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Next entry: Lo, And The Demon Came From The Fiery Pits Previous entry: When your opponents have no compunction about lying….

Real vs. unreal Americans

Digby is amused/disgusted at conservatives who simply will not accept that having a majority in both houses of Congress and having the Presidency means that Democrats get to pass legislation.  It’s been a common theme—-making arguments about how “the people” don’t want this, arguments that imply that the Democrats got power by sneaking in and taking it without anyone noticing. 

It’s fairly clear that Republicans don’t understand how democracy works. You campaign, people vote, you win elections, you get a majority, you pass legislation. They seem to think Democracy means that that elections are irrelevant, majorities are meaningless and that all legislation is contingent upon the permission of the Republican Party.

I had that same moment watching this video of a woman who seems to think she lives under a tyrannical system where Democrats grabbed power by force and are shoving things down her throat, the #1 favorite metaphor of Republicans.

She’s engaging in fantasies of armed rebellion, and that tends to grab your attention, but what’s interesting is that in order to justify these claims to the right to armed rebellion, conservatives have to claim to be speaking for a majority.  But of course, the problem with this is that Democrats won and won big. How do they reconcile their views with these unfortunate facts?

Well, it’s simple, really.  They assume, if they don’t state it outright, that large numbers of American voters shouldn’t have the right to vote.  That’s the implicit argument when Sarah Palin praises white rural voters as “Real Americans”, when Birthers obsess over the idea that the first black President simply can’t be eligible for office, when tea baggers yell racist and homophobic slurs at politicians, and when they insist that you eliminate black voters from the count if you want to find out how popular a politician “really” is. When Bart Stupak laughed out loud at the very idea that nuns have opinions worth listening to—-and listed a bunch of men whose opinions were the ones that counted—-you had a similar sentiment being expressed.  Universal suffrage seems like a fundamental part of democracy to liberals, but it appears that conservatives think it de-legitimizes the results of elections.  And that if you do something without Republicans on board, you’re eliminating those who represent the only people who count. 

The irony here is that Republicans are already way overrepresented in Congress.  Because of the constitutional rules that give every state two Senators, no matter how underpopulated the state, you see rural, white-dominated areas having way more representation than they deserve.  For instance, South Dakota has a little over 800,000 residents, but New York has almost 20 millionNew York City has over 8 million people alone, which means that if the Senate had a representational system like the House, just the city of New York would be owed 20 Senators to compete with South Dakota’s two.  Think about how irrelevant the Republican party would be—-at least the current wingnutty Republican party, since it’s obvious New York can elect Republicans—-if representation was actually fair. 

Republicans are way overrepresented, and yet they act like someone stole their cookies.  This is par for the course when it comes to conservative thinking, where entitlement is considered normal and fairness an encroachment on what’s right and just in the world.  So a social contract where people who create wealth through labor are allowed some of the spoils is considered “socialism”, and certain forms of work are not considered work at all, because they’re performed by people who don’t count in the Republican hierarchy.  (Thus, conservatives brag about how they’re “producers” while denying that people who provide labor in various low-paying jobs produce anything, even though our society would come to a grinding halt without them.)  Or think of the gay marriage debates.  When you boil it down, the whining about “protecting traditional marriage” is nothing more than suggesting that straight people deserve a cookie for being straight, and that’s it.  You can continue in this vein, but I think the point is clear—-a one person, one vote system offends their sensibilities, and conservatives think your vote should count significantly less and possibly not at all if you belong to a group they dislike.  Maybe knock 25% of its value if you’re gay, 25% off if you’re not white or not male, another 25% off if you live in an urban area, and small percentages off for each violation of the culture war codes. So, if you prefer wine to beer, 2% off.  If you work in a creative industry, 5% off.  For every green action you take, 1% off—-recycling 1%, driving a hybrid 1%, reusing cloth bags instead of plastic ones at the store 1%.  If you’re a woman who didn’t change her name when married, 10% off.  I could go all day, but you get the picture.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:20 PM • (59) Comments

Spot on as usual, Amanda.  Funny how the ones screaming the loudest about “tyranny” are the ones most intent on bringing it about.

Comment #1: damnedyankee  on  03/22  at  06:41 PM

Fuck it, the more I see of conservative values, the more I’m just convinced they’re evil.  http://punkassblog.com/2010/03/22/conservatives-are-evil/

Comment #2: Antigone  on  03/22  at  06:42 PM

Where were the TeaBaggers during the Bush II reign when they GOP had all three arms of the government and no checks & balances?  Where were the Teabaggers when they rammed through (completely unfunded) Medicare Part D - the ultimate gift to health insurance cos?  Were Teabaggers protesting on tax day 2008, when their Fed tax rates were exactly the same as they were on tax day 2009?

Chalk it up to plain old American racism - the Black President is going to give all the goodies to his BlackIllegalAlien welfare buddies; and throw a dose of sexism in, too - they’re convinced Nancy Pelosi is making sure all of the SFCommieGays get anything else left over!

Comment #3: CParis  on  03/22  at  06:52 PM

25% off for being gay? What if I’m just a big straight guy who’s comfortable enough with his sexuality to enjoy knitting and expensive shoes, and who has a lot of gay friends?

Comment #4: felagund  on  03/22  at  07:13 PM

I’m pretty sure that by that metric, you’d have a bunch of people with negative votes by the end of it all.

Comment #5: Jeff  on  03/22  at  07:20 PM

I’m pretty sure that by that metric, you’d have a bunch of people with negative votes by the end of it all.

Yeah, it’s a trick.  They then vote for parties they don’t like.

Comment #6: Brian  on  03/22  at  07:51 PM

(Thus, conservatives brag about how they’re “producers” while denying that people who provide labor in various low-paying jobs produce anything, even though our society would come to a grinding halt without them.)

Ah yes. Those “libertarians” who fervently believe in the moral superiority of the free market—unless it includes someone having the freedom to get together with his coworkers and decide they’re not going to work for minimum wage and no bennies anymore, and the freedom to do the necessary to make that decision have some effect on their lives.

Comment #7: Molly, NYC  on  03/22  at  08:01 PM

(Thus, conservatives brag about how they’re “producers” while denying that people who provide labor in various low-paying jobs produce anything, even though our society would come to a grinding halt without them.)

Indeed - I’ve had wingnuts ragging on me for being a “low-level government functionary” when they’ve found out I’m a (*gasp*) librarian.

They seem to be puzzled that it doesn’t bother me.  The simple fact is that librarians - and teachers, and firefighters, and (usually) the police - *are* civilization.  Our jobs are honourable because society - a functioning, working , worthwhile society, not the libertarian fantasy - depends on us.

What we have here is fat cells who think they’re muscle sneering at the bones as being “unproductive”.

Comment #8: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/22  at  08:16 PM

It’s fairly clear that Republicans don’t understand how democracy works.

Oh, they understand it just fine when it’s working in their favor, even to the point of ignoring the “constitutional republic” part of things, as in their multitudinous calls for putting people’s rights up for other people to vote on.

If they can manage tyranny of the majority, they’re democracy’s greatest supporters; when they can’t, they run for the judiciary they’ve just accused of “activism” and “legislating from the bench.”

They’re not stupid. They’re entitled and horrendously selfish.

Comment #9: Kyra  on  03/22  at  08:51 PM

Amanda quoted:

It’s fairly clear that Republicans don’t understand how democracy works. You campaign, people vote, you win elections, you get a majority, you pass legislation. They seem to think Democracy means that that elections are irrelevant, majorities are meaningless and that all legislation is contingent upon the permission of the Republican Party.

OK, let’s imagine, just for the sake of argument, that the Republicans win back control of the Congress in the next two elections, and retire President Obama after just one term.  That would mean, using what you quoted, that Republicans would get to pass legislation.  Does that mean you wouldn’t holler if the legislation the Republicans tried to pass was a repeal of the health care bill?

Of course, we already have examples of how much you think of majorities when the votes of the majority don’t go your way.  If I am to take seriously what you wrote above, shouldn’t I expect that you would have no criticisms of California’s Proposition 8, since it was, in fact, approved by a solid majority of the voters?  After all, that’s how democracy works, right?

Comment #10: Dana  on  03/22  at  08:55 PM

prop 8 seems like a poor example to me dana, something about popular vote determining civil rights is off, perhaps its living in the South for 10 years that has made me think that.

Comment #11: dan&danica;  on  03/22  at  09:00 PM

“Our jobs are honourable because society - a functioning, working , worthwhile society, not the libertarian fantasy - depends on us.”

That’s just it, all too many of our “libertarian” friends don’t believe in society, worthwhile or otherwise.

There is just a group of individual producers being held back by the parasitic masses.  If only they could be freed from the leeches who drain them dry, the Galtoids could create a paradise.  But they can’t because we chose the wrong guy as president, and supported the political system instead of abolishing it in favor of a benign dictatorship of the superior, and asked for things like access to healthcare. 

We have shown we’re unworthy of our natural overlords.  Now they will be forced to leave and let America slide into the dark pit of socialism…

Comment #12: MikeEss  on  03/22  at  09:08 PM

I think it is much stupider and simpler than fantasies of disenfranchisement.  These idiots really believe that “America” is as they see and live it.  They are deluded.  They have absolutely no understanding of the larger demographics and population density trends in the United States as a whole, let alone their own states and congressional districts.  They have declared their way of being as sacred and in the majority.  They have no way to know or understand how very outnumbered they really are.

Comment #13: Ms Kate  on  03/22  at  09:09 PM

The Phoenician wrote:

The simple fact is that librarians - and teachers, and firefighters, and (usually) the police - *are* civilization.  Our jobs are honourable because society - a functioning, working , worthwhile society, not the libertarian fantasy - depends on us.

Given that you believe civilization depends on you, one wonders just who would be missed first, and more, if all of the librarians and all of the garbage collectors went on strike at the same time.  If all of the librarians and all of the truck drivers quit at the same time, the absence of which ones would lead to turmoil first?  Does civilization somehow depend more on the teacher in the classroom than the man who cleans the crap out of the sewage treatment plant tanks?

Comment #14: Dana  on  03/22  at  09:09 PM

“Does civilization somehow depend more on the teacher in the classroom than the man who cleans the crap out of the sewage treatment plant tanks?”

Dana, nobody said that garbage collectors, truck drivers or sewage workers are not important parts of society.  But try to live in a society more advanced than the 18th or 19th Century without librarians and their stocks of collected knowledge, scientists and their fertilizers and medicines, engineers and their bridges, buildings, and roads, and, yes, teachers who prepare each generation for the challenges ahead.

The American economic lunch is being consumed by other countries because we fail to appreciate knowledge while they emphasis its importance.

Do you really want to live in a world where the only jobs Americans are fit for is garbage collection, driving trucks, and cleaning sewers?...

Comment #15: MikeEss  on  03/22  at  09:20 PM

Dana, read the comment above yours about “tyranny of the majority”, when people get to vote on other people’s basic rights instead of those rights being constitutionally protected.
We wouldn’t approve of your right to vote, or your ability to raise a family, being taken away just because you’re a dumbass, even though we are generally anti-dumbass. Human rights are more important than majority approval of them.

Comment #16: Samantha Vimes  on  03/22  at  09:21 PM

Dana, there’s a difference between saying that legislation is bad and saying it’s illegitimate. Prop 8’s a bad example because it involves putting basic liberties before a popular vote, but let’s go with your Obamacare repeal idea for a second. We’d complain about it, sure, but we’d hardly holler about it being illegitimate. We’d just organize and try to win back the Congress so we can put it back together - you know, like adults. Fact is, most of Obama’s health plan was passed with 60 votes in the Senate and a majority of 219 in the House. The rest was passed by a 220-vote majority in the House and will be passed by a majority in the Senate via a legitimate parliamentary procedure used often by both parties (most recently with the Bush tax cuts). Health care reform won fair and square. The sooner the Right admits that, the better - for the country and for them.

I, personally, don’t have a problem with people who complain about legislation being bad unless they lie or hyperventilate about it (think Yorkshire’s “USA RIP” thing on your site for an example of “hyperventilation”). Hell, there are lots of things I don’t like about this legislation. But to say that it’s been illegitimately forced on Americans is pure malarkey.

Comment #17: Jeff  on  03/22  at  09:24 PM

Who would be missed first?  The garbage collectors, of course (with the exception of us bibliophiles).  Who would be missed for the longest and the hardest?  The librarians.  The libraries here not only provide people with books and knowledge (an intrinsic good in and of itself) they also run the after-school, free homework hub, the free community seminars on things like gardening, home repair, and others, they also run the small business center.

It’s kind of like asking “What’s more important, alignment, or gas?” You’ll need gas first, but if you don’t keep your car aligned it’ll work worse, cost more money, and in the end be expensive to fix.

Comment #18: Antigone  on  03/22  at  09:33 PM

There are plenty of people arguing “healthcare is a right”, though, and people might well kick up a fuss along the “healthcare is a right” line.  In practice, of course, rights are decided by various types of voting, because pretty much that’s the only way we have to do things (though the road there is sometimes convoluted and the like.)  Who votes on what and how isn’t obvious, and people on all sides of issues tend towards seeing methods as legitimate when it produces the outcome they want, and to seeing other methods as legitimate when it doesn’t.  (For instance, whether something should be decided by judges, politicans or referendums is usually argued by people on the grounds of “I think that’s where I’d win.” even if they don’t admit it.  If referendums were legalising gay marriage in California, and politicians were enacting bills against it, progressives would argue referendums were the proper way to do it, and reactionaries would argue they’re illegitimate.)

Comment #19: Brian  on  03/22  at  09:41 PM

Does that mean you wouldn’t holler if the legislation the Republicans tried to pass was a repeal of the health care bill?

What your side is doing isn’t simply harmless “hollering”.

It isn’t peacefull dissent.

They are threatening literal violence against the President of the United States and other elected officials.  They are calling for their fellow teabaggers to take up arms against their own country.  They aren’t even being subtle about their hatred for anyone who isn’t a white straight male.

Or did you miss the part where they called Rep. John Lewis, one of this country’s greatest Civil Rights’ champions, a “nigger”?  Did you miss the part where they called Rep. Barney Frank, an openly gay man, a “faggot”?  Did you miss the part where they spit on one of my state’s African-American Congressmen, Rep. Emanuel Cleaver?

This isn’t about peaceful protest.  This is about violent, hateful douchebaggery of the highest order.

Comment #20: DTG in STL  on  03/22  at  09:53 PM

Conservatives sure have some weird ideas.  “Dana” may as well have asked “which is more important, your heart or your liver?” or “which is more important, air or water”?

Somalia beckons Dana.  Have at it, chump.

Comment #21: Eric_RoM  on  03/22  at  10:05 PM

Pay attention to me! Pay attention
to me!

Comment #10: Dana  on  03/22  at  06:55 PM

FTFY

Done lying and shilling for liars, Dana?

We gave your BS a fair shake. The republicans bet that they could “break” Obama. In their attempt, they blew it, bigtime.

Comment #22: Tyro  on  03/22  at  10:17 PM

Love that picture of Speaker Pelosi ... she is rubbing her hands with that wonderful hand lotion known as “Glee”.

Comment #23: Ms Kate  on  03/22  at  10:44 PM

Given that you believe civilization depends on you, one wonders just who would be missed first, and more, if all of the librarians and all of the garbage collectors went on strike at the same time.

Now I’m left wondering if Dana lives in some bizarre town where his garbage is picked up by a private company rather than the city or county.  Because, in most places, garbage collectors and sewage workers are government employees just like librarians are.  At an absolute minimum, garbage is picked up by a company that contracts with the city, so it’s not like you get to choose which waste management company is going to visit you every Monday morning.

If you want to have a city, you need people to run it, and librarians are just as vital to the running of the city as the garbage collectors are.  Or haven’t you heard the screams from your neighbors when the city announces that they’re cutting library hours or laying teachers off because they’re running short on money?

Comment #24: Mnemosyne  on  03/22  at  11:02 PM

“If you want to have a city, you need people to run it, and librarians are just as vital to the running of the city as the garbage collectors are.”

Additionally, librarians exist in more capacities than being the nice, non-threatening women who guide small children to the Dr. Seuss books.  Lots of data for all kinds of agencies is compiled in lots of fun and interesting ways, and those agencies often employ someone who knows how to find the data they need in a snap.  So, it’s almost like librarians contribute to the running of things.

Comment #25: Heo Cwaeth  on  03/22  at  11:27 PM

Given that you believe civilization depends on you, one wonders just who would be missed first, and more, if all of the librarians and all of the garbage collectors went on strike at the same time.

What would you miss more if it up and died - your kidneys or your hypothalamus?

In the short run, you’re going to miss the kidneys or the garbage collectors. In the longer run, you are going to be so screwed without a hypothalamus or librarians.

Civilization might be defined as the collective knowledge we hold and accumulate outside our heads - cities, streets and infrastructure are simply a manifestation of that knowledge. The role of the librarian is to aid people in accessing that knowledge, to help them in being more than individual isolated animals and to be actual citizens.

Where the library is, is civilization.  Which is why wingnuts such as yourself, Dana, who try to needle me with my occupation miss the mark so badly - I’m not even defensive about it.  I’m proud to be a member of the profession, and humbled by the numerous others who are better and more dedicated than I am.

Comment #26: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/22  at  11:45 PM

Let’s not forget that the ideology of today’s conservatives descends directly from the states rights secessionist theories of John C. Calhoun, developed originally to defend the constitutional protection of slavery.  Most Americans don’t realize that in determining how many electoral votes to award states under the original Constitution, each black slave was counted as 3/5 of a person.  So for more than 70 years, before the election of Lincoln, Southerners lived happily in a political system in which a black person was equivalent to 3/5 of a white person.  Fortunately that system was extinguished by the Civil War and the constitutional amendments that followed, but as we know, the suppression of black people’s rights went on for another century before the civil rights movement and the laws it made possible—laws which Newt Gingrich cynically trashed today as a “mistake” of the Democrats because it lost them the South.  No, Newt, the whole nation actually lost the kind of South your party’s supporters might have preferred (on the evidence of the signs carried yesterday by white protesters), 145 years ago.

Comment #27: JackSD  on  03/23  at  12:12 AM

Dana, protesting legislation = / claiming that majorities don’t have the right. Your comment was pure strawman. It’s like I said, “Republicans claim the sky is pink,” and you, “But Democrats claim the sky is blue! Isn’t that also a color, hypocrites?” In other words, you’re full of shit.

Republicans are implying and sometimes claiming partisan legislation is illegitimate. It’s not. Majority rules.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/23  at  12:42 AM

You forgot the most important penalty: 100% if you vote for a Democrat.

Comment #29: genesic  on  03/23  at  01:22 AM

Most Americans don’t realize that in determining how many electoral votes to award states under the original Constitution, each black slave was counted as 3/5 of a person.  So for more than 70 years, before the election of Lincoln, Southerners lived happily in a political system in which a black person was equivalent to 3/5 of a white person.

I’m afraid you’ve gotten the whole 3/5ths Compromise backwards (a pretty common mistake).  The Southerners actually wanted slaves to be counted as whole people, because that would have given them an insurmountable advantage in Congress over the non-slaveholding states based on their population, plus the advantage in the electoral college.  Northerners didn’t want them counted at all, because only counting free people would give the North the advantage.  The compromise was that the South could partially count their slaves as part of their population in order to determine their representation in Congress.

In other words, what the South wanted was actually even worse than what you presented:  they wanted all of the political advantages of claiming a large population without having to actually treat the slaves that would have given them that numerical advantage as citizens.  And they’re still trying to play the same tricks today.

Comment #30: Mnemosyne  on  03/23  at  02:32 AM

You (no doubt inadvertently) left out an important detail, Mnemosyne.  They wanted the slaves counted, but in no way did they wish grant them the franchise.

Comment #31: weirdnoise  on  03/23  at  03:45 AM

Of course, we already have examples of how much you think of majorities when the votes of the majority don’t go your way.  If I am to take seriously what you wrote above, shouldn’t I expect that you would have no criticisms of California’s Proposition 8, since it was, in fact, approved by a solid majority of the voters?  After all, that’s how democracy works, right?

We live in a representative republic.  Democracy as you implied it to work simply as a vote by the masses which the founding fathers were rather scared of, you can find numerous letters and papers if you ever bothered to read but I highly doubt that since you hate librarians and claim “common sense” which is the code word of conservatives to mean “I am right, regardless of what really is going on.” 

The point of the constitution is to provide liberties and rights to the minority groups even while majorities rule.  The basic right to have a civil union (aka: Marriage) is something that isn’t equivalent to budgets, health care, or much anything else congress passes.  This is what I try to separate, since civil rights legislation is protected under the 14th amendment and no matter how bigoted the majority may get it fundamentally can’t change the rules. 

The way the republicans are fighting this, it is just obnoxious.  They know they lost the elections based on Obama’s health care plan and several other OBJECTIVE based campaign issues.  The republicans want to make it based on his race, his likability, and such.  They can’t accept that democrats won by winning elections, it destroys their theory that 40% or whatever random number they throw out nowadays is conservative. 

Given that you believe civilization depends on you, one wonders just who would be missed first, and more, if all of the librarians and all of the garbage collectors went on strike at the same time.  If all of the librarians and all of the truck drivers quit at the same time, the absence of which ones would lead to turmoil first?  Does civilization somehow depend more on the teacher in the classroom than the man who cleans the crap out of the sewage treatment plant tanks?

What are you equating?  That Librarians/Teachers are less valuable then sanitation engineers?  Well after a few weeks of smelly garbage we would just go greener and use better garbage disposal.  Without teachers or librarians a whole generation of average Americans would be lost, including you Dana because you weren’t educated in a private school.  So we would fall into third world status sooner than any of us care to admit.  Just admit that the educators are probably the most important people in any society.  No CEO is needed in society, educators are.

Comment #32: Xeranar  on  03/23  at  05:03 AM

DTG wrote:

What your side is doing isn’t simply harmless “hollering”.

It isn’t peacefull dissent.

They are threatening literal violence against the President of the United States and other elected officials.  They are calling for their fellow teabaggers to take up arms against their own country.  They aren’t even being subtle about their hatred for anyone who isn’t a white straight male.

Was some of it over-the-top?  Yup, sure was.  I’m sure that my friends on the left have never done anything like it.

Comment #33: Dana  on  03/23  at  08:02 AM

Dana, there were a few people who threatened Bush, but there are two major factors that destroy your parallelism. The first is that Bush really was never legitimately elected. The second is that there’s no giant liberal media Wurlitzer that gives a megaphone and encouragement to that tiny fraction of the left that would threaten violence. The Republicans and their allies in the corporate media make the racism, the shouting, the guns and the death threats against Obama all part of their mainstream.

Comment #34: felagund  on  03/23  at  08:13 AM

Mnemosyne wrote:

Now I’m left wondering if Dana lives in some bizarre town where his garbage is picked up by a private company rather than the city or county.  Because, in most places, garbage collectors and sewage workers are government employees just like librarians are.  At an absolute minimum, garbage is picked up by a company that contracts with the city, so it’s not like you get to choose which waste management company is going to visit you every Monday morning.

The Borough of Jim Thorpe contracts with a waste management company to collect garbage and recyclables; our bills are paid to the Borough.  When I lived in Hockessin, Delaware, it was up to the individual homeowners to contract with a private garbage collection company, and there was more than one from which to choose.  In other places, garbage collection was a straight municipal workers’ job.

But the question is not who picks up the garbage, but the Phoenician’s strange notion that he and his compatriots are somehow the pinnacle of civilization, the keepers of our knowledge.  There’s a snootiness involved in his claim, as though the minions who keep the refuse from piling up somehow aren’t all that important.

Comment #35: Dana  on  03/23  at  08:15 AM

felagund wrote:

The first is that Bush really was never legitimately elected.

Silly stuff.  Of course George Bush was legitimately elected, twice.  The presidential election occurs when the electors gather in their state capitals to cast their votes, and there was never any doubt that Mr Bush won those two elections. 

Of course, we can find not a few people who think that Barack Obama wasn’t legitimately elected, because they don’t think he’s a natural born citizen.  (No, I’m not one of them.)  If you can use the argument you made to say that it was perfectly acceptable to want to kill President Bush, then those who think President Obama wasn’t legitimately elected could say exactly the same thing.

Comment #36: Dana  on  03/23  at  08:50 AM

Dana, you’re squabbling on the edges.  Straw, straw, straw.

The Republican vice presidential candidate suggested that white, rural Americans were the only real Americans. 

Belief that only some people count is the mainstream of your party, not the fringe.  You believe it!  Which is why you troll a feminist blog. 

Pointing to a few outliers who do a couple similar things is missing the point, albeit on purpose.

In fact, since you are a lying shitbag, I fail to see why I should argue with you.  You know I’m right and don’t care.  You can’t persuade someone like that.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/23  at  09:16 AM

“Ah yes. Those “libertarians” who fervently believe in the moral superiority of the free market—unless it includes someone having the freedom to get together with his coworkers and decide they’re not going to work for minimum wage and no bennies anymore, and the freedom to do the necessary to make that decision have some effect on their lives. “

Molly, libertarians are not against people deciding to unionize, just as they are not against allowing companies to fire employees who try.

Comment #38: anoNY  on  03/23  at  09:25 AM

“Our jobs are honourable because society - a functioning, working , worthwhile society, not the libertarian fantasy - depends on us.”

Sounds more like a Randian fantasy.  There are plenty of libertarians who support public libraries.  I for one love the library in my town, the amount of taxes I pay to support it is much much less than the amount I would spend on the books I have read there.  Thank you for serving your community.

Comment #39: anoNY  on  03/23  at  09:29 AM

You know I’m right and don’t care.

This is precisely the problem with Dana’s bleating, yet, honestly, part and parcel of the symptom Amanda talks about. Rather than even trying to defend the “we’re the only real Americans” BS from the right, or even trying to deny it, he just resorts to a “you libruls aren’t all that!” whining which ends up sounding just like the “we’re the real Americans!” stuff.

There was wide, bipartisan agreement to put Democrats in charge across the country. even Dana’s neighbors agreed. That a bunch of natural advantages granted to the small, rural, right-wing states still ensured that they couldn’t even give them anywhere near parity with the Democrats should have led to a certain amount of introspection on this one.

What were the Republicans angry about? That too many blacks were voting. And that Democrats were passing legislation that they campaigned on, top the point where Republicans engaged in a campaign of lying to get the partisans up in a violent rage. And what was Dana’s response? Celebration that this was an electoral opportunity to get these violent ignorant dishonest losers on his side.

It’s just another sign that signing up to the Republican party turns a person into a moral midget in pursuit of their partisan interests. Dana end up just proving the point—he’s emotionally incapable of dealing with a reality in which the Democrats are in charge… because everything he’s believed his adult life has been revealed as a big fat lie. He’s still a man unable to face up to his moral and intellectual failures he made when he cast his lot with Bush and the other loser Republicans, and now it’s freaking him out.

Comment #40: Tyro  on  03/23  at  09:30 AM

ie Dana’s little “real basis of civilization” workers and MikeE’s reply back 14-15:
Without the teachers, those sewer workers wont be around long, maybe a genration.  Most of us now live where our sewers are handled either directly (via sewerage piping systems) or indirectly (via septic pump drop off collection points) by treatment plants.  These treatment plants are NOT run by your common Joe Blow high school drop out; they are run by highly trained technicians, scientists and engineers.

Comment #41: helen w. h.  on  03/23  at  09:33 AM

Amanda wrote:

In fact, since you are a lying shitbag, I fail to see why I should argue with you.  You know I’m right and don’t care.  You can’t persuade someone like that.

You argue with me because we’re both cat people!  smile

But your statement “You know I’m right and don’t care” assumes that you’ve persuaded me.  No, you haven’t, and I don’t know—or believe—that you are right.  I’m sure that you’ve read things by a lot of other people who don’t know you’re right as well; why would you conclude I actually believe you?

Straight up, no waffling about it, if I challenge something you’ve said, it is because I believe it.

Comment #42: Dana  on  03/23  at  10:17 AM

Great post, Amanda. The interesting thing is that while the GOP looks like they are simply lying when they claim that Americans do not support the reforms in this bill (despite polls showing support for the individual effects of legislation, and the substantial portion of anti-HCR-bill-ers who are against it from the Left), reading this makes me realize that they are actually just blinded by the definitional problem that you describe. If you limit “Americans” to “Straight White Male Americans”, their talking points are probably true (though, as a member of that demographic, I’d like to be on the guest list for the “Non-American” club, please). If the GOP keeps getting on the TV and ranting about what Americans (their version) think, while Americans (our version, AKA reality) decidedly do not think those things, that does not bode well for them in the future. Unfortunately, I’m not sure it bodes well for our country, either, to have a party that has completely turned in on itself, and has ceased to engage with the broader realities of their nation. That may lead to Democratic victories, but the price of never being able to have a meaningful dialogue with a huge portion of the country (less than half, but huge) is too high, in my book.

Comment #43: judd  on  03/23  at  10:22 AM

When was the last time New York City elected a Democrat as mayor?

Comment #44: James  on  03/23  at  10:36 AM

Couldn’t agree more. And I am so sick and tire of the “ram/shove it down our throats” metaphor. Conservatives relate everything to violence and/or sexual assault. Such great “family values”.

Comment #45: Olivia  on  03/23  at  10:43 AM

Dana, you’re a dishonest shithead, as this <href=“http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/how_covering_up_for_abuse_is_sadly_common/site/comments#189188”>person</a> pointed out a while back:

Dana, we’re not talking in generalities here, we’re talking about men backing up other men when they harm women. Nice of you to try and change the subject from that, specifically, to something bland and non-sexist.

Isn’t there somewhere else besides your blog where you can pollute the Internet with your stupidity instead of here?

Comment #46: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  03/23  at  10:52 AM

I love this one. Like the first poster said: spot on.

Comment #47: Ranylt  on  03/23  at  10:54 AM

Straight up, no waffling about it, if I challenge something you’ve said, it is because I believe it.

Except that you haven’t challenged anything she has said, you just started bleating about something else, in most cases basically agreeing with Amanda but just explaining why she was wrong to take the right wingers to task for their pathologies.

Comment #48: Tyro  on  03/23  at  11:52 AM

When was the last time New York City elected a Democrat as mayor?

Dinkins was the last Dem. Mayor of NYC - his term ended in 1993. Of course, we’ve only had two mayors since then - and though both are (or were, Bloomberg is now Independant) Republican they were also New York Republicans - aka old school “fiscal Republicans” (the kind that don’t actually exist now) who are (ok, were - Guiliani has gone even further off the deep end) socially liberal.

Comment #49: rivki  on  03/23  at  12:54 PM

But the question is not who picks up the garbage, but the Phoenician’s strange notion that he and his compatriots are somehow the pinnacle of civilization, the keepers of our knowledge.  There’s a snootiness involved in his claim, as though the minions who keep the refuse from piling up somehow aren’t all that important.

Comment #35: Dana

Yep, Rome fell because no one picked up the garbage.

Though it makes me wonder (caution antic-data ahead) why the redder the district/county/state, the more garbage I see piled up in yards, along roadways, and in the gutters.

Comment #50: cynickal  on  03/23  at  01:38 PM

Shorter Dana: Look! Over there!

Also, is anybody else getting the feeling that Dana hates librarians? Not only do they have access to stuff he’d call lies, but they’re slutty about giving it to just anybody and making his job as Ignoranus in Chief that much harder.

You know, Dana, if your cause was that noble and true, you wouldn’t have to pull this shit, right?  The evasion, the strawmen, the way you always have your Sooper Sekkrit Repub Decoder Glasses on——that doesn’t do your cause any good.

Comment #51: ginmar  on  03/23  at  01:58 PM

Yep, Rome fell because no one picked up the garbage.

Interestingly, the Cloaca is one of the few pieces of ancient Roman architecture still functioning.

What I’ve noticed in Dana over the past couple of months is that his posts have been reduced to mere taunting. Posts that point out the asinine right wing attacks on Obama are met with comments from Dana about how “they work! So we’re going to keep doing them!” Posts that point out the sheer ignorance of right wingers and the emptiness/falsehood of their complaints are met with comments from Dana that “they vote! So there!”

i think he means it as a taunting reminder to all those who moved away from towns like his and people like him that he and his ilk are still out there and still resent us—just so we don’t forget and feel like we are getting to confident or happy.

Comment #52: Tyro  on  03/23  at  02:20 PM

Dana (14):

If all of the librarians and all of the truck drivers quit at the same time, the absence of which ones would lead to turmoil first?

The comparisons to bodily functions are amusing, but let’s look at the point Dana was actually making.

I mean, this came up in the context of “going Galt.” So, Dana, if all of the CEOs and all of the truck drivers quit at the same time, the absence of which ones would lead to turmoil first? Now, if all of the librarians and all of the CEOs quit at the same time, the absence of which ones would lead to turmoil first?

James (44):

When was the last time New York City elected a Democrat as mayor?

Depends how you look at it, and what rivki said. Bloomberg was an independent the last two times, and he only joined the Republican party in 2001 to avoid a primary; he all but announced he was a RINO. In any case, the last time New York elected a Republican mayor is either 2001 or 1997.

Comment #53: Hershele Ostropoler  on  03/23  at  02:34 PM

To answer the above question about NYC mayors:

1989 - David Dinkins (D)
1993 - Rudy Giuliani (R)
1997 - Rudy Giuliani (R)
2001 - Michael Bloomberg (R)
2005 - Michael Bloomberg (I)
2009 - Michael Bloomberg (I)

In any case, the two last Republican mayors were pretty socially liberal as Republicans go.

Comment #54: DTG in STL  on  03/23  at  03:27 PM

But the question is not who picks up the garbage, but the Phoenician’s strange notion that he and his compatriots are somehow the pinnacle of civilization, the keepers of our knowledge.  There’s a snootiness involved in his claim, as though the minions who keep the refuse from piling up somehow aren’t all that important.

Dana, my dear idiot, it was you that first bought up garbage collectors.  Your claim of “snootiness” isn’t very credible when I didn’t mention garbage collectors at all in the first place.  To show just how weak this attempt at an ad hominem is, I will point out that my very first job was cleaning toilets in a holiday camp (*) which doesn’t exactly lend itself to your claim of my upper-class airs and graces.

Further, I didn’t place librarians as “the pinnacle of civilization”.  Rather, libraries are emblems of civilization, a slightly different concept.

(*) Which led me to two important life lessons:
  (i) Women are just as capable of being pigs as men.
  (ii) Get yourself a job that involves sitting down in front of a computer for most of the day.

Comment #55: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/23  at  08:47 PM

(i) Sigh. Phoenician has to take a dig at women.  Stick with librarians.

Comment #56: ginmar  on  03/24  at  01:26 AM

And what would that be, precisely?

Comment #57: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  03/24  at  03:54 AM

Even from 1993 I wouldn’t call Giuliani “socially liberal”; New Yorkers just wanted someone who wasn’t. 2009 was probably the first executive election since I started voting in which I didn’t dislike either major candidate—though there’d been several in which I disliked both.

Comment #58: Hershele Ostropoler  on  03/24  at  10:34 AM

What’s interesting is that while conservatives knock the working-class who provide the backbone of our economy as not having “real jobs,” as a music major I’ve been told that my decision to pursue a creative field* and not be ashamed of it shows that I’m not “appreciative enough” of the “real hard work” that people in white-collar office jobs do which make me able to “follow my dreams.”

*Which for some conservatives, applies to not just the arts, but also jobs in journalism, education, or really any field where the person seems to be enjoying their work.  Not that white-collar “office jobs” aren’t enjoyable to some people, but I’ve gotten the impression that this disdain for what I do comes out of resentment.

Comment #59: Erda  on  03/25  at  10:57 PM
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