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Next entry: The GOP wants to take your money and give it to rich people, full stop Previous entry: Measuring skulls

Sex addiction and avoiding gender essentialism

Sex

I really enjoyed this sparky interview Tracy Clark-Flory did with David Ley, who has an upcoming book called The Myth of Sex Addiction, which is coming out right after Newsweek did a big cover story on "sex addiction", so lucky him. Good timing, David! I'm a known skeptic of the idea of "sex addiction", which really got its start in Christian right circles and is usually deployed in fucked-up ways, to either shame people who actually have normal-enough sexual desires that simply need healthy outlets or to rationalize cheating behavior, especially male cheating behavior, by casting it as a pathology. In the latter case, society uses "sex addiction" to deflect more serious questions about the role of marriage in our society, and particularly the way that male privilege comes into conflict with increasing expectations that monogamous standards of marriage be applied to men as well as women. In other words, "sex addiction" has grown up in no small part because it smooths over the cracks that have erupted as many men cling to male privilege while women have started to demand equal treatment. 

Ley has a lot of intereseting points in this interview, especially with regards to the lack of evidence for sex addiction, the unbelievably low bars set by some proponents for diagnosis (one orgasm a day is considered excessive by some)  and the rejection of the diagnosis by the DSM. I'm intrigued and want to read his book. But I was really sad to read this section:

Yep. Instead of examining the application of the concept of monogamy over a 30- or 40-year marriage, and looking at how male sexuality works, it’s much easier to say: “Well, it’s a disease.” I include a quote in my book where a woman says, “When my husband was cheating, it really was a comfort to consider it a disease and that it really wasn’t his fault. Finally, I had to realize that it wasn’t a disease, it was just him being selfish and treating my life and health casually.” If we look at it as a choice, what changes?

I agree with most of this---and before you panic, I would argue that examining monogamy doesn't mean that you can't make a monogamous commitment at the end of the day---but I pulled a frowny face at the phrase "looking at how male sexuality works". The cure for a patriarchal diagnosis of "sex addiction" is not to re-engage stereotypes about men having a natural baseline of horniness that is so much higher than women's that women can't even understand it. That argument simply returns us to the status quo of demanding marriages where men get to cheat, but women are expected to be monogamous and like it. It also treads into that gender essentialism/evo psych zone, where evidence-free assertions about men and women's "natural" states are asserted instead of proven, and women are expected to just swallow it, even though those arguments always end up pushing in the direction of tolerating mistreatment while having our own desires clipped. Sexual desire is variable as hell between individuals and contexts. I think we can have this discussion without sweeping generalizations about male vs. female sexuality. 

It's entirely possible that Ley didn't intend that. He's also written a book about the fetish known as cuckoldry, a topic you can't even begin to understand unless you accept that our sexual desires are incredibly dependent on social context---women's cheating is eroticized in a way that men's isn't, because women's role as being "possessed" by their husbands gives it a much different meaning than men's cheating, which is understood more as a threat to a woman's social status. I'm not judging cuckolds, by the way. I think it's kind of an awesome example of how the human spirit digests toxic social mores and turns them into excuses to get off. But the existence of fetishes like that demonstrate that the ready assumption that men are hornier than women by nature are far too simple-minded to describe our realities and our contexts. As does the stats I'm sure he discovered in his research showing that women's cheating rates are fast approaching men's as our dependency on men decreases. 

It's an interview, and I agree with Ley that "sex addict" seems to be a term used to control and rationalize male behavior more than female behavior, so maybe he didn't intend to suggest what it seems he suggested. But I want to caution experts about sexuality to be careful to avoid essentializing phrases or arguments, because doing so creates real problems for real people. I can't speak with much authority to how men who have little desire to sleep around or who have low sex drives are hurt by pressure to be a "player", but I can speak to how it affects women to be essentialized as the less desirous sex. Women who crave frequent sex or who have a lot of partners are pathologized in our society, by others and by themselves. There are people who call you a slut, sure, but there's also the problem of having leering men who think you're a freak and though they claim to be approving of your sexuality, they may make demands on your attention, your time, and even your body because they buy into the same notion that a woman with a high sex drive or openness about her sexuality is open to all comers. In addition, women who find themselves in heterosexual relationships where they have more sexual desire than their partners, whether temporarily or just in general, often take being rejected for sex or being put upon to initiate it most of the time very hard on their self-esteem. If you believe that "men want it more", that he doesn't want it as often as you gets interpreted as "I'm boring" or "I'm unattractive". Because there's very little cultural room to talk about this problem, women in this situation have very little chance at getting relief or setting themselves straight. 

Otherwise, yeah: be skeptical of "sex addiction". There's an agenda there more often than not. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:20 PM • (131) Comments

“women who find themselves in heterosexual relationships where they have more sexual desire than their partners, whether temporarily or just in general, often take being rejected for sex or being put upon to initiate it most of the time very hard on their self-esteem.”

Neat description of the end of my last relationship. We had tears and self-esteem issues out of the fact that I didn’t want as much sex as her. She didn’t believe that and imagined either I thought she was unattractive or I was spending my energies elsewhere. I just wish we considered each other individual persons instead of casting upon each other some idea of what all men or all women are supposed to be and making judgments when the idea doesn’t fit.

Comment #1: Baruk  on  11/29  at  07:26 PM

Can you provide a link to the original article.

Comment #2: t-ster  on  11/29  at  07:30 PM

Fixed! Good catch.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/29  at  07:43 PM

I’ve long thought of “sex” addiction as much more of a combination of compulsive behavior and a fundamental rationalization of one’s destructive behavior.

Someone who insists on marrying someone and who agrees to a monogamous relationship, then can’t avoid sleeping around or renting sex is someone who suffers from selfish deceptive douchebaggery, not sex addiction.  Someone who clearly has no intention of entering a long-term relationship and is up front from the start and then has multiple partners is not a sex addict, either, but a person who is honest about their sexuality.

It isn’t the sex, it is the lying and charades and all of that that are the problem.  The “ideal” that one form of relationship should work for everyone and be forced on everyone is the problem.

Not to be confused with completely OCD sexual desire that is all-consuming and turns into nonstop masturbation, etc.  That’s something completely different.

Comment #4: Ms Kate  on  11/29  at  08:01 PM

Note also the parallels with closeted males on the DL ... the problem isn’t the homosexuality, the problem is the closet.

Comment #5: Ms Kate  on  11/29  at  08:04 PM

Ms Kate nails it.  Subtract out what’s very different—male privilege + the double standard, breaching a monogamous commitment and lying about it, high libido with no lies (in a person of any sex or gender identity), and OCD masturbation that disrupts daily life—and there’s nothing left to so-called sex addiction.

Comment #6: Unree  on  11/29  at  08:15 PM

I had a close friend in high school who went through a big ordeal.  She later revealed that it was an addiction to pornography and masturbation.  She hadn’t done a single thing that I myself hadn’t done the week before, but she felt so much guilt and shame, and her parents were so concerned about the whole thing.  At least one of her parents must have masturbated as a teenager, and probably frequently.  So I am really pissed at them for being judgy assholes instead of being understanding of a normal behavior.  This girl never did anything out of the ordinary.  She didn’t masturbate in front of others or steal credit cards to get more porn.  She just did what every teen does.

For weeks there were ambiguous prayer requests in both our church and our school’s Christian club.  I knew she was going through something and being severely punished, but since I’m a decent human being I told her I was there for her to talk about it but I wouldn’t pry.  And finally one day she finally revealed to me this deep, dark secret horrible thing she had done, something that was so shameful that she couldn’t even mention it by name in her prayer requests for “healing and guidance”.  And it turned out to just be masturbating to porn on the internet.

She was a good kid.  She got straight As and studied hard.  She never even experimented with alcohol, smoking, or other drugs.  She never had a boyfriend and high school and had never even kissed a boy.  But masturbating was called sex addiction, and because of that she was grounded for months (seems like a counter-productive way to stop masturbation), had her computer moved out to the garage, and was publicly shamed in a way that was meant to sound helpful but was actually very cruel.

Comment #7: bananacat  on  11/29  at  08:22 PM

I’m glad someone’s taking this on. I’ve long suspected that the recent interest in “sex addiction” has more to do with disciplining people’s sexual behavior than about treating legitimate mental health problems.

Don’t think I’ll be seeing the new Fassbender movie, either.

Comment #8: Linnaeus  on  11/29  at  08:33 PM

I think Dan Savage probably gets the closest to a good take on monogamy. People are too obsessed with the possible evo-psych “reasons” why people cheat, and aren’t really willing to accept that the baseline is that many human beings of both genders like to fuck a lot, sometimes like to fuck different partners, and that the framework of monogamy is a constraint and like any constraint requires work for many people, again of both genders, to maintain. And that also, like many constraints, it really may not be the best constraint for a lot of people with certain desires and appetites to attempt to conform themselves to.

Once you put yourself in that frame of mind, the idea of a “sex addiction” doesn’t make sense. Rather, there are simply people who are artificially constrained by models of monogamy. Instead of declaring them diseased, maybe they should seek a different model.

Comment #9: Dilan Esper  on  11/29  at  08:47 PM

One other thing about the lies. One of the reasons there’s so much lying associated with extra-marital and extra-relationship conduct is precisely because we have such a strong social condemnation of promiscuity, especially among those who are in paired relationships. In other words, our moral standards are quite a lot stricter than many people’s desires, and those moral standards get enforced.

I would suspect that in that sort of society, a ton of lying about sex is inevitable. Whereas if more people listened to Dan Savage, you might have more openness among partners regarding sexuality outside of the relationship.

Comment #10: Dilan Esper  on  11/29  at  08:50 PM

I’ve been up front with my sons: if you want monogamy, that’s fine.  If you don’t, be honest.  If you aren’t ready for sex, don’t have sex. In any case, USE CONDOMS.

Comment #11: Ms Kate  on  11/29  at  09:11 PM

If more people were aware of the fact that women can be just as horny as men, porn would also be SO MUCH BETTER.

Comment #12: dopus dei  on  11/29  at  09:34 PM

Dilan:

Sex addiction is just trying to avoid culpability for dishonest behavior.

Comment #13: BrianX  on  11/29  at  09:35 PM

People are too obsessed with the possible evo-psych “reasons” why people cheat, and aren’t really willing to accept that the baseline is that many human beings of both genders like to fuck a lot,

Cheating is about sex in the same way that rape is: only tangentially.  Cheating is not about being dissatisfied with your partner, and I don’t like any framing that suggests it is.  I’m all for polyamory and open relationships, but there are always boundaries and staying within them is part of being a decent human being.

Comment #14: bananacat  on  11/29  at  09:57 PM

@ Bananacat,

I completely disagree with the idea that “cheating is about sex in the same way that rape is: only tangentially.”  I am now speaking as a man who has never cheated on anyone, nor raped anyone.  That said I have never even been tempted to rape somebody, never have thought “boy, I’d better be careful or i might rape somebody” and never gotten too close to raping somebody because I was drunk.  On the other hand, when I am in a relationship, I am certainly tempted to cheat: being monogamous doesn’t stop me from being sexually attracted to other women, and the desire is always there. I agree that boundaries and decency are important, but cheating really is about the desire for sex.

There’s a reason the bible passage ” I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” is such an effective guilt trip. Every straight man has been there, and every straight woman out there has lusted after a man who was not her boyfriend/husband/etc.

In short: cheating is a matter of succumbing to a normal temptation.  Rape is something that, by the time you are tempted, you are already a giant douche.

Comment #15: Jon S  on  11/29  at  10:06 PM

“women’s cheating is eroticized in a way that men’s isn’t, because women’s role as being “possessed” by their husbands gives it a much different meaning than men’s cheating, which is understood more as a threat to a woman’s social status. “

I know what you’re trying to say (when you say “women’s social status”, you mean their economic stability more than their cultural identity, and you’re saying the reason that it’s not common has to do with gendered power relations), and agree, but don’t think you expressed it very well (due to the fact “social status” is an ambiguous term). The point of cuckoldry is that your wife cheating on you will damage your social status as a man, because of your inability to control her sexuality. The damaging of your masculinity/status is what’s eroticized, which is why cuckoldry is associated with male submission in general.

There’s also a subset of cuckoldry fetish that specifies that your wife/gf cheats with a black guy. This is supposed to add to how humiliating it is, either because a black person is getting one over on you, or because of stereotypes about black men being hypermasculine and having huge dicks, implying you as a meek white dude will never be able to satisfy her.

Not saying I judge people who are into cuckoldry (okay, I DO judge the ones that bring race into it) since you can’t exactly control what turns you on, but it does go to show how many fetishes are influenced by fucked up social norms.

Comment #16: Treefinger  on  11/29  at  10:16 PM

In short: cheating is a matter of succumbing to a normal temptation.  Rape is something that, by the time you are tempted, you are already a giant douche.

This is certainly true. I think bananacat very much overstated the case, but the question becomes why someone does or does not succumb to temptation. It can be “just sex” (and that stuff you’re breathing is just oxygen, to paraphrase some character in some movie), but there’s a lot of other stuff that goes into that beyond how badly you want some variation in your sex life.

Comment #17: chingona  on  11/29  at  10:17 PM

“the reason that it’s not common”

I meant “the reason that it’s not common in reverse.

Comment #18: Treefinger  on  11/29  at  10:18 PM

An old, but still relevant essay on this topic from Dr. Marty Klein, “Why ‘Sexual Addiction’ Is Not A Useful Diagnosis—And Why It Matters

Comment #19: MissCherryPi  on  11/29  at  10:30 PM

For the record I think 14 and 15 both have correct points. There are men - the kind of men who are also abusive and rapey, usually - who cheat on their wives specifically to demonstrate that they can and that they don’t give a fuck if their wife feels like shit as a result. In that situation it’s just another power play that abusive men love so much.

But not all cheaters cheat for that reason. Some cheat because they’re horny and do an insufficient job of controlling that. (Their fault, needless to say.) As a poly person, I will say that there’s nothing wrong with monogamy, but it’s not for everyone. That doesn’t excuse people who agree to enter into a monogamous relationship and then violate it - people need to think more about what works best for them as an individual, but society doesn’t exactly encourage that.

Comment #20: Triplanetary  on  11/29  at  10:31 PM

Some people also cheat because they genuinely feel attraction for the person they’re cheating with. Failing at monogamy doesn’t have to be something sinister, it can just be “hey, this woman is nice and attractive and I feel closer to her than I do with my wife.” It doesn’t have to be “and my wife sucks and I want to hurt her” or “those chumps think that they can put the brakes on my mighty male sexuality!”

I hope that the people tasked with re-writing the DSM stick to their guns about the definition of “addiction,” though. Classifying every little impulse control problem as an “addiction” seems like a really horrible idea as far as treatment is concerned.

Comment #21: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/29  at  11:04 PM

Some people also cheat because they genuinely feel attraction for the person they’re cheating with. Failing at monogamy doesn’t have to be something sinister, it can just be “hey, this woman is nice and attractive and I feel closer to her than I do with my wife.” It doesn’t have to be “and my wife sucks and I want to hurt her” or “those chumps think that they can put the brakes on my mighty male sexuality!”

Well, that’s kind of what I was trying to get at, but you said it better than I did. Some people have no trouble with monogamy, some do. There’s nothing wrong with the either group, but we’d all be better off if our society didn’t put so much pressure on people to be monogamous no matter what.

Comment #22: Triplanetary  on  11/29  at  11:15 PM

It isn’t an impulse control problem if you realize that you don’t want to stay faithful to another person and don’t promise to be faithful.

It is all in how you negotiate your relationships, and it is all about being honest with yourself and your partners.

Comment #23: Ms Kate  on  11/29  at  11:31 PM

I have less respect for people who fail at monogamy than for people who are polyamorous or successfully monogamous—what Ms. Kate said at #4 was important. Unless there’s a fucking gun to your head, even if you’re attracted to a third party and they’re attracted to you and they’re putting on a full-court press, the decision to cheat is an active decision, not just “oh, this happened to me. Darn, and I was really hoping to stay monogamous!”

I think that failing at monogamy, even in my scenario at #21, is a personal failing. Unless you specifically get the permission of the person that you’ve up-till-then been monogamous with in order to go off and have sex with the third party, you’re showing a lack of respect for the person that has probably said “no” to one or two tasty treats in order to stay faithful to you, but you’re applying different rules to yourself. I don’t think it’s “OMG throw them in the stocks and have everyone know their shame” territory, but this sort of gets at the heart of why we have this pressure to be monogamous: people want to feel that they are the sort of moral, upstanding person who would never cheat, and in order to prove that, they set themselves up in a monogamous relationship as a way of signifying that the person they’re with is “the only one for them.” I’m sure you’ve had experience with people who believe that as a poly person, the love you feel for your partner(s) is somehow not a mature love, when statistically speaking, you’re just being a lot more honest than all those monogamous people out there getting tail on the side.

Comment #24: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/29  at  11:40 PM

Gotta agree with Jon S that rape and cheating are NOTHING alike. Still, I think we can accept some middle ground. Some cheating is just a really weak moment in the face of extreme sexual temptation, but most sexual temptation is not that extreme. Most cheaters act because they have a stew of emotions, including desire but often also including issues with their partner. It’s complicated.

In contrast, rape really isn’t. Most rapists just like hurting and dominating women. Everything else is noise.

Comment #25: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/30  at  12:07 AM

Additionally, with rape, there’s an obvious and direct victim. Often, cheating isn’t experienced that way. Being betrayed sucks, but it’s not the same as being victimized or attacked. The cheated-upon may not have been the best partner; one of the problems is that cheating gets marked as this really obvious and provable transgression, whereas “emotional neglect” is harder to prove.

Comment #26: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/30  at  12:11 AM

I certainly do not intend to condone cheating, and yes, some people cheat out of malice or more complicated reasons.  That said, I think it is a problem when people in relationships, out of a heightened fear of cheating, are uncomfortable with their partners even finding anybody else attractive.

I also find it strange when there’s some scandal about cheating and the reaction is “why on earth would they do such a thing” when really, it’s not that difficult to imagine. This, I would contrast, with stuff like the Anthony Weiner scandal where, you have to wonder whether sending photos of your junk to random 19 year olds is so amazing that it’s worth jeopardizing a political career and new marriage to what appears to be an awesome woman for.  I guess with a lot of cheating I have a bit of a “there but for the grace of god go I” reaction.

Comment #27: Jon S  on  11/30  at  12:53 AM

Dan Savage’s term “monogamish” is fantastic. I can’t imagine being happy with anything else (which isn’t to say it would work for you. Or maybe it would!)

Comment #28: John Joel Glanton  on  11/30  at  12:56 AM

Comment #15: Jon S on 11/29 at 10:06 PM

@ Bananacat,

I completely disagree with the idea that “cheating is about sex in the same way that rape is: only tangentially.”  I am now speaking as a man who has never cheated on anyone, nor raped anyone.  That said I have never even been tempted to rape somebody, never have thought “boy, I’d better be careful or i might rape somebody” and never gotten too close to raping somebody because I was drunk.  On the other hand, when I am in a relationship, I am certainly tempted to cheat: being monogamous doesn’t stop me from being sexually attracted to other women, and the desire is always there. I agree that boundaries and decency are important, but cheating really is about the desire for sex.

I think it’s more complicated than either bananacat or you put it, but I feel she’s closer to the mark.  The way I see it, you’re picturing the encounters as purely sexual one-night stands, while she’s picturing them as more extended affairs that involve emotional intimacy.

In the latter scenario, I’d have to agree that the sex is only one piece of the appeal of the affair, which really comes down to the fact that the mistress provides an escape from the spouse.  Hugo Schwyzer’s remarks about the “ old temptation to seek out solace from a ‘woman who understands’” are spot-on in this case—it’s an escape from the difficulties of a committed relationship.  So it shares an element with fantasies—

The thing is that, I’m inclined to be skeptical of the one-night stands scenario that I think you’re picturing.  Sure, the temptation may well be there, but if the guy does go through with it I think it’s far more likely to turn into an extended affair than you’re assuming.  (And to be blunt, I think that you see it the way you do because you’ve never cheated.  You’ve experienced the temptation part, but not the “escape from the normal difficulties of a relationship” part.)

Comment #29: sacundim  on  11/30  at  01:03 AM

Sex addiction is just trying to avoid culpability for dishonest behavior.

No, sex addiction is an attempt to enforce an unenforceable standard of sexual propriety on people who have legitimate sexual desires. And the reason we have so much dishonest behavior relating to sex is basically the same—that we try to enforce too strict a standard of sexual propriety, so that when people do pursue their desires, they have to do it on the QT.

Comment #30: Dilan Esper  on  11/30  at  01:24 AM

Cheating is about sex in the same way that rape is: only tangentially.  Cheating is not about being dissatisfied with your partner, and I don’t like any framing that suggests it is.  I’m all for polyamory and open relationships, but there are always boundaries and staying within them is part of being a decent human being.

Whoa. You are right that (at least most) cheating is not about being dissatisfied with your partner. (I could quibble with you about a few situations, such as the couple where one partner just becomes completely disinterested in sex but they stay together for other reasons, but generally, your statement is right.)

But cheating IS a result of the fact that rigidly enforced monogamy is not a very successful model of sexual relations. A better comparison would be to speakeasies during Prohibition. Speakeasies were a result of the fact that rigidly enforced alcohol prohibition was not a very successful model.

Comment #31: Dilan Esper  on  11/30  at  01:28 AM

I think that failing at monogamy, even in my scenario at #21, is a personal failing. Unless you specifically get the permission of the person that you’ve up-till-then been monogamous with in order to go off and have sex with the third party, you’re showing a lack of respect for the person that has probably said “no” to one or two tasty treats in order to stay faithful to you, but you’re applying different rules to yourself.

By the time people get into sexual relationships in this society, the ideal of monogamy has been drilled into them for many years. The ideal of marriage has been drilled into them for many years as well, and even with respect to unmarried couples, there are great social expectations that people form relatively stable heterosexual pairs. Anyone who is unconventional—gays, bis, polys, swingers, promiscuous singles, etc.—faces a strong social sanction.

Given that social pressure, I don’t think it’s possible to analyze cheating on a simple model of quasi-contractual promise, where you promised to be faithful and then didn’t. That may be how it seems to the person who was cheated on, but that’s not an accurate description of the social context of sexuality.

Here’s an imperfect example. In the past, divorce was harder to obtain. As a result, merely being unhappy in a marriage (“irreconcilable differences”) was often not grounds for divorce; there had to be a showing that the other partner was at fault (abuse, mental cruelty, adultery, etc.). And the result of this was that in addition to the loads of abusive marriages that stayed together, there were also lots of couples who weren’t really abusive to each other but who were just unhappy. In addition to the legal restrictions, there was also a heavier social stigma attached to divorce.

Now, if someone in one of THOSE marriages cheated, would you say, automatically, that this was a “personal failing”? I wouldn’t. Nor would I say that it was a “personal failing” because the spouse did not get the other spouse’s consent to have the affair. There’s no way you could analyze the moral dimensions that particular sex act by solely looking at the promises in the marriage contract. That marriage contract was the result of a social context that enforced very specific, unfair, and unrealistic demands on spouses.

Now, thankfully, we don’t live in THAT society anymore. But we still live in a society that expects long-term heterosexual monogamy as a social norm and enforces that norm through social sanction. It’s easy enough to say “get consent from your partner”, but the reality is, that partner was raised in that same social context and would suffer the same social stigma you would if he or she were perceived to be in an “open” relationship. (If you want a recent, public example of this, look at the bad publicity Ashton and Demi are getting right now.) And divorcing or breaking up, of course, also carries its own social stigma.

In a perfect world, people would be under no pressure to couple monogamously and would create their own, fully informed arrangements regarding sexuality. In the real world, very few people get to do that. The rest have to live within the strictures that society sets and enforces. Cheating is inevitable within those strictures.

Comment #32: Dilan Esper  on  11/30  at  01:40 AM

This is also the only big criticism I had of the otherwise mind-blowingly awesome book, Sex At Dawn. After a long treatise full of hard facts and studies supporting the idea that people, men and women alike, are generally highly sexual creatures that are extremely unlikely to have evolved in a monogamous context, and that women are just as, if not more, sexual than men… after all that… they launch into a discussion of how all of this plays out in modern marriages and, while I do not take issue with any of the points they raised, I do take issue with the fact that they suddenly start talking about *only* the male desire for sexual novelty. After a long book spent doing a fantastic job refuting what they call the “standard narrative” of sexual desires/behaviors, they suddenly fall right into that trap and start talking as if men are the only ones who feel the need to cheat and men are the only ones who suffer within the confines of monogamy. It’s jarring and upsetting and completely out of line with the rest of the book.

All it would have taken was just a little tweaking to include both genders, or at least a reiteration of the strong role that society plays in shaping women’s sexual behaviors or desires (or at least what they *think* they desire, as one study brings up). It’s incredibly disappointing, and I think it’s a question that I need more than the space that Twitter allows to ask, so I hope I get to meet one or both of the authors at some point and ask them… why?!

Comment #33: artdyke  on  11/30  at  03:46 AM

Hugo Schwyzer wrote a bit about how the “sexual male” narrative affects men recently:
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/are-you-gay-or-something-why-its-so-much-harder-when-she-wants-it-more/

Comment #34: AndersH  on  11/30  at  06:23 AM

Just want to add, on the “cheating is a moment of weakness” thing, I either reador read about (it’s been a while) an interview with a female PI who’s hired by women to see if she can seduce their husbands, as some kind of “test of character”, and she claims she’s never been turned down. Now, granted, she isn’t exactly likely to be hired if the relationship’s going well, but it’s still interesting.

Comment #35: DataSnake  on  11/30  at  08:54 AM

#35—

If you think your partner is cheating, chances are likely that zie is.  I don’t find it surprising that a woman hired to tempt men who are thought to be cheating can get them to cheat.  The cheating accusation doesn’t come out of thin air.  Generally there is a pattern of behavior that would lead a person to believe their partner is cheating.

Every time I hear some schmuck on a TV show claim sexual addiction, it’s usually coming out of the mouth of a total douchecanoe trying to cover for his shit behavior.  Most of these guys show a complete lack of control just in their behavior while being interviewed.

Comment #36: speedbudget  on  11/30  at  09:29 AM

Dilan, that’s more than just an imperfect example and you know it. If you have a situation where the marriage contract has already been breached by party A, it hardly counts as a failing if party B re-evaluates their own decision to adhere to the contract themselves. Yeah, I just insinuated that beating your wife is a violation of the marital contract. I’m edgy like that.

Comment #37: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/30  at  09:58 AM

I got that Newsweek in the mail yesterday. The cover headline is “The Sex Addiction Epidemic ZOMG!!!1!” The article seemed like a lot of bullshit. I decided to let my subscription to this magazine expire what seems like a year and a half ago, but it just keeps showing up in my mailbox.

Comment #38: Jimmy  on  11/30  at  10:16 AM

I didn’t read Ley’s remarks as particularly gender essentialist, “how male sexuality works” strikes me as the social constructs surrounding it pretty much by definition. I could, of course, be wrong, given what artdyke said.

As for the cheating and moral failing, it is - of course - complex. But as someone who has been cheated on in poly/non-monogamous relationships, the “it just happened” explanation doesn’t really fly with me.

Comment #39: LC  on  11/30  at  10:25 AM

I was married for awhile to someone who wound up with that diagnosis. However, in his case, I think it was more likely to be narcissism or some kind of sociopathy, and the sexual stuff was just one of the many ways in which his inability to see people as people instead of objects got expressed.

Comment #40: Jodi  on  11/30  at  10:34 AM

ArtDyke - They addressed this, somewhat unsatisfactorily IMO in the paperback edition. They put the full text online here.

Comment #41: MissCherryPi  on  11/30  at  10:36 AM

Jodi, that sounds similar to the only person I know of who even broached the idea of “being diagnosed” with sex addiction. (Whether there ever was such a diagnosis is difficult to ascertain, as truth wasn’t high on his list of priorities.)

Comment #42: LC  on  11/30  at  11:04 AM

“I would argue that examining monogamy doesn’t mean that you can’t make a monogamous commitment at the end of the day—-but I pulled a frowny face at the phrase “looking at how male sexuality works”. The cure for a patriarchal diagnosis of “sex addiction” is not to re-engage stereotypes about men having a natural baseline of horniness that is so much higher than women’s that women can’t even understand it. “

Yet the fact that men have higher levels of testosterone and objectively pursue sex more—in aggregate—doesn’t seem to fit into your reasoning.  I think sex addiction is a crock, too, but the “stereotype” about male sexuality being one of the most profound motivators in his life is based on pretty clear-cut, objective evidence.  While you can point out any particular individual who might deviate from the aggregate in any conceivable way, failure to acknowledge the clear difference in aggregate sexual desire/behavior between men and women undermines the credibility of the rest of the post.

Comment #43: Ian Ironwood  on  11/30  at  12:09 PM

  Ms. Kate at 4, has probably the best definition of “sex addiction” possible. To put it in a different context, “sex addicts” are basically members “sex fandom” and just like other fandoms there are people who engage compulsively in their hobby, do some rather stupid things because of this, and try rationalization whatever they did. There are numerous examples of this in anime, sports, gambling or really any other activity. “Sex” addicts are no more addicted to sex than a gambler is addicted to the roulette wheel or the lottery. Part of me doubts that its even biologically possible to be addicted to an action in the same way that people are addicted to a substance but I’m willing to accept scientific evidence to the contrary.

  Amanda is also right that many “sex addicts” are people with the normal sexual desires who lack a healthy outlet for it. I know this from personal experience.* The thing is that providing a healthy outlet can be hard. We can get away with the notions that homosexuality is evil, that women who have sex a lot are sluts, or that one should be a virgin until married but this doesn’t mean that we could provide an outlet for everybody. The best that could be done probably is creating a society where most sexual desires are viewed as normal or healthy but ensuring that everybody has an outlet for their desires is not that easiest thing.

  *I’m finding the entire process of online dating to be extremely frustrating. My current dating life consists of exchaging messsages online, arranging to meet for coffee, and having the other party cancel at the last minute. This happened to me seven times since Labor Day. Its the other parties right to cancel but I’d really wish that people would be more forthright with not wanting to really meet people in person.** 

    **An acquitance of mine once theorized that many people who engage in online dating don’t really want to meet people but are seeking romantic validification, they want to know that people are interested in them romantically and/or sexually but aren’t that interested in actually meeting people in the flesh. There seems to be more than a little truth to this.

Comment #44: Lee  on  11/30  at  12:09 PM

Ian @43:

It’s easy to think that from inside our culture, but there are other cultures in the world that think women have a ravenous sex drive and are never satisfied (and therefore must be controlled.) 

Who knows what people would look like in our natural state, it doesn’t even really matter, the bigger point is people are driven by what stories we believe about ourselves, so let’s tell stories that make us all happy.  For instance, wouldn’t you rather live in a culture where women weren’t told that they were bad people for wanting to have sex?  It would probably make a difference in their sex drive.  And wouldn’t it be nice to live in a culture where men weren’t made to feel like they had to be “on” all the time, sexually?  It would probably make everyone feel more comfortable. 

The world is more flexible than we’ve been led to believe.

Comment #45: hideandseek  on  11/30  at  12:30 PM

Lee, I’ve heard that theory about just wanting validation on being desirable as well.

Comment #46: LC  on  11/30  at  12:40 PM

 
  LC at 46: It makes a lot of sense. Our society tends to stress the importance of being desirable and those viewed as none desirable are treated as freaks.* By seeking romantic validification through online dating people affirm their normality. At the same time, it can make online dating an even more frusrating experience than it is if you genuinely want to meet somebody in real life. Its like trying to find a very small needle in a very large haystack.

  *One thing that I think doesn’t get discussed enough by the pro-love/sex faction is the effect of living in a very romantic/sexualized society and people who have horrible love/sex lives. From personal experience, I’ve gotten also sorts of well-meaning but not so helpful advice like “it happens when you least expect it”, “someday your day will come” or the worst of all people who had bad relationships telling me how lucky I am to be single and not with anybody. I really don’t feel that lucky about it.**

    **I apoligize for using this thread as venting space and I really hope I’m not coming off as a Nice Guy (TM) but I’ve been feeling a lot of frustration about this aspect of life recently.

Comment #47: Lee  on  11/30  at  12:51 PM

 
  hideandseek at 45: European cultures used to think that women were the ones with the high libido that needed to be controlled in order to protect the purity of men. It was accepted wisdom from Antiquity to the Renaissance. During the 17th century, European thought seemed to stress the horniness of both genders with women gaining a reputation for having low libidos sometime during the mid to late 18th century.

Comment #48: Lee  on  11/30  at  12:55 PM

I think sex addiction is a crock, too, but the “stereotype” about male sexuality being one of the most profound motivators in his life is based on pretty clear-cut, objective evidence.  While you can point out any particular individual who might deviate from the aggregate in any conceivable way, failure to acknowledge the clear difference in aggregate sexual desire/behavior between men and women undermines the credibility of the rest of the post.

Not only were women thought to be the lustier sex for most of European/Near Eastern history (the Talmud tells men how often they must have sex with their wives to meet their obligations to them - hardly think this would be necessary if men were thought to want it all the time), but in modern times, women are much more likely than men to initiate counseling over sexual issues. Men not wanting it as much as women is a very common complaint for marriage counselors. It’s not just a matter of individuals deviating from the statistical norm. The so-called “clear-cut, objective” evidence is actually a very mixed bag.

Comment #49: chingona  on  11/30  at  01:18 PM

  For those interested in Jewish trivia: The number of times that husbands and wives were supposed to have sex was based on the husband’s occupation. When the husband was so rich than he did have to work, the wife was allowed to demand sex everyday during the proscribed period. Most other husbands had to have sex with their wives at least once a week. Sailors at least once every six months.

Comment #50: Lee  on  11/30  at  01:36 PM

Mothers, don’t let your daughters grow up to marry sailors.

Comment #51: chingona  on  11/30  at  02:15 PM

How to navigate relationships/marriage with integrity is very interesting to me. I can imagine raising family, but I can’t imagine being sexually monogamous for more than a few years. So what’s the right thinh to do? I figure Dan Savage would tell me to find a woman who’s into an open marriage. And I would be totally down with that. But suppose no such woman could be found, or that this woman would be in all other respects a worse match and more likely to result in divorce anyways? Does that mean I must never have a family rather than risk the chance that I will stray some years into the marriage?
In other words, how hard is it in real life to choose integrity over hypocrisy? Especially when your desire for open marriage goes against the grain of social conditioning and marital expectations?

Comment #52: ArielNYC  on  11/30  at  02:20 PM

I can’t answer that question for you, Ariel, but I will say that I have a wandering eye and a cheating heart myself and I’ve managed to be monogamous for more than 10 years now and am relatively content with it. But really, you should probably cross that bridge when you find someone you think you want a family with and they either are or aren’t open to an open marriage, and then cross it with eyes wide open. It’s a lot better to hurt someone by breaking up with them before you have kids because you don’t want the same things then to cheat after you have a bunch of kids and she feels trapped and humiliated.

Comment #53: chingona  on  11/30  at  02:49 PM

@chingona

I’m confused. You say cross the bridge when you get there, but then you rightly worry about cheating once you have kids. So this calls for setting the terms ahead of time no?

Anyways, once you factor out divorces and cheating, how many marriages can be said to be successful and free of hypocrisy? I get the impression that Don’t Ask Don’t Tell might be the least terrible option, at least given society as it is.

Comment #54: ArielNYC  on  11/30  at  03:08 PM

I think there CAN be an addictive quality to sex and relationships. I’ve experienced it myself. And I think that it has less to do with the form of the relationship (monogamy, polyamory, one-night stands) than it does with whether we’re doing it for its own sake or to fill something else in our lives that a relationship can’t really fill.

For example: Am I having the one night stand because I want a one night stand or is it to prove what a irresistible sex monkey I am?

Do I want monogamy because I want monogamy or because I want to prove something to myself or the world?

Do I want polyamory because I want polyamory or because I’m hooked on the emotional rush of having constant ‘relationship stuff’ to deal with in my life?

But those things aren’t necessarily visible from the outside. I guess the question we have to ask is if our relationships are making us feel better or worse?

Comment #55: dan_brodribb  on  11/30  at  03:12 PM

@Lee I’ve had about nine (lackluster) dates via OKCupid in the past 6-8 months and only one cancelled on me (just a few hours before the date and then promptly deleted his profile). So, I wonder if the cancellation thing is more commonly experienced by heterosexual men? Of course, the plural of antedote isn’t data, but ya know? It sucked the one time it happened to me, but it was such an extreme reaction (deleting his profile, coming down with “step throat” three hours before a date, etc.) that I know I was well shod of him. But as a consistent thing, I wonder if you should try a different online service?

Speaking of libido: friends and just observing the phenomenon of women complaining about having a higher libido than their male partners (which I’ve felt before at times too), is that often the discussion goes from “he’s not that sexual” to “maybe he’s gay and doesn’t know it.” Low libido can become a source of anxiety for the woman (I’m not good enough/sexy enough/thin enough/etc.) and/or it can result in questioning a man’s heterosexuality/masculinity. If sexuality of both men and women came to be seen as more variable within the “sexes” than as some sort of straight (ha) generalization about the sexes, this would help the dialogue…and the couples counseling couch.

Comment #56: Thealogian  on  11/30  at  03:13 PM

“Yet the fact that men have higher levels of testosterone and objectively pursue sex more—in aggregate—doesn’t seem to fit into your reasoning.”

Objective since when?  As others have pointed out, in other cultures and times, it is/was “known” that women were super-horny and had to be controlled to prevent them from running amok, sexually.  Which frankly makes sense, what with the potential for multiple orgasms and whatnot.  Hell, men wouldn’t even worry about their wives cheating on them unless they knew that their wives actually liked having sex. 

Who is expected to/is allowed to pursue sex is incredibly culturally constrained.

Comment #57: Kit-Kat  on  11/30  at  03:28 PM

@Thealogian

Regarding mismatched sex drives, I think too often in these discussions we peg individuals as either horny or not so horny. But if you reflect on your own sexual experience, would you say that your desired quantity of sex was in no way influenced by your attraction to your mate? I think we can make distinctions between relationships that start with a high volume of sex then peter out vs relationships that never really take off sexually.

Comment #58: ArielNYC  on  11/30  at  03:32 PM

ArielNY:

If you have children with someone, you are going to be in a relationship with that person for the rest of your life whether or not you are legally married.  So you should probably choose someone you can get along with for a while.

Comment #59: hideandseek  on  11/30  at  03:44 PM

@Treefinger It’s more than a subset of the cuckoldry fetish that has a racial component; it’s probably more accurate to say that a subset of it DOESN’T have a racial component. Most of the porn/erotica/talk related to this fantasy is indeed black men with white women while their white husbands watch. It’s to the point where lots of kinky people are skeeved out by it. Cuckoldry almost fits under the heading of race play at this point.

Comment #60: Liz212  on  11/30  at  03:55 PM

@Kit-Kat

I think the tricky issue with this debate is how to we define desire for sex. When guys say they’re hornier than women they usually mean that they are less discriminating and more eager to bang whatever comes their way. By contrast. you see references in feminist spaces to a study that shows women would totally shag some male celebrity as proof that that women can be just as horny as men (can’t find the link right now). Which are two totally different things. So if you qualify the statement to be “what’s your desire to shag some random average person”, you will likely get different results based on gender. I’d be interested to see a study that makes respondants imagine they had the opportunity to have safe, easy sex with a random stranger of average attractiveness and skill, and how eager they would be to go for it.

Comment #61: ArielNYC  on  11/30  at  04:05 PM

@ Lee

I don’t think you are sounding like the “nice guy” but, to be constructive, I haven’t experienced the same problem with online dating as you are talking about.  If I might ask, what do you actually say in those messages? Could be you are inadvertently saying something that puts the women off.

Comment #62: Jon S  on  11/30  at  04:14 PM

@hideandseek

For sure. But how much should one be willing to sacrifice for unimpeachable marital integrity? Judging by marriage as it is experienced in real life, it’s not as simple as just being honest and considerate.

Comment #63: ArielNYC  on  11/30  at  04:16 PM

I mean “cross that bridge” in that if you are ever dating someone with whom you want a family and who wants a family with you, bring up the monogamy thing with them and think about where you’re at with the whole thing. Sometimes people who thought they never wanted to settle down find they actually are okay with it. Sometimes not. You don’t have a crystal ball, but you also don’t have to sit around thinking about having kids with someone you don’t like who won’t be a good mother just because they’re open to non-monogamy.

Comment #64: chingona  on  11/30  at  04:46 PM

  @Thealogian, I’ve heard similar anecdotes about online dating in general from my brother and other men. The actual dating serviced doesn’t seem to matter. Nor does it really seem to matter whether the site is for pay or free. The good thing about OkCupid is that profiles are usually rather completely filled out compared to others sites. It makes it easier to initate conversations. The Jdate profiles are horrible because the practice seems to be putting up as little info as possible in your profile. Responding to a JDate profile is like seeing an attractive stranger and approaching them. OkCupid profiles give you more to work with in the initial attempt to contact. Thank you for sharing your experiences though, it makes me feel better to know that others are in a similar situation.

  This gets to to JonS’ inquiry at 62: My general technique is to find something in the profile to inquire about and work with that. In my most recent encounter, I was responding to a young woman who lived in Brooklyn that said she liked strong coffee. In my first message I asked what her favorite cafe was, introduced myself, and told her what my favorite coffee place was. She responded with her favorite cafe and its location and said that she never tried my cafe and asked me if I lived in X neighborhood. I then answered her questions, asked if she live in Y neighborhood, and suggestted with that maybe she should try our cafes together. In her second response she said that this was a lovely idea and answered my questions and asked me how long I’ve lived in Brooklyn for. Then, I answered her questions and asked when did she want to meet. Her final response was to thank me for the kind offer but stated that she realize that she doesn’t have time to date, and that she was quiting OkCupid for awhile but suggest that maybe we will meet again.

  Now all of this maybe true, I have no reason to doubt her. However. its really weird to respond with a suggestion that trying out our respective cafes together was a lovely idea, which basically suggests that she wanted to meet in public, and then say that she doesn’t have time to date. This was in the course of a two day period, so one day she wanted to meet me and the next day she ended her OkCupid account. At best she seems open to meeting me but not now, which isn’t really that encouraging.

  So JonS, I generally find something in the profile that I can ask a few questions about and that I can also use to give a little info about myself. If she responds, I generally suggest meeting in public for coffee or something after the second or third response but relatively quickly. The answer is usually yes followed by a cancellation.

Comment #65: Lee  on  11/30  at  04:47 PM

I think the tricky issue with this debate is how to we define desire for sex. When guys say they’re hornier than women they usually mean that they are less discriminating and more eager to bang whatever comes their way. By contrast. you see references in feminist spaces to a study that shows women would totally shag some male celebrity as proof that that women can be just as horny as men (can’t find the link right now).

Okay. I didn’t think either one of those was what was typically being referred to by “desire for sex.” I think of desire for sex as how often, on average, you want to do it. If a woman wants to do it four times a week, but is okay with doing it with one person*, and a guy wants to do it twice a week, but he’ll do it with anybody, why is he hornier?

*Just for purposes of this example. Not at all stipulating that women don’t like variety. The study in which random strangers approached people and asked them to have sex offers no insight into what women would want in a world where they didn’t worry that strangers asking for sex might turn out to be serial killers.

Comment #66: chingona  on  11/30  at  04:53 PM

@Lee ok, I know that this comment stream was not meant for dating advice, but I will tell you that I will not go out with someone (from OkCupid or another online site) after only two days of messaging. This is not a universal position by any means, but that could be your problem. You should try to keep an online conversation up for a week or longer before actually suggesting an in-person meet-up. Regardless of my individual comfort level, it is common women’s magazine advice to NOT meet a man until after a certain period of time when “courting” online. This might be nonsense, but its another perspective and one you might want to consider. Good luck!

Comment #67: Thealogian  on  11/30  at  04:58 PM

  Thealogian at 67: I’ve done both. Usually, I try to suggest meeting as soon as I think its appropriate. If I get a vibe or an opportunity comes up to ask a person to meet in public than I ask earlier. If not, I wait a bit. Generally, I try to arrange meeting in real life sooner rather than a later because in the past my impression was that people loose interest if you wait too long. Other people have similar beliefs about this.

   

 

Comment #68: Lee  on  11/30  at  05:16 PM

@ Lee

I always try to schedule a date earlier than sooner as well. That way I don’t waste time on people I docn’t click with IRL and also screen out unserious leads.

My guess as to what may be happening to you would be, in no particular order;

1. Bad luck
2. Self selection for flakes/erratic women (young women, very attractive women with lots of options, etc)
3. Something that women pick on at the last momenet that rubs them the wrong way (I know I’m not great with phone conversations, for instance).

 

Comment #69: ArielNYC  on  11/30  at  05:37 PM

 
    ArielNYC: Yes, my feeling that its mainly bad luck. Like I said, its like trying to find a very small needle in a very large haystack. There might be self-selection problems but I’m not really going for anybody “young” and for attractivness, I’m a handsome man whose fit and in shape, so that shouldn’t be a problem.

Comment #70: Lee  on  11/30  at  05:51 PM

Kit-Kat @57—not to mention, testosterone works on different genders VERY differently. Men produce a lot more testosterone, but that’s because they’re not very sensitive to it. Women, OTOH, are *incredibly* sensitive to testosterone, where a little drop in their system can produce reactions that would have required substantially more in the male system. (And yes, women do produce testosterone, it’s just not our primary hormone, so we don’t produce a lot of it, but what we do produce, our body REALLY pays attention to).

Comment #71: Mighty Ponygirl  on  11/30  at  05:54 PM

@ chingona

I guess there are men out there who combine low libido with a high desire for variety. I can speak for myself and say I would be totally fine with having a different partner every night of the week, but sex with just one less-than-exciting partner? I would be fine with twice a week. I think we need to come up with better definitions. Maybe Potential Vs. Realized libido?

Comment #72: ArielNYC  on  11/30  at  06:04 PM

Mighty Ponygirl - I have a vague recollection of absolute levels of testosterone being a bad thing to draw conclusions from not only from the sensitivity issue, but from some evidence that it can be the level change that is important? (i.e - if you are sort of normally at 5, then a shift to 6 may cause effects similar to someone shifting from 10 to 12. to use entirely arbitrary numbers.)

Something like that, involving relative values and the proportional change in those values. Regardless, the take home message I remember was that it isn’t as simple as “more = X” when comparing across populations. (Even if “more = X” works well for individual people.)

Comment #73: LC  on  11/30  at  06:48 PM

Cheating is actually a very common form of abuse.  The cheater will blame their spouse by claiming they just weren’t good enough to keep them around.  It’s a way to tell the abuse victim that you could drop them any time and they should be grateful to even have you.

People don’t cheat just because they’re horny.  If they really aren’t getting enough sex to be satisfied, then they need to talk about it with their spouse.  I’m all for open relationships.  It becomes cheating when there is lying, deceit, or manipulation.  And if the cheater really is in true wuv with the person they are cheating with, then they should attempt to divorce their current spouse and then go with the person they love.  Of course some people don’t believe in divorce, but those people also don’t believe in cheating but they do that anyway.  So there is clearly more to it than just being too horny or falling in love with another person.  Cheating is never just about wanting more sex or liking someone better than your current spouse.  I’ve heard every excuse in the book, but I’ve never met a cheater that gave me a plausible excuse.  Scratch the surface and you’ll find a lot more going on.

Comment #74: bananacat  on  11/30  at  07:36 PM

@bananacat

I guess what goes in people’s heads is: I could choose integrity and have this painful conversation with my spouse to renegotiate our marriage that may well blow up my marriage, destroy my finances, take away my house, kids, etc etc. Or I could have flings and pray nobody will catch me. So on its own terms it seems like having discreet affairs is the more rational decision.

I’m all for for Dan Savage’s monogamish approach. I just wonder how one should negotiate this when most potential partners will likely balk at the proposition, triumph of hope over experience and all that.

Comment #75: ArielNYC  on  11/30  at  08:15 PM

Lee: this does sound largely like a string of bad luck.  That said, and without diverting into dating advice too much - perhaps you should be more concrete with plans. If you are going to suggest a meet up, specify date, time, and place. If she’s busy, she can say so, but I feel like people are more likely to respond well if you basically lay out a plan, rather than ask them to make one. (I don’t mean this as a silly “the man should make the plan” but would happily give this advice to anyone of any gender or sexual orientation).

Comment #76: Jon S  on  11/30  at  08:15 PM

@ArielNYC, honoring the terms and conditions of your commitments is also an option.  I have had opportunities here and there for extramarital activities myself - very attractive ones at that - but I know damn well that isn’t part of the deal for me.

Too many people want to have it both ways - all the side action they can get, with the advantages of the commitment.  If people were up front about this it wouldn’t be a problem - but I suspect the “playing it both ways” is attractive to some people on its own. 

See also: married men who frequent prostitutes and then insist that their wives would approve because they don’t like that kind of sex, etc.

Comment #77: Ms Kate  on  11/30  at  09:07 PM

Sex addiction accusations tend to be a lot like drug addiction accusations.  If you are caught doing it when you’re not supposed to or more than you’re supposed to, if you enjoy it or look forward to doing it “too much,” if it ever has a negative effect on your life in any way, if you hurt someone’s feelings over it, if you’re too young, if you don’t show appropriate shame, then you must be addicted.  Because good well socialized drones don’t do anything they’re not supposed to and there is some kind of sickness in people who don’t conform.

That’s obviously bullshit. 

I think real sex addiction is possible, but it has to fit the basic addiction model—basically, doing it in situations where it has catastrophic effects on your life and continuing to do it compulsively even as the rest of your life goes to shit in ways you really would rather it not, and never getting real satisfaction out of it.  Always chasing that next high.  And usually, chasing a high that’s as good your first, by upping the dosage in a pseudo-scientific controlled way. 

I suspect some “hebephiles” and the people who put ratings up on sex worker rating sites are trying to recapture a first, peak experience, focusing on getting a partner who is young and physically perfect and innocent and stupid to stimulate one’s jaded senses.  And to fit the model completely, this would be a behavior used to avoid feeling negative emotions and to take the place of being involved with and improving your life.  It takes the edge off without actually resolving anything, so you have to do it over and over again.

It can be hard to differentiate sex addiction from self-aggrandizing “rules don’t apply to me” behavior, however.  Probably someone who is “just” a narcissist will act this way about pretty much anything else that involves other human beings.  In my experience, narcissists do tend to indulge in actions to deal with negative feelings so there’s a similar emotional component, but they tend to be less fixed in their focus.

Comment #78: oldfeminist  on  12/01  at  02:29 AM

oldfeminist—actually, important criteria for “addiction” historically has been the body’s chemical dependence upon the substance. So things like cigarettes, alcohol, and drugs, which will produce objective physiological withdrawal symptoms, which means that treatment should involve some sort of conscious effort to wean the person from that dependence. When we throw in all these things that are impulse control and/or habituation problems (shopping, videogames, sex, etc), we’re diluting exactly what addiction really *means.*

As far as I know, no one has ever suffered DTs from not having an orgasm once a day.

Comment #79: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/01  at  10:42 AM

...now I’m trying to picture what the methodone clinic for sex addiction would look like.

Comment #80: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/01  at  10:43 AM

The whole idea of marajuana addiction is similarly discredited, Mighty Ponygirl.  Behavioral habituation, compulsion, impulse control != addiction.

That isn’t to say that such things can’t cause problems in your life, but that they are not chemical dependencies - they are behavioral issues.

Comment #81: Ms Kate  on  12/01  at  11:36 AM

Ms. Kate—precisely.

Comment #82: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/01  at  12:05 PM

 
  Mighty Ponygirl, from what I know from others, sex addict treatments tend to work like Alcoholics Anonymous but with a much lower “success” rate. Apparently, undergoing “treatment” for “sex addiction” have tendency to end up sleeping with each other.

Comment #83: Lee  on  12/01  at  12:10 PM

 
  Mighty Ponygirl, from what I know from others, sex addict treatments tend to work like Alcoholics Anonymous but with a much lower “success” rate. Apparently, undergoing “treatment” for “sex addiction” have tendency to end up sleeping with each other.

Comment #84: Lee  on  12/01  at  12:10 PM

...now I’m trying to picture what the methodone clinic for sex addiction would look like.

I’m pretty sure Lou Reed has written a song about that.

Comment #85: Egnu Cledge  on  12/01  at  12:29 PM

Lee, which is why the whole “Dennis Duffy seeking treatment for sex addiction” story arc on 30 Rock is so full of win. Hell, everything Dennis Duffy on 30 Rock is full of win.

“Don’t try to get back at me with hate sex, my support group is lousy with nymphos.”

Comment #86: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/01  at  01:00 PM

Mighty Ponygirl, if successful sex doesn’t have a strong physical effect on your body then you’re built differently from me and most other people.  You don’t have to ingest something to get high off it.  Drugs work because they mimic chemicals our bodies naturally generate on their own.  We wouldn’t have receptors for them if they didn’t.

Lee, NA meetings are typically great places to sell drugs.  And people undergoing treatment for other addictions often end up fucking each other, too, which can cause problems in their recovery.  Someone who’s coming off of years of abuse often just needs to focus on simple day to day stuff, because they’re going through a profound mental change.

AA/NA success rate isn’t really that high.  About ten percent I think.  There’s multiple reasons for that.

Real addiction is pretty tenacious.  Even those who eventually “get it” usually take years and several tries and relapses to get there, and for some it may not be an attainable goal.  It’s hard work and if you already have a shitty life it often doesn’t seem to have any point.

Then there are people who go into recovery under duress, who could benefit but are not motivated and don’t think they’re addicts.  AA/NA isn’t magic, it’s not a shot you can get to “fix” you.  Unless you actually apply yourself to changing your behavior, it’s not going to work.

But probably just as numerous or more numerous are the many who are put in treatment involuntarily who weren’t addicts in the first place.  The law doesn’t differentiate between use and abuse.  See:  Prohibition.  So they’re there because they were around drugs at some point when the police got involved, and treatment sounds better than jail.

Recovery is an industry that complements the incarceration industry and they’re always looking to expand.  So the number of people in those last two groups who don’t “recover” is pretty high.  The number of meetings filled with people who need slips signed bears that out. 

Taking a real but uncommon problem of sex addiction and turning it into a cash cow was probably unavoidable.  But that doesn’t mean there is no such thing.

Comment #87: oldfeminist  on  12/01  at  01:28 PM

@MightyPonygirl Except it seems at this point a distinction has been drawn between physiological dependency and psychological addiction. Plenty of medications can be taken as prescribed and still cause a certain level of dependency that necessitates titrating down instead of stopping cold. But this dependency can’t make someone an addict, because then everyone who takes opiates, benzos, SSRIs, etc for any length of time would be an addict.

Comment #88: Liz212  on  12/01  at  01:29 PM

“women who find themselves in heterosexual relationships where they have more sexual desire than their partners, whether temporarily or just in general, often take being rejected for sex or being put upon to initiate it most of the time very hard on their self-esteem.”

Neat description of the end of my last relationship. We had tears and self-esteem issues out of the fact that I didn’t want as much sex as her. She didn’t believe that and imagined either I thought she was unattractive or I was spending my energies elsewhere. I just wish we considered each other individual persons instead of casting upon each other some idea of what all men or all women are supposed to be and making judgments when the idea doesn’t fit.
Comment #1: Baruk

Sexual rejection from your life partner IS damaging to one’s self-esteem, whichever gender is the higher libido partner.  It’s also painful because it is seen by the higher desire party as an indication of lack of love.  I’ve come to conclude that a big imbalance in libidos between partners is just as much a problem as differences over money or how to deal with in-laws.  It’s almost an unbridgable gap in understanding. The lower desire partner has no idea why it bothers the higher desire partner so much, so they pick socialization as the culprit.  They just don’t understand the nature of sexual desire because they have so little of it.  Likewise, the higher desire partner can’t figure out why his/her partner has no desire and takes it personally.  It is a particularly thorny problem when the couple starts out well-matched but something happens to kill the libido of one of them, and meanwhile kids are born and nearly all aspects of their lives are intertwined. 

To ArielNY I haven’t experienced a relationship where polyamory is accepted equally on both sides, though I’m sure it exists.  But I also suspect that the acceptance of it by one of the sides changes with time and circumstance and throws the balance out of whack again.  Of the people I’ve known who had “open” marriages, they were only that way because one party loved the other enough to accept his/her partners having outside sex, not because both wanted to and did have multiple sexual partners.  When you’re ready to pick a mate, or decide to commit long-term to someone, you will be ready to give up the “right” to multiple sexual partners if that is what your chosen mate wants and expects, as almost all do.

 

Comment #89: MiddleageLiberal  on  12/01  at  02:08 PM

“but the existence of fetishes like that (cuckolding) demonstrate that the ready assumption that men are hornier than women by nature are far too simple-minded to describe our realities and our contexts”

Stop talking out of your ass!

Cuckolds are some of the horniest people around. What separates these from most vanilla folks is the trigger that turns them on. The idea that their wife could be banging anyone at anytime keeps the cuckold in a chronic state of arousal/suspense

Comment #90: sexsells  on  12/01  at  02:18 PM

@MiddleageLiberal

“When you’re ready to pick a mate, or decide to commit long-term to someone, you will be ready to give up the “right” to multiple sexual partners if that is what your chosen mate wants and expects, as almost all do.”

I’m not worried about the first few years of monogamy. I’m worried about the next phase when the excitement and sexual spark are gone, as more likely than not they will. And what you say about the open marriages you know sounds pretty credible (I think that’s the arrangement that Will Smith and Jada Pinkett have). The fact that these marriages are rarer than divorce and cheating suggests that they may not be an option for most people.

Is there a feminist approach to this? Live with integrity and risk divorce? Supress your sexual urges for eternity? Wait for social mores to change? I just can’t help but think that Victorian hypocrisy is sometimes the only pressure valve available.

Comment #91: ArielNYC  on  12/01  at  02:53 PM

Part of me doubts that its even biologically possible to be addicted to an action in the same way that people are addicted to a substance but I’m willing to accept scientific evidence to the contrary.

That’s because you aren’t thinking about dopamine. If a given action results in the release of dopamine, causing you to feel pleasure, it’s possible in some people to get addicted to that dopamine high. It’s not as easy as chemical addiction where the chemical can affect the brain directly, but it’s been demonstrated to happen. Sex, eating, gambling, extreme sports, skydiving, murder…pretty much anything can cause a dopamine high and some people can get addicted to that.

Note: this does not mean it excuses the behaviour. If someone gets a thrill out of cheating on their spouse, breaking into tall buildings to jump off them, or killing random strangers, they still made the decision to initiate the process which ended up getting them addicted, or in consciously choosing to feed their addiction.

Comment #92: KeithM  on  12/01  at  03:07 PM

Areil, as usual, you are ignoring the first answer you were given.  bananacat is absolutely on target.  If you are not up front about what you think you are going to do (lose/have no interest in being a monogamous past a certain point in time), you are a dishonest douche.  Full stop. 
I do know several people in open marriages.  Some have men who are more into it; some women; some both really get into it.  Some of them have rock solid multi-decade marriages; some can’t get to the point of marriage because their relationships fall apart within a year (or less); some have no interest in marriage or may actually be more part of a group than a couple.  Most of the ones who get divorced do so because one or the other cheats in some way (e.g. sneaking around with another undiscussed partner); otherwise, it is money issues or children issues or in-law issues like everyone else.  With them, the cheating is baffling except if viewed as a really wierd fetish (the high of the forbidden) and/or as a form of spousal abuse.

Comment #93: helen w. h.  on  12/01  at  05:39 PM

@helen

How many people honestly, truthly, really really believe they can be strictly monogamous for 40 years? And how many people enage in honest, open marriages? Finally, how many marriages don’t end in divorce and/or some form of cheating? From a rational perspective, virtually nobody can really commit to a monogamous marriage. And yet we hypocortically march on. I guess at the end of the day we’re all douches.

To clarify, I have no idea what my putative marriage feels like 10 years into it. Maybe love will conquer all and the idea of sexual variety would seem absurd. Maybe my libido will shrivel and die by then. Who knows. It’s not like I’ll be counting the minutes with a stopwatch waiting for the moment to stray. I’m just well aware my chances of beating marital ennui are no greater than the next schmo, and I’ve heard enough about the horrors of divorce to not want to face one.

Comment #94: ArielNYC  on  12/01  at  06:21 PM

Maybe love will conquer all and the idea of sexual variety would seem absurd.

It’s not that sexual variety becomes absurd. I mean, maybe for some people it does, but I think the vast majority of people continue to find other people beside their partner attractive and sometimes wonder “what if?” It’s that sexual variety becomes not so important any more that you would sacrifice everything that you get out of having a long-term partner just to get it.

Also, a lot of people who have been together for a long time find the sex somewhat less *sparky* (except when, every now and again, out of the blue, it is) but nonetheless better than it was early in the relationship because you know each other’s bodies so, so well. Certainly, sex with someone you’ve been with for 10 or 15 years is different from sex with an exciting new partner, but some of the differences are for the better. (Personally, I have had new partner sex that was a serious let down after all the intense attraction I felt for the person. The execution matters.)

I’m really, really, really, really not trying to convince you to marry and settle down. Maybe it’s not for you. That’s fine. Spare everyone the grief. But I think you have an unnecessarily pessimistic view of what sex in long-term relationships can be like.

Comment #95: chingona  on  12/01  at  07:42 PM

ArielNYC more and more people are trying open marriage.  It’s always hard to create and write a new cultural narrative, but in my mind it’s better than the alternative of lying and cheating. 

Sex in a long term relationship is indeed not like sex at the beginning. But other things are better. You have to risk one to get the other and for some it might not be worth it.

Is the person though, aside from (but also with) the sex worth that long term risk? That’s the question.

Comment #96: JulesATX  on  12/02  at  01:34 AM

ArielNYC more and more people are trying open marriage.  It’s always hard to create and write a new cultural narrative, but in my mind it’s better than the alternative of lying and cheating.

Sex in a long term relationship is indeed not like sex at the beginning. But other things are better. You have to risk one to get the other and for some it might not be worth it.

Is the person though, aside from (but also with) the sex worth that long term risk? That’s the question.

Comment #97: JulesATX  on  12/02  at  01:35 AM

If you promise to be monogamous awhen you question if you can you are a douche.  If you have the discussion ahead of time, voice your doubt, et al, you may end up not in a long term relationship that much of society thinks should be monogamous, but you wont be a douche (at least not for that).  As Jules said, and I paraphrase as I know literally dozens of couples currently in open relationships (to some degree or another), open relationships are a not insignificant subculture in the USA.  And the people who seem to have the most problem with it are the men who pushed for it and then can’t handle that their wives like a little strange as much as they do.

Comment #98: helen w. h.  on  12/02  at  08:59 AM

ArielNYC

I know way more cheating husbands than husbands in open marriages, so I know the former works quite well, but I do feel that honesty is the best policy.

And in keeping with honesty being the best policy… the most common husband’s issue with open marriage is not that his wife will want strange as much as he does, but that her ability to get strange will be a lot better than his. Women have much better access to sex than men and wives will have much, much easier time convincing a new guy to have sex with her and that her husband approves of this than the other way around. 

Sexual fairness is one the main reasons spouses swing as a couple.

 

Comment #99: sexsells  on  12/02  at  10:33 AM

@sexsells & Helen

That’s a very fair point. Probably my worst nightmare is an asymmetrical open marriage.

@helen
“If you promise to be monogamous awhen you question if you can you are a douche.”
Again, is there anyone out there who doesn’t doubt whether he or she can strictly commit forever, especially if they step out of the love high for a second and think it over? I’m not talking here about
having an intense sexuality that your partner should know about before getting into marriage. I don’t doubt that plenty of people with an average libido and an average capacity for monogamy stray and divorce.

Anyways, my point wasn’t to say that cheating is awesome and all spouses who engage in extra-marital affairs are totally justified in what they do. I have so sympathy for spouse spreferring to cheat they don’t want the other spouse to cheat as well, or because of some delight in humiliating the other spouse etc..  But in situations where open marriage is not an option and you’ve already invested too much in the marriage to dissolve it, it seems like an honest divorce is not necessarily preferable to a compromised marriage.

Sexsells, you admit that actual marriage as you know it is more likely to be characterized by cheating than an open arrangement. So why is honesty better? And why do spouses keep failing to opt for the better approach?

Comment #100: ArielNYC  on  12/02  at  11:33 AM

I completely and totally disagree with Ariel.  No suprise. 
An honest divorce strikes me as a way better thing than a compromised marriage, and I’ve been married for nearly 30 years now.  As I don’t consider open marriages nor any flexible arrangements agreed to by both parties as compromised, it comes down to the morality of lying.  I can see forgiving a minor lie to spare someone else’s feelings as being defensible, though I may disagree in a prticular case; lying to spare oneself…. Again, straightforward douche behavior, IMO.

Comment #101: helen w. h.  on  12/02  at  12:35 PM

@ helen

I didn’t say an open marriage was a compromised marriage. I specifically qualified for situations where an open marriage was not an option. What I meant by a compromised marriage was pretty much what a good chunk of marriages involve - infidelity. My point is that open marriages are a lot rarer than infidelity and divorce. And when an honest open marriage is not an option, discreet extrametial relations that allow you to maintain an otherwise happy marriage seems preferable to me to the alternatives, especially when you have kids.

You object that infidelity is dishonesty, and dishonesty is bad. I don’t disupute that. But you want to deal with absolutes that don’t reflect society as it is.  I’m just trying to assess the evil of infidelity vs the alternatives.

So if we accept that most people are not wired for monogamy, and the current social mores of marriage don’t fully reflect that,  what are the alternatives for most couples?  Do yout think divorce is 100% awesomeness? Especially when it tears a family apart? A spouse that honestly breaks a family in search for a short-lived thrill is a hero, whereas a hypocritical spouse with extramarital flings who is otherwise a good spouse and a parent is a villain?
As I said I’ve zero experience with marriage. I’m sincerely interested in the experiences of other people in this space who’ve had to deal with these issues.

Comment #102: ArielNYC  on  12/02  at  01:15 PM

@ArielNYC

Very few people get married with the intention of being unfaithful and most spouses didn’t expect that they would ever be in the situation to have to make the decision to cheat. Unfortunately there’s so much naivete and propaganda surrounding marital sex to which newlyweds subscribe that they don’t realize their ignorance will eventually come back to bite them in the ass. 

Most couples go into their commitment believing the opposite of the reality that is marriage and holding a lot of delusions. Delusions a couple will be ill prepared for when truths inevitably reveal themselves.

For instance…

How many of us are taught that love conquers all? Well that’s not true. The sexual satisfaction of your partner is one of your top responsibilities as a spouse. No one should demand fidelity and then be a crappy, unavailable fuck. But spouses do this all the time.


How many of us were taught that men and women have the same sex drive? Well that’s not true, either. Men are way hornier than women. And though it surely is not true of every couple, it’s true enough most of the time that a woman really needs to worry about her man getting enough sex 3 years in. Have you tried the quarter experiment?

How many of us are taught that sex should be mutual. Another lie! The best sexual relationships are reciprocal, not mutual. Everyone needs some unilateral stress relief sooner than later. The whole idea that both of you need to be in the mood at the same time is absurd! Why have we turned sex into a 3 legged race?

Which brings me to you. You’re not ignorant and you know the difficulties of marital fidelity, beforehand so you have an obligation to do the right thing and be honest. Besides do you really wanna spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder? Well, you don’t. I know lots of those guys and trust me when I tell you, you don’t wanna be them.

Comment #103: sexsells  on  12/02  at  01:33 PM

sexsells, if more men actually bothered to learn how to give women sexual pleasure, there would be way fewer instances of women “taking one for the team” which is what your formula of “men are hornier than women” and “the unhorny person should provide unilateral stress relief” results in.

Men aren’t any hornier than women.  Sex is just easier for them.  Men get off most of the time with just PIV sex, which is the default version of sex most people know.  Women don’t.  So men are more interested in “having sex” because it’s more likely to end up well for them, while women are much more often left unsatisfied. 

If that happens to you a few dozen times with the same partner, your interest level is going to lag.

Comment #104: oldfeminist  on  12/02  at  01:55 PM

Bingo!, oldfeminist:

The role of the husband as an effective and nondemanding sexual partner for his wife is obviously crucial in orgasmic dysfunction, especially secondary orgasmic dysfunction. In one sense, it can be argued that if a woman can produce orgasm for herself through masturbation but cannot have orgasm with her husband, he is the dysfunctional one. This relates to the old maxim that “there are no frigid women, only clumsy men.” In many cases, this is true: The woman’s sexual responsiveness is entirely normal, but her husband is quite inept as a lover. The principle of mutual responsibility, however, points out that such a woman has failed to train her husband to be an effective lover for her. This suggests a revision of the old maxim: “There are both frigid women and clumsy men, and they are usually married to each other.”

And in a civilized society, men would be able to learn such things other than through trial and error, and unlearning erroneous standards as oldfeminist outlines, preferably before they are 18 years old.

 

Comment #105: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/02  at  02:42 PM

@sexsells

I think we should be a bit more careful about not making one-sided generalizations. I’m sure there are many husbands out there who wish for more sex from their wives. But is the opposite not true as well?

I think it’s interesting to mention in this discussion that something like 2/3 of divorces are initiated by women, which I guess means that men have more to lose in divorce so they resort to cheating instead. And studies do show that men gain more from marriage than women, so really no suprise here.

Comment #106: ArielNYC  on  12/02  at  02:55 PM

@Dark Avenger

Are you saying that being inorgasmic and being frigid are one and the same? I’ve been with all sorts, both highly orgasmic and partnered-orgasm-challenged, but I wouldn’t call any of my partners frigid. I also can’t draw any correlation between how orgasmic a partner was and how eagerly or how well she pleased me. So experience tells me that communication is good, sexual chemistry is better.

Comment #107: ArielNYC  on  12/02  at  03:11 PM

@olffeminist

You’re knee is jerking. I have sex all the time without having an orgasm and my interest level doesn’t lag one bit. Go figure!

If a woman ends up “taking one for the team” its because of your formula, not mine.

Problem # 1: Your gender role assignments. It’s not a MAN’s job to learn how to give you sexual pleasure, it’s your job to teach him!

Problem #2: Your gender role assignments. You think women have the right to piggyback on male horniness, but they don’t.  In my house if you initiate sex, you get 1st crack at coming and you also get determine if you want to give the other person an orgasm or not.  If you don’t initiate, then you get what you get.

Problem #3: Your gender role assignments. Men are soo different that they only need intercourse to be satisfied, but somehow miraculously said men don’t have any different level of horniness as women. Yeah Right!

Comment #108: sexsells  on  12/02  at  03:15 PM

@ArielNYC

What I think is that we should be a bit more careful when reading other peoples comments. When I wrote this…

“And though it surely is not true of every couple” exactly what do you think I meant?

Hmmm. Maybe that there exist couples who aren’t the typical where the woman has the same or stronger sex drive as her husband?

Comment #109: sexsells  on  12/02  at  03:23 PM

Why is honesty better than cheating and lying? Because cheating and lying wind up hurting people terrible when found out (and things do get found out). Because cheating and lying means separating a part of yourself from your partner and that separation (a tiny kernal of distance) can grow into a big gap.
Because women hate it when you cheat and lie. And men hate it too. Because honesty is more of a challenge and humans shouldn’t miss out on challenges.

Why do people keep choosing the dishonest choice? Cause it’s easier. Cause humans are great at justifying their behavior if it gets them what they want. Because there are “rules” for cheating that don’t really exist on a global cultural level for honest and ethical nonmonogamy. Because for some people the thrill is in the lie and the cheat. Because people love cake and eating it too.

See this article at GMP, and the myriad comments (many of which are mine).
http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/maybe-men-cheat-because-they-love-their-partners/

Comment #110: JulesATX  on  12/02  at  03:32 PM

“There are both frigid women and clumsy men, and they are usually married to each other”
———————————————————————
“And in a civilized society, men would be able to learn such things other than through trial and error, and unlearning erroneous standards as oldfeminist outlines, preferably before they are 18 years old”

That fixes the clumsy men, but what about the frigid women? Oh that’s right…

Comment #111: sexsells  on  12/02  at  03:33 PM

How many of us were taught that men and women have the same sex drive? Well that’s not true, either. Men are way hornier than women.

1) Who was taught that men and women have the same sex drive? Everything in our culture teaches us that men want it more than women.

2) But, how do we know that men want it more than women? Everyone acts like this is a truism, but no one has bothered to explain how it escaped our (considerably more patriarchal) ancestors’ notice.

I know you acknowledged that it’s not always the man who wants it more, but I am familiar with enough cases in which the woman wants it more that there’s no way those women are rare exceptions to the rule. If men are more likely to want it more than women, it’s something like 60/40 or 70/30, not 90/10.

Comment #112: chingona  on  12/02  at  04:29 PM

“Everything in our culture teaches us that men want it more than women”.

You mean everything except the two 800lb gorillas of influence known as feminism and porn. Have you read the comments here? Have you used the internet lately?  The portrait of women as horny as rabbits/ cock crazy nymphos is prominently displayed.

“Everyone acts like this is a truism, but no one has bothered to explain how it escaped our (considerably more patriarchal) ancestors’ notice.”

Huh?

“If men are more likely to want it more than women, it’s something like 60/40 or 70/30, not 90/10”

I would bet on 80/20, but I wouldn’t really be surprised by 90/10. Please realize that marital intimacy is but a portion of a husband’s sexual outlet so a wife only knows half the story. I know guys here at work whose SO’s think they have lower sex drives when the brutal truth is the husband is horny as hell, but splittin time between his wife and a “hobby”.

Comment #113: sexsells  on  12/02  at  05:42 PM

You’re knee is jerking. I have sex all the time without having an orgasm and my interest level doesn’t lag one bit. Go figure!
Comment #108: sexsells on 12/02 at 03:15 PM

You apparently get it every time you initiate, according to your rules, and you can initiate at any time, so whoopee.

Problem # 1: Your gender role assignments. It’s not a MAN’s job to learn how to give you sexual pleasure, it’s your job to teach him!

Entitled assholery #1.  Because that assumes he wants to learn and doesn’t consider learning how a favor he does for me.  Why shouldn’t he have learned already?  Yes, there’s fine-tuning, but the basics (both physical and psychological) are not that difficult.

Problem #2: Your gender role assignments. You think women have the right to piggyback on male horniness, but they don’t.  In my house if you initiate sex, you get 1st crack at coming and you also get determine if you want to give the other person an orgasm or not.  If you don’t initiate, then you get what you get.

Entitled assholery #2.  You apparently think sexual satisfaction is legitimately claimed by the one yelling “shotgun” first.  Pardon me if I don’t want to play that game.

Problem #3: Your gender role assignments. Men are soo different that they only need intercourse to be satisfied, but somehow miraculously said men don’t have any different level of horniness as women. Yeah Right!

Entitled assholery #3.  Yes, having your penis massaged at a rhythm you choose is not any more directly gratifying than someone poking you in a hole that’s sorta near your clitoris at a rhythm they choose.

Comment #114: oldfeminist  on  12/02  at  06:18 PM

Are you saying that being inorgasmic and being frigid are one and the same?

Completely the opposite, ArielNYC, a woman who can orgasm by herself but cannot do so with a partner isn’t inorgasmic, and no two women have the exact same sexual response to the same stimuli. 

I also can’t draw any correlation between how orgasmic a partner was and how eagerly or how well she pleased me.

That’s because those are unrelated to each other, it’s odd that you’d think they were( or should be) related in some way in the first place.

 

Comment #115: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/02  at  06:32 PM

Sexsells is quite obviously a troll spouting evidence-free assertions, based on nothing but his sense of entitlement to have women pleasure him. Why not ban him?

Comment #116: LR  on  12/02  at  06:38 PM

“Everyone acts like this is a truism, but no one has bothered to explain how it escaped our (considerably more patriarchal) ancestors’ notice.”

Huh?

Read the thread. We’ve already covered this. But for most of European and Near Eastern history, women were viewed as the lustier sex, the ones that lured the more naturally chaste/rational/self-controlled men into sex.

What happened in the last 100 years to make men so goddam horny and women not?

And I thought everyone knew porn wasn’t real.

Comment #117: chingona  on  12/02  at  07:33 PM

“What happened in the last 100 years to make men so goddam horny and women not?”

Nothing happened!  I wrote “huh?” not because I didn’t get your reference. I wrote “huh?” because I did get your reference.

Only two lines after you invoke the “lusty woman” narrative, you begrudgingly admit the truth… “more like 60/40” and even were so generous to suggest “70/30”
So the question that needs to be asked by you is not “what happened”, but rather was your assessment of the supposed prevailing narrative correct. And the answer to that is “no”. “Wantonness” is not the most prominent nor long standing characterization of female sexuality!

“and I thought everyone knew porn wasn’t real.”

Well you thought wrong. Both feminism and porn influence… particularly those in the formative years.

Comment #118: sexsells  on  12/03  at  11:59 AM

I didn’t “begrudgingly admit the truth.” I was avoiding taking my anecdota and turning them into data. I said *if* men are the hornier sex, there certainly are *many* women who have higher sex drives than their male partners.

I have no idea what the actual split is, and I think there is enough individual variation that some truism like “everyone knows men are hornier” just doesn’t help us that much. You also haven’t presented any evidence that that is actually the case. I also find your claim that feminism has a lot of influence on our culture to be ... amusing.

Comment #119: chingona  on  12/03  at  01:35 PM

“I think there is enough individual variation”

AND why do you think that? I thought that you were against turning your anecdota into data.

Look, I don’t need a PHD to tell me that the average man is taller than the average woman. I have enough friends and make accurate enough observations that I can use common sense. The PHD’s are for the details as in 95% of women are shorter than a man of average height.

Men are hornier than women, sorry you are too ideologically insecure to accept this. Is “his being hornier” always true of every couple? No, but it’s true so often that women AND men should make a note of it as something that should understand about successful monogamy.

“I also find your claim that feminism has a lot of influence on our culture to be ... amusing.

Yeah, and I find your interpretation of “why” the Talmud marital sex rules exist…  to be amusing. They aren’t in place for the reasons you propose. But oh, well, I guess we’re even.

Comment #120: sexsells  on  12/03  at  03:24 PM

No, but it’s true so often that women AND men should make a note of it as something that should understand about successful monogamy.

How will noting this help a couple that is in the opposite situation?

Comment #121: chingona  on  12/03  at  04:26 PM

Let me put this another way: Even if it is 90/10, in what way is “Men are almost always hornier than women” more useful “knowledge” than “There’s a good chance that one of you - perhaps the man, but maybe not - will end up wanting sex more and the other will want sex less. You should think about how you’ll deal with that”?

Comment #122: chingona  on  12/03  at  05:06 PM

Ariel @ 102:  As someone who had a father who thought as you discribe, and had it blow up in his face when even after councilling and a separatrion he still continued having a ffairs, I can tell you that a clean divorce would have been a hell of a lot better for us kids than the fake happy marriage.  When one person is not agreeing to the extra activity, it is not a happy marriage.  I object to cheating as being dishonest, disrespectful of one’s partner, disrespectful of the person with whom one is doing the cheating, dangerous (due to possible medical issues and bringing another person into the equation whose stability, personality, motives, goals, etc are not likely well known nor aligned with the cheater).  Dishonesty is just the starting point.

Comment #123: helen w. h.  on  12/03  at  05:17 PM

“Let me put this another way: Even if it is 90/10, in what way is “Men are almost always hornier than women” more useful “knowledge” ...

It is more useful in the same way that oldfeminist’s comment (sex is easier for men) is more useful than something inert and inaccessible like “sex is individual”. The former posits direction, reference, efficiency, and solution into the discussion whereas the latter simply does not. A smart, probabilistic observation about true sex difference is not the same as gender essentialism.

Of course the fact that Amanda saw fit to use the phrase “male privilege” in a post against gender essentialism shows she doesn’t understand this distinction. “Are you PMS’ing?” is an example of gender essentialism. “Women are less horny than men” is not. It’s simply a practical utterance.

Now here is a question for you…

in what way is “male privilege” more useful “knowledge” than “There’s a good chance that one of you - perhaps the man, but maybe not - will have privilege. You should think about how you’ll deal with that”?

Comment #124: sexsells  on  12/04  at  08:02 AM

“A smart, probabilistic observation about true sex difference is not the same as gender essentialism.”

Unfortunately your observation was neither smart nor probabilistic. “Women are less horny than men” is an absolute statement, and many people know of many counterexamples so it just ends up looking stupid.

Privilege is the culture-bound assumption that a particular kind of person is the norm.  The word comes from the privilege of not having to fight for your point of view or needs to be seen, because they are front and center in everyone’s mind.  No one’s going to forget them.  So the chance that a woman in US culture is privileged because she’s a woman is extremely unlikely, since the general expectation is that men’s needs, interests, and lives are the norm and women work around that.

There are multiple kinds of privileges.  But if you understand privilege that will be obvious to you.  It is a powerful concept in that regard.

Comment #125: oldfeminist  on  12/04  at  03:10 PM

“Women are less horny than men” is an absolute statement, and many people know of many counterexamples so it just ends up looking stupid.

Says that woman that wrote “sex is easier for men”. I guess there are no counter examples to your statement. Huh? You feeling stupid or like a hypocrite?

So the chance that a woman in US culture is privileged because she’s a woman is extremely unlikely

Why because you said so? Read this princess. Maybe you’ll learn something.

http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/06/08/female-privilege/

Male privilege is gender essentialism “women are less hornier than men” and “sex is easier for men” is not.

Comment #126: sexsells  on  12/04  at  06:24 PM

sexsells, I wrote, “Men get off most of the time with just PIV sex, which is the default version of sex most people know.  Women don’t.” 

Read this princess.

Fuck off frog.

Comment #127: oldfeminist  on  12/04  at  09:25 PM

Good god you’re confused! If you thought I was a frog you should be trying to kiss me not tell me to ‘fuck off’, princess.

And this is what you actually wrote… “Men aren’t any hornier than women.  Sex is just easier for them. ”

so at best you’re guilty of two generalizations… at worst we got two examples of gender essentialism. Either way I rest my case.

Comment #128: sexsells  on  12/05  at  09:47 AM

Frogs apparently can’t read entire comments. 

Fuck off, frog.  I’m not a princess.

Comment #129: oldfeminist  on  12/05  at  10:06 AM

The frog was obvious in nature back about comment two….

Comment #130: helen w. h.  on  12/05  at  10:31 AM

Oh look. The princess has a handmaid.

Comment #131: sexsells  on  12/05  at  04:25 PM

Does the frog have a point, or is he really a toad?

Comment #132: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  12/05  at  04:44 PM
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