Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Quick! Before the site goes down again! Previous entry: Engaging Miss California with reality-based questions about equality

Really? Get married at 20? Really?

Some days you get out of bed and one of the first things you read is a piece pressuring young women—-and explicitly just women—-to get married young, and you want to go right back to bed.  Is this 2009?  Is Mark Regnerus aware that women aren’t legally considered chattel any more?  Well, of course, and he’s not having it.

The average age of American men marrying for the first time is now 28. That’s up five full years since 1970 and the oldest average since the Census Bureau started keeping track. If men weren’t pulling women along with them on this upward swing, I wouldn’t be complaining.

Really, you have to give him points for honesty.  A lot of social conservatives take a stab at pretending to be egalitarian about this.  For instance, they make purity rings for boys, even if they’re not usually expected to wear them.

The whole piece is an exercise of Regnerus saying things that are actually good things in this mournful tone, and hoping that substitutes for an argument.  It’s a weird strategy.  Like this:

The age gap between spouses is narrowing: Marrying men and women were separated by an average of more than four years in 1890 and about 2.5 years in 1960. Now that figure stands at less than two years. I used to think that only young men—and a minority at that—lamented marriage as the death of youth, freedom and their ability to do as they pleased. Now this idea is attracting women, too.

That’s like saying: “It used to be that everyone smoked inside and out, and everything stank to high heaven and everyone died of lung cancer.  You kids don’t know how good we had it.”  Sometimes arguing from tradition is merely irritating. Sometimes it’s beyond fucking stupid.  But I suppose the good thing is that Regnerus is coming right out and stating a value that social conservatives tend to avoid baldly stating—-they desire young marriage (for women), because it’s an effective tool at clipping women’s wings.  But this is rarely stated outright.  It is the whole reason for abstinence-only and other movements against making contraception available and acceptable to young people, though.  The hope is that teenagers will get pregnant and “do the responsible thing”, i.e. they’re trying to use subterfuge to get the desired results.  That’s why most of America thought Bristol Palin’s pregnancy was devastating to Sarah Palin’s image, but it in fact made the base love Palin more.  Though now that they’re seeing that the young marriage they hoped for is drying up, perhaps that will change.


But there’s so much more fail to address.

In my research on young adults’ romantic relationships, many women report feeling peer pressure to avoid giving serious thought to marriage until they’re at least in their late 20s. If you’re seeking a mate in college, you’re considered a pariah, someone after her “MRS degree.” Actively considering marriage when you’re 20 or 21 seems so sappy, so unsexy, so anachronistic.

Well, it is sappy, unsexy, anachronistic and usually pretty stupid.  But I get the impression he thinks that perceptions and reality are different on this front, and they’re not.  Young people are right if they think that it’s a depressing waste of fleeting youth to marry and have kids instead of have some young adventures, and women are especially right if they realize that youthful marriage and child-bearing is going to mean that their career opportunities will slip from their fingers.  It’s not impossible, of course, to have it all.  But I wouldn’t count on it.

Those who do fear to admit it—it’s that scandalous.

I wouldn’t say scandalous so much as pitiable.  I remember the girls who wanted to marry young in college, and everyone felt like they were desperate and weird, not scandalous.  I just finished reading Regnerus’s book about teenage sexuality, and while the research was interesting, one issue I had with it was that he played this very trick often.  If he agreed with a teenager’s values (that it’s wrong to fuck, early marriage is desirable, girls who have sex are broken people, it’s best to wait until marriage), he tended to put it forth like it was a value springing from their deepest heart of hearts, and not something that they might be saying because they’re young and don’t know any better.  He reserved skepticism, however, for teenagers who said things like, “I’d like to know I’m sexually compatible with someone before marrying them,” even though I personally thought that kind of statement demonstrated maturity.

But our children now sense that marrying young may be not simply foolish but also wrong and socially harmful. And yet today, as ever, marriage wisely entered into remains good for the economy and the community, good for one’s personal well-being, good for wealth creation and, yes, good for the environment, too. We are sending mixed messages.

That’s not a mixed message.  People who suggest you wait until your late 20s to marry are upholding the value of marriage “wisely entered”.  That’s the point.  Marriage is a huge commitment, and leaving it is a giant headache.  So you want to enter it with more self-knowledge and maturity, because it significantly raises your chances of making it work.  The stats are behind this assumption—-if you wait until you’re 25 to marry, your odds of divorce are only 24%. People caution you to marry when you’re mature because they value marriage. 

This is not just an economic problem. It’s also a biological and emotional one. I realize that it’s not cool to say that, but my job is to map trends, not to affirm them. Marriage will be there for men when they’re ready. And most do get there. Eventually. But according to social psychologists Roy Baumeister and Kathleen Vohs, women’s “market value” declines steadily as they age, while men’s tends to rise in step with their growing resources (that is, money and maturation). Countless studies—and endless anecdotes—reinforce their conclusion.

I have no doubt that youth and money influence people’s decisions on who they marry, but personality, compatibility, and maturity are also factors.  He also brings up the fertility issue, which is both overblown (if it’s just a matter of declining egg supply in your 30s, apparently that means you usually just have to try harder—-other, more intractable forms of infertility as you age are often a matter of undiagnosed STDs, something that could be addressed with better screening instead of pushing people into marriages that run the risk of breaking up in a vale of tears), and also something that’s rarely balanced with mention of women’s desire to have quality children, not just quantity children.  We know what increases the chances of having healthy, well-educated kids—-giving them the sort of home that’s much easier to construct in your 30s than your teens.  Also, children enjoy stable marriages, which are more likely to happen if you marry later.

Regnerus admits that youthful marriage is more likely to end in divorce, then blows right past that to make some silly arguments.

First, what is considered “early marriage” by social scientists is commonly misunderstood by the public. The best evaluations of early marriage—conducted by researchers at the University of Texas and Penn State University—note that the age-divorce link is most prominent among teenagers (those who marry before age 20). Marriages that begin at age 20, 21 or 22 are not nearly so likely to end in divorce as many presume.

Sure—-every year you give it, the better your chances are.  But young women who resist marriage aren’t stupid.  It significantly clips your wings, starting with the amount of housework you suddenly have to do—-7 hours more a week on average.  And that’s just housework.  Being married means handing over a lot of yourself to a man, especially if you’re in your puppy years and haven’t learned to stand up for yourself yet.  Jessica had a great piece about “Against Love” where she talked about this.

But once I got over the initial shock of thinking of couplehood as something potentially limiting, I couldn’t get enough of the idea. I passed the book around to friends (especially those who liked to ask when I’d be getting married), showing them the section where Kipnis lists pages of answers to the question, what can’t you do because you’re in a couple?: “You can’t just walk out on your job or quit in a huff. You can’t make unilateral career decisions, or change jobs without extensive discussion and negotiation. You can’t have your own bank account.” She continues, “You can’t leave the dishes for later, wash the dishes badly, not use soap, drink straight from the container.” All of a sudden, it didn’t seem like such a bad idea to spend my energy on more selfish pursuits. I don’t think it was a coincidence that after I dropped my beau, I ended up cranking out my first book.

And that—-women writing books, women competing with men in the workforce—-is exactly what pieces like this are trying to assault without coming right out and saying it. 

More from Regnerus:

Marriage actually works best as a formative institution, not an institution you enter once you think you’re fully formed. We learn marriage, just as we learn language, and to the teachable, some lessons just come easier earlier in life.

First of all, the unformed nature of younger people is why youthful relationships fall apart so easily.  You grow as individuals, and odds are that you will grow apart.  If you marry when more fully formed, you can find someone you know you’re compatible with.

But I’d suggest that Regnerus, especially since he advises that only women marry young and therefore that they marry men significantly older, is not saying that people should be formed by marriage.  He’s saying women should be.  And the form that forming will take is obvious—-the more malleable you are, the more likely you are to give into the pressure to be the support system for you husband, to give up your hopes and dreams to support his.  The problem with older women (well, not problem—-I’d say solution!) is that they are set in their ways, and that means they have more bargaining power in their relationships.  If you already have your career, for instance, you know what you stand to lose if you give into the pressure to give it up.  But if you don’t have it yet, it makes it much easier to let your husband’s needs and desires dictate the entire relationship. 

But Regnerus plays this off like it’s “pooling”.

Married people earn more, save more and build more wealth compared with people who are single or cohabiting. (Say what you will about the benefits of cohabitation, it’s a categorically less stable arrangement, far more prone to division than marriage.) We can combine incomes while reducing expenses such as food, child care, electricity, gas and water usage. Marriage may be bourgeois, but it’s also the greenest of all social structures. Michigan State ecologists estimate that the extra households created by divorce cost the nation 73 billion kilowatt hours of electricity and more than 600 billion gallons of water in a year. That’s a mighty big carbon footprint created in the name of solitude.

Cohabitation might be less stable, but it still has those benefits.  For a social scientist, Regnerus is being a little less than thorough, too.  Would cohabiting couples suddenly have more stable relationships if they married?  Does the piece of paper confer magic benefits?  I would argue that cohabiting couples break up more than married couples, because more and more often, people only marry when they’re sure it’s stable.  Which is to say a couple who lives together that decides that their relationship is stable will marry, not that marriage makes relationships stable. 

Also, a lot of the “pooling” is actually an unpaid transfer of wealth from women to men in the form of labor.  Married men do make more, because they have women handling all the distractions in life for them—-they’ve even found that the more housework a wife does, the more money her husband makes.  This isn’t “pooling”, but yes, unpaid labor is cheaper than paid labor. 

It’s hard to imagine now that later marriage is the norm in the middle class, but one thing that feminists in the 60s and 70s agitated against was the way that early marriage was used to improve men’s careers on the backs of women, in the way that Regnerus is promoting without coming out and saying it.  For a lot of couples, the model was this—-meet and marry in college, perhaps because the woman got pregnant.  Now you have more responsibilities and need more income, and the “rational” thing to do is for the wife to drop out, take a low skill job and put her husband through school.  Her presumed reward for this sacrifice is the opportunity to be dependent on him, when he gets a high-paying job and she gets to be a housewife.  Of course women are better at marriage than men in this situation.  They don’t have a choice.  Employees often put more work into pleasing employers than the other way around. 

I have no doubt that early marriage would largely return us to these circumstances, because it still seems more “rational” for women to do most of the sacrificing in marriage, because men’s jobs are generally better paid and more prestigious.  People like to talk about how the emphasis on college and career-building has delayed marriage, but I’d argue that it’s women’s need for college and career-building more than men’s that makes this so. 

The deepest irony in this is that while early marriage especially is about transferring women’s labor over to men, the situation isn’t so great for men, either.  It’s not like men are any more eager to marry at 20 than women.  And now they don’t have to.  After all, the number one reason that people are marrying later is that they don’t have to get married because baby’s on the way anymore.  The birth control pill, abortion, and the growing acceptability of single motherhood means that men benefit, right along with women, from being able to marry because you want to, not because you got stuck.  This makes marriage much happier:

Not surprisingly, researchers in the ‘50s found that less than one in three married couples reported being happy or very happy with their relationship. Compare that to today, when 61 percent of married Americans report themselves to be “very happy” in their marriage.

Also, Regnerus is wrong if he thinks that early marriage is such an economic boon. From the same article, we find that one in four Americans in the 50s lived in poverty, and part of the reason was that youthful pregnancy and marriage clipped women’s wings, which meant that couples just had less income coming in.  We tend to think that people in the 50s did fine with single-income households, but obviously not.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:29 PM • (138) Comments

I totally agree with your arguments—Regnerus is an asshole, and it’s clear that all he wants to do is keep women down through marriage. However, I found your stance on young marriage to be overly hostile. I think it totally depends on the people involved in the marriage and their maturity levels upon entering it. Yes, it’s more likely that your marriage will last if you marry older, but that doesn’t mean NO young marriages survive, and referring to getting married young as stupid and unsexy is ridiculous.

Comment #1: ilikeringpops  on  04/27  at  01:45 PM

I have a lot of first cousins, all 10+ years older than me. Every single one of my female cousins married young (18-21), and began having children right away, so by the time they were in their early 30s, they all had kids in elementary or middle school. I also married young, but it’s been 10 years and we still haven’t had kids, and my cousins are fairly forthcoming about how they wish they’d waited too, at least to have kids, and maybe the married part also.

Comment #2: apsalar  on  04/27  at  01:46 PM

I may be giving Regnerus too much credit- but - I think it is really creepy when men advocate for “young women” (as a group) to behave in ways that would be considered a family tragedy or scandal if they happened to HIS OWN daughter.

Would Regnerus be thrilled if HIS DAUGHTER quit college at 19 or 20 to marry? Because she got pregnant? And she then had to work low-wage jobs for the rest of her life?

Would he be thrilled if his OWN daughter quit college to marry, say, one of his colleagues in a creepy May/December way?

Somehow, I doubt it.

Comment #3: KMTBERRY  on  04/27  at  01:50 PM

It’s not like men are any more eager to marry at 20 than women.

Hm. I think they are more eager to marry young than women, if they have a girlfriend. At 20 a man just isn’t that attractive on the dating scene—compared to his older peers, he is less mature and makes less money. The dating scene for a man who’s 20 (or, looking at the post-college scene, 22-23) is much more stark and bleak than it is for a woman of the same age. It strikes me that a man at that age would be more likely to want to keep his relationship and get married because this is as good as it’s going to get for him for many years. Meanwhile, I woman is going to see that there are plenty of other different available men who would be willing to date her, thus making her less likely to want to marry at 20.

Comment #4: Tyro  on  04/27  at  01:54 PM

It’s possible to hold together a young marriage, of course.  Less possible, but possible. But I don’t see the point in marrying young.  If you really think you’ll bet together in the future, why the rush?  Why not marry when you’re a little older?  If you think that it’s because your S.O. won’t be around then, you shouldn’t marry.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  01:55 PM

I do about 90% of the household chores and about 100% of renovation work. smile Did I mention my wife makes more than 2x my income? It’s amusing to see the conclusion hold true, only with the gender roles reversed!

We got together when I was 19 and she was 18, and cohabitated for 6 years before marriage. I’m interested in looking at the crosstabs and raw data in the studies you reference to find our own personal statistical likelihood of permanent marraige. smile

Comment #6: woolie  on  04/27  at  01:57 PM

I also don’t see why it’s ridiculous to say it’s stupid or unsexy.  Young marriage is the desire of fundies who prize it precisely because they think marriage means an end to your sexy fun times.  Also, if you can’t see the logic of waiting a few years to see if your S.O. sticks around before marrying, then you do have stupidity issues. You may not be a stupid person, but you are making a stupid decision.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  01:59 PM

note to self: avoid smileys on pandagon as they transform into awful gifs

Comment #8: woolie  on  04/27  at  02:00 PM

The guy’s at UT Austin’s soc department, so maybe this is an opportunity for a first-hand follow-up interview/debate. My question: “As a university professor who’s observed the under-25 crowd first-hand, how can you possibly think that the majority of people in that cohort (especially those attending a major university) are ready to enter into a life-altering and difficult-to-escape contract like marriage?”

I mean, really, most Americans undergo a major shift in personality and goals around age 25 (give or take a few years), so chances are that people younger than that don’t have the self-knowledge necessary to enter into a long-term marriage, let alone have kids (which seems to be the under-played 800-lb gorilla with a ticking biological clock that’s sitting in the middle of Regnurus’ article).

Comment #9: Gracchus.  on  04/27  at  02:01 PM

But why wait? It’s unfortunate that the government presents married people with benefits the rest of the population isn’t privy to, but that’s a big reason a lot of people get married—health insurance, the right to be with your spouse in the hospital, etc.

Comment #10: ilikeringpops  on  04/27  at  02:02 PM

He also makes the irritating mistake that fundies do of assuming that cohabitation and marriage are mutually exclusive categories.  In reality, more and more couples do one then the other.  Conscientious dissenters like myself are outliers.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  02:05 PM

This guy isn’t quite as big an asshole as John “women go downhill from age 20” Derbyshire. But give him points for trying.

Comment #12: Bitter Scribe  on  04/27  at  02:06 PM

Perhaps, pops, a very small percentage of people have a strong need for those benefits at 22 that outstrips the major consideration of risking an ugly divorce, but not many.  A better bet at 20 would be to be in college or have a job and get health insurance through that.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  02:06 PM

BTW, Regnerus touts the fun-killing as a benefit of marriage, at the bottom. He thinks you can be married or be out having fun but not both. Like Gracchus said, because he apparently thinks you marry and have babies right away.  Not necessarily.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  02:08 PM

“—other, more intractable forms of infertility as you age are often a matter of undiagnosed STDs,”

That’s generally not true. The most common causes of infertility are PCOS and endometriosis, both of which have nothing to do with STDs whatsoever, but are mostly hereditary hormonal problems that usually show up around puberty. Age effects them only in that they often get worse over time without treatment.

Comment #15: Ashley  on  04/27  at  02:11 PM

But why wait? It’s unfortunate that the government presents married people with benefits the rest of the population isn’t privy to, but that’s a big reason a lot of people get married—health insurance, the right to be with your spouse in the hospital, etc.

Yeah, those are the justifications of a 20 year old who’s thinking of getting married. Please. It’s difficult enough to get a college student to keep getting his annual physical (paid for by parental or school insurance), let alone worry about the issues you mention.

And assuming that getting on a spousal health insurance plan is a motivating factor for entering into a marital contract, that’s not exactly a good thing. I wonder how Regnerus feels about green-card marriages if the bride is young (peachy-keen, I’m guessing).

Comment #16: Gracchus.  on  04/27  at  02:12 PM

It’s hard when you’re 20 to realize how much you age in dog years in the next decade.  You change SO much.  If not, you may have issues learning from experience.  I look at myself and my college boyfriend and what different people we are now than then, and I’m floored.  Thank god there was no pressure to marry at 20, or we’d be screwed.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  02:18 PM

One reason to marry young is for things like financial aid and health insurance. After talking with professors and several friends, it’s by no means unheard of for parents to pretty much abandon their college-aged daughters in an attempt to force them to stay home and not go to college. Due to the way the financial aid system is set up, you can not get financial aid as a 19 year old without your parent’s assistance, unless you’re married (or have a kid, or a ward of the courts, or a veteran). That and health insurance, if you marry someone who has a decent job.

My husband and I signed marriage papers when I was 21 and he was 23 so I could finish my education (I was forced ot take off two non-consecutive semesters due to lack of funding, which makes me look like a flake on paper and seriously curtailed any scholarships or grad school opportunities) and so I could have decent health insurance. I got a severely infected wisdom tooth at 20 which my parents refused to pay for and my then boyfriend-now husband did.

In short, if you don’t have any familial support it makes perfect economic sense to marry young.

We waited another 2 years before we did the ceremony/real marriage (we did not consider ourselves married when we signed the paper, though we legally were), and have been married for 2.5 or 4.5 years, depending on whether you’re talking legally or socially. It’s worked out wonderfully so far, but we both had somewhat non-traditional backgrounds and were/are more mature than most our age. Marriage was a very well thought out, long discussed, and sober decision on our part, even though we were in our early 20s. This wasn’t true of my parents’ marriage which occurred when my mom was 26 and my dad 30. Just saying.

Comment #18: Ashley  on  04/27  at  02:21 PM

“But why wait?”

Because divorce is a giant pain in the ass on top of generally being rather expensive?

If you’re in a situation where you’re already engaged and have a need for those marital perks, by all means, knock yourselves out, but most people are better off with a relationship that can be dissolved, should the need arise, without court involvement.

Comment #19: preying mantis  on  04/27  at  02:22 PM

That strikes me as less a reason to marry young than change the financial aid system.  Pretty much all legal pressures to get women into young marriages need to be rooted at as the anti-feminist throwbacks that they are.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  02:22 PM

Gracchus: health insurance and financial aid were why I got married young. We were talking marriage anyways, knew very much we wanted to live our lives together, but probably would have waited a few more years had I had any familial support whatsoever.

Comment #21: Ashley  on  04/27  at  02:23 PM

THANK YOU for this post, Amanda. I’m always arguing with this annoying, bigoted aunt of mine who thinks Young People These Days should get married early.

Here’s what she would say in response to the divorce statistic: “They’re just getting divorced because people EXPECT them to, because there’s all this modern prejudice against early marriage!”

My response to that is, of course, that your marriage can’t be that great if expectations are enough to make you divorce.

She also thinks young people are more likely to grow together than apart, which…simply isn’t true.

Comment #22: LR  on  04/27  at  02:23 PM

“That strikes me as less a reason to marry young than change the financial aid system.  Pretty much all legal pressures to get women into young marriages need to be rooted at as the anti-feminist throwbacks that they are. “

I agree totally. While I don’t regret marrying when I did, I strongly regret that I had to. I really truly wish I could have had a decent chance at an education and health care independent of my husband.

Comment #23: Ashley  on  04/27  at  02:24 PM

I like how Regnerus skips over the 10 to 15 years between one’s early 20’s and late 30’s. Either you’re in your early 20’s, happy, and fully fertile, or you’re a desperate, barren, late 30’s, career woman. What’s exactly is wrong with the average age of marriage being mid-20’s? It might mean, god forbid, that married women are waiting until they’re 27 or 28 before having their first child! That seems like the best of both worlds. Enough time for young adult exploration into self, education, and career, with ample fertility to boot.

Of course, Regnerus doesn’t mention the fact that women in their teens and early twenties have children all the time. They’re often single though, which doesn’t neatly fit into his worldview, so I guess that doesn’t count.

Comment #24: scantee  on  04/27  at  02:24 PM

Also, as always, I’m ecstatically happy for exceptions to rules, which you (so far) are, Ashley.  Doesn’t mean the rule is beyond critique.  As you yourself say, you’re the exception.  And you yourself realized it, because you tried to minimize the impact of marrying so young.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  02:26 PM

I just want to say that the “market value” thing is beyond disturbing to me. I realize that still applies in some countries, but come on.

Comment #26: BrianX  on  04/27  at  02:27 PM

god, seriously, it hasn’t even been a decade yet and i look back at 20 and cringe.  the personal development that occurred in me from 20-25 alone is enough to be glad i wasn’t stupid enough to marry any of the fucktards i dated in college.

i’m hopeful that the average age of marriage is on the rise.  anecdotal, obviously, but both of the friends i had in college who married at 20-21 are now divorced.  the marriages lasted two years or less.  i think watching a really close friend make what you KNOW, even if your own youthfully idiotic state, is a terrible decision is one of the hardest things to endure.  thankfully we can joke about it now that she’s a 24-year-old divorcee, but that was a nightmare to get through.  not because i didn’t like the guy she married or anything, but because i knew they were just way too young.

Comment #27: chareth cutestory  on  04/27  at  02:28 PM

I’m just wondering where gay marriage enters into the equation. Silly me. Today I posted on a gay friend who is marrying his partner of 14 years. He e-mailed us as to why getting married was so important to him.

I daresay you will not find this kind of response from the lips of a 20-year-old girl.

Comment #28: SouthernBeale  on  04/27  at  02:29 PM

Gracchus: health insurance and financial aid were why I got married young. We were talking marriage anyways, knew very much we wanted to live our lives together, but probably would have waited a few more years had I had any familial support whatsoever.

Well, first, it sounds like you and your spouse had a maturity level lacking in most undergraduates. And second, I have to agree with Amanda (and you) that the pressure to get married in your case came more from screwed-up financial-aid and health-insurance systems—an unfortunate status quo that I’m sure suits Mark Regnerus very well.

Comment #29: Gracchus.  on  04/27  at  02:31 PM

ilikeringpops

While I appreciate any impulse to complicate thinking and look for nuance, Amanda rightfully assumes her readership knows she’s talking generalities and stats for rhetorical sake.  When I read things like “married women can’t have their own bank accounts” (via Jessica) or “married women take on more of the household chores”, I understand (as a married woman who keeps her money and retirement savings separate from her husband’s, and who only does 50% of all domestic work in her very equal partnership) that Amanda isn’t talking about the exceptions like me who consciously strived and partner-selected for maintained independence. She’s talking Bulk of Stats, and that’s acceptable and accurate.

As an aside, I tend to think that the more “gendered” a couple is, the more likely it is for the wife to get subsumed and/or overloaded—the more so when kids arrive (though I’m under no illusion that, as equitable as the housework load is for some childless marrieds, injecting offspring into the mix will fast change that for most wives).

Comment #30: Ranylt  on  04/27  at  02:32 PM

This is not just an economic problem. It’s also a biological and emotional one. I realize that it’s not cool to say that, but my job is to map trends, not to affirm them. Marriage will be there for men when they’re ready. And most do get there. Eventually. But according to social psychologists Roy Baumeister and Kathleen Vohs, women’s “market value” declines steadily as they age, while men’s tends to rise in step with their growing resources (that is, money and maturation). Countless studies—and endless anecdotes—reinforce their conclusion.

I just love when these tools cloak their prescriptions in the language of objective observation.  And how, pray tell, does marriage stave off women’s supposed decline in market value?  I’m 40, hence probably a marital has-been in the eyes of someone like Regnerus.  But you know what?  If I’d gotten married at 19 or 20, I’d still be 40 now!  Instead of my current life, where I enjoy freedom from responsibility (except for my dogs) and financial worry, I could be married with kids, having put my life and career on hold to support my husband and be the caretaker (if the ‘traditional marriage’ route was the one I pursued rather than a more modern one).  I could be facing the prospect of being dumped because my now higher-market-value husband has decided to trade up for a newer model.  Which doesn’t mean that my particular choice is the better one (or that the traditional marriage route inevitably leads to being putting your life on hold and being dumped), but it certainly isn’t the most pitiable one either.

Comment #31: DonnaDiva  on  04/27  at  02:34 PM

So Regnerus is arguing that women are happier when they have fewer choices in life. Yeah, they’d probably just screw everything up anyway.

It never ceases to amaze me the way the Regneruses of the world put the cart before the horse: Good, happy marriages are good for society! Therefore more people should get married! I’m gonna go out for a walk and marry someone. It’ll all work out great, apparently. Just like my first marriage!

Those who do fear to admit it—it’s that scandalous.

You can’t read a piece of reactionary bullshit these days without running across some variation of this: “My desperate conformity SCANDALIZES you! You cannot HANDLE my stifling small-mindedness! Oh, you’re walking away from me? You can’t deal with an open, honest discussion of the fact that you’re stupid because you don’t want to live an ancient ideal that never really existed? Be that way, then. Silence me.”

Comment #32: RickMassimo  on  04/27  at  02:39 PM

We tend to think that people in the 50s did fine with single-income households, but obviously not.

I blame ‘50s television (particularly the sitcoms) in good part for this erroneous view.  Both of my grandmothers worked full time jobs in the 50s in addition to being mothers.  The same held for all of the women my grandmothers knew.

Comment #33: Richard Goblin  on  04/27  at  02:39 PM

I got engaged to my college girlfriend.  Then she dumped me.  It caused me to reflect.

I think what it takes for a marriage to work is that you need to know what path you’re on, and you need to find someone who wants to share that path with you.  And people in their early 20’s have unrealistic expectations about what path they’re lives are going to take, and it takes a few years out of school to really figure it out.  And the odds that two people who get together when they’re 20 will make it through to 25 or 26 and find that they both want their lives to take the same path are pretty slim.

I guess the conservative response is that marriage sometimes takes sacrifice.  But I think if you wait and figure out yourself first, then you can meet someone who you can have a relationship with where you can both realize yourselves.

Comment #34: Wallace  on  04/27  at  02:41 PM

My wife and I finally tied the knot at when I was 35 and she 36.  My sister married at 30.  My brother was married at 24.  Guess which one of us is on the second marriage?

His first one was to his university girlfriend, with his proposal being made in their final year before they graduated.  They’d never actually lived together until after the marriage and they’d bought their first house, and it was over within 18 months.  It was a case of extreme personality conflict that they never realized until they had to deal with each other day after day.

His second wedding was when he was 35 (coincidentally), after several years of living together with his current wife and two kids.  I suspect this one will last much longer.

Comment #35: KeithM  on  04/27  at  02:42 PM

So does he approve of same sex marriages as long as they’re in their young 20’s?

Comment #36: cynickal  on  04/27  at  02:42 PM

I do have to say that my daughter (due in 6 weeks) will never have to marry young, and will not at all be encouraged to do so.

Comment #37: Ashley  on  04/27  at  02:43 PM

I just want to say that the “market value” thing is beyond disturbing to me. I realize that still applies in some countries, but come on.

There are a whole bunch of disturbing anxieties underlying this push for (heterosexual) girls to get married early. One of them, I’m afraid, is the idea that “Western” (read: caucasian, specifically Judeo-Christian) birthrates are declining in the developed world, while other birthrates are rising throughout the entire world—especially in benighted cultures where “market value” for young girls is still an acceptable concept.

American Xtian fantasists—instead of stopping to consider that one of the reasons these cultures are so benighted is because they devalue independent and self-sufficient women—instead see returning Western women to a state of chattel as a way to compete in the great 21st-century baby rally. They’re not advocating going completely medieval, though—as with their economic agenda, they believe the ideal state of women’s rights existed somewhere around 1895.

Homsexual marriage doesn’t count in this worldview, of course, since it doesn’t result in “natural” reproduction (as defined by the Invisible Bearded Sky Man™ and His Earthly franchisees).

Comment #38: Gracchus.  on  04/27  at  02:45 PM

“—other, more intractable forms of infertility as you age are often a matter of undiagnosed STDs,”

I’ll second that this is not true. The vast majority of infertility is due to things like PCOS, which start early and get worse as you age. Also, male factor issues are a big cause of infertility that are not talked about publicly so much.

I think this guy is an ass and I couldn’t get past “market value” with him. And I certainly don’t think people should get married/have children before they are ready. But I do think that it is a disservice to women who want to become mothers (not that women HAVE to, but those who WANT to) to tell them they can wait to have kids well into their thirties without consequence. There are lots of consequences to waiting till you are in your thirties to have kids. Besides the infertility problems (and if by “trying harder” you mean a shitload of doctor’s appointments and $$ spent on IF treatments…you are trying a HELL of a lot harder) but also increased risk of birth defects, miscarriage, and maternal health risks.

Even if you adopt, which is great, you are dealing with what I call the “energy factor”. Raising children would have been SO MUCH EASIER from an energy standpoint to do when I was in my 20’s than now. I am almost 40, with small children. I should have been doing this part when I was 25-30. Now is when I would have been good at dealing with teenagers.

Which is not to say that you should rush to get married early when you are not mature enough or financially stable enough to do so. But you don’t need to get married ( or even a man for that matter) to have children. If you really want to be a mom, go to college, get a good job with benefits and pay off your debts. Then start thinking seriously about how and when you want to have kids. Don’t think that you have all the way up until you are 45 and go through menopause to do it. You probably don’t, at least not without greatly increased risks, financial investment and physical hardship. Have a plan.

Comment #39: Lexie  on  04/27  at  02:46 PM

Some points at random…talk amongst y’selves as desired.

* Last week, I attended a 25-year reunion, which included a guy who hooked up with his eventual wife in his freshman year. Whe she got wind of our plans for the weekend, she wrote us all a hilarious e-mail, patiently reminding us of how inadvisable it would be if we tried to get away with any of the stupid shit we were pulling back in the day. And she remembered it all, in embarassing detail.
These two, I think are some of those ‘outliers’—as a rule of thumb, I am 100% behind Amanda on this—but I suspect that most of us who knew them at the time figured they were made for each other.

* After dating for the last 2 years, my GF and I have now graduated to co-fiance status. Here we go—dealing with wedding plans, our own apprehensions as well as those of our families, issues re: living arrangements, etc. etc. She’s 52, I’m 54, and we’re both far removed from sex-symbol status (if we—or at least I—was/were ever much of that). She is the epitome of a morning person, whereas I’m a confirmed nightowl, and I am a hard-core DFH, while she is (at best) what I would call a “libertarian feminist.” So…why are we doing this? Follow along, now…

...Because she said she simply wasn’t going to remain the “weekend girlfriend” forever.
...Because I eventually couldn’t see any reason why I shouldn’t abide by her wishes.
...Because I feel lucky as shit that she cares about me.
...And I feel ‘lucky as shit’ because:

—she’s a successful, intelligent woman with an admirable career.
—she can tell me exactly what she wants and why, without ever making me feel like it’s “her way or the highway”.
—she is always saying exactly that thing which will make me feel like a million bucks.
—killer chocolate chip cookies.
—to be blunt, she is wonderful in the sack.

[ahem] Of course, I’m bragging here. But I think we serve as an example of what nice things can be there in a relationship later on in your life, even if it’s long past age 20, as the dipshit Mr. Regnerus would apparently prefer. If we had met at that age, I’m fairly sure that neither one of us would have displayed any of the positives that we now see in each other, whether that’s success, talent, or a measure of responsibility and maturity.

We now return you to, etc. etc.

Comment #40: Captain Goto  on  04/27  at  02:47 PM

“I think what it takes for a marriage to work is that you need to know what path you’re on, and you need to find someone who wants to share that path with you. “

This is part of why I believe it should be harder to get married. In my state you only need 24 hours between the license and the ceremony. There should be questionnaires saying you’ve discussed things like future goals, living location, children (amount, spacing, when to start, raising), finances, etc. So few people I know that get married have had those long conversations, and almost invariably the marriage breaks up.

Also, a waiting period between license and signing would be a great thing. Something like 6 months.

Comment #41: Ashley  on  04/27  at  02:48 PM

But Lexie, women who “have a plan” regarding marriage and kids are freaky, crazy bitches. Don’t you watch Tough Love?

Comment #42: Mighty Ponygirl  on  04/27  at  02:49 PM

“That strikes me as less a reason to marry young than change the financial aid system.  Pretty much all legal pressures to get women into young marriages need to be rooted at as the anti-feminist throwbacks that they are.”

I think that one is less a legal pressure to get women into young marriages than it is pressure to get families to contribute to the college education of a legal adult.  It’s a bullshit part of the system, but young men are as vulnerable to it in theory if not in practice.

Comment #43: preying mantis  on  04/27  at  02:51 PM

Marriage actually works best as a formative institution, not an institution you enter once you think you’re fully formed. We learn marriage, just as we learn language, and to the teachable, some lessons just come easier earlier in life.

So does enlisting in the military.  Which is why the military greatly prefers recruits aged 17 to 19.  You are far easier to mold into an obedient GI at that age.  But you can be an officer by going to a service academy or ROTC in college OR you can apply to OTS after graduating.  If you’re a doctor or nurse the age limit is very high for entry.  This parallels Regnerus’ view of marriage.  For the officers/men the military/marriage will be there when you are ready.  For the enlisted/women, the shelf life is much shorter.

Comment #44: DonnaDiva  on  04/27  at  02:53 PM

People should have been self-sufficient for a least a couple of years before they get married, so they don’t stay in a bad relationship for economic reasons, or because they lack self-confidence.

Other than that: some young marriages last forever while some do not survive the birth of the first child. Pick someone flexible who can grow with you. Imagine every trait the other person has, except exaggerated.

Real, acid tests of flexibility: Go camping with the other person for two weeks, and see if you don’t want to wring their necks by that point. Or, go hostelling in Europe for three weeks.

Comment #45: Hector B.  on  04/27  at  02:53 PM

DonnaDiva, that’s an excellent parallel.

Comment #46: MissPrism  on  04/27  at  02:58 PM

we can joke about it now that she’s a 24-year-old divorcee

I think we need to purge the term ‘divorcee’ from the language. 

How ever much acceptance divorce now has in society (and thank the gods that it has a lot!), there is still some stigma attached to it.  I would even guestimate that in some quarters there is still a lot of stigma attached to being divorced.  For this reason, I think it best that we do not label someone who has gotten a divorce as a ‘divorcee’.  I think ‘single’ is the appropriate way to describe the marital status of someone who has gotten a divorce.  (This begs the question of defining someone through their marital status but that is another issue for another time.)

I would also add that people who are divorced often wanted to end the marriage they were in.  In a perverse way, words like ‘divorcee’ serve only to continue a marriage that is now over.

Comment #47: Richard Goblin  on  04/27  at  02:58 PM

I used to work as a financial aid officer, but my kids weren’t really kids, but grad students.  So I never dealt with the emancipation issue.  I did, however, receive training for it, now that I think about it.  You aren’t actually completely closed off from getting financial aid if your parents won’t help and you’re unmarried.  But you do have to petition for an exception.  Which meant getting a letter from a person or two who knows your parents detailing why your parents won’t support you.  Ministers and former teachers were your best bets. 

The thing is, most 20-year-old college students aren’t in relationships that could be converted to marriage, so really, the idea of just telling them to marry never even came up.  Nor should it, because that’s fucked up.

Comment #48: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  02:59 PM

My partner and I entered our “cohabitation agreement” when I was twenty years old. (In the eyes of the Canadian government we are civil union due to the length of our cohabitation.)  And I would say that things are going pretty well, my character flaws haven’t changed much lol.

That said however I would NEVER recommend to somebody that they take the same path that I did.  The only reason that we did ourselves was due to extenuating circumstances; the death of a family member and the ensuing money problems thereafter.  Of course knowing that we jumped in early probably did help our chances as we knew to give each other the extra space to develop ourselves.  That and the fact that my partner could have “understanding” listed as his number one personality trait.

Comment #49: hypatia  on  04/27  at  03:04 PM

“So does he approve of same sex marriages as long as they’re in their young 20’s?”

Only lesbian marriage, and only if they promise to oppress the hell out of each other.

“Also, a waiting period between license and signing would be a great thing. Something like 6 months.”

Unfortunately, it would completely hose those of us who had to do the “zomg need marital rights now” thing.  Generally speaking, I’m uncomfortable with treating adults like they need special supervision by the state when it comes to deeply personal matters because otherwise they might do something they regret.  It’s paternalistic, it has a disturbing tendency to let religious groups get their foot in the state-sponsored door, and it tends to be pretty useless at preventing people from doing things they later regret.

Comment #50: preying mantis  on  04/27  at  03:09 PM

According to the CDC, STDs are the most common preventable cause of infertility.  The Mayo Clinic concurs—-with fallopian tube-based problems, which are a major reason for IVF, chlamydia is the number one cause.  75% of women have no symptoms, which means it can go for years without being noticed.  There are many different reasons for fertility problems, but when we candidly dismiss the impact of STDs, we aren’t doing women any favors.

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  03:12 PM

Amanda, I was 19 when my parents ditched me. I went to my financial aid office, explained my situation, and was told, and I quote, “you have no options at this university.” The woman told me that I needed to be 24, pregnant, married, a grad student, ward of the courts, or had letters from 3 authority figures detailing my parents’ abuse and why I should be considered emancipated. Of course, because my abuse didn’t start till I was older and was primarily mental, most “authority figures” didn’t read what happened to me as abuse. The school guidance counselor didn’t help, none of my teachers noticed, and I didn’t see a doctor so it’s not like I had them either.

And that’s not getting into the fact that my professors thought I was a flake because I had to take off two semesters. Though the one I explained the situation to told me that she sees that type of thing FAR more often with daughters than sons.

Comment #52: Ashley  on  04/27  at  03:20 PM

I’m sure of it.  The emancipation paperwork is a horrible burden and I’m sure that many a bureaucrat either doesn’t know about or care about going through with it.

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  03:23 PM

But Lexie, women who “have a plan” regarding marriage and kids are freaky, crazy bitches. Don’t you watch Tough Love?

Yeah, I know. I’m probably a bit of an outlier in this in that I never really associated being a mother with marriage. So for me, having a plan meant at what point was I going to get serious and take action to have kids, how was I going to do it (adoption, etc.), and what kind of support system did I need (room with another single mom, join a single mothers by choice support group, etc.).

It ended up (because of circumstances too detailed to go into here) that my children have two male “father figures” in their life that they see several times a week and that I am good friends with (as well as many more female adult friends/family members), but as of now, I’ve never been married.

Unhinging oneself from the marriage/biological clock timebomb has been one of the most freeing things I’ve ever done. I have been in a long-term relationship now, and he came in knowing I had kids and wanting to be a part of the whole package, and I came in already being a mom and not having any sort of time/marriage pressure type of thing with this relationship.

Comment #54: Lexie  on  04/27  at  03:24 PM

women’s “market value” declines steadily as they age, while men’s tends to rise in step with their growing resources (that is, money and maturation). Countless studies—and endless anecdotes—reinforce their conclusion.

Oh whatever.  Men my own age wouldn’t even look in my direction through high school and college.  It’s only now that I’m nearing 30 that I’m finally managing to date men who aren’t 10-15 years older than I am.

Comment #55: keshmeshi  on  04/27  at  03:26 PM

We got married young, I guess (23 me and 21 him), except that in our families, that wasn’t considered marrying young.  My grandparents had started in on me about marrying and having kids before the ink on my high school diploma was dry.  Waiting until I was 23 WAS practically a scandal in my mom’s side of the family. 

This Friday is our 15th anniversary, and given that we are the only couple out of the seven who got married at about that time and at roughly that age, we are also statistical outliers. 

Oh yeah, the reason we got married when we did:  Financial aid. My dad had been laid off and my folks hadn’t been planning on helping me out anyway.  But it’s stuck so far.

Comment #56: GeekGirlsRule  on  04/27  at  03:27 PM

Oh, regarding emancipation. I did it at 18. It was a bitch but I finally was able to get financial aid on my own. But it is very demoralizing to have to explain 30 times to strangers that your parents won’t pay for college and you don’t really have a good explanation as to why.

Comment #57: Lexie  on  04/27  at  03:28 PM

When I was at university, I knew a number of young women who wanted to get married either during or just after graduation, some of whom I dated. They never wanted to marry me (something I’m rather thankful for now), because they considered me a bit of a flake. Of the ones I dated or knew well, none are still married to their first spouse, and most who got married within a year or two of their first divorce are either single now or on husband number 3. I don’t know if it was social pressure or some other issue that caused them to marry so quickly, but some had parents that got married young as well.

Comment #58: mndean  on  04/27  at  03:31 PM

The average age of American men marrying for the first time is now 28. That’s up five full years since 1970 and the oldest average since the Census Bureau started keeping track. If men weren’t pulling women along with them on this upward swing, I wouldn’t be complaining.

The age gap between spouses is narrowing: Marrying men and women were separated by an average of more than four years in 1890 and about 2.5 years in 1960. Now that figure stands at less than two years. I used to think that only young men—and a minority at that—lamented marriage as the death of youth, freedom and their ability to do as they pleased. Now this idea is attracting women, too.

Why, offhand, is my first thought “Is this guy actually lamenting younger women not marrying? And large age gaps?

Creepy dude is creepy.

Comment #59: StarStorm  on  04/27  at  03:32 PM

In reading the Regnerus piece, I did not see a categorical advocacy for marrying earlier.  Rather, the op-ed was directed toward a pretty specific situation, where individuals in their early 20’s have the wherewithal and desire to marry, but are discouraged from it by their parents and friends.  Regnerus’ point was directed toward us, as a society, to not discourage these people, since, even given the risks, they had significant rewards to gain from early(ish) marriage.

Comment #60: biwah  on  04/27  at  03:32 PM

Amanda, I tend to focus on the non-preventable causes of infertility because a) they’re more common (PCOS effects 5% of women, endometriosis another 5%, hypothyroidism 3% of people), and b) there’s a lot of self-blame amongst infertile couples. Lots and lots of “what ifs.” “What if I wasn’t so fat (a symptom of PCOS and hypothyroidism)” “What if I hadn’t had that abortion” “What if I hadn’t used birth control” “What if I hadn’t waited until I was 30” etc. etc. etc.

Plus, the 3 causes I listed above effect the general health of women but are often dismissed or ignored by doctors because of bias against women’s health problems. Both PCOS and hypothyroidism cause, amongst other serious health issues, weight gain. Women (like myself) will go into the doctor with symptoms of these diseases and be told to go away until they lose weight. Which the disease prevents. Doctors and society will essentially use fat hate to browbeat infertile women when it’s even more ridiculous than in other circumstances. And we all know how seriously doctors take painful heavy periods.

I can’t find rates on what percentage of women have contracted chlamydia or what percentage of infertile couples it plays a role in, but I would be surprised if it was more than 5%. The vast majority of infertiles I know are dealing with the 3 above listed causes.

Comment #61: Ashley  on  04/27  at  03:33 PM

Go camping with the other person for two weeks, and see if you don’t want to wring their necks by that point. Or, go hostelling in Europe for three weeks.

Or better yet, go backpacking through a developing country.  Camping or traveling through Europe don’t carry the same risk of getting sick, which to me is the most important test of a relationship.  If your partner goes sightseeing while you’re laid up with amoebic dysentery or malaria, run for the hills.

Comment #62: keshmeshi  on  04/27  at  03:35 PM

Lexie, from what I understand emancipation rules changed in the late 90s to become far stricter. I had several people tell me that I only had to fill out a form and be listed as independent on my taxes for a year, but that is absolutely impossible as of 2003.

Comment #63: Ashley  on  04/27  at  03:35 PM

<>What if I wasn’t so fat (a symptom of PCOS </i>

I’d think that facial hair and failure to menstruate would send a woman to her doctor before she even tried to have children.

Comment #64: Hector B.  on  04/27  at  03:39 PM

PCOS is a very very weird disease and many PCOSers don’t have the classic symptoms. FOr instance, I have PCOS but I don’t have irregular periods or facial hair. My biggest symptoms were unexplained weight gain, extreme fatigue and brainfog, weird hunger/blood sugar issues, recurrent pregnancy loss and ovary pain. It wasn’t until they shoved a camera up my crotch and then tested my insulin that they figured out I have it.

The skin/hair issues I have are very minor and were easily dismissed. I have some belly hair and a few small patches of acanthosis nigricans (google it). My PCOS is overall very mild, but it was enough to pretty much ruin my life.

Comment #65: Ashley  on  04/27  at  03:44 PM

Funny, but how many other people have noticed the apparent association between average marriage age and divorce rate in the US and Canada?

Seems the LOWER the average age of marriage, the higher the divorce rate.

But that has to be because women are not doing it right, naturally.

Comment #66: Ms Kate  on  04/27  at  03:52 PM

Rather, the op-ed was directed toward a pretty specific situation, where individuals in their early 20’s have the wherewithal and desire to marry, but are discouraged from it by their parents and friends

Yes, heaven forfend that young people take sensible advice from parents and friends (e.g. completing education and becoming financially independent before contemplating marriage, per Regnurus, and also knowing who the heck you are as an individual). ‘Cause, y’know, divorce seldom happens, especially to 20-year-old kids who have the wherewithal (“we’re legal!”) and desire (“we’re in lurrrvvve!”).

Regnerus’ point was directed toward us, as a society, to not discourage these people, since, even given the risks, they had significant rewards to gain from early(ish) marriage.

No, in terms of significant rewards he claims it’s good for the economy and community (and, tangentially, the environment). He never really makes a compelling case for personal well-being beyond (state-defined) financial savings, mainly because it’s not his main concern. Personal well-being resulting from a relationship (e.g. the “simple affection” he mentions) need not require the approval of either state or church.

And that’s generously putting aside the patriarchal creepiosity that StarStorm correctly perceived in the article:

Why, offhand, is my first thought “Is this guy actually lamenting younger women not marrying? And large age gaps?

Comment #67: Gracchus.  on  04/27  at  03:53 PM

I’d think that facial hair and failure to menstruate would send a woman to her doctor before she even tried to have children.

And if that doctor is like many doctors in the past experiences of women I have known with the disorder, that doctor might give her a lecture about being fat - either not knowing or caring about PCOS and how the fat is a symptom and not a cause.

I can only hope that increased awarness of diabetes and infertility and better requirements for continued training by every doctor have gotten rid of the abusive stupidity many women with PCOS once faced.

Comment #68: Ms Kate  on  04/27  at  03:56 PM

The notion that marriage and parenting = no fun is itself a big part of the cultural conspiracy against pleasure, autonomy, community and ponies in America. Seriously, one thing I took from a brief sojourn in Old Yurp is that dirty hippydom is much stronger there for the presence of genuinely multi-generational movements and communities. Young and old mingle at pubs, raves and those quaint old-fashioned bricks-and-mortar “demonstrations” they so love over there. Here in familyvaluestan, we tend to maintain a pretty rigid divide between the olds and the young, policed by our OCD habit of picking relentlessly at generational differences real or imagined, our conception of pair-bonding and child-rearing as a sort of dreary afterlife in which we cease to be social actors in order to be better worker-drones and authoritarian parental units, and the absence of common venues.

Comment #69: septic tank  on  04/27  at  03:56 PM

But that has to be because women are not doing it right, naturally.

It’s also because those gosh-darned secular humanists stubbornly insist on separating church from state. I mean, look at Middle Eastern and Central Asian countries, where the average age of marriage and the divorce rates are low. It’s win-win (assuming you’re a man aged 30+).

Comment #70: Gracchus.  on  04/27  at  04:01 PM

My parents married young (19 and 21), and that’s one reason they warned me against even considering it. They’d been there.

Comment #71: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  04:01 PM

And if that doctor is like many doctors in the past experiences of women I have known with the disorder, that doctor might give her a lecture about being fat

Wow. That doctor should not be allowed to practice, at least not on women.

Comment #72: Hector B.  on  04/27  at  04:03 PM

<u>Also, a waiting period between license and signing would be a great thing. Something like 6 months.</u>

Funny, that’s one of the big differences between TX and CA:

Waiting Period in Texas:

The 72 hours (3 days) waiting period in Texas can be waived for active duty military personnel.

TX also has premarital classes, as the page above notes.

What should you consider if marrying in CA?

Call for Appointment:
It is recommended that you call the California County or City Clerk’s office to see if they suggest setting an appointment. You could find yourselves in a long line with as much as a 2 hour wait without an appointment in some California locales.

We’re not quite Las Vegas, but you know us Westerners, always in a hurry. wink

We do have proxy marriages,  for military personnel on active duty.

And be prepared:

Fees:
It will cost you $45.00+ to get married in California. The cost of receiving a marriage license varies from county to county and some California counties will only accept cash ... so don’t leave home without some cash!

Comment #73: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  04/27  at  04:03 PM

But according to social psychologists Roy Baumeister and Kathleen Vohs, women’s “market value” declines steadily as they age, while men’s tends to rise in step with their growing resources (that is, money and maturation). Countless studies—and endless anecdotes—reinforce their conclusion.

Plenty have studies have also shown that this situation is not biological and is due to social gender roles.  If a woman’s only option for survival is to be dependent on a man, then it makes sense for her to value a man who can support her financially.  It also makes men realize their power so they can demand women are more physically attractive and more obedient.  However, this situation is rapidly changing.  Now that women are more free to pursue their own careers instead of choosing between trophy wife and laundress, women’s priorities in a husband have changed drastically.  It is now common for women to value looks in a boyfriend more than money.  That’s probably why this guy is having such a fit.  Women no longer need to desperately cling to a man just to have food and shelter, and so men are losing their power to buy wives who are much younger than them.

Both of my grandmothers worked full time jobs in the 50s in addition to being mothers.  The same held for all of the women my grandmothers knew.

This is pretty common.  Both of my grandmothers had to work, though not when their children were very young.  One grandfather was blind and the other was working in an industry that went through a recession.  Still, it’s not like either of my grandmothers had fulfilling careers.  One of them was a janitor at a local school and the other one did other people’s laundry.  They just didn’t have the education available to them to get better jobs to support their families.

Comment #74: bananacat  on  04/27  at  04:03 PM

Lexie, from what I understand emancipation rules changed in the late 90s to become far stricter.

Not from my perspective within the system.  What Lexie describes is right.  There are some ways to do it swiftly, but mostly it involved bringing letters from respectable people to vouch for your parents’ deadbeatery.  Now, every school does things a little differently, and you were were supposed to do everything in your power to get the kid and the parents to work it out.  Which I thought was fucked up, and was glad to be spared that.

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  04:05 PM

I had my first serious boyfriend was 17 and he was 19 and we met at community college.  I actually loved him and I guess I always will, but I am so glad we didn’t marry young.  We talked about marriage and agreed to do it “some day”.  I figured that if we were really meant to be together, then we’d be just as ready for marriage after college.  I was a pretty wise teenager.  Then I left for a traditional college and we both changed so much over the next five years.  We kept in touch, but the man I fell in love with just isn’t the man he is now, and I’m sure he feels the same way about me.  We ended our relationship on good terms, but I am so glad that we decided not to get married.  We’re not the same people that we were 5 years ago when we made our marriage pact.

Comment #76: bananacat  on  04/27  at  04:10 PM

There also seems to be an assumption by the Right that women are spending their late teens and early 20’s turning down perfectly good proposals of marriage from decent hard working chaps.  I certainly wasn’t most of my female friends weren’t either.  However according to the right the increasing age of both men and women when they get married is the fault of us selfish women.  I for one would like to think of it as being picky.

Fertility may decrease with age but it does not necessarily mean that once you are over 35 your chances of getting pregnant easily completely disappear.  I was picky about the kind of man I wanted to marry and have a family.  I didn’t meet my husband until I was 36, we got married when I was 38 and at the grand age of 39 and three quarters I am expecting my first child in about 5 weeks time.  Now I’m an outlier in that it took us no time at all to get pregnant for which I’m eternally grateful, but being pregnant at my age is not actually that uncommon.  Yes I’m knackered half the time and perhaps I would have had far more energy 10 15 years ago but 10 15 years ago the men I dated were not suitable husband material let alone father material. 

I live in the UK. under the NHS maternity care is midwife led for normal low risk pregnancies.  Where I am, my age isn’t considered a risk factor and as everything else has been text book so I haven’t yet seen an obstetrician and may not do so until the delivery suite if then, but if I was under 16 my age would be considered a risk factor and all my anti natal care would have been done through the obstetrician.  Youth does not confer protection against risk in pregnancy.

I’m just one person I buck the trend for both marriage and pregnancy so this is just my penneth worth but blokes like Regnerus really annoy me, women are not commodities, we have worth beyond our ability to bear children and play the perfect housewife.  Like men and good whiskey we improve with age and experience, but I guess that’s what he doesn’t like.

Oh and another great thing about being the older bride and the older mum I’ve found is that you know your own mind much more and quite frankly don’t give a shit what anyone else thinks if it’s something that really matters to you.

Comment #77: fluffypinkduck  on  04/27  at  04:13 PM

I haven’t read all of the comments due to lack of time but I think that pieces like this garbage are arriving exactly on schedule. Every single time (and I do mean every time) the economy is in the crapper, out come the thinly disguised pieces from wingnuts determined to shove middle class white women back into their little boxes of domesticity where they are expected to procreate until their uterus’ give up in exhaustion. It’s always your (white women) fault when the much more deserving men can’t find jobs or you don’t want to marry them because you think you can do better. And no, this crap is not aimed at all women. The wingnuts want every women of color to work all the time and have less children.

Comment #78: DC Fem  on  04/27  at  04:18 PM

The wingnuts want every women of color to work all the time and have less children.

Spot on (at least in terms of the wingnuts I’ve brushed up against).

Comment #79: Ranylt  on  04/27  at  06:36 PM

All of my friends who got married young are now divorced and usually working on their second marriage.  Seriously, I know a good *dozen* of them - white, middle-class, got married right out of college and are now divorced - men and women both.  I feel like my decision to wait until 32 was a good one.  I’m still floored by the one that only lasted six months, though.  I mean really, you live together for two years and get divorced six MONTHS after the wedding?  Big-pain-in-the-ass Bridezilla wedding, of course, but I doubt anyone’s surprised by that.

Comment #80: Mimi  on  04/27  at  07:05 PM

It happens.  I think marriage does change things for a lot of people, and also a lot of people get married as a last ditch attempt to save the relationship.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  07:11 PM

Both of my parents married by 22 (not to each other) and I think their experiences are instructive. My father was afraid of striking out into the world alone (back when 22 was supposed to be “adult”) and basically was after a roommate/buddy: they managed to put each other through graduate school before the (unpleasant) separation. He feels some chagrin that he, in his words, let his wife down, but I think that’s a successful first marriage, especially given the high anecdotal incidence of men leaving after the wife puts them through grad school and before they return the favor.

My mother married a complete tool and spent a decade working two jobs to support him while she put herself through school. So that’s a more cautionary tale.

Both of them got divorced, and then had their successful marriage in their thirties, which is a good argument for, at the least, waiting to have kids.

Comment #82: purpleshoes  on  04/27  at  07:14 PM

“TX also has premarital classes, as the page above notes.”

Florida also has a three-day waiting period, along with a pamphlet that you “have to” read before getting married and an offer of a nominal discount on the license fee for couples who turned up with a certificate saying they’d completed a state-approved pre-marital counseling course.  Of the whacking great pile of people offering the course in my area, only two were not based out of a church or ministry program.  Both of those groups only offered the class during business hours.  The pamphlet wasn’t that bad, though; it was like twenty pages on what constituted “marital assets,” the disposition of marital assets in the event of divorce, and what no-fault divorce means.

Comment #83: preying mantis  on  04/27  at  07:20 PM

The thing is, most 20-year-old college students aren’t in relationships that could be converted to marriage, so really, the idea of just telling them to marry never even came up.  Nor should it, because that’s fucked up.

I knew a few people who considered this, because it was about the only way for the university I was at to accept that you were emancipated.  This was in the mid to late 1990s.

My solution was to figure out exactly how a combination of my AP credits and my college credits would result in a degree ASAP (thus, skipping my senior year, which I didn’t have any support for). It really didn’t matter to me which degree it was . . . I then did the degree I wanted in graduate school, while working 40 hours a week.

Comment #84: hp  on  04/27  at  07:24 PM

Ashley: In short, if you don’t have any familial support it makes perfect economic sense to marry young.

I think the important thing if you marry early for economic reasons is to wait with having children until you are the age you would have married without economic pressure. If you find out at 25 that the idea had outlived its usefulness, a divorce will be only messy, but not nightmarish. And if it still seems like a good idea at 25, or 28, or whatever, than it probably was.

Personally, I have seen exactly one case among friends or family that made marriage seem like a good financial strategy, and that was a 12 year difference in age with the man earning three times what the woman could hope to make with 20 years of seniority in her job. But still the risk is all hers: If it breaks, she’ll be working poor for the rest of her life.

Comment #85: inge  on  04/27  at  07:32 PM

It’s possible to hold together a young marriage, of course.  Less possible, but possible. But I don’t see the point in marrying young.  If you really think you’ll bet together in the future, why the rush?  Why not marry when you’re a little older?  If you think that it’s because your S.O. won’t be around then, you shouldn’t marry.

This.

For those defending young marriage, this is the perfect counterpoint.  Say you are a young couple in your early twenties, madly in love, and both of you convinced that you will spend the rest of your life together.

That’s still not a reason to get married when you are 21.  If the relationship really is that great, it will still be there when you are in your late twenties or early thirties, and if the urge to tie the knot is still as strong when you are 28 as it was when you were 21, go for it.

However… maybe that won’t be what happens.  Maybe what will happen is sometime in your mid-twenties you will grow apart and ultimately call it quits.  So where’s the loss?  You just managed to put yourself in a situation where you didn’t tie yourself into a complicated legal relationship really young that is really hard to get out of, and probably saved yourself a ton of heartache and headache in the process.

I think where the protestation stems from is the fallacious belief that creating a legal arrangement between a couple serves as a means to strengthen that relationship.  I don’t buy it.  Relationships are subject largely to the whims of the human heart, and while even the best relationships will experience tough spots and require work and sacrifice to get through those tough spots, I don’t think getting married earlier rather than later is any form of insurance to protect the integrity of a relationship.

The couple who marries at 21 and grows apart at 25 isn’t any better off than the couple who decides to wait on marriage at 21 and grows apart at 25, except the latter couple has to experience a lot more bullshit to get out of an unhappy relationship than the couple who didn’t tie the knot.  While the legal contract that exists between the latter couple may prove to be so cumbersome that they decide to just white-knuckle their way through it, it does nothing to improve the health of their relationship.  So maybe they stay together, and the unmarried couple doesn’t, but who is better off?  The miserable pair who got married young and feel like they are stuck in a marriage they don’t want to be in, or the unmarried couple who was able to part ways and go live their own lives?

Comment #86: DTG in STL  on  04/27  at  07:33 PM

Besides the infertility problems (and if by “trying harder” you mean a shitload of doctor’s appointments and $$ spent on IF treatments…you are trying a HELL of a lot harder) but also increased risk of birth defects, miscarriage, and maternal health risks.

Seriously, Lexie, don’t.  It’s bullshit. 

A 40 y/o woman has less than 2% chance of ANY genetic defect.  That’s right, over 98% chance of a genetically normal baby.  OOOOOooooh.  Scary.

The whole idea that women over 35 are more likely to have damaged babies is b/c an amniocentesis, a very safe test, will cause a spontaneous abortion 2% of the time.  You do not want to abort a genetically healthy child by accident, so they don’t recommend the test until the chance of a spontaneous abortion is equal or less than the chance of a genetic anomaly.

Older women don’t have babies as often now b/c they don’t have to.  They already have children and don’t want more.  I could get pregnant again, easily, despite being 42.  That’s why I have an IUD. 

With something like endometriosis, you need to have children early.  But for most women?  Having a child in your 30s is not an insanely arduous process.  Regnerus would be truly disturbed by what I see at my OB/GYN’s office:  Pregnant 30+ y/os long past our sell-by dates and bunches of 20-somethings refilling their birth control pills b/c they aren’t ready for that yet.

Comment #87: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  04/27  at  07:40 PM

You know, it would really help if Professor Regnerus bothered to crack a history book.  He would find that in Northern Europe the average age of marriage for both men and women was the mid-20s, when they could support an independent household, at least as far back as the 16th century.  The mid-19th to the mid-20th century is the outlier.

I got married at the age of 23, to my boyfriend of 4.5 years, primarily because it was the only way I would accept his financial assistance with my education. We had been engaged for two years at that point, but I had not intended to get married before I graduated college.  I guess he never really took seriously my goals to get a PhD and over our 10 year marriage we grew up and apart.  I can only imagine how much easier (and faster!) grad school would have been if I had had a supportive spouse who wasn’t constantly exerting pressure on me to be the “little woman” whose sole priority was tending to her family.

I was mature for my age, but it is with hindsight that I see most clearly how truly YOUNG I was and how much growing I still had to accomplish. I often share this perspective with young adults, warning them that they have more time than they think to reach their goals and how experience can make the fulfillment of their goals more rewarding.  I find it incredibly irresponsible for a professor to advise young women to rush their life when it comes to marriage and children.  How could you observe your own students and possibly conclude that more than a fraction would be ready for marriage, even knowing the odds were still against success?

Comment #88: history_mom  on  04/27  at  07:48 PM

I think where the protestation stems from is the fallacious belief that creating a legal arrangement between a couple serves as a means to strengthen that relationship.

Yep, and agreed that it’s not necessarily true.  To make it worse, there’s the ain’t broke/don’t fix it issue—-sometimes a change that seems positive on paper introduces new expectations and stresses that end the relationship.  It’s a small chance, but in some cases perfectly happy couples see marriage ruin everything.

Comment #89: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/27  at  07:50 PM

“I mean really, you live together for two years and get divorced six MONTHS after the wedding?”

Shit happens.  In some cases, shit happened before the wedding, but one or the other didn’t find out about it until after the wedding.  You also have plenty of cases where one spouse was fronting on an aspect or two of their personality or history and drops that once the exit barriers are higher; honeymoons (and pregnancy) are apparently a pretty popular time for abusers to add physical violence to their repertoire.  It also seems to be, for various reasons, a popular time for recovering addicts to relapse.  You can also wind up getting a lot more blowback from in-laws as a spouse than you did as a significant other.

Comment #90: preying mantis  on  04/27  at  07:51 PM

Regnery is the plural of Regnerus, right?

Comment #91: Redshift  on  04/27  at  08:00 PM

The whole idea that women over 35 are more likely to have damaged babies is b/c an amniocentesis, a very safe test, will cause a spontaneous abortion 2% of the time

Carean, I was there when they performed an amnio on my wife when she was pregnant with our first born, a boy.  We were watching on the monitor and saw the needle penetrate, and then a moment later, our future son’s hand reached out towards it.  Luckily, he didn’t make contact with it, but it was a real heart racer there for a moment.

With regard to marriage, I was 30 and my wife was 36 when we got married.  This year will be our ten year anniversary, as a matter of fact.  I was 28 when I met her, and to be honest, I just didn’t feel I was really ready to get married until I was 28.  Fortunately, when we met, we proved to be very compatible for each other and it took us less than a year to get engaged.  As for her, she had not met the right person before me, even though she was 6 years older than me.  We met at just the right time for each other.  So, in conclusion, no one, man or woman, should feel pressured to be married by an arbitrary age such as 20, 25, or 30 and so forth.

Comment #92: Tommykey  on  04/27  at  08:04 PM

How could you observe your own students and possibly conclude that more than a fraction would be ready for marriage, even knowing the odds were still against success?

Conservatism generally places a higher value on promoting certain behaviors and ideals rather than valuing the final outcomes. Regnerus believes that promoting early marriage is an important value, and if more of those students end up divorced than otherwise would be, he figures “at least they tried to do the right thing.”

It might also be a bit of projection of his own disappointments. Look, I’m sure plenty of people would have liked the idea of falling in love young and marrying that person and being together for the rest of your lives. It sounds like it would have been great! But there are very real reasons I didn’t do that and very real reasons that other people didn’t do it, even if they may have liked the idea in the abstract. Just because it sounds nice doesn’t mean you should encourage people to seek after something that generally doesn’t work out. It’s like saying that everyone should become an actor because being a movie star is a great way to make a living.

Comment #93: Tyro  on  04/27  at  08:07 PM

It’s a small chance, but in some cases perfectly happy couples see marriage ruin everything.

Yes, and ironically, IIRC, the first same-sex couple that got married in Massachusetts got divorced last year.

Comment #94: Tommykey  on  04/27  at  08:07 PM

I just had one of those “aha” moments.  Universal health care would (eventually) lower the divorce rate because fewer people would be entering into loveless marriages for health insurance.

My husband and I cohabited until 2007, at which point I realized that my financial dependence upon him, my failing health, and the likelihood that he’d eventually get into a car wreck he couldn’t walk away from meant that I was screwed without legal protection.  Aside from lower car insurance rates and lower taxes, marriage hasn’t been that great of a deal for him as he cannot simply throw me out on my ass when he’s tired of me.

Comment #95: Godless Heathen  on  04/27  at  08:07 PM

I got married when I was 19. I turned 30 last week and I’m still married to the same person, but I’m highly dissatisfied—not so much with him specifically as with the experience of spending all my formative young-adult years being a wife instead of building my own life.

I deeply regret getting married and I tell all the young people I know to wait, not to be in a rush. My 19-year-old niece recently got pregnant and married and I was heartbroken.

Comment #96: kristin  on  04/27  at  08:28 PM

“Universal health care would (eventually) lower the divorce rate because fewer people would be entering into loveless marriages for health insurance.”

There would also be less stress on otherwise happy marriages because of medical debt—seriously, is there any other way to accidentally rack up over ten grand in debt in one day?—or the pressure to retain or pursue an unwanted job due to the need for health insurance.

“Yes, and ironically, IIRC, the first same-sex couple that got married in Massachusetts got divorced last year.”

How is that ironic?  One of the first gay couples to get married in Canada turned around and filed for divorce for the sole purpose of lighting a fire under the legal beagles to update the divorce laws while they were expanding marriage rights.

Comment #97: preying mantis  on  04/27  at  08:29 PM

<blcoqkuote>Marriage may not make you rich—that’s not its purpose—but a biblical proverb reveals this nifty side effect: “Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work.”

...my applause goes out to those among them who’ve figured out that the proverb was right. One of those is Jennifer, a 23-year-old former student of mine. She’s getting married this fall. It wasn’t religion that made her do it. It wasn’t fear of being alone. It was simply affection. She met Jake while still in college and decided that there was no point in barhopping through her 20s. Her friends balked. She stood firm. Now they’re bridesmaids. </blockquote>

Nyah.  Now they’re bridesmaids!!!  Losers!!!  Nyah.  didn’t get that MRS and now you’re all alone!

Except that Jennifer is 23.  She’s out of college.  She and Jake got their degrees first.  So how does that prove anything?  And who says they aren’t still going to spend their 20s barhopping?

this guy is just a choad.  It’s embarrassing that he’s a professor.

Comment #98: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  04/27  at  08:31 PM

On marriage and economics:

I’ve been thinking a lot about a recent law change in Germany which seems to send the right signals, but is setting women who did not get the signals up for nasty consequences. In short, iirc, after divorce the richer partner has to pay support to the poorer only if the latter is caring for children under the age of three.

On one hand, that says pretty clearly, “don’t be an idiot, don’t get into a supportive role, think of your own education and career, not your partner’s.” OTOH it leaves women who have married under the old law and relied on its stronger protections up shit creek with no paddle. And tax law still strongly favours single-earner households.

So, in the still standard situation of the man earning more, it leaves him with a strong and immediate incentive to have a SAH wife (taxes) and her with a strong but time-delayed one to work as if she were single (support payments, lack thereof).

Not sure how that will play out, but it’s pretty clear that an average 28 yo will have far better chances to negotiate an acceptable deal than an average 20 yo.

Lexie: Raising children would have been SO MUCH EASIER from an energy standpoint to do when I was in my 20’s than now.

But there are a lot of things that you have the energy for when you’re 20 and not when you’re 40, and that, if you’r middle class, you only have to put up with when you’re 20: Living with a bunch of roommates who party all night, eating ramen noodles for weeks because you’re out of money, no hot water because your landlord won’t fix the boiler, getting by on 2 hours sleep and too much coffee because you had to work or study all night… If you expect this to never end, then it’s better to have children in your early 20s than in your late 30s. But if you expect to have a place of your own and no food insecurity by the time you’re thirty, or fourty, that can more than make up for declining energy.


Hector B: Real, acid tests of flexibility: Go camping with the other person for two weeks, and see if you don’t want to wring their necks by that point. Or, go hostelling in Europe for three weeks.

Good advice. I was at some co-worker’s 25th wedding anniversary, who said she and her boyfriend decided to marry after they had tramped through South America together for three months and still got along fine.

Hector B, again: That doctor should not be allowed to practice, at least not on women.

These types of doctors are so common that it often takes years to find one who isn’t blaming overweight for everything from a common cold to a congenital heart condition. I had to tell a neurologist, “I’m not here to get lectured about my weight. I’m here because my chiropractor(*) needs you to check if my slipped disk has caused nerve damage. Do your job.”

(*) Why a chiropractor? Because no orthopaedist would listen to a word I said until I had a BMI of 23.


DC Fem: I think that pieces like this garbage are arriving exactly on schedule.

Word. I found a similar piece of garbage in Saturday’s newspaper.

Comment #99: inge  on  04/27  at  08:39 PM

Great piece Amanda!  I think modernity benefits men as well as women in many ways.  I often wonder, why on earth would men want to go back to the days when all of the financial pressure - to earn, to provide, to feed the children, keep a roof over their family’s head, was on them?  My mother often would tell of my father having panic attacks, night after night, when she became pregnant with me.  Not because he didn’t want children.  Of course he was terrified!  He was very young, and the sole earner - and not making much.  Now this completely dependent being was coming along whose entire survival depended upon him feeding and clothing it.  Jesus Christ, who the hell would be nostalgic about that?  Years later, when my mom had entered the workforce and done quite well for herself, I think they were both much happier.

Comment #100: Lady Vader  on  04/27  at  08:54 PM

“and referring to getting married young as stupid and unsexy is ridiculous. “

I don’t mean to sound hostile, but I don’t think it is ridiculous.  I fear this for my niece, even though she is only 10, she is exposed to almost exclusively traditional and repressive gender roles.  My brother is a sexist, and my sister-in-law is a stay at home mom who always dreamed of being a stay at home mom with five children. Five is the magic number in her family, but for medical reasons, they stopped at two.  My niece has already mentioned to me having babies, and weddings.  I tell her, you better start dreaming about the day you graduate from a University with an advanced degree.  I am constantly trying to figure out how to get some of MY views into her worldview, at least for consideration, without sounding like the crazy aunt.  If she married at 20, sorry, but I’d be devastated and there is no other word for that than stupid, with a capital S.  That’s my opinion, and though I really don’t care what others choose to do, I would not want this for my niece.

Comment #101: Lady Vader  on  04/27  at  08:59 PM

I would submit that women tend to need marriage more than men do, since it’s usually women’s contributions to a household that are off the books (i.e. domestic labor).  It strikes me as oddly sentimental to portray marriage as an emotional and financial entanglement that unnecessarily complicates a breakup.  If I wanted to leave my spouse tomorrow, I’d sure as hell need some legal oomph behind me in getting out of this intact.  He’s the one who’s racked up the debt in both of our names (if we had not married, it would just be his debt - it’s true) while I’ve been the one earning income.  I myself am in a very very weak financial position at this moment in my life, but if he had a right to walk away tomorrow with the student loans about to be deposited into his bank account and the professional degree I’ve supported him towards, I’d be a lot more scared.  (Don’t get me wrong - I’m pretty scared as it is.) 

I think it’s oddly sentimental to worry about feeling obligated to stay in a marriage for marriage’s sake for a crowd that appears to be pretty unsentimental about marriage in general, but I guess we’re all responding to Regenerus’ apparent disinterest in the nuts and bolts of marriage and divorce in favor of the wuv factor. 

For the record, I doubt it would ever have occurred to me to really commit to someone I didn’t marry or give birth to.

Comment #102: saraeanderson  on  04/27  at  09:08 PM

Regarding older women and pregnancy:

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but at 34, when I went off the Pill in May, I got pregnant in August. There were complications, but they were significantly less than the complications my mother suffered with *me* when she was 19. I successfully breast-fed and used the minipill to avoid pregnancy after giving birth, until I slipped up with the minipill, my periods came back, and I got pregnant *that same cycle* when I was 36. Both babies are healthy and very intelligent (my five year old informs me that he wants to draw DNA and he loves all the parts of the human body, and he has a toy brain named Glowy).

I do not have endometriosis or PCOS and have never had any STDs to my knowledge. So, well, I’m personally inclined to believe that you guys are right, and almost all of the infertility thing is the result of women suffering from illnesses (diagnosed or undiagnosed), or men having low sperm count (if the average man is older than the average woman he’s married to, then most older women are having kids with even older men. But not me! I got me a guy who’s five years younger! grin)

Comment #103: Alara J Rogers  on  04/27  at  09:09 PM

From an energy standpoint, raising kids may be easier when you’re in your teens or 20s, because you can do long stints with minimal sleep, run around after them blah blah blah, but from a psychological standpoint, not so much. To do a good job with kids, you need to know who you are and recognize that it’s your job to give them good feelings, not theirs to give them to you. If you marry and have kids early, there’s a serious risk of those kids, like your marriage, being a formative experience in all the wrong ways.

(Of course, a two-person household, much less one, is pretty much inadequate to raise kids properly, but the US is dead set against villages.)

Comment #104: paul  on  04/27  at  09:17 PM

“The average age of American men marrying for the first time is now 28. That’s up five full years since 1970” + “The age gap between spouses is narrowing: Marrying men and women were separated by an average of more than four years in 1890 and about 2.5 years in 1960. Now that figure stands at less than two years.”
This means that the average age when women got married was 20.5 in 1960. Which means an awful lot of them got married as teenagers, and I expect many did before 18. Is this something to praise? Encourage? Is teen pregnancy ok as long as the teen gets married?

Comment #105: damigiana  on  04/27  at  09:17 PM

I used to be pretty firmly in the “Ohh I want to be marrrried!!!” camp when I was 15-18ish, I was totally sure that the moment we were both legal we’d be at the justice of the peace or something. But there was a slight family issue with it, though, my great-grandma got married at 36 and thought that it was stupid for women to do otherwise (and made her opinions known - what happened? Both of her daughters got married and divorced before they were 30. My mom hedged her bets and got married at 30, had me at 33).
Anyway, after living in closer/adult proximity to boyfriend of the 15-18ish age, we weren’t meant for the long-term. Have another boyfriend now and we’re still back and forth about our paths. Like I told him, we’ll see, but I’m not jumping into anything while it is uncertain that we’ll be happy together in another couple of years. (I’m very career-minded, he’s very… not)

Comment #106: Tenya  on  04/27  at  09:26 PM

“I think it’s oddly sentimental to worry about feeling obligated to stay in a marriage for marriage’s sake for a crowd that appears to be pretty unsentimental about marriage in general”

How is it sentimental to acknowledge that society brings pressure to bear against divorce unless there are socially acceptable causes (infidelity, abuse, etc.)?  When you put that together with the need to run the dissolution of your union past the legal system for a thumbs-up and the inherent difficulty in breaking up after a prolonged period of cohabitation and resource-mingling without undo rancor, there is often the temptation to keep giving the relationship CPR long after the possibility of resuscitation has passed.

“I would submit that women tend to need marriage more than men do, since it’s usually women’s contributions to a household that are off the books (i.e. domestic labor).”

That’s kind of a non-sequitur, there.  “Women get stuck pulling a second shift once they get home from work, ergo women need marriage more”?

Comment #107: preying mantis  on  04/27  at  09:32 PM

I met my husband at 20 (he was 27) and got married at 21, almost immediately after I graduated college.  We’ve been together 12 years this summer and we’re still happy, close, and have a great relationship and two kids (which we waited a few years on—the oldest just turned 7).  In that time I’ve finished grad school, decided what I want to be when I grow up, and have a plan to get there (which is waiting on youngest to start kindergarten, as daycare and tuition are mutually exclusive—having kids has slowed me down way more than marriage has).  I fully acknowledge, though, that I got lucky.

That said, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone else to get married as young as I did.  I’m happy with my life and I wouldn’t want to spend it with anyone else, but I do regret, a little, not waiting a couple more years.  Just because I would have liked to have been on my own for a bit before marrying him.  And even though I was very mature for my age, when I think back to how stupid I was 10 years ago, it reminds me again how lucky we are that we’ve grown together rather than apart.

And if either of my boys or any of my nieces and nephews get it into their heads to do what I did, it’ll absolutely break my heart.

Comment #108: ks  on  04/27  at  09:35 PM

Another thing I’ve noticed about these evo-psych-as-social-prescription articles is that they are invariably aimed toward admonishing young women to hurry up and get married and never toward impressing upon young men the urgency of amassing the necessary “resources” to secure a young bride when they are older:

But according to social psychologists Roy Baumeister and Kathleen Vohs, women’s “market value” declines steadily as they age, while men’s tends to rise in step with their growing resources (that is, money and maturation).

The clear assumption of that statement is that these “growing resources” will occur in due time and there’s no reason to worry the boys’ pretty little heads about it.  This illustrates an obvious class bias on Regnerus’ part, where he elides the fact that if a man is not the benificiary of a trust fund, it will take years for him to be financially secure enough to acquire a nubile, resource-seeking 20 year old bride when he’s 34.  Oh sure, women have a more pressing time constraint where peak fertility is concerned but you’d think the evo-psychers would take the time it takes for men to create wealth into their calculus.  Just once, I’d like to see one of these articles where the lede is, “Research shows that young men who don’t mind their careers and investments will die alone and childless!!1!”  But I guess that would be, you know, rude.

Comment #109: DonnaDiva  on  04/27  at  09:37 PM

DonnaDiva:

The older guys tend to go through young women, so they need an oversupply. Think fundamentalist mormons and the teenage boys they dump by the side of the road, only a little kinder and gentler.

Comment #110: paul  on  04/27  at  09:49 PM

How is that ironic?  One of the first gay couples to get married in Canada turned around and filed for divorce for the sole purpose of lighting a fire under the legal beagles to update the divorce laws while they were expanding marriage rights.

Preying Mantis, the Massachusetts couple did not get married just so that they could get divorced and update the divorce laws.  It is ironic when you are a same-sex couple fighting for the right to get married and then after getting married, you realize that you don’t want to be married to each other anymore.  It was not intended as an anti-gay marriage remark, as I fully support marriage equality.

Comment #111: Tommykey  on  04/27  at  10:00 PM

“Preying Mantis, the Massachusetts couple did not get married just so that they could get divorced and update the divorce laws.”

No, but they may have gotten married—as straight people do—for reasons that don’t revolve around ‘til death do they part.  There were at least a few couples in San Francisco who were willing to admit to the media that they weren’t sure it was a forever-type thing, but if it wasn’t, they could always get divorced or not fight to have the marriage recognized.  What they were worried about was if it was, and this was the last chance they’d have for years, or forever.  I mean, hell, with the ever-present risk of states having take-back parties and unilaterally annulling gay marriages applying the positive pressure to honest-to-god get married now or never have the chance again, it’s a little surprising there aren’t more couples who’ve subsequently realized that they jumped the gun.

Comment #112: preying mantis  on  04/27  at  10:21 PM

The (relatively few) divorces haven’t surprised me, just because any big change like that—changing jobs, moving to a different city, getting married when the law formerly forbade it, or not—puts a lot of stress on a relationship. You focus on accomplishing some thing together for some pretty damn long period of time, to the possible exclusion of a lot of other things that could keep the relationship more lively, and suddenly when you achieve the thing, the reaction isn’t what you expected.

Comment #113: paul  on  04/27  at  10:48 PM

It’s not surprising that a wingnut thinks this way. I have little doubt that Regnerus regularly fantasizes about young, nubile brides.

Comment #114: Sadie Morrison  on  04/27  at  11:58 PM

I don’t know how young “young” is, but I got married pretty young.  We were both 24; we’d been together since I was 20 and he was 19.

It always sounds so convoluted; I don’t regret that I married DH.  I do regret the choices I made a few years earlier, after graduating college, that led to my marriage. 

I’m sort of a natural academic, and being shoved out into the adult world terrified me.  I clung to whatever I could to try to stay sane—rather literally, as I have a history of depression.  If I knew then what I know now, I would have lit out for D.C., started working for a politician or a non-profit or a think tank.

But.  I was young, and terrified, and unemployed, and very unsure of my ability to hack it in the “real world.” 

I do love my husband.  I just regret that I didn’t take my chance before the tedium of things caught up—the student loans, the credit card debt, the car repairs, the leases…It’s a lot harder to negotiate a new path with adult responsibilities, let alone when there are two people’s dreams and duties to work around.

Comment #115: Karinna A.  on  04/28  at  01:23 AM

I suspect that the conservative push for young women to marry (sometimes much) older men stems from their strong desire for un-egalitarian marriages. That, and their view that women are solely baby-making machines. Regnerus comes right out and expresses the latter view when he refers to the “marriage market,” indicating that he views women as commodities, and not, you know, human beings.

Comment #117: Sadie Morrison  on  04/28  at  01:53 AM

There would also be less stress on otherwise happy marriages because of medical debt—seriously, is there any other way to accidentally rack up over ten grand in debt in one day?—or the pressure to retain or pursue an unwanted job due to the need for health insurance.

FUCKING THIS.

If my marriage does break up at any point, this right here will be the A-number one reason. When I say that opponents of universal health care hate my family, I’m speaking quite literally.

Comment #118: Auguste  on  04/28  at  02:13 AM

Come ON, young-married happy people!

Amanda is generalizing. It’s OBVIOUS that there are a few couples with the maturity, self-awareness, flexibility and mutual consideration to make love last. It’s also obvious that we were all surrounded at that age by stupid twits no one in their right minds should marry.

I married at age 19, and was surrounded by people warning me to think twice, finish college before marrying, etc, etc. I’ve never regretted my marriage, BUT I am glad people would have stood up for me if I’d gotten cold feet or needed out. And I wouldn’t recommend marrying so young to most people.

Comment #119: Samantha Vimes  on  04/28  at  03:02 AM

I’m rather late to this thread, but…

I wish this Regnerus fellow had reason to panic. The median age for marriage may be going up, but there’s still a tremendous pressure on people, especially women, to get married young. I’m 21, and I have way more married friends than I feel I should have, most of which I am quite certain will end within a few years. Even in the Bay Area, which is pretty much as liberal as it gets.

My boyfriend and I are moving in together when I graduate in June, but we’re in no rush to get married. It’s easier for him than it is for me, though; every time I see any relative, doctor, or anyone over 35 who I haven’t seen in a while, they either ask if I’m married yet or ask when I plan to get married. Even when I actively resist that pressure, it still gets to me sometimes, and I start dreading having to plan a wedding until I realize that I don’t actually have to get married just because everyone apparently thinks I should be.

Comment #120: Lauren O  on  04/28  at  04:03 AM

More anecdote - my parents got married when my mum was 20 and my dad was 29.  They divorced some 25 years later with my mum having been unhappy and out of love for maybe 15 of those years.  My dad, on the other hand, will love her until the day he dies.

I think, knowing a little of the history, that she married him to escape the authority of and economic dependence on her father.  He married her because he needed stability and someone to look after him.  He was a fully formed adult at that point, she wasn’t.  I think the way their marriage turned out is very much because of the ages they were respectively.

Comment #121: Katherine  on  04/28  at  05:38 AM

I must be the exception.

I married young, 21, and graduated from college 5 month pregnant. We’ll be celebrating our 20th anniversary this summer.
We have four kids, aged 9-17.  (we’re former Quiverfull folks)
I work a “man’s job.” I drive a semi on a local relay. 330 miles, plus unloading.
I write books. Three published novels, two contracted and in edits. 
I’m studying for the ministry with my local pagan church.
We’re also active in the local GLBT community (2 Bs and a T).

OTOH, I watched my mother and father each make a hash of three marriages. Which told me that 20, 22, 26, 35, 43 or 45…none of it is a guarantee.

Comment #122: Angelia Sparrow  on  04/28  at  07:11 AM

Katherine, my parents were in a similar situation, except that they were both 19 when they got married (because mom got pregnant and that’s just the what you did when you turned up pregnant in small town Appalachia in the 70s).  They stayed married for 28 years and seemed fairly happy during most of that time, if not “in love” the way we normally think of it.  However, once my youngest sister moved out and mom went back to school, it all seemed to go downhill.  Dad (who I love and who is generally great, but he is a product of his environment and must be “the man” in the relationship at all times) couldn’t take it that Mom was doing something that didn’t revolve around him and us and started cheating, Mom wouldn’t take him back after that, and so they divorced.

They’re still great friends and get along wonderfully well, especially since Mom moved 300 miles away and is doing her own thing.  But life would have probably been nicer to both of them in the long run if they’d not had to get married so young.

Comment #123: ks  on  04/28  at  10:23 AM

I said it at Feministing, but I think I’ll say it again: Mark Regnerus sounds an awful lot like Humbert Humbert in the first pages of Lolita.

Comment #124: realityfighter  on  04/28  at  11:28 AM

every time I see any relative, doctor, or anyone over 35 who I haven’t seen in a while, they either ask if I’m married yet or ask when I plan to get married.

While I’d give doctors a pass (having a spouse can affect your health and likelihood of recovery, whether positively or negatively) any relative or friend who asks if you’re married should be hit with a wiffle bat.

Comment #125: Hector B.  on  04/28  at  11:33 AM

Everyone likes to emphasize the health risks of an older mother, but people don’t realize there are also health risks with an older father.  Having an older father is a factor in schizophrenia, for example.  Men’s sperm quality is variable throughout their lives because they are constantly making it.  We all know that pregnant women shouldn’t drink too much alcohol (or maybe none at all).  But if men drink a lot during the week of conception, the babies are at increased risk for birth defects.  Obviously the health of the mother has more effect on the baby, but the father has some influence too.  I don’t like this idea that the health of the baby is completely the mother’s responsibility.  Of course, that’s exactly the attitude that conservatives love to push.  Everything is the woman’s fault and none of that stuff would happen if she would just submit to the conservatives’ plan for her life.

Comment #126: bananacat  on  04/28  at  11:36 AM

>You can’t have your own bank account<

WTF? Then I guess I’ve been breaking some sort of marital banking law for 25 years. I have three words of advice for newlyweds of any age: separate checking accounts. But that’s just the kind of thing a young bride, unused to earning or handling her own money, wouldn’t think of.

>any relative or friend who asks if you’re married should be hit with a <strike> wiffle </strike> bat.<

Fixed.

Comment #127: WoodyD  on  04/28  at  11:58 AM

One reason for women not to marry early without a career is obvious: the danger of an abusive, exploitative husband. The risk rises the more vulnerable the woman is (women below the poverty line, undocumented or unassimilated immigrants, women with disabilities or mental health problems, women who already have small children). Even middle-class women with none of these problems are vulnerable if they are still very young.

Any stats on domestic abuse figures correlating with age at first marriage?

In this context Regnerus’s views that early marriage for women should be “formative” are, yes, creepy—at best Henry Higgins. He plans to do the forming. Let’s just say that there is such a thing as emotional abuse.

Comment #128: sara  on  04/28  at  12:00 PM

“WTF? Then I guess I’ve been breaking some sort of marital banking law for 25 years.”

Apparently it’s still something of a society-disapproved method of dealing with money while married.  Some jackass on MSNBC was just ranting about it last week, saying you might as well just get divorced already if that’s how you’re going to deal with assets.

Comment #129: preying mantis  on  04/28  at  12:30 PM

Sigh.  An, the memories ...

The comments to this post (and the post itself) are practically verbatim all the things I was told when I said I wanted to get married at 20.  How my life was over, how I would never succeed at a career, how “they” regretted getting married so early, how the marriage would never last (the person who told us this *on our wedding day* got divorced 2 years later).  Hell, the DH was practically accused of being a pedophile because I was “only” 20!

I married 1 month after my 20th birthday.  My husband was 26.  On August 30, we’ll have been married 29 years.  We do not have children (5 consecutive miscarriages convinced me [and him!] that wasn’t a happenin’-kind-of-thing for us).  I make more money than he does, and always have.  I left college after 2 years to marry him.  He had graduated from business school (stupid asshole father-in-law wouldn’t send him to college).  While we share a lot of the same values and enjoy many of the same activities, we allow each other the space to be different (I don’t expect him to come to my knitting group; he doesn’t expect me to go to his gaming conventions). 

We’ve had good times, bad times, in-between times.  But the one thing that has remained the same over the last 29 years has been our desire to be *together*.  We’re that weird couple who actually *enjoy* each other’s company.  We’d have been good friends even if we hadn’t gotten married, because we *like* each other, as well as love each other. 

It’s kinda neat being the exception-to-the-rule (for once!).  smile

Comment #130: Mhorag  on  04/28  at  12:38 PM

Never mind all that, I want to see the photographs, diagrams, and charts promised in this wedding/honeymoon guide.  “Guidance to a happy honeymoon and a successful marriage” is in all caps on front.  I’ll bet those ain’t seating charts.

Comment #131: Roving Thundercloud  on  04/28  at  12:40 PM

>ome jackass on MSNBC was just ranting about it last week, saying you might as well just get divorced already if that’s how you’re going to deal with assets. <

Jackass indeed. I’ve always heard that money is a major cause of marital discord. In 25 years, we’ve never had a single fight about money. Joint savings and separate checking. There were lots of lean years when those checking account balances were in the middle-to-high double digits, but the important thing was that we had “ours,” “mine” and “yours.”

I guess that’s another factor of marrying slightly more mature (24 and 26 in our case.) We knew we wanted to create “ours,” but we recognized the importance of keeping a little “mine” and “yours.” That’s why the whole “formative” idea is so creepy. And of course it’s always the older man forming the younger woman. Wonder what he’d think of a woman in her late 20s - early 30s being the formative influence on a teenage husband.

Comment #132: WoodyD  on  04/28  at  01:13 PM

preying mantis: Some jackass on MSNBC was just ranting about it last week, saying you might as well just get divorced already if that’s how you’re going to deal with assets.

Some jackass must really get turned on by fights about money.

Comment #133: inge  on  04/28  at  02:51 PM

My husband and I married early, but do not want kids. He’s putting me through school currently, and had we not married I would not have qualified for near the amount of financial aid as a single person under 23 as one married or single and 23+. Too bad there’s no check box reading “I don’t give with my parents and they won’t give me a dime for college” instead. I’d still be with him otherwise, but maybe not married.

Comment #134: Tesla Dethray  on  04/28  at  10:00 PM

I also could have used a checkbox like that, although my parents were far more supportive than some commenter’s.

Comment #135: Kyso K  on  04/28  at  10:51 PM

Methinks someone is feeling a little remorse over tying the knot so early (Regenerus says he was 22. Isn’t it mad coincidence that his own marriage commenced precisely at the “right” age he is toting?). He’s looking at all of those luscious “coeds” he can’t woo as the “studly older man”, and gnashing his teeth. So, like the fox who declares the grapes sour, Regenerus is declaring all of that fun partying and bed hopping to be “bad” for society, while his staid marriage is the real secret to unending happiness.

Shorter Regenerus: Bitchez aren’t allowed to have any fun, unless they’re having it with ME!

Comment #136: Neko Onna  on  04/29  at  01:02 AM

I got married at 23, and almost wish I got married sooner.  My wife and I did it smart, saved everything, bought a nice house, youngest couple in the neighborhood when the market was low, had 2 kids, and now we are better off financially than any our unmarried friends, or friends that waited a while.  Plus, by the time my kids get out of the house I will be laughing at all my friends who are the same age as me and are dealing with teenagers or soccer games.  ha ha ha ha
new jersey drug possession charge

Comment #137: lawonthestreet  on  04/29  at  05:22 PM

This reminds me of the NYT article about mega-families. One of the arguments the parents of these very large families used was that they were more ecologically sustainable, because one light bulb lighted a room for 10 people instead of 4—pooling, again. A family of ten has a 5 bedroom house, and a family of four has a 3 bedroom house. So on and so forth. In reality, though, a family of four will likely result in three households when the children grow up, while a family of ten results in 9 households, all with their own light bulbs and bedrooms and water and sewage and driveways leading up to garages with some oil burning beast inside. These arguments, when compared against themselves, never seem to hold up at all.

Comment #138: barely there  on  05/01  at  10:51 AM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.