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Next entry: Sluts will conquer the universe Previous entry: False dichotomies

Rights without perfection

Jezebel reprinted this blog post by Tasha Fierce called “As Fat As I Wanna Be”.  It’s more of a rant than a tightly argued analysis, but I think the gist of her argument is a critical one.  She’s questioning the centrality of the “Health At Every Size(HAES)” philosophy to the fat acceptance movement.  She comes out of the closet as a fat person who eats too much junk food and doesn’t exercise, and asks why it is that fat people insisting they have the health habits of long distance runners has become the centerpiece of the fat acceptance movement. 

And really, if it’s unacceptable to be a non-HAES fat then how can we say we’re accepting fat? We’re only accepting it if you make sure to do everything right but are still fat? We say fat isn’t a choice. Is it wrong if it is? I’ve gained roughly 10 pounds or so (I’m guessing by the way my clothes fit) since my surgery simply because I’ve chosen to not follow the rules. But that’s my choice and I am sure as shit not going to be shamed by either HAES enthusiasts or bigoted fatphobes.

It seems like whenever a fat person is included in a discussion in the media about the health risks of being fat they have to show their “I really do have healthy habits” card. I’m waiting for a fat person to sit there and be like, yeah, I have shitty eating habits, so what. Because really, it’s none of anyone’s business why I’m fat or what steps I take to “counteract” the fat with healthy choices.

I tend to think that much of HAES tends to be an albatross around the necks of the fat acceptance movement.  Some of the claims are perfectly scientific and useful, such as pointing out that dieting doesn’t work because the vast majority of dieters gain all the weight back that they lose, mainly because they return to their old habits as soon as they lose the weight.  Or pointing out that it’s actually really difficult and miserable to lose weight, and losing a lot of weight rapidly can be its own health hazard.  But where they lose people is when they start edging into denialist territory, denying or minimizing the link between obesity and health issues like diabetes and heart disease.  It’s true that thin people can develop these diseases through bad nutritional habits—-I’ve known a couple who have!—-but that just means the situation is complex, not that there’s no link.  The flip side of the “skinny person who got diabetes from inhaling sweets 24/7” is the uncomfortable reality the drastic and controversial measures like bariatric surgery often “cure diabetes, sometimes instantly.”  (Lest this seem far-fetched, this actually happened to the author who wrote this piece, Marc Ambinder.  It seems he’s still diabetic, but much less severely.)  And the interest HAES has in establishing that weight is a matter of genetics and not health habits will always butt up against the statistical reality that obesity is rising while American genetics stay the same, but American calorie consumption has risen to an average 2,700 calories a day, up from 2,200 40 years ago.  This, despite the fact that Americans are more sedentary than ever. 

I get why HAES has become such a centerpiece.  A lot of people use faux concerns about “health” as an excuse to bash people for being fat, and often it’s so transparent as to be comical.  For instance, there’s a certain cadre of male body nazis out there that are basically anorexia supporters, and whenever the disease they love so well is being discussed on a feminist blog, they swoop in and start trying to distract everyone by screaming about obesity, as if the only option besides starving yourself until you die of a heart attack is being fat.  (These guys creep me out, in case you can’t tell. I hope/pray they don’t have partners, because no matter how thin said partners get, I imagine it’s not good enough. Sadly, many of them seem to have positions of power in Hollywood, which is why I think some shows have the “incredible shrinking actress” problem worse than others—-rumor is that David E. Kelley, for instance, slaps the food out of the hands of his actresses.)  Or, I recall reading a music blog awhile ago and there was a thread about a Gossip show, and even though it had nothing to do with anything, a bunch of dudes showed up to express their “concern” over Beth Ditto’s “health”—-concerns that rose dramatically if Ditto did her old schtick of stripping down to her underwear on stage.  Is she less healthy with fewer clothes on?, I’d think to myself.  Imagine if someone had half as many “concerns” if someone was a suspected smoker!  If you think there would be, let’s compare the number of cheeseburger jokes that were made about Bill Clinton to the number of jokes about Barack Obama’s smoking—-yeah, they don’t even compare. 


So, I get it.  And I agree 100%.  But I don’t think the way to push back against this is to tear at the link between obesity and poor health outcomes or tear at the link between calorie consumption/exercise and obesity.  That’s really a sideshow and doesn’t strike at the heart of the bigotry against fat people that’s so pervasive.  It doesn’t do much to stop the injustices of shaming fat people in public places, the problem of there not being enough clothing options for fat people, the ugly assumptions that fat people aren’t sexual beings, or the discrimination against fat people in hiring. 

That said, until recently I had a pretty mellow attitude about HAES, even though it nibbled at my pet peeve, which is cherry-picking scientific evidence to fit an agenda.  It did seem like it had a lot of potential to help fat people overcome prejudices that really do harm their health.  HAES seems like a tool that’s being used by fat people to advocate for themselves at the doctor’s office and to enter spaces like gyms that they may otherwise feel are unwelcoming.  But unfortunately, it’s a double-edged sword, and it’s also used in service of tearing at public health initiatives like Michelle Obama’s initiative to fight childhood obesity.  The initiative was developed because of a scientific reality that fat acceptance has championed (rightfully so)—-diets don’t turn fat people into thin people.  Faced with this reality, public health advocates are putting all their attention on prevention, which should be considered a public good, but since it runs into more dubious claims of HAES about how obesity is genetic and not a matter of diet and exercise, there’s been pushback.  I suppose in a way it doesn’t matter, because fat acceptance is a small movement with very little influence and there’s exactly zero chance they’re going to be successful in rolling back a program that is, at its core, about creating more access to exercise and healthy food for people with little access.  But that’s a problem, because I do think that fat acceptance should be a bigger, more influential movement.  And that’s being stymied by claims that obesity doesn’t have much to do with calorie consumption.

I think there’s room in our culture to believe both that obesity is a public health concern that should be addressed through public health initiatives and that fat people should be treated with dignity and as full human beings, instead of being reduced to their fatness.  And that treating people with dignity should be automatic, not contingent on their eating habits, whether they’re good or not.  I think the Marc Ambinder piece I linked strikes this place very well. He doesn’t just focus on obesity as a public health problem, but also on discrimination against fat people as a human rights issue.

For the average fat person, life can be an endless chain of humiliating experiences. On a flight to Denver not too long ago, I watched as a very large woman struggled to settle into her seat. Next to her, a much skinnier man curled his lip in disgust. The woman softly asked a passing flight attendant for a seat-belt extender. The flight attendant didn’t hear her over the roar of the engines, so the woman had to ask again, and this time, everyone looked at her. Grocery shopping, eating at restaurants, going to the movies, having drinks at a crowded bar—for the fat person, these are situations to be negotiated and survived, not enjoyed…..

Unfortunately, our culture reinforces this anxiety by turning obesity into pornography. This is not surprising. Obesity has become not just a scientific fad of sorts, generating intense research, curiosity, and public concern, but also a commercial gold mine that draws on the same kind of audiences that used to go to circus carnivals a century ago to peer at freakishly obese men and women.

All decent people should really be horrified by shows like “The Biggest Loser”, which engage in just the sort of objectification that he’s talking about. 

And really, at the end of the day, believing that it’s irrelevant how someone got fat is not only more secure ground to argue from, it’s more politically radical.  America is sliding perilously towards a place where perfection is expected of people, especially if they’re in a traditionally oppressed group, in order for those people to feel entitled to their full human rights.  It’s the model minority problem.  It’s the reason that we have “perfect girl” syndrome, where young women who have a lot of privilege and success feel that the bare minimum for their acceptance into their world is effortless perfection.  Can we really say that human rights have been achieved if you have to meet unrealistically high standards to get them?

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:28 AM • (185) Comments

I think part of the problem with the scientific claims that HAES makes is that we act like “fat people” and
“thin people” are these two totally discrete categories. An obese person likely never will be able to be hollywood thin, some people are more genetically disposed to weight gain, and there have always been and will always be people who are overweight, regardless of what kind of national lifestyle we lead. However, if people are given the opportunity to move around and eat good foods, they may not get thin, but they will be thinner and they may not be healthy, but they will be healthier.

As a former fat kid though, I know just how scarring bullying against fat people can be. And disguising bullying as concern for health makes the concept of health seem ridiculous and unappealing.

Comment #1: alysia  on  05/15  at  11:33 AM

I think a lot of the slide into scientific cherrypicking with HAES happens because there’s so much scientific cherrypicking on the “of course you can lose weight!” side. The majority of our culture’s interest in diet and exercise is tied up with the idea that you can turn a fat person into a thin person with green vegetables and jogging (or, more honestly, that you can turn a person who’s unhappy with her body into a person who is happy with her body through green vegetables and jogging). This is not borne out in studies, as you note, so I’m not surprised that some of the pushback glosses over preventative effects; no one harassed fat people because they’re worried about fetal stunting, after all.

On a personal level, I am a big fan of HAES; I suffered from American-standard body dysmorphia and food issues for most of my youth, and HAES really gave me back to myself with its insistence that what matters to my health is what I’m doing, not how I look to other people. For instance, I have a knee injury that prevents me from exercising regularly when it flares up; when I was younger I was convinced that it was the wages of sin for eating toast and having a body and that I should just not eat until I didn’t have a knee injury. HAES-flavored body acceptance got me to a proper PT who explained that the problem was misalignment and prescribed me useful stretches so that I can ride a bike again. So I think HAES is an extremely useful psychological tool for helping individuals improve where they are with regards to health if they want to improve their health.

As far as prevention, I think a combination of supply-side improvements and addressing real food security issues - along with making public provision for affordable, accessible, enjoyable physical activity for everyone - are commendable efforts. I also think fat acceptance activists who are concerned that targeting childhood obesity will result in targeting obese children have a point, especially since there’s every evidence that childhood food restriction backfires. (Heck, some epidemiologists are predicting a bump in fetal stunting - which leads to high BMIs later in life - because of the whole Fit Pregnancy phenomenon.)

Comment #2: purpleshoes  on  05/15  at  11:37 AM

Good point on the discrete categories thing, alysia. I think perfection mongering really makes the situation worse for fat people, because there’s this sense that anything short of dramatic weight loss isn’t good enough.  Again, I blame what Ambinder called “obesity porn” for this problem in no small part.

Also good point about the scientific cherrypicking on weight loss claims.  Hell, I’d say it’s gone beyond that into openly lying. 

I definitely sympathize with the need for a lens/tool for fat people to embrace health maintenance that they’re often shamed from.  What I think a lot of fat shamers don’t get (and don’t want to get) is that shaming someone for being fat because of “concern” for their health is actually counterproductive.  Go into any gym, for instance, and you’ll immediately notice that the ratio of thin to fat people is not only reverse of what it is on the outside, it’s reverse on steroids.  I work out pretty much every day and I barely see anyone at the gym that’s even overweight, much less fat.  And that bothers me, because I know that a big reason fat people avoid gyms is that they feel shamed there.  Which is fucked up beyond belief.  Being fat shouldn’t make someone feel like they’re not entitled to work out.  Even if working out doesn’t lead to weight loss, it certainly leads to improved health.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/15  at  11:51 AM

I’m lazy and fat mostly because I’m depressed (and otherwise mentally ill), which I have been all my life and it’s gotten much worse. (Untreatably so, apparently, and sure as hell adding antipsychotics to my antidepressants only made me fatter.) So I eat junk food because it makes me feel temporarily less depressed, I don’t go out much because I’m depressed (and because I’m tired of people staring because I’m fat, so, thanks, that helps a lot, shamers), and I’m not convinced, what with the depression, I’m going to still be alive at the end of the three years of dieting it would take to lose the weight I need to lose, so why even bother to start a diet? Plus I’ve seen women lose a lot of weight, they still have extra skin, and God knows they still get mocked for being fat. I don’t think I have the kind of courage it takes to lose a hundred fifty pounds only to still have people mock me for being fat.

All that said, okay, if you want to look at me and think I’m lazy and have lousy eating habits, swell. Your prerogative. It’s not helping me but if it helps you the same way a Fran’s grey salt caramel helps me, I guess I’m in no position to stop you.

What I really do resent is the apparent automatic assumption that fat people are stupid. I dunno where it comes from, but skinny people constantly talk to me like I’ve got brain damage. Fat, lazy, crappy eating habits, unsightly, inconvenient on mass transportation, okay, I put my hand up to all that. It’s probably true, assuming people want to generalize to gratify their inner bully. But I’m not stupid, and I’m not sure why being overweight makes even well-meaning people assume I am.

The closest I can come to the thought process in play is: If she was smart, she’d know that being fat is ugly and unhealthy, and she’d know eating junk makes her fat, so being fat must be proof that she’s stupid. Is there more to it than that?

Comment #4: D. Sidhe  on  05/15  at  11:53 AM

I think part of the problem with the scientific claims that HAES makes is that we act like “fat people” and “thin people” are these two totally discrete categories.

I think this is why I kind of have a problem with Marc Ambinder’s anecdote that Amanda highlighted.  I feel like it’s suggestive that, because it’s wrong to act disgusted about a person who is slightly less than Hollywood thin, we have to act like there is no point at which obesity really does become a problem not just for the person in question but for those around them.  If a person on a plane is so big that they literally cannot use a seat belt (and are undoubtedly spilling over into their neighbor’s seat and/or the aisle) I think it’s unfair to suggest that everyone around them has to pretend that it isn’t a problem.  It’s like suggesting that, because all people sometimes sweat and develop a little body odor, we have to shut up and happily accept sitting next to a person who hasn’t showered in a month and who just peed their pants, because hey, people with less-than-perfect hygiene are people too.  There are so many examples of times where others inappropriately express disgust towards very slightly (or not at all) overweight people that I don’t understand why Ambinder would instead use an example where disgust seems like a natural response.

Maybe it’s just that the story he recounts reminds me of this: http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/unusual-attitude/2009/11/passenger-creates-big-debate-a.html

Comment #5: Midwest_Product  on  05/15  at  11:54 AM

re: “the problem of there not being enough clothing options for fat people”

I think there’s even a problem with this for average-sized people.  Which is particularly bizarre in places like suburban/rural malls because it would definitely be better business to be able to serve a higher amount of potential shoppers.

Comment #6: Dan Watson  on  05/15  at  11:58 AM

Midwest, my feeling about it is that it’s one of those instances where you really should put yourself in another person’s shoes.  However uncomfortable they may make you, it’s a pittance compared to how uncomfortable they are.  I realize there’s probably a point where someone is so fat that they really do take up two seats on a plane, but that’s exceedingly rare and, in my experience, women often get more abuse for it than men, even though fat men tend to take up more space than fat women.  So it’s not about actual space used most of the time.  The whole Kevin Smith thing really showed how silly the situation gets.  Kevin Smith is fat, sure.  But he doesn’t take up two seats.  The picture he took of himself on the plane when he did get a seat demonstrated that neatly.  I’d love to sit next to Kevin Smith on a plane, if he’d actually talk to me. 

What I really do resent is the apparent automatic assumption that fat people are stupid. I dunno where it comes from, but skinny people constantly talk to me like I’ve got brain damage.

I’ve never understood that one, either.  There’s probably some interesting psychological research into how negative stereotypes cluster.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/15  at  11:59 AM

On a side note: there was an interesting review done recently arguing that fat, while linked to obesity, diabetes, metabolic syndrome, yada yada yada, may actually be serving a protective role rather than an inflammatory one. link.

The idea that fat people can only feel accepted if they toss out the “I exercise and try to lose weight” card is bullshit.  They should be treated with respect and dignity—like, you know, people—even if they exclusively subsist on ho-hos and never get off the couch.

Comment #8: t-ster  on  05/15  at  11:59 AM

What about the skinny people who aren’t inhaling sweets at an alarming weight that are still diabetic?  Diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol aren’t a fat/thin/poor nutrition problem exclusively; there’s still a huge genetic component that has nothing to do with behavior.

Comment #9: Dez  on  05/15  at  11:59 AM

myfavorite, I think one of the reasons average sizes are hard to find is they get sold off first.  At least, that’s what I’ve heard from people who sell shoes—-the average size of a woman’s shoe is something like an 8-9, and that’s never in stock.  And it’s because they basically buy two of every size, but the most common ones get sold off first.  I imagine it’s the same in clothing stores.  They get two of zeros, twos, fours, sixes, etc. and unless you’re there when they pull it off the truck, the only sizes left when you get there are zeroes and twos.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/15  at  12:03 PM

Sure, Dez.  But the image that’s always floated is of the thin person with poor health habits, and I was agreeing that they do exist.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/15  at  12:04 PM

First of all the fact that Amanda said I had a good point makes me feel like a celebrity.

Second, Midwest, “disgust” is the natural reaction to someone who doesn’t fit well in airplane seats? Not like, mild annoyance? 

Your analogy to the shower doesn’t hold much water either. A person can take a shower and instantly be clean. For a person who is severely overweight, weightloss is a process that can take years. If a person is that overweight, they will be overweight next week and will be overweight in three months regardless of what actions they take. Making someone feel terrible about themselves for something they absolutely cannot fix in the short term does no one favors.

Comment #12: alysia  on  05/15  at  12:06 PM

Amanda, can you point me to studies in peer-reviewed journals that show a link between weight and health outcomes? I’ve been doing research lately on this issue for my sociology class (I’m starting to teach about the construction of “epidemics”) and what I’ve discovered is that the reputable science on this issue really does show that fat acts a protection against some diseases. As for the reverse, the science looks really shaky.

Comment #13: tcs1  on  05/15  at  12:11 PM

I recall reading it from one of the actresses on the show. It’s just been awhile, but it’s more than a rumor.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/15  at  12:12 PM

Perhaps instead of asking me, tcs, you should choose reputable sources like the Centers for Disease Control, the American Medical Association, and the Mayo Clinic.  Those are good places to start, and I’m sure they’ll be super helpful if you bring research inquiries.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/15  at  12:17 PM

Diabetes, high blood pressure, and high cholesterol aren’t a fat/thin/poor nutrition problem exclusively; there’s still a huge genetic component that has nothing to do with behavior.

I once reviewed the autopsy of a man who had been a construction worker before he retired on disability, he had died of a heart attack at the age of 44 or so.

He wasn’t obese, he had the musculature you’d expect for someone in his profession, and he also had gallstones.

His basic problem?  Hereditary hyperlipidemia, his blood fat was too high because of his genes.

Comment #16: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/15  at  12:22 PM

Totally agree with your point, btw, that fat acceptance isn’t really acceptance if it’s premised on being the right kind of fat (fit and healthy and fat).

Comment #17: tcs1  on  05/15  at  12:27 PM

To the HAES people: Sure you’re okay now, but someday you’ll get a minor injury or illness, something that would barely slow down a slimmer person, and it will incapacitate you. You won’t be able to haul yourself out of a bed or out of a chair.  I’ve been an EMT on an ambulance crew and I work in a clinic, and I’ve seen it a thousand times.  And it will effect the care you’re given. Specialized care and equipment is sometimes necessary and it is not always immediately available.

Comment #18: pablo  on  05/15  at  12:35 PM

For some reason reading this reminded me of an incident which occurred about 12 years ago.  I worked with this young woman Janine, and she was about 75 lbs overweight, give or take a few.  And she went to the doctor because she had the flu.  We all had it, it was tearing through the office.  And the doctor told her, well, you’ve got to lose weight.  You’re far too heavy. 

She was there because she had the flu. 

And I always wondered what fucking good does it do to tell someone who has the flu, or a cold, or whatever, how fat they are?  I would think all that does is make it much less likely they’ll ever go to the doctor.  And what exactly, is the cost of that to their long-term health?

Comment #19: JennyLI  on  05/15  at  12:46 PM

Yeah, I’ve read some of “the literature” that the CDC, AMA etc. rely on. And much of it seems shaky to me, and certainly the line of the AMA regarding obesity cherry picks from scientific studies. I guess I ask you because I appreciate your respect for good science as well as your understanding that science is not produced in a vacuum.

Love this site. I’m a long-time reader of your posts and the comments.

Comment #20: tcs1  on  05/15  at  12:46 PM

pablo, propose something more effective for that situation besides regular physical activity, paying attention to your hunger cues, eating a variety of healthy foods including fruits and vegetables, and getting regular medical care. That’s what HAES encourages you to do; that’s why Amanda’s arguing that it’s an incomplete provision of dignity, because Health at Every Size is a physical fitness program centered around a specific book and you shouldn’t have to follow a fitness program to be treated as a person.

Also, you’re weird and misinformed for thinking everyone who subscribes to a particular fitness program is or is not morbidly obese, regardless of whether morbidly obese is a) a health problem or b) a health problem that will be magically solved by you scolding all HAES adherents about their impending tragic couchdeath.

Comment #21: purpleshoes  on  05/15  at  12:52 PM

Interestingly Purpleshoes, I had a cancer scare last year, and I researched this whole fruits and vegetables thing.  Cause I eat a lot of them.

And studies are now showing little or no difference in cancer rates between people who eat a lot of fruits and vegetables and those who don’t.

What they do show is that the kind of fruits and vegetables you eat matter.

People who eat 4 servings or more of cruciferous vegetables a week, do show significantly lower rates of cancer.  Broccoli is the superfood of cancer prevention.  Cabbage, cauflower, brussel sprouts, kale, that’s abut it. 

People who eat specifically citrus fruits, have significantly lower risks of stomach cancer. 

Anyway, what I gathered was, you need to be eating a lot of broccoli, oranges, grapefruits, and berries.  Otherwise it doesn’t matter how thin you are or how healthy you think you eat, your cancer risk is the same as the everyone else’s: high.  Chemicals, pollutions, plastics, cell phones, whatever, we’re at fairly high risk.

Of course, heart disease, that’s another story.  I’m just trying to point out that some people who think they are really healthy, not so much.  I know my eyes were really opened when I read this stuff last year.  My favorite vegetable used to be spinach.  I have found a way to love broccili.  Even though it’s my least favorite vegetable.

Comment #22: JennyLI  on  05/15  at  01:13 PM

purpleshoes- You’re right. My comment was misdirected.  I mistook the HAES people with those advocates for fat acceptance who claim that raising issues of health is “fatphobic”.

Comment #23: pablo  on  05/15  at  01:14 PM

This feeds into a larger issue I’ve been seeing in the health care debate, of tea-party types arguing that they “shouldn’t have to pay for the health care of people who won’t take care of themselves.”  That we shouldn’t have universal access to health care, because fat people, smokers, sedentary folks don’t DESERVE any health care.  They seem to have this overwhelming fear and anger that someone, somewhere, might get some benefit they don’t “deserve.”  Without really thinking about (a) how you’re supposed to determine, in designing programs, who is deserving and who is not, (b) whether this should apply also to their relatives/friends who have less-than-perfect health habits (no matter how healthy you are, I’m sure you care about someone who isn’t so perfect), (c) whether they themselves are truly “deserving” of all the benefits they get, and (d) whether it’s really good public policy to deny a benefit to a multitude of people that even you would consider deserving just to make sure no one undeserving ever gets anything.

Comment #24: CalliopeJane  on  05/15  at  01:19 PM

But what movement doesn’t have people who take things to far?  If you can support feminism despite the anti-porn cranks, why should HAES be dismissed because of the anti-childhood obesity program folk?  HAES truly is empowering at the individual level, allowing people to take control of their lives and improve their health.  What I see in the anti-Obama program folk is people who are very invested in sparing other children the pain they went through in their school days. 

They do have a point - we really don’t know how to fight childhood obesity.  The program in Arkansas about 10 years ago didn’t lower obesity rates, but the follow up report showed that the number of students who vomited or used laxatives to control weight doubled, along with other alarming rises in disordered eating.

What I wish that Michelle Obama had done was admitted the truth - that we don’t know how to make fat people thin - and thus must put the focus on the sort of healthy eating and exercise that keeps weight stable.  (To those who will argue against this - show me the study of an intervention where the majority of obese people get down to and maintain a normal weight, keeping in mind that bariatric surgery has a 13-15% 10 year death rate.)

What I’ve become convinced of is that obesity research is trapped its current model, which dates from the Victorian era.  It’s like the Freudians arguing into the 60s and 70s that autism was caused by poor mothering - they demanded that reality conform to their beliefs.  The “diet and exercise” model of weight loss has been disproven over and over again, but no influential person is out there denouncing it.  So activists run around, sounding like they are barking mad.  (An example, the 3500 calories = 1 pound weight loss or gain notion came from a dietician who had never worked with obese patients.  It has been tested repeatedly and never duplicated in human subjects.  Yet it shows up everywhere in diet articles and guidelines.)

tcs - I did research on this for a class project a couple of years ago, and the best book for getting a handle on it is Gina Kolata’s Rethinking Thin.  She follows a group of motivated people participating in a diet study at the University of Pennsylvania, interspersed with chapters about the current state of research into obesity and weight loss.  What she discovered is that researchers in other areas (for example, psychology or cancer) who looked at obesity as a secondary factor were coming up with very different conclusions from obesity researchers.  For example, if you look at people’s level of “emotional eating,” it has no correlation with their weight.  Despite this, diet expert after diet expert goes on about curbing emotional eating as the secret to weight loss.

What made the biggest impression on me was the studies done in Europe on cancer risk.  They had people’s full medical records as a dataset, and when they separated out having been on a calorie-restricted diet as separate from weight, the dieters were shown to be the group at greatest risk for all sorts of health problems normally associated with overweight.  In America, the population the dieters and the obese are pretty much the same people and no attempt is made in research to separate out the two for comparing risk levels.

Comment #25: East of Weston  on  05/15  at  01:23 PM

The closest I can come to the thought process in play is: If she was smart, she’d know that being fat is ugly and unhealthy, and she’d know eating junk makes her fat, so being fat must be proof that she’s stupid. Is there more to it than that?

Oh, yeah, there is.  People who hate fat people associate fat with women, poor people, and minorities, and they think that all those groups are stupid, weak, and humiliated, therefore humiliating to come in contact with.  The taint is so strong that even though the safest way to be fat is to be a white man in a very expensive well-cut suit, even fat rich white guys still get a bit of the spillover. 

I also think it is genuinely impossible to separate hate of fat women from hate of adult women, period.  That is not because of any specious and offensive equation of curves with “reality,” but because breasts are, literally, mostly made of fat.  A thin and angular woman still has breasts made of fat.  A thin and muscular woman who menstruates has more fat in her than a man her size.  And protesting that biology made it this way is no help; to the fat-hater, it’s merely admitting women are biologically fated to be more disgusting than men.

Comment #26: sophonisba  on  05/15  at  01:23 PM

I’m a firm adherent to the notion that the health of a person can’t be assumed based on the weight of that person, and that there is great variation in the bodies humans will have, based on genetics.  I see this in my sister and myself.  We’ve both been overweight and skinny at various times in our lives, but she has the stockier body of our dad’s dad’s side, and I have the rangier frame of our dad’s mom’s side. 

The idea, however, that obesity is genetic is laughable to me.  If it were, then people in Europe would be obese at the same rate as white Americans, and they aren’t.  They eat better, and even more importantly, they live in societies which are more encouraging of routine exercise, because their cities and small towns are made for walking.  (Also, Americans generally have no idea how much or what they’re eating.)  Obesity is a public health issue, and that’s why other people’s obesity is, in fact, our business—just like smoking has been.  This should not, and does not, excuse fat shaming, of individuals or of groups.  For one thing, it’s counterproductive, and it’s cruel besides.  It’s also, as Amanda pointed out, a feminist issue.  Moreover, poor eating habits often result from other underlying issues, such as depression, itself a public health issue which goes massively untreated, and from social factors such as class, which is more determinative of people’s health than in Europe because we’re so stratified and unequal.

It’s a conundrum, because how do you avoid fat shaming when you have such a dangerous public health problem, that affects the health care we all receive, and the cost of that health care?  I don’t know, but it sounds like Michelle Obama’s initiative might be a start.  It’s easier to get kids involved in a public health initiative, because the vast majority are in public schools, and you can promote health at all sizes without, I hope, singling any kids out specifically.

Comment #27: BetsyD  on  05/15  at  01:27 PM

@25

Not to mention that the people with health insurance already are paying for health care for overweight people, smokers,  daredevils, and all the other people who participate in behavior that could possibly wind up in hospitalization.

Comment #28: alysia  on  05/15  at  01:44 PM

East of Weston, I’ve got one study that shows that TB will melt those pounds right off.
And that’s all my literature review got me, though I only spent like one morning on it.

BetsyD, in general stockier builds come with malnutrition in utero, as a baby, and as a toddler, which is one reason why poverty can be predictive of obesity. This tends to confound the issue by producing whole populations with similar builds where it’s hard to differentiate genetics and growth faltering due to malnutrition.

Comment #29: purpleshoes  on  05/15  at  01:44 PM

Wow, the anti-porn cranks?  I had no idea I was a crank, nor even that other feminists considered me one.  Huh.

Comment #30: JennyLI  on  05/15  at  01:48 PM

If a person on a plane is so big that they literally cannot use a seat belt (and are undoubtedly spilling over into their neighbor’s seat and/or the aisle) I think it’s unfair to suggest that everyone around them has to pretend that it isn’t a problem.

Certainly, that would be unfair to a person being potentially squished up against the fuselage by a very, very, very overweight fellow passenger. However, I fly a lot, and I have on several occasions watched scenarios where an overweight or otherwise bulky individual is getting in the way of another passenger.

You know what NEVER happens? The individual whose space is being encroached upon NEVER addresses the overweight passenger, and this failure of communication is what turns these situations into A Big Deal. I’ve seen the encroached-upon party ask for a flight attendant and ask for a seat change right in front of the offending party; I’ve seen people call upon their fellow passengers to amend the situation via shame; I’ve even seen a woman talk to her small child out-loud about the situation for the edification of everyone else sitting nearby, again seeking recourse via shame - but no one ever turns to their overweight seat mate and says, “Hey, you’re kind of a big guy - do you think there is something we could do with the armrests to make us more comfortable?”

Now, I’m sure that this does actually happen, and the reason that I don’t see it is because when it happens, no one makes it into a big deal. The passengers affected resettle themselves as comfortably as possible and everyone gets on with their lives. But the fact that I’ve watched a contrasting scenario unfold many times tells me that there is something incorrect about the way we treat people who carry around extra weight. What Tasha, the Jezebel commentariat, and Amanda have all recognized is that, by creating even an imaginary category of “fat” which is blamable, we facilitate bigotry. (The concept that blame is always automatically deserving of impromptu vigilante punishment is disturbing, but that doesn’t make it less common.) We allow people the option of dehumanizing any large person they encounter on the basis of perceived fault, and the unsurprising result is that your average person is willing to treat such a person badly, or even with cruelty, once they have been personally inconvenienced.

For no reason should you ever put your own comfort on an 8 hour journey below anyone else’s comfort. However, having the basic humanity to recognize that your large seat mate is probably also uncomfortable, and embarrassed on top of it all, goes a long way to diffuse such a situation.

Comment #31: Seize  on  05/15  at  01:48 PM

purpleshoes, that’s exactly why I favor a more European-style social democracy, with more attention and resources given to alleviating social inequality.  But a social democracy with an emphasis on public health would impinge on, say, the freedom to eat junk food.  Either we can be communitarian or individualistic, it’s awfully tough to do both at once.

Comment #32: BetsyD  on  05/15  at  02:02 PM

I think “Rights Without Perfection” needs to become a rallying cry / protest sign / t-shirt.

Comment #33: Ranylt  on  05/15  at  02:05 PM

One of the reasons that I joined Planet Fitness is because there *are* a fair number of overweight people (and middle aged people) who use my branch - I’d say about a third.  There’s a pretty strict “no judging” policy directed at the weightlifter types to discourage mocking of the overweight and out of shape.  The atmosphere is pretty low key, too, which is why I’ve been going 3-4 times per week since late January.  I haven’t lost much weight (nor am I out to), but I’m stronger, my wind is better, and my muscle tone is much better.  At my age (49 going on 50) and with my health concerns (a bad knee, balance problems, and a never-treated rotator cuff tear in one shoulder) it’s nice to find a place where I can exercise at my pace.

Comment #34: Ellid  on  05/15  at  02:06 PM

tcs, in all honesty, I’ve looked at those occasional studies that show some benefits of fat, but it seems that most of them are referring to people who are simply overweight.  I’ve never seen anything suggesting there’s any benefit to being obese.

East of Weston, I’m not saying it should be dismissed, but I think that it should be critiqued.  As a personal tool, I think it’s useful and the unscientific aspects of it don’t contribute to its usefulness, as far as I can tell. My point is that the flaws in HAES really do prevent the good stuff fat acceptance brings to the table from being accepted.  Getting tarred as obesity denialists isn’t going to be very helpful at all to fat acceptance. 

On the doctor issue: I really don’t think doctors who tell someone who comes in for the flu to lose weight are trying to be assholes.  It’s the trend now in medicine—-probably driven by the lack of good health insurance in this country—-to use any and every occasion to talk about larger issues with a patient.  Like you go in for a Pap smear, and they screen you for domestic violence.  It’s often a really good thing.  But when it comes to the weight issue, it becomes an occasion for shame and scaring someone away from the doctor.  Perhaps health care reform, with the no copay for check-ups requirement, will influence the situation.  But if the woman got treatment for the flu alongside the advice to lose weight, then I suspect the doctor was just doing the “now that I have you” thing.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/15  at  02:25 PM

but no one ever turns to their overweight seat mate and says, “Hey, you’re kind of a big guy - do you think there is something we could do with the armrests to make us more comfortable?”

No, I’m positive there are plenty of people obliviously rude enough to say that, because there are plenty of people who learned that the universal prohibition against commenting on strangers’ bodies to their faces doesn’t apply to fat people, women, and the disabled. 

Me, when I want to put up the armrest, I turn to my seatmate and say, “Hey, mind if I put up the armrest?”  I recommend it.

Comment #36: sophonisba  on  05/15  at  02:26 PM

Also, the public transportation thing—-which includes planes—-is such a Trojan horse for shaming fat people.  Since the Kevin Smith incident, I’ve spent a lot of time comparing fat people using public transportation to other kinds of folks who take up room, and they don’t really take up that much room.  Especially not when compared to men who feel that if they’re not airing out their balls every second of the day, then the world will end.  I sit next to fat people all the time, and never once have they bothered me as much as a dude airing out his precious cojones.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/15  at  02:32 PM

Some of the claims are perfectly scientific and useful, such as pointing out that dieting doesn’t work because the vast majority of dieters gain all the weight back that they lose, mainly because they return to their old habits as soon as they lose the weight.

This isn’t technically true.  A lot of people find that they MAINTAIN their level of caloric intake during a diet, they’ll start to plateau and gain back weight.

I like Healthy at Any Size because I am fat.  I’m 5’5” and 200 pounds.  I’m obese.  I also have great cholesterol, great blood work, and near-perfect blood pressure.  But, then again, I do in fact think it’s genetic for me- I come from a long line of fat women.

Comment #38: Antigone  on  05/15  at  02:51 PM

[Fat people] should be treated with respect and dignity—like, you know, people—even if they exclusively subsist on ho-hos and never get off the couch.

Um, no. Why should I treat someone with respect and dignity when they can’t treat themselves with respect and dignity? This applies to people of all weights.

I do understand that some people with naturally stockier builds have a serious, and often justified, bone to pick with a society that treats them badly. And anyone who hassles an overweight person because they’re in a gym is both a serious asshole and totally stupid. And that there are plenty of overweight people who are in otherwise fine health, and plenty of thin people who are in dreadful health.

But this whole “fat acceptance” thing goes from zero to a million on the absurdity scale in the blink of an eye. It’s a good thing to make it clear to what extent general build is genetically determined, and a good thing to point out how the way we structure our society toward maximum corporate profit leads to shitty foods and sedentary lifestyles and thence to people who might just be stocky becoming plain old fat. But there’s a giant difference between addressing issues such as these and pretending that enormously obese people are just fine and dandy the way they are. You have the freedom to sit on the couch and eat Ho-Ho’s all day, just like I have the freedom to think Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to the mall. But neither one of us deserves any respect or dignity.

Comment #39: felagund  on  05/15  at  02:52 PM

I think, quite frankly, that HAES makes people take Fat acceptance less seriously. Because, apparently, there is no one in Left Blogistan who is fat because of there own behavior. The movement seems to be split between people who say it’s not their fault, and people who claim, against all evidence, that obesity is not unhealthy. I’m a fatty (235#), and even I can’t take that BS seriously, and I’m not the only fat person I know who has a problem with it. It’s embarrassing, the people who claim to be speaking for us, because it makes people think that fat people aren’t living in the real world.

It’s simple. When my weight was 255#, I had high cholesterol, blood pressure, and sugar. Those numbers have all improved significantly with 20# weight loss, and when I weighed 165 those numbers were all perfect. And it works the same way for all my friends.

There may be some healthy 300#  pound people, but it’s a vanishingly small number. (Although I am sure 10 people will pop up here and say they are.)

Comment #40: Bruce from Missouri  on  05/15  at  02:58 PM

So do you think that the obesity crisis is a product of American fatties having too damned much dignity? As a former fat kid I can tell you that i lots weight IN SPITE of people who thought I deserved no respect or dignity, not because of them. And a fat elementary schooler is reminded every fucking day that nobody considers the obese just dandy.

Comment #41: alysia  on  05/15  at  03:04 PM

From my experience I really think that untying a person’s (especially a woman’s) weight from their value as a human being is a vital step in making healthier choices.

Comment #42: alysia  on  05/15  at  03:06 PM

Um, no. Why should I treat someone with respect and dignity when they can’t treat themselves with respect and dignity? This applies to people of all weights.

Because even if you deign someone as a person of insufficiently high self-esteem, they’re still a person.  You seem to imply people with low self-esteem deserve to be treated like crap by the rest of the world.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/15  at  03:09 PM

“tcs, in all honesty, I’ve looked at those occasional studies that show some benefits of fat, but it seems that most of them are referring to people who are simply overweight.  I’ve never seen anything suggesting there’s any benefit to being obese. “

Well, I rather think that depends on how you define obese.  A big part of the problem is that the general assumption (by most news outlet discussing such studies) is that BMI is not completely full of BS.

I’m not going to say that me becoming healthier isn’t going to involve a certain amount of me becoming thinner.  In fact, I know from experience that (in my case at least) it most definitely will.  However, BMI doesn’t reflect the fact that this doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily going to change my *weight* all that much.  Again, I know this from experience: the most dramatic change when I have the time to exercise regularly, especially at first, is my gaining muscle and becoming thinner but not really losing much weight, often times not any at all.

What exercising regularly and watching what I eat almost certainly will not do is make me weigh so little that my wii fit will stop saying “that’s obese!” based on my BMI and the categories that whole fucked up system uses.  I know this because I’ve done the math: I could lost the entire 50 lbs it will take to bring me back to the least I’ve ever weighed as an adult or even older teen (and let me tell you, I was very damn healthy at that point and had a lot of free time to spare on exercising and watching what I ate) and I would only just barely squeek by into “normal weight” category.

I’m fairly certain that not only could I get to the point where I could pass, say, the FBI fitness test without ever weighing so little that I would be considered “normal weight,” but also that in order to get to the point where I am solidly in the “normal weight” category and not bordering on obese (and therefore getting lectures from my doctor) I would actually have to be so unhealthy that I likely wouldn’t have the muscle or energy to pass that FBI fitness test.

I very much appreciate the point that one should not have to be perfect or healthy to or even trying to be either to deserve diginity.  But with regards to the idea that “obese” is really not all that unhealthy of a state to be in - my impression of those studies and the HAES ppl that discuss them is that their main point is usually that the way that we define “obese” is severely fucked up (and that the cause and affect of “obese” and “unhealthy” aren’t always going the way people assume they are), not that there is no point at which being obese affects one’s health.

Comment #44: jennygadget  on  05/15  at  03:12 PM

Also, as alysia notes, the way to build up a person’s self-esteem so they can feel empowered to take care of themselves is NOT through bashing them.  You know, I can think of two fat people I’ve known that up and decided to become jocks one day for the hell of it—-one bicycling and one running.  And they didn’t make this empowering choice because they felt bad about themselves.  They’re people I’d say have relatively high self-esteem, and are extroverts with a lot of friends.  Not coincidentally, they’re both male, because let’s face it, it’s easier to be a fat man than a fat woman.  (Though it’s still oppressive and fat men do face discrimination.)  And they threw themselves into their new hobbies and not coincidentally, lost a lot of weight—-neither is even really fat anymore. 

Which isn’t to say that I think every fat person should become a jock.  That’s just silly and unrealistic and not for everyone.  But the point is this—-the shame cycle encourages bad health habits, and what HAES would ideally do is give people the tools to say fuck it all to the shame cycle.  And I think it can, but it would do a better job if it got away from some of the unscientific crutches.

Comment #45: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/15  at  03:18 PM

BetsyD, I promise you can get Doritos in Europe. In European countries with excellent nutrition, you can (or could, until US business practices had their evil way) have an hour to eat your lunch, and therefore were usually not lunching on Doritos. Time-deprivation and sleep deprivation are two strong predictors of poor eating habits.

Felagund, why should you respect someone who makes personal choices you disagree with? Because people have worth or they don’t, full stop. Jeez, inherent worth and dignity shouldn’t be such a hard argument on the left.

And again, for the group, HAES is a fitness plan that holds that your healthy weight is the weight you are when your personal behavior is “healthy”, where “healthy” is defined under HAES as observing your appetite cues (people have noted that appetite cues are more or less effective from person to person, and I take the criticism as given), eating a good range of foods, and being reasonably physically active. HAES doesn’t claim that every person is healthy at every weight, just that “healthy” behavior can be predictive of health outcomes even if it isn’t predictive of weight loss. I am on board with arguing that HAES adherence shouldn’t be a requirement for human dignity any more than eating (vegetarian/the Atkins diet/only orange foods on Sundays) should be, but I wish people would stick to arguing about something that actually exists.

(“Healthy” in quotes because I believe everyone who jumps in at this point to note that there are points in human life where ice cream might be more necessary than brassicus - chronic medical malnutrition, for example - and that for people with fibromyalgia “healthy” activity sure ain’t daily jogs).

Comment #46: purpleshoes  on  05/15  at  03:19 PM

And then there’s the problem of hormone therapy, hormones in meat and milk, and since every woman on the Pill pees, hormones in our drinking water.
http://www.copperwiki.org/index.php/Growth_Hormones_in_Food

http://www.thirdage.com/nutrition/added-hormones-in-meat-and-dairy-do-they-affect-health-and-if-so-how
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=1h&oq=hormones&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS303US303&q=hormones+in+water+supply+tap

Exercise and diet were always effective in my monitoring my weight—until I was treated with hormones.

In my personal experience, every exposure to hormones as medication resulted in the same effect: weight gain of 10-30 pounds within a matter of weeks, and my breasts went up a cup and a size.

And I’ve talked with more than one woman who had a similar problem after being treated with steroids.

Normal dieting and exercise had no effect: only going to unhealthy extremes peeled some of the weight off, and even then, my body would fight back and I’d gain back most when I returned to a healthful level of diet and exercise.

I may be overly sensitive to hormones, but the obesity explosion came about in this country since it became usual to fatten cows with hormones, the use of the birth control pill, and hormones in our drinking water.

High fructose corn syrup in processed foods may be a contributing factor, as also diet and exercise. But my poisonous experience with hormones leads me to believe they may also be a factor.
  Obscenely early developement and menstruation of girls starting at 9 has also been posited as a result of hormones in the food supply, maybe they’re the canary in the coal mine

Also: met a personal trainer this year who claimed that in his experience 50 pound loss was all it is possible to take off, and keep off.

He claimed that anything over 50, and metabolism set in to reverse weight loss.

Comment #47: judybrowni  on  05/15  at  03:26 PM

Here is an old Carol Burnett skit from the 70’s making fun of fat people.  Everyone watched this on Saturday nights.  But there are mixed signals and the fitness instructor on TV (Lyle Waggoner) says he doesn’t like fat people, but is married to a fat woman (Carol Burnett). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dIs4RdHF0c&feature=related

ken

Comment #48: kma815  on  05/15  at  03:27 PM

(ok, so I just double checked the stupid BMI calculator, and I remembered the math wrong.  I only have to lose about 30 pounds to be merely overweight and not obese.  But, considering the way my body makes muscle versus loses fat, that’s still just complete bs.  As is the fact that I would have to weigh 125 pounds or less to be considered anything less than overweight.)

Comment #49: jennygadget  on  05/15  at  03:28 PM

Additionally, even if a person believes stupid shit like creationism, they still deserve human dignity. Their ideas are stupid and totally worthy of being mocked, but they still deserve their dignity.

Comment #50: alysia  on  05/15  at  03:28 PM

Amanda, I appreciate your both/and approach here. I read a fair number of fat acceptance blogs - honestly, I think fat acceptance is a relevant movement to women from our culture regardless of their personal BMI - and I think we are in agreement that prevention and dignity shouldn’t need to be opposed. Unfortunately, our culture really seems to have a sin-based view of fat and the body, where the whole thing is just tied up so intensely with the question of guilt and fault that it’s hard for us to accept that bodies are bodies and sometimes they have health problems and it does not make you a bad person for not living in prevention mode every second of your life, and also, attempts to make prevention easier aren’t supposed to be attempts to make the unlucky feel bad. Feminist blogs are usually pretty good with arguing that it’s not shaming to, say, have an unintended pregnancy and it’s important to try to build a culture where unintended pregnancies aren’t the natural consequence of growing up in certain places, even though plenty of them will still happen. But intriguingly, food and fat - usually our culture’s proxy issues for anxieties about the body and its appetite - is a harder topic for us (us particularly, in this crowd on this blog) to think both-and on.

Comment #51: purpleshoes  on  05/15  at  03:36 PM

As a reversal, in the 19th century chunky was considered attractive, and suffragettes were publicly shamed as looking thin and therefore, unsexual.

It was a combo platter: in an era when there were more undernourished the poor could be shamed for not being able to afford food, some women could be shamed for their natural bodies, and a stereotype of unwomanly could be slapped on the Ur feminists.

Comment #52: judybrowni  on  05/15  at  03:43 PM

@ purpleshoes #30

Do you have sources for the malnutrition in utero = stocky thing?  I’m stocky, and having seen pictures of my mom pregnant with me, I find it hard to believe she was malnourished.

Comment #53: bomberE  on  05/15  at  03:44 PM

p.s. Yes, I considered that that comparison could be pretty damn offensive, and then I thought about it again and decided that it holds true in that I don’t believe people should have to abstain from eating in order to have the health care they need either.

Comment #54: purpleshoes  on  05/15  at  03:46 PM

Emmett, I’m not saying it’s the only predictor of stockiness. In fact, I’m oversimplifying: the actual data that I have is based on the indications that:

1) Nutrition in utero and in early childhood is predictive of height.

2) It’s much easier to make up weight then make up height later in life, or even childhood.

The physiology associated with stunting (the result of micronutrient shortages) is also linked with heavier builds when there are macronutrients (by which I mean calories) to be had. Here is one source on how stunting is linked to obesity in children.

Comment #55: purpleshoes  on  05/15  at  03:59 PM

I also think it is genuinely impossible to separate hate of fat women from hate of adult women, period.  That is not because of any specious and offensive equation of curves with “reality,” but because breasts are, literally, mostly made of fat.  A thin and angular woman still has breasts made of fat.  A thin and muscular woman who menstruates has more fat in her than a man her size.  And protesting that biology made it this way is no help; to the fat-hater, it’s merely admitting women are biologically fated to be more disgusting than men.

sophonisba,

Thank you so much for that.

It’s easy now to look back and realize that I started to think of myself as fat right about the time my breasts became so large I could no longer ignore them, and how my perception of myself as fat only grew with the size of my breasts, irregardless of my actual weight/health.  But it wasn’t at all clear to me when it was happening.  Thanks in no small part to the way that the people around me - including adults, including *doctors* - treated me.

And I think this is part of why so many of the programs to end childhood obesity worry me.  There doesn’t seem to be much acknowledgement by many people that kids go through weird body stages, especially as they develop into adults - especially girls.  Even putting aside for a moment my slightly a-typical experiences of hitting puberty at age 9, my younger cousin - who currently pretty much has the ideal 17 yo body - went through a time at around age 13 or so - right before she shot up and grew breasts - where she looked a little chunky.  And her mom would constantly harp on her about what she ate and trying to lose weight.  And it was just so ridiculous and harmful, because there was no reason for it.  Her body was that way becuase her body needed to be that way to ready itself for puberty and a growth spurt.  Trying to lose weight to be skinny at that point in her life was only going to make her less healthy, not more.  No matter what her BMI score may or may not have said.

I think part of why HAES appeals to me is because it’s focus is so much more on what you do, and so very not on what you look like or weigh.  Part of why what my doctors said to me in my teen years about needing to lose weight was so demoralizing and frustrating was becuase it was such a stark contrast to how I was treated as a younger child when I used to go in for yearly cardiac check-ups.  (I was born with a heart defect and had open heart surgery at age 2.)  After all the tests were done and the doctor reviewed the results, the check-up would always end with the doctor asking my mother if I still played soccer?  Was I still active?  Did I ever have any trouble when involved in high energy activities?  That sort of thing.  And that, as much as all the blood preassure tests and x-rays, was the point of the visit.

But when I’d go in for my physicals as a teen - generally in order to get cleared to play school sports, mind you - the focus was so much more on that one damn number.  I learned to hate BMI as a teen because my doctor would bring it up and I would counter with the fact that *I was here because I needed the check-up in order to try out for the school soccer team* and instead of talking about my training, he’d just point back at that stupid number like it trumped everything else.  (And god forbid I point out the fact that um, hello? do you see these breasts?  It’s not like they weigh nothing, dorkwad.)  The sad thing is, if he had ditched the fat-shaming BMI talk and instead talked to me about my training, and worked with me on making sure I kept up with my training during the off season, I probably would have been a lot healthier and developed better habits into adulthood.

Comment #56: jennygadget  on  05/15  at  04:02 PM

Wow, Felegund I treat all human beings with dignity. Not deserving of dignity?  My ideology is very left, and I treat people who believe in creationism with dignity as well.  They are human.

That was a disgusting comment, and very revealing.  I’ll tell you straight out - I’d much rather sit next to a fat person on a plane than sit next to someone who feels the way you do about human beings.

Comment #57: JennyLI  on  05/15  at  04:10 PM

Thanks, purpleshoes.

Comment #58: bomberE  on  05/15  at  04:11 PM

The idea, however, that obesity is genetic is laughable to me.  If it were, then people in Europe would be obese at the same rate as white Americans, and they aren’t.

BetsyD, this is an absurd either/or that you’ve constructed. Just because obesity may be impacted by other factors does not mean that it can’t also be genetic. I’m tempted to say something really flip because of your sneering “laughable” comment, but I’ll try to let it go. Suffice to say, there’s a decent sized gap in the logic of your argument.

And, per the OP, somebody should let the pro-anorexia dudes know that it’s the mental illness with the highest fatality rate in the US. Although I’d be wary of engaging such types myself…

Comment #59: samanthab.  on  05/15  at  04:39 PM

purpleshoes, I’m not sure how you think we’re in conflict.  Yes, I know Doritos are available in Europe.  I’ve lived there, and I’ve eaten Doritos there.  But the social and political structures in Europeans countries ensure that individual bags of Doritos contain only one serving, that you might have to walk or take public transit to get them, and that you’ll have a much better set of cultural practices around eating food in general.

Comment #60: BetsyD  on  05/15  at  04:41 PM

From observations of the Pima population, one can argue that the tendency to obesity may be inherited, but may become malignant when faced with the calorie-rich processed foods

As was previously mentioned during the discussion of the diversion of the Gila River, the Akimel O’odham and the Onk Akimel O’odham have various environmentally based health issues that can be traced directly back to that point in time when the traditional economy was devastated. They have the highest prevalence of type 2 diabetes in the world, much more than is observed in other U.S. populations. While they do not have a greater risk than other tribes, the Pima people have been the subject of intensive study of diabetes, in part because they form a homogeneous group.[4]  The general increased diabetes prevalence among Native Americans has been hypothesized as the result of the interaction of genetic predisposition (the thrifty phenotype or thrifty genotype as suggested by anthropologist Robert Ferrell in 1984[4]) and a sudden shift in diet from traditional agricultural goods towards processed foods in the past century. For comparison, genetically similar Pimas in Mexico have virtually no type 2 diabetes.[4]

This is a study that demonstrates the interaction between heredity and environment that can be toxic to the population caught between these two grindstones:

The Federated States of Micronesia (FSM) has received considerable attention for their alarming rates of overweight and obesity. On Kosrae, one of the four districts in the FSM, 88% of adults aged 20 or older are overweight (BMI > 25), 59% are obese (BMI > 30), and 24% are extremely obese (BMI > 35). Recent genetic studies in Kosrae have shown that obesity is a highly heritable trait, and more work is underway to identify obesity genes in humans. However, less attention has been given to potential social and developmental causes of obesity in the FSM. This paper outlines the long history of foreign rule and social change over the last 100 years, and suggests that a combination of dietary change influenced by foreigners, dependence on foreign aid, and the ease of global food trade contributed to poor diet and increased rates of obesity in Micronesia. The last section of the paper highlights the Pacific tuna trade as an example of how foreign dependence and global food trade exacerbates their obesity epidemic.


judibrowni, there’s increasing evidence that high-fructose corn syrup can be a factor in obesity and an increase in weight-related morbidity:

A Princeton University research team has demonstrated that all sweeteners are not equal when it comes to weight gain: Rats with access to high-fructose corn syrup gained significantly more weight than those with access to table sugar, even when their overall caloric intake was the same.

In addition to causing significant weight gain in lab animals, long-term consumption of high-fructose corn syrup also led to abnormal increases in body fat, especially in the abdomen, and a rise in circulating blood fats called triglycerides. The researchers say the work sheds light on the factors contributing to obesity trends in the United States.

Comment #61: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/15  at  04:45 PM

samanthab., if you read my comment you’ll see that I think variation in size and shape is genetic, but I stand by my point that the development of obesity always depends upon the existence of environmental factors like excess calories, exercise, and medication.  The Pima may be genetically predisposed to be bigger, but in the absence of those environmental factors, they won’t become obese.

Comment #62: BetsyD  on  05/15  at  04:50 PM

Amanda, I think that, as purpleshoes says above, that there is such a strong moral bias in the presentation of obesity research to public, that critiques need to have more grounding in the science.  Paul Campos writes about going to an obesity research conference where there were no overweight people among the presenters or in the audience. 

Some of what you are writing about is an attempt by people to make their experiences matter.  Of course, there is the problem of totally rejecting the science and research because of the problematic nature of much of it.  But you are doing the same.  You don’t identify who is “claims that obesity doesn’t have much to do with calorie consumption” or what evidence they are offering.  If someone goes on a low calorie diet and doesn’t lose weight - how does their experience fit in here?

AnglScarlett - there are valid feminist critiques of pornography AND there are anti-porn cranks.

Comment #63: East of Weston  on  05/15  at  04:59 PM

BetsyD, I don’t think we’re in conflict on the Dorito point either, now that you’ve explained what you meant. You said But a social democracy with an emphasis on public health would impinge on, say, the freedom to eat junk food.  Either we can be communitarian or individualistic, it’s awfully tough to do both at once. Nothing you mention (small bags, walking to stores) seemed to me to be an infringement on freedom (I certainly face more substantial hurdles to purchase condoms and cold medicine, in the South) so I assumed you had not eaten European Doritos. You have! Problem solved.

Comment #64: purpleshoes  on  05/15  at  05:08 PM

As far as “obese people with the habits of long distance runners” go, I would like to think that I have done more than a little good by challenging researchers to think beyond BMI as a measure of health when it only really works for tracking population-based risk (not individual).  My standard MO is to ask them to guess my weight.  When they invariable come in 30 to 50 pounds low we talk about that.

One researcher that I challenged a couple years back now realizes that using BMI in a small population - such as a panel study - that is getting total blood work and lung function testing and huge amounts of other measurements done is just plain dumb.  She now measures body fat and her research has gotten a lot stronger for it because BMI isn’t a good individual measure of fatness when fatness can be measured directly.  Less noise = stronger signal.

Comment #65: Ms Kate  on  05/15  at  05:29 PM

Hi all. I am usually quiet on things but I just had to speak up about this issue. I live in WV, one of the fattest states out there according to the news and I just have to say that this is such a complex issue. Now I am by not means skinny and I will admit that I don’t have the best health habits but what I think people who don’t live here, don’t realize is that we don’t have alot of people especially with the recession that can’t afford gym memberships and good food. We have a local farmers market finally now with good food and it is packed every Sunday morning. As for gyms, they can be pretty pricey around here but I see tides of change coming with more local insurances developing programs (mine included) like Silver Sneakers and discounts but it has been a long time coming. Btw, shaming fat people never works if anything it drives them myself included to bad habits even further so it is better to encourage people not shame. Also agree with the commenter that said depression can lead to weight gain totally true. I have had a mental illness schizoaffective for many years and between the meds and the depression and highs it can be difficult. With the new insurance at my husband’s work they have nurses who call and check in with you as well as nutritionists and such and discounted gym memberships so I have found a good balance but I am more fortunate than most thankfully. Thanks Amanda for great post love the site!

Comment #66: bucketsoffate  on  05/15  at  05:29 PM

I work out pretty much every day and I barely see anyone at the gym that’s even overweight, much less fat.  And that bothers me, because I know that a big reason fat people avoid gyms is that they feel shamed there.  Which is fucked up beyond belief. 

I go to a gym called Planet Fitness in downtown Boston and Porter Square Cambridge locations and I see very large people there all the time.  Why?  Because they have THIS IS A NO-JUDGMENT ZONE in huge purple letters on every wall and they enforce this by ringing a “lunk alarm” if anybody slags anyone or people show off, drop weights, etc.  You sign a contract that says that badmouthing others will get you chucked without refund.  Add in the $10 to $20 a month cost and it means that you get lots of people who are willing to work out there who might not work out otherwise.

Comment #67: Ms Kate  on  05/15  at  05:34 PM

purpleshoes, I like smaller portions and walking, but plenty of Americans would see any imposition of these, whether through culture or government, as impinging on their freedom.

Comment #68: BetsyD  on  05/15  at  05:53 PM

Wonderful post - you have put my nebulous hesitation about HAES into clear prose.

Comment #69: teabea  on  05/15  at  06:01 PM

All decent people should really be horrified by shows like “The Biggest Loser”, which engage in just the sort of objectification that he’s talking about.

This is the second time I’ve heard you mention “The Biggest Loser” in disgust.  I have to ask: how would you change the show to make it better?

On balance I have to say that I like the show, but I _think_ I understand you and partially agree.  For me, I love how it shows the contestants as heroes who are far more physically capable than fat stereotypes would admit.  A few weeks into a season and contestants are demonstrating serious levels of athleticism that anyone should aspire to.  The show has also been very forthright that significant weight loss is a long-term process that involves as much emotional development as it does learning new skills regarding eating and exercise.

OTOH, I hate how the _sole reason_ the contestants are heroes is that they are getting thinner.  I would rather it be that they are achieving various goals (including weight loss) that they desire for themselves.  I also hate the Jillian sales phenomenon with the bulls**t pills and exercise machines that remind me of every other failed gym fad from the 1980’s.  The show also comes very close to the edge with sprains and (so far) minor bone breaks, but at the same time they re-iterate that the contestants have constant medical supervision and don’t try it this way at home.

Yet overall I feel like the contestants come out with a good experience.  Besides the various prizes, the food knowledge they gain (excepting the bulls**t product placement ads) isn’t wrong, and their workouts are along similar lines to the excellent “Art of Strength” style workouts.  For the viewers, all the pieces are there to build a good diet and exercise program.  If they pointed viewers to www.sparkpeople.com instead of NBC.com it would be great.

Comment #70: boring old dude  on  05/15  at  06:02 PM

To clarify: I’m really terrible at Internet nuance, so when I ask “how would you make it better?” I’m not trying to be rhetorical or snarky.  I’m genuinely curious what could make it not objectify people/fatness and be a more positive show.

Comment #71: boring old dude  on  05/15  at  06:18 PM

BetsyD, people sure see going hungry as an imposition on their freedom. Would they see, say, a 90-minute lunch and employer-provided vouchers to nice cafes with seasonal menus as an imposition? An impossibility, sure; an imposition, probably not. (I can’t seem to find a good English summary of, say, the French “tickets-restaurants”, which I am sure has its own problems, but they’re different problems). If people had time to eat lunch and money to eat lunch, would the size of the Dorito bag be a major problem? I just don’t think people routinely choose less satisfying food over sitting and eating a meal unless there’s something else going on, like shortages of money or time, or never having gotten into the <a href=“https://ellynsatter.com/showArticle.jsp?id=2625&section=890”>.

I don’t think I’ve ever known someone who lived in unwalkable housing who didn’t at least pay lip service to wishing the neighborhood was more pedestrian-friendly; usually people I’ve known who’ve moved to those areas cite the cost of living, not the joys of having to drive to everything. I am curious if there are people who are actively against sidewalks, now.

Comment #72: purpleshoes  on  05/15  at  06:21 PM

link fail! If I could delete I would repost the proper link about sitting down and eating for beginners.

Comment #73: purpleshoes  on  05/15  at  06:22 PM

BOD-

People die from the Biggest Loser. How is that healthy?

Re Europe-

I don’t understand how it would be such a bad thing if we actually tied portions to products.  I don’t see how that infringes on your right if we say “The nutrition information on the back actually has to be linked to what someone eats, not this tiny size NO one eats”.  I wish we had the same portions as Europe.  I try to practice mindful eating (I’m getting pretty good at it) and it bothers me that when I go out, I end up throwing a lot of food away if I’m eating by myself because there’s just too much food.

Comment #74: Antigone  on  05/15  at  06:26 PM

what I think people who don’t live here, don’t realize is that we don’t have alot of people especially with the recession that can’t afford gym memberships and good food.

Ditto in the Central Valley of CA, plus the fact that as I noted in a thread awhile back that we have temps that get up into the 90s-100s in the summer time, so working people have to either get up before sunrise to walk when the temp is bearable, or wait until after 8 PM for things to cool down.

As far as “obese people with the habits of long distance runners” go, I would like to think that I have done more than a little good by challenging researchers to think beyond BMI as a measure of health when it only really works for tracking population-based risk (not individual).

My father will be 78 this year.  He was a track runner in high school, which enabled him to get a scholarship to where Tommy Smothers matriculated, but kept in shape all his life to the point where he scuba dives out of the USA several times a year for at least a week at a time.  He recently reported that his resting systolic bp was 112, and he would probably be considered moderately obese by the disinterested observer.

I used to kid him that he’s a volunteer scuba diver for the local aquarium because he gets a free cardiac stress test every year that everyone has to take so that the management knows that they aren’t in danger of a volunteer going code blue in the same tank with large, predatory shark nearby.

Comment #75: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/15  at  06:40 PM

People die from the Biggest Loser. How is that healthy?

My Google-fu is failing me today, do you have any pointers to that story?  The nearest I found was a reference on Paul Marks and a claim that he might have died in surgery if he had not lost the weight on the ranch.

Comment #76: boring old dude  on  05/15  at  06:42 PM

judybrowni

I may be overly sensitive to hormones, but the obesity explosion came about in this country since it became usual to fatten cows with hormones, the use of the birth control pill, and hormones in our drinking water.

Obscenely early developement and menstruation of girls starting at 9 has also been posited as a result of hormones in the food supply, maybe they’re the canary in the coal mine.

Sorry but I hate comments like this because they are complete conjecture right now and not backed up by the science so far.

First of all, it is extremely US-centric.  Neither Canada nor the European Union allow hormones such as rBST to enter the food chain yet they are still seeing increasing rates of obesity and lower menarche. The lowering of menarche is also a trend that has been continuing for over 100 years now.

Secondly the hormones from sources such as food supply and the birth control pill are a pittance to the amount of hormone mimicking chemicals founds in plastics such as bisphenol-A (variety of plastics, including can linings) and pthalates (which are found in basically every product in your home, everything from your the paint on your walls to the coating of your pills and your favourite skin moisturizer).  And the effects of these chemicals have actually been proven to the point that many districts are starting to ban them in products for children.

Comment #77: hypatia  on  05/15  at  08:14 PM

purpleshoes, a few years ago Atrios posted a complaint that appeared in the paper in Minneapolis.  It was written by a woman who was about to get a government-ordered sidewalk placed in front of her home.  I think you’re naive if you think that the necessary structural changes we need to make to be healthier aren’t going to rile up the Tea Party and their ilk.

Comment #78: BetsyD  on  05/15  at  08:19 PM

So, hypatia, your point is that there are other things that mimic the effects of hormones?  How does that take away from the fact that hormones change people?  And why is it problematic for a study to be US-centric?  Those of us who live in the US actually like to know these kind of things, and many of us know that we live in a different environment than others around the world.

My own personal world has been way different since I had my thyroid removed - cancer, and the easiest cancer to get rid of, but doesn’t mean that my hormone levels haven’t been * drastically* affected, and I’ve been taking supplements since I was 14! (I am now 34.)  De-valuing what happens for people when they have severe hormone changes is hardly helpful.

Comment #79: Mimi  on  05/15  at  08:32 PM

BOD, there have been people hospitalized—-I don’t think anyone’s died, but there have been scares.  And most contestants gain the weight back.  This is because they’re given absolutely no skills for keeping it off.

What I object to is it is obesity porn.  It takes a very serious health concern and reduces it to entertainment. More disturbingly, it posits that the solution to the obesity crisis is epic displays of massive overnight weight loss for fat people, which is 100% the opposite of reality.  It’s not “inspiring”, since most people can’t actually take months off from their job to devote themselves full time to losing weight.  It creates a false dichotomy between people who can devote their ever-waking hours to athleticism and people who are doomed to poor health, and that’s simply a lie.  Moderation is possible and desireable and achievable.

Comment #80: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/15  at  08:41 PM

And most contestants gain the weight back.  This is because they’re given absolutely no skills for keeping it off.

Like you, I don’t like TBL. But your comment implies that if only the contestants were taught different skills, they’d keep the weight off.

As far as I know, there has never been any program which has been empirically shown, in a peer-reviewed journal, to bring about and sustain massive weight loss over the long term. (By the long term, I mean at least five or six years, and ideally longer.)

In short, there are no known “skills for keeping it off” that the contestants could be given.

Comment #81: Ampersand  on  05/15  at  09:32 PM

BetsyD, trying to keep arsenic out of the drinking water riles up the Tea Party. Some of them are consistently polling as being pro-oil-spill. There are many places where one has to plan for the Tea Party, but I just can’t think about them when trying to make public health policy, except in the category of “eccentrics and cranks”.

(I did google “FDA cahoots” to see if I could find anything choice, and found some ranting on about FDA sodium recommendations, the Nanny State, and how it’ll be our fault for letting Big Government take our salt shakers when our food is bland forever. Seriously, I appreciate that some of these people have influence somewhere, but they just sound like my grandpa who won’t take his medicine on time.)

Comment #82: purpleshoes  on  05/15  at  09:43 PM

The snark in me has to say ‘of course she’s less healthy with less clothes on, she’s going to be cold!’

...But I know what you meant.  Although, your sentence:

The flip side of the “skinny person who got diabetes from inhaling sweets 24/7” is the uncomfortable reality the drastic and controversial measures like bariatric surgery often ”cure diabetes, sometimes instantly.”

Is really, really bad grammar.  I had to read it three times to make sure it meant what I was sure you were saying.

Comment #83: Crissa  on  05/15  at  09:52 PM

I’m a bit late to the party, but I just wanted to chime in about how much the woo-tastic psuedoscience “weight is entirely genetic and has nothing to do with calorie intake, nutrition, or exercise, and also has no connection whatsoever to any health problems” makes the Fat Acceptance movement look like a joke.

A pretty significant part of why nobody listens to them is that people (myself included) look at the blogs/writing/etc, see ridiculous claims, and decide that the whole thing is a fringe goofball movement. It will undoubtedly remain that way until the denialism gets swept under the rug or expunged.

Comment #84: UmaroVI  on  05/15  at  10:05 PM

** is fat at Felagund **

Fuck off, douchehound.

Comment #85: Nobody in Particular  on  05/15  at  10:13 PM

UmaroVI:  What the hell?  What studies are you seeing that show a disconnection between genetics and weight?

Sure my spouse isn’t overweight - but she could eat like a normal person and gain weight like a fatted cow.  Her family is nearly entirely overweight.  It’s only because she takes extreme measures that she’s only on the top side of normal.

I have a friend who’s an inch shy of seven feet tall.  He’s always been heavily active and often eats like a bird - but feeds his friends like they’re royalty.  Like what was mentioned above, he got injured, and his weight spiked.  He was always overweight - and still nearly seven feet tall - and that minor injury left him burning too few calories and his weight just wouldn’t come down.  His doctor had him eating basically nothing but liquids and vegetables, and his weight wouldn’t come down, he couldn’t heal, he couldn’t be put into medical scanners to see the injury which got worse.

Was it his weight, or the genetics of being freakin’ huge that did it to him?  So yeah, extreme surgery, and he’s down some weight, but I know his frame, he’s going to look like a gaunt or something if he was at a ‘normal’ BMI.  I hope his strength comes back and they’re able to fix his injured bones so he can be active again, I loved his photos from tops of mountains and on his motorbike and there’s just something crazy awesome about seeing someone giant sized on a downhill bike pulling air…

Comment #86: Crissa  on  05/15  at  10:22 PM

The average American gains about two pounds a year and that is the problem. Most adults who aren’t pregnant or on certain sorts of medication should be able to keep their weight steady with the right balance of exercise and diet.

Comment #87: bad Jim  on  05/15  at  10:26 PM

I found the dynamics at the old ‘roid monkey gym I used to go to interesting. Most of the people there were guys, and huge. I was some skinny kid going there with his mother. I rarely saw overweight people in there.

However, when I did see an overweight person there, the most common reaction from the ludicrously muscular regulars was a smile and/or nod of approval. This wasn’t the kind of gym where people go to check out other people and get skinny. The people there were enthusiasts who wanted people to work out and get big muscles. That an overweight person was there was a step in the right direction, according to the regulars. At least, that’s what it appeared to be. Not that they have the right to make that judgment, but it’s a much kinder reaction than giving a “what the fuck are you doing here?” look.

Comment #88: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  05/15  at  10:27 PM

One thing I hate about BMI calculators?  None of them say what your healthy weight should be.  There’s not a one where you can enter in your height and get a fan of weights.  They all just give you a stupid number.

Why would I want to know my BMI?  Unless it came out of the scale; it’s useless.  It just says, ‘you’re heavy’ which is like, ‘well no shit sherlock’ or ‘the BMI is stupid’ as something in my head.

It’s not like losing weight for me will make it easier to find pants.  In fact, when I weighed less, it was significantly harder to find pants that fit.

Comment #89: Crissa  on  05/15  at  10:43 PM

Planet Fitness sounds awesome.  I have been happy with YMCA, but I may look into Planet Fitness when I move.

Comment #90: lonespark  on  05/15  at  11:03 PM

Amanda:  I’m having a hard time seeing where you draw the line between obesity porn and other portrayals of weight loss.  Granted that Biggest Loser is sensationalistic - and I won’t argue about who it should or should not inspire, it clearly has both fans and foes - to me it seems like you are defining obesity porn so widely that any kind of media portrayals of significant weight loss might count.

What kind of television/media program do you think would be the right approach?

Comment #91: boring old dude  on  05/15  at  11:35 PM

So, hypatia, your point is that there are other things that mimic the effects of hormones?  How does that take away from the fact that hormones change people?  And why is it problematic for a study to be US-centric?  Those of us who live in the US actually like to know these kind of things, and many of us know that we live in a different environment than others around the world.

Because it’s not about “if”, it’s about what hormones or hormone mimicking chemicals have actually been PROVEN to affect people.  Phthalates have been proven to cause problems with the endocrine system and cause birth defects. RBST has not; even countries that have banned it have stated it does not have an effect on human health, making their decision based on animal welfare.  The pill has consistently been blamed for weight gain but the actual evidence is spotty at best; I believe it was actually Amanda who made a post not too long ago that showed again that the pill does not cause weight gain.

A US centric study is not a problem.  However when you take an x (such as bovine growth hormone) that only occurs in the US and try to extrapolate it to say it causes y (obesity “epidemic”) when y is occurring in most of “western” society?  Then it becomes a problem, your avoiding blatant evidence by refusing to look outside the borders.

Comment #92: hypatia  on  05/15  at  11:44 PM

For anyone along with Felagund who might think that bigotry against fat people is a-ok cause they did it to themselves, the horrible fatties, I would like to say: Fuck you.

And from my personal perspective, the only times in my life when I could get motivated to be healthy were those in which my self-confidence was high. Strangely, being told that you are a blight upon the eyes of all good and decent thin people does not make you want to go out and take physical risks in public, where you will be forced to endure the grimaces and sometimes commentary of people like Felagund while you are, for example, trying to learn rockclimbing or just learning how to use a mountain bike.  If I or anyone else who is outside the range of decency circumscribed by those like Felagund (which he fails to define, but I presume, like obscenity, he knows it when he sees it) accepts his hateful view of myself as a person, then I will stay home. Doing nothing much, probably eating stuff I don’t even want, because all other avenues of enjoyment are things I don’t deserve so long as I fail to meet the attractiveness requirements of random Internet dudes.

But thankfully, I learned long ago that I can tell douchebags where, in fact, to cram it, leave the house, and enjoy myself, and be healthier. And if I happen to see a Felagund-like dude pursing his tiny prim lips (or so I imagine them) in disapproval of my fat-flaunting, self-loving attitude, well, that’s just a bonus.

Comment #93: emjaybee  on  05/15  at  11:49 PM

This is the second time I’ve heard you mention “The Biggest Loser” in disgust.  I have to ask: how would you change the show to make it better?

Start by removing the absurd and extreme time pressure and the competitive aspects.  Also, these people do not learn real-live strategies for taking off weight and they don’t have any transitional attention.

Some of the biggest critics of the approach that I know are people who have taken off enormous amounts of weight and kept it off for several years through proper eating and plenty of exercise.  A friend of mine dropped 150 lbs and has kept it off - it was killing him.  Ditto for my brother who dumped a similar amount of weight several years ago and has not regained it.  My aunt had a medication switch and discovered that she could lose weight - by walking and proper diet, she’s dropped over 100 lbs and is still losing - and her habits have spilled over to my father, with whom she shares a house - and he has dropped weight slowly too.  By changing my diet very moderately and maintaining a high fitness level, I myself have dropped about 30 lbs and now can walk much further (I bike a great deal) because the arthritis in my knees is much less of an issue.

Sure, this took a lot more time than a production schedule and boot camp would allow.  Thing is, all these people made big changes through small changes in their lifestyle - small PERMANENT and SUSTAINABLE changes.  We all still drink wine, eat sweets, and navigate in the real world.  But all make choices to either feast now and eat light later or work out tomorrow or walk instead of driving and so on.  These are also choices that make heavy people healthier immediately -if you can get some exercise, you are better off regardless of your weight or whether you lose weight from it.

Comment #94: Ms Kate  on  05/15  at  11:57 PM

The average American gains about two pounds a year and that is the problem. Most adults who aren’t pregnant or on certain sorts of medication should be able to keep their weight steady with the right balance of exercise and diet.

Your metabolism slows as you age, and that is one reason why you steadily gain weight. I weigh just slightly less than the weight I was 12 years ago when I was in my early 20s: when I drank lots of soda and ate lots of the free food that was around work and didn’t exercise. Now I get a lot of exercise, eat a lot less and eat a lot more healthier, and gave up soda and take my coffee black. I’m a lot healthier and a lot stronger, but the weight loss I went through when I changed my lifestyle in my mid-20s would appear to be gone, not because I reverted to my old habits but because one needs to take progressively more extreme measures to “keep the weight off” as you age.

Comment #95: Tyro  on  05/16  at  12:04 AM

Lonespark - I think you’ll like Planet Fitness.  There’s no pressure and no classes, so you don’ t have a super-fit aerobics teacher talking down to you about your tushie.  I’m usually there for about 45 minutes, 3-4 nights a week, with 15 minutes on the weights and half an hour on either the bike or the treadmill depending on how my bad knee feels.  I’m getting muscle definition, my breath control is far better when I sing, I am much stronger, and my resting pulse has gone from 88 to 64.  I’ve only lost about ten pounds, but I’m there to get strong and get my wind back, not to look like an underweight college student again.

Comment #96: Ellid  on  05/16  at  12:12 AM

Tyro, metabolism doesn’t slow nearly as much if you are active.  Or maybe it doesn’t matter as much because you can still eat more than just about anyone around you and not gain if you are active.

Then again, my wedding dress from 20 years ago doesn’t fit anymore.  I think I’ll put it on for some goofy pictures given my 20th is coming up.

Comment #97: Ms Kate  on  05/16  at  12:12 AM

Because it’s not about “if”, it’s about what hormones or hormone mimicking chemicals have actually been PROVEN to affect people.

Please point me to the “if” statement in my post (#80).  I made no such assertion, I simply pointed out that hormones actually affect people and that’s well known.  Should I not be able to point out that my massive hormone problems exist because there *may* be some relation to wastewater?

Seriously, step off the woo.

Comment #98: Mimi  on  05/16  at  12:46 AM

Sorry, response to hypatia @ #93.

Comment #99: Mimi  on  05/16  at  12:49 AM

The average American gains about two pounds a year and that is the problem. Most adults who aren’t pregnant or on certain sorts of medication should be able to keep their weight steady with the right balance of exercise and diet.

Some of us can keep our weight steady.  I’ve been the same size for years; it’s just a large size.  Eat healthy, eat garbage, walk 5 miles a day, sit at a desk for 8 hours a day, my weight doesn’t change.  This is just what size I am.

Let me add that exercise and healthy eating isn’t always a guarantee of longevity.  The healthiest person I knew, who always ate organic foods, who was a marathon runner, who never drank or smoked dropped dead at 55 of a heart attack on his porch.  If you have a genetic predisposition, there’s very little that will change that reality.

Comment #100: Dez  on  05/16  at  02:45 AM

Seriously, step off the woo.

SO… scientific facts are “woo” and unsubstantiated opinions are… what exactly?

There is no evidence that rBST has any effect in humans. 

Synthetic estrogen from hormonal contraceptives getting into the water supply is pretty much a non-issue for people, crap for fish, but unless you are sucking up water straight from the waste treatment plant the estrogen biodegrades before it can ever make it to your drinking glass.  Plus, if there’s one thing that releases more estrogen through urine than a woman on the pill, it’s a pregnant woman.

Bisphenol-A and Phthalates however, we come into direct contact everyday.

Also you said “hormones change people”, that is actually a huge “if” statement.  A hormone can only cause a change if you have the correct receptors to receive it in a high enough dose, so a hormone that affects a cow may not affect a human, especially if they are far removed from it.

Comment #101: hypatia  on  05/16  at  04:21 AM

The flip side of the “skinny person who got diabetes from inhaling sweets 24/7” is the uncomfortable reality the drastic and controversial measures like bariatric surgery often ”cure diabetes, sometimes instantly.”

I think you misunderstand how bariatric surgery affects diabetes. Bariatric surgery affects diabetes because the part of the small intestine that is cut off has a major roll in stimulating insulin production. Non-diabetics who get bariatric surgery develop severe hypoglycemia. Skinny diabetics, if given bariatric surgery, would also be cured of their diabetes. It isn’t by making fat people thin that bariatric surgery cures diabetes, so bariatric surgery doesn’t have anything to say about the relationship between being fat and developing diabetes.

Comment #102: Charles  on  05/16  at  07:35 AM

When I look at the grocery stores of yesteryear, and the aisles today, there’s one overwhelming difference; we are being buried under packages of processed food.

Bill Bryson did a lovely memoir about growing up in the fifties, and the inside binding was a picture of a family of four with their yearly groceries, won in a contest or something. There were boxes of corn flakes, but also oatmeal; there were sacks of sugar, but also slabs of meat and bricks of butter.

The thing that struck me was that it was mostly FOOD. And now when I go to the store, whole aisles are processed, sweetened, chemical crap with minimal nutrient content.

The more I eat real food, the less hungry I get. No one gets satisfied from junk food; sooner or later we have to eat real food, or our bodies keeps crying for nutrients which they are not getting.

It’s not the whole story, I’m sure. But it’s a big chapter.

Comment #103: WereBear  on  05/16  at  08:03 AM

Crissa #87: I never said anything about a disconnect between weight and genetics. What I was saying is that it is false (and ridiculous) to claim, as many fat advocates do, that weight is entirely determined by genetics for everyone, and has no connection to anything else. Of course weight has some genetic component.

Comment #104: UmaroVI  on  05/16  at  08:10 AM

That “birth control pill pee is polluting our water!!!111eleventy!” thing is a bunch of hooey promoted by people like Laura “the birth control pills are physically addictive” Eldridge.

Comment #105: UmaroVI  on  05/16  at  08:14 AM

Strangely, being told that you are a blight upon the eyes of all good and decent thin people does not make you want to go out and take physical risks in public, where you will be forced to endure the grimaces and sometimes commentary of people like Felagund while you are, for example, trying to learn rockclimbing or just learning how to use a mountain bike.

Nice shitty reading skills. I specifically said that anyone who hassled a fat person who was trying to exercise was a stupid asshole.

I see a fat person out working out, I’m usually not going to purse my lips, which are in fact prim and thin, but rather give them a nod or a thumbs-up or some other gesture of respect, or ignore them so as not to interrupt them. Anyone who’s trying to be more fit deserves dignity and respect, even if they aren’t actually losing any weight yet.

Comment #106: felagund  on  05/16  at  08:49 AM

Felagund @ 107: “Anyone who’s trying to be more fit deserves dignity and respect, even if they aren’t actually losing any weight yet.”

But fat people who don’t happen to be working out at the moment you see them get all the dehumanizing scorn that you, in all your wisdom and compassion, have judged they deserve?

Still a fail, Felagund.

Comment #107: Rumblelizard  on  05/16  at  09:35 AM

Start by removing the absurd and extreme time pressure and the competitive aspects.  Also, these people do not learn real-live strategies for taking off weight and they don’t have any transitional attention.

The last two serials (last fall and this spring) have been better about this.  Both featured weeks where some or all of the contestants went home for a week and they lost much less that week.  This season they had both “work week” where contestants were limited in their gym time and had to navigate 8-5 “jobs” volunteering at a food bank, and also two teams started the season at home without any of the extreme ranch environment.  They have also done more with showing the contestants in the kitchen cooking their meals and talking about the transition to the real world.  Finally, they have been somewhat toning down the “game” aspects in the votes and challenges - the last two groups of contestants have been very resistant to voting with Survivor-style logic and the show seems to be going along with them.

I am not sure if they can ever not be “obesity porn” given the format of weekly eliminations, but these seem to be steps in the right direction.

Sure, this took a lot more time than a production schedule and boot camp would allow.  Thing is, all these people made big changes through small changes in their lifestyle - small PERMANENT and SUSTAINABLE changes.  We all still drink wine, eat sweets, and navigate in the real world.  But all make choices to either feast now and eat light later or work out tomorrow or walk instead of driving and so on.  These are also choices that make heavy people healthier immediately -if you can get some exercise, you are better off regardless of your weight or whether you lose weight from it.

I agree, small steps are a great way to go.  I really like the sparkpeople approach for that reason.  In the last three years I’ve learned to both count and control my calories, work within my limitations (i.e. not buying a gigantic bag of cookies when I only want to taste a few), understand how my emotional landscape can translate to extra calories going in and less exercise, and of course I’ve learned many new exercises to make burning calories and building muscle fun.  (I’ve also learned that I need about 600 fewer calories to maintain my weight than the charts say I should need, hmm.)

However, in my semi-rural car-only Southern town eating right and getting plenty of exercise is enough to set one far outside the mainstream.  I’m doing it - 40 lbs down and 80 to go - but I am sacrificing 10% of my potential income compared to my available alternatives, and I am largely cut off from the surrounding culture here.  Just maintaining a modest daily 500-cal deficit requires more discipline than anything I have ever seen; after I get to my goal weight my choice will be to continue holding that disciple (with the risk that small mistakes can eventually add up to large weight gain) or plan on moving to another area of the country where the culture can make staying thin much easier.  So for me a sparkpeople-style program is effectively just as “bizarre” as the Biggest Loser.

Comment #108: boring old dude  on  05/16  at  11:30 AM

BOD, dramatic weight loss as entertainment probably couldn’t be done right in our cultural context, but I’m sure a dry documentary about it wouldn’t trip up my annoyance.

Comment #109: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/16  at  12:43 PM

There are a lot of decisions people make that affect their health outcomes - unprotected sex, smoking, wearing seat belts/helmets… I’m trying to imagine someone posting on Pandagon and saying, essentially, that someone with HIV should have to prove they got it from their mom, or from their partner cheating on them, or something else that makes them “innocent”, in order to be treated with basic levels of dignity.  I’d think that saying such a thing would be equivalent to going around with a giant sign reading, “Hello I am an enormous asshole.”

No one deserves to be treated the way fat people get treated.  Period.

Comment #110: burgundy  on  05/16  at  02:10 PM

Last month I took a two-week multi-city trip from the West to the East Coast, and deliberately went Amtrak when it would have been cheaper to fly (I was fortunate to have the time to take the train).

One reason: my sister-in-law flies often with her husband, and they always book two seats together so that her size is not an issue; they can put up the armrest between them.  Recently she was nearly put off a plane mid-trip because their seat assignments were messed up, they weren’t to be seated next to each other, and the gate attendant said that she wouldn’t fit in a single seat.  Fortunately, my s-i-l is not afraid to make a fuss and they were seated together in the end, but she was terribly humiliated.

I usually fly alone, and the thought of running the risk of being hassled, judged, and perhaps stranded at every stage makes me vow to never fly again unless forced to.

Why people like Felagund think that I need to wear a t-shirt that proclaims, “I’m sorry I’m fat, but I work out four times a week and eat nothing but salads, so please don’t disdain me” is beyond me.  I should not have to justify my existence or my appearance to anyone.

Any movement is going to have its extremists, often in response to extremism in the other direction.  I would guess that those who claim that weight is totally genetic is probably blowback to the many, many, MANY others who say it’s totally the donuts.

Perhaps it is, like many judgments, what I call magical thinking. “I don’t eat Twinkies, so I’ll never look like THAT.  THEY must eat badly because if they ate like *I* do, they wouldn’t be fat.  Therefore, they’re BAD PEOPLE because they’re not like me and it’s their OWN FAULT.”  If I don’t do x, then y won’t happen.  Wrong.  Just ask anyone who is injured and can’t be active what happens.

Comment #111: NobleExperiments  on  05/16  at  02:27 PM

Thank you, burgundy; you said it better than I did.

Comment #112: NobleExperiments  on  05/16  at  02:28 PM

That “birth control pill pee is polluting our water!!!111eleventy!” thing is a bunch of hooey promoted by people like Laura “the birth control pills are physically addictive” Eldridge.

The problem with things like, synthetic estrogen can contaminate water, is that there is an element of truth.  A study in the UK was able to show that higher levels of estrogen in waste water flow did lead to some increased incidence in inter-sexed fish that were spawned in the area. That’s it though, it was very localized as the estrogen biodegrades very quickly, and it also can’t contaminate the food chain for the same reason, it’s not a contaminate like mercury that will stay in the fish for it’s entire lifecycle.

And there is something very anti-woman about the whole thing.  As I alluded to before pregnant women release far more estrogen in their urine than women on the pill.  Less people on hormonal birth control and you will increase the birth, rate almost guaranteed, so chances of that “solving” the problem are pretty darn low unless you suggest pregnant women should just stop peeing.

Plus we have the added fuckery of blaming the pill when truth is all medications that we take contaminate our waste water in some way.  Yet in the media we hear lots of bitching about the hormones in birth control but nothing about the steroids (read hormones) used to treat everything from allergies to cancer regimes.

Comment #113: hypatia  on  05/16  at  02:51 PM

“And there is something very anti-woman about the whole thing.”

I don’t know that there’s “something” anti-woman about the whole thing—it is in its entirety an extension of the idea that women are so worthless as to be undeserving of any convenience, control, or rights.  Any space a woman takes up, any damage done to society, any environmental impact, is too great.  The people moaning about how the estrogen excreted by hbc-using women generally also don’t want women—and usually this is a “women” problem, like we’ve hit human parthogenesis or something and men have absolutely nothing to do with it—getting pregnant at the rates we did before the pill was common.  It’s male-controlled bc or abstinence, and fuck you in the first place for not thinking about the horrible! damage! you! were doing! before you had the temerity to fill that prescription.  Trying not to have your life completely derailed by an unwanted pregnancy, unusually severe menstrual symptoms, etc., is treated like it’s on par with deliberately feeding plastic trash bags to sea turtles in pursuit of a 0.01% better profit margin.

The way corporate polluters and the damages done by statins in the same wastewater aren’t even on the complainers’ radar is just icing on the misogyny cake.  It’s like complaining about women smoking while pregnant while absolutely refusing to bat an eyelash at the presence of several different teratogens in the municipal drinking water.

Comment #114: preying mantis  on  05/16  at  03:13 PM

Jeebus fucking Christ you disingenuous asshole.  Right, my statement that “hormones change people” has no relevance to your completely insane statement that women peeing out birth control hormones change people.  It’s a big “if” when I say it, but scientific fact when you do?  You can fuck right off.  I’ve had severe hormone problems for most of my life.  I’m a cancer survivor.  And even if I didn’t know directly how hormones affect my life, the fact the BCPs exist is a pretty clear indicator that HORMONES CHANGE PEOPLE!  Like changing women to the degree that they don’t have to bear unwanted children!  I’m still waiting to hear about the “if” statement that I did not make.

P.S.  My reference to woo is relevant to this whole bullshit “women peeing out birth control hormones” act of insanity.  This is woo, and stupid woo.  Stop with the woo.

Comment #115: Mimi  on  05/16  at  03:55 PM

But fat people who don’t happen to be working out at the moment you see them get all the dehumanizing scorn that you, in all your wisdom and compassion, have judged they deserve?

Never said that. Contrapositive fail.

Comment #116: felagund  on  05/16  at  03:58 PM

“Um, no. Why should I treat someone with respect and dignity when they can’t treat themselves with respect and dignity?”

What were you trying to say then, felagund? What sort of disrespectful and undignified treatment do you think is best for the obese?

Comment #117: alysia  on  05/16  at  04:13 PM

It’s absolutely anti-woman—-the Catholic Church humps the “estrogen from the pill in the drinking water!” panic pretty hard.

Comment #118: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/16  at  04:27 PM

Felagund, you said what you said (alysia at 118 quotes your exact quote), and you goddamn well know it. So I’d also like to know, what sort of disrespectful and undignified treatment do you believe fat people (who aren’t working out when you look at them) deserve?

Comment #119: Rumblelizard  on  05/16  at  06:19 PM

CalliopeJane: This feeds into a larger issue I’ve been seeing in the health care debate, of tea-party types arguing that they “shouldn’t have to pay for the health care of people who won’t take care of themselves.” That we shouldn’t have universal access to health care, because fat people, smokers, sedentary folks don’t DESERVE any health care.

I think this feeds into the “lucky ducky” idea—people who receive benefits of any kind apparently have it so good that it’s worth, e.g., grinding poverty in order to get sweet, sweet food stamps. Likewise, getting grievously ill isn’t itself a deterrent or a bad outcome unless you’re also driven bankrupt for the next seven generations by the hospital bills. It’s moral-hazard thinking taken to insane extremes in order to bash people who already have a pretty awful deal.

Comment #120: grendelkhan  on  05/16  at  06:57 PM

What’s often ignored in these kinds of conversations, I think, is that there’s obviously a problem with what we’re ALL eating. Whether you’re skinny or fat, if you live in America, you probably eat shit food. Pesticides, factory farms, the overwhelming ubiquity of nutritionally empty food additives and ingredients, and extra sugar in everything… Unless you are someone who only buys fresh, organic produce and grass-fed meat and makes everything from scratch, you are likely eating a terrible diet, or at least one that is much worse than you think it is. Looking at worldwide trends, it’s obviously not this or that diet, but the Western diet that is killing us. It really doesn’t matter as much what you chose to eat if all of your choices suck (and especially in urban areas, this is often the case).

Some people’s bodies just adapt to the Western diet better than others.

Comment #121: artdyke  on  05/16  at  07:12 PM

Unless you are someone who only buys fresh, organic produce and grass-fed meat and makes everything from scratch, you are likely eating a terrible diet, or at least one that is much worse than you think it is.

Moreover, even our European brethren have time to prepare food for themselves because their work schedules and supported family lives make that possible. If you read Nickled and Dimed, you might note that the author found it more economical to get some shit fast food between her first and second jobs than to try to prepare a meal that would eat up an hour’s pay.

It is much easier to cook good food for oneself and family when you have the time to do so.  I noted to my husband that we have been eating a lot better since he was laid off for this reason alone: we cook at home more because we simply have more time to do so!  That also means healthy leftovers to bring to lunch - an added bonus.

Comment #122: Ms Kate  on  05/16  at  09:03 PM

I don’t know that there’s “something” anti-woman about the whole thing—it is in its entirety an extension of the idea that women are so worthless as to be undeserving of any convenience, control, or rights.

And you defined that “something” smile I just wasn’t able to put it into words at that moment.

And Mimi you are the one being disingenuous at the moment.  You have accused me from the beginning of things I am simply not doing.

I was originally responding to someone who was trying to state that hormones in milk and estrogen in the water were responsible for weight gain and the obesity epidemic.  They are not; rBST does not affect humans in any tests carried out; estrogen does not make it’s way to the food and water supply where humans would actually consume it and therefore it also does not affect people.

I have never said that it is somehow impossible for hormones to have any affect on people.  I said it was impossible for those hormones to affect people in the way described.  But I resent it when people draw up political spin (from the animal rights lobby and religious right wankery) when they have no basis in scientific fact.

Taking a birth control orally (or any medication actually) is a different situation from what I was talking about, and I should not have to explain that to you.

Comment #123: hypatia  on  05/16  at  09:22 PM

For some reason reading this reminded me of an incident which occurred about 12 years ago.  I worked with this young woman Janine, and she was about 75 lbs overweight, give or take a few.  And she went to the doctor because she had the flu.  We all had it, it was tearing through the office.  And the doctor told her, well, you’ve got to lose weight.  You’re far too heavy.

She was there because she had the flu.

And I always wondered what fucking good does it do to tell someone who has the flu, or a cold, or whatever, how fat they are?  I would think all that does is make it much less likely they’ll ever go to the doctor.  And what exactly, is the cost of that to their long-term health?

I had an experience similar to this one when I was about 14… actually it wasn’t even because I was sick, my mom decided that she was going to take me (just ME not my brother as well) into the Mayo Clinic to have “a physical”. What resulted was what felt like a full day of traumatizing a 14 year old who was MAYBE (at that time) about 15 pounds overweight. Or over the “ideal” which in itself is a rather unachievable goal for someone with my genetics but I digress.

To this day I only go to the gyno every year. I haven’t gone to a GP for at least 15 years - probably more now that I think about it. I just don’t want to go through the trauma of calipers, fat camp brochures (that possibility is rather remote for a 35 year old to be honest!), etc. etc.

I really remember crying and not even listening to a damn thing that the doctor was saying and just focusing on her super hairy arms that had black hair growing out of them like a gorilla and thinking “So people like that get to make me feel like this?”
Meh.

Comment #124: Danica Lefse Queen  on  05/16  at  10:14 PM

East of Weston: To those who will argue against this - show me the study of an intervention where the majority of obese people get down to and maintain a normal weight, keeping in mind that bariatric surgery has a 13-15% 10 year death rate.

Can I ask where you found that number? According to this NEJM study, total ten-year mortality for a group of two thousand subjects who received the surgery was five percent, which represented a statistically significant improvement in relative mortality over a group not receiving the surgery.

Comment #125: grendelkhan  on  05/16  at  11:00 PM

Felagund, you said what you said (alysia at 118 quotes your exact quote), and you goddamn well know it. So I’d also like to know, what sort of disrespectful and undignified treatment do you believe fat people (who aren’t working out when you look at them) deserve?

Those are truly epic bad reading skills.

Go back to the original comment. I made it specifically clear that not only was I not talking about garden-variety overweight people, and, moreover, that insofar as the “fat acceptance” movement addresses issues like the genetic/environmental component of stocky builds, and crappy lifestyles inflicted on us all by capitalism, I have no issue with it. Insofar as it tries to defend the idea that being enormously obese and lying on the couch and eating Ho-Hos all day is a lifestyle we should all accept and even cherish, it’s ludicrous, counterproductive and probably dangerous. Note carefully: the defining factor in what I said is not obesity per se but a refusal to treat oneself with basic respect and dignity—a refusal that can take many other forms, as well.

Comment #126: felagund  on  05/16  at  11:14 PM

It’s probably a lost cause to offer any opinion other than absolute full-on acceptance of all fat and obesity on some of these otherwise excellent blogs, Felagund.  There is an extremely high sensitivity to fat discussions.  The scientific evidence linking obesity to serious health problems is real, but a lot of the people pushing the fat-acceptance movement will not acknowlege it, and instead accuse you of fat phobia and fat shaming.
It’s possible to respect people with high BMI’s, without pretending that obesity is just fine.  It’s nearly impossible to communicate that in these forums without unleashing a torrent of anger and accusations (both honest and disingenuous) of fat shaming.  Pretending like obesity is healthy or absolutely unavoidable for 30% of the population is not a way of showing respect - it’s pandering.

Comment #127: odiousharpy  on  05/17  at  12:53 AM

odiousharpy, felagund flat out stated, without any ambiguity whatsoever, that he does not feel that he should respect, or treat with dignity, very obese people because they are very obese.  If you feel that “it’s possible to respect people with high BMI’s without pretending that obesity is just fine” then you happen to disagree with felagund, according to his own words:

[Fat people] should be treated with respect and dignity—like, you know, people—even if they exclusively subsist on ho-hos and never get off the couch.

Um, no. Why should I treat someone with respect and dignity when they can’t treat themselves with respect and dignity?

That is exactly what he said.  Copy/pasted from his first comment on this thread. (The italics is the person he quoted.)

He is not fighting against straw-fat-acceptance-crazies-who-think-obesity-is-super-duper-healthy-and-amazing*.  He’s saying that very fat people do not deserve respect or dignity.  Please explain to me, odious or felagund, where my reading comprehension failure lies.

 


*Note: This blog post and this thread hasn’t even been like that at all.  So stop being paranoid and lashing out at straw-activists.  Amanda’s post straight up says that people who talk about how they’re super healthy and still fat aren’t doing regular fat people any favors, because even if you’re lazy, it’s still not right to treat people like subhumans.  The only person who seems to strongly disagree is felagund, and not on the side of “obesity is fine” but on the side of “fat people don’t deserve dignity ever unless I happen to see them exercising”.

Comment #128: Denise  on  05/17  at  01:25 AM

Only in America.

Comment #129: sirkowski  on  05/17  at  01:29 AM

Felagund, I quoted you directly. You may not have meant it, but the words you used seemed to explicitly advocate treating fat people with disrespect. When you clarify it sounds like you mean dismissing the idea that behavior doesn’t cause obesity, but that is not what you said. I am not the only one who thinks that. You should probably apologize and clarify what you meant rather than start insulting people’s reading skills.

Part of the reason people get so emotional on FA blogs is that people are really really mean to fat people. Bullying and street harassment are just a fact of like. I mentioned before that I was the fat kid growing up. When I was a child, adult people would drive behind me and oink and moo on my way home from school—on top of all the normal school bullying. If that is what it was like for a child, I can’t imagine the kind of harassment adults must get. Health concerns are often used as a way for random strangers to feel good calling people ugly. On top of that, there are so many cultural things enforcing the thought that a woman’s entire self-worth is related to how much she weighs. Also losing is very hard and doing it healthfully takes a lot of time, which can mean months or even years of still being fat even when you are doing everything right, which can make overcoming obesity seem hopeless.

It is a lot easier to have a clear “fat is fine” message than it is to have a nuanced “be nice to fat people, they are worthy of dignity and respect and happiness, but the prevalence of obesity in this country indicates that most of us need to eat more vegetables and get more exercise.” Nuance doesn’t really work with the national conversation, and until then, it will be nearly impossible to talk about healthy habits without conjuring up real and damaging memories of schoolyard bullies.

Comment #130: alysia  on  05/17  at  01:31 AM

OK, I realize that most of that paragraph doesn’t make sense, and I start of by trying to say that I have adequate reading comprehension skills, but its finals week….

Comment #131: alysia  on  05/17  at  01:39 AM

I’ve posted kind of a long response to Amanda’s original post; it can be read here, for folks who are interested.

Comment #132: Ampersand  on  05/17  at  06:24 AM

I’m pretty sure that Felagund was referring to “disrespecting” the Ho-Hos and the couch-dwelling, not the obesity per say. Not saying I agree, but pretending that hir statement was being applied to any obese person is disingenuous. There are definitely *behaviors* I disrespect, personally, even if I don’t usually disrespect peoples’ *qualities*—if someone who is totally able to take care of themselves instead says “fuck it” and goes limp that would make it hard for me to respect them, appearances aside.

Comment #133: Bagelsan  on  05/17  at  07:49 AM

Yes, Bagelsan. You are correct. And no, Alysia, I am not going to apologize to you for saying you have bad reading skills. The original comment was very clear in saying that the set of fat people is not identical to the set of people who don’t deserve respect, and that to the extent that they overlap it isn’t due to obesity in and of itself.

Comment #134: felagund  on  05/17  at  08:17 AM

Oh, and Denise, you have really crappy reading skills. Alysia at least figured it out the second time through, and recognized that her own issues made her jump to a conclusion that wasn’t justified by what I wrote. So Alysia, I really ought to apologize to you, because you do have good reading skills; you just didn’t use them right away. Sorry.

Comment #135: felagund  on  05/17  at  08:23 AM

Ampersand: thank you for a great response on your blog.

Amanda:

I work out pretty much every day…

Moderation is possible and desireable and achievable.

Working out every day is not moderation, especially if it is just to maintain being thin as compared to going from obese to thin.

BOD, dramatic weight loss as entertainment probably couldn’t be done right in our cultural context, but I’m sure a dry documentary about it wouldn’t trip up my annoyance.

You might not be trying to communicate this, but what I’m reading here is a general disapproval of weight loss being fun in media.  It’s only OK to put weight loss on TV if it’s boring, anything else is “obesity porn”.

The main thrust of your post - that humans should be treated with dignity regardless of their size - is spot on.  But it seems like you disapprove of some actual concrete people who 1) choose for themselves to lose weight, and 2) do so with methods you are unhappy with.  And you reiterate the threat that if they lose weight the wrong way then they will gain it right back.  I absolutely agree that is improper to only listen to the voices of ex-fat people, or to insist that every fat person wants to (or should want to) be thin, but those who have chosen to get thin should be supported in that effort.

Coming out of a 200,000+ calorie hole ultimately requires an extreme opposite of moderation.  For most of them/us it’s a long journey of many small individually-sustainable steps that lead to permanent changes in habits, but along the way we start living a life way outside the mainstream.  Weight loss of that magnitude is practically the same as voluntarily creating a controlled eating disorder.  When they/we are hitting the gym the workouts might look pretty extreme - but that may be exactly where we should be in the process.

In tearing down one false dichotomy of “take off work months a time to lose weight” vs “stay fat forever”, you made another one of “lose weight this way” vs “gain every pound back”.  There is no known recipe for weight loss that works for everyone.

Comment #136: boring old dude  on  05/17  at  09:28 AM

I work with two fairly obese people, Guy named Gill and women named Donna, Gill is about 5.10 and probably close to three-hundred pounds and Donna is around 5.5 and probably about one-ninety, they both go to the doctor fairly for various tests, for blood pressure and cholesteral, almost always the next day they are proudly showing their numbers.  Donna keeps trying to bet me that her cholesteral is lower than mine, I eat a lot of hard boiled eggs so she may be right.  Gill even though he can’t go up a flight of stairs, continually talks about how healthy his doctor says he is.  Of course both of them are on meds for high blood pressure and given the number of pills they seem to consume during the day probably many other things as well.

My point is that maybe a lot of people who claim to be very healthy in spite of their weight are probably just medicating their condition, and hiding the symptoms.

Comment #137: John Rove  on  05/17  at  10:30 AM

“Yes, Bagelsan. You are correct. And no, Alysia, I am not going to apologize to you for saying you have bad reading skills. The original comment was very clear in saying that the set of fat people is not identical to the set of people who don’t deserve respect, and that to the extent that they overlap it isn’t due to obesity in and of itself.”

But you do have a set of people who don’t deserve respect? What you haven’t explained is just what form that lack of respect is going to take, which leads people to assume that you’re going to shame and titter at fat people in a dick-headed manner, along with the rest of mainstream society.

Been a long time, but:
“Oh, yeah, there is.  People who hate fat people associate fat with women, poor people, and minorities, and they think that all those groups are stupid, weak, and humiliated, therefore humiliating to come in contact with.”

I buy that. Fatness is a big class marker in the grand old U.S. of A. If you believe our cultural narratives (ie. TV) the only fat people ever portrayed are poor people, or rich men.

Comment #138: witless chum  on  05/17  at  11:27 AM

like complaining about women smoking while pregnant while absolutely refusing to bat an eyelash at the presence of several different teratogens in the municipal drinking water.

Actually, smoking by pregnant women is negligibly low in nearly every society across the entire planet.  There are some issues with passive smoking, but not what you might think.  Most “passive smoke” issues are cookstoves in unventilated dwellings, not cigarettes.

Comment #139: Ms Kate  on  05/17  at  11:40 AM

The elephant in the room when it comes to obesity is the precipitous rise in the use of psychiatric medications, nearly all of which are associated with intractable weight gain.  We need another pill for that I suppose.

Comment #140: Ms Kate  on  05/17  at  11:44 AM

Working out every day is not moderation, especially if it is just to maintain being thin as compared to going from obese to thin.

Depends on what “working out” consists of.  Most people I know who work out every day take a brisk 30-minute walk—that includes the guy who lost 170 pounds and has kept it off for the past 5 years.  Others go to the gym and run on the treadmill for 90 minutes and, yes, I would agree with you that they are not working out in moderation if they do that every day.

I used to “work out” every day because at lunchtime I would wander around downtown looking into shop windows.  It got me a surprisingly long way towards improving my basic cardiovascular fitness so I could do more strenuous things, like 30 minutes on the elliptical trainer.  (I have exercise-induced asthma, so I have to build up to working out very carefully.)  Once I changed jobs and injured my knee, I was unable to do that, so my cardiovascular fitness sucks right now.  I really need to start riding my bike to work every day, especially since it’s only 3 freakin’ miles away.

Comment #141: Mnemosyne  on  05/17  at  12:00 PM

I believe what makes BL weight loss porn is that it is made to be all drama and comedy for the entertainment of others.  Not much good is found in objectifying people as “those fat people” and then treating them like some circus act writ large via tv.

For another north of Boston area (Methuen/Andover/No Andover/Haverhill), choice fitness is a good place for those who just want to work out, though I can’t give an opinion of the classes as I avoid those like a plague (having no grace, they are nothing but embarassing for me no matter what my current body shape).

Comment #142: helen w. h.  on  05/17  at  12:17 PM

But you do have a set of people who don’t deserve respect? What you haven’t explained is just what form that lack of respect is going to take, which leads people to assume that you’re going to shame and titter at fat people in a dick-headed manner, along with the rest of mainstream society.

Yes, I have a set of people who don’t deserve respect: among them are people who cling to obvious delusions in the face of well-documented and easily-obtainable facts. That was why I equated people who think it’s just fine to be grossly obese and sit on the couch all day eating Ho-Ho’s to people who think Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to the mall.

I really don’t see as how I have any obligation to explain what form my lack of respect is going to take, but since you and others seem to find this important: most of the time I’m not going to say or do much at all, not only because I’m a Midwestern WASP who’s been trained to say nothing and act casual, but also because I’m way too busy to give a crap most of the time.

Just because I find fat people deeply repugnant, and that subset of them described above undeserving of respect, doesn’t mean I’m going to roll down the windows of my car and moo at them or whatever. Because ordinary fat people might be healthier than me, or they might have just dropped thirty pounds through lifestyle changes, so it would be ignorant as well as needlessly dick-headed to bash them. And the couch/Ho-Ho contingent, well, I might purse my prim little lips, but I’m unlikely to say or do anything unless one of them gets in my face and tells me I have to respect and cherish them. And even then, I’m much more likely to say “Mm-hmm” and walk away.

Comment #143: felagund  on  05/17  at  12:29 PM

Of course anything is silly taken to an extreme. Saying that there is never a lifestyle component to weight is just as stupid and counterproductive as saying there is never a genetic/prenatal one.

If all the “we’re just concerned about your health” fat-shamers really believed their own health=weight, no exceptions, world without ed, amen propaganda, wouldn’t they believe that decreased weight would be the inevitable result of increased health, focus on the latter, and sit back and watch the former take care of itself?

Comment #144: ttintagel  on  05/17  at  12:38 PM

“Of course anything is silly taken to an extreme.” 
You are right about that.  So in your second paragraph, you supplied an extreme example of fat-shamers who expect that health=weight, no exceptions, world without end, etc. 
I don’t know any actual people who think like that. 
But your first comment makes sense, for all kinds of topics.

Comment #145: odiousharpy  on  05/17  at  12:48 PM

Well I guess as long as your just an ass on the inside…
.

Comment #146: alysia  on  05/17  at  12:49 PM

Not sure where “obese” automatically equals “sits on couch with ho hos” but whatever.  Sounds like yet another Welfare Queen shaming modality to me.  Perhaps you need to examine that, felagund.

Most grossly obese people in my life got that way through years of underactivity and overeating, but not sitting on the couch with ho hos.  Usually it involved working very long hours and caring for others without time or regard for self-care - but, hey, it doesn’t fit the couch riding narrative of moral panic about sloth and greed now does it?

Comment #147: Ms Kate  on  05/17  at  01:16 PM

Not sure where “obese” automatically equals “sits on couch with ho hos”

It never did. Bad reading skills.

Comment #148: felagund  on  05/17  at  02:01 PM

The original comment was very clear in saying that the set of fat people is not identical to the set of people who don’t deserve respect, and that to the extent that they overlap it isn’t due to obesity in and of itself.

So, felagund, how do you know which is which?  Assuming you aren’t familiar with the eating/exercising/lounging habits of each obese person, what do you use to determine whether or not they deserve respect?  If you only reserve the disrespect and denial of dignity for those whose habits you observe on a regular basis, your statement makes sense.  Otherwise, I fail to see how you are in a position to judge who does or does not deserve to be treated with respect and dignity.  If there are people whose habits make you feel that they do not deserve to be treated as other human beings, I hope fervently that you disassociate yourself with them immediately, for both of your sakes.

Comment #149: Reba  on  05/17  at  02:07 PM

Just because I find fat people deeply repugnant, and that subset of them described above undeserving of respect,

Never mind.  You answered my question right there.  Sorry my wheelchair bound mother isn’t thin enough to meet your standard for people who deserve dignity and respect.  Ditto for my aunt with a non-functioning thyroid who underwent gastric bypass surgery in the 1970s and dropped 250 lbs but is still statistically obese.  Same goes for my friend whose medication makes him gain and retain weight but lack of medication results in unbearable pain.  I guarantee that none of them (and a host of other folks I know) are capable of exercising on a regular basis and do, in fact, spend a lot of time on the couch because they don’t have a hell of a lot of choice in the matter.  I guess these imperfect people just have to live with people like you finding them (a) to blame for their conditions and (b) deeply repugnant.  I am quite certain they would feel the same way about you, with the difference being you are, in fact, completely responsible for being an asshole.

Comment #150: Reba  on  05/17  at  02:18 PM

“Just because I find fat people deeply repugnant, and that subset of them described above undeserving of respect, doesn’t mean I’m going to roll down the windows of my car and moo at them or whatever.”

Good, I guess.

I think that’s a shitty way to look at people, myself. Even the dino-riding creationists deserve respect, in my mind, because that’s just the way you’re supposed to treat people. Especially in the case of people who aren’t, unlike a lot of creationists, even trying to harm you. 

But you mentioned that you find fat people repugnant. I don’t really get finding fat people repugnant (so how fat am I? Pretty fat, but well-short of unhealthily so. I get my unhealthyness from a pack of cigarettes per day and a general lack of activity, though I’m kinda naturally strong). I don’t really have a gag-type reaction to a really fat person walking down the street. I’m not that guy, generally, though. Like as a straight man, I’m supposed to be disgusted by gay porn, but it tends to be the same thing. No disgust, just no anything. Does the sight of a 300 pound person waddling down the street really hit you like, I dunno, the smell of months-dead animals or something?

Comment #151: witless chum  on  05/17  at  02:24 PM

Your bad reading skills - you have mentioned couches and ho hos several times.  It seems to be your stock belief about how people get fat.

Comment #152: Ms Kate  on  05/17  at  02:28 PM

I think the standard reaction to “i find X people repugnant” shouldn’t be “those people are gross and not deserving of respect”, it should be “WHY do I find them gross and not deserving of respect?”.  Turning it outward and declaring it to be truth and looking for external validation is, well, lazy lazy lazy.

Comment #153: Ms Kate  on  05/17  at  02:31 PM

Why do fat acceptance discussions always turn everybody into armchair epidemiologists and doctors?

Comment #154: mamram  on  05/17  at  02:43 PM

Some of us are not armchair epidemiologists and doctors.

Comment #155: Ms Kate  on  05/17  at  02:46 PM

Conventional Wisdom is just not working. There is a 98% percent failure rate for the eat less, exercise more crowd. Google the past winners of The Biggest Losers to see what I mean. TBL is completely unworkable in real life. Nobody I know has four hours per day to devote to a TBL style exercise regimen—let alone the starvation diet that goes with it.

Obese people are made to feel like failures when trying to do it like TBL.

I am 5’ 2” and used to be 200 lbs. Since the last Monday of September ‘09, I have been on a very specific, VERY unconventional exercise discipline. The short of it is, that I exercise 16 minutes once a week. The weight is coming off very slowly because as I am losing fat, I am also putting on muscle, so for many weeks at a time, the scale needle does not move.

I have lost five inches off my waist, and four inches off my hips—these are what keep me going and keep me happy. The facts that I am no longer in physical pain, that I can bound up the stairs like a teenager, pick up 40 lbs cases of product with no problem, and no longer fall asleep at four o’clock at work, are also really great results.

My upstairs neighbor now goes with me to the exercise. I had briefly mentioned what I was doing, but what made her join was watching me bound up the stairs on the way to her apt. In her fifties she had experienced a sudden weight gain, had tried all the conventional things to no avail, and was desperate enough to try something she didn’t understand based on what she saw happening to me.

Monday nights we take turns driving 24 miles one way. I do the first session which takes in real time 35 minutes because it takes longer to get situated onto the machines than to do the actual exercise of 2 minutes each on eight machines. Then, it’s her session for thirty five minutes, and we’re off to eat a lot of protein before the return trip. In all, it takes three and a half hours every Monday evening for the round trip, the two sessions and dinner.

Worth. Every. Minute.

Comment #156: LCforevah  on  05/17  at  03:27 PM

LCForevah gets it right.  It is hard work, and we have a multitude of things working against us if we want to be physically strong and healthy and not technically overweight.  ( I know many posters hate the BMI). 
It’s worth it, though.  Every human deserves respect, regardless of their condition or appearance, and being honest about how hard it is to stay physically fit in today’s environment of HFCS surgary processed “foods”, phlalate contamination and prescription-happy doctors can only help.

Comment #157: odiousharpy  on  05/17  at  03:56 PM

I’m pretty sure that Felagund was referring to “disrespecting” the Ho-Hos and the couch-dwelling, not the obesity per say. Not saying I agree, but pretending that hir statement was being applied to any obese person is disingenuous.

Felagund is saying (and confirmed, later) he disrespects those people.  Otherwise, by saying, “why should I respect them when they don’t respect themselves?”, he would be implying that couches and Ho-Hos don’t respect themselves.

I am familiar with the white Anglo-Saxon Midwestern male, and believe me, Felagund, if you think your disgust (and lack of respect) doesn’t show, you’re fooling yourself.  When you heartily congratulate someone who loses weight on “getting a new life,” or when you fail to say anything positive at all about “overweight” colleagues while average-looking but skinny women get positive respectful attention, when you flinch as someone big gets too close to you, we notice.

When you’re in an underclass, you learn pretty quickly how to read a face.

Comment #158: oldfeminist  on  05/17  at  04:15 PM

I think this feeds into the “lucky ducky” idea—people who receive benefits of any kind apparently have it so good that it’s worth, e.g., grinding poverty in order to get sweet, sweet food stamps. Likewise, getting grievously ill isn’t itself a deterrent or a bad outcome unless you’re also driven bankrupt for the next seven generations by the hospital bills. It’s moral-hazard thinking taken to insane extremes in order to bash people who already have a pretty awful deal.

I disagree with this simply because a lot of people are/were dumb enough to assume they were immortal while they were young.  So they took up smoking, drank too much, didn’t exercise, ate a bunch of crap, and only got a wake-up call *after* they got sick.  And there are many people, even after getting a wake-up call, who can’t or won’t make changes to improve their health.  My father briefly stopped smoking after he was diagnosed with cancer, but, even before the cancer went into remission, he started up again.

Nevertheless, sensible public policy has to accept people’s faults and weaknesses.

Comment #159: keshmeshi  on  05/17  at  04:17 PM

odiousharpy, thanks for the support. I do want you to understand that while the Monday sessions take a lot out of both of us, it’s only done ONCE A WEEK!

Conventional Wisdom would have all of us obese types sweating away using all our free hours to do so. This is not only too Calvinist for me, it can cause more physical harm than good. There really is an element of punishment in conventional exercise treatments that I will no longer tolerate.

Having said that, exercising once a week so I can have a six day recovery period does take a lot of patience. If I crashed-dieted and worked out for hours every day, I would be thinner a lot faster, but as usual I would gain everything back just as fast.

I have to repeat the phrase “patience is a virtue” a hundred times every day to remind myself why I’m doing things this way. In eight and a half months, I have not gained anything back and have become stronger than I ever was in my slim twenties.

I won’t put up the website to the studio that we go to, but I will link to “body by science” so those who want to see what we’ve been doing can get an involved explanation as to the theory behind the exercise. Click on “videos” in the header and then scroll down past the TV interviews to the nine videos that explain the program.

http://www.bodybyscience.net

What Dr McGuff has to say about conventional cardio will surprise some and anger others. All I can say is that this is really working for me and offer this theory of exercise to others.

Comment #160: LCforevah  on  05/17  at  04:40 PM

These fat arguments seem to come up here every few weeks or so and one thing which always annoys me is that hardly anyone seems to differentiate between people who are technically overweight, or obese or morbidly obese. Instead everyone gets shoved into one big category labelled ‘fat’, as if the cause and effect are similar in every case. They aren’t and the inclination to do this is disengenuous from both sides of the argument.

The anti-fat brigade likes to bundle them all together, pretty much for the reasons mentioned above and elsewhere. They feel women should in some way live up to the societal ideal of beauty and see the failure to do this as a moral one. Therefore someone who’s chubby or mildly overweight should be shamed into slimming down, lest they be labelled as ‘ugly’. On the other hand, it’s in the best interests of the fat rights activists to group everyone together because they’d like to frame the issue as one which is primarily about hatred of those who are different or who aren’t conventionally beautiful. It isn’t, at least not once you get to the point where your size is regularly affecting your life and your ability to do everyday things.

The point I’m coming to is this: if someone has a bad reaction to medication (and it’s beyond dispute some medication does cause you to balloon) or there are specific health-led reasons for becoming obese, that’s unfortunate and they have every right to sympathy. But the vast majority of obese people haven’t got to that size for those reasons, they’re that size because they have an eating problem. That doesn’t mean someone who’s got to 300lb or so should be bullied or stigmatized - as has been said here, they’re as worthy of respect as any other human being - but they’re living a lifestyle which is damaging their health, and which can often obstructing to those around them as well as having a negative effect in their overall quality of life. I don’t like the inclination to treat people with eating, or any other lifestyle-based problem, like non-human beings but at the same time it’s not unreasonable for friends and family to urge them to get help. No one’s denying that making that change is hard or that it takes time but that’s not the same as declaring it’s impossible.

Comment #161: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  05/17  at  04:43 PM

Deeply repugnant.  Wow.  Well, at least we finally got an honest answer.

Comment #162: Rumblelizard  on  05/17  at  04:48 PM

Sorry, I should have made it clear in that paragraph, by ‘eating problem’ what I mean is that it’s a growing national health problem and so it’s fair to expect the government to put some money into programs making it easier for people to adapt to healthier lifestyles, by at least subsidising vegetables (considering the large amounts of money given to farmers I don’t think that’s too far fetched) and perhaps localised, small-scale exercise classes as well as increasing regulation on food additives. But at the same time, it needs individual responsiblity at the other end and a recognition that some element of sacrifice is necessary to change deeply ingrained habits.

Comment #163: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  05/17  at  04:56 PM

Ms Kate, you’re right, it’s not everyone.  But I have noticed a tendency among some to fall into that pattern when this (or similar) issues come up, and it is just so counterproductive.  I don’t want to sound like I am directing this at FA activists, it comes equally from all sides.  But the usefulness of the conversation rapidly goes to zero when it happens.

Another thing that drives me nuts in this argument (I’m kind of looking at Stubborn Kind of Fellow) is that the shamers don’t even seem to understand what everyone else is talking about.  Someone says something along the lines of, “fat people deserve not to be treated like they are stupid, lazy, inconsiderate, clueless, sexless, and that their bodies are everybody’s business,” and these fucking people respond, “But it’s unhealthy! Somebody should tell them! Maybe if somebody told them they were fat they would realize that they’re fat!”  How on earth does the latter make sense as a response to the former?

Comment #164: mamram  on  05/17  at  05:09 PM

No shit, mamram. A woman wrote an article for the student paper about the fat-shaming culture here at State University, mentioning an incident in which a stranger told her not to eat the ice cream she was eating. The letters to the editor the paper published the next day were all “OMG you could totes be skinny if you eat less and exercise more!” That’s not the fucking point! If someone complains about anti-Semitism you don’t tell her to convert to Christianity!

Comment #165: Yawgmoth  on  05/17  at  05:24 PM

Stubborn Kind of Fellow, you do realize that sometimes it’s the family dynamics that make an individual member obese. I not just talking about a parent whose ignorance regarding nutrition makes his/her children fat. There is also the incest issue. Far too many morbidly obese people are such because of child molestation. Insults for these people result in more weight gain, plus, without emotional help the weight will never come off.

I became obese because of an unusually stressful job I took in my thirties. I was so stressed out, I sought psychological help. Since at that time anti-anxiety meds didn’t exist, they put me on anti-depressants which made me gain more weight! I came off the meds, but the weight has never come off to any significant degree.

After two frustrating decades, I have taken matters into my own hands, done a significant amount of research, and created my own diet, along with utilizing the exercise regimen that I have been commenting about. Things are working now. In the meantime, I have to ignore well meaning people like you.

Comment #166: LCforevah  on  05/17  at  05:28 PM

Stolen from Reddit, with some modifications…

...government to put some money into programs making it easier for people to adapt to healthier lifestyles, by at least subsidising vegetables (considering the large amounts of money given to farmers I don’t think that’s too far fetched) and perhaps localised, small-scale exercise classes as well as increasing regulation on food additives. But at the same time, it needs individual responsiblity at the other end and a recognition that some element of sacrifice is necessary to change deeply ingrained habits.

Your post advocates a

( ) technical (X) legislative (X) market-based ( ) vigilante

approach to fighting obesity. Your idea will not work. Here is why it
won’t work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular
idea, and it may have other flaws.)

(X) It takes 6-8 hours of heavy cardio to burn off 1 pound of fat
(X) It only takes 3 fast food meals (breakfast/lunch/dinner) to gain 1 pound of fat
( ) It takes far more effort to *get* thin than to *stay* thin
(X) Non-obese people would be affected
(X) Many obese people cannot afford to work fewer hours
( ) People will not stop eating with their family and friends
( ) People will lose weight for two weeks and then gain it right back
( ) People who buy food will not put up with it
(X) McDonalds will not put up with it
( ) The medical insurance lobby will not put up with it
(X) Requires too much cooperation from schools/employers
( ) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
( ) Requires every obese person to move to an urban city and give up their car
( ) Requires rebuilding every suburban city in the country

Specifically, your plan fails to account for:

(X) The first law of thermodynamics
( ) High-calorie fattening food is cheaper than low-calorie healthy food
(X) High-calorie fattening food tastes better than low-calorie healthy food
(X) Individual differences in metabolism
(X) No one wants to be the oddball at the dinner table
(X) Lack of centrally controlling authority for food
(X) Lack of time/money to cook every meal
(X) Lack of time for exercise
( ) Gym memberships cost money
( ) Children
( ) Unpopularity of weird new “food”
( ) Huge existing investment in restaurants and grocery stores
( ) Nutritionally illiterate politicians
(X) Dishonesty on the part of food providers
(X) No one is willing to raise taxes to pay for it
( ) What worked for you will not work for everyone else
(X) Some people who look fat are actually at their healthy weight
( ) Doctors who ignore patients’ symptoms because of their body fat
(X) The majority of office workplaces that do not have lockers/showers

and the following philosophical objections may also apply:

(X) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever been shown practical
( ) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
(X) Shaming people to change their behavior will never work
( ) Individuals are not wholly to blame for a systemic national problem
( ) Diets suck
( ) Thin people who used to be fat shouldn’t be pricks to other fat people
(X) Restaurants should be able to serve whatever tastes good
( ) People should not be treated differently for doing what is medically necessary
( ) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
(X) I don’t want the government dictating what I can eat
( ) No one should be required to develop an eating disorder in order to fit in
( ) Your diet and fitness habits   [ ] are [ ] were   not “moderate”
( ) “You/they will gain it all back” is not being helpful, it is a threat

Furthermore, this is what I think about you:

(X) Sorry dude, but I don’t think it would work.
( ) This is a stupid idea, and you’re a stupid person for suggesting it.
( ) Nice try, assh0le! I’m going to find out where you live and burn your house down!

Comment #167: boring old dude  on  05/17  at  05:39 PM

Yawgmoth, I KNOW it’s not the point, but the “eat less and exercise more” doesn’t work for certain metabolism types. “The Metabolism Miracle” by Diane Kress explains why—yes, I know that one more time, this is only a theory—a non-conventional one, but this is the one that’s working for me after all these years. If eat less, exercise more hasn’t been working, it’s time to try eat more and exercise less.

Comment #168: LCforevah  on  05/17  at  05:44 PM

LCforevah, I was actually thinking of putting in the point about family dynamics and eating being a more likely indicator than genetics but in all honesty I’ve never heard of incest being linked to morbid obesity before, though if you can point to a study or a link I’ll be sure to give it a quick look. And of course, you’re free to ignore me, whatever works for you.

And boring old dude, your post is too long and vaguely patronising to bother addressing point by point, but a few obvious things: a) I explicitly said in my post that I was anti-shaming, b) people have complained over and over again that it’s the additives in processed food which are to blame, so your point that “I don’t want the government deciding what I eat” suggests it actually is the decision of the person in question to be overweight (it also suggests you think the FDA are somehow oppressive), c) someone who is 350lb is not at their healthy weight.

What I’m basically saying is that while there may be valid reasons for someone becoming obese and obstacles to them getting to a healthier weight, far too many people seem to use this as a reason not to bother doing anything. Ultimately, 2700 calories a day is a shitload and that’s just an average. Yes, long hours and not much money make it more difficult/less convenient to exercise and regulate meals but it’s in no way impossible. I know this probably comes across as judgemental but it’s not meant to. I don’t find fat people repugnant at all, but I do know that promoting the idea across society what people aren’t responsible for their weight, and that no health problems result from obesity is only going to make the problem worse. And especially hypocritical in contrast to how anorexia is approached on the other end of the spectrum.

Comment #169: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  05/17  at  06:59 PM

I find the ‘oh some peoples metabolisms are just inherently set to them being heavier’ fairly questionable, as well as the number of people who’ve gone ‘oh if I was less then 200lbs I’d be practically anorexic!’. You go to somewhere like Sweden you don’t hear much of that. I think that the USA and to a slightly smaller extent, the UK have gotten a ridiculously distorted view of what the norm should be. 

Obviously this doesn’t excuse shaming etc, but the explanation for why a significant number of people are overweight, is not because we’re genetically disposed to it unlike those Nordics.

Comment #170: Alex051  on  05/17  at  07:20 PM

What I’m basically saying is that while there may be valid reasons for someone becoming obese and obstacles to them getting to a healthier weight, far too many people seem to use this as a reason not to bother doing anything.
Comment #171: Stubborn Kind of Fellow on 05/17 at 04:59 PM

Actually, it’s usually that they do bother to do something, over and over.  Extreme dieting.  And the things they try seem to work, but long-term, fail.  So they give up. 

There’s no mystery here.

Extreme dieting to lose weight is like using cocaine to cure depression.  It’s all beer and skittles at first.  Everything seems great!  But you have to do more and more to get less and less effect, the physical side effects can be seriously bad, and, in the long run, you end up where you started, or even worse off. 

Yet we don’t tell people who quit using cocaine for depression that their big problem is a lack of dedication to cocaine, that they didn’t give it a chance to work, or that they should try it one more time because it will be different now.

It’s interesting (not) to hear a perspective on losing weight from people who don’t have problems with weight or lost it easily at some point.  It erases the actual experiences of those who have trouble with it or whose bodies just don’t seem willing to do it at all.

Comment #171: oldfeminist  on  05/17  at  07:24 PM

Oldfeminist, you can stop bashing that straw man. Not only did I not mention the word ‘diet’ once, but I stressed that a change in lifestyle was necessary for people who were heavily overweight and who wanted to take the weight off. Extreme diets are a scam aimed at people who want to lose a lot of weight quickly without putting in the time necessary to do it properly and healthily. And since I never recommended extreme dieting, cocaine or ignoring the causes of eating disorders, I’m not sure where you were going with that exactly. I mean, cocaine is an appetite suppressant but it’s not something I’d exactly recommend for either problem.

And since you mentioned my own weight, I didn’t bother including it since I didn’t think it was relevant or that people would much care.

Comment #172: Stubborn Kind of Fellow  on  05/17  at  08:40 PM

Obviously this doesn’t excuse shaming etc, but the explanation for why a significant number of people are overweight, is not because we’re genetically disposed to it unlike those Nordics.

Alex,I suggest that you read up on racial variation in health effects linked to obesity.  It also explains all the more why BMI is a bunch of bull for individuals, when all the risk curves were calculated for whites.

I’m culturally white, but with substantial non-white heritage and have the heavy bones and musculature (and other health issues) more common to black populations.  I’m 5’3 and weigh 185 and wear size 12 pants.  I simply cannot weigh the 125 lbs that is my “ideal” weight under BMI - I know from experience that my skin gets dry, my hair falls out, and I stop menstruating around 140lbs.

I grew up in a Nordic dominant area and I know damn well that I am substantially different.  There are substantial differences in mean fatness, lean mass, and bone mass between African American, White, and Asian populations and these are well known.  Note that African American populations demonstrate far less osteoporosis if you want a hint of the body composition differences.

Comment #173: Ms Kate  on  05/17  at  09:51 PM

Well, from the POV of a health care provider, I like the HAES model because it gives me a platform to launch from that doesn’t involve berating people for their weight - and believe me, that was a hard medium to find.  I’m not ok ignoring weigh as an issue: I cannot talk about diabetes, knee pain, back pain, reflux, high blood pressure, you name it, and not deal with the weight issue if the person I’m talking to is overweight - I would be doing no one a service.  But the HAES model (which I was taught in allopathic med school, BTW) did give me space to say, “It doesn’t matter what you weight, we start here, we start now, finding the habits that are healthy for YOU.”  I don’t look at weight very much, I don’t track BMIs (except that Medicare now makes me, sigh), I don’t get excited about weight unless a person comes to me proud that they lost some.  I get excited when someone who hasn’t exercised in years goes and walks around the block twice a week.  I get excited when someone decides to cut out the sodas.  I get excited when their blood sugar and their cholesterol hits goal. 

I haven’t made anyone a size six yet who wasn’t already, but I have had remarkable success working under the assumption that people can feel better by being healthier given the body they are in.  You can find that very political or total apolitical, but I’ve found that it works.  So, I’m all for it.

Comment #174: skylanda  on  05/17  at  11:22 PM

Oldfeminist, you can stop bashing that straw man. Not only did I not mention the word ‘diet’ once, but I stressed that a change in lifestyle was necessary for people who were heavily overweight and who wanted to take the weight off.
Comment #174: Stubborn Kind of Fellow on 05/17 at 06:40 PM

You didn’t say they didn’t try a specific plan that would be wonderful and healthful and you’d approve of.  You said they didn’t even try. 

“while there may be valid reasons for someone becoming obese and obstacles to them getting to a healthier weight, far too many people seem to use this as a reason not to bother doing anything.”

Comment #175: oldfeminist  on  05/17  at  11:58 PM

#176

When I lost weight, I used the HAES method, but I hadn’t heard of it at the time. Basically one day i just decided that I would never weigh myself again or worry about my weight. Then I started walking in the evenings. Then I started running. Then I added weight lifting and finally i started experimenting with different diet plans, and I got down to the “healthy” bmi over the course of a few years.  The problem with having “be thin” as a goal is that you fail for so long before you succeed. But if you goal is something like “walk 10 miles this week” or “eat 5 servings of veggies tomorrow” it becomes obtainable. You may never reach the magical category of “thin”, but a person will be healthier and able to move better.

Of course there are people for whom such a plan is not an option, but I think the ultimate message of HAES, as I understand it, is very sound.

Comment #176: alysia  on  05/18  at  12:37 AM

And I always wondered what fucking good does it do to tell someone who has the flu, or a cold, or whatever, how fat they are?

The last time I went into the Doctor she told me that if I didn’t lose weight I’d almost certainly get diabetes. That’s her job. She’s my doctor. What should I have said? “Well I didn’t ask YOU!”

Comment #177: Destructor  on  05/18  at  02:09 AM

Yet we don’t tell people who quit using cocaine for depression that their big problem is a lack of dedication to cocaine, that they didn’t give it a chance to work, or that they should try it one more time because it will be different now.

We also don’t tell them that there’s nothing they can do about their depression so their only choices are to do cocaine or to do nothing and stay depressed.

The usefulness of the HAES approach is that, as alysia said, it takes your focus off that one singular and capricious metric—the number on the scale—and encourages people to focus on a spectrum of healthy choices.  It tells you to put down the cocaine (ie the scale) and try something else that actually has a chance of helping you with your depression (ie becoming healthier no matter what the scale says).

Comment #178: Mnemosyne  on  05/18  at  02:50 AM

We also don’t tell them that there’s nothing they can do about their depression so their only choices are to do cocaine or to do nothing and stay depressed.

This thread has been worth it just to be exposed to this analogy between improving health and treating depression.  I am hopeful that more people might be able to “get it” from this angle.

Many of us know people (at all sizes/social classes/attractiveness) who have fought depression, and each one has a unique story of what worked and what didn’t, and what they have discovered for themselves vs what they have been told by the professionals.  Some people will respond very well to a particular pill with no other changes, some will need to make one-time lifestyle changes, and some may need to do years of extensive emotional therapy in addition to a lifetime of lifestyle changes.  Depression is a very slippery problem that touches on individual differences in personality and genetics, culture, medicine, psychology, lifestyle, childhood, family background, and more.

We know how tempting it is to say to our depressed loved one “just be happier already!”, yet we also know how futile that ultimately is.  “Just be happier” is to depression as “just eat less and do more” is to obesity.

Comment #179: boring old dude  on  05/18  at  08:16 AM

Mnem, I can also back that by saying that some payer sources are now (or are going to start) tying payment to outcomes.  If a visit for a cold is the only chance I get to talk to a diabetic because it’s the only time they show up (because of money or time or transport or lack of interest or whatever), I’m damn well going to use it to talk about diabetes - not only because I have to, but because it’s good practice.  At every visit now I talk about something preventive - it might be a colonoscopy, it might be the shingles vaccine, it might be birth control, it might be mammography, it might be weight, but I squeeze something like that into every visit.  Because otherwise those things don’t happen, and honestly?  Those things are as important as a cold.  Also, I just saw a lawsuit get settled in the patient’s favor because he claimed he wasn’t offered a certain preventive service for a disease he turned out to have - believe me, that kind of thing lights a fire under a provider’s ass to talk about things that you might not bring up at your visit.

Comment #180: skylanda  on  05/18  at  09:32 AM

Stubborn, just google *child molestation obesity* there’s a wealth of info.

Comment #181: LCforevah  on  05/18  at  12:28 PM

“Just be happier” is to depression as “just eat less and do more” is to obesity.

I think “just be happier” would be more like “just stop being fat.” A better comparison to “just eat less and do more” might be “go on antidepressants”—it will work for a fair number of people, but not all, and some people may find the side-effects intolerable.

Comment #182: Bagelsan  on  05/18  at  03:30 PM

To make the cocaine metaphor complete, what you’d need is for our government to subsidize dead puppies, breakups, and screenings of It’s a Wonderful Life, then make therapy and antidepressants unreasonably difficult for poor urban people to access along with teaching them useless and wrong information about mental health in school.

Then we’d need to have advertisements for a variety of different forms of cocaine on TV, on the internet, on billboards, and essentially everywhere we look, along with a majority of Americans honestly believing that cocaine will cure depression.

Next, every time someone tries to recommend that the solution is making therapy and antidepressants more accessible and providing better mental health education so that depressed people know where and how to get help, there’d be a chorus of people claiming that antidepressants are the same thing as cocaine, that depression isn’t a problem, and/or that your brain has a natural level of happiness that can’t be changed.

Finally, just to make sure no actual discussion ever happens, a bunch of people would show up at every attempt and say that depressed people should just go kill themselves and stop being a burden on society.

Comment #183: UmaroVI  on  05/18  at  06:37 PM
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