming mainframe computers in the 70’s in fact), and I would never say that people her age (or my parents’ age) are not relevant. I guess, though, that you’re the “grownups” now—your parents’ generation isn’t.

Comment #61: Nenya  on  11/03  at  03:28 PM

Mary Kay, I hope no one is bashing anyone or saying they can’t be forward thinking.  In fact, I point to people like you and point out that the supposed inevitable hardening of middle age is not at all inevitable, and is just a cultural fallacy used to defend racism and sexism.  But it is true that certain dog whistles only make sense to people who heard them the first time around or know about the history.

It’s a complex issue.  A lot of older people “think young”, i.e. desire to be thoughtful and engage in a changing world so they don’t get left behind.  As I’m getting into my 30s, I’m beginning to feel the pressure to be stuck in my youth and I try to get past it, willing myself to engage new technologies and new music especially.  But a lot of younger people “think old”, i.e. are nostalgic for a past that they didn’t even get to experience.  Young culture warriors and, unfortunately, some young leftists have this nostalgia and don’t stop to think about how society sometimes moves on for good reasons.

Comment #62: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/03  at  03:29 PM

When you’re young and think you can live forever, things like that don’t seem very important, but once men started dying in large numbers, it focused the thinking of a lot of people.  Plus they were stories that played very well in the larger society and really helped to normalize being gay for a lot of people.

Agreed that it refocused the movement. It’s interesting that ideas like the movement had little focus, and words like “normalize” (no matter the context unfortunately, that word can be quite the hot button), can fire up conversations among my gay friends. I read some people wondering why gays aren’t out against Prop 8 in even larger numbers and one part (of many of course) of that has to do with this internal tension—the battle over assimilation and there are plenty, aging and so less influential now, who feel the movement was hijacked by people who demonized other gays who didn’t buy into a new more prudish sexual veneer. The idea that it is a veneer is a big part of this particular tension.

Comment #63: seventwentyfour  on  11/03  at  03:34 PM

Like Amanda says, all that stuff comes from the pages of history books, for me—and yet, some of the most important people in my life lived through it

Of late, I’ve had a lot of questions for my mother (who is 74) about the politics of the late 1940’s through the early 1960s. I read a biography of Truman which got me thinking, as did all of the television stuff about the Cuban Missile Crisis which was on last month.

People older than us are a very valuable source of information about history. What we think of as history is life to them.

Now, my 21 year old son asks me questions about the 1970s and 1980s. What he’s only read about in books was my youth.

Ask your folks all those questions. You’d be amazed what you learn not only about history in general, but how much of it has some relevance or link to what’s happening today.

Comment #64: Broce  on  11/03  at  03:35 PM

Um, we had computers back in the 1960s.  And they were networked (but not internetworked).  I remember my dad explaining the difference between packet-switched and circuit-switched networks when I was in high school in the early ‘70s.

Anyway, Amanda, when you talk about Jewish feminists vs Catholic feminists in the ‘70s you’re talking about abortion rights, which is not “stupid as could be.”  Also, it’s necessarily the case that as time passes ideas become refined, and in the 1970s the women’s movement was grappling with some pretty huge issues.  Understanding and analysis has improved with time but if someone hadn’t been running around arguing from crudely-understood positions 35 years ago your fabulously subtle, nuanced arguments today and your incisive understanding of the issues wouldn’t have any groundwork underneath them.

MORE DISMISSIVENESS, PLEASE.

Comment #65: Melinda  on  11/03  at  03:35 PM

I suspect white kids that grow up after we have a black President will find the hysteria that is racism even more baffling.

This is actually something that kind of worries me.  All other things equal, yes, obviously it’s great for people to come more and more to think of racism as being an alien and bizarre way of thinking…but all other things are never equal, and I think caution and care are needed to avoid letting that otherwise positive development push the very real and structurally embedded historical racism of this country into the background and make it invisible.

Comment #66: smadin  on  11/03  at  03:36 PM

When Generation X dominates politics, we’ll make everyone re-fight the culture wars.  Forget who did what in 1968.  It’s all about who did what in 1989.

“How much don’t we know about Liberal Joe Shmoe?  He supported federal funding for Robert Mapplethorpe.  While English professors moved to replace Shakespeare with Toni Morrison, he stood by and did nothing.  Shmoe took courses on Deconstruction, including articles by Paul de Man, who collaborated with the Nazis.  I’m Tim Jones, and I approved this message because I’ll protect the great works of the Western canon.”

Comment #67: FlipYrWhig  on  11/03  at  03:37 PM

My old neighborhood was full of Vietnam Vets and other boomers who constantly argued about the ‘60s legacy.  What was more interesting was seeing how those vets were completely split on that legacy themselves….and argued amongst themselves. 

The cutoff between Millenials (my generation) and X is much more clear cut. Namely, can you remember a time before home computers were as commonplace as TVs?

I can’t, and I can only VERY vaguely remember a time before email.

I can. 

Before 1996 or so….computer ownership was the domain of the socio-economically privileged and/or the hardcore techie set.  The mainstreaming of computers into people’s lives was happening throughout my college years in the mid-late 1990s.  This was the same period when computers became so commodified that average consumers had not qualms about tossing old computers with the trash….something I didn’t start seeing until 2001. 

One of the first things I and several friends who TA CS classes/CS majors noticed about the difference between proficient Gen X computer users and their millennial counterparts is:

1. Most millennial are horrified when I tell them stories of using a 2400 baud modem (2.4 k/sec) to do 12-20 hour downloads of 12-20 MB files through a terminal application using X and Z modem protocols.  Hey…that modem came with my computer….and 14.4 modems retailed for over $100 and 28.8 modems over $280 back then. 

2. The vast majority of millenials are far less comfortable with the command-line interface common in DOS or various unices and are less willing to experiment/learn on their own compared with their older counterparts.  Some of those CS TAs had to start holding tutorial sessions on navigating the command-line interface for students who grew up exclusively with the Windows graphical user interface.

Comment #68: exholt  on  11/03  at  03:40 PM

Uh, I think Obama’s got to be soundly Generation X.

The babyboom generation is generally described as children born 1946-1964. There are a cohort of us who are sometimes considered Generation Jones. Both Obama and I (born in 1958) would fall into that. We are neither fish nor fowl and often overlooked because there’s so many boomers, and so many Xers and so few of us. But we’re out here. And we dont, as I noted above, see the world exactly in the same way either Xers or Boomers do.

My older sister is Mary Kay’s age, and she’s definitely a boomer. But I was 10 when Woodstock happened, and the Chicago convention in 1968 took place the summer before I turned 10. I’m not a boomer.

But I’m definitely not X either. I’m too old (as many of them have been quick to point out to me this year - like Mary Kay, I’ve definitely been made to feel irrelevant).

Comment #69: Broce  on  11/03  at  03:40 PM

It’s as good a argument as any as to why we can’t delay running racial minorities, gay men and women (of all sexual orientations) in elections because of electability issues, because the sooner the public gets used to the idea, the easier this is going to be on everyone.

Which is why it’s been good for Obama that this election has dragged on so long. 

You’d think that the entire racist vote would default to McCain, but a lot of those people are managing to rise above their worst instincts (and how wonderful is that?!!). However, they needed some time to get to that point. (I think a lot of undecideds come from this crowd.)

Comment #70: Molly, NYC  on  11/03  at  03:40 PM

MORE DISMISSIVENESS, PLEASE.

Sure.

DIE HERETIC!

Happy?

Comment #71: Ms Kate  on  11/03  at  03:47 PM

Melinda, to say they laid groundwork but were not perfect and it’s important to learn from their mistakes is not “dismissive”.  And a lot of that stuff was stupid, and let’s face it, anti-Semitic insults and old stereotypes about Jews and money were trotted out.  What bothers me is that when we adopt a cynical “nothing new under the sun” stance or claim that some generation had the market cornered and that evolution hasn’t really happened to the ideas or tensions of a certain time.  I’m not saying we’re better, but we are different.  And a classic example of something that’s changed so much that it doesn’t even make sense to younger people is the tensions between Catholics and Jews.  We haven’t overcome many of the intertribal tensions, and sadly within my lifetime you saw a brand new set of hostilities rise up between different racial minorities.  But it’s okay to say different, right?  They didn’t slur black people with “gangsta rapper” in the 60s, like they do now.  That was my point—-it’s weird to see McCain harkening back to an era that’s passed instead of using fresher, if still repulsive, race-baiting tactics.

Ask your folks all those questions. You’d be amazed what you learn not only about history in general, but how much of it has some relevance or link to what’s happening today.

I used to pepper my mom with questions as a kid, but it made her uneasy.  Now that I know history from books, I see why.  She did mention she got caught up in a race riot in Long Beach after MLK was killed, but I don’t know to what extent the people in her school and neighborhood rioted. I know she was only marginally involved, basically just hustled home from school and didn’t really have anything to do with it.

Comment #72: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/03  at  03:48 PM

I’m squarely in the middle of Generation X (born 1971, graduated from college during the early 90s recession in 1992). We were early computer adapters, getting an Apple II+ for Christmas 1980, but computers weren’t the center of our lives until the Internet became widespread. Computers in college were just something you used to type papers and write reports, with maybe a spreadsheet or graphing program thrown in. The Internet existed but it was UNIX-only, and you had to learn basic UNIX commands to use it. I tell current college students about this and they look at me like I’m a fossil.

As far as politics goes, my political opinions were shaped by my liberal leading-edge Boomer parents (technically not Boomers: Dad born in 1944, Mom in 1945). My Mom sent me a very emotional e-mail about watching Obama’s nomination, remembering as a child “those poor black children trying to go to high school with that awful governor stopping them”, the Civil Rights era when she was in college, and the turmoil of the late 1960s as a young adult. For whatever it’s worth, both my parents said the late 1960s were a lot scarier than the present-day, with one city after another going up in flames, two major assassinations in four months, and President Richard Fucking Nixon to crown it all.

I think a black man poised to win the presidency has much greater emotional resonance for anyone who lived through the Civil Rights era. I think it’s terrific, but it doesn’t surprise me that Obama’s winning. I also think the fact that Obama’s not a post-Boomer is a *big* part of his appeal, to me. I got so damn tired of getting stereotyped as a lazy Gen-X slacker in my early 20s.

Comment #73: Norsecats  on  11/03  at  03:52 PM

I used to pepper my mom with questions as a kid, but it made her uneasy.  Now that I know history from books, I see why.  She did mention she got caught up in a race riot in Long Beach after MLK was killed, but I don’t know to what extent the people in her school and neighborhood rioted. I know she was only marginally involved, basically just hustled home from school and didn’t really have anything to do with it.

One of the lengthy discussions I had recently with my mother was about the 1960 election. She was a white middle class pagan woman married to a white middle class Protestant, and they lived in greater Boston. They *detested* the Kennedys, and I grew up aware of that (though I remember her crying watching the train bringing RFK’s body home on television), but it was really interesting to hear her talk about that Presidential election and how much the concern over whether a Catholic could be elected mirrored this year’s concern about Obama and race. Only from what she says, it was much more of an issue then than race has been this year.

Comment #74: Broce  on  11/03  at  03:54 PM

For whatever it’s worth, both my parents said the late 1960s were a lot scarier than the present-day, with one city after another going up in flames, two major assassinations in four months, and President Richard Fucking Nixon to crown it all.

My kids were asking why their grandmother was so freaky about the election, and I explained that she had already seen things come to pieces over a short span of time (not that there wasn’t a facade involved before that ...) and was having flashbacks.  Their father is barely old enough to remember this (he’ll be 46 next week), and I was toddling obliviously around in a trailer in a remote community at the time.

Comment #75: Ms Kate  on  11/03  at  03:56 PM

My Mom sent me a very emotional e-mail about watching Obama’s nomination, remembering as a child “those poor black children trying to go to high school with that awful governor stopping them”, the Civil Rights era when she was in college, and the turmoil of the late 1960s as a young adult. For whatever it’s worth, both my parents said the late 1960s were a lot scarier than the present-day, with one city after another going up in flames, two major assassinations in four months, and President Richard Fucking Nixon to crown it all.

Though all of those things happened when I was a child, I’d tend to agree with her. I remember more turmoil and much more fear in the average adult than I see now.

Sometimes I wonder when we all got so complacent. In the 60s people marched in the streets when something was wrong. In the beginning, it was college kids…but as time went on adults joined in the anti war protests. And the Civil Rights movement contained adults right from the start.

I cannot imagine what would get the current populace up off its collective behinds and into the streets the way those things did in the 1960s. For all the failings of the era, I think those who view it nostalgically are thinking at least in part about this difference.

The two easy answers are “The boomers sold out!!” or “The Xers didnt care and are materialistic!” but I dont think those answers are correct, either of them.

Comment #76: Broce  on  11/03  at  03:59 PM

I was born in 1963, and think of myself as a boomer. I’m not thrilled by it, but, one, my father grew up in the depression and fought in WW2 and, two, what happened in the 1960s informed my world view.

Comment #77: dr. giraud  on  11/03  at  04:05 PM

The heart of genX I define as anyone born ‘67-’73.

I would have to disagree as I was born a few years after ‘73, yet I and many others in my age group and a year or two younger identify far more with Gen X than with the millenials. 

One big faultline I’ve observed is in the degree of accepted parental involvement in undergrad and even professional life.  I was shocked to find many millenial undergrads nonchalantly discussing how their classmates or in a few cases….they themselves involved their parents in waking them up for their morning classes, registering for classes, and especially grade disputes with the TAs/Profs. 

Undergrads during my college career felt such matters were their responsibility alone and would never dream of getting their parents involved.

Comment #78: exholt  on  11/03  at  04:09 PM

The superficiality of my understanding of racism has been made apparent to me lately in my confusion that anyone would try and paint Barack Obama as a scary man - my feeling is that he’s so huggable and admirable that it could never work.

Comment #79: Sara Anderson  on  11/03  at  04:11 PM

Things have changed in my lifetime, for sure.  One thing I’ve found interesting is this—-I remember (and remember being appalled) at my class having a debate about whether or not interracial marriage/dating was a good thing.  Again, I naively thought that was settled and that decent people are not bothered by it. But since then, I have to say that something has changed.  That we are about to elect a man with parents of different races and it’s considered completely crankery to get up in arms about it is a dramatic change and really only in about 15 years.

Comment #80: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/03  at  04:13 PM

Undergrads during my college career felt such matters were their responsibility alone and would never dream of getting their parents involved.

I sort of wonder about the parental breakdown here too, generationally. My son is 21. I cannot imagine getting involved in either his job or his college (other than writing the tuition check every semester). I’d like to stay informed about his grades, since I’m paying for it. And I enjoy reading his papers - but he sends them to me *after* he’s submitted them. I couldnt imagine screening them beforehand or arguing about his grades. He’s an *adult.* His education stopped being my business when he turned 18.

Comment #81: Broce  on  11/03  at  04:13 PM

I remember back about 30 years ago when I was 10 or 11 or so, and I’d just gone to an open day with my mum and had a play on a mainframe (*).

I’m about your age, and still remember my excitement over typing to other branch offices using the Telex in my Dad’s office. I would have gone nuts if I got to play on a mainframe—especially one with a CRT.

I’m squarely in the middle of Generation X (born 1971, graduated from college during the early 90s recession in 1992). We were early computer adapters, getting an Apple II+ for Christmas 1980, but computers weren’t the center of our lives until the Internet became widespread.

That was really the important moment for mainstreaming the PC. I used my first home computer (a TRS-80 at my school) in 1981, my parents bought me an Apple //c in 1984, but personal computers (as opposed to mainframes) were still considered the domain of kids. I was on BBSes around the same time, the Internet via proprietary gateways in 1991, and on the public Internet via a grad school account in 1992, but it was still the domain of students and teenage geeks.

‘Round about 1994 (when Internet technologies really took hold with younger people), though, Boomers and younger Silents realised that if they wanted to keep in touch with their kids, they’d need to use e-mail. And that meant bringing a computer into the home, like it or not.

As I’m getting into my 30s, I’m beginning to feel the pressure to be stuck in my youth and I try to get past it, willing myself to engage new technologies and new music especially.

I stalled out hopelessly on music sometime around the turn of the century, so engaging in new technologies is the key for me . It’s usually easy because it’s part of my job, but with some things (like text messaging on a mobile without a keyboard or Twitter) I’m a bit stymied (by things like form factor or privacy concerns) where younger people take to it effortlessly. For the most part, though, the kids I know still look at me as a tech guy who knows as much or more than them. So I’m keeping up for now, even though that won’t last forever.

But a lot of younger people “think old”, i.e. are nostalgic for a past that they didn’t even get to experience.

Usually it’s harmless and fun, but when it’s translated to left-wing/liberal politics you get the PUMA Junior Chapter or the puppet/keffiyah/free-Mumia/Wavy-Gravy-wannabe street demo crowd—very counterproductive.

Comment #82: Gracchus  on  11/03  at  04:17 PM

(Look at any department: there’s a few old dudes on the verge of retirement, then a bunch of recent hires all in the mid-to-late 30s or early 40s)

It says a LOT about how much university faculties were distorted by the bulge of boomers that only now as they start to retire that the young ‘uns replacing them are in their late thirties and forties.

Comment #83: seeker6079  on  11/03  at  04:28 PM

It’s usually easy because it’s part of my job, but with some things (like text messaging on a mobile without a keyboard or Twitter)

Twitter scares me and I refuse to use it because of privacy concerns. Sometimes I don’t want people to know where I am, and just want to be left alone.

Comment #84: Ben D.  on  11/03  at  04:33 PM

I don’t think it’s nostalgic to say that the methods used in the past may still apply today.  Yeah, every man knows where the clitoris is, but that doesn’t mean they all think their girlfriends or wives are their human equals.  And how the meme of the exceptional woman still exists, and how domestic violence is still not talked about as a serious problem in some quarters, or the “I’m not a feminist, but…” business, or the girl in a livejournal health community who really, honestly thought that the urethra was below the vagina—sure sounds like some old fashioned CR would do some good. 

And how many arguments that were started back in the 60s or 70s haven’t we won?  Reproductive justice, for example.  Or equal pay for equal work.  Or overcoming the assumption that women are the default caretakers of children.  Yeah, things have progressed (and regressed, and progressed again), and we’ve gotten over (or started to get over) a lot of the problems that existed in feminism in the second wave, and while we sometimes use different arguments these days, we’re still talking about a lot of the same things.

Comment #85: rowmyboat  on  11/03  at  04:35 PM

I sort of wonder about the parental breakdown here too, generationally. My son is 21. I cannot imagine getting involved in either his job or his college (other than writing the tuition check every semester). I’d like to stay informed about his grades, since I’m paying for it. And I enjoy reading his papers - but he sends them to me *after* he’s submitted them. I couldnt imagine screening them beforehand or arguing about his grades. He’s an *adult.* His education stopped being my business when he turned 18.

Most of my classmates’ parents were born just before the boomer generation….mostly late 1930s-mid 1940s.  The parents of the millenial undergrads I’ve met tended to be solidly babyboomer.  Moreover, they tended to be far more controlling of their offspring’s activities into the undergrad years and beyond than my own parents or those of my classmates. 

As for informing parents of grades, that was expected from most of my classmates’ parents as they were footing the tuition bill.  I managed to get a begrudged pass on that as my parents never paid a cent of my undergrad tuition as it was defrayed by a near-full academic scholarship, a loan, and my working part-time/summers.  Only after I have graduated for a few years did they find out when they asked one day out of curiosity…..and were shocked at how well I did, especially considering my W/McCain level academic performance during my time at a NYC urban public magnet high school. 

As for submitting my finished papers to my parents…..I wish! Mom’s frankly not interested in highly academic essays….and had no qualms about saying so.  Dad will use it as a platform to criticize Western academia’s efforts to study Chinese history, politics, and society.  Though he has some good points in this regard, it gets quite old after a while….especially when he exposes his own gaps of knowledge regarding post 1900 Chinese history/politics.

Comment #86: exholt  on  11/03  at  04:42 PM

I’d also like to remind people who seem to be under the impression that kids these days don’t get off their asses to try to fix social ills—just cause you don’t see it on the news doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. 

Over a million people at the March for Women’s Lives in April 2004.  Including about 10% of my (liberal, women’s) college’s student body.  Can you imagine 10% of your college’s student body doing anything together?  Especially getting into buses for an 8 hour trip, there and back in less than day and a half, the week before finals? 

Or what about all the anti-war action the first couple years of Iraq?  We demonstrated weekly at the school I was attending at the time. 

Or anytime a WTO/NAFTA/etc. meeting happens in North America? 

Or the staggering number of young folks—including those who aren’t old enough to vote—working for Obama’s campaign?

Comment #87: rowmyboat  on  11/03  at  04:45 PM

Amanda—my remarks weren’t in response to your piece so much as the comments before mine.  My main reaction to you piece was that, yes, the people who fought against civil rights are still alive and hearing those dog whistles, so are the people who fought *for* civil rights.  At least the ones the bastards didn’t kill. 

So far as I’m concerned, that my main cause for worry about an Obama presidency.  They’ve already uncovered 2 (mostly inept) assassination plots (that we know about) and I’m afraid it will only get worse as the wingnuts see their grip on privilege slipping worse and worse.

I’m feeling a bit odd about age these day, I have to admit.  I always used to be the youngest in any group I was in and now I nearly always the oldest.  Which probably says something about my mindset—let’s hope it’s good.  Mostly I don’t think much about it, but every once in a while it rises up and smacks me in the face and I have to yell at you guys to get off my lawn…

MKK

Comment #88: Mary Kay  on  11/03  at  04:48 PM

I was born in 1978, which is definitely on the generational edge, but I’m very much a Gen Xer rather than Y/Millenial.  I remember getting our first home computer and our NES (though my father’s Atari predates my memories) and I didn’t use email until college.  And I remember before “email” was the standard form of the word!

The best cutoff I’ve ever found was having concrete, first-hand memories of the Challenger explosion.

(Oh, and I still haven’t really figured out what Twitter *is* let alone be comfortable using it.)

Comment #89: Lee  on  11/03  at  04:49 PM

The best cutoff I’ve ever found was having concrete, first-hand memories of the Challenger explosion.

That’s a good one. Here’s another. Did you learn about the Soviet Union in the news or history books?

Comment #90: Ben D.  on  11/03  at  04:52 PM

I always used to be the youngest in any group I was in and now I nearly always the oldest.  Which probably says something about my mindset—let’s hope it’s good.  Mostly I don’t think much about it, but every once in a while it rises up and smacks me in the face and I have to yell at you guys to get off my lawn…

If its any help Mary Kay, I’m right there with you. Though I havent yelled at them to get off my lawn just yet…but I seem to be thinking it wink

Comment #91: Broce  on  11/03  at  04:54 PM

Can you imagine 10% of your college’s student body doing anything together?  Especially getting into buses for an 8 hour trip, there and back in less than day and a half, the week before finals?

Im actually talking bout the boomers, many of whom did just that.

Me, personally? College was out of reach for the child of many single parents in the mid 70s, myself included. Which is probably why I’m so adamant that my son not be penalized for having a single mom, and am doing without to pay for his tuition.

Comment #92: Broce  on  11/03  at  04:57 PM

Most millennial are horrified when I tell them stories of using a 2400 baud modem (2.4 k/sec) to do 12-20 hour downloads of 12-20 MB files through a terminal application using X and Z modem protocols.

Heh, we must be right about the same age.  I used Qmodem for DOS for years and could not figure out how X/Y/Zmodem would work.  15 years later I decided that I wanted scrollback / ANSI colors / etc. over ssh/rlogin/bash/etc. and thus qodem (the Qmodem clone) was born. smile  What days those were in the HolySmokes FidoNet echomail.

Comment #93: KL  on  11/03  at  04:57 PM

Ok I have no idea what KL was talking about. :D

I can use DOS command prompt to this day (barely) but that stuff went right over my head.

Comment #94: Ben D.  on  11/03  at  04:59 PM

cat door

cat cannot open door

make love

do not know how to make love. Stop.

Comment #95: Ms Kate  on  11/03  at  05:02 PM

As for submitting my finished papers to my parents…..I wish!

My son is majoring in history, and I’m a history geek who didnt have the chance at a college education. So we both really enjoy my reading his papers and discussing them once they’re submitted. And I borrow most of his books once he’s done with them. Which can lead to some interesting discussions. We recently had quite an argument about McArthur, during which he triumphantly told me that since *he* is getting a degree and I didnt, obviously he was right.

Until I pointed out the source of his information was published in 1978. And pointed him at a more recent source. (Yes, I kept the snickering to a minimum)

Comment #96: Broce  on  11/03  at  05:03 PM

More fun with UNIX commands

Comment #97: Ms Kate  on  11/03  at  05:06 PM

Amanda, you have yet to prove anything about the Coleman campaign or support your ludicrous assertion about him in any way.  Your rebuke of my comment was typical.  You don’t prove a point you lob one.  What may be going on elsewhere in the country doesn’t define this local race.  You are wrong.  And Gracchus - step right up.  Let’s hear your counterfacts about this race - you being from MN and being very familiar with it and all.

Comment #98: Dr T  on  11/03  at  05:12 PM

You had 2400 baud modems? Luxury!  We had strings and tin cans and were happy to have them.

Ok, not really.  But I *can* remember envying 2400 baud modems… I’m slightly atypical for my generation in that I can remember when we had no tv set—not on principal, we just couldn’t afford one.  Of course, that was when we were living in the house with no indoor pllumbing and a pump in the kitchen.  Rural northeastern OK in the 50s—not a very good place to be.  No phone either.

These days are different thank goodness.  I’m talking to you on my MacBook Air, which I absolutely adore, and I’m planning on getting a G3 iPhone the minute my contract with T-Mobil expires.  I’m trying to learn to use Twitter, but it seems somehow presumptuous to assume folks are interested in the minutia of my day.  And, once again, most of the people I follow/who follow me are younger than I am.  Some by quite a bit.  But I love the internet and the WWW with a passion.  I’m a long-time science fiction reader.  Maybe that’s what helps keep me young and looking forward.

MKK

Comment #99: Mary Kay  on  11/03  at  05:18 PM

You LIEbrals have such an archaic idea of race relations in our Beloved Nation.  Most of you are so ignrant that you don’t even no your history.  For example, Whyoming, the state that borders mine (and the one you can see Russia from), was the first state to outlaw illegal slavery back in 1929.  Of course, legal slavery continued for many years but illegal slavery was stopped in it’s tracks there.  Mind you, we still won’t vote for a colored person, but The Heartland was on the forefront of the civil rites struggle (not NYC, Greenwich Village or San Francisco, where all you DEMONcraps live).

Comment #100: Rugged in Montana  on  11/03  at  05:20 PM

I read some people wondering why gays aren’t out against Prop 8 in even larger numbers and one part (of many of course) of that has to do with this internal tension—the battle over assimilation and there are plenty, aging and so less influential now, who feel the movement was hijacked by people who demonized other gays who didn’t buy into a new more prudish sexual veneer. The idea that it is a veneer is a big part of this particular tension.

Oddly (and circling back to the beginning of the thread), I often think that there’s at least a bit of gender essentialism in that view.  Some people seem to be really invested in the idea that men have a much higher (and much less controllable) sex drive than women do, no matter how much evidence there is to the contrary.

Comment #101: Mnemosyne  on  11/03  at  06:08 PM

but all other things are never equal, and I think caution and care are needed to avoid letting that otherwise positive development push the very real and structurally embedded historical racism of this country into the background and make it invisible.

Absolutely agreed.  It literally did not occur to me until I was an adult that racists were actually real people and not just the occasional psycho somewhere else in the state who dragged black people behind their trucks.  I wasn’t raised racist, and racism struck me as being so patently ridiculous that I could not comprehend how someone could be racist, and I assumed they had enough logic not to be.  It just seemed that simple - racism is stupid, hence people will not be racist

I guess I was wrong, but I still don’t get it.  It makes my face bleed with irritation at their ignorance.

Comment #102: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/03  at  06:12 PM

Hey, Nenya, are you the one from Slacktivist?
TV would not put me in the right generation, because we didn’t watch much, and had a black-and-white Zenith that sort of had reception up til after the appearance of the computer.  Socieoeconomic status and general lifestyle influence those kinds of markers.

Even Challenger trips me up.  I was 6.  I think if I’d been in a US classroom at the time I might have clear memories of it; I certainly have clear memories of things that happened when I was 6.  But I was overseas and only dimly aware of the whole thing.  I have stronger recollections of Halley’s comet.

Comment #103: lonespark  on  11/03  at  06:18 PM

INTPagan:  I don’t get either and I *was* raised racist.  (See above rural eastern OK in the 50s.)  I can clearly remember one day in the 1st grade.  There was a little black girl standing next to me and I thought her dress was pretty and told her so.  At the time I was aware of a vague feeling that what I was doing was ‘wrong’ somehow in a way that related to her blackness but I also remember very clearly that I didn’t know what, so it was stupid not to do it.  And it was a pretty dress!.  Even after she spread the skirt to show me where the rats had chewed holes.  (Kids!)

The feeling that no one has told me/convinced me that X is wrong so I’m gonna go ahead and do it has gotten me in trouble on occasion, but mostly it’s been the right thing.  I marvel that it was already present in my 6 year old self who had only occasionally seen a tv or heard a radio while being raised by red-necked Okies.  So for 50 years, I been telling that little girl her dress is pretty.

MKK

Comment #104: Mary Kay  on  11/03  at  06:24 PM

The best cutoff I’ve ever found was having concrete, first-hand memories of the Challenger explosion.

Yeah, when they had the AV folks bring the TV cart into our classroom so we could watch this historic moment when the first teacher went into space, and we got to watch it blow up on live television and all the teachers started crying and shut the TV off. That was great.

Here’s another one, thought it’s more subcultural ... How old were you when Smells Like Teen Spirit became a hit? Did you get to be a skulky, pre-teen, pre-punk feeling misunderstood in your thrift store clothes and your tape of a tape of a tape of a tape of a tape of a tape of the Violent Femmes, passed from freak to freak like samizdat? Or was wearing thrift store clothes and listening to the Violent Femmes mainstream and normal and even cool (not cool by the standards of you and your two other freak friends, but cool by the popular kid standard)?

Like I said, it’s kind of subcultural and won’t apply to everyone, but for those it does apply to, I find it’s a pretty big dividing line.

Comment #105: chingona  on  11/03  at  06:29 PM

And Gracchus - step right up.  Let’s hear your counterfacts about this race - you being from MN and being very familiar with it and all.

How do you know I’m not from MN? For some reason, I thought you lived somewhere in the southwest, but unlike you I’m not making any rigid assumptions. In any case, the others have covered the facts quite well, and none of them are unique to MN (where I do not live). To summarise:

* Amanda said: your claim that she’s lying is based on anecdotal evidence—not very convincing in light of your vehemence. She also noted that da telebision isn’t the only medium that uses the public airwaves, your implication to the contrary.

* Mnemosyne said: advertisers target their ad buys. Political campaigns save the negative ads for appropriate content formats: mainly network and cable news shows and talk and news radio. They buy time for the positive spots on lighter content. In regard to your particular anecdotal example, I’d add that a nationally-televised network show like an NFL game won’t have many slots for local ads to begin with, so a political group has an extra incentive to target wisely. So your anecdotal evidence is further based on a relatively exceptional example.

* Ms Kate said: GOP candidates (and their external supporters) across the country are dealing with an unusually tight fundraising race this year in comparison to their Dem rivals. Coleman isn’t an exception: not only has Franken raised and spent campaign contributions at the same pace as Coleman, but there’s also a 3rd party candidate in the mix bleeding voters from the other two. All this provides yet more incentive for Coleman and his supporters to target ad buys carefully.

Those three points alone pretty well demolish your claim, but here’s the thing about following a high-profile campaign outside one’s state: it’s pretty easy to go to Google news and get a good (and non-anecdotal) overview. Try keywords “norm coleman negative ads”.

For example, you’ll notice I mention Coleman’s outside supporters. I do that because it’s clear from numerous stories in the press that Coleman’s own flood of negative ads was such a turn-off to voters that he took the rare step of suspending them a couple of weeks ago. However, negative ads on his behalf by the GOP and conservative PACs continue, and I assume those are the ads Amanda is discussing (and, I’ll agree, imprecisely attributing directly to the campaign itself).

So there you go: your streak continues.

Comment #106: Gracchus  on  11/03  at  06:31 PM

Twitter scares me and I refuse to use it because of privacy concerns. Sometimes I don’t want people to know where I am, and just want to be left alone.

Same here, but once a critical mass of mobiles are always connected to the cloud we’re pretty much buggered. On the plus side, there will probably be some interesting business opportunities in masking and abstracting peoples’ various on-line identities while still allowing them to function.

Twitter (Lee: basically an instant-update blog platform with mini-entries made “on the fly”) does have some interesting uses (liveblogging, public event tracking, workgroup updates), but attached to someone’s personal life it seems as privacy-intrusive as public MySpace accounts.

Comment #107: Gracchus  on  11/03  at  06:33 PM

I remember back about 30 years ago

That’s a sure sign that you’re not a Millenial.

Well, that fact that I can remember at all suggests I wasn’t during my teenage years during the sixties, anyhow…

Comment #108: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/03  at  06:37 PM

I, like Obama, am a member of Generation Jones.  We’re the tail end of the Baby Boomers and too old to be Xers.  We were children of the 60s, literally.  I remember, vaguely but memorably, bits of the Kennedy administration and, much more vividly, the assassination (I remember Oswald getting shot live on tv and can even remember what I was wearing).  I remember being horrified at the scenes of women and children being hosed down and set upon by dogs in the South.  My mom was a participant (which I only barely remember) in the March on Washington.  I was 10 in 1968 and, though I didn’t understand it all, remember the horror of my parents over King’s murder, Bobby’s murder, Chicago and the Democratic National Convention.  So, yes, I am technically a child of the 60s and a Boomer.

But I wasn’t really part of it.  I, personally, was shaped by Watergate.  That’s the event that turned on my political gene.  And I think Obama was shaped by the same events.

We aren’t pie in the sky, even if we are progressive.  We don’t tend to go out into the streets, shouting about injustices, but we try to find practical ways to end them.  And we feel this way because the politics of our childhood seemed to be an endless drama, operatic but destructive.  Destructive in that people on both sides did nothing so much as hold onto and nurse their grievances, leading to the personal destruction of Bill Clinton and the politics of destruction of W.  We just tend to want things to freakin’ work and forget about all the political theatrics!!!!!!  And the Boomers, whether on the right or the left, seem to me to have never considered making anything work, just who is right and who is wrong.

I totally understood the whole No Drama Obama thing right from the start because his way is my way.  We Gen Jonesers don’t need to be the ones in the spotlight.  What we do need to make things work the best they can for the most people.

At least, that’s kinda things that have been going through my head

Comment #109: geg6  on  11/03  at  06:42 PM

Generation X? Eh. Whatever. I’m a member of the blank generation.

Comment #110: befuggled  on  11/03  at  07:11 PM

Geg6, I pray that someday I grow your patience.  I feel more akin to the hippies of the sixties, but I’m willing to give government a shot before I go all fuck-the-man.

I’m restless and I want change, and it’s taking real exercise on my part to wait like this, but I really do believe in Obama.

Comment #111: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/03  at  07:14 PM

I was born in 78, and I don’t feel like I fit in with Gen X worth a damn. I’m uh…whatever comes after that. I guess. I don’t know raspberry

Comment #112: Jennifer  on  11/03  at  07:14 PM

The heart of genX I define as anyone born ‘67-’73.

As I was born in 1967, I’m gonna have to say big NO here.  There is a generation divide in Gen X, with the older few of us sneering down our Insufferable Music Snob noses at the younger two thirds.

If you were old enough to drive and get out of the house instead of stay home and watch MTV, you’re with me.  If you were only 12 or 13 and thought Headbangers’ Ball was serious and not some lame attempt to fill air time when most of the viewership was out, you’re part of the larger, but younger, two thirds. 

If you think Guns N Roses were da bomb and that Bon Jovi really does have the #1 song of the 80s, you my friend, seriously, may be Gen X, but ugh, your older generational cohorts hate your taste in music and the premature death of New Wave you caused. 

What holds us together as a generation is distaste and boredom with the Boomers.  Are they really done?  Clinton was the first Baby Boomer prez; is that giant generation really going to finish with just two men, neither of whom actually fought in Viet Nam?

Computer-wise?  I went to computer camp when I was 16.  Was intimidated to discover that while my friends and I were talking about whether or not to take typewriters to college, Stanford sent me a letter with advice about whether or not to bring my personal computer.  Bought my first Mac+ by spring of frosh year.

My husband introduced his best friend and frosh roommate to the internet.  Said friend had a job at D E Shaw where he worked for Jeff Bezos.  Bezos took that info and created Amazon.

We’ve got bupkus from that, except for the knowledge that hubby passed on the info to someone who know how to make it happen.

Comment #113: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/03  at  07:27 PM

No one is saying that we’ve won every battle, row.  I’m just saying nostalgia is a dangerous emotion, and people who refuse to change with the times become irrelevant.  Not that sexism doesn’t exist.

Comment #114: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/03  at  07:30 PM

Most of us liberal boomers grew up, got jobs and started families and stopped actively fighting the old battles.  We remember them, though, and I for one do not forgive some of the crap the old right wingers pulled.  I went to college in the fall of ‘69, leaving home in Ohio.  Some of my high school classmates were in the crowd at Kent State when armed forces of the nation, the Ohio National Guard, opened fire on their own people for having the temerity to protest the Vietnam War.  I played high school basketball against one of the guys killed.  There certainly were a lot of excesses among the peace and love crowd and a lot of self-indulgent behavior.  I don’t idolize those times.  But Ronnie Raygun teargassed my compatriots and it burned my ass when that self-righteous bastard was elected and again when he was deified upon his death.  I know that Obama is not carrying a banner for us, and I really do hope he is true to his word to try to bridge the old gaps.  But when his election is announced, I’m going to say several F-yous to the culture warriors of the right.

Oh, BTW, Obama is all for reviving the old big union movement, witness the supremely ironically named Employee Free Choice Act.

Comment #115: MiddleageLiberal  on  11/03  at  07:53 PM

My son is majoring in history, and I’m a history geek who didnt have the chance at a college education. So we both really enjoy my reading his papers and discussing them once they’re submitted. And I borrow most of his books once he’s done with them. Which can lead to some interesting discussions. We recently had quite an argument about McArthur, during which he triumphantly told me that since *he* is getting a degree and I didnt, obviously he was right.

Until I pointed out the source of his information was published in 1978. And pointed him at a more recent source. (Yes, I kept the snickering to a minimum)

Broce,

Greetings from another history major. 

What area of history does he specialize in? My undergrad specialization was American political and modern Chinese history.

Comment #116: exholt  on  11/03  at  08:07 PM

If you were old enough to drive and get out of the house instead of stay home and watch MTV, you’re with me.  If you were only 12 or 13 and thought Headbangers’ Ball was serious and not some lame attempt to fill air time when most of the viewership was out, you’re part of the larger, but younger, two thirds.

If you think Guns N Roses were da bomb and that Bon Jovi really does have the #1 song of the 80s, you my friend, seriously, may be Gen X, but ugh, your older generational cohorts hate your taste in music and the premature death of New Wave you caused.

Other than listening to junior high and high school classmates and older cousins play Madonna, Lisa Lisa and Cult Jam, and Whitney Houston on their boomboxes, I didn’t really pay close attention to popular music until I entered college in the mid-90s and earned enough pocket money to buy my first CDs…..Green Day Dookie and Weird Al Yankovic’s Off The Deep End. 

Ok….sneer at my atrocious taste in music…...

Comment #117: exholt  on  11/03  at  08:19 PM

What area of history does he specialize in? My undergrad specialization was American political and modern Chinese history.

He still has two years - this is a five year program which combines with enough education courses that he can graduate qualified and licensed (certified?) to teach in this state along with his bachelors in history. He has not really narrowed the history studies down too much, that comes in the next semester or two. I can’t say for sure, but I’d suspect whatever he ends up specializing in, there will be a focus on military history. He’s got a passion for that which entirely escapes me - I tend to focus more on cultural and political, etc. Of course at 21, perhaps the fact that it’s different from my historical obsessions is still the point wink

Comment #118: broce  on  11/03  at  08:33 PM

Is there a Weird Al Generation?  I could belong to that.

Comment #119: lonespark  on  11/03  at  08:38 PM

My “wow, I’m getting old moment” comes when I recall being forced to stop having a pen-pal relationship with an East German girl because of claims that it was endangering my father’s job.  I’d befriended a figure skater from the former GDR/DDR when we met at a competition, and we happily started to mail letters to each other (airmail, not email!) to keep in touch.  My father worked for a Canadian company which was contracted to do work with the American military, and I was told I had to stop writing to my pen-pal because the government kept track of people who got mail from communist countries.  My father felt that my letters with East German return addresses would result in him being put on some sort of list of security risks.  He was completely serious, and to this day I’m not entirely sure if he was strangely paranoid or if adults were really in such fear of what lay behind the Iron Curtain.  I was allowed to have pen-pals in Sweden and in France, but East Germany and the USSR were off-limits.  I now know that my father actually designed teeny-tiny aspects of munitions for the US military, but I have no idea if he worked on anything which could be considered a matter of “national security”.  Perhaps he just flattered himself, but I did stop writing to my pen-pal around 1980 (I was able to reconnect with her in 1995). 

I applied for permanent residence in the United States a few years ago, and part of the process involved a background check by both the FBI and RCMP.  The background check did take longer than average, although I was eventually approved without further comment.  I wonder if there’s any chance that the RCMP had a file saying I used to be friendly with the former enemy?

File this with memories of being awestruck by “Pong”.

Comment #120: Leigh-Ann  on  11/03  at  09:10 PM

He still has two years - this is a five year program which combines with enough education courses that he can graduate qualified and licensed (certified?) to teach in this state along with his bachelors in history. He has not really narrowed the history studies down too much, that comes in the next semester or two. I can’t say for sure, but I’d suspect whatever he ends up specializing in, there will be a focus on military history. He’s got a passion for that which entirely escapes me - I tend to focus more on cultural and political, etc. Of course at 21, perhaps the fact that it’s different from my historical obsessions is still the point

What state are you in?

Just curious as where I am (NY), one needed a Masters in Education to be allowed to teach in NY public schools….though I heard they are considering relaxing such requirements. 

As for historical interests….to each their own….smile

Is there a Weird Al Generation?  I could belong to that.

There was a decent number of college classmates who liked Weird Al.  When I bought those CDs, I had to record them onto a cassette tape using a classmate’s boombox to record from the CD.  One 90 minute cassette…..Green Day Dookie on Side A…Weird Al’s Off The Deep End on Side B. 

Agg….just dated myself again….yes…cassettes and walkmans were quite common back then.

Comment #121: exholt  on  11/03  at  09:17 PM

HEY.  I am 54.  My kids (all black, all adopted) are 10, 11, and 13.  I have voted since 1972, I was part of the sixties (marginal), and the sixties went on WAY into the seventies - Nixon didn’t resign until I was a sophmore in college, and then came the WOMEN’S movement…........

I do NOT consider myself an OLDER voter.  I am who I am, and frankly, I resent being categorized.  I know I sound like a parent now, but tough fucking shit.  It is my firm belief that my children, and probably a lot of you on this blog are way less conscious of race, sexual orientation, and even gender, because of “older voters” like me.  Yikes, I DO sound like a parent.  oh well.

We’ve been waiting a long long time for this.  Clinton was NOT the answer, as far as I am concerned, although I guess he was an ok president…..back in “the old days”, President’s blow jobs were kept quiet.  Kind of wish that quaint old tradition had survived.

The emphasis on age in this thread marginalizes an entire generation of radicals to “older voter” status.  meh.

Comment #122: renegademom  on  11/03  at  09:57 PM

I’m one of those who don’t seem to fit in to any particular ‘generation’.  I was born in 1976 and so technically, I think I’m a late X-er, but I don’t really fit in with that crowd or with group that came next.

I do, however, vividly remember the Challenger explosion, BetaMax machines with the remote control with a cable attached to the machine, no cable tv, and there wasn’t a computer in my parents’ house for at least two or three years after I left for college in 1994.  However, my best friend in junior high had a Tandy.

Comment #123: ks  on  11/03  at  10:45 PM

don’t get me started…

i remember black and white tv

captain kangaroo

mimeograph machines for political fliers

carbon copies

8 track tapes

vinyl

iron butterfly

beetles with the engines in back

no such thing as a microwave

transistor radios

channels 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, and 13

huntley/brinkley

water cronkite

jimi hendrix

SDS

Black and lesbian separatists…....

Comment #124: renegademom  on  11/03  at  10:51 PM

I’d say if someone doesn’t vote for Obama they are racist and sexist, and homophobic or just intolerant. Even if their views or values are different from Obama’s, they’re still racist if they don’t vote for him.  We need to hold these people accountable.

Comment #125: Pepper  on  11/03  at  11:04 PM

hey pepper:

That was a good discussion we had over at stormfront.com!
Are you coming to weapons practice at the compound on Thursday?

Comment #126: Aryan Bruder  on  11/03  at  11:14 PM

I was born in ‘67, so I guess that makes me a solid GenX’er, for whatever that’s worth.  I do remember the Cold War and the existential dread that came over me around age 12 when I realized that the world could end at any moment and the people in charge of preventing that were not particularly good, or honest, or even smart.  And the sense of wonder and hope when it all seemed to end overnight.  (“I saw the decade end, when it seemed the world could change in the blink of an eye…”)  Yeah, yeah: Pong, Space Invaders, Devo, Ronnie Raygun, Max Headroom, etc. 

Screw nostalgia.  The past was never as pleasant as we want to remember.

My mother was a boomer and a radical hippie.  Single mom, often “homeless” living in communes and on the road till she met my dad in ‘73.  She talks about those times often but it isn’t a sense of nostalgia I get from her.  More of a sense of wonder that she survived it with her mind reasonably intact.  It really was an intense time, lots of fear and paranoia- some of it was quite justified, some was just crazy. 

There was certainly a sense of hope for bringing about fundamental changes but it was combined with a sense of dread that everything was falling apart.  And The Man wasn’t going to give up without a fight- and he didn’t.  It wasn’t all pot and flowers, not by a long shot. 

You can get that schizophrenic sense of hope and dread from the music: for every “Age of Aquarius,” “Me and Bobby McGee” or “Imagine” there’s an “Eve of Destruction,” “Cloud Nine,” or “When the Music’s Over.” 

As Mom likes to say, “the bigger the front, the bigger the back.”

Comment #127: RobW  on  11/03  at  11:43 PM

These days are different thank goodness.  I’m talking to you on my MacBook Air, which I absolutely adore, and I’m planning on getting a G3 iPhone the minute my contract with T-Mobil expires.  I’m trying to learn to use Twitter, but it seems somehow presumptuous to assume folks are interested in the minutia of my day.

The 2400 modem came with the computer I had in college….and this was during a time when 2400 modems were considered the bargain-basement models.  For basic terminal text access to check unix email on elm, emacs, or pine it was ok…...for downloading large binary files, however, it was sheer torture…..especially when you find that the crappy rural phone lines meant the file got corrupted and you had to start the overnight download all over again the following night. :(

I agree these days are better in many ways…..though I miss the more carefree optimism of my undergrad years as current undergrads seem to be dealing with micromanaging parents, college administrators, and W’s political mess. 

Have been chatting throughout the day off a Dell C600 Pentium III notebook running XP, Dell Dimension 4600 Pentium 4 based machine which is running Mac OSX 10.5.5, and an G3 based Indigo Imac running Mac OSX 10.4.11.  What’s more interesting is that the latter two machines were obtained free from the sidewalk trash on my evening and weekend walks in the area. 

As for twitter….I have no desire to allow anyone….even close friends know what I am doing every moment of the day.

Comment #128: exholt  on  11/04  at  01:11 AM

I am solidly Gen X.

I watched the Challenger explode live my senior year of HS. (my science teacher had been the runner up)

I wasn’t allowed to watch “The Day After,” although some of my classmates had walk-ons. (it was filmed in the next town over)

I wasn’t conceived at Woodstock. I don’t remember the race riots, except the sketchy stories from my mom about being sent to stay with my grandparents.

We had 3 network channels, 2 independents and a religious one you could only get when the wind blew right. No microwave, no cable, no computer. (i got my first computer after I was married)

I grew up listening to Anne Murray and the Statler Brothers, spent my teens with Ronnie Milsap, Sylvia and Mickey Gilley. And I could totally get behind being a member of the Weird Al generation.

I remember when Harrison Ford was the sexiest man alive, when rock went androgynous and when we bombed Libiya.


And it wears me out on political forums when I’m the youngest person there and the old marines go after the old hippies.  It’s over. It’s been over almost my whole life. Catch up or go to the Old Boomers’ Home.

Comment #129: Angelia Sparrow  on  11/04  at  01:29 AM
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