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Next entry: And we have a winner! Previous entry: Sorry, wingnuts, but you have to choose

Scenes from an induced misery culture

Family ValuesMoviesSex

I’m a day late on “Mad Men”, but will have a review up tomorrow.

From Jezebel, I discovered the sort of article that really reveals what Ambrose Bierce meant when he said, “Marriage, n: the state or condition of a community consisting of a master, a mistress, and two slaves, making in all, two.”  (Don’t worry, defensive married people!  I promise this isn’t a marriage-bashing post. Feel free to read ahead with hackles down.)  The article presumes that monogamous couplehood naturally results in time-consuming paranoia and endless vigilance, of the sort that really explains why some people simply decide that the whole thing is too much work.  In this case, it’s about the dangers to monogamy presented by social networking websites that carelessly allow shackled people to install members of the opposite sex into their networks.  Facebook, Twitter, and MySpace shamelessly allow people who’ve previously dated to friend each other, all without notifying the proper authority, who seems to be the user’s spouse.

We need new rules now.

How about these? You can look, but don’t make contact. Strike an agreement with your current partner that you will each disclose any Facebook friends you have slept with. Or, like Katie Robinson, limit your online “friends” to people of the same sex. “It is hard enough to have a relationship without the intrusion of people from your past,” says Ms. Robinson, a 33-year-old artist in Memphis, Tenn.

Some couples share their passwords. “If your bank accounts are common, why not your Twitter and Facebook accounts?” asks Clemson Smith Muñiz, a Spanish-language sports announcer in New York.

Naturally, what this results in is a “hilarious” story about a man who found that his Twitter list kept shrinking, because his wife was sneaking on and deleting any female followers.  Ah, love.  Without mutual hostility and distrust, how could live without it?

Well, easily, I’d think.  This doesn’t seem to me to be a way to live.  Presumably, we get into romantic relationships because they make us feel happier, and because we value having that kind of intimacy.  Monogamy is part of this for most, but by no means all, of us, but monogamy’s main attraction is that it’s consensual and based on trust, or so I thought.  My feeling on cheating paranoia has always been this: If your partner is in fact cheating, it’s going to hurt like hell when you find out no matter what, so why waste your precious time on this planet worrying about it?  Control over another person is ultimately an illusion, which is why trust is a much better option.  It may feel like maintaining a paranoid, suspicious mind will somehow take the edge off the pain when the time comes that you find out about the cheating, but it won’t.  And if they’re not cheating, then you’re making your and yours miserable for no good reason.  And if they weren’t inclined to cheat, your suspicion only ups the chances that they will.  A lot of people think, “If I’m going to get punished no matter what I do, I might as well enjoy it.” 

From a lot of corners of our culture, I see variations on this argument for monogamous relationships, which seems to be: “Sure, love is a miserable trap, but what other choice do you have?”  Which is a weak argument, because the alternatives are hardly unknown in a country where a slight majority of adult women live without a spouse and the divorce rate has been as high as 50%.  Take, for instance, this rash of romantic comedies that seem to be about how men and women can’t be expected to like each other or get along very well, but that they nonetheless need to pair off and proceed to hate the rest of their lives nearly as much as they fear making any changes.  At least the most popular examples of this—-“Knocked Up” and “High Fidelity”—-are enjoyable right up until the “happy” ending where two mismatched people look at each other and say, “Hey, it’s better than being alone, or if it’s not, at least we’ll tell ourselves that.”  But now it seems that rom coms are dispensing with the entertainment part and going straight for the cynical, depressing crap.  Lauren Bans saw “Couples Retreat” so you don’t have to, and she reports back on a lighthearted comedy that will make you want to join a nunnery.

Do you want to avoid eating at Applebee’s alone? Seriously. (And also, spoiler alert!) This is what Jon Favreau asks himself when the men reach the party island and he sees his wife dancing it up with a Fabioesque twentysomething. Keep in mind the two haven’t said a word to each other the entire vacation and are ready to divorce as soon as their daughter goes off to college, but one desperately frightening idea changes all of that: eating at a chain restaurant alone. Favreau confronts her, they fight, confess to cheating on each other, confess to hating each another, and then he says: “I don’t want to eat at Applebee’s alone.” Davis replies: “I don’t either.” Thus their marriage is saved. They’re not, how do you say ...  happy, exactly, but God, isn’t better to be an unhappily married person than one of these desperate dancing people out searching for the first offer that comes their way? And that’s the slightly depressing conclusion of Couples Retreat: Take what you have. Being alone is worse.

As a cynical person, I hate to see cynicism misused this way.  Cynicism is about puncturing people’s illusions, but the idea that men and women can like each other, and that they have more to offer each other than respite from being eating alone is an evidence-based assertion.  I don’t know about you, but I know a lot of happy couples that actually like each other.  This world painted by the WSJ article and “Couples Retreat”—-where miserable couples stay together solely because other miserable people might pity them for what? not glowering at a hated spouse over the dinner table?—-simply isn’t my experience.  Oh, I believe it exists, which is one reason I have repeatedly protested the institution of marriage that encourages the idea that love is trap instead of a choice.  (Though of course many married couples actively resist that, and view their relationship as a choice.)  But I just don’t understand why people get so caught up in the idea that this is how it has to be.  It doesn’t.  Married or unmarried, the world is thick with couples who actually like each other, proving that it’s not to much to ask.

Fundamentally, this view that love is a trap is a sexist one, as it’s based on the idea that men and women are simply too different to get along.  Usually, especially in these Hollywood comedies, it’s also based on the idea that the difference is that men are fun and interesting, and women are tedious, status-obsessed bores.  In the movies, men have friendships, a sense of adventure, and an ability to opine at length about rock music, and women have a strong desire to wear wedding dresses and look aggrieved at these baffling men, with their baffling lives that they want to live for reasons beyond simple-minded women.  In real life, however, you see that it’s completely possible for people to fall and stay in love because they find each other genuinely interesting.

My sense it that these movies are being made because there’s a demand for them.  The resolution where two people agree to set aside mutual animosity and live together because that’s what you do seems like a really obvious rationalization, and the only question is whether the movie-makers are rationalizing their own miserable marriages, or if they’re responding to a strong public desire to see bad choices rationalized.  The obvious answer is, “A little of both.”  A screenwriter who rationalizes his boring ass relationship will write a more authentic script that will speak to people in the audience making the same rationalizations, though of course it’s always possible that cynical screenwriters in passionate relationships are just very good at imagining what the audience wants to hear, and cranking that out. 

Frankly, I’m more interested in watching some more “Mad Men”, which deals with a couple that feels trapped in their marriage without trying to rationalize it as all for the best when it’s not.  Which is what I’m going to go do now.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:25 PM • (115) Comments

I can’t say I’m completely immune to the lure of jealousy, but I really don’t get this notion that one has to monitor one’s spouse’s contact with the outside world.  I’m embarrassed to say that I hardly ever read G’s blog (sorry, honey!) so it’s never even occurred to me that I should be monitoring whether he gets comments and if any of the commenters have ladyparts.

Comment #1: Mnemosyne  on  10/12  at  07:34 PM

I don’t understand the whole idea that any life the other person had before you is now dead.  Sure her reading poetry written about her by some past paramour isn’t the most comfortable way to spend the evening but that would even be more pleasant than feeling that you must track every single person she talks to.  People have lives that existed before me and exist independent of me.  I’m not really that important.

Comment #2: Robert  on  10/12  at  07:44 PM

Eating at Applebee’s alone isn’t so bad, actually. I think as more and more people find that being single and unpaired isn’t so bad, we might hope for movies to reflect that…you know, in a century or so.

Comment #3: Bethynyc  on  10/12  at  07:46 PM

it’s always possible that cynical screenwriters in passionate relationships are just very good at imagining what the audience wants to hear, and cranking that out.

I tend to think most people are happier than they imagine the rest of the world to be, so that would be my guess.

Comment #4: junk science  on  10/12  at  07:51 PM

I read my spouse’s blog, but mostly that’s so she doesn’t have to repeat her stories multiple times.  I already listen to them multiple times!

Personally, I know I don’t want to eat at Applebee’s alone, either.  So you know what? I don’t eat there if I can at all help it.

Instead of cheating on each other, what’s wrong with going out to the club, having fun, but knowing that tomorrow you have someone to share your life with?  Why can’t we have both?

I always give this advice to my must-have-spouse types:  Make yourself happy first.  Then other people will want to be happy with you.

Comment #5: Crissa  on  10/12  at  07:51 PM

Then again, maybe I just don’t like eating at chain restaurants.

Comment #6: Crissa  on  10/12  at  07:53 PM

If you think they’d object to Ambrose Bierce’s definition, what screams would resound after reading the following?:

Marriage is popular because it combines the maximum of temptation with the maximum of opportunity.   

  Marriage is the only legal contract which abrogates as between the parties all the laws that safeguard the particular relation to which it refers.   

The essential function of marriage is the continuance of the race, as stated in the Book of Common Prayer.   

The accidental function of marriage is the gratification of the amoristic sentiment of mankind.   

The artificial sterilization of marriage makes it possible for marriage to fulfil its accidental function whilst neglecting its essential one.   

The most revolutionary invention of the XIX century was the artificial sterilization of marriage.   

Any marriage system which condemns a majority of the population to celibacy will be violently wrecked on the pretext that it outrages morality.

G. B. Shaw, Maxims for Revolutionists, Man and Superman

Comment #7: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/12  at  08:00 PM

The answer, of course, is that one should not eat at Applebee’s, because the food is crap and if you’re alone, putting up with other people’s kids is irritating.

I’ve been married for 17 years, and I like my husband.  A lot.  We agreed before we decided to marry that if it all went sideways, opting out was better than living with someone who makes you miserable.  So far, not an issue.  In 8 or 15 or 25 years, that could change.  People don’t remain static, so why should we expect a marriage to do so?

Being in a relationship is not a requirement for happiness, nor does it consign you to being miserable.  There is always a choice, even if the choices in front of you sometimes suck.  If it’s not mostly happy, get out.  Everyone will be better for it, including - and especially - any offspring you may be raising.

I took one look at the ad for that movie, turned to my husband, and said “There is nothing that would make me watch that trash.”  He smiled, agreed, and went back to chatting with his ex-girlfriend on Facebook.  She’s a lovely woman, who could not be more pleased that the two of them did not end up together.  I’m that way with my exes, too.  That’s why they’re exes.  Doesn’t mean we can’t have a good time talking about the things we’re doing with our lives now.  In fact, it’s sort of affirming that we all found our own paths and are treading them just fine, whether we’re in relationships or not.

I think the fundamental problem with both jealousy issues and feeling trapped into relationships is the fear that, if left alone, people would have to come to terms with themselves.  Some of us manage to do that while also maintaining healthy, happy relationships, but I suspect we weren’t as afraid of what we might find if we ended up alone.

Comment #8: Reba  on  10/12  at  08:05 PM

I dunno, watching miserable people admit that they are the source of their miserableness is kinda funny.

Comment #9: Crissa  on  10/12  at  08:12 PM

I’m 39, been single my whole life, and yeah, it’s really annoying going to dining restaurants where you sit down and have to leave a tip alone. So I don’t, I go with my parents and such, and tend towards snatch-and-grab fast food places when I need to. It sucks the world privileges couples but that’s how things go. Couples and families with small children pay better, so the restaurants cater to them, not me.

Comment #10: Mark Temporis  on  10/12  at  08:18 PM

I’m really pissed off at the lumping-in of High Fidelity in the same gene pool that gave us tripe like 500 Days Of Summer, Away We Go & Anything w/ Jenifer Aniston In It.  I’m also royally chipped at it being mentioned in the same sentance as The Movie Who’s Name I Refuse To Speak.

I don’t have the time to expand in how way off the mark the comparison was, but I couldn’t head off to work w/o sounding off about it.  I promise to post on the subject later today / this week.

Urg.

Comment #11: Smartpatrol  on  10/12  at  08:23 PM

I don’t want to eat at Applebee’s at all. But both Ms. F and I quite enjoy the opportunity to eat lunch or dinner by ourselves, with a book.

Comment #12: felagund  on  10/12  at  08:24 PM

Reading this I can’t help but think of our neighbor. He appears to be in his late 30s, married with a young child. He spends every fucking weekend getting drunk with his obnoxious friends in the driveway. I actually watched his wife lock him out one night as he stumbled about the neighborhood. His marriage appears to be miserable for he and his wife.

Of course, they (or at least he, we’ve never spoken to her) don’t view that misery as some atypical problem, but as the natural state of marriage. Ever since Dan and I got married earlier this summer he accosts Dan, regardless of whether I’m there or not, to ask how married life is, and to inquire if we’ve had a big fight yet (as though marriage must have magically changed us, and our three previous years of happy cohabitation was a fluke). When the response is “no” he always says something along the lines of “well, just wait! It’ll happen!” The last time this happened he added that when it happens Dan should head over and join him for a beer. That Dan and he aren’t friends, and that we’ve repeatedly told him we don’t drink, appears to be irrelevant. I’m lucky that he ignores me and only speaks to Dan, it must be the magical cloaking device that my vagina came equipped with.

This neighbor who we only know in passing is actively rooting against Dan and I having a happy marriage. For his world-view to be confirmed Dan and I must be miserable, and I guess he figures then he and Dan can become BFFs drinking and complaining about how women are “bitches” together. It’s both offensive to me personally, and depressing. I feel sorry for his wife.

Comment #13: jessilikewhoa  on  10/12  at  08:37 PM

People, we already know you hate Applebees. You’re not going to score any more cool points by being the 10th person to predictably point that out.

Comment #14: Hippie Killer  on  10/12  at  08:46 PM

Of course none of you will be going to Applebee’s; your elitists!  I can’t imagine you being at the salad bar!

Please read with your sarcasm meters activated

Comment #15: themann1086  on  10/12  at  09:00 PM

I must be some sort of freak, because I enjoy dining alone, especially, as felagund says, with a book—though this works better for lunch than for dinner, what with the mood lighting and ambiance and all that crap that prevents me from being able to see the words on the page.

Or, if that’s not appealing, one could always make dinner for oneself and eat while reading, watching a movie, talking to a friend on the phone, whatever.

Or, you could go out to dinner with some friends.

Or, you could invite your friends over for a fun potluck dinner.

etc.  This premise is so idiotic I can’t even express my disgust in words.  If you don’t really enjoy someone’s company, why do you want to keep eating dinner with them?

Comment #16: LauraB  on  10/12  at  09:02 PM

If I remember the ending of High Fidelity (the book) correctly, the movie absolutely qualifies as a rom-com sanitizing of an ending which involves the narrator stating something like “I guess Laura is who I’ve ended up with, and I think anyone would hate being stuck like this.”

Comment #17: Auguste  on  10/12  at  09:05 PM

What, the patriarchy screws over both men and women? Who knew.

Comment #18: paul  on  10/12  at  09:14 PM

High Fidelity (the movie) makes no fucking sense unless you’ve completely internalized this whole “being alone is worse than anything” mentality.

Rob clearly isn’t going to be miserable if he’s single.  He clearly enjoys going out and having adventures and acquiring new stories to tell.  And Marie provides a crystal clear example of what his life could be like if he stopped obsessing over eventually settling down.

But he doesn’t come to terms with his own inclinations, he decides to suppress them because… that’s what people do?

Also: I kind of like Applebees.  And Chili’s.  AND ALSO DON HENLEY’S OEUVRE

Comment #19: Ferox  on  10/12  at  09:19 PM

Fundamentally, this view that love is a trap is a sexist one, as it’s based on the idea that men and women are simply too different to get along.  Usually, especially in these Hollywood comedies, it’s also based on the idea that the difference is that men are fun and interesting, and women are tedious, status-obsessed bores.

Or that men are infantilized by their bossy-boss wives.  Here’s a conversation that went down just this morning over breakfast with the visiting in-laws:

Husband: Yeah, my new computer was a little on the spendy side, but it’s amazing and it makes me happy because it runs this awesome new MMO called Champions. 
Father-in-law: [looking at me]: You let him buy himself a new computer?
Me: Um, your son can do whatever he likes with his extra, non-household and non-savings money, just as I do.

I hate that meme—that “wifey has to give permission for everything little thing hubby does” meme.  So, hallelujah to what shines above in blockquote.

Comment #20: Ranylt  on  10/12  at  09:30 PM

...it must be the magical cloaking device that my vagina came equipped with.

I KNEW it…

Comment #21: Sour Kraut  on  10/12  at  09:32 PM

Man, I just watched High Fidelity this evening with, as a matter of fact, a friend who’s going through a rough patch in her almost decade long relationship. She’d never seen it, but I saw it when it came out. Didn’t like it then ‘cause all the music snob stuff hit way too close to home. Watching it now just reminded me why I don’t do that anymore. ‘Cause it’s obnoxious and boring.

Anyhow, my friend. Long story short, her and her man are both miserable in their dead-end relationship but for reasons sensible and silly, they’re staying together at least through next spring. She didn’t care for the movie much, partly because of the “it’s better to be miserable than alone” theme that pops up near the end. “Fuck that bullshit,” says my friend during the post-film discussion and dishwashing (‘cause it was her turn to cook). “At least when you’re alone, you’re not constantly reminded of how much you wish that motherfucker would just leave.”

That being said, something my thirties have taught me is that being alone is fucking tough sometimes. I’m about to uproot my life and move to New Orleans, all by my lonesome, and at times I’m struck by how much tougher it is now than it was when I was 25 and just up and moved to Athens for no real good reason. I don’t reckon I’ll ever get married and, if I do, it definitely won’t be for that reason, but I can almost understand the mindset that an uncomfortable marriage beats figuring out what to do with leftover jambalaya again, much less going through all that work cooking for one. Especially given how the thought’s pounded into your head by society.

jessielikewhoa,

I got a former co-worker like your neighbor. A mutual friend, upon announcing his engagement, told me, “Man, don’t even tell Jeff. I don’t want to hear him tell me how miserable I’m going to be for the rest of my life.” \

Comment #22: Matt T.  on  10/12  at  09:37 PM

A guiding principle for what is now my marriage has always been that spouse and I are two separate people who have separate lives and selves.  I tend toward annoying clinginess, so it’s been a bit of a challenge for me to keep up - but it’s rewarding.  One thing I hated about getting married was how people stopped dropping by our place - like we needed some privacy for smothering each other.

Comment #23: saraeanderson  on  10/12  at  09:57 PM

@jessielikewhoa I swear, we must live in the same neighborhood, because there’s a guy just like that four doors down. He likes to accost the mister while he’s out walking the dog and tell him about how all women are money-grubbing whores and if he knew then what he knows now, he’d never let that broad tie him down, no way!

He is then always, always shocked to hear that the mister and I have been married for almost a decade. He always asks (and I believe this is the most telling), “What do you even talk about?” To which the mister replies, “Stuff.”

I know the wife slightly; she has indicated that they got married because it’s What People Do, and that they had a baby after a year because it’s also What People Do. She has also indicated that she doesn’t like her husband as a person and they would never qualify as friends outside of the relationship. I am always so troubled to hear that, because I could never commit years of my life to someone I didn’t enjoy and respect and want to hang out with everyday. But on the flip side, she’s scornful of our marriage—men and women can’t be friends, just like they claim in “When Harry Met Sally.” Men need to be friends with men and women need to be friends with women, period.

I still can’t believe that I had bits of a Nora Ephron movie quoted to me as solid gospel.

Comment #24: Ticky  on  10/12  at  09:57 PM

I have no intention of seeing “Couples Retreat,” but I was kind of disappointed to see that Kristen Davis is in it. She was the only “Sex and the City” woman I really liked.

Comment #25: Bitter Scribe  on  10/12  at  09:58 PM

He is then always, always shocked to hear that the mister and I have been married for almost a decade.

So does this guy have short-term memory loss, or what? Usually, when someone tells me something like that about themselves, I remember it the next time I see them.

Comment #26: Bitter Scribe  on  10/12  at  10:01 PM

What a depressing-sounding movie; now I want to see it even less than I did before. I eat at chain restaurants alone because I like to, even though I’m happily married. I win?

Comment #27: Tesla Dethray  on  10/12  at  10:21 PM

Eating at Applebee’s alone would suck, as the 2 for $20 deal is the only thing it’s got going for it, but that can easily be avoided by not going to Applebee’s unless you have a friend with you.  Even with the deal it’s only on my radar because it’s one place that 5+ persnickety people can agree on for lunch.  As far as coupling goes, I enjoy the occasional restaurant meal with my ex and it’s been quite pleasant since we ended our argumentative farce of a relationship.  Sitting across the table from someone you can’t stand is not comfortable.

I do have a friend who has the password to his girlfriend’s email and was all in a snit about stuff he’d read from her archive bin, but he also seems to accept the flipside of all that mistrust, and that couple forgives each other’s transgressions pretty easily.  It seems like if you’re going to look for trouble you will eventually find it, and not adding each real or imagined betrayal into a festering cesspit of recriminations seems to be a big part of making that arrangement work.

Comment #28: Kyso K  on  10/12  at  10:25 PM

I’m another one who likes to eat alone. Especially breakfast. (Didn’t Sartre say “hell is other people at breakfast?”) I know a lot of people who feel sorry for me if they see me out and eating alone, but I’d rather eat in peace with a newspaper/book than at a noisy family table.

But then I feel like I live in Opposite World anyhow because I have always been happier when I’m not in a heavy LTR. Right now I live with 2 cats, am involved with 3 partners, and enjoy a tremendous amount of freedom - financial, sexual, you name it. I cannot imagine trading this life for anything approximating the past live-in monogamous relationships I dutifully suffered through in my 20’s.  I guess I am cynical, because I just don’t see many happy couples - I know a few, but the vast majority seem to fall into silence or negativity or deceit after a certain number of years. What bugs me about the “we hate each other but at least we’re not alone” movies is that they never show any options other than lonely solitude or bickering coupledom. People are designing their own relationship styles these days, from live-apart monogamy to polyamory to you name it, but you never see that as an option. God forbid Hollywood show people being happy!

Comment #29: Veronica  on  10/12  at  10:47 PM

I’m always amazed at people who quote “When Harry Met Sally” as gospel.  I saw it once when I was like, 16, and could at least vaguely buy everything in it.  Then I saw it again in my 20s, and realize that the only way this movie is coherent is if you watch it as two deeply dysfunctional, self-loathing people who live by a bizarre system of rules they’ve made up.  They justify it by pretending it applies to anyone, and then get together because they’re afraid of being alone.  It’s a dark comedy.

Pretending it gives an accurate view of adult interaction is like thinking “To kill a mockingbird” gives you instructions on how to kill mockingbirds.

Comment #30: Billingham  on  10/12  at  10:48 PM

I haven’t seen Couples Retreat, and have absolutely no desire to waste my money, however, in reading the Lauren Bans quote about the cheating couple, it strikes me that BOTH spouses are having affairs and yet they’re afraid of ending up alone. They’re capable of meeting and at least having sex with other people but they think that if they get divorced they won’t meet anyone else? I hate to say maybe I need to see the film in context but as it stands that just makes no sense.

And I eat at restaurants by myself A LOT. At first, just sitting there, with no one the talk to, I felt weird. But then, as many other people have pointed out, I discovered the power of Bringing Something To Read. And it’s never been an issue since. Living in Los Angeles I constantly see people at restaurants eating by themselves and almost all of them have employed this tactic. And even without it, eating alone isn’t such a big deal.

Comment #31: UltraMagnus  on  10/12  at  10:53 PM

Husband: Yeah, my new computer was a little on the spendy side, but it’s amazing and it makes me happy because it runs this awesome new MMO called Champions.

Father-in-law: [looking at me]: You let him buy himself a new computer?
Me: Um, your son can do whatever he likes with his extra, non-household and non-savings money, just as I do.

I hate that meme—that “wifey has to give permission for everything little thing hubby does” meme.  So, hallelujah to what shines above in blockquote.


If parents of adult children felt the need for their child’s spouse act as a budget cop that, I’m sorry….but that speaks volumes about the in-laws’ faith in their own parenting abilities and whether their child can avoid the pitfalls of being a spendthrift…..

Comment #32: exholt  on  10/12  at  11:10 PM

they got married because it’s What People Do, and that they had a baby after a year because it’s also What People Do

Gah!  This attitude makes my head asplode.  The damage it causes is immeasurable, yet it persists.

Comment #33: Kristen from MA  on  10/12  at  11:18 PM

Pretending it gives an accurate view of adult interaction is like thinking “To kill a mockingbird” gives you instructions on how to kill mockingbirds.

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/mockingbird

Clearly that is what it’s about.

Comment #34: Ferox  on  10/12  at  11:20 PM

BOTH spouses are having affairs and yet they’re afraid of ending up alone. They’re capable of meeting and at least having sex with other people but they think that if they get divorced they won’t meet anyone else? I hate to say maybe I need to see the film in context but as it stands that just makes no sense.

This may spring from the marital sub-myth that people only want to f*ck you when you belong to somebody else and that your availability will kill other people’s desire for you.

Comment #35: seeker6079  on  10/12  at  11:21 PM

Also, sex is more fun when it’s shrouded in guilt, resentment, and melodrama.

Comment #36: junk science  on  10/12  at  11:32 PM

They don’t call it Crapplebee’s on the East Side for nothin’.

And who didn’t tell me that Brooke has a movie career now?

Comment #37: norbizness  on  10/12  at  11:35 PM

You LIE.
It is, indeed, a marriage-bashing post.
Comment #38: wang-chung on 10/12 at 10:49 PM

no, YOU CAN’T READ.

Comment #38: jessilikewhoa  on  10/12  at  11:52 PM

Suggesting that staying in an unhappy marriage is worse than being single is only marriage-bashing if you assume all marriages are unhappy. Which is a fair assumption for a wingnut to make, since they don’t realize other people aren’t as miserable company as they are.

Comment #39: junk science  on  10/13  at  12:05 AM

Eating at restaurants with others is much more weird feeling to me than eating alone ever has been.  Then again, I’ve been carrying a book and/or magazine around with me everywhere I go since early childhood - and I had every kids’ placemat memorized.  Eating whatever I want, with whatever beverage I feel like, taking as much or as little home in a doggy bag, these are things that make me comfortable.  Playing the, “hmm, I wonder, will anyone else order a beer, or is this a soda night, is anyone doing appetizers, are we ordering an assortment and everyone will sample everyone else’s, or are these discrete plates that don’t get shared other than with the significant other?  Will they think me a cheapskate if I ask for a box, or have I mentioned my love of leftovers with this group?” game is just more nerve-wracking than relaxing.  And the whole point of having someone bring you food that you didn’t have to cook but is something that you want is to be relaxing.

Even if it’s just the man and myself, and the social minefield questions aren’t relevant, as we have them worked out, I often find myself completely unable to carry on a conversation with him all of a sudden, even though we’re pretty much non-stop conversationalists when it’s the two of us, or we’re with friends and/or family.  There just never seems to be any safe conversational topics in public other than the restaurant itself, and that’s just not interesting to talk about when you’re used to REAL and/or supremely silly conversations.  But, most of our standard conversation topics are just not appropriate in public where other people are in close proximity for extended periods of time, especially not in the deep south.  He’s got a Blackberry to keep himself amused, I’m having to work out that “bringing reading material to the table when others are there is rude to them” issue when the others are also wanting to do some light reading.  If both of us are reading, and would rather have the other reading than staring at each other wondering why we suddenly can’t carry on a conversation.

Oh, I guess the man’s issues with being around crowds and being generally unable to relax around stangers makes it more likely that couple-dining will be less comfortable than alone.  Even with coworkers, it’s just not relaxing and fun to eat out with others the way it is to eat alone.

So, that whole premise would strike me as not even remotely true to life, since it’s so alien to my life, even though I’ve known plenty of people who would rather get a root canal from Orly Taitz, while she’s talking about birth certificates and showing pictures of rental properties than go see a movie that they REALLY want to see alone.  Thankfully, the number of people like that anywhere near my life has dwindled to just a few, and the people who are still willing to be obvious that they’d prefer any relationship, no matter how crappy, to being happily alone all seemed to disappear around our late 20s.

Comment #40: Djinna  on  10/13  at  12:11 AM

Interestingly enough, me and my partner have been having a number of discussions along these lines as we try and sort out stuff in deciding whether or not to wed in a couple of years. The central thing on the table has been the idea that we won’t even think about it if there is any internalization of the “supposed to” marriage trap notions that are about enforcing some “well I guess I’ll take you notion” glaze on a gender role shit sandwich.

In truth, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the “well I’ve married you, now we’re stuck together even if we hate each other” idea as well as the “but alone is so much worse than being miserable (how does that work?)” idea. To me, a marriage is or at least should be a formal declaration of an assumption of permanence based on the relationship lasting awhile and meeting its core need. The core need of a relationship being of course the mutual happiness of both partners. If the people are no longer happy, then the institution’s continuance is just for the sake of an institution. And since this institution only consists of the two (for the most part) people in it, then that continuation is literally for no one at all. It’s madness.

Of course, I also think enforced monogamy is for tossers and we’re poly (and don’t plan on changing after marriage (because it’d be cruel to my partner to be stuck with only an asexual for sexual needs for the rest of her life)) so we’re already one foot out in the debate.

On the plus side, if we decide to go through with it, we’ll definitely be standing up for what marriage should be in our practice of it.

And based on what I’ve seen of successful and unsuccessful marriages, the trick seems to be not letting the “traditional ideals” mess up the successful dynamic the couple had while dating… that and actually test-driving the relationship until at least the end of NRE so that the hormones aren’t blinding anyone to the massive personality clashes.

Comment #41: Cerberus  on  10/13  at  12:15 AM

I’ve known plenty of people who would rather get a root canal from Orly Taitz, while she’s talking about birth certificates and showing pictures of rental properties than go see a movie that they REALLY want to see alone.

I love movies alone. I used to work at a movie theater, and one of the big perks was free movies. If I got off work early and had nothing to do I would settle in to watch whatever looked good, even if I had watched it already. I focus so much better on films when I watch them by myself, and there’s a sense of magic when you watch a movie alone, you become a part of the action on screen in that the whole mood of the film sucks you in.

Comment #42: jessilikewhoa  on  10/13  at  12:21 AM

I got a lot happier when I decided that there was really nothing shameful about eating out by myself.  That bit of social conditioning was causing me all sorts of grief.  Most of the time, I’d still rather have good company when I’m eating out, but sometimes I just want a tasty meal I didn’t have to cook for myself.  I guess it takes practice to learn how to be alone, even for an introvert, when society is pushing so hard for everybody to couple up.  I do wish that solitary living weren’t so severely punished financially though.

Comment #43: libdevil  on  10/13  at  12:21 AM

I’ll admit to avoiding restaurants when I’m eating alone and indulging when I’m with my partner or a group of friends, but then that has little to do with feeling all lonely and depressed and more to do with the fact that my brain starts beating me up as being decadent because I’m a poor college student. Plus, if you go as a couple, you can split the dishes and not only get to try the dessert, but you save money and eat less doing so, win-win.

I can’t imagine going to a restaurant with someone who hates you though. Anyone who has been out on the town with a friend who’s cranky or utterly depressed knows that the time between ordering and eating can just drag-the-fuck-out while you’re trying to knock them out of it. I can’t imagine what pleasure someone would get out of spending that time in uncomfortable silence punctuated by barbed comment. How is eating alone not preferable to that? At least then, you can daydream or read a book or play some DS.

Comment #44: Cerberus  on  10/13  at  12:23 AM

40-

I used to do a lot of movies alone before they started getting prohibitively expensive and I started feeling like I needed an excuse to make it a special trip. Oddly enough, this always makes it twice as expensive as I’m usually inviting an even poorer friend and covering them the price of the ticket…

To be fair to myself, I’ve mostly replaced the theatre experience with the home rental experience, because then you can snuggle under a blanket in your pj’s and stop it if it gets too offensive or shitty.

Comment #45: Cerberus  on  10/13  at  12:28 AM

Eating out alone is my Me Time, because it’s a way to get away from the distractions of the home office and either concentrate on work or on not having any demands on my attention at all.  I don’t know how other people survive without having some time just being alone with their thoughts.  I’m lucky I can carve that out for myself.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/13  at  12:52 AM

My parents married because That’s What You Do and by the time I was a teenager, I was begging both of them to get a divorce.  They were totally mismatched as people and didn’t divorce because my mom’s religion forbade it.  Gah, the misery they inflicted on us kids, to the point that during one six month period, they only talked to each other through us (“Honey, tell your dad I’m going to be late coming home from work” etc.).  Divorce may suck for kids but having your parents being in a bitter, cold and loveless marriage is even worse.

Comment #47: Henry Holland  on  10/13  at  01:00 AM

I’m not really what one would call a foodie, so eating out alone rarely has much interest to me—it’s cheaper to eat at home, and the expense of eating out is only worth it if the experience is time well-spent with friends or my S.O. When I do eat alone, I bring a book or magazine. After all, what else would I do with my time?

As far as going to movies alone? I do that all the time. The experience of seeing a movie alone isn’t that different than seeing it with a friend. Some people just don’t know what to do with themselves on their own.

Comment #48: Tyro  on  10/13  at  01:08 AM

The only reasons I don’t like eating alone are:

1.  I often need to get up and go to the bathroom, and I don’t want to leave my stuff at the table, but I don’t want to take it with me and make them think I ran off without paying.

2.  I feel like I need to eat and get out, because once my food is done I have no reason to stay.  (Also see #1.  If I’ve already paid, they’ll just assume I’ve gone.  Also, they never want to give me refills after my meal is finished.  Because why on earth would I want to stay?)

But eating out with people is annoying too, especially when they want to split the check evenly.  I never eat much (see #1) and don’t drink, and always end up paying for someone else’s food or alcohol.  Last time I went out, I paid $25 when my food came to less than $15.  Annnnnoying.  And if it’s a dude, he always thinks he has to pay OR he eats 3x as much as I do and wants to split the check evenly.  Nooooo this is not how it works.  I will pay for what I eat, and you pay for what you eat.  It is very simple.

Anyway, I don’t quite understand those “just what people do” relationships, but I see enough of them.  I live in a country where couples never really look “in love” and it always seems like people do the marriage and babies thing because they’re supposed to.  I watch couples walking down the street who are standing four or five feet apart and who sit through meals saying nothing to each other.  I wonder what on earth they have in common or why they’re together.  Sometimes I feel like my parents are still together because it’s easier than not being together, but I feel like my parents do still have common interests and generally like each other.  They certainly don’t and hardly ever have fought.  But I think it helps that they do a lot of things separately. 

What really frustrates the crap out of me is when I mention that I live alone because I can’t stand living with other people.  And then the other person replies, “Just wait til you get married.”  Uhhh what?  If I can’t stand living with other people, that applies to everyone.  Unless my hypothetical husband is going to live in another city, it ain’t gonna work.  Period.  And “just wait” ... as if marriage is going to fall from the sky and land in my lap.  It’s like the “just wait til you have kids” folks.  Uhhhh no?  I’m not sure if you still believe in the stork or what.  And all these comments just lead me to believe in the whole “misery loves company” thing.

Comment #49: BonAppetit  on  10/13  at  01:11 AM

As others have commented, some of us like to eat alone. I had to give up many of my delightful solitary meals for marriage, but everything has a price, and my husband is worth it. We also like to eat together while we both read the paper or our books, so that works out well at times.

I enjoy eating alone at home, out, anywhere. Also, I naturally like to eat 2 meals a day, and others seem to prefer 3, so if I try to have all my meals with my SO, the timing is a bit off. No big deal. We work around it, and enjoy ourselves.

Agree with this article: Life is too short to spend it jealous and paranoid. And nothing would drive my husband and me away from each other faster. We are a bit low-drama—even boring?—but since we found each other, it all works out, eh? And we will not be going to this movie; sounds pointless and depressing.

Comment #50: means are the ends  on  10/13  at  01:11 AM

Henry, I hear you! I’m still begging my parents to divorce and I’ve been out of the house almost 10 years. It actually wasn’t bad when I was a little kid, but now they really are just miserable, and thinking they’d be more miserable alone for some reason. They’ve been together longer than they’ve been apart, so I guess they just don’t know anything else, and change is scary. They used to use the excuse “for the kids” but all the kids are grown up and they’ve just come up with more excuses to stay together.

I sometimes wonder if this is one of my reasons for being against marriage… I don’t even want to label my relationship with the same label my parents give theirs!!

Comment #51: slingshot  on  10/13  at  01:17 AM

”As far as going to movies alone? I do that all the time. The experience of seeing a movie alone isn’t that different than seeing it with a friend.”

I haven’t seen gone to see a movie since I lost my wife, mostly because there haven’t been any recent block-buster movies that I really, really wanted to see.  I’d rather rent a cheesy low-budget horror movie

I suppose I’d be willing to go alone because, yeah, you’re quietly watching the movie anyway

I’ll eat out alone from time to time, but you always get the impression that they really wish you weren’t taking up a 2 person table and cutting profits in half.  Sure there polite about it but I agree with this:
”2. I feel like I need to eat and get out, because once my food is done I have no reason to stay.  (Also see #1.  If I’ve already paid, they’ll just assume I’ve gone.  Also, they never want to give me refills after my meal is finished.  Because why on earth would I want to stay?)”

Comment #52: jefft452  on  10/13  at  01:55 AM

I have more female than male Facebook friends. My partner’s ex-husband is one of the male ones. My sister is one of the female.

Said partner has the aforementioned ex-husband, my ex-girlfriend, and a man she dated before he came out.

Comment #53: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/13  at  02:18 AM

I’ll admit to avoiding restaurants when I’m eating alone and indulging when I’m with my partner or a group of friends, but then that has little to do with feeling all lonely and depressed and more to do with the fact that my brain starts beating me up as being decadent because I’m a poor college student.

Ditto for the above along with my personal feeling that eating out is enhanced when one is doing it with good company, especially friends, SOs, or good acquaintances/family.  If I wanted to eat alone, I’d opt for ordering to take out, eating at home or bringing a homemade meal with me to a public area with decent scenery like a local park.  Eating alone in a restaurant to me is pointless when I end up paying for the meal with tip and it is boring as I tend to have issues reading/computing in restaurants due to noise and the disturbing number of incidents where careless patrons or waiters have spilled something on my table when passing by.

Comment #54: exholt  on  10/13  at  03:35 AM

Personally, I don’t get the idea of individual non-household cash.  I know it’s said that couples who have personal accounts are somehow better, but… I got into a relationship to be equals.  How is it equal if we don’t talk about expensive (I think of computers as expensive, maybe that father in law did as well) purchases and budgets.

If my spouse kept her money to herself, and only paid half of rent and half of whatever, how would I pay my half when I’m unemployed?  We’re partners, not roommates.  She can make far more money than I… And I can use my extra free time to make sure the taxes and bills are done and deal with the math and the basic grocery shopping.  And it’s been reversed, but I’ve only made minimum wage, so that didn’t last long!

Of course, she uses the TV that I won for her own computer monitor, and decided we should buy a TV for me to have because of it.  And we discuss things like that.  “I would like to have X.” she says, and I reply, “It will take Y to get X.” or maybe, “X is below what you can spend this month without asking.”  And so it is.

Communication, whoda thunk it?

Comment #55: Crissa  on  10/13  at  04:06 AM

Crissa,

Myself and two other co-workers talked about how finances worked out within our relationship, and it seems that amongst the three couples, there were three entirely different ways of working things out.

1) One couple were “equal” (your word) entirely. One bank account, one credit card, no individual cash, etc.. And they couldn’t imagine anything else.

2) Myself and my wife had one joint account for joint expenses (rent, etc.) ONLY, and otherwise kept our incomes and spending habits entirely independent. In fact my wife told me before we moved in that she has her own job, her own money and that NOBODY would tell her how to spend her goddamn money. An attitude I agreed with. and which made it easier to get together.

3) And then there was the third co-worker, who had NO joint account with her husband. Instead, since each worked, each paid all of the month’s bills on an every-other-month basis. When I asked about a joint account scenario she replied, “If we had had a joint account we’d have been divorced within six months. As it is, we have been married fifteen years and this works fine.”

That was fifteen years ago now, and all three couples are still together. Who’da thunk it?

Crissa, telling people that there is one way to manage money in an LTR is like telling people there’s one way to have sex in an LTR.

Comment #56: Hairhead  on  10/13  at  04:35 AM

Applebee’s has curbside takeout.

Comment #57: JennyLI  on  10/13  at  06:09 AM

Amanda’s right in that trusting is the best way to live.  The only flaw I see is the damage that can occur when trust is abused, but that’s inevitable in most cases anyhow.  Most relationships fail, and it’s a false hope that failure can be avoided if only one person tries super hard to make it work.  Still, it’s not just jealousy that makes some suspicion justified, but self-preservation.  Once finances, lives, and especially children enter the picture, keeping some tabs on the other person makes some sense.  Peeking into the spouse’s life can go overboard, but so can trust.  Still, trust should be the default mode, not control.

Comment #58: 3letterjon  on  10/13  at  06:27 AM

54-

Definitely. My latest favorite thing is to either get something really good from one of the street vendors or whip up something at home, pack it up and go for a hike in the woods and either eat while hiking or find a nice meadow or hillside and eat while reading a book. Either that or make up something at home to be ready for me when I get back from a nice long hike.

Comment #59: Cerberus  on  10/13  at  08:02 AM

I’m 100% with Hairhead, I think we all have to work out what works best for us in our relationship. I also personally use his method of joint account for joint expense because I could NEVER in a million years imagine discussing the personal expenses I make with my OWN hard-earned money with my partner. I could never imagine having him having to ask me “permission” to buy something…

Comment #60: Scarlet  on  10/13  at  08:07 AM

Also, “X is below what you can spend this month without asking”???

To each their own and if it works for your relationship, more power to you both, but fuckin ASKING???
We’re partners, not parents and children…

Comment #61: Scarlet  on  10/13  at  08:10 AM

“Applebee’s has curbside takeout.”

Yup.  I don’t really like eating out alone.  Fortunately, pretty much every place on the face of the planet does take-out, so I doubt this will ever stand in the way of me being able to consume, say, Applebee’s food.

Comment #62: preying mantis  on  10/13  at  08:14 AM

Scarlet, asking makes sense in some circumstances. If you’ve merged your finances in any way - and most couples who live together or have kids do, to some extent - then some proportion of the money coming in isn’t clear-cut “yours” any more. Also, even joint purchases often benefit one person more than the other (e.g. in my relationship, the dishwasher benefits both of us, but him more than me because he hates washing-up worse than I do; the espresso machine benefits both of us, but it’s me who really wanted it in the first place). It can make sense for both partners to have right of veto over the spending of “their” money.

Of course, if it’s always one person asking permission of the other, that power balance will get toxic pretty fast. But a mutual “consult your partner before buying something over £100” rule can be perfectly reasonable, and I know lots of couples who do something like that.

We have a system, if you can call something so disorganised a system, with three bank accounts containing “my” “his” and “our” money, which sort of works.

Comment #63: MissPrism  on  10/13  at  08:35 AM

If parents of adult children felt the need for their child’s spouse act as a budget cop that, I’m sorry….but that speaks volumes about the in-laws’ faith in their own parenting abilities and whether their child can avoid the pitfalls of being a spendthrift…..

I agree (the dad has borderline personality who is perpetually jealous of his successful son, so you called it), although I get the same thing from him when it doesn’t involve cash, and I get it from other people too (and hear other women get it all the time).  “Let me ask the boss, hyuk hyuk hyuk!” So damned patronizing.

Crissa, you make some assumptions that seem to need assuaging: (1) we communicate all the time about everything under the earth, including money. I knew the PC was coming since we talked about it beforehand—but I never felt it was my place to give him the go-ahead, and I sure didn’t see the problem partly because; (2) his other one was nearly 7 years old; (3) when one of us is out of work or makes less, we have (and will do again if needed) adjusted to it and done the prorated/mutual support thing (so please don’t worry about us); (4) I’m earning my share and have money in savings (so please don’t worry about me); (5) Husband is very careful with his money and most goes to monthly expenses and savings because we’re responsible, minimally-consumy anxiety-ridden ponces about the future who won’t even shell out for a second car even though we live in the sticks; (6) I will never ever ever ever ever give up my personal bank accounts (and the one shared ‘house’ account) for staunch political reasons. I love having my own account and it has nothing to do with how much I trust my spouse/how well we support each other in all ways. It’s just how we roll.

I guess my ultra-fresh computer anecdote wasn’t the best example of “ask the boss” bullshit…too much (understandable) baggage gets dredged up.  Bit of a whoopsie.

Comment #64: Ranylt  on  10/13  at  08:59 AM

All of the male actors have top billing over the female actors in the poster.  Even when the female actors are loads more famous.

Also, Matt@22- you are never alone in New Orleans.  Check out the Gambit and Offbeat and the Lagniappe on Fridays (actual paper publications!), find your scene, and your new family will follow.

Comment #65: Babs  on  10/13  at  09:26 AM

OK I gotta ask: what they HELL is Applebee’s??

Comment #66: MarinaS  on  10/13  at  09:38 AM

MissPrism, that’s exactly why I’m firmly against any merging of finances.

But then, I have no intention of ever having kids, so the only real common expenses are bills, which are a lot easier to define and provide for 50-50 than kid-related expenses, I suppose.

Comment #67: Scarlet  on  10/13  at  09:53 AM

“I must be some sort of freak, because I enjoy dining alone, especially, as felagund says, with a book”

Me too. I do this as bars as well.  During the work week if I want to unwind and don’t feel like talking to people, I take a book to the local pub.  It has apparently *forced* several men to come over and talk to me, because clearly, my paying absolutely no attention to them must be a sign that I want to talk to them.  LOL. 

I don’t mind doing things alone.  I’d like partner, but that’s not an option currently.  Big deal.  The world is not ending over it.

Comment #68: Gypsy Lee  on  10/13  at  09:54 AM

Of course, if you noticed that your spouse had major problems with money management (if s/he is a compulsive shopper, a gambler, etc.), it would be a different matter.
Also, if there’s a big imbalance between the earnings, obviously, you also need to put more resources in common.

However, if we both make (very) roughly the same amount of money, I really do not see why I should justify my personal expenses to anyone, provided I do not get into debt. Of course, if I wanted to buy a car or make some other sort of very big purchase, that would be different, but that’s a fairly exceptional occurrence…
Which doesn’t mean of course that you cannot communicate on money (on the contrary), but for me communication does not include the right to veto or impose spending limits on someone…

Comment #69: Scarlet  on  10/13  at  10:01 AM

“OK I gotta ask: what they HELL is Applebee’s??”

A chain restaurant that’s a little bit of a downgrade from someplace like Bennigan’s, Ruby Tuesday, or TGI Friday’s.

Comment #70: preying mantis  on  10/13  at  10:15 AM

What I hate about this model of marriages is how much it assumes that, over time, you will stop having friends entirely. And I understand how that happens, I do - I’m an introvert and tend to have one close friend at a time, so when I’m in a relationship a lot of my socialization power gets poured into the relationship and Friends I’m Not Sleeping With get shoved out into an ancillary orbit. This is a tendency that I try to fight for all it’s worth, precisely because I’ve seen so many marriages where there is no one else to have lunch with, and I think expecting someone else to fulfill all your socialization needs is toxic and isolating. I grew up in a family of we-don’t-need-any-friends-but-each-other types (because they had kids and full-time jobs, which leaves very little time to bond with other adults) and it kept getting to the point where I would try to set them up with my friends’ parents so that they had someone else to talk to besides each other and us.

Comment #71: purpleshoes  on  10/13  at  10:16 AM

I’m 100% on board with purpleshoes.
It’s certainly not the only reason why people divorce or get bored with each other, but I really think that this idea that your whole world should revolve around your spouse and you should spend all your free time together and NEVER, EVER do anything without them is very toxic.

Comment #72: Scarlet  on  10/13  at  10:40 AM

but I really don’t get this notion that one has to monitor one’s spouse’s contact with the outside world.

Ditto and seconded.  Marriage is a partnership at will.  I also second Scarlet - you need to be a whole individual and that means you will go off to do things that your spouse has no interest in, time for, etc.  If your marriage can’t survive that (or your bigotry being enshrined in laws that prohibit gay marriage), there is something fundamentally wrong going on - and it ain’t feminism, because guys used to do guy things and women did women things and that didn’t lead to divorce unless there was bank-breaking activity involved.

Comment #73: Ms Kate  on  10/13  at  10:46 AM

I would think that a spouse who has contact with their ex means they have healthy relationships with people. Are we to expect that people you were intimate with in the past have now become strangers, or worse, enemies? I don’t understand this mentality. I’ve friended a couple of my ex-girlfriends and my wife has communicated with her old flames. Neither of us monitor the other; it wouldn’t even occur to me to do so. I would hope that she could still converse with someone who had a meaningful role in her life.

I think it’s sexist to speak of people dropping opposite sex friends. It reduces people to sexual urges and places the genders into these diametrically opposed slots. The assumption is that men and women couldn’t possibly have anything in common other than carnal desires. It just reinforces an artificial separation of men from women and reduces the understanding of our common humanity.

Comment #74: DoctorJay  on  10/13  at  10:55 AM

It really annoys me when people blame the other man/woman when their partner cheats, or even call that person a “homewrecker”.  Cheaters cheat, and it’s their own fault.  If you snoop and make sure your partner has no contact with their ex, they’ll just find someone else to cheat with, if they’re a cheater.  There may be a few cases where a person wouldn’t cheat if they hadn’t met that specific person, but usually they have the cheating attitude first and then cheat with whoever is available.  If your partner is already a cheater, it’s probably better to just end the relationship, rather than monitor all of their contact with others.

Comment #75: bananacat  on  10/13  at  11:18 AM

Yes, I hate the whole “homewrecker” accusation too and I also have to add that it is directed at women 95% of the time, so it’s sexist as well.
If a woman cheats, her lover is rarely mentioned, she’s just labeled a slut. If a man cheats, he’s blamed too, but very often, at least part of the blame is shoved on the “other woman”, who’s called every awful name under the sun.

Comment #76: Scarlet  on  10/13  at  11:40 AM

Catgirl, yes, I’m always surprised when people choose to blame the party who didn’t commit to them for the breaking of that commitment - but then, I gather that it’s mostly a way to transfer blame (often from a man to a woman) and be able to carry on with a relationship that otherwise would have collapsed, so it doesn’t have to be a logical maneuver, it just has to fulfill the purpose of letting people Stay Together for the Children or for the mortgage or for having an Applebee’s buddy. And here we get back into some relationship with reality: a woman with children, especially a single mother with sole or primary custody, will often face a great deal of economic hardship in a business culture that devalues women with children, especially if she took enough time off to have a resume hole. Freshly divorced or broken-up women with small children are generally not going to be getting back in the dating market, or moving to Albany to find their dream job, especially if they’re in a marriage with a strict pre-nup, facing costly litigation battles with a more affluent spouse, or not married and without title to any of the household assets. This happens to people, they make choices not to lose their house or risk losing custody of their kids, and they rationalize it any way they can, which is, I think, where calling the other woman a harlot instead of admitting your spouse is a jerk who apparently doesn’t respect the parameters you need from a relationship comes in.

Wow, that was depressing to type out. But seriously, I think people who feel like they’ve lost control over whether or not to be in a relationship - and sometimes they are making rational choices in their contexts - will get a lot more controlling of their partners.

Comment #77: purpleshoes  on  10/13  at  11:49 AM

Personally, I don’t get the idea of individual non-household cash.  I know it’s said that couples who have personal accounts are somehow better, but… I got into a relationship to be equals.

There’s no equality without the right to private property, I’d say.  Letting someone else have control, even if they don’t exert it, over every dollar you spend is the sort of thing that degrades equality.  In general, I find having a partner who can, at any moment, say, “I’m done and leaving” keeps you on your best behavior.  Joint checking accounts deprive people of this right. 

Of course, I’m cynical because I worked in a bank, and saw, over and over again, how people abused joint checking accounts to control their partners.

Comment #78: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/13  at  11:50 AM

If my spouse kept her money to herself, and only paid half of rent and half of whatever, how would I pay my half when I’m unemployed?

You could ask those of us who keep everything separate how we do it, instead of wondering how those crazies get by.  We….like you said….communicate.  If someone’s short on the rent, they explain themselves and the other person covers it or they work out a plan.  We’re just crazy like that.

Comment #79: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/13  at  11:51 AM

The point of marriage is not to create a quick commonality by tearing down all boundaries; on the contrary, a good marriage is one in which each partner appoints the other to be the guardian of their solitude, and thus they show each other the greatest possible trust. A merging of two people is an impossibility, and where it seems to exist, it is a hemming-in, a mutual consent that robs one party or both parties of their fullest freedom and development. But once the realization is accepted that even between the closest people infinite distances exist, a marvelous living side by side can grow up for them, if they succeed in loving the expanse between them, which gives them the possibility of always seeing each other as a whole and before an immense sky.

—Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters

This was part of a reading at our wedding. More this, less Corinthians, maybe the divorce and rom-com rates would go down.  And “You’re not guarding my solitude very well today!” is much better than “Stop nagging!” when we’re tired and cranky.

Comment #80: vyreque  on  10/13  at  11:52 AM

Not to beleaguer the point, but monitoring someone else’s spending habits, or forcing yourself to do so by blending your finances, seems like yet another strain put on people for no good reason.  If my significant other is going to ruin himself financially, I can’t stop him by making myself more vulnerable.  Working in a bank, I saw very clearly how joint checking accounts worked the same way sharing passwords/giving someone permission to monitor your friends does: it gives the illusion of control, but it doesn’t actually protect you from heartbreak or other damage.  You end up having to put a lot of effort into monitoring your significant other, and the result is nada.  If they’re going to fuck you over, they’re going to fuck you over, so why give yourself extra headaches trying to prevent something that’s not going to happen?

If it works for you, great, but I object strongly to the notion that mutually assured financial destruction is a good way to achieve equality.  On the contrary, a system where each person retains as many rights as possible, including the right to leave, seems a better bet for equality.

It’s one reason I object to marriage laws.  You marry for love, you end up with someone who has the power to destroy your credit history.  What the fuck is that?  It’s a relic from the days when women weren’t allowed to have their own money, much less their own credit.  Those days are over, and good riddance.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/13  at  12:01 PM

vyreque, thank you, that’s wonderful. I am going to go read more Rainer Maria Rilke now.

Comment #82: purpleshoes  on  10/13  at  12:03 PM

Share bank accounts? Wouldn’t dream of it! Share passwords? BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Comment #83: Creepy Doll  on  10/13  at  12:07 PM

Frankly, that WSJ article is weird on a lot of levels. It seems to be saying that it’s terrible for exes to contact each other using Facebook, etc., because of the evil temptation, but then it seems to think it’s equally horrible to find out one of your old exes is now gay. Why? Wouldn’t that remove the whole temptation problem? So I guess the real problem is that if you acknowledge ever having had any life whatsoever outside of your monogamous marriage, it’s bad, somehow, for some reason. Huh?

This strikes me as lazy reporter and editor syndrome. “Hey, I hear there’s this newfangled thing called Facebook. Gimme an article about it.” And the reporter goes out and interviews all her friends and neighbors, cobbles the thing together into a half-assed article, and turns it in. Nobody cares what it says, because everyone will read it just because it mentions sex, however obliquely. This seems to be what goes on with the majority of lifestyle pieces, actually.

Comment #84: sophronia  on  10/13  at  12:11 PM

Personally, I don’t get the idea of individual non-household cash.  I know it’s said that couples who have personal accounts are somehow better, but… I got into a relationship to be equals.  How is it equal if we don’t talk about expensive (I think of computers as expensive, maybe that father in law did as well) purchases and budgets.

A major part of being “equals” involves each partner acknowledging the other’s individual agency. In terms of money, that means that each partner should have some discretionary cash to spend as he likes. “Equals” does not necessarily mean that the partners have to drive the same category of car, or own the same type of personal computer.

As to your other questions, that involves more informal relationship concepts like “sharing” and “mutual support” and “household budgeting” and “common sense.” All of that, as you say, involves communication, but certainly doesn’t preclude the idea of individual accounts or cash and spending that money as one likes without having to run to someone for permission.

I find it a big warning flag when one partner insists that there be no individual cash—it’s generally a control mechanism similar to that which leads to the stupid demand for a partner’s e-mail and other personal online account passwords (although these days it’s smart to make provision in a will for an executor to be given posthumous access to those things). In short, it smacks of the dowry.

This is one of the reasons I believe that choosing or drafting and signing some sort of pre-nup, even a basic and minimal one, should be a requirement for getting a marriage license for all couples, same-sex or hetero: it makes people consider the marriage contract a serious one, that has more to do with “we’re in lurrrve” or “it’s just what people do” or (to use the idiotic move line) “I’m scared of eating alone at Applebees when I’m old.”

I can’t imagine going to a restaurant with someone who hates you though.

Man, I’ve seen some truly miserable couples who spent the whole meal sniping at each-other—the mutual hatred radiated from their tables. I’ve especially seen this in Florida where some elderly couples are obviously celebrating the Golden Anniversary of mutual loathing. Fortunately, as an observer with a dark sense of humour this sort of thing only enhances my dining/party experience.

For me, there’s no problem eating alone in certain restaurants where I like the food and atmosphere and service enough that I’m a regular and therefore comfortable—I have about 5 places where I do this in my city (none of them chain restaurants, I’ll do take-out). Same with trying new restaurants when I’m travelling alone. Trying new places locally is usually something I prefer to do with other people, but that’s certainly not enough to frighten me into a marriage, good or bad.

Comment #85: Gracchus.  on  10/13  at  12:14 PM

<quote>Man, I’ve seen some truly miserable couples who spent the whole meal sniping at each-other—the mutual hatred radiated from their tables.</quote>

Tell me about it. A couple of years ago, my boyfriend and I were having dinner at a restaurant on Valentine’s day. There was another couple sitting at the next table and I swear they never exchanged ONE word during the whole meal. Not sure they even looked at each other.

Comment #86: Scarlet  on  10/13  at  12:22 PM

I can’t imagine going into Applebee’s unless I was alone. Who can carry on a conversation in that din?!? A solo person can, however, tune out everything else but a book.

1.  I often need to get up and go to the bathroom, and I don’t want to leave my stuff at the table, but I don’t want to take it with me and make them think I ran off without paying.

Rest assured, BonAppetit, that you are not the first solo diner whatever restaurant has encountered. They are not judging for taking your stuff to the restroom. If it’s really that high-turnover a place, leave your reading material open on the table. They’ll pick the snap, honest.

Comment #87: benvolio  on  10/13  at  12:27 PM

I’m of the opinion that comfort in eating out or seeing a movie alone is a step toward making a person a whole and interesting person.  It was one of the first steps I took to developing a personality that was more than, “I NEED A WOMAN TO FIX ME!”

Once I got comfortable with myself I could look at the reasons why some of my relationships didn’t work.  It wasn’t them (entirely) it was me.  Those things led me to actually *listening* to my partners.  (Shocking, I know!)

And finally it led me to understand that relationships aren’t the end-all-be-all.  It’s a process and like Sisyphus, it’s a process that’s enjoyable in and of itself.

Comment #88: cynickal  on  10/13  at  12:40 PM

I have quite a nice time eating a delicious brunch out alone with a book.  I usually eat with a book at home (sometimes even if my fiancé is eating with me—we’ll both sit there with noses in our respective books; it’s kind of cute).

Scarlet, not talking much doesn’t necessarily mean they hate each other.  Maybe they’re both introverts who just ran out of things to talk about, and like enjoying food together.  This has happened in my relationship sometimes.  It really bothers me that other people think we hate each other because we’re eating in mostly silence (you’re far from the first person to say that; I don’t mean to pick on you).  Sometimes we just don’t want to talk right then; we want to eat, and we just like being in each other’s company while we do it.

Of course we’ll then usually strike up a conversation about how good the food is, so maybe that doesn’t count.

I mean, if they’re just glaring at each other or, as you said, refusing to look at each other, maybe something else is going on.

But on the bigger topic:  I think like most people, I have occasionally wondered what would happen if we broke up.  It always comes back to this:  I know I have my career, my family, my friends, all of my interests and talents.  Although I would be very sad to lose him, I would still be a whole person who had a lot to offer the world.  I think knowing this makes the relationship better.  It’s one reason why I proposed.  If you marry, marry because you don’t have to, and you want to.

Comment #89: snowmentality  on  10/13  at  01:20 PM

Interesting how “homewrecker” starts with “home”, yet so many fail to grasp that it has been wrecked from within and not from without.

If you married somebody impulsive and duplicitous, why is the the fault of the world if that person can’t control themselves?  Why is it your “job” to control them and police temptations?

Is is so hard to just ask that they either grow up or get out?

Comment #90: Ms Kate  on  10/13  at  03:03 PM

This movie looked awful when I saw the commercials for it.  It looked even worse when I saw a clip on some interview show.  Generally, I find anything involving Favereau and Vaughn to be a dismal prospect.  Favereau is a master at the dimwitted and not funny.

Mrs DBK and I enjoy one another’s company.  We don’t either of us mind eating alone upon occasion.  We usually cook, but when we do eat out, we never go to Applebee’s.  I can see how eating at Applebee’s is a depressing prospect, but I don’t get why it would be more unpleasant to eat there alone.

Comment #91: DBK  on  10/13  at  03:05 PM

I agree with not stigmatizing women who sleep with married men as homewreckers - yeah the home was definitely already wrecked before she got involved.  But I actively dislike women who fuck married men anyway.  Frankly, once you are out of your 20’s, if you don’t know better, than we really have nothing in common.  There is no man so special that he’s worth bringing further pain into some woman’s life for.  he’s just someone else’s problem today, tomorrow, he’ll be your problem. 

I have a close friendship that has become very rocky over the past year for precisely this reason.  Since she is a close friend I probably could have overlooked it, but one night we were out for dinner and she felt compelled to inform us that her married bf was throwing a 50th bday party for his wife, and his friends were laughingly calling it her “going away party”.  See, the joke was that his wife didn’t know, but all his friends did, and it was just sooo fucking funny that she could help bursting out into laughter when she told it.

Of course, what she fails to see is that any man so scummy that he can have his friends laughing at the mother of his children, will evenutally make a fool out of her too.  And even if he never does?  Sorry, but that is just beyond the pale to me.

Comment #92: JennyLI  on  10/13  at  03:10 PM

You could ask those of us who keep everything separate how we do it, instead of wondering how those crazies get by.  We….like you said….communicate.  If someone’s short on the rent, they explain themselves and the other person covers it or they work out a plan.  We’re just crazy like that.

We kept things separate for quite some time after we moved in together and married ... and then he had to have extreme surgery and was out of work for a while and there were survivorship issues ... then I lost my job ... and then we bought property together and had kids and all of that.  For us, it is much less headache to keep a joint account given how many expenses are, well, joint and would require too many time consuming steps to sort out otherwise.  Now that things are pretty equal with regard to income, we could split it up, but we don’t see any reason to do so at the current time.  It just works for us.

Not that I don’t know couples who keep them split up, or keep a separate household account which they pay into monthly or weekly for joint expenses and solo accounts for the rest.  It’s all in what works for you.

Comment #93: Ms Kate  on  10/13  at  03:10 PM

Of course, what she fails to see is that any man so scummy that he can have his friends laughing at the mother of his children, will evenutally make a fool out of her too.

Yep.

Comment #94: Ms Kate  on  10/13  at  03:12 PM

Crissa (55):

If my spouse kept her money to herself, and only paid half of rent and half of whatever, how would I pay my half when I’m unemployed?

But this is a relationship, not a business. Surely people who love each other can arrange for everyone to put in what they can and take what they need without having to have a formal system. I mean, I’m not saying your way is wrong, but I don’t think it’s the only way.

Personally I like Hairhead’s system when both partners have incomes, but again, if that doesn’t work for someone I wouldn’t insist.

Scarlet (72):

It’s certainly not the only reason why people divorce or get bored with each other, but I really think that this idea that your whole world should revolve around your spouse and you should spend all your free time together and NEVER, EVER do anything without them is very toxic.

Yeah, this. It’s one thing if it works out that way, as seems to be the case with purpleshoes (and me), but you should never feel you’re not allowed to socalize with anyone but your spouse or LTR partner.

Doc (74):

I would think that a spouse who has contact with their ex means they have healthy relationships with people.

Absolutely. I’m glad my partner is still friendly with her ex-husband, largely because there’s a kid involved and they can’t cut each other out of their lives entirely, but also because I wouldn’t want to have to deal with that negative energy or the crater in her life from avoiding negative energy if they didn’t get on.

Comment #95: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/13  at  03:13 PM

I still talk to my ex, and both of our husbands are happy we’re still friends after ~30 years.

There are situations where miserable is better than alone. When alone would mean being the sole support of two children on a nurse’s pay tends to be one of them. I never quite forgave my mother for that calculus, but I do understand it now.

20 years of anything isn’t all sunshine and roses, but the husband and I do pretty well. We like our time together, whether having a fast breakfast or him riding along on the truck with me on Saturdays. We talk everything from politics to story planning.

He reads my Livejournal, mainly to keep up with me. I subscribe to his Vlog. Share passwords? I don’t THINK so. He doesn’t want to hang out with a bunch of crazy writer types (male and female).

Comment #96: Angelia Sparrow  on  10/13  at  03:21 PM

OK I gotta ask: what they HELL is Applebee’s??

If you’ve seen Office Space, “Chochki’s” (where Jennifer Aniston’s character works) is basically Applebee’s.  Right down to the ridiculous “flair.”

See also Grandy’s, Black-Eyed Pea, Ruby Tuesday, and others of that ilk; there are a vast array of such strip-mall parking-lot “family restaurants,” usually found in suburbia.

Comment #97: liberalrob  on  10/13  at  03:42 PM

we get into romantic relationships because they make us feel happier, and because we value having that kind of intimacy.

Actually, I kind of doubt that the majority of relationships truly have something this simple and healthy at their bases. But then I’m a big old grump with experience along the whole damn dysfunction spectrum.

Comment #98: Well, what?  on  10/13  at  03:56 PM

But I actively dislike women who fuck married men anyway.

And what about men who sleep with married women?  I even specifically said other man/woman, but this has still turned into a women as homewreckers discussion.  Also, have you ever considered that if someone is willing to cheat on a spouse that they claim to love, they might also be willing to lie to others?  I would never willingly sleep with a married man (unless he was part of a mutually open relationship), but one time I found out a guy I was hooking up with was actually married.  He just plain lied to me about it.  I ended it immediately, but what else could I have done besides snoop and spy on him?  What about men who sleep with their employees?  Even if it’s not outright coercion, what if the woman feels like she has to do it to keep her job?

There is no man so special that he’s worth bringing further pain into some woman’s life for.

The other woman is not bringing the pain into that woman’s life; the husband is bringing the pain into his wife’s life by cheating on her.  If that other woman wasn’t around, the cheater would find some other woman to cheat with.  Is that really so hard to understand?

Of course, what she fails to see is that any man so scummy that he can have his friends laughing at the mother of his children, will evenutally make a fool out of her too.

Yeah, I agree that it’s naive to think that a cheater wouldn’t cheat on you too, but when every movie and tv show since childhood tells you otherwise, is it really surprising that people will believe it?  If I had a friend like that, I would try my best to convince him or her that they deserve a better partner, but I wouldn’t get mad at them about it.

The fact is, cheaters cheat and if the other person isn’t willing, they will always find some other person.  If absolutely nobody is willing, then they will either lie or hire hookers just for the sake of cheating.  It’s rarely the case that someone is lured into cheating who wouldn’t have cheated with someone else.

Comment #99: bananacat  on  10/13  at  04:12 PM

But not Stalin, eh?

If only Patton had convinced FDR and Churchill to keep rolling east in 1945, he’d have won the prestigious Nobel Freedom Prize, too.

Things must be lovely in ericJG’s alternate universe, where things like war-weariness, logistics, realpolitik, and treaties make no difference to national leaders. If you want to highlight one of the few significant differences between Hitler and Stalin, it’s that these things ultimately did make a difference to the latter and not to the former.

Comment #100: Gracchus.  on  10/13  at  04:27 PM

Argh, wrong thread!

Comment #101: Gracchus.  on  10/13  at  04:27 PM

“I don’t want to eat at Applebee’s alone!”

Are you scared of the freaking dark as well?

This is why I don’t watch rom-coms. Unless its the rare occasion I’ve been at a friend’s house and I’ve been strongarmed into watching one, I avoid them like the plague. I always find the characters are, to a fault, unbearably childish. The purported “solution” to their immaturity - coupling up - always has the opposite fucking effect and makes their childishness worse. If the real-life scenarios of rape culture and its assorted douchebaggery weren’t already enough to put a woman off dating and relationships… what a negative image.

Comment #102: Princess Rot  on  10/13  at  07:11 PM

Crissa, et al.

My wife has a particular cultural reason to feel the way she does about money. She is the daughter of Chinese peasant immigrants, to whom girl-children are quite literally, worth NOTHING. Since she realized that, and left her abusive home, she has always been particularly sensitive to any suggestion, socially or professionally, that she is worth less than anyone else, or has less agency in any area of her life than any other person (particularly a man).  Abortion and bank and account are the same to her: in the final accounting, it’s HER life, and no-one else’s.

Comment #103: Hairhead  on  10/13  at  07:42 PM

Due to past experience, I actually won’t date someone who isn’t on speaking terms with at least one ex (barring extenuating circumstances like never having dated before, etc) - in general, if you’ve dated at least two people, and none of them will talk to you, it’s a HUGE red flag for how that relationship will probably go. And while I’m sure there are exceptions to that rule, it’s sufficiently accurate for me not to risk deviating from it - I really don’t understand people who would only want to date folks who are on bad/non-existent terms with their exes.

Comment #104: jalmondale  on  10/13  at  09:45 PM

The movie: ugggghh. I thought it looked crappy with the previews, good to know I’m not missing anything.

As to managing finances. I really, really, really wish I’d never gotten a joint account. At the time I thought it would be easier to manage things as a team, etc., but that definitely did not materialize and instead it was kind of like joint access without joint accountability, resulting in either “can I have this? can I have this?” or “wait, since when is this much in fast food acceptable?” Ugh. no, relationship is not healthy, I can recognize that the finances are just one aspect of unhealthiness, but individually, I do not think I will ever get a joint account again after this.
And both this partner and my previous partner had huge issues with the idea of not getting joint accounts! Like it was an affront to them and all relationships not to share an account, no matter how individual finances fall.

Comment #105: Tenya  on  10/13  at  10:01 PM

Did anyone else find it odd that, as the Jezebel article pointed out, the WSJ article was about relationships that ended three months ago…or thirty-five years ago!

I mean, some of the people haven’t had time for the wounds to heal, while others have been picking at the scabs for way too long.

Comment #106: NY Expat  on  10/13  at  11:49 PM

Don’t worry, defensive married people!  I promise this isn’t a marriage-bashing post.

Oh, that’s a relief. With all the Proposition 8 stuff going on in California, we hear plenty of marriage-bashing from the ‘phobes.

So here’s what I don’t get (admittedly I haven’t seen the movie): why doesn’t the disgruntled wife run off with Hot Dance Partner Guy? “I don’t want to be alone.” “Me either! Luckily, I have this sexy new man in my life so I won’t be.” I mean, they’re getting divorced anyway, right?

Comment #107: mythago  on  10/14  at  01:29 AM

One note about joint bank accounts - so I don’t know if this is technically allowed/legal, but it is entirely possible for one partner to empty and close the joint bank account without any notification being given to the other holder of the account. I don’t know if that’s common knowledge and I just learned the hard way, or what, but I figure it’s something to keep in mind if a couple is considering the ‘one bank account’ policy. Trust is good and all, but exposing yourself to a major financial disaster if a breakup goes badly or your trust happened to be misplaced seems like something to seriously think about before doing.

Comment #108: jalmondale  on  10/14  at  02:52 AM

jalmondale, you need not look any further than this week’s newstands and tabloid displays to know that.  Jon just emptied Jon and Kate plus eight’s bank account.

I’m glad that, while my husband just emptied ours, it means that the car is paid off.

Comment #109: Ms Kate  on  10/14  at  09:47 AM

I just don’t want to be in the position of asking my partner to give me money for her half of the rent.

Comment #110: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/14  at  10:29 AM

Personally, I don’t get the idea of individual non-household cash.  I know it’s said that couples who have personal accounts are somehow better, but… I got into a relationship to be equals.  How is it equal if we don’t talk about expensive (I think of computers as expensive, maybe that father in law did as well) purchases and budgets.

So long as all the household/essential bills are paid off and the couple’s financial state is sound, couples should communicate about their personal purchases as with all things….but the spouse should not have veto power/power to grant permission for them.  That’s a recipe for a toxic adult/child dynamic….not a healthy partnership of equals. 

Of course, this does not apply if one of the spouses is an actual spendthrift…..though in nearly all such cases IME, the household/essential bills ended up being neglected.

Comment #111: exholt  on  10/14  at  11:37 AM

That’s a recipe for a toxic adult/child dynamic….not a healthy partnership of equals.

This.
Also, this kind of situation leads to endless arguments about which expenses are considered frivolous/excessive, etc. etc.
I’ve seen too many people be at each other’s throat because she hated that he spent money on video games and he thought she was buying too many clothes (or vice-versa), etc.
If each partner is responsible for their own money, it’s not a problem

Comment #112: Scarlet  on  10/14  at  12:41 PM

Exholt, I think there’s also a poisonous historical dynamic at play where traditionally only one spouse has any understanding of the household finances, and for a lot of people that has always been the woman, who is tasked with feeding and clothing the children, securing, improving, and maintaining the housing, and in general keeping body and soul together for everyone. I think this happens a lot in the kind of families where repetitive, has-to-be-done-daily stuff tends to fall to the woman. I know of couples - and we’re talking boomers - where the male partner has literally no idea of what the budget is like and can’t commit to spending money without talking to the person who does the accounts. I get the impression this results in occasional fit-throwing.

People with completely separate accounts: are you all child-free, or if you’re not, how do you make provision for feeding and housing people who can’t, or aren’t legally allowed to, earn an income?

Comment #113: purpleshoes  on  10/14  at  03:58 PM

I’ve seen too many people be at each other’s throat because she hated that he spent money on video games and he thought she was buying too many clothes (or vice-versa), etc.
If each partner is responsible for their own money, it’s not a problem

Same here. 

The ones that happen when household bills/essentials such as rent and utilities were left unpaid I can understand.  The ones where such were already taken care of and there are some healthy savings I didn’t get and were probably a proxy for conflicting values regarding the use/spending of one’s money.  If it is the latter situation, I cannot understand how this can be an issue beyond hating what the spouse in question spends his/her money on and/or desiring an unhealthy degree of control over the other spouse’s personal spending habits. 

Exholt, I think there’s also a poisonous historical dynamic at play where traditionally only one spouse has any understanding of the household finances, and for a lot of people that has always been the woman, who is tasked with feeding and clothing the children, securing, improving, and maintaining the housing, and in general keeping body and soul together for everyone.

From what I’ve learned about the “traditional” Chinese family, it is often the husband/most senior head of the extended family who has ultimate responsibility in managing household finances.  The women and more junior members(younger siblings of family head or younger generations) of the family only had as much say in the matter as that husband or most senior head of the extended family would allow them….which often is little to none. 

A reason why the concept of women managing finances was so alien to most older Chinese men, especially the more conservative traditional set from my parents’ generation and older.  Found this out when they gave me weird stares after mentioning that mom and her older sisters tended to manage and control the finances of the family.

Comment #114: exholt  on  10/14  at  05:34 PM

FWIW, in Filipino households, it is always the woman who handles the finances, and doles out money for the ‘man of the house’ to spend on what he wants after everything is taken care of.

The realtor who helped us buy our current house told me that in his experience, it was the ‘woman of the house’ in said Filipino households whose decision was paramount as to whether the house they were shown would be the one that the family would purchase.  Sometimes they would turn down a house based on things such as having a view of the local cemetery. 

In my own case, Ilocano Avenger, my noble bride, was willing to accept that our house has a view of some of the trees in the local graveyard, but if it had a view of the actual ground and headstones that would’ve been a deal breaker right there.

Ms. Kate, I heard Jon say in an interview that all he did was take out his salary.  If true, this demonstrates his stupidity.

It would seem that he was unclear on the concept that in CA, we have community property, not separate property as in many other states.

In doing so, he was taking out twice as much as he was entitled, as all earnings, interest, etc.,  are 50-50 property of both spouses(inheritances are excepted if the funds aren’t co-mingled), and I imagine this will hurt him if and when they go to divorce court.  If he had taken 1/2 of his salary, he’d be on defensible grounds legally, but it would appear that he isn’t getting good advice from whoever is his legal counsel right now, if any.

Comment #115: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/14  at  06:20 PM
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