Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Here’s a fantastic youth and technology outreach opportunity for the McCain campaign! Previous entry: How about a trend piece on the choice of spinster aunthood?*

Review: The God Delusion

BooksReligion

Update: The cracker is gone.  The post is worth reading because PZ explains how the puffery around the supposed sacredness of communion wafers is linked to finding excuses to torture and kill Jews.  Something to consider if you have an urge to treat treacly Catholic nonsense, from opposition to birth control to sanctifying women who die in childbirth to acting like communion wafers and embryos are more important than people, like it’s harmless goofery.  It’s interesting to see the emails he got, which resemble ones I’ve gotten in the past from people whose minds have been completely ruined by religion. Except they’re even more crazy. I can say that most half-crazed emails I get make me laugh, but the pitiful ones from true believers just depress me.  They’re just broken people, and I blame the church.

Sorry it took me so long to write a proper review of The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.  I half expected the book to be a hateful screed against religious people, since it was treated that way by critics, but as usual when it comes to these things, religion is being sheltered from criticism by conflating criticism of it, or even mockery, as if it’s as bad or worse than hurting actual human beings.  (Recent example: Caterwauling over the desecration of a cracker of a length and volume that the death of human beings rarely gets.  People, blasphemy is a victimless crime.)  The book actually takes the view that I do of most religious people, which is that they’re the primary victims of religion, either because of the brainwashing by their own or the violent oppression by those who follow other religions.  If anything, Dawkins’ meme theory tends to make him more sanguine about religious people than I feel, as he thinks that religion has somewhat taken a life of its own and infects hosts, which are believers.  My cynicism about the motivations of those who use religion to exploit and control people tends to color my views, but he’s absolutely right to look at religion as its own entity that can be examined for how it spreads and survives without necessarily getting into a pissing match over whether or not the people who actively push it are bad, or if some are bad, or whether or not the bad outnumber the good or whatever. 


I think what made this book so offensive is not that Dawkins is a meany-meanhead, but because he’s perfectly happy to have some fun with ridiculous ideas.  But more to the point, he violates an unspoken social rule, which is that people with a minority view are the ones who carry the burden of explaining themselves, and replaces that with the argument that the people with the more outrageous claims bear the burden of proof.  True, the latter is actually a pretty standard rule in logical argumentation, but nevertheless we can expect howling and wailing because most people are used to the might-makes-right social order.  You see a similar situation with the arguments about homosexuality.  Homophobes actually bear the burden of proof in a logical argument, because their claim (that people who engage in this behavior have an obligation to the rest of us to cut it out, even though they aren’t hurting anyone) is more outrageous than the default claim that people should be free to do what they want as long as they aren’t hurting anyone.  But in a similar way, they caterwaul and scream because they want to stick with the might makes right method. 

The book is well-ordered and well-argued.  First, he demonstrates why faith requires more defense than non-faith, because the existence of a god or gods is far more improbable than such beings not existing.  He argues it well, drawing on science heavily, but in sum it comes down to the argument that if the complexity of the universe requires a god to explain it, then you need an even more outrageous explanation for where god came from, which creates this ever-growing pantheon of gods like an endless stream of images when you face two mirrors together.  Or you could assume complex life evolved, and he shows you why that’s a better, more satisfying explanation.

Okay, the atheist position is the more logical one.  Which is where the debate starts to fall apart, because religious defenders move onto the next argument, which is that we need religion/religion is inevitable.  This makes me bonkers, and Dawkins explains why—-its a sleight of hand.  Saying that it’s beneficial to believe in god doesn’t make god real, any more than me saying that a million dollar deposit in my bank account would be beneficial makes it true.  Really, to me the argument should stop there, but people do get infatuated with the Noble Lie (and its corresponding misanthropic insinuations that most people are sheep that need lies to exist), so Dawkins does take some of the major arguments that go under the headline, “Okay, So What If There’s No God, We Need Religion Anyway”.  He shows that the claims about religion’s benefits are highly overrated, which is probably where people get the idea that this is a long book bashing religion as a force of pure evil.  It’s not so much that as he’s showing that it’s not good and doesn’t produce the good results promised.  (Though he does get into some parts where he argues that religion does bring evil into the world that might not exist without it, while caveating that to death with acknowledgment that people will do bad things under many banners.)  Sadly, he stops by showing that the promised benefits are not there, and doesn’t go further into some cause/effect analysis that I think would go even further in arguing against religion.

Two examples: Arguments for social order and arguments for consoling the dying/the grieving.  In both cases, it can not only be argued that religious people/communities are no more morally superior or consoled than non-religious people, but that they’re worse off.  On the moral front, it’s well-established that the religiosity in geographical regions of the U.S. correlates with poor community outcomes, with the crime rates, poverty rates, divorce rates, and even STD and unplanned pregnancy rates being higher in more religious areas.  That’s pretty damning evidence against the argument that religion just makes people better and communities work better.  But what he doesn’t address, is what I’m interested in, is the idea that the more a community spirals out of control, the more the people in it are driven into the arms of religion.  I suspect that could be a cause that might be illuminated with more research.

On the consolation of death fears thing, there’s actually been research done that shows that the more people fear death, the more they have this cluster of religious and especially conservative religious tendencies, including misogyny.  Which casts an interesting light on Dawkins’ observations that people that believe they’re going to heaven nonetheless seemed terrified of dying, often far more than atheists ever do.  (He quotes Mark Twain saying he was dead for billions of years before he was born, and that didn’t cause him any problems, which tends to be my view on death.)  Dawkins argument—-that if religion is supposed to console you about your death, it’s doing a terrible job because the religious are not coping very well with thoughts of their own mortality—-is great, but I’d like to go a step further.  Say that there’s a correlation between fearing death and being religious, and it’s because the fear of death and existential crisis in general drives people towards religion.  Doesn’t that make religion even worse?

I say yes.  Existential crisis is an ordinary human flaw, completely understandable.  It gets us all at various times. When religious leaders exploit people’s fears like this in order to line their own pockets or increase their own power, I get angry.  It’s a total grift.  People have a need—-to be consoled about their own deaths—-and religion sells them a bunch of lies that don’t even do a good job, in no small part because they’re lies.  It’s pretty disgusting, if you step back from it.  But no one likes to have it pointed out to them that they’ve been had.  We’ve all seen it in the situation where someone is dating someone that is No Good.  Their level of defensiveness about their choices rises as they become more aware that the partner of their choice is trouble.  You know, until the day when they wake up and realize that the energy they’re putting into defending a bad choice would be better used elsewhere. 

For what it’s worth, I can already see the followers of various Abrahamic religions gathering their arguments defending religion by referring to religions they don’t follow, like Buddhism.  Suffice it to say, that line of defense always amuses me.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:00 PM • (270) Comments

”...more outrageous than the default claim that people should be free to do what they want as long as they aren’t hurting anyone. “

?? Is that _really_ the default claim? ‘Cuz that would kinda jerk the rug out of most conservative social policy, since they seem to be a bunch of nosy parkers.  (Or is that Nosy Parkers?)

Or do they just claim injury at some abstract level, like “It damages teh fambly structurmajig.” ?

Comment #1: Eric, Rejector of Memes  on  07/24  at  07:08 PM

Oops, “out FROM UNDER”, of course…..

Comment #2: Eric, Rejector of Memes  on  07/24  at  07:09 PM

“people that believe they’re going to heaven nonetheless seemed terrified of dying, often far more than atheists ever do.”

This is because God keeps a record of all the shit you did and they know that even though they’re “saved”, they’re gonna burn once God checks their file.

Comment #3: Mark  on  07/24  at  07:16 PM

It would be the default claim under a logical system that assumes that freedom is better than not-freedom, yes.  Read the post carefully.  I’m not talking about what most people believe.  I’m talking about what is the most logical starting point with certain assumptions.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  07:18 PM

Recent example: Caterwauling over the desecration of a cracker of a length and volume that the death of human beings rarely gets.  People, blasphemy is a victimless crime.)
You guys covered this?  Shit!  I missed out name dropping the fact that this guy is someone I personally know and go to school with.
If you want an update; the Senate just impeached him.

Comment #5: Jonathan Hohensee  on  07/24  at  07:20 PM

A preface:  I really like your work, Amanda.  So this is no attack of you or your review.

I thought the best part of the book was chronicling of stuff from the Old Testament, a la Cracked’s “9 Badass Bible Verses”

http://www.cracked.com/article_15699_9-most-badass-bible-verses.html

But, this is simply not a good book.  JL Mackie’s _The Miracle of Theism_ is a far better defense of atheism.  Dawkins simply isn’t very good at doing philosophy (and, for whatever it’s worth, no philosopher I know (and I know many, as this is my field) thinks this book is any good).


Links to two reviews.

First, that of Thomas Nagel, a staunch atheist and one of the most influential philosophers alive.
http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20061023&s=nagel102306


Second, that of Alvin Plantinga, the leading philosopher of religion alive and one of the most important philosophers of the last 50 years

http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2007/002/1.21.html

I was hopeful about this book.  In fact, before I had read it I had considered using it in some intro to philosophy courses.  But the philosophy is just no good.

We’re no longer in the 17th or 18th centuries, when a brilliant person like Leibniz could master broad swaths of knowledge in very different fields.  Fields of study today are incredibly specialized.  However, in our climate of science worship (and I worship science more than most people do, I think), we think that natural scientists are qualified to make pronouncements about all sorts of issues that aren’t scientific.  Just as I cringe when theologians make pronouncements about science because usually they have no idea what they’re talking about, I also cringe when scientists make pronouncements about philosophy or religious studies (see also Beckwith, Weinberg, Collins, etc.).

Comment #6: MattD  on  07/24  at  08:01 PM

If you want an update; the Senate just impeached him.

Wow, you went to school with Bill Clinton?

Comment #7: Notorious P.A.T.  on  07/24  at  08:04 PM

we think that natural scientists are qualified to make pronouncements about all sorts of issues that aren’t scientific. 

I haven’t read Dawkins’s book.  However, it looks to me from Amanda’s description that Dawkins is perfectly qualified to talk about what he talks about.  An expert in evolutionary biology can and should tackle religion, since most religions have a creation story at their core (one that is easily falsified using scientific fact).  Knowing about biology also gives a person insight into how people behave and think.  Now, if Dawkins said that because he’s an expert in biology we should drive the same kind of car as him or submit to his views on string theory, that would be a different ball of wax.

In fact, though I’m a big fan of philosophy (many of Hume’s works are on the bookshelf next to my bed) I would say that a scientist is, today, better qualified to destroy religious notions than an abstract logician. 

Though philosophers are welcome to do so as well.  Religion is such a chain of weak links, there are plenty of fields that can justify taking a whack at it.

Comment #8: Notorious P.A.T.  on  07/24  at  08:12 PM

Dawkins simply isn’t very good at doing philosophy (and, for whatever it’s worth, no philosopher I know (and I know many, as this is my field) thinks this book is any good).

Naturally, as the book is informative, clear, and on-point -  a direct threat to the philosopher’s mission to be an obstacle to knowledge.

Of course they hate it.

Second, that of Alvin Plantinga, the leading philosopher of religion alive and one of the most important <strike>philosophers</strike> bullshit peddlers of the last 50 years

Fixed it for you. Why on Earth philosophers think they have anything to add to this discussion is beyond me, but it’s hilarious to observe their pique at the fact that Dawkins went off and disproved God without so much as a “by-your-leave” to the academic bullshit artists.

Comment #9: Chet  on  07/24  at  08:12 PM

From converations I’ve had about the book, I’ve found that the “The God Delusion” is most useful and comforting for those people whose faith has lapsed, particularly for those who came from very religious families. It lets them know, with clean logic and even kindness (which is not a characteristic generally applied to Dawkins’ writing, even by his supporters) that they made the right choice when they rejected magical crackers and the Invisible Bearded Sky Man(tm),

Unfortunately, as much ground as reality-based liberals gain against the religious fantasists and the confidence artists who prey on them, Enlightenment values take a hit just as often in Western democracies founded on those principles:

Why Islam Is Unfunny for a Cartoonist
The arrest of a controversial Dutch cartoonist has set off a wave of protests. The case is raising questions for a changing Europe about free speech, religion and art.

By ANDREW HIGGINS
July 12, 2008; Page W1 [Wall Street Journal]

On a sunny May morning, six plainclothes police officers, two uniformed policemen and a trio of functionaries from the state prosecutor’s office closed in on a small apartment in Amsterdam. Their quarry: a skinny Dutch cartoonist with a rude sense of humor. Informed that he was suspected of sketching offensive drawings of Muslims and other minorities, the Dutchman surrendered without a struggle.

[ http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB121581460304047109.html?mod=2_1578_topbox ]

 

The article goes on to discuss the work of this (pretty nasty and bigoted) cartoonist, and the fact that the Dutch government actually funds an organisation which monitors the Net for (amongst other things) offensive cartoons.

So yes, ladies and gentlemen, it’s cartoons again. Cartoons!

Comment #10: Gracchus  on  07/24  at  08:14 PM

It’s the Noble Lie stuff that bothers me the most. I am temperamentally suspicious and cynical of people.  I keep worrying that the assholes who consider the public to be cattle fit only for fleecing or slaughter may be on to something.

I’ve talked with my dad about this. Dad believes that the government ought to lie to the public because the public is just too childish to handle truths. The wierd thing is, Dad seems rather prone to believing some pretty absurd things himself. So, does he think, please lie to those idiots out in the public for their own good? Or please lie to me for my own good?

I can’t figure it all out.

Comment #11: atheist  on  07/24  at  08:16 PM

Matt, what I liked about it was that it wasn’t deep and complicated.  That’s what made it awesome.  Religion is pitiful and doesn’t deserve a deep discussion.  The whole point of the book is that religious claims are so silly they can be blown away in a puff.  This book is perfect for what it is, a book arming ordinary atheists with straightforward, simple arguments that treat religion with the derision it deserves. 

Seriously, reading the comment thread at PZ’s, with the insincere “I’ll pray for you” crap that’s going on over there only reconfirms that the problem with atheist arguments in the past is they treat religion with more respect than it deserves.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  08:19 PM

Just to be clear, when we’re talking about religion, are we doing so generally?

Comment #13: Linnaeus  on  07/24  at  08:23 PM

Is there a god that’s real and deserves respect?  I do think that the real gods probably deserve more consideration than the fake ones.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  08:23 PM

I’m just asking because in discussions like these, there’s a tendency to define religion as being Christianity, or particular forms of it.  If that’s what people mean, then they should be more specific.  If we’re indicting religion generally, that implicates a lot of different cultures.

Comment #15: Linnaeus  on  07/24  at  08:27 PM

“Is there a god that’s real and deserves respect?”

No.

Comment #16: Mark  on  07/24  at  08:28 PM

“Why on Earth philosophers think they have anything to add to this discussion is beyond me”

Because it’s philosophy he’s doing?

And whether or not you like Plantinga’s views, there is universal respect (among those whose opinions have validity) for his arguments and mind.  And if you think otherwise, you have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about, and should shut the hell up.

__
Grac:  I’m lapsed and didn’t find it comforting.  But it may well be comforting to others. 
___
Not: Hume is my favorite philosopher.  But in reasoning about philosophy, a large literature of pretty abstruse arguments have been developed since his death in 1776 (and Hume is the parent of much of this reasoning).  But, short of many years of education in that current body of knowledge, scientists aren’t in a position to address it in its complexity and fullness.  (This is consistent, of course, with the fact that there are areas that scientists can criticize well; though I don’t think that their being scientists gives them unique insight into this area—any smart person could criticize such areas well.)

Comment #17: MattD  on  07/24  at  08:28 PM

We’re no longer in the 17th or 18th centuries, when a brilliant person like Leibniz could master broad swaths of knowledge in very different fields.  Fields of study today are incredibly specialized.  However, in our climate of science worship (and I worship science more than most people do, I think), we think that natural scientists are qualified to make pronouncements about all sorts of issues that aren’t scientific.  Just as I cringe when theologians make pronouncements about science because usually they have no idea what they’re talking about, I also cringe when scientists make pronouncements about philosophy or religious studies (see also Beckwith, Weinberg, Collins, etc.).

Yawn. The Courtier’s Reply:

Until Dawkins has trained in the shops of Paris and Milan, until he has learned to tell the difference between a ruffled flounce and a puffy pantaloon, we should all pretend he has not spoken out against the Emperor’s taste. His training in biology may give him the ability to recognize dangling genitalia when he sees it, but it has not taught him the proper appreciation of Imaginary Fabrics.

Comment #18: Ken Cope  on  07/24  at  08:30 PM

I half expected the book to be a hateful screed against religious people,

Are you sure you know what a hateful screen against religious people would look like?

Comment #19: blow my funk filled bratwurst  on  07/24  at  08:33 PM

Oy vay-

We’re going to have that “is philosophy useful” bs argument in this thread again, aren’t we?

Look, philosopher’s are either ignored or killed- and that’s straight from my philosophy professor.  They aren’t bullshit artist- they’re trying to come up with comprehensive ways to construct the universe.  Philosophers invented the freaking scientific method, for chrissake- they aren’t science’s opposition.

If you don’t like philosophy, or you have difficult understanding it, that’s your thing.  But just because you don’t understand doesn’t mean you have the right to malign it.  And just because this book wasn’t a strong philosophy tract doesn’t mean it isn’t useful or clear for non-philosophy people.

Comment #20: Antigone  on  07/24  at  08:33 PM

Yeah, I mention at the end how followers of Abrahamic religions like to hide behind religions they believe are false to defend their own religious beliefs.  But no, I’m not actually saying that just Yahweh is not real.  I also don’t believe in Zeus, any Hindu gods, or pagan goddesses.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  08:33 PM

Matt, Philosophers have nothing to add because it’s not a philosophical question. There isn’t a god. Dwakins is saying people who believe that are stupid. He is correct.

Comment #22: Mark  on  07/24  at  08:35 PM

I’m just asking because in discussions like these, there’s a tendency to define religion as being Christianity, or particular forms of it.  If that’s what people mean, then they should be more specific.  If we’re indicting religion generally, that implicates a lot of different cultures.

One of the inherent weaknesses of Dawkins’ brand of atheism is that there’s this tendency to consider any form of theism that doesn’t jibe closely with the daddy-god monotheism they grew up with as “not really theism”, or a “grey area” that isn’t worth considering, or actually just a tarted-up version of atheism.

What’s funny is that it’s the exact same weakness that C. S. Lewis shows in Mere Christianity, treating “Christianity is correct/best” and “Theism is correct/best” as one and the same.

Comment #23: The Opoponax  on  07/24  at  08:36 PM

Whoops. “Dawkins”.

Comment #24: Mark  on  07/24  at  08:36 PM

Amanda: “[W]hat I liked about it was that it wasn’t deep and complicated.”

I think this is fine for some of the issues he addresses, but many of the issues at hand are deep and complicated.  And I think that treatments of them need to respect that fact.

I’m quite sure that my experience with religious people is different than that of many of my ideological friends (viz. liberals).  Some of the most decent people I know are religious, and more than a few of the best philosophical minds today (those who are best situated to ascertain truths in the philosophy of religion) are also religious.  So, while I see batshit insane and evil stuff like the comments leveled at PZ and get incredibly angry, I see many people around me who are both religious and impressive in a variety of manners.

I say all this as someone who isn’t religious.

Comment #25: MattD  on  07/24  at  08:36 PM

I had a feeling that’s what you were getting at in the last paragraph of your post, Amanda, and I do agree that it’s a bit strange to see followers of one religion defending their particular belief set with another.

I’m also saying, though, that once one takes on religion generally, there are certain cultural pitfalls one has to be aware of.  Especially so when one considers religion in, say, a postcolonial context.

Comment #26: Linnaeus  on  07/24  at  08:38 PM

‘Cuz that would kinda jerk the rug out of most conservative social policy, since they seem to be a bunch of nosy parkers.  (Or is that Nosy Parkers?)

I believe you mean Parker Poseys (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000205/)?

Comment #27: pablo  on  07/24  at  08:38 PM

Because it’s philosophy he’s doing?

Is it? The question of whether or not something exists is a scientific, not a philosophical, question.

I’m aware that it’s the universal tendency of philosophers to seek credit for other people’s work - hence, “philosophy of science” - but the bitching and moaning of philosophers about how, just this once, we’ve decided to get to the bottom of what is most likely true without giving them their chance to shit all over the entire endeavor really gets to the heart of why philosophy joins theology and economics as three fields with no rigor whatsoever.

And whether or not you like Plantinga’s views, there is universal respect (among those whose opinions have validity) for his arguments and mind.

Huh. A philosopher with a hidden circular argument! Imagine that.

The only thing I know about Plantinga’s “mind” is that he uses it to spew bullshit, like the bullshit in his review. It’s telling that not even the GREATEST LIVING MIND IN PHILOSOPHY(!!!) is even able to grapple with Dawkins points without erecting a strawman.

Hume is my favorite philosopher.

Another shocker. Hume is widely recognized, among people who discern things for a living, as the single greatest threat to learning anything.

Comment #28: Chet  on  07/24  at  08:39 PM

One of the inherent weaknesses of Dawkins’ brand of atheism

That’s actually the inherent strength, Op, but as always you can be relied upon to have gotten it completely backwards.

Dawkins brand of atheism means that you can’t defend theology as it is actually practiced from atheists by shifting the definition of “theism” to mean atheism. Like Plantinga, you’ve failed to apprehend that Dawkins has already cut you off at the knees. Dawkins hasn’t ignored anything but the attempts of religion’s defenders to play wordgames.

Comment #29: Chet  on  07/24  at  08:44 PM

I’m not sure what’s deep and complicated.  Whether there is a god?  I think he actually addresses that to any reasonable person’s satisfaction.  Whether or not it’s right to lie to people in order to get them to be obedient or not?  I mean, if you want to make it more complicated, you can, but actually I think philosophy becomes more interesting once you get past paying lip service to the illogical idea that religion deserves much consideration.  Dawkins isn’t trying to write a book of philosophy.  He’s writing a book on why there’s not a god, and why it’s not right to tell people there is when there isn’t. 

There’s no reason for philosophers to feel competitive with this book.  He openly praises philosophy as a far better source of moral reasoning and dealing with the existential questions than religion could ever be.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  08:45 PM

And while I agree that there are lots of nice religious people, there are also nice people who believe in psychics or voted for Bush.  We can be ruthless about incorrect and damaging beliefs and behaviors while maintaining respect for people who hold them much of the time.  In fact, as I say in the post, religious people are the greatest victims of religion.  Reading, for instance, the thread at PZ’s, it’s clear to me the people who are fucked up the most in this whole thing are those whose brains have been addled by Catholicism.  If they weren’t religious, they’d be a lot better off right now as we speak. But instead, they’re getting bent out of shape over a sleight against their imaginary friend. I don’t blame PZ.  I blame the morons who told them that god is a cracker.

This carries on to liberal Christians I’ve known, for what it’s worth. (For an instance I have the most experience with.) They’re constantly struggling on how to reconcile the undeniably reactionary tone of their scriptures with their actual moral beliefs derived from elsewhere.  It’s a huge waste of time and energy they could, as intelligent, good people, put to better uses.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  08:50 PM

Dawkins brand of atheism means that you can’t defend theology as it is actually practiced from atheists by shifting the definition of “theism” to mean atheism.

If someone calls themselves a theist, and participates in something they call a religion, and believes in something they consider to be supernatural, I think the most respectful thing to do is to trust them and agree that they are, in fact, theists participating in a religion that involves itself with the supernatural.  The same way that it’s disrespectful when theists decide that atheism and/or science is just another form of religious belief.

You’re free not to agree with the beliefs they hold, but it’s disingenuous to decide that they’re not what they claim to be simply because it messes with your worldview.

Comment #32: The Opoponax  on  07/24  at  08:54 PM

I’m confused.  Is anyone saying that a religious person isn’t participating the worship of what they believe is supernatural? No one is saying that.  I think everyone believes that they believe what they say they believe, at least some of the time.  (As Dawkins points out, it’s clear that your average believer isn’t all that convinced or they’d be eager to die, instead of dreading it.) 

The point of the debate is this.  They claim there’s a god/gods.  Atheists say there’s not.  That’s a legitimate point of disagreement, and things get confused because religious people, aware that they’re never going to win the real argument, start flinging shit and trying to distract from the main issue.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  08:57 PM

Amanda:  You may be right.  I don’t want to become a religious apologist here.  I have many of the same problems with it that you do, I think. 

On the other hand, I think the left in the US would to well to avoid the Sam Harris/Bill Maher approach to religion, if only because it drives people into the arms of evil people like George Bush.

I’d be interested to hear your reaction to JL Mackie’s _The Miracle of Theism_
http://tinyurl.com/5f3j3t

It is, in my opinion, a far better book than Dawkins’, and far more in keeping with what atheism deserves.

Comment #34: MattD  on  07/24  at  08:57 PM

I mean, atheists to the last one I’ve known respect that when someone says, “I’m Catholic and I go to mass to worship Jesus,” they’re telling the truth.  What doesn’t deserve respect is claims that Jesus was god and died for a sins.  That’s a genuine claim that causes genuine suffering in the world and qualifies for being criticized, like all other claims and ideas.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/24  at  09:00 PM

People took offense because it was a widely-publicised polemic, which was represented as being enlightening. Whichever side it happens to represent, a polemic makes people feel good if they share the initial viewpoint, but if you’re on the other side what else would you do but argue with someone stating that anyone who believes as you do, or even something roughly analagous to it, is mentally ill in some way? We rightly condemn people on the right who make those kinds of generalisations, is it okay because someone you agree with is saying it?

To label religion as being intrinsically suspect is a pretty big leap. Religion doesn’t make anyone violent or oppressive, just as it doesn’t make anyone virtuous. Neither does atheism. To claim that believing in one or the other thereby grants somone the kind of moral and intellectual superiority to judge opposing beliefs as being responsible for the world’s ills (which I’ve heard from both sides, and which are equally ridiculous) takes a strong will and a hefty set of blinkers.

Comment #36: Rockit  on  07/24  at  09:02 PM

Though I don’t agree that theists know that they won’t win an argument on this issue.  Just as Dawkins isn’t as good as naturalism deserves, many of the religious thinkers one typically encounters aren’t as good as religion deserves.

Comment #37: MattD  on  07/24  at  09:03 PM

Rockit:

Amen.  Or something like that.  I was in the process of writing roughly what you said, but your post is more eloquent than mine would have been.

Comment #38: MattD  on  07/24  at  09:05 PM

Dawkins isn’t as good as naturalism deserves

Yeah, but until we can find the hunka hunka burrrrnin’ atheism that you apparently are looking for, we’ll have to do with Dawkins. Who, actually, sounds pretty excellent to me. I want to read his book now.

This guy has a lot of good arguments for atheism, if you want a good one-stop source for all your godless needs.

Comment #39: atheist  on  07/24  at  09:08 PM

As Dawkins points out, it’s clear that your average believer isn’t all that convinced or they’d be eager to die, instead of dreading it

This atheism thing is much more fun when “religion” is a big uniform quasi-Christian blob, isn’t it?

Heaven is a feature of some religions - Christianity and Islam spring to mind - but not all. Some don’t believe in an afterlife, some see an afterlife as a burden, some have no opinion on exactly what happens next. Even a belief in Heaven isn’t incompatible with a scientific understanding: you can intellectually know something and emotionally be unable to accept it. We have a very strong survival instinct - that’s why we’re still around as a species - and it’s hard to override that for spiritual or intellectual reasons, period. (Using a secular example, kind of the way we know that an SO is an ass and the relationship is going nowhere, but still have trouble actually DTMFA.)

Comment #40: mythago  on  07/24  at  09:09 PM

One of the inherent weaknesses of Dawkins’ brand of atheism is that there’s this tendency to consider any form of theism that doesn’t jibe closely with the daddy-god monotheism they grew up with as “not really theism”, or a “grey area” that isn’t worth considering, or actually just a tarted-up version of atheism.

Thank you, Op.  I don’t see why anti-theists cling so desperately to strawmen and imprecise terminology to prove points.  As I understand it, Dawkins dismisses my faith and all those like it in a couple of sentences stating nobody believes that kind of shit anymore.  So he definitely knows what he’s talking about.

Comment #41: lonespark  on  07/24  at  09:11 PM

Amanda:

“What doesn’t deserve respect is claims that Jesus was god and died for a sins.  That’s a genuine claim that causes genuine suffering in the world…”

This I don’t see either.  Perhaps this conjoined with the imperative to evangelize, propositions about the existence and nature of hell, and propositions about the ability of individuals to influence the eternal destiny of others—perhaps all of those may lead to suffering. 

But I don’t see how the Christian message of salvation *simplicter* causes suffering.

Comment #42: MattD  on  07/24  at  09:18 PM

god is a cracker

Incomplete.

  god is a cracker which we eat.

Ritual theophagy comes a little too close to cannibalism for my taste, but some people seem to like it.

Comment #43: rea  on  07/24  at  09:21 PM

Amanda,

what are your feelings about what PZ Myers did?

Comment #44: KLH  on  07/24  at  09:29 PM

One of the inherent weaknesses of Dawkins’ brand of atheism is that there’s this tendency to consider any form of theism that doesn’t jibe closely with the daddy-god monotheism they grew up with as “not really theism”, or a “grey area” that isn’t worth considering, or actually just a tarted-up version of atheism.

Not really. Any supernatural belief is as unsupportable and illogical as any other, whether it concerns a monotheistic god or not. There’s nowhere in the book that Dawkins rates non-monotheistic supernatural beliefs above daddy-god beliefs.

Using a secular example, kind of the way we know that an SO is an ass and the relationship is going nowhere, but still have trouble actually DTMFA.

So when you see someone who’s staying in a bad relationship because she’s afraid to DTMFA, you can sympathize with her and want her to get out of the relationship for her own sake without blaming her for being afraid to. Dawkins doesn’t put it exactly like that, but it’s very compatible with what he says.

Comment #45: junk science  on  07/24  at  09:32 PM

One of the inherent weaknesses of Dawkins’ brand of atheism is that there’s this tendency to consider any form of theism that doesn’t jibe closely with the daddy-god monotheism they grew up with as “not really theism”, or a “grey area” that isn’t worth considering, or actually just a tarted-up version of atheism.

I don’t think it’s a weakness at all. I think its accurate. It is no mistake that many kinds of Buddhism are referred to as atheist religions because they have no gods or afterlife (Theravada, I believe). There are other types of Buddhism that do believe in Gods, and heaven, and have hells too. These types of Buddhism are religious, in the same way that Christianity is.

Comment #46: atheist  on  07/24  at  09:34 PM

Amanda’s last paragraph has proven to be quite prescient.  Arguing against specific religious beliefs is unfair, because some people believe entirely different ridiculous things.

That’s a bit like saying it’s unfair to criticize conservatism in general, because hey, not all conservatives believe in endless war and giant tax breaks for the super-rich.  Why, some even claim to support civil liberties!  Therefore, there’s no reason to think that conservatism is a force for ill in the world.  After all, some conservatives are very nice people, right?  It’s just not fair to judge conservatism based on the views of the vast majority of conservatives, nosirree bob.

Comment #47: Jrod  on  07/24  at  09:36 PM

I don’t think it’s a weakness at all. I think its accurate. It is no mistake that many kinds of Buddhism are referred to as atheist religions because they have no gods or afterlife (Theravada, I believe).

Do atheist religions then count as “religion”?  I’m not trying to be obtuse or difficult here.  There’s still some supernatural element, no?

Comment #48: Linnaeus  on  07/24  at  09:38 PM

MattD says:
So, while I see batshit insane and evil stuff like the comments leveled at PZ and get incredibly angry, I see many people around me who are both religious and impressive in a variety of manners.

If those nice religious people you know are impressive in a variety of manners, then they shouldn’t care what we say about their beliefs. Otherwise, if they or you make a fuss because we disrespect the Magic Pink Unicorn, I’m not impressed.

Comment #49: Sirkowski  on  07/24  at  09:39 PM

But I don’t see how the Christian message of salvation *simplicter* causes suffering.
MattD on 07/24 at 08:18 PM

well. it’s more along the line of “you owe me big time pal, now you better do as I said” sort of blackmail.

The proper retort would be, “and who ask you to die for my sin? mind your own business. Please get lost.”

Comment #50: Yuri  on  07/24  at  09:42 PM

The proper retort would be, “and who ask you to die for my sin? mind your own business. Please get lost.”

Or “you died for my sins, so I’d better get to committing them so your death won’t be in vain. Thanks, buddy.”

Comment #51: junk science  on  07/24  at  09:46 PM

Heaven is a feature of some religions - Christianity and Islam spring to mind - but not all. Some don’t believe in an afterlife, some see an afterlife as a burden, some have no opinion on exactly what happens next.

Yeah, Buddists are just as annoying as Christians. And so are Wiccans, the hipsters of the spiritual world.

Comment #52: Sirkowski  on  07/24  at  09:47 PM

Do atheist religions then count as “religion”?  I’m not trying to be obtuse or difficult here.  There’s still some supernatural element, no?

To my understanding, no. There is not a supernatural element. These types of Buddhism focus on ones own mind and soul, and transforming them.

They may be somewhat accepting of supernatural beliefs, but to my understanding, at least, that is not the focus at all.

Comment #53: atheist  on  07/24  at  09:48 PM

Do atheist religions then count as “religion”?  I’m not trying to be obtuse or difficult here.  There’s still some supernatural element, no?

It’s a reasonable question. From Dawkins’ POV, the answer is “yes.” He’s a scientist and empiricist first and foremost, and doesn’t have much patience for supernatural explanations of and attributions to natural phenomena. He tends to focus on the Abrahamic theistic religions (the title is, after all, “The God Delusion”) because he’s a Westerner addressing a Western audience. But I doubt he’d have anything nice to say about the mystical elements of “New Age” spiritualism or Wicca, either.

Comment #54: Gracchus  on  07/24  at  09:56 PM

If someone calls themselves a theist, and participates in something they call a religion, and believes in something they consider to be supernatural, I think the most respectful thing to do is to trust them and agree that they are, in fact, theists participating in a religion that involves itself with the supernatural.

Well, if you ask me, I’ll be happy to tell you that I’m a theist, and I participate in a religion, and believe in something I consider supernatural.

Of course, what I mean by “theist” is “atheist”, what I mean by “participate in a religion” is “have stopped participating in any religion”, and by “believe in the supernatural” I mean “don’t believe in the supernatural.” According to Dawkins, I’d be rightly considered an atheist and a player of wordgames (and I’d agree.) According to you, though, words have no meanings and you’re surprised not to find me in the pew next to you.

That’s the fundamental dishonesty that Dawkins is talking about. The “religion” that Dawkins is falsely accused of never addressing isn’t religion, it’s a word game - and the reason it appears so resistant to the arguments of atheists is because it is atheism.

That religion’s defenders can’t seem to defend religion and religious belief on its own terms, without dishonesty, is the single greatest proof that it’s all a delusion.

Comment #55: Chet  on  07/24  at  10:13 PM

If religion isn’t worthy of deep discussion, then why do these threads always go to 100+ comments of tl;dr posts?

Comment #56: foxdie  on  07/24  at  10:16 PM

Yeah. The problem is that talking about religion and atheism and reality inevitably gets you into metaphysical arguments. And those are pretty freaking slippery and deep.

Comment #57: atheist  on  07/24  at  10:28 PM

The problem is one of definitions. Atheism has a definition. It’s the lack of belief in a god(s). And “god” is something that has a common definition in our culture as well. It’s some sort of supernatural external intelligent deity.

So if you don’t believe in that (which, yes, is the hallmark of the monotheistic religions that are usually the focus of atheism), then you’re an atheist. Full stop. And yes, quite a few people who designate themselves as religious are actually atheist. They don’t believe in “God” in the conventional sense. In fact, I suspect relatively few people do.

But the reality is that nobody ever REALLY talks about their spiritual beliefs, so all this just kinda flies under the radar. It’s all hidden behind what really is mumbo-jumbo, metaphors and allegories.

Comment #58: Karmakin  on  07/24  at  10:40 PM

It’s all hidden behind what really is mumbo-jumbo, metaphors and allegories.

Right. People have probably been doubting the existence of gods since they were invented. Today, we have a big enough civilization that people are starting to demand the public recognition of what a lot of people have been thinking for millennia.

Comment #59: atheist  on  07/24  at  10:44 PM

I just finished Marion Lamb and Eva Jablonka’s “Evolution in Four Dimensions”.  Now, that was a work of biology with substantial philosophical elements in it.  Richard Dawkins is also mentioned in it for his ideas of memes…

Anywayz, as someone who has practiced some biology, I don’t think much of RD.  He’s a has-been who is something of a glory-hound, and unlike, say, Noam Chomsky, hasn’t really worked on the ouvre that made him famous in a long while.

Seriously, Nietzsche had a pretty strong grasp of why religions are bad, even if that was a tangential aspect of what he was really getting at.  He’s also quite readable, as are Sartre and Camus.  MattD’s suggestions aren’t actually that bad, if a bit esoteric—I would have suggested *earlier* guys, since many of them have considerably less dense writing than say, Spinoza.  Please don’t listen to Chet…he’s freakin’ psychotic in his reasoning, and I can’t make heads or tails of what he’s saying.

I don’t really waste my time reading a polemic.  One thing MattD is correct about is that Dawkins and Hitchens, and the like, fundementally don’t have a strong grasp of what athiesm actually *IS*.  Nietzsche would have torn Dawkins a new a-hole, and do it with style, and he has his…oddities.  Other philosphers with much to say on this topic would have other reactions that would have verged on “yet another lapsed Catholic”.  The Courtier’s Reply is irrelevant here, we’re not talking about whether someone has the correct qualifications, but whether someone apparently has the knowledge basis for us to take what he/she says seriously.

Comment #60: shah8  on  07/24  at  10:44 PM

Religion is certainly worthy of deep discussion.  For better or worse, it’s a large part of the story of humanity.

You could also have a deep discussion about World of Warcraft, but that doesn’t make Illidan the Betrayer real.

Comment #61: Jrod  on  07/24  at  10:48 PM

Thomas Jefferson:

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

I’m not really sure, in a multi-cultural, multi-religious society, what exactly is gained by holding people’s religious views up to ridicule. Attacking religious organizations’ rules or policies is one thing. But pointing telling people how stupid they are for their beliefs? Not sure how that helps democracy.

Comment #62: Blue Texan  on  07/24  at  10:52 PM

I for one welcome my new atheist overlords, provided they don’t start burning down churches or what have you. The only thing that can save religion from itself is if it becomes a minority practice by those who are really seeking, and not simply a form of social ceremony/philosophical shorthand for the problems of existence.

Of course, I’ve always had difficulty just shrugging off my existential angst, personally—a meaningless universe is a bleak thing to ponder on the darker nights of the soul.  Not so much fear of death (how can I fear an experience I cannot begin to comprehend?) makes me hold a small space for belief, but that desire for meaning beyond my tiny brief life.  Consciousness is a bitch, in other words, and religion is only one of the ways we smooth out those ragged edges. I am all for trying to find other ways to cope with such feelings using the bright light of rational atheism, but I am not sure it’s going to be quite as easy a task as the more blithe atheist thinkers make it out to be.

Comment #63: emjaybee  on  07/24  at  10:55 PM

Not sure how that helps democracy.

Wow, I thought we were just shootin’ the shit on a blog. Then all the sudden we became the Bearers and Upholders of Democracy. What happened?

Comment #64: atheist  on  07/24  at  11:01 PM

I think the problem philosophers have with Dawkins is that he essentially ignores them and takes on the real beliefs of the majority of theists. He takes on the daddy god that cares about us individually and listens to us and intercedes on our behalf because that is the god the majority in the west believe in. Religious people aren’t giving their money to prosperity preachers because they believe in some liberal “divine force” in the universe. They give and pray because they really think god will have favor on them if they do (obviously a lot of giving is because they are good people). Dawkins goes for the jugular to avoid the fancy word games played by theologians. His arguments, however, work equally well for any unverifiable supernatual belief.

Comment #65: Jim RL  on  07/24  at  11:02 PM

It’s also of no help to democracy when I point out what a horrible director Uwe Boll is, so I guess I shouldn’t do that?  Democracy is likewise not helped by fluffy new-born kittens; do you suppose we should put a stop to those too?

Comment #66: Jrod  on  07/24  at  11:04 PM

I can’t make heads or tails of what he’s saying.

That’s incomprehensible, because my point is really simple - “atheism” and “God” are real words with real definitions, and we can judge whether someone’s beliefs are atheism or not, once they’ve indulged us and explained them. Often, we find that people have made a mistake in terms of the words they’ve used to describe their religion. Sometimes, they’re deliberately lying because they think “atheist” is something only bad people can be.

Also, philosophy has been 100% bullshit ever since Science spun off it’s own series and Logic went over to mathematics. All that’s left is an intellectual dumpster for ideas that can’t withstand scrutiny.

Comment #67: Chet  on  07/24  at  11:04 PM

I for one welcome my new atheist overlords, provided they don’t start burning down churches or what have you.

You’re really in more danger from your co-religionists for that. It wasn’t atheists that dynamited the Bamyan Buddhas, remember?

Comment #68: Chet  on  07/24  at  11:07 PM

Oh, no arguments from me, Chet; I was postulating that I wouldn’t mind a society that was largely atheist, provided it didn’t involve persecution of or violence against non-atheists. The sordid history of inter-religious violence isn’t in dispute; of course, I dont expect atheists to be inherently more virtuous, given power, than theists. Thus my caveat. It’s not hard to imagine an atheist faction that would, in fact, dynamite the Bamyan Buddhas, because all human beings are capable of being assholes, regardless of their particular worldviews.

Comment #69: emjaybee  on  07/24  at  11:20 PM

Chet, you can only say that because you don’t know shit about philosophy, nor, apparently, are you aware of just how much philosophy and philosophical thinking are still deeply involved in all sorts of fields.  Godel was a philospher who made quite profound statements about mathematics and about relativity.  The final tests for the validity of quantum mechanics were posed by Einstein, Bell, and Rosen as a philosophical argement.  And oh, my god, closer to *my* home, philosophy is deeply, *deeply* entrenched in neurology and psychology to the point that there is arguably more philosophy than actual science on everything that isn’t quite explicitly cell biology of neurons.  This is because constructing the experiment, when it’s about more than one neuron, has intrinsic philosophical background, due to complexity and gestalt issues.  That feeds back into asking what the nature of the property being experimented on is, and what question can and should be asked.

Look, just check out some of the debate transcripts that Richard Dawkins has had with theists.  He practically got PWNED by some irish reporter in one that I’ve found.  As I’ve tried to say before, Dawkins, Hitchens, and others are writing books in which they apparently know little of the athiest tradition.  The church guys have seen *real* fire-breathing athiests before, and *they* have read their works.  When a puny reporter can trip up Dawkins on something as stupid as—If there’s no God, we don’t have free will—, he just ain’t ready for prime time.

Comment #70: shah8  on  07/24  at  11:33 PM

I am particularly taken by the part about existential crises, because it gets you right to the crux of the Noble Lie problem, namely that the Noble Lie is effectively indistinguishable from any number of Ignoble Lies. And in fact it’s generally a tenet of any given system of lies that all the other lies isomorphic to it are Ignoble.

Comment #71: paul  on  07/24  at  11:42 PM

Chet, you can only say that because you don’t know shit about philosophy, nor, apparently, are you aware of just how much philosophy and philosophical thinking are still deeply involved in all sorts of fields.

I’m very aware how much philosophers like to pretend this is true, but I suggest you stop talking to philosophers and start talking to scientists, and you’ll see how completely irrelevant “philosophy of science” is to the actual work of science. None of the students in my biology graduate lab had even heard of Karl Popper. When I explained Kant’s “Inductive Fallacy” to my wife, an entomologist, she was certain I was making a bad joke.

And then she got angry. And you know what? I did, too. What Kant and the rest of your know-nothing crowd are trying to accomplish is no less than the complete undermining of our confidence in our knowledge.

The final tests for the validity of quantum mechanics were posed by Einstein, Bell, and Rosen as a philosophical argement.

The final tests of both relativity and quantum mechanics, like in all science, were experimentation and observation. Philosophy had nothing to do with those fields. How could it? Philosophy has no rigor; there’s no way to distinguish right philosophy from wrong philosophy. There’s just how many books you can sell and how many papers you can write. Like theology, and like economics, the philosophical arguments you’re going to be convinced by are the ones that are consistent with whatever ideology you already hold, as opposed to the ones that are most consistent with evidence.

philosophy is deeply, *deeply* entrenched in neurology and psychology to the point that there is arguably more philosophy than actual science on everything that isn’t quite explicitly cell biology of neurons.

Right, the introduction of philosophy into psychology is why that field has stagnated and been almost completely eclipsed by neurobiology. You’re making my point for me.

When a puny reporter can trip up Dawkins on something as stupid as—If there’s no God, we don’t have free will—, he just ain’t ready for prime time.

I’d be nice if you could prove this actually happened. But I guess we’re just supposed to take the word of the philosopher.

Comment #72: Chet  on  07/24  at  11:54 PM

Also, philosophy has been 100% bullshit ever since Science spun off it’s own series and Logic went over to mathematics. All that’s left is an intellectual dumpster for ideas that can’t withstand scrutiny.

Not really true.

Comment #73: atheist  on  07/25  at  12:37 AM

Read this dude, Chet. He’s a big ‘ol atheist, and also a philosphy buff, and he has actual points that have to do with philosophy and logic and science… there is not always a hard and fast distinction.

Comment #74: atheist  on  07/25  at  12:39 AM

Good one, Paul, about the lies.

Comment #75: atheist  on  07/25  at  12:40 AM

If someone calls themselves a theist, and participates in something they call a religion, and believes in something they consider to be supernatural, I think the most respectful thing to do is to trust them and agree that they are, in fact, theists participating in a religion that involves itself with the supernatural.  The same way that it’s disrespectful when theists decide that atheism and/or science is just another form of religious belief.
The Opoponax on 07/24 at 07:54 PM

Keep your religion to yourself. do not try to even persuade others that your reality need to be manifested in any form of law or social behavior.

Once you are waving religion as moral ground to advance ANY form of law and regulation over other people. You better be able to JUSTIFY why anybody should believe your purple unicorn is a good moral ground.

That is to say, you don’t have a case why you should insist appeasing bunch of religious wackos in public should be the norm. (plus, really, is not like you yourself can even spell out if there is or is not god, or what religion you are practicing at the moment.)

If you don’t accept logical argument, don’t you need to at least advance some sort of credible religious/believe argument?

I am looking forward to do bible thumping brawl with you.

Comment #76: That wacko again  on  07/25  at  12:49 AM

I have to come down on the side of those who are saying that philosophers don’t like Dawkins’ book becausehe refuses to pretend that they are relevant to the discussion. And let’s face it, they aren’t. Irrespective of whether or not Dawkins is dealing with a philosophical question (I don’t think he really is), modern philosophy, meaning pretty much everything in the last 150 years or so, but especially the last 50, has essentially no relationship to how your average person grapples with the existential problems in their lives. Your typical theist’s ideas about God have NO philosophical depth at all. Why waste time with it? Dawkins deals with a very simple question: is there such a thing as God, or gods? This question is answered satisfactorily with no need to give lip service to the “complicated” philosophical discussions that have taken place on the matter, because they are simply irrelevant, both to your typical theist and atheist and with respect to the actual fact of the matter. See above, re. the Courtier’s Reply. Now, when it comes to the purpose of religion and the reasons that people believe what they do, the philosophers can come out to play, but good luck to them when it comes to catching anyone’s interest.

I’m not saying any of this because I’m hostile to philosophy. In fact, I rather like it. If nothing else, it’s a productive exercise of our capacity for intellectual and moral reasoning, at least if done well. But I think that it’s fair to ask whether philosophy is ultimately any use for obtaining truths about the universe. I’m not just making this up - this question has been asked by at least one philosopher that I know. It’s a perfectly legitimate question, and frankly, there’s no reason to believe that philosophy has any rigorous utility! Throughout history we’ve seen philosophy swept aside as we acquired the tools and knowledge to test our theories scientifically. There’s no reason to imagine that this will stop. Even fields of study thought to be the exclusive domain of philosophy, like normative ethics, are open to question (my pet hypothesis is that morality is like language: we all have the same mental equipment, but acquire different moral “languages” depending upon the cultural context in which we are raised). These ideas could well be testable, one day. None of this is to say the philosophy is a poor use of time, but in this case and in many others, it is simply irrelevant. If that leaves philosophers feeling petulant, well, boo-hoo.

Tangentially, I am not as hostile as Chet is to philosophy by a long shot, but I do agree with him on this: the fact that psychology relies so heavily upon philosophy in the formulation of theories of behavior is a major weakness of the field. Psychology has been incredibly useful for describing human and animal behavior and showing how predictable it can be under the right circumstances, but when it comes to theories about WHY we behave the way we do and what forces are behind the evolution of human psychology, it sucks big time. I was appalled, when I took my intro psychology course some years ago, to see untestable conjectures - “hypothesis” seems too kind a word being presented as legitimate, competing theories for the development of human psychology. Turned me off in a big way. I’m a biologist now; go figure.

Comment #77: grolby  on  07/25  at  12:51 AM

I’m actually jealous of people with religous rituals at funerals, especially at showings. They have something to do with their hands, instead of numbly looking down at the shell of a loved one. Sometimes they look like they’re trying to catch a moth with chopsticks, but they have a something to do which at such times I can understand the need for that.

Comment #78: dooflow  on  07/25  at  12:53 AM

I’m not actually saying that just Yahweh is not real.  I also don’t believe in Zeus, any Hindu gods, or pagan goddesses.

Let’s face it:  all gods are far, far more alike than different.  “But MY god sent his son to Earth!”  “But MY god has 12 arms!”  etc.  etc.  None of them are special.  It’s like a gorilla and a chimpanzee arguing over which is hairier. 

There is no need to defend denying them all.  They are all invisible people living in the clouds; the rest is commentary.

Comment #79: Notorious P.A.T.  on  07/25  at  12:54 AM

yeah, Chet, I’m gonna go ahead and tell you to shut the fuck up. You’re doing that same goddamn thing that all hard science douchebags do, which is pretend that ONLY TEH HARD SYINCE MATTAR NOFIN ELSE IS REEL NOWLIG.

As a historian from a long line of linguists and political scientists, shut the fuck up. Science is meaningless without the humanities. Science isn’t what you do in a lab. It’s the process by which knowledge is gained, examined, and reexamined. Physics is neat and fun, but it’s merely cognitive. Metacognition, the sciences where we study how we know what we know, is the only way those results bear meaning, and even THAT needs to be pondered upon.

There is no finality of knowledge. Until you can give a non-circular definition of the number 7 (I’ve seen ‘em. go on for pages, they do.), you need the metasciences.

There is no science without Epistemology. There is no Epistemology without Philosophy.

Nevermind how fucking arrogant and fucktacular “I haven’t heard of it, so it isn’t important” is.

seriously, piss up a rope, you stupendous dogfucker.

Comment #80: karpad  on  07/25  at  12:54 AM

“What Kant and the rest of your know-nothing crowd are trying to accomplish is no less than the complete undermining of our confidence in our knowledge.” Ummm….why is this a bad thing?

Comment #81: dooflow  on  07/25  at  12:56 AM

As a historian from a long line of linguists and political scientists, shut the fuck up. Science is meaningless without the humanities. Science isn’t what you do in a lab. It’s the process by which knowledge is gained, examined, and reexamined. Physics is neat and fun, but it’s merely cognitive. Metacognition, the sciences where we study how we know what we know, is the only way those results bear meaning, and even THAT needs to be pondered upon.
karpad on 07/24 at 11:54 PM

you are not one of those postmodernist wacko who believes gravity is merely cognitive mambo jambo are ya? Not that I am in the mood to discuss epistemology and nature of reality right now.

Comment #82: Yuri  on  07/25  at  01:01 AM

No, I rather like gravity and the sciences.

But without the context provided by sentience, any physical facts are trivia. The origin of the universe doesn’t matter in a universe devoid of thought.

I don’t ask for much. Merely an acknowledgment and respect of the fact that TEH HARD SCYINS is not all inclusive for the sum of human knowledge.

Comment #83: karpad  on  07/25  at  01:06 AM

Religion doesn’t make anyone violent or oppressive

Really?  When someone straps an innocent person to a rack and demands they recant their religious beliefs, religion has nothing to do with it? 

Tell me this:  is there any non-religious justification—any whatsoever—for not granting civil rights to homosexual people?

Comment #84: Notorious P.A.T.  on  07/25  at  01:08 AM

yeah, Chet, I’m gonna go ahead and tell you to shut the fuck up. You’re doing that same goddamn thing that all hard science douchebags do, which is pretend that ONLY TEH HARD SYINCE MATTAR NOFIN ELSE IS REEL NOWLIG.

As a historian from a long line of linguists and political scientists, shut the fuck up. Science is meaningless without the humanities. Science isn’t what you do in a lab. It’s the process by which knowledge is gained, examined, and reexamined. Physics is neat and fun, but it’s merely cognitive. Metacognition, the sciences where we study how we know what we know, is the only way those results bear meaning, and even THAT needs to be pondered upon.

There is no finality of knowledge. Until you can give a non-circular definition of the number 7 (I’ve seen ‘em. go on for pages, they do.), you need the metasciences.

There is no science without Epistemology. There is no Epistemology without Philosophy.

Nevermind how fucking arrogant and fucktacular “I haven’t heard of it, so it isn’t important” is.

seriously, piss up a rope, you stupendous dogfucker.

10/10

Comment #85: foxdie  on  07/25  at  01:09 AM

There is no science without Epistemology. There is no Epistemology without Philosophy.

Woody Allen has your epistemology right here, pal. “Is knowledge knowable, and if not, how do we know this?”

Lucky for science, epistemology is somebody else’s problem, as science is too busy producing results rather than being as otiose as philosophy, which is fine for those who don’t wish to be constrained by evidence and observation, while leaching as much credit as possible from the fruits of science. Science is continually subject to revision, and isn’t at all about what we know, but about what we can do with the way things appear to be so far as we can tell, and which questions lead to better questions. The best anybody can hope to do is to grasp, to the best of our human capacity, the current provisional consensus, and if possible, contribute something new to it, hoping to either confirm the consensus or demolish it. Some philosophers of science work to make sense of what science has done or might do, but it is far less a foundation of science these days than a byproduct.

Comment #86: Ken Cope  on  07/25  at  01:11 AM

As a historian from a long line of linguists and political scientists, shut the fuck up.

You’ve got nothing to fear from me, Karpad. History, linguistics, and political science are all completely legitimate fields of endeavor - because those fields have rigor, ways to reject false conclusions.

I find the “hard/soft science” dichotomy largely facile, anyway. That’s not even remotely what I’m talking about.

Comment #87: Chet  on  07/25  at  01:14 AM

If religion isn’t worthy of deep discussion, then why do these threads always go to 100+ comments of tl;dr posts?</i<

Because <i>the hatred of religion is totally worth some deep discussion, along with a good dollop of self-satisfaction on the parts of anti-theists who claim that mocking people’s beliefs and casting religious individuals as deluded victims (or as opportunistic liars) is in no way tantamount to harming human beings.

Observe:

I half expected the book to be a hateful screed against religious people, since it was treated that way by critics, but as usual when it comes to these things, religion is being sheltered from criticism by conflating criticism of it, or even mockery, as if it’s as bad or worse than hurting actual human beings.

Never try to argue with someone who knows she’s right, Foxdie.

Comment #88: The Devil's Advocate  on  07/25  at  01:16 AM

Is there a defense of religion or philosophy that doesn’t involve calling me a dogfucker?

Comment #89: Chet  on  07/25  at  01:22 AM

But without the context provided by sentience, any physical facts are trivia. The origin of the universe doesn’t matter in a universe devoid of thought.
karpad on 07/25 at 12:06 AM

and I suppose, machine observation is not a valid “physical trivia” then? Tell me, what exactly is sentience?

ah yes… the mumbo jumbo now all come out.  (that if machine observe 1+1=2 it’s merely trivia, but if shakespeare wrote a long poem about 1+1=2 it’ll be true knowledge. )

Comment #90: Yuri  on  07/25  at  01:23 AM

But without the context provided by sentience, any physical facts are trivia. The origin of the universe doesn’t matter in a universe devoid of thought.
karpad on 07/25 at 12:06 AM

and I suppose, observation made by machine is not a valid “physical trivia” then? Tell me, what exactly is sentience? ah yes… the mumbo jumbo now all come out.  (that if machine observes 1+1=2 it’s merely trivia, but if shakespeare wrote a long poem about 1+1=2 it’ll be true knowledge. )

Comment #91: Yuri  on  07/25  at  01:26 AM

The Devil’s Advocate

Yes, calling someone a deluded victim or an opportunistic liar is not equal to harming a human being.  In order to illustrate my point I would like to reference the SCOTUS decision of Sticks v. Stones v. Words in which the court ruled 9-0 that sticks and stones may break your bones but words will never harm you. 

Because if words actually did harm people you wouldn’t be so supportive of the Westboro Baptist Church.  Who daily proclaim that X is rotting in hell because of Y.  Which would mean that they are harming people every day with their mean to the 10th power words.

Comment #92: commissarjs  on  07/25  at  01:33 AM

You know, I’m an artist who sometimes works in the academic world and I’m not very interested in the hard sciences. Here and there something will strike me as useful but that’s it. What’s interesting to me is the hard science guys keep harping on credit. I don’t get it? What credit? You discovered something verifiable, so fucking what…write a sentence even similar to William Gaddis or Clarice Lispector and I’ll be impressed. That’s where life is, ja? That’s discovery. For me, at least. So what is all this credit that’s supposed to be given? For what? If you need the credit for the discovery keep it to your fucking self. Why are you sharing it?  For the credit? & Chet we know you don’t fuck dogs, you make love to them.

Comment #93: dooflow  on  07/25  at  01:37 AM

I’m not really sure, in a multi-cultural, multi-religious society, what exactly is gained by holding people’s religious views up to ridicule. Attacking religious organizations’ rules or policies is one thing. But pointing telling people how stupid they are for their beliefs? Not sure how that helps democracy.

Sam Harris, an apologist for torture but otherwise a clever fellow, has attempted to answer this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOIImOoYM

Comment #94: Grammar RWA  on  07/25  at  01:42 AM

By Odin’s bristly beard!  I just got slapped upside the head by Poe’s Law didn’t I?  Damn it…

Comment #95: commissarjs  on  07/25  at  01:42 AM

Is there a defense of religion or philosophy that doesn’t involve calling me a dogfucker?

Yes, if we want to play with logic. But logic isn’t nearly as fun as rhetoric. Rhetoric is not only more effective (as you’ve demonstrated you know, at least instinctively) but certainly more of an art. The two go hand in hand, really. Being right isn’t worth much if you can’t convince others of it. The presentation of fact in such a manner is what separates the merely smart from the brilliant.

observation made by machine is not a valid “physical trivia” then? Tell me, what exactly is sentience? ah yes… the mumbo jumbo now all come out.  (that if machine observes 1+1=2 it’s merely trivia, but if shakespeare wrote a long poem about 1+1=2 it’ll be true knowledge. )

in order, Yes, machines do not observe. They record. Anything they generate is trivia until analyzed by sentience. Until sentience (that is, self awareness and the ability to comprehend information, not simply record) views the end results, it’s trivia.

A machine can RECORD data, they’re fantastic for that. But until you have a scientist view the data analyze it and use it to reach a conclusion, it has no more meaning than the number of left handed people born on August 2.

I’m sorry you’re so insulted that the “mumbo jumbo” doesn’t think machines are people too. because, you know, they aren’t. They’re tools, made by people to make our lives easier. Scientists use machines, that doesn’t mean machines are scientists.

Comment #96: karpad  on  07/25  at  01:45 AM

karpad, a question: do ponderings of how we know what we know actually give us useful, descriptive answers about how our observed universe appears to function? Science is nothing if not practical - we deal with what we can see. Epistemological skepticism and other ponderings about our knowledge of knowledge (oy), while interesting, are entirely unproductive at returning answers about the world we perceive. Where the scientific method arose from isn’t really relevant or remotely important to what scientists actually do. Since the moment it was invented, science has been more than capable of standing on its own. We keep using the scientific method because it works. It’s place in more esoteric, less, y’know, testable questions about the nature of knowledge and our perception of the universe has long since ceased to be meaningful to the people doing it. Physics is not “merely cognitive,” it has given us a lot more solid, meaningful information about the universe than metacognition ever could. It can hardly help doing so, since it cuts to the chase and asks testable questions about observable reality.

ARGH, listen, no one is trying to say that the humanities aren’t useful. Of course they are! But it is really irritating  to hear people in the humanities undeservedly grabbing credit for scientific discoveries - as if science would somehow cease to work if the metacognition people were to all pack up their bags and go home. It’s kind of like biological parents of an adopted child taking all the credit for that child’s academic achievements and appending the kid’s credentials to their own names. We are grateful for having gotten started, but work in the humanities has no bearing whatsoever upon whether science will continue to return useful information or not. Please stop trying to pretend like it does.

Comment #97: grolby  on  07/25  at  01:45 AM

I *do* actually talk to scientists.  I’m not actually far from *being* one.  Next, you show your lack of knowledge by ascribing “inductive fallacy” to Kant.  That threw me for a loop until I googled enough to realize that you were probably talking about transcendent idealism.  Well, I don’t know about anyone else, but me, personally, I would not be trying for some brief explanation of a theory of epistemology that was soooo…in the flow, I might say, and one that Kant himself was uncomfortable with.  However, I *would* like to point out that you do, actually, engage in inductive fallacies when you talk shit about all the philosophers.

Karl Popper’s cool, and should be known more, but that does not mean some of your students couldn’t come up with a little Mill, or Nietzsche, or Hume, or perhaps Lao Tzu.  Now, *Jean Piaget*, who is lumped in with Popper, oh my god, but he is one of the guys I have a definite intent to actually read!  He’s fucking critical to the modern understanding of neuroscience.

I mentioned the quantum mechanics thing because the *design of the experiment* was almost completely philosophical, much as Maxwell’s Demon was a philosophical construct in understanding thermodynamics.  However, it was actually possible to make an experiment in real life to check out that whole spooky communications thing.

About right and wrong philosophy?  Ugh, where do I start but by saying that just about the only thing that matters in philosophy is internal consistency.  Not right, nor wrong, or any connection to reality.  While you might say then, that it’s useless, well, no, it isn’t useless.  Philosophy made the basis of science as we understood it.  Philosophy alters art and commerce as it gains and lose popularity.  It is a rather massively useful discipline.

I don’t think you understand enough of anything for me to judge whether to take your “psychology is stagnant” phrase seriously.  Introduction of philosophy caused it to happen?  Say what?  When?

As for the debate?

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0086.htm

PZ Myer’s take
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/10/dawkins_vs_quinn.php#more

Some christian takes…
http://www.apologetik.dk/?p=322
http://woodpigeon01.wordpress.com/2006/10/10/richard-dawkins-gets-a-hard-time/

Another rationalist take
http://www.darkbright.org/?p=11

I agree with the latter links, mostly in the sense that Dawkins, if he knew what he was about, could have easily smacked Quinn around the ring, but instead had to play defense…

links, just so one doesn’t have to take a philosopher’s word on it.

Comment #98: shah8  on  07/25  at  01:46 AM

hat’s interesting to me is the hard science guys keep harping on credit. I don’t get it? What credit? You discovered something verifiable, so fucking what…write a sentence even similar to William Gaddis or Clarice Lispector and I’ll be impressed. That’s where life is, ja? That’s discovery. For me, at least.

Okay then. You may turn in your computer, typewriter, ballpoint pen, car, glasses or contact lenses, any medication you may be taking, your phone, your Cuisinart, your wristwatch and your car. After all, these are all the results of verifiable discoveries, so fucking what?

Comment #99: grolby  on  07/25  at  01:51 AM

karpad, you really have no reason to talk other than to be vile and hateful, so kindly shut up while the adults are talking.

foxdie, you realize 4chan is back now, right?

Comment #100: Damian  on  07/25  at  01:53 AM

Chet’s just a dull, shallow village atheist. As is Dawkins, albeit one with a portfolio.

you’ll see how completely irrelevant “philosophy of science” is to the actual work of science.

Also, coaching and training and scouting and sports nutrition is irrelevant to the actual performance of athletes.

He openly praises philosophy as a far better source of moral reasoning and dealing with the existential questions than religion could ever be.

That doesn’t count for much, because he’s as ignorant of philosophy as he is of theology. He just thinks one smells better from a distance. Once again, I’ll nod in the direction of Jonathan Miller’s ‘Atheism Tapes’, which includes Dawkins and is far from shallow.

Comment #101: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/25  at  01:54 AM

My issue isn’t with their existence-it’s the whole credit thing. Who gets credit for what and when. That’s what I don’t care about, and I don’t understand why anyone does.

Comment #102: dooflow  on  07/25  at  01:54 AM

“I’m not really sure, in a multi-cultural, multi-religious society, what exactly is gained by holding people’s religious views up to ridicule.”

Ridiculous things deserve ridicule.  We are all diminished by those who cling to superstititions and absurdities.

Comment #103: Courtney  on  07/25  at  02:01 AM

By Odin’s bristly beard!  I just got slapped upside the head by Poe’s Law didn’t I?  Damn it…

No, although you wouldn’t be the first to think so. “The Devil’s Advocate” is for real.

And apparently so far gone these days that you “respect” the WBC, and “thank God” for them, TDA? Really? Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome, old buddy. Does my memory fail me, or wasn’t there a time when you just focused on that noble stance of defending the right of unpopular free speech? And now you’ve crossed over to pissing on everything good and decent in the world. Way to dilute the message.

Comment #104: Grammar RWA  on  07/25  at  02:01 AM

The question of whether or not something exists is a scientific, not a philosophical, question.

Sorry, Chet, that’s just a property claim. You’ll have to do better than merely asserting ownership.

Comment #105: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/25  at  02:01 AM

Grolby, the simple answer to your particular attitude is that the relevant philosophy is embedded within the particular scientific culture, whether that be physics, math, biology, or sociology.  Just because you don’t have out that big book on de Charin out there in the open, doesn’t mean that you aren’t indirectly inbibing (or specifically rejecting) many of his ideas when it came to topics such as paleontology, evolution, or geology.  Same with mathematical proofs ranging all the way into pedogogic studies.

Foucalt and Derrida, despite having just a bit more influence on the sciences than one might think, are not the whole of what philosophy IS.  Scientists are, by nature, part time philosophers, especially in fields that are highly resistant to reductionism.

Comment #106: shah8  on  07/25  at  02:06 AM

dooflow, the issue would be claims like that of pseudonymous, above, where he suggests that philosophy of science is as essential to the results of scientific endeavor as training and nutrition are to athletic performance. It’s absurdly false. We need no feedback from philosophers on how to conduct our research. There are no innovations in how we do science coming from these people, no fine tuning of the method. A good thing, too - that would not be a good sign for previous discoveries. But the scientific method WORKS, so we keep plugging away at our research and getting results. Philosophers have not brought anything new to our table in centuries, though we have brought much to theirs. And then they have the pretension to claim that their work is essential to what we do! No, the work of many philosophers and naturalists long dead was essential to what we do. Philosophy is great, but we don’t need it to keep getting answers.

I wonder if people like pseudonymous (like many undergraduate philosophy students I have known, sadly) have a deep-seated wish to feel smarter than the scientists who keep on going and getting actual answers about the universe, possibly because they think that their field of study is more “pure,” that is, more divorced from reality than is science.

Comment #107: grolby  on  07/25  at  02:07 AM

My issue isn’t with their existence-it’s the whole credit thing. Who gets credit for what and when. That’s what I don’t care about, and I don’t understand why anyone does.

Ah. Well, that’s easy to explain. If lecturers of subject X can’t convince universities to pay them, then they’ve got to find other jobs. A couple centuries ago, there was little or doubt that philosophy had utility and deserved monetary compensation. These days, much of the “territory” of philosophy has been claimed by scientists, and there is growing doubt about the utility of philosophy. Universities have finite funds for the various academic disciplines to compete over, and plenty of careers are always one budget cut away from elimination. When philosophers are trying to claim credit for something that scientists also claim, they must do battle.

Comment #108: Grammar RWA  on  07/25  at  02:11 AM

oh no, I have much other than being vile and hateful. I have a very simple point, which the handful of Materialists here are woe to recognize. Chet actually made some reasonable concessions, so he gets a tongue in cheek reply to his inquiry if there’s a defense of philosophy that doesn’t involve calling him a dogfucker rather than more bile which he had inarguably earned by dismissing philosophy as a significant field of study. then Yuri went ahead and asked a stupid question, dismissing the response ahead of time as mumbo jumbo. So I went ahead and answered concisely.

no, if I were being hateful, you’d know. I’m a secular humanist materialist who utterly dismisses all “paranormal” of any sort, and simply returned some mild deserved rancor at someone for trying to group legitimate fields of study with ballyhoo. Philsophy is legitimate study, just as Quantum Mechanics is legitimate. Just because you personally don’t follow it, understand, or lend credence to it doesn’t make it illegitimate. Let’s not pretend there weren’t plenty in the community who dismissed virtually every new field of study as it arose.

like right now, I’m considering turning on the 2 minute hate at dooflow, what for quoting Wanted. up there.

Comment #109: karpad  on  07/25  at  02:11 AM

not much of a 4chan fan, damien.

0/10 for you, my friend.

Comment #110: foxdie  on  07/25  at  02:16 AM

no, if I were being hateful, you’d know.

I already do.  You acted like a child throwing a fucking tantrum.

Comment #111: Damian  on  07/25  at  02:21 AM

foxdie, I didn’t fall off the turnip truck yesterday. Shut your troll-hole.

Comment #112: Damian  on  07/25  at  02:22 AM

You know, grolby…

Technically, Darwin’s initial breakthrough was one of philosophy.  A new, internally consistent way of seeing things.  That philosophy turned out to be useful in designing empirical studies of how life changes.  Then his theories needed to be rigorous in order to survive the attack of varous groups from the early Lamarkians, theists, and later on, lysenkoists.  Philosophy was interwoven all the way through the history of the idea that things exists because they changed to a comfortable existence.

You’ll find this in just about all histories of science to some extent.

Comment #113: shah8  on  07/25  at  02:31 AM

Huh. I’ve heard of “greedy reductionism” before. Now we have greedy philosophy?

Technically, Darwin’s initial breakthrough was one of philosophy.  A new, internally consistent way of seeing things.

Every “internally consistent way of seeing things” is now, technically, philosophy. Hrm. Well, technically, I don’t disagree, but it sure sounds like you’re implying “Darwin was doing philosophy, not science.”

Comment #114: Grammar RWA  on  07/25  at  02:39 AM

We need no feedback from philosophers on how to conduct our research.

I was expecting that response.

You conduct research in tiny, demarcated fields, and write small, incremental papers to be published in small, micro-disciplinary journals. You certainly don’t need the wider perspective to keep doing what you’re doing, but that’s because what you’re doing is closer to the factory production line than any mythical portrayal of scientific discovery. I don’t fault that in the slightest: it takes dedication and concentration and exactitude to be a germ-grower or a rat-poker or a crystal-grower or an anode-tweaker or a rock-picker. It’s not quite as sexy as it was when Boyle and Wilkins and Hooke gathered in candle-lit rooms for meetings that helped transform ‘natural philosophy’ into modern science, setting out the manner and mode in which it would be conducted. But, frankly, this was a dull fight when CP Snow had it, and it’s a duller fight now.

(And the ‘undergraduate’ sideswipe? Oh, please.)

Comment #115: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/25  at  02:40 AM

So, internal consistency without any of that pesky observation and empiricism is philosophy, then.

“What’s a philosopher ?” said Brutha. “Someone who’s bright enough to find a job with no heavy lifting,” said a voice in his head.

  —(Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)

Comment #116: Ken Cope  on  07/25  at  02:47 AM

But, frankly, this was a dull fight when CP Snow had it, and it’s a duller fight now.

So, I take it Brockman‘s your publisher, then?

Comment #117: Ken Cope  on  07/25  at  02:50 AM

@damien

No, I think I’ll keep it open, tyvm.

*hugs*

Comment #118: foxdie  on  07/25  at  03:42 AM

Shah8,

Chet has argued with me at length about how Marxist derived ideologies and regimes were actually theistic religions in and of themselves by mistaking bombastic propagandistic displays, the totalitarian use of real state power, and even conflating the genuine fear of bugged radios/electronics equipment with superstitious belief of radios being able to supernaturally listen in are all due to some supernatural magic of “religious communism”. 

In so doing, he reveals deep ignorance of Marxist derived ideologies and how they were actually practiced by the state and perceived by most of the people living under them.  Some of my Eastern European neighbors had an especially good laugh over the last point about the supernatural radios…

I’ve talked with my dad about this. Dad believes that the government ought to lie to the public because the public is just too childish to handle truths. The wierd thing is, Dad seems rather prone to believing some pretty absurd things himself. So, does he think, please lie to those idiots out in the public for their own good? Or please lie to me for my own good?

Though I think your dad is being a bit too harsh in considering the public to be childish…..I do take a similar cynical view that human beings are naturally inclined towards ignorance, cruelty, and being downright murderous….though I disagree with his idea that we need to use lies or by implication variants of the “wise” “philosophy king” ideas to rule hierarchically over the “sheep”. 

If anything, having a hierarchical ruling elite purporting themselves to be the “wise rulers” only magnifies those negative effects whereas having more transparency of information and egalitarian democratic structures can work to minimize those negative effects by allowing more individuals with different strengths and weaknesses to create an optimal environment for the checking and thus…minimizing the effects of each other’s individual weaknesses and negative points at the very least.

Comment #119: exholt  on  07/25  at  03:47 AM

The people defending philosophy here are largely doing so be re-defining it, defining it as everything, or refusing to define it at all.

Yes, every person can use some philisophical thought in their lives, but that has nothing to do with philosophy as an academic discipline or profession. A rejection of philosophy as mostly useless is not a rejection of the humanities.

I’d like to see someone list some important philosophers of the last 50 years along with what of importance they actually accomplished.

Comment #120: Margalis  on  07/25  at  04:04 AM

Oh, I thought John Hodgman was a (deserved) parody of Brockman when his first pieces appeared at McSweeneys, and remain surprised that John Hodgman actually exists. And slightly annoyed that Brockman exists.

I’m not a scientist. I have a doctorate that deals in part with the history of a particular branch of science. While I wrote my doctoral thesis, I lived with graduate scientists, and I’ve had the cross-disciplinary ‘what do you actually do?’ conversation several times. I have seen (more than once) the Dawkins Live! Atheism! Show. I have taken inspiration from a funeral where the readings came from Lucretius. (Amanda’s Mark Twain quotation is Lucretius distilled for his generation.) I have read The God Delusion: it’s a shallow book. (And PZM’s ‘Courtier’s Reply’ is the equivalent of locking oneself in a wardrobe and saying that you’re unqualified to judge how the wardrobe looks from the inside right now.)

Superstition and the desire to believe in supernatural crap can be counted among the things that exist. And empiricism is pesky, in certain contexts, and has been acknowledged as such right through the history of scientific discovery.

Comment #121: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/25  at  04:18 AM

I’ll also say that disproving the existence of God is by definition impossible, and assessing the likelyhood of the existence of God is likewise impossible. Arguments related to the probability of God existing are silly pseudo-science.

It makes a lot more sense to point out that there is zero evidence that God exists. Or exactly as much evidence as there that the universe is ruled by a magical unicorn.

Comment #122: Margalis  on  07/25  at  04:19 AM

That mutating bacteria from a couple weeks ago gives MORE evidence against than for the existence of a creator.

And no, Buddhism isn’t a religion. Buddhist “gods” are representations of aspects of the self. It’s literal like that. Siddhartha specifically forbade images of himself for that reason. Buddha idols didn’t exist for the first 300 years or so. I also think it’s really cool that Genghis Khan was responsible for preserving Buddhism when it lost favor in India. What with him being a murdering savage and all.

Comment #123: banisteriopsis  on  07/25  at  05:19 AM

On the other hand, I know a spot in my home town where your car rolls uphill. I don’t know why. It’s just some guy’s driveway, but you really do roll uphill. Life is weird.

Comment #124: banisteriopsis  on  07/25  at  05:26 AM

On the other hand, I know a spot in my home town where your car rolls uphill. I don’t know why. It’s just some guy’s driveway, but you really do roll uphill.

It’s a relatively common optical illusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_hill

Comment #125: Grammar RWA  on  07/25  at  05:48 AM

Can someone enlighten me on why the history of atheism as a movement is relevant to the question of the existence of god(s)?  Because it just looks like a backwards version of the Coutier’s Reply from over here:  “he can’t really say what atheism is because he doesn’t know what the atheism movement was all about 100 years ago”.

Comment #126: KL  on  07/25  at  07:27 AM

I’m not really sure, in a multi-cultural, multi-religious society, what exactly is gained by holding people’s religious views up to ridicule. Attacking religious organizations’ rules or policies is one thing. But pointing telling people how stupid they are for their beliefs? Not sure how that helps democracy.

What you call “ridicule” others would call harsh criticism. And it’s a legitimate reaction when my neighbour does indeed attempt, over and over again, to “pick my pocket” by trying to undermine the Establishment Clause (of which Jefferson was a fan) or threaten to “break the legs” of (or unleash violent fatwa upon) those who question the shaky basis of a belief (of which Jefferson did his share).

The God Delusion was written in large part in reaction to the resurgent attempts over the last 25 years to mix church and state in those multi-cultural and multi-religious Western countries. So it’s hard to fault Dawkins for getting a bit angry when he sees Xtian fantasists trying to push creationism into public school science curricula, or when he sees Muslim fantasists trying to give Sharia law equal standing with the secular law of the state.

Some atheists prefer to defend the ramparts of Enlightment thought, but Dawkins obviously is more inclined to set out on raids aimed at reducing the number of fantasists out there and (with more success) building morale amongst those who’ve already abandoned superstition. So ridicule/critical analysis does tend to serve democracy (or at least the Constitution).

Keep your religion to yourself. do not try to even persuade others that your reality need to be manifested in any form of law or social behavior.

One of Dawkins’ arguments is that religion, by its very nature a meme complex, can do nothing but attempt to gain new converts by spreading the contagion. He’s just trying to thwart the epidemic by innoculating readers with science (or handing out booster shots).

And I’m amazed at this bizarre “philosophy vs. science” debate, with some proponents of the former camp criticising Dawkins for shallowness because he doesn’t extend his arguments beyond the self-defined (and very rich in itself) scope of his work, and the latter claiming that scope is the be-all and end-all in any discussion of religion. I swear, it’s like a fanboy argument, made all the more petty because it’s between academics.

So to the philosophy guys: I’m sorry you’re not getting a backrub from Dawkins in his book, but like any competent author, he’s keeping his discussion within certain limits—and is successful in mining his particular vein. It’s also no sin for him to avoid the jargon, rambling convolution, and navel-gazing to which many philosophy authors fall prey—he’s a scientist who’s trying to write for a popular audience, not a scholar writing for a specialised one.

And for the science guys: science may be the way Dawkins addresses (ok, attacks) religion, but it’s not the only means by which to do so. I know it’s shocking to hear, but there have been many effective philosophical attacks on religion over the years that didn’t touch on science (Dawkins is trying to remedy this). And finally, you might want keep in mind what scientists (including the greats like Newton and Darwin) commonly called themselves before the mid-19th century: “natural philosophers.”

Comment #127: Gracchus  on  07/25  at  09:06 AM

Excellent, and very complete, reply, Gracchus. It also had occured to me that there are reasons to become an atheist which don’t rely on science. Of course, the scientific ones are quite powerful.

Comment #128: atheist  on  07/25  at  09:36 AM

OK, if there really was an all powerful god who demanded his followers worship it it would his/her/its presence obvious.
Since this is not the case, either:
A) There is no god.
B) It’s a stacked deck and any supreme being who would do something like send me to hell based on a lack of belief in things that can’t be proven without logical gymnastics isn’t worthy of my respect-let alone worship.
So, since one of these two things is true, if I ever decide to worship mythical beings I’ll go with Santa Claus.

Comment #129: scott1960  on  07/25  at  09:45 AM

What you call “ridicule” others would call harsh criticism. And it’s a legitimate reaction when my neighbour does indeed attempt, over and over again, to “pick my pocket” by trying to undermine the Establishment Clause (of which Jefferson was a fan) or threaten to “break the legs” of (or unleash violent fatwa upon) those who question the shaky basis of a belief (of which Jefferson did his share).

You just conflated two issues. This post isn’t about people trying to undermine the Establishment Clause. Was John Kerry or John Kennedy, both Catholics, trying to do that? No.

As I wrote, criticizing policies or activism of religious groups is one thing and fair game. Running around gleefully poking people in the eye because you think they’re idiots for their beliefs is just intolerant. It’s as ridiculous and counterproductive as evangelicals running around saying the gays are going to hell. Gets us nowhere.

Comment #130: Blue Texan  on  07/25  at  09:59 AM

Yawn. The Courtier’s Reply:

It’s not the courtier’s reply as much as the observation that when it comes to some things, “you’re just another guy with an opinion. BFD.”

I used to read PZ a lot until I realized he liked to write a lot about religion and comment on it with a few cranky-man opinions. At a certain point, I couldn’t care what he thought. He was just “a guy with an opinion,” not someone with any kind informed insight.

Comment #131: Tyro  on  07/25  at  10:09 AM

This post isn’t about people trying to undermine the Establishment Clause. Was John Kerry or John Kennedy, both Catholics, trying to do that? No.

Of course not. But you know full well I’m not talking about politicians like Kerry or Kennedy who happened to be Catholic but assiduously kept their religion separate from their politics

If you want to limit the discussion to Catholicism (because I now see you’re referring specifically to PZ Myers and the cracker, which wasn’t clear), I’m talking about opportunists like history’s more corrupt priests and Popes and creeps like Bill Donohue and the poor saps they prey on—people who do “weally twuly” believe in magical crackers. Without his marks, a confidence man is nothing, so I have no problem with someone exposing how the shell game really operates. Explaining and exposing shady practises does get us somewhere—further than pretending everything’s peachy-keen.

Unfortunately, when you criticise a belief (“no, that baked good isn’t really a physical manifestation of an invisible man”)  it’ll end up being taken as ridicule and mockery by the true believers (AKA the marks) no matter how gently you phrase it. Fantasists tend to be thin-skinned—comes with the territory.

Comment #132: Gracchus  on  07/25  at  10:12 AM

OK, if there really was an all powerful god who demanded his followers worship it it would his/her/its presence obvious.

Yes, that would be kind of a strange, sneaky God, that demanded belief but refused to show him/her/itself, wouldn’t it?

The only way I can see it, personally, would be if this God was trying to develop some kind of ultra-purified faith in humans. Perhaps this God would be using the earth as a sort of factory, and would be hoping to harvest this purified faith from humans’ souls periodically for some divine purpose. Maybe this God would be trying to create a world of pure innocence for a divine lark, or as an experiment, or something.

Comment #133: atheist  on  07/25  at  10:23 AM

What’s funny to me about this whole science vs. philosophy mess started when someone claimed that because Dawkins didn’t approach the atheism subject from a philosophical point of view that his point of view is worthless.

Then it morphed into how “hard science” folks claim that philosophy is a worthless point of view.

Talk about kettle pot black.

The reality is that there’s many different ways of looking at this. For something so simple it’s also insanely complicated, tied in a multitude of personal outlooks and conventional wisdoms. To each their own and all that.

Comment #134: Karmakin  on  07/25  at  10:27 AM

And apparently so far gone these days that you “respect” the WBC, and “thank God” for them, TDA? Really? Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome, old buddy…

Not likely: http://therighttobewrong.blogspot.com/2008/06/on-my-honor.html

Sometimes I intentionally swerve into hyperbole in defending their speech merely because I can’t stand the mealy-mouthed folks who passive-aggressively malign them even while claiming to respect their rights. Such people - those ones who “defend the poor, sick dears” - are no better than the concern trolls on PZ’s blog claiming they’ll pray for his soul.

If you want to know what I really think of all that fundamentalist bullshit, check this out: https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=7786177194201753003&postID=770573931389165927

My last comment was never published, so here it is:

I am glad your opinion was not shared by the Founding Fathers of this nation. How timely you chose to post this today. Time and again they looked to the Law of the Bible to guide them in forming our nation.

The 1796 Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen…

The US First Amendment:

Congress shall make <u>no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof</u>; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The Founding Fathers may have been inspired by the Bible, some of them, but each law they established was thought to be good on its own merit.

Even if your assertion were correct, however, that makes little difference: When the US was founded, slavery was legal and women weren’t permitted to vote. These things changed through a succession of human rights movements during which public policy evolved to include greater respect for individual dignity – for example, by affirming that no one person may own another.

<u>A good law is sensible, understandable, and defensible without the need for appeal to divine authority.</u>

You post reflects the great challenge of our day - the postmodern belief that there is no ultimate truth.

I never denied the existence of an ultimate truth, though I do have a hard time believing humans can access the whole of it. 

The “secular application of reason to public problems” led to the holocaust in Germany, Stalin’s reign of terror, and the Killing Fields of Cambodia.

First, it’s odd that you should invoke genocide as an evil that comes about when morality is seen as “relative”, considering how many times God ordered the wholesale slaughter by the Israelites of neighboring tribes (like the Amalakites) in the Old Testament.

As to those modern dictators, Stalin and Pol Pot may have used atheism (or pragmatism, or moral relativism) as an excuse for the miseries they inflicted, but history has proven they could have been equally successful in a Christian nation.

Hitler certainly was.

Most of the people he led to commit atrocities were staunchly Protestant or Roman Catholic – and Hitler, though his own beliefs are a lot murkier, was no atheist either.

He thought National Socialism and Christianity were ultimately incompatible, but the majority of his followers – members of the Protestant Reich Church, for example, which Hitler formed in 1933 – saw the two ideologies as well-matched.

He and his cronies often used the words of Martin Luther as a plank in their platform supporting genocide. I don’t know that Luther himself ever called for mass murder, or that he would have in any way supported Hitler, but the Nazis nonetheless claimed him as their own – and he definitely left enough in the way of anti-Jewish commentary to help the Nazis along in their evil.

At any rate, <u>genocide is ultimately unreasonable</u> in addition to being immoral.

People don’t commit evil – and yes, I do believe in that concept – merely because they believe in moral relativism; they do it because there’s a deeply corrupt side to human nature – something so ingrained that even passionate belief in an immutable moral code isn’t always enough to defeat it. This is especially true for those who do evil “for the greater good.”

Comment #135: The Devil's Advocate  on  07/25  at  10:30 AM

Of course not. But you know full well I’m not talking about politicians like Kerry or Kennedy who happened to be Catholic but assiduously kept their religion separate from their politics.

Again, not what this post is about. Not what Jefferson said (who didn’t conflate believing in 20 gods with theocracy, btw.) This post goes beyond keeping religion separate from politics, which I steadfastly agree with—it says that religious belief itself is inherently foolish and corrupt, and those practicing it have damaged their brains. Worse, it takes the additional, unnecessary step of mocking specific religious beliefs.

Atheism has its Jerry Falwells and Bill Donahues. And, as is the case with those two beauties, people who run around screaming “heretic” at people like Barack Obama and Jimmy Carter aren’t going to convince anyone but the choir.

Comment #136: Blue Texan  on  07/25  at  10:32 AM

And here’s the rest of it…

Philip Zimbardo encountered this side of human nature during the Stanford Prison Experiment. Stanley Milgram encountered it during his studies on obedience to authority. These are well-known psychological studies, and the results cannot be ignored: That ugly thing crops up most often whenever a dichotomy is set up between one group and another, and a power differential is established – prisoners/guards, “learners/facilitators” (a la Milgram), black/white, Jew/Non-Jew, Hutu/Tutsi, Croat/Serb, gay/straight.

Law that is not based on ultimate truth is subject to pragmatism and situational ethics. Our nation is in a moral tailspin because we are striving to achieve what you promote.

If something is the ultimate truth, this should be apparent without the need for an appeal to authority. The average person should be able to identify it as truth based on reason and observation. This shouldn’t require a belief in the supernatural.

I can, for example, make a good case against abortion without invoking God. I can make an even better case for defending the needy and supporting the elderly.

I cannot, however, find anything compelling that leads me to believe civil unions for homosexuals is wrong. I’m not convinced by arguments like that of Matt Barber or by vague allusions to some shadowy “gay agenda.” 

<i><b>In the end, we either have anarchy or totalitarianism. Which would you select? <i><b>

False dichotomy. There are more choices than anarchy and totalitarianism. One need only look at how well the Scandinavian countries are doing to see that.

It’s simply that anti-theism irritates me as much as religious fundamentalism does. I would expect the inability to listen to a reasonable argument from WBC members, but not from people who claim to pride themselves on their ability to apply logic to everyday situations.

I can get on board with people who claim religion shouldn’t be exempt from criticism, but not with those who think it’s incumbent upon atheists to go around bitch-slapping every theist they can find with a copy of “The God Delusion” because, oh the poor dears, it’s such a simple book that even some deluded religionist should be able to understand the arguments.

Comment #137: The Devil's Advocate  on  07/25  at  10:33 AM

On the one hand I accept that philosophy is a useful discipline (hell my partner’s deep in the middle of a phd trying to show that most of the humanities pretty much are science)  on the other…what arguments could philosophy raise that would in any way justify treating the claims of supernaturalists any more seriously than the FSM?

I am genuinely curious here.

Comment #138: Annamal  on  07/25  at  10:37 AM

It’s as ridiculous and counterproductive as evangelicals running around saying the gays are going to hell. Gets us nowhere.

I see your point, Blue. It could very well be politically counterproductive to talk about atheism, or even admit that we are atheists, at least in the short run.

Ultimately, though, I just disagree. I think in the long run it’s best to just be honest.

Comment #139: atheist  on  07/25  at  10:39 AM

And, as is the case with those two beauties, people who run around screaming “heretic” at people like Barack Obama and Jimmy Carter aren’t going to convince anyone but the choir.

Who’s screaming that Obama and Carter are heretics? I haven’t heard it.

Comment #140: atheist  on  07/25  at  10:46 AM

It’s simply that anti-theism irritates me as much as religious fundamentalism does.

Fair enough, but that’s like saying that mosquitos irritate me as much as dangerous drivers do. Religious fundamentalists are actually threatening. Anti-theism posturing by the likes of PZ Meyers is just a petty annoyance, in the same way you might have an intelligent friend whom you respect who nevertheless will occasionally go off on a rant about how the world is controlled by the Bilderbergers and Bohemian Grove. You just roll your eyes and think, “sigh, there he goes again.” The religious fundamentalists will actively harrass you, take over your school board, and try to drive you out of business.

Comment #141: Tyro  on  07/25  at  11:16 AM

what arguments could philosophy raise that would in any way justify treating the claims of supernaturalists any more seriously than the FSM?
I am genuinely curious here.

…that, so long as a person is following the law and dealing fairly with his neighbors, his interior life should not be the subject of uninvited critical analysis by other people – whether he believes in God or is a materialist.

How a person behaves if of far more importance than what he believes. Even if behavior flows from belief, a person shouldn’t have to answer for his beliefs until they become actions.

Religion, as a subject, should most certainly be open to criticism and debate – but there’s a point past which an attack on religion also becomes an attack on people who hold to specific doctrines. It’s not just “religion is stupid” and “those who have religious beliefs may be rational people who believe a few irrational things”, but rather “religious people are victims” or they’re simpletons who need to be enlightened through the application of crass mockery.

Comment #142: The Devil's Advocate  on  07/25  at  11:16 AM

I see your point, Blue. It could very well be politically counterproductive to talk about atheism, or even admit that we are atheists, at least in the short run.

Didn’t say that either. My point is, it’s possible to make an eloquent defense of atheism, if you feel it necessary, without saying theists brains are damaged.

Comment #143: Blue Texan  on  07/25  at  11:22 AM

PHILOSOPHY, n. A route of many roads, leading from nowhere to nothing.

—-Ambrose Bierce

Comment #144: Bitter Scribe  on  07/25  at  11:48 AM

Screw philosophy.  Back to religion for me.  And an olive branch, from a theist like me to like minded atheists, like Amanda.  (I will explain the like-mindedness below.)

“it’s clear to me the people who are fucked up the most in this whole thing are those whose brains have been addled by Catholicism.”

OUCH.  Look, here’s the thing, Donohue is an ass.  I’m not a fan of that Domino’s pizza Ave-Maria founding guy either.  But if you look at the poll numbers on American Catholics, the majority of us are: 1) Democrats or progressive; 2) pro-choice; and 3) pro-contraception.  I know that is not ‘what the church teaches.’  But most priests I know do not harp on those issues, and are much more likely to harp on issues like helping the poor.  I went to a Catholic University.  The University-founded social justice organization PROTESTED THE UNIVERSITY’S DECISION to replace janitors/food workers with contractors, because direct employees had better salaries and benefits, and could send their children to the University for free.  I thought it was pretty funny that they were using the U’s money to do this.  smile  Many of us pro-choice Catholics are deeply disturbed about what our church is doing in the rest of the world, particularly south and central america.  Between that, and between the Pope’s pronouncements about feminism, I have resolved to never set foot in church again until we get another pope.  I am not saying that the political beliefs of the church are neutral or harmless, and please, please criticize them, because individual Catholics should take accountability and try to change (or leave) the system.  At bottom, any educated Catholic knows that it is our conscience, not even the pope, who has the last word. 

Now, to the heart of my discontent with books like Hitchens’ or Dawkins’.  I get that religion can be extremely negative.  I have not yet decided whether, in a religion-free world, people would find something else to fill that gap and use to justify evil and agression against those marked as ‘other.’  Not having much faith in human nature, my answer would be ‘yes,’ but I can’t prove it or envision the substitute.  I can understand why atheists are frustrated being surrounded by a bunch of theists.  A lot of theists hold simplistic beliefs that are easily shat upon and aren’t exactly paragons of virtue when dealing with atheists. (Deliberate understatement, there).  But the more nuanced theists, the mystics, those who don’t believe in Daddy-God or what I call the “Giant Ledger-Book in the Sky” (a concept I rejected around 7 because it was stupid), we resent like hell being grouped with these jackasses.  Particularly because many of us believe very strongly in the separation of church and state.  Also because those jackasses really aren’t that much nicer to us than they are to you. 

We see our beliefs as more nuanced, and not hurting anyone, because while religion may shape our views of right and wrong, we still recognize that everyone else has views of right and wrong that need to be considered, and we recognize the separation between our personal choices and lives, and the group.

Okay, that was my 2 cents.

Comment #145: Ismone  on  07/25  at  11:50 AM

This post goes beyond keeping religion separate from politics, which I steadfastly agree with—it says that religious belief itself is inherently foolish and corrupt, and those practicing it have damaged their brains.

Well, belief in the supernatural is inherently foolish—sometimes it’s good foolish (e.g. spending a few moments indulging oneself in a ghost story), and very often it’s bad foolish.

“Corrupt” is an adjective applied by Dawkins less to religious belief and more to religious organisations that exploit that belief. Religious beliefs can certainly become “corrupted” over time due to memetic degradation, but that’s another sort of corruption.

And the “brain damage” contention is a distortion and misinterpretion made by people who are unfamiliar (willfully or genuinely) with Dawkins’ scientific work on cognitive evolution (“brain altered” might be a better and more neutral description).

Atheism has its Jerry Falwells and Bill Donahues.

Perhaps, especially in Europe. In America, though, I don’t see them sating their lust for money and fame by gulling atheists of good faith (so to speak) and demanding that the government go against core Constitutional principles to protect them from things like scary cartoons.

In other words, the Falwells and Donahues provide athiest activists with a lot more shell games to expose than vice versa. And given the nature of their cons, part of that exposure involves of necessity dispelling mysticism and supernatural hokum.

Comment #146: Gracchus  on  07/25  at  12:08 PM

That sounds a bit of Struassian to me, Ismone. There are (even this atheist agrees) positive things done by liberal Catholics despite the Church, but then you don’t object to the Noble Lie for the great unwashed, while you bask in your more rarefied mystic oneness with the metaphoric Cosmic Muffin.

Comment #147: Ken Cope  on  07/25  at  12:08 PM

I really, really, really want to tell you what to do. It fuels my existence.

See also: Shorter Jerry Falwell

I really, really, really want to tell you what to do. It fuels my existence.

Yeah, looking at faces around this poker table- pig to man, man to pig, whatever.

Comment #148: Shorter Richard Dawkins  on  07/25  at  12:12 PM

Gosh, it’s almost like Dawkins tends to focus his criticisms on the dominant theology in his country of origin.

But no by all means Christians, please do continue to hide under Buddha’s robes.

Anyone feel like making an argument that say, transubstantiation isn’t basically ridiculous, and embarrassing for any grown adult who claims to believe it?

Comment #149: Dan  on  07/25  at  12:17 PM

Atheism has its Jerry Falwells and Bill Donahues.

Yeah, anyone can be an asshole. It doesn’t change that I want to tell the truth.

Also, in most of the world, the Jerry Fallwells of atheism, whoever they may be, are not one millionth as powerful as the actual Jerry Fallwells & Bill Donahues. I think we need to work towards equalizing the power dynamic simply to create some balance of terror. Otherwise the religious will always attack us at will.

Comment #150: atheist  on  07/25  at  12:19 PM

Well, belief in the supernatural is inherently foolish—sometimes it’s good foolish (e.g. spending a few moments indulging oneself in a ghost story), and very often it’s bad foolish.

“Corrupt” is an adjective applied by Dawkins less to religious belief and more to religious organisations that exploit that belief. Religious beliefs can certainly become “corrupted” over time due to memetic degradation, but that’s another sort of corruption.

I think he explores both, and this does generate a certain degree of confusion.  Starting a cult and demanding that the members turn over all their pretty young daughters for your carnal pleasure is “corrupt”.  But the cult you’ve started remains in its “pure” form.

Starting a religion that worships the sun and - 200 years later - watching that religion worship a big rock that is anointed “The Child of the Sun” could be an example of a religion being “corrupted” by the passage of time.  But it isn’t necessarily a form of political or ethical corruption.

Dawkins addresses both phenomena.

And the “brain damage” contention is a distortion and misinterpretion made by people who are unfamiliar (willfully or genuinely) with Dawkins’ scientific work on cognitive evolution (“brain altered” might be a better and more neutral description).

Dawkins tries to explain why we believe in a higher power so consistently across so many cultures.  The evangelicals would have you believe that we were intelligently designed that way.  Dawkins claims that it is a byproduct of other natural inclinations.  Because Dawkins regards innate religiocity as a vestigial feature - the mental equivalent of the apendex - evangelicals have twisted it into suggesting that Dawkins claims they are inferior.  And from there we get the whole, “You’re being prejudiced against religious people” meme that they love to fall back on.

So its a heads-they-win (biology makes so religious, so religion must be right) tails-you-lose (only a bigot would claim religion is innately bad) argument.  Only they get to play the biology card when talking about religion and only on their terms.  :-p So it’s about par for the course with their standard rhetoric.

Comment #151: Zifnab25  on  07/25  at  12:22 PM

Ken Cope,  Not getting the Strauss reference.  And believe me, I do not leave other religious people alone.  Normally, I don’t bring it up, but if they do, I will poke and prod at their beliefs.  I was at one school that was so toxic to Catholics (and yes, I know it was worse for the Atheists and Jewish students, so I had their backs too) that we used to play “let’s bait the protestants.”  It was one of those fun/mean games.  Try telling certain sects of protestants that Jesus never descended into hell (gehenna), instead he descended into “the land of the dead” (sheol).  Heads will explode, but since it is an argument based on the original hebrew, there really isn’t anything they can do about it. 

Like I said, I want separation of church and state, and will fight for it, but when I and other moderate religious people are grouped with the boneheads, it is hard to have a convo. because we’re being told we believe things that we don’t.  (And no, this isn’t a retread of “play nice atheists, or I’ll take my ball and go home” it is more along the lines of “you have allies that you aren’t aware of, who are concerned with the same issues you are, and we have the same goals and can be effective together.”)

Comment #152: Ismone  on  07/25  at  12:23 PM

Nope, Dan, I don’t want to make that argument, because I do not feel the need to justify my beliefs to you.

Comment #153: Ismone  on  07/25  at  12:24 PM

Anyone feel like making an argument that say, transubstantiation isn’t basically ridiculous, and embarrassing for any grown adult who claims to believe it?

I’m worshiping a 2000-year-old guy who claims to have been born from an 18-year-old married girl who didn’t have sex with her husband (or anyone else) in order to conceive her.  If I say his name, followed by some other mumbo-jumbo, when I die I get transported to a magical cloud kingdom ruled by that 2000-year-old guy, and I never have to work or get sick or feel sad again.  If I don’t say his name followed by mumbo-jumbo, I get throwing into the center of the earth where I am poked with pointy sticks by red-skinned angry men with goat legs and horns.

I am willing to accept all of this.

But tell me that my cracker and my juice cup can’t be filled with magic spirit energy because an old man in a big hat said other mumbo-jumbo over it, and that’s where I draw the line folks.

I mean, seriously, that’s just crazy bullshit.

Comment #154: Zifnab25  on  07/25  at  12:28 PM

Anti-theism posturing by the likes of PZ Meyers is just a petty annoyance, in the same way you might have an intelligent friend whom you respect who nevertheless will occasionally go off on a rant about how the world is controlled by the Bilderbergers and Bohemian Grove.

With the exception of small pockets where militant atheists dominated like my undergrad campus, if you’re talking about most parts of the US I’d agree. 

If you expand this internationally, your argument does not hold as well, especially in places like Mainland China where even with slightly greater religious freedom than the Maoist era, being religious can still subject you to serious systemic discrimination in many areas of life such as accessing government services, getting hired/promoted in government/academia*, and even arbitrary imprisonment and brutal mistreatment….all far more serious than merely being subjected to “petty annoyances”. 

* Becoming a Communist Party member is still a necessary requirement to advance and otherwise remain in good standing in the public sector, especially at the higher levels.  According to every mainland Chinese grad student I’ve met, studying the current communist orthodoxy is still mandated by the government for all students and faculty members in a higher ed landscape overwhelmingly dominated by public government-run universities….especially the topflight institutions like Beida and Tsinghua.  A serious concern. especially when the government/public sector until quite recently dominated the Chinese economy and with that dominance, the majority of available jobs.  Being openly religious…or even having a relative who happens to be could seriously impede your chances of ever being hired, promoted, or even retained at a public sector job…especially at the higher levels.

Comment #155: exholt  on  07/25  at  12:36 PM

Thank you Zifnab25, that was pure awesome.

Comment #156: Ismone  on  07/25  at  12:38 PM

Ok, exholt, fair enough. But in context, I was specifically addressing “The Devil’s Advocate” comparison of the anti-theism people we’re talking about now with religious fundamentalists who are currently screaming about them.

The thing is, though, that I don’t associate the militant atheism of, say, Dawkins and PZ Meyers with the oppressive anti-religion-campaigns of Communism. They don’t compare, and I don’t think that Amanda, PZ, or Dawkins would endorse them.

I don’t mean to dispute you, you’re raising real issues—I know people who, even in relatively the relatively progressive Communist-era Yugoslavia, did not have their children baptized in part because they worried about what the future professional consequences for their children would be. However, until Dawkins and PZ start saying that a person’s personal religious/spiritual beliefs about the existence of God make them unqualified for jobs or start taking over school boards and demanding that the curriculum teach that all religions are fictions followed by the delusional, I’m going to regard them as petty annoyances when they say something I find silly.

Comment #157: Tyro  on  07/25  at  12:46 PM

Look up Leo Strauss, Ismone—basically Noble Lie encoded in philosophical baffle-gab; when neocons were mere acolytes, they’d toady up to him when they were tired of being Randroids. He got it from Plato’s Republic, where the ideal state would regulate the fairy tales told to the populace at large to keep them under control. I’ll steal a motif from Thom Hartmann, that one of the differences between liberals and conservatives is that liberals think people are basically good, while conservatives think people are basically bad. The problem with religious thinkers across the political spectrum is the fear that without religion, people will behave badly.

Comment #158: Ken Cope  on  07/25  at  12:49 PM

@ TYRO:

Fair enough, but that’s like saying that mosquitos irritate me as much as dangerous drivers do. Religious fundamentalists are actually threatening.

Religious fundamentalists are threatening not merely because of what they believe, but because of how they behave. Their rhetoric is exclusionist and xenophobic. They’re openly hostile towards other points of view, and are not above censoring unfavorable comments just to make their own flimsy arguments look better.

I’ve never encountered an anti-theist who engaged in censorship on his or her blog, but the underlying structure of an anti-theist’s response to theism is really no different than the underlying structure of a fundamentalist’s response to atheism: the presupposition that one point of view is so good, so iron-clad, that mockery is the best way to deal with opponents; the view that opponents, no matter how earnest they may be, are either deluded or arguing in bad faith; and the treatment of opponents as an inferior intellectual class.

It doesn’t matter whether this kind of argument is coming from a religious fundamentalist or an atheist. It still sucks ass. The structure itself is dangerous, no matter who is employing it.

Anti-theism posturing by the likes of PZ Meyers is just a petty annoyance, in the same way you might have an intelligent friend whom you respect who nevertheless will occasionally go off on a rant about how the world is controlled by the Bilderbergers and Bohemian Grove.

PZ Myers’ underlying criticisms of Catholicism were on-the-mark, in my opinion. They way some Catholics reacted – for example, by threatening his life because he threatened to ‘desecrate’ a cracker – only served to prove his underlying point about how dumb it is to treat a bit of religious frippery as being more important than treating human beings with respect.

His delivery was terrible, however, and needlessly divisive: It’s one thing for him to call transubstantiation stupid, but quite another to threaten the improper destruction of a religion’s sacred objects for no better a reason than to prove how bad-ass he is.

You just roll your eyes and think, “sigh, there he goes again.” The religious fundamentalists will actively harrass you, take over your school board, and try to drive you out of business.

That’s merely because there’s more of them. If atheists were a majority, and anti-theists were a vocal subset of that majority, I firmly believe the anti-theists would be acting in the same way as fundamentalists do now - because They Know They’re Right™ and it’s their job, as enlightened beings, to bring fire to us savages.

Comment #159: The Devil's Advocate  on  07/25  at  12:57 PM

See, the problem with that is, even if that were the purpose of religion, it obviously doesn’t work. People will still behave badly.

Comment #160: atheist  on  07/25  at  12:57 PM

Ken Cope,  Will do.  Sounds interesting.

I don’t think I hew to either the conservative or liberal view of people.  I think that most people, in the right circumstances (or perhaps wrong is the better word) can and will do very evil things.  I am interested in what keeps those who do not behave badly in those situations moral.  I am hoping it can be taught.  I know it is not religion, because religious people tend to fail those tests in the same numbers that non-religious people do.

Now if I can just do that and cure a few diseases . . .

Comment #161: Ismone  on  07/25  at  01:01 PM

With respect to the questions I raised earlier about what counts as religion, etc., I brought that up because a broad criticism of religion can get one involved in some very unprogressive sticky situations and that that needs to be considered when bringing religion under scrutiny.

Religion is, of course, not just a metaphysical expression but also a cultural one.  Given the role it plays, especially today, in the cultural revival/survival of all kinds of peoples, I think atheists (and I include myself in this category)  need to recognize how the context of the discussion of religion shifts depending on to whom they’re talking.

Let me give an example.  I happened to be in Canada over the past month or so, and on Canada Day, I went to a number of events being put on to celebrate the holiday.  One of these featured dancing and singing by a number of First Nations people who lived in the area.  At various points in the ceremonies, the MC’s explained what the significance was of the songs, the drumming, etc. for the benefit of those who may not have been familiar with First Nations cultures.  As you might guess, many of these had profound religious and spiritual elements to them.  At one point, the MC led the audience in a prayer (said in Anishinabe, I think) after stating the basic belief of his people (or many of them, I would think):  that all human beings come from a Creator.

Now, I don’t share that belief.  I understood, however, that at that particular moment, I was standing in a space that had religious significance to First Nations people.  Not that anyone here would do this, but were I to express to the native peoples there that they were deluded and that I felt sorry for them on that account, I have a feeling that they wouldn’t have appreciated much a white guy telling them that.

Comment #162: Linnaeus  on  07/25  at  01:09 PM

People will still behave badly

And people will still behave as well as they ever have. Liberals and conservatives both want to rely upon religion to channel political purposes. I don’t know any other atheists who think religion will ever go away—the deists among America’s founders, particularly Jefferson, didn’t. I’m one of those who tends to think of religion as cultural identification, and as an apostate former theist, I’m part of an outcast culture that still identifies with the Zen Buddhists who purposely wore the garb of a criminal. Atheists ain’t never gonna be in charge any more than the Zen Buddhists will. In America at least, religion has displaced education in the humanities and sciences to such a degree that it is dispiriting, if you’ll pardon the expression to watch the left and right take turns beating up on the atheists who are militant and angry merely for not shutting up and going away.

Comment #163: Ken Cope  on  07/25  at  01:13 PM

In a way, it’s insulting to say that religion’s purpose is to keep the populace in line. To someone who believes, it’s really way more than that. It’s someone learning the true nature of the world & their relation to the universe. If you believe that the universe is run by God, and that this God really cares about you personally, then its pretty damn important to know. Acting right seems like small potatoes compared to that.

Comment #164: atheist  on  07/25  at  01:16 PM

Dawkins tries to explain why we believe in a higher power so consistently across so many cultures.  The evangelicals would have you believe that we were intelligently designed that way.  Dawkins claims that it is a byproduct of other natural inclinations.  Because Dawkins regards innate religiocity as a vestigial feature - the mental equivalent of the apendex - evangelicals have twisted it into suggesting that Dawkins claims they are inferior

You know, it’s funny, if Dawkins really does say what you think he says (and doesn’t throw in a lot of condescending claptrap as his his wont), I fully agree with him.  I think that, insofar as humans believe in god, it has much more to do with some accident of our programming than for any higher purpose.  It’s just that I don’t think the religion blip is a particularly bad blip, any more than any of the MANY other blipswe humans come with are necessarily bad. 

I also have to say that I’ve finally determined what it is that I find so obnoxious about Dawkins, and why I’m predisposed to dislike almost any position he takes (and I felt this way before The God Delusion).  Dawkins is fundamentally a misanthrope.  In fact, beyond that (from reading The Selfish Gene and the like), he comes off as a mis-LIFE-thrope (misvivthrope? ).  Which is pretty fundamentally opposite from my outlook on the world.  I’ve never gotten on well with philosophers (ESPECIALLY of the armchair variety) who feel that way, that humans are fundamentally evil and the natural world is a diseased plague (or pointless, or empty, or devoid of purpose).  It’s why I never got into Hobbes, pretty much hate Freud, and can’t be bothered with nihilism or most existentialism.  (It’s also one of the big reasons that penitence-heavy mainstream Christianity has never sat well with me.) This is probably a flaw of my own academic personality, but I just don’t have time for the work of someone who thinks that the entire world is an illusion sustained for the benefit of DNA, which is fundamentally a sort of parasite.  And I see his views on religion as coming out of that curmudgeonly worldview. 

This isn’t, by the way, a reasoned critique of Why Dawkins Is Wrong, just an admission of why I find him so difficult to stomach.

Comment #165: The Opoponax  on  07/25  at  01:18 PM

You feel that way Opoponax, that’s fine. Do realize, though, that not all people are ‘programmed’ the way you are. Religion doesn’t feel ‘natural’ to everyone. Cynicism doesn’t feel unpleasant to everyone. Personally I’m starting to get into the whole cynicism thing. Makes life so much more pleasant and interesting, to me.

Comment #166: atheist  on  07/25  at  01:23 PM

Because if words actually did harm people you wouldn’t be so supportive of the Westboro Baptist Church.  Who daily proclaim that X is rotting in hell because of Y.  Which would mean that they are harming people every day with their mean to the 10th power words.

Casting your opponents as simpletons infected by the disease of religion, then proclaiming your own beliefs to be a cure for that contagion – the statement itself isn’t harmful, but the actions likely to flow from it most certainly can be.

Pickets are not harmful, but pogroms (See: Stalin, Joseph) are. 

Part of the reason I defend the WBC is because it is NOT popular, and is thus subject to a whole boat-load of eliminationist rhetoric. If the WBC’s views were popular, I wouldn’t waste my time in defending them. They wouldn’t require a defense. In fact, they’d require the opposite, because their popularity would make them quite dangerous.

Comment #167: The Devil's Advocate  on  07/25  at  01:26 PM

Do realize, though, that not all people are ‘programmed’ the way you are. Religion doesn’t feel ‘natural’ to everyone. Cynicism doesn’t feel unpleasant to everyone.

Reading comprehension, please.  I framed almost every sentence of my above coment as an “I personally feel that…” construction.  There was absolutely nothing prescriptive there, at all.  I was explaining why I, myself, happen to not enjoy reading Dawkins and don’t have any instinctive level of respect for very much that he has to say (with the exception of his specific subject area, biology, which I’m generally not qualified to critique).  If you get something out of seeing all existence of every lifeform as a parasitic illusion, so be it.  I’ll be over here actually having a good time, though, if you don’t mind.

Comment #168: The Opoponax  on  07/25  at  01:28 PM

I understand Opoponax.

All I’m saying is, seeing the existence of every life form as a parasitic illusion can BE a good time, too, in its own way.

Comment #169: atheist  on  07/25  at  01:33 PM

That doesn’t at all sound like the Dawkins I’ve read—it’s difficult to know where to start, but I’d particularly like to attack the notion that atheism=nihilism. Meaning is something people assign to the world and events; it’s because of an accident of language, in which meaning is encoded, that we anthropomorphize the world and expect it to contain meaning that we haven’t constellated upon it. That meaning does not surround us in an aware, conscious universe that has us at the center of its intention does not mean that we must abandon meaning—it’s what we bring to the party.

Somebody who describes these accidents pretty well is Michael Shermer, who is probably not the first to describe us as descendants of people who were exceptionally good pattern-seekers and story tellers. The people who lacked the imagination to see patterns in the tall grass as a tiger did not survive as often as those who jumped at everything that might be a tiger, and a byproduct of that survival skill is the aptitude for the constellation of pattern and meaning where none necessarily exist. Perhaps that’s only a just-so story. Perhaps the unpleasantness of Dawkins’ inversion of the way we think of ourselves is a useful inversion of subject and background, which makes you see the story of who and what we are differently. There is nothing intrinsically nihilistic in concluding that gods are concepts with no correspondence to reality, that consciousness is a property of emergent complexity from processes that are bottom up, rather than intelligence driving creation from the top down.

It sounds to me like your issues, TO, are less with Dawkins than with what you see as necessary implications of reductionism, which, whatever you may think of it, has been an extremely useful tool in understanding ourselves, biologically and neurologically. It may just not be your favorite kind of story.

Comment #170: Ken Cope  on  07/25  at  01:45 PM

Do atheist religions then count as “religion”?

Because people who hide behind Buddhism to defend their belief in an Abrahamic religion, I have to call this one a red herring designed to distract from uncomfortable questions raised by legitimate criticisms.  Buddhism has too much woo to be considered a philosophy, but I tend to think that Confucianism was only called a “religion” because “philosophy” hadn’t evolved enough to label it as such.  Buddhism is technically atheistic, but let’s not play around.  It’s still woo-based.

Comment #171: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  01:52 PM

Pickets are not harmful, but pogroms (See: Stalin, Joseph) are.

Nobody was talking about a pogrom. Neither criticism nor even mockery are threats.

Comment #172: atheist  on  07/25  at  01:53 PM

I think the problem philosophers have with Dawkins is that he essentially ignores them and takes on the real beliefs of the majority of theists. He takes on the daddy god that cares about us individually and listens to us and intercedes on our behalf because that is the god the majority in the west believe in.

I loved how he pointed out that people prefer to talk about the other kind of god, because it’s less embarrassing, but really, there’s no point in believing in the other kind of god, or praying to him or whatever.  In a way, the average believer that apologists pretend is a minority or doesn’t exist is wiser than the apologist—-they realize that a god you can’t pray to isn’t a real god at all.

Comment #173: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  01:57 PM

To the person that asked why the comment threads are long if religion isn’t interesting—-it’s worth noting that the topic of god’s godliness is almost never discussed in these things.  The points of interest—-how we know what we know, human frailty, whether or not we should let touchy people who are embarrassed by themselves set the tone of discussions—-drive the conversation.  God, who is really a yes/no question, is marginal and an excuse for the larger conversation.

Comment #174: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  02:04 PM

You know, it’s funny, if Dawkins really does say what you think he says (and doesn’t throw in a lot of condescending claptrap as his his wont), I fully agree with him.

Well,  he does and he does.  And that’s what makes him so interesting to read and yet so hard to finish.  I never made it through the God Delusion because by the second to last chapter I was just sick to death of him insinuating that all religious people are idiots.

His points are valid.  His critiques are (mostly) exhaustive.  But he has a habit of talking down to people that I ultimately get disgusted with.  If he could just lay out the facts without adding in the ego, he’d be a better salesman for atheism as a concept.  Unfortunately, you really do need an ego to get noticed as a loud, proud, authoritative atheist.  It’s harder to get mad at Dawkins when he’s the most effective pitcher on your bench.

Comment #175: Zifnab25  on  07/25  at  02:06 PM

You know, it’s funny, if Dawkins really does say what you think he says (and doesn’t throw in a lot of condescending claptrap as his his wont), I fully agree with him.

He does, albeit with less “condescending claptrap” than you’ll get from traditional philosophers discussing religion.

It’s just that I don’t think the religion blip is a particularly bad blip, any more than any of the MANY other blipswe humans come with are necessarily bad.

Dawkins sees it religion particularly bad for three reasons: because it encourages belief in the supernatural (which he detests); because it’s an highly contagious meme complex that takes advantage of atavistic psychological needs (a phenomenon where he’s pioneered study); and because there are countless scumbags who’ve taken advantage of the first two facts throughout history (he is a very informed cynic).

There are few memetic “blips” that have caused that much trouble and misery so consistently for such a long period.

This isn’t, by the way, a reasoned critique of Why Dawkins Is Wrong, just an admission of why I find him so difficult to stomach.

Sometimes great intellectual observations (or great artistic works for that matter) come from unpleasant people. Scratch that: not “sometimes” but “often.”

I’m just glad that enough people have been able to make that distinction to keep the book on bestseller lists for almost a year and sell over a million copies—even if not everyone agrees with him or finds his misanthropy off-putting.

Comment #176: Gracchus  on  07/25  at  02:06 PM

Neither criticism nor even mockery are threats.

Except, of course, when it’s coming from a religious fundie. For example, “Ha-ha! You athiests are gonna burn in eternal pain and torment for all eternity.” Fundie mockery is big on dire consequences in the afterlife .

Not that athiests would take this “threat” seriously—a shrug or a dismissive laugh is about as bad a reaction as that mockery will get. Tell the religious fundie he’s wasting his time on the planet with fairy tales, however, and you get quite a different reaction.

Comment #177: Gracchus  on  07/25  at  02:08 PM

I’d particularly like to attack the notion that atheism=nihilism

Please learn to read.

I didn’t say atheism is nihilism, I said that one reason I find Dawkins’ entire oeuvre (not just the atheism) hard to stomach is that his signature outlook is one of extreme cynicism.  Let’s all remember that this is the man who built his career on the concept that all life on earth exists purely as a bunch of extraneous crap created so that DNA can continue propagating itself.  Which, OK, if that’s what he believes, but, wow, if that’s not nihilism’s second cousin twice removed…

Comment #178: The Opoponax  on  07/25  at  02:12 PM

God, who is really a yes/no question, is marginal and an excuse for the larger conversation.

That’s true, but the question was whether religion was considered uninteresting. Which, obviously, it is.

Comment #179: Tyro  on  07/25  at  02:14 PM

Sometimes great intellectual observations (or great artistic works for that matter) come from unpleasant people. Scratch that: not “sometimes” but “often.”

Uhhh, yeah.  I know. 

(this is sort of what I mean about condescending claptrap—the idea that anyone who doesn’t already agree with you is some sort of subliterate moron who has probably never left their parents’ basement.)

My point is not “Well I don’t like Dawkins because he comes off as a douchebag, “but “I don’t really get Dawkins’ work because his outlook is so thoroughly opposite mine that we’re speaking completely different philosophical languages.  Thus I will generally spend my time on things that actually interest me (and am perfectly happy for those who don’t have this issue with Dawkins, or are on his wavelength,  to continue in their Dawkins love).

I’m allowed not to find certain ideas or outlooks interesting.  It’s another of the unfortunate but really rather interesting “blips” I was talking about above.

Comment #180: The Opoponax  on  07/25  at  02:20 PM

Please learn to read

Piss off.

Comment #181: Ken Cope  on  07/25  at  02:21 PM

“Which, obvious, it isn’t,” I meant to say. We’ve been constantly talking about religion, among other things, through this whole thread.

Comment #182: Tyro  on  07/25  at  02:31 PM

Because people who hide behind Buddhism to defend their belief in an Abrahamic religion, I have to call this one a red herring designed to distract from uncomfortable questions raised by legitimate criticisms.  Buddhism has too much woo to be considered a philosophy, but I tend to think that Confucianism was only called a “religion” because “philosophy” hadn’t evolved enough to label it as such.  Buddhism is technically atheistic, but let’s not play around.  It’s still woo-based.

That’s my sense of the issue as well; if we’re talking about religion writ large, I’m not sure it’s all that useful to distinguish between atheistic and theistic religions.

Comment #183: Linnaeus  on  07/25  at  02:32 PM

Well, he does and he does.  And that’s what makes him so interesting to read and yet so hard to finish.  I never made it through the God Delusion because by the second to last chapter I was just sick to death of him insinuating that all religious people are idiots.

Which is ironic to me, when you consider that some of the finest minds in the history of science were quite religious.  Wrong in their belief in a God?  Okay, I can buy that.  Idiots?  No.

Interesting historical sidenote:  The term “scientist” was coined by William Whewell, an Anglican minister and a man of no mean scientific education himself.  Lord Kelvin rather disliked that term (as well as “physicist”, also coined by Whewell) and preferred to be called the older term “natural philosopher” right up until his death.

Comment #184: Linnaeus  on  07/25  at  02:39 PM

all life on earth exists purely as a bunch of extraneous crap created so that DNA can continue propagating itself.  Which, OK, if that’s what he believes, but, wow, if that’s not nihilism’s second cousin twice removed…

Which is what life on Earth actually is, at least from the perspective of the DNA molecule.

Although, from the perspective of a Christian, life on earth is just an infinitesmally short trial, in which a person’s soul either succeeds in gaining entrance to eternal paradise, or sinks toward everlasting torment. It is interesting that, from this perspective as well, earthly existence is a pretty hollow and meaningless thing.

Comment #185: atheist  on  07/25  at  02:40 PM

However, in our climate of science worship (and I worship science more than most people do, I think), we think that natural scientists are qualified to make pronouncements about all sorts of issues that aren’t scientific.

Too bad for you philosophers aren’t qualified to make pronouncements about anything. How do we know what we know? Do we live in the Matrix? Maybe I’m a brain in a jar! And you’re shocked - shocked! - when people stop listening when philosophers open their mouths.

Science is meaningless without the humanities.

The reason you have the leisure to contemplate whether or not you’re a brain in a jar is because scientists and engineers have built a world where that is possible. But I often wonder where we would be as a society without the important contributions of people who get paid to wonder whether or not we’re brains in a jar.

all life on earth exists purely as a bunch of extraneous crap created so that DNA can continue propagating itself.

I guess it’s too bad that the selfish gene hypothesis offends your delicate sensibilities, but it’s actually a really good model for the way things work. I work in population genetics rather than the mechanistic side of genetics, but from what I’ve read this seems to be fairly accurate. I hardly think eusociality would exist if not for the selfish gene. It’s got nothing at all to do with nihilism or anything like that. Feel free to waste a bunch of your time contemplating the philosophical implications of being a vehicle for your DNA, but I’ve got more important things to do. Like play video games.

I would also like to point out that Darwin started with a beetle collection.

Comment #186: Entomologista  on  07/25  at  02:41 PM

Please, let’s not get into the two cultures debate.  That way lies…well, nothing.

Comment #187: Linnaeus  on  07/25  at  02:44 PM

The reason you have the leisure to contemplate whether or not you’re a brain in a jar is because scientists and engineers have built a world where that is possible. But I often wonder where we would be as a society without the important contributions of people who get paid to wonder whether or not we’re brains in a jar.

You know, scientists have certainly discovered a lot of awesome stuff, and engineers have built a lot of great things. Don’t you think though, that it’s overdone to claim that scientists and engineers have built the entire world?

Comment #188: atheist  on  07/25  at  02:48 PM

And to be fair to Dawkins, Opoponax, the “selfish gene” concept does not mean that human culture is meaningless or of no worth.  IIRC, Dawkins thinks quite the opposite.

Comment #189: Linnaeus  on  07/25  at  02:48 PM

DA, that you think “writing a post praising a book” is the same thing as physically walking up to you and hitting you proves the point that I made earlier—-theists have to be thin-skinned and overreact, because you have a need to scare people off of asking questions that have uncomfortable answers.

Comment #190: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  02:49 PM

It’s got nothing at all to do with nihilism or anything like that.

Exactly. It’s all about the cynicism. BIG difference.

Comment #191: Ken Cope  on  07/25  at  02:50 PM

OUCH.  Look, here’s the thing, Donohue is an ass.  I’m not a fan of that Domino’s pizza Ave-Maria founding guy either.  But if you look at the poll numbers on American Catholics, the majority of us are: 1) Democrats or progressive; 2) pro-choice; and 3) pro-contraception.

Yes, but no thanks to Catholicism.  Most of them go through a terrible, unnecessary, guilt-laden struggle to get there. Wouldn’t it be nicer if they came around to rational thinking unencumbered?

Comment #192: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  02:54 PM

My point is not “Well I don’t like Dawkins because he comes off as a douchebag, “but “I don’t really get Dawkins’ work because his outlook is so thoroughly opposite mine that we’re speaking completely different philosophical languages.  Thus I will generally spend my time on things that actually interest me (and am perfectly happy for those who don’t have this issue with Dawkins, or are on his wavelength, to continue in their Dawkins love)

Glad you clarified. My point still stands—sometimes to get to important observations you have to overcome both distaste for the author personally (although Dawkins comes off as a pretty decent guy in most interviews), stylistically, and for his over-arching worldview.

Not being able to get past the latter is less a flaw of “academic personality” than it is of “intellectual personality,” since one need not have gone to college to narrow one’s areas of interest (though it certainly helps). But as you say, no-one has the time to read (or consequently critique) everything out there.

I tend to agree with you regarding Dawkins’ misanthropy and cynicism, but I don’t see his worldview ending with gene-driven determinism (though it certainly informs it heavily). That he bothered to write The God Delusion indicates that he harbours some small hope for human intelligence and its ability to move beyond superstition.

Comment #193: Gracchus  on  07/25  at  02:55 PM

Which is ironic to me, when you consider that some of the finest minds in the history of science were quite religious.  Wrong in their belief in a God?  Okay, I can buy that.  Idiots?  No.

Of course it’s ridiculous to call those men “idiots” for being religious—they were products of their times, and we can’t judge their religiousity by modern standards. That William of Ockham was a monk doesn’t make him any less brilliant in laying foundation stones for the scientific method.

We can, however, judge our contemporaries by modern standards, and while “idiocy” is still too strong a term with which to tar a serious religious believer, in an age of materialism and science the term “delusion” is about right.

Comment #194: Gracchus  on  07/25  at  02:58 PM

I tend to agree with you regarding Dawkins’ misanthropy and cynicism

Cynicism can be really useful and even enjoyable sometimes. Misanthropy isn’t popular in a democratic age, but even it can have its uses.

Comment #195: atheist  on  07/25  at  03:03 PM

I strongly disagree that Dawkins is a misanthrope.  He struck me, in this book, as a kind person who attacks religion because he sees it as harmful to human beings, who he likes.  He wishes to reduce the suffering in the world, which strikes me as far from misanthropic.  He has a lot of enthusiasm for human beauty and potential that’s quashed by religion.

Comment #196: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  03:03 PM

I’m allowed not to find certain ideas or outlooks interesting.  It’s another of the unfortunate but really rather interesting “blips” I was talking about above.

I know what you mean opoponax. Sorry to go on so. I just feel like I should take up for cynicism when people talk against it.

Comment #197: atheist  on  07/25  at  03:07 PM

I know, Gracchus, but I’m an historian of science by training and I often feel compelled to point out - perhaps unnecessarily - that the history of the relationship between science and religion is a lot more complicated than the simple opposition between the two that we are sometimes told is the case.

Comment #198: Linnaeus  on  07/25  at  03:08 PM

Also, the selfish gene theory, as Dawkins reiterates over and over, had no bearing on our choices on whether or not our own lives have meaning.  If he candy-coated evolution to make it more palatable for people’s own views of their lives as inherently meaningful, he’d be lying, which is far more cynical than anything he’s accused of doing.  Being willing to tell the truth instead of pander is very not-cynical, which is why I find it amusing that people dismiss it as cynical. 

Personally, the realization that life has no inherent meaning or meaning bestowed by god was very freeing to me.  That’s why I detest religion, because it’s built on that very fear that the truth is too scary to look at.  Once you look at the truth, it’s not that bad at all.  It means that you can define your life for yourself, instead of according to the wishes of an imaginary friend.  How much better, in my opinion.

Comment #199: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/25  at  03:09 PM

(And the ‘undergraduate’ sideswipe? Oh, please.)

Pseudonymous, I am an undergrad, albeit one with more than the usual four years of experience under his belt. I was talking very specifically about undergrad philosophy majors - most of the ones I’ve met, at least at my university, are some of the most insufferable people I’ve ever had the misfortune of dealing with. There’s something about it that attracts the bullshit artists. Since graduate study in philosophy requires a functional, even exceptional intellect, I’ve found philosophy grads and professors to be far more pleasant as a group.

I want to talk more about some responses, because I think I’m coming across as far harsher on philosophy than I want to, but I’m at work now, so it’ll have to wait.

Comment #200: grolby  on  07/25  at  03:11 PM

this is the man who built his career on the concept that all life on earth exists purely as a bunch of extraneous crap created so that DNA can continue propagating itself.  Which, OK, if that’s what he believes, but, wow, if that’s not nihilism’s second cousin twice removed…

That you find that point of view depressing doesn’t make Dawkins nihilistic. He’s stating his conclusions; you’re the one deciding how they make you feel.

I can’t think of anything more nihilistic than deciding that the world is so empty and pointless that you need gods and superstitions and afterlives to make you feel better about it.

Comment #201: junk science  on  07/25  at  03:13 PM

I read “Delusion” a while back, and this is what I have to say about it, and some of the ham-fisted replies that have circulated.

As far as what is happening to PZ- sheesh.  I have written a letter of support for him to his university, and I hope others have as well.  Silencing dissent is a huge problem, and I for one take a very active stance against anyone, from any point of view, who thinks threats are an appropriate response to an idea.  What we really need is the reintroduction of the debating society as a flourishing and integral part of community life.  In a way, I think the blogosphere may be doing that.  People need to relearn the fine art of reasoned argument.  Note to freaky christianists maligning PZ: Ad hom attacks are NOT good arguments.

As you’ll note if you follow my link, the main weakness I see in “Delusion” is the fact that Dawkins really doesn’t limit his proposition well via clear definitions.  Part of the book is disproving god (the patriarchal, Christian god mostly), and part of it is an argument against religion.  These are really two different things, and in my opinion, should have been addressed seperately.  “Does god exist?” is really an academic argument, but “Is religion net beneficial?” has real-world impacts that I think need to be adressed independently of the validity/invalidity of the god hypothesis (and as others in this thread note, atheistic religions certianly deserve the same scrutiny on this score as theistic ones).

Comment #202: Neko Onna  on  07/25  at  03:15 PM

Cynicism can be really useful and even enjoyable sometimes.

You’re preaching to the converted (hehe).

Dawkins’ misanthropy, I think, is a combination of healthy cynicism and anger, and has very little to do with the concept of the selfish gene driving all. But like many misanthropes, his actions indicate that he’s a bit of a softy when it actually comes to dealing with people.

Comment #203: Gracchus  on  07/25  at  03:15 PM

Artists make the world a more interesting and fun place to live, and it would be silly to deny that they make our lives better. But they do so using the tools and free time given to them by others. And grolby’s point is worth repeating (unfortunately I didn’t see her post before I commented). It really does seem like humanities people are trying to grab all the credit for themselves. The comparison another commenter used with coaches and athletes is particularly offensive. As though humanities people do all the real thinking and we scientists are just executing their master plan. That’s not how it works at all. Basically what actually happens is scientists do all the work and then some douchey philosopher comes along and says “The world is inhabited by zombies, but they all act like regular people! How can your science help us with this problem?”. Which is why philosophy is the intellectual equivalent of banging your head against a wall until it is a bloody stump.

Comment #204: Entomologista  on  07/25  at  03:17 PM

I know, Gracchus, but I’m an historian of science by training and I often feel compelled to point out - perhaps unnecessarily - that the history of the relationship between science and religion is a lot more complicated than the simple opposition between the two that we are sometimes told is the case.

Historian by training myself, here. And I don’t think it’s unneccessary to point out what you did. The medieval period wasn’t quite as scientifically benighted as the Renaissance scholars and their successors made it out to be.

Comment #205: Gracchus  on  07/25  at  03:21 PM

Amanda,

“Yes, but no thanks to Catholicism.  Most of them go through a terrible, unnecessary, guilt-laden struggle to get there. Wouldn’t it be nicer if they came around to rational thinking unencumbered?”

I think my own attachment to rational thinking is in part thanks to Catholicism.  It is one of your more cerebral religions.  I think that my Catholic upbringing gave me the tools to *think* about certain philosophical ideas (although it was in the context of religion).  The priests I knew were not of the “because I said so” variety, some of them rejected hell, and floated those ideas to us, but they did not expect us to just accept what they said.

But I will not deny the guilt, and I will not deny that just about EVERYTHING the church has to say about human sexuality is completely wrong.  I think it was positive for me to struggle with my religious beliefs, but that doesn’t mean I think you or anyone else should come and be Catholic—so you can have the joy of learning and then rejecting church teachings. 

Just that you’ve seen, and been treated horribly by the worst of our ilk and, in the words of Monty Python “I didn’t vote for ‘im!”

In short, viva liberation theology, just war theory, and a deep suspicion of capitalism, and maybe I’ll start praying for Donohue not to be a douche.  Or to be ignored.

Comment #206: Ismone  on  07/25  at  03:23 PM

As someone who was raised Catholic myself and now is decidedly non-Catholic, I probably have as much opinion about this as anyone here.

But I just got back from reading (OK, skimming) PZ’s comments thread from “The Great Desecration” post Amanda linked in the update, and all I can say is that Chris Bell wins.  Well done sir!

Hint: comment #2353.

Comment #207: Quicksand  on  07/25  at  03:37 PM

People confuse the Midieval age with the Dark Ages…

The Dark Ages…were indeed dark in Europe.  Even the Midieval and Rennaisance era, by the standards of what was going on in many other parts of the world wasn’t so especially hot either, especially for the average peon.

And it’s interesting how people are claiming that the humanities guys are trying to take all the credit.

Look, it’s reeeeeeal simple.  Dawkins is a gloryhound with a less than full understanding of what he’s talking about.

An aside, the concept of the selfish gene has been quite effectively attacked from various angles.  Not saying that it’s disproven, but that it’s just a bit more complex than what Dawkins initially said.

Comment #208: shah8  on  07/25  at  03:42 PM

Don’t you think though, that it’s overdone to claim that scientists and engineers have built the entire world?

No.

Comment #209: Zifnab25  on  07/25  at  03:56 PM

All that said, the humanities have their place in so far as they are an excellent means of presenting hypotheticals.  Postulating whether we are merely brains in jars or incredibly sexy capsules for DNA gives us the motivation to study brains, jars, DNA, and sexiness.

Philosophy is the cradle of science, in that regard.

But the humanities don’t go very far beyond that nascent stage.  Writing a book on the Theory of The Existence of a Soul gives a problem for your biologist to tackle and a series of problems to solve, prove, or disprove.  But simply saying, “I think there exists a soul” doesn’t do much with the field of research beyond giving it a name and a bucket to live in.

Logic is perhaps the strongest of the humanities and that is because it is literally an exercise in how to best think.  But even then, that field is quickly cannibalized by mathematics and your analysis turned into abstracts and proofs that can be more adroitly handled.

So its not that the humanities are useless.  They simply fail to act on the ideas that they generate.  And that makes the field seem rather hollow and functionless until you start asking where all your grand mechanical and scientific utilities came from.

Comment #210: Zifnab25  on  07/25  at  04:06 PM

I mentioned the quantum mechanics thing because the *design of the experiment* was almost completely philosophical, much as Maxwell’s Demon was a philosophical construct in understanding thermodynamics.

Nothing could be farther from the truth, Shah. Both the Black Body Problem and the Two-Slit Experiment, which formed the basis of what would become quantum theory, were real live experiments, not gedanken. They really did measure the radiation of heated black bodies, and really did emit photons and electrons through slits.

I plead guilty on “Kant’s inductive fallacy”, I actually meant Hume but for some reason got them confused.

Ugh, where do I start but by saying that just about the only thing that matters in philosophy is internal consistency. 

That’s my fucking point, Shah8. There’s no such thing as a “right” or “wrong” argument in philosophy, only arguments that are well-formed or not. Assuming you even subscribe to that model, which in philosophy is entirely optional (unlike mathematics, where well-formed proofs are required.)

There’s no rigor in the field whatsoever, which is why it can’t be a source of knowledge. With no rigor it’s no better than imagination.

I agree with the latter links, mostly in the sense that Dawkins, if he knew what he was about, could have easily smacked Quinn around the ring, but instead had to play defense…

It reads to me like Quinn completely hung himself.

Also, coaching and training and scouting and sports nutrition is irrelevant to the actual performance of athletes.

That’s a remarkably inept analogy that betrays your complete ignorance of the scientific community.

Comment #211: Chet  on  07/25  at  04:16 PM

Don’t you think though, that it’s overdone to claim that scientists and engineers have built the entire world?

No.

Ah. I do.

The world was here for aeons before there were people.

Then, people were living on the world for millions of years with nothing like a scientist or engineer.

You had engineers with the Sumerians and Egyptians. Arguably scientists.

So I think we can think science is awesome and still stop shy of deifying scientists and engineers. Maybe you can say civilization requires engineers.

Comment #212: atheist  on  07/25  at  04:21 PM

So its not that the humanities are useless.  They simply fail to act on the ideas that they generate.

Really? Much of the humanities are about answering questions about how we should live and who we are. I love science and engineering as much as the next guy, but fields such as ethics and an understanding of human nature and understanding our place in the world in the context of history and what our goals should be are not issues covered by science. And those are the very ideas generated that people act on.

start asking where all your grand mechanical and scientific utilities came from.

Trust me, I’m totally into the engineering love being generated here, but the truth is that a lot of engineering achievements came about because someone asked engineers to do something. Engineers don’t normally bequeath their bounty upon the populace. In most cases, someone wants something and proposes it to engineers who do the dirty work to figure out how to solve the problem.

Comment #213: Tyro  on  07/25  at  04:22 PM

Buddhism has too much woo to be considered a philosophy, but I tend to think that Confucianism was only called a “religion” because “philosophy” hadn’t evolved enough to label it as such.  Buddhism is technically atheistic, but let’s not play around.  It’s still woo-based.

Depends on how Confucianism was practiced in different geographic regions, time periods, and social classes.  Among the scholar-gentry ruling elite, it was more of a philosophy with some religious overtones such as the “Mandate of Heaven” concept.  From what I’ve gathered from researching its practice among this set, it seems most of this elite practiced it more as a philosophy and got their religious/supernatural inclinations fulfilled through believing in other religions such as Buddhism, Taoism, and a wide variety of Chinese folk religions where there was more concern with the supernatural and its role in the ordering of the universe.  For this set, Confucianism was more an ethical philosophy about how to conduct oneself and interact with others in the society at large. 

Many early Westerners in China also confused the meaning of ancestor worship by imparting their own Christian-based understandings of worship onto this Confucianist practice.  Though there were some Chinese who in mixing Confucianism with elements from other prevailing religions did believe that “worshiping” their ancestral halls would supernaturally convey some sort of protection/good tidings….there were many…especially among those in the scholar-gentry class who tended to understand this simply as paying appropriate respects/commemoration of their dead ancestors not too far removed from how Westerners, whether religious or otherwise, perceive the purpose of paying visits to the gravesites of their deceased relatives and friends.

Comment #214: exholt  on  07/25  at  04:31 PM

The world was here for aeons before there were people.

Then, people were living on the world for millions of years with nothing like a scientist or engineer.

Ok, maybe we’re talking past each other here.  Science and engineering have built the entire human world.  I’m certainly not claiming that we wouldn’t have air or corn or the moon without scientists.

But if you want fire or mixed metals or the wheel, don’t go knocking on the door of the humanities major.

Comment #215: Zifnab25  on  07/25  at  04:34 PM

I love science and engineering as much as the next guy, but fields such as ethics and an understanding of human nature and understanding our place in the world in the context of history and what our goals should be are not issues covered by science.

Really?  Because I was under the impression that the field that covers human nature was a branch of psychology, and that is certainly a scientific - quantifiable, testable, studyable - endeavor.

Then you need to ask yourself why we have ethics?  Is it merely to give us warm fuzzy feelings about ourselves, or is it to build a more functional and economical society?  Sociology, history, and civil engineering are all quite scientific.  They have definitive goals that require degrees of precision.  Dealing with a strictly humanitarian approach to topics such as torture or welfare or traffic distribution gives you the Bush Administration - where you cling to ideals and dogma rather than crunching the numbers and getting valid results. 

Without numbers under your feet, the moral compass gets blown by the popular wind, and you get a bunch of Karl Roves telling people that water boarding is just fine because 9/11, Jack Bauer, America never does anything wrong.  The unscientific approach to ethics and our place in the world breeds bullshit.  The “action” it produces only works depending on how much faith you want to invest.  The only truly functional aspect of the humanities is the concept of cynicism, which you can use as a shield against all the other double-edged swords that fact less, evidence less, thinking gets you.

If you want questions, go to a humanitarian.  If you want answers, go to a scientist.

Comment #216: Zifnab25  on  07/25  at  04:46 PM

No. We had fire, mixed metals, and wheels pre-scientists, dude.

Comment #217: atheist  on  07/25  at  04:54 PM

but fields such as ethics and an understanding of human nature and understanding our place in the world in the context of history and what our goals should be are not issues covered by science.

I think you’ll find that ethics, human “nature”, and understanding the context of history are, in fact, questions that very nicely submit themselves to scientific, that is to say evidence-based, analysis.

Religion is what you get when you try to do ethics without evidence, which is why, religiously, the only ethical sex education is abstinence-only. For instance.

I’m certainly not claiming that we wouldn’t have air or corn or the moon without scientists.

Minor nitpick - we actually wouldn’t have corn without the Mexican genetic engineers who created it 7500 years ago.

Comment #218: Chet  on  07/25  at  04:55 PM

Mexican genetic engineers who created it 7500 years ago.

Right… The ancient Mayans weren’t genetic engineers, Chet, except in the broadest possible sense. They were people who bred their crops to get a better yield.

Comment #219: atheist  on  07/25  at  05:01 PM

Basically what actually happens is scientists do all the work and then some douchey philosopher comes along and says “The world is inhabited by zombies, but they all act like regular people! How can your science help us with this problem?”. Which is why philosophy is the intellectual equivalent of banging your head against a wall until it is a bloody stump.

Thank you, David Chalmers, for nothing. Any time you see anybody twittering on about P-zombies or qualia, you can pretty safely tune them out. A notable philosophy casualty is brilliant mathematician and physicist Sir Roger Penrose, who hooked up with a newage Santa Fe salon anesthesiologist and decided that in order to attack the notion that machines could ever be conscious (artificial intelligence) he had to place consciousness outside the brain, in the land of quantum woo and platonist ideals, intersecting with the brain via interactions with microtubules (which are components of every cell in the body, not just those found in the brain). Mysterians like him, Hofstadter and Dennett don’t.

While philosophy as a discipline is quite useful for what John Wilkins calls “conceptual tidying up” it is often relied upon in defense of theism and dualism, to attack physicalists, and in the fighting of fierce turf wars over cognition.

Comment #220: Ken Cope  on  07/25  at  05:01 PM

I told myself I wouldn’t get into this, but I can’t help it.  Apologies for the continued thread drift:

Sociology, history, and civil engineering are all quite scientific.  They have definitive goals that require degrees of precision.

That’s an interesting perspective, because when I get into discussions of “humanities” vs. “sciences” what I do (history) tends to get classified as among the humanities.  Though there’s definitely an interpretive element to history that’s necessarily subjective, history is strongly evidence-based.  Is that why you make this statement here?  I’m not disagreeing, just wondering.

Re:  work.  While it’s true that someone like me doesn’t produce the same kind of knowledge that a scientist does, I would say that it has both intrinsic, for-the-sake-of value, and “applied” value in terms of learning lessons about the past and how that may (or may not) be useful for the present.

I would be careful of the claim that “scientists do (all) the work that gives people time to do the things that they do”, because while that has some merit to it, we should recognize that the professional scientist (and engineer) is a relatively recent phenomenon; you didn’t see people paid to do science for a living in any significant numbers until well into the nineteenth century.  Prior to that, only a relative few thought for pay, others were wealthy enough to do science full time and not work, and still others did it as an avocation alongside what they did to support themselves.  Really, the key is surplus food production; when not everyone has to be concerned with subsistence farming, they have time to do other things:  learn trades (the crafts and trades are rather important in the history of science, btw), get higher education, etc.

Comment #221: Linnaeus  on  07/25  at  05:11 PM

People,
the “meme” meme is a dangerous meme, and must be stomped out.

Really. I’ve heard otherwise freedom-loving types use “meme” theory in an attempt to justify the quarantine of people with the “daaaangerous” economic or social ideas.  (and yeah, the person doing it was later confirmed to be bugfuck crazy, but still)

Just the idea that an idea should be treated like an infectious organism INVITES using extreme public-health type measures to stem a pandemic.  Let’s not go down that road, ever.

Meme delenda est.

Comment #222: Snarki, child of Loki  on  07/25  at  05:12 PM

Zifnab, you’re going down a bad path here. It will get to the point to wherever anyone discusses the human condition, and what that means to us, it will be classified by you as “science,” and we will be caught in a loop.

Literature, philosophy, and history are all studies of human condition and seek to understand questions about how we should live and what we should do and how people think and feel. These fields are normally classed under the category “humanities.” To call all forms of inquiry and study to get a better understanding “science” makes the term “science” no longer useful.

Comment #223: Tyro  on  07/25  at  05:23 PM

Sociology, history, and civil engineering are all quite scientific.  They have definitive goals that require degrees of precision.

Each academic field and subfield has their own standards and acceptable professional practices/methods.  I would be very surprised if Philosophy is one of the exceptions as that would not only be news to some philosophy grad students I know….but also a few math and computer science grad students and a CS prof who all double-majored in Philosophy and math/CS.  Interestingly enough, several CS/math majors and that CS prof all said that they felt Philosophy was more rigorous and demanding than their undergrad or even grad studies in CS/math. 

Without numbers under your feet, the moral compass gets blown by the popular wind, and you get a bunch of Karl Roves telling people that water boarding is just fine because 9/11, Jack Bauer, America never does anything wrong.

While using quantitative analysis to understand various phenomena has its place….including the humanities and social sciences….it can be taken too far to the point that uncritical use of numbers and quantitative analysis becomes the be-all and end-all of social science/humanities analysis/research at the expense of qualitative analysis. 

This has been a common complaint I keep hearing from many non-neo-liberal econ and poli-sci grad students regarding the uncritical and overapplication of rational choice theory in their fields…especially to concepts, problems, and issues that are extremely difficult/impossible to quantify.  According to them, this overemphasis/glorification of Rational Choice theory and quantitative analysis is one reason why their fields have ended up grossly oversimplifying various concepts, issues, and problems in their respective fields over the last few decades.

Comment #224: exholt  on  07/25  at  05:27 PM

They were people who bred their crops to get a better yield.

Just to nit pick, plant breeding is a science. As in, there are specific programs at universities to train plant breeders. They have to know things like plant pathology, genetics (traditional and molecular), entomology, plant physiology, and so on. Like a lot of things, techniques have evolved and knowledge has been gained over 10,000 years. But the concept, imparting resistance and agronomic qualities, remains the same.

Comment #225: Entomologista  on  07/25  at  05:36 PM

To call all forms of inquiry and study to get a better understanding “science” makes the term “science” no longer useful.

Tyro

Not to mention, calling some caveman or woman blowing on a red ember from a lightning-struck tree a scientist, or calling Mayans who crossbreed corn engineers, seems to me to be a stretch.

Comment #226: atheist  on  07/25  at  05:37 PM

Right… The ancient Mayans weren’t genetic engineers, Chet, except in the broadest possible sense. They were people who bred their crops to get a better yield.

That’s a form of genetic engineering. (Which makes complaints about GM corn more than just a little ridiculous.)

Selective breeding, by humans, is genetic engineering.

Comment #227: Chet  on  07/25  at  05:40 PM

Why are people conflating humanities with philosophy? Philosophy means something more than “everything not involving decimals.”

Comment #228: Margalis  on  07/25  at  05:41 PM

Just to nit pick, plant breeding is a science.

Entomologia:

Yes, we have scientists nowadays who breed plants. And they know about plant pathology, entomology, etc. etc.

However, in ages past, you didn’t have plant breeding scientists. You had farmers who lived their entire lives raising corn, and who had to learn about plant diseases, and who certainly crossbred strains of corn or grain. But I don’t know that it was the scientific method that led them so much as it was their intelligence, their instincts, their culture, and lots of blind luck.

Comment #229: atheist  on  07/25  at  05:47 PM

To call all forms of inquiry and study to get a better understanding “science” makes the term “science” no longer useful.

All forms of evidence-based inquiry and reality-based study are science, or at the very least “empiricism”, and the superiority of empiricism is what we’re trying to defend, here.

There’s basically two kinds of knowledge - that which you can distinguish from imagination, by means of comparison with the real world, and that which you cannot so distinguish. Supernaturalism, religion, philosophy, economics - it all belongs to the second category.

Not to mention, calling some caveman or woman blowing on a red ember from a lightning-struck tree a scientist, or calling Mayans who crossbreed corn engineers, seems to me to be a stretch.

I didn’t call them “engineers”, I called them “genetic engineers”, because they used techniques from genetic engineering - like selective breeding and hybridization - to alter the genetics of an organism.

It’s hard to argue that’s not genetic engineering just because they did it before we could see what a gene was.

Comment #230: Chet  on  07/25  at  05:49 PM

Selective breeding, by humans, is genetic engineering.

This retroactive redefinition of all productive human activity into a form of science is too tendentious for me.

Comment #231: atheist  on  07/25  at  05:51 PM

But I don’t know that it was the scientific method that led them so much as it was their intelligence, their instincts, their culture, and lots of blind luck.

Of course it was empiricism. They performed the crossbreed, made observations of it, collected the results of the crop, and shared them with the community. They didn’t act at random, but in calculated ways to create a new organism to suit their purpose.

Just because they were farmers doesn’t mean they couldn’t be doing evidence-based research, though they may not have construed it in those terms. But your criticism here betrays an advanced ignorance of the role blind luck, intelligence, and instinct have played in the history of science.

Comment #232: Chet  on  07/25  at  05:52 PM

This retroactive redefinition of all productive human activity into a form of science is too tendentious for me.

Just the evidence-based stuff.

What, it’s not science if there’s no test tubes around? Don’t be an idiot. Science isn’t just something that elites do in the lab; it’s a way of thinking and acting in the universe that you can employ on your own.

A great deal of scientific advancement has been done by people with only an amateur science education. Darwin’s degree was in theology (that is to say, completely useless.) The idea of actually testing your ideas against reality was hardly born with Francis Bacon.

Comment #233: Chet  on  07/25  at  05:55 PM

Chet, so what’s “humanities,” then? Everything that is not grounded in evidence of human experience? History is no longer part of “the humanities”?

Comment #234: Tyro  on  07/25  at  06:08 PM

Zifnab, you’re going down a bad path here. It will get to the point to wherever anyone discusses the human condition, and what that means to us, it will be classified by you as “science,” and we will be caught in a loop.

Literature, philosophy, and history are all studies of human condition and seek to understand questions about how we should live and what we should do and how people think and feel. These fields are normally classed under the category “humanities.” To call all forms of inquiry and study to get a better understanding “science” makes the term “science” no longer useful.

Science is is the effort to discover, understand, or to understand better, how the physical world works, with observable physical evidence as the basis of that understanding. It is done through observation of natural phenomena, and/or through experimentation that tries to simulate natural phenomena under controlled conditions.

The difference between classical science and the humanities rests in the reliance of evidence.

In that sense, the study of political history can involve a discussion of whether or not a particular war was necessary.  The study of ethics may involve a discussion on how people of different genders and sexualities should be treated in the workplace.

But the science of history - the carbon dating of cave paint drawings, the authentication of documents, the verification of certain quotes to certain famous persons - is based on quantifiable evidence that can be collected and tested to conclude a certain fact.  There’s no room to argue that the Declaration of Independence was signed on July 4th, 1776 even if you can argue till you’re blue in the face over whether it was a wise political move or an ethical decision.

Comment #235: Zifnab25  on  07/25  at  06:14 PM

My contribution to this little “science vs. humanities” debate is from one of my favourite undergrad profs, a wry psychobiologist, who noted that the differences between the various disciplines we’re discussing could be generally attributed to their tolerances for ambiguity.

Other than that, my only comment is: if you’ve ever wondered why, despite a mountain of evidence in our favour, the reality-based community just can’t seem to gain traction against religious fantasists (or the GOP for that matter), you now have your answer.

Comment #236: Gracchus  on  07/25  at  06:19 PM

Basically what actually happens is scientists do all the work and then some douchey philosopher comes along and says “The world is inhabited by zombies, but they all act like regular people! How can your science help us with this problem?”. Which is why philosophy is the intellectual equivalent of banging your head against a wall until it is a bloody stump.

Ok, that’s the extreme and somewhat ridiculous.

What humanities students may do is look up at the sky and say, “What are all those pretty lights?”  Then they come up with various theories and postulates - maybe they are gods, maybe they are birds, maybe they are pin-holes in the roof of the sky with the sun flashing through it, maybe they are tiny balls of fire, etc etc - and they debate the various merits of each theory.

But the moment a natural philosopher starts measuring pulling out a telescope or measuring incandescence he’s no longer a humanitarian philosopher.  He’s just committed Astronomy.

Comment #237: Zifnab25  on  07/25  at  06:21 PM

Chet, so what’s “humanities,” then? Everything that is not grounded in evidence of human experience? History is no longer part of “the humanities”?

Interestingly enough, there was much argument among my fellow history major classmates in undergrad and among history grad students I know about whether history falls into “humanities”, “social sciences”, or some sort of mixture of the two.  I’ve even met a few more literary leaning history majors who felt the field can be considered a form of “Art”.  Though most tend to lean more towards the humanities, I am of the belief that it can be a varied combination of the three depending on which sub-field and how one goes about researching, analyzing, and otherwise “doing history”. 

Interestingly enough, I have yet to meet any history major/historian who would consider the field of history to be necessarily “scientific”.  I also encountered far too many math/natural/technical science grad students/Phd graduates who would take great umbrage at anyone who dared associate a field as “soft” as history with what they considered the intellectually elite/rigorous science fields.

Comment #238: exholt  on  07/25  at  06:32 PM

In that sense, the study of political history can involve a discussion of whether or not a particular war was necessary.  The study of ethics may involve a discussion on how people of different genders and sexualities should be treated in the workplace.

I would agree. But the precise point of studying and discussing these things is to produce ideas that can be acted on… whereas you claimed that the humanities “simply fail to act on the ideas that they generate.” Those who study political history and study ethics also contain people who are going to study and understand these things and put those ideas into action.

Comment #239: Tyro  on  07/25  at  06:42 PM

Ok, that’s the extreme and somewhat ridiculous.

Yes, it’s what David Chalmers does with his tenure.

Comment #240: Ken Cope  on  07/25  at  07:32 PM

But the precise point of studying and discussing these things is to produce ideas that can be acted on… whereas you claimed that the humanities “simply fail to act on the ideas that they generate.” Those who study political history and study ethics also contain people who are going to study and understand these things and put those ideas into action.

Fair enough.  I’m wrong on that one.

Comment #241: Zifnab25  on  07/25  at  09:34 PM

Chet, so what’s “humanities,” then?

What does it matter? If you think I’m the one who tried to draw a bright line between the humanities and the sciences, you’re deeply mistaken.

My impression, coming from a humanities family, is that the “humanities” are the fields which focus on the study and criticism of human artistic works. What does that have to do with anything?

Comment #242: Chet  on  07/25  at  09:50 PM

Sometimes I intentionally swerve into hyperbole in defending their speech merely because I can’t stand the mealy-mouthed folks who passive-aggressively malign them even while claiming to respect their rights. Such people - those ones who “defend the poor, sick dears” - are no better than the concern trolls on PZ’s blog claiming they’ll pray for his soul.

I see. So you’d prefer that those of us (myself included) who believe the WBC are mentally ill should not defend their right of free speech. Funny, I can’t imagine how this would help matters. But it sure makes you feel better about yourself to remind yourself how you really respect the WBC and thank God for them. That makes your defense of their rights genuine and valuable, whereas my defense of their rights is worthless and mealy-mouthed. Gee, thanks.

Anyway, The Devil’s Advocate, I asked you this before and received no answer. Have you ever gotten up off your ass and physically joined a counterprotest against the WBC? Or are you all talk?

Comment #243: Grammar RWA  on  07/25  at  09:51 PM

Hrm, ambiguous question there at the end. I mean, “what does the definition of ‘humanities’ have to do with my point”, not “what do the humanities have to do with anything?”

Comment #244: Chet  on  07/25  at  09:54 PM

Interestingly enough, I have yet to meet any history major/historian who would consider the field of history to be necessarily “scientific”.

Meet my partner, it’s part of the topic of his PHD.

I also encountered far too many math/natural/technical science grad students/Phd graduates who would take great umbrage at anyone who dared associate a field as “soft” as history with what they considered the intellectually elite/rigorous science fields.

Yeah but every level of science has people who think that sciences on the “softer” side of their own aren’t as rigorous. Snobbery isn’t much of an argument.

Comment #245: Annamal  on  07/26  at  12:28 AM

“Won’t somebody PLEASE think of the cracker!”

Comment #246: LanceThruster  on  07/26  at  12:48 AM

I have an incredibly Googlable friend who just happens to be a devout atheist.

He’s superior to me in every way.  He is in fact superior, physically, intellectually, emotionally, and yes, spiritually (he knows his theology, by both natural interest and his theological background) relative to anyone I’ve ever known personally.  He walks his own talk, and is one of the most compassionate people I’ve ever met.  His love is genuine. 

He’s one of those disgusting people who excels in a big way at everything he does.  In a verifiable way.

Except about this.  I get a huge kick out of reminding him that “devout” atheism is just as stupid as an assuredly theist point of view.  Perhaps the thing that differs most between theists and atheists, at least in his case, is that he laughs and concedes I have a point.

I’m one of those crazies who just can’t claim to know about what happens when I die, but if I had to bet on it, I would say that death is “lights out,” and that all the variations of soul and afterlife and rebirth and karma and all of it is mostly just a matter of the people we touch, and how hard we touch them.  Viewed that way, it is pretty clear to me that we live on.

It just seems to me that all religion, including atheism, flows from just that.

And, as I am fond of saying, “Your guess is just as good as mine.”

Comment #247: John O  on  07/26  at  01:05 AM

Anyway, The Devil’s Advocate, I asked you this before and received no answer. Have you ever gotten up off your ass and physically joined a counterprotest against the WBC? Or are you all talk?

Me-owwww, kitty cat. You know, I really don’t think it would matter what I say to you. Your answer would always be couched in such a way as to make me the unmitigated bad guy. If only I were to bow to your intellectual superiority, then you’d stop being such a condescending twit. smile

As for joining counter-protests, if there were any in my neck of the woods, you can be assured of my showing. There haven’t been, so I merely content myself with bitch-slapping other fundies - look back on my post to Lisa McDonald - for their unvarnished hatred of gays.

Comment #248: The Devil's Advocate  on  07/26  at  01:38 AM

Yeah but every level of science has people who think that sciences on the “softer” side of their own aren’t as rigorous. Snobbery isn’t much of an argument.

Don’t mean to imply that I agreed with them as I felt their opinion was complete BS. 

It does get tiresome and wearying at times to keep arguing with them about the merits of my academic field of interest when nearly every science grad student/PhD graduate I’ve met with a handful of exceptions tend to hold such an elitist view privileging their “hard” science fields over “softer” fields such as the social sciences, humanities…or *shudder* the arts.  This also means they tended to view anyone in such “softer” fields are of inferior intelligence due to their automatic assumption that anyone in such “soft” fields are there because they didn’t have what it takes to compete in the “real” intellectually rigorous hard science fields. 

Made it really awkward for them later when they had serious computer problems, needed my help in solving them, and were embarrassed upon the discovery that the problems were mostly of the PEBKAC variety.

Comment #249: exholt  on  07/26  at  01:39 AM

I see. So you’d prefer that those of us (myself included) who believe the WBC are mentally ill should not defend their right of free speech.

If you – and I mean “you” in a general sense, and not Grammar RWA specifically – are   merely going cover your own ass through the addition of caveats and apologies for your POV when defending the WBC’s rights, then yes, I would much prefer that you shut your pie-hole than “help” them any further. Like I said before, it’s concern trolling of the worst sort.

Funny, I can’t imagine how this would help matters.

It gets the haters to speak in more than just grunts and monosyllables.

You should try playing the Devil’s Advocate sometimes, G; no one knows what you really think, and it’s oh so much fun to see them guess wrong over and over again.

But it sure makes you feel better about yourself to remind yourself how you really respect the WBC and thank God for them.

Ohh, more psychoanalysis from the peanut gallery. First it’s Stockholm Syndrome, then it’s self-esteem building. What next, Grammar?

At any rate, it’s hard to learn as much about those people as I have without developing a certain amount of respect for them as individuals, particularly since they’re entirely different when off the picket line. It’s hard not to be thankful for their contribution when I look at the number of free-speech related court cases they’ve fought and won – cases that will have ramifications for people well outside of that little fringe movement.

That makes your defense of their rights genuine and valuable, whereas my defense of their rights is worthless and mealy-mouthed. Gee, thanks.

Your defense wasn’t filled with caveats and apologies. It wasn’t filled with an assload of “I hate them, but…” statements – so no, as a matter of fact I don’t think it was mealy mouthed and worthless. I’ve merely chosen to take a different tack in defending them.

Maybe you should have read the first link I left for you.

Comment #250: The Devil's Advocate  on  07/26  at  01:59 AM

Everybody’s wonderin’ what and where they all came from.
Everybody’s worryin’ ‘bout where they’re gonna go when the whole thing’s done.
But no one knows for certain and so it’s all the same to me.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.

Some say once you’re gone you’re gone forever, and some say you’re gonna come back.
Some say you rest in the arms of the Saviour if in sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they’re comin’ back in a garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.

Everybody’s wonderin’ what and where they all came from.
Everybody’s worryin’ ‘bout where they’re gonna go when the whole thing’s done.
But no one knows for certain and so it’s all the same to me.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.

Some say they’re goin’ to a place called Glory and I ain’t saying it ain’t a fact.
But I’ve heard that I’m on the road to purgatory and I don’t like the sound of that.
Well, I believe in love and I live my life accordingly.
But I choose to let the mystery be.

Everybody’s wonderin’ what and where they all came from.
Everybody’s worryin’ ‘bout where they’re gonna go when the whole thing’s done.
But no one knows for certain and so it’s all the same to me.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.

Infamous Angel [1993]  Iris Dement - Let the Mystery Be

Comment #251: LanceThruster  on  07/26  at  02:25 AM

I get a huge kick out of reminding him that “devout” atheism is just as stupid as an assuredly theist point of view.

Hoo boy, never heard that one before!

Jesus. Maybe the reason he laughs is because he’s laughing at you.

Comment #252: Chet  on  07/26  at  02:56 AM

Ah, Chet, meaning it is you, and only you, that can tell me what happens when we die?

He’s an old pal, and as such laughs at me with no worries.

And just for the record, if I had to bet the farm, I’m on his side.  “Lights out.”  I just plain can’t say for sure.

Now, if there IS a god, it is pretty clear to me that:

He/She/It doesn’t sweat the details, evidenced by bad things happening to good people.  As best I can tell, since the beginning of time.

He/She/It meant us to use our friggin’ noggins, Reason being what separates us from the rest of His/Her/Its creatures.

He/She/It didn’t intend us to spend so much time wondering about Him/Her/It.  I mean, an almighty, omniscient deity could pretty much end the argument once and for all, no?

So I tend to watch it all detached from the intellectual debates.  Not to say I don’t enjoy them…just that it is all a form of shooting in the dark.

Comment #253: John O  on  07/26  at  07:48 AM

Me-owwww, kitty cat. You know, I really don’t think it would matter what I say to you. Your answer would always be couched in such a way as to make me the unmitigated bad guy. If only I were to bow to your intellectual superiority, then you’d stop being such a condescending twit.

That’s the very same sort of psychoanalysis that you protest against a few paragraphs later. I don’t mind, because it’s inevitable for us apes to speculate on others’ intentions and state of mind. But it’s amusing that you didn’t notice your own hypocrisy.

The truth is, if you did stand in solidarity with the WBC’s victims, I’d have to concede that you’d be doing more good than harm. No matter what I think about your delusions (God is not talking to you, by the way; the decision to take up this crusade came entirely from your own good conscience), actions speak louder than words.

Yes, I’m condescending. And rude. And nosy. And often a hypocrite! And many other annoying things, some of which I’m not proud of, some of which I couldn’t care less about. But your statement, that I want to find the worst in you, takes me off guard. If I’ve given you the impression that I don’t like or respect you, Ms. Martin, I’m sorry. I do. It takes some courage (not much, but more than most people have) to speak up in defense of horrible speech that you disagree with. There’s a spark of Voltaire in you. And it’s hard not to notice your good intentions. I’ve usually appreciated our exchanges, and I’m not ashamed to admit I was disappointed when you forgot to return after leaving me your fine compliment: “That is a genuinely thought-provoking post, and I fully intend to respond.”

As for joining counter-protests, if there were any in my neck of the woods, you can be assured of my showing. There haven’t been,

Really. So WBC has never come anywhere near Edmonton or Calgary? I doubt that very much, since on godhatescanada.com they complain that “In Albert, WBC members were ordered by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police not to carry ‘God Hates Fags’ signs on pain of arrest and prosecution.” Given their need for attention, I don’t think they were talking about the little farming village of Albert, Manitoba.

Shall we interpret you as saying that WBC has come to your neck of the woods but there were no counterprotests for you to join? That sounds unlikely, but maybe most Canadians just couldn’t be bothered to show up. That doesn’t make your inaction any less immoral, though. When they came to your area, you should have organized the counterprotest. And if no one else showed, you should have counterprotested alone.

At any rate, it’s hard to learn as much about those people as I have without developing a certain amount of respect for them as individuals,

Really, it’s not that hard. You just have to remember that they hate me and everyone like me, when we did nothing to them. Hey, did you forget that they look forward to us burning in hell for all eternity? Or do you just not care? It’s got to be one of those two.

particularly since they’re entirely different when off the picket line.

So they’re hypocrites and you find that something to respect. Huh.

It’s hard not to be thankful for their contribution when I look at the number of free-speech related court cases they’ve fought and won – cases that will have ramifications for people well outside of that little fringe movement.

They WBC is completely incidental to the results of those cases. The laws they get overturned are laws that were enacted to target them. If the WBC didn’t exist, those laws wouldn’t exist, so this is a zero-sum game. If another group acted similarly, but for racism or whatever instead of homophobia, they’d prompt similar laws from anti-constitutional legislators, and those groups would fight them in court. The WBC has contributed nothing to freedom that would not have existed without them. But they’d never bother to fight for another group’s rights. The ACLU does, though. Give credit to the ACLU, who fight these kinds of cases for altruistic instead of selfish reasons. Your praise of the WBC is entirely misdirected. It’s no different than being thankful for the American Nazi Party in Skokie. Come on, TDA, say you’re thankful for the Nazis. If you can’t bring yourself to do it, then recognize and unravel your hypocrisy.

Comment #254: Grammar RWA  on  07/26  at  04:05 PM

Your defense wasn’t filled with caveats and apologies. It wasn’t filled with an assload of “I hate them, but…” statements – so no, as a matter of fact I don’t think it was mealy mouthed and worthless.

Oh for fuck’s sake. Of course I hate their fucking guts. Everyone in the world except you does. I didn’t think it was necessary to preface every statement with “although they are evil people who should have been aborted in the womb,” because it goes without saying. I’m alarmed that I’ve been so wildly misunderstood! In the future, before I speak up for their First Amendment rights, I’ll be sure to explicitly point out that the world will be a better place when every single member of the WBC is dead in the ground, and I hope Fred develops Alzheimer’s and is found sucking cocks in a public restroom. I guess I’m indebted to you for helping me clarify my words.

See, it doesn’t do much good to champion their free speech while you simultaneously wax poetic about how you thank God for all their good work, respect their sincerity, how wonderful are their families, how we should all aspire to be like them (and all just in your three most recent posts). You used to have a respectable gig. What you’re doing now is very similar to defending only popular speech. In your eyes, these are good people with bad ideas. Well, news flash: nearly everyone in the West is already reconciled to the notion that we should defend the rights of good people who happen to have bad ideas. You’re doing nothing provocative or revolutionary by reiterating what everyone already believes.

The people who are really making a useful case, the ones who are really challenging popular opinion and making others rethink their prejudices, are the people who proclaim that the WBC are bad people, and even bad people have rights. What’s revolutionary is to speak this truth: the WBC deserve to be hated, the world will be a better place after they’re gone, and they still deserve rights. What you call “mealy-mouthed” is in fact pure, uncompromising honesty.

It’s your own words that are mealy-mouthed, with this bullshit of oh, sure, they’re wrong, but you have to admire their sincerity.

The fucking Ku Klux Klan are sincere. The white supremacists at Stormfront are sincere. There is nothing inherently admirable in sincerity. If the WBC are sincere about their evil ideas, then that sincerity itself is a further evil. Your admiration of their sincerity is an abject stain upon your integrity, and if I’m wrong about the nonexistence of your god, it’s also a sin upon your soul. If God judges you, he might not see any moral distinction between admiring sincere evil, and admiring sincere evil. I see you defending the Pharisees, those sincere devotees to the letter of the Law, but what have you done for that gay-bashing victim laying in the ditch by the road to Jericho?

You should try playing the Devil’s Advocate sometimes, G; no one knows what you really think, and it’s oh so much fun to see them guess wrong over and over again.

No thanks. When I have moral clarity, I am morally bound to speak it. I try to resist the petty urge to take pleasure in sowing confusion among my fellow humans. You’re familiar with heteronormativity and the hetero privilege of blindness? At this time, the world is by default anti-gay. Whenever you miss an opportunity to point out that the WBC and other homophobes are not only wrong, but also wicked, you effectively send the message that their bigotry is morally acceptable. To focus on their rights is to be silent on their evils. To praise their sincerity is even worse. I recognize your good intentions. But good intentions by themselves don’t amount to shit. Please, inspect your words and actions, and ask yourself very critically where you might be doing harm.

Your message lately is a paen to homophobes. I’m trying not to take it personally, but it does feel like you’re taking their side against me and mine. I’m doing my best to remind myself that you’ve chosen to walk a very thin line, and it’s not your fault that it’s a thin line, and it’s almost inevitable that your fallibility will make you stumble from time to time. Please, stop showering these vile people with your praise. Who are you trying to impress? And I have a suggestion for your website. On your front page, and under your “What the…?” section, you could have a conspicuous applet that solicits donations for PFLAG, GLADD, Lambda’s anti-violence project, or similar groups. Your advocacy for the WBC’s rights would be converted into work for the rights of victims.

The irony would be delicious, but I also say this sincerely: that would be a balm of oil and wine for our wounds.

Comment #255: Grammar RWA  on  07/26  at  04:08 PM

Don’t tell yourself you can solicit donations for gay rights (or merely speak up for us from time to time as you now do so inconspicuously, with nothing whatsoever said for us on the front page of your blog right now among all those thousands of words) while continuing to dote upon the WBC’s “family values,” though. That’d be no less ridiculous and hypocritical than buying indulgences.

Comment #256: Grammar RWA  on  07/26  at  04:13 PM

As a biologist, I really dislike Dawkin’s oversimplified (thus wrong) biology and really like the simplicity and elegance when he writes about religion.  He is good at making it clear and simple.  In case of religion, he is right.  In case of biology, he is wrong.  The middle-part of his book, the one on evolution and memetics is atrocious, the rest is good.  But I have already said that in my response to your previous two posts on this topic.

Comment #257: Coturnix  on  07/26  at  07:20 PM

As a biologist, I really dislike Dawkin’s oversimplified (thus wrong) biology and really like the simplicity and elegance when he writes about religion.

Perhaps you’re taking the piss here, but if Dawkins’s popular writing annoys you when you know what he’s talking about, shouldn’t you be a little wary of him when he deals with something that’s not his nor your area of expertise?

Comment #258: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/26  at  11:03 PM

I am a “devout” atheist in that I am unapologetically without belief in any god(s). I also am agnostic in that I do not feel there is any way to know definitively.

“Strong” atheism can be characterized as a “belief” without evidence but certainly not “weak” atheism.

Comment #259: LanceThruster  on  07/26  at  11:47 PM

shouldn’t you be a little wary of him when he deals with something that’s not his nor your area of expertise?

How can the subject of the non-existence of a preposterous confabulation be outside the expertise of anybody who spends five minutes thinking reasonably about the topic? Is the subject of the non-existence of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny outside of anyones expertise?

Comment #260: Ken Cope  on  07/26  at  11:48 PM

How can the subject of the non-existence of a preposterous confabulation be outside the expertise of anybody who spends five minutes thinking reasonably about the topic?

See, that’s just a cheap, dumbassed bait-and-switch. Religion exists, regardless of the empirical status of its ultimate objects.

But if you’re going to play dumb reductivism, that’s cool, because it means one of two things: either your entire line of work is to be discarded as worthless; or I’m as qualified to do your job as you are, and I hope you don’t mind that I’ll be taking all your clients from now on.

Is the subject of the non-existence of Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny outside of anyones expertise?

Does the Wizard of Oz exist? Obviously not, which is why this is clearly a figment of my imagination.

Comment #261: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/27  at  12:17 AM

See, that’s just a cheap, dumbassed bait-and-switch. Religion exists, regardless of the empirical status of its ultimate objects.

People on LSD hallucinate, regardless of the empirical status of the subjects of their hallucinations. That people believe is not evidence for the veracity of whatever it is they believe. Thanks to their beloved grandmother, my children are still of an age where they are quite certain about the existence of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I do not contest that belief in Santa Claus exists.

But if you’re going to play dumb reductivism, that’s cool

Reductionism is useful. Nobody who wants to understand how things work eliminates reductionism from their repertoire. As Richard Dawkins wrote in The Blind Watchmaker, “nobody is really a reductionist in any sense worth being against.” YMMV.

either your entire line of work is to be discarded as worthless;

People value 2D and 3D animation; in matters of taste there can be no dispute.

or I’m as qualified to do your job as you are,

Not if you draw no better than you argue.

and I hope you don’t mind that I’ll be taking all your clients from now on.

Ah, the free marketplace of ideas. And talent.

Does the Wizard of Oz exist? Obviously not, which is why this is clearly a figment of my imagination.

That image is a product of my interpretation of L. Frank Baum’s and John R. Neil’s imaginations, and my hard work and craftsmanship, combining the collective product of years of apprenticeship with the hard work of programmers and faster cheaper better hardware. If you’d care to discuss the provenance of the idea of the carnival side-show con man and the stage magician in evening dress, typified by Kellar, Maskelyne’s leading magician of Baum’s day, revisit my hopefully less cobwebby site some months hence.

Comment #262: Ken Cope  on  07/27  at  01:11 AM

But it’s amusing that you didn’t notice your own hypocrisy.

It’s also inevitable for us apes to sometimes miss our own hypocrisy. Point taken.

The truth is, if you did stand in solidarity with the WBC’s victims, I’d have to concede that you’d be doing more good than harm. No matter what I think about your delusions (God is not talking to you, by the way; the decision to take up this crusade came entirely from your own good conscience), actions speak louder than words.

I believe what I believe. For all you know, God sent you to set me back on the right track.

Really. So WBC has never come anywhere near Edmonton or Calgary? I doubt that very much, since on godhatescanada.com they complain that “In Albert, WBC members were ordered by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police not to carry ‘God Hates Fags’ signs on pain of arrest and prosecution.”

They were scheduled to come to Edmonton one year, and even called the local independent news mags to brag about their beliefs, but they claimed that customs stopped them at the border and confiscated their signs – so, to my knowledge, they have yet to actually visit my town.

The people who are really making a useful case, the ones who are really challenging popular opinion and making others rethink their prejudices, are the people who proclaim that the WBC are bad people, and even bad people have rights. What’s revolutionary is to speak this truth: the WBC deserve to be hated, the world will be a better place after they’re gone, and they still deserve rights. What you call “mealy-mouthed” is in fact pure, uncompromising honesty.

...and…

Your message lately is a paen to homophobes. I’m trying not to take it personally, but it does feel like you’re taking their side against me and mine. I’m doing my best to remind myself that you’ve chosen to walk a very thin line, and it’s not your fault that it’s a thin line, and it’s almost inevitable that your fallibility will make you stumble from time to time.

Thank you. It’s nice, once in awhile, to be given the benefit of the doubt.

You’ve made too many good points for me to ignore.

I don’t see marriage equality or other gay rights causes as being different from (for example) the black civil rights movement in terms of either importance or desired outcome.

My aim has never been to defend bigots for being bigots. I want to defend their rights despite their being bigots. It pains me to admit it, but you’re correct: in trying to defend them without bias, I’ve allowed myself to identify with them too much.

I’m genuinely distressed to have crossed the line.

. Please, stop showering these vile people with your praise. Who are you trying to impress?

It’s not about impressing people. It is, ironically, about trying to end a vicious cycle of hatred.

And I have a suggestion for your website. On your front page, and under your “What the…?” section, you could have a conspicuous applet that solicits donations for PFLAG, GLADD, Lambda’s anti-violence project, or similar groups. Your advocacy for the WBC’s rights would be converted into work for the rights of victims. The irony would be delicious, but I also say this sincerely: that would be a balm of oil and wine for our wounds.

I’d like to think I would have stopped for the waylaid man, not to impress anyone, not to make amends for some sin, but simply because it was the right thing to do.

My support for gay rights was inconspicuous – an error that I’ve now corrected.

www.therighttobewrong.net

Comment #263: The Devil's Advocate  on  07/27  at  05:05 AM

Nobody who wants to understand how things work eliminates reductionism from their repertoire.

Subjective exclusion is not the same thing as reductionism. There are all manner of social phenomena that can be deemed unworthy of analysis if the only criterion that matters is one’s refusal to consider them worthy.

People value 2D and 3D animation; in matters of taste there can be no dispute.

Yet it’s a rare alembic that can distill taste without impurity.

For fuck’s sake. I have no idea who you think you’re arguing against here. Your lazy invocation of the bullshit ‘Courtier’s Reply’ way upthread implies that you’re an expert compartmentaliser or an colossal hypocrite, given the nature of your own work. Why should we care that you ‘interpret’ the imaginations of others, since it’s all just one pile of non-existent nonsense atop another?

(Myers is engaging in a cheap intellectual con-trick—more precisely, the fine art of misdirection—and people who quote that graf as if it’s somehow meaningful are plain rubes.)

The issue with Dawkins isn’t that he doesn’t ‘respect’ religion. It’s that he doesn’t respect people. Hence my response to Coturmix, who takes issue with Dawkins as a biologist reading a biologist, but likes ‘the simplicity and elegance when he writes about religion’. That, I’m arguing, is simply the misplaced deference of one amateur to another. (I listen to BBC Radio 4’s In Our Time, but my gut annoyance at sweeping and sometimes sloppy treatment of my own areas of interest is a reminder that other subjects are likely to raise the same hackles among their specialists.)

Unverifiable misbelief on any large scale is worth more than dismissal, not for the benefit of that misbelief or its misbelievers, but out of basic intellectual integrity.

Comment #264: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/27  at  05:24 AM

To clarify that last graf, since I’m not coming back to this damn thread:

1. Social phenomena are worthy of intellectually honest study, regardless of one’s sympathy towards the beliefs contained within them, or the verifiability of those beliefs.

2. Dawkins is a crappy advocate for atheism. You want an atheist hero? Shelly got carried out of Univ on the shoulders of his peers, and The Necessity of Atheism takes about two minutes to read.

Comment #265: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/27  at  05:35 AM

Shelley. With an e. Why the fuck I’m arguing about Richard fucking Dawkins on the internets at this time of night, I wish I knew. Perhaps it’s because people have decided to worship him, when he’s a false fucking prophet.

Comment #266: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/27  at  05:38 AM

Subjective exclusion is not the same thing as reductionism.

Then write clearly about that. Non-physicalists have issues with reductionism. You were decrying reductivism, an art movement, but I see I was being overly generous.

There are all manner of social phenomena that can be deemed unworthy of analysis if the only criterion that matters is one’s refusal to consider them worthy.

Like your evaluation of the worthiness of what Dawkins has to say about people who’ve displaced a naturalist’s view of the world with Abrahamic religions.

I have no idea who you think you’re arguing against here. Your lazy invocation of the bullshit ‘Courtier’s Reply’ way upthread implies that you’re an expert compartmentaliser or an colossal hypocrite, given the nature of your own work.

Some claims, and posts, especially those that don’t rise to the level of an idea, aren’t worth more than a curt dismissal.

Yet it’s a rare alembic that can distill taste without impurity.

Good. The impurity is quite often the point of the exercise. I’ve no use for platonic ideals nor essences; inclusions make the stone unique, despite a uniform cut.

Why should we care that you ‘interpret’ the imaginations of others, since it’s all just one pile of non-existent nonsense atop another?

Make-believe is a powerful aspect of childhood development. People tell stories, stories that are used for good and ill. I’m trying to understand the point you seem capable of making—are you trying to claim that the fact that I work in a storytelling medium while decrying the way people abuse fairy tales is supposed to make me a hypocrite? There are religious people who regard fairy tales as documentary and dry historical fact, leeching all the poetry and metaphor from them. The story of The Wizard of Oz tells about unmasking and disillusionment, the debunking of a conman’s grift, a charlatan and humbug who had kept an entire country under his thrall by employing colossal lies and fear. I’m not getting fat and rich convincing people they’ll suffer eternal torments if they don’t raise their children to believe that specific fairy tale really happened, exactly that way, all the while censoring other fairy stories and assaulting academics who don’t teach Oz in science and history classes.

(Myers is engaging in a cheap intellectual con-trick—more precisely, the fine art of misdirection—and people who quote that graf as if it’s somehow meaningful are plain rubes.)

Praising the depth of poetry and artistry of illuminated manuscripts and cathedrals that are living storybooks for the rubes in response to Dawkins’ claims is just cheap bleating, not even rising to the level of misdirection or intellect.

The issue with Dawkins isn’t that he doesn’t ‘respect’ religion. It’s that he doesn’t respect people.

What an asinine claim. There are people and delusions not worthy of respect, yet when Dawkins is the senior at table in Oxford, he’ll lead grace, out of respect for traditions and common courtesy.

Unverifiable misbelief on any large scale is worth more than dismissal, not for the benefit of that misbelief or its misbelievers, but out of basic intellectual integrity.

Basic intellectual integrity requires mere dismissal of unverifiable misbelief. The why of that is an inexhaustible topic in any discipline; Dawkins made his own contribution to the literature. How dare Richard FCCing Dawkins be a false prophet and a lousy poet. He is certainly no hero of atheism, but then atheism is no cause. Who is my hero of atheism to be? Dawkins? Hitchens? Harris? Dennett? Ayn Rand or Andrew Ryan?

I’m not coming back to this damn thread

Promise?

Shelly got carried out of Univ on the shoulders of his peers

Shelley washed up dead on a beach in his prime, hounded from his native country, leaving behind abandoned mistresses, wives, and spawn, having “hypocritically” invoked countless gods and goddesses in his poetry. Dawkins is no Shelley, damn him. Neither is America’s most recent Poet Laureate Charles Simic, but as recounted in his prose poem Shelley, atheism was at best a footnote in the message he derived from his first encounter with Shelley’s poetry. SFW? Acting as if fairy tales are true, rather than gleaning the truths from them that they contain, is a colossal failure, a delusion. That you don’t like Dawkins and his rather simple position doesn’t make worshipers of those who don’t begrudge him his point.

Comment #267: Ken Cope  on  07/27  at  03:02 PM

The Devil’s Advocate,

I anticipated that regardless of whether you agreed or disagreed with me, you would give a thoughtful reply. I appreciate that. Thank you.

Comment #268: Grammar RWA  on  07/27  at  08:50 PM

They were scheduled to come to Edmonton one year, and even called the local independent news mags to brag about their beliefs, but they claimed that customs stopped them at the border and confiscated their signs – so, to my knowledge, they have yet to actually visit my town.

Now I see. That sounds like it’s probably the same incident they described on godhatescanada, and they were stopped at the border of Alberta and Montana.

Comment #269: Grammar RWA  on  07/27  at  08:55 PM

Fuck yourself.

No really.  Go fuck yourself.

Comment #270: Nobody  on  07/28  at  02:27 AM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.