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Ron Paul prefers hurricanes to wipe out thousands instead of measley dozens

I hate giving attention to Ron Paul, who is a familiar type in Texas: equal parts racist old crank that obsesses over conspiracy theories that have their historical roots in anti-Semiticism and vicious misogynist who thinks women's sexual liberation is the worst thing that's ever happened in history.  Unfortunately, Paul has managed to snag the affections of a collection of white men who imagine themselves to be "liberal", because they hear he supports legalizing marijuana, though they hide behind his opposition to the war because even they know that it's fucking disgusting to believe it's more important for dudes to have legal rights to joints than women to have legal rights to abortion.  Paulbots are literally the most annoying people on Earth, because there is literally nothing their hero can do that they won't vociferously defend, sometimes even while claiming not to support his point of view.  After all, they aren't prepared yet to follow their hero's prescribed lifestyle of marrying a church lady and giving up on the hope of interesting sex for the rest of their lives, but they know that keeping their already dim hopes of sex with live, consenting women alive means at least pretending like they are also repulsed by statements like, "order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks," and "the federal-homosexual cover-up on AIDS".  Being Paulbots, they actually claim that these prior statements by Paul are fine, because they claim to believe his transparent lie that someone else wrote them for a newsletter and he just happened to sign his name to them without knowing what was in them.  This, even though in many of the offensive statements, he took great pains to make it clear that he was the one writing them.  For instance, in the rant about the "federal-homosexual cover-up on AIDS", Paul wrote, "my training as a physician helps me see through this one."  But Paulbots are so dedicated to seeing this Bible-thumping, racist, misogynist piece of shit as their hero that they'll claim with straight faces that somehow all those first person statements in newsletters Ron Paul signed his name to were not written by him.  The man could eat a live kitten on TV, and while it was still squeaking in pain and terror as life seeped out of it and its blood ran down his face, they would say, "CNN is only telling you that's a kitten because they're part of the oligarchy, dude," before taking another puff on the joint. 

So I wasn't surprised to have angry Paulbots defend their hero on Twitter when I posted a link to Ron Paul suggesting that the Galveston hurricane of 1900 was the gold standard in how our country should respond to hurricanes, and that we shouldn't have FEMA coordinating rescue efforts that would prevent horrors like that hurricane, which killed three times as many people as the attacks on 9/11.  (Galveston is in his district, too, so Paul isn't fucking around when he idealizes the drowning deaths of thousands of people.)  Paul helpfully added that drowned bodies are good for our national character, adding, "FEMA creates many of our problems because they sell the insurance because you can't buy it from a private company, which means there's a lot of danger, so we pay people to build on beaches, and then we have to go and rescue them."  Angry Paulbots responded to my disapproval of this by sending things like old articles praising Galveston for being able to recover from a hurricane completely destroying their town.  Of course, this was nonsensical, because as admirable as the rebuilding efforts may have been, they had nothing to do with the point at hand, which is that it's important to have a federal agency to organize and run efforts to prevent people from drowning in the first place.  One Paulbot actually had the nerve to cite Hurricane Katrina as a reason we don't need FEMA.  When I pointed out that FEMA was being run in 2005 exactly as Paul wants---which is to say, not at all---the Paulbot had no response.  

In a sense, Ron Paul is just a sideshow, and his hateful desire to have people drown as some sort of lesson to people who might live on the coast (as if they do that for the hell of it and not because that's where their jobs are, or as if there's really huge parts of the country where there are never any natural dangers---by the way, Paul is breaking his own moral code by living in D.C.) is just another nasty thing he said to appeal to cranks who just enjoy being assholes, no matter how "progressive" they claim to be. But it's also important to pay attention to these narratives, because a lot of them are tried out by fringe sorts like Paul and then mainstreamed in right wing channels.  One of the biggest problems is that when things go right, as they largely did with the response to Irene, the minimal damage perversely gets people to believe that we don't need massive response efforts.  "That wasn't so bad," people think, "so I don't know why we need building codes, infrastructure spending, and coordinated government responses to natural disasters."  You know, even though these are the reasons that it wasn't so bad.  It's a lot like someone who eats right and exercises their whole life, and when they don't develop heart disease, saying, "Man, I guess I wasted all that effort."  

Paul's function in the conservative movement is to pull it to the right.  He comes out and says something outlandish like claiming that we don't need FEMA or that desegregation actually worsened race relations (the insinuation being that white people can only deal with black people if they have formal legal superiority  over them), and that helps make crazy wingnuttery that falls just short that sound more moderate. He runs out and denounces efforts to keep people alive and idealizes a situation where 8,000 people died.  That gives other conservatives space to demand a defunding of FEMA and National Weather Services, because hey, at least they aren't opening praising a situation where thousands drown to death.  Also, by focusing attention on 1900, Paul can distract from people comparing the excellent government response to Irene with the piss-poor government response to Katrina.  

As I noted yesterday, Democrats need to loudly resist this.  Not only denounce Paul's statements, but go the next step and hang him on Republicans in general.  Irene is a great occasion to show how effective government can be if being run by people who believe in government.  It's often hard to show how that works, because as noted before, when things are going well, people tend not to notice them.  But one opportunity is to highlight ignorant statements like Paul's and contrast them with our realities.  

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:52 AM • (123) Comments

I thought his edited-out-by-MSNBC statement that we don’t need FEMA or governmental public safety organizations because we’ve got the Second Amendment was possibly even more amazing. ‘Cause if you’ve got a hurricane bearing down on you, you can shoot it down.

And if the hurricane knocks out your fresh water supply, you can go shoot someone and take their water.

Comment #1: Scott  on  08/29  at  10:12 AM

I totally agree with you about the kitten thing. The man can be dead wrong on nearly every facet of policy imaginable, and a racist woman-hater to boot, but Iraq was bad news so all is forgiven. The lack of accountability his fans have for him far exceeds that of any Democratic Obama-supporter I’ve ever seen.

Comment #2: SweetT  on  08/29  at  10:13 AM

@Scott -

In Paultopia, the same people own the guns as own the water, and they’ve got gold stockpiled too. Those who don’t have those things stockpiled are building character by dying, you see. They’ll know better next time.

Comment #3: SweetT  on  08/29  at  10:14 AM

This is kind of typical Paul in that he says something that many reasonable people could agree with (the war in Iraq is fucked up! marijuana should be legal! flood insurance does promote risky behavior!), but it’s in a context of a seriously evil world view. And people latch on to the one bit they agree with without considering the larger world view.

The bit about Galveston rebuilding is just dumb, though. The city didn’t rebuild to even a shadow of its former self. It’s a little tourist town. It used to be a major American port city. And questions about moral hazard and flood insurance aside, it’s not like we can just do away with port cities and not have them.

Comment #4: chingona  on  08/29  at  10:15 AM

You’d think Paul and his followers would just be happy the gold standard is being applied somewhere…

Comment #5: Big_Southern  on  08/29  at  10:18 AM

Of course, lots of dudes around here love this jerk.
I admit, watching Republican establishment types stammer about him used to amuse me, but it really isn’t worth giving him attention. And his creepy son who isn’t sure wheelchair access and civil rights laws are really good ideas.
I spit in their general directions.
What is the thing about the gold, besides wanting to kick it Scarlett O’ Hara Style? (Which I know they’d be just fine with.)

Comment #6: chicating  on  08/29  at  10:25 AM

Are there actually that many progressives that like Paul? Every single rabid Ron Paul supporter I know is like my brother in law—people who think the current Republican party isn’t right wing enough. Being anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-education, and anti-equality are the main selling points of Paul’s position. Even though they would never admit upfront that Paul is any of those things. It’s always “Paul’s just telling the truth about a situation, and if the things he says seem to portray women/gays/blacks in a poor/stereotypical light, confirming all the worst things we already thought about those groups, well then that’s just the logical conclusion. Not sexist/homophobic/racist at all. It’s beyond frustrating to try an argue with them because they’re lying about their motives from the get go, but taking on this smug mantle of superiority because they’re just so dedicated to “rationality”, you know.

Of course, that “rationality” is what led to my neice and nephew being (christian) homeschooled because my brother in law believes that public education is a conspiracy to indoctrinate children into a liberal worldview, and he absolutely believes that he can and will control what information they will be allowed to be exposed to. My neice is six, and despite being absolutely delightful, can barely read and write, so I guess his plan is working.

Comment #7: Egnu Cledge  on  08/29  at  10:25 AM

He’s attracted the female liberal conspiracy types, too.  I have two in my office.  I just popped over the cube wall to tell one of them that he claims that we don’t need any federal disaster relief, and all she said was, “I still like him.”  I’ve already brought up the litany of crank positions that Amanda mentions in this post (racist, homophobe, anti-abortion), but they just don’t care.  It’s more than just his opposition to the Iraq war that gets them, though.  They think that he’s outside of the corporate-run government and that automatically makes him superior to every other politician, regardless of how his actual policy positions would harm THEM specifically.

Comment #8: Blitzgal  on  08/29  at  10:30 AM

Blitzgal @10:30 - I think that whole “he’s outside of the corporate-run government” thing is important, though. So many people know (and they’re not wrong) that the corporate-run government situation is bad and screwing them over, that any appeal to outside it is compelling, even when the person with that appeal is holding some truly awful views that may even be worse. The public knows the current power structure isn’t working for them.

Of course, as people here have pointed out many times, the people who best seem poised to capitalize on this are either charlatans who are still on the corporate teat or people with some very nasty totalitarian tendencies.

Comment #9: LC  on  08/29  at  10:48 AM

Egnu:Are there actually that many progressives that like Paul?

I dunno if they qualify as progressives, but there’s a determined slice of my new town, Fairfield, Iowa, that adores Ron Paul, and always has.  The gowns, people related to the Maharishi School here, hear the siren call about the liberalization of drug laws, his anti-foreign war stand, and personal liberty; the towns hear the siren related to liberty, guns, gold and the utter destruction of the Federal government.

Blitzgal:They think that he’s outside of the corporate-run government and that automatically makes him superior to every other politician, regardless of how his actual policy positions would harm THEM specifically.

B-I-N-G-O.  I’d say that’s universal amongst his supporters, no matter their sex.  And it just gets reinforced every time the “Mainstream” criticizes Paul, or ignores him.

I’d love for the Pandagon No Bullshit Express to lay siege to this joint.

Comment #10: idiosynchronic  on  08/29  at  10:48 AM

#7 - “Are there actually that many progressives that like Paul?”

There’s quite a few commenters online who say that they’re progressive and support Ron Paul over the war, drug legalization and well, that’s it.  However I have my doubts that that they really are liberals and not just saying that they are.

Comment #11: JMPEsq  on  08/29  at  10:49 AM

Good point, Egnu Cledge @7.  Your brother-in-law is dedicated to his freedom from liberalism so that he can totally control his children.  That pretty much sums up Paulist views:  No limits on freedom of action for white men so they can remove all freedom of action for everybody else.

The twits who think he’s a libertarian with radical support for freedom all like to pretend that he’s talking about freedom for everybody but he wants it only for the 30% of the population that is white men and is strongly opposed to freedom for the rest of us.

Comment #12: Nutella  on  08/29  at  10:50 AM

They think that he’s outside of the corporate-run government and that automatically makes him superior to every other politician, regardless of how his actual policy positions would harm THEM specifically.

Which is weird since the type of government Paul and his ilk espouse is basically the holy grail of the corporate-state fantasy-land.

Comment #13: Egnu Cledge  on  08/29  at  10:56 AM

There’s quite a few commenters online who say that they’re progressive and support Ron Paul over the war, drug legalization and well, that’s it.  However I have my doubts that that they really are liberals and not just saying that they are.

Yeah, I guess that’s what I was getting at. Not to be all “no true scotsman”, but I think it’s hard to justify yourself a s a progressive if you’re against equal rights (for anybody but white men).

Comment #14: Egnu Cledge  on  08/29  at  11:10 AM

Good point, Egnu Cledge @7.  Your brother-in-law is dedicated to his freedom from liberalism so that he can totally control his children.  That pretty much sums up Paulist views:  No limits on freedom of action for white men so they can remove all freedom of action for everybody else.

It seems to be part of a whole “get rid of the government so every man can be ‘king of his castle’” fantasy.

And much like Christianity, it always amazes me that people who claim such rock-hard reasoning behind their views are so fearful of any opposing viewpoint puncturing their fragile, soap-bubble beliefs.

Comment #15: Egnu Cledge  on  08/29  at  11:16 AM

Egnu: They’re not afraid—their beliefs would hold firm if faced with opposing viewpoints.  It’s just easier to avoid having to deal with them in the first place. (Because, yeah, soap-bubble)

Comment #16: Jayn Newell  on  08/29  at  11:27 AM

Egnu Cledge, 7:

Are there actually that many progressives that like Paul?

There was a Paul campign office—there are still posters—in Park Slope in Brooklyn, possibly the champaigne socialist capital of NY.

Comment #17: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/29  at  11:30 AM

I love hearing the total lack of self-awareness from Pauldouches who claim that they and their idol are the staunchest defenders of the Constitution while basically arguing that the United States should actually still be operating under the Articles of Confederation. For a group that generally views themselves as the most patriotic Americans, they sure seem hell-bent on splitting America into 50 sovereign states operating on a similar model as the European Union.

Comment #18: DTGslu2K  on  08/29  at  11:32 AM

I propose that “Paultroon” be the term for a Ron Paul supporter. Who all’s with me?

Comment #19: Oriscus  on  08/29  at  11:34 AM

“Paulbots are literally the most annoying people on Earth,”

You just don’t understand Dr. Paul’s VISION, he is the ONLY ONE who can RESCUE this country and restore its holy CONSTITUTION…

Just kidding. They recently invaded Matt Yglesias’ blog. One of the many annoying things about them is that when you state your reasons for disliking Ron Paul, be it his opposition to reproductive freedom, or desire to abolish the entire social safety net or whatever, they will tell you that you have have not done your research and that you’re distorting his views. Then they’ll be like “What Dr. Paul *actually believes*” then they will just restate the exact thing you just said you were opposed to.

Comment #20: typist  on  08/29  at  11:34 AM

When it comes to living in natural-disaster-prone areas, for example the coasts, there are four possibilities:

1.  Have the government underwrite the risk or require that insurance be extended to those taking the risk without penalty, because we all reap the reward of shipping, fishing, agriculture, tourism on the coasts.  In other words, share the risk among all.

2.  “Let the people decide because they’re smart enough and don’t need the nanny state with their stupid seat belts ruining their lives,” meaning let them be stupid and take the brunt of the damage when risk becomes reality, because they supposedly reaped the big rewards.  Even if they aren’t the biggest profitmakers.  Ask any farmer.

3.  Educate everyone into being an enlightened little economic actor and they will refuse to work in shipping, fishing, agriculture and tourism without extra money to counteract the extra risk they are taking in working there.  Bahaha.

4.  Ban anyone from living in “risky” areas.

Libertarians suggest 3 is the answer, but 3 will never happen because humans underestimate their personal risk when there’s a juicy reward in sight.  People undercut their own interests for cash now, especially in this economy.  And this is true even when people are perfectly educated, but of course we actually have widespread innumeracy as well as disinformation floating around.

4 will never happen because people benefit from trade, agriculture, fishing and tourism.

So we are left with 1 and 2.  They want 2, but pretend it’s 3.

Comment #21: oldfeminist  on  08/29  at  11:49 AM

Nothing like a good storm to drive out or just outright kill the poor so that you won’t have them voting in large numbers anymore.

Witness the fact that the public housing stock of NOLA has never been rebuilt.  Those people were not welcome to be there, and certainly not allowed to return.

Comment #22: Ms Kate  on  08/29  at  11:57 AM

#3 also vastly overestimates the amount of power that many people have when making these sorts of decisions.  Sure, they could demand extra pay and in theory, they’d get it.  In reality, though, odds are someone more desperate will come along and agree to do the job for less than you will.

Comment #23: Jayn Newell  on  08/29  at  12:01 PM

Ron Paul would be irrelevant if Obama weren’t such a Drug Warrior.  Obama could destroy Ron Paul’s career in one stroke by taking on the drug companies and making weed legal.

Comment #24: Punditus Maximus  on  08/29  at  12:08 PM

How you can even deign to argue with Paulbots is beyond my comprehension. They are worse than LaRouche supporters—like a brain dead zombie cult who just can’t believe their bigoted leader has ever done a single thing wrong in his life.

The hurricane did not hit DC as hard as predicted and the earthquake was a 5.8 so not catastrophic. Which did not give us the opportunity I was hoping for—to see what the republicans response would be if there were huge damage from a natural disaster in places like McLean, VA where a lot of them live. Would they refuse government assistance? Or would they have their hands out for more than their fair share because they “deserve it” as the taxpayers/job creators? I’m guessing the latter and they wouldn’t apologize for the distance between what they say and what they actually do either.

Comment #25: serious bette  on  08/29  at  12:17 PM

Amanda, your last two posts have been killer.  I cannot heap enough praise on them.

People in Paul’s district shouldn’t have to look back to 1900 to call him on his bullshit.  Ike hit in 2008.  We (I’m in Houston) survived widespread mass destruction because of the gov’t (building codes, evacuations, proper response & planning).  Was it perfect?  No, but it worked.  Anyone who belittles the lack of mass destruction from Irene (due to good planning) or glorifies Paul’s call for massive death can kiss the pale-est part of my ass.

Comment #26: bouj  on  08/29  at  12:18 PM

Paul’s function in the conservative movement is to pull it to the right. He comes out and says something outlandish like claiming that we don’t need FEMA or that desegregation actually worsened race relations (the insinuation being that white people can only deal with black people if they have formal legal superiority over them), and that helps make crazy wingnuttery that falls just short that sound more moderate

Quite so, but it’s worth pointing out that this effect applies to the entire Village, not just the GOP.

Comment #27: Triplanetary  on  08/29  at  12:22 PM

Jayn, yes, that’s why the imaginary #3 postulates that EVERYONE would become a smart economic actor.  There are always enough stupid or intentionally miseducated people willing to take the risk. 

“But then you can’t strike it rich!” they say, believing that they can’t make it big because of those terrible government regulations that keep them from being vibrant entrepreneurs. 

They cry that the cost of meeting the regulations is what keeps them out of business (e.g. paying for testing an infant car seat keeps Joe’s Infant Car Seats from happening).  They don’t think that, if the regulations are removed, they would still be competing with big businesses that will still outrun them in price and distribution and now no one has a safe infant car seat because you don’t have to make them safe.

Comment #28: oldfeminist  on  08/29  at  12:23 PM

“Obama could destroy Ron Paul’s career in one stroke by taking on the drug companies and making weed legal.”

Did you know we have a congress that makes things legal and illegal? 

Granted Obama can do a lot on the enforcement side of things and has been a disappointment there, but he’s not a dictator who can decide all on his own what is legal and not legal.

Comment #29: Nutella  on  08/29  at  12:25 PM

I was in college in Miami when Hurricane Andrew hit, and I well remember the vast areas of devestation where entire communities were literally erased due to the shoddy construction allowed by lax building codes. Florida, at least, quickly realized that they had been idiots and worked to create some of the strictest building codes in the country.

I’m not sure why getting rid of all building codes and standards would have been a better response, but Ron Paul and his supporters are more than welcome to give those buildings a whirl the next time disaster strikes. I’m sure their upstanding moral fiber will be far more resiliant than hastily tacked together drywall and plywood.

Comment #30: Egnu Cledge  on  08/29  at  12:29 PM

You’re right, of course—I meant decriminalize weed via enforcement, and also make a push to remove it from Schedule I.

Comment #31: Punditus Maximus  on  08/29  at  12:30 PM

oldfeminist: It also ignores that what’s ‘smart’ for one person may be dumb for another.  If you’re desperate enough, less money is better than no money.

Comment #32: Jayn Newell  on  08/29  at  12:31 PM

Ron Paul supporters are a symptom of a dysfunctional political system.

We had George Bush, warmonger.  Now we’ve got Barack Obama, sloth progressive.  People want rapid, visible progressive change and Ron Paul is one of the few politicians that refuse to side with the media in selling high military costs, drug war propaganda, and corporate subsidies to a national audience.

Now, on the flip side, he’s also a racist and misogynist asshole.  But combating racism and misogynism aren’t major campaign issues right now.  Budgets and debt and corporate malfeasance and government corruption are the themes of the day.  And Ron Paul is selling a degree of sincerity that mainstream Dems and Republicans won’t touch.

We have a serious dearth of brave and principled politicians in the Democratic Party.  Everything is compromise and promises of reform, but visible progress is painfully slow in arriving and often the product of unpleasant compromise.  What’s more, conspiracy theories abound - Social Security / Medicare is a national scam, the FBI is going to seize all our guns, the price of gas is being set by the White House, unemployment is a product of government waste, blah blah blah.

I can’t get angry with progressives for going over to the dark side, because the mainstream leadership of the progressive movement has been really shaky the last four years.

Comment #33: Zifnab  on  08/29  at  12:31 PM

Nope, Zif.  If I’m going to get pissed at progressives who blindly support whatever right-wing shit Obama does, then I am going to get quadruply pissed at progressives who are willing to abandon ship at the first anti-war psychotic right-winger who supports legalization of weed.  Man, at least I can understand why some progressives stay with Obama.  At least he cares about women’s issues (with limitations, of course).  Ron Paul literally has nothing to his name other than legalization and anti-war views based in isolationism.  I expect better of self-proclaimed progressives.

Comment #34: Atheist Feminazi  on  08/29  at  12:40 PM

While we’re talking hurracanes in his district, I point to Carla in September, 1961.  It wiped out the hosipal my mother was born in, and most of the town around it.

Comment #35: helen w. h.  on  08/29  at  12:49 PM

“They [Paulbots] recently invaded Matt Yglesias’ blog. One of the many annoying things about them is that when you state your reasons for disliking Ron Paul, be it his opposition to reproductive freedom, or desire to abolish the entire social safety net or whatever, they will tell you that you have have not done your research and that you’re distorting his views. Then they’ll be like “What Dr. Paul *actually believes*” then they will just restate the exact thing you just said you were opposed to.”

...but you don’t understand.  When Dr. Paul says things in support of insane policy positions that Paulbots later adamantly deny he said, he moves his hands like this [some hand motion]...instead of like that [some other hand motion] like you did.  So you were wrong again.  You libruls just can’t get it right, can you…

***

BTW, where in the US is a place that is unaffected by disasters?  Between earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, drought, flooding, killer heat-waves, exploding volcanoes, off-shore oil well explosions, avalanches, pipeline explosions, nuclear plant incidents, etc., etc., etc., is there any place that would never ever benefit from Americans thoughtfully coming together (via their governments) and putting in place emergency plans to prepare for, and handle, these situations when they occur?

Or is living under a rock a Paulbot/Eric-Cantor-style-Republican pastime?...

Comment #36: MikeEss  on  08/29  at  12:50 PM

INTPagan: why?  Despair is despair.  Ron Paul’s better than a heroin habit.

Comment #37: Punditus Maximus  on  08/29  at  12:51 PM

Pretending that Ron Paul stands for progressive principles is just flat out delusional.  He thinks the Civil Rights act is unconstitutional.  He thinks Roe v Wade should be overturned so the states can decide.  He thinks we should dump FEMA, and that the Fed should be transitioned out.  He voted to build a fence between us and Mexico and wants to kick out illegal immigrants, including those who’ve lived here for decades.  Considering that, as someone upthread pointed out, he wants to privatize everything and let the “free market” decide, anyone who believes that he’s somehow an outsider in our corporate run government is simply lying to himself.

Comment #38: Blitzgal  on  08/29  at  12:51 PM

He thinks Roe v Wade should be overturned so the states can decide. 
Comment #38: Blitzgal on 08/29 at 12:51 PM

See, this makes as much sense as creationists’ “microevolution yes, macroevolution no.”  If I don’t like the Feds telling me what I can do, why should I like my state telling me what I can do?  There’s no reason to draw the line at the states.  The same argument could be made for local versus state government, and extend it to hyperlocal, then hey, my own little castle.

Comment #39: oldfeminist  on  08/29  at  12:56 PM

@Comment #39: oldfeminist on 08/29 at 12:56 PM

The same argument could be made for local versus state government, and extend it to hyperlocal, then hey, my own little castle.

“Castle” seems appropriate to such a fantastical belief. Ron Paul’s ideas strike me as being like fairy treasure; they’re quite pretty but they melt at the touch of cold iron. Perhaps the Paul-ites could pool their pots of gold bars and raise a leprechaun army to defend the castle.

Comment #40: atheist  on  08/29  at  01:10 PM

More than that, Blitz, he’s defended a constitutional amendment to ban abortion.

Comment #41: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/29  at  01:15 PM

Ah, Ron Paul: he really does pose a dilemma in my opinion.

On the one hand, he is absolutely correct on the issues of (real) war, the war on drugs, torture, and civil liberties.  Would that we could get a Democrat that took Paul’s position on these issues!

On the other hand, he absolutely sucks on civil rights, women’s rights, LGBTQ rights, the social safety net (including disaster planning), and consumer/industrial/business/environmental regulations.  In short, he’s your typical Republican on these issues.

And we all know the way this would shake out with Ron Paul as president.  People of color, women, and members of the LGBTQ community would have the absolute right to housing and access to other business services that they could pay for assuming that they can find someone willing to take their money.  And in a lot, if not most places, that assumption will not be born out.  Not enough money to feed you and your child?  You starve.  To old to work?  Then go die.  Hurricane bearing down on you or earthquake about to demolish your city and you are on your own.  This state of affairs would be absolutely unacceptable (and that is an understatement).  Or as Nutella put it:

No limits on freedom of action for white men so they can remove all freedom of action for everybody else.

(I’d add ‘rich’ and ‘straight/cis gendered’ to ‘white men’ to capture the full intersectionality of Paultopia.)

And therein lies the dilemma, doesn’t it?  The good is very attractive, and the bad is very repulsive.  But the bad is no worse than the rest of the Republicans, and the good far exceeds what the Democrats offer.

This is why I just can’t get all that exercised about Ron Paul.  I think it is also why a lot of liberals and progressives like the guy: the good is so good they are not seeing how bad the bad actually is.  Democratic office holders like Obama do not help the situation when they escalate the war on drugs, the actual wars, the suveillance state, and talk about “shared [add guffaw here] sacrifice” with respect to the social safety net.  For this reason, I just cannot get upset with these people - only try and redirect their attention to the bad.

But when it comes to the presidency (or any other elected office really) I would prefer Ron Paul to Michelle Bachman, Rick Perry, Mitt Romney, or any other Republican candidate.  Being better than every other Republican candidtate is, however, very faint praise.

I’d also rather put up with a Paulbot than any other sort of Republican, particularly neocons and drug warriors.  But again, I damn with faint praise.

Comment #42: Richard Goblin  on  08/29  at  01:20 PM

So, basically, government intervention and control is bad, bad, bad…...unless it’s about government control of women and minorities. Like I said, he’s just another Republican.

Comment #43: Egnu Cledge  on  08/29  at  01:22 PM

@INTPagan:

Ron Paul literally has nothing to his name other than legalization and anti-war views based in isolationism.

That’s a big exception.  Drug legalization and anti-war views are the backbone of the youth libertarian movement.  You might as well get mad at the Evangelical Christian voter that supports Perry for his dogged Dominionism.  “Well, but if it wasn’t for the Dominionism, you wouldn’t like him.”  So what?  Many of these people are effectively single-issue voters.  :-p

Comment #44: Zifnab  on  08/29  at  01:23 PM

@Comment #44: Zifnab on 08/29 at 01:23 PM

That’s a big exception.  Drug legalization and anti-war views are the backbone of the youth libertarian movement.  You might as well get mad at the Evangelical Christian voter that supports Perry for his dogged Dominionism.  “Well, but if it wasn’t for the Dominionism, you wouldn’t like him.”  So what?  Many of these people are effectively single-issue voters.  :-p

Understood. I guess that in this way Ron Paul is showing me I have absolutely no interest in libertarianism, or libertarians. They are just too delusional, and I don’t like that.

 

Comment #45: atheist  on  08/29  at  01:27 PM

Actually the reality is we do build too much in dangerous areas (and bear in mind, lots of disaster aid recipients are relatively well off and live in dangerous areas because they like it there—it’s true there are some things that have to be built in such areas but very little of it needs to be residential properties). But the libertarians don’t get that when a disaster happens, we are going to insure, whether or not we say in advance that we won’t. We’re simply not going to allow people to die to teach people a lesson, nor should we.

The correct policy response is to mandate purchase of government insurance if you want to live in dangerous areas. Price it at market rates and some people will move away from vulnerable areas unless they need to be there. But if we aren’t going to do that, FEMA or something like it is the only other viable option. Standing by and letting people suffer isn’t. (By the way, libertarian proposals on the banking bailouts have the same problem.)

Comment #46: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  01:28 PM

@Egnu Cledge:

So, basically, government intervention and control is bad, bad, bad…...unless it’s about government control of women and minorities. Like I said, he’s just another Republican.

There’s this half-truth floating around Libertarian circles that the federal government is a problem because it doesn’t properly respond to the demands of the people.  Paul’s playing the “States Rights” song, tuned for a new generation.

Of course, it’s only a half-truth because Congress really is failing to respond to public pressure.  And that really is a problem.  The Libertarians are nihilists.  But nihilism is easy in the current environment.

Comment #47: Zifnab  on  08/29  at  01:28 PM

They typically respond to Paul’s anti-choice views with the “he thinks it’s a states rights issue” cop out.  When I rebut that by telling them that no state (or any jurisdiction) is entitled to interfere in my private medical decisions or deprive me of my personal liberty they invariably respond with forced birth bs about the “humanity” of the fetus, thus revealing how they are the authoritarian misogynists we knew they were all along.

Comment #48: DonnaDiva  on  08/29  at  01:39 PM

@Comment #47: Zifnab on 08/29 at 01:28 PM

The Libertarians are nihilists.  But nihilism is easy in the current environment.

If only it were that simple. No, I don’t believe the libertarians are nihilists. I think many of them seriously believe that crap. Which, when you think about it, is worse than nihilism.

 

Comment #49: atheist  on  08/29  at  01:41 PM

@Punditus: And finding legitimately progressive candidates is better than voting for Ron Paul.  He’s never going to win anything more than what he has; all he does is drag the discourse rightwards, and it’s shameful that any progressives support that.  If they’re going to go tilting after windmills then better that they do so after progressive windmills.

@Zifnab: Yes, but I’m not talking about libertarians (or Libertarians).  I’m talking about progressives.  I have as little use for libertarians as I do for movement Republicans, and Ron Paul is the worst of both.

Comment #50: Atheist Feminazi  on  08/29  at  01:42 PM

I know you have to buy flood insurance if you live in a flood plain.  Do you have to buy hurricane insurance if you build your mansion on the oceanfront, or do you wait till it’s blown away and they expect the government to bail you out?  Waterfront property is nearly always far more expensive than land further inland, so I expect most waterfront property belongs to people who could afford to live in a more sheltered, but less beautiful, place.

Comment #51: gretchen  on  08/29  at  01:45 PM

I sure hope this fucknozzle makes good on retiring from Congress this time around when he washes out of the primary process.  Thanks to gerrymandering, he’s now “my” congresscritter. I refuse to think of him as my representative.  Especially with his praising the results of the Great Storm of 1900.  Yeah, great outcome there, Doc.  Largest city in the state fucking _erased_.

Comment #52: Scott the Obscure  on  08/29  at  01:51 PM

Ron Pauls views on war sound great until the next time we want to intervene to stop genocide.  Not all of us liberals are opposed to war 100% of the time.

Comment #53: Satanicpanic  on  08/29  at  01:53 PM

Ron Pauls views on war sound great until the next time we want to intervene to stop genocide.  Not all of us liberals are opposed to war 100% of the time.

Actually, “stopping genocide” is a really bad reason to go to war, one that results in terrorist blowback and murky missions and civilian and military casualties and US military imperialism and all sorts of really bad things. Learning that there are things in this world that are simply not our responsibility is part of growing up with respect to foreign policy, because the alternative is a US empire that can’t be sustained and does great harm to the American people.

Having said that, the fact that Ron Paul may understand that (or may not, actually) is at best proof that a broken clock can be right twice a day. The guy’s a complete whackjob.

Comment #54: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  02:02 PM

I would prefer Ron Paul to Michelle Bachman, Rick Perry, Mitt Romney, or any other Republican candidate.

Totally disagree. I think Paul would be about even with Bachman or Perry, and much worse than Romney. Romney’s a weasel but I’ll take a weasel over a fanatic any day.

And Satanicpanic, indeed. I was against the Iraq War but am more or less ok with the other wars, tho I think we need to wind down Afghanistan in the very near future.

Comment #55: typist  on  08/29  at  02:05 PM

“More than that, Blitz, he’s defended a constitutional amendment to ban abortion.”

That’s even more beyond the pale.  He’s just like any Republican who wants smaller government except when it comes to shoving their social and religious ideologies on everyone.  Hypocritical crackpot psychopath!

Comment #56: Blitzgal  on  08/29  at  02:20 PM

Re Delin Esper: Really?  How about the intervention in Bosnia?  What blowback have we experienced from there?  What “really bad things” came as a result of that?

There are plenty of things that “aren’t our responsibility” that we shouldn’t turn a blind eye to.  And thinking that our military can sometimes be used for good doesn’t mean I think we should have bases in 100+ countries.  There is middle ground there.

Comment #57: Satanicpanic  on  08/29  at  02:21 PM

I don’t understand people who want to live in a third world country.

It’s better if buildings are constructed to a safety code, that food is checked for safety, and that children are educated, especially when they are expected to become functional voting citizens.

Nice things, like living in civilization, cost money.  It is not civilized to let predictable and inevitable natural events kill and maim.  NOAA is worth it.  FEMA, properly run by people who have training in something other than horse racing, is worth it.  Keeping the poor from dining and rotting in the streets is worth it.

How much pot do you have to smoke to ignore human corpses in the streets?  I have a feeling it’s a lot more than what it takes to be a Paul-bot.

Comment #58: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/29  at  02:22 PM

(and bear in mind, lots of disaster aid recipients are relatively well off and live in dangerous areas because they like it there—it’s true there are some things that have to be built in such areas but very little of it needs to be residential properties)

You’re erasing the people who live in all places of the country who aren’t well off.

The correct policy response is to mandate purchase of government insurance if you want to live in dangerous areas. Price it at market rates and some people will move away from vulnerable areas unless they need to be there. But if we aren’t going to do that, FEMA or something like it is the only other viable option. Standing by and letting people suffer isn’t. (By the way, libertarian proposals on the banking bailouts have the same problem.)

You’re completely overlooking the people who can’t up and move from a dangerous place because they were born there and don’t have the means to leave, or people who lost the means to leave, and can’t afford an insurance mandate.

And where would they go anyway? There are no safe places, no where to escape from fires and flooding and tornadoes and earthquakes and hurricanes and tsunamis and volcanoes and landslides and lightning and snow, you’ll have to deal with if not one, several of these things no matter where you are in the country.

Comment #59: R.T.  on  08/29  at  02:27 PM

Good point about Paul wanting a Constitutional amendment to ban abortion.  That even puts the lie to the “it’s a state issue” bullshit.

Comment #60: DonnaDiva  on  08/29  at  02:28 PM

Really bad things also come about as a result of failing to intervene to stop genocide—regional instability and massive emigration come to mind.

Comment #61: Kit-Kat  on  08/29  at  02:29 PM

Re Delin Esper: Really?  How about the intervention in Bosnia?  What blowback have we experienced from there?  What “really bad things” came as a result of that? There are plenty of things that “aren’t our responsibility” that we shouldn’t turn a blind eye to.

The intervention in Bosnia PROBABLY didn’t result in any terrorist blowback. (It’s possible that it formed part of the motivation for 9/11, but that’s something of a stretch. Certainly the perception that the US was imperialistic, however, DID form part of the motivation for 9/11.)

But it did do several things—it set a precedent that NATO would no longer be a defensive organization but instead would intervene in conflicts and take sides (which gave us the current Libya situation), and also, in that sense, prevented the dismantlement of NATO which should have been done after the Cold War (which means we still have troops in Europe, which helped facilitate the Iraq War), it killed thousands of Bosnian and Serbian civilians, it also led to the Kosovo intervention which killed even more Bosnian and Serbian civilians, it validated the view that we could accomplish foreign policy ends just by bombing (which is truly immoral, because we can murder people from 30,000 feet without worrying about getting our own troops killed), and it didn’t even prevent the Serbian ethnic cleansing of Bosnia, because it was so late in the game.

Plus, each “successful” intervention greases the skids for the next Vietnam or Iraq. We have a string of “successes” like Bosnia that convinces us of our invulnerability, and then suddenly we find out we are not invulnerable and 4,000 Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians pay the price.

Comment #62: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  02:29 PM

You’re completely overlooking the people who can’t up and move from a dangerous place because they were born there and don’t have the means to leave, or people who lost the means to leave, and can’t afford an insurance mandate.

Somehow the mandatory flood insurance system works despite this theoretical problem.

And where would they go anyway? There are no safe places, no where to escape from fires and flooding and tornadoes and earthquakes and hurricanes and tsunamis and volcanoes and landslides and lightning and snow, you’ll have to deal with if not one, several of these things no matter where you are in the country.

Which is why we should make them insure.

Look, my view of this is colored by watching the good people of Malibu collect FEMA money and rebuild after every predictable fire or landslide every few years. You can’t stand up there and refuse to help them—the libertarians are full of shit. But the fact that you can’t do that means that people ought to insure—especially well-off people who like to look at coastal sunsets. They are basically getting a governmental subsidy when they aren’t required to insure.

The poor people you say you care about—in places like South Central LA—are paying higher taxes because people on the coast aren’t required to pay the true cost of their activities.

Comment #63: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  02:33 PM

If we weren’t willing to build in dangerous areas, much of this country wouldn’t exist.  Florida alone would have to be virtually abandoned, as ninety percent of the population lives within ten miles of the coast.  California?  Too earthquake prone.  Kansas?  The Wizard of Oz starts there for a pretty significant plot reason.

Comment #64: prufrock  on  08/29  at  02:40 PM

Yes, because there are no poor people living on the coast.  None at all.

And the value of that insurance is pretty variable.  There’s no where in the country that’s completely safe, but some areas are safer than others.  A hurricane in Florida is pretty normal.  A hurricane in NYC, while possible, is considerably rarer.

Regardless of your solution, you’re taxing people for the activities of a few—either you’re doing it directly, or you’re dong so to the benefit of insurance companies who are getting new customers who have little reason for an insurance plan.

Comment #65: Jayn Newell  on  08/29  at  02:43 PM

If we weren’t willing to build in dangerous areas, much of this country wouldn’t exist.  Florida alone would have to be virtually abandoned, as ninety percent of the population lives within ten miles of the coast.  California?  Too earthquake prone.  Kansas?  The Wizard of Oz starts there for a pretty significant plot reason.

Again, insure. People will still build in dangerous areas.

The issue is that FEMA is basically a subsidy from people who live in less dangerous areas, who are GENERALLY poorer (although that is a gross generalization), to people who live in more dangerous areas (coasts, hillsides, riverbanks) who are GENERALLY richer.

It’s better than the Hobbesian libertarian alternative (which won’t happen anyway, as we’d go ahead and bail people out ad hoc if FEMA didn’t exist), but it’s worse than incorporating the cost of potential disasters into people’s housing costs. You would still have development in dangerous areas, but you would have less of it, and you wouldn’t have the cross-subsidy.

Comment #66: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  02:45 PM

Yes, because there are no poor people living on the coast.  None at all.

Why would the fact that there are some poor people on the coast refute the argument that we need to require insurance?

This is like the mortgage interest deduction debate. Yes, there are some poor and middle class homeowners who take the mortgage interest deduction. Nonetheless, overall, it’s a big subsidy to rich people. So is FEMA.

Regardless of your solution, you’re taxing people for the activities of a few—either you’re doing it directly, or you’re dong so to the benefit of insurance companies who are getting new customers who have little reason for an insurance plan.

The point of insurance is to price the risk into the cost of property. FEMA doesn’t do that, that’s why it’s a subsidy.

As I said, FEMA’s a lot better than Paul’s stupid libertarianism, but it’s still a generally upwardly redistributive subsidy .

Comment #67: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  02:48 PM

@oldfeminist@28: What really shows the lie in their claims of opposing legislation that hurts small businesses is that there actually are a lot of laws that do that…and they’re all state/local laws, which Paulbots support because States’ Rights trump all. What they oppose are federal safety laws that, for the most part, no small business is hurt by. They do put a dent in corporate profits, though.

Lead based paint isn’t any cheaper for you or me to buy than paint without lead. If we were buying it by the tens of millions of gallons, we could get leaded paint far cheaper from a country with no safety regulations.

Comment #68: JThompson  on  08/29  at  02:49 PM

@ Dilan Esper

Why not have a national system that is paid into through taxes and covers everyone, even the people who don’t make enough to pay federal taxes, the very people you want to pay more with mandated insurance?

We’ve got a progressive tax system, it wouldn’t be hard to actually make people with more money and higher value property to simply pay more for what they’ve got, and even more if they have more.

I don’t perceive how making everyone pay mandated insurance fees depending on their geographical location helps unless you propose that the insurance factors in how much people make or how much and by what quality of property they have, and leaves those without the means to pay more alone.

Comment #69: R.T.  on  08/29  at  02:50 PM

@ typist

Totally disagree. I think Paul would be about even with Bachman or Perry, and much worse than Romney. Romney’s a weasel but I’ll take a weasel over a fanatic any day.

Bachman, Perry, and Romney will do every bad thing Paul will do - worse in the case of Bachman and Perry.  Romney is a “weasel” because he is trying to sugar coat it.  Paul is (sadly) superior to most Democratic candidates and officeholders when it comes to civil liberties, foreign aggression, torture, and the war on drugs and far beyond any of the other Republican contenders.  I’ll take bad+good over just plain bad any day.

That said, I won’t be voting for Paul if he gets the Republican nomination.  But I’ll feel a bit safer if he does by some longshot beat out the others for the nomination.  And this only on the grounds that if he did win I would at least get something I am interested in.

@ Satanicpanic

Ron Pauls views on war sound great until the next time we want to intervene to stop genocide.  Not all of us liberals are opposed to war 100% of the time.

Name the last military conflict we got into to halt a genocide other than Bosnia?  And even in Bosnia I suspect we were more concerned about regional stability than genocide.  Next, name the last military conflict we got into to stop genocide where the victims were not white (like the Bosnians).

Comment #70: Richard Goblin  on  08/29  at  02:59 PM

re: Dilan
The US was militaristic before Bosnia.  9/11 was due to a specific set of circumstances (our presence in Saudia Arabia, our alliance w/Israel), not to some general dislike of American militarism.

How does Bosnia make the next Vietnam more likely when Vietnam took place before Bosnia?

NATO has been used as a defensive organization since then, in Afghanistan.  The Libyan war is not over; it’s still way too early to say what the results of that will be. 

Does it make a war more moral if you attack with ground troops?  Why?  Because it’s more “fair”?  Shouldn’t we be looking for the policy that results in the least amount of death, period?  Sure, it might make it more likely you’ll hit the right target, then again it might not.  It’s not like civilian casualties didn’t happen before the invention of the air strike.

Comment #71: Satanicpanic  on  08/29  at  03:00 PM

RT:

There’s two basic reasons that doesn’t work as well:

1. Jacking up the cost of development in dangerous areas ensures we have less of it. In other words, it saves us money in the long term and also means fewer people lose their lives or suffer grave harm.

2. FEMA’s distribution of money is actually pretty disproportionate. There are particular areas of the country, especially, as I noted earlier, Malibu, but also the barrier islands outside the Intercoastal Waterway on the East Coast and similar barrier islands in the Gulf, that get a LOT of disaster aid over time from FEMA, because those are disproportionately dangerous places to live. Your policy treats those people as equivalent with people who have a once in a blue moon disaster.

As I said, we have mandatory flood insurance in this country, to deal with one sort of “predictable catastrophe”. And it works fine. There’s no good reason to extend it at least to other “predictable catastrophes”.

Comment #72: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:00 PM

Ah, yes all those rich people on the Gulf Coast.  Old oil-boom towns after the oil runs out, local tourist towns like Galveston, post-Katrina NOLA… yep, just hotbeds of wealth and power there!  Seriously, most of humanity lives within a few miles of a coast or major river, just as they always have.  Big chunks of the coastline are badly economically distressed, and have been for quite awhile.  It’s not all rich folks with unneeded summer homes.

Comment #73: Scott the Obscure  on  08/29  at  03:04 PM

Oh, Amanda. Surely you want the wars to end too, right? And if abortion is truly the most sacred opportunity this country can offer anyone, rest assured devolving the issue to the states won’t make it illegal except in places where people democratically decide they don’t want it. That is, those who have a different definition of rights will decide for themselves that they don’t want abortion. NY and Mass can keep handing out free taxpayer-funded abortion coupons on the sidewalk if the voters want it that way.

Paul is a racist? Let’s check the scoreboard on that one: Number of racist illustrations in Ron Paul’s 2008 book - 0. Number of racist illustrations in Amanda’s 2008 book - what, 15 or so? But you didn’t draw those! Really? Well who did, and why are they in your book then? Do you see how this works?

You need a new and better enemy. Ron Paul isn’t it.

Comment #74: YoNoSoyMarinero  on  08/29  at  03:04 PM

The US was militaristic before Bosnia.

True. But every “successful” military intervention increases the likelihood of the next one. So Bosnia contributed to our militarism.

9/11 was due to a specific set of circumstances (our presence in Saudia Arabia, our alliance w/Israel), not to some general dislike of American militarism.

I acknowledged the 9/11 argument was a stretch. Nonetheless, the reason WE, as opposed to, say, Norway (domestic terrorism aside), are a target of international terrorists has everything to do with our military power. Keep a lower profile and we get attacked less.

How does Bosnia make the next Vietnam more likely when Vietnam took place before Bosnia?

The next Vietnam was Iraq, and it was made more likely by what happened in Bosnia.

NATO has been used as a defensive organization since then, in Afghanistan.  The Libyan war is not over; it’s still way too early to say what the results of that will be.

NATO shouldn’t have been in Afghanistan either. (The US should have, but that’s different.) Why does a defensive military alliance devoted to North Atlantic security during the Cold War have any right to bomb and invade countries and overthrow governments? NATO is not the UN.

Does it make a war more moral if you attack with ground troops?  Why?  Because it’s more “fair”?  Shouldn’t we be looking for the policy that results in the least amount of death, period?  Sure, it might make it more likely you’ll hit the right target, then again it might not.  It’s not like civilian casualties didn’t happen before the invention of the air strike.

Bombing is grossly immoral BOTH because it risks civilian life AND because since we don’t take as great a risk, we are more likely to do it.

When your option is limited to sending in ground troops, the whole point is that you are less likely to do it, which is good because war is a bad thing. But it also means when you do it, civilians are less likely to get killed because troops can distinguish between civilian and military targets and bombs can’t.

Comment #75: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:05 PM

Where were all the libertarians when insurance companies were refusing to pay policy holders who lost their homes to Katrina?  Insurers were claiming they didn’t have to honor their agreements because customers bought *flood* insurance, not hurricane insurance (even though a hurricane caused the flooding).  Aren’t contracts holy writ in the eyes of Randroids?

Except when our Galtian overlords find them inconvenient, of course…

Comment #76: Sour Kraut  on  08/29  at  03:06 PM

Ah, yes all those rich people on the Gulf Coast.  Old oil-boom towns after the oil runs out, local tourist towns like Galveston, post-Katrina NOLA… yep, just hotbeds of wealth and power there!  Seriously, most of humanity lives within a few miles of a coast or major river, just as they always have.  Big chunks of the coastline are badly economically distressed, and have been for quite awhile.  It’s not all rich folks with unneeded summer homes.

So what?

Your argument is like arguing that we shouldn’t have mandatory car insurance because poor people can barely afford to pay for gas.

At any rate, I never claimed it was ALL rich folks; only that rich folks disproportionately benefit. (Remember, their property values, and thus their losses, are also higher than the losses of poorer people.)

Comment #77: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:07 PM

Re: Richard Goblin
I can’t imagine why people in Europe would care about something like regional stability. Nothing bad has ever come out of instability in Europe.

I guess until the USA cures its racism, it’s only fair to let white people die too. Is that the answer you’re looking for?

Comment #78: Satanicpanic  on  08/29  at  03:13 PM

The issue is that FEMA is basically a subsidy from people who live in less dangerous areas, who are GENERALLY poorer (although that is a gross generalization), to people who live in more dangerous areas (coasts, hillsides, riverbanks) who are GENERALLY richer.
Comment #66: Dilan Esper on 08/29 at 02:45 PM

So it seems what you think of when you think of people living on the coast is people in multimillion dollar mansions in Malibu. 

What I think of is farmers, fishermen, and people who work at tourist spots, as well as the infrastructure required for those people to live there (schools, government, commerce, banks, construction).  Maybe it’s because I live near the Atlantic Seaboard and have visited there dozens of times in my life, driving through all that coastal land inhabited by people who are right now struggling to recover from Irene. 

The people living there are working, not just hanging out to admire the view.  And there’s a lot more of them than there are multimillionaires in Malibu.

Comment #79: oldfeminist  on  08/29  at  03:15 PM

I can’t imagine why people in Europe would care about something like regional stability.

They do care. And they have militaries which can provide it.

Part of the problem here is that warmongers (including the liberal variety) assume that only a United States Empire can promote any sort of stability anywhere.

Comment #80: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:17 PM

Dilan, insurance *is* required by FEMA rules for housing assistance: “You have filed for insurance benefits and the damage to your property is not covered by your insurance or your insurance settlement is insufficient to meet your losses.”  You are *not* eligible if “you have refused assistance from your insurance provider(s).”

Comment #81: JoeD80  on  08/29  at  03:19 PM

#79:

If they are working, making money on the coast, they can absorb the cost of insurance. Indeed, the cost of that insurance SHOULD be priced into their economic activities.

If they CANNOT afford the cost of the insurance, then that would indicate that their activities are in fact being subsidized by FEMA disaster relief, which means that fewer of them should be living there.

Comment #82: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:19 PM

Dilan, insurance *is* required by FEMA rules for housing assistance: “You have filed for insurance benefits and the damage to your property is not covered by your insurance or your insurance settlement is insufficient to meet your losses.”  You are *not* eligible if “you have refused assistance from your insurance provider(s).”

That’s not what we are talking about. FEMA is secondary to insurance, meaning you have to make insurance claims first. However, unlike people who live in flood zones, people who live in fire, hurricane, or earthquake zones are not required to purchase insurance at all, or to purchase insurance that covers those disasters (indeed, many policies have exclusions).

As I said, the best solution to this is to simply have the government sell them insurance as a condition of living there. That’s how we already handle flood insurance. FEMA is a second best solution.

Comment #83: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:21 PM

And by the way, oldfeminist, there are PLENTY of rich folks who live on the barrier islands of the east and Gulf coasts. There are a bunch of resorts out there and plenty of expensive beachfront property. It ain’t all fishing villages.

Comment #84: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:23 PM

Re- Dilan
The only way your slippery slope argument works is if there were some point in our history when we didn’t regularly make war on other countries.  That time does not exist.  When we started Vietnam, we had barely got out of Korea.  Between Vietnam (1975) and Bosnia (1995) there were at least 3 armed conflicts that I can think of off the top of my head, one of which was a major war (Persian Gulf I).  Success or failure of past conflicts is not the determining factor in whether or not we will make war.

Comment #85: Satanicpanic  on  08/29  at  03:25 PM

Dilan, that wasn’t some special page I quoted from that only deals with flooding, it’s direct from the housing assistance claims for any housing claims in any disaster area, and says you must absolutely have gone through insurance first before being able to claim through FEMA.

Comment #86: JoeD80  on  08/29  at  03:26 PM

#82:  That depends on what you mean by “making money”.  “priced into their economic activities” how?  By asking them(us) to tighten our belts a little more?  Asking them(us) to move somewhere prone to no natural disasters?
Oh, I know, we should demand higher wages!  Yeah, good luck with that.  For most people, that’s not really an option even in good economic times.

Comment #87: Scott the Obscure  on  08/29  at  03:31 PM

Also vacation homes are excluded from FEMA assistance.  It’s not like a free-for-all you know; people do think of these things.

Comment #88: JoeD80  on  08/29  at  03:33 PM

1. Jacking up the cost of development in dangerous areas ensures we have less of it. In other words, it saves us money in the long term and also means fewer people lose their lives or suffer grave harm.

So where are these safe places all the people who can’t afford mandated insurance in “dangerous” places to go? Hey maybe disaster relief can help people relocate to a “safer” place, ever think of that?

<blockuote>FEMA’s distribution of money is actually pretty disproportionate. There are particular areas of the country, especially, as I noted earlier, Malibu, but also the barrier islands outside the Intercoastal Waterway on the East Coast and similar barrier islands in the Gulf, that get a LOT of disaster aid over time from FEMA, because those are disproportionately dangerous places to live. Your policy treats those people as equivalent with people who have a once in a blue moon disaster.</blockquote>

Damn right people should be treated equal, aside from the rich not everyone can pick and choose where they live. And where are these blue moon disaster areas? Every year everywhere: fires, flooding, tornadoes, blizzards, hurricanes, heatwaves, drought, at least one of those without a mixture of a few.

As I said, we have mandatory flood insurance in this country, to deal with one sort of “predictable catastrophe”. And it works fine. There’s no good reason to extend it at least to other “predictable catastrophes”.

Save that you want to kick people out of certain areas whereas I would rather them be covered regardless of where they live. Everyone can be covered, so what if some people may need more assistance.

Finally, as you mentioned in an earlier comment, if you’re so concerned about the rich having their lives subsidized, my proposal eliminated that by raising their taxes.

Comment #89: R.T.  on  08/29  at  03:34 PM

Dilan, that wasn’t some special page I quoted from that only deals with flooding, it’s direct from the housing assistance claims for any housing claims in any disaster area, and says you must absolutely have gone through insurance first before being able to claim through FEMA.

Again, what that form says is that if you HAVE insurance, you have to seek payment from your insurance company first.

For instance, in the 1994 Northridge earthquake here in California, the small percentage of property owners (less than 10 percent) who carried earthquake riders had to go to their insurance companies first before going to FEMA. But the 90 percent who didn’t could go directly to FEMA. That’s all that form means. There is no requirement that anyone in California carry earthquake coverage, even if their home straddles an active fault.

What we are discussing here is the model of federal flood insurance, which says that if you live in a low-lying area prone to flooding and identified by the federal government, you are required to purchase federal flood insurance. And then, when the flood comes, you go to the flood insurance program first before you can make a FEMA claim.

Comment #90: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:35 PM

That depends on what you mean by “making money”.  “priced into their economic activities” how?  By asking them(us) to tighten our belts a little more?  Asking them(us) to move somewhere prone to no natural disasters?
Oh, I know, we should demand higher wages!  Yeah, good luck with that.  For most people, that’s not really an option even in good economic times.

Well, a carbon tax will force some of us to drive a little less too.

The objection that pricing an activity correctly may force people not to engage in it is not a serious objection.

Comment #91: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:36 PM

Also vacation homes are excluded from FEMA assistance.  It’s not like a free-for-all you know; people do think of these things.

“Vacation home” and “beachfront property” are not congruent.

Comment #92: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:36 PM

BTW Dilan,
You’re putting a lot of words in my mouth in order to make your arguments.  I already said I don’t oppose war in all circumstances, if that makes me a warmonger, then fine, I’m not going to cry about what someone on the internet called me.  But it’s not really making your argument any stronger.

Comment #93: Satanicpanic  on  08/29  at  03:39 PM

So where are these safe places all the people who can’t afford mandated insurance in “dangerous” places to go? Hey maybe disaster relief can help people relocate to a “safer” place, ever think of that?

It could. But the politics of THAT (“my family has lived in Malibu / the Outer Banks / New Orleans for 95 years!”) are just as unrealistic as the politics of Ron Paul’s non-solution.

Damn right people should be treated equal, aside from the rich not everyone can pick and choose where they live. And where are these blue moon disaster areas? Every year everywhere: fires, flooding, tornadoes, blizzards, hurricanes, heatwaves, drought, at least one of those without a mixture of a few.

This is faulty reasoning. “Every place could face a disaster” is true. “Every place is equally likely to face a disaster” is false.

And the whole point of pricing schemes is to reduce the level of activities that are costly. Pricing people out of disaster prone areas is no more immoral than pricing people out of buying so much carbon. In both cases, you hurt some poor people, but in both cases, the vast majority of the benefits of an untaxed system go to the wealthy.

Save that you want to kick people out of certain areas whereas I would rather them be covered regardless of where they live. Everyone can be covered, so what if some people may need more assistance.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. Offering free insurance to everyone who lives in the most dangerous areas means more coastal development, which means more people get killed or injured in every disaster and more FEMA payouts (many of which will go to people who could have afforded insurance) are made.

If that is what you favor, fine, but let’s be clear—THAT is what you favor. Not some magical world where the only people who live on the coasts are people who have to work there and we socialize the risk of all the disasters and bear that as a cost of human progress. That’s not how economics works. Lower the cost of something and you get more of it, and more development in disaster prone areas = more lives lost, and more rebuilding costs. There is no way to escape that problem without pricing in the cost of insurance.

Comment #94: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:42 PM

“You have filed for insurance benefits” is a *requirement* not a list of suggestions.  I never said anything about beachfront property FYI.

Comment #95: JoeD80  on  08/29  at  03:42 PM

You’re putting a lot of words in my mouth in order to make your arguments.  I already said I don’t oppose war in all circumstances, if that makes me a warmonger, then fine, I’m not going to cry about what someone on the internet called me.  But it’s not really making your argument any stronger.

Just as Amanda rightly assumes that a lot of pro-lifers have other motivations than protecting life, I assume that the human capacity for bloodlust and glory and victory influences the type of people who think it is OK to murder people from 30,000 feet. So yeah, I think it is warmongering.

Dick Cheney has opposed wars too, you know.

Comment #96: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:43 PM

If they are working, making money on the coast, they can absorb the cost of insurance. Indeed, the cost of that insurance SHOULD be priced into their economic activities.

If they CANNOT afford the cost of the insurance, then that would indicate that their activities are in fact being subsidized by FEMA disaster relief, which means that fewer of them should be living there.
Comment #82: Dilan Esper on 08/29 at 03:19 PM

Wow, you just recapped my option 3 for me in your first graf.

But if fewer of them are living there, we won’t have the food they provide, and can’t go to the shore on vacation.  The ports that are on water “shouldn’t” be there, so, now what?  We ship coal by air?

We subsidize these activities one way or another.  It is economically more feasible to help them out when they run into trouble than it is to eschew using those areas because something bad will happen eventually.  Subsidization is the smart choice.

And we can’t have those activities there without people there, and they need to live somewhere less than two hours away, and a place to raise their kids, and shop, and banks and stores and all that.

Comment #97: oldfeminist  on  08/29  at  03:45 PM

“You have filed for insurance benefits” is a *requirement* not a list of suggestions.  I never said anything about beachfront property FYI.

Again, you don’t understand. FEMA has no REQUIREMENT that you carry insurance. The only REQUIREMENT is that IF YOU HAVE INSURANCE, you have to make a claim. That’s what that language means.

Hundreds of thousands of uninsured New Orleanians received FEMA assistance after Katrina. As did thousands of San Fernando Valley residents after the Northridge Quake.

There is no requirement that you HAVE insurance, only that you make a claim on it if you do. That’s what “filing for insurance benefits” means.

Comment #98: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:45 PM

But if fewer of them are living there, we won’t have the food they provide, and can’t go to the shore on vacation.  The ports that are on water “shouldn’t” be there, so, now what?  We ship coal by air?

1. Food will be more expensive. Which is fine. Just like food produced from interior floodplains is more expensive due to mandatory flood insurance requirements.

2. I really don’t care if humans aren’t able to vacation somewhere. But even if you do care, vacations will still be available. Tourism will just be more expensive. As it should be anyway—because part of the cost of tourism in these places is the cost of all the evacuations and medical care and rebuilding when these things happen.

3. The ports will still be there. Ports make a shitload of money, which means there’s enough money to pay for insurance. It will either be paid by homeowners or by the people who rent properties to workers, and it will end up getting incorporated into the cost of doing business.

Again, you seem to think that NO business ever operates in this country while paying an insurance premium.

We subsidize these activities one way or another.  It is economically more feasible to help them out when they run into trouble than it is to eschew using those areas because something bad will happen eventually.  Subsidization is the smart choice.

No, it’s the second best choice. By subsidizing, we OVER-develop the coasts. Just like by keeping the price of carbon low, we OVER-consume carbon.

And we can’t have those activities there without people there, and they need to live somewhere less than two hours away, and a place to raise their kids, and shop, and banks and stores and all that.

You are like a Republican arguing that if we raise taxes a couple of percentage points, the economy will stop. It won’t. If people can make money operating a port, there will still be ports, and the insurance premiums will get paid. The people who might have to move out are the people who have the cute little home on the beachfront, not the people employed by money-making, essential businesses.

Comment #99: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  03:50 PM

Sure so when FEMA says “All of these must be true”, and under that “You have filed for insurance benefits” is one of those that *MUST* be true, what they really mean is “I don’t give a shit if this is true.”  Thanks for clearing it up.

Comment #100: JoeD80  on  08/29  at  03:53 PM

“we won’t have the food they provide,”

This one is a biggie to me.  Port traffic can be diverted (at whatever cost) to safer areas, and tourism is a luxury.  But the fishermen HAVE to be there, and driving up the cost of their industry is going to be bad not just for them, but for people around the country who now need to pay more for certain foods—assuming those foods are still available at all.

The whole ‘required insurance’ thing would make more sense if we were talking about an untouched landscape—but we’re not.  There are already people there, and this idea would not only hurt them but the effects would be felt in other ways across the country. At this point it’s not prevention, it’s penalty, and most people have done nothing other than be born in those areas to deserve it.

Comment #101: Jayn Newell  on  08/29  at  03:55 PM

Dilan, if you’re seriously implying that the majority of people who live on the coast or in areas that are vulnerable to hurricanes and flooding are rich, I have some friends from Pamlico and Carteret Counties in NC who would take serious issue with your contention, as would I, having lived there for a while.  Plenty of poor people thereabouts, and it isn’t going to be that vastly different in other coastal areas.  Sure, there will be rich people with beachfront properties, but the majority of people, like everywhere else, are going to be poor and are going to be nearly invisible unless you go around where they live.

Comment #102: Atheist Feminazi  on  08/29  at  04:02 PM

And by the way, oldfeminist, there are PLENTY of rich folks who live on the barrier islands of the east and Gulf coasts. There are a bunch of resorts out there and plenty of expensive beachfront property. It ain’t all fishing villages.
Comment #84: Dilan Esper on 08/29 at 03:23 PM

I didn’t say so, though “fishing villages” isn’t what I was thinking of.  Let’s talk Maryland’s Eastern Shore.

The Eastern Shore of Maryland is a patchwork of agricultural land:  poultry, tobacco, dairy, livestock, corn, soybeans, wheat, hay, melons, beans, tomatoes, apples, peaches, and strawberries.  “In 2009, almost 292 million broiler chickens were produced. They brought in $640 million in revenue. This amount accounted for 40 percent of Maryland’s agricultural cash receipts that year.”  Almost all of Maryland’s poultry farms are in flood-susceptible areas, so that’s at least half a billion dollars in revenue in chickens and turkeys alone.

Shipping in Baltimore (similarly in Newport News, VA, Wilmington, DE, and so on).  “‘The Port of Baltimore plays a vital role in Maryland’s economy, generating $3.2 billion in annual revenue and local purchases, as well as supporting 50,700 jobs. It serves over 50 ocean carriers making nearly 1,800 annual visits. The Port’s container capacity increased by 50% with the opening in 1990 of Seagirt Marine Terminal, a 275-acre center for automated cargo-handling.  Total cargo moving through the Port in 2010 amounted to 33 million tons, up from 22.3 million tons in 2009. Moreover, the value of cargo traveling through the Port in 2010 increased to $41.5 billion, up from $30.2 billion in 2009. In 2010, automobile cargo jumped up 44%, and bulk cargo increased by 61%.”

Shellfish and fin fish catches exceed $700 million a year in Maryland.

The owners of expensive beachfront properties on the barrier islands are a tiny fraction of those affected by Irene.  But do go on about all the rich people living on the coast.

Comment #103: oldfeminist  on  08/29  at  04:03 PM

Dilan-  Hahaha I said it’s a good idea to reserve the right to invervene in possible cases of genocide.  Sounds like I am experiencing bloodlust and glory!  And I want to bomb people from the air, it could only be that I want to murder people, not because I think that might decrease net casualties or because I think that if we’re unwilling to have troops on the ground for wars not related to oil after Somalia, then maybe those of us who want to stop genocide will have to settle for that.  No, the only explanation is that I am a warmonger, and support every war by the USA, ever.  My bloodlust and desire for glory knows no bounds. 

But since we’re playing this wacky logic game I’m calling you out for being pro-genocide.  You hate military intervention because you want there to be more genocide.  That’s the only possible explanation.  Oh, and since you said we should be in Afghanistan, that means you are a warmonger too.  I’m also going to assume that you support the candidacy of Ron Paul, probably the most shameful of the three.  How can you live with yourself?

Comment #104: Satanicpanic  on  08/29  at  04:08 PM

#104:

I think that before the US became an empire, the measure of whether you opposed genocide was not whether you wanted the US to bomb.

As for the rest of your post, I don’t think the ONLY explanation is warmongering; simply that the desire for military glory and victories forms a pretty crucial part of human thinking, and to pretend it has nothing to do with why some people favor military solutions to various world problems without looking at the downsides is silly.

Comment #105: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  04:18 PM

Sure so when FEMA says “All of these must be true”, and under that “You have filed for insurance benefits” is one of those that *MUST* be true, what they really mean is “I don’t give a shit if this is true.”  Thanks for clearing it up

They do give a shit. If you HAVE insurance and don’t file for a claim, you aren’t entitled to FEMA benefits. There’s just no mandate that you have insurance.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Comment #106: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  04:19 PM

Port traffic can be diverted (at whatever cost) to safer areas….
Comment #101: Jayn Newell on 08/29 at 03:55 PM

Er um how?  If it’s on the water it’s subject to floods, hurricanes, and the like.  We’re not just unloading canoes, it takes serious machinery to operate a port.

Flying coal around is not cost-effective.  Were we going to rebuild the land bridge from Alaska to Russia?  *Sarah Palin faints*

Comment #107: oldfeminist  on  08/29  at  04:20 PM

The whole ‘required insurance’ thing would make more sense if we were talking about an untouched landscape—but we’re not.  There are already people there, and this idea would not only hurt them but the effects would be felt in other ways across the country. At this point it’s not prevention, it’s penalty, and most people have done nothing other than be born in those areas to deserve it.

The federal flood insurance program, and state auto insurance mandates, were imposed at some point too.

It’s possible to transition from one system to another, you know, rather than throwing up your hands.

Comment #108: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  04:20 PM

#103:

Again, what you fail to show is why the businesses in Baltimore that make a shitload of money won’t be able to afford insurance. Or why mandatory insurance won’t reduce the value of housing there enough that workers will be able to afford it if they own their houses. Or why landlords won’t be able to afford it.

We have a flood insurance system. Start by telling me why that DOESN’T work. Or how it strangles the economies of cities and towns on major riverbanks.

The problem with your position is you assume that the economy of port cities is so fragile that if you imposed even the slightest tax the whole thing would go away. That makes no sense.

Comment #109: Dilan Esper  on  08/29  at  04:23 PM

Oldfeminist: which is why I said ‘safer’, not ‘safe’. The whole east coast up into Canada has the potential to be hit with a hurricane, but the further north you go the less likely it is to actually occur.

Though, I do like the land bridge idea, if we can get Palin to pitch in with her shovel.

Comment #110: Jayn Newell  on  08/29  at  04:25 PM

Again, what you fail to show is why the businesses in Baltimore that make a shitload of money won’t be able to afford insurance. Or why mandatory insurance won’t reduce the value of housing there enough that workers will be able to afford it if they own their houses. Or why landlords won’t be able to afford it.

We have a flood insurance system. Start by telling me why that DOESN’T work. Or how it strangles the economies of cities and towns on major riverbanks.

The problem with your position is you assume that the economy of port cities is so fragile that if you imposed even the slightest tax the whole thing would go away. That makes no sense.
Comment #109: Dilan Esper on 08/29 at 04:23 PM

So if we do have a flood insurance system then what are you complaining about?

I didn’t say flood insurance and taxes would destroy port cities.  Those industries still exist.  It’s the people who work for them that would suffer.  Not the people in the multimillion dollar homes on the barrier islands.

You’re basically saying it’s on the workers to get the companies that employ them to pay them more.  This is not going to happen.  You want a job?  Live poorly in Port City.

Widespread knowledge that “there could be a flood in the next 100 years” will not reduce housing costs or cause you to not work for Fish Inc. because such things are far in the future and cash is hot in your hand right now. 

If rents were higher, yes, they’d have to pay a little more.  But big rental properties just take the gamble that they won’t be flooded out before their investment pays off and they can slack way off on maintenance and get money for nothing until it’s shut down by the state and they can write it off.

And for emergencies that don’t happen every year but will happen, no company will be factoring that into the salary structure because again the employees won’t be asking for a “flood insurance offset.”

I am saying that the best way to manage this is not some nebulous free market system that knows all and sees all and every little atom pays exactly the cost it needs to.  The best way to manage this is to get a little from everyone and use it when and where it’s needed.  Because we all benefit from a deep water port close to the middle of the US, the cost shouldn’t go only on Baltimore but everything this side of the Rockies.

We don’t know exactly who’s going to need what.  We had a fucking earthquake last week along with the fucking hurricane.  Do you think anyone could sanely build that into the salary structure for people living in Mineral, VA?

And note that we already require people in certain areas to buy flood insurance when they buy a house, check the FEMA site.  I’m only a block away from such an area (and they get flooded and I don’t).  But if Irene had been as bad as they thought it might be, I could well have been flooded.

Comment #111: oldfeminist  on  08/29  at  04:48 PM

@ Dilan Esper

Let’s see how much of this post you don’t respond to as well.

This is faulty reasoning. “Every place could face a disaster” is true. “Every place is equally likely to face a disaster” is false.

Do you even watch what happens every year to the rest of the country or just Malibu and some islands? Do you know there are disasters that have been playing out for years across huge swatches of the country, like droughts? There is no safe place.

And the whole point of pricing schemes is to reduce the level of activities that are costly. Pricing people out of disaster prone areas is no more immoral than pricing people out of buying so much carbon. In both cases, you hurt some poor people, but in both cases, the vast majority of the benefits of an untaxed system go to the wealthy.

Wow, and who proposed that the rich be taxed? You keep ignoring this point I made.

<blockquoteThere is no such thing as a free lunch.</blockquote>

Yeah, a tax system is a free lunch. /sarcasm

Offering free insurance to everyone who lives in the most dangerous areas means more coastal development, which means more people get killed or injured in every disaster and more FEMA payouts (many of which will go to people who could have afforded insurance) are made.

Here’s a proposal I wanted to suggest earlier. You want to kick people out and prevent the population from growing by punishing the people who live in areas you think they’re stupid for living in, of course this burden will be born not by the rich but the poor and workers, unless of course you only give a shit about maybe 3% of the population developing and specifically target them as“people employed by money-making, essential businesses.” would be the majority of people populating an area, unless “essential business” means something more elitist.

But my proposal is that people get assistance to move out of a disaster prone area if they wish, rather than be economically forced to out and uproot themselves from every tie they have with no help other than “get out and fuck you.” I believe that if the government wants people to do something economically difficult, then the government should help out. Otherwise people are to what; sell a home no-one wants to buy? Buy a house or move into an apartment in an area that is now in demand and thus more expensive? Quit their job and hope they can find a job, in this economy?

If that is what you favor, fine, but let’s be clear—THAT is what you favor. Not some magical world where the only people who live on the coasts are people who have to work there and we socialize the risk of all the disasters and bear that as a cost of human progress.

This doesn’t make any sense in context to what I’ve been saying.

I would also like you to define what you think “human economic progress” so I can better understand your ideology.

That’s not how economics works. Lower the cost of something and you get more of it, and more development in disaster prone areas = more lives lost, and more rebuilding costs. There is no way to escape that problem without pricing in the cost of insurance.

You are not a very imaginative person if you think there is only one solution. I’ve offered mine, more taxes to help anyone recover from a disaster and assistance to move out of disaster prone areas to those who want to move away. Perceive, instead of economic punishment and coercion, I’d rather have people treated as the intelligent human beings they are and given the chance to make their own choices and be empowered by the system that is supposed to serve them.

Comment #112: R.T.  on  08/29  at  05:45 PM

Ugh, sorry for the ableist slips I made, like “watch” and “see.”

Comment #113: R.T.  on  08/29  at  05:48 PM

Idiosynchronic, way back at # 10?

How the hell did you end up in Fairfield? I didn’t even know normal people lived there.

Comment #114: alysia  on  08/29  at  07:43 PM

Is there any reason that we should believe any of Ron Paul’s ostensible isolationist, anti-drug-war slightly pro-civil-liberties positions? Sure, he makes speeches, but has he ever been effective in moving actual policy or legislation on any of these issues? Or does the fact that he says these things as a republican simply provide cover to the rest of the party he caucuses with?

Comment #115: paul  on  08/29  at  09:39 PM

I see Resident Troll is back.

Why don’t you use your middle initial, R.T.?  Is “idiot” not your middle name?

Comment #116: Ms Kate  on  08/29  at  11:18 PM

You might be interested to know that it’s an empirical fact that libertarians are less empathetic than the general population.

Comment #117: SallyStrange  on  08/29  at  11:40 PM

“...if abortion is truly the most sacred opportunity this country can offer anyone, rest assured devolving the issue to the states won’t make it illegal except in places where people democratically decide they don’t want it. That is, those who have a different definition of rights will decide for themselves that they don’t want abortion. NY and Mass can keep handing out free taxpayer-funded abortion coupons on the sidewalk if the voters want it that way.”

Yes, and all the women who are unlucky enough to live in areas where people decide to outlaw abortion will suffer for it. Except the rich Republican ladies who actually voted against abortion, ‘cause they can just travel out-of-state when their own principles become to inconvenient for them personally.

“Paul is a racist? Let’s check the scoreboard on that one: Number of racist illustrations in Ron Paul’s 2008 book - 0. Number of racist illustrations in Amanda’s 2008 book - what, 15 or so? But you didn’t draw those! Really? Well who did, and why are they in your book then? Do you see how this works?”

Oh, please. Internalized racism, white privilege and getting your book filled with racist illustrations you didn’t approve is one thing. But openly calling for racist policies and invoking racial stereotypes that you obviously sincerely believe is quite another.

Comment #118: Treefinger  on  08/30  at  06:59 AM

Satanicpanic @ 85: we are still in Korea, including upgrading military infrastructure right now.

Comment #119: helen w. h.  on  08/30  at  08:17 AM

Sally #117:

That’s not a bug, it’s a feature. They think everyone is like them.

Comment #120: BrianX  on  08/30  at  08:09 PM

“Do you have to buy hurricane insurance if you build your mansion on the oceanfront, or do you wait till it’s blown away and they expect the government to bail you out?”

Oceanfront?  Vermont just got decimated by a hurricane (by then a tropical storm) and they are nowhere near the oceanfront.

We’re all in this together.

Comment #121: maribelle  on  09/01  at  05:36 PM

I wrote an article on the Iowa straw poll that was critical of Ron Paul, particularly on abortion and the racism. Of course, the Paulbots crawled out of the woodwork, to tell me that I must support war crimes for preferring Obama to Ron Paul. They really do seem to think that the war in Iraq, the Patriot Act and the drug war are the only three issues.

One of them said that if Roe v. Wade was overturned and some states banned abortion, it was ok because women could just move. And also pulled the “evolution is ‘just’ a theory” bullshit. I decided there was no point in arguing because that level of stupidity needs no explanation.

My favorite Paulbot argument is when they try to say that he didn’t write the racist articles, he just printed them in his newsletter. Like, oh, that’s totally okay and totally proves he’s not a racist…

Anyway, Amanda, do you have a link to where he said he’d support a constitutional amendment banning abortion? I didn’t know about that but would love to include it next time I’m dealing with a Paulbot!

Comment #122: Erda  on  09/04  at  04:14 AM

Also, the slightly-less-stupid Paulbot joined the site just to get into it on that article and also to comment on another one to say that the end of DADT isn’t a cause worth celebrating, because war is bad.

Comment #123: Erda  on  09/04  at  04:15 AM

Anyway, is it just me or do Republicans sound more like Ebenezer Scrooge every day? “If they’re going to die, they’d better do it, and decrease the surplus population.”

Comment #124: Erda  on  09/04  at  05:26 AM
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