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Next entry: Why most how-to-get-a-relationship advice is bunk Previous entry: Dealing with FOX News with awesomesauce and attitude

Ritualized chastity

Sex

I'm sure you all have seen the ads for the new Anna Faris movie "What's Your Number", which is built around a head-scratchingly outdated premise, that a woman who has slept with 20 guys would quite literally believe that pushing that number to 21 would push her out of the marriage market forever (and that she would believe it's better to be married to some random dude you have already determined you're not in love with than to not be married at all). Or I would have thought it was an outdated premise---the movie's poor box office showing suggests that may be the case---but Jessica Grose has convincingly argued that there's still a lot of anxiety about women having "too many" partners, and for men there's a lot of anxiety about having "too few". She also starts to crack open the eternal statistical mystery of how men can routinely claim to have more sex partners on surveys than women, which is so consistent that there basically has to be fudging going on, because the men couldn't be having this much sex if the women weren't into it, unless they were having it with each other. (Even the usual explanation---that a small handful of women are the "excess" partners for all these men, doesn't hold up---a greater percentage of men than women claim to have more than 15 partners.) Jessica discovers that part of what's going on is women round down and men round up to meet expectations. Men count oral sex and mutual masturbation as sex and women don't as much. 

What Jessica didn't note was that people just straight up lie on those surveys, too. Researches have found that when you hook survey-takers up to fake polygraph machines, the number of partners that women put down on the surveys nearly doubles. This reflects the double bind that Jessica describes women being in. You don't want to have too few partners, or people will assume you're a prude, but you don't want too many, or people will assume you're a slut. Women's official "number", then, is more reflective of social expecations than their actual behavior. I've even seen, in my time, tongue-in-cheek dating advice that suggests that women settle on some number, usually around 3 or 4, and say that's their number to potential boyfriends who ask, regardless of what the actual number is. 

Which brings me to this interesting article at Jezebel about research done recording sexual mores amongst college kids. Kids were given two nearly identical scenarios.  In both, a couple meets at a party and has a one night stand (locations varied, but the kids didn't seem to think whose house mattered that much). Afterwards, one of the two asks the other on a date, which ends with a kiss but no sex. Where the scenarios diverged was that in one scenario, the man did the asking for the date, and in the other, the woman did.  What researchers found was that in both scenarios, the man and woman were given basically identical motives for the one-night stand, i.e. that they were horny and there was a shot at getting laid. There was some overexplaining for the woman from some students, but it related mainly to overcoming pressure and inhibitions to get to the getting laid. But when it came to the dating part, there was a great deal of divergence.

Things looked different, however, when it came time to explain the date, and the mere kiss that ended it. Many students thought that, in both scenarios, the man and woman might be holding off on sex in order to get to know each other better. However, in scenario A, where the man asks the woman out, the most common explanation for the lack of sex was "redemptive chastity" — that is, the woman wanted to prove to the man that she wasn't slutty. Explains one student, "The first time they met, she probably assumed she would never really see him again so she didn't care what he thought of her. However, after he asks her out, she probably doesn't want him to assume she is a slut or easy so she decides to merely end the date with a kiss." In scenario B, where the woman asks the man out, two explanations were equally common: that both parties want to get to know each other, or that the man didn't really want to see the woman again, and only went out with her out of pity. One student encapsulated the "pity date" scenario thus: "The girl hoped for some kind of relationship. On the second date the guy tried to start getting away from the girl in a gradual way." The study authors add that "justifying their interpretations in explaining the man's sexless behavior, students often brought attention to the fact that it was the woman who asked for the date, indicating that if the man were interested in her, he would have requested the date himself."

Part of this, of course, is the generalized belief that women are all desperate for boyfriends and men are desperate not to be boyfriends. (Reality actually demonstrates that this doesn't hold up at all, because men tend to benefit more from partnering up than women.) But what I also thought was interesting was the performative aspect of chastity. It's strange to me that so many people think it's perfectly normal for a woman to put up the "not a slut" front to a guy who has direct knowledge that she's up for hopping straight into bed with men, or at least him. It's a strange choice on its surface, but what was really weird to me was that there was such a widespread expectation that not-a-slut-ness is a performance that has no relationship to reality. It's not that people don't think women are horny, they just expect women to pretend they're not. In my admittedly radicalized mind, there is literally no reason for this. Everyone involved in the dance knows that women like sex for itself and want it, so why pretend otherwise?  What possible value is there for performing chastity for an audience that knows you don't mean it? 

I tossed that question to my resident dude and informant on all ways patriarchal bullshit, and he said, "Well, it's a ritual, isn't it?" Ah yes, it is a ritual, the same way you go through the ritual of pretending to like your racist and overbearing uncle in order to keep the peace. The expectation here, as articulated by the students, is now that there's a potential relationship, the norms of said relationship need to be set up.  And let's be clear, the norm isn't just female semi-chastity for its own sake---I imagine the young man in this scenario expects sex after a couple of dates, and the young woman does, too. Basically, now that there's going to be a continuing relationship, the ritual of female reluctance is invoked in order to reimagine the relationship as a more traditional, male-dominated one. It's to establish that he's the boss now that their connection is more than fleeting. This is what the researchers also determined:

The study authors sum up the situation thus: "Women are allowed to have fun at parties, but once it becomes a serious matter, traditional gender norms, which affirm men's prerogatives, take precedence."

The charade that he chases and she is caught and seduced is performed even though everyone knows it's a charade, because by going through the motions, his dominant status is established. Even a fake "victory" over a faux-reluctant woman is good for establishing the power dynamic that is all too real in these traditional dating relationships. 

People who scold young women for "hooking up" often claim to have their best interests at heart. They warn of broken hearts and feelings of rejection. I often point out that dating is no cure for broken hearts and feelings of rejection; if anything, dating someone seriously means crying that much harder when it ends. That doesn't mean you shouldn't date, though---life is for the living, and all that. But it also means that you should hook up if that's where your muse takes you. But it's interesting to note that hooking up has one major advantage over dating, which is that it is less likely to invoke these toxic gender norms that are so destructive to women's happiness. Of course, to my mind the solution isn't "stop dating", but to date differently. For instance, don't go through ritualized performance of chastity. Any man who needs that in order to date you is just being sexist, and doesn't deserve to date you. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:57 AM • (170) Comments

As far as I’m concerned, if you haven’t had sex within five minutes of meeting someone, it’s not going to go anywhere. Your mileage may not vary.

Comment #1: junk science  on  10/05  at  10:27 AM

Wow, that’s really odd to me. Having done the “have a one night stand, then date” thing, I’ve certainly not had sex that next date in some cases, but it wasn’t ritualized chastity (at least, I didn’t think it so at the time) but rather a “if this is going to be more serious, let’s get to know each other better”. Primarily because both she and I had stayed in relationships because there was good sexual chemistry and nothing else and those ended badly.

Looking broader picture, I don’t really doubt that what’s being reported here goes on a lot, but presented with the research scenario, interpreting it as the “not a slut card” would never even have occurred to me.

Comment #2: LC  on  10/05  at  10:29 AM

Oh, I’m so sick of the notion that women are all desperate for relationships and men run for the hills at the word “commitment.” I’m assuming there’s some projection going on here. It’s like anti-contraception fanatics saying men don’t respect wives who use birth control (yes, they really do say that). This is, of course, true for them. They don’t want to commit to those icky women who are pests and burdens. It’s not true for me. In fact, I’ve had many men who got attached to me very fast, called me way too many times, and fretted over why I wouldn’t be his girlfriend yet. My husband asked me to be his “official” girlfriend after one date and sent me long Facebook messages telling me how much he liked me. This “women want love, men want sex” nonsense only applies to the people spouting it.

Comment #3: Ashley Herzog  on  10/05  at  10:45 AM

Well, and some students did suggest that “they’re trying to get to know each other better” was the reason—-again, I’m a little unclear why sex somehow prevents that, but LC, you do give one example of how it could—-but overall the interpretation was that it’s a ritualized dance of faux chastity that establishes the man as dominant in the budding relationship.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/05  at  10:46 AM

Ashley, that’s amazing.

I will never, ever, ever understand men who are upset/disgusted/turned off by women wanting sex for pleasure. One should objectively see the problem with that, and if that’s how you actually feel, I’d imagine you should see that you’re fucked up and you need therapy.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/05  at  10:48 AM

The chastity ritual thing is a bit a tricky. Obviously it is very gendered, because you don’t hear of guys withholding sex to test women’s true feelings or to show they’re actually not slutty. On the other hand…making a guy sweat a little does give you some idea of how enthused he really is. And feeling like you’ve seduced someone is a more exciting feeling than having someone throw himself or herself at you.  We all appreciate less what’s given to us easily. It doesn’t sound rational - if you want it, why would you want any reluctance? - but whoever said human relations were a paragon of rationality?

Comment #6: ArielNYC  on  10/05  at  10:52 AM

I haven’t encountered the chastity ritual as much in my peer group, or maybe I’m oblivious to it. When I was younger and dating, multiple sex partners for everyone was more or less a given, and at least among my partners and me, we didn’t ask how many or play coy. Perhaps this aberration was or is a characteristic of indie rock, radical culture. I don’t know. I, for one, have always sought commitment in relationships often more than my female partners, and I almost took it for granted that they sought commitment less than I.

Comment #7: JonE  on  10/05  at  11:01 AM

Both intuition and, to a significantly lesser extent, experience lead me to the conclusion that, for me at least, there’s no such thing as a woman who’s too eager to sleep with me.

Comment #8: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/05  at  11:05 AM

@JonE

I’ll concur and say that 500 Days of Summer is not based on a myth. Somtimes a guy does want to be more serious than the girl. It’s just that guys tend to be more sexually opportunistic (i.e. really slutty), so you get the distoted optics.

Comment #9: ArielNYC  on  10/05  at  11:06 AM

We all appreciate less what’s given to us easily.

Your statement is directly contradicted by the participants in the study. When the man holds back, it’s interpreted as him not even being interested in the woman.

Very gendered, indeed.

It doesn’t sound rational - if you want it, why would you want any reluctance? - but whoever said human relations were a paragon of rationality?

Right, but a big chunk of that irrationality is outrageously sexist. Yes, even from men who think they aren’t sexist.

Comment #10: chingona  on  10/05  at  11:08 AM

500 Days of Summer is not based on a myth. Somtimes a guy does want to be more serious than the girl.

Or, in an alternative reading, sometimes a guy is a needy, manipulative doooosh who lies to get what he wants and can’t handle it when the lying blows up in his face. And the girl is a doe-eyed, faux edgy bundle of quirks over whom such a wonderful guy would blow a gasket or three.

Of course your general point stands.

Comment #11: rb1  on  10/05  at  11:12 AM

This film should be remade with a man as the main character, otherwise unchanged, IMHO. Or maybe it’s just ripe for one of those great Youtube parodies showing the absurdity of the premise when shown applied to the other half of the human race, which is to say, actually all of the human race.

It would be enlightening—not to say consciousness raising for some—to watch them in tandem.

What a steaming-pile-of-crap movie.  Which is what it’s designed to make women feel like, I presume. Thanks for the heads up so I can avoid it.

Comment #12: means are the ends  on  10/05  at  11:16 AM

On “getting to know each other,” I have been in situations where intense chemistry caused me to overlook rather glaring problems/incompatibilities. I think it’s about knowing yourself and what you need to do and not do to make smart relationship choices, more than it’s about some broad generalizable dating principle.

Comment #13: chingona  on  10/05  at  11:16 AM

When the man holds back, it’s interpreted as him not even being interested in the woman.

Right. Men are supposed to be upfront and direct about their feelings. That’s one of the things that makes them better than women. If women were upfront and direct too, how could men feel superior to them?

Comment #14: junk science  on  10/05  at  11:19 AM

In general, if you’re engaging in ritualised chastity, you probably won’t recognise it for what it is.  Which is why Amanda’s painting the advice in a “Men enforce this on you” is wise, even if it’s wrong, because people are really bad at seeing how this kind of thing applies to themselves.

They’re way more likely to accept that he’s doing it than they are to accept that they’re doing it.  Or they’ll rationalise it away (Hell, I might’ve done this once or twice, but that fact that I was fall-down drunk on the hookup, and sober on the date, is how I’d explain it to myself.  I’m a lot more timid about sex & whatnot when I’m sober - for the same reason I can’t dance when I’m sober - I overthink it.  But that doesn’t mean I’m not participating in the phenomena.)

Comment #15: Brian  on  10/05  at  11:23 AM

And then if the woman is persistent toward Mr. Hard-to-Get, she’s desperate and pathetic.

Comment #16: chingona  on  10/05  at  11:23 AM

Ariel, if that’s just human nature, though, why don’t men become more enticing to women by holding out a little?

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/05  at  11:24 AM

I will say in my personal experience, being quick to hop in bed with a guy can also add excitement and mystery. For the right kind of man, a woman who is up for sex is a woman who has adventure in her soul, and that makes her more, not less interesting.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/05  at  11:25 AM

The #20 thing (regarding the Anna Ferris movie), its such a brick wall! The premise that she could find true love with one of the guys she has already rejected (or been rejected by) or rather THAT SHE MUST because if she goes over 20, its over folks. Obviously, from the trailer, she’ll end up with that neighbor dude (#21) and so maybe the moral lesson will be that your number doesn’t really matter? Ugh, whatever.

Personally, I would like to find a way to articulate that individual people have their individual sexuality and that a woman’s sexuality isn’t dependent upon a man or vice versa, but in the actual chastity movement (and when most people talk about “virginity”) women’s sexuality is a fixed object to be handled by a man, approved by pater. The whole spitting in a cup and asking the last student in class to drink all the collected spit—“see, this is exactly like your body after you’ve had sex with someone; you’re just spit in a cup”—comes to mind. This movie just reflects a more broadened understanding of what being ruined would be—having 21 partners vs 1, but its still a reflection of this mentality that a woman’s sexuality is forever “tainted” by each and every partner (absent of STI’s or other DETECTABLE infections, this makes no sense), but it is a disease model writ large.

Also, just a total aside, I think it was from “Relax…Its Just Sex” (1998), there was a conversation in that movie that compared how straight and gay folks talk about sex or rather what constitutes “sex” to straight people vs gay (in this case, gay men). Straights seemed to call just intercourse sex, whereas gay men, it was observed, defined sex as any activity in which everybody got off. I kinda like that definition, so straight ladies—if you didn’t get off, then it wasn’t sex, ‘k? Or, more realistically sex is sex is sex.

Comment #19: Thealogian  on  10/05  at  11:25 AM

I don’t get it. What’s wrong with holding back on the first real date? Okay, you know you both want to fuck each other: so that’s taken care of. Now see if you enjoy each other’s company when sex is off the menu. This doesn’t seem unreasonable, or really very patriarchal. I think the survey people asked a lot of questions while already expecting certain answers.

But the movie looks god-awful.

Comment #20: felagund  on  10/05  at  11:28 AM

@Alex Weaver

“I’m not sure more than a handful of guys would actually have to fit it to get the distorted optics”

Well, Amanda pointed out the male anxiety of having too few partners. think that topic was dealt with pretty exhaustively on the previous thread on the “cost” of sex. So yeah, men have social pressure to have more sex, and probably also less social, physical and mental inhibitions when sex can be reduced to PIV and an easy orgasm.

Comment #21: ArielNYC  on  10/05  at  11:29 AM

Trailer Trashing notes that this movie is the only one this fall that seems to offer real roles to ppl of color: http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/10/03/trailer-trashing/

Comment #22: JonE  on  10/05  at  11:29 AM

There’s a really damaging narrative at play, for both men and women, that says we should always know what we want and that our wants should be static, unambiguous, and easily explainable. 

I think it flattens everything out and keeps us from talking about what we really need from people. 

If a person wants 47% to have wild hot sex, and 22% to have a strong, committed relationship, and 12% to hold out for perfection as they imagine it and 8% to have a friend who occasionally stops by with a pizza and sex and 11% is a swirling mass of unexpressable ideas and emotions and feelings about relationships inherited from their parents and peers, that’s okay.  We have to find a way to let that be what it is and tease out meaning and decisions slowly, in my opinion.

Comment #23: hideandseek  on  10/05  at  11:30 AM

One more thing: sleeping with a guy quickly strikes me as a better way to see if he’s all in or just wants to get laid. If you hold out, he might just pretend to be interested to get you in bed. If he drops off the face of the planet after sleeping with him, well, he just wanted to get laid, didn’t he? You wasted less time on him.  Or maybe not.  Maybe dating will intrigue him or or you or not or whatever.

Here’s what I’ve actually learned about dating in my nearly two decades of doing it: there’s no trick to it. People tend to like who they’re going to like and not like who they’re not going to like. If they need to be gamed a little to like you, they don’t actually like you. They just like the game. And so it’s not going to turn into a relationship, because people who like games are bored with intimacy.  Someone who likes games will probably cheat, for that reason.

So do what you like. Your only real hope in life is to find someone who digs you for exactly who you are, and you’re not going to get that playing games.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/05  at  11:30 AM

Jessica discovers that part of what’s going on is women round down and men round up to meet expectations. Men count oral sex and mutual masturbation as sex and women don’t as much.

I have to say, though, that I found this part pretty funny, given that the stereotype is that men only count PIV as sex and everything else is foreplay.

Comment #25: chingona  on  10/05  at  11:30 AM

This is probably an artifact of the fact that I live in the South, but a significant fraction of the women I have sex with - especially if it’s after only one or two dates - will afterwards ask, “You don’t think I’m a slut now, do you?”

Generally, I just reply, “I don’t believe in sluts,” or something like that. The thing is, these women aren’t, as far as I can tell, feeling guilty about having sex (thank god), they’re just worried that I think less of them for “putting out.” Which obviously I don’t, because I just “put out” too, after all.

Comment #26: Triplanetary  on  10/05  at  11:31 AM

Amanda: 

I will never, ever, ever understand men who are upset/disgusted/turned off by women wanting sex for pleasure.

It’s not being disgusted at the idea of a woman having sex for pleasure.  It’s jealousy and insecurity at the idea that you’re having to share.  A woman who is a virgin won’t have anything to compare you against so you will be “the best she’s ever had” by default.  If you are sexually insecure (and I’ll admit to feeling that way on occasion, especially when I was younger) then its galling to think you’re playing second penis to some other guy.

I think there’s also an element of belief that women want commitment and men don’t.  Yeah, girls want sex, but when it comes to a relationship they don’t want their partners to think they can get milk sans cow purchase.  Meanwhile, guys are purely sex-focused.  So turning down sex indicates a genuine lack of interest.

But I think there is a genuine and legitimate concern many women face, in part because they are often at a disadvantage against their male peers financially and socially and politically and whatnot, that if she sleeps with a man before they are firmly set in a relationship that the man will get bored and leave once he’s gotten what he wants.  There’s an idea that a woman needs a man but a man doesn’t really need a woman.  And that this idea isn’t entirely false, simply due to cultural expectations and gender norms.  So using sex as a bargaining chip rather than just engaging in it because its fun is considered normal.

Comment #27: Zifnab  on  10/05  at  11:35 AM

I don’t get it. What’s wrong with holding back on the first real date? Okay, you know you both want to fuck each other: so that’s taken care of. Now see if you enjoy each other’s company when sex is off the menu.

Hey, follow your star. If that turns you on, do it. But the whiff of judgment for those of us who don’t think that fucking and getting to know someone are at odds is what I think bothers me. I can assure you that you can end up in bed at the end of every single date and still get to know someone really well. You just do that talking thing when you’re not fucking. Surely it’s understood that you can go to dinner and then fuck afterwards; or fuck and then go to dinner, right?  Am I the only person who figured that dates can be a both/and thing? wink

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/05  at  11:36 AM

@Amanda Marcotte

I thought unavailable men can actually be quite enticing to women, no?

“being quick to hop in bed with a guy can also add excitement and mystery”

There’s no disputing that. But also being unavailable on occasions or playing a little aloof can goad your partner’s libido. Being unpredictable is a cheap thrill perhaps, but still a thrill. I really liked Clarisse Thorn’s piece on Feministe where she touches on this psychology and how this plays out in the big picture of relationships.

Comment #29: ArielNYC  on  10/05  at  11:37 AM

Here’s what I’ve actually learned about dating in my nearly two decades of doing it: there’s no trick to it. People tend to like who they’re going to like and not like who they’re not going to like.

This needs to be engraved on every single sexually active human being’s brain. It’s amazing how hard it can be to accept this simple fact, or to get someone else to accept it.

Comment #30: junk science  on  10/05  at  11:38 AM

[500 Days of Summer] What a steaming-pile-of-crap movie.

It came up on the movie network the other day, and I wanted to watch it to see if it was as bad as the Panda Review made it look to be. It was worse. I think I turned off the TV in disgust somewhere around the 20 to 45 minutes mark because I couldn’t stand how much of a whiny ass the main character was (also, that opening text about how this is all fictional, wink wink not really? way to be classy).

Comment #31: BlackBloc  on  10/05  at  11:38 AM

If you don’t want to fuck on the first date, don’t. That’s fine. Nobody should do what they don’t want to do.

But the idea that there’s some value to “getting to know each other better” before fucking is a complete social construct. Nothing prevents people from fucking and then getting to know each other better later on.

And indeed, if sexual compatibility and skill is important to you, it’s probably better to screw sooner rather than later. Otherwise you may end up getting emotionally invested in a person before realizing that he or she is a dud in bed.

I know people who do it won’t admit it, I have to think this is all a vestige of traditional sexist morality,I.e., that sex is less “wrong” if you “know” the person better. Fucking a person quickly is subverting that morality, which is a good thing.

And finally, the gender politics of What’s Your Number are just awful. Which is sad because I like Anna Faris.

Comment #32: Dilan Esper  on  10/05  at  11:40 AM

I will say in my personal experience, being quick to hop in bed with a guy can also add excitement and mystery. For the right kind of man, a woman who is up for sex is a woman who has adventure in her soul, and that makes her more, not less interesting.

This is how I feel. Obviously it’s a personal opinion, YMMV thing (contrary to Ariel and his typical “my personal preferences and experiences are universal!” bullshit), but my personal preference is for women who are upfront and open about their sexual desires. It’s not like I *require* women to hop into bed on the first date, but when I meet a woman who does, it makes me pretty happy!

I don’t appreciate it less because it was “given easily.” If anything I appreciate it more because it was less wrapped up in cultural sex-shaming bullshit.

Comment #33: Triplanetary  on  10/05  at  11:40 AM

One more thing: sleeping with a guy quickly strikes me as a better way to see if he’s all in or just wants to get laid. If you hold out, he might just pretend to be interested to get you in bed. If he drops off the face of the planet after sleeping with him, well, he just wanted to get laid, didn’t he? You wasted less time on him.  Or maybe not.  Maybe dating will intrigue him or or you or not or whatever.

I’m thinking of the opposite problem: You have sex right away. It’s totally hot. You keep hanging out. You keep figuring out that you’re really incompatible in all these other ways, but you keep seeing each other because ... hot sex! I’m talking about the ability to walk way from hot sex when nothing else is working, not so much worrying about “ruining” a possible relationship by having sex too soon.

Comment #34: chingona  on  10/05  at  11:40 AM

There’s an idea that a woman needs a man but a man doesn’t really need a woman.

It’s one of those ideas that needs to be repeated over and over because on some level most people realize it isn’t true. Kind of like “There is a god.”

Comment #35: junk science  on  10/05  at  11:40 AM

I think people fall back into these gender roles because it’s easier. When you’re hooking up, you’re living in the moment. But once there’s a possibility for a relationship, then presumably everyone has some emotional investment and is concerned about things like how they appear to another person they may not know very well. In that case, the easiest thing to do is to jump into the assigned gender roles that we’ve all been familiar with ever since childhood. Most men and women have heard this stuff all their lives and thus know what to expect from it, so they feel more comfortable. Because we’ve also been conditioned by society to think that having to explain yourself and discuss your relationship is unromantic and offputting, while magically “understanding” each other without any explanation is romantic.

Comment #36: sophronia  on  10/05  at  11:42 AM

Am I the only person who figured that dates can be a both/and thing?

I don’t think anyone has argued that they can’t. Only that they *needn’t* be every single time, and that there may be benefits to separating out the elements on occasion. Or are there only 3 people who’ve made terrible relationship decisions based on hot sex, and don’t want to do that anymore, and all of them posted on this thread? wink

TMI time: my bf and I hooked up in a drunky-drunk kind of intentionally bad-idea way. We were friends and took some liquid courage to kick it up a notch. Afterward, we totally stepped back from the physical side of things (for ages, like at least a month), to evaluate whether indeed we were doing a good thing. Lucky us, we were. It wasn’t a re-establish chastity thing, just a desire to move slowly in light of already-complicated emotional components.

The chastity ritual exists, but so do many many other things. Like you said—there’s no trick.

Comment #37: Well, what?  on  10/05  at  11:47 AM

Only that they *needn’t* be every single time, and that there may be benefits to separating out the elements on occasion.

I’m just not sure where you’re getting the impression that Amanda’s point is “YOU MUST FUCK SOMEONE ON THE FIRST DATE, ALWAYS.”

Comment #38: Triplanetary  on  10/05  at  11:49 AM

My number is 12. But then again, I stopped counting in 1978.

Comment #39: judybrowni  on  10/05  at  11:49 AM

I know people who do it won’t admit it, I have to think this is all a vestige of traditional sexist morality,I.e., that sex is less “wrong” if you “know” the person better. Fucking a person quickly is subverting that morality, which is a good thing.

I guess all those people who stayed in bad relationships for the hot sex just don’t exist, despite them telling you they do on this very thread.

Also, has it occurred to you that some people might find sex to be *hotter* when they know their partner well? That they consider close intimacy with another person to be interesting and hot and worthwhile in its own right?

 

Comment #40: Well, what?  on  10/05  at  11:50 AM

Also, this:

Yeah, girls want sex, but when it comes to a relationship they don’t want their partners to think they can get milk sans cow purchase.  Meanwhile, guys are purely sex-focused.

If guys were “purely sex-focused,” they’d be encouraging all women everywhere to be as slutty as possible, because that would increase their chances of having NSA sex. Women aren’t the ones who came up with that terrible cow and milk analogy.

The most sexist, obnoxious pricks I’ve met are bothered when they meet a girl who’s only interested in sex with them. Why aren’t they thrilled to find a woman they can have sex with and don’t have to pretend to like? Because what they really want is for a woman to be more attached to them than they are to her, so they can have “power” over her. They want the ego boost of being wanted by a woman, without having to feel vulnerable. If guys were “purely sex-focused,” they’d probably be a lot more fun, for one thing.

Comment #41: junk science  on  10/05  at  11:51 AM

I’m just not sure where you’re getting the impression that Amanda’s point is “YOU MUST FUCK SOMEONE ON THE FIRST DATE, ALWAYS.”

I’m not. I’m getting the impression that she thinks once two people have fucked at all, there is never any (good, non-patriarchal bullshit) reason to not fuck at all times. And I disagree.

Comment #42: Well, what?  on  10/05  at  11:51 AM

One of my longest relationships started with sex on the first date.

Would have ended in marriage (he asked), but I broke up with him (after years together).

He wasn’t right for me then (or marriage for me, ever), but we remained friends and I encouraged one of his work friends to date him (told her he was good in bed.)

And I danced at their wedding.

Talk about your happy ending to a one-night stand.

Comment #43: judybrowni  on  10/05  at  12:03 PM

One more thing: sleeping with a guy quickly strikes me as a better way to see if he’s all in or just wants to get laid. If you hold out, he might just pretend to be interested to get you in bed.

I doubt they’ll pretend to be interested for a long time, especially if they hear “I am searching for a serious relationship and prefer to become well acquainted first”.  Am I wrong? How long will such man be ready to date without sex? Surely less than a month? Want to understand how those men think.

Comment #44: reader  on  10/05  at  12:05 PM

Even the usual explanation—-that a small handful of women are the “excess” partners for all these men, doesn’t hold up—-a greater percentage of men than women claim to have more than 15 partners.

The sums have to add up, if you’re counting M-F pairings, and the averages are always going to be the same (assuming a closed group where no one is added into the group or leaves the group before the numbers are tallied). 

That doesn’t mean you can’t have a distribution like this:

man 1 through 500—16 partners each (8000 pairings)
man 501 through 1000—18 partners each (9000 pairings)
total of 17000 pairings

woman 1 through 500—8 partners each (6000 pairings)
woman 501 through 980—11 partners each (5280 pairings)
woman 981 through 1000—386 partners each (7720)
total of 17000 pairings

In this case, 50 percent of men have more than 16 partners, while only 2 percent of women do.

Comment #45: oldfeminist  on  10/05  at  12:12 PM

Which doesn’t mean I don’t think that the numbers women give are inaccurately low.  Just that it’s not mathematically impossible for the small number of women to be the “excess” partners for all those men.

Comment #46: oldfeminist  on  10/05  at  12:15 PM

I think the thing that shocked me the most about this movie was that she was all up in arms about the number 20. Not that I think people should freak about their number, whatever it is, but 20? That’s what she’s all up in arms about? Sheesh.

Comment #47: twg_  on  10/05  at  12:16 PM

My partner and I not only broke all the rules, hell- we threw the rulebook away (after lighting it on fire, then pissing on it to put it out).  I met him on Craigslist- he’d posted an ad for anonymous hookup sex, and I answered it.  We met up & did our thing…then realized not only that we had a lot in common, but that we genuinely liked each other.  I’ve been dating him steadily ever since.

But, there’s a catch.  He has severe medical issues (he’s disabled), and since he changed meds it’s really taken a toll on his sexual appetite.  To the person upthread who said men are focused entirely on sex & if he turns a woman down, he’s not interested…we’re proof this isn’t always true.  I know at least he’s not using me strictly for sex, and likes me for being ME (and vice versa).  Although I wish our sex life was better (it’s almost nonexistent now), I deeply care about the guy and understand that it’s purely a medical problem & not a matter of a lack of desire.

Sorry if this is a rather incoherent ramble, as I’m going on nearly 72 hours without sleep… X_X

Comment #48: Zephira, Queen of the Space Weasels  on  10/05  at  12:19 PM

I call bullshit on Well, what?

He’s got “the impression” that Amanda thinks “once two people have fucked at all, there’s (no patriarchal, no bullshit) reason for them to not fuck at all times.”

Because Amanda’s all about the forced sex, and “once you’ve touched it, ya gotta touch it again, no matter what or when!”

Talk about constructing a (slutty, stupid, irrational) straw woman!

Comment #49: judybrowni  on  10/05  at  12:19 PM

All this seems exhausting to me.  Humans, for as capable of logic as we are, are also so highly irrational when it comes to justifying what we want.

Does the number include oral, anal, hand jobs or the like? Or is it just PIV? It seems to depend on who is listing their number, to whom and when.  Like dudes might rank their number to include any sexual experience at all when talking to dudes. Women as well when talking to women? But to each other they round up or down depending?

I"m a hard core pragmatist about sexual activity and I think if one of the two people are naked and/or having some level of sexual stimulation designed to result in climax then that should count as a sexual experience. If a dude goes down on a chick (even if he only “counts” sex as PIV) to me they had sex.

People count things as sex (or not) to justify if it’s cheating or not cheating, or slutty or not slutty and I get kind of tired of it. It seems childish to me.

I think that might mean that many of us have much higher numbers than previously stated, but honest to freakin’ god, I just don’t think it should matter. It’s like counting fucking calories- a way to feel “good” in the face of something wonderful and delicious.

Comment #50: JulesAboutTown  on  10/05  at  12:21 PM

@Junk Science

“Why aren’t they thrilled to find a woman they can have sex with and don’t have to pretend to like? Because what they really want is for a woman to be more attached to them than they are to her, so they can have “power” over her.”

I haven’t met the NSA-only woman yet, but I do think the power issue is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, you know you the score better than the girl, so you feel in control, you’re not chasing. On the other hand, you’re not enthused. And you also feel more responsbile for unwinding the situation is the least painful way because of the feelings involved. In a way I think I’d rather delegate that control and responsbility to women, which is why I’d rather chase than be chased. So a true NSA situation doesn’t actually sound so bad.

Comment #51: ArielNYC  on  10/05  at  12:23 PM

men tend to benefit more from partnering up than women.

And men who want to be boyfriends are in ‘quiet despair’ and wouldn’t cop to it in a thousand years.

Comment #52: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/05  at  12:29 PM

People who scold young women for “hooking up” often claim to have their best interests at heart. They warn of broken hearts and feelings of rejection.

They warn of the same things when they counsel women not to get an abortion.  Coincidence?

Comment #53: Cris (without an H)  on  10/05  at  12:33 PM

Amanda@4 - I wrote that awkwardly. I should have specified I would be there with that pack that seemed to show up consistently with the “get to know each other better”. (And yes, sometimes that makes sense as a reason to slow down on the sex, and sometimes it doesn’t. I’ve been in both situations.)  The point I was aiming for was that it wouldn’t even have occurred to me to posit “ritual chastity protestation” as an explanation. (Even if it wouldn’t have been my first choice, the “being polite but not actually that into you” idea didn’t surprise me, as I can see that one easily as well.)

Comment #54: LC  on  10/05  at  12:35 PM

#43:

If guys were “purely sex-focused,” they’d be encouraging all women everywhere to be as slutty as possible, because that would increase their chances of having NSA sex. Women aren’t the ones who came up with that terrible cow and milk analogy.

First off, I should not have said “purely”, and I admit I’m indulging a bit in stereotypes as this obviously isn’t true for all men or all women.

But beyond that, an individual man wants all attractive available women to sleep with him exclusively.  So he wants women to be “slutty” but only around him.  That’s an obviously unrealistic goal and it immediately sets up conflict in both the internal and external narrative.  That’s where you get the conflicting statements that leave some idiot saying, “I don’t like sluts or prudes” as though there is any woman that could fit between those two metrics on his scale.  It’s also where you get the delusional male fantasies like “When I get to heaven, I’m going to have 72 virgins waiting for me!”

Comment #55: Zifnab  on  10/05  at  12:40 PM

#48:

The sums have to add up, if you’re counting M-F pairings, and the averages are always going to be the same (assuming a closed group where no one is added into the group or leaves the group before the numbers are tallied).

Now I’m just imagining a very scientific orgy.

Comment #56: Zifnab  on  10/05  at  12:42 PM

Ariel @6

And feeling like you’ve seduced someone is a more exciting feeling than having someone
throw himself or herself at you.

Speak for yourself, buddy.


hideandseek@25

There’s a really damaging narrative at play, for both men and women, that says we should always know what we want and that our wants should be static, unambiguous, and easily explainable.

I think that causes a lot of damage. I know people who have felt “betrayed” because their partner’s needs and wants changed, and others who have deliberately suppressed those needs because to admit it had changed would mean to somehow have “lied” about what was going on. Very toxic.

Amanda@26

If they need to be gamed a little to like you, they don’t actually like you. They just like the game

That’s certainly been my experience as well.

chinoga@36

I’m talking about the ability to walk way from hot sex when nothing else is working, not so much worrying about “ruining” a possible relationship by having sex too soon.

This was what I was talking about in my first comment.

 

 

Comment #57: LC  on  10/05  at  12:55 PM

Judy @41: lol!  Thanks.

Comment #58: helen w. h.  on  10/05  at  12:57 PM

  Questions:
  1. Why do romantic comedies have really absurd, in a bad way, plots? This seems especially true of the romantic comedies that are inclined to included sex or at least talk about sex in them. We had the absurd movie “Good Luck, Chuck” where if the main character had sex with a woman, she would immediately find her true love. This isn’t much of a curse. A curse would be if them women found true love simply by him asking her out for coffee. Than we have this bit of contrivence starring Anna Faris? Why can’t we simply have sweet and loving romantic comedies about two people falling in love for realistic reasons.

  2. Why does it seem that its better to produce good writing about awful/negative sex than it is to produce good writing about positive, happy sex? The sex in Philip Roth novels isn’t what one would refer to as romantic or even positive. They are rather well-written though. When writers try to produce more happy sex scenes they tend to fall prey to use some really bad writing technqiues. Even more so if they want the sex to be happy and romantic between true lovers or something like that.

Comment #59: Lee  on  10/05  at  12:57 PM

“I will say in my personal experience, being quick to hop in bed with a guy can also add excitement and mystery. For the right kind of man, a woman who is up for sex is a woman who has adventure in her soul, and that makes her more, not less interesting.”

I always used to promise myself I wouldn’t mess around with some guy too soon, but then I’d end up wanting to do it anyway. Contrary to popular anti-feminist beliefs, the guys I was eager to be with usually ended up being the quickest to be attached to me. The whole belief system that says men want sex and will never commit has never seemed true in the real world. In fact, I’d say the men I’ve been involved with and the ones my friends have dated actually get hooked on a partner faster than women do.

Comment #60: Ashley Herzog  on  10/05  at  12:58 PM

But beyond that, an individual man wants all attractive available women to sleep with him exclusively.  So he wants women to be “slutty” but only around him.

See in your first post, I thought you were describing stereotypes, not your actual view of reality. Now I’m not as sure.

Comment #61: Triplanetary  on  10/05  at  12:58 PM

If the concern is that you might stay in a bad relationship soley for hot sex, the solution is don’t get into a relationship if all you have is hot sex. Stay friends with benefits, or move on.

But there’s nothing about fucking early that compels you to get into a relationship with the person. Again, that’s just traditional morality. You can fuck the person, later get to know him or her, and break it off or keep it casual if it only works on a sexual level.

I think part of what is going on is some folks assume that if you keep seeing each other, things must “progress”. Not unless you mutually decide that they will.

Comment #62: Dilan Esper  on  10/05  at  01:00 PM

Amanda: But the whiff of judgment for those of us who don’t think that fucking and getting to know someone are at odds is what I think bothers me.

Well, I certainly wasn’t being judgmental. Fuck away!

But I also think you’re willfully disregarding others’ valuable learned experience. You do kind of have a bad habit of taking your personal beliefs on social and especially relationship issues and assuming that they are the right beliefs for everyone—e.g., you don’t feel marriage is the right thing for you, but you spend a lot of time writing about how it’s a bad idea in general, which isn’t a very easily supported statement.

Comment #63: felagund  on  10/05  at  01:00 PM

if I were in the situation where a one night stand turned into a date, I think I would wait to jump back into the sack, too. especially if I knew there was going to be a second date. because, as far as I’m concerned, fucking is easy, but that sweet feeling of yearning and desire comes not nearly often enough and I want to cherish it when it does. is it old-fashioned to get off on anticipation?

Comment #64: shade  on  10/05  at  01:03 PM

I think longing and anticipation are lovely things. I don’t need the veil of chastity to get into that though. Not saying you do, mind you, but I agree.

Comment #65: JulesAboutTown  on  10/05  at  01:07 PM

But there’s nothing about fucking early that compels you to get into a relationship with the person. Again, that’s just traditional morality.

See, this is the frustration. It’s not that I think you or Amanda are saying that everyone has to have the same sexual timetable or do things they don’t want. It’s that you are showing a lack of imagination about why other people might make the decisions they do.

Traditional morality has nothing to do with it. I KNOW that I’m not compelled to be in a relationship with the person. I WASN’T in a relationship with the person. But. For me. Having sex with someone that I would be embarrassed to have my friends meet, makes me feel like an asshole. Not because it’s immoral to have sex with someone you’re not in a relationship with but because not wanting your friends to meet the person indicates some sort of basic lack of respect for the other person. So I think that I should not be having sex with someone that I lack a basic respect for. And yet ... so hot!

I really didn’t want to explain this in this much detail. I guess what I would say is that everyone who has raised this point probably has something or someone very specific in mind, and it might not be what you are thinking.

Comment #66: chingona  on  10/05  at  01:14 PM

@Amanda Marcotte

“why don’t men become more enticing to women by holding out a little?”

I forgot to mention that I have indeed tried holding out to women. But only when I felt like a woman was playing with me and I needed to play back. Reverse-reverse psychology or some such. Which actually turned out to be a terrible approach. I wasn’t joking about sexual opportunism. I still kick myself for letting certain golden hookups slip away.

Comment #67: ArielNYC  on  10/05  at  01:15 PM

  Zifnab at 29: I think that the first paragraph of your post really explains why some or many men want women who are virgins or did not have romantic or sexual partners. Its certainly going to be more true for men whose romance/sex lives start relatively late compared to other people since they are probably going to have at least some feelings that they might be judged negatively for their romatnic/sexual performance. I’ve suffered from this sort of anxiety more often than I’d like admit while at the same time thinking that the advantage of dating somebody with experience, which is more statistically likely, is that at least one party would know whats going on.

    500 Days of Summer: I really couldn’t get why the guy, whose name I forgot, was attracted to Summer beyong the fact that she was pretty. Otherwise the character seemed to be nothing more than a bundle of hipster quirkiness. Nor could I understand why Summer would want to date that guy, who really didn’t seem that remarkable and even came across as something of looser since he didn’t seem that serious about pursuing his architectural career until the end. Why was he working in a greeting card company in the first place. Still the musical number was cute and a little funny.

Comment #68: Lee  on  10/05  at  01:17 PM

Nor could I understand why Summer would want to date that guy, who really didn’t seem that remarkable and even came across as something of looser since he didn’t seem that serious about pursuing his architectural career until the end. Why was he working in a greeting card company in the first place.

Yeah, why would a woman ever want to date a guy who’s not pursuing a high-powered, prestigious career?

Asshole.

Comment #69: Triplanetary  on  10/05  at  01:21 PM

#70:

I don’t think you will ever convince me that “I don’t feel comfortable fucking someone whom I wouldn’t want to introduce to my friends” isn’t at some level a vestige of traditional morality (that it isn’t acceptable to fuck people whom you aren’t “involved” with in other ways).

Nonetheless, it’s fine if you want to live by this standard. The problen is when popular culture endorses these sports of memes and reifies them, rather than accepting that people who want to just have hot sex with each other can do it, and damn society.

Comment #70: Dilan Esper  on  10/05  at  01:25 PM

Oh, and here comes PUA apolojism from our favoritest new troll.

Comment #71: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/05  at  01:26 PM

  Triplanetary at 73: Most architechts aren’t really what I called high-powered and the career isn’t exactly prestigious in the current socio-economic landscape. A prestigious career is something thats in the public imagination, something that leads to status. Being a business person, a banker, a Hollywood celebrity, a lawyer, medical doctor, or somebody in the politics and the upper levels of the civil and military services. Those are prestigious careers because they bring social status. Being an architect is more prestigious than being a baker but the amount of social status it confers is much lower than that of a doctor, lawyer, or banker.

  By loser, I meant that the movie provided no good reason why he wasn’t working as an architect other than he probably wouldn’t have much time to date if he was working as one since architects can put in long hours.

Comment #72: Lee  on  10/05  at  01:30 PM

@76: Oh. Okay.

Comment #73: Triplanetary  on  10/05  at  01:32 PM

Zif @29: then explain how men who think it’s slutty for their wives to use contraception with them exist.  I think it’s not logical in many cases, but a psychological disorder stemming from internalized misogyny.

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/05  at  01:34 PM

I wonder if this has anything to do with the tendency I’ve sometimes seen among straight women (I don’t remember ever encountering it among gay or bi women or from men) to adamantly insist that they and their current boyfriend never thought or behaved like they saw themselves as a potential couple before they, I don’t know, accidentally started making out one day.

By that I don’t mean “we didn’t really go on traditional dinner-and-a-movie dates”, nor do I mean “we didn’t see each other initially as potential partners”, nor even “I liked him because he treated me respectfully and not like a pickup artist”.  I mean they would really say they or the boyfriend behaved exactly like they would with same-sex platonic friends until they somehow turned into a couple (how exactly this is possible I don’t know).

This always mystified me, but reading this post I wonder if it comes from trying too hard to avoid seeming like someone who is ever out on the prowl for potential romance or who would date someone who ever has been.

Comment #75: neff  on  10/05  at  01:35 PM

The antidote to “What’s Your Number?” and “500 Days of Summer” is “Mr. Jealousy.” A 1997 movie about a man (Eric Stoltz) who can’t deal with the fact that the women he dates have had boyfriends before him and why this makes him an insecure asshole. Annabella Sciorra is the anti-MPDG who throws his crap right back at him.

Lester: We slept together awfully fast!
Ramona: Are you using my behavior with you against me?
Lester: ...I’m just saying…

Comment #76: MissCherryPi  on  10/05  at  01:37 PM

chin @36: I guess I don’t see a problem with having an ongoing purely sexual relationship. It’s probably only a problem if you feel that having frequent sex with someone means committing to a monogamous relationship, but there’s another option besides dating them or dropping them. And that is to get your pleasure out of each other while dating other people, and if you find yourself someone better for you overall, moving on.

Comment #77: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/05  at  01:39 PM

Naw, I think the guy in 500 Days of Summer was a loser because instead of focusing on his own life and goals, he tried to force a girl to stay in a relationship in which he was angry and confrontational a good part of the time.

When he wasn’t clingy, moping or depressed, he was picking a fight. Oh, so attractive, he was.

And yeah, it seemed that he was only attracted to her because she was pretty—what did they share in common, other than liking one band?

He seemed uninterested in what she wanted or needed, only that she was somehow supposed to make him happy about his shitty life. She and only she.

Not a surprise that when he began focusing on his own goals, Mr. Clingy Mopey Angry guy disappeared, and he was able to make a connection with a woman, without pressing and expecting a woman to solve all his problems with her love.

 

 

 

Comment #78: judybrowni  on  10/05  at  01:41 PM

Well @42: if you can’t fuck someone without it going somewhere and you struggle to keep those feelings separate, I can see temporary chastity as a way to sort it out. But it’s just funny the way some people assumed that inability to separate sex and deeper feelings is universal. For many of us, hot sex doesn’t actually compel a relationship, though it may compel more hot sex.

Comment #79: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/05  at  01:43 PM

@Amanda

“explain how men who think it’s slutty for their wives to use contraception with them exist.”

You mean in the sense that not wanting babies is slutty? Yeah beats me.

Comment #80: ArielNYC  on  10/05  at  01:44 PM

Junk science is correct on all points, especially the point that most dudes who are all concerned about “OMG slutz” are mostly interested in controlling someone.

@#41 judybrowni: Tell them that your number is 1100, in binary smile.

@#49 oldfeminist:  Mathematically impossible, no.  But it does strain the bounds of credulity.  (Also, waaay too much effort there.  This is the internet after all.)

Comment #81: progrocker  on  10/05  at  01:45 PM

@44 I never said that. I just objected to the notion that there’s a universal in play, where every single human being out there needs no-sex to truly see someone for who they are. It’s just more complex than that. You may need to keep it sex-free to get to know someone, but that’s just not universal. A lot of people just cleanly separate the two, and that’s fine.

Comment #82: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/05  at  01:45 PM

Helen @62, you’re welcome for the laugh I gave you @ 41.

All good comedy starts in the truth: in this case, both my setup and punch line happen to be true, but I built in the timing for a laugh.

Ba dum bump!

Comment #83: judybrowni  on  10/05  at  01:50 PM

Anyway, Well, in your defensiveness over this, you missed what I was responding to. I wasn’t talking about hypothetical responses to the scenario. I’m super-duper-awesome glad that yours was non-patriarchal, etc. But you aren’t everyone.

The actual research showed people interpreted the “slowing things down after a hook-up” maneuver as a woman trying to establish good girl status so she’s dateable. Which I find amusing, because the intended audience knows it’s a charade.

Comment #84: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/05  at  01:51 PM

It’s probably only a problem if you feel that having frequent sex with someone means committing to a monogamous relationship, but there’s another option besides dating them or dropping them.

It’s really annoying to keep explaining yourself and keep being told that you must mean something else.

On a basic level, I didn’t respect this person. Having sex with someone I don’t respect - over a period of time - starts to make me feel bad. It has nothing to do with monogamous. It has nothing to do with dating. It has nothing to do with traditional morality. It does have to do with my own sexual morality. My own sexual morality involves mutual respect between sexual partners.

Comment #85: chingona  on  10/05  at  01:54 PM

False, felagund. I have repeatedly pointed out the privileges marriage buys people. I object to them on a political level, and feel people are compelled to marry when they otherwise wouldn’t because of social pressures. But I grasp why people want those privileges.

Comment #86: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/05  at  01:56 PM

“My number is 12. But then again, I stopped counting in 1978.”—me

“Tell them your number is 1100 in binary”—prog rocker.

Thanks, prog rocker, but I’m a math illiterate (well, according to my SATs, I had the ability, but found it too boring to memorize or remember anything beyond basic math), so I have no idea what you mean by that.

But I’ll remember your line, if I ever have a sex situation with a mathematician, and want to make him laugh.

Comment #87: judybrowni  on  10/05  at  01:59 PM

I get it, chin, but that’s a really narrow, very uncommon problem. it happened, what, once for you? It certainly has nothing to do with the survey results, which indicate most “slowing it down” is about establishing gender norms for an ongoing relationship.

Follow your star. Just pointing out that within the “good girl/slut” model that MOST people operate with, there’s internal illogic.

Comment #88: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/05  at  02:03 PM

I do think, that even within this “let’s smash binaries” kinda community on Pandagon, people still like to argue with hypothetical binaries or at least throw those binaries at each other when arguing a point.

I don’t see why Amanda’s point (that you can both fuck and get to know somebody) is difficult to comprehend unless the only way you can read that point is: YOU MUST fuck right away to get to know somebody, vs. chastity charade.

Personally, I like good sex and I know that good sex (FOR ME ONLY) doesn’t happen right away. Because I’ve had the PRIVILEGE (thank you Feminist foremothers) to be somewhat slutty and figure that out! So, for me, I like to make out a few times (or at least once) in the early stages of dating and I rarely respond or pursue one-night stands because, meh (FOR ME ONLY). But then again, it took EXPERIENCE to figure this out. Unfortunately, this can look like a defense of the chastity (or redemptive chastity) club when its really a matter of my personal experience. Its completely reasonable to see that Lady X likes to fuck up-front, because, yeah, why not? That’s exciting and I’m attracted to adventure, so if you are too, then great…that both of our preferences are equally valid and a matter of EXPERIENCE and no binary is necessary, no one way is necessary.

Comment #89: Thealogian  on  10/05  at  02:04 PM

Just pointing out that within the “good girl/slut” model that MOST people operate with, there’s internal illogic.

I agreed with the post. I was responding to other comments and reactions to those comments.

Comment #90: chingona  on  10/05  at  02:09 PM

I guess I’m just a game-playing peon of the patriarchal system, because I see value in not having sex on the “real” date in the scenario posed in the survey.  Not because the woman needs to prove her non-slutty bonafides, but because it’s a way to test how the guy reacts to not getting laid every single time you get together with him.  A guy who reacts badly/whines/opts not to see you again is a manipulative (quite possibly abusive) douchebag.  And wouldn’t it be nice to find that out right away?

And the hook-up culture has plenty of toxic patriarchal bullshit all on its own, namely the embrace of the idea that if a woman has sex with anyone, she has to have sex with any random dude who offers, and, once she has sex with random dude, he gets free access until he’s bored with her.  Opting not to have sex on the “real” date would help weed out that particular brand of toxic garbage.

Comment #91: keshmeshi  on  10/05  at  02:19 PM

I agreed with the post. I was responding to other comments and reactions to those comments.

Uh, ditto. The bulk of my posting was responding to Dilan rather than Amanda, who was much more nuanced. I never appreciate being told I can’t possibly know my own mind, which is more or less what Dilan was saying with all the, “you’ll never convince me that people who do X aren’t *really* thinking Y.”

I should not have bothered addressing Amanda’s comment about both/and since it came with a wink and was not nearly so sweeping a pronouncement.

 

Comment #92: Well, what?  on  10/05  at  02:20 PM

Ok, I do not get this number thing. I am a second wave feminist so maybe it has something to do with age. Hmm. How many apartments have I had? I could get that, with some serious careful thought. How many hotels have a I stayed in? Nope. How many men have I had sex with? Something in between those numbers in the two digits.  How the hell am I supposed to know? How many men have I had multi-year serious relationships with? An easy number to count. That matters.  Was I supposed to keep an annotated list? I find this so strange. “Stayed in Hilton, slept with man in blue shirt, conference food better than usual”?

Comment #93: just sayin  on  10/05  at  02:21 PM

@#91 judybrowni:  1100 in binary is equal to 12 in base 10, but because binary numbers are represented by 1s and 0s, even small numbers can look huge (e.g. 100 in base 10 is 1100100 in binary).  I feel so dirty for explaining my own joke.  I’m pretty sure that’s the cardinal sin of comendy.

Comment #94: progrocker  on  10/05  at  02:25 PM

I wonder if this has anything to do with the tendency I’ve sometimes seen among straight women (I don’t remember ever encountering it among gay or bi women or from men) to adamantly insist that they and their current boyfriend never thought or behaved like they saw themselves as a potential couple before they, I don’t know, accidentally started making out one day.

By that I don’t mean “we didn’t really go on traditional dinner-and-a-movie dates”, nor do I mean “we didn’t see each other initially as potential partners”, nor even “I liked him because he treated me respectfully and not like a pickup artist”.  I mean they would really say they or the boyfriend behaved exactly like they would with same-sex platonic friends until they somehow turned into a couple (how exactly this is possible I don’t know).

This always mystified me, but reading this post I wonder if it comes from trying too hard to avoid seeming like someone who is ever out on the prowl for potential romance or who would date someone who ever has been.

I think this is profound. There’s whole category of these sorts of things.

For instance, consider the (in my experience usually female) partner in a relationship who insists on referring to her or his significant other as a “fiancee”, despite no wedding date being set, no plans having been made, no invitations sent out, etc. I’ve known people who have declared their boyfriends to be their “fiancees” for years.

It always appeared to me to be a defense mechanism against even the thought that a woman might just want to enjoy sex with a man absent compliance with societal moral restrictions.

Comment #95: Dilan Esper  on  10/05  at  02:31 PM

This nice girl/slut dichotomy crosses gender and sexual orientation lines.

Stay for the end of this anecdote, there’s a funny twist.

In the ‘70s, my (gay) brother was also my roommate for nearly two years in New York City.

Pre-AIDS and herpes awareness, he later told me he’d had sex with 300 men in that period.

But he was also on the hunt for a boyfriend, and I met several of those candidates who didn’t work out.

Until my brother met the man he’s now been living with for 35 years. (They’re forbidden to marry in their state, but they own a home together—and anywhere between 4 and 6 cats, depending on how many they’ve currently rescued.)

You’ll love this next twist.

My brother has begged me not to reveal just how awesomely slutty he was three decades ago, “You can’t tell Barry, I went to the baths!”

Barry was a serial monogamnist back then, apparently (although a bit of the speed addict), so my brother has to pretend to be a nicer girl than he was.

Even as a slutty girl in the ‘70s, there’s no way I could approach my brother’s numbers, and yet he’s the one (effectively) married for decades on end.

‘splain that, with conventional wisdom! (Oh, don’t bother: I know the reason, but the conventional wisdom has nothing to do with it.)

Comment #96: judybrowni  on  10/05  at  02:33 PM

I read Grose’s article, and some of the comments were jaw-dropping.  Guys wrote that the number thing made sense, because why would you put a lot of effort into getting sex from someone if they’d had sex with lots of other people?  Clearly, that person should just be givin’ it up!  Because if a woman has had sex with ten people, no one should have to exert any effort to get into her pants!  What a dupe!  She’s practically public property!

Comment #97: Kit-Kat  on  10/05  at  02:38 PM

I guess I’m just a game-playing peon of the patriarchal system, because I see value in not having sex on the “real” date in the scenario posed in the survey.  Not because the woman needs to prove her non-slutty bonafides, but because it’s a way to test how the guy reacts to not getting laid every single time you get together with him.  A guy who reacts badly/whines/opts not to see you again is a manipulative (quite possibly abusive) douchebag.

I’m not sure this is always true. I’m sure it is sometimes true, but bear in mind, given that we do live in a patriarchal society where women are encouraged to withhold sex until they obtain commitment, a guy could also conclude from a woman’s sexual refusal that she is some sort of “Rules” girl who doesn’t share the same sexual morality he does and is trying to manipulate him to proceed more quickly into a serious relationship.

The bottom line problem is that one of the things traditional morality encouraged was that people be dishonest about their intentions at the start of relationships. That men portray sex as a deal-breaker in order to get laid, and that women pretend they don’t want to fuck on the first date in order to obtain commitment and a relationship. If everyone was actually being honest and laying their intentions out, it might be possible to conclude that a guy who pushed going to bed on the first date was less likely to be seeking a more serious relationship. But given that there’s so much encouraged dishonesty with respect to the first date, that doesn’t necessarily work.

Comment #98: Dilan Esper  on  10/05  at  02:38 PM

Uh, ditto. The bulk of my posting was responding to Dilan rather than Amanda, who was much more nuanced. I never appreciate being told I can’t possibly know my own mind, which is more or less what Dilan was saying with all the, “you’ll never convince me that people who do X aren’t *really* thinking Y.”

That’s not what I said. I said you’ll never convince me that it isn’t a vestige of traditional morality. I’m not reading minds here; I’m commenting on the effects of a sexist culture.

Comment #99: Dilan Esper  on  10/05  at  02:39 PM

Thanks for the explanation of binary, prog rocker, I also Googled it.

Still don’t understand it (stubbornly so, probably) but I recognize that someone who would, will find it funny.

We live long lives in my family, so I’ll remember your joke, and don’t doubt I’ll find a way to slip it into a conversation sometime in the next two or so decades I’ve got left on this earth.

Comment #100: judybrowni  on  10/05  at  02:40 PM

@ judybrowni

I find the gay gender role dynamics utterly fascinating. Are sexual gay men studs or sluts? or both?

Comment #101: ArielNYC  on  10/05  at  02:40 PM

If everyone was actually being honest and laying their intentions out, it might be possible to conclude that a guy who pushed going to bed on the first date was less likely to be seeking a more serious relationship. But given that there’s so much encouraged dishonesty with respect to the first date, that doesn’t necessarily work.

The other problem is that people don’t always know what they want ahead of time. I think everyone (most people?) engage in a certain amount of bet-hedging.

Comment #102: chingona  on  10/05  at  02:48 PM

From *Gone With the Wind*:

“I wish to Heaven I was married,” she said resentfully as she attacked the yams with loathing.  “I’m tired of everlastingly being unnatural and never doing anything I want to do.  I’m tired of acting like I don’t eat more than a bird, and walking when I want to run and saying I feel faint after a waltz, when I could dance for two days and never get tired.  I’m tired of saying, ‘How wonderful you are!’ to fool men who haven’t got one-half the sense I’ve got, and I’m tired of pretending I don’t know anything, so
men can tell me things and feel important while they’re doing it. . . .  I can’t eat another bite.”

“Try a hot cake,” said Mammy inexorably.

“Why is it a girl has to be so silly to catch a husband?”

“Ah specs it’s kase gempmums doan know whut dey wants.  Dey jes’ knows whut dey thinks dey wants.  An’ givin’ dem whut dey thinks dey wants saves a pile of mizry an’ bein’ a ole maid.  An’ dey
thinks dey wants mousy lil gals wid bird’s tastes an’ no sense at all.  It doan make a gempmum feel lak mahyin’ a lady ef he suspicions she got mo’ sense dan he has.”

“Don’t you suppose men get surprised after they’re married to find that their wives do have sense?”

“Well, it’s too late den.  Dey’s already mahied.  ‘Sides, gempmums specs dey wives ter have sense.”

Sometimes I wonder how far we’ve really come.

Comment #103: Kit-Kat  on  10/05  at  02:53 PM

I said you’ll never convince me that it isn’t a vestige of traditional morality

How is that different from saying that people who insist they are acting on other motives are lying to themselves, exactly? Or would you say that ANY motive for delaying sex after an initial encounter is fundamentally rooted in that dubious morality?

The other problem is that people don’t always know what they want ahead of time.

Nonsense, we are all perfectly rational actors at all times. And we never ever get taken by surprise. wink

Comment #104: Well, what?  on  10/05  at  02:56 PM

One basic rule - I think this was maybe from Voltaire (?) or some 18th Century philosphe.

“Men tend to pursue that which flees them and flee that which pursues them.”

I would have it that this is ‘men’ in the ‘mankind’ sense and not gendered.

This plugs into the ‘hard to get’ mantra from women. I think that men have been conditioned for this ‘pursuit’ thing but it actually only works with women who would want them without the pursuit. In that sense you can’t really ‘woo’ or ‘win’ someone who’s just not into you to begin with.

Comment #105: KingElvis  on  10/05  at  02:57 PM

If I have sex with the same woman a few times, I start to fall in love.  I can’t help myself; even if I know the person is not very good match for me long term.  I’m not opposed to casual relationships; I just can’t manage to keep them casual.  A one-night stand can be great because because you get to have sex without too much risk that your heart gets broken.  If that turns to dating; holding back the sex for a little while to protect your heart is not such a bad idea.

BTW - I made my spouse wait until after a few dates.  I wasn’t going to risk going into a depression if it turned out she was a jerk.

Comment #106: RonO  on  10/05  at  02:59 PM

I guess I’m just a game-playing peon of the patriarchal system, because I see value in not having sex on the “real” date in the scenario posed in the survey… because it’s a way to test how the guy reacts to not getting laid every single time you get together with him. A guy who reacts badly/whines/opts not to see you again is a manipulative (quite possibly abusive) douchebag.

OK, but: with respect, this is game playing that seems to buy into the notion of a transactional relationship (pleasant companionship for sex). I wouldn’t call you a “peon” as your eyes are wide open, but this is basically a more self-aware version of “if you play hard to get, he’ll stay interested;” i.e. ‘if I withhold, a man worth having will respond in a pleasant fashion.’ 

That said, I support clear-eyed subversion of patriarchal rules for a leveling of the playing field. But it doesn’t strike me as optimal.

Comment #107: rb1  on  10/05  at  03:00 PM

I guess I’m just a game-playing peon of the patriarchal system, because I see value in not having sex on the “real” date in the scenario posed in the survey.  Not because the woman needs to prove her non-slutty bonafides, but because it’s a way to test how the guy reacts to not getting laid every single time you get together with him.  A guy who reacts badly/whines/opts not to see you again is a manipulative (quite possibly abusive) douchebag.  And wouldn’t it be nice to find that out right away?

Or, instead of making it all some intricate dance in which we test the other person, we could just be honest and upfront about what we want. “What we want” doesn’t have to be all sex all the time, and if “what you want” is no sex until the tenth date, you certainly have as much right to want that and assert that as someone who wants to fuck on the first date.

After all, what exactly is manipulative about the “opts not to see you again” outcome? “I’m sorry, I see you want something different than I do from this relationship, physically speaking, so we should go our separate ways” is the opposite of manipulative. It’s honest and open.

Comment #108: Triplanetary  on  10/05  at  03:01 PM

Because I find Chris Evans painfully hot I bit the bullet and saw What’s Your Number. On top of being an incredibly stupid premise it was a horrible movie to boot. It didn’t set women back but it tried damn hard to.

If this has already been discussed my apologies. I’m at work and can’t read through all 100+ comments.

****SPOILERS****

Anna Faris’ character is just pathetic all the way through, and she gives you nothing really to root for.  She has a bit of the manic pixie dream girl in her, she does these really weird clay sculptures that show her “true” passion and what she wants to do with her life.

Her relationship panic begins because her younger sister is getting married and their overbearing, divorced mother is on her older daughter to settle down. But they make sure you know the character wants that as well because the very first time you see her she’s waking up next to her friend with benefits and she gets out of bed to brush her hair, put on makeup, and rinse her mouth so that when he wakes up he tells her she always looks “beautiful”. I gagged. Then she gets fired and just happens to read the Marie Claire article about the bullshit number statistics and after playing a game at a bridal shower, proceeds to freak the fuck out when all the other girls numbers, save for the “slutty” one in the group, are under double digits. But since the slutty one is at 13 and she’s at 19 she just feels worse about herself and her prospects for marriage. There were so many cliches about how women view sex and commitment I found myself staring at my friend in disbelief instead of watching the film. There was even a blanket statement about how no woman enjoys “doggy style” but just bears it that actually made me mad, as someone who enjoys multiple positions, doggy being one of my favorites.

To make things worse, the “lost love” of Faris’s character turns out to be a wealthy, powerful son of a senator who is written as such a blatant asshole it’s cartoonish. But if you have any kind of a brain cell you know from the previews Faris will end up with Evans, who’s an asshole in his own right as he can’t even face the women he fucks the next morning. But Anna sees the good side of him, even as she dodges all his sexual advances and by making him wait they fall in love. This is only reinforcing the “all bad boys are just waiting for YOU to change them” trope. Though I will say Evans body is on full display several times and that kept me from gouging out my eyes through the rest of the movie.

But the kicker comes at the very end, after Faris has accepted that her #21 is her true love and this is the movie’s biggest bullshit cop out. She gets a call from one of her college spring break hook-ups (yes, she was tracking him down as a potential husband too) who, through voice mail, tells her they never actually had sex. She gave him a hand job, a bad one, and that was it. So yay! She found her true love at #20 after all! BLERGH. Though reading the study, I found it interesting that in comparison to the film, the study showed men don’t believe hand jobs are sex and in the film they followed that. There is a bit of acknowledgement in the film of the stud/slut dynamic but instead of going after that they went for the obvious. At one point Anna tells Evans “I love you #21” and then he replies “I love you #300 and something,” but she cuts him off before he can tell us the full number.

While I know Hollywood will blame the films failure on people not wanting to see women be funny, instead of women not wanting to see bullshit slut-shaming propaganda,  I am still happy this POS bombed like it did.

 

Comment #109: UltraMagnus  on  10/05  at  03:04 PM

How is that different from saying that people who insist they are acting on other motives are lying to themselves, exactly?

How are they lying to themselves? They feel that they benefit from a “wait a bit before fucking” standard, so they apply it to their own conduct.

Here’s the distinction. A man who, as a general matter, is sympathetic to feminism, might very well hold a door open for a woman on a date. His intention in doing so is to be courteous and nice to his date, and holding the door open accomplishes that.

Nonetheless, I would argue that as a matter of social criticsm, holding doors open for women on dates (and never the opposite) is a vestige of sexist “chivalry” in traditional courtship rituals.

Social criticsm and what people think are two separate things.

Comment #110: Dilan Esper  on  10/05  at  03:05 PM

500 Days of Summer: I really couldn’t get why the guy, whose name I forgot, was attracted to Summer beyong the fact that she was pretty. Otherwise the character seemed to be nothing more than a bundle of hipster quirkiness. Nor could I understand why Summer would want to date that guy

Yep.

I would rather watch a solid (even a passable) relationship movie than, say, Transformers to Hell and Back VII: This Time It’s Fo Realz, even as a guy (I know, right?)

It’s depressing that the relationships in the latter would probably be less unhealthy and less unrealistic than those in 500 days.

Comment #111: rb1  on  10/05  at  03:09 PM

But the kicker comes at the very end, after Faris has accepted that her #21 is her true love and this is the movie’s biggest bullshit cop out. She gets a call from one of her college spring break hook-ups (yes, she was tracking him down as a potential husband too) who, through voice mail, tells her they never actually had sex. She gave him a hand job, a bad one, and that was it. So yay! She found her true love at #20 after all! BLERGH.

Oh, this is really awful. The only redeeming thing I could possibly see in a film like this is if in the end, the plot resolved that a woman’s “number” didn’t really matter after all. Instead, they cop out and ratify that the number DOES matter.

It’s reminiscent of all the films where the pregnant woman considers an abortion but always decides to have the baby in the end. The consideration of abortion is supposed to be a nod to the pro-choice side, but if the protagonist always ends up choosing to bear the child, you are really saying that abortion is wrong.

Comment #112: Dilan Esper  on  10/05  at  03:10 PM

Or, instead of making it all some intricate dance in which we test the other person, we could just be honest and upfront about what we want.

Well, I’m pretty sure that is everyone’s ideal, but if we’re talking actual operating-in-the-world, people lie. And they especially lie about their sexual expectations, for all the patriarchal BS reasons under discussion in this thread. Even essentially well-meaning people.

But I agree that there’s nothing manipulative about ending a relationship/interaction that isn’t doing it for you. That is different from whining or reacting hostilely—a person who does those things IS in fact a person you don’t want to be with.

Comment #113: Well, what?  on  10/05  at  03:16 PM

I believe, that like every other sexual orientation, there’s a bell curve of sluttiness for gay men.

Before he met my brother, Barry was in a nine year relationship. (My brother had a high school boyfriend, more or less, but also “dated” girls, before he went through a slutty phase.)

I don’t doubt that Barry has been faithful to my brother for over 30 years.  My brother may have strayed once or twice early on, but then decided he didn’t want to jeopardize their relationship. Frankly, as in many heterosexual couples, Barry would (metaphorically) kill my brother if suspected he was cheating.

For some time they had mostly lesbian couples as friends, because most of their gay male acquiantances were single.

Then they met Mickie and Chuck, and one of their lesbian couple friends broke up.

My sister has also been with her wife for over three decades. Both my brother and sister settled down with their partners at about 23.

My theory is that my brother and sister were so close in age (11 months apart) that they were accustomed to being a pair from babyhood on. So that, rather than being gay or straight, probably determined their ability to bond with a partner.

I was four years older, essentially an only child in a dsyfunctional and broken marriage and family, which probably had something to do with my aversion to marriage. (Mid-century marriages weren’t particulary attractive set ups, if you were a women. My parents’ marriages were particularly gruesome spectacles, each in their own way. With the woman the loser, in both.)

Oddly enough, my brother and I became close friends as we moved into adulthood. Personality wise, neither of us are compatible with my sister, but again, I don’t think that has much to do with gay or straight orientation.

(Although there’s some research, that says gay male brains may be closer to that of straight women’s, than lesbians. Or that’s my scientific illiterate dumbing down, of the science:
http://www.amazon.com/Gay-Straight-Reason-Why-Orientation/dp/0199737673/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1317826741&sr=1-1)

Comment #114: judybrowni  on  10/05  at  03:21 PM

Dilan, I am just trying to pin down what exactly IS the vestige of traditional morality. Is it just opting not to have sex on the 2nd date, having had it already on the first, (or on a ONS)? Or is it the idea that sex can muddy the waters of establishing other compatibilities? Or both?

And I’m not trying to, like, needle or attack you on this—just trying to get on the same page.

Comment #115: Well, what?  on  10/05  at  03:24 PM

I can definitely believe that a lot of people think there’s a specific script to relationships that must be followed.  When I was in 6th grade, a lot of my classmates started becoming boyfriends and girlfriends, which at that age basically meant sitting together at lunch, playing together at recess, and talking on the phone when they got home.  I was too shy to as a boy to be my bf, and none of the boys I liked ever asked me, so I missed out (just like plenty of classmates).  But then as the next 2 years went by, I was afraid to ever have a boyfriend.  My concern wasn’t that he would not like me or that I would end up heartbroken.  My biggest concern was that I had never learned how to have a bf.  I didn’t know what to do and if I didn’t do it right, it would be awkward and embarrassing.  Of course I felt like I was the only one who hadn’t done this, so it would have been too mortifying to admit that it was my first time and I didn’t know what to do, because he would have already learned how to.  Being a dramatic preteen, I figured I’d be single forever because I never got that trial bf so I would never know how to have a bf.  Now, I have OCD so I don’t know how many other people would have had this type of insight, but my point is that, probably on a subconscious level, a lot of people are worried about having a boyfriend the wrong way.

Luckily I moved to a new school district for 8th grade and got a new start and realized that it doesn’t always have to follow the same script.  I’m glad I learned this lesson because now I realize that there isn’t just one right way to have a relationship with someone, and the important thing is to do what works best for both people.

Comment #116: bananacat  on  10/05  at  03:25 PM

Ironically, I love a good romantic comedy.

But there are so few of ‘em. Most are shitty, shitty, shitty.

Comment #117: judybrowni  on  10/05  at  03:30 PM

I’m actually surprised that in the survey, a more common answer wasn’t “One or both of the partners just wasn’t in the mood for sex that night”.

Comment #118: bananacat  on  10/05  at  03:32 PM

”(Reality actually demonstrates that this doesn’t hold up at all, because men tend to benefit more from partnering up than women.)”

That only make sense if you assume men are rational actors trying to maximize benefits to themselves. By way of example, by that logic men would eat well too, since we know that increases life expectancy and mental well-being. Yet we know that they don’t, that in fact being “manly” often glorifies pointlessly self-destructive behavior. Why assume that partnering up is the one area where men are suddenly rational utility maximizers?

Comment #119: heresiarch  on  10/05  at  03:37 PM

Dilan, I am just trying to pin down what exactly IS the vestige of traditional morality. Is it just opting not to have sex on the 2nd date, having had it already on the first, (or on a ONS)? Or is it the idea that sex can muddy the waters of establishing other compatibilities? Or both?

Here’s what I was referring to when I said my “you’ll never convince me” comment:

I KNOW that I’m not compelled to be in a relationship with the person. I WASN’T in a relationship with the person. But. For me. Having sex with someone that I would be embarrassed to have my friends meet, makes me feel like an asshole. Not because it’s immoral to have sex with someone you’re not in a relationship with but because not wanting your friends to meet the person indicates some sort of basic lack of respect for the other person.

The vestige of traditional morality is the idea that a woman should feel like an asshole for fucking someone whom she wouldn’t want to present to her friends in a social situation. That having, for lack of a better word, a pure fuck-buddy is showing some sort of basic lack of respect for the other person.

It has nothing to do with the authenticity of chingona’s feelings—if she feels that way, if you feel that way, then by all means, don’t do something that makes you feel like shit. But as a matter of social criticism, I want to live in a society that doesn’t make a woman feel like an asshole for having a regular casual sexual partner.

Comment #120: Dilan Esper  on  10/05  at  03:39 PM

While I know Hollywood will blame the films failure on people not wanting to see women be funny, instead of women not wanting to see bullshit slut-shaming propaganda,  I am still happy this POS bombed like it did.

I have a little glimmer of hope for humanity now that the Playboy Club has been canceled.  It turns out that you can’t just rely on the sexiness of women being “empowered” by being objectified, and that if you don’t have either nudity OR decent writing and acting, people really won’t waste their time just for the fantasy of living in a world like that.

Comment #121: bananacat  on  10/05  at  03:44 PM

I’m actually surprised that in the survey, a more common answer wasn’t “One or both of the partners just wasn’t in the mood for sex that night”.

Nonsense. There is always an evo psych reason reaching back to the dawn of humanity to explain every single individual action and decision we make.

Comment #122: Triplanetary  on  10/05  at  03:49 PM

Playboy Club has been cancelled!

Woo hoo!

I’ve been waiting for that, ever since the lead actress went out her way to frame Gloria Steinem, and any other feminist since that period, as “combat boot” wearers. (Which merely may have been her intent to deflect the upcoming press from the shitty pilot, and the shitty reviews show was about to get.)

Honey, you can now use those three-inch heels of yours to walk home.

Comment #123: judybrowni  on  10/05  at  03:52 PM

wonder if this has anything to do with the tendency I’ve sometimes seen among straight women (I don’t remember ever encountering it among gay or bi women or from men) to adamantly insist that they and their current boyfriend never thought or behaved like they saw themselves as a potential couple before they, I don’t know, accidentally started making out one day.

By that I don’t mean “we didn’t really go on traditional dinner-and-a-movie dates”, nor do I mean “we didn’t see each other initially as potential partners”, nor even “I liked him because he treated me respectfully and not like a pickup artist”.  I mean they would really say they or the boyfriend behaved exactly like they would with same-sex platonic friends until they somehow turned into a couple (how exactly this is possible I don’t know).

This always mystified me, but reading this post I wonder if it comes from trying too hard to avoid seeming like someone who is ever out on the prowl for potential romance or who would date someone who ever has been.

This actually kind of scares me, especially because you have never heard it from men.  (I’ve actually never heard it from anyone.)  It sounds like the sitcom set-up of a man pining over a woman but they’re “just friends”.  But of course she doesn’t really know what’s best for her and as soon as he finds a way to kiss her, she falls in love with him.  It makes me wonder if the men in these scenarios were predatory Nice Guys, or if the women really did feel something but feel like it’s cuter to be innocent and never have those feelings until a man initiates it.

Comment #124: bananacat  on  10/05  at  03:54 PM

I don’t really have time to read through the thread, so maybe this has been touched upon, but I did want to remark that pre-feminist awakening, I have done this exact thing, the “I’m-not-a-slut” date post-one night stand. It wasn’t really a show for the guy (because at the time, I really didn’t have that much investment in him – why should I after knowing him for so short a time?) as much as damage control for my own self image. I’ve since been in a relationship with the guy for 3 years and counting, and he’s fantastic and my best friend, so I hate to admit that the first date was probably for the wrong reasons. At the same time, I have to agree with Amanda that getting sex out of the way can filter out the dudes who only want one thing. Also, I found it took the edge off a bit.

Comment #125: JilliefromChile  on  10/05  at  03:55 PM

This is more complicated than do or do not, there are good reasons for having sex on the first date and there are good reasons for waiting.

I like to not have sex until I get to know someone, because I like the way anticipating sex feels.  I also don’t mind saying:  “Hey, I’d really like to have sex with you and I know that it’s going to be great, but I’d like to wait a while and this is why.”  If the response is, “but my balls, they’re blue.” Then we can both move on.  If it’s, “That sounds like a fun game, I’d like to play.” Then it’s on.

Comment #126: hideandseek  on  10/05  at  03:56 PM

And all of this is why I say, “I fuck for feminism.” Seriously. If I want to get laid, and there is a guy I’m interested in doing that with who would also like to get laid, then why the hell not? Screw whatever moral conventions and social judgements may be out there. Some guys have been one night stands, some friends with benefits, some turned into relationships, and some became just friends. I’m not sure how many people actually ask or keep track of their number of sexual partners anymore? I have no idea the exact number of people I’ve been sexually active with, however that is defined, but I haven’t had anyone I’ve dated actually ask. I’m guessing the number is well over 20, yet, I’m still capable of a relationship. It seems, since we’re sexually active adults, we can assume we’ve both had other partners. Who cares as long as you’re taking adequate safety precautions and everyone is a consenting adult?

Or, I’ll just continue to be “slutty” to subvert societal relationship “rules”.

Comment #127: Awkward  on  10/05  at  04:18 PM

This is more complicated than do or do not

Actually, it’s as simple as, “Do whatever works best for you.” We don’t really need universal rules, but what we do need is for people to not feel shamed about their choices as long as they’re not hurting anyone, whether those choices are to fuck everybody they can or to fuck one person in their entire life (or none).

Comment #128: Triplanetary  on  10/05  at  04:20 PM

That having, for lack of a better word, a pure fuck-buddy is showing some sort of basic lack of respect for the other person.

Except it wasn’t the fuck-buddy status that made her disrespect him, it was his personality that made her not respect him. According to her post. She did not respect him, had sex with him anyway, and then felt like shit for having sex with someone she didn’t respect as an individual enough to introduce him to a friend.

If I met the world’s absolutely hottest man, and he was into me, and he was a Tea Partier, or pro life, or in some other way a blithering idiot (just a hypothetical), I would have to very carefully weigh the idea of having sex with that person, because I feel like respect is one component of a fun, safe, mutually satisfying sexual encounter.

This is different from not wanting to have a ONS with Hot Moron because I would only have sex when a *relationship* is on the table, and he wasn’t relationship material.

Comment #129: Well, what?  on  10/05  at  04:21 PM

@#49 oldfeminist:  Mathematically impossible, no.  But it does strain the bounds of credulity.  (Also, waaay too much effort there.  This is the internet after all.)
Comment #85: progrocker on 10/05 at 01:45 PM

It was a maximum of five minutes with a spreadsheet, knowing how to write formulas because I use them every day, and already knowing I was right.  Math isn’t always hard for girls, you know.

Comment #130: oldfeminist  on  10/05  at  04:27 PM

@63 (2)—because fiction requires conflict.  No strain/ambiguity/antipathy/varied agendas = no dramatic tension and from there no story.

I didn’t stop counting as long ago as judybrowni [LOL] but yeah, numbers get big as you get older even if you’re not knockin’ boots that much.  Just saying.

Comment #131: Unree  on  10/05  at  04:29 PM

Traditional morality has nothing to do with it. I KNOW that I’m not compelled to be in a relationship with the person. I WASN’T in a relationship with the person. But. For me. Having sex with someone that I would be embarrassed to have my friends meet, makes me feel like an asshole. Not because it’s immoral to have sex with someone you’re not in a relationship with but because not wanting your friends to meet the person indicates some sort of basic lack of respect for the other person.
Comment #70: chingona on 10/05 at 01:14 PM

I think this makes perfect sense.  I might not want to do other activities with someone I don’t respect, even though that activity doesn’t require us to be friends.  When you add in the sex part, if you don’t respect them, maybe that means you feel you’re taking advantage.  Or that they may be dishonest or otherwise flaky such that having had sex with you they might try to “expose” you or belittle you or otherwise have their negativity magnified because they’re dragging your sex life into it.

Comment #132: oldfeminist  on  10/05  at  04:30 PM

Except it wasn’t the fuck-buddy status that made her disrespect him, it was his personality that made her not respect him. According to her post. She did not respect him, had sex with him anyway, and then felt like shit for having sex with someone she didn’t respect as an individual enough to introduce him to a friend.

If I met the world’s absolutely hottest man, and he was into me, and he was a Tea Partier, or pro life, or in some other way a blithering idiot (just a hypothetical), I would have to very carefully weigh the idea of having sex with that person, because I feel like respect is one component of a fun, safe, mutually satisfying sexual encounter.

Understood, but there’s several different things going on here:

1. Feeling that you shouldn’t have sex with someone because you don’t respect him.

2. Feeling like an asshole because you did have sex with someone whom you don’t respect.

3. Feeling like an asshole because you did have sex with someone whom you could not present to your friends.

4. Feeling that you want to wait before having sex with a guy so that you can verify that you respect him or that he can be presented to your friends.

As I said, if 4 floats your boat, that’s fine. Do it. And if 1 floats your boat, do it too. I think Amanda has posted how she wouldn’t be willing to even have casual sex with a right wing pro-lifer. Fair enough. Don’t.

The part that I think gets into social constructs is 2 and 3—that a woman who pursues hot sex with someone who isn’t relationship material should feel like an asshole. No, she shouldn’t. In other words, if a feminist woman met some awful tea party pro-life dickwad who was also hot as hell, and the two of them somehow hit it off and both agreed “wouldn’t it be funny if we had sex”, and there’s no relationship potential whatsoever and the feminist would never want to present the guy to her friends or anything of the sort, and she decided to fuck him and they had hot, amazing sex, no, she shouldn’t feel like an asshole. Why? Because I view that as a subset of the more general point that “women shouldn’t be made to feel like assholes for pursuing casual sex”.

That doesn’t mean any particular woman has to do it, especially if she personally would feel like an asshole if she did. Only that I think the longer term goal should be to have as few women feeling like assholes for pursuing casual sex with problematic partners as possible.

Comment #133: Dilan Esper  on  10/05  at  04:32 PM

rb1 #115: Another thing that bugged me was that it took place in LA but none of the characters had cars. Most of them seemed to rely on transit to get around. LA is building a semi-decent transit system but its still very much a car city.

Comment #134: Lee  on  10/05  at  04:36 PM

I think you’re equating “respect” with “relationship material,” when they are not the same thing.  I can totally understand feeling crappy about having sex with someone you don’t respect.  I can understand feeling crappy because you had sex with someone you would never want to be seen with in public.  It feels like a separate issue from having casual sex.  I can imagine having sex with someone I had zero interest in having a relationship with, but who I respected, and not feeling remotely bad about it in any way.  (I can imagine it, because I’ve done it.)  I can imagine that I would feel very differently if I had the sex with someone I didn’t respect or like.  I’m not saying that a woman *should* feel bad about it, I’m just saying that feeling bad about it isn’t really about violating some social code, but about violating a personal code that says that respect is an important part of sex, and a sense that I would feel bad if I found out that I had sex with someone who had no respect for me as a person, so I shouldn’t do that to someone else.

Comment #135: Kit-Kat  on  10/05  at  04:45 PM

2 and 3—that a woman who pursues hot sex with someone who isn’t relationship material should feel like an asshole.

Except that 2 and 3 don’t say that!!!

2) There are dozens of people in my daily life whom I like and respect but don’t consider relationship material for whatever reason; this is probably not a unique situation to be in. I would not feel like an asshole having casual, NSA sex with them. Because I respect them, and they respect me, and I could expect that respect to be reflected in the encounter on both sides.

3) “Present to friends” doesn’t have to mean as a sig other, shit, it could just mean “I am embarrassed to even have spoken to this person.” And that ties back into number 2, again.

Re: the feminist/teabagger pairing. Disagreement /= disrespect. Or doesn’t have to. I personally consider pro-lifers to be slime. I can’t trust myself to be kind or decent to them. This is a failing of mine, but it would be a much bigger failing for me to ignore the failing and have an intimate experience with someone I can’t trust myself to treat respectfully. Oldfeminist at 136 explained this all better. 

In sum: the gap between “relationship material” and “person I respect as an individual” is tremendous. In your post at 137 you go back and forth between the two like they are the same.

Nobody should feel like shit for pursuing casual sex; nobody should feel like shit for pursuing problematic partners. People should be allowed to feel like shit when they violate their own standards, whatever those standards may be.

 

Comment #136: Well, what?  on  10/05  at  04:47 PM

@ kit-kat. Jinx (ish).

Comment #137: Well, what?  on  10/05  at  04:49 PM

Amanda:

then explain how men who think it’s slutty for their wives to use contraception with them exist.  I think it’s not logical in many cases, but a psychological disorder stemming from internalized misogyny.

Ok, you’ve got me there.  I’ve certainly never encountered that, but I’ll take you at your word that people like that exist.  That’s just stupid and flat out makes no sense to me.  I’ll happily write it off as “mental health condition”.

Comment #138: Zifnab  on  10/05  at  04:52 PM

I would never have casual sex with someone I disrespect, but I have had sex with men I have no interest in dating many times.  Sometimes people have different interests than I do.  I don’t disrespect them for it, but nor do I want to do those things with them.  Likewise, I don’t expect them to do things I like that they already know they don’t like.  So in the cases where sex is the only thing we enjoy, it’s the only thing we do together.  It has nothing to do with respect.

I like playing D&D.  My best friend from college doesn’t like it.  I don’t expect her to play it with me, but I don’t feel disrespected when she doesn’t.  We do other things together that we both enjoy, like trying out new restaurants.  I also have some friends who I only play D&D with, and we don’t really want to do anything else together.

I don’t see how sex is any different, as long as we’re honest with ourselves and each other.  It’s not for everyone, but it certainly does not imply lack of respect.  And I can’t believe that I really have to re-hash this again, and on this very blog.

Comment #139: bananacat  on  10/05  at  04:53 PM

Only that I think the longer term goal should be to have as few women feeling like assholes for pursuing casual sex with problematic partners as possible.

Depends how you define “problematic”. I agree with oldfeminist in #136. Problematic people can bring problems into your life even after 1 night stand: lying about not being ill, lying about 1001 other things, stalking, doing things in bed without asking permission, etc. I am all for women not feeling guilty, but I am also for being at least somewhat careful and using common sense. For both genders, but imho women are in more danger in such situations and one can take a risk, if one wants, but closing one’s eyes and switching off one’s brain must not happen. If he is a jerk, good chance that he’ll be a jerk to you too.

Comment #140: reader  on  10/05  at  04:53 PM

Oh by the way, I’m not the “girl bad at math” stereotype: according to my SATs I was surprisingly “good” at math, it just bored the bejesus out of me.

Other than Geometry, which seemed to have a story.

In my family, we split up the right brain, left brain thing. My father the rocket scientist, my sister the doctor.

Interestingly, my brother the designer is studying for a second career in the medical field, science was a secondary interest of his, after art.

But he’s also bored to tears being forced to memorize Algebraic equations again, and now Advanced Algebra, after 40 years since his last math class.

My sister assures him that he’ll need maybe one of those equations in his new career in Sonography, but somebody has to employ all those alegebra professors.

And he’s looking forward to physics, despite the math.

Comment #141: judybrowni  on  10/05  at  04:58 PM

I’ve observed that most people—regardless of gender—get excited when they know someone is into them. When a woman asks a guy for a date or hooks up with him, his reaction is more likely to be “DUDE SHE’S TOTALLY INTO ME” than “Aw man, I wanted to pursue her and conquer her.” “Playing hard to get” often gets read as “running hot and cold,” which seems to be more of a turn-off than a turn-on, except among the biggest drama llamas (this applies regardless of which gender is “playing hard to get” with which gender). Maybe this is just the people I know?

But I would absolutely believe that lots of women feel like in a “real” relationship, they should hold off on having sex—even if you’re starting a “real” relationship with someone you hooked up with last week. Like there are hook-ups, and then there are “real” relationships which must proceed according to the “traditional” model, and you can’t combine them. If you hook up with someone and then want a real relationship, you must start over from the beginning with a chaste “getting to know each other” first date, and pretend like you totally didn’t have sex last week.

I’d also link this to the way people still feel like they have to have “traditional” marriage proposals for their engagement to really count. Especially with the “he would have asked for the date if he wanted to see her again” part. That reminded me so much of how whenever I bring up the idea of a woman proposing to a guy, everyone says “I want to wait for him to propose, because that way I’ll know he REALLY wants to get married.”

Comment #142: snowmentality  on  10/05  at  05:05 PM

On respecting fuck buddies:

Sometime back in the ‘70s, I remember turning to a friend and saying, “I could never fuck a Republican, could you?”

She agreed that she wouldn’t either (and at the time, we were both happy slut BFs.)

To this day, I’ve never fucked (literally) a Republican.

That I’m aware of.

Hey, it was the ‘70s.

Comment #143: judybrowni  on  10/05  at  05:06 PM

This actually kind of scares me, especially because you have never heard it from men.  (I’ve actually never heard it from anyone.)  ...[clipped]...  It makes me wonder if the men in these scenarios were predatory Nice Guys, or if the women really did feel something but feel like it’s cuter to be innocent and never have those feelings until a man initiates it.

I’ve been in that scenario before, twice.  I probably would’ve been interested if it had crossed my mind, but it never did - probably because I never would’ve guessed either one could be interested, I guess.  Turned out, I was wrong.

Comment #144: Brian  on  10/05  at  05:25 PM

Lee, but most of the action in 500 Days takes place in downtown LA, a growing mecca of young professionals and arty types who live there precisely because it’s one of the few places in LA where you can get by without a car.  Granted most of us who live there still have cars, but more and more people are going without in that area, so I didn’t find that grossly inaccurate, given the demographic of the characters in the film.

Comment #145: chareth cutestory  on  10/05  at  05:32 PM

Somehow I always have the “pursuer” role thrust upon me, despite my “endearingly awkward” demeanor, probably because I’m the butchest thing I know that still ID’s as a woman, and this makes ladies expect me to make the moves. I quickly learned how to read the signs that a girl is into me and to do something about it because otherwise nothing would ever happen!

I’ve been with relatively inexperienced women before who cut me off at making out a few times before the sex occurred. This did not make the chase more exciting. It was just frustrating. We both desperately wanted it but there was something holding her back… I didn’t bother asking why because I didn’t want to push.

I think I know what it is, though, because I’ve been there; I distinctly remember this with the second girl I ever slept with (kissed even). We’d been making out in her bed all night and we were both super horny but for some reason I felt like I shouldn’t have sex with her, not yet. Somewhere around 6 in the morning I said, “Fuck it,” and I’m glad I did. Surprise, nothing bad happened! I later married that girl (thanks, CA Supreme Court!), and I was cured of my “I need to get to know you!” hesitations.

By nature of being raised women, even radical feminist dykes like me still have, at first, this warning light that goes off in your head telling you not to be “easy.” I think once women have a lady or two under their belts, this goes away, but I suspect with all the gender-politics bullshit that goes with a heterosexual relationship, it often doesn’t go away, which is a real shame because just getting what you want is a lot more satisfying than playing hard to get. Maybe holding off for a couple of hours builds some nice sexual tension, but a couple of dates? No thanks. I’d rather have someone without hangups who is clear about what they want.

By the way, my number is 15 (and counting).

Comment #146: artdyke  on  10/05  at  05:43 PM

I hope I’m not repeating anything from upthread, but I really had to respond to this sentiment:

“It’s not being disgusted at the idea of a woman having sex for pleasure.  It’s jealousy and insecurity at the idea that you’re having to share.”

“Its certainly going to be more true for men whose romance/sex lives start relatively late compared to other people since they are probably going to have at least some feelings that they might be judged negatively for their romatnic/sexual performance.”

I totally understand the insecurity.  I definitely felt this way when I was younger.  But I doubt a guy ever considered lying to me about his “number” in order to make me feel better about it, because my insecurity was not externalized into disgust for men who are insufficiently willing to compromise themselves and their needs in order to bolster some 18 year old virgin’s sense of her own sexual prowess. 

I’d guess that almost every inexperienced person (probably rightly!) feels insecure, and there’s obviously nothing wrong with that.  The problem is when, instead of dealing with it the same way one would deal with an insecurity about any skill (by getting a bunch of practice), the entire issue is outsourced by declaring that the problem isn’t with them, it’s with the skanks.  And somehow everyone else plays along.  That’s misogyny, and quite frankly I don’t see why we should care whether it comes from insecurity or whatever else.

Comment #147: mamram  on  10/05  at  05:52 PM

The problem is when, instead of dealing with it the same way one would deal with an insecurity about any skill (by getting a bunch of practice), the entire issue is outsourced by declaring that the problem isn’t with them, it’s with the skanks. 

This is a totally separate discussion, but I think A LOT of societal problems relating to sexuality are caused by our inability to think of it as a skill, even though it very much is one (nobody knows what they are doing the first time).

Comment #148: Dilan Esper  on  10/05  at  05:57 PM

@#134 oldfeminist:  Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that I thought you were bad at math.

Comment #149: progrocker  on  10/05  at  05:58 PM

This is a totally separate discussion, but I think A LOT of societal problems relating to sexuality are caused by our inability to think of it as a skill,

This is definitely likely. A lot of jerkish behavior, pseudo-coy behavior, and definitely a whole lot of missed opportunity comes from a basic fear of being “caught out” as not sufficiently good at any given sexytime thing, and assuming one must be a pro in all encounters.

Maybe holding off for a couple of hours builds some nice sexual tension, but a couple of dates? No thanks. I’d rather have someone without hangups

As has been noted above, people do exist who enjoy the prolonged sexual tension. These people know exactly what they want; it is just not what you want, and you are not obligated to date them. However: Dismissing a different and harmless preference as a “hangup” is a jerk move.

 

Comment #150: Well, what?  on  10/05  at  06:04 PM

Oh good grief. I step away from the internet for a few hours to get some work done and now I apparently think women who have non-relationship sex are assholes.

Except it wasn’t the fuck-buddy status that made her disrespect him, it was his personality that made her not respect him.

Thank you for actually reading my comments.

And I didn’t even say that other people shouldn’t have casual sex with whoever or be fuck-buddies with whoever. Fuck all the pro-life Republicans you want. Keep a whole stable of ‘em for all I care.

In my very first comment, I said that people should try to figure out what works for them and then do whatever that is.

Comment #151: chingona  on  10/05  at  06:18 PM

Fuck all the pro-life Republicans you want.

But keep in mind that they probably won’t go down.

Comment #152: Triplanetary  on  10/05  at  06:24 PM

Off-topic, but I don’t fuck pro-life people on principle, ESPECIALLY men. If I get knocked up, I know what I’m going to do, and I don’t need any grief for it.

Comment #153: JilliefromChile  on  10/05  at  06:57 PM

judbrowni: Pre-AIDS and herpes awareness, he later told me he’d had sex with 300 men in that period

I’m gay, 52, I stopped counting after 200 partners but I think that’d be roughly the final tally for me too.  I actually lost interest in pursuing recreational sex when I realized how easy it was to get laid with other gay men! Due to the prevalence in Los Angeles in the late 70’s/early 80’s of bathouses and bars that were essentially sex clubs, an average looking/built guy like had no problem getting busy as long as they didn’t have stupid barriers like “I’ll only sleep with 6’5” blonde dudes with shaved chests and perfect teeth” or “I’m only in to 19 year old Mexicans” or whatever.

I’ve been celibate since 1999, and the best sex I ever had was with my first boyfriend, in the basement bedroom of a house in Kansas City, while a thunderstorm was going on.  Just magical, a merging of souls.  The second best sex ever was with two dudes in a sex club in Hollywood called the Zone in the early 90’s.  We never spoke a syllable to each other; I collapsed walking to my car because, as Jim Morrison put it

Love me one time
I could not speak
Love me one time
Yeah, my knees got weak

I had to sit in my car for about 15 minutes before I could press the gas pedal down.

Good times, good times.

Comment #154: Henry Holland  on  10/05  at  08:34 PM

Amanda, 26:

sleeping with a guy quickly strikes me as a better way to see if he’s all in or just wants to get laid. If you hold out, he might just pretend to be interested to get you in bed. If he drops off the face of the planet after sleeping with him, well, he just wanted to get laid, didn’t he? You wasted less time on him.

That’s what always puzzled me about the whole “make him wait until the third date if you want a relationship.” I’m male and never had to put up with slut-shaming, but I can’t see going from wanting a relationship to not wanting a relationship because we fell right into bed. Unless she’s a lousy lay.

Lee, 63:

Why does it seem that its better to produce good writing about awful/negative sex than it is to produce good writing about positive, happy sex?

Happy couples are all alike.

neff, 79:

I wonder if this has anything to do with the tendency I’ve sometimes seen among straight women (I don’t remember ever encountering it among gay or bi women or from men) to adamantly insist that they and their current boyfriend never thought or behaved like they saw themselves as a potential couple before they, I don’t know, accidentally started making out one day.

Well, now you’re hearing it from a man, because that’s exactly what happened to me, unless you mean something other than “we started out as friends and it grew from there.” Sometimes people say that because it’s the case.

Comment #155: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/05  at  10:37 PM

And how about the statistics that men despair more over breakups and the loss of a woman than the other way around? Women tend to outlive their husbands, and very few commit suicide or die because they’re so depressed. Women get together with their friends and carry on. Men, on the other hand, are six times more likely to die within a year of their wife’s death. When my grandmother died, the saddest part was the heartbreak my grandpa was obviously feeling. We were worried for him. A year later, he got a girlfriend, which I think gave him some hope. Men cling onto women quite often.  But the conservative belief is that men never fall in love and have to be coerced into relationships with women in order to get sex.

Comment #156: Ashley Herzog  on  10/05  at  11:07 PM

I think that some women I am friends with have been so sexually pressured in relationships (i.e., guys will get the women to commit so that they can demand sex) that having a sexless date would be a way of them being reassured that their current partner does not feel entitled.  And there is nothing wrong with that.

Also, while I do not think delaying sex makes the relationship more serious, I think that some people also delay sex because they prefer sex in a certain context—where they can communicate enough with the person prior to sex so that they feel safe with them during sex.  I have had some men really pull some changeups on me just in the first four dates.  Now, if someone goes into the sex thinking “this could be sex, and I could never see/fuck this person again, and I would still be happy” that is probably not a risk.  But if the person goes into sex believing that there is a certain level of attachment, the earlier on in a relationship (on average, some people can be easy to understand really quickly) the higher the risk that you are misreading the situation.

Also, seconded and thirded people who are distracted by hot sex into being in relationships with partners who aren’t the best.  Not because I was against casual sex, but because for some of us, hot sex creates a sort of halo around the person, and yeah.  That was a problem for me earlier in my life.  But it did cause me to warn my religious friends that lust can be blinding.  And the more at home you are with your lust, and the more willing to identify it as perfectly okay lust feeling, instead of sacred love feeling, the less likely you are to worship someone for simply being super attractive to you.

Comment #157: Ismone  on  10/06  at  01:18 AM

@Henry Holland 159—wow, just wow.

Comment #158: Unree  on  10/06  at  01:34 AM

Who are these rude-ass people ASKING for the number?  Jesus.  If some guy asked me how many people I slept with, I would show him the door.  He has no business asking for that information.  He can ask me if I’ve been safe, if I’ve been tested, if I like it this way or that, if I’ve tried this or that with anybody, but you have no business getting a number from me.  Also, I would be concerned why this guy is asking and if he has a notebook handy in which to jot down my name/statistics/grade.  Sheesh.

And I like the commenter above who likened it to living in a place versus staying in a hotel.  I can’t remember how many hotel rooms I’ve stayed in over the years, but I do know about all the places I’ve lived/owned/rented.  Because I was INVESTED in those.

Comment #159: speedbudget  on  10/06  at  07:49 AM

@#134 oldfeminist:  Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that I thought you were bad at math.
Comment #153: progrocker on 10/05 at 05:58 PM

Okay, I may have misread.  I believe you didn’t intend that.

But it seemed odd that you said I was trying too hard while you simultaneously whipped out your mad binary number skillz.  You probably didn’t mean it, but you might want to check your assumptions as to why it seemed natural for you, not natural for me. 

In an internet argument, the number of people who will have great math skills and tools at hand, and are willing to use them when someone says something that is obviously wrong, is normally very much nonzero. 

I mean, I wasn’t arguing against Amanda’s point, anyway, so I was trying too hard to—what, exactly?

Comment #160: oldfeminist  on  10/06  at  08:39 AM

Mostly, it was just a terrible joke about posters on the internet not providing evidence to back up claims, but I certainly worded it very poorly.  As you may have guessed, I’m better at math than at language.

Comment #161: progrocker  on  10/06  at  10:03 AM

Ok, cool.  smile

Comment #162: oldfeminist  on  10/06  at  10:19 AM

I think that some women I am friends with have been so sexually pressured in relationships (i.e., guys will get the women to commit so that they can demand sex) that having a sexless date would be a way of them being reassured that their current partner does not feel entitled.  And there is nothing wrong with that.

Stop with the euphemisms.  This is rape.

There’s nothing wrong with a woman OR a man for wanting to delay sex for any reason, and that’s not what this post was about anyway.

I’m sure that some women do delay sex to try to avoid rapists, but sadly, this won’t be very effective.  Plenty of rapists are patient, and the longer they hold, the more entitled they feel when they finally do reach the sexual part of the relationship.

Comment #163: bananacat  on  10/06  at  10:30 AM

On a personal level, it doesn’t feel natural to me to see a guy’s wang right away. We’re both too nervous. It’s taken me at least 2 months to get to that point with any guy I’ve dated (amittedly, not many). It’s really exciting to work your way up to that, to continually up the ante every time you get together. When you do get there, it’s mind-blowing.

Comment #164: weenertron  on  10/06  at  11:05 AM

bananacat,

Is it?  If someone feels pressured but says yes?  Coercion yes, horrifying yes, but rape to say “because we are in an exclusive relationship, I think we should be having lots of sex?”  If she says yes, even though it isn’t a completely free choice, sure, he is a fucking asshole who has disrespected her humanity, but it ain’t illegal to be an asshole.

Considering the fact that many, many women suffer rape and sexual coercion, and may want a sorting mechanism to determine who feels entitled to sex and who doesn’t, because of past bad experiences, I think you are being very disrespectful of people who have suffered through that to suggest they are “delaying sex to try to avoid rapists” which “won’t be very effective” vs. trying to assert their own boundaries, which have been so severely breached before.

Comment #165: Ismone  on  10/06  at  11:39 AM

(i.e., guys will get the women to commit so that they can demand sex)

bananacat: Stop with the euphemisms.  This is rape.

Let’s not say that being raped is the same as being under mental pressure to have sex. It’s very trivializing. If a guy starts to “demand sex”, he is a jerk but not a rapist, and the woman can send him to hell and never see him again with zero sex she doesn’t want. Rapists don’t give such opportunity. Being under mental pressure to do X =/= being made to do X by force.

 

Comment #166: reader  on  10/06  at  12:55 PM

Yeah, because there’s no pressure when someone a foot taller than me, and a hundred pounds heavier, who, when I turned him down for sex on the third date, said, “I could just rape you.”

No pressure there to have the sex simply to avoid the violence that might come with rape.

But I’d been raped years before, and determined that I never would be again without a fight to the death. Even if it meant mine.

However, I first applied mental pressure back, “Maybe you could rape me. But if I were you, I wouldn’t fall asleep afterwards, because I have a kitchen full of knives. And I know where you live, and where you work.”

That threat from a 4’11” 100lb woman gave my would-be rapist pause. But I’m sure there are others who would consider it a challenge.

Not every woman would be willing to make it a fight to the death, might not want to risk her life or battering. In fact, women are generally advised to do whatever it takes to save their own lives.

Comment #167: judybrowni  on  10/06  at  02:46 PM

As best I could tell, What’s Your Number? was a movie about a woman who needed to grow up, and she did. Look at the credits, which had women’s magazine articles in them - Stalking Your Ex - Dos and Don’ts. The point was that Ally was taking those women’s magazine’s advice columns seriously! Otherwise, the plot device that required her to revisit all the men she had ever slept with was no less ridiculous and creaky than Chekov’s “They’re going to cut down the old cherry orchard!” so we all have to stay together in this old house and work out our relationships. No one gave a shit about the cherry orchard. It was just a plot device, like not screwing Mr. 21. Ally was still a child and adrift. She had spent her entire life trying to please her mother and, possibly as a result of this, everyone else. In the movie, she gets past her problems with her mother, her life and her uncertainty about what she wants from life. It was actually nice to see a character driven movie about growing up like this.

And it was funny, which is more than we could say for Bridesmaids.

Comment #168: Kaleberg  on  10/06  at  09:50 PM

@173

Thanks for mansplaining away the sexism, but the thing is, the fact that Mr. 21 is a MacGuffin doesn’t change the fact that such a premise is assumed to be comprehensible to the audience, which indicates no small amount of fucked up attitudes about sex resident in the culture that would produce such a movie.

Comment #169: Triplanetary  on  10/06  at  11:04 PM

@ 173 - also, you found it funny, which is more than you could say about Bridesmaids.  I have not seen either, and likely wont.  The premise of What’s Your Number is totally fucked up from the get go and had already been discussed at my house due to the WTF reaction we all had from the TV commercial (M & F, mid-40s; F & M, mid-20s).

Comment #170: helen w. h.  on  10/07  at  09:41 AM
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