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Next entry: Bare naked TSA travel, part two Previous entry: Straight talk - McCain this and that

Romance is about sex?

Sex

Wow, people really suck.  Look, I can understand why people can rationalize their antsiness about their teenage children’s sexuality, even as they know full well that they were having those feelings and screwing around at that age and managed to survive intact.  You’re never going to be young again, so you’re not putting your own interests in jeopardy by resenting and trying to control the sexuality of teenagers.  But resenting and trying to control the sexuality of the elderly seems self-defeating to me, because, Disco Ball willing, you’re going to be an old person one day with a lot of time on your hands, and having Teh Sex might be a fun way to pass that time.  I know I hope to be randy into my twilight years. 

But apparently, my entirely rational position on this is lost on a whole lot of people, who think it’s perfectly acceptable to interfere with the sex lives of elderly people living in nursing homes.  The story in this case is about “Bob,” 95, and “Dorothy,” 82, both widowed and living in this nursing home.  Both have dementia.  They started a love affair, and at first, everyone thought it was cute how they were dressing up to see each other, and getting excited and lively in each others’ presence. All cute, right, until we remind ourselves that outside of fairy tales and what the counselors chaperoning the Christian summer camp dances would like to believe, romance is that heady combination of Teh Sex and Teh Love.  And the former makes people all sorts of upset and controlling.

Naturally, the dating couple did what dating couples do, and got it on.  It seems the nursing home, realizing that it was making both patients healthier and happier, tolerated it as long as it was during the daytime, and not at night when the night nurse needed everyone in their own beds.  In fact, they did more than tolerate it; their reaction was a lot like mine—-it gave them hope about their own demented old age.

Downstairs, in her bright, tidy office, I met the woman who runs the facility—one of the nicest I’ve seen, with tea service in the lobby and white tablecloths in a dining room that’s dressed up like a restaurant. In 30 years of taking care of the elderly, she’s seen plenty of couples, but none as “inspiring” or heartbreaking as Dorothy and Bob. Which is why she keeps a photo of the two of them on her desk.

Bob’s son was the one who put a stop to it, and his controlling nature and sex phobia are all over this story.  He didn’t want his dad getting laid.  He openly said that old people should sit in a chair and rock.  He was grossed out, and he thought that justified being an asshole about it.

And his sputtering cell phone call reporting the scene he’d happened upon would have been funny, the manager said, if the consequences hadn’t been so serious. “He was going, ‘She had her mouth on my dad’s penis! And it’s not even clean!’ “

He eventually moved his dad to another home to put a stop to it, which nearly killed Dorothy, who ended up only recovering because her poor memory lightened her grief a lot faster just because she couldn’t quite remember how much happier she was in love. 

This story fascinates me, because it’s like all of what makes Americans fucked up about sex rolled into one package.  There’s the idea that feeling something is gross somehow equals a moral argument, which is of course the main argument that homophobes have against homosexuality, and which makes no sense in practice.  Most of us, thoroughly worked over mentally by our sex-saturated culture, don’t want to think about anyone having sex outside of ourselves and those young and thin enough to populate porn, which means that if you’re over 25, you’re out by the gross=immoral standard.  But there’s also the weird way that our prudish culture has created a disconnect between romance and sex.  Like this example:

The private-duty nurse who had been tending Bob also had strong feelings about the matter, said the manager: “At first, she thought it was cute they were together, but when it became sexual, she lost her senses” for religious reasons and asked staff members to help keep the two of them apart.

Yeah, the crazy Christians are in love with romance and are paranoid with sex, and the result is that they try to convince themselves that the two are separable, even though romance is basically the word we have for sexual love.  Sexual love is so wonderful without the sex, or else it’s creepy. That makes a lot of sense, yeah. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:05 PM • (44) Comments

A sad, sick story.  They broke up a happy couple who were making each other’s last years a joy rather than a lonely, empty time.  Granted, I’d have to scrub both my eyeballs and my brain if I’d walked in on that scene with my elderly parents but I think I’d have the sense to get over myself and remember to knock the next time I visited.  The son should be ashamed of himself for selfishly denying his father a happy, fulfilling relationship and the nursing staff needs to butt the hell out as long as a relationship is safe and consensual.  If only more elderly and demented patients in nursing homes had a companion in their final years.  So many of us will end up alone and lonely.

Comment #1: BadKitty  on  06/13  at  08:50 PM

My last remaining grandmother had a boyfriend at her retirement home a few years ago—sadly, he died a couple of years later, but they were happy during the time they had together.  It was a really cute story:  they had gone to grade school together and only met up again in the retirement home.  I don’t think my parents even considered trying to break them up—what, like the guy was going to inherit her vast Social Security pension and live it up?

They do desperately need STI education in retirement homes and communities because a lot of people think that anything goes since no one can get pregnant, so some places are having trouble with herpes or even (rarely) HIV infections.  If people are willing to be safe, then what’s the problem?

And, yes, it would TOTALLY gross me out if I saw either of my parents doin’ it, but it’s not really my business, is it?

Comment #2: Mnemosyne  on  06/13  at  08:56 PM

Not to mention that this is going to become even more of an issue as gay and lesbian couples get older.  If you have caretakers getting all moralistic over straight couples having sex, imagine how much worse it would be if they had been a gay couple.

Comment #3: Mnemosyne  on  06/13  at  08:58 PM

Dementia takes away the past, and mortality takes away the future, which leaves you with only the present.  And I really like the idea that they’d be living in the moment, and enjoying each other, without any complications from past- and future-directed thoughts.

Comment #4: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  06/13  at  09:00 PM

This is so damn sad. 

I’m very heartened by all the couples in nursing homes.  Who wouldn’t be?  Does Bob’s son see himself happily rocking in a chair for the last 10 years of his life?  This all reminds me of my husband’s very fundamentalist grandmother, who called her son to complain that her new assisted living arrangements amounted to a “brothel.”  Because, you see, residents were DATING.  Of course, this is the same woman who, when asked if there were ever any gay folk in the family’s previous generations, literally drew up in disgust and responded, “We didn’t have those things back then!”  Perhaps that speaks to the fantasyland attitude of the people who think the need for intimacy dies when AARP start showing up in the mail.

Comment #5: furious_george  on  06/13  at  09:14 PM

All the more reason I need to ensure my daughter is completely enlightened, relaxed and cool about sex- damned if I want her interfering in Mom’s late life fun!!! Or Dad’s, if that’s the case…

I’m reminded of a story in our family… My grandfather, in his 20’s and newly married, asked HIS grandmother one day why on Earth she got married at age 70.

She snapped back at him, “Same reason as you, Carl- SEX!!”

Comment #6: louise  on  06/13  at  09:29 PM

Mnemosyne, I support educating people about sexually transmitted diseases, but am not sure whom you want educated: people institutionalized because of age-related dementia probably don’t desperately need information about prevention.  STDs afflict even very alert elderly people in part because condoms can be tough to use for those who came of age when they were disreputable and aren’t slipping them over a rigid erection.  Add dementia to the mix and I think prevention by education becomes impossible.  (If you’re talking about educating health care providers to recognize symptoms and not assume an STD couldn’t be a cause, then I agree 100%.)

Comment #7: Unree  on  06/13  at  09:29 PM

The nursing home racket (where the nursing home lobby gets medicare dollars to go to nursing homes rather than to follow the patient in their choice of living arrangement) is alive and well. Anyone who follows disability rights issues knows that this is Numero Uno in priority. There is no freedom in nursing homes. You don’t choose your meals, your roommate, your schedule, or obviously, your sex life. Sad as this is for seniors, there are many disabled people who live their whole lives, lives that start out young and vital, in this false imprisonment. And they are inmates and it is prison. Make no mistake about that.

Until Medicare/medicaid dollars are directed towards the citizen rather than profit-loving nursing home corporations and insurance companies, thus allowing people freedom to have the support and care they need in the setting and lifestyle they choose, restrictions on sex is just the tip of the iceberg. (Oh, and by the way, if you are unfamiliar with this issue, it costs the government FAR MORE to house inmates in a nursing home than it does to provide in home care, and at lower quality. You’d think they all want us to die quickly or something. Hmmm.)

Comment #8: Leora  on  06/13  at  09:34 PM

Leora, Medicare is fucked up enough without you adding false claims to the list.  Original Medicare doesn’t pay for long-term care, which living permanently in a nursing home would fall under.  Many people on Medicare have separate policies or insurance plans that help pay for long-term care.  But most people in nursing homes have spent all their savings and are getting their care paid for by Medicaid.

Comment #9: Eli  on  06/13  at  10:11 PM

I generally agree with the points you make here, Amanda, and I think the son in this case is a grade A prick. But having said that, I do think the fact that they both suffered from dementia brings up questions of informed consent that people seem to be ignoring in their rush to validate the idea that seniors should be able to form sexual relationships.

Comment #10: David  on  06/13  at  10:27 PM

Leora-

There are certianly lots of cases of abuse and neglect in nursing homes.  A lot of them are very overly restrictive.  The idea itself, however, isn’t an entirely bad one.  My grandmother started a nursing home business in the 1950’s, first taking a few patients into her home from doctor referrals (she was a nurse, looking for extra income after her husband left her and her three kids).  There wasn’t much of a nursing home industry in those days, especially not in the rural midwest, where she was at the time.  The stories of horrible elder abuse people suffered at that time always make me blanch when Grandma talks about it.  For the most part, elderly people were just left to die on their own if families didn’t step in and take care of them. People who had progressed into dementia were often shipped off to sanitariums (some of the scariest stories were about the big state-run facility in her area she would pick up patients from).  People who were born mentally disabled lived their entire lives like this.  (Women who were raped were often set to live in these sanatariums too, but that’s a story for another time).  A lot of the people who could afford old-age care moved into homes sponsored by fraternal organizations they belonged to (think Masons, Oddfellows, etc.), bot those places would kick someone out if their health deteriorated too much.  In short, there weren’t a lot of choices for people who needed round-the-clock, skilled care, and the ones who suffered were the old people least able to help themselves.

Today, at least there are options, thanks in large part to people like my grandma.  When she retired in the early 1980’s and sold her business, she had the largest privately-owned nursing home chain in the state.  She worked like a dog, and provided the best care possible for her “folks”, including home cooked meals (that she often made herself, and Grandma’s food can’t be beat), entertainment programs, and personalized care that made knowing the people a priority. 

Home nursing care can be a great boon for people who are still able to live in their own homes, but there is, and always will be, a percentage of the population who need to be in a residential facility.  Taking care of someone who needs around-the-clock skilled care is very difficult, stressful, and usually falls on women’s shoulders.  Simply put, it isn’t the best fit for every situation- not for the patient, and not for the caregiver.

No, not everyone runs as tight a ship as Grandma did, and a lot of the souless corporations who have bought out nursing homes over the last 20-30 years are just that-souless.  I think as a country with an aging population, we need to figure out how to make these companies more accountable, not discard the concept of nursing homes all together.  We’ve been down that road before, and it wasn’t a good one.

Comment #11: Neko Onna  on  06/13  at  10:27 PM

Oh this story does make me so sad! My granny is 94 (living on her own still healthy), and has been a widow for almost 30 years now. She’s so lonely for someone her own age- I can’t imagine separating her from someone who could add that kind of joy to her life.

That being said, I do think it would scar me to walk in on her going down on someone, but at least she’d be getting her kicks!

Comment #12: Heather  on  06/13  at  10:33 PM

Well, I’m not sure what false claims I am including here. I’m limited here on how many links I can place, but you can start with ADAPT.org (http://www.adapt.org/). Also, google “MiCASSA”, “Nursing Home Bias” and I believe the AARP has an official statement in regards to this. What is false about my claim?

Neko Onna, the issue here is about choice. Sure, if someone has an abusive family that will not care for them, a nursing home may be the least evil option. But if same person could have the choice of going into adult foster care, a smaller group home (perhaps like your grandmother’s) or some other natural supports arrangement, shouldn’t they have that choice? Especially when often times it is cheaper and of better quality and allows for more personal freedoms than your traditional nursing home? Also, there are disabled people (and I include the elderly here) that are not even given the choice of which nursing home. If they are not profit-bearing patients, they may get sent to one hundreds of miles from their home and friends and family. The issue isn’t that every single person in a nursing home is being abused, the issue is that many, many people are being held in nursing homes against their will and without their consent.

Comment #13: Leora  on  06/13  at  10:39 PM

(If you’re talking about educating health care providers to recognize symptoms and not assume an STD couldn’t be a cause, then I agree 100%.)

I was talking about that but also backtracking to elderly people who are not demented but don’t realize that they can be at risk for STIs because in many cases they weren’t a big issue (or weren’t discussed) when they were last single and with a new partner.

I was talking about the elderly in general, not just ones who are mentally impaired.

Comment #14: Mnemosyne  on  06/13  at  10:52 PM

But having said that, I do think the fact that they both suffered from dementia brings up questions of informed consent that people seem to be ignoring in their rush to validate the idea that seniors should be able to form sexual relationships.

Is the issue that you think their caregivers were reading the signals wrong and that one or both of them were not actually consenting?  Or are you thinking that because they’re mentally impaired it’s impossible for them to give consent?

I think people can meaningfully consent to sex with people at the same or similar level of impairment, even when both people are impaired.  The worry with consent is that someone is being exploited and/or used by someone with more power, and I don’t see that in this particular case.  I also wouldn’t say that two developmentally disabled people in their 20s should automatically be prevented from having sex with each other strictly because of a theoretical consent issue when all other signs are that both parties are consenting with each other, so it’s not just their age.

If one of the people in this story was a hospital employee, then you’d absolutely have a consent issue no matter how happy everyone was, because that’s a position of power.  One of your peers?  Not the same thing.

Comment #15: Mnemosyne  on  06/13  at  10:58 PM

Sure Bob and Dorothy have dementia -  but I wouldn’t say they’re the ones who are demented . . .

Comment #16: Dan S.  on  06/13  at  11:02 PM

A lot of elders, like my MIL, don’t want their children and grandchildren “saddled” with their care Leora, and have made it clear that they will opt for an institutional setting should they require one. 

We have to think hard about elder care as a feminist issue, as women are disproportionately drafted into the work of caring for elders - often on top of caring for children and holding down jobs.  Family care is not always appropriate, even absent abusive situations.

Comment #17: Ms Kate  on  06/13  at  11:08 PM

They should have expressed their love by playing cribbage.

Comment #18: Margalis  on  06/13  at  11:13 PM

Ms. Kate

If funding were provided for personal care attendants to go into the homes of your elders and provide care, how is it that you are saddled with their care? Or is this just an out of sight out of mind purely ablist issue for you?

I agree with you about caregiving being a feminist issue, but that issue circumvents the setting in which people are receiving care. CNAs and PCAs that provide care in home or in institutional settings are largely female and underpaid with limited benefits, while majority of supervisors and nursing home conglomerates are males who make a nice salary. Caregiving sucks for women all around. Grandma going into a nursing home doesn’t a feminist statement make.

Comment #19: Leora  on  06/13  at  11:41 PM

I’d love to be a fly (cherub?) on the wall when Bob’s son dies and enters the afterlife . . . it would be very sweet to see him met by his father with a punch to the face and an expressed wish that he’d used just one more condom in his lifetime.

Comment #20: Kyra  on  06/14  at  12:12 AM

This story is so, so sad, and the first thing I thought of was Sandra Day O’Connor, who visits her husband and his girlfriend at the nursing home.  He has Alzheimer’s and has formed this new attachment, and she welcomes it because it makes him happy.  Now that’s a wonderful woman.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-11-12-court_N.htm

Comment #21: Ruth  on  06/14  at  12:51 AM

Neko Onna, the issue here is about choice. Sure, if someone has an abusive family that will not care for them, a nursing home may be the least evil option. But if same person could have the choice of going into adult foster care, a smaller group home (perhaps like your grandmother’s) or some other natural supports arrangement, shouldn’t they have that choice?

I don’t think that choice is non- existant now.  All of those things exist. They can be good choices, too, but not in every circumstance.  A home health nurse or a group home often isn’t capable of meeting the needs of patients who are very ill, or non-ambulatory, or suffering from advanced dementia.  That’s where nursing facilities come in.  Are some people sent to nursing homes when they shouldn’t be?  Yes.  Are some people kept in these other situations past the time when they relly need skilled residential care?  Yes.  It’s hard sometimes to know what to do. Consent can also be tricky, especially when you have issues like dementia complicating the issue.  Should dementia keep two people from being able to engage in sex?  I don’t think so, and apparently, the facility the people in this article were in didn’t have a problem with that, either.  Should dementia keep someone for opting to live on their own?  Quite possibly.  I think the legal system is going to have to change to reflect the nuances of geriactric psychiatry, in order to try to balance the wishes of the patient and the wishes of caregivers/ society at large.  Both sides have legitimate stakes here.

Sure, if someone has an abusive family that will not care for them, a nursing home may be the least evil option.

I don’t think nursing homes are necessarily an “evil option”.  I think there are some bad situations in some nursing homes.  I think we need to do better as a society in regulating what goes on.  But evil on face?  Hardly.  Sometimes it is the best, kindest option to be in a nursing home, period.

Comment #22: Neko Onna  on  06/14  at  01:04 AM

Eeek.  Good point, Mnemosyne.

I read this story before too and it made me sad, too.  :(

Comment #23: Lisa KS  on  06/14  at  01:45 AM

My grandparents were in a Masonic retirement community, and it was fantastic for them. And it really is a community. A bunch of people their own age to hang around with, lots and lots of activities, a large park for recreation, regular shuttle service to town for shopping, restaurant-style dining with variable meal plans, and emergency medical care at the touch of a button. There’s even hair stylist, chapel, and small store. Plus, there are differing living arrangements. So when they were mid-80s they lived in a duplex pretty much on their own. When they got to be older they moved to an apartment, and eventually to assisted living. It’s a good place to be if you’re old.

Comment #24: Entomologista  on  06/14  at  02:12 AM

I’m living with my 83yo mother, who still has the occasional gentleman caller. I would be thrilled to have one of them take her off my hands even if only for one night. My father died 21 years ago, and I’m fairly certain that she hadn’t been fucked for years before that.

She had four kids, she enjoys most varieties of sexual humor, and there’s just a shred of a hint of a chance that she might once have done something with her campaign manager, but it’s most likely that she’ll never fuck again.

On the upside, she did buy a new hat today, and her doing so always reminds me of a line from Tom Lehrer’s Oedipus Rex:

So be sweet and kind to Mother, now and then have a chat,
Buy her flowers and some candy or a brand new hat
But maybe you had better let it go at that!

Comment #25: bad Jim  on  06/14  at  02:35 AM

leora, i agree with all youve said. if people have gone through what i &i;assume you have & choose to pretend things are fine, then they are in denial & in it willingly because it benefits themselves & is not the best for the person who they dumped in the home.
and in that light, i also saw this comment made buy the son, “‘She had her mouth on my dad’s penis! And it’s not even clean!’ ”, in a different way—namely that the nursing home & it’s minimum wage caregivers are supposed to keep your loved ones clean, but they routinely fall down on the job, to say the veryleast. my dad’s home—the one we HAD to put him in because he needed homecare & a caregiver salary would have been just out of his meager range plus anything that we as his kids would have supplimented on our meager salaries—skipped his showers routinely & there was also a high probability that he would be made to sit in his soiled—with #1 AND #2—diapers for hours. And we were told repeatedly by children of parents in there , that we should visit frequently & at different times of the day, to be on them all the time. We were, & it STILL ddnt get us anywhere much—because they arent beholden to anyone. You can file complaints all you want, for cleanliness, care, nutrition, lack of services, malignant medicating, injury,  but unless your parent dies or is horribly injured (not just the bruises & broken bones most of them suffer) no one gives a fuck if they have a hellish life in one of those joints.
AND YES, they DO want you to die & give up a bed to another sucker—the average spanof life in those hellholes is TWO YEARS. My healthy & active dad, aman they restricted to a wheelchair even though he was strong enough to walk (they dont want their residents to walk, as they are harder to control), no matter how hard we fought for his care to be better, went downhill fast fromt his kind of neglect; I wouldnt want to watch what happened to him, happen to a dog let alone a person, but we were powerless. i ruined my health & what money i had in those two years, after taking care of him in my home for the last 10. It was hell on earth to experience someone you love -someone who had a life full of dignity & decency—be destroyed like this.  And the topper? When my dad finally had a little stroke, they didnt care about reovery ,in fact they gave conflicting stories about their care then covered their asses on it. they did everything to convince us that he weas a goner & should be left to die, even when he was displaying behavior to the contrary. I walked in on the head nurse—who had lied to me in front of a second doctor!- & the first doctor frantically getting their stories in sync. I wish to this moment that i had had the resources & wherewithall to sue them into oblivion. But people care so little about old people that i hould probably be lucky that he didnt burn to death, liike two people’s parents i know.  And i JUST found out that this nursing home, part of a chain at least in this region, was voted HIGHEST in the state.

Comment #26: blarrrgh  on  06/14  at  03:40 AM

i should also say that if you dont have money, they threaten you by telling you that they will turn your dad out & then he will have to go to an even MORE substandard nursing home that takes Caid. so youre fucked if you make too many waves (although we did; we had no choice. we loved our dad).

Comment #27: blarrrgh  on  06/14  at  03:48 AM

Yeesh, what a prick is Bob’s son.

On the tangent, elder care is a feminist issue.  I wonder if the substandard care is partly a result of patriarchy.  Those who do the caretaking are woefully underpaid and overworked.  But then, they’re doing “women’s work,” which usually is underpaid.  And with staff overworked and underpaid, it’s pretty much a given that nursing home residents will get substandard care, even in the best facilities.  But then, women are “supposed” to be the caretakers, and those who put their relatives are obviously failing their duties as women.

Oh, yet another thing to save up for.  If I’m lucky,  my parents will have 20 years before they’ll require any sort of around-the-clock care.  Or, they could be hit by a semi tomorrow.  Perhaps their wishes regarding their future care is something that we should discuss before they’re suffering from dementia.  /rambling ended

Comment #28: Karinna A.  on  06/14  at  04:15 AM

I also saw that story, Ruth- how very sad for Sandra and how incredibly loving and gracious a person she is. My respect for her went even higher after viewing it.

Comment #29: louise  on  06/14  at  09:05 AM

Very sad story - but here is a situation where the institution was behaving in a far more enlightened manner than the children.  And a group institutional setting is frequently a better option than staying at home, for the elderly person herself - I speak from recent experience of doing everything I could to help my mother stay in her own home, a nice one-floor townhouse she had moved into to be in my town.  Her health deteriorated, broken hip, etc., but more importantly, she was refusing to eat much, was depressed, and wouldn’t leave her house to see anyone.  She had friends in her little development, which has almost all people older than 60 there, but she just didn’t feel like engaging.  So my brother and I convinced her that she needed more care than I could provide (I was literally on the edge of a breakdown myself), and we moved her to an assisted living facility near him, as he’s a doctor and can monitor her health better than I can.  I was worried that she would reject living in a small apartment in a pretty big building - but she LOVES it!  She is thriving, making friends, engaging in activities, eating the meals provided, and while her health is still not great, the nursing staff on call 24 hours is giving her great care.  Now, none of this is cheap, and we’re lucky my parents were extremely thrifty, and that my father, although never highly paid and essentially working class, worked for a big company that provided a good pension for him and now for my mom, and that Social Security fills in the gap.  But my point is a group community setting can be a very positive thing for older people - when my mom told me they brought her soup and a sandwich when she forgot to go down for lunch, I was ready to move in there myself.  Isolation can be a very important problem for elderly people - in my mom’s case, this assisted living facility has been the best possible solution to that as well as her other issues.

This story, and the mention above of this problem for gay and lesbian aging couples, reminds me of the very sad scene in the movie The Sum of Us, when the grandmother of the main gay character is torn away from her long time lesbian lover because the children of each of them thought they needed to be in nursing homes.  Also of the movie last year Away From Her, in which Julie Christie played the Alzheimer’s patient who developed a love relationship with another patient, forgetting her husband who came to see her every week.  Very sad and so unnecessary to tear people apart to satisfy one’s own repression.

Comment #30: geordie  on  06/14  at  10:29 AM

I do think the fact that they both suffered from dementia brings up questions of informed consent that people seem to be ignoring in their rush to validate the idea that seniors should be able to form sexual relationships.

Issues of informed consent usually involve people in different power levels in society.  Which is why I think that an adult having sex with a child should be illegal, but two children having sex with each other shouldn’t get in legal trouble.  Maybe with their parents, depending on how young they are.  But demented adults are still adults and for their sake and everyone else’s, allowing them as much dignity (including sexual autonomy and privacy) as possible should be the goal.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  11:02 AM

BTW, I love that Sandra Day O’Connor is now in an open marriage for all intents and purposes, but no one seems to perceive it that way.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  02:54 PM

“I do think the fact that they both suffered from dementia brings up questions of informed consent that people seem to be ignoring in their rush to validate the idea that seniors should be able to form sexual relationships.”

That they both suffer from dementia, rather than one or the other suffering from it and the other being in full possession of their mental faculties, goes a long way toward putting those questions back down.  Not to mention that dementia usually erodes social inhibitions pretty quickly, so you’re probably less likely to have a senior with dementia quietly acquiesce to something s/he doesn’t really want to do than a senior without dementia.

Comment #33: preying mantis  on  06/14  at  04:25 PM

What’s the old joke, 75% of couples over the age of 60 are having sex, and 100% of their kids and grandkids don’t want to think about it!

Seriously, this is a sad story.  I hope the freaked-out son does spend the last years of his life with only his hand for company.

Comment #34: Woodrowfan  on  06/14  at  04:43 PM

I absolutely hate the “Ewww, old people having sex!!1!” attitude. I come from a culture (Cajun) where the elderly are actually valued and seen as human beings, and it’s still shocking to me how callously most of the rest of the country treats them.

I got into a blog war over this very thing a few months ago, when there was a study about the sex lives of the elderly released, and everyone was blogging about it; you’d see comments like “*throws up in mouth*” and equally scintillating remarks. I basically told someone they were being ageist and immature, and was told in defense “I am not being ageist, I just don’t like to think of ANYONE besides me having sex, and neither do most people!!” Right, so the porn industry is supported entirely by a handful of billionare deviants with a LOT of free time, and you’d say the same thing about a study on the sex lives of barely-legal Swedish beach volleyball players? Give me a fucking break.

Comment #35: june  on  06/14  at  06:08 PM

I absolutely hate the “Ewww, old people having sex!!1!” attitude. I come from a culture (Cajun) where the elderly are actually valued and seen as human beings, and it’s still shocking to me how callously most of the rest of the country treats them.

im not cajun but i agree. i was never raised with this attitude & find it really offensive & abusivewhen i hear the hate in people’s voices when this comes up. no one wants to age & then die, but give me a break. americans are so effing adolescent & ignorant.

Comment #36: b  on  06/14  at  09:27 PM

I do think the fact that they both suffered from dementia brings up questions of informed consent that people seem to be ignoring in their rush to validate the idea that seniors should be able to form sexual relationships.

In addition to what others have said about power imbalances, dementia doesn’t necessarily mean an inability to reason. In this case, it seems like both of the patients mostly just had memory loss, which is far less of a concern than, say, general impairment or retardation.

Comment #37: Jeffrey  on  06/14  at  09:40 PM

I kind of wish my grandma would find a guy she likes in her assisted living facility.

Comment #38: Samantha Vimes  on  06/15  at  06:24 AM

June hit the nail on the head. I always call ahead to my parents before I drop in on the weekends, and when my last boyfriend asked why, I said (calm as day), “Because they might be having sex.” He was horrified that I was able to think about / articulate the possibility without retching. What? They have sex. Does everyone think that their parents stop doing it after they pop out the last kid?

Comment #39: Faye  on  06/15  at  10:55 AM

In addition to what others have said about power imbalances, dementia doesn’t necessarily mean an inability to reason. In this case, it seems like both of the patients mostly just had memory loss, which is far less of a concern than, say, general impairment or retardation.

I don’t know much about dementia, so I’ll take your word for it. I understood dementia as an inability to reason, which makes me wonder if they’re able to truly give consent. But if I’m wrong about that, then I withdraw the point.

Comment #40: David  on  06/15  at  01:21 PM

Not to mention that dementia usually erodes social inhibitions pretty quickly, so you’re probably less likely to have a senior with dementia quietly acquiesce to something s/he doesn’t really want to do than a senior without dementia.

Er, I don’t see how that follows. Loss of social inhibitions makes people more able to be pressured into doing things they don’t want, not less.

Otherwise how could drugs and alcohol be used to rape? Like David I’m very confused about the issues of informed consent, here. (Yeah, yeah, I can see the ad hominems now. I said here. Not “everywhere.”) And I don’t see how “they both had dementia” is enough to simply hand-wave the concerns away. Without looking at their medical records you can’t know that they had comparable degrees of dementia. That alone could introduce an exploitative power imbalance.

Were it my mother or father, certainly I would recognize the need for companionship and sex; but knowing about their diminished judgment, and seeing myself as someone with a responsibility to look out for their best interest, I don’t think I could throw up my hands and say “God bless” and turn my back. I’d have to be a part of a conversation with the two of them to see if this was really a normal relationship or some kind of exploitation. And I’d be upset if the staff had not kept me abreast of the situation.

They’re not just adults, after all; they’re adults with a progressing condition that diminishes judgment. That means that someone has to exercise some on their behalf. That said the son was totally an asshole here, and it’s obvious that his decision arose from sex phobia, not the best interests of his parent.

Comment #41: Chet  on  06/16  at  12:17 AM

This news story reminded me of my grandfather’s last Christmas, when I was one of only two family members who got him a present. I got him a bottle of “Jack-In-The-Black.” He shouted, “Merry Christmas! HAP-py New Year,” when he saw what it was, then (old moonshiner that he was) knocked two slugs back like it was water! Fortunately for him, my father had warned me that he & I would have to conspire to keep the bottle hidden for however long it took Granddaddy to finish it. He explained that not only would the nursing home staff take it, so would Granddaddy’s own second-oldest child, my uncle the in-your-face Christian—for Granddaddy’s own good, of course. We did conceal it successfully until there was barely a swallow, at which time Uncle did, in fact, find it. At least the nursing home staff would have had the decency to drink it if they swiped it, as opposed to pouring it out.

“Puritanism is the horrible, sneaking suspicion that somewhere, somehow, someone…may be having a good time!”

That said, I agree that the informed consent issue is a tough one. Hmm…maybe we need something like a Living Will or Do Not Resuscitate type of document? Something the future nursing home resident can complete while still demonstrably of sound mind, setting down whys, wherefores, circumstances, etc., under which they do and do not wish some oversight of their future choice(s) of sexual/romantic activity? I have no idea how it would work, don’t even really know where I’m going w/ this idea, but it seems like a starting place.

Comment #42: Alpha  on  06/16  at  04:39 AM

“Er, I don’t see how that follows. Loss of social inhibitions makes people more able to be pressured into doing things they don’t want, not less.”

Tangential point: Very few drugs work in the same way as alcohol does re: inhibitions and fear of judgment.  Someone who’s been dosed with flunitrazepam is not just more “subject to pressure.” 

Main point: I think you’re not really getting the full picture of what I mean when I say social inhibitions.  Not getting out on the dance floor and doing the hokey pokey in front of our peers and ten video cameras even if we really kind of want to because we’re too embarrassed is the very tip of that ice berg.

We have a huge number of fleeting, minor, anti-social impulses in any given day.  It takes a fair amount of oft-unacknowledged mental energy and acuity to suppress them.  Same thing with low-grade politeness.  Not treating the cashier or teller or whoever like a very convincing robot or an ambulatory piece of furniture takes a little bit of effort.  A healthy, well-adjusted person usually doesn’t even notice that this is going on.  We say “please” and “thank you” and “excuse me” without thinking about it.  We think “Asshole!” to ourselves instead of shouting it at people when confronted with minor instances of daily-life assholery.  We pretend to pay attention in boring meetings or social gatherings instead of blatantly ignoring everybody.  We try not to over-share with strangers or acquaintances.  When we’re a bit frustrated, we don’t snarl at coworkers who have nothing to do with it.  We don’t swear at the nurse at a doctor’s office or blood bank for sticking us with a needle, even though it hurts.  We try not to stare as if hypnotized at strangers we find attractive. 

We spend a lot of time unconsciously talking ourselves out of or keeping ourselves from engaging in what could be described generally as misbehavior.  You may remember a post on this site a while ago about how often women say “yes” automatically to petty favors, even though they don’t want to—it’s that social conditioning at play there.  Once that starts to break down, unless you’re dealing with the second-coming of Jesus, you get less in the way of “I don’t really want to but I guess we could if you really want to” and more in the way of “Leave me alone, you fucking douchebag.” Very few of us tend to be people-pleasers to the core.

Comment #43: preying mantis  on  06/16  at  08:26 PM

Someone who’s been dosed with flunitrazepam is not just more “subject to pressure.”

So what are they?

I apologize but I don’t see where you’ve addressed my point. You’ve presented a novel theory of personality, but it doesn’t jive with my experience nor, I suspect, with anybody else’s.

You may remember a post on this site a while ago about how often women say “yes” automatically to petty favors, even though they don’t want to—it’s that social conditioning at play there.

And I suspect that, between the impulse to do what one is told, and the impulse to tell the asker to go fuck themselves, you’ve completely misapprehended which is the deeper impulse and which is the more likely to be attenuated in the presence of certain drugs.

Comment #44: Chet  on  06/17  at  04:02 AM
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