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Next entry: Tired but still cracking jokes Previous entry: Skepticon update

Skepticon wrap-up: angry but joking atheists for the win

ReligionScience

All weekend at Skepticon, books were everywhere.  The book seller had books about atheism, about science, and books written by the speakers.  There were books being purchased, read, carried around, and signed.  But these were not the books that were the ones being most discussed, even as the speakers hawked their own books from stage.  That honor went to two highly contested texts: the Holy Bible and On the Origin of the Species.  Never were two books so discussed while remaining largely unread. 

Copies of The Origin were all over the place.  The reason was that a creationist group set up in front of the convention to protest it (which was really odd to me, but was shrugged off by a lot of people who had dealt with these folks before), and their form of protest was to hand out copies of The Origin with an intro to it written by evolution denialist Ray Comfort.  His creationist group put out their own version of The Origin in order to swing people towards creationism a couple of years ago, and they’ve been handing out free copies ever since.  You can tell the second you see their copies of the book that they’ve vandalized the text somehow, simply because their copies are a lot lighter than the actual book On the Origin of the SpeciesA quick Google search demonstrates that this suspicion in correct, that the Comfort version of the book has four excised chapters, because Comfort doesn’t actually want people exposed to the evidence that Darwin marshaled for his theory.  He also replaced Darwin’s actual introduction with his own evolution denialist gobbledy gook.  Comfort would have you believe that actually reading The Origin will turn you against it, but his censorship of its actual contents proves that he knows that claim is false.  Conventioneers responded to this peculiar protest by taking the books and then circulating them around so that the speakers could sign them, turning them into souvenirs of the event. 

The other book that was being carried around by some folks was the Bible.  They snagged the free ones that the Gideons put in hotel rooms, and also asked speakers to sign them.  (I joked that I should have written, “Have a bitchin’ summer!” as my tag in the Bible, except my handwriting is so poor that people probably wouldn’t get the joke.)  One guy came up with a fun idea of putting stickers that said “I Doubt It” that were advertising Skeptical Inquiry on the Bible and then returning it to the hotel room for the next person to find.  This entire incident was another reminder to me of how different it is to be an atheist living in hyper-liberal and tolerant areas (like I do).  My usual stance towards the Bible is indifference, honestly.  It’s not that I don’t know about Gideon Bibles, for instance, but I so rarely think about them that it would have never occurred to me to look for one in my room for any kind of protest stunt to pull.  But I think in some parts of the country, being mindful of the non-stop Christianity shoveling isn’t a choice. 

As Ray Comfort clearly understands, actually reading On the Origin of the Species is likely to move someone closer to accepting evolution.  In contrast, actually reading the Bible tends to turn people away from faith, which is why churches tend to discourage it, substituting “Bible study” for actual Bible reading.  But it was clear from the way these books were being bandied around that this isn’t really about what’s in them, but what they symbolize: traditionalism vs. modernity, faith vs. reason, patriarchy vs. feminism.  And that’s fine, I guess.  Something had to be the symbols for that, though there’s a distinct reluctance on the part of the modernists in this equation to make Darwin’s book a symbol, because we reject the idea of treating science like received wisdom.  But you have to work with what you got, not what you wish you had.

There was some amount of butt hurtness from the actual (and rare) accomodationists about the fact that this conference was mainly about atheism.  Even talks that weren’t about atheism had atheist implications.  Mine, for instance, was about feminism as the rational position, but the entire first half of it was about how religion is a major obstacle for women’s rights.  (The second half was about pseudo-science.  I’ll be putting it online soon, I hope.  They were taping all the talks given.)  PZ Myers talked about evolution and how it works on a genetic level, but the conclusion was about why evolutionary theory is, whether people like it or not, a threat to the god hypothesis.  Rebecca Watson’s was about Christmas and the value of the various fantasies about it, but the conclusion was about atheism and whether or not atheists should celebrate Christmas.  (Her conclusion was abso-fucking-lutely.)  The claim was being floated that 3 out of 15 speeches were on atheism, but honestly, ever single one I was able to catch was about atheism on some level.

And that’s fine.  It’s asinine to claim that the focus on atheism is going to run off a handful of religious people who might otherwise be interested in skepticism because they’re skeptical of UFOs and Bigfoot.  Not that it isn’t true, but it’s basically beside the point.  This claim underestimates the intelligence of religious people, because it assumes they don’t understand that skeptical claims about other supernatural beings have implications for claims about god.  It also assumes they wouldn’t get that they’re in a thicket of atheists because everyone just politely refuses to talk about the obvious. 

But more than that, the argument fails to honor the people who actually show up, who actually give money, and who actually care about this event.  Those people want to talk about religion.  They fall into two camps, though many people have a foot in each one.  First you have people like me, who are atheist activists because we see the horror religion does in the world and we simply think challenging it is more important than challenging beliefs in, say, fairies.  Then you have people who’ve actually been the direct victims of horrible actions taken in the name of religion, or they’re close to someone who has, and for them atheist organizing is a healing thing to do.  For instance, there’s a whole lot of child abuse going on in this country in the name of Jesus Christ, and people who see that and are distressed by it don’t need someone blabbing on to them about how they have to turn down the volume on their objections because they might offend someone. 

Talking about atheism doesn’t preclude talking about other stuff.  The fear is that if you talk about atheism too much, you’ll run off religious people who might otherwise add value.  But I would argue that the atheist talk gets people in the door, and once there they are happy to hear your arguments about resisting quack medicine, promoting science, and, in my case, embracing feminism.  You would lose half those sets of ears if this was a conference that had more stuff about Bigfoot than it did Jesus.  That’s just a cold, hard fact.  People turn against religion for emotional reasons, but that doesn’t mean their arguments aren’t rational. Treating the angry atheists like they count less because they’re angry is simply unfair.  They should be angry.  Also, that they are angry doesn’t mean they are strident, humorless, or scary.  As I noted above, for instance, instead for reacting to the creationists protesting the event by yelling at them, most people expressed their anger with humor, by defacing the books with the signatures of noted heathens speaking at the event.  When you speak to people, they often have stories of beatings at the hands of fundamentalist parents, harassment at work from believers, and feelings of isolation in their various communities because of their atheism.  They should be angry.  I feel a lot of the debate about turning down the volume on atheism is telling the angry people that their feelings don’t count, and that’s simply unfair.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:42 PM • (100) Comments

Love the poster.

But I think in some parts of the country, being mindful of the non-stop Christianity shoveling isn’t a choice.

Welcome to North Dakota, one of the most religious states in the country. During the election, our letters-to-the-editor section was filled with missives about the importance of electing good, god-fearing Christians to stand up to the “god haters.”  We non-believers aren’t even considered worthy of citizenship in these parts.  Shit comes up when I’m buying canning jars at k-mart or grading papers in which students try to turn me away from being gay.  It’s more than a little tedious.

Comment #1: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  11/21  at  08:58 PM

Comfort would have you believe that actually reading The Origin will turn you against it…

Ray Comfort has done a lot of asinine things, but good lord. It’s been continuously in print for the past century and a half.

The only thing I can think is that he thinks we atheists too are discouraged from reading our Holy Text and instead attend Origin Study or biology classes or something. One would think that the fact that you can buy a recording of our pontifex maximus reading it aloud on iTunes would tend to discourage that view…

Comment #2: Alex, FCD  on  11/21  at  09:02 PM

I’m sure you’ll notice this in a minute, but Darwin’s work is actually “On the Origin of Species,” as in all of them. “On the Origin of *the* Species” is incorrect.

Comment #3: meganelise  on  11/21  at  09:14 PM

That MAJeff…he’s such a foodie.

Also, a correction: Comfort is handing out a complete copy—it’s just the first edition, missing several chapters Darwin added in later editions.

Comment #4: PZ Myers  on  11/21  at  09:34 PM

Looking forward to listening to your talk when it goes up. I was listening to a podcast on the weekend that reminded me of Pandagon and especially Amanda’s take down of EvoPsych. On it they interviewed Cordelia Fine and Rebecca Jordan-Young both of whom have written books on the flawed science behind the study of sex differences. It was a great interview with both academics making the point that all of this bad science is getting in the way of potentially useful research. Link here if anyone is interested. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/allinthemind/stories/2010/3060277.htm

Comment #5: JC  on  11/21  at  10:15 PM

I thought the accomadtionism vs. gnu atheists debate was tedious as hell. I get so freaking sick of semantic debates. Bring on the chupacabras and lost gospels.

Re: Bible Belt atheists:

Before I went to this I had no idea their were oasises for the godless, even in the big cities.

Today I went to my grandma’s early Thanksgiving (I gave up the drunken late night abort-a-orgies back in Springfield for THIS?!?). I was struck how completly detached I was from my conservative religious family. We have NOTHING in common, nada, zip, zilch. I have no allies unless you count the kids who are too young to absorb that crap.

It makes me wish I spent even more time practicing my socializing at the con, I may not get that chance again for a long time.

I think that settles it. Time to move the fuck outta Missouri.

Comment #6: kaje  on  11/21  at  10:18 PM

There. THERE. Damn typos.

Comment #7: kaje  on  11/21  at  10:21 PM

Funny thing is, I arrived at the conclusion that I’m an Atheist in very much the same way that Amanda did. I was probably an Atheist long before I realized that I was, there was no big moment or some big thing that religious folks did to turn me off, I just realized I was an Atheist.

That said, I’ve found that I’ve gotten a lot less accepting of religious arguments than I had been in the past (both from a moral viewpoint and a logical one). Even as early as a year ago, I would have probably said “Richard Dawkins is an asshole who does more harm than good to the cause of Atheism” but, upon reflection, I’ve also realized that despite growing up in a pretty religious neighborhood, I never really had religion crammed down my throat either (my parents, despite not being Atheists themselves were still very open about letting me and my brother and sister decide what to believe for ourselves).

“People turn against religion for emotional reasons, but that doesn’t mean their arguments aren’t rational. Treating the angry atheists like they count less because they’re angry is simply unfair.  They should be angry.”

Long story short, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said Amanda!

Comment #8: Elliot  on  11/21  at  10:22 PM

While I do have issues with Antitheists I understand where they’re coming from. A lot of nasty things have been done in the name of God and Religion. There’s more than enough reason to be angry. Sometimes people go too far in expressing this anger, but I can’t really blame them.

If I’d been beaten or bullied for not following the dominant faith I would sure as hell be angry too. And when you’re angry it can be very hard to notice the line between reasonable actions and going overboard.

The saddest part? I don’t think the religious nuts will be effectively dealt with unless there are people who do things that I, and other people like myself, would consider going too far.

I wholeheartedly wish that people would allow other people their beliefs without interference (so long as said beliefs are harmless). But I don’t see that happening in my lifetime. Or even in my daughter’s lifetime. Or, should my daughter have them, in the lifetime of her children either.

Comment #9: Pope Thorn Iv  on  11/21  at  11:00 PM

It’s funny, I am detached from my conservative religious family but only found out that my dad was pretty much atheist right before he died.
I’d rather live out in the open than have to find out that I could have had an ally growing up when I was fighting my fundagelical mom about going to damn storefront bible thumping. *sigh*
We still to have the same sense of humor but we just can’t talk about religion or politics at any gathering. :/

Comment #10: Danica Lefse Queen  on  11/21  at  11:17 PM

As funny as Rebecca Watson’s Christmas talk was—and it was a riot—it also provided me with a huge barrel of nightmare fuel for the holidays.

My partner, who is not an atheist, has gone with me to two atheist/skeptic events now, and has come to the conclusion that atheists/skeptics are really, really, really nice people.

I’m really sorry I missed your talk. Unfortunately, I had to work on Friday, so I didn’t arrive until late. I’m looking forward to seeing the video.

Comment #11: Christianne Benedict  on  11/21  at  11:59 PM

Unlike Amanda, I grew up in a household where I was constantly in an environment that was saturated by all things Christian, namely those things in the evangelical/fundamentalist vein.  So my whole world was colored by those experiences.  I had a lovely childhood and don’t remember feeling like I was oppressed.  It really wasn’t until high school that I began to question Christianity and even in college I was a fence-sitter when it came to religion.  It was only until I met some proud atheists past college that I was really able to come to terms with what I really believed.

Part of being in the evangelical/fundie environment is that it is so hard (at least it was for me) to turn your back on a philosophy that permeates every pore of your being.  You have to get past the whole I’m-going-to-burn-in-hell-now-because-I-turned-my-back-on-God thing, even though your head is telling you that hell doesn’t exist either!

I guess in some ways I’m still a closeted atheist.  I’m out to my friends and my wife but when it comes to my parents and siblings, I really don’t volunteer the whole atheism thing.  I don’t go out of my way to act Christian or spout Christian mumbo-jumbo.  But on the other hand I’m known as the one flaming-liberal in my family, so they probably think I’m lost already!

Comment #12: Damemusic  on  11/22  at  12:34 AM

I know that it’s important to be accepting of people’s anger with religion(s).  I also think it’s important for atheists to help people catch their psychological breath and say “Easy, easy”, mebbe with a quick joke.  There is a struggle out there, but it’s also important to heal.

Comment #13: shah8  on  11/22  at  12:52 AM

Yeah, for me I never had a big opposition to my own late-acknowledged atheism. My father still goes to church most Sundays, to a very liberal church. I think he’s actually leaning towards atheism, though. He just has been going for so long, that he has nothing else to do on Sunday morning.

I still go with him when I’m in the country, because so many people there have been an important part of my life for so long. I don’t really mention to the congregation that I’m atheist, I just smile and nod. My wife, who has never been a regular churchgoer, is definitely possessed of some (in my opinion, very odd) spiritual beliefs. Not really Christian, just one of those vague “there must be something out there” people.

My split was very clean and easy, thankfully. I meet some very strongly religious American soldiers here in Okinawa, and it weirds me out. Thank God (Ha!) I wasn’t born into one of those families… things might have been a lot harder than they were.

Comment #14: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  11/22  at  02:01 AM

My conclusion is that bad or cruel people use religion as an excuse to be bad or cruel.  If they don’t have religion, they use something else.  Good people use religion as a way to be kind or generous.  If they don’t have religion, they use something else.  It seems like religion is just orthogonal to decency.  For every Martin Luther King, we have a Eugene Debs and a Father Coughlin.

That said, any minority philosophy of choice tends to be full of people who are trying to be good people, more or less by definition.  Atheism may be uniquely moral, I dunno.  Critical thinking is good for puncturing the privilege which is at the center of so much cruelty.  But I’ve met a lot of Baha’i folks in the US, and they give much the same vibe.  So . . . yeah.

Comment #15: Punditus Maximus  on  11/22  at  02:03 AM

I also find it incredibly funny that the ad at the top of a post about skepticism is about numerology. How awesome is that? I would say pretty awesome.

Comment #16: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  11/22  at  02:17 AM

And the way religions make good people take part in evil thing usually has to do with us vs them rhetoric and stampeding the hotheaded.  Depriving religious organizations of conflicts reduces them to serving their community’s needs (or at least lets the hierarchy prey on their fools and leaving us be)

Comment #17: shah8  on  11/22  at  02:54 AM

There is no need for a god.  Here is one feminist’s solution to save your marriage

Comment #18: scratchy888  on  11/22  at  03:34 AM

I don’t see religion ending as a cure for conflict; it may take one arrow out of the quiver, bu to what chet says at #17 nationalism could just as easily be substituted for religon in that statement.

Comment #19: EricBlair74  on  11/22  at  04:47 AM

I also think it’s important for atheists to help people catch their psychological breath and say “Easy, easy”, mebbe with a quick joke.

The fact that you don’t think—-even though I pointed it out—-that people can have anger but also be relaxed, happy, joking people proves you make your judgments on poor information.  I’m angry about sexism, but it’s not like I have a vein throbbing in my forehead all the time.

Telling angry people to chill out is condescending and insulting, especially when they’re already chill. Which they often are.  Jesus.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/22  at  07:07 AM

@20: strawman. Saying X is bad doesn’t preclude saying Y is, too, which was a large part of my speech actually.

Comment #21: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/22  at  07:08 AM

My conclusion is that bad or cruel people use religion as an excuse to be bad or cruel.  If they don’t have religion, they use something else.

Sometimes, sure.  But it’s also true that good people abuse children in the name of Jesus because they believe if they don’t, the children will go to hell.  Consider that there are good-hearted, naive Christians who reject homosexual children, for instance.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/22  at  07:10 AM

A quick Google search demonstrates that this suspicion in correct, that the Comfort version of the book has four excised chapters, because Comfort doesn’t actually want people exposed to the evidence that Darwin marshaled for his theory.  He also replaced Darwin’s actual introduction with his own evolution denialist gobbledy gook.

Reminds me of those “Pregnancy Crisis Centres” you sometimes talk about. Xtianists must be so proud that their evangelism often resembles nothing more than “big store” grifts.

There was some amount of butt hurtness from the actual (and rare) accomodationists about the fact that this conference was mainly about atheism.

Why should discussions of an Invisible Bearded Sky Man™ get special treatment from skeptics when discussions of other invisible supernatural entities are torn apart? Really, next year you should have some “Spirit-Rapping Accomodationists” show up.

Also, I appreciate the points you’ve brought up about privilege. I’ve spent my whole life living in diverse cities where religion isn’t crammed down everyone’s gullet, so my atheism is generally accepted with a “who cares” shrug in much the same way I accept others religious beliefs. It’s important to be reminded that there are places, even in the land of the First Amendment, where people aren’t so tolerant or easy-going.

Comment #23: Gracchus.  on  11/22  at  10:39 AM

[Ray Comfort]  also replaced Darwin’s actual introduction with his own evolution denialist gobbledy gook.

Not exactly his own evolution denialist gobbledy gook: good Christian that he is, Ray plagiarized the first three pages of the introduction.

Comment #24: Iris  on  11/22  at  10:47 AM

I don’t see religion ending as a cure for conflict; it may take one arrow out of the quiver, bu to what chet says at #17 nationalism could just as easily be substituted for religon in that statement.

Religion is more than just one arrow—it infects other rationales for conflicts. German nationalists of several ideological stripes were happy to put “Gott Mit Uns” on their belt buckles, and ethnic tribes in the former Yugoslavia defined themselves as much by religious differences as by geographic or genetic ones.

Take religion out of the picture and justifications for such conflicts take a major hit, even though they’ll never vanish entirely.

Comment #25: Gracchus.  on  11/22  at  10:53 AM

A few items:

1)  It is very hurtful to make people think their feelings don’t count.  Five points to Amanda for saying it.
2)  I have no idea how many, if any, atheists are like me, but I am the exact opposite of an angry atheist.  I find religion and religionists dull and their arguments are as engaging as discussing the existence of Bigfoot.  I haven’t given the existence of god or the falsehood of religion more than five minutes of discussion at any point during the past twenty-five years.
3)  Given the current state of the world, I give the angry and activist atheists as much chance of making a dent in the mass of religionists as I give the religionists for reconciling all their various myths and coming together in one religion.
4)  Related to the above, many atheists are made atheist by rejection of religion via their exposure to it, so Comfort’s attempt seems to me to make more sense than Amanda is giving him credit for.  I grant you that exposure to nonsense would help in getting people to reject nonsense, while exposure to sense won’t necessarily get people to reject sense, but there is a parallel within the attempt by Comfort that renders it less bizarre than it seems and more amusing.

On a personal note, I live in the upper midwest, so I get a lot of exposure to the religionists and their mental illness (I regard religious belief as a form of mental illness).  The culture shock, coming from New Jersey as I do (New York City was my playground for fifty years…I miss New York), was huge, but I’ve gotten used to it and, surprisingly, the excess of religion here hasn’t changed my attitude towards it, which is pure disinterest.  Now I play a LOT of poker and two things that find here that do shock me are the homophobia and misogyny.  It’s astonishing.  I sit at a table with these clowns and hear them say things about gays and women and I can’t believe my ears.  Being from New Jersey and, therefore, not afraid of confrontation at all, as so many around here are, I keep responding to what they say by making them feel like fools.  I suppose, if someone were to give me some religious nonsense at a table, I would say something too, but I’ve never had occasion to do so.

Oh, and another thing that has surprised me out here is how fast people point out to me that I’m a Jew.  I never had anybody say anything to indicate they were aware of it for the first fifty years of my life.  After a couple of years out here, I think I’ve had at least half a dozen times when someone made a point of saying something to show me that they thought I was Jewish.  Nobody has said it in a way that was anti-Semitic, but it is clearly a par of their consciousness in a way that it isn’t a part of mine.

Comment #26: DBK  on  11/22  at  11:36 AM

Oh, and just to round this out and provide some background, I realized I was an atheist some short time after my Bar Mitzvah.  Maybe I was 15 or 16.  It didn’t seem like a big deal to me.  I just realized I’d never had any real sense of any magic being and that none of the descriptions of gods made any sense to me.  So I simply accepted that gods were a myth and that was that.  My view of the current crop of actively believed in religions is that they have as much real truth in them as the Greek myths and come out of the same place:  a need to have some control over the world around us.

Comment #27: DBK  on  11/22  at  11:46 AM

I’d like to go to one of these Skepticons. I’m such a wimpy atheist most of the time. I only really become fiery when attacked or confronted with nonsense. I think it would help me remember to fight back. Thanks for this writeup, and thanks for reminding us that atheists have a right to be angry. Sometimes anger really is the best response.

Comment #28: atheist  on  11/22  at  11:57 AM

I’m certainly not an accomodationist, but I do have a problem with people who assume that religion is the root of all evil, or that removing religion would make everyone more rational, or even that a religion is by default worse than a non-religious person.  Mainstream atheists don’t generally believe those things, but there are enough who do to make it annoying.  And the perfect counter to those ridiculous beliefs is Bill Maher and pretty much any Libertarians.  Plenty of atheists will simply use evo-psych in place of Jesus as an excuse to dominate women or continue to be racist, etc.  I can guarantee you that my religious mother is a far more rational person than my horrible father who also happens to be atheist.

I had been agnostic since high school.  My idea was that I shouldn’t pick a religion just because I grew up with it, and that I should investigate all of them before choosing.  I was too lazy to look into it thoroughly, but as I picked up bits and pieces, they all started to seem a lot like the ancient Greek and Roman religions which nobody regard as true anymore.  The final point came when I started looking into joining a UU church.  I actually like the “religious” part more than the “spiritual”, and it’s nice to have a weekly meeting with the same group of people who are willing to accept you for who you are and also to discuss religious issues in an open format.  The universalist theory is that a god(s) who is all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful would make sure all people got into Heaven.  I thought about this for a long time and realized that there is simply no way that the Abrahamic god is all of those things, and the most reasonable conclusion is that he simply doesn’t exist.

Comment #29: bananacat  on  11/22  at  12:08 PM

Comment #30: catgirl on 11/22 at 10:08 AM

I do have a problem with people who assume that religion is the root of all evil, or that removing religion would make everyone more rational, or even that a religion is by default worse than a non-religious person.

I don’t think anyone’s claiming those things here.

Comment #30: atheist  on  11/22  at  12:16 PM

Amanda, I think that was an unfair approach to my words, at least my words in this thread.  I’m not actually against righteous anger.  In fact, there isn’t an awful chance that I have more righteous anger than you do.  I am just so rarely in a position for me to act on it, or for others to comfort me.  Usually, anger displayed only makes things worse, no matter how right I am to be angry.  This kind of methodical outlook is sort of why I might seem “soft” on Obama, for example.  I want to direct my energies to things that can actually be changed rather than whinge about how he is not as left as desired.

More to the point of the thread and of Skepticon itself—<i>many of the people who go there, presumably with some sort of privilege (but whatever), never had a right to be angry at their family members, or at their churches/whatever, or at their bosses.  It’s just a fucking raisin in the sun.  Places like Skepticon should be places to vent, not places to be whipped up.  It sounds like that’s what you did anyways—people went there, and they feel better.

Lastly, you should not emphasis the whole “we’re okay, we jokin’” angle.  Moreover, nobody thinks you have a vein throbbing in the head.  Jeez, I typed and backspaced alot at this point—that comment with the sexism really rubbed me the wrong way.  Shit, I just think compassion and empathy are important, even though they are hard to do/be.

Comment #31: shah8  on  11/22  at  12:31 PM

So, how were the TSA scanners/ friskings, or did you not have to go through those?

Comment #32: Dana  on  11/22  at  12:38 PM

Leave it to Dana to ask the really important questions around here.

Comment #33: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/22  at  12:57 PM

Re: Gideon Bibles:

The guy who wrote “Airport,” whose name I don’t feel like looking up, wrote another thriller called “Hotel.” He’s no prose stylist (to put it mildly), but his books are jam-packed with information. One of the tidbits in “Hotel” is that travelers write the names and numbers of call girls in Gideon Bibles. (It came up when a room was being prepared for a rich Godbag who was interested in buying the hotel, and the manager thoughtfully checked inside the Bible.)

I’ve looked inside hotel Bibles ever since, but never found this to be true. I guess in the days of Craigslist, that’s long outdated.

Comment #34: Bitter Scribe  on  11/22  at  12:59 PM

My conclusion is that bad or cruel people use religion as an excuse to be bad or cruel.  If they don’t have religion, they use something else.  Good people use religion as a way to be kind or generous.  If they don’t have religion, they use something else.  It seems like religion is just orthogonal to decency.

As the saying goes: “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

Comment #35: Dunc  on  11/22  at  01:08 PM

I prefer to think of it as “for bad people to get good rep even when they do evil things, that takes religion”.

Comment #36: shah8  on  11/22  at  01:17 PM

“There was some amount of butt hurtness from the actual (and rare) accomodationists about the fact that this conference was mainly about atheism.”

So, the Democratic Leadership/hive mind decided to invade the conference? Kinda like when they didn’t want to offend those among them that really wanted to defend against “Death Panels” in the healthcare reform agenda as a key talking point while running for the House? “Shh, don’t mention that death panels were never part of the legislations, Ben Chandler in Kentucky is pinning his re-election on voting against healthcare reform because of those “death panels” etc. ?!?

Accomodationists are the problem because much like thread-jacking, say a feminist forum about rape, some troll wants to talk about “financial abortions” for kids they don’t want to support, accomodationists thread jack conversations and make the grown-ups have to re-invent the wheel over and over again.

The problem of false equivalency is so pervasive in our discourses, its really hard (even at Skepticism events) to get people to argue based on evidence. There never were death panels, a person “of faith” attending a skepticism conference is either there to disrupt or to engage their faith community in light of rational thought and evidence based reasoning in what he/she hopes is a positive and truth-affirming manner, therefore, that atheism would be a major theme for “the person of faith” should not be a surprise or unwelcome.

I am non-theistic and I am engaged in my “faith community” and as a UU, that’s cool. For me, religion is about community and the power of the collective for social justice and for celebrating life’s journey. I was just at a memorial this weekend for a man who died at 49 suddenly of cancer. The memorial was about his life and there was no God-Talk, as per his family’s wishes, and it was beautiful. So, for me, I’m not willing to give that up, and I don’t have to to be consistent with my non-theology. Many other non-theists who still remain part of more traditional faith-communities than mine do not want to give up their sense of community simply because they don’t share the theology. Its easier to do that in liberal churches because no one goes around asking you if you’ve taken Jesus as your personal savior, unlike Conservative churches, where orthodoxy is enforced by everyone. But still, if you are a member of a faith community attending one of these events, you are not going to be offended by atheism as rationally sound.

Comment #37: Thealogian  on  11/22  at  01:19 PM

In contrast, actually reading the Bible tends to turn people away from faith, which is why churches tend to discourage it, substituting “Bible study” for actual Bible reading.

Absolutely. That’s why the Jews, who actually wrote the Bible, have a completely anti-literate tradition and absolutely discourage anybody from reading it - certainly there’s no tradition whatsoever of the ability to read the Bible being a test of manhood, and scholars who actually pay attention to the thing are the lowest of the low. /eyeroll

I’m hardly butthurt if people are atheists - no skin off my nose, and skepticism in general is a fine thing - but sometimes listening to atheists rant about the Bible is like listening to someone criticize feminists because they don’t shave their legs.

Comment #38: mythago  on  11/22  at  01:48 PM

@Thealogian

That Democratic Leadership comparison was wonderful.

Its easier to do that in liberal churches because no one goes around asking you if you’ve taken Jesus as your personal savior

Or leading sermons about the feminist/liberal/scientific/secular forces out to destroy the country from within that conclude with a prayer that the faithful will be able to successfully resist, repel, and hopefully destroy these hell-bound people (like poor much-younger me sitting quietly and respectfully in the pew wondering if they’d still welcome me to their spaghetti lunch if they knew…).

Comment #39: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/22  at  01:54 PM

Mythago, do you know what “Bible Study” entails vs “reading the bible?” Bible Study is not something found in Jewish tradition, but rather an Evangelical Christian activity that involves the study of various cartoons and other “handouts” with quick snippets of highly selected “scripture” for discussion of specific topics—like covenant marriage or female purity, not, you know, actual studying of the Bible.

Interesting that you bring up Judaism and its highly literate culture in reference to “Bible Study.” Were you deliberate in your mis-representation or just ignorant?

When I was in Divinity School, my New Testament class as a matter of fact, one offensive passage or another was read aloud for discussion and one student shouted out: “that’s not in my Bible!” The class roared with laughter, lots of awful things are in the books of the Bible, but Bible study rarely prepares one to deal with them. Reading the Bible critically is not encouraged in many Xian communities because it does bring up too many uncomfortable questions. Most Atheists I know are far more Biblically Literate than Evangelicals. Jewish Biblical scholarship is EXTREMELY different from Christian engagement with the Bible, as a matter of fact, it was ILLEGAL for the lay to read the Bible for centuries in many parts of Europe.

Comment #40: Thealogian  on  11/22  at  02:05 PM

@mythago

I was under the impression that church pretty much meant Christian church and that Jews who attend worship service did so in synagogue, temple, etc.  If church is more commonly/broadly used than I thought, I will personally try to be more specific when I refer to Christian churches in the future.

Comment #41: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/22  at  02:12 PM

sometimes listening to atheists rant about the Bible is like listening to someone criticize feminists because they don’t shave their legs.

It’s pretty clear that Amanda was talking about Xtianist churches there. If she’d said “churches and synagogues” you’d be correct.

Fundamentalist religions and cults do tend to take an “inner knowledge/outer knowledge” approach which emphasises commentary and analysis and follow-on work over the core text. These days lay adherents are free to read the holy book, but they’re strongly discouraged from doing their own interpretation—anyone sincerely interested in doing a critical read of such texts inevitably recognises the mass of internal contradictions and fantasies.

Comment #42: Gracchus.  on  11/22  at  02:15 PM

church is more commonly/broadly used than I thought, I will personally try to be more specific when I refer to Christian churches in the future.

“Church” is sometimes used as an old-fashioned generic term whether Jeebus is involved or not, but the less confusing terms “religion” or “faith” are the preferred terms in most style guides and, consequently, in public discourse.

Comment #43: Gracchus.  on  11/22  at  02:20 PM

In contrast, actually reading the Bible tends to turn people away from faith, which is why churches tend to discourage it, substituting “Bible study” for actual Bible reading.

Every Catholic Sunday Mass has three readings, directly from scripture (usually one Old Testament, one New Testament, and one from one of the four Gospels), along with part of one of the Psalms being recited or sung.  Weekday Masses normally have two Bible readings instead of three.

Comment #44: Dana  on  11/22  at  02:28 PM

Every Catholic Sunday Mass has three readings, directly from scripture (usually one Old Testament, one New Testament, and one from one of the four Gospels), along with part of one of the Psalms being recited or sung.  Weekday Masses normally have two Bible readings instead of three.

And who’s doing the reading and commentary during those services? Indeed, who’s choosing the passages? Keep in mind that singing or rote group recitals aren’t the kind of reading that Amanda is discussing.

Comment #45: Gracchus.  on  11/22  at  02:39 PM

I think we should encourage Banana Boy to keep giving away books, he will waste money without actually converting anybody.

Comment #46: Albert Cirrus  on  11/22  at  02:43 PM

For every Martin Luther King, we have a Eugene Debs and a Father Coughlin.

I’m sorry if I’m misunderstanding you here, but did you just compare equate Eugene Debs with Father Coughlin? Did you just compare Debs unfavorably to MLK?

Comment #47: Ross Lincoln  on  11/22  at  02:48 PM

@Gracchus

Keep in mind that singing or rote group recitals aren’t the kind of reading that Amanda is discussing.

Shit.  Do you mean that I haven’t actually read Henry V just because I’ve heard the Saint Crispin’s Day speech?  Can I no longer claim to have read all of Emily Dickinson’s poetry?  That seems unfair.  I totally memorized “Because I could not stop for death” for a class once.  Doesn’t that mean that I was encouraged to read every poem she ever wrote?

Comment #48: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/22  at  02:57 PM

Shit.  Do you mean that I haven’t actually read Henry V just because I’ve heard the Saint Crispin’s Day speech?  Can I no longer claim to have read all of Emily Dickinson’s poetry?

Shocking, I know. It’s very unfair—here you thought that you were a Shakespeare and Dickinson scholar to the same degree that Dana is a Bible scholar, only to discover that the degree is a very low one.

Poor Dana. He’s forever in the weeds when it comes to these religion threads, but can’t help himself from commenting in defence of his beloved Church hierarchy.

Comment #49: Gracchus.  on  11/22  at  03:28 PM

It’s pretty clear that Amanda was talking about Xtianist churches there.

Yes, and that is exactly the problem; treating “religion” and “anti-rational fundamentalist Christianity” as synonyms. On a rationalist level, it’s inaccurate,and if you’re trying to make a logical argument like ‘churches limit reading the Bible because reading the Bible makes you an atheist,’ it is probably wise to consider if you have a hole in that argument large enough to drive Donald Wildmon’s crazy through.

And, ironically, it’s the exact mirror image of what the fundamentalists believe. Theirs is the only faith that matters, the only real one, so of course “religion” and “faith” and “belief” refer only to their variety; everybody else is simply an unbeliever or superstitious. It’s facepalm-y to see atheists promoting that level of discourse. I don’t think ‘privilege’ is at all the right word here, but there’s got to be something to describe that shared, blinkered viewpoint that religion = Jesus, and everything else is kind of…well, that shit’s weird, so who cares, we’re not talking about the rest of you.

Thealogian @41, I know exactly what it means. I also know that when you make the statement that “actually reading the Bible tends to turn people away from faith”, pointing to Christian fundamentalist Bible study as proof that statement - aha! if you read it you wouldn’t believe it! is kinda shot down from the beginning from the fact that, you know, the people who actually wrote the damn thing read it constantly.

This is not to say that Judaism is special or beyond criticism by any means, or that atheists are silly. It’s just really fucking annoying to hear the same “Christianity is the only faith that matters” bullshit from atheists, who are by definition supposed to know better. I can’t imagine how tiresome it is for Buddhists or Wiccans to hear rants about how religion is clearly an evil force that requires them to turn off their brains and submit to Big Sky Daddy lest they burn in hell.

Comment #50: mythago  on  11/22  at  03:39 PM

@Gracchus

It’s very unfair

Serves me right I suppose for not being skeptical enough.  wink

Dana [...] can’t help himself from commenting in defence of his beloved Church hierarchy.

It is always nice on these threads to have proof of Amanda’s claims.  In this case, Dana helpfully points out the extent to which religion and critical thinking are not the best of friends.

Comment #51: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/22  at  03:41 PM

@45: please see: http://catholic-resources.org/Lectionary/Statistics.htm
Turns out that if you go to church on sundays and holidays (like most Catholics), over the three-year rotation, you will hear 3.7% of the OT and less than 41% of the NT, a handful of verses at a time.  And since the readings on the same topic from different Gospels are done on off years, you won’t have them close enough to each other to do the whole “compare and contrast” thing.  If you happen to go to every weekday Mass, you’ll hear a whole 13.5% of the OT and 71.5% of the NT.

An interesting side-note: if you only go on Sundays and holidays, you will never hear a single reading from the books of Ruth, Judith, or Esther, the only books of the Catholic Bible which focus primarily on female characters (a few other books are also left out).  Including weekday masses, 28 total verses* are included from these books out of a total of 3378.  Leviticus and Numbers, the two least interesting books of the OT from a perspective of content, weigh in at 42 and 81 verses, respectively.

* And still none from Judith, which is arguably the only book with a female “hero” in the modern sense.

Comment #52: Dave Fried  on  11/22  at  03:45 PM

@mythago

I also know that when you make the statement that “actually reading the Bible tends to turn people away from faith”, pointing to Christian fundamentalist Bible study as proof that statement - aha! if you read it you wouldn’t believe it! is kinda shot down from the beginning from the fact that, you know, the people who actually wrote the damn thing read it constantly.

I’d find your arguments a bit more valid if your claim that Amanda is wrong didn’t rest on pretending that any of the words Amanda used referred to the Jewish religion.  (“The Bible” commonly means the book which includes the Old and New Testaments, just a"church” refers to a Christian place of worship. Jews don’t really refer to the Old Testament as the Old Testament, at least according to my culturally/racially Jewish partner, and they certainly don’t read, study and believe the New Testament.)

If Amanda had claimed that

In contrast, actually reading the <strike>Bible</strike> Tanakh (or even Septuagint or Hebrew Bible) tends to turn people away from faith, which is why <strike>churches</strike> synagogues and temples tend to discourage it, <strike>substituting “Bible study” for actual Bible reading.</strike>

then your arguments would makes a lot more sense.  As it stands, you sound a lot someone coming on to a feminist thread about sexist ads and claiming that the feminists don’t know what they are talking about because there are lots of different types of sexism and the post doesn’t address all of them. 

It’s just really fucking annoying to hear the same “Christianity is the only faith that matters” bullshit from atheists, who are by definition supposed to know better. I can’t imagine how tiresome it is for Buddhists or Wiccans to hear rants about how religion is clearly an evil force that requires them to turn off their brains and submit to Big Sky Daddy lest they burn in hell.

I assume that the American Constitution Party feels the same way when they hear liberals spend all their time talking about how terrible conservatives are, but only seem to really focus on the Republican Party.  Yeah, some of the details may be different, but to a liberal/progressive, the general argument applies.  The same is true of atheists when they talk about religion, but focus on a specific one.

Comment #53: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/22  at  04:02 PM

I guess I qualify as an accomodationist, although I’d prefer the term “olde atheist.” It’s not that I think that theism should be indulged as much as I don’t find critiquing what the religious do to be very interesting. Meanwhile, between Dawkins’ reluctance to embrace same-sex relationships, Hitchins’ speculation on women’s capacity for humor, and Fry’s recent comments on women’s sexuality it’s not at all obvious to me that a critique of religion qua religion solves all manner of social ills.

Comment #54: CBrachyrhynchos  on  11/22  at  04:03 PM

Just so mythago et al. don’t get upset, I want to be very clear that, when I refer to “religion” as a form of mental illness, I am not referring exclusively to any or all brands of Christinanity, but all religions equally.  I wouldn’t want to upset the Wiccans, to whom I am forever grateful for the parking spaces.

Comment #55: DBK  on  11/22  at  04:10 PM

Certainly when I hear the words “Bible-believing Christian” I know that the speaker’s experience of the Bible is via Bible study and not actually reading it.

I’m an atheist, currently dragging myself through the Bible for cultural interest, and to help in arguing from a position of knowledge. Let’s just say it has been eye-opening. To take one example, I don’t care what religion or sect someone belongs to, if they believe that Deuteronomy 21:18-21 is a guide to ethical behaviour, they are a psychopath:

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Yes, you read that - if your son disobeys him, you should murder him in public.

Of course, they don’t. They just pick the verses that support their argument (usually against women or gay people) and leave the inconvenient ones.

Comment #56: Nineveh  on  11/22  at  04:15 PM

Whoa there, CBrachyrhynchos. Could you please document “Dawkins’[s] reluctance to embrace same-sex relationships”?

Also:

it’s not at all obvious to me that a critique of religion qua religion solves all manner of social ills

It’s not at all obvious that anybody is promoting a critique of religion as a panacea, as opposed to saying that on balance a society without religion would be better (not utopian, but better.)

Comment #57: Steve LaBonne  on  11/22  at  04:18 PM

Dawkins’ reluctance to embrace same-sex relationships,

for real?  where is that from?  I just tried googling but all I can get is speculation on Dawkins’ own sexuality.  I love that he maintains one cannot be a true humanist without also being a feminist, so it will definitely make me sad if he’s being homophobic.

Comment #58: CalliopeJane  on  11/22  at  04:20 PM

To be fair, some Catholics do read the entire Bible and still believe—look at Jesuits. Jesuits helped to bring about the Rennaissance and the new emphasis on learning in Europe (of course, other Catholics had helped to bring down education in Europe). They believe that the Bible should not be read as literalist truth and (many at least) have no problem with any part of science (that’s why there are so many Jesuit colleges). That’s the reason will say we have to study the bible—it contains parables, anecdotes, ... that are meant to convey what God means and so need to be studied just as a poem needs to be studied. They also read all the contradictions and arguments for and against God.

What I find interesting is that I have veered more into the agnostic camp after reading arguments for atheism, while arguments from believers have no impact. So, for example, I look at the future of people and see the possiblity that we might become godlike beings (vitrual immortality,  access to a vast amount of information, the ability to create and manipulate life, and access to vast power are all starting to look possible). This coupled with Dawkin’s argument using the almost limitless amount of time and life in the universe and I can no longer rule out the possibilty that godlike being are around. Thus, I just doubt the existance.

Comment #59: JohnL  on  11/22  at  04:21 PM

Yes, and that is exactly the problem; treating “religion” and “anti-rational fundamentalist Christianity” as synonyms.

If that’s your problem, you might have stated it as such. I’d agree with you in general, although based on her past comments I really don’t think Amanda was lumping in UCC churches with Xtianist ones.

Theirs is the only faith that matters, the only real one, so of course “religion” and “faith” and “belief” refer only to their variety; everybody else is simply an unbeliever or superstitious. It’s facepalm-y to see atheists promoting that level of discourse.

What choice do atheists have but to point out the superstition inherent in fundamentalist and some non-fundamentalist religions? This isn’t “my god is better than your god” as is the case with fundies—it’s “there are no gods, period-endstop.”

Some atheists are more aggressive about pushing that, which tends to get them into public debates not with laid-back and/or low-profile believers, but with fundies (in the U.S., mostly Xtianists), which is probably why you see that level of discourse (hyped, as always, by the sensation-drunk MSM).

I don’t think ‘privilege’ is at all the right word here, but there’s got to be something to describe that shared, blinkered viewpoint that religion = Jesus, and everything else is kind of…well, that shit’s weird, so who cares, we’re not talking about the rest of you.

This blog focuses quite a bit on the toxic intersection between American politics and religious fundamentalism, and so Christianity, being the largest religious group in the U.S., is naturally going to get the lion’s share of attention here.

It’s not that other faiths don’t matter, but they don’t have the same impact. Even on the question of American support for Israel, the Xtian fundies and their fantasies of the Apocalypse now match or even exceed AIPAC and other predominantly Jewish organisations in terms of influence.

Comment #60: Gracchus.  on  11/22  at  04:24 PM

So, for example, I look at the future of people and see the possiblity that we might become godlike beings (vitrual immortality, access to a vast amount of information, the ability to create and manipulate life, and access to vast power are all starting to look possible).

I’d cut down on the drinking and the Kurzweil-reading- the combination can be quite debilitating.

Comment #61: Steve LaBonne  on  11/22  at  04:26 PM

Ah, but Steve, I didn’t say I believed, I said that given near infinite time and opportunity I can see it being possible.

Comment #62: JohnL  on  11/22  at  04:34 PM

To be fair, some Catholics do read the entire Bible and still believe—look at Jesuits.

Looking at them in the accurate way you do also goes a long way towards explaining why they’ve been completely shut out of the RCC hierarchy and forced to submit completely to the Pope’s dictates. If the Society had real influence, good conservative members of the flock like Dana (who brings the metaphor of “sheep” as close to literalism as possible) would have coniption fits.

And even with the Jesuits, whom I respect as worthy rivals to atheists, there’s still an inner knowledge/outer knowledge attitude at work when it comes to how they view the laity.

Comment #63: Gracchus.  on  11/22  at  04:38 PM

Having never been harassed by an atheist, I’m on their side when it comes to “don’t upset the Christians!” debate.

Atheists also don’t tell me my brother is going to hell for being gay, or fight to deprive him of basic civil rights, so again…

The Christian entitlement in this country is disgusting.

I was raised a Catholic, where reading the Bible was definitely optional: we were given interpretations of the New Testament each week in Mass, nothing in Sunday school but Catholic doctrine.

My Catholic (but ecumenical) mother sent us to a Methodist church summer school for Bible study classes. I read some of the bible on my own, much of which was boring or incomprehensible to a child, but mainly the Douay bible’s Book of Judith, an old testament heroine with whom I was excited to discover I shared a name:

“Judith, a daring and beautiful widow, who is upset with her Jewish countrymen for not trusting God to deliver them from their foreign conquerors. She goes with her loyal maid to the camp of the enemy general, Holofernes, with whom she slowly ingratiates herself, promising him information on the Israelites. Gaining his trust, she is allowed access to his tent one night as he lies in a drunken stupor. She decapitates him, then takes his head back to her fearful countrymen. The Assyrians, having lost their leader, disperse, and Israel is saved.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Judith

Of course the super heroine Judith and her exciting chapter didn’t make it into the King James version.

Comment #64: judybrowni  on  11/22  at  04:38 PM

Dawkins’ reluctance to embrace same-sex relationships

It’s not reluctance in the sense of bigotry, it’s wrestling with an apparent scientific conundrum. Dawkins discusses gay relationships in terms of their seeming incompatibility with natural selection, which at its heart is all about reproduction. So he wonders why a gay gene would not have been selected out of humanity and offers some possible explanations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MHDCAllQgS0

This doesn’t make Dawkins a Prop 8 supporter, not by a longshot.

Comment #65: Gracchus.  on  11/22  at  04:55 PM

Whoa there, CBrachyrhynchos. Could you please document “Dawkins’[s] reluctance to embrace same-sex relationships”?

I can’t find the link either so I’ll be happy to drop it. It was in the context of the Turing apology where he admitted to personal reluctance but felt that support of gay rights was fair.

It’s not at all obvious that anybody is promoting a critique of religion as a panacea, as opposed to saying that on balance a society without religion would be better (not utopian, but better.)

I didn’t suggest it was seen as a panacea. However, this interview by Dawkins points to a common theme among New Atheists that coalitions that include religious liberals are misguided attempts to win a superficial skirmish rather than the underlying war. Which makes sense when you’re talking about science education, but it makes less sense when you’re looking at sexism and heterosexism where post-enlightenment and secular ideologies have only a marginally better track record than the religious ones.

That and I’ve seen too many conversations where Hitchins is given a free pass for being a jingoist bastard because he’s just daring to tell the truth about Islam.

Comment #66: CBrachyrhynchos  on  11/22  at  05:14 PM

This doesn’t make Dawkins a Prop 8 supporter, not by a longshot.

I didn’t say he was. I said he was “reluctant” (according to a link that I should have bookmarked when I had the chance) which puts him in the same boat as most Democrats IMO. I’m very happy when people put their personal feelings aside in the name of fairness, but these generally are not going to be the leaders of political change.

But as I can’t find the comment in question, I’ll withdraw the observation about Dawkins. There’s certainly abundant other evidence that atheists are not necessarily politically enlightened.

Comment #67: CBrachyrhynchos  on  11/22  at  05:25 PM

Which makes sense when you’re talking about science education, but it makes less sense when you’re looking at sexism and heterosexism where post-enlightenment and secular ideologies have only a marginally better track record than the religious ones.

Are you actually naive enough to think that liberal religion would exist at all without the pressure of rationalism? Without the secularizing push of the Renaissance and the Enlightenment Christianity would still exist entirely in its medieval form. Liberal religion is nothing but a halfway house toward secularism.
It’s difficult to see why its residuum of superstition has any remaining value, except as a sort of emotional anodyne. Which I don’t begrudge to liberal religionists since I prefer that people be happy as long as they’re not harming anyone else, but liberal religionists really have no call to get grandiose and/or self-righteous about it. A sloppy mental habit can be more or less harmless without actually being admirable.

Comment #68: Steve LaBonne  on  11/22  at  05:35 PM

However, this interview by Dawkins points to a common theme among New Atheists that coalitions that include religious liberals are misguided attempts to win a superficial skirmish rather than the underlying war.

I don’t agree with the effectiveness of Dawkins’ position here, but I understand the logic—his primary concern is not social justice but rationalism and scientific integrity, and that prioritisation makes many otherwise sympathetic liberals and progressives uncomfortable.

That and I’ve seen too many conversations where Hitchins is given a free pass for being a jingoist bastard because he’s just daring to tell the truth about Islam.

I’ll give you Hitchens. The man doesn’t know the meaning of the word “moderate,” so when he swings it’s only from one extreme position to another. As an atheist, all I can say to him is “Stop helping. Please!”

I give a bit more of a pass, but just a bit, to the gleeful sexist Bill Maher, who’s trying to popularise atheism. Unfortunately, he’s hobbled by his chosen medium, which means that he’s limited to taking cheap shots at easy targets. It’s funny, but that only gets one so far.

Comment #69: Gracchus.  on  11/22  at  05:37 PM

Hey, Amanda, did you eat any cashew chicken while you were in Springfield?  It’s the hometown specialty.  If so, where did you go?

Comment #70: Reece  on  11/22  at  05:43 PM

Unfortunately, he’s hobbled by his chosen medium, which means that he’s limited to taking cheap shots at easy targets.

He’s more hobbled by the fact that he’s not actually rational- he promotes all sorts of woo that’s just as dumb as the religious beliefs he mocks.

Comment #71: Steve LaBonne  on  11/22  at  05:46 PM

He’s more hobbled by the fact that he’s not actually rational- he promotes all sorts of woo that’s just as dumb as the religious beliefs he mocks.

That too, I’ll agree. His anti-vax stuff is especially bad, even though it mainly amounts to JAQ-ing off.

Comment #72: Gracchus.  on  11/22  at  05:55 PM

@71: Are you actually naive enough…

Well, I didn’t write anything related to the origins of liberal religion. But I find this statement largely incorrect. A part of my religious upbringing involved family “vacations” to historical conferences on communal societies. As a result, I was exposed to the fact that you had fervently zealous religious groups that considered themselves the true prophets and interpreters of scriptures advocating everything from lifelong celibacy to free-love polygamy. It’s not an especially new conflict, and in fact, modern fundamentalist movements started in the early 20th century in direct response to perceived liberalization.

While I agree that liberal religion isn’t correct, I’m not willing to turn activism that’s intended to help people in the near future into a battleground over the moral foundations of practical political action on peace, justice, civil rights, and tolerance.

Comment #73: CBrachyrhynchos  on  11/22  at  06:02 PM

But I find this statement largely incorrect. A part of my religious upbringing involved family “vacations” to historical conferences on communal societies. ... It’s not an especially new conflict, and in fact, modern fundamentalist movements started in the early 20th century in direct response to perceived liberalization.

This reply is a non sequitur. Are you aware that history goes back a lot father than your personal history? And even, mirabile dictu, farther back then the 20th century? I stand by what I said. In its very origins liberal religion is simply a parasite on rationalism. It could not have developed had the growing habit of rational inquiry not begun to weaken the hold of dogma. Why you think that the fundamentalist reaction to this phenomenon is an argument against the phenomenon’s existence, I can’t imagine.

Comment #74: Steve LaBonne  on  11/22  at  06:13 PM

I found this interesting, from the Wiki on Jesuits(which my tab has labeled as “Society of Jesus”)

Early works

The Jesuits were founded just before the Counter-Reformation (or at least before the date those historians with a classical view of the counter reformation hold to be the beginning of the Counter-Reformation), a movement whose purpose was to reform the Catholic Church from within and to counter the Protestant Reformers, whose teachings were spreading throughout Catholic Europe.

As part of their service to the Roman Church, the Jesuits encouraged people to continue their obedience to scripture as interpreted by Catholic doctrine. Ignatius is known to have written: “...: I will believe that the white that I see is black if the hierarchical Church so defines it.”[15]

Ignatius and the early Jesuits did recognize, though, that the hierarchical Church was in dire need of reform. Some of their greatest struggles were against corruption, venality, and spiritual lassitude within the Roman Catholic Church. Ignatius’s insistence on an extremely high level of academic preparation for ministry, for instance, was a deliberate response to the relatively poor education of much of the clergy of his time. The Jesuit vow against “ambitioning prelacies” was a deliberate effort to prevent greed for money or power invading Jesuit circles.

Comment #75: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/22  at  06:20 PM

@77: This reply is a non sequitur. Are you aware that history goes back a lot father than your personal history?

You do know that I’m talking about groups that developed as part of the Reformation and established a presence in the United States in the 18th and 19th centuries, do you not? The basic problem here is that Fundamentalism didn’t develop in reaction to 19th century freethought. It developed in reaction to mainstream religious hierarchies that were not remotely “liberal” either by modern standards or the standards of the 19th century.

Comment #76: CBrachyrhynchos  on  11/22  at  06:28 PM

You do know that I’m talking about groups that developed as part of the Reformation and established a presence in the United States in the 18th and 19th centuries, do you not? The basic problem here is that Fundamentalism didn’t develop in reaction to 19th century freethought. It developed in reaction to mainstream religious hierarchies that were not remotely “liberal” either by modern standards or the standards of the 19th century.

This too makes not a jot of difference in what I said. The fundamentalist reaction was against a liberal trend in the mainline denominations that, continued further, eventually gave rise to contemporary liberal denominations like the UUA and UCC. But even modern mainline Protestantism (and Catholicism) have gone a lot further in this direction than was even imaginable before the Renaissance. All these trends are of a piece and are the fruit of the rise of rational, critical thought.

Comment #77: Steve LaBonne  on  11/22  at  06:41 PM

Jews don’t promote Bible reading either - they promote the same circumscribed “Bible study” approach that gets you to all the “good parts” without exposing you to the contradictions. Or, if you are exposed to the contradictions, they have a vast weight of logical backbending “scholarship” to show you how black really means white, up really means down, and there’s that whole second half of the Bible you don’t even need to worry about, because that’s for the goyim.

No synagogue I’ve ever been to promotes any type of approach that gets just “the good parts.” Torah readings happen at services, chanted in Hebrew by the Rabbi or the Cantor, you’re encouraged to read along in English. There is a prescribed Torah portion and Haftarah portion. The Rabbi will discuss the topics of both.

Torah study is portrayed as one of the better things to do with your life, but when you get down to it, the Rabbi is hired not because she/he is closer to G-d or knows G-d better, but because scholars need to live somehow, they serve a role as community service, and Rabbis are supposed to do all the stuff that people would do if they had the time or knew the rituals themselves.

Jewish emphasis on literacy is more along “Read these authors because they’re Jewish and write about the Jewish experience.” these days. So I read Mazel, the story of three generations of Jewish women, and books by Primo Levi and so on. For my experience, they’re all much better prose than the Tanahk, which is fairly dry.

However, I’ve also had a Rabbi who has said “Being Jewish has nothing to do with believing in G-d.”

So I’m a Jewish Atheist. As I like to say “If people didn’t enjoy following entirely arbitrary rules, we’d never have invented Simon Says.”

Comment #78: BenYitzhak  on  11/22  at  06:43 PM

But even modern mainline Protestantism (and Catholicism) have gone a lot further in this direction than was even imaginable before the Renaissance.

Adding, and had already done so by the advent of Biblical criticism in the 18th century, if not earlier.

Comment #79: Steve LaBonne  on  11/22  at  06:44 PM

Leave it to Dana to ask the really important questions around here.

Leave it to Dana to entertain sweaty fantasies abotu Amanda being pseudo-sexually humiliated.

Comment #80: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/22  at  06:47 PM

Steve LaBonne: My objection is that it’s hard to call this “rationalism” (which, ironically, includes fundamentalism with its focus on textual rather than authoritative interpretation) remotely secular when you have group-marriage communes awaiting inevitable rapture.

Comment #81: CBrachyrhynchos  on  11/22  at  06:56 PM

@CBrachyrhynchos

While I agree that liberal religion isn’t correct, I’m not willing to turn activism that’s intended to help people in the near future into a battleground over the moral foundations of practical political action on peace, justice, civil rights, and tolerance.

FWIW, I agree with you, but I do think that there is both long- and short-term risk in ignoring the divisions between the religious and the atheists in progressive organizations.

Of possible relevance, this was posted at Pam’s House Blend a couple of weeks ago on “The New Problem of the Gaytheist”.  The comments section is incredibly heated and, perhaps, disheartening to those of us who hope that progressive causes would be as welcoming and tolerant of atheists as they are of other minorities.

Comment #82: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/22  at  06:57 PM

Was there much said about “global warming skepticism” that conveniently ignores much of the data, and how to be skeptical about the belief that humans aren’t at all involved in this?

Comment #83: Ms Kate  on  11/22  at  07:06 PM

It’s not reluctance in the sense of bigotry, it’s wrestling with an apparent scientific conundrum. Dawkins discusses gay relationships in terms of their seeming incompatibility with natural selection, which at its heart is all about reproduction.

Reproduction doesn’t buy you shit if offspring don’t survive.

I don’t understand why people who think along such lines (not sure if Dawkins is one of them) can’t seem to grok that human reproduction also involves very intensive investment in offspring, some of which can come from others without offspring, and sometimes depends on an ability to control population within either an extended family group or small society.

Comment #84: Ms Kate  on  11/22  at  07:13 PM

Steve, the Jesuit tradition started BEFORE the rennaissance and is credited by some with helping it happen. It did (as Dark Avenger notes above) serve to advance the Pope’s ideas, but it was also the first large educational push in Europe after the Middle Ages. They helped translate languages (Japanese, Chinese, ...) and thus brought old/new ideas into Europe. They were far from secular or liberal, but because they pushed education they ended up advancing secular ideas.

Comment #85: JohnL  on  11/22  at  07:23 PM

I don’t understand why people who think along such lines (not sure if Dawkins is one of them) can’t seem to grok that human reproduction also involves very intensive investment in offspring

Dawkins does get it. In fact, it’s one of the suggestions he offers above, that homosexuals contributed to the raising of children in primitive societies, thus creating a place for themselves. How this translates into survival of a “gay gene” is another matter, with several plausible theories existing despite the biological reproduction conundrum.

More importantly, this view a counterpart to Dawkins’ very strong views that religion (esp. the Abrahamic ones) tends to work against creating a place for homosexuals in society, often to the extent of eliminating the homosexuals themselves:

After the war, when Turing’s role was no longer top-secret, he should have been knighted and fêted as a saviour of his nation. Instead, this gentle, stammering, eccentric genius was destroyed, for a ‘crime’, committed in private, which harmed nobody. Once again, the unmistakable trademark of the faith-based moralizer is to care passionately about what other people do (or even think) in private.

Comment #86: Gracchus.  on  11/22  at  07:37 PM

Steve, the Jesuit tradition started BEFORE the rennaissance and is credited by some with helping it happen.

And like Aquinas and Dante, could not have happened without the impact of non-religious rational thought- namely, the Western rediscovery of Aristotle. Like CBrachyrhynchos, you’re not even making a dent in my point that every stage in the liberalization of Western Christianity was dependent on various external sources of rational, secular thought. I really don’t think this point is arguable.

Comment #87: Steve LaBonne  on  11/22  at  07:49 PM

To be fair, some Catholics do read the entire Bible and still believe—look at Jesuits. Jesuits helped to bring about the Rennaissance and the new emphasis on learning in Europe (of course, other Catholics had helped to bring down education in Europe).
Comment #62: JohnL

Actually, no.
The Jesuits were a push back against rationalism.  It was The Church’s answer to philosophers who dismantled the bible as contradictory, irrational, barbaric and working against the betterment of mankind.  The Jesuits were created to use debate and cleaver linguistic tricks to keep the learned in The Church so they would continue to tithe and donate their estates when they died.
It started to backlash against the church when a majority of the Jesuits that began studying the bible began having crisis of faith, not taking the bible literally or turning agnostic.  There were major purges of the Jesuit monasteries because of “Heresies.”

Comment #88: cynickal  on  11/22  at  07:51 PM

Here’s a contribution from an Atheist who has taken the trouble to read the Bible:

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/11/22/jesus-hearts-slavery

Comment #89: judybrowni  on  11/22  at  07:51 PM

Steve, the Jesuit tradition started BEFORE the rennaissance and is credited by some with helping it happen.

I think you have your facts wrong.

The Society was founded by St. Ignatius of Loyola, who after being wounded in a battle, experienced a religious conversion and composed the Spiritual Exercises in order to help others to follow Christ more closely. In 1534, Ignatius gathered six young men, including St. Francis Xavier and Bl. Pierre Favre, and together they professed vows of poverty and chastity, and then later, obedience, including a special vow of obedience to the Pope.

Most historians agree that the ideas that characterized the Renaissance had their origin in late 13th century Florence, in particular with the writings of Dante Alighieri (1265–1321) and Francesco Petrarca (1304–1374), as well as the painting of Giotto di Bondone (1267–1337).

Comment #90: cynickal  on  11/22  at  07:55 PM

I’m really tired of Christians protesting events such as these, or anything that doesn’t gibe with their beliefs. A group of Bible humpers was at Ozzfest this August, protesting against it. I wish I’d seen them: I would have told them I was going to protest at their church this Sunday. Bastards.

Comment #91: pitbullgirl65  on  11/22  at  08:09 PM

@cynickal

Moreover, the Jesuits are smack-dab in the midst of the Reformation.  If that wasn’t a dust-up between critical thought and religion (or, in the case of Henry VIII, secular interests and religious belief), I’m not sure what would be. 

None of the conclusions reached by the religious leaders (be they Luther, Henry, or the Popes) during the Reformation went quite as far as today’s atheists would have preferred, but I think it would be a mistake to claim that they weren’t grappling with the effects of applying rational thought to matters of belief with rational thought coming out slightly ahead of where it had been previously.

Comment #92: Atheist, A Feminist  on  11/22  at  08:10 PM

Yeah, I think I was thinking of the Enlightenment (it’s been awhile since I thought of this).

Comment #93: JohnL  on  11/22  at  08:39 PM

The Liberal/Academic/Intellectual qualities of contemporary Jesuits are vastly overrated. They’re part of the institutional Roman Catholic Church. And, at the Jesuit university I attended, Boston College, they were just as anti-gay, anti-woman and woo-infused as the rest of the RCC. They just read a few more things to add a nice gloss to their anti-gay, anti-woman woo.

Comment #94: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  11/22  at  08:43 PM

/me holds head in hands…

a’ight…

cause of rational thinking?

War.

When people got tired of being rational just for how sharp they can make that sword—and all the attendant risks of death and loss of limb, they decided to apply all that ingenuity for and against the old-ass ideology that determines whether a war was just.  Books got parsed, speeches are made, you grok the lingo?

In any event most of the non-nasty parts of the Enlightenment came from the urbane elements of Dar Al Islam in the process of trade and greed for gold, immortality, the works.

There wasn’t no wave of people becoming rational…Just a bunch of seriously crazy people who were induced to think critically about one thing or another, with the help of the generally sane who, for some reason, was well educated, well read, and somehow managed to be openminded despite that.

Comment #95: shah8  on  11/22  at  08:43 PM

my observation is that Christian church’s seem to keep changing with the current fads or politically correct ways of our society.  For me, truth is a principle that does not change throughout time.

Comment #96: WhiteSnow  on  11/23  at  09:16 AM

The argument that revolutions in Christian thought were “secular” because they appropriated Aristotle, reinterpreted his being as their God, and gave him a cushy position in hell, that’s an absurdly weak form of secularism.

Comment #97: CBrachyrhynchos  on  11/23  at  11:26 AM

The argument that revolutions in Christian thought were “secular” because they appropriated Aristotle, reinterpreted his being as their God, and gave him a cushy position in hell, that’s an absurdly weak form of secularism.

Of course it was at first- it was the beginning of a long process.  The Neoplatonic-mystical Christianity of late antiquity, which was not seriously challenged in the West until the 12th century or so, simply did not have within itself the intellectual resources to go in a more liberal direction. The fact that the transformation that begin with the rediscovery of Aristotle (and his great Arab epigone Ibn Sina) was not instantaneous is a truly ridiculous objection- of course it wasn’t, as if such things ever are.

If you want to see what would have happened if such non-Christian intellectual influences had not taken firm root, you have only to look at the disastrous lobotomy suffered by the Islamic world after the clerics succeeded in snuffing out such influences in the wake of the disorder caused by the Mongol and Turkish invasions.

Comment #98: Steve LaBonne  on  11/23  at  03:52 PM

People were so hyper-focused on “omg teh atheism!” that the reason for the protest in the first place was lost.  It’s not that atheism will drive religious people away, it’s that skepticism has such a fascinating breadth to it that is being neglected.  Beyond UFOs and Jesus, there are also useful applications of skepticism to medical claims, financial claims, social claims (thank you for speaking about sexism, btw), and even popular science claims.  Yes, I’m already an atheist, I get it.  But what now can I do to improve my life, and how can skepticism help me?

Comment #100: The Nerd  on  11/27  at  01:49 PM
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