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Next entry: Salon Radio: Glenn Greenwald and I discuss Obama and Rick Warren Previous entry: Hilary Rosen unloads on Warren selection apologists on AC360

Rick Warren engages in a form of Holocaust denial

To add to the pile-on about Rick Warren, I have to add that Warren is another one of those wild misogynists who engages in a common form of Holocaust denial.  It’s not the traditional form we’re used to hearing about—-people who claim the Holocaust didn’t happen or that it wasn’t widespread—-but it is serious nonetheless, in no small part because it’s common and people who engage in it are taken seriously, as Rick Warren is. 

Attempting only to make abortions “rare” is not much different than saving some of the Jews during the Holocaust when all could be saved, according to megachurch pastor Rick Warren.

“Of course I want to reduce the number of abortions,” Warren told Beliefnet Editor-in-Chief Steven Waldman when asked if he was going to work with the Obama administration to achieve an abortion reduction agenda or if he thinks that the effort is a charade.

“But to me it is kind of a charade in that people say ‘We believe abortions should be safe and rare,’” he added.

“Don’t tell me it should be rare. That’s like saying on the Holocaust, ‘Well, maybe we could save 20 percent of the Jewish people in Poland and Germany and get them out and we should be satisfied with that,’” Warren said. “I’m not satisfied with that. I want the Holocaust ended.”


“Traditional” Holocaust denial is about saying that the Holocaust didn’t happen or downplaying the extent of it.  But this is a form of Holocaust denial that downplays the tragedy of it.  How? 

*It implies that zygotes and fetuses without feelings, brains, memories, lives, or families are equal or greater in value to the lives of the living, breathing, feeling, thinking people that were murdered in the Holocaust.  This is an insult to those people, their memories, and their families.

*It’s another form of the “liberal fascism” slur, an attempt to rebrand the fundamentally right wing ideology that was Nazism as just another form of liberalism.  This is ahistorical in the extreme, and is a form of denialism.  The Nazis actually agreed with the Christian right about gays(well, that they’re perverts, not that they should be killed), abortion, women’s roles, and the centrality of Christianity.  Now, obviously they strongly differ on what levels of violence they’re willing to use, and the Christian right in America currently rejects most eliminationist rhetoric.  But they’re on board with “Kinder, Küche, Kirche”.

*Few people, even those that claim abortion is “murder”, will actually commit to the logical conclusion, which is that 35% of American women are murderers.  The anti-choice movement currently portrays women who obtain abortions and pea-brained children who make a terrible mistake because they don’t have the intelligence to assume moral culpability, and who will be saved by abortion bans into making the “right” choice that they don’t have the intelligence to make themselves.  By equating abortion with the Holocaust, you are extending this lack of responsibility to the people who gassed and shot Holocaust victims. 

*And that’s at best.  As you can see in the above quotes, people who compare abortion to the Holocaust tend to use very passive language to describe the Holocaust, as if it’s an event that just happened, like a bad weather event.  I don’t think they’re letting the Nazis off the hook on purpose exactly.  It’s just that when you use language that properly puts the blame squarely on the shoulders of those who murdered their fellow human beings in cold blood, you’re inviting your audience to see why it’s a bad metaphor, even if you believe that abortion kills a person.  And that’s because there’s no “cold blood” in abortion.  No one gets an abortion or performs an abortion out of some anti-baby bigotry.  Most abortion providers and women who get abortion have and love children.  Thus, anti-choicers have to conceal and distract from the fact that the Holocaust was fundamentally a hate crime, albeit one on a scale that is impossible to wrap your head around.

*All of the above applies to comparisons between slavery and abortion.  These comparisons are an insult to the actual people who suffered under slavery and its aftermath.

In case all the above doesn’t get you upset enough, I read an interesting post at a Christian website that is “pro-life”, but isn’t as wackaloon crazy as the people they call hyper-patriarchs.  (Thanks to commenter Laurie for directing my attention to this fascinating website.)

I was confronted by a fellow church member and basically called an adulterer and a harlot for choosing to practice birth control—that I was effectually castrating my husband.

To be very clear, this woman is anti-abortion and would probably disagree with my take on this.  But I read something like this, and I connect it to the way the same men will reach for Holocaust metaphors to describe the right of women to terminate unwanted pregnancies, and I think you can see where I’m going with this.  The anti-contraception and anti-abortion movement are more than linked. They’re one and the same.  In fact, the whole reasoning behind expanding the reach of the HHS conscience clause is so that people who “believe” that the birth control pill is abortion (despite the fact that the pill works by preventing fertilization, as does emergency contraception) can choose to obstruct women who seek to prevent pregnancy.  So if you believe that contraception is abortion and that abortion is the Holocaust, then your moral barometer is completely broken.  Rick Warren isn’t some foolish child weeping over the lost babies who hasn’t made the connection between controlling women’s bodies and keeping women as second class citizens.  He openly preaches a gospel of female inferiority. To reach for Holocaust metaphors to describe a pain that’s fundamentally rooted in an egotistical anger over loss of male privilege is quite possibly beats all the other reasons I’ve listed here that it’s wrong. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 02:02 PM • (94) Comments

Wow. The appeal to anti-semitism never lies far below the surface of Xtian fundamentalism, does it? I’ll say one thing for Warren: like any good song-and-dance man, he knows which in-jokes get his audience cheering.

Comment #1: Gracchus  on  12/18  at  02:14 PM

I know.  It makes me sick.

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/18  at  02:24 PM

This is not suprising. I just wonder how these people avoid really thinking about the loss of so many ADULT lives (and in Iraq as well), try and compare them to blastocysts and sleep at night. It’s such a false comparison it boggles the mind.

Warren’s church also reminds me of a church here in Seattle that purports to be “hip & cool” and getting the kids into Krist but also preaches a message of female inferiority and suppression.
(Mars Hill for those who are wondering)

It’s the same old song of hate and oppression no matter how it’s dressed up.

Comment #3: Danica Lefse Queen  on  12/18  at  02:25 PM

It’s worse than the holocaust because the pre-born are without sin, perfect souls unlike the Jews who had been walking around thinking impure thoughts and stuff.  Plus those women are sluts.

Comment #4: togolosh  on  12/18  at  02:32 PM

For anyone who has an anthropological interest in evangelical Christianity (that would be me - always trying to understand my in-laws better), that Web site is fascinating and heartbreaking. I recommend the link.

Comment #5: chingona  on  12/18  at  02:36 PM

As someone who was raised Jewish, I find the Holocaust comparison especially egregious. I remember when my Catholic neighbor was having a dangerous pregnancy that endangered her life. My mom told me that Catholicism valued the life of the fetus over the mother. She told me that Judaism believed the opposite, that a mother’s obligation was to her already-born children and that abortion was the morally right thing to do if a woman’s life was in danger. I always grew up feeling that way about mental health to, which to me includes, “I just can’t be pregnant/have a child at this point in my life.” Thanks for bringing it up, Amanda.

Comment #6: one jewish dyke  on  12/18  at  02:40 PM

<strike>It’s worse than the holocaust because the pre-born are without sin, perfect souls unlike the Jews who had been walking around thinking impure thoughts and stuff.  Plus</strike> those women are sluts.

It wasn’t broken, by any means, but I still fixed it for you.

Comment #7: Auguste  on  12/18  at  02:45 PM

Amanda,

Thanks for writing about this. I mentioned the same quote in my post because it literally sickens me to hear this kind of conflation. To compare my relatives, my ancestors to embryos-in-utero and to compare a murderous, movement of anti-semites to women & mothers trying to make the best decisions they can about their lives, for themselves and their families, is despicable, anti-semitic and should exposed for what it is.

I’ve posted comments before on religious, extremist, anti-choice sites that repeat these Holocaust = abortion claims and I’ve never received any comment from anyone other than extremist, Christian fundamentalists claiming that it’s valid - the bigotry is astounding.

Amie Newman
RH Reality Check

Comment #8: Amie Newman  on  12/18  at  02:46 PM

I’ve seen this comparison on their printed literature, along with lurid photos of death camps and diagrams of slave ships. Since it’s widely understood that only violent struggle, violence in its most extreme form, could end the evils of Nazi genocide and chattel slavery, the inference for the current anti-abortion campaign is clear. This is a wink and a nod to the zealous acolytes who assault women at clinic doors, bomb clinics and murder doctors. The mainstream movement dare not endorse their methods directly, but is glad to benefit from the chilling effect of their terrorism, so they endorse by implication and inference. I would bet that if one reads the writings and stated motivations of Eric Rudolph, one would find such Holocaust analogies. And this sort of argument lays groundwork for justifying much greater violence down the road.

Comment #9: J Hertzberg  on  12/18  at  03:01 PM

It’s worse than the holocaust because the pre-born are without sin, perfect souls unlike the Jews who had been walking around thinking impure thoughts and stuff.  ...
togolosh on 12/18 at 09:32 AM

Sure, if you toss out the doctrine of Original Sin.

This is exactly the kind of thing certain reactionary relatives of mine, who profess to be orthodox Roman Catholics, have said—not in comparison to Jews but Iraqis. This was during the 1991 war on Iraq; in citing the civilian victims of that campaign I was also citing other victims of global violence, provoking my uncle to say that it was a good thing lots of guilty, trashy people were getting “justice” inflicted on them and how mad he was that ‘innocent babies” were being killed—the innocent babies already born recently in Iraq and other places, not to mention the allegedly super-innocent feti/cherubim in the wombs of Iraqi etc women who got blown up, apparently not included.

“Thou Shalt Not Abort the Innocent Babe In the Womb—After It’s Born, Open Season!”
Not the Bible: America’s #2 Bestseller

Comment #10: Mark Foxwell  on  12/18  at  03:36 PM

I was confronted by a fellow church member and basically called an adulterer and a harlot for choosing to practice birth control—that I was effectually castrating my husband.

Imagine saying that to a woman with 10 kids!

Comment #11: rea  on  12/18  at  03:42 PM

The whole, “You’re worse than Hitler!” line of argument, not only serves to cloud the understanding of the Holocaust, but makes the Nazis out to be some sort of boogie men, a kind of blank slate of evil on which to project whatever you dislike, instead of real humans like all of us.  The serves to make the Holocaust a special moment of inhuman evil, thus removes the duty to police our actions in order to prevent a repeat.  I guess what I am trying rather ineloquently to say is that these specious arguments require the creation of Godwin’s Law, but Godwin’s Law removes the ability to seriously compare the actions of present day leaders to Hitler with the intent of preventing mass death resulting from the waging of aggressive war.  To use a strained metaphor, fascism is a disease of the state and Hitler comparisons are a form of antibiotic, by calling anything we disagree with fascism, we build up a society resistance to the antibiotic.

Comment #12: Fatman  on  12/18  at  03:49 PM

That comparison really, really pisses on the effort and memory of anyone who did save people from the Holocaust.  Or, really, practically anyone who tries to do anything good ever, under the circumstances of their own real world.

Comment #13: lonespark  on  12/18  at  03:54 PM

Here is my thing about Holocaust/abortion comparisons: if all those Jews had lived inside Hitler’s torso and there was no way for him to get them out without killing them, then it would be an entirely different moral question.

It boggles my mind to think that some people could be confused enough to think that “I’m gonna remove this being that is being created inside my body against my will” and “I am gonna go out and find everyone I can from a religious group and systematically kill them all” are even in the same universe or moral wrongs.

Comment #14: GumbyAnne  on  12/18  at  03:56 PM

Reading this post reminded me that a lot of fairly sensible people don’t like the using word Holocaust to describe the Nazi atrocities, because the original meaning is the ritual burnt offering of an animal.  For evangelicals who believe that the Jews have to live in the Holy Land so they can all be mowed down when Armageddon comes, the notion of death camps as burnt offering might make sense, for everything else, not so much.

Of course, the idea of fetus as burnt offering is even crazier. Everyone who’s read about Abraham and Isaac knows you’re supposed to use a walking, talking offspring…

Comment #15: paul  on  12/18  at  03:57 PM

fatman, that’s a good point.

Comment #16: kate  on  12/18  at  03:59 PM

The appeal to anti-semitism never lies far below the surface of Xtian fundamentalism, does it?

Most bigots are multi-taskers; they don’t just disparage gays or people of color or immigrants or what have you, they tend to despise them all.

Comment #17: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/18  at  04:28 PM

I don’t get how this proves this point. He knows you can do both, right? So why is he being so much more righteous than those who worked to save the lives of as many Jewish people they could during the Holocaust? Because, while I don’t think any of those people were content to just save who they could, they still SAVED WHO THEY COULD. Pastorick here seems to regard that as unacceptable. All or nothing. An attitude that during the Holocaust would have resulted in millions more victims.

He wants to stop abortions. Fine. He’s a right to his opinion. But this is a totally failed effort at justifying a refusal to take steps to reduce abortions while trying to stop all abortion. Multi-task, Pastorick. Plenty of people figured that out during the Holocaust. So what’s your excuse again?

Comment #18: BStu  on  12/18  at  04:30 PM

Exactly, BStu.  The all or nothing attitude demonstrates that this is about systems of oppression, creating and maintaining them.  Not about human life.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/18  at  04:32 PM

I can’t even think about Warren’s Inaugural invitation without turning bright red from the effort of suppressing the desire to throw heavy objects through all my windows. WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK was Obama thinking?

Comment #20: Steve LaBonne  on  12/18  at  04:45 PM

A somewhat unknown part of WWII/Holocaust history is that some Jewish leaders opposed* the United States opening up its borders to Jewish refugees in the lead-up to the Final Solution.  Their motivation was to get those refugees to migrate to Palestine rather than other countries that were willing to take them.  That kind of self-serving shortsightedness** strikes me as very similar to what Warren is advocating here.  Better to oppose rational solutions to the issue you care about so you can hold out hope to get everything you want (with a cherry on top) sometime in the future.


*And went so far as to lobby the U.S. government not to increase quotas for Jewish immigrants.
**To be fair, those leaders didn’t know to what extent the Nazis were going to go.  They thought Jews were facing more run-of-the-mill persecution.

Comment #21: keshmeshi  on  12/18  at  04:52 PM

This and the latest Catholic church edict on contraception just goes to show that organized religion is slipping further and further back into the scary territory.

Comment #22: MarkusR  on  12/18  at  04:54 PM

There are lots of good religious ministers in the US. But no religious minister in the US gets rich and famous without being a shit.

Comment #23: pseudonymous in nc  on  12/18  at  04:57 PM

Your invincible ignorance is charming as ever, but that\‘s not holocaust denial; it\‘s an analogy.

Comment #24: Wanderer  on  12/18  at  05:00 PM

Dang, what DID people do for argument points before the Nazis?

++++++
Was this the guy who moderated the McCain/Obama interviews, where the interviewees were sequestered before being asked identical questions?

Comment #25: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  12/18  at  05:00 PM

Was this the guy who moderated the McCain/Obama interviews, where the interviewees were sequestered before being asked identical questions?

Yes.

Comment #26: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/18  at  05:05 PM

organized religion is slipping further and further back into the scary territory

Unfortunately it never ha far to go.

Keep going to church, moderate Christians!  Keep putting money in that collection plate!  MAYBE some of it won’t end up going to deny people their civil rights.  Only one way to find out!

Comment #27: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/18  at  05:07 PM

Blow this, I’m rescinding Godwin’s law. Every time this shit comes up from now on i’m saying “Rick Warren, like the Nazis, wants to outlaw abortion,” and anyone who cries can go get fucked.

Comment #28: dan  on  12/18  at  05:19 PM

Having come from a crazy fundie background, I can say with confidence that at least 90% of the “Abortion = Holocaust” people aren’t anti-Semites who hate Jews. Warren may be, but that’s another story. The reason the comparison is made is because we MUST stir up the troops and WWII is exciting.

At the risk of TMI, I can assure everyone here that being a fundie is BORING. Extremely boring. Painfully boring. Christian literature sucks. Christian romance novels are the epitome of suckage. Christian movies? Ha! Real True Christians don’t watch movies. Or dance. Or drink. Or smoke. Or eat carbs (fuck you, Mr. Atkins…). And you can’t even have sex without feeling massively guilty about it, even if you are married.

What is left? Causes! Crusades! Saving innocent people!!! Now, “saving” souls is difficult - lots of people won’t convert, some people laugh at you or argue. And it’s hard. Go door to door? On my day off? When it’s 90 degrees outside? No way! We need an easier cause, something we can vote about and throw money at from our air conditioned houses. And we want to save things that will be grateful.

And THAT is why so many evangelicals go after abortion. Babies are sweet and innocent. They are “grateful” in the sense that most of us are happy we were born (the old, “Abortion should be illegal because what if my parents had aborted me?!?” trope). It’s an easy cause to support. And it’s exciting! You’re saving their LIFE, preventing them from being not-born. No, better, preventing them from being MURDERED! No, even BETTER!

WE ARE LIKE SOLDIERS FROM WORLD-FUCKING-WAR II! We’re, like, liberating babies from death camps and stuff. And we’re so much cooler and badder (er, good-er) than the Nazis, I mean, abortionists who are having sex and murdering babies. Oh yeah. I’m a badass.

// applies bleach to brain to wipe off the fundie.

And, yeah, it really is that lame. One of the reasons I love Slactivist is he points out how the Left Behind novels are huge escapist fare for bored Christians who aren’t allowed to do anything but sit around and wait for the Rapture…

Comment #29: Ellen  on  12/18  at  05:23 PM

Keep going to church, moderate Christians!  Keep putting money in that collection plate!  MAYBE some of it won’t end up going to deny people their civil rights.  Only one way to find out!

Excuse me?! How fucking ignorant are you? Are you aware of the fact that Christianity hasn’t had a home office since the 11th century?

I know where the money goes in my mainline parish, and I know for a FACT that it doesn’t go to deny anybody’s civil rights.

Do try to keep up. Or shut your piehole. Your pick.

Comment #30: hamletta  on  12/18  at  05:30 PM

Having come from a crazy fundie background, I can say with confidence that at least 90% of the “Abortion = Holocaust” people aren’t anti-Semites who hate Jews. Warren may be, but that’s another story. The reason the comparison is made is because we MUST stir up the troops and WWII is exciting.

I think you are mostly right, but I don’t know that they would be willing to make the comparison if they really considered Jews fully human like them and not some exotic other. And that is a form of bigotry.

Comment #31: chingona  on  12/18  at  05:38 PM

Your invincible ignorance is charming as ever, but that\’s not holocaust denial; it\’s an analogy.

If you would try out reading comprehension some time, Amanda’s point is that the analogy is intellectually dishonest and morally dangerous, so much so that it amounts to a denial of true horror of the Holocaust. Not that it’s not an analogy.

Comment #32: chingona  on  12/18  at  05:39 PM

Your invincible ignorance is charming as ever, but that\’s not holocaust denial; it\’s an analogy.

“It is probably more illuminating to go a little bit further back, to the Middle Ages. One of its characteristics was that ‘reasoning by analogy’ was rampant; another characteristic was almost total intellectual stagnation, and we now see why the two go together. A reason for mentioning this is to point out that, by developing a keen ear for unwarranted analogies, one can detect a lot of medieval thinking today.”

Edsger Dijkstra, 1988

What Warren does is medieval thinking-by-analogy which - when its premises are carefully teased out - diminishes the tragedy of the Holocaust.

Comment #33: cyrano  on  12/18  at  05:40 PM

Your invincible ignorance is charming as ever, but that’s not holocaust denial; it’s an analogy.

It’s a very poor and inaccurate analogy that belittles the extent and scale of the Holocaust. As Amanda said: denial of a different sort. There’s a certain sort of Xtian fundie who responds to that particular dog whistle, and I’m sure a clever guy like Warren is aware of that fact.

Comment #34: Gracchus  on  12/18  at  05:43 PM

Blow this, I’m rescinding Godwin’s law. Every time this shit comes up from now on i’m saying “Rick Warren, like the Nazis, wants to outlaw abortion,” and anyone who cries can go get fucked.

1. There never was a Godwin’s “law”, the guy just pointed out that people tend to throw “Nazi” around way too much on the usenet (the probability of someone being called a Nazi approaches 1, etc.)
2. When someone is comparing you to the Nazis, even if it’s subtle, you have to respond. And the only way to do that is to use the word. We can’t be afraid to respond to subtle calumnies, such as what Rick Warren is doing.
3. There really are people today who yearn for a Nazi-like society, whether they call it that or not.

Comment #35: atheist  on  12/18  at  05:45 PM

Wanderer, yes it is an analogy, but it is a bad analogy, that is the point.  This analogy, in order to fit the facts, either calls the Shoah no worse than women’s bodily autonomy, or implies that the support for women’s bodily autonomy is support for the Shoah. If the first case is true than it is a form of holocaust denial and if the second case is true it is a call to send Red Army to liberate the uteri (uteruses?) of unwillingly pregnant women. If this is the new Shoah then 1/3 of women are S.S. 

If you agree with Warren that abortion and the Shoah are analogous, then make your case.  Otherwise you are just bringing up a linguistic irrelevancy.

Comment #36: Fatman  on  12/18  at  05:45 PM

It really annoys me when this “abortion = Holocaust” nonsense is in the mouths of Catholic clergy. I find this egregious because of the Vatican’s silence and “neutrality” during the actual Holocaust.

Hey, if Pius XII couldn’t find it in himself to defy Hitler, so be it. Extraordinary courage is just that, extraordinary; it cannot be demanded of anyone, even a Pope. But if you didn’t have the cojones to oppose the historical Holocaust, don’t have the chutzpah to use it as a weapon against abortion.

Comment #37: Bitter Scribe  on  12/18  at  05:49 PM

WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK was Obama thinking?

The more I read about this Warren guy, the more I feel the same way.  Does Obama really know who this guy is?  Seriously?

Comment #38: Tim  on  12/18  at  05:52 PM

That’s the ugliest picture of J*sus walking on the water that I’ve ever seen!

Comment #39: Rugged in Montana  on  12/18  at  05:53 PM

Honest question from a former fat-guy.

Putting aside, if only momentarily, the question of a participatory Divinity wholly concerned with the minutia of human thought and daily action, why would anyone listen to a sloppy, fat man as a representative of that divinity?

Look, I lost 90lbs and set myself about to a regimen of daily exercise, strength and flexibility training and cardiovascular routines… and I don’t subscribe to the idea of a very micromanaging Deity who cares about what I do or do not do with my body. It is not “my temple.”

I got in shape and healthy because I realized I owed my daughter every manageable factor I had within my control to be around for her as long as possible; that my health was not really wholly my own possession. But if one loves a GOD so much, and a god very much concerned with physical action and devotion (he doesn’t want you to touch this part, he’s concerned with what you wear and when you wear it, he put in his holy book proscriptions against the deformed entering the tabernacle, etc… isn’t gluttony and willful physical apathy also an abomination unto the dude?

I ask this only half-tounge-in-cheek. Seriously, if someone is supposed to have all the answers from the Sun-source of answers, wouldn’t it stand to reason that they would be necessarily so self-actualized as to be balanced and healthy in their appetites? Like, those annoying “life-coach” people, they’re all at least required to stay in shape to play the part, as proof that their approach has real-world results.

This pot-bellied putz with his Chuck-Todd “I’m avoiding the roundness of my face by placing fake angularity” goatee seems like, just at first glance, not someone you’d look to for life-coaching guidance.

Comment #40: Josh  on  12/18  at  05:55 PM

Excuse me?! How fucking ignorant are you? Are you aware of the fact that Christianity hasn’t had a home office since the 11th century?

I’d be angry, too, if I found out a movement I supported did one tenth of what Christianity has done.

Comment #41: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/18  at  05:58 PM

Real True Christians don’t watch movies. Or dance. Or drink. Or smoke. Or eat carbs (fuck you, Mr. Atkins…).

So what’s the rule here? You just can’t do anything fun?

Comment #42: junk science  on  12/18  at  06:13 PM

Dang, what DID people do for argument points before the Nazis?

Simple. “________ is dangerous and immoral and unAmerican. It’s worse than the Jews!”

Comment #43: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/18  at  06:21 PM

Putting aside, if only momentarily, the question of a participatory Divinity wholly concerned with the minutia of human thought and daily action, why would anyone listen to a sloppy, fat man as a representative of that divinity?

The better question is, why would anyone who claims to be concerned about Christian charity to the poor listen to a very well-fed man who drapes himself in expensive (and very un-sloppy) clothing? Indeed, that question has probably been asked since the Middle Ages.

I don’t expect all celebrity priests to be in good shape, and Warren may be a naturally portly guy. But if he wasn’t so accustomed to fine dining he’d definitely look a lot different. And while it’s unrealistic to expect priests to go around half-starved in sackcloth and ashes, there’s a happy medium between that and the guy who appears in the photo at the top of this post.

The historical Rabbi Joshua ben Joseph would puke at the nakedly greedy and selfish “Prosperity Gospel” sold by Osteen and Warren.

Comment #44: Gracchus  on  12/18  at  06:21 PM

My mom grew up around Southern Baptists and Pentecostals. They couldn’t wear lipstick because lipstick was sinful, so they loaded up on the non-lipstick makeup (mom said they looked like zombies).

At one point my mom was asking some friends about what there was to do in town that was fun.

“Dancing?” she asked,
“No, that’s sinful,” they replied.
“Can we get beers and drink and smoke?”
“No, sinful.”
“What do you do for fun, then?”
“We fuck.”

Comment #45: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/18  at  06:23 PM

organized religion is slipping further and further back into the scary territory”
You say that as if it had ever left...

Comment #46: Devonian  on  12/18  at  06:24 PM

@ junk science

You cannot partake of anything that is “worldly” and not specifically Christian. It’s a distraction, a temptation and possibly even the gateway to secularism. When my husband was taking philosophy classes at his Christian college, his father was very concerned about what affect studying philosophy was having on his faith (turns out - not so good). That’s why there is this whole parallel world of Christian music, books, movies, etc. - they are trying to provide an acceptable version of all that tempting stuff so that it’s easier to stay on the path. It’s like ... diet soda.

Comment #47: chingona  on  12/18  at  06:28 PM

There never was a Godwin’s “law”

THANK YOU.

All he said was, if an internet discussion goes on long enough, someone will be called a Nazi.  that doesn’t mean it is inappropriate to do so.  For instance, we could be talking about . . . Nazis.

Comment #48: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/18  at  06:31 PM

“It’s not antisemitism, it’s just convenient”—this is like the people who don’t recognize racism or sexism when it’s just a matter of treating blacks or women as automatic second-class citizens rather than “actively” hating them.

Comment #49: paul  on  12/18  at  06:38 PM

At one point my mom was asking some friends about what there was to do in town that was fun.
“Dancing?” she asked,
“No, that’s sinful,” they replied.
“Can we get beers and drink and smoke?”
“No, sinful.”
“What do you do for fun, then?”
“We fuck.”

How many couples at Christian colleges get married sophomore or junior year because they just can’t stand it anymore and need to do it and then end up divorced a few years after graduation?

My husband went to Wheaton, with its famous pledge. He was nearly kicked out of school for taking a friend’s younger sister to Homecoming after her boyfriend broke up with her the week before (totally platonic outing that did involve dancing) and was on “probation” for his spotty attendance in chapel.

I have heard it argued, though, that it’s actually more fun than growing up secular because everything is bad and naughty and taboo and the secular kids don’t get to experience the thrill of transgression.

Comment #50: chingona  on  12/18  at  06:39 PM

I think that many Christians and other moral obscurantists take an extremely subjective approach.  The think that evil is a feeling they have—for instance in the sense that “if the holy spirit tells me this or that thing, which I come across, is evil, then that is evil right there.  No need to look any further.” 

Their sense of morality is a complete jumble, made up of affirming their own reflexes to various things as if reflexively reacting to something in a particular way implied insight that comes from above.

Comment #51: jennifer cascadia  on  12/18  at  06:44 PM

The better question is, why would anyone who claims to be concerned about Christian charity to the poor listen to a very well-fed man who drapes himself in expensive (and very un-sloppy) clothing? Indeed, that question has probably been asked since the Middle Ages.

That might have been one of the reasons for the Reformation.

Comment #52: Tim  on  12/18  at  06:57 PM

I think you are mostly right, but I don’t know that they would be willing to make the comparison if they really considered Jews fully human like them and not some exotic other. And that is a form of bigotry.

Chingona, I agree in principle, but it’s not that simple, and I speak as someone who used to believe the Abortion = Holocaust line as a wide-eyed child.

It’s not that Jews aren’t human. It’s that your average fundie doesn’t realize that the historical events they invoke happened to REAL people. When you believe that everything in the Bible is literally true, including Noah’s flood, Jonah’s whale, Adam’s ‘apple’, and so on, you lose the ability to appreciate the difference between fiction and fact. And that difference is where empathy lies.

That’s not even adding in the layer that a fundie has to believe that God is 100% good and powerful and active in our lives AND that he regularly smites other cultures and orders genocide. When you’re not allowed to think about the implications of genocide (because it’d make you appreciate the Old Testament less), then it’s hard to understand the full implications of how terrible, awful, wrong the Holocaust was.

For another example, I had a Christian textbook 15 years ago that literally claimed that smallpox was God’s way of clearing out America for the Christian Europeans. Of course, this is dazzlingly racist, but I honestly don’t think the author UNDERSTOOD that it was racist. To him, there was a Cause (alwways God), a known historical Fact (dead American Indians), and an a priori Result (Good - because all God does is good) and therefore no further room for thought, commentary, or extrapolation. If you thought further about how terrible that idea is, you would have to question either the Cause or the Result.

It’s an insane way of life, but it’s not malicious in most cases, it’s just cognitive dissonance. Like Slactivist, I feel sorry for them. They have to deal with the belief that nearly everyone they meet is going to burn in Hell for eternity. If you really THOUGHT about that, you would literally go insane, so most don’t, for the sake of a quiet life. (Remember, most fundies are born, not made.)

How many couples at Christian colleges get married sophomore or junior year because they just can’t stand it anymore and need to do it and then end up divorced a few years after graduation?

I went to a fundie college and saw a LOT of couples who (innocently enough) confused Lust for Love. It wasn’t pretty.

Comment #53: Ellen  on  12/18  at  07:41 PM

The point of Godwin’s law (from someone who remembers when Usenet and IRC was the only way people talked on the net), is that when a thread went on and on and on, whoever called the other a Nazi first was declared loser by fiat. Thread closed. Next topic, please.

***
Atheist:
“3. There really are people today who yearn for a Nazi-like society, whether they call it that or not. “

Like these people?

http://bloodthirstyliberal.com/?p=8031
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1047537.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081217/ap_on_fe_st/odd_hitler_cake

Comment #54: K. Mac  on  12/18  at  07:54 PM

So what’s the rule here? You just can’t do anything fun?

Are you saying that prayer and Bible study aren’t fun?

Comment #55: Dolbia  on  12/18  at  07:56 PM

Ellen, again, I pretty much agree with you. My only contention or nitpick or whatever is that just as the history author may not have understood he was racist but nonetheless was racist, I think that those making the abortion=Holocaust comparison may not understand that it is anti-Semitic but nonetheless it is. You don’t need to have intention to be bigoted. That’s my point.

Comment #56: chingona  on  12/18  at  08:13 PM

@ Ellen. If you don’t mind me asking, where did you go?

Comment #57: chingona  on  12/18  at  08:14 PM

I really wish that interviewers would do the sensible thing and ask Rick Warren and his anti-abortion ilk why they aren’t organizing and arming the Resistance. Because if abortion clinics = Auschwitz, then it’s only moral to fight back as opposed to just sitting around on your ass whining. When someone actually does bomb an abortion clinic it’s because they take the Holocaust rhetoric seriously and follow it to its logical conclusion.

Comment #58: Bear  on  12/18  at  08:21 PM

And, I’m sorry, but I can’t get over “Saddleback”. Do all evangelical churches sound like gay bondage clubs?

Comment #59: Bear  on  12/18  at  08:33 PM

It’s not that Jews aren’t human. It’s that your average fundie doesn’t realize that the historical events they invoke happened to REAL people.

And that’s why it’s Holocaust denial.  They have stolen the humanity of the people who died in the Holocaust, and replaced it with their own bullshit.  It’s criminally immoral.

Comment #60: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/18  at  08:38 PM

Because if abortion clinics = Auschwitz, then it’s only moral to fight back as opposed to just sitting around on your ass whining.

Yeah, I’ve never understood how “pro-lifers” can be anti-social-safety-net.  That’s basically saying, “We could save all those murdered babies but our taxes would go up too much.”

Comment #61: KL  on  12/18  at  08:46 PM

\“And that’s why it’s Holocaust denial.  They have stolen the humanity of the people who died in the Holocaust, and replaced it with their own bullshit.  It’s criminally immoral.\”

Only to your warped mind. Are you aware of your mediocrity? It is absolutely transparent to me.

Comment #62: Wanderer  on  12/18  at  09:00 PM

So Wanderer, I can not tell for certain from you statements, but it appears that you believe that the Shoah and abortion are analogous.  Is this the case?  If it is, could you please defend this position of yours?

Comment #63: Fatman  on  12/18  at  09:12 PM

Only to your warped mind. Are you aware of your mediocrity? It is absolutely transparent to me.

That’ll show her!

Come on, Wanderer, if you want to stick around here you’ll have to be more entertaining in your trolling. Or at least provide something resembling a coherent counter-argument.

Comment #64: Gracchus  on  12/18  at  09:23 PM

Wanderer is… a no-show.

Comment #65: atheist  on  12/18  at  09:53 PM

Certainly a good argument, Wanderer.  It should be mediocre to point out that victims of the Holocaust were real people with real lives, but since you fuckers don’t get that, it’s unfortunately necessary to do so.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/18  at  10:46 PM

If her mediocrity is transparent, it must be pretty hard to see. You can’t blame her for missing it.

You cannot partake of anything that is “worldly” and not specifically Christian.

Yeah, I’m just surprised by the “no carbs” rule. I assume that has to do with healthy eating, so were fundies supposed to abstain from starchy foods and/or dietary fats back when they were the obesity boogeymen? Are they just supposed to stay current on their fad diets? Or am I taking this too literally?

Comment #67: junk science  on  12/18  at  10:47 PM

“Don’t tell me it should be rare. That’s like saying on the Holocaust, ‘Well, maybe we could save 20 percent of the Jewish people in Poland and Germany and get them out and we should be satisfied with that,’” Warren said.

What a strange thing to say. Sounds like he should just give up on his crusade, since he can’t save 100% of those preshus baybeez murrdurred by the meen ol aborshun man! “If you can only save 20%, fuck it! Let’s not even try!”

Comment #68: Emily  on  12/19  at  12:29 AM

@ junk science ... I assumed she meant the carbs part as a joke or a bit of hyperbole. Maybe Dr. Atkins was a Christian. Don’t know.

Comment #69: chingona  on  12/19  at  12:32 AM

Yeah, I’ve never understood how “pro-lifers” can be anti-social-safety-net.  That’s basically saying, “We could save all those murdered babies but our taxes would go up too much.”

Because it’s about punishment (that they also hate taxes even when taxes could fund things beneficial to them is a coincidence tongue laugh). Social safety nets let people “get away with” things.

Comment #70: annejumps  on  12/19  at  12:39 AM

if Jesus were alive, he would disown all of the crazy Fundies.
i think that we had a temporal rift, and instead of real Christians, we got Bizzaro-World Christians.

Godwins law is a law in the same sense that the Law of Gravity is a Law.

also, i have never understood the anti-semitism of Christians; Jesus was jewish. so where’s the problem with jewish people? Jesus wasn’t even trying to create a new religion, just reform the old one!

Comment #71: denelian  on  12/19  at  01:19 AM

And even if Jews are bad because they “killed Jesus,” isn’t that a good thing, because he had to die to save humanity from its sins? Shouldn’t they be thanking the Jews for giving them a shot at heaven?

Comment #72: junk science  on  12/19  at  01:32 AM

I just realized how funny that picture of Warren is. He’s saying, “How much do I hate feminists? This much!”

Comment #73: Emily  on  12/19  at  02:00 AM

Yeah, I’m just surprised by the “no carbs” rule. I assume that has to do with healthy eating, so were fundies supposed to abstain from starchy foods and/or dietary fats back when they were the obesity boogeymen? Are they just supposed to stay current on their fad diets? Or am I taking this too literally?

Sounds like an offshoot of the dominion mandate.  While the big noises go about trying to take over society, the average workaday fundies can do their bit to subdue nature by eating as many animals as possible.

Comment #74: Fiona  on  12/19  at  07:12 AM

Yeah, I’ve never understood how “pro-lifers” can be anti-social-safety-net.  That’s basically saying, “We could save all those murdered babies but our taxes would go up too much.”

As soon as they’re born, the babies start down the path of sinning with their lustful dreaming of breasts and milk.  No free ride for you, greedy babies.

Comment #75: pennylane  on  12/19  at  08:56 AM

“As soon as they’re born, the babies start down the path of sinning”
The sin of cognition, provoked by the demon of intellect. Or was it the demon of handwriting analysis?

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/20278737/jesus_made_me_puke/7

Comment #76: me  on  12/19  at  11:01 AM

“He’s saying, “How much do I hate feminists? This much!” “
Nah. He’s saying
“what’s this?” then swaying about a bit
“hahaha. It’s Jesus on a rubber cross! HAHA!”

Comment #77: me  on  12/19  at  11:02 AM

LOL, yeah, the “no carbs” was a joke. Atkins took the last fun thing away from us fundies. *sniff*

Ellen, again, I pretty much agree with you. My only contention or nitpick or whatever is that just as the history author may not have understood he was racist but nonetheless was racist, I think that those making the abortion=Holocaust comparison may not understand that it is anti-Semitic but nonetheless it is. You don’t need to have intention to be bigoted. That’s my point.

Ok, I’m on the same page now, and I agree with you, in principle. I have a hard-on for trying to reclaim fundies (hell, I was one), so I try to shy away from words like “antisemitism” and “racism” when I feel that the person is unaware of these qualities.

In other words, I agree that a person who thinks that it was God’s plan to wipe out American Indians is racist, but I don’t think that they will recognize themselves as racist if called on it. If someone had called me that, back in the day, I would have just been confused and surprised and no further communication could have occurred.

What does do the trick is when someone pointed out to me that if God wanted the American Indians to clear out for the Europeans, he could have done it a lot more humanely, like creating a huge food surplus in western American to encourage their emigration to California to make room for the sainted Pilgrims. Or that if God really wanted the Jews to move to Israel, he didn’t need to engineer the Holocaust - an invitation from good-willed Palestinians would have been just fine.

That kind of point really made me understand that ( a ) we trying to force actual history to fit God, with a resulting terrible fit and ( b ) something was very wrong with a religion that wasn’t aghast at the idea that a divine being might be a homicidal maniac. Which is to say, there may be a god and s/he may be a homicidal maniac, but I think it’s my moral duty to be aghast, should this be so.

Oh, and I was an American Nazarene. That should narrow it down - we only have about three major universities in America. Ha ha.

Comment #78: Ellen  on  12/19  at  11:24 AM

Nah. He’s saying
“what’s this?” then swaying about a bit
“hahaha. It’s Jesus on a rubber cross! HAHA!”

He can’t be saying that, because that’s funny.

Which is to say, there may be a god and s/he may be a homicidal maniac, but I think it’s my moral duty to be aghast, should this be so.

As it is, it’s your moral duty to shut your trap and let god do what he has to do, and if he seems like a mean ogre, well, so did Daddy when he yelled at you to clean your room.

Excuse me, I need to vomit now.

Comment #79: junk science  on  12/19  at  12:07 PM

I would think a fertility clinic would be a much better example of a “death camp” than an abortion clinic, what with it housing thousands of imprisoned Embryonic Americans who are mostly destined for the drainpipe.  Analogy Fail.

Comment #80: Yawgmoth  on  12/19  at  12:36 PM

@ Ellen. That’s fine. I’m not really asking you to go call every fundie you meet a racist and an anti-Semite. But before you defend them too much (and I understand you used to be one, but remember that I have an entire clan of in-laws who currently are fundie, so it’s not like this is abstract for me), please just remember that there are REAL people on the receiving end of this. Real live Jews. Real live Indians. Real live whatever. A fundie would be suprised and confused to be called out on their bullshit? I’m sure. But how do you think we feel?

Didn’t you participate in that thread with Rob about the upskirt shots? Remember how he keep insisting on defining a misogynist as someone who sits around literally thinking “I hate bitches and I’m going to humiliate and degrade them”? Remember how we thought that was a really inadequate definition of a misogynist? I see this as the same sort of thing. (And excuse me if you weren’t part of that discussion, but I seem to remember you commenting a bunch in that thread.)

Comment #81: chingona  on  12/19  at  01:26 PM

Chingona, that’s a wonderful part, and I’m sorry. I certainly wasn’t trying to defend Warren and his ilk, although I can see how that’s probably what it looked like, in retrospect (“They aren’t REALLY racist because they don’t THINK they are racist!!!).

I was thinking from my own perspective of “what would have caused me to stop being a fundie sooner?” and thinking that bridges and not throwing around conversation-stopping words would do the trick. This isn’t a bad perspective, but you’re right that I failed to think of this from the perspective of a Jewish person hearing this clap-trap from Warren, and you’re right that they deserve to see this shit called out for what it is.

I’m sorry for my thoughtlessness, and I appreciate you pointing it out to me so well. You’ve given me a lot to think about, thank you.

Comment #82: Ellen  on  12/19  at  01:35 PM

Edit: First line should say “wonderful point” and yes, I was in the upskirting thread - you remember correctly. smile

Comment #83: Ellen  on  12/19  at  01:44 PM

No problem. In general, I think you brought a valuable perspective to the conversation. I just wanted you to think about it a little more, and I’m glad you will.

As for “stop being a fundie sooner,” do you really think there is a way to facilitate that through logic and reason? It seems to me that those who have left the fold do so through a combination of exposure to different ways of thinking and a tempermental openness to change, not through a specific line of reasoning. It always seems to me that when you try to bring forward a line of reasoning that conflicts with what someone thinks, they just shut down and stop listening or say you are wrong because you don’t love Jesus enough. (And to be fair, this problem isn’t limited to fundies. Most people believe what they believe “just because,” and aren’t very open to being challenged on it. I just consider it less problematic when those “just because” beliefs agree with my well-reasoned beliefs. wink)

Comment #84: chingona  on  12/19  at  02:07 PM

\“Certainly a good argument, Wanderer.  It should be mediocre to point out that victims of the Holocaust were real people with real lives, but since you fuckers don’t get that, it’s unfortunately necessary to do so.\”

This may be difficult for you to comprehend, but some people consider a child alive before it fully emerges from the birth canal.

Comment #85: Wanderer  on  12/19  at  02:26 PM

How about when the ‘child’ is imprisoned in a test tube?  When it’s never going to see a uterus and is going to be poured down the shower drain 5 years hence when Mommy and Daddy are tired of paying the storage bill?  Have you called your legislators about the IVF death camps, Wanderer?

Comment #86: Yawgmoth  on  12/19  at  02:32 PM

Ahh, yes Wanderer, many people think many different things.  Leaving these others aside, what is your personal opinion regarding the equivalence of abortion and the Shoah? 

Do you think that the termination of 8,000,000 consciousnesses is equivalent to the termination of zero?  Do you think that a mother that decides she will be better able to support her 3 children if she does not carry her current pregnancy to term is the moral equivalent to an S.S Hauptmann?  If the answer is yes, do you think that combined might of the Russian, English and Chinese militaries would be justified in using strategic bombing campaigns and full scale ground invasion to compel us to criminalize abortion.  Do we need to rebuild Spandau and send 1/3 of women and almost all of the Ob/Gyns in America there? 

He is not saying abortion is wrong, he is saying it is analogous to the Shoah.  That means that either he feels that the Shoah demanded no stronger response than media bleeting, protesting, and yelling at the Sonderkommando on their way to the crematoria; or that abortion requires a full scale world war, not a spiritual one, but one with tanks, bombers, war ships and the like.

Comment #87: Fatman  on  12/19  at  03:30 PM

@ Chingona,

Internet hugs all around. smile

As for “stop being a fundie sooner,” do you really think there is a way to facilitate that through logic and reason?

Oh, absolutely. I was raised fundie, through and through, but raised with a strong appreciation for (Christian-approved) science, maths, logic, debate, etc. Unlike many people who leave the fundie ways after taking a summer to read the Bible, I was not ignorant of the atrocities in the Bible - I read from cover to cover multiple times even as a very small child, but it’s amazing how consistent fundie teaching can be when you view it through the carefully crafted lenses provided for you by your parents, teachers, pastors, etc. Independent thought is not…encouraged.

Despite being judged as ‘brilliant’ by my teachers, it literally wasn’t until my late teens / early twenties that I realized that the people being massacred in the Bible all the time are, you know, supposed to be actual people. Per Slactivist, you see this SO much in the Left Behind books - “people” are dying in plane crashes all the time, but you don’t feel sorry for them because they clearly aren’t real. They are just numbers on a page - 500 passengers - not people with lives, emotions, children, dreams, careers, etc. My personal belief is that Left Behind is Bad Writing because the Bible simply is Bad Writing (IMO).

A single poke at the tangled web is all that it takes. I agree that “strident logic” doesn’t work with fundies because there’s nothing that energizes a cult member more than being marginalized, talked down to, or persecuted - they thrive on it. But a cocked head, confused look, and a simple question can do wonders. When a “curious” friend started asking me questions, I found that I had NO possible reason why God couldn’t have “made room” for the Europeans by encouraging the American Indians westward with discoveries of abundant food and natural resources. And I couldn’t for the life of me figure out why God hadn’t thought of that idea, either. Once the question was posed, I had to slowly come to grips with the fact that smallpox did seem like a pretty ghastly way to clear out the area. And once I knew EXACTLY what smallpox entailed, that was the last nail in that coffin.

(Now, yes, some people will shut down and not think about it. But in my experience, you KNOW you are shutting down, and that nags at you. You shouldn’t HAVE to shut down. There should be a reason. It should be a good one. It should be obvious. Not just to satisfy you - the good, obvious reason might gain a convert to the faith!)

Now, I agree with you that some basic empathy, cultivated by stepping out of the isolated circle certainly helps. If you’re dealing with someone who openly hates on the victims (The XYZ deserved to die because they were sinful.), then you probably won’t get anywhere. But if you’re dealing with an otherwise decent human being who just happened to be raised fundie, logic and reasoning can do wonders. Incidentally, that’s one of the reasons why fundies are so anti-intellectual. Used to, they were just against “liberal colleges” because it’s a known fact that kids who go to college generally come out not-fundie-anymore. They blamed the liberal professors and set up their own colleges. I’m living proof that fundie colleges don’t nurture fundamentalism either - and they’re looking at shutting them down, too, and just counseling kids to, I don’t know, work at Walmart forever or something. Because basic logic and learning cannot coexist easily with fundie mentality.

So, anyway, to make a long story short (too late!), I think that there are many paths from fundie-ism and logic and reasoning can definitely be one of them. The key is to just not attack the fundie when using logic (“That’s racism!”) or their “Ah, yes, they warned me that I would be discriminated against for my beliefs” smug shield comes up and all is lost. Thankfully, my smug shield has (for the most part) gone the way of the fundie-ness and I can sheepishly admit that I failed to acknowledge an important point earlier, and I thank you again. smile

Comment #88: Ellen  on  12/19  at  03:34 PM

All Rick Warren was saying is that if there is something immoral going on i.e. the Holocaust, slavery, abortion - one shouldn’t be satisfied with simply reducing it. You should set your goals on eliminating it completely.

Nowhere does he say the two are equivalent. Learn to read and get a grip. Sheesh.

Comment #89: Progressive Prince  on  12/19  at  07:31 PM

All Rick Warren was saying is that if there is something immoral going on i.e. the Holocaust, slavery, abortion - one shouldn’t be satisfied with simply reducing it. You should set your goals on eliminating it completely.

There’s this little thing called “reality”, prince

Comment #90: atheist  on  12/19  at  08:09 PM

“Don’t tell me it should be rare. That’s like saying on the Holocaust, ‘Well, maybe we could save 20 percent of the Jewish people in Poland and Germany and get them out and we should be satisfied with that,’” Warren said. “I’m not satisfied with that. I want the Holocaust ended.” 

Progressive Prince, how does one read the above quote as not listing abortion as analogous to the Holocaust?

You list the Holocaust, slavery, and abortion as three immoral things.  Is it your opinion that all three of those things need to be prevented with equal fervor?

Comment #91: Fatman  on  12/19  at  09:13 PM

Easy. He is clearly just using the Holocaust as a stand in for something immoral that he doesn’t think people should accept - like abortion. That’s not the same as saying they are the same.

You list the Holocaust, slavery, and abortion as three immoral things.  Is it your opinion that all three of those things need to be prevented with equal fervor?

No. I think animal cruelty is immoral. However I doubt I would say that it needs to be stopped as much as the genocide in Darfur. You can be against multiple immoral things simultaneously without having to think of them as being equivalently bad. Obviously.

Comment #92: Progressive Prince  on  12/19  at  10:00 PM

Of course Warren is not saying that they are identical, he is saying that they are analogous.

I agree with you that animal cruelty and genocide demand different levels of response.  Warren however gives no indication of agreeing with us on this point when it comes to abortion and genocide.

Comment #93: Fatman  on  12/20  at  06:15 AM

Thank you so much! I’m going to use this the next time someone does this in a debate.

So far I’ve been using this: http://rac.org/advocacy/issues/issuehol/  which points out that Hitler wanted to ban abortion and that, like you said, it’s demeaning to compare the death of a fetus to the deaths and suffering of millions of sentient human beings.

Comment #94: Becky  on  12/21  at  03:05 AM
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