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Next entry: Why driving “adult services” off Craigslist is a bad idea Previous entry: For shame, St. Edward’s

Sarah Palin doesn’t believe in coincidences

Update, Part Two: Sarah knows way more than me about all this.  Like me, she thinks there was a story inside that Vanity Fair piece that was basically ignored, and she digs in.  Read the whole thing—-Palin’s Pentecostal beliefs are a big influence on her thinking. 

Update: On Twitter, Sarah Posner let me know that Pentecostals have an investment in this idea, too, and that’s likely where Palin got it.  Good to know.  I want to be very clear that there’s more than a little cross-pollination of ideas in the world of fundamentalists.  The biggest takeaway from this is that Palin is particularly good at swiping ideas and repositioning them to flatter her own ambitions and sensibilities.

This item is a little old, but that’s what happens when you have a three day weekend you’re trying to catch up on.  But it’s still important.  There was a lot of justifiable criticism of the Michael Joseph Gross piece about Sarah Palin in Vanity Fair.  It was full of flashy but ultimately meaningless crap, it engaged in sexism, and it avoided real analysis of important issues. (Though I do think that the fact that Sarah Palin is likely a temperamental monster as soon as a door shuts is important and interesting information, though her viciousness is generally on display in her public persona.) But I want to pull out one discovery Gross made that he didn’t grasp the importance of.  To be fair to him, a little googling showed that it passed most people by.  It’s this part:

Palin has often stated that the strokes of luck propelling her political success were divinely ordained: “There are no coincidences” is a favorite maxim.

He then goes on to make generic statements about Christian tradition, not even pausing to note how much Palin’s egotistical statements echo those of all sorts of charlatans of the Christian right before her.  But what he doesn’t get is that this “coincidences” stuff has a very specific pedigree in American fundamentalist Christianity—-it comes from the Christian Reconstructionist movement, a movement that unabashedly calls for America to be transformed into a Christian theocracy, and claims this was the intention of the Founders. 

When I was doing the research for my piece on the influence of Christian Reconstructionism on Sharron Angle’s worldview, one thing that Julie Ingersoll, who is writing a book about the movement, mentioned to me is that they don’t believe in coincidences.  Or, to be more specific, they are Calvinists and therefore believe in predestination, which means not only that they believe your salvation is a matter of fate, but so is everything that happens.  How this comes out colloquially amongst believers is the maxim, “There is no such thing as coincidences.” 

Why this is interesting is that, without this religious context, Palin’s little quip makes no sense.  Of course it’s not a coincidence that she rose to prominence.  The word “coincidence” wouldn’t generally be in play—-maybe you might say “accident”, if you wanted to reduce a complex set of circumstances to a maxim.  A coincidence is a very specific kind of occurrence, and this isn’t it.  She’s only using “coincidence” because “There are no coincidences” is a favorite maxim of hers.  And that, as a religious maxim, comes from our modern-day Calvinist Christian Reconstructionists. 

Which isn’t to say that Palin is a Reconstructionist, which is something whiny conservatives claimed I was saying about Angle, because they couldn’t deal directly with my actual arguments.  There’s really very few ways to know if someone shares their beliefs, because they’re pretty secretive about it.  (Which is probably why so many wingnuts have accepted that people could have “secret” religious beliefs, and therefore project that notion onto the President.)  But what is absolutely obvious is that whether or not any individual right wing fundie is a pre-millennialist or a post-millennalist, the beliefs of Reconstructionists inform their worldview. 

Still, I’d be lying if I didn’t think the “there are no coincidences” thing was kind of weird.  Your workaday evangelical fundie doesn’t, as far as I know, have a lot of investment in the idea of predestination.  That’s more the world of the Reconstructionists.  It’s no small thing that Palin has adopted that as her motto, implying that she shares an interest and faith in the idea of predestination.  Maybe she only believes it for herself, that she’s some kind of Chosen One.  But as I noted in the Slate article, Palin’s ties to the Alaska Independence Party were alarming for more than the fact than they were a secessionist group.  It’s also because they’re a branch of the Constitution Party, which is openly Reconstructionist and demands that America become a Christian theocracy.  I suspect she has more than a a passing familiarity with that world, though it’s most likely that she, the ultimate opportunist, just takes what she wants from them and leaves the rest behind. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:48 AM • (69) Comments

For what it’s worth, that expression is also really common around some 12 step territory.

Comment #1: round guy  on  09/08  at  10:40 AM

It may be a Christian Reconstructionist motto, but it’s also the kind of thing an egotistical lunatic would believe about herself.  As a general rule, people who claim to have personal relationships with Jesus tend to think highly of themselves.  I don’t need to choose between her political insanity or her overly-inflated ego to determine that this woman needs to be defeated in whatever endeavor she strives for.

Comment #2: 3letterjon  on  09/08  at  10:42 AM

To amplify the first two comments, this “God has a plan for my life” shtick is a cliche of the a-historical and a-theological world of American megachurches and seems to have more in common with Napoleon Hill than with Calvin.

Comment #3: Steve LaBonne  on  09/08  at  10:49 AM

I don’t quite understand how the Constitution Party can call themselves that with a straight face when they clearly have so little love for most of it…

Comment #4: BrianX  on  09/08  at  11:01 AM

Well, they do in their minds, though.  They think that the Constitution was written in a way to establish the kingdom of god on earth that would bring Jesus back.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/08  at  11:06 AM

I’m not sure not believing in coincidences is necessarily indicative of a belief in predestination. It appears more to be a belief that God is working with you to support your every move, which in turn may only happen if you do what God wants you to do in the first place. So you still have a choice of actions, in this worldview - you can do what you want, in which case your world will spiral down into chaos and debauchery; or what God wants, in which case he’ll help you along. It’s not necessarily a problematic view in and of itself; the problem stems from extending it beyond the personal sphere, such that God’s desires for you become God’s desires for the world, and so God calls you to impose your, I mean God’s, values on the world.

It doesn’t really stand up to critical thinking at that last step, but then many evangelicals really don’t seem to be that hot on critical thinking.

Comment #6: livingartist  on  09/08  at  11:14 AM

I agree, and say so in the post—-it doesn’t necessarily mean anything specifically.  Hell, she’s not the brightest bulb, you know?  She probably doesn’t know what she means by it.  But what’s interesting to me is she has lifted a workaday maxim and employs it on a regular basis.  I think Palin spends a lot more time immersed in the world of the Christian right than she lets on.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  09/08  at  11:16 AM

Well, it’s part of the whole-cloth narcissism we Americans suffer from. While I don’t suppose that it’s beyond impossible for an omnipotent deity to find time to deeply care about the personal workings of every single Christian on the face of the planet, when team A is praying just as hard for that touchdown as team B, it’s a little hard to believe that God really gives a shit about all of this petty crap.

There’s a reason that the only new religion to be created on American soil is basically an excuse for people to do whatever the hell they want under the guise of a “revelation from God” and that most of the adaptations of existing religions involve creating some sort of close personal bff-relationship with God. We really have allowed the notion that we’re the center of the universe to permeate our culture, and we see this in everything: we declare that God COULDN’T have made something in X way, because X way is confusing and makes our head hurt, and who the fuck does God think He is anyway, being all smart and shit?  So, evolution? No. DNA and adaptive genetics is just too complicated to think about, so we were sprung completely formed from dust with no intermediate steps.

The Tea Party Movement is very deft at inventing new realities within the echo-chamber, and creating harmonies to that reality. Obama’s birth certificate issue, the one that 1/5 of Americans believe? Marries nicely with the new “terror babies” freak-out. After all, if people point out that it’s ridiculous to believe that a woman would fly here, have a baby, and then raise it to be a secret muslim terrorist, you can always stamp your feet and declare that of course it’s possible, it’s already happened, and the product of that in the white house right now. So of course these realities they invent for themselves will be ordained by God. Sarah Palin can’t be expected to accept the fact that she’s riding a collective desire on the part of middle-aged men to bang the hawt naughty librarian look she’s rocking because she’s incoherent on the best of days. No ... she’s like, ordained by God, and stuff .... to like, restore honor to America and be Patriotical.

Comment #8: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/08  at  11:27 AM

Your workaday evangelical fundie doesn’t, as far as I know, have a lot of investment in the idea of predestination.

Yes, they do.  Calvinism - well, a greatly mutated and bastardized version of Calvinism - has pretty much won the day when it comes to conservative American Christianity.  They do believe in predestination, even if they don’t give it that name.  Even those traditions that had been most influenced by Arminius and Wesley - Methodists, Salvation Army, Nazarenes, Wesleyans, Assemblies of God, etc. - have, through the same type of homogenization found in fast food and retail, bought into the basic precepts of fundamentalist Calvinism.

The main reason I see for this is that it gives them an excuse for why Christianity is losing ground: God chooses who will be Christians and who won’t.  It’s certainly not their fault.  It’s just that God is choosing fewer and fewer people as time goes on.

Comment #9: Stephen Suh  on  09/08  at  11:33 AM

“Sarah Palin doesn’t believe in coincidences”

...and I don’t believe in Sarah Palin.  So there…

Comment #10: MikeEss  on  09/08  at  11:33 AM

The usually annoying but occasionally perceptive Harold Bloom wrote a very instructive book called “The American Religion” about precisely the phenomenon Mighty Ponygirl describes. Whatever this stuff is, it’s certainly not Christianity as any premodern Christian would have understood it. Bloom argues, somewhat persuasively,  that it’s a lot closer to Gnosticism.

Comment #11: Steve LaBonne  on  09/08  at  11:33 AM

“She probably doesn’t know what she means by it.”

This is what I take away from everything Sarah Palin says.

As you mentioned above, she’s good at taking bits & pieces from different sources and applying them to her view of the world. Although, to me, “there are no coincidences” does seem hugely egotistical. It seems to say to me, “I was born to do this/be here at this specific time”. I suppose she thinks it means that she’s worked for everything she has, but we know that isn’t the case.

Comment #12: Mark  on  09/08  at  11:35 AM

Palin has often stated that the strokes of luck propelling her political success were divinely ordained: “There are no coincidences” is a favorite maxim.

As any Christian more mature than a 22 year old should know, sometimes God’s plan and these non-coincidences are not all about you. It’s easier to think otherwise when your luck is good, though.

But what’s interesting to me is she has lifted a workaday maxim and employs it on a regular basis.  I think Palin spends a lot more time immersed in the world of the Christian right than she lets on.

I am sure she is steeped in the culture and mindset of “inspirational” books and Christian self-help, which is fairly mainstream, and that most of her audience recognizes her references and dog whistles of this saccharine culture. “God has a plan for you” is the first step of an evangelical pitch.

Comment #13: Tyro  on  09/08  at  11:37 AM

“Maybe she only believes it for herself, that she’s some kind of Chosen One.”

I’d buy that, she seems to have one hell of a high opinion about herself.  But the real question is:  “Chosen” for what?

Unless we become the fascist regime we’re headed toward faster than I fear, it’s really difficult to imagine a scenario where enough Americans have so completely lost their minds that they could elect her POTUS.  And she’s making so much money throwing rocks from the sideline it’s hard to imagine that she’d be willing to tolerate the demands of the office if she did somehow get it. 

She couldn’t handle being governor of a tiny population in a huge state, a population much smaller than even “medium”-sized cities.  I could easily imagine her getting-off on the pseudo-royal aspects of being POTUS (much like Bush Jr.), but the work is still work, and apparently of no interest at all to her…

Comment #14: MikeEss  on  09/08  at  11:54 AM

Calvinism - well, a greatly mutated and bastardized version of Calvinism - has pretty much won the day when it comes to conservative American Christianity.  They do believe in predestination, even if they don’t give it that name.  Even those traditions that had been most influenced by Arminius and Wesley - Methodists, Salvation Army, Nazarenes, Wesleyans, Assemblies of God, etc. - have, through the same type of homogenization found in fast food and retail, bought into the basic precepts of fundamentalist Calvinism.

Just to show how American it is, as the Roman Catholic Church in America has become increasingly conservative, I’ve started seeing predestination-like beliefs popping up in people who have stayed with the church, even though it’s literally a heresy to mix Calvinism and Catholicism.

Comment #15: Mnemosyne  on  09/08  at  11:55 AM

Reminds me a little bit of the Palin-as-Esther idea, which people started talking about last year.

http://thephoenix.com/boston/news/86569-from-jester-to-esther/

Comment #16: Samus  on  09/08  at  12:13 PM

The whole ‘no coincidences’ thing is also at least partly a class thing. The Leaders of the World can’t accept the fact that their position is mostly a sperm lottery. They need to have some sort of reason or meaning behind it, because they are invested in their position being one they gained through righteousness and hard work, even though that’s laughable to anyone with a brain.

Comment #17: BlackBloc  on  09/08  at  12:17 PM

Bloom argues, somewhat persuasively, that it’s a lot closer to Gnosticism.

Any claim of a “personal relationship with God” is de facto Gnosticism (not to mention high hubris and, perhaps, clinical schizophrenia).

Comment #18: Sarcastro  on  09/08  at  12:40 PM

Any claim of a “personal relationship with God” is de facto Gnosticism (not to mention high hubris and, perhaps, clinical schizophrenia).

There is a tendency in our media to take people on the right at their word as to motivations, and to assume “normalcy”—that their ideas fall somewhere in the “mainstream” and the individuals involved are all psychologically healthy. And so we get stories in the media about people who are concerned that the Park 51 cultural center is potentially a haven for terrorists, not stories about irrationally frightened individuals expressing bigotry and ignorance. I’d really like like to see the major media move away from asking not “do these people have a point” and instead asking “why are they so distanced from reality?”

Comment #19: Theron  on  09/08  at  12:56 PM

“There is a tendency in our media to take people on the right at their word as to motivations, and to assume “normalcy”—that their ideas fall somewhere in the “mainstream” and the individuals involved are all psychologically healthy.”

I wonder how much of this acceptance of the “honesty”/“genuineness” of opinions on the right is a subconscious assumption that Reichwing nuts are too stupid to have guile…?

Comment #20: MikeEss  on  09/08  at  01:14 PM

@Comment #20: MikeEss on 09/08 at 11:14 AM

I wonder how much of this acceptance of the “honesty”/“genuineness” of opinions on the right is a subconscious assumption that Reichwing nuts are too stupid to have guile…?

I think its much simpler: our chickenshit media is scared of annoying conservatives, therefore they will bend over backward to make crazy racist horseshit sound sane.

Comment #21: atheist  on  09/08  at  01:21 PM

Three thoughts-

1) @Mnemosyne: There’s been a startling amount of evangelical ideas popping up in Catholicism as it’s become more conservative.  The Left Behind books and concern about the Rapture is something you see more and more, even though, again, it’s actually heretical.  Fundie beliefs are just right-wing American Christian beliefs, it seems.

2) Predestination might be a more Calvinist view, but the idea of God having a plan and guiding your life and everything being purposeful is pretty standard American Christianity.  I don’t have a wealth of research to back this up, just my experience in the Bible belt, but that was the standard belief amongst most people you encountered.  Saying, “There are no coincidences,” isn’t much different from saying, “God has a plan,” or, “Everything happens for a reason,” or anything else to express the idea that life isn’t entirely random.  And while it is a startlingly egotistical thing to say, as is the idea that we have to be the ones that live in the end times, I’d imaging most people who say those things are not very egotistical and would be surprised if someone made that connection- they think they’re being all humble.

3) And even saying that, I think you’re reading way too much into that quote.  I’ve heard that expression lots of times, from lots of different types of people, with pretty much no consideration of what it means.  Regardless of its origins, today it can just be a common expression, one that she’s turned into a mantra because she’s an egoist and thinks the world revolves around her.  But that’s not a shocker to me.

Comment #22: acallidryas  on  09/08  at  01:43 PM

Its kind of cruel but this cracked me up

Once, while shopping at Target, a man saw Palin and hollered, “Oh my God! It’s Tina Fey! I love Tina Fey!” When other shoppers started laughing, the governor parked her cart, walked out of the store, and drove away.

Comment #23: pharmakos  on  09/08  at  01:45 PM

A friend of mine used to live in Wasilla and ran into Palin during the campaign. After shaking her hand, the friend pulled out a bottle of hand sanitizer…

Comment #24: BrianX  on  09/08  at  02:17 PM

Someone mentioned above about the seeming irony in the Constitution party wanting to make the US a theocracy. Well the silly bit about separation of church and state is in the first AMENDMENT to the constitution, and the constitution party believes the constitution was written by god. You can’t just go amending the word of God like that.

At least this is what the people at the county fair who tried to recruit me believed. I didn’t have the patience to stick around and ask whether this voids the 2nd amendment as well.

Comment #25: alysia  on  09/08  at  02:20 PM

The year my cat died, a comet crashed into Jupiter.

There are no coincidences, I’m told.

Comment #26: rea  on  09/08  at  02:30 PM

BrianX—A favorite picture I have of a friend of mine is one he took at a Palin rally: he’s turned toward the camera, with Palin speaking to a crowd of people in the background, and he has the most devilish “if only they knew” smile on this face.

Comment #27: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/08  at  02:36 PM

The “God must be telling me something” bit, which is the flip side of “no coincidences”, has been around in fundagelical circles since at least the 80s. Back when Frances Fitzgerald was interviewing a lot of fundie figures, she reported that the language took such a hold on her imagination that when someone rear-ended her at a red light, she thought for a moment, “Is this a sign about something from god?”

If you really believe in an omnipotent deity, though, it’s not really a stretch to think that that deity has an interest in what every individual does. Remember, G*d is uncountably infinite (aleph at least 2), so even if there were a countably infinite number of people, the deity would still have an infinite amount of attention to spare for each and every one of them. Talk about micromanagement.

Comment #28: paul  on  09/08  at  03:00 PM

paul, when you think about it, there’s a certain economy to believing that God is personally steering the ship.

A friend raised pentecostal told me how the members of her church would invent bizarre stuff in order to give themselves faith boosts. For example, if you found a feather lying on the ground, it was PROOF AN ANGEL WAS WATCHING OVER YOU and not proof of, you know, birds. I think they had invented a similar thing involving pennies. All I could picture was a bunch of people calling their friends in ecstasies because a starling shed a dirty feather on their lawn. Anything bad that happened to you was nothing but a test of faith (or the work of satan) so that you could be rewarded with good stuff later and point out that the only reason you have anything good is because you have such an awesome relationship to Jesus.

Hey, it worked for Pangloss. Syphilis is a small price to pay for chocolate.

Comment #29: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/08  at  03:16 PM

There’s been a startling amount of evangelical ideas popping up in Catholicism as it’s become more conservative.  The Left Behind books and concern about the Rapture is something you see more and more, even though, again, it’s actually heretical.

Well, you can’t expect the Inquisition to worry much about Protestant heresies these days. They’re too busy hunting down gay priests, liberation theologists and people who think women ought to have the right to be ordained.

In the meantime, in a gesture of good will to our Evangelical friends, our Catholic theologians are really busy updating the Bible so that Jesus sits at the right hand of God while Mammon sits at his left hand.

Comment #30: BlackBloc  on  09/08  at  03:18 PM

(BTW, I always wanted to start an anarcho black metal band named Mammon Usurping Heaven.)

Comment #31: BlackBloc  on  09/08  at  03:24 PM

Ponygirl:

And of course whatever you do in screwing up or screwing over other people is also part of god’s plan for you and them.

Comment #32: paul  on  09/08  at  03:27 PM

“Your workaday evangelical fundie doesn’t, as far as I know, have a lot of investment in the idea of predestination.”

Even the ones who’d buck it if you tried to tell them that everything about their lives had been mapped out in advance and there was no changing it tend to be pretty deeply dug into the idea that god has A Plan for You and that there’s something fairly specific that you’re supposed to be doing in any given life situation.

“A friend raised pentecostal told me how the members of her church would invent bizarre stuff in order to give themselves faith boosts.”

A friend of mine’s family recently left a church over a new pastor who seemed categorically unable to refrain from attributing a good turn of events to capital-M, with-an-exclamation-point Miracles! after a week or so had gone by.  Like, the church lawnmower refusing to turn on until someone thought to put more gas in it turns into a full-blown hallelujah-praise-Jesus miracle in time for the next sermon.

Comment #33: preying mantis  on  09/08  at  03:32 PM

The “God must be telling me something” bit, which is the flip side of “no coincidences”, has been around in fundagelical circles since at least the 80s. Back when Frances Fitzgerald was interviewing a lot of fundie figures, she reported that the language took such a hold on her imagination that when someone rear-ended her at a red light, she thought for a moment, “Is this a sign about something from god?”

Animism with only one spirit.

Once, while shopping at Target, a man saw Palin and hollered, “Oh my God! It’s Tina Fey! I love Tina Fey!” When other shoppers started laughing, the governor parked her cart, walked out of the store, and drove away.

I wonder if a concerted effort to show up at her rallies with “Can we have your autograph, Tina Fey?” signs would cause her to publicly lose her shit?

Unless we become the fascist regime we’re headed toward faster than I fear, it’s really difficult to imagine a scenario where enough Americans have so completely lost their minds that they could elect her POTUS.

Seriously?  Have you forgotten where you were ten years ago, and where you are now?

Comment #34: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/08  at  03:46 PM

I was just having this conversation this morning… and about how terrifying these types are. And how it seems that no one who calls themselves “chrisitian” is willing to take a stand against these types and the types that are howling for muslim blood.

And how it all leads back to why I’m an atheist after growing up with this type of crazy.
Ai yi yi.
Thanks for more good reading Amanda.

Comment #35: Danica Lefse Queen  on  09/08  at  03:52 PM

Argh! If I had a billion dollars a shit ton of it would go to funding secular organizations!!!Were not Iran Palin!

Comment #36: BeanS  on  09/08  at  03:53 PM

... I think people will find that the idea that there is a meaning or a plan behind the seemingly random happenings of life is an underpinning of a lot more than right-wing Christianity. I mean, my god, have you seen How I Met Your Mother? The main character sincerely believes that he’s been predestined to find a specific mate and that the universe will deliver her through the workings of Fate. Is it an incredibly creepy worldview? Yes. Is it common? Well, how many people have said the phrase “everything happens for a reason” to you during your life? Were they all evangelicals?

It’s one of those quasi-theistic ideas that I’ve only recently kicked myself, so I’m hyperaware of it. I think in Sarah Palin’s case it totes means that she thinks the universe wants her to be super special for super special reasons, though, and in Sarah Palin’s case “the universe” actually means “baby Jesus”.

Comment #37: purpleshoes  on  09/08  at  04:04 PM

“Seriously?  Have you forgotten where you were ten years ago, and where you are now?”

In any normal poll, Palin gets something like 15% positives, and something like 40-50% negatives.  (I don’t have the exact figures, don’t feel like looking them up, and besides, you’re the librarian, right?)

Yes, we’re blessed with many clueless idiots who think Palin is Ronnie Raygun with a vagina, but “many” is relative.  If she really managed to win the Republican nomination (which is far from guaranteed), she probably couldn’t win in the general election.

(keeping my fingers crossed…)

I’m still thinking that Li’l Jebbie Bush is going to take a serious shot, either in 2012, or 2016.  Newtie’s going to try (won’t make it), Rudy’s dead meat, The Huckmeister is scary (watch him), Romney wants it (but the Mormon thing won’t fly with the FundNuts), Pawlenty’s a dark horse, etc.  Against all that Bush Son #2 might have a decent chance…(god I hope not…)

Comment #38: MikeEss  on  09/08  at  04:06 PM

Haley Barbour has the 2012 nomination wrapped up.  You heard it here first.

Comment #39: Punditus Maximus  on  09/08  at  04:22 PM

“Everything happens for a reason” is another version of “no coincidences”, and it seems to be a common notion held by Americans.

I could see it functioning as code for a number of fundamentalist/reconstructionist attitudes or positions, but basically it’s just a encapsulation of a Calvinist notion of the deity. Calvinism stresses God as a being of Will over all else (rather than, say, a being of Reason), and a radical divergence of divine nature from human.

(Despite Jesus and being made in the image and all that, Calvinist/fundies theologians will emphasize God as *not like* us—the utter incomparability of the omniscient and omnipotent and perfect to us corrupt, finite humans.)

Double-particular election (DPE) is part of the general authoritarian image of the Deity in the Calvinist/evangelical tradition.

(DPE is where God both choses individually whom he will save *and* whom he will damn—what Amanda’s calling “predestination” here, even though the general notion of predestination is already in Augustine, and not an invention of Calvin’s per se; a less harsh, more humanly sensible doctrine of election might be that God wills all in general to be saved, but judges some in particular to be damned).

Voltaire did a nice of job of calling bullshit on the notion that nothing’s accidental, that God foreordains with absolute and utter precision the motion of every atom.  “Shit happens” is sounder philosophy than “everything happens for a reason”. The former makes adults responsible for making what improvements we can; the latter is the foundation of theocracy and despotism.

Comment #40: wapsie  on  09/08  at  04:24 PM

In any normal poll, Palin gets something like 15% positives, and something like 40-50% negatives.  (I don’t have the exact figures, don’t feel like looking them up, and besides, you’re the librarian, right?)

Yeah, it looks really really unlikely right this minute.

But think back to 2000 - would you ever believe American politics in 2010?

The effects of a war with Iran or another big attack might put you right over the edge.

Comment #41: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/08  at  04:37 PM

“But think back to 2000 - would you ever believe American politics in 2010?”

I have to say, while I watched the Bush Jr. / Darth Cheney administration like a slow motion car wreck I knew would happen, even I didn’t think we’d be debating whether “waterboarding” is torture and when it’s appropriate to use it (one small example), or whether crushing a child’s testicles is okay to get a prisoner to talk (another small but disturbing example)...

“The effects of a war with Iran or another big attack might put you right over the edge.”

True enough.  If we start war with Iran, pretty much all bets are off.  I figure the odds are pretty good that if a Republican POTUS declared martial law in the wake of something like that, a sickeningly large percentage of Americans would go along with it without saying a word.  Who needs democracy and a free press when there’s a Great Leader who can do all the decidering for us and tell us everything we need to know?  North Korea, here we come!...

Now if a Democratic POTUS did it, we’d have a revolution…

Comment #42: MikeEss  on  09/08  at  05:01 PM

Haley Barbour?

If a Hollywood director was filming a script that called for a snarling racist redneck sheriff for a scene where he sets dogs on black people trying to vote and runs over an old lady just for the fuck of it , Haley Barbour is who central casting would send over.

Comment #43: JennyLI  on  09/08  at  05:08 PM

ponygirl, you have it exactly right.  When good shit happens to you, they call them “god-incidences.”  When bad shit happens to you, the devil did it.  When bad shit happens to other people, god is punishing them.  It’s pretty remarkable that they can hold this all together in their brains, instead of seeing how self delusional it all is.

Comment #44: jackspratt  on  09/08  at  05:13 PM

wapsie @ #40:  The former makes adults responsible for making what improvements we can; the latter is the foundation of theocracy and despotism.

This gives them an excuse not to fix problems or work to make a situation better…. G*d ordained it in his master plan, who are we to change his plan?

Comment #45: PurpleGirl  on  09/08  at  05:23 PM

I have to say, while I watched the Bush Jr. / Darth Cheney administration like a slow motion car wreck I knew would happen, even I didn’t think we’d be debating whether “waterboarding” is torture and when it’s appropriate to use it (one small example), or whether crushing a child’s testicles is okay to get a prisoner to talk (another small but disturbing example)…

MikeEss, I have a very specific memory of the first time I heard the idea of torture accepted publicly. It was very soon after 9/11/2001 (probably the next week). I was at the gym in the early afternoon and saw CNN hosting a talking-heads discussion of whether torture would be okay to stop another terrorist attack. Everyone seemed to think this was a perfectly reasonable conversation to have. I was so upset I couldn’t see straight and had to quit working out. It shocked hell out of me; I had never in my life heard torture mentioned as anything but a terrible, un-American thing, and here it was being coolly discussed as a justifiable, normal thing, in the middle of the day on a mainstream news outlet.

Looking back, that was when the real insanity started. It was right after 9/11 that invading Iraq started being discussed as an obvious thing to do, too.

I’m more frightened of my fellow Americans’ reaction to another terrorist attack than I am of the attack itself. Last time, the majority of the country completely lost touch with reality for several years. Invade Afghanistan? Sure! Invade Iraq for no apparent reason? Absolutely! Torture anyone suspected of terrorism? Don’t mind if I do! And anyone who was like “WTF? No!” was a totally unserious dirty hippie.

So yeah. I worry that another attack could get us President Palin.

Comment #46: snowmentality  on  09/08  at  05:34 PM

Vanity of vanities. All is vanity:

“I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.”

(And just how did that Book - rank with Epicureanism and dripping with Cynicism - even get in the Bible!?)

Comment #47: Sarcastro  on  09/08  at  05:50 PM

Once, while shopping at Target, a man saw Palin and hollered, “Oh my God! It’s Tina Fey! I love Tina Fey!” When other shoppers started laughing, the governor parked her cart, walked out of the store, and drove away.

You know, any reasonable person with a sense of humor could have played along and come off looking good: “yeah, gotta get back to the set of 30-Rock, that Alec Baldwin’s a real handful if I’m away too long…” If she can’t even handle that relatively harmless bit of razzing, how could she possibly handle the clusterfuck that is the presidency?  W looks positively thick-skinned by comparison.

Comment #48: Captain Bathrobe  on  09/08  at  06:03 PM

but jackspratt, it’s more than just that. Truly good shit in your life tends to be a little on the rare side. I mean, we can’t get promotions and good news every day to thank the Lord about, can we? So they invent shit to stand in for truly good news. Like finding a feather or a penny. You may not be having a particularly exceptional day, but if you happen to find a jay feather outside the Piggly-Wiggly, it’s like holy shit angels are watching over me while I pick up a Otter Pops from the Piggly-Wiggly, PRAISE JESUS. So everyday stuff can have that little kick of divine heroin to it.

I suspect this stuff has to get crazier every day because, like I said, there’s a certain economy to it. If it doesn’t keep getting more and more intense and special and jesus-filled, then they might have to take a moment to think about what they need in their life. And that could be bad. So the next thing you know finding a crumpled-up empty bag of Doritos is proof that… um…. (give me a minute) .... that JESUS WANTS YOU TO ENJOY COOL RANCH GOODNESS.

Comment #49: Mighty Ponygirl  on  09/08  at  06:09 PM

or example, if you found a feather lying on the ground, it was PROOF AN ANGEL WAS WATCHING OVER YOU and not proof of, you know, birds.
Comment #29: Mighty Ponygirl on 09/08 at 02:16 PM

LOL.  Mighty Ponygirl wins the thread.

Everything happens for a reason.  There are no coincidences.  That’s because everything is totally mechanistic (if humans do it) and deterministic (if God does).

This is the same philosophical structure that makes most modern physics impossible to understand for such people.  It should have been no surprise when in 2007 Schlafly updated the Conservapedia article on Relativity to suggest it to be some kind of heresy.  I dealt with it years before from a homeschooling fundy co-worker who was trying to teach his son Physics without understanding it.

Either it’s a particle or it’s a wave, stop fooling around!  Your velocity can’t possibly vary depneding on the POV of the observer, that makes no sense!  (actual things he said to me)

Statistics is equally unbelievable to them.  If smoking kills you, how come my grandpa lived to 102 and smoked like a chimney?

If you don’t have random chance, you have to make up a God, who has his own reasons, which we’re not allowed to understand. 

In reality of course it’s because there’s no there there, nothing to “understand” about why the coin landed tails or Schrodinger’s cat did a backflip.

Comment #50: oldfeminist  on  09/08  at  06:54 PM

Remember, G*d is uncountably infinite (aleph at least 2)

“But it’s a two-penny universe to begin with,” Rogge said, from behind a cloud of newborn smoke.  “There’s no scope to it.  It’s certainly no more than ten billion years old at the outside, and already it’s dying.  The space-time bubble may or may not continue to expand forever, but before long there won’t be anything it it worth noticing.  It’s ridiculously finite”

“So is man.”

“Granted, Charles, but man has already made that heritage look stupid.  We’ve thought of things that utterly transcent the universe we live in.”

“Number, I suppose.”

“Numbers, indeed,” Rogge said, unruffled.  “Transfinite numbers.  Numbers larger than infinity.  And we live in a universe where they don’t appear to stand for anything.  A piece of primer work, like confining a grown man in a pram.”

I looked back at the wireless.  “We don’t sound so grown up to me.”

“Oh, you’re not grown up, Charles, and that holds true for most people.  But a few men that shown what the race could do.  Look at Cantor:  he thought his way right out of the universe he lived in.  He created a realm of numbers which evolve logically out of the numbers the universe runs on—and then found no provision had been made for them in the universe as it stands.  Which would seem to indicate that Whoever created this universe knew less math than Cantor did!  Isn’t that silly?”

F.Y.I.  by James Blish

Comment #51: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/08  at  07:07 PM

Predestination might be a more Calvinist view, but the idea of God having a plan and guiding your life and everything being purposeful is pretty standard American Christianity.

That’s my point; Calvinism has become standard American Christianity.  Like other commenters, I’m also fascinated at how the Roman Catholic Church has been infected with it.

Comment #52: Stephen Suh  on  09/08  at  07:08 PM

If you don’t have random chance, you have to make up a God, who has his own reasons, which we’re not allowed to understand. 

I’d have more respect for them if they believed they weren’t allowed/able to understand God. The thing is that for them, Jesus is their best friend, and everything that happens to them is *a special message from Jesus made just for them*. So they’re not even that comfortable with things that happen for reasons they cannot and will never understand: instead they spend their time making up reasons. Particularly ones that prove how special that are.

Comment #53: Tyro  on  09/08  at  07:26 PM

Tyro:

That’s an important insight, and used to be one of the differences between catholicism and fundamentalist wingnuttery. (It’s also, of course, the point of the entire effing Book of Job. But that would require reading the damn bible.) You see this particularly in the fact that some jesuits are still willing to call creationism and intelligent design out as blasphemy. (Why blasphemy? because both doctrines are essentially arguments from personal inability to comprehend how life might have evolved to a demand that the deity have interfered in a particular way.)

Comment #54: paul  on  09/08  at  08:13 PM

You sometimes wonder if the bicameral mind didn’t actually break down for many people…

Comment #55: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/08  at  08:27 PM

@paul

But that would require reading the damn bible.

I think a lot of them do read it (maybe not all or even most, but more “reading” than just parroting quotations from Bible Verse of the Day Calendars or whatnot), but the problem is that they “literally” interpret what they read the same way they interpret Mighty Ponygirl’s angel feather.

Comment #56: Atheist, A Feminist  on  09/08  at  09:27 PM

Atheist: they read, but they don’t read. Look at the whole abomination thing, where everybody has no trouble with eating clam strips or wearing poly-cotton blends, only with queers. Yet those prohibitions are right next to each other. It’s a sort of literalness punctuated by outbursts of “don’t bother me with the facts!”

Comment #57: paul  on  09/08  at  09:43 PM

I’m just wondering, if all these things happen because God wants them to, isn’t Obama’s election to the Presidency also Divinely inspired?

Comment #58: Woody25  on  09/08  at  10:06 PM

You sometimes wonder if the bicameral mind didn’t actually break down for many people…

No, they’re about at the stage when the Babylonians were compiling lists of omens and spells against demons:

Jaynes further argues that divination, prayer and oracles arose during this breakdown period, in an attempt to summon instructions from the “gods” whose voices could no longer be heard.[3] The consultation of special bicamerally operative individuals, or of casting lots and so forth, was a response to this loss, a transitional era depicted for example in the book of 1 Samuel. It was also evidenced in children who could communicate with the gods, but as their neurology was set by language and society they gradually lost that ability. Those who continued prophesying, being bicameral according to Jaynes, could be killed.[6][7]

Of course, sometimes it works the other way around:

Lady Claire Gurney: How do you know you’re God?

Jack Arnold Alexander Tancred Gurney, 14th Earl of Gurney: Simple. When I pray to Him, I find I am talking to myself.

Comment #59: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/08  at  10:10 PM

I agree with Stephen Suh - I think this aspect of calvinism has infected a large swath of American Christians.  Some “Christian” asshole actually pulled the “Everything happens for a reason” when my neice was diagnosed with leukemia.  I am never a violent person, but I really wanted to punch that asshole.

Comment #60: kitten parade  on  09/08  at  10:16 PM

@kitten parade—I have actually resolved to start doing so.  Enough already.

Comment #61: Punditus Maximus  on  09/08  at  11:31 PM

@ woody25.  Because, for some reason, the devil is still allowed to have authority in this world until Jesus returns.  Obama was elected because the devil hypnotized everyone and made them vote for a democrat.  Only real true christians could withstand the devil’s power and vote republican.  When Jesus returns he will kick the devil’s ass.  If you are a pentecostal or the like, Jesus will rapture the real true christians into heaven.  If you are a calvinist, Jesus will return to this world and send all the non real true christians to hell where they can still see the real true christians enjoying paradise while they suffer for eternity wishing they had listened to the real true christians.  Jesua creates a new heaven and a new earth with kind of a fuzzy dividing line, but there is no rapture in calvinism.  You’re welcome.

Yes, ponygirl is definitely the winner of this thread.

Comment #62: jackspratt  on  09/08  at  11:57 PM

Some “Christian” asshole actually pulled the “Everything happens for a reason” when my neice was diagnosed with leukemia.

A nurse was struck of the register in the UK recently for saying roughly that (with specific reference to God) to a couple who had just lost their newborn child.  I’m sure that people who say such a thing think they are being comforting, but just how utterly caught up in your own religious mindset would you have to be to not realise that to other people this is going to come out as “God wanted your child to die”.

Comment #63: Katherine  on  09/09  at  05:37 AM

I used to have a kid with leukemia. (I still have the kid. It’s all good.)

When she went off treatment and things were looking pretty good, lots of people went on about thanking God. I said look, if I’m supposed to thank God for the cure don’t you think I should blame God for the disease?

Nobody had an answer for that.

Comment #64: catfood  on  09/09  at  10:30 AM

I know if one more well-meaning godling tells me my daughter with Down syndrome is a “special gift from god” to “special parents” I may very well go postal. Why would this god person of yours make chromosomal anomalies to begin with, and why would he give a child with health and intellectual challenges to someone with severe depression, low income, and now is a single parent? Nice sky fairy eh?

Comment #65: TheRealistMom  on  09/09  at  12:47 PM

@catfood

It was years of medical innovations and breakthoughs that saved your kid and my neice.  So thank doctors.

I am so happy to hear your kid is alright.  It makes my heart soar to hear survival stories.

Comment #66: kitten parade  on  09/09  at  02:36 PM

One of the grossest most disgusting stories I heard as a child, the one that most directly brought me to the point of distrusting religion, was one about “why did God let little Billy die?  He was a good child!  His family is devastated!  It makes no sense!” 

Well, you see, God looked down the road at little Billy’s life and saw him take a wrong turn, so he took him up to Heaven while Billy was still a good person, so little Billy wouldn’t have to go to Hell and his family wouldn’t suffer as badly.

Which answers fuck-all about the little Billys and Janies who went on to become bad people and didn’t get scooped up by a merciful God.  Why didn’t God save them?

Comment #67: oldfeminist  on  09/09  at  03:09 PM

Obama was elected because the devil hypnotized everyone and made them vote for a democrat.  Only real true christians could withstand the devil’s power and vote republican.

That’s so close to what so many people really think, it’s freaky.

Comment #68: banisteriopsis  on  09/10  at  03:02 AM

I heard the same thing (“There are no accidents!”) just a couple weeks ago!

From my Tarot reader.

Wonder what the Prayer Warriors would think if they knew that they share many of the same beliefs with occultists.

Comment #69: trihardist  on  09/10  at  10:49 AM
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