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Next entry: How to talk to a Libertarian Previous entry: John McCain’s Rainbow Party

Sarah Palin (and John McCain) are sexist

It’s interesting watching right wingers attempt to imitate liberals decrying sexism.  Forever and ever conservatives have denied that pointing out sexism is a legitimate thing to do, because in Wingnutland, sexism doesn’t exist and anyone who says that it does is a whiny, hysterical bitch who can’t cut it with the big boys, and so hides behind sexism. In other words, they argue that the sexism card is generally pulled in bad faith.

So, of course when they pull it, it’s in extremely obvious bad faith.  We spend a lot of time analyzing why Republicans do better than Democrats in elections when their policies aren’t in most people’s best interests.  Entire books are written about it.  But the simple answer might be that they have no moral compunction about lying. Witness this “lipstick oh a pig” thing.  Everyone who is blinking innocently, pretending they’ve never, ever heard that idiom before, all in order to decry sexism are big, fat liars.  If it were me, I’d wake up in the middle of the night, wracked with guilt.  But I suspect they sleep like babies.  Maybe it has a lot to do with the way right wing politics are built on fantasies—-a combination of paranoid fantasies about liberals and weird fantasies about the idealized 1950s.  Libertarian fantasies and imperialist fantasies. Once you live your life entirely through fantasies, mere lies probably don’t seem like a big deal. 


Interestingly, it’s this right wing tendency to lie that I think draws so much liberal attention to combing over people’s language to look for sexism.  We’re looking for tells.  People know that sexism is bad, and so they have to couch it in convulted arguments (men and women are so equal and when we say women should submit to their husbands, we mean as equals!), sentimental bullshit (we’re not against women’s rights, we’re for life!), and frankly weak bullshit (we’re not against equal pay for equal work, we’re just for business’s right to pay what they want).  But their policies and ideas are sexist, but since they claim they’re not, we spend time looking for the facade to slip so we can say,  “See!  There!” 

I engage in this tactic, but have to point out that it’s severely limited.  For one thing, occasional errors in language aren’t really the best measure of what’s in someone’s heart or, more importantly, their portfolio of political beliefs.  And it shields sexist women from criticism, which conservatives take full advantage of, paying a whole entourage of women to say all the ugly things that men can’t get away with.  Like Kathleen Parker defending rape, K-Lo defending the idea that women should forced to die before they get control over their fertility, and of course, Ann Althouse expressing the belief that women shouldn’t be permitted to be seen in public while having breasts.  Sarah Palin is just another in this long line of putting lipstick on the pig of sexism. 

But here’s the thing—-Palin is a lot more sexist than Obama by any stretch of the imagination, and if you lose sight of that, then the McCain campaign’s strategy has worked on you, sucker.  Sexism, like racism, is better understood as a systemic issue, and Palin puts her full support behind sexist systems.  It’s not hard to point out how this works.  Look at Palin’s support of a ban on abortion.  If that goes into effect, and doctors are wary of treating you for miscarriage until it goes septic for fear that they’d be arrested for abortion, their actions are sexist even if their hearts aren’t.  Because the system is sexist.  Obama, on the other hand, supports reforms to the system to make it less sexist, by having the government enforce anti-discrimination legislation, for instance, or providing comprehensive sex education so that fewer young women are trapped by their fertility. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:14 AM • (137) Comments

Yeah, all the “GASP! No one’s ever used the term ‘lipstick on a pig’ before!” when McCain’s used it repeatedly, all the “GASP! I’ve never heard ‘uppity’ used in a racial context!”, it all really does come across as just cartoonishly deceitful. You can almost hear ‘em saying “Yeah, that’s the ticket!” after they speak.

At some point, the near-constant lying has got to sink in for the public, even if the press soft-pedals it. People don’t like dealing with bald-faced liars in real life—why would they want to deal with them running the country?

Comment #1: Scott  on  09/10  at  10:59 AM

Scott has it right. This would work were we in peace and prosperity and the incumbent party had 60% (hell, even 50% like they did in 2004) approval ratings.

They tried this shit with Bill Clinton in 1992 and it didn’t work. Why? Because the country was in the toilet.

Same thing this year, in 2008.

Comment #2: Ben D.  on  09/10  at  11:02 AM

I’ll say one thing, though. If Obama even hits at apologizing over this non-outrage I might break my tv set.

Comment #3: Ben D.  on  09/10  at  11:12 AM

I find it equally interesting that the Left, who decries sexism (and rightly so), is engaging in so much of it surrounding this candidate.  Everything that was complained about in the way Hillary was treated by the MSM- from focussing on her hair and clothing rather than policy to equating her femininity with weakness - is being thrown at Palin as well.  The MSM is wrong in both cases.  But the Left blogosphere is jumping in and using the same tactics now.  Very Rovelike to make the argument about the candidates personally rather than the issues, which is what is happening all over the Left blogoshpere.

Comment #4: Dr T  on  09/10  at  11:13 AM

I think that McCain’s success (such as it is) and Obama’s struggles in this election stem entirely from what you mention here.  The fact that Republicans don’t care how low they have to stoop or what kinds of lies they have to tell, or how racist or sexist or otherwise bigoted they have to be,  ends up being sort of a handicap for the Democrats, because one of our main complaints about them is that they don’t fight fair and are a bunch of bigots and liars. 

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that we shouldn’t lie, cheat, and say whatever we have to say, I just don’t think it would work for us in the way it works for them.

Comment #5: The Opoponax  on  09/10  at  11:18 AM

If he was a Repub, this incident would = macaca.
Obama would be withdrawing today.  It would be
24/7 on the MSM and blogs every day until he
was out.

What a bunch of flaiming hypocrites you guys are.

FYI, I sleep great.

Comment #6: Libertarian  on  09/10  at  11:20 AM

Yesterday.

Obama basically called Palin a pig.

Biden called on a guy in a wheelchair to stand up.

Admit it, that’s entertainment.  These guys are the
Abbott and Costello of politics.

HEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYY   BAAAAAARRRRRRRAAAAAACKKKKKKK

Comment #7: Libertarian  on  09/10  at  11:24 AM

Yes, because a common analogy is exactly the same thing as using the French North African word for “nigger”, especially when the guy using it has a mother from French North Africa.

Comment #8: Ben D.  on  09/10  at  11:27 AM

Can someone find examples of “pig” being used in a sexist way toward females?  I’ve heard the phrase “male chauvanist pig” many times before, but is there some similar usage that’s been directed at women?

Not to mention the fact that it was Palin who described herself as a “pit bull with lipstick,” so the hypocrisy coming from GOP thugs is even higher than usual.

Comment #9: John (not McCain)  on  09/10  at  11:28 AM

I sleep good because brain stops easy.  BARAK called her pig!  I like to troll left blagws.

Comment #10: Libertard  on  09/10  at  11:29 AM

Libertarian: Warui yatsu hodo yoku nemuru

You just shamelessly lied. Bad form. I didn’t see you frothing at the mouth the half-a-dozen times that McCain said “you can’t put lipstick on a pig,” so why are you whining now? Is it because you’re an idiot or merely enjoy mouthing right-wing talking points? You’re just mindlessly following along the right-wing talking-points train. That’s not “libertarianism” that’s “Republican cult lemming,” and it makes you look like an idiot.

Comment #11: Tyro  on  09/10  at  11:32 AM

Amanda I think conservative mouthpieces feel like they are in on the con.  It makes them feel smarter than the “stupid” voters to pull such a fast one.  The fact that they are being conned at the same time never enters into their pretty little heads.

Comment #12: Rob  on  09/10  at  11:35 AM

Admitting that they know damn well what “lipstick on a pig” means would imply that they should damn well be expected to know what “uppity” means.

BTW, is McCain still in this race at all?  Anybody seen unca festah?

Comment #13: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  11:36 AM

Is “monkey in a suit” a common analogy?

Jesus, this is stupid.

Comment #14: Ben D.  on  09/10  at  11:40 AM

In the same week that the McCain campaign is criticizing Obama for his support of programs that teach children to avoid child molestors, I think it would be best for the McCain supporters to hide in shame rather than trumpeting their support for such a horrible human being.

Seriously, dude: McCain is campaigning against protecting children from sexual predators, and you guys have the gall to come in here and criticize Obama over some made-up outrage that you’ve been told to promote? No. Go back into your holes—no one wants to hear about you and your support for that sleazeball.

Comment #15: Tyro  on  09/10  at  11:45 AM

And I kicked his dog, too!

Comment #16: The Left  on  09/10  at  11:46 AM

Libertarian, who reduced your dosage?

Comment #17: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  11:48 AM

Well said, Tyro.

And is someone equating Palin’s feminity with weakness? If so, I seem to have missed it among the hagiographic “tough Alaska momma” schtick (which can be its own kind of sexism, but is driven by the candidate herself so kind of a gray area, I think.)

Comment #18: Auguste  on  09/10  at  11:51 AM

“But the Left blogosphere is jumping in and using the same tactics now.”

...okay, Dr T.  We need cites — and not just one or two, we need hundreds to show that it an actual trend on not just comments from an individual bigot.

We have those regarding Republicans attitudes toward Hillary (see I can spell her name right!) — there’s 17+ years of Republican sexist attacks on Sen. Clinton to choose from. 

On the other hand, there’s not a whole lot of sexist attacks from the left against Palin. 

In fact, the most common things I’ve seen are attacks pointing out the hypocrisy between her stands on issues of interest to woman and the way she actually lives her life, which is as true of Palin as it is of Phyllis Schlafly, Laura Schlessinger, and just about every other Republican woman of any prominence…

Comment #19: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  11:52 AM

Honestly, Libertarian and Dr. T, you guys must be really, really scared.  You’re trying to argue that Obama and his supporters have employed sexist attacks against Governor Palin with people who know that this is not the case.  I assume that your hope is that if you repeat the same tired lies on liberal blogs often enough, perhaps a few readers who drop in occasionally but don’t really follow politics closely might start to assume that there must be something to your claims (otherwise why the constant repetition?).

The thing is, I think you’re in the wrong place for that tactic.  It’s been my experience from reading this blog for quite a while and commenting on it these past few weeks that Pandagon readers tend to follow politics quite closely—I mean, why else would you read a political blog, if you’re not into politics?  So you’re probably not going to be able to convince them that Barack Obama implied Sarah Palin was a pig (because we’ve watched the video, and know he didn’t) or that all criticisms of Sarah Palin are inherently sexist (because we have the critical thinking skills to recognize a hasty generalization).  I think you might do better to set up accounts to leave comments at America Online, Ain’t It Cool News, some type of Mr. Belvedere fan fiction site, or some other place that’s not devoted to discussing politics and current events; you’re likely to find more people who don’t know any better at one of those places, because those are sites devoted to subjects other than, you know, politics and current events.

Please don’t misunderstand me—it’s entertaining to read political commentary that’s limited to “Biden and Obama are the Abbot and Costello of politics!  LOL!!!!” in the midst of grown-ups seriously discussing serious issues; it sort of reminds me of that scene in Billy Madison, where Adam Sandler giggled when the teacher tells the third grade class to turn to page 69.  Of course, in that type of humor, the point is to laugh at the moron, so you may not regard that as a compelling reason to stick around.

Comment #20: Bradley  on  09/10  at  11:53 AM

Anyone got the skills to produce this one for youtube?

A decorated war veteran and long-time senator ... a state governor ... but what do you find when you look past the “images”?  (images go black and white ... blend ... morph into Karl Rove)

Karl Rove.  The man who brought us (list of transgressions against Democracy).  Is that what we want?  Another Shadow Government? (blend to Cheney)?  But this time, a shadow government run by someone that we didn’t elect?

Before you vote, shouldn’t you know exactly who you are voting for?  (fade to positive people energy fed pick of Obama and Biden in living color).

Obama/Biden 08.  What you see is who you get.

Comment #21: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  11:53 AM

Tyro, of course they’re complaining! Do you know what awful things happen when you educate kids about sexual predators? It means Republicans no longer have sex!

Comment #22: Scott  on  09/10  at  11:55 AM

OK, I’m confuzzled.  The only way that I can possibly see this as a maybe-if-you-squint-your-eyes-and-turn-your-head-just-so sexist statement is if it’s interpreted that McCain is the pig and Palin is the lipstick.  Yet somehow, people are claiming that Obama is calling Palin a pig?  WTF?

Comment #23: randomliberal  on  09/10  at  11:56 AM

Just as I suspected ... republicans hear “lipstick” and “pig” and “Sarah Palin” immediately springs to mind!

Comment #24: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  11:57 AM

I find it equally interesting that the Left, who decries sexism (and rightly so), is engaging in so much of it surrounding this candidate.

And with this, we confirm that Dr. T is not a thinking human being, but a right wing spambot.  He’s programmed to see words like “Palin” and “sexism” and generate right wing talking points, but he can’t actually read and comprehend text, or else he’d realize how moronic he sounds doing what is being called out in the post.

Worst part?  I do think that he’s a flesh and blood person.  Who has sadly allowed his brain to stop functioning as an analyzing machine and instead be turned by right wing propaganda into a spambot.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/10  at  11:58 AM

Yet somehow, people are claiming that Obama is calling Palin a pig?  WTF?

Well, dishonest people are claiming that.

Comment #26: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/10  at  11:59 AM

If he was a Repub, this incident would = macaca.
Obama would be withdrawing today.  It would be
24/7 on the MSM and blogs every day until he
was out.

Wait, have you turned on your TV recently?  It’s been getting play for the last 24 hours.  That’s a good running start.  And Macaca certainly didn’t withdraw in the face of his YouTube moment.

But that’s the difference.  YouTube.  GOoPers can wax innocent about the term “lipstick on a pig”, but YouTube makes liars of them all.  People can also review the catalog of respective works - of Obama’s grace when dealing with Hillary Clinton and the PUMAs compared to McCain’s offer to make his wife Miss Buffalo Chip.  McCain has a long and established history of anti-feminism, from divorcing his bedridden first wife to marry a woman he would later call a “cunt”, to his staunch opposition to the Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Act.  George Allen didn’t go down because of his misstatement, he went down because that singular misstatement brought his history of racially charged politics into the limelight.  McCain’s lipsticked remarks will backfire on him for the same reason, as people begin to investigate the true histories and voting records in their support of women’s issues.

Obama will come out ahead, like he always does.

Comment #27: Zifnab25  on  09/10  at  12:00 PM

This reminds me of “Bittergate” and how the media hammered on it relentlessly for a week proclaiming the imminent collapse of the Obama campaign.

The polls didn’t move a point.

Comment #28: Ben D.  on  09/10  at  12:01 PM

Cohen sez:

Actually, democrats stand against educating our children about sexual predators.  They stand for policies that actually make it discriminatory to teach our children in public about the dangers of homosexuality.

Bingo!

Do I get a prize?

Comment #29: randomliberal  on  09/10  at  12:01 PM

Actually, democrats stand against educating our children about sexual predators.  They stand for policies that actually make it discriminatory to teach our children in public about the dangers of homosexuality.

You’re a fucking moron.  Red herring, strawman, appeal to fear… Honestly, it takes a special brand of stupid to combine so many logical fallacies in just two sentences.

Comment #30: Bradley  on  09/10  at  12:01 PM

Actually, democrats stand against educating our children about sexual predators.  They stand for policies that actually make it discriminatory to teach our children in public about the dangers of homosexuality.

You know, the sexual predator who molested me when I was 4 was a member of the opposite sex and was not homosexual, so, you know, fuck you.

Comment #31: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/10  at  12:02 PM

“They stand for policies that actually make it discriminatory to teach our children in public about the dangers of homosexuality.”

Wow!  Homosexuality has exactly nothing to do with pedophilia, any more than heterosexuality does.

I guess we now know at least one major bigotry you cherish.  Asshole…

Comment #32: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  12:03 PM

Incertus,

Well, yeah, I figured the dishonest part was understood.  But still, you’d think that they’d be a little smarter about their dishonesty.

Not that I’m complaining or anything.

Comment #33: randomliberal  on  09/10  at  12:03 PM

The only real dangers of being homosexual versus being heterosexual have to do with dominant culture shaming and ignorance. 

Then again Cohen must be one of these sickwad abusers who likes to abusively describe anal sex to five year olds so he can yell FILTHY FILTHY every five words.

Comment #34: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  12:06 PM

No, I’m not referring to Barack Hussein Obama, just to the policies he stands behind.

If that’s your analogy, then your complaint is that Obama called McCain a pig and that it was OMG SO SEXIST for Obama to call McCain a pig.

You did read the whole quote from Obama, right?  McCain and his policies were being discussed, not Palin.

Comment #35: Mnemosyne  on  09/10  at  12:08 PM

Between calling Obama a sexist for using a common analogy and saying that Biden has reached “a new low” for pointing out that having a disabled child isn’t necessarily the same as supporting policies that might help disabled children it’s become scarily obvious to me that the McCain campaign’s strategy is to take offense at everything the Democrats say, hoping that some of it will stick.

I hope to Discoball that this just comes across as ridiculously whiny to most Americans, but I admit, I’m scared that too much of it will stick.

Comment #36: Av0gadro  on  09/10  at  12:14 PM

Over on a Christian blog I frequent, a rare few are taking this “pig” comment for what it is (nothing), but the vast majority are foaming at the mouth, claiming that Obama deliberately slimed Palin.

Either way, that this “scandal” exists at all (in the minds of some) just reflects how stupid we have become as a nation.

Comment #37: CHV  on  09/10  at  12:14 PM

Ohh! You said his middle name! That’s so clever, I never heard that one before!

Welcome to the internets cohen, you must be new. Do you need help setting up your AOL account?

Comment #38: Ben D.  on  09/10  at  12:15 PM

It isn’t our palates that are sensitive, Cohen, it is your head that is thick and insensitive.

Take your perverted enjoyment of describing anal sex to five year olds elsewhere, as well as your categorical hatred of Muslims.  I hear Israel is still accepting people named Cohen - oh, but then you’d have to do military service rather than just talk tough!

Comment #39: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  12:15 PM

Cohen,

While the proprietors of this here blog may have deemed it necessary to delete your hateful and really stupid comment, you will note that it still exists in about four response comments*, including one that still attaches your name to it.  So never fear, your ignorance is still out there for all to see.

/troll feeding

*unless of course the proprietors decide to delete those, too, for which I would not blame them

Comment #40: randomliberal  on  09/10  at  12:15 PM

Listen, heterosexual pedophilia is bad, but homosexual pedophilia is worse because the bible moral values dirty Europeans communism blah blah I hate liberals.

The important thing to remember is that while heterosexual pedophilia is wrong, it can still result in the beauty of God’s Gift to a woman’s uterus.  Thus, from straight child molestation we can bring forth new lives who can be brought to Jesus’s salvation in heaven.  Gay child molestation turns people away from Jesus’s holy radiance and makes good little boys and girls into atheists which is a thousand times worse than the actual act of child molestation itself.

Barack Obama knows this and is trying to turn all your kids gay, so that he can assume is rightful place as Anti-Christ of the United Communists Of Satan’s America.  John McCain and Sarah Palin are fighting to save America’s soul.  I hope you all remember that when you vote in November.

Comment #41: Zifnab25  on  09/10  at  12:17 PM

What is with this “liberals making sexist attacks thing” have to do with Pandagon?  For a long, long time now, the feminist blogsphere has differed with liberals, and that includes when they start making sexist attacks.  Amanda flat out said that Obama has had problems with sexism, and Shakesville has a damn “Palin Sexism Watch”. 

And no, I don’t think that the level of sexism on the left (and it does exist) comes anywhere close to the sexism on the right.

Comment #42: Antigone  on  09/10  at  12:17 PM

Oh, cry me a river.  Poor Cohen, being censored and criticized just for being a bigoted simpleton who spreads hateful lies, victimizes innocent people, and can’t follow rules of grammar or logic.  Boo hoo. 

And yeah, I realize I’m just giving the little cretin the attention he so desperately wants (presumably because his parents just didn’t hug him enough and he’s no closer to losing his virginity now that he’s 50 than he was when he was 40), but damn—that “protect our kids against teh gays!” shit still gets to me.  It’s that perfect combination of sanctimony and malice.

Comment #43: Bradley  on  09/10  at  12:18 PM

So antigone, you hear “lipstick on a pig” and think immediately of Sarah Palin, just like the republicans do? Or did you watch the clip in Jesse’s post?

Comment #44: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  12:20 PM

No, cohen, Bradley had it right in his earlier response to you.

Comment #45: spencer  on  09/10  at  12:23 PM

on related note. hey, how about those PUMA crew? lol

They were defending Hillary and running all over the net about choice, women’s right, etc. etc. (remember the long internet brawl?)
Then now they are going all the way for Palin.

total wtf moment.

Comment #46: blimey  on  09/10  at  12:24 PM

Alright who linked us to Free Republic?

Comment #47: Ben D.  on  09/10  at  12:28 PM

If Ms. Clinton were the VP candidate for the democrats, and John McCain had said something about giving pigs makeovers, you people would be ALL OVER IT! Just look at your OVER-reaction to the innocent word (as used by the speaker in that instance) “uppity.”

“Uppity” used there as in SNOBBY.  As in what Barack Hussein Obama is.

Comment #48: Dterm  on  09/10  at  12:32 PM

How about a new cliche for Obama contest?

You can’t put…

Mascara on a muskrat.
Eyeliner on a cockroach
???

Or, for any one of Bush’s policies that McCain will carry on:

You can’t polish a turd.

Comment #49: Hector B.  on  09/10  at  12:36 PM

Dterm: actually, McCain has used the phrase “lipstick on a pig” repeatedly, and I never heard you RAISE ONE WORD in protest.

“Uppity” used there as in SNOBBY

Uppity means “not knowing one’s place,” and that is the objection that the right wing has to Barack Obama: they believe that, by nature of his station in life, he does not “deserve” to lead. Using the term “uppity” is an act of snobbery, not an accusation of it.

Why you think that an immoral, sleazy loser like John McCain “deserves” to lead is beyond me, however: the guy just attacked programs to protect children from child molestors. I don’t want to hear any McCain supporters drone on about their criticisms of Obama… they’re in no position to attack, as their candidate is mentally and morally unfit to lead… opinions from his supporters are merely the raving of lemmings and ignoramuses.

Comment #50: Tyro  on  09/10  at  12:37 PM

Morally hazardous to our nation’s moral health?  Fuck me, you’re getting stupider by the second.  Quick!  Think of something, or your brain will stick that way!

Comment #51: Bradley  on  09/10  at  12:39 PM

Um…Dterm…There’s a couple hundred years of southern history that you’re ignoring there.  Sure, in a vacuum, “uppity” might just mean “snobby”.  But we don’t live in a vacuum, we live in the US, and in the US—and especially in Georgia—“uppity” has a very specific meaning.  It’s all about context, and not just the immediate context, but also the long-range context.

Speaking of context, I just realized why dishonest hacks are saying that Obama thinks Palin is a pig: They’re ignoring everything else that came before the line.  I’m slow.

Comment #52: randomliberal  on  09/10  at  12:39 PM

Why are you people so angry?

I think I know why- because it is infuriating to you to realize that your candidate, dressed and polished as he is, has no hope of winning.  Not now.  Americans are a fundamentally moral people solidly grounded on Judeo/Christian values, and they won’t easily fall for the Stalinist SHIT you people shovel, starting of course with your boy, Barack Hussein Obama.

Comment #53: DTerm  on  09/10  at  12:40 PM

Dterm, just like his buddy Congressman Lynn A. Westmoreland, apparently either just woke up from a coma, or thinks we did…

Dterm, BTW, I think you’re the gayest gay asshole there is.  Gay, gay, gay. 

And of course, when I say you’re gay, I can’t possibly be calling you a homosexual — and how dare you imply that I am doing so! 

I only mean you’re happy.  How could anyone possibly misconstrue calling you gay as meaning you’re homosexual…?

Comment #54: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  12:41 PM

are deeply loved by a mother and a father

who don’t want them to learn to protect themselves from sexual predators, apparently.

The bill in question was sponsored by Carol Ronen, who is Jewish, and cosponsored by Jewish dad Jeffrey M. Schoenberg, along with three Catholic moms. What kind of Jew is this “cohen,” I wonder.

Comment #55: Hector B.  on  09/10  at  12:42 PM

DTerm—You don’t know who Stalin is or what he did, do you?

Comment #56: Bradley  on  09/10  at  12:43 PM

solidly grounded on Judeo/Christian values

I didn’t think Judeo/Christian values included facilitating child molestation, like McCain’s ad advocates.

Why does McCain want to help child molestors? Why does he oppose age-appropriate sex education for kindergartners?

Comment #57: Hector B.  on  09/10  at  12:44 PM

Why do you Christianist asshats always throw the “Judeo” into “Judeo-Christian values”?  I never understood that.  I’ve never seen anyone claim that there were Jewish types at the Founding™, but y’all still throw them into your values system.

Comment #58: randomliberal  on  09/10  at  12:45 PM

I agree that various commentators are taking the \“lipstick on a pig\” line too far.

But that does not change the fact that liberals, beginning at the top with Mr. Obama, routinely dismiss Governor Palin simply because she is a successful woman with strong conservative values, on a solid moral foundation.  To me, that is far more offensive of any stupid one line \“lipstick on pigs\” comment that was probably not even meant for Palin.  What offends me, and ought to offend you if you really cared about women as you claim to, is that fact that liberals simply think Palin is an ignorant, yes, PIG. 

Shame on you people for seeking to destroy America!

Comment #59: Jeff Sams  on  09/10  at  12:46 PM

”...they won’t easily fall for the Stalinist SHIT you people shovel, starting of course with your boy, Barack Hussein Obama.”

...and I’m sure your use of “boy” in that context doesn’t mean anything either, right asshole?

Lets face it.  Over the years I’ve sadly been around people who wish they were old enough to have been using firehoses on Civil Rights marchers in the ‘60s.  You’d be right at home among those despicable “human” beings…

Comment #60: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  12:49 PM

Hector:

The family should teach such things in the home, so that the child can be taught in the setting most amenable to the families religious beliefs and moral values.

Comment #61: Jeff Sams  on  09/10  at  12:49 PM

I seem to recall an incident (although the details escape me) where LBJ used the word “nigger” in conversation, then immediately apologized for it.  It was his habit, in other words, but he was trying to go beyond his extremely racist cultural background.  The point being:  someone may be personally racist or sexist due to the ambient culture and/or their upbringing, yet battle that impulse in themselves.  The language of hate can even slip out at random times, but their work (by which we have to judge them) is in favor of ending such hate.

Personally, I think we are *all* racist and sexist (to a greater or lesser extent) because of our ambient culture and upbringing.  However, some of us are able to acknowledge that fact and try to get beyond it.  Obama still will say stuff like “sweetie” at inappropriate moments. (I, alas, sometimes slip on that one too, and am trying to improve!) But the point Amanda is trying to make is that we have to look at people’s *actions as well as* their words—-is the person trying to dismantle the systems of sexism and racism, or is that person upholding the system in thought, word, and deed?

We should try to eliminate sexist language, but I don’t think Obama’s “lipstick on a pig” comment even falls into that category.

Comment #62: V. Bacfarc  on  09/10  at  12:49 PM

Jeff Sams, there is nothing offensive or sexist about believing that Palin is an unqualified, unknowledgeable, fanatic with unaccpetable political views who needs to be kept far, far away from Washington, DC. The fact that you are offended by this only shows that you are clueless about the true nature of McCain and Palin and are only relying on Republican propaganda.

Furthermore, as the invented outrage over the “lipstick on a pig” expression goes, it is more prove that Republicans themselves are morally and mentally unfit to lead, as only idiots or immoral liars could be pushing this talking point. I want neither in the white house, and that’s why our energy is being poured into defeating the immoral, unqualified, uninformed liars mccain and palin.

Comment #63: Tyro  on  09/10  at  12:50 PM

“What offends me, and ought to offend you if you really cared about women as you claim to, is that fact that liberals simply think Palin is an ignorant, yes, PIG.
Shame on you people for seeking to destroy America!”

...and now we’re getting troll parodies?...

Comment #64: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  12:51 PM

Why are you people so angry?

I can’t speak for anybody else, but I’m angry because my country is illegally occupying another country, people in my country have to go without proper medical treatment, education is underfunded, and the Republican candidate for president wants to preserve the status quo while spreading lies about the opposing candidate, a man who at least wants to change these realities.

Why are you so hateful?

Comment #65: Bradley  on  09/10  at  12:51 PM

“I can’t speak for anybody else, but I’m angry because my country is illegally occupying another country, people in my country have to go without proper medical treatment, education is underfunded, and the Republican candidate for president wants to preserve the status quo while spreading lies about the opposing candidate, a man who at least wants to change these realities.”

I’m right there with you, Bradley…

Comment #66: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  12:54 PM

No, I know the true nature of McCain/Palin.  I don\‘t think McCain has very strong religious values that will inform his policy-making, but I do admire Palin for hers.  We need a strong, deeply spiritual person to lead this country who is not afraid to stand firm on his morals, and whose policies are informed by his values, even religious values.  Not one that will blow in the wind, this way and that, with every liberal policy that aims to destroy the sanctity of the American home and family.  I believe Palin is that sort of person, even if McCain is lacking.

And I, and people like me, are going to do everything in our power to ensure that pro-family policies continue to be the norm in America.  That is why I fight and fund the fight for proposition 8- a measure that MUST pass.  And that is why I fight for McCain and Palin, myself and many, many others.  We will not stop until we win. And we will win.

Comment #67: Jeff Sams  on  09/10  at  12:55 PM

“And I, and people like me, are going to do everything in our power to ensure that pro-family policies continue to be the norm in America.  That is why I fight and fund the fight for proposition 8- a measure that MUST pass.”

Fuck off, you fucking bigot.  Concentrate on you own dick and stop trying to decide what everybody else can/should do with their own genitals. 

As a born and raised Californian, I can say that the Cal Supreme Court decision legalizing gay marriage is one of the proudest moments I’ve had regarding government in this sate in decades.

For your sake I hope there is a hell, and I hope you and the rest of your bigoted friends are all there together…

“And that is why I fight for McCain and Palin, myself and many, many others.  We will not stop until we win. And we will win.”

If you win, I hope you enjoy your Gilead.

Everybody with an IQ over 100 will leave and let you bigots and your perfect society rot…

Comment #68: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  01:04 PM

I know that it has historical appeal to elect the first black man as president, but just because he is black and a novelty is not good enough reason to vote for him.  It’s like seniors in high school electing an ape or another animal as class president just for kicks.  It’s fun and novel, but eventually, someone has to actually lead this country.

Comment #69: MP08  on  09/10  at  01:04 PM

Jeff Sams, McCain and Palin have a track record of poor judgment and poor decision-making. Their policies have consistently been ones which make it harder for American families to make ends meet and leave them vulnerable. You’re not supporting “pro-family” policies, you’re supporting a pair of ignorant, malicious people who have no idea what they’re doing and have a track record of being wrong on major issues.

Not to mention that McCain openly opposes programs to teach children how to avoid child molestors. Why you think that this is admirable or “pro-family” is beyond me.

Comment #70: Tyro  on  09/10  at  01:05 PM

MP08 = More troll parodies…

Comment #71: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  01:07 PM

Amanda sez: “combing over people’s language to look for sexism

Why is nobody discussing the elephant in the room? That was a cheap way to score political points, referring to McCain’s combover. When are we going to make progress on the real issue - hairstylism?

Comment #72: factbased  on  09/10  at  01:07 PM

To hop on board with Jeff Sams, McCain and Palin are generally seen as the balm in Gilead.  There is balm in Gilead, but it will not remain if libs are allowed to implement their forced income redistributing, anti-family, anti-religion policies.

Comment #73: MP08  on  09/10  at  01:07 PM

It is clear that the people around here support a one party system.  You practically want to kill anyone who differs from you.  We are all stupid proles who bow to the superior wisdom of Barack Hussein Obama and his rabid supporters.

Comment #74: J. Thomas  on  09/10  at  01:15 PM

<blockquote>t

Comment #75: Auguste  on  09/10  at  01:15 PM

I think we’re talking about different Gileads here, MP08.

Relatedly, why you gotta kill a great hymn like that?  It’s one of the few that I still like from my Christian days.

Also relatedly, how is it that someone who has consistently (too consistently in my view, but I don’t run this show) related his Christian experience, and who has been accused by folks on the other side of being either a radical black liberation Christian or a radical Muslim type can be considered “anti-religion”?

Comment #76: randomliberal  on  09/10  at  01:16 PM

Amanda wrote:

But here’s the thing—-Palin is a lot more sexist than Obama by any stretch of the imagination, and if you lose sight of that, then the McCain campaign’s strategy has worked on you, sucker.  Sexism, like racism, is better understood as a systemic issue, and Palin puts her full support behind sexist systems.

Is this a statement that, in effect, if anyone disagrees with your ideas about what constitutes the better interests of women, they are, ipso facto, sexist?  And if the answer is yes, does that mean that there is no room at all for debate as to what constitutes sexism?

Comment #77: Dana  on  09/10  at  01:21 PM

“It is clear that the people around here support a one party system.”

...as opposed to you and yours whose definition of non-partisan is supporting both MoneyCons and SocialCons.  We can have any party we want as long as it Republican.  Great thinking there sport…

“You practically want to kill anyone who differs from you.”

...projection is so ugly…


“We are all stupid proles who bow to the superior wisdom of Barack Hussein Obama and his rabid supporters.”

We don’t know if you’re proles or not.  But if you’re not millionaires and you think McCain/Palin represent your interests, you certainly meet the common definition of stupid…

Comment #78: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  01:22 PM

Why are you people so angry?

Because racist fuckwits like you still exist?

We will not stop until we win. And we will win.

“Tomorrow belongs to me…”

To hop on board with Jeff Sams, McCain and Palin are generally seen as the balm in Gilead.

Parody troll does not know his/her literature.

Comment #79: Doug H. (Fausto no more)  on  09/10  at  01:22 PM

Obama took exactly the right stance this morning in his appearance at a high school on this manufactured outrage by the Lipstick on a Pig remark…which I thought was wonderful because besides the old meaning it was a dig at Palin.

He mocked the McCain campaign’s faux outrage and basically said there are too many serious problems facing this country to engage in tomfoolery like this…he was absolutely perfect, cutting it off at the knees, and I don’t think the Corporate media will help it walk anymore…C

...C

Comment #80: wagonjak  on  09/10  at  01:29 PM

“We need a strong, deeply spiritual person to lead this country who is not afraid to stand firm on his morals, and whose policies are informed by his values, even religious values.  Not one that will blow in the wind, this way and that, with every liberal policy that aims to destroy the sanctity of the American home and family.  I believe Palin is that sort of person, even if McCain is lacking. “

You believe Palin is a man?  I know anti-American scumbags like “Jeff Sams” are capable of believing in ridiculous things, but that really is a new low.  What a sexist pig you are.

Comment #81: John (not McCain)  on  09/10  at  01:31 PM

That is why I fight and fund the fight for proposition 8- a measure that MUST pass.

And yet it won’t, because most Californians are not interested in policing what goes on in the bedrooms of consenting adults.  Most of us aren’t interested in peeking into our neighbor’s windows to see what they’re up to.  Most of us don’t really care what consenting adults do together as long as they don’t scare the horses in the streets.

Prop 8 is going to lose, because most Californians don’t think that all gay people are evil monsters by definition.  Unlike you.

Comment #82: Mnemosyne  on  09/10  at  01:32 PM

Remember my proposal: Ban all trolls and ban all people who respond to obvious trolls, no matter how much of a regular they might be.

Comment #83: norbizness  on  09/10  at  01:35 PM

“It is clear that the people around here support a one party system.”

Oh, boo-hoo, you’re just pissed off that Bush screwed up your plans for a permanent Republican majority.  If you were projecting any harder, we could put you to work at AMC.

Comment #84: Mnemosyne  on  09/10  at  01:35 PM

The way I understand this working is that a lot of conservatives don’t *get* sexism; it looks to them as if complaints about sexism are arbitrary and capricious, and just used to assert power or shield against criticism.  Now that they’re running a woman for VP, they’re throwing out accusations of sexism in the way they think feminists do—only they don’t have much of an idea as to what’s sexist and what’s not.  So “lipstick on a pig” in relation to McCain can get called out, because lipstick=woman=Palin and because of the joke she made.  (Personally, I think “lipstick on a pig” is a problematic expression in general, but I don’t see Obama’s usage as specifically targeting Palin.)  Conservatives airing their sexual fantasies about Palin, though, is hunky-dory, because after all isn’t that a compliment?

Comment #85: jfpbookworm  on  09/10  at  01:36 PM

“And yet it won’t, because most Californians are not interested in policing what goes on in the bedrooms of consenting adults.”

I’m fascinated by the implication that Massachusetts and Canada have collapsed because of legal gay marriage.  Why must California’s move toward reason be stopped and not where it’s already been legal for years?...

Comment #86: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  01:36 PM

“Ban all trolls and ban all people who respond to obvious trolls, no matter how much of a regular they might be.”

...sorry norbizness, I’m in a really bad mood and feel like fighting today…

Comment #87: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  01:38 PM

MikeEss, I’m with you—a native Californian who was really proud of my home state that day.  The end of the road is coming for the increasingly anachronistic anti-gay bigots.  I believe that when my daughters (currently in the fetal stage) are grown, they will be astonished to learn that Americans were once discriminated against just because of whether they were attracted to men or women. 

Dana:  Yes, Amanda has a set of ideas about women’s best interests, and she believes that her ideas are correct.  She also believes that people who disagree with her ideas are wrong.  Shocking, isn’t it?

Comment #88: Gator90  on  09/10  at  01:41 PM

Aw, but norb, we’re having so much fun burning the ants with a magnifying glass ...

Okay.  Fine.  Back on topic.  I see that McCain has lost Nedra Pickler with this ploy.  And Mark Halperin, too.

What is McCain going to do without the media to prop him up and pretend that his whiny complaints are actual issues?

Comment #89: Mnemosyne  on  09/10  at  01:50 PM

I’ve noticed that Paglia and Althouse, neither a right winger, both feel pretty good about Palin’s feminist cred.  They are both probably going to vote for Obama (definitely Paglia).

<i>Dana:  Yes, Amanda has a set of ideas about women’s best interests, and she believes that her ideas are correct.  She also believes that people who disagree with her ideas are wrong.  Shocking, isn’t it? <i>

The problem is that she doesn’t just think they are wrong.  That would not satisfy her.  They must be demonized as evil, nasty, stooopid people.

You guys don’t seem to get why this is so entertaining.  As someone (conservative,  not me) said at Althouse, this is your (liberals) sandbox, we’re just playing.  These stupid PC rules are your construct.  You love this sort of demonizing people based on one statement, or a joke. 

Somehow, this year, first with Obama/Clinton we had Dem’s throwing race card/sexism at each other, and now it’s continued with lib treatment of Palin.  It’s bizarre, all the dirty tricks/strategy you guys are used to using against Repubs (and libertarians), is coming back at you, and you’re squirming. 

Yeah, it sucks.

Comment #90: Libertarian  on  09/10  at  01:56 PM

Is this a statement that, in effect, if anyone disagrees with your ideas about what constitutes the better interests of women, they are, ipso facto, sexist?  And if the answer is yes, does that mean that there is no room at all for debate as to what constitutes sexism?

I think defining feminism as “the better interests of women” is not quite on point.  If that were the definition, then anyone could come along and say, “Well, I think it is better for women, for their best interests, to stay home and submit to their husbands.” In fact, plenty of far right patriarchal types say EXACTLY that, but they are still clearly sexist even if they profess to have the best interests of women at heart.  Indeed, throughout history, many, many, many sexist policies have been justified as being in the “best interests of women” (such as,  banning women from certain professions or jobs deemed too dangerous for women).

Sexism and feminist are not about the best interest of women, but about women’s equality.  A sexist may believe or profess to believe that he cares about what is in women’s best interest, but he does not think women have a right to equality.  Palin seems to be in that sexist mold in many ways because she opposes abortion and even allowed her police chief in Wasilla to charge women for rape kits.

Comment #91: Margaret  on  09/10  at  01:57 PM

I’ve noticed that Paglia and Althouse, neither a right winger, both feel pretty good about Palin’s feminist cred.

Excuse me while I dissolve in laughter at you trying to claim that Paglia and Althouse are not right wingers.  When everything you do and say is in support of the right wing, it doesn’t matter if you call yourself an “independent” or a “libertarian.”  You’re a right-winger who realizes that admitting that makes you look bad, so you scrounge around to find another word that might fool people into thinking that you don’t support every policy the right wing vomits up.

Comment #92: Mnemosyne  on  09/10  at  02:03 PM

Man, it’s like Focus on the Family, Operation Rescue, the KKK, and the Legion of Doom had a team-up, and the best idea they could come up with to destroy the forces of good in the world was to come to Pandagon and say outrageously stupid things.  This method is somewhere between loitering in a 7-11 parking lot saying abusive things to passersby and scribbling on a men’s room wall “Obamma is a homoe” in terms of effective ways to promote a cause.

Comment #93: Bradley  on  09/10  at  02:03 PM

Nmem

Paglia has already announced she’s voting for, and loves, Obama.

Althouse voted Kerry, Gore, etc, and will surely end up voting Obama, even though she seems to trash him every day.

Comment #94: Libertarian  on  09/10  at  02:10 PM

Bradley is right about one thing.  Hanging around here at Pandagon is like spending too much time in a nasty men\‘s room along the highway somewhere.  I need a shower…

Comment #95: J. Thomas  on  09/10  at  02:18 PM

Well, if Paglia and Althouse said it, it must be true!

Of course, you have to consider that their support for Obama is irrelevant here. The point is that these two women never miss an opportunity to try to discredit or undermine feminism, so their claim that Palin has feminist cred is not exactly credible.

Comment #96: Margaret  on  09/10  at  02:22 PM

Well Dana, when Amanda and other feminists talk about sexism, they are usually talking about a system that denies women social and economic power, as well as the right to self-determination. Statements or actions supporting that system are sexist. If your beliefs or anyone else’s beliefs about what constitutes “the better interests of women” deny women social power, economic power and the right to self-determination, than yeah, that’s sexist and no, there isn’t any room for debate. That’s about as ipso facto as it gets. It is empirically undeniable that people of all genders are better off with social power, spending power to meet their needs and the right to exercise agency over their own lives. Any belief in “better interests of women,” that suggests that they would be better off without these things is both inherently contradictory and empirically false. Not wanting to debate this is not a problem for liberals and feminists. That conservatives and misogynists wish to debate it suggests that there is a motive which differs from providing the best possible opportunities and quality of life for women.

Comment #97: grolby  on  09/10  at  02:27 PM

“Hanging around here at Pandagon is like spending too much time in a nasty men\’s room along the highway somewhere.”

...don’t let the intertubes smack your ass on the way out…

Comment #98: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  02:32 PM

“Hanging around here at Pandagon is like spending too much time in a nasty men\’s room along the highway somewhere.  I need a shower…”

That’s mostly because the monkeys coming over here to spread hate and lies today don’t have the intelligence or basic decency to not smear their waste on the walls.  Thankfully, the discourse here is usually much, much more mature and sophisticated.

Comment #99: Bradley  on  09/10  at  02:34 PM

McCain and Palin are generally seen as the balm in Gilead

Someone set us up the balm!

You know what you doing?

Comment #100: Sour Kraut  on  09/10  at  02:53 PM

Please quit responding to cohen.  He’s been banned for calling Obama a racist slur—-for real, not for pretend—-and you’re just encouraging him.

Comment #101: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/10  at  02:53 PM

What - is it some sort of national day off for all of the Christian High Schools to visit the Rethug Right “Think"Tanks and help the interns with their work today?

I wonder if all these lovely children want their moms to know the things they are writing?  IP logging happens, you know!

Comment #102: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  03:25 PM

Not to mention that McCain openly opposes programs to teach children how to avoid child molestors. Why you think that this is admirable or “pro-family” is beyond me.

Well, here’s the problem: when freaked out homophobic wackjobs launch into tirades about men having sex with men in front of their young children, complete with graphic descriptions, they don’t want those kids to get sufficiently grossed out to report it as the inappropriate abuse that it is!

Of course it is all the homo’s fault: if it weren’t for gay families, they wouldn’t have to “explain” why it is so wrong that jimmy has two dads!

Comment #103: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  03:30 PM

Huckabee on Hannity:

“When you listen to it in full, it is clear he wasn’t talking about Palin…it’s an old expression.”

Comment #104: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  03:33 PM

I wonder what the reaction would’ve been if Obama said you can’t put lipstick on a pitbull.  I actually kind of like it, might use it myself, especially to make fun of this noncontroversy.

Comment #105: keshmeshi  on  09/10  at  04:03 PM

Good for Huckabee! I would never vote for the man but at least he is showing some integrity.

Comment #106: Margaret  on  09/10  at  04:24 PM

“Lipstick on a pig” trolls are happier than pigs in shit, even as they try to sell the nation a pig in a poke.

Comment #107: FlipYrWhig  on  09/10  at  04:36 PM

Lipstick on a troll?

Comment #108: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  05:01 PM

A Book by McCain’s former press secretary

Comment #109: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  05:13 PM

Gator wrote:

Dana:  Yes, Amanda has a set of ideas about women’s best interests, and she believes that her ideas are correct.  She also believes that people who disagree with her ideas are wrong.  Shocking, isn’t it?

No, but that isn’t what I asked.  Everyone believes that their ideas are the right ones, or they’d change their ideas.  I asked if, by Amanda’s definition, whether she believes that people who disagree with her are, by definition, sexist.  Amanda wrote an entire book decrying the evils of sexism and misogyny without ever defining either term; I bought and read the book, and while it’s always possible I missed something, I was looking for those definitions.

Comment #110: Dana  on  09/10  at  05:15 PM

Ooops, she was a Pentagon (pandagon?) press secretary.

Comment #111: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  05:15 PM

The problem is that she doesn’t just think they are wrong.  That would not satisfy her.  They must be demonized as evil, nasty, stooopid people.

You guys don’t seem to get why this is so entertaining.  As someone (conservative, not me) said at Althouse, this is your (liberals) sandbox, we’re just playing.  These stupid PC rules are your construct.  You love this sort of demonizing people based on one statement, or a joke.

Somehow, this year, first with Obama/Clinton we had Dem’s throwing race card/sexism at each other, and now it’s continued with lib treatment of Palin.  It’s bizarre, all the dirty tricks/strategy you guys are used to using against Repubs (and libertarians), is coming back at you, and you’re squirming. 

Despite the fact that you’re wrong, there is *just* enough truth in this to make this whole exchange entertaining.

Comment #112: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/10  at  05:17 PM

Dana - I’ll talk real sloooowww here:

Sexism: beliefs and/or actions that treat women as inferior to men for any reason in any way.

Misogyny: hatred of women and/or anything female, feminine, etc.

Comment #113: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  05:23 PM

Grolby wrote:

Well Dana, when Amanda and other feminists talk about sexism, they are usually talking about a system that denies women social and economic power, as well as the right to self-determination.

Then it sounds to me like y’all have won.  Sarah Palin and her husband started a business, and made a success of it.  Mrs Palin ran for city council, and no one was the least bit surprised that a woman would run for office, because it has happened so many times before.  When Mrs Palin ran for mayor, she was no pioneer: there are female mayors all over the country.  When Mrs Palin was elected governor of Alaska, it was no big deal, because, when she was inaugurated, she was one of nine women who held statehouses at the time, and something like the thirtieth woman governor in our history.  The system not only did not deny Mrs Palin power, it now has become pretty much unremarkable for women to seek, and win, elective office.

Comment #114: Dana  on  09/10  at  05:24 PM

“Everyone who is blinking innocently, pretending they’ve never, ever heard that idiom before, all in order to decry sexism are big, fat liars. “

Apparently the hysterics at ginmar’s HAVE never heard the phrase, since, even though it was aimed at <u>McCain’s</u> policies, took a hard turn in their imaginations and landed on Palin.  But their little fangirl hearts are still bruised, so reasoning is still beyond their remit.

Comment #115: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  09/10  at  05:25 PM

You’re right, Dana.  Sexism is over, never to be seen again.  Just like that.

There’s no racism anymore either, right?...

Comment #116: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  05:28 PM

You know, I’ve always thought that Huckabee had integrity.  I think his ideas are dangerous and bad for America, but I always felt like he operated from an intellectually honest place—he honestly believed that his bad ideas were good for the country.  Frankly, I find that type of conservative easier to talk to—he’ll never convince me that his vision for America is right, but when both sides come to the table and have an honest discussion, there’s at least the possibility for common ground.

Not so with McCain, or any of the blithering trolls who have shown up here today.  These people can’t have an honest discussion, because they’re fundamentally dishonest people.  They will say or do anything in order to hold onto power because they actually hate those who disagree with them.  So they’ll promote a lie (“Obama suggested Palin was a pig” or “Gay people with the right to marry will molest children”) because they feel (probably correctly) that doing so is the politically expedient way to codify their hatred into legislation. 

Liberals, by and large, are different.  Not all liberals, mind you—some can be just as nasty and dishonest as the Republicans charging Obama with sexism.  But not many.  And it’s because liberals, as a rule, are not hateful.  We’re angry.  There’s a big difference.

The rightwing press likes to throw around the phrase “angry liberal” as if it’s an epithet.  But it’s not.  Anger isn’t a vice; it’s a virtue.  If injustice and brutality doesn’t make you angry, then you’re at best an imbecile and at worst a total sociopath.  Anger—when channelled correctly—promotes positive social change.  Without anger, we wouldn’t have had the American Revolution, women’s suffrage, the abolitionist movement, the civil rights movement, feminism, the peace movement, or—today—affirmative action, LGBT rights demonstrations, or third-wave feminism.  So to those who use “angry” as an epithet, I ask—in all seriousness—“Why do you hate Thomas Jefferson?”

But anger is fundamentally different from hate.  Anger is a rational response, hate is completely irrational.  Anger is the right of the oppressed and their sympathizers, hate is the privilege of the oppressor when he learns of the oppressed’s anger.  Hate is what we see and hear from the likes of William Luther Pierce, David Duke, Jesse Helms, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Reilly, and anybody who would make the ridiculous assertion that Barack Obama is a racist.  Anger is the result of an honest examination of the world, whereas hate relies on a dishonest affirmation of the hater’s “right” to self-centered narrow-mindedness.

So… yeah.  I don’t think Mike Huckabee is hateful, even though the ideology he espouses is hateful.  I think that he strives to conduct himself with honesty and integrity, which indicates to me that he might be reasoned with in a way that John McCain and his army of loyal Internet ditto-heads simply cannot be.

Comment #117: Bradley  on  09/10  at  05:35 PM

  So… yeah.  I don’t think Mike Huckabee is hateful, even though the ideology he espouses is hateful.  I think that he strives to conduct himself with honesty and integrity, which indicates to me that he might be reasoned with in a way that John McCain and his army of loyal Internet ditto-heads simply cannot be. 

 

And this is exactly why I love my conservative friends.  They’re batshit crazy for the most part, but they’re also intelligent, reasoning, and, most importantly, sincere.

Comment #118: INTPagan  on  09/10  at  06:25 PM

Remember how everyone at the RNC loved Palin’s line about the difference between a pitbull and a hockey mom (“lipstick!”)?  Ah, that was cute!

But I suppose don’t need to illustrate a double standard in action when the McCain campaign provides examples on a daily basis.

Comment #119: Informis  on  09/10  at  06:30 PM

Hey, pit bulls are TOTALLY way more okay than pigs.  I mean, they, you know, bite and stuff, and aren’t fat, and being fat is bad if you’re a female, so that’s definite, and they’re also furry…but that’s not okay if you’re a chick…um…well.  Hell.

I give up on the twisted logic.

Comment #120: INTPagan  on  09/10  at  06:33 PM

...and the saddest thing about this flap is, Obama was talking about *McCain.* 

Who the hell is this Palin-person, anyway? She produces propaganda and raises money.

McCain/Coulter ‘08: “I can’t believe it’s not George W. Bush!”

Comment #121: serena kitt  on  09/10  at  06:54 PM

No, I know the true nature of McCain/Palin.

Their true nature?  Well, come on, don’t be shy, let us in on the secret.  They’re vampires, aren’t they?  I knew it!

We need a strong, deeply spiritual person to lead this country who is not afraid to stand firm on his morals, and whose policies are informed by his values, even religious values.

Yey.  Let’s hear it for people who talk to their imaginary sky daddy.

By the way, genius, everyone has values and everyone’s values inform their decisions.  It’s just that some of us ground our values in fact and compassion, and some of you let your big book of fairy tales inform your decisions.

Not one that will blow in the wind, this way and that, with every liberal policy that aims to destroy the sanctity of the American home and family.

The sanctity of the home!  Oh, nosy-woesies.  Why, if Obama gets in office, gangs of the gays and lesbians will invade the homes of nice homosexual married couples and introduce them to the joys of sex where the parts match.  *Faints*

And I, and people like me, are going to do everything in our power to ensure that pro-family policies continue to be the norm in America.

Pro-family?  You mean universal health care, generous paid family leave, equal pay for equal work, and other pro-family, liberal programs?  Didn’t think so.  Funny thing that.  Christofacist pro-family policies ignore actual families, preferring to obsess on the fit of genitalia and keeping uppity women barefoot and pregnant. 

That is why I fight and fund the fight for proposition 8- a measure that MUST pass.

“Teh Gay, teh gay, oh, Lord, I can’t stop thinking about the Gay,” whines Jeff.

You Christofascists spend a lot more time thinking about gays (sex), then actual gay people do.  Perhaps it’s time to come out of the closet.

Comment #122: Adobedragon  on  09/10  at  07:01 PM

In response to my comment:

Then it sounds to me like y’all have won.  Sarah Palin and her husband started a business, and made a success of it.  Mrs Palin ran for city council, and no one was the least bit surprised that a woman would run for office, because it has happened so many times before.  When Mrs Palin ran for mayor, she was no pioneer: there are female mayors all over the country.  When Mrs Palin was elected governor of Alaska, it was no big deal, because, when she was inaugurated, she was one of nine women who held statehouses at the time, and something like the thirtieth woman governor in our history.  The system not only did not deny Mrs Palin power, it now has become pretty much unremarkable for women to seek, and win, elective office.

Mr Ess replied:

You’re right, Dana.  Sexism is over, never to be seen again.  Just like that.

Wasn’t a career like Mrs Palin’s exactly what feminists wanted?  She climbed the ladder, reasonably steadily, in electoral politics, and the voters apparently treated her like another candidate, than as a woman candidate.  Yet here we have a thread which seems to say that Mrs Palin cannot have any opinions independent of the Certified Women’s Issues Positions. a thread which treats her not as a governor, but as a woman governor.

Comment #123: Dana  on  09/10  at  08:15 PM

Darlin’—- (I’m from Montana, folx; it’s a totally unisex appellation.)
You think - explicate - and write better every time I look up.
Well argued. Lovely,  little scary too.

Comment #124: has_te  on  09/10  at  08:49 PM

Shorter Dana: Woe is us, they’re not voting with their genitalia!

Comment #125: Rebecca  on  09/10  at  08:50 PM

The family should teach [kindergartners the difference between good touch and bad touch] in the home, so that the child can be taught in the setting most amenable to the families religious beliefs and moral values.

The biggest problem with this idea is that 1/3 of the time, the molester turns out to be a parent, usually the father. So much for that family’s moral values.  Half of the time, the molester has an established relationship with the child: friend, acquaintance, or relative other than parent. Does the average parent realize when Uncle Bill is grooming their kid?

[This didn’t sound like a mere troll, but as something widely believed.]

Comment #126: Hector B.  on  09/10  at  09:26 PM

all I can say is that I’m really looking forward to the mass hysteria when a democrat talks about making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear

Comment #127: ol cranky  on  09/10  at  09:27 PM

Ahh…I finally have a working definition for sexism. It means being against abortion. It’s nice to see now that I and anyone else who believe in the legal protection of all human life, even if we support every other item in the NOW platform, are by definition sexist.

Comment #128: Feminist for Life  on  09/10  at  09:28 PM

Ahh…I finally have a working definition for sexism. It means being against abortion. It’s nice to see now that I and anyone else who believe in the legal protection of all human life, even if we support every other item in the NOW platform, are by definition sexist.

I’m iffy on the subject and always will be because of the implications on things like contraception (which tends to come with abortion for some reason, although they are not the same thing), but I feel you.  I don’t vote pro-life because the candidates are batshit crazy, but, as a pagan who believer in “an it harm none,” I would rather err on the side of caution (with the exception of incest and risk to mother’s life), and resent being considered anti-woman whenever I say that I reverence all life.

I am neither pro-life nor pro-choice, and anyone who knows me would attest that I am fairly radically left on all other issues.

Comment #129: intpagan  on  09/10  at  09:35 PM

“It’s nice to see now that I and anyone else who believe in the legal protection of all human life, even if we support every other item in the NOW platform, are by definition sexist.”

Thanks for sharing that, Serena Joy…

Comment #130: MikeEss  on  09/10  at  10:11 PM

Ah feminist for life, what you ARE is a working definition of misogyny!

Comment #131: Ms Kate  on  09/10  at  10:11 PM

Dana:

Wasn’t a career like Mrs Palin’s exactly what feminists wanted?

Isn’t that sort of like asking “Wasn’t a career like Mr. Stalin’s exactly what Bolsheviks wanted?”

The answer, Dana, is that if your entire career is dedicated to destroying the very people who made it possible for you to have a career in the first place, then pretty much by definition, no, your career is not exactly what those people wanted.

She climbed the ladder, reasonably steadily, in electoral politics, and the voters apparently treated her like another candidate, than as a woman candidate. Yet here we have a thread which seems to say that Mrs Palin cannot have any opinions independent of the Certified Women’s Issues Positions. a thread which treats her not as a governor, but as a woman governor.

What this thread “seems to say” to you is far more indicative of what you think of Palin than of what we think of her. No one around here has said that Palin isn’t entitled to believe whatever load of steaming bullshit she wants. What she doesn’t get to do is to use feminism as a smokescreen for the exact opposite of feminism. The only people who fall for that crap are fuckhead morons like you.

Comment #132: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  09/10  at  10:29 PM

I might be a little late to the game here, but I felt the need to respond to Ms. Kate.

No, I didn’t think that Obama was talking about Palin.  It was fairly clear that he was talking about McCain’s policy.  I think that phrase is a little borderline, but it wasn’t aimed at Palin.

What I was saying is that a) Obama isn’t perfect when it comes to sexism, and that he has been called on it in the feminist blogsphere and b) that it’s dishonest to say that the feminist blogsphere has been inconsistent about this when Shakesville has set up the Palin sexism watch to address this in particular.

And, seriously, I’m out of the soup (for this thread).  People from conservative sites do not come here to argue in good faith.

Comment #133: Antigone  on  09/10  at  11:38 PM

As someone at Sadly,No pointed out, if “lipstick on a pig” actually referred to any actual Republican person wouldn’t it be better suited to Guiliani?

Comment #134: RobW  on  09/11  at  02:23 AM

The lies are justified by the exultation of the fantasies into a reality obtainable but for the enemy. That one of the ways authoritarianism works. If only it weren’t for the Jews! If only it weren’t for the enemies of the people’s revolution! All will be well once the followers of Goldstein are crushed! America would be great if it weren’t for liberals fucking things up!

And so those groups must be stopped, says the authoritarian, by any means necessary.

Comment #135: me  on  09/11  at  09:13 AM

“...Palin is a lot more sexist than Obama by any stretch of the imagination…”

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

Comment #136: Snoop-Diggity-DANG-Dawg  on  09/11  at  09:31 AM

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

Go to your room.  The grown-ups are talking.

Comment #137: Bradley  on  09/11  at  10:53 AM
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