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Next entry: “Man pants” screwing up everything for everyone Previous entry: Tenthers and the problem of violence against women

Sex work isn’t immune to urban legends

Lindsay Beyerstein has been doing a kick ass job as of late researching and reporting on the battle over mandated condom use in straight porn in California (it’s already standard in gay porn).  It’s a story that has gotten some attention as yet another actor has tested positive for HIV and has likely exposed many women—-often you can expose dozens—-in the time since he became positive and turned up a positive test.  It’s hard to get people to care about this issue in more than a cursory way, in part because sex workers are still treated like they’re not worthy of full human rights and in part because the public has become somewhat blase about HIV in general.  It’s an old story by now.  The fact that there is a drug cocktail that is effective in allowing people who would have perished in short order back in the day to live long, productive lives has put the public in a place where they forget how deadly AIDS really is.  But 11,000 people die of AIDS in the U.S. alone every year, and let’s face it, having to take that drug cocktail for the rest of your life is no picnic and not that easy to do.  Availability is also dependent on many factors.  Despite the title “porn star”, most porn actors don’t make a lot of money and they are pushed out of the business at a relatively young age, and subsequently their access to regular health care is limited, to say the least.  If you believe, as I do, that sex workers are full human beings deserving of the same consideration as everyone else, this is nothing to be blase about.

I recommend reading Lindsay’s coverage of this.  The basic theme is that California OSHA already has regulations that should require universal condom use in porn (basically the same ones that require nurses to wear gloves), and the straight porn industry aggressively flouts the law.  Their excuse is that they do regular testing.  But as this recent example shows, you can take a test, get infected, and expose dozens of people before your next test.  There is more than a little wishful thinking going on here.  The reason that they give for not wanting to use condoms is they think it’s bad for business, but I think that’s a fear that has gotten reaffirmed so much that it’s grown larger in people’s minds than it is in reality.  As Lindsay documents, some countries have mandated condom use in porn and it hasn’t hurt business, and gay porn uses condoms without seeing any loss in profit.  From her point of view—-and I agree—-good liberals don’t put the profit concerns of businesses above basic safety precautions for workers.  It dents profits on construction sites to require safety gear—-owners have to buy the gear and enforce use of it, all of which costs money that they could otherwise pocket—-but so what?  Remember, these are human lives.  Even if porn took a minor ding on the profits because of condoms, I can’t care.  I don’t see why they get special status to complain about the cost of doing business that liberals rightly criticize when it’s anyone not making porn.

Anyway, all this is set-up to what is a strange phenomenon in all of this—-an urban legend that trips off the lips of many of porn’s spokespeople with surprising regularity.  The idea is that condoms somehow make it easier to transmit HIV.  Lindsay documents it:

As far as I can tell the notion that condoms are in any way counterproductive is pure conjecture based on anecdotes from people with a financial stake in the status quo. The argument seems to have originated with industry insider Ernest Greene and his wife, porn legend Nina Hartley. They claim that porn sex is so rough and prolonged that condoms cause more abrasions than unprotected sex. I couldn’t find any independent confirmation of that.

Lindsay explains a few reasons why this can’t be true.  I’ll add that if gay porn can go 100% condom without this complaint, something is up.  And why is the right to work someone’s body until they’re raw and bleeding sacrosanct?  Maybe OSHA needs to monitor porn sets for overtime abuses, too. 

But what really struck me about this claim was that it immediately put me in mind of another urban legend that people rely on to avoid basic safety measures.  It was more common in the days when seat belt laws were still controversial, but you occasionally still hear it: That seat belts are actually dangerous, because they “trap” you in a car.  This myth is 100% bullshit, as traffic fatalities have been in a freefall since seat belts became mandatory and cars even started to beep at you if you don’t use them.  The myth is a purely self-serving one that allows the person spouting it to feel like they’re smarter and more in control than they are, while also validating the bad behavior they wish to engage in.

The “condoms make HIV worse” argument sounds the same to my ears—-substituting an elaborate excuse that sounds plausible for scientific evidence.  I’d like to think smart feminist bloggers wouldn’t write articles arguing, “The research shows seat belts reduce traffic fatalities, but drivers themselves say that they are afraid seat belts will ‘trap’ them in their cars.  We should take this seriously, because drivers are the ones out there doing the driving.”  If they did, you’d see the problem with their assertion, which leaves no room for the tendency of human beings to rationalize their choices, and instead treats human beings as what they’re not, which are purely rational decision-makers.


So why do I see smart feminist bloggers spouting this porn industry urban legend uncritically?  Tracy Clark-Flory spouted it, rationalizing that they don’t do it like “normal” folks and so their concerns are completely different.  Sady Doyle trotted it out, too.  (I just have to say that I can’t imagine phrases like “industry self-regulation” would appear without a shit ton of skepticism if the industry putting its workers in danger was, say, the coal mining industry or even the telephone operator industry.)  The rationale is that some sex workers are willing to spout this urban legend, and we should listen to them.  I agree that their opinion is important and needs to be included heavily in all analysis.  But there’s nothing about getting paid to have sex that makes you suddenly a person that’s above the ascientific thinking and irrationality that plagues all other people.

As Lindsay notes, marathon sex, with or without condoms, causes abrasions that can make HIV transmission easier, period.  This only increases the need to use condoms.  But beyond just the logical assessment of the claim on its own merits, is there scientific evidence that certain populations that have a lot of heavy duty sex in a short period of time have higher transmission rates for HIV if they use condoms?  Do other populations that have a lot of this kind of sex find that condom use is impossible?

Short answer: No, and in fact the evidence proves the opposite of Hartley’s claim.

Gay porn is just one example.  Even though gay actors work the same kind of hours that straight actors do—-and are probably doing more anal per hour, frankly—-they somehow magically manage to use condoms.  But it’s not just porn actors who have that amount of sex in any given day.  In fact, there are a lot of people out there who probably have more sex and more punishing sex in the course of their life as sex workers.  Take prostitutes that live in poverty and really have to scramble to make money when they get paid so little per encounter.  For instance, I hope I don’t have to explain to you why actual prostitutes working in Thailand and Cambodia might have a greater claim to the idea of physically punishing amounts of sex in the course of a work day.  I bring those countries up, because they implemented mandatory condom programs.  In Hartley’s claim that regular condom use raises the HIV rate for people who fuck for a living, then we should have seen this program raise the HIV transmission rate in Thailand and Cambodia.  In reality, the rate of HIV transmission was cut in half in Thailand, and it reduced the percentage of sex workers who were HIV positive from 44% in 1998 to 8% in 2003 in Cambodia. 

The stalwart belief that condom use ruins the fantasy disturbs me to no end.  Why?  Is it because the sense that the actors onscreen are putting their lives at risk is part of the pleasure for the audience?  If it’s just about the basic pleasure in seeing people fuck on screen, then condom use shouldn’t matter—-the parts are all working the same way even without a condom.  If it’s because condoms deaden the sensation, well, the viewing audience is presumably feeling their own hands most of the time, so that really doesn’t matter.  It’s hard to shake the creepy feeling that the porn industry believes that their job is not just to fuck on camera, but to cater to the kind of men who would actually think that seeing actors on screen protected by a condom is a turnoff.  And if a guy says to me that it’s a major turn off to see a woman on screen playing safe, frankly, I’m going to have an extremely low opinion of his feelings towards women, and think that porn appeals to him on more than a strictly sexual level.  Frankly, I think those guys are such good porn customers that the industry shouldn’t really worry that they’ll give up the product entirely because of a small change in safety standards. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:29 AM • (118) Comments

“The idea is that condoms somehow make it easier to transmit HIV.”

What. The. Fuck. I thought it was only the religious nutjobs who would’ve used an argument like this.

The porn industry probably isn’t too concerned about HIV because it was only women that the guy infected, right? And who cares about them anyway, right?

Comment #1: Mark  on  10/19  at  11:45 AM

The mainstream porn producers need their performers to spray that ejaculate all over those women or else… or else… or else something something about underground porn getting more attention, and that somehow makes maintaining an unsafe work environment okay somehow possibly and something.  And everyone knows the risks and blah blah blah.

And the NFL should stop wearing helmets because Jackass made $50M this weekend.

Make condom use mandatory.  It makes too much sense.

And I feel good knowing that there are some stupid myths about porn that I’ve managed to miss.  Condoms make abrasions more likely?  With the amount of off-screen lubrication going on in porn, I find that not only absurd but laughably so.  At least I would if it wasn’t being used to justify dangerous sex.

Comment #2: 3letterjon  on  10/19  at  11:46 AM

The “condoms make HIV worse” argument sounds the same to my ears—-substituting an elaborate excuse that sounds plausible for scientific evidence.  I’d like to think smart feminist bloggers wouldn’t write articles arguing, “The research shows seat belts reduce traffic fatalities, but drivers themselves say that they are afraid seat belts will ‘trap’ them in their cars.  We should take this seriously, because drivers are the ones out there doing the driving.” If they did, you’d see the problem with their assertion, which leaves no room for the tendency of human beings to rationalize their choices, and instead treats human beings as what they’re not, which are purely rational decision-makers.


This is a(nother) good illustration of one of the chief fallacies behind conservatism-libertarianism: The idea that what’s in someone’s best interest is what THEY THINK is in their best interest. You can point out hundreds of examples from real life to prove that these things are not the same, but the myth continues.

Comment #3: RickMassimo  on  10/19  at  12:00 PM

This is somewhat tangential, but I would love to see condom use required in porn simply because porn has such a large influence on the sexual behaviors of the population, especially among young people.  Porn has already started trends of shaving genitals and women doing things that vary from merely boring to outright painful that they weren’t expected to do just a few decades ago.  I think condom use in porn would dramatically increase condom use in “real life” and that would be fantastic.

Comment #4: bananacat  on  10/19  at  12:06 PM

From what I read, the film equivalent of photoshop can visually erase the condom, so it appears none was used.

Howsomever, that would be cheating and no women would be abused, so who knows how many sick fucks that would turn off?

This is by no means the first outbreak of AIDS in straight porndom, and the same lies get trotted out each go round.

Face it: although women are a requirement in straight porn, they’re just not valued.

Comment #5: judybrowni  on  10/19  at  12:11 PM

Some other industry objections to mandated condom use are that it would prevent awareness of an outbreak, as well as lead to further governmental restrictions on porn performance.  As it stands, while some argue that porn actors are subject to state OSHA regs, the argument made by the industry is that the actors are performers and therefore exempt from what are considered office and general worker requirements.  In addition, if condoms are mandated under regulations, likewise porn studios would be prohibited from asking about HIV status or preventing HIV positive performers from working.  I am not sure of the truth of these claims, or rather how they’d be ruled on in court, but I have heard them often enough that I think it’s worth repeating them here from their perspective.

In addition, I am definitely sympathetic to the demand that porn should not be policed by government, whether from the right or the left.  It’s certainly the target of any number of groups who want to clean up society by shutting it down in one way or another.  Any ability to do so will be exploited by those who are in opposition to porn.

Also, responding to judybrowni, it’s clear to just about everyone that female performers in porn are far more valued in straight porn than male performers.  Witness the difference in money paid and billing given.  And accompanying fame, whatever that is worth.

Comment #6: Skipjack  on  10/19  at  12:13 PM

As it stands, while some argue that porn actors are subject to state OSHA regs, the argument made by the industry is that the actors are performers and therefore exempt from what are considered office and general worker requirements.

Why should performers be exempt from OSHA regulations?  I think you need another premise in there before you can even try to draw that conclusion.

it’s clear to just about everyone that female performers in porn are far more valued in straight porn than male performers.  Witness the difference in money paid and billing given.  And accompanying fame, whatever that is worth.

Women in porn are paid more because the women face far greater risks than men, and also the physical standards are much higher.  Both of these factors mean that the potential pool of women to draw from is a lot smaller and they have to pay more to convince women to do it.  And of course women get more billing because straight porn is primarily made for and marketed to straight men, who don’t really care about other men in the porn who basically act as placeholders.  Women in porn are treated like props and they have to pay more to make women tolerate it.  I can’t believe I even have to explain these basic concepts to you.

I am definitely sympathetic to the demand that porn should not be policed by government, whether from the right or the left.

I am sympathetic to the demand that employers can not subject their employees to life-threatening situations when there is a simple and cheap alternative.  I don’t care what industry it is or who else is objecting to the industry as a whole.  I care about the safety of workers, not the porn itself.  It’s really a shame that you want to allow performers to work in dangerous conditions just so you can rebel against the people who don’t like porn in general.

Comment #7: bananacat  on  10/19  at  12:25 PM

@catgirl Word on all counts.

Comment #8: JulesAboutTown  on  10/19  at  12:31 PM

Skipjack, I think you’re looking for Yglesias’s blog, with that kind of awesomely bad logic. “Some people want bad regulations, thus all new regulations are bad awful wrong. But for GOOD reasons, really!” Amazingly, I imagine a condom law could, you know, continue to require HIV testing. And similarly, production companies could require non-contagious, healthy performers because contagious, not-healthy performers would put their co-workers in danger. Which we all agree is bad and wrong, right? Right?

And thirded, catgirl.

Comment #9: the duck-billed placelot  on  10/19  at  12:42 PM

it’s clear to just about everyone that female performers in porn are far more valued in straight porn than male performers.  Witness the difference in money paid and billing given.  And accompanying fame, whatever that is worth.

Not all female performers in porn are Tera Patrick. Not all porn movies are made by Vivid. There’s the lower end of professionally made porn, where no one gets billing. I used to work at a shop that sold porn, and I remember the video covers, which were covered with small stills of the action inside, very clearly. A lot of the women looked like drug addicts. None looked happy. Some had tears in their eyes. I doubt they got paid much.

Comment #10: Planet of the Blue Monkeys  on  10/19  at  12:45 PM

I don’t see any sensible reason why the porn industry couldn’t mandate condom use and regular testing. Healthcare workers are required to wear gloves, but also have to get tested regularly for serious diseases they could get & spread in the course of work (TB, at least, where I live). I don’t think anyone could argue that condom-protected sex is so safe that HIV status becomes a purely private issue in porn, and there’s already the precedent for testing + protection from nursing.

Also, to point a finger at the obvious here: testing isn’t prevention. Testing reduces the spread of HIV, if people stop working as soon as they test positive. But it didn’t stop that guy from getting HIV, and then losing his job, in the first place. It just puts all the onus on actors to not get infected, despite being denied protective gear on the clock. I hate the insinuation that treating porn (or sex work in general) like any other industry is somehow unfair or sex-negative. Giving sex workers the same rights as anyone else is exactly the way to de-stigmatize their work, make it safer, and set better cultural expectations for how people treat each other (especially women) in sex.

Comment #11: impossibletospell  on  10/19  at  12:51 PM

I avoid discussions on sex work because they tend to break into sides (exploited victim vs. empowered sexual priestess) and both are mired in urban legends. When it comes to disease, I hear a lot of cockamamie statistics such as: prostitutes’ STD rates are lower than the general population because of regular testing. But finding out one has HPV, herpes or HIV doesn’t magically make it go away and as Amanda notes, there is a window of opportunity between infection and testing. Also, assuming all sex workers are responsible enough to test, and would definitely relinquish all income the moment they test positive for anything, is just naive. But bring this up and you’re “sex-negative.”

I do realize there’s a lot of wear and tear involved in sex work that regular sex doesn’t involve (because you can just stop if it gets uncomfortable.) My friend was a peep show girl who had to finger herself a lot and even with lube, she said by the end of a shift she would be raw sometimes. Most of the girls tried to fake out the customers for this reason. I can’t even imagine what’s involved in shooting a porn scene. But given the high number of partners, and the fact that the performers still have sex in their personal lives with random people, the idea of barebacking makes my blood run cold. If condom use actually does lead to abrasions, then shoot shorter scenes. It’s not your average porn is a cinematic masterpiece.

Comment #12: Veronica  on  10/19  at  01:12 PM

Unions unions unions UNIONS unions unions. Actors and performers need unions - even when you’re acting with your pants on, the opportunities for exploitation in high-pressure media jobs are rampant, and if you don’t make the big bucks you need someone who will look out for your retirement when you’ve lost your screen appeal. In the absence of collective organization, external regulation for basic health and safety standards will have to do. Regulating the adult film industry like any other industry is a step towards recognizing it as a normal part of the economy, not towards eliminating it. (Regulating adult films is different from regulating the industry, for starters).

The idea that porn consumers will be turned off by not seeing someone’s life endangered for pay is so icky that I don’t want to go anywhere near it if possible.

Comment #13: purpleshoes  on  10/19  at  01:13 PM

porn has such a large influence on the sexual behaviors of the population, especially among young people.

Excellent point.

Comment #14: Richard Goblin  on  10/19  at  01:16 PM

It’s obvious that someone has a hard-on for Yglasias, who often points out bad regulations as reasons for lefties to support removing some regulations.

Of course, to say his argument that some regulations are bad ergo we should have none is the same as saying some regulations are good, ergo we shouldn’t look askance at bad regulations.

In this case, the regulations are on the books but the industry has managed to win in courts; exempting them from regulation.  That would be an example of Yglasias’s ‘this regulation isn’t doing something good, and should be fixed’ category; not an reason to say Yglasias wants to get rid of regulation.

Ugh.  I don’t agree with his high-density slant; as I’ve grown up in ‘the sticks’ - but I agree that surface parking lots waste urban space.

Comment #15: Crissa  on  10/19  at  01:17 PM

There are several professions that are allowed to screen their workers with medical tests for drug use or illnesses.  My daughter is regularly screened for TB and Hep due to the lab she where she works. 

I think it is more a case of the porn industry being convensional than anything else.  Condom use is lower in the general population than it should be.  If the viewers are wanting to imagine that the action is them within their regular relationship (turned up sexual adventure-wise perhaps) and they don’t use condoms, it might cause a momentary “Huh?” reaction.  I don’t think it would impact usage though.  Besides, how could they not see the advantage of creating a new market for novelty condoms unless they have no imagination (are being convesional, in other words)?

Comment #16: helen w. h.  on  10/19  at  01:17 PM

...Err, and that’s no reason to rag on Yglasias that he wants everything to be deregulated.  Especially when that isn’t his stance.

Comment #17: Crissa  on  10/19  at  01:18 PM

Also, I would like to point out that all-ages media gets subsidies for sneaking in messages for public health, and it would be hilarious if adult films started racking up the same. “Oh, Fed-ex man, take me now!” “Of course, you dirty creature, but this package has to be… safely wrapped for delivery.” This message sponsored by the California Coalition to Prevent Teen Pregnancy.

Comment #18: purpleshoes  on  10/19  at  01:21 PM

I don’t understand why sex workers are so different from any other type of employee that they shouldn’t be subject to ordinary safety regulations.

Anyways, the gap between the gay industry and the straight industry really tells you all you need to know about this.  It’s about getting women infected with HIV.  That’s it.

Comment #19: Punditus Maximus  on  10/19  at  01:25 PM

Unions unions unions UNIONS unions unions.

The best advice of all.  When you bargain collectively you have more power.  Everyone who doesn’t own the business should have a union.  Even if you have the best regs on the book, you should still have a union.

Comment #20: Richard Goblin  on  10/19  at  01:28 PM

Skipjack, there’s a simple enough solution to condoms preventing awareness of an outbreak (though I’m not sure how that would come about, as the majority of STIs are asymptomatic during the incubation stage, including HIV). Mandate condoms _and_ testing. Problem solved.

Comment #21: katydid  on  10/19  at  01:45 PM

The illogic of the “more abrasions” argument is stunning.  It’s a kind of reverse petitio principii, where you’re assuming the opposite of your conclusion to prove your conclusion.

Yes, you will be more exposed to getting HIV from an infected partner if you have abrasions.

IF YOU’RE NOT WEARING A CONDOM.

If you are wearing a condom, the fluids that carry HIV won’t get on your abrasions.

Comment #22: oldfeminist  on  10/19  at  01:49 PM

Oldfeminist, I know, right? Also, I hope they are already using the most industrial-strength lube in the world in giant giant bottles, because if you talk to sex workers, generally they say the best way to keep condoms from breaking (this is from some interviews with sex workers in Amsterdam I read for school) is high-quality lubricant.

Comment #23: purpleshoes  on  10/19  at  01:52 PM

It’s possible that part of the reason some people are saying condoms increase the risk of HIV is that the spermicide nonoxynol-9 CAN increase the risk of HIV transmission in some cases.  A lot of people are sensitive to it (and using it more often makes it more likely that a person will become sensitized), and that means it irritates their membranes and makes virus transmission more likely.  20 years ago, some studies found that n-9 killed some HIV in a petri dish, and there was a push to make all condoms pre-lubricated with the stuff.  So, yeah…a reasonable person might have seen it as a problem back then.

Nowadays, it’s easy to get unlubricated condoms and add lube that doesn’t contain irritants.  That’s what most people do.  (If a woman specifically wants a spermicide, she can look for one she, personally, doesn’t find irritating.)  I don’t know why this argument is relying on evidence from 15 or 20 years ago, when so much has changed, and when so many people on both sides are young.

I don’t know how much “abstinence based education” affects this discussion.  The lies about condoms not working, or condoms being dangerous, are incredibly pervasive.  Young people can casually accept background information their textbooks present as factual, and their teachers seem to take for granted, even when they grow up to reject the instructions about how to behave.

Comment #24: Adrian  on  10/19  at  02:00 PM

Not only would I mandate condom use in porn for public health reasons, if it was possible I’d mandate that porn depict the actual putting on the condom. It might possibly be the best way to teach people how to properly put on a condom besides them trying to figure out themselves. Sex education in school could also teach this but I’m working under the assumption that more than a few people wouldn’t pay attention in the context of sex education in school because a lot of people just don’t like school. They will observe more in porn though.

    The urban legends that the porn industry is using to justify not mandating putting on condoms are just sad. I have relatives who would be alive today if they used condoms.

Comment #25: Lee  on  10/19  at  02:10 PM

n addition, if condoms are mandated under regulations, likewise porn studios would be prohibited from asking about HIV status or preventing HIV positive performers from working.

Actually, they’re already in violation of the laws that make it illegal to use HIV status as a discrimination tool in employment.  Mandated condoms doesn’t suddenly make the pre-existing regulations that indicate that you can’t ask about someone’s HIV status before hiring suddenly enforceable.  The only reason testing and asking is going on now is no one is protesting it.  If they want to continue to do so, they could get away with it.

Comment #26: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/19  at  02:16 PM

I’m not trying to disagree with any of the reasons put forth for condom use, and I think the condoms cause abrasions idea is crazy (and I’ve never heard it before) but if I’m watching porn, which I’m usually not, I’m pretty much going to say “ew” and turn it off if they use condoms. I’m not trying to say this is a good reason for the industry not to, but I don’t imagine I’m the only one who would turn it off.

The ads on your site are urging me to “find my Thai beauty today” from ThaiLoveLinks.com.

Comment #27: felagund  on  10/19  at  02:18 PM

@ Crissa - Yglesias recently had some very glib posts about regulation of skilled/semi-skilled professions, arguing that barbers did not need to be regulated because he doesn’t find shaving heads very difficult. Yglesias has some good and some bad stuff, but the ‘don’t regulate workers to protect (group of people), it hurts prices/profits/and maybe even the workers!!1!’ just called to mind that series of staunch let-the-businesses-figure-it-out position, in which he explicitly argued against government regulation of a group that handles dangerous tools/chemicals. (I read balloon-juice/pandagon with my coffee, and sometimes it overlaps in my commenting, obviously.)

Comment #28: the duck-billed placelot  on  10/19  at  02:18 PM

My friend was a peep show girl who had to finger herself a lot and even with lube, she said by the end of a shift she would be raw sometimes.

In a lot of Thai brothels, the women have to shove balls, silly objects, small animals, and even razor blades (sharp side in, but still there’s accidents) into their vaginas as part of the show, and then have sex with customers.  Despite this serious abuse of the delicate skin in the vagina, the HIV rates went down when condom use was mandated.  The fact that there’s more rubbing is just more of an argument for barriers.  I know you agree—-I’m not disagreeing.  Just adding some details.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/19  at  02:22 PM

Unions unions unions UNIONS unions unions. Actors and performers need unions - even when you’re acting with your pants on, the opportunities for exploitation in high-pressure media jobs are rampant, and if you don’t make the big bucks you need someone who will look out for your retirement when you’ve lost your screen appeal. In the absence of collective organization, external regulation for basic health and safety standards will have to do.

Both/and blog. 

Porn has an extremely high turnover rate.  It’s nice to believe unions are the solution, but they tend to work better in places where the workers are around long enough to organize.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/19  at  02:23 PM

It’s possible that part of the reason some people are saying condoms increase the risk of HIV is that the spermicide nonoxynol-9 CAN increase the risk of HIV transmission in some cases.

If they are, then it’s a disingenuous argument at best.  Spermicide hasn’t been standard in condoms in so long that I forget when it was last there.  Basically, as soon as it was revealed it was counterproductive, it was taken out.  I doubt the government even had to strong arm the condom industry on this.  Trojan, at least, is actually a pretty socially responsible company, plus there’s no benefit to them to have an extra step in production anyway. 

I’m 33 years old, and I don’t ever recall a time when your basic standard condom had spermicide in it.  Maybe when I was really young and don’t remember, but for much of my life, it seems they are spermicide-free.

Comment #31: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/19  at  02:32 PM

the duck-billed placelot at 28: I’d read Yglesias’s posts on why barbers and other hair related specialists shouldn’t be licensed. He never really addressed one of the main reasonings behind the licensing, public health. That is to ensure that barbers and beauticians know how to properly use and maintain potentially dangerous equipment and chemicals and keep everything sanitary. Without licensing, more people would go into the barbering/beauty saloon business. Much fewer would actually bother to learn anything about properly using and maintaing their chemicals and tools and proper sanitation.

  Don’t get me into his argument for getting rid of the licensing of lawyers, which is very bad and will only lead to even more incompetent lawyering and a slower court system because the courts will have to guide a lot of not that skilled people posing as lawyers through the entire process. Courts don’t really like it when people decide to represent themselves pro se for this reason.

Comment #32: Lee  on  10/19  at  02:32 PM

“but if I’m watching porn, which I’m usually not, I’m pretty much going to say “ew” and turn it off if they use condoms.”

...really?  Why?  I’m having difficulty imagining a scenario in which a person is okay with watching strangers fuck but suddenly gets grossed out because the strangers they’re watching fuck decide to use protection.  Especially given the prevalence in porn of the narrative that the characters have only just met or are involved with multiple partners.

Comment #33: preying mantis  on  10/19  at  02:35 PM

Well, fela, I’m actually turned off by seeing porn without condoms.  I’m distracted by my concern for their health.  I’m alarmed that anyone would require porn actors to put themselves in danger for a fantasy—-what is the specific fantasy?  Is catching the clap or HIV erotic to you?  The threat of pregnancy?

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/19  at  02:35 PM

Amanda, and even if collective organization were already happening, it’s usually next to useless without legislative labor protections. The both and the and come built right in. Abusive labor conditions lead to high turnover which helps to entrench abusive labor conditions - industries where that’s the case tend to fight any kind of labor protections tooth and nail, because once things start to get a little better, I think it tends to start breaking the cycle of disposable labor.

Comment #35: purpleshoes  on  10/19  at  02:50 PM

But with condoms the fictional logistics of the facial would be much more complicated.

Yep, it is sad and amazing what counterfactuals people will grasp at to keep doing things the way they’re doing them.

Comment #36: paul  on  10/19  at  02:52 PM

Are condoms really that noticeable in porn? I am not a huge consumer of the genre, but it seems like you would really have to be looking to notice a condom.

Furthermore, if someone’s boner is really so delicate as to faint at the sight of that little role of latex at the base of a performer’s cock, there is already sooooo much porn in existance that that person can watch a different old porn everyday for the rest of his life and never have to watch somethng twice, so I am sure such dudes will be fine.

Comment #37: alysia  on  10/19  at  02:52 PM

“Are condoms really that noticeable in porn? I am not a huge consumer of the genre, but it seems like you would really have to be looking to notice a condom.”

In the genres that pretend to have a plot, I suppose there wouldn’t be much of a way around either putting it on on-camera or cutting out the actor putting it on, which might be difficult if they’re piling all the extra angles onto the DVD as extras.  Or! They could use female condoms, which would avoid all that, because they can be inserted ahead of time, but might be more noticeable during oral scenes.

Of course, realistically, it’s a condom, not a birdcatcher tarantula.  There are only so many people the hint of condom is going to send screaming away from porn.

Comment #38: preying mantis  on  10/19  at  03:01 PM

The distinction between worker and performer is what the studios are trying to underline, I believe.  It might be a false distinction to a court, but that hasn’t been determined.  Saying the industry as a whole is in clear violation of the law seems a bit sweeping, and easily put to the test by now.

I’m going by a hazy recollection of this, so please bear with me, but my understanding is that actors are different than other kinds of workers.  This is why it is possible to discriminate against them by age or by race or by sex when you are considering them for a role.  And so the idea that they are not like other workers is what keeps the industry from being forced to use condoms, in that they are not sex workers but performers, which is what is the legal foundation of their work in the first place, or they could be shut down for prostitution.

In addition, while I suppose that you could have new regulations that call for the current testing regime and quarantine along with mandatory condom use, that isn’t what had been under discussion here, but enforcing (or extending) current regs and seeing which categories things fall under.  So if you get mandatory condoms you also get sex with people who may or may not be HIV+.  It’s not a cake and eat it too situation.

Comment #39: Skipjack  on  10/19  at  03:02 PM

there is already sooooo much porn in existance that that person can watch a different old porn everyday for the rest of his life and never have to watch somethng twice, so I am sure such dudes will be fine.


Which may in fact be exactly what the current porn producers are worried about. Not that any of us should give a shit.

Comment #40: typist  on  10/19  at  03:08 PM

The supply of porn is so much bigger than the demand at this point, that I understand why all these pornmakers are so paranoid of loosing a tiny fraction of consumers to other porn outlets who don’t mandate condoms.  It’s like those empty pizza places you go in to grab a napkin, and they want to charge you.  Such desperation.

Sometimes when I would see these people working at their films, suffering for studio time, sweating the extra couple grand it would take to stay for extra time, and then the editing and marketing, and then still not likely making a profit, I had to wonder: Why the fuck are they still trying to make professional porn when most consumers are going to the free outlets?  Why not just switch over to a healthier industry within the media?

Comment #41: raspberryjamba  on  10/19  at  03:09 PM

Hey!  Did we just type the same thing at the same time or what??  smile

Comment #42: raspberryjamba  on  10/19  at  03:10 PM

purpleshoes FTMFW.

I’m somewhat curious how hard it would be to make a more or less invisible condom—basically one of those superthin ones that rolls all (or most) of the way down the penis? Couldn’t someone at Trojan or Durex hire a makeup artist to create something like that?

Although “wrapped for safe delivery” is just awesome…

Comment #43: BrianX  on  10/19  at  03:13 PM

The whole nony-9 +HIV thing seems to be ‘unknown vector’ which merely plotted higher use (and consequently having intercourse more often) as transmitting more.  There wasn’t actually much study done beyond that.  It could just be that infection is higher in people who don’t have as much down time, let alone the spermicide.  I can’t find a study that controlled for frequency of intercourse vs frequency of use of product - nor can I imagine there would be many people who would use it frequently but have infrequent sex and vice versa.

Comment #44: Crissa  on  10/19  at  03:16 PM

PS #28 duck-bill:  Apparently you’re incapable of actually reading a blog for context.  Yglasias was positing that places that have high licensing requirements without a consequential upgrade in quality of service should look over whether those requirements favor the incumbent businesses or the consumer.

Would the price of a hot dog on the street be higher if you had to go to culinary school in order to get a license to sell them?  Of course.  And so we don’t have such a requirement - instead, we have inspections and basic practices we require.

Perhaps that should apply to haircuts. I dunno; I rather don’t go often, so I want to know my person has completed a degree so my rather longish hair doesn’t get mangled.  But someone who only needs a barber trim probably doesn’t need someone with a degree.

For a fancy dinner, I like to know my chef has apprenticed or has a degree… But for a hotdog?

Capiche? Comprende?

Comment #45: Crissa  on  10/19  at  03:23 PM

I think it’s worth discussing the gay industry further. Yes they require condoms but they reportedly don’t require testing. I don’t think going with one precaution but not the other should be okay, which both industries do.

Not only would I mandate condom use in porn for public health reasons, if it was possible I’d mandate that porn depict the actual putting on the condom. It might possibly be the best way to teach people how to properly put on a condom besides them trying to figure out themselves.

Personally, I don’t get the idea that that kind of thing ruins the fantasy. I usually find myself wishing that porn showed putting on the condom and lubing up, I find the anticipation pretty sexy. I mean, they can’t play it as “Oh yeah, I’m going to put on this condom and then guess what I’m going to do once I have that condom on?”

I know those things aren’t considered sexy, but having to refilm fucking isn’t sexy either and they make it look good. That’s their job, isn’t it, to make the unsexy realities of porn look hot?

As for customers finding condoms unsexy, I suspect that’s because the industry keeps repeating it. As I understand, after the last scare one studio started using condoms but changes quickly because of sales. Gay customers got used to it quickly because all the major studios (who were shamed into using condoms by the porn press and HIV activists) did it. Customers didn’t have many other choices.

From what I read, the film equivalent of photoshop can visually erase the condom, so it appears none was used.

I’m sure you can do it but it would be cheaper to just film bareback and say you used condoms that were digitally removed from the film. Since most porn performers don’t have the power to speak out against abusive work conditions, I figure that’s much more likely.

I wish it were possible for performers to unionize but there is a lot of turnover in porn, which is one way the producers keep their power over the performers. There are plenty of potential replacement performers out there. (I read that a lot of the online studios film in the beginning of the month when performers are more likely thinking about needing rent money to further widen the power gap.)

Comment #46: pepperlad  on  10/19  at  03:25 PM

...And Yglasias’s point about lawyers was that they were never tested again.  What’s the point of knowing your lawyer passed the bar thirty years ago and never committed a mistake since?  They might not have actually done anything, either.  You don’t get disbarred for non-practice.

Does anyone actually read the things they complain about?

Comment #47: Crissa  on  10/19  at  03:29 PM

Thanks for the shout out, Amanda.

Skipjack, the vast majority porn actors are employees in the eyes of Cal-OSHA. The agency has successfully fined porn companies tens of thousands of dollars for violating the bloodborne pathogens standard on set.

In California, porn actors are treated like Hollywood actors for occupational health and safety purposes. Generally speaking, actors and crews are the employees of the production company they’re working for—even though they’re also free agents hired per project.

Former AIM board chair and adult filmmaker Ernest Greene has been peddling a lot of nonsense about how the Cal-OSHA rules don’t really apply and if they ever were enforced the AIM testing program would have to shut down. Yes, AIM’s testing program is legally precarious because it’s set up to skirt California law that says you can’t make employment decisions based on HIV status. On paper, it’s an independent clinic. In reality it’s the industry-allied STD testing clearinghouse for the straight porn industry in California. Anyone will tell you that you have to test through AIM to work in the business. The whole point of AIM is the promise that those who test positive for HIV won’t get jobs.

The industry brags about how effective the system is at kicking HIV+ people out of the talent pool. The industry tries to use testing to create an HIV-free zone within the industry so that it can justify not using condoms. Of course, testing every 30 days is not nearly good enough to give workers the level of protection they’d expect on any other job site. A performer can infect a lot of people in 30 days of unprotected work sex, and those people can in turn infect a lot of people before testing picks up anything. More frequent testing wouldn’t help much because even the best tests still have a window period between infection and detection.

The solution is to eliminate AIM and create a license for porn stars, like the licenses for sex workers in brothels in Nevada. Testing would be part of keeping your license.

Comment #48: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  10/19  at  03:35 PM

I think that much of this has to do with the nature of a lot of straight porn today.  You are talking about acts that revolve around degrading, humiliating, and hurting women.  Right up front a condom is going to be a huge turnoff because condoms imply protection.  Who is being protected?  Much of the male audience for porn is going to view a condom as protecting the woman.  ANd porn is not about protecting women it’s about fucking the bitches up.

But most glaringly. most porn today is about come shots.  Coming on her face, making her choke on the come, coming on her ass, you don’t come in her ass, you come on it.  You pull out and then come on her.

That’s part of the fun.

You know, in order to really get to the bottom of this you’d first have to state what porn has become, and stop excusing it.

Hey to each their own but when I find out a guy is a porn user, that’s a deal breaker. 

Porn today is about hating, degrading and brutalizing women.  Period.

Comment #49: JennyLI  on  10/19  at  03:37 PM

@ purpleshoes #13 Unions unions unions UNIONS unions unions. Actors and performers need unions

YES YES YES OH GOD YES. Stage, screen, outdoor, street, porn, whatever; we need to band together or they’re going to keep treating us like crap.

Comment #50: stonebiscuit  on  10/19  at  03:56 PM

Re: seatbelts

THIS. THIS THIS THIS

I remember being nine years old, hearing one of my uncles say that, and immediatly thinking back to the myths kids younger than me made up. “Mom says I need to go to bed at 9:00, but what about people who DIE IN THEIR SLEEP?!?”

I wasn’t even that bright of a kid, but even I could see that some people just never grow up.

Comment #51: kaje  on  10/19  at  03:57 PM

Lindsay, thanks for setting me straight on the way Cal-OSHA looks at porn.  I’m curious as to what the distinction you made in stating “the vast majority” of porn actors vs. others is.  Is there some kind of loophole that could be exploited and if porn actors had to be licensed, what is the practical difference with AIM?  Just more frequent testing, along with condom use?  And what about HIV discrimination?

Aside to some others who thought I’m all about dangerous working environments, that is just bad faith argument and doesn’t get around the fact that if someone has an objection you still have to convince them to “win”.

Comment #52: Skipjack  on  10/19  at  03:59 PM

I don’t really think is about cum-shots because it’s pretty easy to do them even while using a condom.  It takes a fraction of a second to whip it off, and any man who has enough control to be a porn star can certainly hold it in for one more second.

Comment #53: bananacat  on  10/19  at  04:04 PM

Amanda wrote:

It dents profits on construction sites to require safety gear—-owners have to buy the gear and enforce use of it, all of which costs money that they could otherwise pocket—-but so what?  Remember, these are human lives.  Even if porn took a minor ding on the profits because of condoms, I can’t care.

Major difference: if someone gets hurt on a construction site, the injury is normally quickly apparent, and the construction company has actual liability, for Workman’s Compensation insurance, lost wages, a whole bunch of stuff, as well as a pending OSHA visit.  How many porn movie production companies are in that boat?

The use of safety equipment saves the construction company money in the long run.

Comment #54: Dana  on  10/19  at  04:08 PM

And what proportion of cum shots are probably faked anyhow?

Comment #55: Crissa  on  10/19  at  04:09 PM

catgirl—but if you’re going to remove the barrier and then come on someone, why wear a condom at all? The whole point of the barrier method is that it prevents the bodily fluids from making contact with the person you’re trying to protect. Just because you’re coming on her back instead of inside her vagina doesn’t mean you’re not exposing her to risk.

Maybe a mission-impossible style second latex skin on the “target zone” could be applied for the all-important money shot.  Might be a little hard for a facial shot though. For my part, I’m not really invested in the money shot, but there are a lot of elements to porn I could live without.

Comment #56: Mighty Ponygirl  on  10/19  at  04:13 PM

I’d read Yglesias’s posts on why barbers and other hair related specialists shouldn’t be licensed. He never really addressed one of the main reasonings behind the licensing, public health. That is to ensure that barbers and beauticians know how to properly use and maintain potentially dangerous equipment and chemicals and keep everything sanitary.

That sounds like an after-the-fact rationalization.  People who want to go into business braiding African American hair have been required to get hair care licensing, which requires learning how to cut and style fine hair.  There is no justification for that, except to keep newcomers out of the business and keep prices high.

I’m all for requiring basic public health licensing for barbers and hairstylists, but that is not what current licensing entails.

Comment #57: keshmeshi  on  10/19  at  04:21 PM

Well, there’s every indication that a lot of actual porn ejaculation is faked using clear tubes and doctored egg white, as there’s no guarantee even the most seasoned performer is going to be able to perform on command, as it were. And frankly, someone somewhere has probably caught an STD from ejaculate coming into contact with a non-mucous membrane, but it’s not terribly common, otherwise handjobs would be a lot more dangerous - so a lot of those money shots are actually pretty safe. This makes the question of condoms during actual intercourse even more head-scratching, since there’s going to be a cutscene anyway.

I think the fact that porn is an actual industry that needs regulation does take away from the air of private deviance in which a lot of people consume it. I’ve always thought it was really interesting that while the entirety of our culture is more or less set up to sexually gratify and excite heterosexual men, in my experience they’re usually much more upset if anyone figures out that they watch porn themselves. Speaking as a female person who comes from fandom, the land of “Angel gasped as Spike revealed his throbbing love instrument” etc, this has always perplexed me, but I also think that a certain number of porn-consuming people eroticize that covert, anti-social feeling, and attempts to actually protect the performers against reasonable hazards may puncture the bubble for a certain subset of those people.

That subset needs to grow right up and find another way to gratify their particular kink, mind, like reasonable grownups do.

Also, how the hell is porn still making money, anyway? If there’s one industry I expected pirating to drive into the ground, it’s professionally-produced porn.

Comment #58: purpleshoes  on  10/19  at  04:27 PM

purpleshoes, porn distributors have filed more take-downs and court cases against jon-does than the RIAA.

Comment #59: Crissa  on  10/19  at  04:33 PM

Crissa, thank you for the fact!

BrianX, I am glad someone enjoyed my condom joke.

Comment #60: purpleshoes  on  10/19  at  04:40 PM

This is a(nother) good illustration of one of the chief fallacies behind conservatism-libertarianism: The idea that what’s in someone’s best interest is what THEY THINK is in their best interest. You can point out hundreds of examples from real life to prove that these things are not the same, but the myth continues.
Comment 3—RickMassimo

Try selling someone on the converse of that, though. “Hello, citizen! I know what’s best for you better than you do!” I’m at least a second-generation progressive and I feel a bit guilty about thinking that way.

In addition, if condoms are mandated under regulations, likewise porn studios would be prohibited from asking about HIV status or preventing HIV positive performers from working.
Comment 6—Skipjack

I believe you that the studios say that, but I’d think being HIV-negative would be a BFOQ when you have sex for a living.

In addition, I am definitely sympathetic to the demand that porn should not be policed by government, whether from the right or the left.  It’s certainly the target of any number of groups who want to clean up society by shutting it down in one way or another.  Any ability to do so will be exploited by those who are in opposition to porn.
#6

I don’t disagree; the power to regulate is the power to destroy. So what’s a middle ground between keeping performers safe on the one hand and not outlawing porn entirely (which would be even worse for performers)? I don’t think the answer is to simply throw up our hands and say “can’t regulate it, too politically dangerous.”

The idea that porn consumers will be turned off by not seeing someone’s life endangered for pay is so icky that I don’t want to go anywhere near it if possible.
Comment #13: purpleshoes
</i>

I imagine consumers of reproduction-of-reality porn<sup>1</sup> fall into three categories (on this issue):
1. Those who don’t want to see women actually being exploited or abused.
2. Those who don’t actually care what goes on behind the scenes.
3. Creeps who enjoy the thought that the women are actually being victimized.

So, some observations:
* I assume that category 2 is many, many times the size of 1 and 3 combined.
* Notice there is no category of people who are actively against abuse; the 1s aren’t really the exact opposite of the 3s.
* Conversely, the 3s could probably be satisfied with good marketing without having to actually abuse women. Joe Francis, take note. On the other hand, presumably most people making porn for 3s are 3s themselves and so don’t want to find a way to avoid abusing women.

<sup>1</sup>That is, photographs and live-action film

Anyways, the gap between the gay industry and the straight industry really tells you all you need to know about this.  It’s about getting women infected with HIV.  That’s it.
<i>Comment 19—Punditus Maximus

Saying “the entire straight porn industry exists solely to give women AIDS” comes off as a touch paranoid. It is not only more probable that they don’t care, but it doesn’t reflect much better on the industry, nore does it demand significantly different action to deal with it.

if I’m watching porn, which I’m usually not, I’m pretty much going to say “ew” and turn it off if they use condoms. I’m not trying to say this is a good reason for the industry not to, but I don’t imagine I’m the only one who would turn it off.
Comment 27—felagund

Why would you turn it off? Insofar as the question is answerable.

Perhaps a magically appearing condom would be better than showing the thing being put on (which is presumably distracting to watch just as it is to do), but I don’t understand its very presence being a thing. De gustibus non disputandum est and suchlike, I suppose.

Comment #61: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/19  at  05:00 PM

I had a great idea last night - it’s going to make me millions:

CGI penises. All I need is a 10-inch long green rigid dildo that can shoot fake ejaculate, then I’ll add the penis in post.

Comment #62: Sarah TX  on  10/19  at  05:06 PM

...And Yglasias’s point about lawyers was that they were never tested again.  What’s the point of knowing your lawyer passed the bar thirty years ago and never committed a mistake since?  They might not have actually done anything, either.  You don’t get disbarred for non-practice.

I don’t know about the US but in Ontario licensed legal professionals are actually required by the law society to keep up with continuing legal education every year. Additionally they keep track of whether they have been practicing or not, what type of practice they have been in, and why they are not currently practicing; basic details of which are available to the public.

Just because they don’t retest every year doesn’t mean the public is at the mercy of unqualified professionals.

Comment #63: hypatia  on  10/19  at  05:06 PM

Face it: although women are a requirement in straight porn, they’re just not valued.

Well, they’re fungible.

Comment #64: kristin  on  10/19  at  05:14 PM

Catgirl, sorry but I find your response to my post to border on ludicrous.

Since come shots, come shots as degrading as possible, are a big part of porn today, the idea that the consumers of jerking off while watching a woman choke on come, or have come dripping from her face, is going to be fine with a man pulling off a condom before the shot is plain stupid.

What are you an apologist? 

Give it a rest.

Porn today revolves around hating, degrading, and brutalizing women.  Now if women are getting off on this, that’s your business, but don’t become such an apologist that you are making statements that are plainly stupid.

Comment #65: JennyLI  on  10/19  at  05:16 PM

I think I can sort of see their point, in a twisted sort of way.  Industrial hetero porn is almost completely lubrication free—the only body fluids you usually see near genitals is ejaculate (real or simulated.)  Penetrating penises are almost always completely dry.  Vulvas barely moist.  (Years ago an alt-porn friend told me that industrial sets go through stacks of towels to keep everything “tidy.”)  Anyway, in that context I can see that, yeah, condoms—especially latex ones—would chaff quite a bit more than skin.

The logical answer, of course, would be get used to lubrication, not don’t use condoms.

So anyway, that’s one way that porn sex is probably very different from either personal sex (no matter how prolonged or rough) or prostitution sex.  (Another would be that porn sex never looks like it would feel very good in real life.)

But acknowledging that there might be a rationale for doing it the way they’ve been doing it isn’t the same thing as saying it’s time to actually change it.

The bigger argument against condoms in straight porn has been that most customers (mostly male) didn’t like them.  And in 1981 that was absolutely true.  But Indiana University’s latest sex survey shows that, say, 43% of African American men report using condoms the last time they used sex.  Other demographics aren’t that far behind.  That suggests that positive associations of condoms and sex are continuing to rise, and that in turn suggests that condom use in straight porn wouldn’t be the big downer for consumers that aging industry insiders worry it would be.

In fact, given how much influence even the really marginal or dumb stuff people do in porn has on the general practice of sex (money shots? labiaplasty? penis-bending “jackhammer” positions? really?) the chances are very good that more condom use in porn would influence condom uptake in the general population.

I mean, seriously, if these folks can manage to make it seem sexy to pull out of a partner’s warm, slippery, active body at the moment before orgasm in order to wank out a wretched cold-air ejaculation they sure as heck can make slithering on a well-lubricated condom look sexy too.  I mean, sheesh!

—-

Lindsay’s point that there are now a lot of condoms that match different actor’s skin tone is a good one.  Generic latex condoms really do have sort of a clinical fish-belly look to it.  Not that there’s anything wrong with that, of course!  But Consumer Reports tests show pretty much all modern condoms work as expected.  So aside from the egregious penny pinching that goes on in the porn industry there’s really no, zero, none reason why adding condoms to the mix would ever need to be boring.

—-

Finally, about the HIV thing.  The fly in the vigilant-testing model of HIV avoidance is that people are by far the most infectious in the first 30-90 days after infection when HIV presents with mild flu-like symptoms.  Unfortunately those first 30-90 days are also the period when antibody testing is least reliable.  So yeah, while in general one could make the case that testing ought to be adequate, and I’d be willing to trust real-life friends who say it generally has been, the consequences when someone does contract it are dire because it can spread very quickly.  And not (ref Mark in #1) it can spread from women to men as well as men to women.

So I’d say condoms it is then, eh?

figleaf

Comment #66: figleaf  on  10/19  at  05:21 PM

Yeah, Hershele and others, it’s pretty much a chacun a son goût issue. I’m not trying to defend the porn industry, nor do I spend a great deal of time watching porn anyway, so it’s largely moot. I personally find condoms totally nauseating: the smell, the feel, the lack of sensation… yuck. YMMV, which is why I’m NOT trying to generalize my personal preference. And it’s why if I go for porn, it’s usually the amateur couples kind, not even so much b/c of the condoms as because most of the other commenters here are correct: industry-produced straight porn is by, for and about dreadful misogynists.

But I’ve heard enough other people, men and women, voice the preference that I bet the porn industry fears that if they do switch to all-condoms, they’re going to alienate a significant portion of their customer base. But they know it’s a crap argument, so they come up with superficially less crappy ones like the condoms/friction nonsense to repeat in public.

Comment #67: felagund  on  10/19  at  05:26 PM

Uh, Sarah TX, I’m pretty sure there’s something out there marketed to transgendered men and people who are into genderplay that you could paint green.

AnglScarlett, there are things that just set me off that I can’t have a level-toned conversation about. I am guessing porn is yours. Nonetheless, if trying to work out how an industry can function with minimal risk of directly killing its workers makes me an apologist, put me on the apologist wagon right beside Catgirl. The idea that the adult film industry is just too dirty dirty dirty to be regulated - on the part of both people who genuinely dislike pornography and people who are frantically enjoying some - is exactly what’s endangering the people who work in porn.

Comment #68: purpleshoes  on  10/19  at  05:26 PM

Felagund, well, clearly monogamous couples producing media as a hobby or cottage industry are a different category, though if they are caught under the “porn actors must use condoms” rubric I’m not going to shed a tear. I’m sure you’re not saying that you would rather endanger someone who works in a field where they’re exposed to dozens of new partners over the course of a month risk contracting HIV to gratify your boner, or lady-boner, as the case may be.

Meanwhile, plenty of people do plenty of things in the adult video industry that are uncomfortable in real life, and, because they are actors, pretend that it’s the Most Awesomest Thing Ever.

Comment #69: purpleshoes  on  10/19  at  05:31 PM

Catgirl, sorry but I find your response to my post to border on ludicrous.

Since come shots, come shots as degrading as possible, are a big part of porn today, the idea that the consumers of jerking off while watching a woman choke on come, or have come dripping from her face, is going to be fine with a man pulling off a condom before the shot is plain stupid.

What are you an apologist?

Where the hell did this come from?  We’re on the same side here (I think).  Swallowing would pose a problem, along with anything that involves the face, but it’s not very dangerous for semen to come into contact with a large patch of unbroken skin.  And I don’t think most men will have a problem with the 0.5 seconds it takes to remove the condom.  If it’s really an issue they can edit out that part but most men will just get used to it pretty fast.  Either way, condoms should still be mandatory.

What I’m saying is that legally requiring condoms won’t interfere much with cumshots so that’s not a good enough excuse to keep condoms optional.  Are you saying that condoms shouldn’t be required because they viewers wouldn’t like it interrupting the cumshots?  Or are you saying that cumshots are inherently degrading?  I agree with you on that point but it’s a complete non sequiter to the issue of requiring condoms.  I would be happy to discuss whether cumshots should be legally banned, but that is a different issue.

What, exactly, are you accusing me of being an apologist for?

Comment #70: bananacat  on  10/19  at  05:33 PM

I personally find condoms totally nauseating

I think you’re in the minority here, or maybe even in the company of Ross Douthat.  I’ve had sex with many men and I’ve talked about sex with many friends, both male and female, and I’ve never met anyone who was disgusted by condoms.  In my younger days, a lot of these men were your typical porn-watching doodz.  A few of them were annoyed by condoms, and some of them thought it decreased sensation somewhat, but not a singe one was nauseated by condoms.  Most people I know just consider them normal and don’t even give it a second thought.

Comment #71: bananacat  on  10/19  at  05:37 PM

And this is just so off topic I’m embarrassed to mention it but hey, Amanda, have you noticed that the graduated background in your website is exactly the same color as the text in your sidebar links?  With the result that everything after maybe the second link under “Recently” is invisible?

Not that I don’t have design problems with my own blog but yeah, that’s a doozie.

Long as I’m back I ought to mention that yeah, health and safety wise unbroken skin is way harder to infect than mucous membranes.  Which is why “money shots” on the body (but probably not the face) are objectively less problematic than ejaculation inside the body.  So if the industry continued to insist on depicting ejaculation it would still be better to remove the condom for ejaculation than to do without condoms at all.

That said, though, I’ve always believed that “money shots” are an artifact of cheap porn production and not a demonstration of prowess or “marking” at all.  First of all almost all women acting in porn have higher hourly rates and higher social standing than almost all men in porn.  Because of this there can be enforcement of boundary issues between co-workers—which might sound ironic but in the context of on-set dynamics it shouldn’t be.  And finally, given industrial porn’s phobic aversion to showing body fluids before ejaculation, and since nearly all those guys track their expenses by the minute, the time saved toweling something off your back, abdomen, or even face is preferable to the time spent waiting for ejaculate to exit body cavities.  And finally, I think it’s just a way of humiliating men in porn… a way of saying yeah, you get to have all this sex, buddy, but you’re getting paid to get your rocks off here.

Mostly though I just came back to mention that background/foreground issue.

fl

Comment #72: figleaf  on  10/19  at  05:46 PM

But with condoms the fictional logistics of the facial would be much more complicated.

Not really. The condom is removable you know. I’ve seen porn with condoms (maybe from other countries or something?) and they usually use a very clear condom that is hardly noticeable. Then they take it off off-screen if they want to show the guy coming visibly. I actually like the porns where they use condoms better.

Comment #73: slingshot  on  10/19  at  05:56 PM

Thank you #63 hypatia for the ‘but not my gregory’ response.  That it functions that way in Ontario is hardly indicative of the fifty plus judicial jurisdictions in the US.

And no, while some note whether things have been published, dues have been paid, doors are open - most states merely have a single bar exam and don’t count the number of clients you have each year.

Why would you assume the argument is none?

Some US states - not only do they only have a single bar exam, not a periodic one - require lawyers be involved in fairly mundane things such as filing zoning complaints or name changes.  Although not required by the state I changed my name away from my family name - I ended up being required by the judge to get council.  Who then proceeded to get him removed from that particular spot on the bench.

Like my hot dog example.  There needs to be a valuable difference for the license and accreditation, as well as actual empirical data that it is valuable.  And then we need to know this information does not degrade or has not been degraded - you wouldn’t want to eat at a place that was inspected when they opened, but never again, would you?

Comment #74: Crissa  on  10/19  at  06:16 PM

I like the idea of photo blue or photo green condoms for CGI.  Hehe.

Comment #75: Crissa  on  10/19  at  06:19 PM

Not sure if anyone else said it, but…

Without licensing, more people would go into the barbering/beauty saloon business.

Links to some beauty saloons please, I’m finding myself suddenly interested in regular haircuts.

Comment #76: themmases  on  10/19  at  06:43 PM

I mean, seriously, if these folks can manage to make it seem sexy to pull out of a partner’s warm, slippery, active body at the moment before orgasm in order to wank out a wretched cold-air ejaculation

But they can’t.  Though to be fair, I’m not sure that any of them have ever tried. 

That kind of thing is a specialized product designed to produce a male orgasm the way doctor’s mallet on the knee produces a kick reflex; sexy is not a target they are trying to hit.

Which is why you get these weird revolted reactions to the notion of introducing universal condom usage—people who watch it aren’t interested in seeing a couple of unhappy, mediocre actors simulate a sex act with whatever degree of erotic passion they can muster; they’re semen fetishists and by god they’ll get what they came for.  It’s only confusing if you think porn is for watching people fuck and pretend to enjoy it, but that’s what, twenty, thirty years out of date now, apparently.

Comment #77: sophonisba  on  10/19  at  06:52 PM

I can’t believe that Greene is seriously arguing against condoms on any grounds, but then again, he’s defending Max Hardcore against rape charges by claiming he’s a perfectly nice guy—-to him, that is—-and that nobody reported any rapes. Because reports—-especially in an industry like porn—-are going to be accurate measures of misogyny. 

  If this argument were being framed solely as protecting men, condom use would be mandatory and strictly-enforced.

Comment #78: ginmar  on  10/19  at  06:54 PM

Salon ran an interview with Madison Young on this issue today. She calls herself a feminist porn performer/director. I don’t watch porn, so I have no idea whether her work is really “feminist” (and, obviously “feminist porn” will mean different things to different people). In any case, she is pretty sensible on the issue throughout most of the interview, and does mention the importance of making safe sex seem sexy on film. But she really drops the ball when she says that mandating condom use would be as disempowering as making workers film unsafe sex. She says that there has to be an element of choice and that she makes condoms available to her performers, but doesn’t mandate it.

To me, that kind of choice is appropriate for people in relationships who can discuss their sexual practices honestly and then make that decision. But given that gender-based and other power inequalities in relationships make it difficult to even make that private decision without pressure, wouldn’t it be even more difficult in the porn workplace? I would think that without the industry-wide culture of safety and condom use, the actors just would not feel empowered to use condoms even when available.  And if most large porn studios do not use condoms on their sets, the actors who’d like to work for those studios might want to advertise that they are totally game to barebacking and chose not to use condoms on sets offering them.  And what would really be the benefit of using condoms on some sets but not others anyway? Sure, it’ll reduce the risk of exposure a tiny bit, but if an actor makes 10 films per week and only one of the sets makes condoms available, then there would be those nine other instances of the actor getting exposed/exposing others to STIs.

So, this idea of “choice” just doesn’t work for me. Then there’s also the ever popular “we’ll lose customers because men hate condoms/condoms are icky/it’s not sexy” argument. To that, I only have to look at how well smoking bans worked out. I remember when everyone was freaking out about NYC and Dublin banning smoking in bars and saying that it would drive customers away. And it never happened. Now every big city has the ban in place. I’m sure a tiny percentage of complete social misfits ended up boozing and smoking at home by themselves, but the rest got on with the program because they didn’t have a choice. If the legitimate porn industry decides to mandate condoms, the consumers wouldn’t have a choice but to get with the program.

Comment #79: elena  on  10/19  at  07:22 PM

Many people—especially men, but not a few women as well—like having sex without condoms. And they will always conjure up a whole bunch of excuses to do it. There was a study recently that showed that swingers in Britain were huge vectors for STD’s—of course they all thought that since they were middle class and screened people who came to the parties, they were OK. We had a swinger’s club close down in LA a couple of years ago because someone was traced back with an STD. Again, the swingers all assumed that they didn’t have to use condoms because people were screened.

Serially monogamous people often stop using the condoms quite quickly, shifting to other methods of birth control. That spreads STD’s. People convince themselves that oral sex doesn’t transmit and throw away the condoms and the dental dams when performing it. That spreads STD’s.

The porn industry is awful for any number of reasons. And Cal-OSHA should be able to impose it’s no-condom regulation on the industry. But this is actually a societal problem, not just a porn problem. Young singles who have casual sex, and the gay and lesbian community, are really the only populations who have fully gotten the message with respect to condoms.

Comment #80: Dilan Esper  on  10/19  at  07:31 PM

Dilan Esper, I disagree. Consent is a different creature when you’re being paid to do something, especially when you’re in a formalized employer/employee setting. I can make a free choice to use or not use condoms; frankly, the only person I have to justify it to is my partner. However, once I have to justify my choice not to my partner but to my employer, that’s a whole different question - that’s a labor question. What I do in my own personal bedroom is not to my knowledge a labor question.

Comment #81: purpleshoes  on  10/19  at  07:42 PM

Well, they’re fungible.

Ouch.  10/10 on the snark there.

I wouldn’t have thought that ejaculating on the skin was a major HIV transmission hazard in itself.

Comment #82: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/19  at  08:22 PM

The fundamental problem is the problem of corporations in general: corporate culture rewards people who resist risk exposure to the bottom line.

Comment #83: BrianX  on  10/19  at  08:28 PM

Amanda, I want to thank you for making me look at something in a whole new light, always an informative experience.  After reading this article I immediately started thumbing through Federal OSHA Regulations and started noting the sections nobody seems to consider in the porn industry:

29 CFR 1910.1030(d)(2)(i)

  Engineering and work practice controls shall be used to eliminate or minimize employee exposure. Where occupational exposure remains after institution of these controls, personal protective equipment shall also be used.

Seems pretty clear-cut to me.  What surprised me were a couple other sections that I hadn’t even considered:

29 CFR 1910.1030(d)(2)(xi)

  All procedures involving blood or other potentially infectious materials shall be performed in such a manner as to minimize splashing, spraying, spattering, and generation of droplets of these substances.

1910.1030(d)(2)(xii)

  Mouth pipetting/suctioning of blood or other potentially infectious materials is prohibited.

Comment #84: DaveL  on  10/19  at  08:33 PM

@85 - wow! Why don’t we just enforce these already existing regulations?? Sounds to me like it should mandate condom use.

Comment #85: slingshot  on  10/19  at  08:38 PM

#82

I said, I agree Cal-OSHA should be able to impose its regulations. Of course it is a work issue.

But beyond that, I still suspect that we aren’t going to get a handle on this issue until society at large (and especially the sexually active and sex-positive parts of it) gets the message about condoms. (Indeed, if this does not happen, I suspect the result is going to be that the porn industry moves to some more compliant jurisdiction where they can continue to risk the lives of their performers.)

Comment #86: Dilan Esper  on  10/19  at  08:54 PM

Catgirl I was answering Amanda’s question “they stalwart belief that condom use ruins the fantasy disturbs me to no end.  Why?”

Well why is obvious to anyone who has faced up to what a great deal of pornography is today.  It is about hating, degrading and brutalizing women.  In new and inventive ways because porn users get bored easily.  I saw two guys fucking a woman at the same time in the vagina last week.  What’s new?  Well we’ve got two guys fucking a woman in the ass at the same time, called double anal. 

The depraved addiction to come shots is of course a part of it.  And it appeared to me that you were saying, nah that wouldn’t ruin it for them.  BUt it would.  It would.

Now, what you appear to be saying is that it shouldn’t ruin it for them.  I agree that condom use should be mandatory, put pretending that it’s not going to ruin the fantasy for a large number of porn uses is simple denial about what they are getting out of porn.

They are geting off on hating, degrading, and most importantly, on physically brutalizing women.

And condoms simply are not a part of that.

So let’s face up to what kind of people are watching this shit, and getting off on watching a woman have two dicks in her ass.  It embarrasses me to write this stuff.  I fight with men all of the time on non-feminist sites and I can’t use this language because I am just way too embarrassed.  But regardless of embarassment I’m going to state it right out there.

They want to see women physically destroyed by cocks.  Ok?

ANd until you face that, and too many feminists just dont want to for various reasons, some of which I respect, and some like the Jezebel types, I don’t, then you aren’t going to be able to address this problem at all.

BEcause you are living in a fantasy world about what porn is, and what the audience for it is actually getting out of it.

Comment #87: JennyLI  on  10/19  at  09:23 PM

@88 - I think that’s why the gay porn biz has not had such a problem implementing mandatory condom use. They aren’t in the business of hating women.

Comment #88: slingshot  on  10/19  at  09:55 PM

#88:

MacKinnon and Dworkin and other feminist critics of porn said that 1970’s / early 1980’s porn was degrading to women in various ways. And a bevy of sex-positive feminists, as well as non-feminists, defended the industry on free speech grounds and basically by arguing that merely depicting sex on film isn’t necessarily anti-feminist; indeed, they pointed out, lots of feminist speech could be swept in if there were any attempt at censorship.

Since then, the porn industry has basically done everything it possibly could to prove MacKinnon and Dworkin right. Really, compared to the stuff they are doing now, the stuff that feminist porn critics complained about 25 years ago really WAS harmless. We’ve gone from an industry that worshipped ejaculating on a woman’s face (bad enough) to an industry that routinely depicts anal, double penetration, double vaginal, double anal, urination, fisting, and literal violence against women.

So yeah, basically, you are right.

Comment #89: Dilan Esper  on  10/19  at  09:57 PM

@90 - ok I was agreeing with you up until you said fisting!!

Do you have a problem with fisting??? Holy shit that’s like the best orgasms I’ve ever had! My favorite toy is my hand shaped dildo! Damn fool don’t dis that shit.

And most of the porn I’ve seen with that are two women and way better than the penis-centric straight porn.

Comment #90: slingshot  on  10/19  at  10:04 PM

*Nod* A lot of porn is not exactly a feminist treatise on equality. But our desire here is to find out how the women in these flicks can be protected from disease, so that they can live to say “Ouch! Maybe that double anal scene was not exactly a blow for women’s equality”

Comment #91: shannon  on  10/19  at  10:45 PM

Slingshot, I mean, just about everything listed there is someone’s consensual kink. Pointing out that those things are not pleasurable in porn is almost beside the point - PIV intercourse is also, I am guessing, not terribly pleasurable in porn. Cunnilingus isn’t pleasurable in porn, or at least not enough to justify the racket. But the fact that someone has a fetish that involves any of the above isn’t the biggie. It’s the fact that none of those fetishes-or-completely-vanilla-desires can operate with the woman on the screen also being a real person, and the fact that fetishes that are, again, fine as fetishes get used as misogynist theater. Trust me, there are people out there right now whose sex lives involve both urination and anal fisting who are having a fine feminist time of it.

Those people are having a more interesting Tuesday than me, at least. I’m fighting on a blog. We all have our hobbies.

Comment #92: purpleshoes  on  10/19  at  11:15 PM

Wow, hadn’t heard this urban legend, but yes, it does fit in with the rationalizing humans are prone to do to defend not doing something that is slightly unpleasant.  People my age or younger are used to wearing seatbelts, since we have since childhood, but someone who didn’t grow up with them as second nature, yeah, sure, could see them as uncomfortable, esp. the way that they tend to creep up over large boobs onto the neck.  Same with vaccines - lots of people are very much bothered by, if not outright afraid of, needles, so the tendency to latch on to any rationalization of their fear just feels straight out of Psyche 101.  Speaking as a woman, I won’t say that they reduce the pleasure of sex, though I’m happy to be in a committed relationship where we can use other methods, but oh boy, they sure did make a certain type of guy whine.  And avoiding the “but I don’t wanna!” whine has to be appealing.  Of course, that’s just dealing with non-professional hetero sex.  The idea that they suddenly don’t work for professionals is so far beyond my acceptable level of rationalization, I just can’t buy into it for any reason other than wanting to keep the women looking degraded.

I used to be really freaked out by condoms in porn, just because they were so unusual, I’d start thinking about it too much, and be taken out of the fantasy.  At least now I see them commonly enough not to think about them.  Overanalyzing the porn as you’re trying to get off on it is counter-productive, IME.  It must be the fact that we actively seek out the non-hateful stuff that they seem to be relatively common enough for them not to trip my notice.  Now, seeing a foreskin, that still makes me think too much about the actors as individuals.  But if they became more common, I’m sure I’d cease to notice them as well.

Comment #93: Djinna  on  10/19  at  11:18 PM

Shannon, I am not talking about women porn workers sayin “Maybe that double anal scene was not exactly a blow for women’s equality”.

I’m talking about anal prolapses here. 

I feel that there is this false equivalence that is sometimes made between those who claim that pornography sexually frees women, and those who believe that porn actors are largely victims.  As if these are both stupid positions.

Well, the second one isn’t.  And I do not agree with the (fairly) new feminist trope of believing that it’s the feminist position to claim that sex workers are empowered and we demean them by considering them victims.

A woman who is being fucked in the ass until her anus collapses is a fucking victim.  I don’t consider victims to be people to be looked down on and I highly doubt anyone here does, so I don’t really completely get the insistence on demanding I don’t consider many porn workers to be victims.  Yes, I know, there are some who love it, who choose it, and all of that.

I’m talking about most of them.  I read an interview with the author of a book about pornography who said that the porn trade magazine itself that most women last three months in the business.  It’s brutal.  i will have to try and find it, and I don’t have independent backup for that, but it was a pretty interesting interview.

Comment #94: JennyLI  on  10/19  at  11:22 PM

Slingshot wrote:

Why don’t we just enforce these already existing regulations?? Sounds to me like it should mandate condom use.

If OSHA is focusing its attention on, say, concrete plants, the agency pretty much knows where all of the plants in its district are located, and have access to all of the licensing and testing documents associated with the business.  If OSHA wanted to focus on production of pornographic films, odds are that they’d have no idea where the films were being made, and find few, if any, documents and agreements for adhering to some sorts of industry and regulatory standards.  Compliance with whatever regulations the government wanted to put on porn would be almost completely voluntary, and if porn producers aren’t taking a simple and safe step now, it’s hard to see why it would change.

Comment #95: Dana  on  10/19  at  11:25 PM

http://www.alternet.org/media/148142/should_we_worry_whether_porn_has_hijacked_our_sexuality/?page=entire

Here it is, it was on alternet, I forgot.

I don’t know if everything in here is true.  But if someone knows of something in it that isn’t true, they can definitely post that information.

I think it’s worth reading.

Comment #96: JennyLI  on  10/19  at  11:27 PM

Oh, and @ slingshot regarding believing that the gay porn industry mandates condom usage because it’s not based on hating women…I think there is quite a bit to that.

Comment #97: JennyLI  on  10/19  at  11:35 PM

OK, anal prolapses are a worker safety issue, even though the issue we are speaking about here is the spread of AIDs.

Comment #98: shannon  on  10/19  at  11:49 PM

OK, anal prolapses are a worker safety issue,

You know an industry has problems when this phrase comes up…

Comment #99: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/19  at  11:53 PM

IT’s really interesting, though probably to no one other than me, that I just read that whole article I posted.  I had stopped mid-way through because I felt that feeling you get in your stomach like you want to clench your thighs together and double over in a protective stance.  And I see that this author has hit on everything that I feel, but struggle to put into words when I read feminists writing on porn. 

“This is a great question because as pornography becomes more brutal, you would think that the conversation would get around to brutality and what happens to the women. It’s amazing, I think, those feminists who support the porn industry–they don’t look at it as an industry, they look at it as a collection of women being empowered by the industry. Now, I’m not saying there aren’t some women who can’t make this work for them. However, what I’m interested in is the macro-social and systematic effects of an industry, not of individuals working within it. What I study is the mainstream industry where women are not empowered. Women come and go, they enter the industry thinking they’re going to be Jenna Jameson, they leave scarred, they leave emotionally affected by what’s happened to them. And I think as feminists we need to start looking at the effects on women both in the industry and outside the industry because, as I said, these women are dating the men.

I think also there’s areas in feminism where no one really sees the reality of women’s victim status, that we say women are no longer victims. Well, if you look at the level of violence against women in this society, you look at women struggling to feed their children, you look at women living in poverty, you know, we need to have feminism with politics. And what’s happened, I think, is that politics have been bled out of feminism, so now you get this idea that we got what we wanted, or at least we can be empowered as individuals. I’m sorry, but you cannot be empowered as individuals when women as a group are systematically discriminated against. And even if I’m OK. My feminism was saying, “You know what? I walked that distance for you because you’re not OK.” That’s what sisterhood was about. Not about looking at individuals and saying, “You’re OK, so that’s a sign that women are empowered.”

Yes, Yes, Yes.  A thousand times Yes.

Feminism has gone largely off course on porn.  And the only way to steer it back on course is to challenge this new conventional wisdom.  It needs challenging.

Some of it, and I believe this is where Amanda is coming from, and I wouldn’t read her blog every day if I didn’t respect her, comes from a reactive place.  Its reaction to the nasty backlash against feminists like Dworkin and MacKinnon and all of the mythology that backlash imbued into the mainstream consciousness.  I get it. Feminism can hardly be effective if we allow it to be painted as a few anti-sex bitter women who can’t get laid and hate men and hate sex.  I respect what this view is based on, and the (largely legitimate) fear it encompasses.  But then some of it from other feminists comes from a juvenile “look at me I’m a feminst and a hot fuck” nonsense narrative.  Shut up already.  We know, fuck first and fuck fast and then you can’t be date raped, and you love to watch porn and you’re so hot.  Whatever.  I have zero use for that “contribution”

But back to the first, serious, school of thought;  it’s time to reevaluate.  Porn has changed.  The description of it as taped sexual assault is the most succinct I’ve heard.  Many of these women are victims.  Poverty does have something to do with it.

Let’s get back on the ball and reevaluate.

Comment #100: JennyLI  on  10/19  at  11:54 PM

No Shannon, what we are discussing is why the straight porn industry won’t mandate condom use.

And that issue goes a lot deeper than you seem to want it to.

Comment #101: JennyLI  on  10/19  at  11:57 PM

OK, anal prolapses are a worker safety issue

You know an industry has problems when this phrase comes up…

A problem best solved by screaming “iiiiiicky” isn’t it?

I’m very sympathetic to your feelings on this AnglScarlett, honest (I’m just being snarky ‘cause it’s a day that ends in Y) but I think it’s a waste of time to bring up stuff like anal prolapse on a thread about condom use because it’s not really a condom-related health problem.

Comment #102: Bagelsan  on  10/20  at  12:46 AM

Compliance with whatever regulations the government wanted to put on porn would be almost completely voluntary, and if porn producers aren’t taking a simple and safe step now, it’s hard to see why it would change.

For obvious reasons, you will find that pornographers are awfully meticulous about documenting the fact that all of their performers are over 18. When the proper incentives/threats are in place, you will find compliance,  even in porn.

Comment #103: Tyro  on  10/20  at  12:47 AM

Lying about what I said is not being “snarky” bagel, it’s…lying about what I said.

And what I said is that sex causing those kinds of injuries is physical assault and brutality against women.  I never even implied that I found the victims “iiiiiicky”.  This must be projection on your part.

For the 50th time, I brought it up because Amanda finished her piece by asking WHY porn users would find condoms disturbing to their fantasies.

This, I believe, is a discussion about why the straight porn industry won’t mandate condoms, and I believe that my posts are very on-topic.

Comment #104: JennyLI  on  10/20  at  08:53 AM

Also logistically, would condoms even have a chance in hell of staying on during now routine porn acts like double anal?

I really don’t know.  But I seem to highly doubt it.  Think about it.

Comment #105: JennyLI  on  10/20  at  08:55 AM

Tyro, you can bet garbage to doornails that the reason they do so is because of the Traci Lords example, she cost the industry millions of dollars and even resulted in a case that sounds like the title of a Roger Corman movie:

United States v. X-Citement Video, Inc., 513 U.S. 64 (1994) was a lawsuit filed in the United States in Woodland Hills, California district court against X-Citement Video and its owner Rubin Gottesman. The charge was trafficking in child pornography, specifically videos featuring the underaged Traci Lords.

Comment #106: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  10/20  at  09:51 AM

The bigger argument against condoms in straight porn has been that most customers (mostly male) didn’t like them.

One of the most important reasons for using condoms in porn—maybe more important that protection of the individuals involved in making the porn—is to normalize the use of condoms. This was a big factor in why condoms became the rule in gay porn.  If porn customers grow up on porn that always involves condoms, not using a condom becomes unthinkable.

Comment #107: rea  on  10/20  at  01:41 PM

I wonder if part of the source of the urban legend is that porn actors don’t want to wear condoms because they are painful for the sorts of acts they perform. As I said, I am not a big consumer of porn and certainly not sadistic porn, but if what others have said is true and producers actually work to make women as dry as possible, condoms might make what already sounds really painful to be unbearable. Just thinking about dry sex with a condom is making me cross my legs and hunch over uncomfortably. The AIDS thing could just be a cover for porn stars trying to avoid short-term pain.

Comment #108: alysia  on  10/20  at  02:05 PM

@alysia

I’ve only watched one professional full-length porn film and condoms were actually a part of the plot.  I cannot for the life of me remember the title, but I believe that it was directed by a woman.  The “plot” was that a woman thought her husband was cheating on her because one of their condoms was missing and so she and her friends “investigated” and found out that he gave it to a woman (an employee? maybe?) so that she would have safe sex with her partner.  Then, they made up with more sex.

Given that I rented it from the on-demand in a hotel room (from the “light plot” category), I cannot imagine that the film was a failure.  It didn’t have anything really creepy in it (although it was packed full of weird things like a woman lighting hitting a penis against her cheek), but it seemed mainstream enough.  I would think that condoms could easily become (at the very least) a much bigger part of porn with no consequences.  The fact that it hasn’t leads me to believe that the excuses are just that.

(I’m not saying that a couple of films or companies adopting a condoms-necessary policy would solve the problem, but it really doesn’t seem to have happened at all.)

Comment #109: Atheist, A Feminist  on  10/20  at  03:05 PM

#91:

ok I was agreeing with you up until you said fisting!! Do you have a problem with fisting???

I have no problem with anything consensual. I’m a big-time sexual libertarian, when you get down to brass tacks.

The problem with porn isn’t that there’s anything wrong with any particular sex act, in clinical terms. It’s that the sex acts are used as a tool of male dominance. And I would argue that while there was a bit of that in the 1970’s and 1980’s porn that MacKinnon and Dworkin criticized, there was far less of it than there is now and that the emphasis on more extreme sex acts is part of the change.

In early porn, it was usually presented as two people having fun, doing something naughty. There were standard scenes, such as the secretary giving her boss the blowjob under the desk while he took the important call, or the cheerleader and the football player who snuck into the locker room and had intercourse. I’d hardly call these particularly feminist, and the money shot, in particular, wasn’t particularly feminist, but at least sex was presented as a mutually pleasurable activity. Whether or not the actors and actresses were actually enjoying the work (and I suspect that for at least some actresses, porn was more enjoyable work in those days than it is now), it was least presenting a fantasy vision of mutually enjoyable activities.

Modern porn, for the most part, isn’t like that at all. Rather, it’s all about men figuring out the most dominant and degrading thing that they can do to the actresses. Note that the various extreme play is NOT mutual—there’s not much of a market, that I am aware of, for women sticking anything up men’s anuses, or fisting men, or slapping men around. These things may exist in BDSM porn that caters to the fetish community, but the “mainstream” hetero porn that sells most of the videos and internet subscription is entirely focused on doing these things to women.

And, as I said, they are NOT presented as even a fantasy of mutually enjoyable activity anymore. Rather, the men are basically presented as using the women to get off.

Finally, the acts themselves are acts that, again, while perfectly appropriate to spice up the lives of two consenting adults who want to get into extreme kink, are acts that are extremely dangerous and injurious to the person in the “bottom” role, especially when done without all the extensive preparation that goes into BDSM play, and are also extremely dangerous and injurious when done over and over again in a short period of time.

So yeah, there are huge differences between consenting adults wanting to explore their kinky side in some mutually agreed upon fashion and a porn film that focuses solely on male-on-female violence presented in the form of extreme sex acts. And I really think this is a big change from older forms of pornography that focused on the taboo of men and women deciding to have sex with each other on film.

Comment #110: Dilan Esper  on  10/20  at  03:25 PM

Its reaction to the nasty backlash against feminists like Dworkin and MacKinnon and all of the mythology that backlash imbued into the mainstream consciousness.  I get it. Feminism can hardly be effective if we allow it to be painted as a few anti-sex bitter women who can’t get laid and hate men and hate sex.  I respect what this view is based on, and the (largely legitimate) fear it encompasses.
Comment 101—Abandoned Esther

I have a hypothesis about that: people in 2010 read Dworkin writing about the ‘70s/‘80s and see a world that barely (though probably far more than I realize) resembles the one they know. So the reaction, if it’s not “and the fact that I don’t see it means thre’s a huge conspiracy to hide it, unenlightened sheeple, etc. etc.,” is “this person is crazy, she’s exaggerating to the point of ridiculousness, she’s making shit up.” And that colors the reputation of feminism. The idea that feminists invent things to get worked up about is the belief that every feminist is Dworkin, and moreover every feminist is saying now what Dworkin was saying decades ago.

Comment #111: Hershele Ostropoler  on  10/20  at  03:52 PM

Crissa @ 45:
WA required that I pay to take and then pass a state food safety test back in 1979 when I became an underpaid 14 year old waitress. 
Currently, MA requires not only a state test but completion of a “Safe Serve” course to work handling food in any capacity.  Many restaurants will sponsor new hires, but take the fees for the course and test out of the first few checks.  We jokingly refer to it as the Dunkin’ Donuts’ law at my house as DD managed to get themselves exempt while McDs et al have to comply.

Comment #112: helen w. h.  on  10/20  at  05:38 PM

Dana @54:
Forget all that; safety reg enforcement saves on their insurance bill straight up.  Insurance companies audit their big construction and industrial contracts.

Comment #113: helen w. h.  on  10/20  at  05:44 PM

It seems weird to me that everyone has gone straight to the general absence of condoms in straight porn as a misogynistic kink, rather than pointing out the sociological reason for their presence in gay porn. Like, 30 years of HIV/AIDS education focusing with laser-like intensity on sex in the gay community is going to have an effect.

Straight porn, hell, straight sex, has never been subject to that kind of focus, which is why they go with the more slipshod monthly testing stuff.

Comment #114: Indy  on  10/20  at  10:29 PM

“Are condoms really that noticeable in porn? I am not a huge consumer of the genre, but it seems like you would really have to be looking to notice a condom.”

In the genres that pretend to have a plot, I suppose there wouldn’t be much of a way around either putting it on on-camera or cutting out the actor putting it on, which might be difficult if they’re piling all the extra angles onto the DVD as extras.  Or! They could use female condoms, which would avoid all that, because they can be inserted ahead of time, but might be more noticeable during oral scenes.

I’ve seen porn where the condom magically appears/disappears: not there for a handjob/blowjob, suddenly there for the penetration sex, then disappearing for the money shot.  It’s noticeable because of that continuity issue, but otherwise the way I considered it (back when I watched porn) was as something the viewer simply had to use the suspension of disbelief for.

Comment #115: KeithM  on  10/21  at  02:01 AM

#116:

Yep. There are populations WITHIN the straight population, such as teenagers, people who have a lot of casual sex, and some prostitutes, who insist on condoms, but much of the straight population either doesn’t use them at all or stops using them as soon as the relationship becomes “serious”. Plus, blowjobs and cunnilingus apparently fall under some sort of exception to the rules of safe sex, as if nobody ever caught an STD from those activities.

So I don’t think you can completely exclude that from the calculus of why so little hetero porn features condoms. But I agree with most of the commenters here that the big reason it happens is that so much modern porn is a male dominance fantasy; indeed, you are most likely to see condoms in the high-end “couples” type of porn where there aren’t as many extreme, male dominant acts and the actresses are treated better and paid more. That correlation certainly suggests that it is more than simply the hetero community’s ambivalence about condom use that is going on there.

Comment #116: Dilan Esper  on  10/21  at  03:41 PM
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