Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: If you must be a douche, could you at least not use nauseatingly florid language while you’re at it? Previous entry: Attack of the Christmas-hating Democrat slutburgers!

Shine on, crazy Wikileaks leaks

Couple of things before I dig into this post: last night’s interview on “Joy of Resistance” on WBAI was a lot of fun, especially since Jill Filipovic was in-studio with me.  You can listen to the archived version here, along with their last episode. A lot is covered, but we do talk some about Julian Assange.  (Well, Jill was on to talk about it. I just pipe up with one thought.)  I was also interviewed on Vancouver’s “The F-Word”, this time about feminist blogging.

Michelle Dean has a typically thoughtful and interesting post on the Wikileaks phenomenon and the annoyingly predictable response from people when someone they admire is accused of rape.  (My favorite irony is how people who can manage to acknowledge someone is a creepy misogynist and does things they admire cannot make the leap into suggesting that someone could be a rapist and also do things they admire. Convenient!  Once again, for the people who struggle with walking and chewing gum, I’m not accusing Assange of anything.  I’m just objecting to the notion that the rape accusations are beyond credibility.)  The rape stuff has been rehashed here, so I won’t get into it.  But I do want to answer some questions she raises about Wikileaks itself.

There is a strong, if rather incoherent, sense on the left that Assange’s work is deeply important, and thus worth defending at all costs. And yet, at this juncture, the articulations of that value are rather unclear. Like everyone, of course, I’ve enjoyed the occasional bitchy statement that Cablegate has revealed from some State department lackey. (A personal favorite is the whiny memorandum about American stereotypes on Canadian television – we’re just glad you even care what we think of you, American brethren!) But so far, the information has been widely agreed to reveal no particular smoking gun, no admission that UFOs exist or 9/11 was planned or that Bush spent much of his time in office improving on prior MarioCart scores. And even when Wikileaks reveals something truly shocking, like the video of the murder of journalists in Iraq that it circulated some months ago, little seems to actually happen.

It’s possible, of course, that that argument sees too many trees to bother taking in the forest. Noam Chomsky, for example, has suggested that the takeaway from the cables is that they reveal a “profound hatred for democracy on the part of our political leadership”, and perhaps that metanarrative will actually win out among historians. But in terms of actionable specifics, things that will galvanize targeted calls for political change in the here and now, well, there’s not a whole lot to be found there. Yet, of course. Which is the rub, and the thing we all rely on when we think about why what Wikileaks is doing might be valuable to us. If one needle comes out of the whole haystack, that is probably enough to justify the entire Wikileaks enterprise. It’s probably true in this case that the very idea of Wikileaks is worth preserving in the abstract, even if we’re not sure about how it’s played out in the real world so far.  So let’s be generous and say that it is that abstract value, Wolf et al. are relying on, after all, in their largely speculative adherence to the theory that fear of Wikileaks may be so strong that some covert agency has trumped up sexual assault charges against its mastermind.

Actually, I don’t think we have to be generous.  I’m skeptical of covert agency claims, especially with regards to this rape case, but the fear of Wikileaks is actually that strong.  That part isn’t speculation.  The funniest and most amazing aspect of Wikileaks is how the project managed to expose how fragile certain kinds of power on, since they rely so heavily on consensus.  In this case, the consensus around government over-secrecy—-turned out that you only needed a handful of truly determined dissenters and suddenly everyone is running around like their asses are on fire. 

Which isn’t to say that I think order through consensus is a bad thing.  For instance, the police and the courts only work because everyone basically agrees on the justice of the laws, keeping their workload to a manageable level and keeping the money flowing into their systems. When people don’t agree, that actually makes their jobs impossible.  For instance, drugs.  Even if people will tell phone pollsters they believe anti-drug laws are just, the widespread use of drugs suggests that we’re far from consensus on this front.  Thus, law enforcement is inadequate as a response, even if you believe they should be doing something about it.  (I’m skeptical, at least about the buying and selling, though obviously the violence that attends to black markets is a legal matter.) Sadly, lack of consensus that rape should be a crime—-a lack of consensus that’s exposed every time a famous man is accused of rape and large numbers of people go on the record saying that you should totally get to rape some women—-means rape is widespread in the way other crimes aren’t.


I don’t think the abstract value of Wikileaks is speculation at this point, or that the project only matters if they cough up the silver bullet that Michelle is talking about.  I think that the value has been proven by the reaction it’s caused.  The reaction made the argument for Julian Assange and his supporters—-by overreacting in the worst possible way, the governments of the world, but particularly the U.S., demonstrated that they’re run by people who have little respect for democracy.  Michelle minimizes this by saying that historians will take note, but I think that people in the here and now are taking note.  And how they react is maybe even more critical than how our leaders react. 

For this purpose, I think the absurd leaks actually do a better job in many ways than the more substantive ones. When you have Wikileaks publishing stories about how Kim Jong-il tried to use diplomatic game-playing to get Eric Clapton to perform a concert for his son, and you compare the silliness of that story to the fact that Interpol has arrested Assange, people are calling for Assange to be executed without trial, the military is blocking access to Wikileaks, and the government is threatening federal employees with their jobs if they deign to know what’s now public information, well, it’s hard not to draw the conclusion that the leadership of this country and the world have completely lost their minds.

We’re in a position now where you could, technically, get fired for watching cable news and being exposed to the fact that North Korea tried to use diplomatic leverage to get a private concert with the guy who wrote “Layla”.  The value in understanding that is beyond historical.

I’m particularly interested in the way that Wikileaks is exposing the emphasis on unknowing in our culture.  It’s not just the crazy levels of secret-keeping, though that’s bad, but also the way that this is part of a larger cultural landscape where people are asked—-and usually agree—-to suppress a great deal of knowledge and understanding that threatens the social order and keeps bubbling up to the surface.  Believe me as someone who remembers quite vividly the amount of widespread intentional ignorance that people assumed in order to go along with the invasion of Iraq.  For better or worse, I’m below average at the skill of believing something I know to be untrue, and subsequently the widespread delusion that Bush sincerely thought Saddam Hussein was a threat made me bonkers, as if everyone suddenly started agreeing that cat turds were a legitimate form of currency.

Of course, there have been leaks that were content-substantive, which is why Bradley Manning is in jail.  I’m not forgetting that.  But this whole thing is so very much a real 21st century scandal, since the media is quite literally the message in this case. 

By the way, I would argue Americans are failing the test.  The widespread willingness to have people engaged in basic journalism executed without trial demonstrates in a way that all the elections in the world couldn’t that Americans are getting the authoritarian government that we bring on ourselves.  And that might be the most valuable lesson of all. 

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:36 AM • (78) Comments

Also, the U.S. is trying to build a bullshit case up against Assange.

Comment #1: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/16  at  11:51 AM

It’s possible, of course, that that argument sees too many trees to bother taking in the forest.

Not possible, but exactly correct. This is all about the forest. You clearly get it, Amanda, but I don’t see why it’s so difficult for those who don’t to dig up Assange’s mission statements that led to the Wikileaks concept.

The “abstract value,” which is already forcing an auto-immune response in establishment internal communications networks and causing them public embarrassment, is certainly enough to prompt a strong suggestion from the U.S. government to the Swedish government that re-opening a “he-said/she-said” case that was a non-starter from the original prosecutor’s view. It embarrasses and inconveniences Assange (well, maybe not embarrasses, given his douchey views on women), and keeps him on ice while the U.S. government stretches mightily to put together its espionage case against him (and, if Lieberman has his way, against the NYT).

Comment #2: Gracchus.  on  12/16  at  11:53 AM

Edit—That should read:

“from the original prosecutor’s view would be a desirable action.”

This stuff is infuriating.

Comment #3: Gracchus.  on  12/16  at  11:56 AM

The overreaction that is causing our government to torture someone who has been convicted of nothing is also relevant, though Manning’s leak is obviously substantive as well as embarrassing.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/16  at  11:58 AM

I have to admit to being a bit on the fence about Wikileaks. On the one hand I believe that free information flowing is critical to a free society, on the other, I’m not keen on anything that leads to people’s deaths. And unfortunately, I cannot dismiss the latter possibility as the usual military industrial complex bullshit. What’s happening to Manning is atrocious.

Comment #5: typist  on  12/16  at  12:33 PM

I think this ties heavily ino the non-prosecution of war crimes by the Bush Administration and even the on going foreclosure fraud.  The classcism on display is immense.  I mean we currently have banks presenting fraudulent documents to foreclose on homes.  This is the plot of a maudlin 30s movie and yet its not even getting a mention.  We have a huge tax cut deal but we leave the $250 for Social Security recipients go.

Comment #6: Robert  on  12/16  at  12:34 PM

There’s only so much control, typist.  I mean, should North Korea have been allowed to play in the World Cup, knowing as we do that the players face possible execution for losing?  There is always tension between catering to authoritarians to save lives and taking measures that undermine their power.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/16  at  12:41 PM

We’re in a position now where you could, technically, get fired for watching cable news and being exposed to the fact that North Korea tried to use diplomatic leverage to get a private concert with the guy who wrote “Layla”.

Except that’s not true. From the CNN article you link to:

“The memo does allow for reading of articles about the cables on media sites.”

The government memo only forbids downloading the actual documents themselves.

Comment #8: Felwith  on  12/16  at  12:49 PM

I always find it funny that observations like Chomsky’s “the people in power have no respect for Democracy” are treated by mainstream folks as being so explosive.  Of course the people in power hate democracy.  That’s why we have democracy.  It’s the point of the system

Comment #9: Ape Man  on  12/16  at  12:50 PM

“The government memo only forbids downloading the actual documents themselves.”

...well, I guess that makes it okay, right? 

As long as you’re getting third-hand information (no doubt sanitized for your protection by beholden-to-conventional-wisdom “centrist”-and-serious David-Broder / David-Brooks / Cokie-Roberts-type MSM villagers) then it’s good.  But first-hand exposure to the actual information?  Verboten!...

Comment #10: MikeEss  on  12/16  at  01:16 PM

Fair enough, Fel, but that this is even a topic of discussion creates this absurdity.  The notion that you can’t go to a popular news website and read its stories should be enough to make you outraged.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/16  at  01:20 PM

1) If you can’t stand looking at Assange’s smirky face until it’s worked out exactly how much of a rapist he is, adblock works wonders.

2) Since I figured out that I can read wikileaks if I don’t have to look at Assange, I’ve learned more than I ever knew about Azerbaijan.

Comment #12: purpleshoes  on  12/16  at  01:22 PM

And, like with DADT, once you introduce forced unknowing into a system, how you learn what you’re supposed to not know becomes irrelevant.  Military power wasn’t supposed to ask, and yet most people that are being discharged under DADT didn’t tell, and were only found out because there was asking going on.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/16  at  01:22 PM

Sorry, but the argument that PFC Manning is being “tortured” just doesn’t impress me in the least.  The “torture” claimed is that he is being held in solitary confinement and isn’t allowed access to newspapers or the internet, that he isn’t being given a pillow or sheets for his bed.

Well, solitary confinement is not regarded as torture under our laws, and while PFC Manning has not demonstrated violent tendencies—the usual reason for solitary confinement— he has had access to classified information and has a demonstrated propensity to divulge it; given that he’s in the brig, the people to whom he’d be most likely to divulge more classified information are criminals or suspected criminals themselves. To hold PFC Manning in anything other than solitary confinement is a security risk.

Of course, PFC Manning had a perfect way to avoid solitary confinement: he could have chosen not to divulge classified information in the first place, he could have chosen not to betray his country, he could have chosen to honor the oath he took upon entering the United States Army.

I can see the arguments that he ought to at least be given a pillow and sheets, and books to read, but as far as keeping him in solitary, that’s the right thing to do.

Comment #14: Dana  on  12/16  at  01:35 PM

On the one hand I believe that free information flowing is critical to a free society, on the other, I’m not keen on anything that leads to people’s deaths.

I’m not either, but Wikileaks isn’t causing deaths, not even indirectly. They made an effort to redact certain names and identifying info themselves before releasing the cables to outlets like NYT and the Guardian, who have extensive experience determining what is ethical and in-bounds to publish when it comes to classified materials.

On the other hand, American troops are being killed and maimed in a war that’s being run in support of an Afghanistani leader that successive U.S. governments publicly portrayed as a reasonable and Westernised pro-democracy statesmen, but who they privately regard as a paranoid and corrupt tribal warlord.

I’d rather the American public know the details about that series of slimy deals and convenient denial that’s lead to their fellow citizens’ deaths. If Wikileaks had been operating at a similar level in late 2002, I doubt Bush would have had as easy a time putting ground troops into Mesopotamian sinkhole, either.

The government memo only forbids downloading the actual documents themselves.

One example of the auto-immune response Wikileaks triggered. This is the reason that they’re so enraged—they prefer their anti-government/anti-globalist activists to be ineffectual and easily-kettled street demonstrators, not people who actually stick them in the eye (or, more accurately, force themselves to do so).

I can’t wait for the Wikileaks release of the BofA documents next year, and not just because that bank is a particularly sleazy racket. If you think the government’s auto-immune response to the leaks are self-defeating, wait til you see the sort of reaction a bunch of MBAs, in-house lawyers, and HR people will have. We’re about to see bankers frantically eating their own heads.

The Libertarians here will say that private industry wouldn’t possibly react in such a ridiculously self-destructive way. To them I commend this article, detailing the urgent steps that a major Swiss bank has taken in response to the exposure of its own irresponsible acts. Think an American bank will be smarter than that?

Comment #15: Gracchus.  on  12/16  at  01:44 PM

I think the practical considerations are really what needs to count here. I think that world governments have overreacted to this and that it’s quite likely that the charges are trumped up. But let’s think exactly about what Wikileaks has accomplished.

Have they really changed the way information flows in society? No. All these tools were there before and would’ve been utilized by someone else in the future. Guaranteed.

Will US policy change as a result of the leaks? No. Not even the more embarrassing/illegal stuff have moved them.

Will governments change the way they deal with classified information as a result of the leaks? Doubtful. I see any changes they make being relatively minor- Assanage is nowhere near accomplishing his stated goals of sewing confusion and distrust.

He actually mortally wounded himself with the release of the diplomatic cables I think. As it’s been noted, there’s no real “there” there. And the implication seems to be a lot of them were released to make the US look bad and no other reason- there’s no attempt to even say “well the US is bad but look at China!” In the end he hurt his credibility through this and hurt his overall cause by venturing into the diplomatic rather than legal/illegal sphere. Really he comes off as the guy in school that exposes all the dirty little secrets between friends, saying “I’m looking out for you! Look how bad they are!” When the truth everyone already had an idea their friends were like this, accepted it as part of the deal and moved on. Really the end result when you go around openly talking about secrets that everyone already knows (“OMG! NATO actually has plans to adhere to it’s treaty if needed!”), is that nobody really pays attention to you and everyone just thinks your an asshole for sticking your nose is someone else’s business.

Comment #16: Tokay  on  12/16  at  01:54 PM

Dana, I’m glad that you could drop by and give us a comment that is so cliche I could have written it for you.

Glad to know that you consider all secrets to be equally important:  The secrecy of the British PM’s preference in bathroom tissue is every bit as important to protect as the US Nuclear Launch Codes.

Besides, in your Right-Wing Authoritarian Worshipping world, if those in authority decided it, then that’s it…

...unless those people in authority are Democrats, in which case it’s okay — nay, it’s your duty — to ignore them…

Comment #17: MikeEss  on  12/16  at  01:54 PM

purplrshoes wrote:

If you can’t stand looking at Assange’s smirky face until it’s worked out exactly how much of a rapist he is, adblock works wonders.

On Patterico, someone suggested that he looked like he ought to be a villain in a James Bond flick.  I suggested he looked like Max Zorin from A View to a Kill while another person suggested Maximilian Largo from Never Say Never Again.  smile

Comment #18: Dana  on  12/16  at  01:55 PM

Dana, glib sociopathy masquerading as “maturity” might win you friends in whatever provincial social circles you move in, but around here it’s just regarded as brazen stupidity. And it’s not lime we don’t alreay remember you being a torture loving bush supporter in the 00’s, so it’s not like you’re breaking pattern.

Comment #19: Tyro  on  12/16  at  01:59 PM

Mr Ess, you have no idea what other classified information PFC Manning possesses; it might well go beyond he British PM’s preference in bathroom tissue. 

He was working at Contingency Operating Station Hammer in Iraq, and might well have information regarding security measures in place in Iraq.  So far, he hasn’t divulged such information yet, but he’s reached the poinjt where he has nothing to lose and every reason to hate the Army and his country.

Comment #20: Dana  on  12/16  at  02:00 PM

Well, solitary confinement is not regarded as torture under our laws

Neither is waterboarding, you scumbag. Our laws haven’t exactly been a shining beacon in regard to torture.

They won’t let Manning excercise during the 23 hours a day he’s confined to his cell. There’s a fine border between military chickenshit punishments and torture, and they’re standing right on it.

When Orwell said “if you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever,” he didn’t anticipate the fact that future RWAs like Dana would be happily licking the boot.

Comment #21: Gracchus.  on  12/16  at  02:03 PM

As long as you’re getting third-hand information (no doubt sanitized for your protection by beholden-to-conventional-wisdom “centrist”-and-serious David-Broder / David-Brooks / Cokie-Roberts-type MSM villagers) then it’s good.

Or from Glenn Greenwald, or Rachel Maddow, or even here, from you, yes, you!

I just don’t think that people who actually work for the government and have agreed to uphold its classification system (unlike the rest of us) needing to continue to abide by that system even after classified information is leaked is as self-evidently absurd as you make it out to be.

Comment #22: Felwith  on  12/16  at  02:05 PM

he could have chosen not to betray his country

Because the best thing for his country, any country is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS doing what the people in charge tell you.

The beautiful thing about you, Dana, is how utterly transparent you are. Your comments always show your true beliefs so nakedly.

Comment #23: kristin  on  12/16  at  02:10 PM

So he should be in solitary for something that he or might or might not have done which remains to be proven in court and in case he might or might not do something. Maybe I should be locked up because I might or might not have killed Jimmy Hoffa and in the future I could decide to take a dump on Dick Cheney’s lawn.

Comment #24: pharmakos  on  12/16  at  02:11 PM

Have they really changed the way information flows in society? No. All these tools were there before and would’ve been utilized by someone else in the future. Guaranteed.

I’d disagree. They’ve already been forced to sacrifice more convenience and efficiency in exchange for a little security (to paraphrase Franklin)—ordinary citizens have grown used to that, but it’s a new thing for institutions like the State Dept. Ideally information should flow as freely as possible between peers in a private network—Wikileaks has disrupted that in a number of small but important ways.

Will US policy change as a result of the leaks? No. Not even the more embarrassing/illegal stuff have moved them.

These are after-the-fact releases, so the policy train left the station a long time ago in most cases. However, it is changing how U.S. officials have to deal with a variety of scumbag leaders, and smoked out the latter for what they are, for all to see.

Will governments change the way they deal with classified information as a result of the leaks? Doubtful. I see any changes they make being relatively minor- Assanage is nowhere near accomplishing his stated goals of sewing confusion and distrust.

It’s been enough that they’ve over-reacted. The last time they went after someone with this level of personal animus, it was Ellsberg.

I will agree that Assange made serious mistakes this time around, but it has little to do with the nature of the leak and more to do with his own egotism and willingness to put a face (his own) on what should rightly be a headless organisation.

Comment #25: Gracchus.  on  12/16  at  02:13 PM

@Dana: Solitary confinement is torture. The psychological consensus is clear on this. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande

Comment #26: gotthatpma  on  12/16  at  02:19 PM

Yeesh, this post is depressing.  I’m going to go pet my cat.

Comment #27: JasonB  on  12/16  at  02:29 PM

and in the future I could decide to take a dump on Dick Cheney’s lawn.

Really, how could you decide otherwise?

Comment #28: Bagelsan  on  12/16  at  02:34 PM

I will agree that Assange made serious mistakes this time around, but it has little to do with the nature of the leak and more to do with his own egotism and willingness to put a face (his own) on what should rightly be a headless organisation.

And you have to ask yourself - is Julian Assange a moron?

Because really, to put yourself out there as the public face of an organization whose stated aim is to shed light on the shadowy doings of the most powerful people in the world is not the smartest thing to do.

I suppose it could be ego.  Ego makes people do stupid things.

On the other hand - if you know you’re going to be dealing with a group of people who don’t believe that history is driven by movements but rather by “great men”, well, the best thing you could probably do to keep them from stopping you is to give them a target.  Someone who they can target with their lawsuits or their hitsquads while the real work continues to be performed behind the scenes by the people who really do the work.  Plus it gives a huge level of publicity to the organization and convinces leakers that “hey - these guys must be doing something right if the entire US government is so fucking paranoid about this one guy.”

Julian Assange may be a moron, or he may have set himself up to be the decoy.  The person that the US is running around and spending a lot of time and energy trying to “get” while WikiLeaks itself continues to do what it’s done for years - and while it spawns hundreds of imitators.  If Assange’s goal isn’t self-aggrandizement and isn’t positioning himself to be a power-broker through his control of WikiLeaks but rather to be a martyr for a cause that he believes to be able to operate without him, then what he’s doing makes a lot of sense.

Comment #29: NonyNony  on  12/16  at  03:03 PM

I suppose it could be ego.  Ego makes people do stupid things.

That doesn’t necessarily make him a moron. A lot of smart people have done stupid things once they became addicted to celebrity and having their egos stroked. The OKCupid and couchsurfing posts indicate that he might be particularly prone to entering that trap.

Not that the martyr/decoy strategy you lay out isn’t equally probable or mutually exclusive. Egotism often figures into that kind of thing, too.

One thing I’m sure of is that he’s not a moron.

Comment #30: Gracchus.  on  12/16  at  03:17 PM

I’ve actually read the Assange manifestoes and been thinking about them, but I’m just not convinced that I buy his theory about secrecy being the lynchpin of brute power.  I mean, overclassification is a problem.  But is it as much of a problem as, say, who has the most guns?

I also want to point out that it’s not yet clear that in fact the continuance of Wkileaks will lead to clearer accountability/better informational flows in government.  In vastly oversimplified terms, one of the current open questions in studies of the Internet and democracy is whether or not these open flows help governments become more democratic or rather whether they are going to force governments to begin being incredibly protective of their privacy.  I mean, one policy to the over classification problem is that the government loosens the standards it has used to date, but it’s equally plausible that they’ll just tighten their computer security and access clearance to ensure no more Mannings have them.

I guess all I’m saying is that I don’t see this issue to be as clear as current rhetorical claims are making it out to be.

Comment #31: Michelle Dean  on  12/16  at  03:19 PM

Dana, that our immoral laws define torture too low doesn’t mean it’s not torture.  Manning is being fed a steady stream of anti-depressants in order to keep him from losing his mind.  The chances that someone in solitary is permanently driven mad are really high.

We’re social animals.  It’s torture.  That the law doesn’t say so shows that the law is wrong.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/16  at  03:37 PM

Well, solitary confinement is not regarded as torture under our laws

And gassing people wasn’t regarded as murder under German laws.

Comment #33: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/16  at  03:40 PM

My mistake - gassing Jews wasn’t regarded as murder.  We have to make the distinction between Jews and people, much as Dana makes the distinction between Manning and “American citizens with constitutional rights”.

Comment #34: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/16  at  03:42 PM

But is it as much of a problem as, say, who has the most guns?

It’s become a comparable problem, at least in the developed core where symbolic manipulation and knowledge and service work has supplanted industrial manufacturing and agriculture. That’s not to say that guns don’t matter in those places, but the neoliberal globalist notion of internal control is to use soft power first, with guns and brute force as the last resort (it is interesting to note how quickly they’re approaching that last resort in Europe, though).

I also want to point out that it’s not yet clear that in fact the continuance of Wkileaks will lead to clearer accountability/better informational flows in government.

The message I got out of the manifestos is they want worse informational flows in government in the absence (as is the status quo) of clearer accountability. Put another way, “if you’re not going to expand the domain of critical info that you share with the citizens who pay for it, we’re going to make it as difficult as possible for you to share it amongst yourselves.”

In vastly oversimplified terms, one of the current open questions in studies of the Internet and democracy is whether or not these open flows help governments become more democratic or rather whether they are going to force governments to begin being incredibly protective of their privacy.

I look at it in and both/and way—open flows of publicly funded data (e.g. officially sanctioned statistical data dumps, or Carl Malamud’s unofficial work at public.resource.org) can empower motivated citizens, but the state will continue to maintain instances of information asymmetry that in turn maintain its power and credibility.

I guess all I’m saying is that I don’t see this issue to be as clear as current rhetorical claims are making it out to be.

There are techno-utopians who look at Wikileaks as a panacea and means toward open government, but the fact is that the various agencies of the state (“various” because they don’t always share among themselves) have their own internal darknets, not all of them digital, for their nastiest secrets. There’s certain asymmetric information that will never end up in a data dump.

So even though Wikileaks is accomplishing what it set out to do in general terms (releasing mildly embarrassing stuff, an affront in and of itself that triggers an auto-immune response), it’s not going to ever measure up to the rhetoric.  Your skepticism is definitely warranted.

Comment #35: Gracchus.  on  12/16  at  04:22 PM

Dana, I actually know someone who went temporarily insane in solitary confinement. You don’t know shit, except what you’ve been taught to parrot.

My brother in law was locked up in a Cuban prison for about 8 months, cold, starving, scared, with little Spanish. But the very worst thing he recalls is when he was put in solitary confinement. He thinks it was for about a week, but can’t be sure. He can’t be sure, because he remembers how his mind began to slip after about 2 days. He remembers it as the most horrific experience of his life: the total loneliness, the pull into madness, the way his mind began to feed on itself in desperate need for companionship and something to do.

Solitary confinement isn’t torture the same way waterboarding isn’t torture: by redefinition of our glorious authoritarian overlords.

Thanks for playing. You lose, in so many ways…..

Comment #36: means are the ends  on  12/16  at  04:29 PM

I really dont like Assange. I think he’s a bully, a pig and jeopardizes our troops by leaking pertinent information which couldve killed them. I think his philosophy goes too far and its a result of his arrogance and BS flying in his head. Not to mention but in America we need certain things to be secret because this is how we stratgize and operate. I’m not for keeping corrupt things secret but Assange clearly doesnt tell the difference between the two. I think he likes the attention and publicity. I would be happy if he’d fuck off and as a liberal I’m not supporting him. Dont know why its ‘in vogue’ to support him; perhaps some sort of romantic liberal abstract ideology that looks stupid upon closer inspection but I’m sick of his bullshit!

Comment #37: BeanS  on  12/16  at  05:02 PM

#36,
Wouldnt cause me problems. Depends on the person. Perhaps it was really due to the stress and worry of being in a cuban prison, not knowing how long it was going to last and the lack of quality environment (ie, like did they have rats eating at his arm).

Comment #38: BeanS  on  12/16  at  05:06 PM

Wouldnt cause me problems.

Riiiiiiight.

You do realise that most people are embarassed to advertise themselves as ignorant in public, right?

Comment #39: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/16  at  05:16 PM

I’ve been at the point for a number of years where I fully expect people in power or people with some sort of high goals or ambition to be colossal assholes. There are exceptions of course. But generally speaking, the ego and the personality type it requires to reach those levels are going to result in all sorts of bad behavior.

Comment #40: Karmakin  on  12/16  at  05:25 PM

Not that the martyr/decoy strategy you lay out isn’t equally probable or mutually exclusive. Egotism often figures into that kind of thing, too.

I agree - I think Assange’s ego has to be through the roof.  We’re talking about someone who has decided to take on the governments of the world - most notably the US government.  You don’t do that without an ego the size of Manhattan.  At a minimum.

And that’s why I think the martyr/decoy strategy would appeal to him as well.  He has to know what the general strategy of the folks in power in the US is - i.e. that they concentrate on the people at the top and have this belief that if they can just find the head of the snake and cut it off, the rest of the movement will be stopped, see our government’s action against al-Qaeda for the most glaring examples.  And so putting himself out there for the government to target is the obvious thing to do.  It’s telling to me that WikiLeaks ran for years and Assange was an unknown during that time - it was really only when the Manning leaks came through and WikiLeaks began posting stuff that would get serious blowback from the US government that Assange began his public outings to the press and made himself the face of WikiLeaks.  That means something - though it might just mean he’s a publicity hound.

One thing I’m sure of is that he’s not a moron.

I agree.  The man is not stupid.  I guess to me it’s a question of how much of a Machiavellian chessmaster I’m willing to believe he is - or how much of a martyr complex I’m willing to believe he has.

Comment #41: NonyNony  on  12/16  at  05:32 PM

#38 Wow: you lose the reading comprehension test. He was there for about 8 months, remember.

Although it was stressful, and physically debilitating to the point where he still has medical problems to this day stemming from that time, he was in solitary only a very brief part of that time. It is the solitary that gives him nightmares, dear.

He has many tales of how he was given mentoring, help, blankets, food, Spanish lessons, and wonderful companionship by the other (usually older political) prisoners there, some of whom he regards as living saints. He knew that without their help and care he would have quickly died.

Again, the isolation was what was horrific. You obviously can’t imagine it. Just like a bit of sleep deprivation doesn’t sound that bad, but again, it’s torture.

A true failure of empathy and humanity. I give thanks that I am not like that.

Comment #42: means are the ends  on  12/16  at  05:41 PM

#38, And again, I don’t usually pull the “I have a Ph.D. in psychology and you don’t” card, but actually, yes:

It WOULD cause you problems.

Many, many problems. IF you are human, solitary confinement has been found to cause extreme distress in a relatively short time. That is why it is used as a threat and coercion device, and as torture around the world.

There are many studies. Educate yourself.

You are not above your physical and mental programming as a human being. You would be surprised how incredibly quickly any person—that is, any person at all—can be broken utterly. And in simple, prosaic ways that can be made to sound relatively innocent.

Comment #43: means are the ends  on  12/16  at  05:47 PM

Those who oppose wikileaks and support the solitary confinement of Manning should read Every Man Dies Alone, by Hans Fallada.  It’s a fictionalized, but close to real life, account of daily affairs for ordinary Germans (i.e., neither specifically persecuted as the Jews, nor specially favored as party members) under Hitler’s authoritarian regime.  The author lived in Germany during that time and wrote this novel shortly thereafter.  An English translation came out in the past couple of years, and it should be required reading for any American who argues that the U.S. government needs/deserves greater obeisance and control.

Comment #44: blondie  on  12/16  at  05:51 PM

Wouldnt cause me problems. Depends on the person.

Wouldn’t cause me problems either. I mean, I’ve spent entire 3-day weekends just hanging out at home by myself—that’s pretty much identical to solitary confinement, right?

Comment #45: Bagelsan  on  12/16  at  06:06 PM

Just like a bit of sleep deprivation doesn’t sound that bad, but again, it’s torture.

Oh come on, now you’re just being a wuss! I’ve totally pulled all-nighters no prob! And I’ll bet BeanS has too. Exactly the same thing.

Comment #46: Bagelsan  on  12/16  at  06:10 PM

oh bean -

solitary is just a teensy bit different then being all comfer cozers on your couch with a fleece blanket for the weekend.  Just a little, though.

Comment #47: kitten parade  on  12/16  at  07:20 PM

I was sleep deprived for about 48-72 hours and that’s the worst experience of my life. I was in a state of heightened anxiety and every noise in the house triggered a fight or flight response. I even thought I was hearing voices at times (I knew they weren’t real but the idea of going crazy was itself anxiety-inducing).

And in my case it was semi-willingly that I entered that state (stupid college years). I can’t think of how horrible it must be to have that inflicted on you against your will.

Comment #48: BlackBloc  on  12/16  at  08:01 PM

I want to know what the value is in keeping secrets from our soldiers and public servants?

Aren’t they the ones who’re supposed to know the secrets, and everyone else ought not know?  Not the other way around?

Comment #49: Crissa  on  12/16  at  08:47 PM

#39
And this is why I wonder why you are so open about yours

Comment #50: BeanS  on  12/16  at  09:16 PM

It was only for a week #42 not 8 months. I’ve been known to lock myself away for a week from any human contact (easy one for you-please oblige yourself) and write away a storm. No facebook, cell calls, nothing…..family/friends are used to it now, but I’ve done it-and loved it. I think it depends on personalities and other mental factors than simply the isolation.

Comment #51: BeanS  on  12/16  at  09:23 PM

#48 It wasnt sleep deprivation it was isolation. He was allowed to sleep (guess it was a cell, a bed and three squares a day?). Sleep deprivation IS torture.

Comment #52: BeanS  on  12/16  at  09:25 PM

Ha ha #45-47

What about people that hike the Appalachian Trail? That takes 6 months and they often dont see any human for weeks at a time, often sleeping on the ground and dealing with nature. Again also this only reiterates what I’ve said that its other factors than simply the isolation-like being in a cell in Cuba and having guards control your time.

Comment #53: BeanS  on  12/16  at  09:31 PM

#49 crissa,
I’m referring to things that expose their plans, like letting leak where they are going to be in 1 month and what their plans are. That kills soldiers when enemies get hold of it. Killing soldiers doesnt help them. I refuse to see only the positive of wikileaks and not also see the negative of his philosophy. Have you not heard at all of the Afghanistan informants and how their lives were jeopardized?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38441360/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

“The leaking of 90,000 U.S. intelligence documents has put hundreds of Afghan lives at risk because the files identify informants working with NATO forces, The Times of London reported on Wednesday.
In just two hours of searching the WikiLeaks archive, reporters found the names, villages, and fathers’ names of dozens of Afghans credited with providing intelligence to U.S. forces, the paper said”

Comment #54: BeanS  on  12/16  at  10:01 PM

#51 Again, not the same at all.

I am a person who delights in solitude. There is actually no one I prefer to my own company, despite having a husband and children. However, I am rock-solid sure that confined to a cell, against my will, with no social input at all, I would begin to drift and then fall apart.

You think you would be fine. But it’s not the same as a nice cabin alone, with your preferred activity, which sounds really delightful.

And if solitary itself didn’t seem to work quickly enough (unlikely) I’m sure they’d just crank up the noise and keep you from sleeping. Or find that you have some medical problem that requires “medication” whose side-effects just happen to be paranoia and/or suicidality (done at Gitmo!).

However, I’m really not impressed by all the armchair warriors who are so very sure that they alone can succeed where everyone else has failed. There are so many techniques that can be used that leave no marks at all, yet leave one scarred for life.  So many ‘helpful’ things can be done…..

You just hold on to that idea that you are impervious and superior, Galt.

Comment #55: means are the ends  on  12/16  at  10:21 PM

I would join on the Dana bashing (fun as always) but there are plenty of liberals repeating exactly what he is saying because Glenn Greenwald said it was torture and implied that Obama was in some way responsible (something about him being commander in chief, i dunno).

As far as Wikileaks, haven’t SS numbers and informants’ names been released as well? I still don’t understand the ‘blanket’ nature of these. Maybe the BP one spurred the DOJ to action, but was there anything of value?

I know the elite love their secrecy - we have heard the notion that confidentialty is usually more about CYA than national security, but I don’t see what this really does to change it. Maybe they email less?

It seems like an adolescent-anarchist-rebellious fuck the world! thing rather than a concerted effort to do anything political.

Comment #56: bay of arizona  on  12/17  at  01:11 AM

And this is why I wonder why you are so open about yours

I’m not the one spouting crap pulled from his ass about the effects of solitary confinement.

You are.

Comment #57: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/17  at  01:48 AM

#57,
Thanks phoenician for assuming ON A FEMINIST BLOG that I’m a male. You mean her. Not to mention but clearly its you pulling crap out of their ass here all the while playing up the lame card by talking about portraying themselves as ignorant. So I shall toss back at you this:

You do realize that most people are embarrassed to advertse themselves as ignorant in public, right


Female phoenician, I’m a female.

Comment #58: BeanS  on  12/17  at  02:06 AM

Agreed #56. Hypothetically what if Feminists were going to secretly release one of those women prisoners to save her from being stoned to death and wikileaks published their plans? What if it was some environmental strategy, ect, ect? Assange sounds like a mental capital A asshole that cares more about Hisself than anything else. Liberals seem a bit daft to believe its for any deeper cause than blowing up Assange’s delusions about himself-at everyone elses expense.

Comment #59: BeanS  on  12/17  at  02:09 AM

#55,
Seriously you all; f*ck the solitary isolation cell meme! Totally O-V-E-R it!Come on now, back to the scheduled programming…..

Comment #60: BeanS  on  12/17  at  02:13 AM

Hello BeanS, please read the link I posted in comment #26 and, if you’re not convinced, please read “Brainwash” by Dominic Streatfeild. Skip to the bits on solitary confinement if you wish. Also, please post a reliable source of a soldier being killed because of WikiLeaks.

Comment #61: gotthatpma  on  12/17  at  04:15 AM

Wikileaks just seems like and an elite version of Anonymous. Seedy, cruel, and highly suspect, it’s like the mad dog you keep on hand for really bad cases. I do think governments need a little secrecy in order to do their jobs (that is the things we put/keep them in power for not the things they think they should do) but I think they need something to keep them on their toes about it. There should always be a struggle over who needs to know what and with the war, the patriot act, and the Big Brother mentality they spawned the guys in black suits have had it a little too easy these past few years. I believe that Wikileaks is the agent of a much needed shake up and I support it in that effort. But I also think it’s a nasty practice that can do a lot of harm if not kept on a tight leash.

@BeanS: I’m a pretty solitary person, prone to dropping off the grid for days if not weeks at a time. I lasted four days in solitary confinement and that was a research study with comfortable rooms, regular meals, and no one intentionally trying to break me down.

Comment #62: scrumby  on  12/17  at  05:34 AM

Thanks phoenician for assuming ON A FEMINIST BLOG that I’m a male. You mean her.

Mea culpa.

Not to mention but clearly its you pulling crap out of their ass here

Bullshit.  The links show authority after authority deciding that solitary confinement is torture, and you have presented nothing but your arguement ad anum.

Comment #63: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/17  at  05:43 AM

@55: “Fuck the world” IS a political statement…

Comment #64: BlackBloc  on  12/17  at  09:12 AM

I guess it’s a triumph for femnism in a way when you can’t tell whether people posting as privileged exceptionalist jerkwads with no apparent sense of empathy or the importance of consent are male or female…

And yeah, the idea that it’s espionage to publish stuff like what most of the leaks have been, just because the leaker didn’t have high enough rank or didn’t belong to the right party, shows just how crazy-authoritarian the “norm” has become.

Comment #65: paul  on  12/17  at  12:16 PM

As I posted on a previous comment thread, I still can’t decide if BeanS is for real.

Comment #66: helen w. h.  on  12/17  at  04:00 PM

I’m leaning toward troll but it’s an important conversation anyway.

Comment #67: gotthatpma  on  12/17  at  04:28 PM

Holy shit you guys….what did I say; fuck the fucking cell meme people! Spread the word like an STD. Not interested.

Comment #68: BeanS  on  12/17  at  05:53 PM

I could be wrong, but I don’t remember much outcry from anybody about solitary in the blogosphere until Manning was put in it.

Didn’t people even say Supermax was the place convicted terrorists should go instead of Guantanamo? What do you think they do there? Eric Rudolph wrote a letter years ago saying Supermax is making him go insane.

Comment #69: Ben D.  on  12/17  at  06:04 PM

How can you “go” somewhere you already are?

Comment #70: liberalrob  on  12/17  at  06:11 PM

How can you “go” somewhere you already are?
Comment #70: liberalrob on 12/17 at 05:11 PM

I meant the ones who are not there, but at Gitmo, like KSM et al.

Comment #71: Ben D.  on  12/17  at  06:17 PM

#61,
Oh sorry gotthatpma it doesnt matter that informants in Afghanistan had their lives threatend but they actually have to die until you care? Seriously? The fact that they could release private information that can sacrifice lives, including BTW liberal lives, strategies and plans is apparently not enough for you. They have to be dead I guess untill you see the true issue here? Well heres one on how the Taliban are now hunting down the exposed informants-so you may get your death soon.


“We will investigate through our own secret service whether the people mentioned are really spies working for the U.S. If they are U.S. spies, then we know how to punish them.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/07/30/2010-07-30_taliban_in_afghanistan_says_they_will_target_informants_outed_by_wikileaks_for_w.html#ixzz18PEaexQs”

Also what could be found out via the leaking of information about informants is weapons shipments, military strategy and meetings of large gatherings of Afghanistani’s (which is great for terrorism becuz u blow up lots of people)

How selfish do you have to be to not see how outrageous his philosophy and delusions about himself are? If you were a soldier or an informant in Afghanistan I’m sure you’d be able to see the issue here.

Comment #72: BeanS  on  12/17  at  06:20 PM

Government actions that can only occur through secrecy are by their very nature illegitimate. Case in point: if I was a soldier or informant in Afghanistan, I’d be part of an illegitimate imperialist invasion and helping to maintain the corrupt Karzai administation. So, you know, whatever.

If there were more sites like WikiLeaks and if 100% government transparency was the order of the day, we probably wouldn’t be stuck in illegitimate wars in the first place.

Comment #73: BlackBloc  on  12/17  at  07:07 PM

Yeah, I actually shouldn’t have even put that up there since I pretty much agree with how BlackBloc feels. It really pains me to say it, especially since I have a friend who just got back from Afghanistan, but their presence is an illegitimate intrusion onto foreign soil which is legitimately punishable by force from the occupied nation.

Comment #74: gotthatpma  on  12/17  at  07:49 PM

As for #69, that’s true, but it misses the point. Many people are unaware of human rights issue X until someone on their “team” is affected by it. There isn’t anything sinister about that. I had just as much of a problem with solitary confinement before Manning was dumped in it, but that’s because I have a background in juvenile justice and was well are of how frequently it’s applied.

Comment #75: gotthatpma  on  12/17  at  07:51 PM

Ben D.: “Eric Rudolph wrote a letter years ago saying Supermax is making him go insane.”

liberalrob: “How can you “go” somewhere you already are?”

Ben D.: “I meant the ones who are not there, but at Gitmo, like KSM et al.”

Wasn’t liberalrob making a joke, that Rudolph was already insane so how could being in Supermax make him what he already was?  Or am I denser than usual on a lazy Friday afternoon?...

Comment #76: MikeEss  on  12/17  at  09:07 PM

No, Mike, I’m the one whose dense. I didn’t get the joke! Sorry, It’s been a long week for me!

Still even a terrorist shitstain like Eric Rudolph shouldn’t be subjected to solitary confinement.

Comment #77: Ben D.  on  12/17  at  11:27 PM

Ok, Dana insists Manning’s treatment isn’t torture and therefore ok and legal.

The problem, Dana, is this: any treatment of a suspect being held in custody while awaiting trial that is punitive at all is a direct violation of the UCMJ.  If legality really matters to you; I suspect it doesn’t matter one whit.

Manning hasn’t been tried. Any punishment meted out to a suspect awaiting trial, other than for disciplinary infractions while being held, is illegal.

Comment #78: Chocolate Covered Cotton  on  12/18  at  02:53 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.