Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Q of the day - least favorite household chore Previous entry: Latest eruption from Bill ‘Your son was a homo’ James: ‘de-infest areas where gays congregate’

Seriously, maybe we really should drop it

Here are a list of things women mainly and sometimes solely use that they pay more than a 5% tax on when pay buy them, at least in states with sales taxes:

Tampons and pads
Make-up
Fancy little moisturizers
Hosiery
Bras and other fancy lingerie

I’m sure you can think of more.  Some items on that list are necessities—-tampons for sure, bras and hosiery being so ubiquitous that they might as well be.  The others are easily addressed with the same arguments that some feminists are making against a tax on plastic surgery.  And yet, we tax those things every day and no one raises a peep, largely because the argument that women as a class shouldn’t face taxes was only brought up when a group of largely middle class white women were facing a 5% tax that is going to pay for health care reform, which will give a lot of help to Americans from all walks of life, but especially to the ranks of uninsured, who are more likely to be poorer and people of color.  This, as I’ve said before, bothers me tremendously, especially since tampons aren’t cheap and, unlike plastic surgery, the argument for why you have to have them to go to work is clear-cut and indisputable.

I also pointed out that I get the arguments.  I think, especially reading Rose at Feministing, part of the anger about a tax on plastic surgery is the implication that women who get plastic surgery are stupid and awful and need to be punished.  As Rose put it, it’s “stigmatiz[ing] women’s choices”.  Now, I don’t have a problem with stigmatizing choices per se, and I object to the idea that women as a class should have the privilege not to be judged at all.  Just because women have been judged harshly for things that were not bad things to do (have an abortion) or were survival strategies (be “frivolous” and man-pleasing) doesn’t mean every judgment of every choice comes from a bad place.  Women do downright fucked up things, due to being human.

Of course, getting plastic surgery is generally not one of them.  The feminist argument here is a more interesting one.  Basically, it’s about the catch-22 women are put in.  We’re punished if we don’t conform to certain beauty ideals, but if we’re caught “showing our work”, we are stigmatized for being vain.  The only non-stigmatized option is to simply cease existing.  Feminists can object to the stigma on women both coming and going, right?  So I appreciate where that’s coming from, though I also agree with Alexandra Suich that the emphasis on making it cheap to conform has a great power to eclipse demands for a genuinely better society, nor should feminists be lending ourselves to increasing the power and esteem of the overtly misogynist plastic surgery industry.

Feminism is about fighting a discriminatory society, not about accepting that discrimination and making it more cost-effective for women to capitulate to it.

There’s a contradiction there, and woe unto us who think we can elide it.  Plus, the whole question of cost effectiveness is a loaded one—-a lot of women take the beauty myth hit when they age, but will never be able to afford plastic surgery, tax or no.  They are being ignored in this.  They are also the people most likely to be uninsured, and in desperate need of this health care reform. You know, so they can live at all, not just live wrinkle-free. And we need ways to pay it.  A plastic surgery tax is an excellent way to do this, both because it redistributes a very small amount of money (per person) from someone who has economic privilege to someone who doesn’t, and because it hits plastic surgeons, people who took their medical training and put it to use enforcing impossible beauty standards instead of doing things like saving lives because it pays better.  I’m not saying we should punish them, but why is it such a bad thing to make them pull their weight?  Taxes aren’t punishment.  That’s a right wing frame.  Taxes are about making sure that people pull their weight, and those who have more should be grateful that they have an opportunity to pull their weight. 


The more I think about it, the more empty some of the arguments against this tax seem. “But I need it to get by in this society!”  No one is denying you your right to feel that way, and I certainly don’t.  But I’m going to go on record saying the women who are more likely to die from breast cancer or cervical cancer because they aren’t insured need that insurance more, and pulling your weight isn’t going to kill you.  “But women get most plastic surgery!”  Okay, well, women do most housework, and the solution hasn’t been to capitulate and just stop doing housework and live in filth.  We try to change the system.  There’s a demoralizing fatalism about addressing the beauty myth through finding ways to capitulate with ease, almost as if feminists don’t really believe that radical change is possible.  But second wave radical feminists tackled the beauty myth head-on, and were able to achieve a number of successes, which is part of the reason why I bet none of you reading this today will have to go out in the world wearing an elaborate and painful underwear system built around a corset, steel bra, and hose, nor will any of you spend an hour on your hair or wear false eyelashes.  Unless you’re going to a costume ball or something.

I don’t think that most feminists who are so adamantly opposed to this plastic surgery tax would really disagree with these points.  That’s why the passion about it is so odd to me. But reading this article at Salon from a self-identified feminist who got botox, I think I had more of an insight.  She clearly feels guilty about it—-she’s not trying to hide that at all, even if she concludes that it was the right choice for her.  She shouldn’t feel guilty, of course.  Her reasons are understandable.  But I can see why there’s a lurking unease with the whole thing, and I don’t think it’s because you’re cheating or because you’re betraying feminism or anything like that.  Honestly, it’s because engaging with the overtly misogynist plastic surgery industry would leave a bad taste in anyone’s mouth.  They are, after all, shooting your face up with one of the most toxic substances on the planet. Introducing strawberries and champagne to the equation doesn’t really help matters, I’d think—-the writer likens her appearance after the injections to that of a domestic violence victim.  You don’t reach for that metaphor for no reason.  Most women just get a little work done at the plastic surgeon, but we’ve all seen what happens when they get their hooks into someone insecure enough to think they need their whole body dramatically remade.  They stop looking human, but instead look all puffed up and plastic and oddly shaped.  At this point, the sadism towards women’s bodies is unmistakable.  An hour watching a reality TV show is enough to convince anyone that at least the plastic surgeons that did those women’s work really hate women.  That plastic surgeons inflate women’s breasts like basketballs and have set out to convince women that their labia are ugly seals the deal.

Caught in that contradiction—-between the belief that you deserve to have a little work (and honestly, I really don’t think it’s that big a deal) and dealing with an industry that has an openly sadistic view of women—-of course people get a little defensive.  And lash out at the government that wants to tax it, under the assumption that this is shaming and punishment.  But it really isn’t.  The primary reason we tax people is to pay for things that the government needs to do.  We try to tax some goods over others so as not to hit the most impoverished the hardest.  A plastic surgery tax fits right into that.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:28 PM • (56) Comments

A sound, coherent argument here, Amanda. But while we’re on the subject of health care and taxes, it galls me to no end that we have to talk about nickel-and-diming enough revenue for health care when a broad-based increase in the genral income tax is off the table. And whose interest does that serve but our economic overlords? Funny how any thought of taxing the top 20% at rates that existed under the Clinton or Reagan Presidencies is met with screams of socialism.

I raise this argument, because medicine is based on an ethic of care, which is not about rights or privileges but about obligations to one another. And since the top 20% gobbles up half the national income, leaving the rest of us to fight over he scraps, it just stands to reason that those with the wherewithal ought to shoulder the greatest responsiblity.

Comment #1: revrick  on  12/19  at  12:46 PM

A tax on the less-needed to pay for the more-needed?  Why don’t those complainers just call it socialism and make some references to Nazis and be done with it?

Comment #2: 3letterjon  on  12/19  at  12:50 PM

Of course, revrick, but if people are only inspired to pick that up to protect their botox from being 5% more expensive, the argument doesn’t have much rhetorical force.  That sort of taxation scheme is something we need to repeat at the beginning, in the middle, to the end, all the time, loudly and forcefully.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/19  at  01:19 PM

It would be interesting to know who actually pays for plastic surgery.  Does anyone have any stats?  Women overwhelmingly are the patients, but they are also overwhelmingly the owners of furs and jewelry, but I’d hazard a guess that those luxuries are more often financed by men rather than the women themselves.  Sometimes insurance pays, sometimes men pay, and sometimes women pay. 

In the cases where women pay themselves, I bet the income scale is quite a bit lower than when the procedures are paid for by men.  Young women paying for their own breast enhancements, single women in their 30s and 40s paying to satisfy the beauty myth and improve their chances of finding a mate, etc.  I think the “rich people paying luxury taxes is ok” argument might not hold water with a deeper stat dive.  I bet when women foot the bill, it’s not the rich who will be getting hit with this tax.

Comment #4: Mintim  on  12/19  at  01:26 PM

I’m fucking flabbergasted that performing invasive surgery on patients with no medial complaints whatsoever is even legal.

Comment #5: Alex, FCD  on  12/19  at  01:41 PM

I’m fucking flabbergasted that performing invasive surgery on patients with no medial complaints whatsoever is even legal.

I’m sure you’re also shocked and appalled that it’s legal to listen to music you dislike.

Comment #6: schism  on  12/19  at  02:04 PM

“I’m not saying we should punish them, but why is it such a bad thing to make them pull their weight?  Taxes aren’t punishment.  That’s a right wing frame.  Taxes are about making sure that people pull their weight, and those who have more should be grateful that they have an opportunity to pull their weight.”

I agree wholeheartedly with every word of this. 

In today’s American political environment that makes us one step away from being the Khmer Rouge, and I guess that makes Dwight Eisenhower the American Pol Pot…

Comment #7: MikeEss  on  12/19  at  02:15 PM

It seems to me that it all boils down to the stigma.  Yes, it is truly fucked up for our culture to put such high demands on beauty and then insult you when you try to conform to them.  Here in south Florida, there is not much of a stigma because we are all doing something.  As a 54 year old gay man, I have had my front teeth capped, I get face filler, I’ve had my upper and lower eyes done, I get my hair professionally colored, and I have a doctor just to prescribe me anabolic steroids.  I have great doctors, so I look damn good.  They are sweet and kind, and don’t push procedures.  The story of the woman who wrote the article does not ring true to me.  I can’t picture sadistic doctors.  I tried botox but didn’t care for it.  They use tiny little needles, so you don’t bruise.  You look, for a short time, like you got stung by a couple of bees.  The domestic violence comparison is complete bullshit.  I really think she was feeling the weight of the stigma.  We pay tax on everything else.  A 5% tax on plastic surgery will not stop anyone from getting work done.  Yes, please pass a public option.  In the meantime, another little tax is not a burden.

Comment #8: jackspratt  on  12/19  at  02:19 PM

I’m sure you’re also shocked and appalled that it’s legal to listen to music you dislike.

This might be an analogous complaint if administering music I dislike sometimes killed the damn patient.

Comment #9: Alex, FCD  on  12/19  at  02:28 PM

Though not the main thrust of your argument, it should be noted that what items are subject to the sales tax varies widely.  In Pennsylvania, clothing and medicines are not taxed, so bras wouldn’t be, and I assume that tamnpons aren’t, though I haven’t pored over the grocery store receipts.  In some states, everything, including food, is subject to the sales tax.

When you start to talk about taxing as redistributive—as in your last paragraph—you start to get into all sorts of problems.  OK, a plastic surgery tax hits a voluntary activity, but surely someone will soon mention a reconstructive mammoplasty following a mastectomy; technically that’s still an elective procedure, because you can live without a breast, but there will be a whole lot of people who would see that distinction as cruel.

Taxes are about making sure that people pull their weight, and those who have more should be grateful that they have an opportunity to pull their weight.

A single percentage rate tax, on everything, does that, without trying to fine-tune redistribution; people with more will spend more, so they’ll pay more in taxes.

Comment #10: Dana  on  12/19  at  02:29 PM

Amanda wrote:

and because it hits plastic surgeons, people who took their medical training and put it to use enforcing impossible beauty standards instead of doing things like saving lives because it pays better.

Unless you are saying that the additional tax will reduce their income at the margins, because they will have fewer patients, I don’t see how you concluded this.  The additional tax will be borne by the patient, not the physician.

Comment #11: Dana  on  12/19  at  02:31 PM

A single percentage rate tax, on everything, does that, without trying to fine-tune redistribution; people with more will spend more, so they’ll pay more in taxes.

The only people dumber than libertarians are ravers.

Comment #12: felagund  on  12/19  at  02:38 PM

The only people dumber than libertarians are ravers.
Comment #12: felagund on 12/19 at 12:38 PM

If you put that on a T-shirt I would buy it.

Comment #13: jessilikewhoa  on  12/19  at  02:44 PM

“A single percentage rate tax, on everything, does that, without trying to fine-tune redistribution; people with more will spend more, so they’ll pay more in taxes.”

...I take it you’re never learned much about economics, except whatever you’ve heard from Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or Ron Paul.

Please look into it — you’ll quickly discover that whatever the rich few pay in sales tax (which they often figure out how to avoid in any case) doesn’t come close to the confiscation done to the rest of us proles, if the sales tax rate is high enough to be revenue neutral…

Comment #14: MikeEss  on  12/19  at  02:44 PM

I’ll accept Part One of the flat taxers proposals, if they’ll accept my Part Two where the revenues generated help out the poor as much as is needed.

Comment #15: 3letterjon  on  12/19  at  03:12 PM

surely someone will soon mention a reconstructive mammoplasty following a mastectomy; technically that’s still an elective procedure, because you can live without a breast, but there will be a whole lot of people who would see that distinction as cruel.

And surely you would assume that someone would have paid attention to the previous thread on this topic where just such an issue was raised, or that someone would actually understand that we do differentiate between reconstructive and elective plastic surgery, but the foibles and failings of humanity when they mouth off are almost to be expected.

Comment #16: Tyro  on  12/19  at  03:19 PM

The plastic surgeons say Mintim is right—many classes of women in the U.S., not just the rich, buy plastic surgery.  And it’s not a white thing in particular either: most patients are white, but not out of proportion to the white-majority U.S. population.

I’m okay with this tax; I figure most surgeons will absorb it by discounting their fees, rather than pass it to their patients, which would be a win for the government.  But we ought to have less plastic surgery.  It raises the bar in a sick way—wrinkles and lines become deviant and shocking rather than normal. 

So if I were in charge, I’d prohibit financing plastic surgery and other invasive cosmetic procedures with credit cards.  It’s bad enough that real medical expenses drive people into bankruptcy: I hate the thought of 22% interest and penalties to pay off last year’s Botox.

Comment #17: Unree  on  12/19  at  03:20 PM

I think the “rich people paying luxury taxes is ok” argument might not hold water with a deeper stat dive.

Luckily, I didn’t make that argument.  I think the middle class should also pay taxes, albeit fewer ones.  If you read the link to my prior post about this, the “stat dive” is in there.  Unfortunately, it’s mostly middle class, mostly white.  People who, if they can afford plastic surgery, can afford to pay 5% more to make sure other people don’t die of cancer.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/19  at  03:25 PM

According to Ezra Klein, the plastic surgery tax is gone:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/12/the_congressional_budget_offic_5.html

“The 5 percent excise tax on cosmetic surgery was eliminated, and a 10 percent excise tax on indoor tanning services was added.”

Hardly more equal effect, or?

Comment #19: AndersH  on  12/19  at  03:25 PM

Remember: the government doesn’t tax you for your health.  People complaining about this seem indifferent to the strong need for this money to pay for health care.  I’m not indifferent.  I’m far more interested in lowering the mortality rate for breast cancer than keeping botox 5% cheaper.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/19  at  03:26 PM

When you start to talk about taxing as redistributive—as in your last paragraph—you start to get into all sorts of problems.

With deeply immature, selfish people, yes.  But just because you read my blog doesn’t mean I have to coddle your delusions.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/19  at  03:29 PM

Unless you are saying that the additional tax will reduce their income at the margins, because they will have fewer patients, I don’t see how you concluded this.

I’m not.  I’m saying since they use their training for strictly selfish, often sadistic ends, then I’m not going to lose sleep at night having them pay more in taxes as a payment for their lush lifestyles.  They can afford to give back; a lot of doctors dedicate their lives to service.

Conservatives, being mental children, think everything is about punishment and deterrence.  It’s not.  The grown-ups get this.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/19  at  03:31 PM

A single percentage rate tax, on everything, does that, without trying to fine-tune redistribution; people with more will spend more, so they’ll pay more in taxes.

Not to engage with any of the rest of this, but one of the big nontrivial conclusions of baseline micro is that this really isn’t true.  If you are interested, I highly recommend picking up an old edition of Mankiw’s intro micro text (they’re available cheap because the students don’t want them any more), as he gives a good presentation of these issues.  I teach from the book—he starts getting into taxation in the neoclassical supply/demand framework in Chapter 6, and develops it fully by Chapter 12.

Comment #23: Punditus Maximus  on  12/19  at  03:32 PM

I’m betting indoor tanning is way more regressive. The whole point of it is that it’s cheaper than going to get a tan.

Comment #24: paul  on  12/19  at  05:02 PM

Ugh, you’re totally right that the core political issue here is that politicians who want to remain popular will try to find a way to increase revenue without raising taxes in a way that is upsetting to everyone all at once, the way a flat-out increase in income tax would be.  It seems like it’s generally been more palatable politically speaking to use ‘sin’ taxes to accomplish this, which is of course why things like cigarettes and gambling have relatively high tax rates—it’s very very easy for the vocal middle (esp. middle-to-upper class) of the population to accept those taxes because they’re not only not as much affected by them (since they’re less likely to be smoking and gambling, PLUS they have a lot more discretionary income so a slight cost increase isn’t as hard for them to deal with). They also get the added bonus of being able to judge the people who do have to pay the new taxes.  Honestly, now that you bring it up I’m kind of surprised this kind of selective taxation hasn’t been against women before.  (That is, levied on things that are disproportionately purchased by women.)  Tax those tampons!  If those dumb women just did the right thing and got pregnant more often, they wouldn’t need em, so it’s really their own fault they have to pay a tampon tax!

A flat sales tax at least has the advantage of applying equally to all spending, regardless of gender—yes, I pay 6% on my tampons or whatever, but my good friend dudebro pays the same 6% on his Axe body spray and polo shirts.  The sales tax has its own issues (ie hitting lower-income people more heavily), but at least it’s not meant to punish any particular kinds of purchases.

And while I’m a huge fan of people NOT tanning (thanks, Dad’s brush with skin cancer!), shifting a stigma tax to something else really doesn’t change a damn thing.

Comment #25: ladybronwyn  on  12/19  at  05:22 PM

Women overwhelmingly are the patients,

Mmm - what are the exact stats on that ratio? I got the impression it was changing fast.

We’ve had the argument over sales tax when NZ introdyuced GST.  A single across the board rate is fairer - no exemptions for clothing, medicine or (in NZ’s case) books. If you want to subsidise these things, do it explicitly. And additional “sin taxes” should be based on the cost to society - I don’t think plastic surgery imposes any monetary damages on the rest of us.

Which is a different kettle of fish from the question of sales tax vs income tax vs wealth tax vs land taxes…

Comment #26: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/19  at  05:54 PM

“Mmm - what are the exact stats on that ratio?”

91% women according to this resource:
http://www.cosmeticplasticsurgerystatistics.com/statistics.html

Comment #27: Mintim  on  12/19  at  06:10 PM

It’s a commons problem, PIATOR, with a cost to society.  Normal signs of aging become abnormal. Kind of like human growth hormone to make your kid taller.  If it works, then more kids have to take growth hormone just to keep up with the average.

Comment #28: Unree  on  12/19  at  06:14 PM

Thanks.  I note that since 2006, procedures for women have gone up 1% and for men 17% - that must be the trend I vaguely recalled.

As regards taxes and the deficit, <a href=“http://bigbrassblog.com/media/6/20091216-chpp.org_121609bud.f11.jpg”>this graph>/a> from the Big Brass Blog might be of interest to people.,

Comment #29: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/19  at  06:15 PM

The story of the woman who wrote the article does not ring true to me.  I can’t picture sadistic doctors.

Jack, you don’t have to picture them, you can see them on TV. Check out the E! channel’s show Dr. 90210. It’s freaking disgusting. I understand where you might be coming from because when I was 19 I had 3 plastic surgeries to correct a congenital defect that I was horribly self-conscious about but was not a health risk. My surgeon was the head of the Plastic Surgery department for UCSF and was wonderful. He was honest (you’ll be sore and bruised for days maybe weeks),  patient and kind. So for years I didn’t understand the disgust aimed at plastic surgeons. Now I do. Seriously, watch it with a bucket near because you’ll want to vomit.

Comment #30: shakahi  on  12/19  at  06:47 PM

#28 THIS SO MUCH!

I get very frustrated with feminist discussions of plastic surgery* or stiletto heels other extreme beauty-standard measures that miss this fundamental point. That Botox article annoys me because it’s filled with a very non-specific handwaving guilt and a “Feminist Mommy would disapprove” vibe. And all the “it’s my body, I can do what I want with it” reactions against Feminist Mommy are just fucking inane.

Once you’ve analysed the situation as a commons problem you can get rid of the guilt; any one woman’s decision to get plastic surgery is going to have such a vastly small impact on shifting social norms that it would be daft to consider not doing it for that reason, if you’ll benefit from it personally. But you’re also understanding a rational reason why you’d feel guilty about it in the first place; you ARE cooperating with shifting social norms and helping to make it so that women have to work harder and waste more time and endure more pain to get “beauty” and the social benefits that come with it; and you’re excluding poorer women from attaining those social benefits. (Although of course “beauty” has always been a class marker.)
And once you understand the rational reason to feel guilty about the decision you can say something much more interesting in defense of your decision than “what if Gloria Steinem wouldn’t like me for doing this” or “I thought feminists wanted us to be able to control what we do with our bodies!”


*MOST feminist discussions of plastic surgery. Not this post. This post is fucking great.

Comment #31: daisyparker  on  12/19  at  06:49 PM

It would be interesting to know who actually pays for plastic surgery.  Does anyone have any stats?  Women overwhelmingly are the patients, but they are also overwhelmingly the owners of furs and jewelry, but I’d hazard a guess that those luxuries are more often financed by men rather than the women themselves.

For the record, I doubt that much of the plastic surgery which is undergone by women is financed by men.  (On the other hand, I don’t doubt that it’s mostly men who profit by it.)  Plastic surgery is one of those things women get in order to appeal to men.  Furs and jewelry are things some women get after they already have appealed to men.  These are two different categories.

Comment #32: bekabot  on  12/19  at  06:51 PM

PS Given that it’s a commons problem, this feminist thinks the idea of a plastic surgery tax is an absolutely fantastic one. It’s hardly a solution to the problem but slowing down the rate at which beauty standards are shifting by reducing the number of plastic surgeries has got to be a good thing.

Comment #33: daisyparker  on  12/19  at  06:57 PM

Amanda wrote:

I’m not.  I’m saying since they use their training for strictly selfish, often sadistic ends, then I’m not going to lose sleep at night having them pay more in taxes as a payment for their lush lifestyles.  They can afford to give back; a lot of doctors dedicate their lives to service.

That isn’t the point.  A tax on plastic surgery procedures will be borne by the patients, not the doctors; they’ll simply add that on to the cost of a procedure.  You might have a point were you talking about raising their income taxes, but that wasn’t the subject.

Comment #34: Dana  on  12/19  at  07:45 PM

This is a really outstanding post, Amanda, and reminds me again why you’re one of my favorite bloggers.

Comment #35: djw  on  12/19  at  07:52 PM

@ shakahi #30:  I haven’t heard of it, but I will check it out.  I still don’t know how you could get sadistic with a botox needle.  They’re tiny.  The one in the picture above is for a flu shot.  Who would get botox if they were going to jam that in your forehead?

Comment #36: jackspratt  on  12/19  at  08:04 PM

We also pay tax on toothpaste, shampoo, soap, toilet paper, anything that isn’t food and most of it is fairly necessary and not gender-specific. I don’t think bras qualify as “fancy” lingerie really. Not the Hanes ones I buy from Walgreens. A lot of work places have dress codes that stipulate that women have to wear bras - and for that matter nylons.

Comment #37: snobographer  on  12/19  at  08:12 PM

Dana:

You can’t believe in market economics and still believe that the cost of such a tax would be borne entirely by patients. Either doctors will reduce their prices to eat most or all of the tax or the number of people coming to them for surgery will decrease. And elective cosmetic surgery, by its very nature, is a market where people can shop around, and a doctor who is otherwise qualified but 5% cheaper will be able to fill their operating schedule…

Comment #38: paul  on  12/19  at  09:19 PM

Dana: please learn about concepts such as “elasticity of demand” before commenting further.

Comment #39: Tyro  on  12/19  at  09:31 PM

A single percentage rate tax, on everything, does that, without trying to fine-tune redistribution; people with more will spend more, so they’ll pay more in taxes.

Absolute fallacy, and only true in the context of raw numbers, not actual percentages.

When is $5 more than $5,000?

When the $5 belongs to the person with an annual income of $20,000, and when the $5,000 belongs to someone pulling in $50,000,000 in income.

Bill Gates could buy a yacht, five homes, twenty cars, and a private jet, and he could eat nothing but Kobe steak flown in from Japan daily and drink nothing but Dom Perignon over the next year… and he’ll still be spending a far, far, far smaller portion of his annual income than someone providing for a a family of four on a household income of $50,000.

Go ahead and institute a flat tax and see what happens.  Within 20 years, you’ll see 99% of all wealth trickling up to just 1% of the nation, and the remaining 1% of the country’s wealth will have to be completely subdivided among the other 99% of citizens.

The middle class will not just continue dying, it will be completely gone.  You’ll have 100 people in New York City who have a higher total net worth than the every other citizen of the city COMBINED.

And guess what happens next?  Revolution, in which we invade their penthouses, drag them out screaming by their hair, and behead people in the middle of Times Square.  And who is gonna stop us?  The police?  The same police who are in just as shitty a boat as the rest of us?

The best way to get people like Michael Bloomberg burned at the stake, literally, is to try to impose something as draconian as what you suggest.

And don’t talk to me about trickle-down economics and the charity of the wealthy.  When you give people at the top even bigger tax breaks than they already have (and don’t deserve), they don’t turn around and use their extra money to hire more workers, or donate that money to charitable organizations, at least not ina any sizeable way… they pocket it, invest it, and get even richer off of it.  And they keep almost all of it, because “it’s their money”.

The only area in which I support raising sales taxes is on luxury items.  A car that costs $50,000+ should be taxed at a higher rate than a car that costs $15,000.  A house that costs $500,000+ should be taxed at a higher rate than a home that costs $100,000.  A custom-made suit that costs $9,000 should be taxed at a higher rate than the cheap suit at a place like Men’s Wearhouse that costs $250.  Italian shoes that cost $5,000 should be taxed at a higher rate than $20 sneakers that one buys at Target.  A Rolex should be taxed at a higher rate than a Timex.

Comment #40: DTG in STL  on  12/19  at  11:52 PM

Here’s my flat-tax proposal:

5% flat sales tax on everything.
20% flat income tax on everything.
100% flat tax on all estate holdings in excess of $500,000.

Fair?

It doesn’t punish people who “work harder”, since the supposed “right” to inherit your relatives’ wealth has absolutely nothing to do with any work done by you whatsoever.  Paris Hilton wasn’t born with a $30 Million trust fund because she “worked harder” to get that kind of money - she got it because of her last name, which was pure luck on her part.  Call it the genetic jackpot.

If you are just such a special snowflake that you can get yourself into an executive position that’s gonna give you a 7-figure income, you don’t have to worry about being “punished” for your supposed productivity, because you’ll be paying the same income tax rate as the guy flipping burgers at Mickey D’s.  But your kids shouldn’t be exempt from having to go out and earn their own way, so they won’t be getting to keep most of that money once you die.

And we redirect our now huge treasury reserves to ensuring that every single American’s basic needs are met, regardless of their income.  A minimum standard of food, shelter, education, and healthcare will be provided by the money from the rich when they die.  People will be free to use any income above and beyond these standards however they want… until they die.  And then we take it back.  No one ever starves because they couldn’t afford to eat, no ever dies because they couldn’t afford shelter, no ever stays stuck in the worst neighborhoods because they couldn’t get decent education, and no one ever dies because they got couldn’t afford to get sick.

If you want to live in a 50,000 sq. foot mansion and have a yacht and a Gulfstream jet, fine.  Go out and pick yourself up by the bootstraps and earn it.  Nobody should have those sorts of things handed to them simply because they were born inot the right family, when so many in this country must go without even the most basic of necessities.

So many libertarians whine incessantly about their perception that progressive taxation is unfair, because it punishes people for being productive.  And then when it’s pointed out that so many of our rich people got that way simply because they were born, they love to fire back, “Well, nobody said life was fair.”

You demand fairness in income taxation, and yet any effort to address to patently unfair nature of wealth by inheritance is brusghed aside.

Fuck you.  We’ll agree to flat sales taxes and flat income taxes once you agree to let the government take all the money owned by the rotting corpses of dead rich people.  Because the children of those corpses did nothing to deserve that money more than anyone else.  Being born to a particular family shouldn’t automatically entitle someone to a far bigger piece of the pie than someone who wasn’t as fortunate.

If it’s all about “being fair” and allowing the most productive producers to make the most money, let’s make sure that is the only pathway to wealth for ANYONE.  Let’s start with a truly level playing field, such that those not born as fortunately have their minimum needs met so they actually have a reasonable chance to get ahead in this society.  Nobody gets to be rich by inheritance alone anymore.

Comment #41: DTG in STL  on  12/20  at  12:18 AM

Um, I live in Massachusetts.  No tax on bras or hosiery since there’s no clothing tax.  Everything else is covered by the state sales tax, just like everything that men have to buy, like shaving cream, aftershave lotion, razors, jock straps, and truss supports if they have a hernia.  Goods are goods, and the only thing that I might consider discriminatory on your list is my sanitary pads.

As for the bo-tax, I’m for it.

Comment #42: Ellid  on  12/20  at  01:07 AM

Ellid, if you’re going to get into SHAVING ... not only do women have to buy shaving cream and razors, but they also have to shave larger parts of their bodies.  My legs alone would go through one blade each.  Or it’s the waxing, laser hair removal, or depilatory creams.  Poor men have to shave one tiny part of their bodies, while women are expected to shave the majority of it.  And don’t get me started on stubble.  (Male stubble = sexy; Female stubble = OMG EWWWWW!!) 

Aftershave?  Women spend loads more on moisturizers and facial cleansers.  And makeup.

Jock straps?  Are you seriously going to try to tell me with a straight face that as many men wear jock straps as women wear bras?  Really?  Seriously?

And let’s not get into jobs requiring women to wear makeup, hosiery, or painful shoes. 

Pads, tampons, and other sanitary what-have-yous, pills for cramps or birth control or both (I still have massive cramps on the pill if I take a week off, so I try not to), conditioners and hairspray and all manner of hair care products, expensive salon treatments ... and these are just things that people might have to use to be normal and presentable. 

I think women are already paying more than their fair share in sales taxes to be presentable, clean, and conform to society’s standards.  Why not enforce a big ol’ sales tax on something MEN primarily use?

Comment #43: BonAppetit  on  12/20  at  02:30 AM

The botax, it seems, in the Senate bill is gone, but replaced by a tax on tanning salons.

Comment #44: revrick  on  12/20  at  09:42 AM

I’d be OK with the Botax—-if it paid primarily for, say, poor women who have breast cancer.  But it doesn’t.  It all goes into the pool, so the Congresscritters can tell a grateful nation; “Yes, we’re taxing those vain, selfish women who have plastic surgery—so the poverty stricken Bob Doles can get their 1400$ bottles of Viagra on the government dime.”

Comment #45: Blue Jean  on  12/20  at  01:29 PM

A tax on plastic surgery procedures will be borne by the patients, not the doctors;

Dana, this too is a statement which is interestingly false.  I would sincerely recommend that text I mentioned earlier.

Comment #46: Punditus Maximus  on  12/20  at  03:28 PM

DTG in STL,

The specific case of Paris Hilton is one in which her grandfather gave 97% of the family fortune to a charity set up by her father, so she actually worked for the majority of her wealth.  I won’t go into the specifics of whether or not she deserved or deserves to be paid for what she does, but as far as trust fund kids go, she’s not the best example of undeserved wealth.  Undeserved fame, however….

Still, I completely agree with your tax proposal and the reasons behind it.  But if you’re going to use famous trust fund kids, why not go after someone who will inherit something really big, like Julia Louis-Dreyfus?

Comment #47: 3letterjon  on  12/20  at  04:03 PM

DTG in STL

THANK YOU.  I have a libertarian friend.  His family is filthy rich and he gets everything handed to him.  OF COURSE he is opposed to increased taxes because it “punishes the productive”.  Productive?  This kid doesn’t even know how to do laundry or ship things in the mail.  He’s never had a real job in his life.  He has this weird delusion that he’s rich because he worked hard and earned it. 

My personal opinion is I have no problem with taxing the rich a little bit more and I have no problem with taxing elective plastic surgery either.  I won’t shed any tears if the rich become a little less rich and the poor become a little less poor.  Our country is becoming increasing similar to France before the french revolution, where there were only rich people and poor people.  At this rate soon we’ll have to drag the rich people out of their houses and behead them.

Comment #48: leedevious  on  12/20  at  05:31 PM

Why is there a tax on toilet paper and band-aids and tampons?

Because supposedly, these are ‘comforts’.

Not that you’ll get far in our country without them.

However, haven’t we already pointed out that the majority of ‘cosmetic’ surgery is consumed by middle and lower incomes?

Comment #49: Crissa  on  12/20  at  08:03 PM

I highly recommend picking up an old edition of Mankiw’s intro micro text (they’re available cheap because the students don’t want them any more), as he gives a good presentation of these issues.  I teach from the book—he starts getting into taxation in the neoclassical supply/demand framework in Chapter 6, and develops it fully by Chapter 12.

Comment #23: Punditus Maximus

I’m going to pick up this book and check it out, but really quickly; if a flat tax were extended out to cover sales of stocks, bonds, capitol gains, and investment securities, would the final result end up the same?

Comment #50: cynickal  on  12/21  at  01:28 PM

Tampons are expensive, which is why I am glad that I never have to buy them again (and yet, I still menstruate)

http://www.divacup.com/

Comment #51: Ursula  on  12/21  at  01:37 PM

cynickal:  The short answer is—yes.  Please do get the book; it’s not a concept which is easily explained by a couple blog posts. 

Also note that Mankiw is a prominent conservative intellectual who served in a head advisory role in the Bush admin.  This isn’t an ideological statement.

Comment #52: Punditus Maximus  on  12/22  at  02:01 AM

PiaToR (26):

A single across the board rate is fairer - no exemptions for clothing, medicine or (in NZ’s case) books.

One could argue taxing books violates Section 14 of the BoRA (or, in the USA, the 1st Amendment).

Mind, I don’t imagine this argument would stand up; New York’s sales tax applies to books.

DTG (41):

Fuck you.  We’ll agree to flat sales taxes and flat income taxes once you agree to let the government take all the money owned by the rotting corpses of dead rich people.  Because the children of those corpses did nothing to deserve that money more than anyone else.  Being born to a particular family shouldn’t automatically entitle someone to a far bigger piece of the pie than someone who wasn’t as fortunate.

I support this, and would point out to rich people who oppose it that the rich are still somewhat advantaged: for all my sister and I would get “only” half a million dollars from our parents, they still had a big house, sent two kids to private school and then college (though I went to Stuyvesant, whch only indirectly costs money), etc. etc. So even without the inheritance I get a certain advantage from having been born to the right parents. Hopefully that will help mollify the plutocrats.

That said, DTG, would you include charitable donations in the $500,000?

leedevious (48):

Productive?  This kid doesn’t even know how to do laundry or ship things in the mail.  He’s never had a real job in his life.  He has this weird delusion that he’s rich because he worked hard and earned it.

Can we count putting up with his parents? Rich people tend to be assholes, if only inadvertantly, so maybe he sees living with tem as “work.”

Comment #53: Hershele Ostropoler  on  12/22  at  12:13 PM

Aww, yes- ‘putting up with his parents’ has to be SO HARD. Boo fucking hoo. Way harder, than say, working a double shift a s a bartender at a televised Super Bowl game. /s

Comment #54: Doctress Julia  on  12/22  at  06:46 PM

Finally, a feminist not screaming SEXISM!!! at the ‘botax’. Thank you.

Comment #55: kiki  on  12/23  at  09:27 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.