Dude’ll never apologize. He’s just made himself the frontrunner for the GOP nomination. Or until a couple weeks pass, then he’ll get found out shagging someone inappropriate…

I’m sure McCain will be apologizing for suggesting that Wilson apologize by week’s end.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/58372028@N00/3904891239/sizes/o/  This is a screen cap of one of the unedited versions…

They ought to have a rule that there are no cell phones on the floor of Congress during Presidential speeches, period. It’s just as rude as reading a newspaper during the speech or coming to the speech dressed in a t-shirt and an old pair of jeans.

Oh, and I apologize to the nation that Eric Cantor is from not only my state, but my home town (or at least it’s wealthy exurbs). That guy is a first class cobag.

In all seriousness, Speaker Pelosi needs to consider a Resolution of Censure against Wilson for this.  It won’t actually do anything to it other than publicly shame it, but that needs to happen.

The opposition will surely say this is making a mountain out of a molehill, and claim the whole “both sides” nonsense.

In my entire life, in every presidential address before a joint session of Congress, regardless of who the president was, I have NEVER, EVER, EVER seen such blatant disrespect for the office of the president from any member of Congress, EVER.

Fuck this giant pile of shit.  I hope this thing gets run over by a fucking Mack truck.

Let your stupid flag fly, Wilson.

Geesh, you would think he’d be thankful to the bottom of his hog and chicken producing bankrollers contributions that Obama isn’t going to include illegals ... so much cheaper for these ... um ... constituents to employ them if they don’t have to pay their health care!

Nothing at all surprising about this.  It is typical of Republican behavior over hte past 20-30 years.  Expecting Republicans to show respect to anyone or anything other than their corporate masters is foolish.

No one was ever this disrespectful to George Bush and HE was a fucking liar.  Rep. Wilson’s web page crashed within minutes so I’m hoping he will realize the error of his ways and apologize.  We need to stay on this.  Such blatant disrespect should not be tolerated.

http://www.robmillerforcongress.com/wordpress/

Wilson’s Democratic competition for 2010. I suggest donations dedicated to the memory of Joe Wilson.

Wilson “apologizes.” Source—CNN’s Peter Hamby on Twitter.

“While I disagree with the President’s statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable.”

“While I disagree with the President’s statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable.”

Wow. An actual apology, too, rather than one of those, “I regret that my comments may have offended people.”

Beaufort native here, and I have nothing nice or constructive to add to this discussion, other than FUCK Joe Wilson. I almost strangled my computer screen when I read this. My dad voted for that guy, and even he got disgusted after going to a town hall and hearing him rehash the bullshit about Obama wanting to kill your grandmother. Just… Argh.

Even if he does apologize, it will just be fake anyway.  He’s acting exactly like a toddler so it’s safe to assume that he’ll continue acting like one.  He’ll fake an apology so he can get his cookie, but he won’t actually change his behavior.

Over $11,000 raised for Wilson’s opponent, Rob Miller, a veteran of the Marine Corps.

Keep it coming…Wilson is sweating.

http://www.actblue.com/entity/fundraisers/19079

Eight months gone.

FORTY to go - possibly EIGHTY EIGHT.

Just how bad is it going to get?

“Does he really believe any of these bills provide free health care for undocumented immigrants? I certainly wish they did, but they sure as hell don’t.”

Try the following exercise to ease your fears. Pretend you are an undocumented worker with a family of 4, and after HR3200 passes in December, try to figure out how to get affordability credits to help buy a policy from the exchange or public option. With a little research and an understanding of how the IRS processes tax returns with false or mis-matched SSN’s, you’ll see you will be able to do this at little or no risk of being discovered. Watch for instruction guides to pop up on pro-immigrant websites after HCR passes. In addition, Immigration Reform (Schumer promises!) is not far in the future, and a path to health care will probably precede even full citizenship.

You know, I still try to believe that out and out racists are a minority.  That they are small, ignorant people without much education or power.

Then this shit.

No matter how much the rhetoric has been upped, I cannot believe that this ass Wilson would have yelled “You lie” at a white President.  He was putting that uppity Negro in his place.

Post-racial my ass.

Here’s the full apology from CNN’s Politicker: GOP Rep. Joe Wilson of South Carolina issued a statement Wednesday night apologizing for his outburst during President Obama’s speech to Congress:

“This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the President’s remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill. While I disagree with the President’s statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the President for this lack of civility.”

Ayutokamina, I’d prefer that - VASTLY prefer that option to illegals having to use ERs and not pay into the system.

Re: Wilson and Cantor, send the outrage to any RePub congress or senators in your state and to the minority leader Boehner.

Miller is up to $20,000 in donations now. Wilson may very well be toast.

Let me get this straight.  This guy thought it was a good idea to please his fellow white sheets by insulting the President in a rude and stupid manner in front of a national audience of engaged citizens responsible for Obama’s massive internet-generated cash flow.

I think somebody should clue him in that discretion is the better part of valor.

“This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the President’s remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill. While I disagree with the President’s statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the President for this lack of civility.”

YOU LIE.

Love that Wikipedia entry.  I feel really sorry for President Obama - no matter what he does, it will never be good enough for some <strike>racist fuckwits</strike> people simply because he’s not a middle-aged white man from a wealthy and politically influential family.

Just how bad is it going to get?

You really don’t want to know.  I do advise investing in Kevlar if you live near any Republicans, however.

Wilson is much like the beta-male in the group of schoolyard bullies who, trying to impress his friends, ends up making fun of the kid whose mother just died, and then even the bullies to look at him and say, “Whoah, man. Not cool.”

Meanwhile, Rob Miller’s site is not accessible due to heavy overload.

YEAH!

“Eight months gone.
FORTY to go - possibly EIGHTY EIGHT.
Just how bad is it going to get?”

...don’t you worry about us.  By the time Obama’s term(s) are up, there won’t be anything more serious than daily small arms fire in the House of Representatives. 

I mean, they’re not crazy... I’m sure they’ll leave the assault rifles, the grenades, and the biologicals at home…

small arms fire in the House of Representatives.

Let me know when there are canning (1850s) or people brandishing fire tongs as weapons (1790s) in the House.

Ms. Kate, Miller’s act Blue donations are at almost $30,000 right now in just over an hour from the end of the President’s speech.

Er, canings, even.

Joe Wilson’s web site is down for maintenance.

His CONGRESSIONAL web site.

Evidently the firestorm of protesters crashed it.

I wonder how he feels now that his teabagging, gun toting friends aren’t around to “keep folk in line”?

So we have this tradition of reverence for the office of the President.  I guess it’s because of the President’s role as Head of State as well as chief executive.  Is it such a good thing?

Yes, Wilson was wrong on the merits.  Yes, he was breaking with that tradition for all the wrong reasons.  But wouldn’t it be a good thing for Congress to look and act a little more like the British Parliament from time to time?  It can be easier to have open and honest debate when you don’t have to coat every speech with a veneer of false civility.  And imagine if journalists felt free to ask uncomfortable questions!

[Tongue only partially in cheek - donation to Wilson’s opponent on its way]

Yes, Wilson was wrong on the merits.  Yes, he was breaking with that tradition for all the wrong reasons.  But wouldn’t it be a good thing for Congress to look and act a little more like the British Parliament from time to time?

In the British Parliament, some insults/accusations are banned. “Liar” is one of them. Along with things like “criminal” and “despot” and “thief”, etc.

They’re banned?  Or they’re not used for fear of incurring legal liability for slander?  Since truth is a defense in defamation suits, I would expect that you can call someone a criminal in Parliament if they are, in fact, a criminal.

Come to think of it, anything said in Parliament is privileged, and cannot be taken to court.  Any punishment would have to be voted on by the House itself. 

Do you have a cite to the rules governing debate?

But wouldn’t it be a good thing for Congress to look and act a little more like the British Parliament from time to time?

I’m pretty sure there’s a difference between Question Time—which is when you get those contentious shouting matches with the Prime Minister—and regular speeches in Parliament.

Ignore the Congresstroll.

(Though as Ben D. points out, calling someone a liar is unparliamentary language, even in Britain, and if you don’t withdraw or revise, you can be temporarily kicked out of the chamber.)

I have to admit, I’m more amused than shocked.  I mean, really, he may as well have stood up and said, “Nuh-UH, Mr. Poopypants!”  Dude has the self-control of a 12-year-old boy, and I may be maligning 12-year-olds here.

Er, canings, even.

Wimp.  Cannings sounded much more entertaining.

Miller’s act Blue donations are at almost $30,000 right now in just over an hour from the end of the President’s speech.

That may make people feel better, but as Crazy Michele Bachmann made clear, you can give a quarter-million to an opponent but if the district is wingnut central, you might as well just mail those donations straight to the local TV affiliates. That said, $30k is enough to keep his campaign in the black, which means he can at least keep Wilson busy next year.

I know this was brought up earlier, but in light of the “apology” I think it needs to be stressed again: Why call the president a liar on something that can factually be proven? I mean, either said immigrants are covered and Obama is lying, or they’re not and this guy is desperately trying to make Idiot of the Year. I would think if one were to “disagree with the President’s statement” then one might wish to come up with some facts to back up your emotional outburst. Of course, I’m actually thinking this through with an attempt at logic, so I suspect I’m already one step ahead of him as it is.

@38: I remember Republicans repeating over and over that Clinton committed perjury, which is worse than calling someone a liar.  They did it on the floors of Congress, they did it on TV, they did it in town hall meetings.  The House even indicted him for it, and there was a trial in the Senate.

Republicans haven’t been civil since the Civil Rights movement.  Earlier even - the McCarthy era, the reaction to the New Deal, the reaction to the Labor movement.  Hell, they were none too civil during Reconstruction.  About the only thing they’ve gotten right, as a party, was the Union cause.  That was about 150 years ago.

Too many Democrats think it’s rude to point this out.  Credulous journalists then lead busy citizens to take seriously the ravings of the likes of Michele Bachmann.

Yep, Joe Wilson let his emotions get the better of him, emotions of outrage that the President speaking to him was a black man, perhaps?  So he had to show his outrage at having to listen to said black president by publicly showing he was too white to listen respectfully (or at least silently)?

@38: I remember Republicans repeating over and over that Clinton committed perjury, which is worse than calling someone a liar.  They did it on the floors of Congress, they did it on TV, they did it in town hall meetings.  The House even indicted him for it, and there was a trial in the Senate.

Apples and oranges.  Let’s repeat…

NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF TELEVISED PRESIDENTIAL SPEECHES BEFORE JOINT SESSIONS OF CONGRESS HAS A U.S. PRESIDENT EVER, EVER, EVER BEEN INTERRUPTED MIDSPEECH WITH AN OPPOSITION PARTY CONGRESSMAN SHOUTING “YOU LIE!” AT HIM.

That needed to be emphasized, because it needs to be understood why people are making such a big deal out of this.  Rep. Wilson broke a protocol of decorum and respect that has never been broken in the modern history of the presidency.  And I have a hard time believing that this long-standing protocol of respect would have been breached had the president delivering this speech been a white man.

Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush have ALL delivered nationally televised speeches before joint sessions of Congress during their presidencies.

Not ONCE in any of those speeches has a Congressperson from the opposing party EVER interrupted any of those presidents’ speeches by screaming at him from the gallery.

It’s an act of audacious disresepect that is literally unprecedented in the modern presidency.

That may make people feel better, but as Crazy Michele Bachmann made clear, you can give a quarter-million to an opponent but if the district is wingnut central, you might as well just mail those donations straight to the local TV affiliates.

I wouldn’t say that—it wasn’t really Tinklenberg’s fault that he only got enough money to run in the last month of the election.  Bachmann only won by about 12,000 votes.  Much lower and they would have ended up in a Coleman/Franken battle.  Plus there was a dark horse candidate that no one was paying attention to who got 40,000 votes.

They’re banned?  Or they’re not used for fear of incurring legal liability for slander?

nope. it’s parliamentary rules. in fact, anything said on the floor of the house of parliament is privileged, and the speaker cannot be held legally liable. parliamentarians are answerable to the speaker of the house, not to the courts. repeating an allegation outside of parliament will getcha sued right quick though.

They’re banned?  Or they’re not used for fear of incurring legal liability for slander?  Since truth is a defense in defamation suits, I would expect that you can call someone a criminal in Parliament if they are, in fact, a criminal.

Do you have a cite to the rules governing debate?

BABH, the simple fact is that the rules of behavior are EXTREMELY entrenched, and MP’s simply DO NOT call each other liars.  Take a look at this page here - http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-2245,00.html - for some guidance.

BABH: They’re banned?  Or they’re not used for fear of incurring legal liability for slander?

Banned. An MP can say anything they like in the House of Commons without being sued, but an MP who calls another MP a liar will be banned from the House by the Speaker until they apologize to the MP whom they insulted.

An MP is allowed to say “The right honourable gentleman (or lady) is not telling the truth” but not allowed to say “The right honourable gentleman is a liar” or any other insult for which a gentleman is entitled to demand satisfaction (challenge to a duel).

MPs are also provided with a loop over their coat hook outside the House of Commons on which to hang their duelling sword before entering the Chamber, because no fighting is permitted inside the Chamber, either.

(And the opposition and government benches are two sword-lengths apart, just in case anyone “forgot”.)

The closest thing I remember is during a Clinton State of the Union (I believe 1998 but can’t swear to that part), when the Republicans all scowled when he was introduced and sat on their hands.  They refused to stand and refused to applaud.  It was really a disgusting spectacle.  They acted very disrespectfully to Bill Clinton and we shouldn’t forget that.  Because as soon as shitbag W took office they began their relentless, 8- years long campaign to demonize as a traitor anyone who so much as raised a slight question about his ludicrous claims.  Republicans are always on the attack, always, and you forget that at your own risk when dealing with them.

However, even though I vividly remember everything they did to Clinton and every disrespect they showed to him, they topped themselves with Obama.  They went just a little bit further, and we’re only 8 months in.

I don’t think we need to wonder why do we?  As Atrios always says, what could it be about Obama that causes the right to act like this?  Let me think…

I didn’t know that about the British Parliament.  Funny that Brian Williams nor anyone else in the punditry class informed me of that while they were waxing on (or I should say, jerking off) over how this was right out of the British Parliament. 

I’m sureeeeee that our liberal media including Brian Williams would have said the same thing if somone had stood up and called Bush a liar during his famous 16 word I’m going to war and hundreds of thousands will meet early and eternal graves just because, speech.

Fuckwits.

I would expect that you can call someone a criminal in Parliament if they are, in fact, a criminal.
[...]  Do you have a cite to the rules governing debate?

BABH, You lie.

See, I can say that because a) A COMMENT THREAD IS A FORM OF DEBATE, NOT A PRESIDENTIAL ADDRESS, which is an entirely different thing altogether, one that calls for civilized behavior and respect, whether one is on this side of the pond—or aisle—or the other,  b) I am British, and I take great offense when idiots try to use the vigorous and oftentimes acrimonious DEBATES that take place in my country’s Parliament as an excuse to sling around ad hominem attacks, direct insults, and even racist slurs during an ADDRESS—and even in an actual debate (not an ADDRESS, which is what we’re talking about), there is a difference between saying Your plan is risibly stupid and saying You are being risibly stupid  and c) truth is an absolute defense.

Oh, Wilson might well have set a new precedent that will apply to all future Presidents, regardless of color, gender, etc—-

Any Democratic President can be denounced, catcalled, have toilet paper thrown at them, etc. Regardless of race or creed.

Any time we try to turn the tables (and the health care Fail Fiasco might guarantee us a new Republican come 2013, if not sooner via impeachment by an R-controlled House and Senate after 2010) they’ll point to the Bush precedent, in which a President/VP team who routinely uttered obvious falsehoods, carried out egregiously ill-founded policies, and were themselves quite rude and overbearing, got deference.

Very simple system—“R” stands for “Respect or else!”, “D” stands for “Damn and denounce.”

To do it the British/Canadian way would be UnAmerican after all.

Remember when Congress censured MoveOn for being meanies?  Yeah, I think this was a slightly larger example of name-calling and by one of their members, not a private group.

I am pleased that virtually the ONLY traction the GOP is getting out of this is coverage of Wilson’s temper tantrum.  It can’t help the image that they’re only about obstruction and not about debate.

On the other hand, I was pretty pleased that Obama included the section about Kennedy and, especially, his defense of liberalism.

I don’t care at all that this guy was rude.  What I care about is that he’s completely oblivious to reality.  I wonder if there is some way to bring a slander suit against him since, ya know, the president wasn’t actually lying.  I don’t care if he insults the president or is disrespectful in general.  I care that what he said just isn’t true.  He can be mean all he wants, he just can’t make stuff up for his own personal gain.

Catgirl, the best thing to do is to let “you lie” sit right where it is.  It’s generating a lot of money for Rob Miller, who came quite close to unseating him last November.  Miller has picked up over 100K in contributions in the last 12 hours. 

Sometimes, the best answer to stupid is a hearty “WTF???” and then to get right back to your OWN agenda.  If the Obama administration and Congress get derailed by a response to this stupidity, the stupidity has won.

I think another major difference between MPs often rowdy interaction with the Prime Minister and the respect generally shown to the President in Congress is that the President is our Head of State.  In England, the Queen is the Head of State and she is accordingly supposed to be treated with deference. 

The President is like a cross between the PM and the Queen.  We obviously need to criticize him sharply when warranted, but I also think that there should be a heightened respect accorded to him when interacting with him because his office is a symbol of the nation itself.

I can tell you, if a Democrat had yelled, “Liar!” at President Bush during a speech on the house floor, the Repubs would cite this as an example of liberals’ lack of patriotism.  I think Rep. Wilson is unpatriotic.  It is as if he neglected to wear his flag pin.

Just to clarify, the last sentence was tongue-in-cheek!

Funny that Brian Williams nor anyone else in the punditry class informed me of that while they were waxing on (or I should say, jerking off) over how this was right out of the British Parliament.

Because they then would have to go on to explain how the British Parliament, being European and all, is simply infested with .... SOCIALESTS!

“The low-class trashy behavior of Rep. Joe Wilson..” -PS

Wow, we’re all about women’s rights on this site but when someone gets emotional and yells it’s because he’s poor and trashy.

I don’t agree with Joe Wilson’s points but I have to say that it’s nice to see people yelling and screaming and not just sitting around like good little minions that think that being polite and working the system will fix everything. I mean you sat through eight years of Bush. Sometimes you just want to yell at the President.

I’m actually disappointed that he apologized, too. If you’re going to scream and piss people off, Joe Wilson, at least have the guts to back it up.

No, New Anarchist - he’s poor and trashy because he yells it.

I don’t think this loser Wilson has spent a needy day in his privileged life.  Meanwhile, he narrowly kept his seat and his challenger, a decorated Marine, is gunning for him with a newly enhanced warchest.

The significance is the same. If it were a woman yelling and I said she were a bitch, not because she was a woman, but because she was yelling, would it make a difference?

Since when is the president a fucking monarch? I thought we all were supposed to have gotten this out of our system last year. In general, without getting bogged down into armchair wankery over whether or not Westminster style MPs can call someone a liar, I’ll gladly take a more robust, adversarial style of politics anyday.

blockquote> Sometimes, the best answer to stupid is a hearty “WTF???” and then to get right back to your OWN agenda.  If the Obama administration and Congress get derailed by a response to this stupidity, the stupidity has won.
Comment #59: Ms Kate on 09/10 at 09:06 AM</blockquote>

Then again, Ms. Kate, for all their posturing about the President addressing school children, Wilson sure sets a horrible standard.  In case you don’t have kids in sports,  the latest pushes are Zero tolerance for not controlling your emotions in the heat of a game.  Even if you’re an 8 y o who jst got a stick in the face, or a ball in back you can’t retaliate, even verbally.  Even f you’re a parent in the stands watching your kid.  And this asshole gets away with it on national TV?  to the unquestionably duly elected President of the country?  With only a lip service apology?  Bullshit! ZERO TOLERANCE - he gets thrown out of Congress at best, at worst, stripped of all committee appointments.

Catgirl, the best thing to do is to let “you lie” sit right where it is.  It’s generating a lot of money for Rob Miller, who came quite close to unseating him last November.  Miller has picked up over 100K in contributions in the last 12 hours. 

Sometimes, the best answer to stupid is a hearty “WTF???” and then to get right back to your OWN agenda.  If the Obama administration and Congress get derailed by a response to this stupidity, the stupidity has won.

Exactly.  It’s actually turning out to be something that has backfired magnificently, not just for Wilson in his own re-election bid, but for the Republican Party in general.  I’ve heard that even John Boehner (a monumental douchebag in his own right) is furious with Wilson becuase of the negative attention it has drawn to the Republicans.

The best thing the Democrats can do is basically what Obama, Pelosi, Biden, and Michelle Obama did… give a “WTF?” facial expression, and then nod the head back in forth with disgust.

Post-speech polling showed that public support for healthcare reform rose more than ten points last night - I think that’s principally a result of Obama’s speechifying (particularly his close with the Teddy Kennedy “this is a human right!” point driven home), but I also have to believe that most reasonable centrists had to see Wilson’s outburst and think, “What the fuck is wrong with these people?”

Policy debates and elections are not won among the staunch right or the staunch left - they are won among the mushy middle.  Last night, President Obama and his call for healthcare reform clearly came out victorious among America’s mushy middle, and the Republicans looked petty and childish to everyone except their most extreme supporters.

TAN, your conflating two terms.  Low class doesn’t mean poor unless we’re specifying a financial, and then the appropriate term is “low income,” though sometimes “lower” class is incorrectly used as shorthand.  Low class means uneducated, unwilling to learn, mannerless, lacking of self-respect,.  For example, Brittany Spears, for all her $$ is low class.

This seems like it could branch off into a debate about class really quickly but I guess we should keep it on topic.

If this were W giving a speech during his term and a Democrat yelled at him, that Democrat would be hailed as exercising free speech, being an activist, holding the President accountable. But a Southern Republican yells and suddenly he’s low-class and trashy. It’s a double standard that I think a lot of people are tired of.

I’ve heard that even John Boehner (a monumental douchebag in his own right) is furious with Wilson because of the negative attention it has drawn to the Republicans.

Yep.  Boner got quite a bit of email last night.  Even if you have an R as your rep, he has to represent you, and he can’t usually know if you’re a d or r,  so Boner not only got it directly if you emailed him, your congress critter may well have been on the VIP line to him after you emailed them.

If this were W giving a speech during his term and a Democrat yelled at him, that Democrat would be hailed as exercising free speech, being an activist, holding the President accountable. But a Southern Republican yells and suddenly he’s low-class and trashy. It’s a double standard that I think a lot of people are tired of.

You just don’t get the point at all.  I would love for anyone to yell “You lie” to any president, if that president were actually lying.  Reality matters.  This isn’t about party lines or being polite.  You can’t just make shit up because you’re angry and don’t like the president.

If this were W giving a speech during his term and a Democrat yelled at him, that Democrat would be hailed as exercising free speech, being an activist, holding the President accountable.

Don’t be ridiculous. If a Democrat had done that, she’d have thousands and thousands of pissed-off Democratic constituents because she’d have done exactly the same thing Wilson just did, make an ass of herself and make the party look awful.

The time to mount an argument is when you can use that argument to demonstrate something, which is why Wilson wasn’t arguing, he was just heckling. Heckling isn’t about advancing any kind of coherent argument, it’s about manifesting disrespect for the speaker.

“Reality matters.” Are we still talking about politics?

And the reality in this case is not whether Obama is lying or not but whether people think that he is. Post 9/11, a lot of people THOUGHT that Bush was telling the truth about many important issues. Is Obama less of a liar than Bush? I think so. I hope so but I’m tired of candy-coating Presidents and taking their side over that of the people when it comes to incredulity toward the Executive. Power always gets abused. Leaders always lie. It’s just a matter of about what and when.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Wilson was correct in what he was yelling about. But I don’t agree that he was wrong for yelling. A lot of people are arguing that he’s bad simply because they think the yelling was improper, low-brow, tactless, things like that and I disagree on that end. Being an ass doesn’t make him any of those things. It also doesn’t make him any less of a protester, radical or activist. Just makes him an ass. I think we all agree there.

This “you can’t yell at the President” stuff has to stop. We should yell at him. We’re his boss.

just so you know, it’s already up:  http://joewilsonisyourpreexistingcondition.com/

No, you don’t yell in the middle of an address.

If we want to get back to having a functional government, both sides need to be able to make statements and listen to reactions and questions without assholes screaming at them and over them.

The fact that Wilson is 100% wrong is just a bonus. 

It’s one thing to disagree about policy.  It’s another just to scream and whine b/c your side lost the election (without vote tampering or a SCOTUS decision) and a scary, black man is now the President of the United States.

It’s also another thing when you claim your party stands for respect for the office and behaving civilly, and then you act the fool.  Hypocrisy sucks.

Now, Obama absolutely deserves to be criticized:  I sent a nasty gram back to their donation request last night.  But no one deserves to be interrupted in the middle of a scheduled address, it serves no one—not the speaker and not his audience.

Uh, uh.  The difference in everyday protestors yelling is that they really see themselves as voiceless and marginalized - often physically.  Their frustration becomes understandable at least. In addition, everyday citizens don’t command news conferences to yell back publicly.  Wilson’s physical place inside the hall, as well as his seats on committees in Congress, show his status as far from voiceless. 

That’s why there is no excuse for his incivility.

“If this were W giving a speech during his term and a Democrat yelled at him, that Democrat would be hailed as exercising free speech, being an activist, holding the President accountable.”

...that Democrat would have been lucky to make it out of the building alive.  Very likely some Republican in the rapture of Bush Worship would have beaten them to death with his cane…

I can’t get over this idea that somehow Wilson was contributing to discourse by screaming out an attack in the middle of an address. It’s so patently ridiculous.

Calling what he did “arguing” is like calling yelling and whistling at a woman on the street “getting acquainted with her” or “introducing yourself”. Both actions are intended to disrupt, not to engage.

n general, without getting bogged down into armchair wankery over whether or not Westminster style MPs can call someone a liar, I’ll gladly take a more robust, adversarial style of politics anyday.

Well, Amanda in the South Bay, this must be a case of the grass being greener on the other side of the fence, because on this side of the pond a lot of that Parliamentary shouting is considered by the public to be pretty damn childish.

Sure, there are debates when emotions are running high, but there’s an awful lot of loud, shouty nonsense as well.  I remember back in 1997 when quite a few more women entered the House of Commons that there was some media discussion over whether this would change the tenor of things and reduce some of the boys’/debating club atmosphere.

I can appreciate the desire for a bit more lively boisterousness, but quite a lot of it is just wankery.

“You’re actually arguing that interrupting the president in the middle of a speech on the floor of the House is perfectly acceptable behaviour?”

Yes. The idea that the President is an idol or that the place or the speech are sacred and inviolable is the kind of worship that makes health care reform take a hundred years. People walking on eggshells and worrying about looking childish and making sure they don’t step on anybody’s toes. Sometimes we think the system hinges on all this pomp and circumstance when it really hinges on our meaningful actions, titles and etiquette and platitudes be damned.

“That’s not anarchy, that’s childishness coupled with a total lack of basic social skills.”

It’s fun to pretend that a Representative doesn’t know how to behave in polite society but that would be like pretending that our society hasn’t tried to browbeat all of us into being polite little civilians worthy of Victorian etiquette. So don’t pretend Wilson didn’t know what would happen if he yelled. He knew. He was just sorry people called him out on it.

I think there are a lot of excuses for his incivility but that’s because I think that civility is just a control medium, anyway and that gets into a whole other mess.

Have a good day, guys.

TheNewAnarchist:

You don’t have to believe that the President is an idol to show a basic level of respect during a speech. Part of the non-hierarchical consensus process, which I’m sure you’re familiar with as an anarchist, is being quiet, listening to what others have to say, and waiting your turn. Do people adhere to this? Not always. But for change and understanding to happen, you have to use your listening hat for a while to make sure that you’re actually understanding what the other person is saying and processing what you would like to say once your turn comes around.

Trying to get rid of hierarchy means listening to and respecting everyone, which Wilson clearly did not do.

AnglScarlett: I didn’t know that about the British Parliament.  Funny that Brian Williams nor anyone else in the punditry class informed me of that while they were waxing on (or I should say, jerking off) over how this was right out of the British Parliament.

Really? Dear sweet jesus god, they really have no idea, do they? An MP who interrupted another MP who was making a speech by yelling “You Lie!” would be banned from the Chamber until they apologized. You do get heckling mid-speech, but it’s all written down in Hansard - an MP who heckles another MP will have their comment preserved for the next century. (The only exception is swearing: the Hansard scribes by tradition render that as “inaudible”.) Joe Wilson’s heckle fails on all counts as Parliamentary language: it was unacceptably personally insulting, it was itself a lie, and it wasn’t even witty - let alone interesting. It was just stupid rudeness. To survive as an MP in the House of Commons, you really can’t afford to be stupid and boring and rude. If Brian Williams hasn’t grasped that - who is he, anyway? - he needs a long course of Hansard reading.

Son, stupid, boring, and rude is no way to go through life…

Again, it is disrespectful to interrupt a speech.  It is not cool and it is not a way to have anything constructive happen.

Screaming insults does nothing to further understanding or discourse.  This was a prepared speech at a prepared time.  The very least Wilson should have done was listen, and many of his fellow GOPers couldn’t be bothered to do that, as they were busy texting during the speech.

No other President has ever been heckled on national TV during a speech by a member of Congress.  This was a new low, and he should be censured.  I don’t think Wilson did realize how much of a shitstorm he was going to get.  He knew the Dems would be upset, but he didn’t expect any blowback from his own party and he certainly didn’t expect his opponent to be sent $200K over the next 18 hours.  Oops.

Sorry you hate the rules, but sometimes they are necessary if you want to get anything done.  If nothing else, it shows that actions have consequences, and if you act like an ass, even if you are an entitled, rich, corporately-owned member of Congress, you might have to pay for it.

If you just want to scrabble in the streets, though, fuck the rules.

“Sorry you hate the rules, but sometimes they are necessary if you want to get anything done.  If nothing else, it shows that actions have consequences, and if you act like an ass, even if you are an entitled, rich, corporately-owned member of Congress, you might have to pay for it.

If you just want to scrabble in the streets, though, fuck the rules.” -C

It’s interesting that this has boiled down to an impassioned defense of procedure. It was one guy yelling two words. We’re not talking about chaos in the streets here. If we can’t take that kind of breach in the rules for three seconds, we’re taking the rules way too seriously.

Have a good day, then, er, TheNewAnarchist.  *cough*

It was a good discussion. Had to come back. What, did I break the rules?

An MP who interrupted another MP who was making a speech by yelling “You Lie!” would be banned from the Chamber until they apologized.

the other thing here is that this speech by obama is not really comparable to a speech in parliament, given that he is not a legislator—he’s part of the executive branch. in britain/canada, there isn’t a separation, really.

the only thing that i can think of that comes close to this situation would be mps heckling the throne speech, which is written by the government of the day (outlining their legislative agenda for the session) but delivered by the queen or (here in canada) her representative. and to the best of my knowledge, one simply does not heckle the throne speech.

i have no problem with obama being questioned/debated. but i do think that this was not the place. and i think it’s interesting that it only became “ok” in some people’s minds when a person of colour was president.

It’s interesting that this has boiled down to an impassioned defense of procedure. It was one guy yelling two words. We’re not talking about chaos in the streets here. If we can’t take that kind of breach in the rules for three seconds, we’re taking the rules way too seriously.

It was a lying, racist, hypocrite interrupting the President in an unprecedented breach of etiquette with a remark that is factually inaccurate to say the least.  It came from a member of a party that likes to claim the moral high road, but is actually full of racist filth.  It came from a man who is known to have made racist statements and who belongs to a lovely white supremecist group.

You simply can’t say it was a guy yelling two words, because it most certainly was much, much more than that.

Talk about taking things out of context.

What, did I break the rules?

No, you didn’t break the rules, but you did ruin a good flounce.

In case no one else has seen this, Wilson is pretty obviously acting according to racist pattern: “It’s a smear on the image that (Thurmond) has as a person of high integrity who has been so loyal to the people of South Carolina,” he told The State newspaper of Columbia. Wilson had worked as an intern in Thurmond’s office. After a public outcry, he said he had the utmost respect for Washington-Williams.”

Make the outrageous racist statement, then cravenly apologize when he gets called on it.  Gives him the opportunity to show that he’s not quite given up the sheet to the hardcore racists, while winning some points forthe apology with the more gullible sane folk.

to the best of my knowledge, one simply does not heckle the throne speech.

I think if someone heckled the Queen during her speech at the opening of Parliament, there wouldn’t be enough shovels in the world to dig him/her out of the shit they’d be in.