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Next entry: I feel the internets needs this today Previous entry: Stick a fork in them, they’ll say they’re done

Shorter NY Times: Screw the stats, women are desperate

I’ll confess; when this article came out in the NY Times about how more marriages are ones where the wife makes more/has more education, I didn’t read it.  I thought, “Duh.”  I read Matt write about it, and made fun of the wingnut in his comment thread who tried to claim that women don’t pay taxes, and then went off on a baffling attempt to backtrack while still maintaining that women are an inferior sex who shouldn’t earn money.  I appreciated the graphs Matt put up that demonstrated that equality is far from here:

I noted that the headline of the Times article implied that women sit on a shelf waiting to be picked, while men are the only ones making active choices: “More Men Marrying Wealthier Women “.  We’ll marry anyone who asks, amirite, ladies? Gotta get that validation bling!  But I thought to myself, “Well, they need an active verb, and headlines are hard to write, and so whatever.”  Should have realized that even when the actual story contradicts their anti-feminist narrative, the NY Times will trot out an anti-feminist narrative.

So, while the story should have been, “Turns out some men aren’t such huge wimps that they need to have a woman around who is purposefully subjugated in order to make them feel big.”  The story is, “These stupid statistics say that a lot of men are perfectly capable of accepting that women have money, education, and ambition, but we don’t believe those stupid numbers.”  Every single woman they interview for the anecdotal color aspects of the story is a single woman whose intelligence, income, and education supposedly prevents her from dating.  So the conclusion is, “Don’t believe the numbers.  You can have love or your career, but you can’t have both, ladies.”

If you think I’m kidding, that’s literally the conclusion paragraph in the story:

Ms. Zielinski, the fashion stylist, said her best friend, a man, told her once: “ ‘You are confident, have good credit, own your own business, travel around the world and are self-sufficient. What man is going to want you?’ He laughed, but I found that pretty depressing.”

They even managed to work in the implication that this woman is stuck in the Friend Zone, though honestly my experience is that women with lots of male friends tend not to want for dates, though of course, YMMV. 

The author Sam Roberts did manage to interview Stephanie Coontz as the voice of reason, and she pointed out obvious stuff, such as men benefit when their wives make more money, because their standard of living goes up as well.  And that women with college degrees are more, not less likely to get married.  And that men generally benefit more from marriage and logically want marriage more.  And then basically Roberts argues that’s not what he’s hearing—-trust in stereotypes about lonely cat ladies whose college degrees may have seemed like a good idea, but don’t keep you warm at night.

But some women find that the dating pressures are intense. Syreeta McFadden, a 35-year-old Columbia and Sarah Lawrence graduate who is between jobs after working in real estate development, said: “With men of any ethnic group, it’s a little intimidating for them to encounter smart women. Money is tricky.

“But, I think for me, it comes down to compatibility,” Ms. McFadden said. “Can you grow with me? Or as my genius friend the textile designer says, she asks on first dates or meeting men in bars, ‘Do you have a passport and a library card?’ ”

Elaine Richardson, who is in her 50s, is divorced and owns a health care consulting firm in Westchester, said that men “call you high maintenance if you look like you don’t need anyone to take care of you.”

Thus, the problem with the game of anecdotal evidence—-it’s always more vivid and always on hand.  Education and money make you more eligible as a rule, but that doesn’t mean everyone who has it is beating ‘em off with a stick.  And so you can totally find someone who thinks that they aren’t getting the action they believe they should, and use them as a counterpoint.  And since the human mind is more attracted to narrative than statistics, most people who read this story, a week out, will probably remember it being about how women with college educations can’t find mates. 

There was another way to write up this story.  I’ll bet you could find more than one educated, high-earning woman who bought the hype that she was selling out her love life for her ambition, only to find her true love who thought that her education and her status made her a catch.  Or you could find a couple where the wife’s high-earning job made it possible for the husband to rethink his career path, take some risks and go without making money for awhile, and have him talk about that with gratitude.  Or you could interview a stay-at-home dad.  You could interview random dudes who say that they’d find it a drag to have to pay for every date.  These people aren’t any harder to find than someone who’ll complain that her heavy wallet makes her hard to date.  I’ll bet a lot of them are actually pretty easy to find.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:43 PM • (128) Comments

NPR had a much more balanced version of this story - some of their anecdotal women found it difficult, some of their anecdotal men thought it was the greatest thing since sliced toast. And they managed to talk honestly about how they were affected by the man-as-provider cultural pressure without pretending that, hey ladies, you better not make more money or you will DIE ALONE WITH YOUR CATS!!!!11!

Comment #1: mythago  on  01/20  at  06:58 PM

My 14 year old son and I were discussing a Weezer song where they guy hopes that the woman will make her move because he doesn’t have all night.

My boy said that he hopes any female he shares his life with will propose to him because he’s doesn’t think he’ll be good at decisions like that.  I pointed out to him that the whole proposal thing is really dated anyway, because such things should be the result of a two-party negotiation and decision.

He agreed that made sense, then rehashed the little love story about “deciding to buy matching rings” = “deciding to get married” that our gay friends told us when we were over at dinner last weekend.

(somewhere, fundyfuses are blowing ...)

Comment #2: Ms Kate  on  01/20  at  07:03 PM

Taking the standards of the Style section and applying them to a stats piece in the National section sounds like a sure-fire strategy for the NYT to retain readers once they put browsing limits on their Web content—or at least it would be if they were competing with a pay-walled NY Observer.

Note to the NYT national desk: every bloody story doesn’t need these cute little human-interest stories. Give us the data, give us the expert analysis, and let us contribute our own useless anecdotes in the article’s comment section.

Comment #3: Gracchus.  on  01/20  at  07:04 PM

Elaine Richardson, who is in her 50s, is divorced and owns a health care consulting firm in Westchester, said that men “call you high maintenance if you look like you don’t need anyone to take care of you.”

Heh.  Because they can’t just give you a sparkly bit of jewelry or take you to dinner and depend on that making you all starry-eyed.  They have to actually bring something non-monetary to the table.

It’s amusing, or frustrating, or something, that the twin complaints of MRAs seem to be “bitches just want to trick you into a relationship to get your money” and “bitches don’t appreciate the money they always whine about you not communicating with them which we all know is impossible.”  Women can’t win.

Or as my genius friend the textile designer says, she asks on first dates or meeting men in bars, ‘Do you have a passport and a library card?’ ”

The library card, maybe, but the passport?  Not everyone can afford international travel or makes it a priority.

Comment #4: oldfeminist  on  01/20  at  07:05 PM

Need I mention that all this bullshit is predicated on the perceived NEED to have a man in your life at all times, no matter what?  That, somehow, waiting for someone that fits right isn’t acceptable?

Comment #5: Ms Kate  on  01/20  at  07:06 PM

The library card, maybe, but the passport?  Not everyone can afford international travel or makes it a priority.

Fine, but she wants someone who does make it a priority. Gotta narrow down the pool somehow—you can’t date everyone.

Comment #6: Well, what?  on  01/20  at  07:18 PM

Ms. Zielinski, the fashion stylist, said her best friend, a man, told her once: “ ‘You are confident, have good credit, own your own business, travel around the world and are self-sufficient. What man is going to want you?’ He laughed, but I found that pretty depressing.”

She stayed friends with that guy, huh?

Because they can’t just give you a sparkly bit of jewelry or take you to dinner and depend on that making you all starry-eyed.  They have to actually bring something non-monetary to the table.

My father was exactly like this.  He was married five times.  Two of his wives were disinterested in money and wanted love and companionship from him.  The other three were money grubbers to various degrees.  Guess which marriages he threw in the toilet and which he was desperate to maintain.  Oftentimes, just buying someone off is easier than being a good partner.

Comment #7: keshmeshi  on  01/20  at  07:22 PM

... you will DIE ALONE WITH YOUR CATS!!!!11!

uh, this is bad?

Comment #8: llewelly  on  01/20  at  07:23 PM

As usual, my response to reading this story and others of its kind is, “Thank god I’m a lesbian and don’t have to deal with any of that crap”.

Comment #9: BadKitty  on  01/20  at  07:38 PM

Something about that “native-born 30- to 44-year-olds” smells kinda fishy to me. I get that no poll is going to be perfectly inclusive, but that seems like a weirdly small subset of the population. Maybe I’m wrong—can a statistician help me out?

Comment #10: alexandria  on  01/20  at  07:41 PM

She stayed friends with that guy, huh?

Maybe he was snarking on male insecurity…I hope.

men “call you high maintenance if you look like you don’t need anyone to take care of you.”

LOGIC FAIL

Comment #11: Sour Kraut  on  01/20  at  07:42 PM

First thought when I read that article was that it did a pretty good job explaining why the men who are afraid of women who earn money are so resentful.  They are living on half the income as the people they are so busy hating.  Man- that’s gotta suck.  That’s going to fuel a lot of resentment, all those couples breaking those arbitrary rules and being better off for it.

Comment #12: drachonfire  on  01/20  at  07:57 PM

Need I mention that all this bullshit is predicated on the perceived NEED to have a man in your life at all times, no matter what?

The underlying assumption to these stories is that women are fundamentally so irritating that men can take ‘em or leave ‘em—-they’re nice for pussy, but you’re not going to break your back—-but women need men.  Thus, men hold all the cards.  It is, of course, bullshit.  Women don’t need men any more than men need women, and as Coontz points out, there’s actually a lot more that men get from relationships than vice versa, though ideally everyone gets companionship and love.  Men just also get better career prospects, better health and more leisure time as a value add.

Comment #13: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/20  at  08:01 PM

drachon, the stats the story was built around were about how men were increasingly NOT threatened, and yet all their interest was in shoring up the idea that they are, to scare women into being grabby and desperate.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/20  at  08:03 PM

[T]he story should have been, “Turns out some men aren’t such huge wimps that they need to have a woman around who is purposefully subjugated in order to make them feel big.”

No wai! Those d00ds’ dicks totally fell off!

Comment #15: PhysioProf  on  01/20  at  08:09 PM

Got to the graphs and have to comment before finishing.  As usual, I skew the data.  I make more money than my spouse (at the moment and for the last 5 years or so); but he has a BSG, a BSME (2 undergrad degrees) and an MS, while I have a BA and a BSCE.

Comment #16: helen w. h.  on  01/20  at  08:58 PM

Gee, got to the end and what do I find, my spouse and I would meet a bunch of your criteria for other people they could have interviewed.  I’m even in the right age group! 
Spouse was a stay at home dad 18 months between his degree #1 and #2.  It drove him crazy, but not as crazy as it would have driven me.  Besides I had a job with insurance, kind of important when you have two young kids.
When he started having health problems, my being employed in a job that paid enough to live on made it possible for him to regroup and change direction, and not have to kill himself to do so on a short deadline.  As he was having heart issues, I mean that literally.
My staying in school and then going back to school seemed as important to him as it was to me.

Comment #17: helen w. h.  on  01/20  at  09:13 PM

trust in stereotypes about lonely cat ladies whose college degrees may have seemed like a good idea, but don’t keep you warm at night.

See, this is why you buy blankets and comforters. Also, let the cat sleep on the bed.

Comment #18: StarStorm  on  01/20  at  09:17 PM

Alexandra: Not a statistican, but I assume that the stories of younger people, older people and immigrants would have been so different from native-born 30 to 44 years olds as to make the data useless. You always try to compare groups which are reasonably similar in the traits you are not currently looking at.

Comment #19: inge  on  01/20  at  09:26 PM

@Alexandria #10
I think they chose that subset because they were trying to compare with 1970, and immigration patterns have shifted enough since then that cultural factors from the birth country would overwhelm anything else in the data.
Age-wise, the Pew study said it was because that was the age cohort that they expected to have first-time marriages be in (they were mainly comparing married vs. unmarried and their earning power). Including younger or older folks starts getting a lot of confounding variables around their marital status (and there’s certainly plenty already).
The original study is actually pretty good, I’d recommend reading it:
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1466/economics-marriage-rise-of-wives

Comment #20: jalmondale  on  01/20  at  09:33 PM

What’s sort of interesting to me is that the can’t-find-a-spouse reasons seem to me to be fairly gender-neutral. Owning your own business and spending oodles of the year on the road is a bad recipe for a longterm relationship either way.

Comment #21: paul  on  01/20  at  09:58 PM

Amanda- I find stories are never really about what the reporter wants to say.  Ever.  It’s as if to be a reporter you have to have an allergy to understanding what is actually going on, and make something up to fill pages.

Comment #22: drachonfire  on  01/20  at  10:08 PM

The library card, maybe, but the passport?  Not everyone can afford international travel or makes it a priority.

Unfortunately, they are not the best filters to guarantee someone who is well-read, curious about the world, and cosmopolitan. 

Passports can be possessed by anyone who can fork over the appropriate fees and has enough wealth to travel…..meaning rich/middle-class incurious louts can still get one.  Witnessed too many examples on my trips to Taiwan and China where there were plenty of US tourists who were walking stereotypes of the “Ugly American” with the unbelievable stupidity, prejudice, and closed-mindedness to match.  rolleyes

As for library cards….that may have been true in the not-so-distant past.  Nowadays, plenty of people get library cards not necessarily to engage in some deep reading, but as a substitute for renting movies, audio CDs, and multimedia games.  There are also plenty of close-minded and non-cosmopolitan folks who also happen to be heavy readers…..

Moreover, with public library budgets being cut, they are increasingly forced to stock books which aren’t exactly considered “deep reading” type material because those are the books which have the most circulation demand.

Comment #23: exholt  on  01/20  at  11:08 PM

Not everyone can afford international travel or makes it a priority.

Then again, from New York, both Toronto and Montreal are a car trip or a cheap flight away.  The Caribbean and Central America are also very affordable from here, just as a function of demand.  And back a few years ago when airfares were cheaper, the dollar was worth something, and everywhere worth visiting hadn’t adopted the Euro, Europe was really not all that crazy either.

Comment #24: The Opoponax  on  01/20  at  11:45 PM

well, my wife is more educated than I am (two masters’ degrees), and has a better paying job (long-tenured high school teacher; she out-earns me by maybe 5k a year). This bothers neither of us a bit. I work fewer hours, and am able to see the kids off in the morning, and occasionally pick them up in the afternoon if she’s busy or has PT conferences. Among my age cohort (I’m 38) this is hardly worth mentioning.

Comment #25: Norsecats  on  01/20  at  11:54 PM

Then again, from New York, both Toronto and Montreal are a car trip or a cheap flight away.  The Caribbean and Central America are also very affordable from here, just as a function of demand.  And back a few years ago when airfares were cheaper, the dollar was worth something, and everywhere worth visiting hadn’t adopted the Euro, Europe was really not all that crazy either.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider “cheap”?

I don’t know about you…but the only people I know who are taking relaxing vacations in the Caribbean these days are trust-fund kiddies and upper/middle class people who managed to keep themselves out of the red and have substantial savings.  Everyone else is so scared of being next that going on vacations to such locales is the last thing on their minds atm.

Comment #26: exholt  on  01/21  at  12:15 AM

@ exholt - you forgot Martha Coakley!

Comment #27: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  12:17 AM

I don’t care about this.  If there are women who aren’t rejecting this out of hand, that’s their problem.  I got sick of this kind of thing a long time ago.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, beats having your own credit cards, your own car, your own money.  I have lived both lives, and I know it.

I love being me, and I could give a shit what the NY Times or anyone else thinks about it.  And if anything ever happened to my bf, who loves me just the way I am, then it’d be a good long time before I’d get another one.  they have to fit certain criteria of MINE.  Not the other way around.  And I have a pretty long list, beginning with, you must be a feminist and I can smell a phony one a mile off.  And I’d have no, zero, no, problem being alone. I love my own company.  The only person I ever miss is my bf…and my niece and nephew.  good thing none of those three people are ever gone for long. 


This is a crock of insecure BS and it touches me not at all.

Comment #28: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  12:21 AM

I make a lot more than my husband.  I am pretty sure my husband would be willing to give the NYT a quote about how great it is that his wife’s salary allows him to pursue the non-profit career of his dreams without money worries.

Comment #29: Laurie  on  01/21  at  12:30 AM

I’m so glad to see a woman say that her SO is doing something other than being a stay at home husband.  As if raising children is the only valid reason anyone decides not to pursue a high powered, or highly profitable career?

There you go, a non profit.  Or how about, someone stays home because they are an academic and they’re writing a book, or a theory, or whatever.  I mean, who really gives a crap as long as it works for the two people involved?  Not everyone is ambitious, when that word is solely defined by Capitalism, and it’s not a crime.  Far from it.

Comment #30: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  12:39 AM

men “call you high maintenance if you look like you don’t need anyone to take care of you.”
LOGIC FAIL

I was describing my apartment to a, let’s say, rather old-school guy once, and I had to make it clear to him that I was in the 2-bedroom building, not the 1-bedroom building.  “Wow,” he said, “Two bedrooms?  You’re expensive.”  (The difference is about $50/month.  He himself has zero bedrooms.)  I just said it was OK since I paid for myself.  He didn’t really have an answer prepared for that.  The strange thing was he knew I had a roommate, so if he thought I only had one bedroom, then he was assuming a much sexier and more exciting relationship than we actually have.  The other people who make that assumption are my roommate’s adolescent brothers.

Out of curiosity, what do you consider “cheap”?
I don’t know about you…but the only people I know who are taking relaxing vacations in the Caribbean these days are trust-fund kiddies and upper/middle class people who managed to keep themselves out of the red and have substantial savings.

These are people being quoted in the New York Times.  I’m pretty sure it doesn’t matter what any Pandagonian considers cheap.  That said, a friend of mine was able to get from Cleveland to some island or another down there for $90/person for the weekend, all kinds of crazy crap included.  Out of the range of many people, sure, but not unreasonable for people whose affairs are in order and aren’t scared shitless of losing their jobs.  The deals are out there for people in a position to take them.

Comment #31: Kyso K  on  01/21  at  02:12 AM

I’m so glad to see a woman say that her SO is doing something other than being a stay at home husband.  As if raising children is the only valid reason anyone decides not to pursue a high powered, or highly profitable career?.

When you’re a woman it’s just assumed that if you’re not interested in marriage and children you must be a hard charging careerist.  The notion of women just wanting to fuck off and do nothing is unthinkable.  The only good woman is a busy woman.

Comment #32: DonnaDiva  on  01/21  at  02:13 AM

30 years old is where the disparity in men and women’s pay starts showing; at 45 is when it’s highly glaring.  Older people also grew up in different times.

Immigrants tend to follow - intentionally or not - more patriarchal mores.  So that’d obscure any changes over time.

Comment #33: Crissa  on  01/21  at  02:38 AM

Heh. Well, speaking of anecdotes, my very hairy karate teacher with very traditional views of marriage/relationships was very happy to have his wife earning the money while he went to school to become a massage therapist. He now makes great money, and he is very well aware that there’s no way he and his family would be as financially well-off as they are now if his wife wasn’t well educated with a good income.

For myself, I left halfway through my undergrad music degree to go to Japan so my wife can get her PhD. Yeah, I spent the first month staying home looking after the kids (they’re in daycare now) and I’m still unemployed, which means I’m taking care of the house, cooking cleaning, etc. while my wife is off at school.

And my father did all the cooking and cleaning, and looked after me and my brother while we were growing up. And I know for a fact that my dad (before he was married) was quite the lady’s man; not some rough macho type, but definitely successful. Which is how we measure masculinity, right? By number of conquests, or whatever (yes, I am being sarcastic, but this is the internet so I should let people know)?

So yeah. That’s three strong marriages and happy families where, temporarily or no, the wife has earned more money than her husband and not really thought it was a big deal, except to think how lucky they are to have a spouse who’s their equal. Four, if you count my friends who live together and aren’t married; she owns the house they live in by herself (his name not on title), earns the majority of their money by far, and has the better education.

Oddly, so far as I know, nobody’s dick fell off. The only sad thing is that with less education, I still typically earn slightly more than my wife when I’m working.

Comment #34: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  01/21  at  02:45 AM

Several commenters on that story, including me, pointed out the weird misogynist spin they put on the statistics. Lots of commenters mentioned being IN a marriage where the woman earned more than the man and how it was working out just fine.

And inevitably, some douchebag commenter had to trot out that David Buss and use his lame-ass work to explain that the story proved what David Buss always says - that women just NATURALLY want men who earn more than them.

Comment #35: Nancy  on  01/21  at  03:21 AM

I’m glad a couple of other people picked up on the passport thing.  I’ve never cared much for the argument that not having a passport is evidence that one is insular/xenophobic/stupid/etc.  Travel - especially international travel - is still a relative luxury, even if more people can do it now than was the case in the past.  I think a lot of middle- and upper middle-class people forget that.  Bagging on people who don’t have passports often carries a whiff of classism.

And it’s not just a matter of financial capital; cultural capital helps too, and that’s something that also tends to be stratified by class.

That said, it’s that woman’s right to use having/not having a passport as a way to screen potential dates.  I don’t think that makes her bad.  I probably wouldn’t want to date someone who did that, but I’m sure there are plenty of people who would.

Comment #36: Linnaeus  on  01/21  at  03:31 AM

It’s not that lacking a passport is evidence of xenophobia, but rather that possession is halfway decent evidence for its absence. The point is that having a passport is historically rare among Americans (15-25% in the past) although nearly universal among Europeans.

Sure, if you’re young and poor you don’t need a passport; I got my first one when I was 27, and it was strictly for one business trip. Travel’s gotten a lot cheaper in the last 30 years and English is more widely spoken; it isn’t quite the luxury or the challenge that it used to be.

And, look: the lady likes to read and wants to travel. Quelle surprise.

Comment #37: bad Jim  on  01/21  at  06:03 AM

“The point is that having a passport is historically rare among Americans (15-25% in the past) although nearly universal among Europeans.”

One thing to keep in mind about both (a) the past and (b) geography:

Number of countries requiring a visitor from another European country (let’s randomly pick two—say, Italy and France) to have a passport to visit before 9/11 that were physically easily reached from that country, ie, not requiring thousands of miles of travel or crossing an ocean: 4 and 6 respectively

Number of countries requiring a visitor from America to have a passport to visit before 9/11 that were physically easily reached from that country, ie, not requiring thousands of miles of travel or crossing an ocean: 0

In other words, historically, Europeans have needed a passport to go jaunting around their continent; historically, Americans never did til very recent times.  So in the past, I don’t think an American having a passport was any kind of indicator that he or she was more lacking in xenophobia than an American without one.  I traveled to both our geographically contiguous countries in my teens and I didn’t have a passport til 2002.

Comment #38: Lisa KS  on  01/21  at  06:17 AM

I think the ‘passport and library card’ statement might be taken a little too literally.  It could just mean that she’s looking for someone who isn’t mentally or physically stagnant.  That isn’t necessarily affected by income level.  Maintaining sense of adventure and a tendency toward erudition might be more of a challenge when you’re struggling to make ends meet, though.

Comment #39: Sam Holloway  on  01/21  at  08:27 AM

You know, there are ways to learn about other cultures that don’t involve the expense or physical rigors—yes, I sense some ablism—of travel.
If you live anywhere near a diverse and decent sized population, there will be cultural festivals throughout the year. Visit them, and mingle. Participate. Read all the information. Chat with the people running the food booths, etc, if they have some time to spare.
Sure, it isn’t the same as total immersion in the culture, but, otoh, if you park your expectations outside the event, and pay close attention, pretty soon, you’ll find people not only eager to share with you, but that they think you know more than you do. I suspect it’s better to partake of tea ceremony after seeing it done on a stage by a Buddhist church in Sacramento, than to go to Japan and look for a McDonald’s.

You can also read travel blogs, view travelogues, get on the Internet and make friends with people half a world away. Study history and cultural geography.
Do you get the full experience? No. But I would rather know about the importance of feather cloaks in Polynesian kingdoms of the past than get a sunburn through my shirt at a Hawaiian tourist resort. I’d rather know that blue lava is sacred to Pele than to take a stone chip home never knowing that it’s got a history to it.

So, by all means, let the snobs discriminate by passport ownership. But let’s call them snobs for doing it.

Comment #40: Samantha Vimes  on  01/21  at  08:30 AM

‘You are confident, have good credit, own your own business, travel around the world and are self-sufficient. What man is going to want you?’

I’m certainly not the only male reader whose metaphorical hand is raised.

Comment #41: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  01/21  at  10:17 AM

And it’s not just a matter of financial capital; cultural capital helps too, and that’s something that also tends to be stratified by class.

The problem is it’s somewhat unrealistic to slam people for being shallow because they don’t date outside their financial class, but it’s really, really unrealistic and cruel to blame people who want a potential mate to share their cultural capital.  Why would I want to date someone who finds travel intimidating?  Why should I want to date someone who doesn’t share my tastes in much at all? 

Saying that someone is a bad or unworthy person for not having a passport is one thing.  But saying that you don’t want to date someone who doesn’t like to travel?  I’m uncomfortable with the underlying insinuation that women are obligated to date men they don’t have much in common with in order to prove they aren’t snobs.

We’re talking about dating preferences, which are a much different bag than simply judging a group of people as human beings.  A lot of people I think are swell I couldn’t date.  Dating is idiosyncratic.

Comment #42: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/21  at  10:19 AM

And I know you said it was her “right”, but there was a sense that she’s a bad person because she wants to date people who are legitimately into traveling.  And I fail to see that.  She’s being smart—-it’s not fun to be like, “Well, going off to Europe again, sorry that being around French or Italian speakers intimidates you!”  It’s not just a right to be picky, but an obligation not to start relationships with people that you know up front are going to be rife with problems. 

Plus, we’re taking way too seriously what was a light-hearted joke.  “Passport” and “library card” are used as metaphors in this joke, stand-ins for the actual qualities that are minimum standards: 1) enjoys traveling and new experiences and 2) enjoys reading.  It’s very common in not just the English language, but most languages, to use physical objects as stand-ins for concepts and ideas.  I’m fairly certain she wouldn’t object to a man who loved to read but doesn’t have a library card because his job as a book reviews editor means he’s swimming in free samples.  Taking metaphors too literally so you can shame someone is kind of an odd thing to do. 

I made a similar joke when BlogAds sent a bunch of bloggers to Amsterdam—-they sent food bloggers, gossip bloggers, all sorts of bloggers, but the only political bloggers that went were liberal.  And someone wondered out loud why they didn’t send right wingers, and I said, “Because you needed a group of people that already had passports on hand, because it was on short notice.” 

If you streeeeeetched it in an effort to shame me for no real reason, you could say that’s “classist”, but that’s an intellectually dishonest thing to say.  After all, the average Republican voters is far richer than the average Democratic voter, and I’d say that translates to bloggers as well—-most right wing bloggers are a lot wealthier than most liberal bloggers. 

The joke was about open-mindedness and willingness to travel, insinuating that right wingers are a group of people with the means but the lack of curiosity to travel.  To read it any other way is to be ungenerous for the sole purpose of shaming someone for no real reason except to do it.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/21  at  10:29 AM

Just to defend the importance of the financial issue, it matters a lot to me that the person I’m marrying isn’t stupid with money. There’s a whole bunch of marital strife and other badness that can come out of your spouse not managing money well.  (I personally have ambitions of giving lots of my money away to charitable and political causes, and it’s a problem if the person I’m with is going to do weird things that keep that from happening.)

Comment #44: Neil the Ethical Werewolf  on  01/21  at  10:43 AM

We’re talking about dating preferences, which are a much different bag than simply judging a group of people as human beings.  A lot of people I think are swell I couldn’t date.

Ah, the perils of a society that constructs dateability as one of the chief measures of self-worth. I’d wager that for many Americans, saying “I don’t want to date you” and saying “you’re an unworthy person” are only semantically different.

Comment #45: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  11:10 AM

My best friend from college thinks that no man will like a smarter women.  This is a problem because we’re both very smart and educated.  She’ll actually get mad at me when we meet guys and I talk about my education or career, even if the guys specifically asked me about it.  I know from experience that being my smart self has never pushed a guy away.  My friend’s mother is really controlling and creates an almost impossible situation.  She insists that my friend have a great education (she’s in grad school now), but at the same time she insists that women can’t date men that have less education.  My friend thinks that men with lower education aren’t worth having, but then why would she be “worth having” to a guy that has more education than she does?  It’s my opinion that if a man needs me to pretend I’m dumb so to make him feel less about his insecurities, he’s the one who isn’t “worth having”.

Comment #46: bananacat  on  01/21  at  11:13 AM

I think it’s so ridiculous to try to scare women into submission by suggesting that they’ll “die alone” if they get too uppity.  Statistically, women live longer than men.  On top of that, the same people arguing that women need to make marriage a priority also tend to insist that women should marry older men.  That means that even if a woman does all the “right” things, gives up her chance at higher education, gives up her career, and marries at a young age to an older man who has an established career, then does all the “right” things in marriage so that they never get divorced, chances are pretty high that she’ll die alone anyway.  Some might argue that at least you’ll get kids out of it so you won’t really be alone, but plenty of people have kids without being married, and getting a divorce doesn’t make the kids magically disappear until you manage to get a new husband.  It’s one of the silliest arguments to scare women into submission.

Comment #47: bananacat  on  01/21  at  11:30 AM

And I know you said it was her “right”, but there was a sense that she’s a bad person because she wants to date people who are legitimately into traveling.

Um, you don’t even have to be into travelling per se to need a passport.  There is the simple fact that 1) passports are fairly cheap and work for domestic travel, particularly when your 11 year old is on the watch list and 2) you need one to get back into the US from Canada or Mexico, both of which are cheap day trips or road trips for a substantial proportion of US residents!

Don’t know which rock you live under, oldfeminist!  I can get a cheap hotel package and bus trip to Montreal for the weekend that is priced for a student budget.  Ski bus packages are also available out of Boston and are outrageously inexpensive as they include hotel and lift ticket and transportation.  I can also catch a Megabus for cheap.  Many people go hunting and fishing from the cities of the northern tier - Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, etc. and that’s cheap too.  All require passports.

Comment #48: Ms Kate  on  01/21  at  11:44 AM

Love it.  I’m getting a Master’s degree and the dude hasn’t even finished his undergrad.  ARE WE DOOMED TO FAIL, NYT????

Comment #49: jellyleelips  on  01/21  at  12:40 PM

Not to mention the fact that a degree does not necessarily equal higher intelligence or a lack of compatability.  That’s what reading’s for.

Comment #50: jellyleelips  on  01/21  at  12:41 PM

Not only snobs Samantha, but really dead wrong.  Some of the most conservative people I know, including the biggest sexist, racist, homophobic bastard, are actual world-travelers.  I mean like trips to China.  Europe is old hat to them.

I think this is dead wrong.  You have your exceptions like George W, who obviously had the money to travel but was incurious and a lazy bastard.  But for the most part, the financial elite, who are mostly conservative, travel a lot.  And they’ve got passports.

I’m as liberal as they get and I didn’t have a passport in my 20’s.  I went a lot of places though - all over the Caribbian and most of Mexico.  You didn’t need a passport then of course for that.  In my 30’s when I should have gotten a passport, I was engaged to a workaholic with loads of money but no time to travel.  So I didn’t bother.

I got my passport just before I turned 40, and I’ve used it, but I came to it late.  In my case it wasn’t an economic or class issue, just chance.  But I do think that this smacks of elitism.  I don’t care how cheap it is, if you don’t get that travel is out of the reach of some, many, then you are saddled with one big case of privilege.  That’d turn me off way more than any passport issues.

I stopped to think about it, and it is true that my bf does have a passport and did when I met him.  It’s not a question he ever asked me though, or I ever asked him.  We got to know each other the old fashioned way; we talked.  A lot.  It was I imagine, a much hotter way of warming up to each other than “do you have a passport?  check”

Found out pretty quickly that we had shared values and neither of us were xenophobes.  To each their own though.

Comment #51: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  12:48 PM

Or you could find a couple where the wife’s high-earning job made it possible for the husband to rethink his career path, take some risks and go without making money for awhile, and have him talk about that with gratitude.  Or you could interview a stay-at-home dad.

My husband and I fit this exactly, but we don’t live in NY so maybe that doesn’t count. I think it may actually be harder to find the anecdotes like the ones chosen for the article. I can’t think of anybody I know who thinks and educated woman is not desirable.

Comment #52: Olivia  on  01/21  at  12:53 PM

To each their own though.

This is becoming the blog version of the southern “bless your heart.”

Comment #53: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  12:57 PM

Amanda, I guess I am confused, I just read your posts on the thread now.  How is considering it “unrealistic” to slam someone as being shallow for not dating out of the financial class, different than looking down on women who are with men they outearn?  Isn’t part of this whole debate, the point that women who outearn their men are dealing with a lot of shit from society and probably their families?  And the men probably are too?

I’m willing to date outside of my “financial class”.  I really don’t get this.

Comment #54: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  01:05 PM

Unless “financial class” is a euphemism for something else and everyone else is in on the lingo.

Does it mean “working class”?  Are we talking blue collar here? 

Well, I’d date them too.  I don’t know what any of this is supposed to mean, but I see some veyr interesting hairs being split here.

Comment #55: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  01:08 PM

First off, I think one thing coming up in this thread (not solely from Amanda) is that it’s stupid to slam ANYBODY for their dating choices. If you shouldn’t slam women for dating men they outearn, you shouldn’t slam women for dating men who earn the same as them, or who earn more. And the same goes for men.

Unless “financial class” is a euphemism for something else and everyone else is in on the lingo.

Actually the discussion seems to really be about cultural capital. Which is correlated with financial class, but not 100% so. There are certain experiences, priorities, and preferences that tag along with how much money you have/grew up with.

Is it unfair? Yes. Is the solution to this unfairness to tell women, “fuck you and your preferences, you aren’t allowed to have them because they track with financial status?” No. The solution is to establish a more equitable society, but I digress.

And like Amanda I think the specific terms “passport” and “library card” are symbolic stand-ins for a set of interests and priorities, not literal points on a checklist. Even if it’s not shorthand (and I’m nearly sure it is) then it’s just a fucking preference. Which everyone has, even if they pretend on the Internet that they would date any ol’ person with a Heart of Gold who turned up on their doorstep.

Why is it when women’s dating choices are the subject of discussion, everyone assumes the very worst about the hypothetical women? IBTP.

Comment #56: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  01:25 PM

I don’t know about you…but the only people I know who are taking relaxing vacations in the Caribbean these days are trust-fund kiddies and upper/middle class people who managed to keep themselves out of the red and have substantial savings.

That is not at all the case in my world - maybe I just have more friends/coworkers/aquaintances who prioritize travel? 

I will admit that I don’t know a lot of people who are flat-out poverty-stricken, and yeah, I’m sure they don’t travel much.  But there is nothing wrong with saying that you enjoy doing things that are not possible for poorest of the poor, or that you would like a prospective partner to have the means to do something that the absolute poorest Americans can’t usually afford to do.  Otherwise we would be in a constant cycle of shaming each other for having netflix memberships and eating meals that are not macaroni and cheese.

Comment #57: The Opoponax  on  01/21  at  01:42 PM

To second Opo’s post—I would also like to note that despite being neither upper/middle class with substantial savings nor a trust fund kiddie, I traveled substantially last year. It was just one of those things—I happened to have a bit of money available thanks to cheap rent, and I decided it would be better spent on travel than on anything else I might come across.

Not the most practical expenditure I’m sure, but I’m going to be poor-ish for the rest of my life; saving that few thousand dollars wasn’t going to change it. I plan to do the same this year, when I have paid off my taxes and scrounged up a little more cash.

Comment #58: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  01:48 PM

*Full disclosure: I also inherited a little bit from a dear departed parent. Who would have strangled me from beyond if I’d spent it all on coffee or stuck it into a CD somewhere. He wanted me to have the fun he couldn’t have.

Comment #59: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  01:50 PM

Well What, if you traveled “substantially” last year, you ARE middle class.

Comment #60: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  01:57 PM

Is it unfair? Yes. Is the solution to this unfairness to tell women, “fuck you and your preferences, you aren’t allowed to have them because they track with financial status?” No. The solution is to establish a more equitable society, but I digress.

I said it before in the last dating/marriage thread that touched on this, but I really think that socio-economic class is the last frontier in terms of compatibility.  Very few people will state outright that they wouldn’t consider someone of a different race or religion, and yet 90% of people’s inventory of traits they want in a partner boil down to “someone from the same class as me”. 

I’m not sure if that’s a good or bad thing.  On the one hand, more equality is always good.  On the other hand, people generally want to pair up with people who are like them, and in our society we define ourselves in a lot of ways by class - and most of them can’t even be discussed openly, let alone fought against. 

Maybe this makes me “classist”, but I have no desire to seriously date someone who doesn’t have a high school diploma or is habitually unemployed.  I probably won’t have much in common with someone who doesn’t read for fun, doesn’t like art, isn’t interested in food or politics, or doesn’t at least aspire to travel.  We would frankly have nothing to say to each other, and while I’m as committed to equality as the next leftie, I would like to eventually settle down with someone whose company I might actually enjoy.

Comment #61: The Opoponax  on  01/21  at  01:58 PM

@ # 56 - First, in fact, you are dead wrong - it’s men whose motives I assume the worst of when we are discussing “dating preferences.”

I am not assuming the worst of anyone, I’m asking a fucking quesion because I don’t understand Amadna’s point, is that okay with you?

And I don’t “pretend” anything.  My SO is not of my finacial class, whatever the fuck that means.  In my case it simply means; he doesn’t make money, I do.  And I do take a lot of shit about that from family and friends.  People do look down on women who mate with someone who isn’t an earner. 

So don’t talk to me like that.  I have run into this often, I smell it here, and I wanted her to explain what she meant.  I asked nicely.

I really resent certain posters here who jump all over your shit woiht their big fucking superiority complexes anytime you even post a question.

Comment #62: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  02:00 PM

AnglScarlett - I guess I just don’t find anything shameful about being middle class, or having some of the interests that come with having grown up middle class.  I suppose it would be interesting to live in some sort of ascetic utopia where nobody ever partook of any experience that couldn’t be shared by the very poorest people.  But I don’t live in that utopia and won’t pretend that I do.

Comment #63: The Opoponax  on  01/21  at  02:01 PM

“or who is habitually unemployed”

In this economy?  And with the forecasts?  It not only makes you a bit snobby, it’ll really cut down on your choices if you’re looking.

All these stories in the papers about the jobs situations, aren’t just for coloring.  They’re real people, who are really fucked, with no real prospects. 

Yeah, it’s bad.

Comment #64: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  02:03 PM

I didn’t say there was anything “shameful” about being middle class.  Strawman.

Well What claimed not to be middle class, and then said they had “traveled substantially” last year.  Guess what?  That’ ain’t lower class.  Middle class.  So first, let’s be realistic when we define ourselves, if we feel we must do so.

Secondly, I don’t live in a place where I can’t do anything that the very poorest can’t either.  Strawman number two!

I am with someone who doesn’t make money.  I do make money.  It’s not a problem for me.  It’s not a problem for him.

We have everything in common.

I simply asked a question; what does it mean to not date outside of your “financial class” and further, what does it mean to someone who feels that way, when they meet someone who does do that?

Comment #65: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  02:06 PM

Well What, if you traveled “substantially” last year, you ARE middle class.

Nope. I am in fact working class, economically speaking. I earn far below the “middle class” living standard in my city. (Perhaps in another city I would qualify as middle class, but not here.) I do, however, have middle class cultural capital.  I have the tastes and priorities of someone who grew up in the middle class—because I did grow up in the middle class. I’ve just been booted out of it since then.

The two—economic class and cultural capital—are different, though linked. Which is what I said in my first response to you.

Comment #66: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  02:10 PM

AnglScarlett (@62) - I think there’s a distinction to be made between how much money one earns and what a person’s ultimate social class is.  For instance I have two friends who are engaged.  Both are from basically the same sort of background.  However, the woman works for a nonprofit, while the man is a bike messenger who is chronically unemployed.  She makes a shit ton more money than he does, and I’m sure she gets crap for it from her family (he’s very much “not a provider”).  But I think it would be a mistake to say that they prove some kind of point about how Really, All You Need Is A Good Man And Nothing Else Should Matter.  Because they have a lot of other things in common that are class-based, despite the income disparity.

Comment #67: The Opoponax  on  01/21  at  02:11 PM

Well What claimed not to be middle class, and then said they had “traveled substantially” last year.  Guess what?  That’ ain’t lower class.  Middle class.  So first, let’s be realistic when we define ourselves, if we feel we must do so.

Middle class is an actual economic thing, you know—not just a vague group of people who do things you consider middle-classy.

Comment #68: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  02:16 PM

I don’t know.  I grew up upper middle class - my father was a corporate VP of Drexel Burnham.  My bf grew up poor.  Really poor. 

He holds a ph.d, I have a BA.  So though I grew up in a different class than he did, he is much better educated.

Do I believe to an abusive childhood, and also a generally rebellious attitude he has never been very good at holding a job, and in fact, the ph.d made that worse, not better.  He was able to hold blue collar jobs before the education.

I have my own business and am doing okay even in this economy.  He, being educated the way he is, is able to help me in that ( i have a PR and business writing business, he’s a great editor).  But he was poor when we met.  Outright.

So I don’t know what you call that, but I’m way happier than I was when I was engaged to a man who made 300k. 

I do get a lot of shit from people, mostly snide remarks or curiousity, questions, etc.  I think it’s all based on expectations from traditional gender models.

I don’t expect to find it here.  That is all I was saying.

Comment #69: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  02:21 PM

I didn’t say there was anything “shameful” about being middle class.  Strawman.

You really need to stop being so argumentative.  One can’t really employ a strawman argument if one isn’t arguing.  I responded to something you said in your comment.  The bottom line, for me, is that I’m not really worried about Ohnoez, What If My Relationship Isn’t PC Enough WRT Class Consciousness?!!!  I’m kind of just looking for someone I have something to say to, and if we represent some kind of Marxist Love Vanguard, awesome, but if it’s just another middle class person like me, that’s ok too.

All these stories in the papers about the jobs situations, aren’t just for coloring.  They’re real people, who are really fucked, with no real prospects.

I kind of doubt that Every Single Person who is unemployed right now is never going to have another job, ever again.  When I say “habitually unemployed”, I’m talking about someone who has a long history of never being able to hold down a job, or a long string of jobs that you can’t really support yourself on (or worse, someone whose job history involves long period of dealing drugs).  Not somebody whose company downsized them last year and they’re still looking for a replacement job.

Comment #70: The Opoponax  on  01/21  at  02:21 PM

@ #68 - yeah, traveling is an economic thing.  Ask anyone who’s broke.

Comment #71: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  02:22 PM

I think this is a really interesting issue.  We quite rightly deplore people who are “snobs,” i.e. those who never care to associate with people from less privileged financial or social backgrounds.  But, on the other hand, shouldn’t people have a moral right to be snobs in choosing their most intimate relationships?

In some senses I married outside my “class.”  My husband and I have an equal educational level, but his parents are non-college educated working class, whereas my parents and grandparents and beyond were white collar professionals.  This has led to moments of discomfort, or even pain, in our marriage.  I have struggled with embarrassment when my husband professes ignorance of certain topics (topics the knowledge of which was taken for granted in my well-read family when I was growing up) or when he appears intimidated in certain “high-class” settings.  I have also been hurt by the chip he has on his shoulder about “private school kids” because those kids are me and some of my closest friends.  I also know for a fact that I have also hurt him in ways that are related to class differences. 

I am grateful to live in a society that is tolerant, even approving, when the doctor’s daughter marries the janitor’s son.  But it is not so simple as recognizing that people “with a heart of gold” can come from any background.  Social divisions can cause divisions within an intimate relationship, despite the best intentions of everyone involved.  Although I would marry my husband again, I can’t fault someone for preferring to pair up with a person from a substantially similar background socially, educationally, and economically.

Comment #72: Laurie  on  01/21  at  02:22 PM

They’re real people, who are really fucked, with no real prospects.

They’re me, asshole. I have no job and no real prospects. I’m scrounging to get by on project work. I have no health care. I don’t have a fucking BEDROOM, and no, I don’t live in NYC where that’s normal. But apparently doing something impractical the one time I had any cash to spare makes me permanently Middle Class. Whatever.

The man I’m seeing right now is in the same economic boat. But there’s no denying that many of our common interests come from the fact that we grew up a certain way, and went to similar schools. If I met someone from a different financial bracket who shared my interests, I’d absolutely date him. But odds are that someone with whom I have a ton in common is going to have come from a similar background. Note that I say “odds are.” That it is likely does not make it absolute.

Comment #73: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  02:23 PM

I don’t expect to find it here.  That is all I was saying.

I haven’t seen anyone in this thread giving you shit for who your fiance is.  Mostly I have seen people talking frankly about class and what it means in relationships.  As well as defending women’s right to have a say in who we settle down with.  If that unnerves you, so be it.

Comment #74: The Opoponax  on  01/21  at  02:27 PM

The whole thing started because apparently some woman wasn’t allowed to want to date a man with “a passport” (passport being code for—an interest in travel).

This is not the same thing at all as looking down on someone who dates a lower-earning mate.

It is acknowledging that people have and are entitled to have preferences in dating. Sometimes these preferences will track with financial status. TOUGH SHIT.

Dating is not the same as friendship or respect, it is far more reliant upon a wide-reaching compatibility. To say, “I prefer to date X” is NOT to say, “Y is bad and people who date Y are stupid.”

I think you are reacting to a judgment that isn’t here, in short.

Comment #75: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  02:29 PM

Social divisions can cause divisions within an intimate relationship, despite the best intentions of everyone involved.

And said divisions aren’t always as cut and dry as “I grew up poor and you’re a rich bitch private school kid”. 

Most of the social uncomfortableness between my boyfriend and I come from the fact that he has an Ivy League education, and my BA is from a mediocre public university.  He owns a tuxedo.  Most of his casual sweats are emblazoned with “Elliot House Crew Team”.  He’s at home in the world of ski trips and sailboats and weird hobbies like mountain climbing or scuba diving.  His old college friends are the children of chief surgeons and professors emeritus.  I owned a cocktail dress once upon a time, but it got ruined at the dry cleaner.  My grungy clothes are from tarpon rodeos.  I’ve never skied, sailed, dived, or climbed anything more ambitious than a 5th floor walkup tenement.  My old college friends grew up on government cheese. 

Weirdly enough, I’m the doctor’s kid and he’s the construction worker’s kid.

Comment #76: The Opoponax  on  01/21  at  02:59 PM

Angl, if you make $10,00 more than your spouse, you’re still in the same financial class.

The point is this: It’s a standard misogynist trope to express that women should not have preferences when it comes to dating.  That’s the Nice Guy® whine in its entirety: Women who want someone interesting, exciting, sexy, etc. are SHALLOW BITCHES, and the only way to disprove it is to date men who don’t even try to be appealing as romantic partners. 

It’s cruel and nasty to demand that women not have preferences.  What that essentially means is take anyone and adjust your lifestyle to fit his.  That’s one of the basic expectations put on women that feminists are trying to crack—-that women basically take a “good” man and tailor their tastes and expectations to what he says they should be.  If she likes to travel, and the man who doesn’t pulls her ticket, oh well, she doesn’t like to travel any more.

Being in a relationship with someone is a big fucking deal.  For most people, it determines what your life will be like.  Someone who doesn’t like to travel is going to be a drag for someone who does.  Someone who thinks reading is stupid will aggravate someone who likes to read.  This is basic.  And sometimes background influences what your tastes are.  A woman who likes to travel isn’t going to make the man who hates it very happy, either, you know.

When it comes to money, well….I would think it silly to have very narrow income requirements.  But most of the time, the “shallow bitch” slam is aimed at women for having the nerve! to want to date! someone with a full time job! who can go out to dinner on occasion!

Comment #77: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/21  at  03:08 PM

Whoa, I think everyone is reading way too much into this passport/library card thing.  To me, it sounds like a good icebreaker and conversation starter.  I highly doubt this woman treats a date like a job interview, and goes down a big list of questions to ask before she decides to like a man.  What’s wrong with having dating preferences anyway?  My friend likes foreign guys because she thinks the accents are cute.  That doesn’t mean she’ll exclude every man who doesn’t have an accent.  I like guys who are into Star Trek and who have spiky hair.  That doesn’t mean I’ll exclude every man who likes different tv shows or has a different hairstyle.  If a woman enjoys traveling and reading as hobbies, what’s so bad about liking men who have similar interests?  Isn’t that kind of the point of dating?  Should we all tolerate people who have completely different interests, just because our interests might be viewed as shallow or classist?

Comment #78: bananacat  on  01/21  at  03:08 PM

Is it unfair? Yes. Is the solution to this unfairness to tell women, “fuck you and your preferences, you aren’t allowed to have them because they track with financial status?” No. The solution is to establish a more equitable society, but I digress.

Or, what Well, what said.

Comment #79: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/21  at  03:09 PM

Well, well what, you have completley lost me now.  I have no idea why or how someone in your position would have previously been carrying on about your world travel and how it’s your right to not date someone who isn’t in the same culture club.

I guess this discussion is over my head.

I’ll leave it to the intellectuals to wade throught that.  Thanks though!  I’m sure this was illuminating, and I just haven’t figured out how yet.  My shortcomings, no doubt.

Comment #80: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  03:09 PM

All these stories in the papers about the jobs situations, aren’t just for coloring.  They’re real people, who are really fucked, with no real prospects.

Their situations will not be improved one bit by having people forced to date them unhappily out of guilt, and frankly, since they are real people, most of them would not actually enjoy being pity fucked.

In fact,  if someone chooses their friends and lovers not because they have stuff in common with them, but to bolster their lefty credentials, I’m wary of said people.  They’re patronizing their so-called friends and lovers.  This discussion is really fucking weird, in fact.  If someone is poor, and I have a lot in common with them, then they’re more likely to be my friend.  But to go out of my way to befriend and even date people that just don’t share my interests…..well, my first assumption is that it wouldn’t work, because yo, they have choices, too.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/21  at  03:12 PM

I have no idea why or how someone in your position would have previously been carrying on about your world travel and how it’s your right to not date someone who isn’t in the same culture club.

Because you don’t stop being a person with interests, preferences, and a love life just because you’re poor. Oddly enough, humanity tracks with all socioeconomic levels.

Comment #82: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  03:14 PM

Since antecdotes are fun, here’s mine:

I’m 34, make more than twice as much as my husband, who when we met 10 years ago was in the process of getting his GED and I had just graduated from a 4-year university.  He is a wonderful, sensitive, thoughtful and intelligent person.  He finally got his BA degree a few years ago but found after trying a few “upscale” jobs that he prefers outdoor, manual labor (he’s now gravedigger for the city cemetary and loves it).  Althought that’s certainly not the most lucrative career choice it’s fine by me because he’s happy.  The differences in our education, earning power, and ambition have never, never, never been an issue for us - rather, our various streangths and weaknesses compliment each other perfectly. 

Also, I can attest to the fact that his dick is just fine.

Only once have I encountered anyone who thought there was anything at all strange about the fact that I was the main income earner in our relationship, and that was an older male co-worker who just found it surprising, not bad.  Many of our friends have situations where the wife works a stable, if not super lucrative, job, and the husband runs a small buisiness (house painting, landscaping, etc.) which is sometimes very lucrative and other times out of work or just scraping by for months.

Comment #83: zarza  on  01/21  at  03:14 PM

@ Amanda # 77.  I don’t disagree with any of that, I just believe that there are people who don’t have passports, who given the chance, would love to travel. 


There is I believe a difference between wanting to find someone who shares your interest in travel, and feeling that someone who has not traveled extensively to be somehow beneath you as a choice in mates. 

I think women should also have the choice to succeed in life and choose a man the way a man chooses a woman; not based on what he can provide, but on what needs she has that he fulfills.  That’s part of the payoff for suceeding.  Otherwise, if you do not suceed, and need some financial stability, especially if you wish to have children, you are stuck with choosing from a particular group of men, ie; the professional class.  Often financial professionals.  And god help you then.

Comment #84: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  03:15 PM

well what @ 82 - agreed.  I’m curious though as to what makes you believe that you are the only poor person who could possibly have those needs and interests?

Comment #85: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  03:16 PM

Zarza, interesting, thanks for sharing.

Comment #86: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  03:18 PM

...continues grumbling….

My “right to date someone who isn’t in the same culture club” my ass. Are you suggesting I do not, in fact, have that right? This is what people are objecting to in your posts!

I have the right to date whomever I would fucking like to date, if he wants to date me. That’s how dating works. Everyone else has that right too. Nobody has an obligation to be, as Opo so eloquently put it, a Marxist Vanguard in the bedroom. Nobody has an obligation to maintain the Bourgeois Status Quo through their love lives, either. Nobody has an obligation to make any statement of any kind through their sexual partnerships. And that is the point that the NYT misses, consistently, by a country mile.

Comment #87: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  03:19 PM

Seriously well what @ 82, I just reread your post three times, and you just said exactly what I have been pointing out!

Wow, either i have been expressing myself very badly or you have. 

Exactly.  Exactly.

But not just you.  See?  That’s all I’m saying.

Comment #88: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  03:20 PM

I’m curious though as to what makes you believe that you are the only poor person who could possibly have those needs and interests?

I certainly do NOT believe that. You might have noticed that I mentioned my boyfriend, who’s also poor and yet shares many of these interests. It doesn’t change the fact that IN MANY CASES,  peoples’ interests and tastes are formed by their backgrounds, and may not be shared across different backgrounds.

Nobody is saying, “only date your own class!” They are saying, “you know, if you follow common interests, you might find you’re often dating people from your own social class. And that isn’t a sin.”

Comment #89: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  03:22 PM

Nope, not suggesting that.

Just wondering what makes you believe that other poor people are so different than you are.  You appear to be saying you are an exceptional poor person.

I say you are not.

That’s all.  I am going to leave the thread now, I am not looking to upset anyone.  Which obviously I have.

Comment #90: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  03:23 PM

I don’t think either of us is expressing ourselves badly. But you’re still arguing that “have a passport and a library card” was meant literally, as an ironclad requirement, and that also, having a passport implies HAVING ALREADY TRAVELED EXTENSIVELY.

Whereas I’m arguing that the sentiment is just that—a general sentiment implying an interest in travel and reading, and a perfectly valid criteria for someone to have in a partner.

So we’re not even having the same conversation.

Comment #91: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  03:25 PM

Oh for fuck’s sake. If you think I’m trying to say I’m an “exceptional poor person” when I say, “I have the tastes I grew up with, though I can’t always afford to indulge them anymore” then there is just no talking to you.

Comment #92: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  03:26 PM

I have no idea why or how someone in your position would have previously been carrying on about your world travel and how it’s your right to not date someone who isn’t in the same culture club.

See, this is the thing.

It is possible to have more complex ideas about class than just “I am a rich jet-setting snob who has never wanted for anything in my life” or “I am a poor little matchgirl who has never experienced anything other than grinding poverty”. 

This is part of why the USSR got so messed up when it started trying to right capitalist wrongs by reifying class identity.  It turns out that a broad category like “kulak” isn’t sufficient to explain the reality of people’s lives, and when you decide to penalize people based on whether their grandfather owned the land he farmed, you might as well just draw names out of a hat and send them all to the gulag.

Comment #93: The Opoponax  on  01/21  at  03:26 PM

Wow…the word “kulak” has been running through my head for like 30 posts now, Opo, and I couldn’t think how to articulate that! Thanks.

Comment #94: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  03:27 PM

And like Amanda I think the specific terms “passport” and “library card” are symbolic stand-ins for a set of interests and priorities, not literal points on a checklist.

Correct. “Passport” = likes to travel outside the US, “library card” =  likes to read. Not difficult, but apparently this touched a nerve.

There are thrifty working-class people who get a passport on the off chance they’ll get a cheap flight to somewhere interesting. There are profligate wealthy people who can afford to buy all the books tget wabt but get a library card because they don’t want to clutter their minimalist homes with dead trees.

And let’s not even blow people’s minds with the concept of someone who can afford substantial travel abroad and gets his books from the library.

Personal finances are a poor basis upon which to judge class tastes. If doing that is your bag, then upbringing and education and personal ambition are much better starting points. That said, it’s easier and more common for people from the same economic and/or social classes to meet each-other, because they run in the same circles.

Nobody has an obligation to make any statement of any kind through their sexual partnerships. And that is the point that the NYT misses, consistently, by a country mile.

They have whole section of the paper devoted to missing that point. It’s called “Vows.”

Comment #95: Gracchus.  on  01/21  at  03:27 PM

I’m really made uncomfortable by the patronizing assumption that anyone who is down some hierarchical ladder is chomping at the bit to date someone that they don’t feel that kind of cultural connection with. Really uncomfortable. 

There is I believe a difference between wanting to find someone who shares your interest in travel, and feeling that someone who has not traveled extensively to be somehow beneath you as a choice in mates.

Yeah, you’re being WAY too literal about the passport thing.  Way, way, way too literal. 

I don’t know the name of the metaphor.  It’s a little like a synedoche—-where the part stands in for the thing.  I guess it is a form of it.  The passport on the person stands in for the love of travel and new experience. 

Angl, you really are buying right into the trope that every time a woman expresses a preference at all, it needs to be jumped all over and analyzed to death to prove she’s a shallow bitch.  I know you didn’t want to, but one of the ways this trope gets pushed out there is women are encouraged to judge others’ preferences and play up how they have bigger hearts and are better people. 

Personally, I don’t want someone way up the class ladder from me patronizingly dating me so he can check off “middle class girl daughter of a fire fighter who thinks mac and cheese is real food” off his PC proving himself list.  You’re carrying on like cultural capital is something only the upper middle class and wealthy have, as if there aren’t other subcultures in the U.S. that are less celebrated that have their own values and mores that create a “like attracts like” thing.  I’ve dated men from far wealthier backgrounds than mine, and could tell right away it wasn’t going to work out, because there’s more than a whiff of slumming in some of those interactions. 

More equality is a better solution than guilting people about choosing to be with people they share cultural capital with.  Certainly, the push towards desegregation was what made interracial dating more common, not guilting people who aren’t dating people of a different race.

Comment #96: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/21  at  03:28 PM

It is interesting; this discussion has made me realize that what all my long term boyfriends had in common with each other and with me is that we all came from a background of of the aspiring lower middle class (or even poor)—-the people who would have been pretty poor in the pre-union era, but who are able to put together a middle class lifestyle and send their kids to college. Indeed, I get on really well with the scholarship kids set in general.  That’s a preference, and I’m sure that someone could totally call me a snob for it, due to my being female and not allowed to have idiosyncratic tastes.

Comment #97: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/21  at  03:41 PM

Amanda, I don’t guilt people who choose to do that.  I was asking what you definition of “financial class” meant.  And I don’t believe that all relationships where people are of two different classes contain one party who is being patronizing, or pity fucking someone. I think that’s a little like saying that all interracial couples contain one white person who is doing the “look at me I’m so liberal i’m fucking a minority” thing. 

I also sometimes feel that when a woman chooses,l in a non-patronizing, not pitying way, to be with a man who really isn’t in her financial class, she can be viewed the way some racists view white women who are with black men.  Often, as you know ,the white woman in that sitatuon is demeaned as damaged goods, but also as a less desirable white woman who couldn’t get a white man.

We do live in a society where a measure of how much a man loves you is often thought to be found in the size of the ring he buys you.

I don’t pity poor people.  I will read what you wrote again and think about it more though.

Comment #98: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  03:44 PM

It turns out that a broad category like “kulak” isn’t sufficient to explain the reality of people’s lives, and when you decide to penalize people based on whether their grandfather owned the land he farmed, you might as well just draw names out of a hat and send them all to the gulag.

Well, Stalin’s persecution of the kulaks was done on very specific grounds—I believe the current term would be “highly coercive expropriation.” Koba was paranoid to be sure, and probably did draw lots now and then to see who was for the high jump. But in addition to creating an atmosphere of terror, his main goal was to confiscate land, plant and machinery whilst herding people into either gulags or kolkhozes. Ideology just provided a rationalisation and a pretty gloss.

That aside, you’re dead-on with your main point. A wealthy peasant can be just as incurious, distrustful, narrow-minded and proudly ignorant as a poor one.

I don’t know the name of the metaphor.  It’s a little like a synedoche—-where the part stands in for the thing.  I guess it is a form of it.

It’s a form of metonymy.

Comment #99: Gracchus.  on  01/21  at  03:50 PM

Key point: you didn’t set out to find a nice Scholarship Set Kid to date. You dated people who you felt were like you, and surprise! Often they shared your background.

Is the woman in the article, with her preference for metaphorical passports, likely to find herself dating another middle-class or upper-class dude? Probably. Not certainly, not at all. But probably.

I do think it is a fair argument to make, as Gracchus did, that the *perception* of class is often based more on interests and ambitions than on pure finance. This is part of what makes the NYT article so useless. The relative earning power of the couples in question isn’t necessarily a good indicator of their class affiliation.

Comment #100: Well, what?  on  01/21  at  03:54 PM

And I don’t believe that all relationships where people are of two different classes contain one party who is being patronizing, or pity fucking someone.

Whew boy, are you misrepresenting what I said!  You were guilting people about having certain signs they look for in mates that happen to be indicators of certain class status—-even though their reason for wanting that wasn’t to make sure someone made enough money, but because they want shared interests—-as if we should not only be blind, but feel socially superior if we seek out folks who don’t have those things.  (Like a passport.)  And I have to point out that not everyone who is from a background other than the upper middle class is eager to date someone who gallantly is like, “I’m so glad you’ve never gone to France.  I’m so SICK of dating people who claim they can only drink Burgundy in Burgundy.”  I feel like you crossed the line into the territory of being the upper middle class girl who is going to condescend to date the rest of us.

Interracial dating is on the rise, but the reason is because people of different racial backgrounds are beginning to share cultural capital.  I’d say 95% of interracial couples I’ve known/been a part of shared similar backgrounds and are now in similar social circles/neighborhoods/professions.  The more that the different financial strata in the U.S. become desegregated, the more true this will be. 

The best way to get over the anxieties that provoke you so badly is not to suggest that it’s so simple as to date people you don’t have much in common with culturally background-wise or now, it’s to demand that we have an America with a large middle class, no poverty, and very few unbelievably wealthy people.  The reason class is complicated in the U.S. to begin with is that in the 20th century, people who were previously barred from entering the middle class—-say, people like me joining up with people like you—-is because liberals deliberately set out to create that large middle class.  The GI Bill, financial aid, the FHA, unions.  Working class people made middle class incomes and sent their kids to college.  Where they could gain cultural capital markers like passports and then get a guilt trip because they date someone they went to school with.

Comment #101: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/21  at  03:57 PM

Wow.  I didn’t expect to contribute to touching a nerve like this, but I’m glad we’re having a conversation nonetheless.

Let me reiterate what I am not saying:

1.  That women (and men) are not allowed to have preferences.
2.  That someone is obligated to date another.
3.  That someone is obligated to be in The Marxist Vanguard wrt to relationships
4.  That someone who dates according to one’s preferences is shallow.

In fact, I said that the woman to whom I was referring was allowed to have preferences and that she was not bad for doing so.  I meant that.  I do not think she is a shallow bitch.

On the other hand, I could have misinterpreted the original statement and read way too much into it.  I do tend to be sensitive to classism (or what I perceive as classism) because I grew up in a working-class (but not poor, thank goodness for the union) family and have “climbed up” into the middle class as determined by educational and other social markers (not yet by income, which may change).  This has brought me into contact with a lot of very interesting people whose company I do like, but who sometimes exhibit classism, much like any of us here might stumble and say something racist/sexist/classist.

So the various comments here have given me something to think about, which I do appreciate (though Amanda’s invocation of “Nice Guy(tm)”  stung - ouch!).  If I’m being unfair, I’m certainly willing to change my perspective.

I agree that “I prefer to date X” is not the same as saying “Not-X is bad.”  Although I do think our assessments of others (and their preferences) does from time to time bleed into making deeper judgements about other people.  I don’t think I was doing that, but if it came across as if I were, I’m sorry for doing that.

Comment #102: Linnaeus  on  01/21  at  04:00 PM

A passport is far from the only thing that tracks to class, but doesn’t necessarily mean that’s your primary motivation.  For instance, I’m probably not going to last long with someone who doesn’t have a computer, not because I’m a snobby snob snob, but because I’m a BLOGGER, and an interest in online life is something that’s kind of a minimum entrance requirement to have much in common with me.

Comment #103: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/21  at  04:01 PM

Of course, a lot of my preferences tend to eliminate people that are way up the income ladder, like I would probably be put off by an overly fancy car or a house that is too shiny with everything brand new and expensive.

Comment #104: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/21  at  04:03 PM

I happened to have a bit of money available thanks to cheap rent, and I decided it would be better spent on travel than on anything else I might come across.

Most people don’t realize how much owning and operating a car costs them.  We easily financed my husband and kids following me to Ireland by having only one car that is paid for.  Two car families say “oooh, that must be expensive” without even considering how much they spend on that second vehicle. 

I know a lot of lower-middle income people who travel a lot.  They either don’t own cars or share a car with at least one other adult.  In my area, legally minimal insurance alone is $1500 a year.

Comment #105: Ms Kate  on  01/21  at  04:07 PM

LOL maybe I am that girl Amanda, but I don’t mean to be.  Maybe my preference for fucking poor marxists is a result of my upper middle class upbringing.  I will think about all of this.  I think it’s cool to talk about it without getting all pissed off as I apparently made some feel.

Comment #106: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  04:16 PM

I’m really made uncomfortable by the patronizing assumption that anyone who is down some hierarchical ladder is chomping at the bit to date someone that they don’t feel that kind of cultural connection with. Really uncomfortable.

For serious.

I can say, with confidence, that I would much sooner consider dating someone who grew up poor, didn’t go to college, and is unfamiliar or uncomfortable with interests I take for granted which correlate with class than I would date someone I saw as ultra-wealthy and out of touch with the reality of my life.  Even if they could take me anywhere in the world and buy me fancy toys and pay my rent.

Comment #107: The Opoponax  on  01/21  at  04:26 PM

That said, it’s that woman’s right to use having/not having a passport as a way to screen potential dates.  I don’t think that makes her bad.  I probably wouldn’t want to date someone who did that, but I’m sure there are plenty of people who would.
Comment #36: Linnaeus on 01/21 at 01:31 AM

Didn’t realize this would blow up so much.

Actually if it’s used as a conversation starter rather than a disqualifier it’s a good conversation-starter and can get xenophobia out there right quick where you can see it and run away.

“My passport picture is so horrible”—date may say all kinds of things in response to “mine is too, that beaner at Mexican customs tried to solicit me for a bribe to accept it,” to “where have you gone?  I’m so jealous!  I’ve never traveled but I’m fascinated with the idea of going to Tibet,” and anything in between.

Comment #108: oldfeminist  on  01/21  at  05:47 PM

Don’t know which rock you live under, oldfeminist!  I can get a cheap hotel package and bus trip to Montreal for the weekend that is priced for a student budget.  Ski bus packages are also available out of Boston and are outrageously inexpensive as they include hotel and lift ticket and transportation.  I can also catch a Megabus for cheap.  Many people go hunting and fishing from the cities of the northern tier - Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, etc. and that’s cheap too.  All require passports.
Comment #48: Ms Kate on 01/21 at 09:44 AM

Last time I went to Canada (after 9/11) I used my birth certificate.  I see that’s changed.

But since I live under a fucking rock and don’t care about people in other countries and am a moron, why would you fucking care what I do?

Comment #109: oldfeminist  on  01/21  at  06:00 PM

The thing is, people are sort of naturally inclined to see out people that they have a lot in common with as mates, and for better or worse, a lot of things about one’s self relate to your past and future class status.  You could ungenerously call me a snob because I am attracted to guys who have the word “film” as part of their everyday vocabulary, for instance.  You could ungenerously say I use that to screen for class and income and that I’m a bad person.  But in order to avoid that charge, I would have to deliberately avoid men I’m inclined to date because we have similar interests, and seek out people who fit my stereotype of someone not middle class and college educated.

Which is infinitely worse, because it does two things: stereotype people unfairly (and imply that low income automatically means not using the word “film” in your vocabulary) and imposes on people who probably don’t find me attractive, either, using them to “prove” something about myself. 

Or you could just relax and believe that while preferences you have about taste and outlook may have class implications, as long as those preferences are rooted—-as this woman’s seems to be—-in a genuine desire to form a mutually pleasurable relationship with someone, then you’re not some evil villain who is distributing the reward of your vagina unfairly.  Funnily enough, the “relax and date people you actually find attractive” method hasn’t always resulted in college educated yuppie boyfriends.  Aforementioned autodidacts, for instance.

Comment #110: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/21  at  06:10 PM

Amanda: “A woman who likes to travel isn’t going to make the man who hates it very happy, either, you know.”

See, I kinda thought of this in terms of the article’s focus, which was women who have more money than the men they’re involved with.  Which might mean that the guy they’re chatting up might never have had the opportunity to travel, so never invested in a passport. 

He might love to travel, might have been to a lot of places in the US even where he could drive, but not be ready to hop a flight to Amsterdam at a moment’s notice.  There are people who live in the middle areas of the country, not near an international border, so someone who’s traveled the equivalent of a ski bus or hunting or fishing expedition to Canada might not have to have a passport.

I’m not trying to say that wanting a partner to be interested in travel is bad.  I’m saying that having a passport isn’t necessarily the same as liking travel.  In short, I took it more literally than you did, because I have heard people say things that assholish, both men and women, and travel really is class-related, not just in an economic sense, but in a culture sense.

Comment #111: oldfeminist  on  01/21  at  06:14 PM

Oh yeah oldfeminist, that’s changed big time.  I used to get into Canada with just a driver’s license too.  I once got into Mexico with an expired driver’s license!  The guy barely looked at it, just asked if that was my bf (the guy who had just gone ahead of me, and he was), and then told me how lucky he was.  I don’t know what gave me the nerve to think I could do that with an expired license, (at the time my license was actually suspended that’s why I hadn’t had it renewed yet), but I guess that’s what being young, dumb, and goodlooking will do to you.  Man, they’d have me in a prison today!  LOL. 

I went all over with no passport back in the day.  I guess we will never see that again.  And alas, my days of charming boarder guards with my youthful good lucks will never be seen again either!  smile

Comment #112: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  06:38 PM

Oh also Ms Kate, “priced for a student budget” isn’t priced for someone who already maybe has a kid or two, or a minimum-wage job they will lose if they take off for more than a day (split weeks). 

I think there’s sometimes confusion between poor student and poor adult.  Not every poor student has the advantages I’m about to list, and that’s true even more now.

But many do.  They have decent future prospects, parents who will help when they’re out of money for rent, payback of student loans is in the future, there are no kids to support, they are still on parents’ insurance, they live in an area where public transportation is good so they don’t have to have a car to work, their clothes, furniture and electronics were purchased when they still lived with the ‘rents, or come as birthday/holiday presents or hand-me-downs, internet is available to them at the school if not at home, and so on.

Again, it’s not universal.  And I definitely don’t think there’s anything morally wrong with any of this.  But while that student’s income may be at or below the poverty level, the student is not living in the same circumstances as someone who grew up poor and is now living like her parents, working a crap job at McDonalds with no real advancement in sight.

I have been student-poor, but I was not essentially poor.  If I truly needed help, I could get it; I never lacked for furniture or a TV or stereo or clothing or food or insurance, in my instance because I had a job that didn’t disappear, but I wouldn’t have regardless.  And I knew the difference.  If I had wanted to go skiing in Canada I would have done so, knowing that $199 or whatever could be replaced in an emergency.  I wouldn’t have been sticking my neck out in the same way a non-student Jane BurgerFlipper would, even if we both had the same job, same income, same size apartment.

Comment #113: oldfeminist  on  01/21  at  07:06 PM

AnglScarlett:  “And alas, my days of charming boarder guards with my youthful good lucks will never be seen again either!”

Maybe someday you and I will be old enough to charm them with battiness; they’ll just shrug and let us go through because how dangerous could an old lady be?

Comment #114: oldfeminist  on  01/21  at  07:09 PM

Amanda @ #110:  I don’t disagree with any of that.

Comment #115: Linnaeus  on  01/21  at  07:36 PM

@ oldfeminist, oh yea and I look forward to that believe me!

@ general - I have been thinking about this and maybe Amanda you are right in one way, and that is that our upbringing or class background does directly shape who we are attracted to.  I think what has gone different with me, and Scott Baoi is what made me start thinking of this, is that I was raised on the north shore of LI and my dad was a sort of big shot, but nowhere near like a Dimon bigshot don’t get me wrong, but small enough to be under the radar but big enough to provide a really good upbringing for me. So the Baio thing ties in because I am half Italian and my Italian half are all Scott Baios!  They are racist, sexist right wing assholes, serious.  Except for my mom, who is the total opposite, so go figure.  But I have to say, all of the male relatives on that side are.  In my entire life, I have never fucked an Italian guy.  And I grew up in NY, and believe me, plenty of them wanted to f me.  Never. 

I think the same goes for the professional class of men, especially the financial class, and NY is filled with them.

In my case, familarity, bred contempt.

Comment #116: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  07:42 PM

In case anyone doesn’t know and I sound like a nut - Chachi made a fucking jackass out of himelf insulting Michelle Obama on his twitter.  Another instance of twits twittering.

Comment #117: JennyLI  on  01/21  at  07:49 PM

There are people who live in the middle areas of the country, not near an international border, so someone who’s traveled the equivalent of a ski bus or hunting or fishing expedition to Canada might not have to have a passport.

Except that this is the New York Times.  Which usually gears its feature articles to a New York metro area audience.  Unless you’re going to suggest that we New Yorkers open ourselves up to dating people who live in different time zones, because to do otherwise would be snobby.

Comment #118: The Opoponax  on  01/21  at  08:24 PM

Oh also Ms Kate, “priced for a student budget” isn’t priced for someone who already maybe has a kid or two, or a minimum-wage job they will lose if they take off for more than a day (split weeks).

1.  I think “has a kid or two” would be a much bigger issue in dating than whether that person is well-traveled or not.  If I asked, “so do you like to travel?” and my date said, “well, what with the kids and all, I never got around to renewing my passport when it expired,” the issue wouldn’t be OHNOES, You Are Not An Intercontinental Jet-Setter, it would be YOU HAVE MULTIPLE CHILDREN.

2.  I honestly don’t think there’s anything wrong with dating someone who might have more than a minimum wage job.  In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever dated anyone who was in that situation (and I have dated quite a few people in service industry jobs).  So it makes little sense for me to decide that what I really need to do is structure my life so that, on the off chance I fall in love with the Chinese takeout delivery guy, I won’t have unrealistic expectations of what kind of life is in store for us.

Even people who work low-level service jobs get time off, btw.  Often it’s even easier to plan your life around travel and that sort of thing, because schedules are more fluid and you tend to have the possibility of weekdays off, getting someone to sub a shift for you, or working fewer hours than usual for a short time.  One of my favorite things about working in retail was that it made sense for me to take off a week or so in January or February (which could be made even longer by stacking my work schedule in just the right way), which is a great time of year to travel.

Comment #119: The Opoponax  on  01/21  at  08:38 PM

By the way, one of the perennial topics of the international travel forums I frequent on and off is Why Americans Don’t Travel.  Apparently we’re in the minority in assuming that international travel is only for the very wealthy.  And this includes Australia, which is much further away and has far more expensive international airfares.

Comment #120: The Opoponax  on  01/21  at  08:54 PM

The Opoponax, I didn’t say it was wrong to date someone who’s getting paid more than minimum wage.  But again, the focus was on women interacting with men who make less money than they do, so there’s a possibility of low, even minimum-wage jobs. 

By the way, I’m not asking you to structure your life so that you will match some Chinese takeout guy’s lifestyle.  I’m against that expectation as it was described by Amanda; I am most definitely not thinking that women should just put up with whatever they can get and mold their lives after the men they can “catch.” 

Instead, I’m suggesting that judging a man who doesn’t have a lot of money as uninterested in travel and blinkered in general because he doesn’t have a passport is perhaps overly restricting your field of potential friends.  It’s pretty easy to figure out the difference once you talk to someone for a little while.  His dream of travel might be beaches and bikinis and endless liquor and OMG you can actually smoke pot in Amsterdam!  Or it might be wonder what the people are like in Vietnam, I’d love to know more about Peru because my great-grandmother came from there, wish I could spend a month in Vienna for the music.

The narrative of the rich guy marrying the coat check girl and taking her to Paris, while it’s a romance story trope, is not actually impossible or ridiculous in real life.  Why is it unrealistic to think that the well-off woman might hit it off with the Chinese takeout guy and eventually take both of them to Paris?  Aside from the fear by some people that he must be a gigolo.

And just because the woman in the article has a particular POV doesn’t mean we all share it, or should expect to.  We’re all over the country, and the world.  What she said suited her environment, but that doesn’t mean it suits mine.  That’s why I said what I said.

Comment #121: oldfeminist  on  01/21  at  09:52 PM

Apparently we’re in the minority in assuming that international travel is only for the very wealthy.  And this includes Australia, which is much further away and has far more expensive international airfares.

Sorry to be contrary, Opo, but don’t they have a national health system in Australia?  I believe it’s called “medicare,” which is not to be confused with the national health system for people over age 65 in the US.

Maybe international travel isn’t considered a luxury reserved for the super-rich by people who live under governments that ensure that their citizens aren’t bankrupted by medical bills?  This is just a suggestion, feel free to set me straight on this.

I just have a notion that horizon-expanding activities like travel are much less of a worry for people who live in societies with stronger social safety nets than we have in the US.  After all, we’re all just one traffic accident away from having our ability to obtain credit obliterated (can’t get any loans or lines of credit if you have a bankruptcy on your record) and all future economic prospects (can’t get a job if you have a bad credit report).  Wouldn’t scrambling to save up enough to have an emergency fund put the nix on travel?

Comment #122: Mezosub  on  01/21  at  10:26 PM

Mezosub:  “I just have a notion that horizon-expanding activities like travel are much less of a worry for people who live in societies with stronger social safety nets than we have in the US. “

Good point—the US is very hard on people who have no job.  And people who work get an average of, what, two weeks’ vacation?  Very little compared to other “first world” countries.

Comment #123: oldfeminist  on  01/21  at  11:20 PM

A passport is far from the only thing that tracks to class, but doesn’t necessarily mean that’s your primary motivation.  For instance, I’m probably not going to last long with someone who doesn’t have a computer, not because I’m a snobby snob snob, but because I’m a BLOGGER, and an interest in online life is something that’s kind of a minimum entrance requirement to have much in common with me.

Actually, considering any computer that was made within the last 10 or so years has the capability of reasonably handling office, some multimedia, and internet applications, computers aren’t as strongly linked with class as they were in the 1990s…..even when running recent windows operating systems like 2000 or XP. 

What this has meant is that as long as one lives in a densely populated area and/or knows someone who either has or knows where to get access to free usable computers, more working-class and poor people now have computers.  Especially with the increasing trend of people giving computers away on craigslist or dumpster diving for them as I and several other people I’ve met have done.  Just a few days ago, I assisted a friend in preparing her old desktop to be given away to a working-class neighbor. 

Though this is certainly no panacea to the digital divide, computer ownership can no longer be assumed to be the exclusive genteel preserve of the middle/upper-class as once it was…especially before the late 1990s.

Comment #124: exholt  on  01/22  at  02:23 AM

edward, you’re a complete (and clearly ignorant) tool. the IRC makes zero distinction, gender wise, when it comes to taxing income: it’s all taxable, unless specifically excluded by a section of the code.

i say this as a cpa, who specializes in federal tax law, and has been in the biz for nearly 30 years. i’ve forgotten more about the subject than you’ll ever know.

basically, your point was you had no intelligent point.

Comment #125: cpinva  on  01/22  at  02:48 AM

International travel is very affordable, even in this economy.  Of course, there are people who live hand-to-mouth, but international travel isn’t nearly so exclusive as to suggest that it can be used to screen for rich men.  On the other hand, there is a lot of “middle-class poverty” in the United States: in other words, the compulsion to put all your money into a McMansion and your 3 SUV’s, so you have virtually no disposable income with which to travel.  This, however, is an issue of priorities: for some people, buying a big house takes priority over fun, for others, it’s the exact opposite; any man or woman should be free to prefer one or the other.

Here, I want to recount an anecdote which illustrates this point well, though (I apologize), it’s only tangentially related to the main topic.  I had a client a few years ago—a middle aged New York City bus driver who lived with his wife (a social worker) in a very modest rented apartment in Brooklyn.  On one occasion, the subject of travel came up, and it turned out that this man had criss-crossed the world like nobody’s business.  Hiking in the Andes, paddling near the coast of Antarctica, luxury hotels in Dubai, safari in Tanzania—you name it, this man has done it.  He knew details that only a die-hard travel junkie would know (like that you can cruise aboard cargo vessels, for example).  When we talked about Paris, he mentioned certain nooks and crannies that only a person who was very, very familiar with the city FIRST HAND would know.  Eventually, I mustered the nerve to ask him how come he had traveled so much.  As delicately as I could, I pointed out that it was unusual for someone of his economic background.  To which he replied something like this: “When my wife and I got married 30 years ago, we sat down and weighed our options.  And we said, it’s like this: We can do the mandatory thing and buy a house in the suburbs, a couple of cars and a timeshare in Florida.  Or—we can see the world.  So we chose to see the world.”  All three of their kids still went to college, by the way.

Comment #126: Redisca  on  01/22  at  12:41 PM

OFF-TOPIC, inspired by Amanda’s mention of “Nice Guys”: Amanda, I was browsing around LiveJournal the other day and found something you may be interested in. Or maybe not, I don’t know, but I thought I’d mention it. Specifically, a rather whiny Nice Guy ranting about you for being unfair and a meanie Objectivist (I don’t get it either) in your condemnation of Nice Guys. He’s here, scroll down a bit, if you want to see it.

Comment #127: LR  on  01/22  at  06:26 PM

Thanks for writing this up. Always glad to see someone is pointing this stuff out, and has an audience.

Comment #128: pcleddy  on  01/22  at  06:38 PM
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