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Next entry: Flying monkeys: why they suck, and why they must be opposed Previous entry: Right wing temper tantrums, distilled

Ron Paul: The Manic Pixie Dream Candidate

There's a temptation for progressives to entertain Ron Paul as a serious alternative to Obama, primarily because Ron Paul is very, very serious about getting rid of a couple of major federal programs that progressives tend to hate: namely, our War on Some People's Terror and our War on Some People Who Use Some Drugs.

The problem, as Ben Adler points out, is that Ron Paul's motivation for opposing these programs has nothing to do with the progressive motivation for opposing them. Most charitably, Paul just cares about limiting federal power. His administration would care little about the impact of federal policies on various populations; it would only care that the government pursued those programs at all. This means that the end of the War on Drugs would come alongside a push to end Medicare and Social Security, a push to end all forms of social welfare, a push to end everything designed to ameliorate the effects of systemic discrimination over past decades and centuries.

Ron Paul doesn't care about equality or social progress, he's just an adorable shrunken grump who has an ideological opposition to the government doing most anything. That opposition has certain incidental benefits, and it's hard not to think of him as a useful tool in achieving long-term political goals.

Less charitably (and, I think, more honestly), Ron Paul by and large only gives a shit about maximizing the freedom of white men. The War on Drugs is problematic not because it helps incarcerate truly ridiculous numbers of young black and Hispanic men, it's problematic because white guys deserve a doobie or some blow after work. The War on Terror is an outward extension of American resources and manpower, but the person whose freedom we care about isn't the little girl disfigured by a drone or the imam whose mosque was destroyed. It's the white guy who works long, hard hours to pay for that war, who would much rather be spending his money on other things, like gold bricks or gold boullion or ads trying to get people to buy his stock of gold.

What that ultimately means, though, is that the shining moments of a Paul presidency would be largely flash. Paul's libertarianism would mean an end to the War on Drugs, but it would also mean an end to enforcement of the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act, a push toward a future of rampant Tentherism where a state's discriminatory action would be met with a shrug and a casual bon mot about the Fed. 

The appeal of Ron Paul is that he comes off as truly principled. Even when his policies may achieve a goal of racial equalization that he would seem to be otherwise opposed to, you're still assured that he'll advocate for those policies.

That allure, however, masks the dirty secret of his appeal to progressives: we're so sure that he'll pursue the policies that we like, we might be willing to compromise on the other stuff. The problem is, that other stuff is the very core of progressivism. The scant victories a Paul presidency promises are meaningless when they're the curtain hiding the abyss.

Unless, of course, you have a whole lot of gold. At that point, I can't really blame you.

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Posted by Jesse Taylor on 05:28 PM • (119) Comments

Jesse,

I think Paul represents the protest vote.  He is the de facto person to vote for when you want “Note of the Above” especially for people who are opposed to the military interventionism.  Paul is the number 1 recipient of political donations from military.

I think most people reject Paul’s hair brained ideas about ending the Fed and immediately cutting 1 trillion of spending..  they just like his anti interventionsism and his opposition to the war on drugs.  Voting for Paul is like giving the middle finger to the political establishment.

You are right though there is nothing progressive about Paul.  His view of the constitution and republic is an early 19th century constitutionalism.

Comment #1: Brian7  on  12/27  at  07:05 PM

Voting for Paul is like giving the middle finger to the political establishment.

Some of what you say is true, but it’s also wrapped up in a whole lot of political naiveté. The vast majority of folks I know who “like” Ron Paul - that is, they’re the folks you’re talking about, not his rabid fans that are either in lockstep with his Bircherite ideas, racism, fundamentalist Christianiasm, homophobia, and his over all idea that the age of robber barons was really groovy or simple don’t care whether or not he’s a racist if it means lower taxes - are horrified once they actually do some research on the guy past what his press people put out (“Freedom! Liberty! Weed!”) and find out how abso-fucking-lutely scary the guy is and some of the wacky legislation he’s passed. I’ve notcied, and this by no means scientific, they this sort of naive Paul supporter is generally the same person who dismisses most non-election-year political discussion with “Ahhh, they’re all the same.”

Comment #2: Matt T.  on  12/27  at  07:52 PM

It occurred to me a few weeks ago, when Obama was insisting that the exception for American citizens be excised from the military budget bill (he wanted the right to ‘indefinitely detain’ anyone, anytime, anywhere) - that nation-states in general, and the ‘three branches’ in particular…

...they really don’t ‘do’ self abnegation.

The whole ‘checks and balances’ notion means other branches must step in to limit executive power. If Paul were elected - chances of which are practically 0% - even if he could introduce legislation ending the drug war, congress would still have to pass it. But more importantly, if he tried to claim the president wasn’t that powerful - the next prexy could just step in and go - oh well - we’re back to normal now!

A self limiting president of even two terms would not establish some kind of new precedent - it would go AGAINST precedent.

Comment #3: KingElvis  on  12/27  at  08:03 PM

  I think that Ron Paul would be a horrible president but I disagree with the analysis that liberals and progressives should only support politicians that support liberal/progressive causes for liberal/progressive reasons. Nobody really has the luxury in politics, especially in the Madisonian system, which requires more than a little horse trading to get things done. Even in proportional representation parliamentary democracy, you really can’t always support the most noble candidate because horse trading is necessary to form the necessary governing coalitions. The real reasons that liberals and progressives should not support Ron Paul is that for the few good ideas he has, he has a lot of other ideas that are at best wacky and at worse horribly evil. Liberals and progressive would have to accept Ron Paul’s horribly evil or wacky ideas with his few good ideas. Plus, I’m pretty sure that Ron Paul would be okay with the War on Drugs if it was waged at the state and local level rather than the federal level.

  The real importance with Ron Paul is that he symbolizes a great political dilemma for liberals and progressives, what Robert Farley of Lawyers, Guns, and Money refers to as the conflict between the activist state and civil liberties. Generally, liberals and progressives want a state that provides education, universal healthcare, housing, and other social programs to people and we also want a state that actively participates in the economy. At the same time, we want a state that respects civil liberties as outlined in the Bill of Rights. The problem is that at times there is a severe conflict between the two things we want from the state. An activist state, one that could intervene in the economy and society, is also one that could easily violate civil liberties. Since my inclination is towards social democracy, I’m okay with this as long as it doesn’t get to totalitarian. Others thing we can have both but I’m skeptical.

Comment #4: Lee  on  12/27  at  08:36 PM

I wonder what would happen if by some “miracle” (I mean an evil miracle, Satanic intervention?) Ron Paul became president, I really do wonder what would happen. Dude literally might not sign a budget if it doesn’t have all the cuts he wants, for both social spending and military spending, a budget that is literally impossible for Democrats and Republicans in Congress to pass, I imagine he would be impeached pretty quickly for abject refusal to carry out the duties of his office.

Comment #5: typist  on  12/27  at  08:46 PM

An activist state, one that could intervene in the economy and society, is also one that could easily violate civil liberties.

But a liberal state doesn’t do so, so there is no conflict. Besides, there is nothing stopping a “small government” from waking up one day and deciding it’s going to start violating everyone’s civil liberties. But at least with the liberal activist government, society is at least better fed and more prosperous.

Comment #6: Tyro  on  12/27  at  08:55 PM

In a “small government” state, the oppression is handled with perfect market efficiency by private militias.

Comment #7: typist  on  12/27  at  08:57 PM

OT: it’s a little weird to be seeing all the pro life alliance ads on this site lately.

Comment #8: slingshot  on  12/27  at  09:09 PM

I wonder if he even wants to eliminate the drug laws, or just have the states enforce it? Also, no matter what the prez wants, he doesn’t make the laws anyway.

Comment #9: slingshot  on  12/27  at  09:13 PM

“Also, no matter what the prez wants, he doesn’t make the laws anyway” Someone should tell that to all the Obama haters.

Comment #10: typist  on  12/27  at  09:18 PM

  Tyro: No, I think that you are wrong. If the state is going to intervene in society and economics than there are going to be interventions that a times conflict with civil liberties. Sometimes the conflicts would be great and sometimes not so great. Universal healthcare is not inconsistent with the War on Drugs if the mass of the electorate views drugs as being inherently non-healthy and something to be eliminated from society. Even Sweden, the paragon of social democracy, has intervened in civil liberties in ways that could make American liberals and progressives cringe in the name of social activism.

Comment #11: Lee  on  12/27  at  09:18 PM

  Or to use a better example, most of us on this site are probably supportive of the idea that city governments should provide parks and other open spaces for the public to play and relax in. Most of us are also probably supporters of the right to free speech and the right to protest. Many of the smaller public parks and squares are naturally popular venues for protests, as the Occupy Movement recently demonstrated. You can fit a lot of people in the space, leading to great crowded visuals, and they are centrally located. How long should protestors be allowed to use public parks and squares for their protest at the expense of the part of the public that wants to use them for recreational purposes. Should a city favor the protestors over the public in the name of free speech or favor those that want to use the parks as public space? How should a city deal with protestors that refuse to move?

Comment #12: Lee  on  12/27  at  09:25 PM

This is nice, but by the same logic, there’s no way any Progressive should support Obama.

Comment #13: Punditus Maximus  on  12/27  at  09:28 PM

@typist: you’re right, the President had veto powers, the power to pardon, and the power to appoint the head of the Department of Justice surgically removed and handed to the nearest sadistic Republican.

Comment #14: Punditus Maximus  on  12/27  at  09:29 PM

Here’s what I wrote recently about Ron Paul.  I think it’s relevant here.

If Ron Paul actually became the front running candidate for President in the Republican Party, it would certainly raise the intellectual level of debate, and it would make the debates between the two parties significantly more interesting, certainly for me.

However, I do not know whether I actually wish for this to happen. On a very few issues, Ron Paul actually stands to the left of Obama, but on most issues, he stands far to the right. I am pleased that Ron Paul recognizes the wastefulness of our government’s military misadventures, but I am most displeased that he seems to regard money spent on healthcare as equally wasteful. I cannot fathom the cold-blooded ideological rigidity that equates spending money to kill people with spending money to save lives and rejects both types of spending as equally wrong, and for the same, purely ideological reason - because it’s the government that’s spending the money.

Ron Paul’s anti-government ideology offers no reason to oppose the privatization of war, which unfortunately has already begun, and which I find absolutely alarming. We should not mistake Paul’s “radical” stance on our country’s recent wars for pacifism. It is only another corollary of the fundamental, categorical premise that everything the government does is bad.

Ron Paul is like any other Republican, except that his fundamentalism is of a more consistent and secular kind.

Comment #15: JakobFabian01  on  12/27  at  10:12 PM

I 100% support Ron Paul for the Republican nomination.

Actual President, fuck no I’m not insane.

Comment #16: Dan  on  12/27  at  10:24 PM

There are liberals who support Ron Paul?

Comment #17: Ape Man  on  12/27  at  10:55 PM

If Paul were elected - chances of which are practically 0%

I agree with all of the arguments against Ron Paul, but I just can’t find myself concerned enough to care. He’s not going to be the GOP nominee - Fox News and the wingnut punditocracy will make sure of that. Plus, the dude is almost 80. Yes, that matters to voters, quite a bit.

It does bother me somewhat that the depth of understanding among so many politically naive people goes only as far as thinking of Ron Paul as the anti-war pro-drug legalization Republican. But it is what it is. In about five weeks, when it’s mathematically evident that the GOP nominee won’t be the batshit crazy little Congressman from Texas, most people will be saying “Ron who?”

Comment #18: DTGslu2K  on  12/27  at  10:59 PM

There are liberals who support Ron Paul?

Alas there are. I know a gay CWA Union member who has a Ron Paul bumper sticker. Yeah, Ron Paul might get you a chance at legal weed (or not, state laws might become more oppressive in a Paulist America) but I think things might become worse for him and his boyfriend.

My grandmother’s boyfriend was good friends with Ron Paul back in the seventies. Saw Ron Paul once Back during his first failed congressional run when I was a kid. Dude is a total jerkass. I didn’t need to read quotes from his newsletter about hip-hop listening animals traveling out to the suburbs to carjack white folks to know this.

Sad thing is, the most awesome beach in Texas is Paul’s district. It’s the “secret” beach people who live in beach towns drive to to get away from the crowds. I will not tell you where it is.

Comment #19: Bacopa  on  12/27  at  11:23 PM

  If Ron Paul wins the Republican nomination, which is highly unlikely, we might witness a repeat of the 1964 Johnson-Goldwater election. Obama could still use most of the same slogans that were used against Goldwater. “In your guts, you know he’s nuts”.

Comment #20: Lee  on  12/27  at  11:28 PM

You left off the lunatic rantings coming out about Paul’s belief in a world conspiracy to merge the USA, Canada, and Mexico.

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/12/what-ron-paul-believes.php?ref=fpa

And yet, I have, yes, seen commenters on progressive political blogs tout all things Paul.

Comment #21: judybrowni  on  12/28  at  12:08 AM

A friend of mine put it very well. “I have no tolerance for anyone who places their right to get high over another person’s right to eat.”

Comment #22: typist  on  12/28  at  12:21 AM

Lee, the example you gave does not indicate that a Ron Paul small-government society would be more free in terms of civil liberties than the liberal government society. Both types of society take a similar view to civil liberties: making a decision to protect them until such a time as they turn over and decide it’s necessary to pass laws that limit them. The size of the government does not actually make a difference, and the liberal interventionist government doesn’t inherently violate more civil liberties than the Ron Paul libertopia nor does it make it easier to violate those civil liberties.

Comment #23: Tyro  on  12/28  at  12:27 AM

I’m with Dan above. There’s no Democratic primary this year, so what’s the harm in monkeywrenching the Republican primary for an old, racist crank who’s acceptable on two issues? Is Mittens enough less crazy we should hope for him just in case? I’m not sure.

You’ll get some annoying mailers for a year or so, but the GOP wasting its cash on sending those to me rather than someone they might convince is not such a bad thing.

Comment #24: witless chum  on  12/28  at  01:48 AM

Democrats today, like Republicans, are horrible on issues of war & peace and civil liberties.  It’s understandable, if unfortunate, that out of desperation some progressives are willing to embrace a reactionay crank like Paul who happens to be better on these issues than the vast majority of others in both the major parties (though the fact that he is says much more about those parties than about Paul).

@Lee:  Gotta disagree with the essentially libertarian frame that either we accept a state that can do everything or we have a state that can do nothing.  It’s perfectly possible for the government to provide cradle-to-grave social welfare, while respecting the Fourth Amendment, and foreswearing imperialism.  The fact that neither the Democratic nor the Republican party supports any of these things is why people make the mistake of imagining that someone like Paul is the solution.

None of the candidates running for President is anything close to the solution. Obama remains the least evil (alas).  He’s still got my incredibly unenthusiastic vote.

Comment #25: Ben Alpers  on  12/28  at  02:35 AM

@Ben Alpers: Sadly, they’re pretty shitty about social programs, worker’s rights, and public education too. Those are part of the liberal/progressive platform as well. Democrats, I mean. Republicans always were.

@typist: Wow. Ten whole comments before a cultist whined about haters. Y’all are slipping.

Comment #26: JThompson  on  12/28  at  02:41 AM

I pretty much believe enough people believe in herd mentality, and choose a candidate based upon what candidate is said is the most popular, not which is best.

Comment #27: Crissa  on  12/28  at  02:56 AM

No, I think that you are wrong. If the state is going to intervene in society and economics than there are going to be interventions that a times conflict with civil liberties. Sometimes the conflicts would be great and sometimes not so great. Universal healthcare is not inconsistent with the War on Drugs if the mass of the electorate views drugs as being inherently non-healthy and something to be eliminated from society.

We as Americans were taught a disturbingly different take on how civil liberties work.  It more so has to do with our protestant past than anything.  It relies strictly on individual rights and tends to ignore collective ones.  This is where your conflict arises.  Your personal freedom to snort coke is fine until it infringes on another ability to not be killed by a coked up fiend.  I’m not making any argument about drugs and violence but society by nature of it is a compromise.  Ron Paul and his supposedly “liberal” ideas are really just upper-middle class white whining agendas.  “Boo hoo! I can’t smoke my pot!” is not a political agenda I care to listen to.  It simply isn’t a real liberal agenda, it’s a side-issue that leftists have taken up due to the prevalence of it in white middle-class society.  Paul just wants to exploit that aspect.

Comment #28: Xeranar  on  12/28  at  03:08 AM

Well the real difference is between positive and negative freedom. Generally speaking progressives/liberals are in favor of positive freedom…we should be free to do X and Y. Conservatives and Libertarians are generally in favor of negative freedom…Government should not be allowed to intrude on X and Y.

They seem similar but in the end they’re too different. Sometimes they match up..in the case of Paul’s more popular stances, however, it doesn’t really remove the conflict, it just hides it. Where the conflict comes out, is situations and issues where people can actively remove the freedom of others. Where do you draw the line?

The worst case extreme scenario I can give, which I have no reason to think Paul would support, however it WOULD be in line with Libertarian principles, would be to privatize the war on drugs and pay for it via seizure.

Comment #29: Karmakin  on  12/28  at  03:33 AM

@typist: Wow. Ten whole comments before a cultist whined about haters. Y’all are slipping.

I’m not a cultist, I’m just miserable about a return to Republican rule of both Congress and the White House. I perceive real differences between the parties that quite a few people don’t. Guess I must be delusional.

Comment #30: typist  on  12/28  at  03:37 AM

@typist: there are real differences, but one thing the Obama Presidency has made clear is that neither Party is up to facing the basic challenges facing the nation.  The Republicans want to burn everything down, it’s true.  But the Dems basically want to let them.

Comment #31: Punditus Maximus  on  12/28  at  07:54 AM

  Ben Alpers: I am not stating that the libertarian frame is correct. What I am saying is that there are times when an activist government will conflict with a government that strongly supports civil liberties. Not to the extent that the libertarians envision but there will be disconnect at times between the two mandates.

Comment #32: Lee  on  12/28  at  10:02 AM

@Comment #32: Libertarian on 12/28 at 09:44 AM

Jesse, if you haven’t bought gold yet, even as a hedge, then you’re a dope.  Why would anyone listen to anything you say about economics?  You shoulda stocked up when gold was at $400 like the rest of us ... dummies.

So, you’re convinced that the value of gold will continue to rise, as it has for the past ten years? If so, why not buy now?

Comment #33: atheist  on  12/28  at  10:18 AM

Why on Earth would Obama run a high-minded, issue-oriented campaign against Ron Paul in the unlikely event that Paul is the Republican nominee? It’s not like he would need to do so in order to completely destroy him in the polls.

Comment #34: pillsy  on  12/28  at  10:19 AM

This is why you don’t vote for Ron Paul, Libertarian.

Comment #35: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/28  at  10:21 AM

Personal freedoms. Unless you have a uterus. Ron Paul 2012.

This is the single biggest thing for me - I am not ok with a guy who is totally ok with letting OTHERS get between me and my body. And quite frankly, folks can spout their Ron Paul praises till the sky falls, I’m not convinced he wouldn’t enact a federal ban - he’s voted in favor of partial birth abortion bans twice and sponsored the Sanctity of Life Act - things that restrict on a federal level. So he can talk about how he thinks abortion’s best handled at the state level all he wants, his actions DON’T in fact show he’s got a total hands off approach. Not to mention, even if he did let states handle abortion, a state government is still a government and if that government wants to infringe on my body it’s still wrong. Different approach, same results. Clever, I’ll give him that. Ron Paul is just another GOP asshole riding in the clown car who talks a slightly better talk but still walks the same, shitty (sometimes shittier) walk. Thanks, but no thanks.

Comment #36: LaylaBug  on  12/28  at  10:30 AM

Lee: I think there will be conflicts between any realistic set of government goals (including the libertarian dream of a “Night Watchman State”), and that the ones that provide the most potential and impetus for abuse are the basic ones of law enforcement and maintaining the state monopoly on the use of force. I don’t see much real-world evidence that a minimal state does a better job on civil liberties than a modern social democracy.

Comment #37: pillsy  on  12/28  at  10:32 AM

This, Xeranar, is not the case:

Ron Paul and his supposedly “liberal” ideas are really just upper-middle class white whining agendas.  “Boo hoo! I can’t smoke my pot!” is not a political agenda I care to listen to.  It simply isn’t a real liberal agenda, it’s a side-issue that leftists have taken up due to the prevalence of it in white middle-class society.  Paul just wants to exploit that aspect.

I think you’re totally wrong. I don’t understand how you can be a leftist and not be opposed the War on Some Classes of People Who Use Some Drugs. You’ve got a government policy that disproportionally hurts the poor and members of minority groups. And leads to the deaths of thousands of people in other countries. All because Americans love cocaine, but want to pretend like we don’t. We played this movie before and sucked then. Running a drug war after you ran prohibition is liking paying to see Transformers 2. Anyone who’s against stupidity should be against it, fuck what the rest of your politics are.

You’re damn right I’m against it and I don’t even like weed.

If I thought President Paul could put a stop to that, (the two other branches of government are too enmeshed in the drug war for a president to do much good.) I’d have a good hard think about it, trying to balance the amount of human misery created by the drug war against the amount that Ron Paul as president would create. I think I’d still say no, but I’d have to think about it.

Comment #38: witless chum  on  12/28  at  10:43 AM

@JThompson: I certainly didn’t mean to suggest that war & peace and civil liberties are the only areas in which progressives might find today’s Democratic Party wanting.  But nobody, as far as I know, supports Ron Paul because they think he’d save public education.

@Lee: There’s no reason whatsoever that an activist government cannot have a strong commitment to civil liberties.  Governments can be constrained in some areas but empowered in others.  For example, our Constitution makes it dramatically easier for our federal government to increase income taxes, establish national health insurance, or invade another country than to impose formal, federal racial apartheid or establish evangelical Christianity as an official religion.  Now, of course, constitutions can change.  And governments can, and have, ignored constitutional provisions.  Theoretically, the only way to 100% guarantee that a state won’t aggregate a particular power to itself is to have no state at all.  But practically speaking, actual states operate within constraints and those constraints can vary enormously.

Comment #39: Ben Alpers  on  12/28  at  10:44 AM

@ Dark Avenger - wow, that letter has all kinds of crazy in it.  Any idea what the date is on that (“Monday Morning” is so vague)?

@LaylaBug - Going a bit OT and onto the soapbox here, but can we put the phrase “partial birth abortion” out to pasture? It’s a fabricated political term, not a medical one, as the AMA and ACOG have repeatedly rejected it.  Then-Congressman Canady made it up with the help of a lobbyist to get his anti-choice bill passed in 1995.  (He probably wanted to use “infanticide,” but that’s more blatantly inaccurate and would have been easily challenged.)  The surgical procedure is extremely rare—performed in 0.17% of the US’s 1 million plus abortion, and there’s no birth/delivery aspect to it at all. “Mid- or late-term abortion” is medically accurate, and it helps deflate the incendiary anti-choice language.

Comment #40: Pandagoner  on  12/28  at  11:12 AM

@Comment #36: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 12/28 at 10:21 AM

This is why you don’t vote for Ron Paul, Libertarian.

That is some awesome stuff, thanks!

We’ve seen a lot of financial tyrannies from Washington in this century. This one could take the cake. And popping out of the cake, with a big Surprise!, will be an IRS agent with an AK-47.

Comment #41: atheist  on  12/28  at  11:14 AM

This is the Reuters article that I found associated with it:

“EXTRAORDINARY SOURCES”

The letter promoting Paul’s newsletters was written about 1993. It was during a period in which Paul - who left Congress in 1985 after serving about eight years - returned to Washington after a decade’s absence.

(For a PDF of the solicitation letter see link)

The letter was provided to Reuters by James Kirchick, a contributing editor for The New Republic magazine. He says he found the letter in archives of political literature maintained by the University of Kansas and the Wisconsin Historical Society.

Early in the 2008 presidential campaign - in which Paul was a candidate - Kirchick published an article in The New Republic in which he described Paul as “not the plain-speaking antiwar activist his supporters believe they are backing - but rather a member in good standing of some of the oldest and ugliest traditions in American politics.”

The letter promoting Paul’s newsletters claims that Paul - through what he describes as a network of “extraordinary sources” in Congress, the White House, the Treasury and Justice departments, the Federal Reserve and the Internal Revenue Service - had acquired unique insider information that would his subscribers to “neutralize” the plans of “powerbrokers.”

Paul’s letter went on to describe various plots and schemes that he had “unmasked,” including a “plot for world government, world money and world central banking.” He also claimed to have exposed a plan by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) to “suspend the Constitution” in a falsely declared national emergency.

Despite being “told not to talk,” Paul wrote that his newsletters also “laid bare” the “Israeli lobby, which plays Congress like a cheap harmonica,” and a “federal-homosexual cover-up on AIDS.”

Paul claimed that his “training as a physician” helped him “see through” this alleged cover-up.

Paul also suggested that a planned U.S. currency with new notes designed to curb counterfeiting and money laundering would result in the distribution of “totalitarian bills” that “were tinted pink and blue and brown, and blighted with holograms, diffraction gratings, metal and plastic threads and chemical alarms.”

Paul said the money was designed to allow authorities to “keep track of American cash and American citizens.”

He urged the letter’s readers to send in $99, which would buy subscriptions to his monthly political and investment newsletters, a copy of his book “Surviving the New Money,” an investment manual and access to the “unlisted phone number of my Financial Hotline for fast breaking news.”

Tell me that’s a sane view of politics, libertarian.

Comment #42: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/28  at  11:45 AM

@Pandagoner:

Any idea what the date is on that (“Monday Morning” is so vague)?

I gather that’s one of Dr. Paul’s early-nineties screeds.  It refers to “President Bush” but I think it means the elder.  And it has this phrase:

Each month I give you the facts and analysis—and specific recommendations—that you need to protect yourself, and dramatically increase your wealth, in the spastic economy of the 1990s.

Comment #43: Cris (without an H)  on  12/28  at  11:51 AM


  For the last time, I am not saying that one has to either choose between an activist state and a libertarian state. What I am saying is that an activist state a state committed to civil liberties will at times conflicted with each other. An activist state will at times have to intrude into the lives of its citizens as individuals or groups to promote the social welfare of society as a whole or at least a sub-group in society. On this form most of us regard, improving the public health and providing health care to be a worthy state goal. Part of this is improving people’s eating habits or at least pointing out the dangers of bad eating habits to them like the way that smoking was more or less eliminated from society, which required a combination of state and non-state action. It didn’t require a massive violation but it did require at least some state intrusion into the private lives of the citizens.

    Again, its not an either/or but I don’t think we can have our cake and eat it to. I don’t think that a social welfare/activist state is going to be a massive tyranny that intrudes into the minute lives of citizens. None of the other social welfare states are like that. However, an activist/social welfare state/environmental state does require some intrusion into the lives of how people live. It does so in France, in the Scandanavian countries, and elsewhere.

    I suppose it depends on how you define civil liberties. If you believe that civil liberties consists of basically whats in the Bill of Rights than you can probably have a decent welfare state and and civil liberties. If you have a more expansive view of civil liberties that includes any and all lifestyle choices than probably not.

Comment #44: Lee  on  12/28  at  11:51 AM

@Comment #43: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 12/28 at 11:45 AM

The Israeli lobby part’s true. The rest is crap, of course.

Comment #45: atheist  on  12/28  at  12:00 PM

Libertarian sounds a little off-kilter this morning. I know he’s generally treated as a troll here, but he’s usually a little more coherent. Anyway, regarding this bit:

He is for freedom, liberty, small gov’t etc, and you are not.

That sounds like a slap, but it’s actually correct, in context.  Libertarians are for freedom—the freedom to pour industrial waste into rivers, to provide dangerous working conditions, to sell adulterated goods with toxic side effects. They’re for liberty—liberty from well-maintained public spaces and functional social services. And they’re for small government: not one that does very little, but one that works actively in the interest of a select few. I’m not for those particular forms of freedom, liberty, and small government. Why are you?

Libertarians are tools. And I’ll even grant that Anarchists are tools.  Anybody who thinks that you can remove a formal social order and not have it instantly replaced with the coercion of the strong over the powerless is fooling themselves.

Comment #46: Cris (without an H)  on  12/28  at  12:04 PM

atheist, I consider what Ron Paul says about the War On Some Drugs to be true, but that doesn’t mean I buy into all the other other crap he’s wrong about, even if he’s also correct about the Israeli lobby in America.

It didn’t require a massive violation but it did require at least some state intrusion into the private lives of the citizens.

How so?  To give an example from American history, how did putting warnings on packs of cigarettes, or removing ads from TV, intrude into the private lives of citizens?

Unless you can give a concrete illustration from France, Germany,  or the Scandinavian countries demonstrating your point,  I have to say you’re full of hot air.

Comment #47: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/28  at  12:21 PM

@Pandagoner - my apologies, I was only using the phrase because it’s what it was called when voted upon - I too am not a fan of calling it that however, because, as you say, it confers to the anti-choice rhetoric - I will endeavor to use the more medically accurate and less anti-choicey name in the future.

@Chris, #47, “Anybody who thinks that you can remove a formal social order and not have it instantly replaced with the coercion of the strong over the powerless is fooling themselves.” Bingo.

Comment #48: LaylaBug  on  12/28  at  12:51 PM

  No athiest and Dark Avenger, Ron Paul isn’t right about the Israeli lobby. The Israeli lobby argument is pure crap, just complete Jew-hating shit. Its the old Jews have disproportional impact, secret conspiracy to control the world in a more sophisticated gloss.

Comment #49: Lee  on  12/28  at  01:19 PM

Dark Avenger @ 48:

how did putting warnings on packs of cigarettes, or removing ads from TV, intrude into the private lives of citizens?

I took that part of Lee’s comment to refer to legislation banning smoking in public places.  The warnings and advertising restrictions aren’t an intrusion into private life, but the final step of disallowing smoking in restaurants definitely required a positive enforceable restriction on behavior.

Comment #50: Cris (without an H)  on  12/28  at  01:22 PM

Cris @ 44 - There was just so much batshittery packed in there, it pushed the date out of my memory.  Scary thing is, as time passes the heat of people’s anger boils their brains down to its purest essence. Multiply Paul’s screed by at least 20 years of simmering and maybe we’re almost accurate about what’s really going on in his head.  His ghostwriters now are probably dialing it back considerably.

LaylaBug @49.  Thanks.  That helps change the dialog.  <gets off soapbox>

Comment #51: Pandagoner  on  12/28  at  01:53 PM

  You know who else you’re giving the finger to when you vote for Ron Paul? Women, minorities, poor people.  Upholding age old power differences and prejudices—-so fresh and exciting.

Comment #52: ginmar  on  12/28  at  02:00 PM

@Comment #50: Lee on 12/28 at 01:19 PM

  No athiest and Dark Avenger, Ron Paul isn’t right about the Israeli lobby. The Israeli lobby argument is pure crap, just complete Jew-hating shit. Its the old Jews have disproportional impact, secret conspiracy to control the world in a more sophisticated gloss.

If there is no strong Israel lobby in the USA, then how do you account for the phenomena that Stephen Walt describes in this blog post *? Why would Obama make a supportive public statement about the Arab Spring Uprisings in June 2011, then meet with Netanyahu who criticized Obama for supporting the Arab Spring, and then go immediately to AIPAC to make a speech clarifying his remarks? Does that strongly suggest that Obama thinks AIPAC and Netanyahu are extremely important? Why would Obama make that calculation?

And, why would Netanyahu get such thunderous applause in his own speech to congress where he said that he doesn’t support a “two-state” solution in Israel/Palestine? Why would all of these things occur if there was not a very strong Israel lobby in the US?

Note: Walt is not arguing that there is a “Jewish secret conspiracy” that controls US foreign policy. He is arguing that there is a lobbying group of people and organizations centered around Israel that have outsized power when it comes to US foreign policy, and who advocate for policies which are in neither the US nor the Israeli long-term interest.

* “Do the American people support the ‘special relationship?’”, Foreign Policy, June 3, 2011, by Stephen Walt

Comment #53: atheist  on  12/28  at  02:07 PM

Half the human population is made up of women but let’s just ignore them while we bemoan the same old shit.

Comment #54: ginmar  on  12/28  at  02:20 PM

As Libertarian above notes, the Ron Paul phenomenon is an exclusive result of Obama’s conservative fuckwittery.

Comment #55: Punditus Maximus  on  12/28  at  02:22 PM

The Israeli lobby argument is pure crap, just complete Jew-hating shit.

Pure crap is what Josh Block, former AIPAC flack and professional accusationist, has been trying to sell lately:

But missing here is any mention of what really got the Truman folks upset at Block. As I reported earlier this month, Block had sent out an email to a neoconservative listserv in which he said, referring to writers at the Center for American Progress and Media Matters, “These are the words of anti-Semites, not Democratic political players.” That was further than Block had gone publicly and it was a particularly serious charge; he also urged journalists on the listerv to “amplify” the attacks.

Truman spokesman David Solimini told me that the anti-Semitism charges from Block were particularly troubling.

“Josh was removed from our community because he’s unable to differentiate between an honest debate and a personal attack,” Solimini said. >“There is real anti-semitism in the world and we can’t debase the term by using it for everyone who disagrees with us on Israel policy.”

Really, it’s funny (not in a ha ha way) to even talk about small gov’t.  Maybe you haven’t noticed the size of your fed, state and local gov’ts.  Mine are stealing almost 50% of my income every year.

A man condemning the income tax because of the annoyance it gives him or the expense it puts him to is merely a dog baring its teeth, and he forfeits the privileges of civilized discourse. But it is possible to criticize it on other and impersonal grounds. A government, like an individual, spends money for any or all of three reasons: because it needs to, because it wants to, or simply because it has it to spend. The last is much the shabbiest. It is arguable, if not manifest, that a substantial portion of the great spring flood of billions pouring into the Treasury will in effect get spent for the last shabby reason.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nero_Wolfe#And_Be_a_Villain

the final step of disallowing smoking in restaurants definitely required a positive enforceable restriction on behavior.

I don’t see where exposing people to unwanted smoke is somehow an unreasonable restriction of behavior.

Laws that ban smoking in outdoor areas where one can move upwind away from said smoke easily would be a better example, but then any good idea can be taken to an extreme.

 

 

 

 

Comment #56: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/28  at  02:51 PM

Link to the Josh Block article:

http://www.salon.com/2011/12/23/ex_aipac_flack_loses_gig_over_anti_semites_flap/singleton/

Comment #57: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/28  at  02:54 PM

Re: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein

Generally those are in places that one cannot move to avoid the smoke - crowded parks, entrances of buildings - the building can’t move and may have air intakes there, etc.  Or places where the litter or fire hazard aren’t able to be mitigated.  No one really complains about no smoking rules at fireworks stands or gas stations, do that?

Comment #58: Crissa  on  12/28  at  03:20 PM

I actually miss people being able to smoke in restaurants & whatnot. I actually like the smell of cigarette smoke. But though the anti-smoking ordinances obviously inconvenienced folks, they do seem like a net gain for society.

Comment #59: atheist  on  12/28  at  03:32 PM

If I thought President Paul could put a stop to that, (the two other branches of government are too enmeshed in the drug war for a president to do much good.) I’d have a good hard think about it, trying to balance the amount of human misery created by the drug war against the amount that Ron Paul as president would create. I think I’d still say no, but I’d have to think about it.

I’m not a fan of the drug war, but I have to agree with Xeranar here.  The solution to ending the drug war isn’t to suddenly decriminalize all illegal drugs.  Can you imagine the clusterfuck that would create?  And it would be mostly in poor communities.  The crack epidemic ravaged the urban poor, and not just because so many were locked up for dealing or using.  Those kinds of drugs ruin lives and communities and even more so if users can’t get treatment.

Ron Paul’s political philosophy precludes any government support of drug treatment programs.  His decriminalization of drugs would benefit the upper class at the expense of everyone else.  What good is decriminalization of drugs if we emptied our prisons of dealers just to fill them up again with drug-addled criminals who’ve committed property and violent offenses?

Comment #60: keshmeshi  on  12/28  at  04:56 PM

  Athiest and Dark Chow, when Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer first published the Israel Lobby, many criticised them for pimping anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. This includes the Nation. Recently, Stephen Walt and John Mearsheiemer have proven themselves to be Jew haters by actually endorsing an anti-Semitic book, the Wondering Who, by self-proclaimed self-hating Jew Gilad Atzmon.

  http://hurryupharry.org/2011/09/26/mearsheimer-and-walt-defend-antisemite-who-thinks-hitler-will-be-prove-right

  Gilad Atzmon has publicly praised Mein Kampf:
  http://hurryupharry.org/2011/10/04/gilad-atzmon-on-mein-kampf

He also stated that that the Jewish lobbies pressured Hitler like AIPAC pressures Obama:
  http://hurryupharry.org/2011/09/28/mearsheimer-walt-jewish-lobbies-pressured-hitler-like-aipac-pressures-obama

  Atzmon’s recent book, the Wondering Who, is so filled with Jew hating garbage that even the most adamant anti-Zionists are criticizing it.
  http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/09/zero-authors-statement-on-gilad-atzmon.html

  http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep25/gilad-atzmon-antisemitism-the-left

If it look like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it is a duck. Walt and Mearsheimer disguised one of the most notorious anti-Jewish arguments as scholarship and published it as the Israel Lobby. They were criticized when the first made the argument. They have recently defended one of the most openly vile anti-Semites, self-proclaimed self-hating Jew Gilad Atzmon, whom other anti-Zionists find appalling. Therefore, the obvious conclusion is that Walt and Mearsheimer are Jew haters and their opinion on Israel or anything else regarding Jews is suspect.

Comment #61: Lee  on  12/28  at  04:59 PM

Nobody here said smoking bans were unreasonable, Dark Avenger. At least, I didn’t and Lee didn’t seem to.  The point here is that there is such a thing as a reasonable intrusion.  Sometimes the government has to intrude on personal liberty, and that’s okay. We as communities have to take it seriously, and apply that power judiciously. But people like Ron Paul and Libertarian think that judgment call is too hard to make, so they’ll oppose smoking bans lest they push us down the slippery slope of rounding up smokers and putting them in work camps.

Comment #62: Cris (without an H)  on  12/28  at  05:00 PM

The funny thing about smoking bans is that restaurants end up making more money after they are imposed.

See, more people DON’T smoke than smoke.  The old adage was smokers stayed longer and ordered deserts and drinks while non-smokers healthily disdained.  In reality, nonsmokers just wanted to get away from the smoke.

Now nonsmokers stay for dessert and coffees.  And there are more nonsmokers than smokers.  There’s no way businesses would have risked finding this out on their own.  Even when shown the results of other communities who switched, restaurant associations fought it.

Now we all breather better air, the food tastes better, the staff is healthier and the restaurants make more money.  Oh, that evil government.

——
Ron Paul is anti-contraception, too.  He’s all about allowing religious exemptions and conscious clauses.  That increases the freedom of controlling patriarchs while decreasing the freedom of women, who don’t count for anything other than baby carriers.

No where in his long diatribes of how he is nobly pro-life does he ever mention a woman or her health concerns.  It’s all about protecting the fertilized egg and the poor fee`fees of men in churches or pharmacies who might have to deal with those harlots.

Liberty for rich, fundy, white guys like himself.  The rest of us can go scratch.

Comment #63: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/28  at  05:34 PM

I will never understand how some “liberals” can believe that there’s anything good about a xenophobic racist isolationist theocrat who opposes imperial adventures because they get in the way of dismantling the Federal government so that states can impose theocracy at home, nor will I ever understand how some “liberals” can believe there’s anything good about a goldbug randroid neofeudalist crank who wants stricter oversight of the Federal Reserve so that monetary policy can be made a capital offense, so that nothing can get in the way of upward redistribution of wealth,  and so that he personally can make a killing in gold market scams.

Ron Paul’s brand of anti-war crankery is more dangerous than anything any war hawk ever proclaimed.  He is not an ally in ending ridiculous wars; he’s a racist xenophobic piece of shit who want to use people who oppose ridiculous wars as tools for enabling massive oppression at home and forcing the U.S. to squat in a bunker and just wait for everyone else to die whenever there’s an international problem we might be able to help solve.

Comment #64: Robert Johnston  on  12/28  at  05:34 PM

  Crist at 64: Yes, this is my point.

Comment #65: Lee  on  12/28  at  05:43 PM

Crissa:

The funny thing about smoking bans is that restaurants end up making more money after they are imposed.

Interesting fact, though: restaurants may do better, but at least in Montana, casinos did worse.

Montana saw a significant drop in video gambling machine tax collections after the state outlawed smoking indoors in October of 2009. According to reports from the Gambling Control Division of the state Department of Justice, tax collections from these machines totaled over $62 million in 2009. That number dropped by 15.6 percent to $52 million in 2010.

 

Comment #66: Cris (without an H)  on  12/28  at  05:54 PM

@Comment #63: Lee on 12/28 at 04:59 PM

  Athiest and Dark Chow, when Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer first published the Israel Lobby, many criticised them for pimping anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. This includes the Nation. Recently, Stephen Walt and John Mearsheiemer have proven themselves to be Jew haters by actually endorsing an anti-Semitic book, the Wondering Who, by self-proclaimed self-hating Jew Gilad Atzmon.

The reasoning employed at that “Harry’s Place” blog seems very tendentious. I haven’t read Atzmon, so I can’t comment on him directly. The way that “Joseph W” is quoting little snippets of his book and then explaining what they “really mean” is unenlightening at best.

More importantly, what would you respond to the specifics that Walt raised in his article in Foreign Policy? If there is no powerful Israel lobby, then why does Obama feel the need to explain himself to AIPAC after Netanyahu criticizes his statements on the Arab Spring? And why does Congress cheer when Netanyahu says he doesn’t support a two-state solution?

Mr. Newman’s statements also seem rather sketchy. The Atzmon statements about “Jewish Marxism” seem to dovetail with other mainstream things I’ve read about the origins of Zionism, as a form of socialism in its origins. Yet Mr. Newman takes them in a sinister manner.

Comment #67: atheist  on  12/28  at  05:55 PM

Generally those are in places that one cannot move to avoid the smoke - crowded parks, entrances of buildings - the building can’t move and may have air intakes there, etc.  Or places where the litter or fire hazard aren’t able to be mitigated.

I’m talking about banning smoking in public parks, as was done in NYC this year:

The law, which Mayor Michael Bloomberg signed in February after it was passed by the New York City Council, will make smoking illegal in New York City’s 1,700 parks and on the city’s 14 miles of public beaches. Smoking will also be prohibited in pedestrian plazas like Times Square.

I got a 404 on your first link, Lee, and your evidence is so damning:

Gilad Atzmon has written a fascinating and provocative book on Jewish identity in the modern world. He shows how assimilation and liberalism are making it increasingly difficult for Jews in the Diaspora to maintain a powerful sense of their ‘Jewishness.’ Panicked Jewish leaders, he argues, have turned to Zionism (blind loyalty to Israel) and scaremongering (the threat of another Holocaust) to keep the tribe united and distinct from the surrounding goyim. As Atzmon’s own case demonstrates, this strategy is not working and is causing many Jews great anguish. The Wandering Who? should be widely read by Jews and non-Jews alike.

By your standards, that means that Tom Friedman is an anti-Zionist Jew because Walt praised him recently:

Many of you probably saw Tom Friedman’s startling column in yesterday’s New York Times, where he attacked the Republican presidential candidates for pandering on the subject of Israel. He also informed his readers that all those standing ovations for Netanyahu in Congress were “bought and paid for by the Israel lobby,” and he correctly noted that this blind and unconditional support for Israel was not really “pro-Israel” at all. Why? Because it was leading Israel away from a two-state solution and toward one of three disastrous options from Israel’s perspective: 1) apartheid, 2) ethnic cleansing, or 3) a binational democratic state which would eventually be dominated by the more numerous Palestinians.

.............................................

I would like to say a few words about a key theme running through some of the attacks on Friedman, most notably in an angry blog post by Elliott Abrams, who, by the way, is no friend of Israel. According to Abrams and others, the real reason that politicians pander and that Bibi got all those standing ovations in Congress is because the vast majority of Americans really love Israel, and therefore politicians are just giving the people what they want.

This is a common talking point among Israel’s defenders, most of whom intensely dislike or are at least uncomfortable with the claim that the lobby is the driving force behind the special relationship. The problem, as Jim Lobe points out in a recent post, is that’s its not true. To be sure, Americans have a much more favorable view of Israel than they do of the Palestinians (which is partly, though not entirely, due to differences in media coverage over time). But more importantly, there is abundant survey evidence showing that the American people favor the United States taking an “even-handed” position on the conflict and not favoring Israel. Lobe cites recent surveys by the Chicago Council on Global Affairs and by the Brookings Institution that demonstrate this point (in the former, two-thirds of the respondents, including the GOP respondents, thought the United States should favor neither side). Even a 2005 survey by the Anti-Defamation League found that 78 percent of Americans believe that the U.S. government should favor neither Israel nor the Palestinians. For more support for this basic point, go here.

Indeed, the evidence shows clearly that many Americans would be perfectly willing to play hardball with Israel when it acts in ways that are not in the U.S.  national interest. For example, back in 2002, a Time/CNN poll found that 60 percent of Americans supported cutting off aid to Israel if it did not respond to Bush administration demands that it withdraw from areas it had occupied (during the Second intifada). One year later, a survey by the University of Maryland reported that over 60 percent of Americans would be willing to withhold aid to Israel if it resisted U.S. pressure to settle the conflict.

(cont)

Comment #68: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/28  at  05:57 PM

If it look like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it is a duck.

Let’s hear what the duck has to say, he may not be as foul as you portray him:

Silvia Cattori: You state that “Jewish power” should be put at the centre of the problem – and that, at the same time, the discourse of certain “anti Zionists”, that you regard as misleading, should be challenged. When you write : “Zionism is not a colonial movement with an interest in Palestine, as some scholars suggest. Zionism is actually a global movement that is fuelled by unique tribal solidarity of third category members…”, you call into question those who characterize Israel as mere ‘settler colonialism’. This is indeed a crucial point. What are your arguments for claiming that it is not simply a colonialist model?

Gilad Atzmon: Indeed, I am disturbed by the lack of intellectual integrity and coherence within our discourse and beyond. It took me some time to grasp that years of Jewish (intellectual) hegemony within the Palestinian solidarity discourse has led to an absurd situation in which criticism of the Jewish state — is shaped primarily by Jewish sensitivities.

Try, for instance, to imagine a situation in which our criticism of capitalism would be shaped in a deliberately over cautious manner — just to make sure that the rich are not offended. Likewise, try to imagine another equally absurd situation, in which our criticism of Nazi ideology would have take into consideration the delicate sensitivities of biological determinists and anti-Semites. It seems equally absurd that we are in such a situation where we have to tread carefully in what we say about Palestinian rights – so as not to offend Jewish people.

And, yes, I say it openly: Zionism is not a colonial movement, and has never been one. Colonialism establishes a clear relationship between a mother-state and a settler-state — yet Zionism has never had a mother state. It is true that Israel exhibits some colonial symptoms, but this is where it starts and ends. Zionism is driven by spirit of Jewish supremacy and a phantasmal notion of ‘homecoming’.

The misleading colonial paradigm was introduced by a few ‘progressive’ thinkers just to make sure that Marx is not left out of the discourse. At least intellectually, what we see here is no more than amusing.

However, it is important to mention here, that the only noticeable colonial aspect within the Zionist reality is the relationships between the Israeli State and the settlements: the exchange there makes it clear who is the ‘mother’ and who is the ‘settler’.

Silvia Cattori: I would like to understand why advocates of Palestinian rights still refrain from labelling Israel for what it really is? Why do you think they are so reluctant to address the issue of Jewish power and its disastrous political impact?

Gilad Atzmon: I think that when it comes to Israel and ‘Jewish power’ every humanist, including myself, has a conflict to handle. I would formulate it as such: ‘how can I tell the truth about Israel, the Lobby, and Zionism and still maintain my position as a humanist’. It took me very many years to learn to differentiate between the wheat and chaff. I learned to distinguish between Jews (the people), Judaism (the religion) and Jewishness (the ideology). This differentiation is not free of problems, because, as we know, most Jews themselves do not know where they stand on those three. Most Jews do not know where Judaism ends and Jewishness starts.

Likewise, most Jewish anti Zionists fail to admit that they actually operate in Jewish exclusive political cells. We are dealing with a very peculiar political identity indeed. It is racially oriented and deeply racist. It is supremacist, yet it is saturated with victimhood. This identity conveys a universal image – yet in truth, it is driven by tribal interests.

In my writing however, I restrict myself to issues to do with Jewish ideology (Jewishness). I try to grasp that unique sense of chosen-ness and observe how it comes into play within politics, culture and practice. It is obvious that, for the time being, there are no intellectual tools to restrict criticism of ideology. And this really means that my detractors are pretty much left in a hopeless situation— they do not posses the intellectual means to silence me or my criticism, so instead, they revert to smear campaigns: they label me an ‘anti Semite’, a ‘Neo Nazi’, a ‘racist’, and so on. Tragically enough for them, no one out side of the Jewish political circuit takes any of these empty accusations at all seriously anymore.

 

Comment #69: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/28  at  05:58 PM

I think you’re totally wrong. I don’t understand how you can be a leftist and not be opposed the War on Some Classes of People Who Use Some Drugs. You’ve got a government policy that disproportionally hurts the poor and members of minority groups. And leads to the deaths of thousands of people in other countries. All because Americans love cocaine, but want to pretend like we don’t.

This is the lazy assumption.  Like being against the death penalty because we disproportionately put blacks on death row for killing whites.  If we simply level the playing field, in this case arrest rich white suburbanites for their coke fiend habits things will change, either we’ll embrace our coke habit or reject it.  The inconsistency has nothing to do with our inability to fight it but our total lack of care for those who are poor.  The majority of the poor and minorities DON’T want drugs legalized, this is such a middle-class white suburban movement it’s disturbing.  I’m perfectly fine being a socialist who views drugs as an unnecessary evil in my world.  But I grew up in a different world from the pot smokers in the suburbs.

Comment #70: Xeranar  on  12/28  at  06:04 PM

Also, a nitpick: “John Mearshimer and Stephen Walt” did not “endorse” Atzmon’s book. John Mearshimer wrote a blurb on Gilad Atzmon’s book, saying it should be read by Jews and non-Jews alike.

Comment #71: atheist  on  12/28  at  06:06 PM

@Xeranar: While the majority of any given class don’t want hallucinogens and stimulants legalized, an overwhelming majority of Americans in most classes want marijuana legalized.

Comment #72: Punditus Maximus  on  12/28  at  06:12 PM

@Xeranar

And meanwhile, America has the highest incarceration rate in the world and privatized prison corps continue to profit from all the non-violent (mostly non-white) offenders getting locked away. Even if you oppose the legalization of marijuana, I do hope you at least favor reducing the penalty to something more on the “slap on the wrist” level. I just don’t see any way to justify all the imprisonment except in an authoritarian frame.

Comment #73: Triplanetary  on  12/28  at  07:03 PM

I’m perfectly fine being a socialist who views drugs as an unnecessary evil in my world.

Sure, if you support socialism because the parent/state should take care of the child/citizen, then other authoritarian positions are in perfect harmony with your worldview.

On the other hand, if you view economic policy as a way to correct for injustices, then you can have a sane and rational view about drug policy. It helps to actually give two shits about liberty.

Comment #74: Kurt Horner  on  12/28  at  07:05 PM

@Comment #55: Libertarian on 12/28 at 01:12 PM

Just as there is no chance of Paul being elected, there is no chance of anything close to a libertarian society taking hold here.

Did anyone else find this statement to be as strange as I did? The USA already has possibly the most libertarian society on Earth outside of someplace like El Salvador.

Comment #75: atheist  on  12/28  at  07:45 PM

Good luck trying to get a libertarian to understand that. Libertarianism is the ideology of spoiled children and people who envied the schoolyard bullies who beat them up. Even a totally libertarian state wouldn’t be enough for them, because they’d be sitting around in their unheated bungalows with no electricity or running water complaining that the local warlord is violating their property rights.

Comment #76: BrianX  on  12/28  at  08:52 PM

The letter promoting Paul’s newsletters was written about 1993. It was during a period in which Paul - who left Congress in 1985 after serving about eight years - returned to Washington after a decade’s absence.

This part didn’t make sense to me. If Ron Paul left DC in 1985 and returned in 1993, that’s an absence of eight years, not a decade. I’m guessing it was probably just an editorial oversight, that perhaps the author intended to write “nearly a decade’s absence”. It’s a little confusing as written.

Comment #77: DTGslu2K  on  12/28  at  09:01 PM

Comment #55: Libertarian on 12/28 at 01:12 PM

  Just as there is no chance of Paul being elected, there is no chance of anything close to a libertarian society taking hold here.

”@77 Did anyone else find this statement to be as strange as I did? The USA already has possibly the most libertarian society on Earth outside of someplace like El Salvador.”

Libertarianism isn’t a pragmatic philosophy with followers interested in incremental changes and betterment.  Libertarianism in its dominant form of practice is a fundamentalist religious dogma that demands perfect purity of followers and deems any and all deviations from perfection to be absolutely and equally socialist and evil. “Most libertarian society” is a nonsense concept to a follower of the libertarian religion; for such a person there is only libertarian and not-libertarian, and degrees of libertarianism are meaningless.

Comment #78: Robert Johnston  on  12/28  at  09:06 PM

I’m perfectly willing to concede that smoking bans are an example of where a liberal activist state intrudes on civil liberties—but it’s a choice, not something easier to do in the liberal activist state than the libertarian state. The infrastructure of the liberal activist state does not itself violate civil liberties, while in some cases, I can conceive of how the law enforcement infrastructure necessary to impose libertopia and enforce the demands of prvate property owners against the citizens, the government will be more than willing to violate (or acquiesce to the violation of) civil liberties.

Comment #79: Tyro  on  12/28  at  09:14 PM

  Oh sigh, you two are hopeless.

Comment #80: Lee  on  12/28  at  10:45 PM

  That is you only recognize anti-Semitism when it comes from a person with a swastika or another rightist. Even people who previously defended Walt and Mearsheimer of anti-Semitism have distanced themselves from him.

  http://www.chequerboard.org/2011/09/i-take-it-back/

  http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/09/mearsheimers-malfeasance.html

  http://volokh.com/2011/09/20/john-mearsheimer-endorses-book-by-a-proud-self-hating-jew/

  The last two links in my post were from two sources not friendly towards Israel and they recognize Atzmon is an anti-Semitic nutcase that should be treated like scum. For Mearsheimer and Walt to endorse him, and he did endorse him, means that he is either a Jew hater or an idiot. My guess is the latter.

  For additional pleasure, here is an alternative take on AIPAC that I find more true than Walt and Mearsheimer’s analysis. AIPAC is successful because most Americans, even most non-Jewish Americans, already agree with its positions.

    http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2010/04/05/why-aipac-is-good-for-the-jews-and-for-everyone-else/

Comment #81: Lee  on  12/28  at  11:04 PM

That is you only recognize anti-Semitism when it comes from a person with a swastika or another rightist

As I stated earlier, if Walt is an anti-Semite, or someone who excuses anti-Semitism, by your formulation, then Friedman is, by being praised by Walt for his column about the Israel lobby, is himself an anti-Semite/apologist for an anti-Semite.

The last two links in my post were from two sources not friendly towards Israel and they recognize Atzmon is an anti-Semitic nutcase that should be treated like scum. For Mearsheimer and Walt to endorse him, and he did endorse him, means that he is either a Jew hater or an idiot. My guess is the latter.

Then it shouldn’t be difficult for you to prove the thesis that Atzmon is anti-Semitic, based on the interview I linked to, shouldn’t it?

You think that Andrew “The Bell Curve” Sullivan is some sort of moral beacon on the subject of race and prejudice?

You are hopeless with your links to denunciations instead of providing primary material that would make Atzmon’s “anti-Semitism” visible for all the world to see.

“A fanatic is one, who forgetting their original aim, redoubles their efforts.”

Comment #82: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/29  at  12:34 AM

@Comment #83: Lee on 12/28 at 11:04 PM

  For additional pleasure, here is an alternative take on AIPAC that I find more true than Walt and Mearsheimer’s analysis. AIPAC is successful because most Americans, even most non-Jewish Americans, already agree with its positions.

  http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2010/04/05/why-aipac-is-good-for-the-jews-and-for-everyone-else/

I have to get to work so I’ll make this quick. I read Meade’s piece. His primary argument is that the Israel lobby is just enacting policies that the American public wants due to its inherent support of Israel. Walt already dealt with this argument in the blog post I linked to earlier. Walt said:

First, even if it were true that the public had “overwhelming sympathy” for Israel, it does not immediately follow that United States policy would necessarily follow suit. U.S. officials frequently do things that a majority of Americans oppose, if they believe that doing so is in the U.S. interest. A majority of Americans oppose fighting on in Afghanistan, for example, yet the Obama administration chose to escalate that war instead. ...

Second, to the extent that the American public does have a favorable image of Israel—and there’s no question that it does—that is at least partly due to the lobby’s own efforts to shape public discourse and stifle negative commentary. The lobby doesn’t “control the media,” but “pro-Israel” groups like the ADL and CAMERA work actively to influence how Israel is portrayed in the United States, aided by reliably supportive publications like The New Republic. ...
If Americans were exposed to a more open discourse—such as the discourse that prevails in Europe or in Israel itself—Israel’s favorable image would almost certainly decrease (though by no means disappear).

Third, and most important, the evidence suggests that the American people are not in favor of a one-sided “special relationship” where Israel gets unconditional American backing no matter what it does. Although there is no question that Americans have a generally favorable image of Israel and want the United States to help it survive and prosper, they are not demanding that U.S. politicians back it to the hilt or show the kind of craven adulation that Congress displayed last week.

Americans certainly tend to support Israel, but it is the action of the Israel lobby that makes the political support so dangerously blind and one-sided. I have to say that I don’t appreciate Meade’s suggestions that those who criticize the Israel lobby are engaging in old-skool antisemitic smears about “dual loyalty” or “rootless cosmopolitans”. Nor do I appreciate being told that I am Brutus, a traitor for even disagreeing, as Meade also suggests.

Finally, you still have not engaged the issues that Walt brought up in his blog post! If there is no powerful Israel lobby, how to you account for Obama’s actions, where he first speaks in support of the Arab Spring, then gets a dress-down from Netanyahu, then decides to explain himself to AIPAC?

Comment #83: atheist  on  12/29  at  08:23 AM

Interesting fact, though: restaurants may do better, but at least in Montana, casinos did worse.

  Montana saw a significant drop in video gambling machine tax collections after the state outlawed smoking indoors in October of 2009. According to reports from the Gambling Control Division of the state Department of Justice, tax collections from these machines totaled over $62 million in 2009. That number dropped by 15.6 percent to $52 million in 2010.


Comment #68: Cris (without an H)  on 12/28 at 05:54 PM

That’s only one factor.  Googling on casinos 2010 I get another view:

“Few gaming markets were spared the impacts of the bad economy,” he said. “As we saw, beginning in the second half of 2008, the casino industry is no longer resistant to recession. For better or worse, the industry’s 2010 performance will be tied to Americans’ feelings of financial well being.”
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9FHEKNG0.htm

 

Comment #84: oldfeminist  on  12/29  at  09:59 AM

@Comment #82: Lee on 12/28 at 09:45 PM

Oh sigh, you two are hopeless.

I don’t consider you hopeless. Why do you consider us to be so?

Comment #85: atheist  on  12/29  at  10:40 AM

Because we use facts and logic, including an interview with Aztmon that demonstrates he’s neither a neo-Nazi or an anti-Semite.

Comment #86: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/29  at  11:07 AM

Thread hijacking by Zionist/Anti-Zionist argument.

Some of the Anti-Zionist guys are really Anti-Semites.  Some are not.
Some of the opposition to Israeli government policies actually comes from Jews.

A lot of AIPAC and misguided Israeli-government-policy support comes from fundies who need to support Israel so that their end-of-times prophecies (including all Jews going to hell) come true.

Nuff said.

Comment #87: lc224  on  12/29  at  02:40 PM

I’m not a fan of the drug war, but I have to agree with Xeranar here.  The solution to ending the drug war isn’t to suddenly decriminalize all illegal drugs.  Can you imagine the clusterfuck that would create?  And it would be mostly in poor communities.  The crack epidemic ravaged the urban poor, and not just because so many were locked up for dealing or using.  Those kinds of drugs ruin lives and communities and even more so if users can’t get treatment.

Ron Paul’s political philosophy precludes any government support of drug treatment programs.  His decriminalization of drugs would benefit the upper class at the expense of everyone else.  What good is decriminalization of drugs if we emptied our prisons of dealers just to fill them up again with drug-addled criminals who’ve committed property and violent offenses?

I don’t imagine that clusterfuck would be much different than the current situation in which illegal drugs are widely available, especially in poor communities. If I wanted to go smoke some crack, it wouldn’t take me very long to find someone to sell it to me. I might have to leave my lower-middle class neighborhood to do it. Or I could go to the country to buy some meth.

And the prisons aren’t currently free of drug-addled criminals who’ve committed property and violent offenses. I’ve heard people in the criminal justice system assert that 70 percent or so of the people who come through are there to some extent due to substance abuse. (Including not just people who commit a drug crime or steal to feed their habit, but people who commit crimes while under the influence. Maybe they’ve have done those crimes anyways, but I’ve seen people who got trashed out of their mind and went on burglary sprees, for instance.)

This is the lazy assumption.  Like being against the death penalty because we disproportionately put blacks on death row for killing whites.  If we simply level the playing field, in this case arrest rich white suburbanites for their coke fiend habits things will change, either we’ll embrace our coke habit or reject it.  The inconsistency has nothing to do with our inability to fight it but our total lack of care for those who are poor.  The majority of the poor and minorities DON’T want drugs legalized, this is such a middle-class white suburban movement it’s disturbing.  I’m perfectly fine being a socialist who views drugs as an unnecessary evil in my world.  But I grew up in a different world from the pot smokers in the suburbs.

But what about the cartels? And our total lack of care for those who aren’t U.S. citizens? If cocaine (because that’s the cartels big business) was legal in this country, we’d have all the bad things that currently happen because of drug use. Maybe use would go up, although that’s not the experience of places like Holland who decriminalized marijuana or Portugal. But say we had the current, plus a little more. And I’m sure it would be disproportionally felt by poor people, because everything is.

But we wouldn’t be enriching criminal organizations that are tearing Central America apart and killing a shitload of people. They’re doing this because of the profits they can make because drugs are illegal. The price of really ineffectively protecting people in U.S. from the evils of drug use is killing a lot of people in the countries south of here.

Is it possible I’m blinded by my white suburban priveldge? Of course. But I grew up not in the burbs, but in a tiny, rural community with horrendous rates of poverty and substance abuse. And, yeah, total child of privelidge, especially for that place, but I don’t think the points you raise show why I’m wrong about this.

Comment #88: witless chum  on  12/29  at  04:20 PM

People don’t want to talk about how awful the War On Some Americans Who Use Some Drugs is, because then they’d have to confront what a heartless, failing asshole Obama is for backing it despite being begged not to.

Comment #89: Punditus Maximus  on  12/29  at  05:30 PM

I don’t imagine that clusterfuck would be much different than the current situation in which illegal drugs are widely available, especially in poor communities. If I wanted to go smoke some crack, it wouldn’t take me very long to find someone to sell it to me. I might have to leave my lower-middle class neighborhood to do it. Or I could go to the country to buy some meth.

And you know this from personal experience?

And you’re just going to ignore the point that Ron Paul opposes:  any government assistance to the poor; any government provision of mental health care treatment or drug treatment to those who can’t afford it?

And the prisons aren’t currently free of drug-addled criminals who’ve committed property and violent offenses. I’ve heard people in the criminal justice system assert that 70 percent or so of the people who come through are there to some extent due to substance abuse.

And you don’t think that would be made worse in a Ron Paul utopia where there is ZERO help to the poor in job training, welfare, or health care?  The libertarian solution to drug abuse to throw all the users in prison and throw away the key.  As flawed as our prison system is, especially in the worst states, there are programs in prison for drug treatment and job training.  It’s not perfect and it’s not enough, but it does exist.

You are fooling yourself if you think drug use won’t drastically increase were it simply decriminalized.  As harmful as alcohol prohibition was, it did decrease alcohol consumption overall.  And, when it was made legal again, the states didn’t just allow alcohol to be sold anywhere and to anyone.  Regulations were put in place for the purpose of harm minimization.  Libertarians are opposed to that on principle, which would make their version of decriminalization worse than the status quo.

Ron Paul’s brand of drug decriminalization is akin to thinking prison reform should entail just letting all the prisoners out.

they’d have to confront what a heartless, failing asshole Obama is for backing it despite being begged not to.

Tell that to crack offenders.

Comment #90: keshmeshi  on  12/29  at  09:09 PM

in the ridiculous universe where Ron Paul got elected, none of his small-government staying out of people’s lives stuff would get passed. Congress wouldn’t change the drug laws, and the DEA wouldn’t stop enforcing them (at least for the several years it would take to get new personnel at the top, if ever). Same for the wars. But a republican congress would be thrilled to enact the small-government no help for the poor and middle class stuff. And the big-government anti-choice stuff. So you’d have the worst of all possible worlds.

Comment #91: paul  on  12/29  at  11:06 PM

@93:  +1. 

With all the buzz about Paul, I went to his “Issues” page to check it out for myself. 

Top of the page:  Abortion!  RP, professed Libertarian, is 100% ProLife.  And, BONUS:  he wants a “fetal personhood” law.  Good times all around for the mens. 

Other Issue Boxes prominently displayed on the page:  2nd Amendment!  Homeschooling!  (I am not making this up.) 

Oh, and just in case you think RP has some wowie great ideas for, dunno, Health Care, here are a couple of them: 

1.  selling insurance across state lines (sound familiar?  Right outta the Republican playbook, that one.) 
2.  providing payroll deduction for people who stay home to take care of their famililes (let’s see:  mom had to quit her job to take care of grandma, so how will that work, exactly?  Oh, and RP promises to cut EVERYONE’S taxes, so how is that credit going to help me, again,?) 
3.  Exempt people who have terminal or serious illnesses from payroll taxes.  (Yeah, that’s a big help - my piddling payroll taxes versus my $100K medical bill.) 


Get the picture?  Same old GOP talking points with extra added fundie bigotry included at no charge.
Anyone who considers themselves even remotely “progressive” needs to take five minutes and see if there is even a half dozen ideas RP is promoting that are even in the same century as “progressive.” 

 

Comment #92: Gone2Ground  on  12/30  at  12:36 AM

And you know this from personal experience?

And you’re just going to ignore the point that Ron Paul opposes:  any government assistance to the poor; any government provision of mental health care treatment or drug treatment to those who can’t afford it?

Sure I know it from personal experience. I’ve bought drugs before and I doubt it’s changed so much in 15 years. You start with somebody you know who uses drugs and you go from there. Younger cousins or coworkers would also be a resource.

And I’m going to ignore that point because as I said originally I wouldn’t vote for the guy over any Democrat because he’d be worse across the board. In the Republican primary, sure, why not?

You are fooling yourself if you think drug use won’t drastically increase were it simply decriminalized.  As harmful as alcohol prohibition was, it did decrease alcohol consumption overall.  And, when it was made legal again, the states didn’t just allow alcohol to be sold anywhere and to anyone.  Regulations were put in place for the purpose of harm minimization.  Libertarians are opposed to that on principle, which would make their version of decriminalization worse than the status quo.

I’m agnostic on whether drug use would increase much with legalization. What I’m as sure of as gravity is that if there are bad consequences to USian drug use, we ought to pay them. Not Columbians or Mexicans or any of the countries that are being harmed by violence associated with the drug trade. Our policies and our demand are making it profitable for drug cartels to exist and that’s killing a lot of people who have no say in the policies or the demand.

Comment #93: witless chum  on  12/30  at  01:01 AM

And Punditus, you can’t be president of the United States in its current conception without being a heartless, failing asshole.

Comment #94: witless chum  on  12/30  at  01:06 AM

I actually miss people being able to smoke in restaurants & whatnot. I actually like the smell of cigarette smoke. But though the anti-smoking ordinances obviously inconvenienced folks, they do seem like a net gain for society.

Atheist:
what this actually does is keep some asshole smoker from infringing on my (and that of my spouse and other people with health issues and small children and the workers who had no choice but suffer if they wanted their job) rights to breathe.
You know what I don’t miss?  Having to rush out of a restaurant because my spouse can’t catch his breath or is coughing because of the cloud of smoke from the next table.  Having to wash my hair as soon as we came home from dancing so that my bedding wouldn’t stink (and not being able to go out dancing at all anymore once he had a heart attack). 
Initial anti-smoking was a protection of rights and access due to people no longer being civil enough to follow the old codes of “smoke outside so as not to be an asshole”.  As usual, leftist prescriptive laws are a result of too many assholes not caring about anyone else and their equally valid rights.

Comment #95: helen w. h.  on  12/30  at  12:22 PM

@Comment #97: helen w. h.  on 12/30 at 11:22 AM

what this actually does is keep some asshole smoker from infringing on my (and that of my spouse and other people with health issues and small children and the workers who had no choice but suffer if they wanted their job) rights to breathe.
You know what I don’t miss?  Having to rush out of a restaurant because my spouse can’t catch his breath or is coughing because of the cloud of smoke from the next table.  Having to wash my hair as soon as we came home from dancing so that my bedding wouldn’t stink (and not being able to go out dancing at all anymore once he had a heart attack).

helen, your points are well taken. I agree that it wasn’t fair to other people who really can’t take smoke or just don’t like it. Just mentioning my thoughts/feelings on the subject.

Comment #96: atheist  on  12/30  at  12:44 PM

@Comment #89: lc224 on 12/29 at 01:40 PM

Thread hijacking by Zionist/Anti-Zionist argument.

Apologies. One of my hobbyhorses.

Comment #97: atheist  on  12/30  at  12:45 PM

Don’t forget the ‘selling of insurance across state lines’ line from him and the GOP includes ‘no state regulation of insurance sold in their state’.  So my insurance in CA wouldn’t be under CA law - it’d be in whatever state the insurance chose.  That defeats the purpose of having states.

Comment #98: Crissa  on  12/30  at  02:52 PM

And Punditus, you can’t be president of the United States in its current conception without being a heartless, failing asshole.

Yeah, I’ve found a very direct correlation between the belief that the US is in permanent and irrevocable decline and support for Barack Obama.

 

Comment #99: Punditus Maximus  on  12/30  at  03:01 PM

Blaming the individual rather than the institutions is what seems absurd to me. #Cultist

Comment #100: typist  on  12/30  at  04:58 PM

People focus monomaniacally on the presidency. If replacing Bush with Obama was not a move to your satisfaction what good do you think replacing Obama with someone else will do? Do you really think improving American governance is that simple?

Comment #101: typist  on  12/30  at  05:01 PM

OK spelling jokes are petty and dumb, but when I read

who works long, hard hours to pay for that war, who would much rather be spending his money on other things, like gold bricks or gold boullion

immediately my mind goes to the soup aisle where up along side Emeril’s All-Natural Chicken Stock and Voolfgang Puck’s Vegetable Broth we see Dr. Paul’s Gold Boullion, on it our man Ron with his lil’ ol’ Texas half-smile, a chef’s hat and a long wooden spoon, stirring a big steaming stock pot.

Comment #102: W. Kiernan  on  12/30  at  11:43 PM

This is an incredibly misleading article.

Congressman Paul has repeatedly stated the reasons for why he opposes foreign military interventions and US bases in other countries. He believes it creates hatred, animosity and cites the CIA theory of “blow back” as the reasons for why we should opt for trade and diplomacy instead. He has also repeatedly called for a moratorium on drone strikes and has talked about negotiation and compromise as methods to reach out to people.

If you don’t like the guy, that’s fine. Just stop making things up in the process. Why do liberals always do that?

Comment #103: Sofia Turkan  on  12/31  at  02:38 AM

Sofia how does what you just said even remotely contradict Jesse’s post?

Comment #104: typist  on  12/31  at  02:57 AM

Please re-read the original post. The author disputes the reasoning behind his opposition to the War on Terror and the War on Drugs. He/she is suggesting there is a more selfish motivation that isn’t connected to empathy for the victims of these conflicts. It’s an incredibly stupid comment to make considering the number of Youtube videos that have Paul elaborately explaining his foreign policy views.

There is this crazy notion that somehow conservatives are not for equality, which makes me wonder why they have positions of power in France, England, Canada, Australia and other Western nations (or why countries like China, Brazil and Germany have adopted de-regulatory and fiscally conservative policies to help economic growth). President Obama’s own policies are moderate conservative. It can certainly be argued that their policies will lead to further income inequality and help shrink the middle class, but this notion that they are actively pursuing policies with the intention of destroying America is conspiratorial and bizarre, much like the statements on Paul’s newsletter.

Comment #105: Sofia Turkan  on  12/31  at  03:52 AM

Sofia, Paul has also stated that he’s against the Federal War on Some Drugs, but he wouldn’t do anything about individual States that would take up the “fight” in the place of the Feds.

He could be crusading to end the drug war, for instance, on a moral or philosophical level. But as with his defense of Lawrence as a states’ rights issue, he isn’t. He crusading for it to be devolved to a state by state issue. That is not the same thing.

Libertarianism has a real position on this and it’s universal:

  Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. No individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government.

Nothing in that says force is ok as long as its used by the state of Texas instead of the FBI. And yet, that’s Ron Paul’s position on sodomy laws and drug laws and choice and a whole host of issues pertaining to individual liberties and human rights. So all of you who believe that Ron Paul would release the millions incarcerated for the victimless crime of using drugs should realize that he would only release those held in federal prisons. If you’re locked up in the State Penitentiary, he sympathizes, but thinks that States have a perfect right to do it.

In case you were wondering, the total federal prison population in 2010 was around 200,000 people while the state and local prison population was about 1.5 million. Paul says there’s nothing he can do about the latter and wouldn’t dream of telling those states what they should and shouldn’t do. That’s his principle, not freeing the victims of the drug war.

Comment #106: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/31  at  09:30 AM

There is this crazy notion that somehow conservatives are not for equality

Now where could we possibly have gotten that idea?

but this notion that they are actively pursuing policies with the intention of destroying America

...is a complete strawman.

Comment #107: Triplanetary  on  12/31  at  11:01 AM

@Comment #105: Sofia Turkan on 12/31 at 02:38 AM

Congressman Paul has repeatedly stated the reasons for why he opposes foreign military interventions and US bases in other countries. He believes it creates hatred, animosity and cites the CIA theory of “blow back” as the reasons for why we should opt for trade and diplomacy instead. He has also repeatedly called for a moratorium on drone strikes and has talked about negotiation and compromise as methods to reach out to people.

Interesting, Sofia.

It also frustrates me when folks aren’t satisfied to describe Paul’s many bad policies, but feel the need to accuse him of not really being serious about wanting peace. Nor do I understand why this is considered necessary. Paul’s positions on economics and reproductive rights are perfectly sufficient to prevent me from ever supporting him.

It is almost as if some folks resist the idea of a person who agrees with them about wars but is radically different when it comes to reproductive rights. Perhaps this idea is actually painful to comprehend. Therefore, they convince themselves that he does not “really” agree with them about war, that his anti-war positions are some kind of scam. They convince themselves of this as a form of mental self-defence.

Comment #108: atheist  on  12/31  at  01:55 PM

I think he’s genuinely antiwar but not really for the same reasons progressives usually are.

Comment #109: typist  on  01/01  at  03:35 PM

Or at least not all of the same reasons. Paul is an isolationist, despite his supporters claims otherwise. He wants to withdraw from the U.N. and NATO, he wants to end all foreign aid. Most liberals and progressives are opposed to endless war but we believe generally, in engaging with the rest of the world, international alliances and diplomacy.

Comment #110: typist  on  01/01  at  06:02 PM

Again, it’s very easy to reflexively dismiss arguments without actually doing a research, or having little to no understanding of US foreign policy.

By foreign aid, we refer to aid that essentially goes from the poor in the US to the rich in other nations. Mubarak didn’t just magically have 75 billion dollars, nor is it to be “isolationist” to point out that political leaders in Afghanistan own 40 million dollar homes which they have received through foreign aid and children are eating dirt to survive.

You should also put forward serious questions about the credibility of organizations that have the likes of Syria and Iran in its human rights council, or that it’s fighting failing counter-insurgency campaigns in Afghanistan and breaching UN Security Council resolutions in Libya.

But we’re not able to even have a serious debate on it because partisanship has essentially handicapped us.

Comment #111: Sofia Turkan  on  01/02  at  06:38 PM

“Again, it’s very easy to reflexively dismiss arguments without actually doing a research, or having little to no understanding of US foreign policy.” Which is why Ron Paul fans pursue those strategies so frequently.

Comment #112: typist  on  01/02  at  11:13 PM

Enough!  It is simply inadequate to argue that a Paul presidency would not merely adopt a non-interventionist but an isolationist foreign policy and is, therefore unworthy of liberal support… and, oh,  by the way, he’s against Social Security and Medicare too. 

So of course we should support Obama and congressional Democrats who have, respectively, pursued and countenanced the pursuit of unchecked covert wars throughout the Middle East and serious contractions of the social services Paul wants to abolish?  Are Paul’s 10th Amendment views more offensive to Liberal’s fundamental principles than Obama’s militarization of civil justice that call for indefinite detention without due process?

Sometimes it seems that there’s no Left left in this country. A vigorous and robust Left would capitalize on the legitimate anger of Paul supporters and even Tea Partyers rather than blithely posturing, in effect, that a women’s right to choose trumps opposition to unchecked presidential discretionary slaughter of innocents abroad and Social Security is more sacrosanct than the Bill of Rights. 

How many times do we have to repeat the same mistakes? The casual dismissal of conservatism after the Goldwater repudiation in ‘64 lead directly to the evolving modern Murdochian Republicanism of Nixon, Reagan, Gingrich, Bush, Limbaugh, etc. If the Left insufficiently principled to stand up for all of it’s professed principles—even if it means challenging its own leadership—we will once again discover in a decade or two, another aggressive vibrant form of radicalism against which it is defenseless. 

There are quite a few good essays around that legitimately address Paul’s candidacy and its significance and challenge for the Left.  Two of the most thoughtful I’ve seen are here (http://www.gw.salon.com/2011/12/31/progressives_and_the_ron_paul_fallacies/singleton/)
and here
(http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/12/matt-stoller-why-ron-paul-challenges-liberals.html)

It’s past time we stopped settling for a diminishing and increasingly incoherent status quo and started demanding that all our concerns be addressed, regardless of who is discomforted.

Comment #113: Satorist  on  01/03  at  06:15 PM

@115: Spoken like someone who can’t get pregnant and has no worries that someone cared about could become pregnant or has no realistic understanding of the impact of pregnancy and believes that more than 50% of the population should vote drastically against their self-interest (to the point of possible direct impact on their health, income and lives, including whether they are alive) for the “greater good”.
That is sick and hopefully unrealistic.

Comment #114: helen w. h.  on  01/04  at  12:27 PM

@115: Okay, since you have almost perfectly misconstrued everything I wrote in order to bask in a self-satisfying glow of disapproval, let me make the point in a way you might be willing to actually consider before reflexively misinterpreting:
If Obama can so successfully and thoroughly betray many of the positions upon which he campaigned—including but not limited to the prosecution of unprovoked and unauthorized wars, assassinations, indefinite detentions and domestic spying with no due process, usurpation of congressional and judicial authority through signing statements and assertions of national security executive privilege, voluntary health care with a public option, a government negotiated prescription drug benefit, mortgage relief, major structural reforms of the financial sector and vigorous prosecution of financial law-breaking, and ending the Bush tax cuts… if he can betray all those positions with such impecable easy grace and utter impunity, why would you suppose that a women’s right to choose would be among the exceptionally few things for which he would valiantly fight?

I have no intention of advocating or voting for Paul. I will probably vote for Obama again but I’m not at all certain his defeat might not accelerate a sorely needed mutiny that is obviously needed in a party whose members are too willing to countenance the abandonment of core principles as long as their favorites are not among them—thus perpetuating the ease with which their elected leaders play off one set of single-issue absolutists against others.

Comment #115: Satorist  on  01/05  at  02:43 AM

Satorist You commented @115.
See atheist’s @110.
I am not a single-issue absolutist on most things - but there are nowhere near enoough advantages to Paul that offset the negatives.  Bsides which, half those items you listed people fooled themselves into thinking Obama was campaigning on.  He has always been a “centerist” on most issues, not a liberal.

Comment #116: helen w. h.  on  01/05  at  09:09 AM

Helen: re your comment #118 (my last comment on this topic)

Where to begin…
You assert, erroneously (easily confirmed by the simple expedient of Google), that Obama never articulated opposition to “half” of the litany of malignant policies I mentioned that he subsequently adopted—as though, if that were true (it isn’t), it would somehow be exculpatory. But you then go on to legitimate the totality of those grievances by defining them as “centerist” positions.

And you think it is other people who have fooled themselves?

Of course you do.  Anyone who would assert without the slightest trace of irony that you are “not a single-issue absolutist on most things…” clearly possesses a special talent for self-delusion.

For the record (again), it is just as fatuous to oppose Obama because he may agree with something Paul supports, as it is to assume that criticism of his policies that parallels the criticism of his opponents translates into support for those opponents. 

But the most fatuous argument by far is to oppose Paul’s military positions by attacking his anti-libertarian abortion policy or, for that matter, his ludicrous gold fetish.  Where’s the equivalency? 

Paul voted for and continues to support the AUMF, the consequences of which he now pretends to deplore and sponsored legislation to authorize Bush to put bounties on the heads of al-Qaeda members and allow private bounty hunters to hunt them down and kill them.  Perhaps he merely prefers free-market military solutions for our empirical ambitions. Some non-interventionist.

The fact is that we do have some legitimate global interests and it is to our benefit and those of other many nations to protect them. Anyone who thinks otherwise should contemplate the global economic consequence of closing the Straits of Hormuz. There is a useful debate to be joined on which of those interests are legitimate and we should, and in fact are, having it.  But whatever the outcome of that debate, it is indisputable that we don’t need a military budget in excess of the combined military budgets of the rest of the world to do it.

Comment #117: Satorist  on  01/05  at  03:10 PM

(Cont.)

Those are a few of the arguments to be made against Paul’s military posturing.  There are also effective arguments to be made against his whimsical assertions to close down five federal departments, of which even the most obvious—“How?”—is never asked. But opposition to his abortion policy isn’t relevant to them either.

Comment #118: Satorist  on  01/05  at  03:20 PM

Satorist:
it is just as fatuous to oppose Obama because he may agree with something Paul supports, as it is to assume that criticism of his policies that parallels the criticism of his opponents translates into support for those opponents. 
And I did that where?
You assert, erroneously (easily confirmed by the simple expedient of Google), that Obama never articulated opposition to “half” of the litany of malignant policies I mentioned that he subsequently adopted -
Sigh.  Sorry, you are correct; half the malignant policies mentioned here in this thread, and every time this comes up, not by you specifically.  Though, he supported healthcare reform, he was usually very careful to say he favored, not he would only support either voluntary or public option.  That was it for all of them; he was careful to favor or prefer or want, not guarantee he would champion. 
On Gay marriage: “I oppose the Federal Marriage Amendment.” “I support civil unions.” 
On abortion: “I have been a consistent champion of reproductive choice and will make preserving women’s rights under Roe v. Wade a priority as president. I oppose any constitutional amendment to overturn the Supreme Court’s decision in that case.” - note the part I underlined.
I have been disappointed in and occationally disgusted by Obama, not suprised. 
But the most fatuous argument by far is to oppose Paul’s military positions by attacking his anti-libertarian abortion policy or, for that matter, his ludicrous gold fetish.  Where’s the equivalency? 

Again, See atheist’s @110.  Specifically:
It also frustrates me when folks aren’t satisfied to describe Paul’s many bad policies, but feel the need to accuse him of not really being serious about wanting peace. Nor do I understand why this is considered necessary. Paul’s positions on economics and reproductive rights are perfectly sufficient to prevent me from ever supporting him.
There is no need to even go into detail as to why his supposed stance re military is:
1 - not really how he has voted in the past
2 - unrealistic for a globally active country (or any nation, really)
3 - even if it could be done would not save lives.
For me and others, the economics, reproductive rights, racial, education, welfare, health, etc. issues make him a non-starter as a candidate for us.  Beyond saying he is an isolationist (which is certainly debatable) rather than a peacnik and unrealistic, why linger?

Comment #119: helen w. h.  on  01/05  at  04:40 PM
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