I live in a poor rural area and pretty much everybody hunts.  While it can be an expensive sport it doesn’t have to be.  People either have cheap firearms or they have guns that have been in their family for generations, and they eat what they kill.  I don’t hunt, myself, but I let neighbors hunt on my farm.

But really, it’s not about the hunting itself and all about the signal.  I don’t think this is a productive line of argument.  I think you might have a point if you were talking about Cheney blowing away farm-raised birds on private land, but Palin was going out into the bush and hunting on public lands.

I’m as incredulous and horrified by Palin as the next person, but WHOA.

Hunting is not ALWAYS “elistist”- this is a bullshit argument put forth by people who have never had to fucking SURVIVE on deer meat in the winter. When beef is a luxury, you hunt deer and you fish. When they opened up the moose hunt back in 1980, families were THRILLED to be able to potentially bag a larger animal that could feed them better.

My family has been hunting the Maine woods every fall for hundreds of years, not out of sport or elitism but to simply keep FOOD ON THE TABLE. Younger generations are taught how to hunt and butcher the kills, then share with the elder generations no longer able to go out and get their own. And it’s not just men- my mother, grandmother, cousins and aunts have all taken down deer.

My eyes suck and I have worn glasses since age 6, so instead of hunting (although proficient enough to hit bulls’ eyes at 100 yds with a .22, 5 out of 6 shots at best) I was part of the butchering crew. Have gutted/cleaned out moose, deer, patridge, and thousands of fish in my over 40 years, packaged and frozen tons of meat, and made/canned hundreds of gallons of mincemeat for winter pies and turnovers.

Elitist. Give me a fucking BREAK.

We also HAVE to raise our own large vegetable gardens and make our our preserves/jams/jellies, not out of hobby but because like most people, we like to eat on occasion.

Most Americans don’t realize that while yes, there are ted Nugent rich types who hunt for trophies, there is a FAR larger percentage of people who hunt just to fucking SURVIVE!!

good damned point, Melinda- NO ONE in my family owns a new expensive rifle, as they are passed down from generation to generation. My father’s is held together with fucking black electrical tape!!

Part of the hunting problem that people face is that the hunting areas are being pushed further and further out. With corporate farming you are less likely to gain access to the hunting grounds you had hunted as a boy with your grandfather.
That said I have hunted as a boy but I do not have the guns, the dog or dogs or the time to drive out to the “country” and try to talk my way and or bribe my way on to a farm for a few hours of walking in the mud to find a tree to setup for deer or a blind for ducks or just wonder around with the dog to scare up a bird or flush a rabbit.
The elitist hunting clubs that Dick shot his friend at are out of my price range.

I would like to point out Sadly No! has a great one up this morning.

The whole thing with hunting is that it plays well with the wanabees. It plays at the heart strings of the middle class republican man and sometimes woman. The idea that if he wanted to… but not this weekend, the kids have soccer… he would go out in the woods with a GUN, and he would put meat on the table for his family.

Also part of it is the whole, Daddy took me hunting thing. As strange as it is for a lot of liberals to understand, going out to blast some ducks gives a lot of people warm fuzzies. For some people the only bonding they ever had with their fathers was out in the field with guns and for a lot more, the idea of them taking their own children out to the field to bond seems like a romantic ideal.

As for rural America, hunting is often more about augmenting the food budget than it is doing it for sport.

Hunting is something that you just let lie. She really can’t use it too often, because then she might emasculate some of the base.

Where would you like the break?
Do you know the price range for membership smart guy? Have you looked it up or are you pulling magic rabbits out of your ass?

When I first read the post, I kept thinking “None of MY friends voted for Nixon, so how’d he win?” But, yeah, thanks for getting the numbers Jesse.

Up here in northern MN, hunting is almost a religion.  Mostly it’s deer hunting in the fall but hunting and fishing, especially ice fishing, are hugely popular up here.  Most of the hunters are blue collar to lower middle class men.  White men, of course, since that’s about we all have up here.  While hunting may not be popular in large urban areas, I can assure you it’s a way of life and a strong family tradition here even in mid-size cities here in the midwest.

I understand your point, Jesse, but I think it’s based on some uninformed views of who hunts and why. The risk here is that if your premises are wrong your conclusion is probably wrong, too.

Bullshit. Pure and simple.

Nah, I’m done here. Lemme know when Pandagon comes back, if ever. fuck this shit.

I’m just back from Europe but I DID get to see the amazing Democratic convention! It was very inspiring and just awesome, although I watched parts of it alongside the movie “Smiley Face,” which was a bit of a jarring yet not unpleasant combination.

This Palin thing… I don’t care if she hunts or has a child with Down’s syndrome (though I do admire her bravery on the latter front). What gets me is that this seems so far afield from anything that John McCain would think up on his own. Who is pulling the strings behind his campaign?

No really louise, fuck you.  It’s not Pandagon doing anything, you’re pissed because someone annoyed your particular ox.

Hunting is, as Jesse says, something the vast majority of us don’t do and have no connection to.  I’m a gun owner and I love shooting…targets.  But for a number of reasons hunting is a alien to me as a lot of activities that were, at one time, considered de rigeur American behavior.  And nowhere in my words is there is a slur on hunting.  I’m just pointing out the obvious, and yes, Jesse is right, hunting is (mostly) elitist and I don’t care how many examples people here can cite of going out shooting with grandpappy’s ancient flintlock, dressing the carcass themselves and eating it.  Of the hunters I know most are, well off, spend a lot money in pursuit of their game and don’t eat most of what they bag.

So, take your indignation and stuff it up your taxidermied butt.  Or maybe, just relax.  You choice.

First, the wording was unclear. Now it’s clear. I am from a part of the world (Appalachia) where everyone used to hunt for food, and in general now they can’t because there’s a golf course/ski resort on the land where they used to do it. It does play a huge role in family life, for the families that can still do it. Teaching your sons how to fend for themselves in the woods and provide for their families is still a big deal, assuming you’ve hung on to some woods. (And the steady enclosure of hunting lands by private interests that cater to tourists does amount to a crisis in these communities, by the way. That’s one reason why this kind of thing resonates in the voter base.)

What I’m getting from this is that for a lot of politicians, hunting is like Marie Antoinette playing farm maid in the gardens at Versailles - it’s a luxurious parody of something some people do for reasons of culture and survival.

I’m willing to bet that Palin is from a kill-it-and-eat-it family, that she was taught by her father or husband, and that what it signifies to red voters - besides that she doesn’t want 3% of them to go hungry - is that she’s a tomboy who can stand up for herself. I think a lot of “traditional family” voters have a soft spot for tomboys, as long as they’re an exception to the rule.

Jesse, I figure that if more than one person misunderstands what I’m saying then the problem was with how I expressed myself.  You’ll note that “ice weasel” thinks you’re arguing that hunting is intrinsically elitist, as well.

I still think you’re wrong, however, and I think it’s a weird, unproductive line of argument in a political context.  First, I don’t think that hunting actually is that expensive or difficult for most people, even in the populated NE.  Go out to K-Mart and buy a cheap shotgun and some camping equipment (I think a lot of suburban families already have at least some camping equipment, actually), spend a few bucks on a hunting permit, head out to a nearby state or national forest, and have at it.  That’s way cheaper than a family trip to Orlando.  The actual issue may be that most people don’t know *how* to do these things but that’s not the same as them being inaccessible to the average American. 

It seems likely to me that argumentation along the lines you’re proposing is about as likely to get traction as arguing that baseball (or football or basketball) aren’t particularly American sports because most Americans are out-of-shape couch potatoes.

“What gets me is that this seems so far afield from anything that John McCain would think up on his own. Who is pulling the strings behind his campaign? “

That is the thought I’ve been having since I’ve had time to sit on it. It seems very out of character of him. I guess his journey to the Dark Side is complete.

Thank you for taking a brick to the “hunting is the all-American pastime!” notion.  I live in Michigan, and while it’s easy to run into a hunter during season, it’s not like civilization shuts down for two weeks while everyone heads up north to bag a buck. 

“What gets me is that this seems so far afield from anything that John McCain would think up on his own. “

I disagree completely.  This is exactly the kind of thoughtless, seat-of-the-pants, ego-driven choice I would expect from Mister Bomb Iran.

I’ve gone hunting before. I didn’t find anything offensive in Jesse’s post.

What gets me is the notion that all hunters are *Republican* which is just not true.

I think you’re heading into “some say” land.  I tend to think the hunting thing is used as a signal rather than as an actual prerequisite.  As far as I know George W Bush doesn’t hunt, Joe Lieberman certainly doesn’t hunt (sport hunting is forbidden by Jewish law), etc.  It’s put together with other information and becomes “necessary” only when there are other issues.  Kerry wouldn’t have grabbed his shotgun and gone on a bird shooting photo op if things had been going well for him, I think.  George W Bush has never had to talk about being a hunter or gone out and posed in camo or field clothing because his patriotism was (unfortunately) never called into question. 

And I continue to believe that you’re wrong about the “elite” aspect of it.  It’s an inexpensive, relatively accessible activity.

I would be interested in what percentage of people who hunt do so for food.  I suspect it’s large, although probably shrinking for reasons mentioned in posts above.

While I’ve never hunted myself, it is something that most people where I’m from (northern WI) do. However, the populations of rural areas where hunting is part of the culture are significantly smaller than the populations of urban areas. So it’s just simple logic that most people don’t hunt. Of course hunting is not an expensive activity for people from Duluth. But if you’re from L.A. it probably would be.

Since everyone else is trying to give examples the other way, I’ll tell you why your post resonated with me. My step-dad and his son pay ridiculous amounts of money to prove their manliness, which is depressing, on things from motorcycles to dirtbikes to hunting gear. My step-brother received a gun safe last Christmas that cost somewhere between 500 and 1,000 dollars. For his several guns, which are only cheap (relatively) if you have one. My step-dad also has a gun safe (a larger, presumably more expensive one) with several guns. They also invest in dear-hunting gear, though I don’t know exactly what, since I haven’t been interested. My step-dad also, until recently, owned land for the sole purpose of hunting on it. He does not hunt for food, though he eats what he kills. He is also not a particularly rich man, and grew up middle or lower-middle class (and not, like, McCain’s middle class). I don’t know if he sees hunting as a prerequisite for being A Real American or A Real Man, but he certainly sees it as a plus in both columns. Most hunters in the Dallas area of Texas (where I grew up) hunt in a similar manner, paying out the ass for mid-level guns, gear, deer leases or land, and gun safes. And hunting is certainly a big part of the culture in certain Dallas suburbs, despite the fact that no one there has a limited access to food who can afford to hunt.

Sure, and fly fishing is a wonderful way to feed the family.

My point isn’t that hunting is elitist by nature but that it frequently can be in today’s world.  Most Americans have no connection to hunting.  So the idea that “hunting” is something all of us relate to and admire is bizarre.  It’s part of an iconography that’s really out of date.

The idea that hunting is cheap and easy, and here I’ll take issue with Jesse (sort of), what exactly are you hunting what that cheap shotgun?  Pigeons?  Maybe Pheasant I suppose.  Decent hunting weapons are not “cheap” in my world.  Maybe I’m less well-off than most of you.

Maybe 4.2% of the population hunt in the lower 48 as we call you people down there but for us Alaskans hunting is a way of life - and for many people, especially those off the road system,  it is a big part of their diet. Yes people will spend thousands of dollars to come up here and hunt big game. I can go out into my back yard and kill a moose if I felt the need. Alaska is not North Carolina, its not Ohio, its not California. It is a different way of life up here and before you start ranting about something you might want to make sure you understand it.

It’s been a while since I have visited Alaska, but I have to say that hunting is probably done by most of the poplace at one time or another. And there are many subsistence families (who live out, way out). Many homesteads are only reachable by plane. Of course they hunt. How that translates to the lower 48 is anybody’s guess. In Alaska, it’s more of a survival issue. There was a statewide list of folks waiting for the next moose to be nailed on the Anchorage-Fairbanks railway.  Roadkill.
It’s a very different world.
I am NOT supporting anything republican, but very few Alaskans think the way the rest of us do. Grain of salt and all that.
Mudflat is a more liberal local Alaskan blog with interesting info on Ms Palin. Google it.

Jesse, I think your post and point is perfectly clear, without any amendment needed.  I grew up in the rural South, with a father who took his vacation time every year to go hunting, either near where we lived, or, very rarely, in the upper peninsula of Michigan with relatives who lived up there.  THEN, it was not an expensive hobby - and he taught me to shoot a rifle as well.  We knew people in our area who depended on hunting season and a big freezer to put meat on the table for much of the year.

But NOW - times have changed.  When I lived in Vermont, every hunting season we would be inundated with wealthy fools from New York and New Jersey, tricked out in their expensive hunting gear, and shooting anything that looked dimly like a deer - that’s how a woman got shot in her own back yard in Maine one year because she had the temerity to wear white mittens.  Farmers put orange vests on their cows in a desperate attempt to protect them.  These men weren’t hunters - they were novelty seekers.  And while there are still men like my father left,  more and more, hunting is the province of the better off suburban man looking for penis validation.  The Tennessee countryside I grew up roaming around in doesn’t exist anymore - it’s suburbia now.

Jesse’s point is correct - MOST Americans don’t hunt - but the only thing that should be added is that it’s myth, just like the American family farm - it figures in the background of a LOT of Americans, but is greatly diminished as a reality.

Would like to add my “F*CK YEAH!” to geordie’s comments above.  Grew up in Upstate NY.  Knew actual rural hunters, hunters who were going off to get meat to feed their families, were careful about what they shot at, etc. 

And then we have the dingbat Rambo wanna-bes driving up in their SUVs from NYC, chugging beer, and blasting away at everything that moves in the woods, totally oblivious to how close they may be to a) a house b) a farm c)a road. 

Given the increasing urbanization of the US and the closing off of the lands, hunting is becoming more and more a rich man’s sport a la Dick Cheney.

I tend to think the hunting thing is used as a signal rather than as an actual prerequisite.

I think that’s the real point, and it’s where Jesse missed the mark a bit (sorry, Jesse).

It’s not that hunting is an elitist sport.  It’s what Frito said:

The whole thing with hunting is that it plays well with the wanabees. It plays at the heart strings of the middle class republican man and sometimes woman. The idea that if he wanted to… but not this weekend, the kids have soccer… he would go out in the woods with a GUN, and he would put meat on the table for his family.

A lot of conservatives have a sentimental attachment to hunting that’s all out of proportion to the way most people hunt, which is for food.  So you’re going to have people like Brooks and Kristol and Will—sophisticated urbanites all—burbling about how Palin’s hunting skills make her a “real American,” unlike the other 95 percent of us.  It’s the same reason that certain guys insist on driving a Hummer in the suburbs.

Please!  Everybody!! Remember, there are many different ways of life in the US, it’s a big place.

Where I love, only people who flew in hunt for “sport.”  I personally would rather kill a large mammal than a spider.  Spiders keep my house fly-free.  Also, you kin EAT a large mammal.  Ain’t NO meat on a spider.

Ain’t NO meat on a spider.

You must not be cookin ‘em right

Most Americans don’t realize that while yes, there are ted Nugent rich types who hunt for trophies, there is a FAR larger percentage of people who hunt just to fucking SURVIVE!!

Sure, about as many people hunt to survive as make their own clothes from broadcloth that they weaved at the loom that they have in the living room next to the spinning wheel

A brief message for those of you who are trying to hold Jesse accountable for what you think you read instead of for what he actually wrote (and clarified repeatedly): Coming from a hunting family and passing Logic 101 are not mutually exclusive.

Let’s chuck a sprinkle of Bourdieu on this, shall we?

Weekend programming on various cable networks sells a particular kind of hunting as a status symbol that don’ make you look like no pussy. Club Safari International prides itself on its elitism. Cheney and Scalia hunt like it’s 1922.

Contention: It is necessary to hunt to be a Real American.

Corollary: it is necessary to hunt in a particular way that satisfies the requirements of a particular group of people who are pols before they are hunters in order to be classed as a Real American within the political sphere.

Alaska is not North Carolina, its not Ohio, its not California. It is a different way of life up here and before you start ranting about something you might want to make sure you understand it.

Cool-io. Just so’s you know, the lower 48 aren’t colonies of Alaska. Yes, it’s one of the few remaining cultural repositories of the Untamed Frontier, but that only goes so far.

see that in some people’s (i.e., Republicans of political influence) hands hunting IS an elitist activity

Booze, guns, and blaze orange together are only elitist if you’re rich.  Otherwise they’re the mark of the white trash hunters that end up in the Game News as having fallen out of a tree stand, shot each other, or drowned.

Sorry, Jesse, but until you did the clarification, your post sounded exactly the way people took it. But you did clarify, so people need to read the new version.

for us Alaskans hunting is a way of life - and for many people, especially those off the road system, it is a big part of their diet.

So, even your Governor is so poor she needs to feed her kids roadkill?  What happened to all that taxpayer money Ted Stevens has been sending up there?

Hunting is and always has been a leisure activity.  It’s not how you put food on your family, it’s what you do to take a break from putting food on your family

Gassing up the SUV, picking up a couple of six-packs, and spending the weekend in the woods waiting for deer is a hobby.

If you were desperately trying to feed your starving kids, you’d be going for squirrels, or using punt guns to kill 30 or 40 pigeons at a time, or raising rabbits instead of snaring them
….or, here’s a thought, instead of spending the weekend hunting, you could get a job, and use the paycheck to by food from the grocery store

Hunting is a hobby not work. There’s nothing wrong with that. I’m not Cotton Mather, who railed at the evil of going hunting rather than do your chores at the farm, but it is nothing but a hobby

It seems like the person what does a whole post on hunting and what it signifies and blah blah blah is really the one with the fetish. People hunt a lot where Sarah comes from. It’s just a thing they do. Maybe it would be good sometimes to take a deep breath, hold it, and then let it out slowly while thinking of bunnies. The ones Sarah Palin is not shooting I mean.

The ignorance, it burns.

Yeah?

and what percentage of you families caloric intake is from deer meat?

Hunting for sport in a modern industrial civilization is stupid.

However, I was under the impression that it was a pretty common thing for my neighbors here in South Carolina to do.

The stats suggest that it’s more talk and symbol than a real leisure activity. An effective rationalization for a sociopathic gun fetish. Very interesting.

Perhaps an analogy can be drawn between vocal, militant promotion of Christianity and the appalling lack of actual Christian morality.