A good comeback for a tired old joke.

Shoe is far from my favorite comic strip, but it got off a pretty good variation on that joke once, in a dialogue between a waitress and a customer:

CUSTOMER: I’d like a big ol’ steak.
WAITRESS: Sure. That comes with your choice of vegetables.
CUSTOMER: Vegetables ain’t food.
WAITRESS: You don’t eat vegetables?
CUSTOMER: Vegetables are what food eats.

Our cats split a can of wet food at 10 pm every night.  (Yes, they can tell time.  It’s a little freaky, actually.)

One weekend night, G. was sitting in the living room around 11 o’clock, having forgotten what time it was.  Our little cat Annie walked up to him and bit him on the arm—not hard, but enough to be noticed. 

I’m still convinced that her message was, “Look, bub, either you serve up the food or you are the food.  Get it?”  Since he immediately got up and opened the can, clearly the message was received.

Damn, Marcotte, you’re on a tear.  6 posts in the last 48 hours?  I can’t keep up!

Is this you making up for leaving all of us high a dry last week while you were bouncing around in the city that never sleeps?

Keep ‘em coming, this is great stuff.

Mmmm, fetus soup.  It’s really good with herbed dumplings.

Just remember, the word “eat” only means “to consume”.  God did not intend you to “eat” flesh in the colloquial sense, you pussy-licking perverts.

I know a few crunchies who have eaten placenta (the way most sensible nonhuman mammals do). Wonder how that would play in the Heartliverandlightsland.

That may be the most obvious trolling of one’s own thread I’ve ever seen.

You know who else is full of meat? Gamera!

But are you allowed to eat a Friend of Children?

Oh, wait. Bessie. Bambi. Flipper. Nevermind.

I believe that this is the appropriate video clip for this thread.

To use another hackneyed overused joke that passes for down-home, earnest “wit”: “Sarah, the last time I heard that one, I laughed so hard I fell off my dinosaur.”

I figure Palin’s perfectly safe: woman’s a vegetable.

Fetal flesh is made out of angel song, huh? I bet you could make a foam out of that, at least.

It’s best as a garnish, Incertus.

Norbizness @#8, I love you for that video!

Ya know, with the whole rogue book tour thing, and the gotcha media coverage and speculation about a 2012 presidential run, also, and the nonsensical Facebook posts also, and the whole back-and-forth fighting with Steve Schmidt and Nicole Wallace, and the talk about Levi’s porn shoot, because that’s what it is Oprah, I call it PORN!, I find myself wondering…

What if the wingnut base actually winds up voting for this woman en masse in the 2012 primaries and she really does secure the GOP nomination?

I don’t know whether I would laugh hysterically or drop my jaw in horror if the Republicans really do nominate her to be their presidential candidate in 3 years.

On the one hand, can you imagine the Obama-Palin debates?  How will the man keep a straight face?  It would be like a real-life SNL skit on everybody’s television.

On the other hand, even though I wouldn’t worry about her actually winning the general election, I think it would mortify me to have it confirmed that there really is a not-insignificant chunk of the American electorate who actually believes that this woman is in any way, shape, or form even remotely qualified to be the President of the United States.

I’ll be shocked if she doesn’t run.  I don’t know if she’ll win the nomination, but I think it will make for some great television.

“Ms. Fey, Lorne Michaels is on line one.”

You know, I’m thinking of that old line: “If animals didn’t want to be eaten, why are they so delicious?”

Seriously though, if the only thing that comes to mind when making a vegan meal is “salad”, you need to work on your recipe book.

This is why people who believe in divine creation scare me.

A lot.

Also, I think the original point is moot, because Christianity is a religion based around cannibalism (Eucharist/Communion and all that), so this is Not News.

DTG in STL says: On the one hand, can you imagine the Obama-Palin debates?  How will the man keep a straight face?  It would be like a real-life SNL skit on everybody’s television.

We got a painful preview last year during her debate with Joe Biden.  It was like watching a junior high JV team up against the NBA (or WNBA).  It was pathetic.

And despite all of the rightwingnut squawking about Obama bowing to the elderly Emperor of Japan - Palin would probably have slapped him a high-five.

No, Julian, that’s why Jesus turned himself into crackers.  So we could eat him and not be cannibals.

Our cats split a can of wet food at 10 pm every night.  (Yes, they can tell time.  It’s a little freaky, actually.)

Harriet just got switched to wet food over the weekend.  For the first time ever, she met me at the door. (after dinner, she went back to bed)

Also, I think the original point is moot, because Christianity is a religion based around cannibalism (Eucharist/Communion and all that), so this is Not News.

Exactly. And it’s amazing how few people see the ritual cannibalism (even if symbolic) at the heart of their religious practice.

Mitchell.  Webb.  Vegetarianism.  Heeeeeeeeeeeeeere kitty kitty kitty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKTsWjbjQ8E

Is Sarah worrried that vegans will just turn up at her door? I assume, given her sentiment, there’s no way she’d invite any over.

God you’re great. All of you are great. But man, Amanda, you’re great.

It isn’t even original, let alone funny.

What else could god have made animals out of?  Marshmallows?  Potatoes?  Rubber? Maybe god should have made animals out of fake fur and cotton-stuffing, with googley-eyes and no teeth.  Then everyone could shop for dinner at “Build A Bear”.

Not marshmallows, please.  Marshmallow animals are disgusting.  Fun to microwave though.

you could, y’know, whip up plenty of vegan things that aren’t salad too,

PBJ? Vegan.
Tomato Soup? Vegan.
actually, many of the most delicious soups are vegan or can be made vegan with something as simple as margarine for butter, or vegetable broth instead.
Pesto? in fact, most pasta dishes, all you have to do is “don’t add cheese which you didn’t really need anyway?”

pick a good heavy core vegetable and roast it some way or another, still vegan. Artichoke? Eggplant? vegan.

Vegetarian et al are among the easiest food aversions to cater to. you have to noticeably lack ability in cooking to be unable to accommodate “no meat.”

and really, isn’t a soccer mom/fetishized wife-and-mother an abject failure if she can’t cook?

My dear departed cat could tell time. That’s why I fed her wet food in the evening as opposed to morning, because I didn’t want her waking me up on Saturday or Sunday to ask for it. She went to bed with me every night and never got up before I did, but right about 10:30 every night she’d head to the kitchen and start meowing.

At every MSM site I have seen with coverage of Palin’s new book, someone has expressed some version of how unqualified she is to be president. And every time, someone jumps in with, “I know you are but what am I?” pointing the finger at Obama. If you call Palin charismatic but dim-witted, the Republican commenter says that Palin is smart and it’s Obama who is charismatic but dim-witted. If you say Palin is not sufficiently knowledgeable about international issues, the Republican counters with, “but Obama bowed to a foreign ruler and everyone knows you’re not supposed to do that!” My head hurts from the stupidity.

Well said, Tyro. Seriously, I’ve seen the “why are they made of meat?” slogan on fridge magnets, bumper stickers, t-shirts… This is like when your relatives tell you the jokes that they saw on Jay Leno (or even worse, in Reader’s Digest). Even an eye-roll seems like more credit than it deserves.

I’d generally say that being a vegetarian is easy, being a vegan is hard.  Cooking for guests of different persuasions, accommodating vegetarians is usually a question of leaving something out, whereas vegans usually need something substituted.  I think it’s because butter, eggs, and cheese tend to be ingredients in dishes, whereas meat tends to be the entree.  Pork doesn’t lurk in a dish somewhere, so it’s easy to take out, unlike eggs which are often invisible (so it’s harder to figure out what they do, exactly).

Also of note:  there’s something in the culture that #1 brings out - it’s not about eating meat, it’s about not-eating vegetables.  Omnivores who like food, including meat (like me) tend to really like vegetables too, whereas there’s this sort of masculine type that sees their consumption of meat as part of a war on vegetables.  They usually seem to not like meat much, either, as this tends to be the population that orders its steaks well done.

No, Julian, that’s why Jesus turned himself into crackers.  So we could eat him and not be cannibals.

Also the reason Jesus is white now, yes/no?

However, I’m sure that Palin and Jesus make an exception for fetal flesh, which is not made of meat but of angel song, and is not fit for consumption.  The mother, however?  Go for it.

Based on the indignant and disgusted summary of the Twilight books that my little sister gave me, that *is* how you get the baby out…

“don’t add cheese which you didn’t really need anyway?”

You go to hell, karpad.

Although in all honesty, I’ve cut a good deal of cheese out of my diet in the last few months simply because I got up to 275 and was tired of my knees hurting all the damn time. I’ve dropped 20 pounds since April just by being a little more careful about how much I ingest and when I do it (and walking 4 miles 5 days a week). But omg cheese.

Kwillow says: Then everyone could shop for dinner at “Build A Bear”.

LOL!! Probably better than McHeartAttack.

I have friends who are vegetarians and I know the shit they’ve had to go through after giving up meat and then visiting family for the holidays. You’d think they molested kids or something with the reception and nagging they got. But because of them I’ve been introduced to lots of other foods (still won’t eat tofu though) and I appreciate being exposed to stuff that I probably wouldn’t have otherwise, at least not as quickly (we were in MO at the time but since I’ve moved to CA I’ve been exposed to a lot more tasty possibilities)  and when I have vegetarian friends come over for big get togethers I make sure to have foods-plural-they can eat and I make sure to separate everything and cook on different materials so that there’s no cross contamination. I do this because I like my friends and I’m not an asshole, or a cannibal, like Sarah Palin.

Pesto? in fact, most pasta dishes, all you have to do is “don’t add cheese which you didn’t really need anyway?”

That’s true of marinara sauce, but one of the primary ingredients in pesto is parmesan.  I’ve had vegan pesto and didn’t care for it (it’s really harsh without the parmesan to cut the potency of the garlic and basil), but it’s still not easy to substitute vegan pesto for regular.

Sarah Palin is so the kinda person who says, “Well at least you aren’t a vegan” the way you would say “Well at least it was only manslaughter.”

This sounds like a dare for a Sarah Palin fear factor challenge.

“Well, Ms. Palin, if God didn’t intend for us to eat kangaroo eyes, why did he make them so damn delicious?”

many of the most delicious soups are vegan or can be made vegan

No.  There is no good way to make black bean soup vegan (ham hock, sour cream). 
There is no good way to make onion soup vegan (beef broth and swiss cheese). 
Leberknoedelsuppe requires both chicken broth and chicken livers.
I assume, without googling, that vegans don’t eat fish, therefore don’t eat chowder or bouillabaisse.
Any vegetable soup can be improved with butter or cream, preferably both.  Most will be better when made with chicken stock, the rest with pork fat.

Really there’s no such thing as “vegan soup.”  At best, you have “boiled vegetables served in their cooking liquids.”  Come to think of it, do vegans use wine?  Yeast are animals, after all…

@42: Please tell me you’re drunk, or you’re Anthony Bourdain, or something that will help to explain the complete idiocy of this comment.

I subscribe to the Brillat-Savarin “osmazome theory” of soup.

Interesting: yeast isn’t a problem for vegans (I mistook my yeast trivia - they are fungi, not animals).  But vegans avoid most wine and beer because of animal products used to clarify them before bottling.

Soy sauce helps, but in my experience a vegan cook’s even better best friend is ginger paste.

I’m getting hungry reading this thread.

war on vegetables

Which will be fought with valor and righteous determination, until the day in which we have conquered every last radish, vanquished every last cauliflower, and forced their unconditional surrender at the Treaty of Asparagus!

Yeah I know.  It was bad.

Pinera has a vegan, low-fat black bean soup that’s not too bad, actually.

I love Panera Bread black bean soup!  YUM YUM.

It’s still weird everytime I see it called “Panera Bread”, since all of our stores still use the original name “St. Louis Bread Co.” (the company was started here 20 years ago, and it’s HQ is still here).

@ 46

Not sure about wine but many beers are mechanically filtered these days instead of using finings.  Calling the brewery usually yields an answer.  So I have known vegans who enjoy beer.

Really, my only gripe with vegan food is the snacks.  And I have tried a lot of them, because every time I go to the co-op I pick up a different vegan snack in the hopes of finding one I like.  But they’re all either Japanese-style cracker/seaweed dealies, or else globs of dates, ground nuts and rice protein.  Maybe my co-op doesn’t stock the good stuff, but my vegan snack quest has so far been disappointing.

@ 51

A lot of snacks are unintentionally vegan like potato chips.  Plus Alternative Baking Company has these Double Chocolate chip cookies that are phenomenal.

So if God didn’t want people to eat pigs and shellfish from 6,000 to 2,000 years ago, why did he make those things out of meat?  Or, are we to assume that those animals weren’t made out of meat until Jesus said it’s OK to eat them?

Also, why would God make things so tempting to steal if he didn’t want us to steal them?  It’s not like he would ever expect us to make decisions for ourselves or resist temptation as a test of faith, right?

I don’t know how accurate this is, but I found it on the Internet, so what the hell:

http://www.veggiewines.co.uk/popularbeers.htm

At least some brewers still use finings in addition to filtration. Why? Filtration works best if the larger particles have already been removed, which is what the finings do.

The question is whether or not the finings used are animal products. Ironically you’re more likely to run into animal-based finings such as gelatin or isinglass with craft beer, since they have been used traditionally.

Yeah, she kills animals and eats them. No surprise there.

Am I the only person who noticed that she looked dead at Oprah and said, “We need to teach girls about the consequences of unprotected sex?” Not sex before marriage. Not abstinence. The woman said “unprotected sex. Has she already forgotten her fundie talking points?

Karpad at #30:
Your last 2 sentances, my first thoughts, exactly.

BABH - you realize there’s a difference between “soup is often vegan/easy to make vegan” and “every single soup recipe ever invented can be made equally deliciously as a vegan dish”, right?

Sure, there are some soups which are not vegan and are never going to be the same if you take out the animal products (chicken noodle).  There are other soups where it honestly doesn’t make much of a difference (corn chowder).  If you aren’t vegan and don’t have anyone significant in your life who is a strict vegan, it probably won’t ever matter to you, so you should mind your own business if this is something that bugs me.  People who eat well-done steak bug me, but I don’t write multiple blog comments about it.

ugh, that should be “if this is something that bugs you.”  gah.

karpad (30):

Vegetarian et al are among the easiest food aversions to cater to. you have to noticeably lack ability in cooking to be unable to accommodate “no meat.”

No meat is easy enough; I find if there are more than one or two vegetables you dislike or can’t eat, no meat or eggs or dairy is hard to sustain for more than a couple of weeks without a lot of repetition.

That said, I don’t understand the hostility towards vegetarians/vegans who aren’t self-righteous. I guess it’s people who believe deep down that meat is immoral and don’t like being “made” to feel guilty about eating it anyway, that is, they feel the mere existence of veg*ans is a reproach, and don’t take it well.

@57: Yes, I understand - that’s why my post was tongue-in-cheek.

What I don’t understand is how you can write, apparently seriously, that nobody will notice if you make corn chowder without the bacon.

I am pretty sure Sarah Palin thinks in bumper stickers

BABH, there are Vegan-friendly ham flavor packets made by GOYA.  Ironic, because a jewish friend introduced me to them.  They give anything a smoky, ham/bacon flavor.

The way that Palin’s policies lay waste to animal life, she better get used to cooking vegan.

I visited India last year for a few weeks and after collecting some recipe books there and picking up a few more when I got home I haven’t had a single problem cooking vegan for my friends*. I find it’s way easier to take recipes from cultures that have been doing what I want to do for a long time instead of trying to modify existing WASPy recipes that I grew up on.

Then again, I’m good at modifying recipes, I’m not good at inventing them. I’m only a passable cook, not a great one.

*most of my vegan friends are willing to bend their rules when we go out to eat, but I feel that when I’m having people over it’s no more difficult to cook a vegan meal than a non-vegan one, but until I realized that much Indian food was vegan-friendly I was kinda at a loss on what to make, my tofu preparation leaves much to be desired, so going with a nice chickpea curry seemed a much easier option.

What I don’t understand is how you can write, apparently seriously, that nobody will notice if you make corn chowder without the bacon.

I don’t think I’ve ever had corn chowder made With bacon. My family always made it with some kind of shellfish base.

Wait a minute.  Take a meal and listen to Sarah Palin expound on her philosophies?  How the heck am I supposed to-

Oh, hold up.  I get it.  She never said anything about actually keeping the food down.  I understand completely now.

That said, I don’t understand the hostility towards vegetarians/vegans who aren’t self-righteous. I guess it’s people who believe deep down that meat is immoral and don’t like being “made” to feel guilty about eating it anyway, that is, they feel the mere existence of veg*ans is a reproach, and don’t take it well.

I think the problem is that most people convert to vegetarianism or veganism when they’re in high school or college and at the height of the self-centered, self-righteousness. This is when most of us meet our first vegetarians or vegans, and so we persist under the assumption that vegetarians and vegans are all like that dickbag in the lunchroom who would harangue you for killing adorable cows because you’re eating the sloppy joe. Even once we’ve *all* grown up and learned to live and let live we’re still laboring under the belief that those first impressions gave us.

There is such a thing as a post-high school/college vegetarian asshole, but I find that, just like with Christianity or any other life-altering revelation, it’s the new converts and/or the people who struggle to omit the tasty bacon from their diet who tend to be the assholes.

The rest of the asshole vegetarians and vegans I know are specifically responding to assholes like Sarah Palin who haven’t gotten over the fact that vegetarians and vegans just don’t want to eat meat and that can’t be so hard to deal with.

I’m having a vegetarian over for thanksgiving. I will not be making a tofurkey for her, and apart from omitting a bit of bacon from a salad until serving time and making a little side-pot of stuffing that uses veggie broth instead of chicken broth, it’s really not going to put me out to be a good hostess and give her plenty to eat and pleasant company.

Mighty Ponygirl, you might add this soup - I used to make it for my vegan niece and nephew at thanksgiving and EVERYBODY ate it!  It is a very harvest- oriented dish.

2 cans pumpkin
2 sweet potatoes (NOT yams) - baked and mashed
1 qt veg broth
1 cup peanut butter
1 onion
3 cloves of garlic, pressed
olive oil

Bake sweet potatoes in microwave, skin, and mash (they usually squeeze out of their skins)
Saute garlic and onions in olive oil.  Add broth, pumpkin, sweet potato, and peanut butter and stir, stir, stir.

Simmer.  Serve with chives or chopped green onion.  Non-vegans might like some sour cream dollops in it.

Ms Kate—she’s not vegan, I’m making a roasted fall vegetables in cheddar crust with an olive tapenade base and goat cheese topping that is muy hearty and amazingly tasty that we can all share. We will also have mashed koboche squash, home-made rolls, and pecan pie. So she will definitely not be put out with a little plate of stuffing and salad while we all feast on turkey and gravy and mounds of meat-laden side dishes.

BUT! Thanks for the recipe… I wonder if I can substitute soy nut butter for the peanut butter…?

Corn chowder is supposed to have bacon?

Or at LEAST cream.

I’m always annoyed when non-vegetarians describe themselves as “carnivores.” Humans can’t subsist on an carnivorous diet. What they mean is that they’re omnivores.

Nimue, in comment #72, I entirely agree. Not just omnivores though, humans are, like dogs, opportunistic eaters. We will find a way to eat anything.

I wouldn’t mind being vegetarian, it consumes less land per calorie not to mention the essential vitamins and minerals that meat processes out of sequesters to the liver and kidneys.

But there are few vegetarian meals I’ve found that can be whipped up in 10 minutes like steak and potatoes can.

I’m always annoyed when non-vegetarians describe themselves as “carnivores.” Humans can’t subsist on an carnivorous diet. What they mean is that they’re omnivores.

Yep.  Cats are true carnivores—if they don’t get fed a meat-based diet, they get sick and die, usually after going blind first from the lack of taurine.  Dogs are omnivores, which is why you can switch them to a vegetarian or vegan diet with no harm done.  The fact that humans can quite easily live without meat makes us omnivores, not carnivores.

There is such a thing as a post-high school/college vegetarian asshole, but I find that, just like with Christianity or any other life-altering revelation, it’s the new converts and/or the people who struggle to omit the tasty bacon from their diet who tend to be the assholes.

It’s also the people who are vegans as a moral statement, like the authors of the Skinny Bitch diet books.  Be a vegan and you can lord it over all of your friends because you’ll be so much healthier and morally superior to them at the same time, and you will physically demonstrate it to the world by your skinniness!

When I go on my rants against vegans, those are the ones I mean:  the ones who insist that your body type demonstrates your moral superiority, because only omnivores ever have problems with their weight.  With a corollary, I assume, that if adopting a vegan diet doesn’t cause you to lose weight like they claim it will, it proves that you’re an inherently bad person since the magical vegan diet didn’t cure you of your immoral fatness.

My favorite version of the Eucharist joke comes in the form of a Dungeons & Dragons session:

Game Master: “At the back wall of the temple is a statue depicting a man being tortured to death.  A black-robed priest is exhorting the congregation to engage in ritual cannibalism.”

Player: “I draw my sword and charge forward…!”

And I concur with those who say that if Sarah Palin’s idea of how to cook for a vegetarian is “salad”, she needs to get out more.  But then, we already knew that.

And it’s true, no humans are “carnivores”.  We are omnivores by nature, or as I prefer to say, “opportunistic scavengers”.

#68 Mighty Ponygirl, I went to a meetup a few months ago for an Atheist Alliance Int’l orientation, only to find out that in addition, everyone invited except me was a vegan or vegetarian, mostly baby boomers. Yes, I found them to be self-righteous, self-congratulatory, and badly misinformed both politically and nutritionally. There was one woman, originally from Europe, who was bent over from the middle of her back nearly 90 degrees, and without any irony, insisted to me that vegetarianism was the healthiest thing.

No. Thank. You.

What I don’t understand is how you can write, apparently seriously, that nobody will notice if you make corn chowder without the bacon.

I don’t think I’ve ever had corn chowder with bacon, so, uhhhh….? 

You do realize that there are multiple versions of just about every different food you’ve ever eaten, right?  It’s not like there is one true correct recipe for every dish, and if you alter it in any way it becomes totally corrupted. 

Which, btw, is in all seriousness something that I think is at the heart of a lot of people’s disrespect of vegetarianism—the idea that recipes are inviolate, and that it’s simply impossible to, say, alter your pesto recipe to leave out the cheese*, or make soup with vegetable stock.  I often throw restaurant employees for a loop when I order the Tuscan Grilled Chicken Salad without the chicken, or ask for Panini #8 sans prosciutto. 

*the answer is to bump up the amount of pine nuts, and probably cut down on the garlic, if anyone was curious.

It is quite possible for humans to subsist on meat alone. Most people who do nutritional research for themselves come across the story of Stefansson who in addition to living with the Inuit, was part of a study conducted under the supervision of medical doctors where he and another explorer spent more than a year eating nothing but meat, and remained healthy. The study was written up in JAMA.

“In the 1920s anthropologist Vilhjalmur Stefansson lived with and studied a group of Inuit.[30] The study focused on the fact that the Inuit’s extremely low-carbohydrate diet had no adverse effects on their health, nor indeed, Stefansson’s own health. Stefansson (1946) also observed that the Inuit were able to get the necessary vitamins they needed from their traditional winter diet, which did not contain any plant matter. In particular, he found that adequate vitamin C could be obtained from items in their traditional diet of raw meat such as Ringed Seal liver and whale skin (muktuk). While there was considerable scepticism when he reported these findings, they have been borne out in recent studies.[31]”

We live in such a sanitized, skinless, boneless culture, that we forget that organ meats are important vehicles for necessary nutrients. Every nutrient necessary can be found in meats, whereas the same is not true for plant material. Regular beef muscle has at least five nutrients that can’t be had in veggies, B12, taurine, creatine, carnitine, and alpha-lipoic acid.

For those vegetarians who would tell you that B12 can found in things like miso soup, there is indeed a B12 analogue that actually depletes B12 stores, creating a deficiency. The real B12 is an animal product, and only an animal product.

Also, yeah, you can easily omit the cream from a creamy soup by using potatoes.  Throw some peeled and cut potatoes into the soup in the beginning, finish with an immersion blender or potato masher (or hell, a fork or good metal slotted spoon would probably work too) to puree the potatoes until the stock’s texture is to your taste. 

My corn chowder recipe (which came from the Veganomicon) calls for a glug of soy milk.  Though, as a dairy-eater, I have been known to substitute in cream just because I wanna.

Also good in a vegan chowder/stew/other hearty bowl-oriented meal: a dash of maple syrup.

I’m also a big fan of throwing in a half teaspoon of miso paste to vegetarian soups and stews for a little added complexity.

But there are few vegetarian meals I’ve found that can be whipped up in 10 minutes like steak and potatoes can.

Honey, if you can “whip up” something that includes a side of potatoes in 10 minutes, you are already bending the laws of physics (or is it chemistry?) and thus should be able to subsist on plankton if you really wanted to.  Or buy lots of processed soy stuff (assuming you are “whipping up” these potatoes out of a box). 

Less snidely, I have to say that ever since I stopped cooking with meat, I’ve noticed that food prep and clean up time are much shorter and easier to deal with.  Easily makes up for a lengthening of the actual cooking time, though I have to say my dinners don’t take an unusual amount of time to prepare.  Unless I decide I want potatoes, which need at least half an hour in the oven.  Har har.

I can whip up something that includes a side of potatoes in less than ten minutes, The Opoponax.  I can make baked potato in the microwave.  I might even be able to scoop the insides out of the baked potatoes and whip up some mashed potatoes in that time.  I could also heat up some cheese sauce and broccoli to pour over the potato.  You have to pierce the potato with a knife all the way through before microwaving though or they’ll explode.

My point is that it takes longer to cook potatoes than it does most other vegetables - if you can bake a potato in the microwave and turn it into mash in under 10 minutes, you can make pretty much any other non-meat meal in a similarly convenient amount of time.  The only dish I can think of that I eat with any regularity which takes more than a half hour to make is roast beets.  And most of that time is the beets roasting away in the oven while I read a book in the living room. 

Another thing that makes eating vegetarian easier is occasionally taking a few hours on a weekend to cook a big one-pot meal which can be frozen in multiple batches to be reheated later.  Which I suppose you can do with meat, too, but it really substantially adds to your options either way.

Microwaved potatoes are unholy. If God had wanted us to have potatoes ready in less than an hour and a half, he would have given us microwaves.

/palin

It is quite possible for humans to subsist on meat alone.

Of course we can.  That’s what makes us omnivores—we can live on pretty much any diet that provides enough calories.  I’m a meat-eater myself, but I have no illusions that I, personally, must have meat in my diet in order to live.  (Some people actually do—isn’t there a commenter here who has a form of anemia that absolutely requires that she eat meat to keep her blood iron levels stable?)

Oh yeah, that’s another nutrient most easily absorbed from meat—heme iron. Veggie iron isn’t always bioavailable to the human body—some people can’t absorb it. There are anti-nutrients such as oxalic acid which makes it impossible for some people to get any iron from say, spinach.

Perhaps I should have used the word “thrive” and not “subsist”. No carb and low carb don’t lead to the kinds of deficiencies to which vegans succumb.

Lierre Keith, the author of “The Vegetarian Myth” has permanent physical damage from twenty years of veganism. The book is quite a read. She also takes on the Moral Vegetarian, the Political Vegetarian, and the Nutritional Vegetarian, giving very convincing arguments as to why none are sustainable reasons for vegetarianism.

To make my bias absolutely clear, I find that I can’t handle any great amount of vegetation. I tried vegetarianism when much younger and found myself faint, fatigued, and eating every twenty minutes. I really do suffer from carbohydrate intolerance, so I just roll my eyes when others try to convince me of the benefits of vegetarianism. When I eat meat with veggies as a condiment, I am energetic, clear-headed, able to take on any challenge or annoyance. Not so with veggies. In the end, they all turn into glucose, and while we all can make glucose from protein through gluconeogenesis, we can’t make protein from glucose. Our bones and muscles cannot be repaired with glucose. Acutally, no organ can.

Be careful with that joke, Sarah, it’s an antique.

As for LCforevah—you can choose the diet you wish. But as you noted, it’s a biased opinion, based on your own experience, one which is not generalizable. (Hey, spell-check recognized that. I wasn’t sure it was a word.)

The fact that millions of people do lead healthy, active lives eating no meat whatsoever is ipso facto proof that vegetarianism is not necessarily unhealthy. Yes, when one is a vegetarian, one has to be careful about iron and protein, but I have yet to meet a vegetarian who doesn’t know this. Lacto-ovo vegetarians really don’t have a problem getting either, as eggs, cheese, and milk contain all the protein you’d ever need.

You seem to conflate vegetarianism with veganism, in which all animal products are cut out—a diet which is more difficult to make totally healthy, and one that cannot be undertaken as casually as vegetarianism. But there are enough vegans making their way in the world without problems to show that with care, veganism can be healthy too.

As Mnemosyne noted, humans are omnivores; indeed, evidence strongly suggests that our evolutionary path favored us because we needed to be flexible and adaptable to survive quickly cycling climate conditions in the Great Rift Valley. We developed big brains and guts that can make use of damn near anything. In times of scarcity, that’s the difference between life and death; in times of luxury, like now, that affords us the luxury to make choices about our diet based on more than just simple survival. And if people want to make the choice to be vegetarian, and spare animals death to survive—well, I see that as a noble choice, even if not one I’d make myself.

(FWIW, my daughter and ex-wife are vegetarians, and both are smarter than I am, so take from that what you will.)

veggie iron isn’t always bioavailable to the human body—some people can’t absorb it.

Yes, and some people have food allergies.  There exist scores of digestive disorders which entail that so-and-so is never to consume such-and-such. 

For that matter, there are people who can’t hear - does that mean it’s unhealthy for people to talk, or sing, or listen to music?  There are people who can’t see - should I stay away from art museums for this reason?

Quirks of individual biology do not have a whole lot of bearing on what any other individual should or should not do, or how a species as a whole should be assessed.

By the way, there are millions (if not billions) of humans who are vegetarian for religious or cultural reasons.  They don’t seem to be keeling over en masse or anything.  Shit, they probably made the shoes you’re wearing.

When I eat meat with veggies as a condiment, I am energetic, clear-headed, able to take on any challenge or annoyance.

If you’re only eating vegetables in the form of condiments, or in condiment-like proportions, your good health is going to be extremely short-lived.

9 out of 10 of the top Google results for “corn chowder” start with bacon fat.  It is an essential element of the classic recipe*.  Any non-vegetarian who hasn’t had it made that way really ought to try it.

I’ll add my voice to the poster above who turns to Indian cuisine when feeding vegans and vegetarians.  Definitely a great way to go.  Thai and Vietnamese are great too.

[* Yes, of course recipes can be altered and played with at will.  But just as substituting tarragon vinegar for lemon juice changes Hollandaise into Bearnaise, omitting bacon turns corn chowder into something quite different, and undeserving of the name.]

Coming late to the vegan discussion party, but check out this website for mainstream products that are accidentally vegan:  http://www.peta.org/accidentallyVegan/default.asp  .

Yeah, I know… it’s from PETA, but what a gonna do?  Take information where you can get it. 

Be sure to read the disclaimer below the main text; some of the items are varying degrees of “animal-free” (“Boycotting products that are 99.9 percent vegan sends the message to manufacturers that there is no market for this food, which ends up hurting more animals.”)

If you’re only eating vegetables in the form of condiments, or in condiment-like proportions, your good health is going to be extremely short-lived.

You know, or maybe not.  Different people have different health requirements.  I try to eat veggies because I know they’re supposed to be good for me, but I have never suffered for the lack of them.  My anemia however, makes living without red meat a difficult thing for me.  I’m so glad that a vegetarian lifestyle is working for you or whatever, but seriously, DIFFERENT NEEDS.

People need vegetables.  Beyond ketchup.  That’s all I really meant.  I’m not trying to get anyone to become vegetarian - I’m just trying to put a little realism in this discussion.  The most nutritious diet is one heavy in vegetables and comparatively light in meat, dairy, and refined sugars.  If you like eating piles of steak every night and consider the A-1 you put on the side to be “a vegetable”, more power to you.  But it’s a far less sustainable lifestyle choice than veganism.

omitting bacon turns corn chowder into something quite different, and undeserving of the name

Which is patently false considering that several people in this thread have mentioned that they’d never even heard of putting bacon in corn chowder.  Whereas I doubt any French chef or gourmand would say they’ve never considered that lemon juice would be an ingredient in a sauce bearnaise.

Not to mention that the difference between the various French sauces is largely one of chemistry.  Swapping bacon grease for olive oil to sautee the base vegetables does not alter the chemical composition of a soup.

1) Swapping citric acid for acetic acid is not a chemical shift.
2) Comparing the culinary education index of anonymous commenters to that of French chefs won’t get you very far.

Some recipes are better than others, just as some novels are better than others.  In a blind taste-test of non-vegetarian Americans, I predict that 90% would prefer a corn chowder made with bacon fat to one made with butter or oil, all other ingredients and procedures being held constant (except maybe adjusting the salt).  See you at the County Fair!

In a blind taste-test of non-vegetarian Americans, I predict that 90% would prefer a corn chowder made with bacon fat to one made with butter or oil, all other ingredients and procedures being held constant (except maybe adjusting the salt).

This is why good vegetarian recipes don’t propose a 1-for-1 swap, keeping all other procedures the same.

Sure, but you could take a *vegetarian* recipe, substitute bacon fat for the oil or butter, and still be confident of winning.

That’s what makes us omnivores—we can live on pretty much any diet that provides enough calories.

Wrong. There are a wide variety of diseases that you can get from vitamin and mineral deficiency. Pellagra was widespread in Europe and the American South because maize without nixtamalization does not provide niacin. Maize will provide you with plenty of calories, but a diet consisting primarily of plain maize will condemn you to insanity and a painful death. You might be surprised to learn that the advent of Wonderbread largely resolved the problem.

opponax, I eat perhaps two pcs of broccoli or a few lettuce leaves. It’s the very small quantity that makes veggies seem like a condiment. Ketchup? A-1? Not.

I also don’t ascribe to fiber as being necessary. There are so many anti-nutrients in all vegetables that it isn’ really known how much we absorb of the nutrient content. And, the Albert Einstein Institute hasn’t found any vegetarian centenarians.

Centenarians that are being observed have no habits in common except for one—they all eat meat.

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/dec/25/health/he-lifespan25?pg=3

People need vegetables.  Beyond ketchup.

I don’t think anyone besides Regan thought ketchup was a vegetable, but I do eat my veggies in small “condiment-like” portions.  And still manage to be healthy.  And get sick when I don’t have enough red meat.  I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again DIFFERENT NEEDS.  You don’t know what I need, and I don’t know what you need.  I’m not condemning your “no really everyone can be vegetarian and it totally is better for their health” stance, because I’m sure it’s made your health better, or whatever, I’m just pointing out that we aren’t all you.

Ms. Kate (62):

there are Vegan-friendly ham flavor packets made by GOYA

That sounds horrifying. If you’re not going to eat animal products, don’t, but then don’t fake it.

Nimue (72):

I’m always annoyed when non-vegetarians describe themselves as “carnivores.” Humans can’t subsist on an carnivorous diet. What they mean is that they’re omnivores.

Some noiseome buffoons do their damnedest, though, or at least claim to.

LC (79):

I went to a meetup a few months ago for an Atheist Alliance Int’l orientation, only to find out that in addition, everyone invited except me was a vegan or vegetarian, mostly baby boomers. Yes, I found them to be self-righteous, self-congratulatory, and badly misinformed both politically and nutritionally.

Organized atheists are like that, yes.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again DIFFERENT NEEDS.

And I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:  VEGETABLES ARE GOOD FOR YOU.  YOU NEED TO EAT THEM.  EATING NOTHING BUT MEAT IS UNHEALTHY. 

You don’t know what I need, and I don’t know what you need.

Assuming that you are a member of the species Homo sapiens sapiens, and assuming the same is true for me, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that we definitely both need to eat vegetables.  I’m sorry if it makes you throw temper tantrums like a contrary four year old who has decided he doesn’t like peas this week, but it’s true.

I’m not condemning your “no really everyone can be vegetarian and it totally is better for their health” stance, because I’m sure it’s made your health better, or whatever, I’m just pointing out that we aren’t all you.

1.  I don’t think “everyone can be vegetarian” and never said anything of the kind. 

2.  I don’t think being vegetarian is better in general for people’s health.  It’s really just like any kind of eating.  It depends on the person.  I have said as much in this very thread.

3.  I’m really not sure that becoming vegetarian has made me “more healthy”, to be honest with you.  I did not become vegetarian for health reasons and think that in general that’s not a great reason to do so.

4.  I have NEVER been under the impression that you are all me, or whatever.

I also don’t ascribe to fiber as being necessary.  There are so many anti-nutrients in all vegetables that it isn’ really known how much we absorb of the nutrient content.

Does your mommy know you’re on the computer?

the Albert Einstein Institute hasn’t found any vegetarian centenarians.

Centenarians that are being observed have no habits in common except for one—they all eat meat.

You know what I bet all those centenarians have in common, though?  I bet they all eat vegetables.

Yes, The Opoponax, and now we are all totally convinced that vegetarians aren’t assholes who are all about their own propaganda and don’t shit all over omnivores whenever they can.  Really.  Good point proving.

And P.S. Gigantic Asshole:

I never said I didn’t eat vegetables, I just said that I eat them in small portions.  Which you have previously denigrated as if we were all eating ketchup and A-1.  Get off the fucking pedestal.  You are not better and are part of the reason many omnivores hate vegetarians.  If it works for you, then fucking fine, it doesn’t work for me.  You are not better than me because your body digests vegetable proteins better.

#104 Hershele, you conveniently forgot to include the part about the woman who was bent over double in quoting me. I found it really frightening that someone with a spine so disabled could still tout vegetarianism. It was something to watch her navigate space, all the while being proud to be a vegetarian. You do understand that there is no way I would take nutritional advice from her.

So sorry I did not elaborate on what I found so politically and nutritionally embarrassing about this particular group. At this meeting I talked to people who called meat eaters immoral, a person who feels he has found proof against the germ theory, a couple of people who feel that if and only if, the world turned vegetarian we would have peace, etc. In short, I found people who were nominally adults, with rather childish, special views based solely on emotionalistic decisions they have made. None of them had any research to back up what they declared—I asked them to point out where I could get information, and most said to go to PETA websites—been there, done that, not impressed. There are no nutritional studies that back up vegetarian, let alone vegan claims. I knew that before asking for their research sites, I was just curious to here their answers. PETA, right.

No, I belong to several “organized atheist” groups made up of all sorts; young, old, of color, white, recovering from religion and not. Nowhere else have I ended up in a group of atheists so willing to be part of a vegetarian cult.

#105-107 opponax, regarding the centenarians, there are about 400 being observed by the Einstein institute and no, they don’t all eat their vegetables—they are very idiosyncratic. That’s part of the problem in trying to find out if their longevity has anything to do with their nutrition.  At least one man eats once a day—he fries a piece of bread in lard—that’s pork fat for those who don’t know—and that’s all he has.

The situation we have here is that human “omnivorousness” happens on a continuum, and there are people on the extreme ends. I, and possibly Mimi, do much better with as little vegetable matter as possible, like pork fat man. On the other side there are some that need to avoid animal protein as much as possible.

There is a study that has extrapolated that 75% of the human population does better on mostly meat, while 25% thrive on mostly vegetable matter. The study took young people in their twenties and monitored their blood glucose levels after carbohydrate meals. 75% of them, even at that young age, had sugar spikes. The other 25% did not have sugar spikes. I’m searching for the study’s url and will post it.

By the way, I’m older, my mother is dead and she never used a computer.

LCforevah, I totally accept that you have some personal reason that you can’t thrive on a vegetarian or vegan diet, but it’s more than possible. Check out Robert Cheeke the vegan bodybuilder for proof a vegan diet can be healthy www.robertcheeke.com ,he could probably bench press a car. As to Lierre Keith, I couldn’t find any academic or medical credentials on her with google, so right now I’m as much inclined to believe her thoughts on proper nutrition as I am to believe Kathy Freston, the high-school dropout who swears a vegan diet will cure cancer. Proper nutrition is key no matter what diet someone follows, an unhealthy vegan who doesn’t have a well planned diet can just as easily end up with a dangerous nutrient deficiency as my ex-boyfriend who ate steak every single day ended up with gout and high blood pressure.

LCforevah, you need to look at more studies. Almost all studies have found that to live longer you should: restrict your calory intake, eat lots of fruits and vegetables (and fish if you want it), eat meat and dairy sparingly (and in Okinawa eat lots of Soya). You can see this in Sardinia and Okinawa that have the highest concentration of centenarians. And you must not have looked very far if you didn’t find any vegetarian centenarians. If you go to the New England Centenarian Study (at Boston University) you read this:

“Not all centenarians are alike. They vary widely in years of education (no years to post-graduate), socioeconomic status (very poor to very rich), religion, ethnicity and patterns of diet (strictly vegetarian to extremely rich in saturated fats).”

The strongest indicator of longevity seems to be genes, followed by lifestyle (exercise and follow the diet I describe above), your ability to handle stress, your social activity (the more the better). I get this from the Okinawa Centenarian study.

Also, studies have found that vegetarians tend to live longer than meat eaters (although this is mixed). I don’t give a study because there are lots of such studies.

#112 JohnL I would find it very difficult to believe that the Einstein institute would not be aware of vegetarian centenarians being studied at Boston University. I am going to assume that both entities have searched all over the world for their data, as the Einstein people have stated for themselves.  They very clearly stated that out of their 400 centenarians, not one is a vegetarian. One of these institutions is incorrect.

Elderly Okinawans eat pork, and not so much soy product as American Big Agra and their TV ads would have us believe. There is absolutely no reason to eat any soy product as they are harmful over the long run, are estrogenic, so if you are male you are tweaking your own testosterone levels with this stuff. Livestock studies over animal generations have shown that eating soy causes birth defects in cattle, sheep, pigs.

http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/index.html

Lots of studies? Please provide the links as I have not been able to find any well constructed study that backs those claims.

I have no doubt that Robert Cheek can do what he claims, and I will tell you that he belongs to the 25% that can thrive without animal protein. The bottom line with vegetarians exhorting that the rest of us become vegetarians is that 75% of us can’t be healthy as such.

Mimi, if you’ve been looking for a completely soy-free mayonnaise, your nearest organic/health food store should carry Hain Kosher Mayonnaise. It comes in 100% safflower or canola and has no preservatives. I find I can tolerate this product.

#111 jessilikewhoa, Lierre Keith makes no claims to medical or academic credentials. She has written a book about the myths of vegetarianism after twenty years of excruciating body pain and bad health suffered as a result of stubbornly adhering to veganism. Some of the problems are now permanent. She is merely an individual who did more research after the last of an endless stream of physicians finally convinced her she had to eat meat or continue to suffer. She also runs her own farm, and has been able to use it to experiment first-hand with both methods of eating.

Don’t buy the book. Just go to your favorite bookstore and go through it. I find her arguments and logic irrefutable.

Just to let everyone know, in college I tried fasting for a week. After the third day I felt fantastic and it was easy to continue. Some time later I tried vegetarianism for two weeks—well it was only four or five days since I felt absolutely awful. For me, there was a real difference between no food at all and veggie food.

LCforevah, did you not read the study? The Einstein Institute isn’t actively searching for centenarians, they put out advertisments and people reply. You also didn’t seem to notice that they are only looking at Ashkenazi Jews. It should have been obvious that their’s is a sample since there are an estimated 100,000 centenarians in the US alone (roughly). If you do a google search of vegetarian centenarian you will find examples. Also, as an aside, I would expect few vegetarian centenarians in the US since there just aren’t that many of us (a poll in 204 found 2.8% said they were vegetarians, while a poll found 1% in 1971, and I would be surprised if it was even that high before the 1960s). it wouldn’t be all that surprising then that a sample of 400 didn’t find any (a little surprising, but not amazing—especially since other samples did find them—such as the New England Centenarian study).

You made the extraordinary claim that 75% of people do better eating mostly meat. I noticed that most centenarians in two large studies found that most of them ate little meat. The fact that they eat a little pork doesn’t contradict this. I could have just as easily said that the USDA recommendations contradict your statement since they recommend:

The Dietary Guidelines describe a healthy diet as one that

•Emphasizes fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and fat-free or low-fat milk and milk products;
•Includes lean meats, poultry, fish, beans, eggs, and nuts; and
•Is low in saturated fats, trans fats, cholesterol, salt (sodium), and added sugars.

Why look, at the top of the list is fruits, vegetables, and grains—not meat. In other words, my statement that you should eat lots of fruits and vegetables and grains is really what the government recommends. Since you are contadicting the US government guidelines that are based on many studies, you need to have extraordinary evidence—you have ‘There is a study ...’

As I said, the evidence that vegetarians live longer is mixed. If you go to vegetarianism at Wikipedia, you’ll find a bunch of links. The basic summary is that vegetarians have similar health results to non-veg (except they have much lower rates of ischemic heart disease) but that people who eat little meat do better than people who eat a lot. That doesn’t mean that everyone does better eating meat infrequently, but that most do.

Oy, not Lierre Keith.

Anecdotal evidence is, well, not really evidence.

Sorry, thanks for playing.

LCForevah, Weston A Price Foundation is so suspect they’ve got most of a page at quackwatch. Thus far I’m not impressed by your sources, all anecdote and bad science.
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holisticdent.html

Oh lord, further reading the article I see that the Weston A Price Foundation is anti-flouridation. So you’ve brought a book full of anecdotal evidence about ONE person’s experience and a quack foundation.

If we’re just tossing out anecdotes here, well, I already shared the story of the daily steak eating ex-boyfriend and his gout/high blood pressure; I’ll toss in that my mother was on the Atkins diet for a handful of years, and while she did lose weight as promised, she also lost half of her hair, coming out by the handful. Or I can share my own story, lifelong history of upper respiratory illness for the entirety of the midwest winter ‘til I went vegetarian three years ago, now I never get sick.

I don’t think a vegetarian/vegan diet is for everyone, I’m not a veg*n evangelical, and like I said, I dislike pro-veg*n woo like Kathy Freston too, but I just can’t stand bad science.

This is just too funny! Everything that vegetarians have said in comments I have found to be opposite to the good results that I have. My mother ate very little protein and lost her hair. I eat a lot more protein and am not experiencing the hair loss she did at my age. I cannot tolerate whole grains—they give me painful cramps. When I eat steak, I feel great. The boyfriend with the daily steak probably ate processed foods and grains along with it. Bad choice. Fluoridation? Why would you deliberately put poison inside your body?

I can’t link to every study I’ve already read that shows that soy, fluoride, grains, fiber, and so on are bad for you. So the next time I meet a veggie evangelical I will treat them with the same patience I give Jeebus freaks and just move on.

Right now I’m helping start a 501c3 with a young man who was a seventh day adventist and is now atheist. He has talked about his family’s vegetarianism, the infants and toddlers in his community who experienced “failure to thrive,” the special recipes that his mother would use to make protein out of various flours before there was soy protein. They took three days.  If we were meant to be vegetarian, why is it so hard and out-of-the-way to combine foods? There is no way to do these things during the millions of years or so hominids have been around without agriculture.

Loma Linda University Medical Center, founded by adventists, specializes in spinal problems—why? Because collapsing spines and brittle bones seem to be prevalent among adventists. I wonder why.

It’s disheartening to know the Weston A Price Foundation is a group of whackjobs; they were a rare source of information on getting raw milk in the U.S.; I didn’t realize was because they’re crazy anti-vegans.

On the other hand, it’s fascinating and a little humbling to see someone as obnoxious about eating meat as the stereotypical veg*n (though no actual vegetarians of my acquaintance) is about not.

Hershele you really are the funny! Rest assured that I don’t speak to vegetarians in person the way I write here. They are safe from me, as I don’t bother to proselytize about vlc eating either. What I do after a conversation with a vegetarian in which they have surely given me unsolicited advice, and my eyes have glazed over, I throw the advice in the metaphorical round file as I would with any other kind of evangelical advice.

Some of us are really, really, carbohydrate intolerant. I experience stomach cramps, lower leg edema, swelling of face, hands and feet, plus pain in same extremities. Not to mention a racing heartbeat or fatigue some twenty minutes after eating carbs.

It doesn’t matter whether it’s “good” carbs, or “bad” carbs, slow carbs or fast, they all cause me harm. No amount of dietary tweaking will alleviate this short of avoiding all carbs as much as possible.

LCForevah, what you describe sounds like multiple food allergies/sensitivities, I would NEVER recommend a vegetarian diet to someone who has allergic reactions to most vegetarian food sources, that would be ridiculous. My husband is vegan and I’m an ovo-lacto vegetarian in the loosest sense of the term, I eat dairy at most twice a week and eggs once every few months, but we’ve both discussed the possibility that our hypothetical children could have soy allergies or tree nut allergies or other food issues and agreed obviously the hypothetical child’s nutrition would be paramount and if that means eating meat then that’s what we’ll feed the kid. I don’t doubt there are irrational unpleasant vegetarians, every fringe subculture attracts a-holes, but most veg*ns I’ve met, even before I went veg have been really laid back and didn’t care much what others ate. On the other hand if I even mention I’m vegetarian in passing to omnivores I get lectures and defensiveness immediately.

One organization, the Weston A. Price Foundation, is actually engaged in a lawsuit on behalf of Illinois state prisoners who say they’re eating a diet made of largely soy protein. “In their letters, the prisoners have described deliberate indifference to a myriad of serious health problems caused by the large amounts of soy in the diet,” the WAP Foundation writes. “Complaints include chronic and painful constipation alternating with debilitating diarrhea, vomiting after eating, sharp pains in the digestive tract after consuming soy, passing out after soy-based meals, heart palpitations, rashes, acne, insomnia, panic attacks, depression and symptoms of hypothyroidism, such as low body temperature (feeling cold all the time), brain fog, fatigue, weight gain, frequent infections and an enlarged thyroid gland.”

This comes from an article on Alternet:

http://www.alternet.org/food/144074/the_war_on_soy:_why_the_’miracle_food’_may_be_a_health_risk_and_environmental_nightmare/?page=entire

Apparently I’m not the only one who gets these symptoms.