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Next entry: This Is Why We Need Buses Previous entry: I Don’t Need Saving

Smart cars disappoint

I got all excited when I saw Farhad Manjoo had a review up of something called the Smart ForTwo, which is a backseat-less small car that can fit into even the scariest small parallel parking spots.  “Ah-a!,” I thought, “People are beginning to wise up to a frustration that drove me out of driving and into bicycling, which is the clusterfuck nature of traffic and parking makes driving just plain miserable.”  Plus, I have a pick-up truck, so I’m already convinced that a lot of people need no more than two seats.  This Smart Fortwo actually has more storage space for luggage and groceries than my truck does without using the truckbed, something you often don’t want to do with something like a suitcase.  But the fact of the matter is most cars out there are taking up a lot more physical space than the owners pretty much ever need—-backseats that never touch a human butt, giant truckbeds that never haul a piece of furniture or a bag of compost.  Massive engines that never get put to use hauling anything more than human beings.  My annoyance at this trend far outstrips my environmental concerns.  On a certain level, it’s also symbolic of the wastefulness of American life.  I’m also easily annoyed by houses that have tons of square footage and the owners have to start being creative about filling it.  I wish the sleeker, smaller trend in computers would spread out to other aspects of American life, but so far, big and garish seems like it’s here to stay.  So any move in the right direction—-prioritizing the compact, the simple, the maneuverable, the economical over the garish, the wasteful, and imposing—-gets me all excited.
And it does seem that the Smart Fortwo has very real advantages for maneuvering through traffic and parking.  That’s good.  Make those people in giant SUVs drool with jealousy as you slip into a nice parking spot with your itty-bitty car.  It might open up your mind to other ways to get around that opt you out of the worst parts of traffic.  Dismantling the concept that cars have to look a certain way, or that bigger is better, is all very good.

But upon reading the post in-depth, I found that this car just doesn’t even come close to being the innovation it looks like.  The gas mileage is 33 mpg in the city and 41 mpg on the highway, which is good, especially for the price of the car, but not revolutionary good.  And if the ease of parking the thing just encourages people to drive more, it’s counterproductive.  The fact of the matter is that it doesn’t lay any kind of sufficient challenge, outside of aesthetic, to the wastefulness of a car culture where people are using an average of like one gallon of gasoline to move one single human being 20 miles.  Until we get around the wastefulness of so much energy used to move so little mass, we’re going to be stuck in this loop. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:48 PM • (104) Comments

My neighbor was going to buy a smartcar, but then realized that he could get better mileage AND more interior room and comfort with a tiny Toyota or Kia.

Comment #1: KMTBERRY  on  07/02  at  07:56 PM

I’m probably going to get crucified for this, but my next car might be a Dodge Challenger R/T. I’ve always wanted a muscle car since early childhood, when I rode around the block in a neighbor’s ‘69 Camaro, fuel economy be damned. Besides, how could you argue with good looks like this?

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/2009-dodge-challenger-brochure/890644/

Comment #2: ferrarimanf355  on  07/02  at  08:14 PM

The real benefit to these in europe is not the fuel efficiency, but the size on tiny narrow streets that were created before the invention of the car.

After living in italy, I realized that the largest cars over there were the equvalent of a camry.

Comment #3: sam  on  07/02  at  08:14 PM

Are you spamming my blog, dude?

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/02  at  08:25 PM

In high school a friend of mine had a CRX that I think got around 50 MPG what ever happened to cars like that?

Comment #5: John Hussein Rove  on  07/02  at  08:26 PM

Besides, how could you argue with good looks like this?

Ewwww. I pity your (bad) taste.

Comment #6: elgie  on  07/02  at  08:29 PM

A friend is driving the smart car with a manual shift option on the steering wheel.
He maintains that he is getting 41MPG around town (NYC) and 48-50 on the highway. He maintains that one has to know how to drive the car, not pushing on the gas as the RPMs wind up but rather ease off to have it shift up. On his version he manually shifts.
I thought the same thing you did about the gas mileage when I read a review in the NYT .

Comment #7: Byron  on  07/02  at  08:29 PM

It will be noted that the car plays an important role in Charlie Stross’s “The Jennifer Morgue”.  The scene where Bob drives it on an autobahn seems about as scary as that highway sequence in teh later Matrix movies…

Comment #8: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/02  at  08:32 PM

One thing I don’t understand is people who get bigger engines than they need. The Toyota Camry comes with a 4- or 6-cylinder engine. The 6 is more expensive, gets lower mileage, and the 4 will take you wherever you want to go just fine. So why get power for power’s sake?

Comment #9: Bitter Scribe  on  07/02  at  08:37 PM

People need to keep in mind that the Smart is still a Mercedes and is built like one.  Its mileage isn’t great because safety features add weight and strain the small motor.

I’d still rather go with the Mini but the Mini’s like $7,000 more so it isn’t quite comparable.

Comment #10: Rob  on  07/02  at  08:39 PM

So I guess I’m good to go with my 16 year old Ford Escort, 4 cylinder, 5 speed manual transmission that gets roughly 32 MPH city and 38-40 MPH highway.  Still.

Comment #11: dakine01  on  07/02  at  08:41 PM

You’re trading off huge safety considerations though.  You have any airbags?  ABS brakes?

Comment #12: Rob  on  07/02  at  08:45 PM

I understand that people frequently need to buy new things, but the ‘environmentally friendly’ product drives me up the wall, because none of the rest of the culture around it has changed.  What’s more environmentally friendly: bamboo-paper plates (no deforestation!) or bleached, glazed china ones that last 60, 70 years.  Yup.  Buying too much stuff, especially disposable stuff, is generally a much bigger problem for us than what that stuff is made of.

Comment #13: JoeBlu  on  07/02  at  08:46 PM

rob, have you looked at the toyota yaris? its cheaper and has better mileage. my fiance has the hatchback version and its a lifesaver for us living in the country with these gas prices. when he was car shopping we looked at minis and were overall more impressed with the yaris, tho it isnt quite as sexy to look at.

Comment #14: jessilikewhoa  on  07/02  at  08:48 PM

Consumer Reports has been scathing about this car.  Of course, they’re in the pocket of Big Tightwad.

(They prefer the Honda Fit hatchback, with comparable mileage and much more comfort for the same price.  I love ours.)

Comment #15: FlipYrWhig  on  07/02  at  08:48 PM

oh, and any european readers feel free to correct me, but isnt the euro version of the smart an electric plug in thats a good deal smaller than the US version, or am i thinking of a different car?

Comment #16: jessilikewhoa  on  07/02  at  08:49 PM

yeah, im pretty sure consumer reports hates the yaris too. they also hate my 2002 dodge neon, but so far as i can tell it works just fine.

Comment #17: jessilikewhoa  on  07/02  at  08:50 PM

“Are you spamming my blog, dude?”

Me? No, I would never do that. I’m just pointing out that people shouldn’t rely on Greenpeace to get their car opinions…

“Ewwww. I pity your (bad) taste.”

Hey, it’s not like Dodge is offering it in Panther Pink or Go Man Go! yet…

Comment #18: ferrarimanf355  on  07/02  at  08:52 PM

I test drove one and it was a real disappointment. It handles like a truck and feels like a riding mower.

And it gets a few more MPG than my little corolla.

Actually what i would really like to get now is a Vespa.  I’m seeing them all over Cleveland.

Comment #19: pablo  on  07/02  at  09:04 PM

Kinda confirms my impression - a cute but conspicuous car because of it’s size.  While it’s attractive to the non-child-towing, it’s a complete boondoggle to anyone with more than one child or spouse.  I drove a pickup for a few years - one of the small Toyota bakki - and from that experience, I know I can’t drive a 2-seater car at this point in my life.  i was also running a computer repair service on the side, and not being able to lock people’s computers up in the cab or fearing unsecured computers sliding all over the truck bed was a major worry.

In case anyone’s interested, The SmartEV is a electric conversion being mass refitted in the UK.  Considering the energy wasted in most combustion engine cars is on the order of 50-80% of the energy released by the gas, it would be interesting to see what the energy efficiency of the SmartEV would be.

Comment #20: idiosynchronic  on  07/02  at  09:04 PM

oh, and any european readers feel free to correct me, but isnt the euro version of the smart an electric plug in thats a good deal smaller than the US version, or am i thinking of a different car?

Not a european, but I did live in milan for a while (06-07).  The only smarts that I ever saw used gas, but it’s certainly possible that there’s a plugin version.  It’s somewhat hard to tell from a promotional photo, but the photo above definitely looks a bit “longer” than the traditional european smart car.  That being said, it’s also a convertible, so the difference may be the room it needs to “store” the roof.  All that being said, there are a variety of models that come in slightly different sizes.

Comment #21: sam  on  07/02  at  09:09 PM

@ jessilikewhoa:  IIRC Consumer Reports dislikes the Yaris but likes the Fit and the Nissan Versa.

Comment #22: FlipYrWhig  on  07/02  at  09:10 PM

FlipyrWhig:

Consumer Reports has been scathing about this car.  Of course, they’re in the pocket of Big Tightwad.

(They prefer the Honda Fit hatchback, with comparable mileage and much more comfort for the same price.  I love ours.)

Scion xD, here.  I haven’t seen the CR review of it, but I had an xB (the Toaster), so trading for the xD was far more feasible than buying a Fit.  and I like the stereo a lot more.  smile

Comment #23: idiosynchronic  on  07/02  at  09:10 PM

That lawn mower of a car is likely to become scrap metal on I-35.

But I agree - with a car that light, there should be better gas mileage without having to get out and push it.  The old Kia hatchback (aka the Ford Festiva) managed to get 45-50 mpg highway.

My manual transmission sedan gets decent mileage - about 40 highway, and I’m even disappointed with that.

Comment #24: Michael  on  07/02  at  09:14 PM

Mercedes is going to offer electric version of this \“smart\” car, btw.

http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/06/20/daimler-wants-two-electric-cars-by-2010/


Tho\’ VW will offer offer several new engines including this strange one…

http://blogs.automobilemag.com/6258217/green/volkswagen-may-build-one-liter-eco-car-by-2010/index.html

their TSI dual engine just won an award. very fancy combustion engine (it\‘s not dead yet)

and of course Honda and Toyota will offer plug hybrid, while Honda lease edition of first fuel cell.

so plenty of new engines will be offered in the next 2 years.

Comment #25: Tinky  on  07/02  at  09:14 PM

@ idio:  I don’t remember CR’s views on the Scions.  (I like them from the outside; never climbed into one.)  We got our Fit a year ago when Scion was in the midst of its big redesign, so we didn’t investigate those.

Comment #26: FlipYrWhig  on  07/02  at  09:16 PM

One other thing - what is this “FMVSS 500” regulation that restricts electric vehicles to 25mph?  It’s referred to from the ZENN motor company, but obviously also affects ZAP!, and GEM electric cars as well.  Why are all the electric car companies all going for the LSV NHTSA certifications?

Comment #27: idiosynchronic  on  07/02  at  09:27 PM

Whig - I love the old xB and xD both, and xB got great ratings from just about everyone.  I didn’t like the redesign of the xB though.  Too big, big blind spots, depressed gas millage, un-ergonomic styling in the cabin.  The new xD took all the complaints of the xA and xB and fixed them.  The xD is my Blue Bulldog.

Comment #28: idiosynchronic  on  07/02  at  09:36 PM

Heck, what I want is a Toyota Aygo—a three-cylinder ‘city car’—but they’re only sold in Europe.

But they’re cute, fun, bigger than the Smart Car and get better mileage.

Comment #29: jrochest  on  07/02  at  09:41 PM

I would love to get a Prius since it reminds me of my first Toyota (and why did my Celica get 35 mpg 20 years ago, anyway?) but I’ll probably end up with a much cheaper Scion once my RAV-4 poops out.

Comment #30: Mnemosyne  on  07/02  at  09:43 PM

I’m holding off until I find something that gets excellent mileage and is still a hauling car. I need something that will haul garbage to the transfer station, trees home from the nursery, three big dogs to shows or my best friend’s house, and three friends (one of them weighing over 500 pounds) from the ferry dock to the house every Friday night. Right now I drive a Toyota 4Runner. I would trade it in on a hybrid of the same size if I could afford one and if I could find a hybrid SUV that got over 30 mpg. As it is, the hybrids I’m seeing out there are too expensive, too small, and the SUVs don’t have the mileage bang for the buck I’m seeking.

I’ll go with an electric one as soon as I get a chance, but I really do need that hauling car most of the time I use a car. A smart car or other little car would be a good runaround car for local errands and getting to doctor’s appointments, but by and large, I just stay home these days and don’t drive at all.

Comment #31: River  on  07/02  at  09:43 PM

A Toyota Prius (we’ve had one for 5 years) gets this kind of mileage, and can carry 4 people and a pretty good load of cargo in the back.  I guess I don’t get this thing.

Comment #32: Green Eagle  on  07/02  at  09:45 PM

The key is that you don’t even NEED to parallel park with these - they are as long as regular cars are wide, so you can park perpendicular to the kerb.

Comment #33: pepito  on  07/02  at  10:14 PM

Yeah, my ‘92 Sentra got better mileage than that car. Too bad. I could use all the help I can get with parallel parking tho.

Comment #34: brandon  on  07/02  at  10:17 PM

My daily driver is an MGB.  Same concept as the smart car, but much nicer looks.  Really about the same gas mileage, too, and super fun to drive.  Plus, it was manufactured in 1970 [in England], so the greenhouse gases produced in manufacturing the steel were committed nearly 40 years ago.

Yes, it pollutes more than a modern car, but I only drive it about 5,000 miles/year.  I commute 3 times a week to work on my bicycle.  It’d be nice if someone came up with a nice hybrid or electric modernised version of this kind of car.  The Tesla is kind of close, but the styling is too extreme and the price is too high. 

As far as the smart car goes, maybe you were just expecting too much, Amanda.  It’s really a conventional automobile, only smaller.  If you were looking for something really technologically advanced, it isn’t the [rather inappropriately named] Smart Car.  It’s a specialized short range city hauler.  There are a limited number of people who will actually be the market for this car in this part of the country, but for them, it’s a great deal.  The fact that the gas mileage isn’t fantastic won’t matter for people who don’t go more than 10 miles a trip. 

I only live 5 miles from work, but I prefer my classic car.  Well, a couple of days a week.  The rest of the time, I 2 wheel it.

Comment #35: Mark B. from Austin TX  on  07/02  at  10:19 PM

Mark B. i am so incredibly jealous i may be green. i looooove little old euro roadsters. id probably knife a granny for a fiat.

Comment #36: jessilikewhoa  on  07/02  at  10:25 PM

My 2003 Civic is bigger, much more comfortable, seats four, and gets about the same mileage as a Smart.  I’d also be willing to bet that it’s much less expensive to repair and service because there are millions of Hondas out there and not too many Smarts yet, so parts will be hard to get and pricey.

OTOH, there are LOTS of them in old European cities, like Florence.  I was there in January and I swear at least a third of the cars were Smarts.  The biggest thing I saw was an Alfa Romeo, which was about the size of a Lexus.  My little Civic would have definitely been on the large size.

Also, I *think* I saw an electric version of the Smart.  The styling was very similar, it was labeled as electric, and it was parked outside the Pucci flagship store on the Via Tornabuoni every single day.  I assume it belonged to one of the Puccis, and a short one at that, because there is no way anyone over 5’6” could have sat down in it.

Comment #37: Ellid  on  07/02  at  10:30 PM

I drive a Yaris (the 2-door hatchback version) and I love it.  My wife drives a Fit.  I think my car has a much smoother ride, although hers does have a bit more power.  That said, I’ve spent enough time merging at highway speeds to not be worried about the power level for either car.  Neither are sports cars, but I have no complaints.

Comment #38: MBL  on  07/02  at  10:33 PM

Not to give too much of my super secret location away but the company I work for is having a competition where, at the end, you can choose either a SmartCar or, get this, 16,000 hard cash.

Yeah, guess what most people want?

*If* I did win it I of course would take the money and use it to get either another Toyota Camry (I’ve owned one for the last eight years and I’m hooked) or a Yaris to stay in the Toyota family.

Also, a friend of mine who lived in Italy for a year drove one and he said it terrified him whenever the car got above 50mph. He said it felt like the car would explode, which just made me think of the dandelion car from Pushing Daisies.

Comment #39: UltraMagnus  on  07/02  at  11:26 PM

This one is inexpensive, guaranteed to gain you compliments on your appearance when used regularly, and runs on a wide range of biofuels:

http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?sid=08Sirrus

Comment #40: J@ne Futzinfarb  on  07/02  at  11:34 PM

We have a small minivan that gets about 18-20 mpg city.  We don’t really drive enough during the summer for that to matter - and when we do, we need the room and need it bad.

That said, Zog is on the list for a Smart at a locked-in low price.  We may buy and flip it, though.  I’m not convinced that we need a second car, but the Smart is an all-weather urban motorcycle alternative for us.

I do think that we might want to reconsider, as those times when driving is indicated we often want the kids in the car for some of the time. 

I think it will get down to where Zog ends up working after this current contract.  For now, we bike.

Comment #41: Ms Kate  on  07/02  at  11:36 PM

The smart is a cute car, a gateway car for Americans to get used to tiny cars (which are our future, like it or not,) and fun.  But I’m not going to buy anything for a few years while I see what becomes the dominant new technology.  Mercedes announced that by 2015 it will not make engines that use gasoline, so I’d look at what they and other car companies are looking at and avoid a gas car for my next vehicle (I have two right now, so I can hold out.)  I think diesel hybrids with electric plug-in modes is the likely longer-term next big thing, so of course no one is really making them right now.  I’d guess that pure electrics are going to be it for the cities, and I like the idea of converting my semi-beater of a 1979 Postal Jeep into a purely electric vehicle for in-town trips.  Should cost much less than any new car, can be modified with a kit or parts from www.e-volks.com (looks like a semi-steep price but I’d end up with something fun, economical, and so ugly no one in his right mind would steal,) plus it will be much greener than buying anything new or many things used.  And since it still won’t have air conditioning, it will get me to use the bike more.

Comment #42: jon  on  07/02  at  11:39 PM

Here is my daily driver: Novara Transfer

And my backup vehicle/travelling companion:Pocket Tourist

Even a smart doesn’t fold up and go on a train, on a plane ...

Comment #43: Ms Kate  on  07/02  at  11:49 PM

The smart is a cute car, a gateway car for Americans to get used to tiny cars (which are our future, like it or not,) and fun.

I’m holding out for a diesel-powered Mini Cooper myself.

Adorable little car + 65 mpg?  Yes, please!

Comment #44: Mnemosyne  on  07/02  at  11:52 PM

I disliked the Smart the moment it hit the market. Like Mark B. said, it really is just a completely conventional car that’s been tapped a bit with a shrink ray, and the mileage didn’t scale up at anywhere near the rate the size scaled down. The Mini Cooper is, I think, even worse in the mileage/size-ratio department. My sister-in-law was looking at it the last time she got a new car and didn’t like it much at all, and that was one of the reasons she cited. Plus, both the Smart and the Mini are kinda dumb looking, IMHO.

Me, I’ve been looking at the Prius for months, but then last week I went to the Honda dealership and fell in love with the Civic hybrid. Comparable mileage to the Prius (low-to-mid 40s/gal), but both the exterior and interior styling are quite a bit less wonky-sci-fi and it costs about $3-4k less for equivalent model levels. Plus, Toyota has specced out six or seven different equipment/trim/extras packages and the same number of paint colors, but then they won’t let you custom order; it’s just luck of the draw whether they make exactly the car you want and then ship it to your dealership. Honda, on the other hand, has just two models — whether or not you get a nav system is literally the only difference — and five colors. Limiting the options available somewhat counter-intuitively makes it much more likely that I’ll be able to get exactly the car I want. Also, from what I’ve been able to gather from just one visit to each dealership, the wait between down payment and delivery is a lot shorter for the Honda than for the Toyota.

I’ll probably wait a few months until the ‘09 model year is released to actually buy, but I’ve basically already made my decision.

(Upon rereading, this comment sounds a whole lot more like a sales pitch than I intended. I swear on the deliciousness of cheesecake that I don’t work for Honda, or know anyone who does.)

Comment #45: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/03  at  12:04 AM

I don’t see how the mileage on this car is good at all under any circumstances. It’s comparable to my relatively wasteful Fit (39.75mpg) with its upsized 1.5l engine for the US market rather than the more fuel efficient 1.3 everyone else gets and rather pathetic compared to the 3 cylinder 1.2l Subaru Justy I had nearly twenty years ago (I averaged around 44mpg). Need I mention the Fit and Justy have seating for five and a cargo area?

Comment #46: Kathygnome  on  07/03  at  12:11 AM

...and for hauling a weeks worth of groceries, or a couple of sacks of dogfood, or last month’s recyclables, or a bale of litter for the rabbits, or books to the library there’s this: 

http://www.burley.com/products/adventure/nomad.cfm

Comment #47: J@ne Futzinfarb  on  07/03  at  12:42 AM

Aw, look at the bitty car.

Comment #48: junk science  on  07/03  at  01:53 AM

Another Honda fan heard from.

I have a lady friend who expects me to buy a Smart, just because I was drooling over them on our European visits. The machines themselves don’t seem well suited to climbing or descending the twisty roads to my mountaintop home. Not to mention that my ‘99 Integra only has 73k miles and still snarls greedily. Granted, it only gets 32 mpg at best and I can’t get from OC to SF without a refill, but replacing it with anything but an all-electric strikes me as irresponsible.

The previous vehicle was a ‘92 Civic SI, 125HP, and though I love my Integra, I sometimes regret relinquishing that one, which, though ostensibly a mere econobox, kicked absolute ass. And would let me visit my sister without having to stop at a gas station.

Before that was an ‘84 Civix DX, 75HP, which could still pass nearly any other car climbing Tejon Pass (I-5). Shit, even my ‘63 Karmann-Ghia, 40HP, after its engine transplant, made it up the switchback with more verve and elan than nearly anybody I get stuck behind now.

Atheists do pray: “O clueless one with your lumbering truck, could you please move just a little bit over so I could get past you?” As we’re reminded, all prayers are answered, but the answer is generally “No.”

Comment #49: bad Jim  on  07/03  at  05:00 AM

I love small cars that are eco friendly that’s why I’m buying this beautiful sub compact.

http://www.marax.at/funpix/ford_f650_06.jpg

Comment #50: Jason  on  07/03  at  08:01 AM

The same car with the 33kW diesel engine gets 71 mpg. 52kW micro hybrid gets 53 mpg.

The standard engine 52 kW is quite strong for that small a car, so it’s not as efficient as it could be, despite the low top speed.

Comment #51: inge  on  07/03  at  08:29 AM

John Hussein Rove, In high school a friend of mine had a CRX that I think got around 50 MPG what ever happened to cars like that?

My first car was a Volkswagen Passat which got 40 mpg at Autobahn speed. (Top speed for that car was 110 mph, I usually went 90-100.) The new Passats are smaller inside,  have a stronger motor, are loaded with electronics and have a much heavier hull for better protection in case of an accident. All in all, they are carting around several hundred kilos more weight. So of course they use more gas…

Comment #52: inge  on  07/03  at  08:35 AM

PiaToR, re: the Autobahn scene in “The Jennifer Morgue”: Apart from it being the wrong autobahn, that scene was so true. “Some idiot with a cannon shooting Mercedes and Audis at me from behind.” Yes, exactly. Only the Hungarian trucks going 40 mph on the right lane being overtaken by Dutch trucks going 60 mph were missing, IIRC.

Rob: I’d still rather go with the Mini but the Mini’s like $7,000 more so it isn’t quite comparable.

The Mini, of course, is a BMW. It seems that cars which trade security for fuel efficiency are unsellable in Germany—no one builds them.

jessilikewhoa, re: electric cars in Europe?

Not that I know of. I haven’t seen an electric car in years. Mainstream development goes towards lighter materials and more intellligent engines.

Comment #53: inge  on  07/03  at  09:01 AM

“Why are all the electric car companies all going for the LSV NHTSA certifications?”

It’s seen as a more likely niche for most electric vehicles.  A lot of retired people will get them to go very short distances. I see a lot of them being used by universities for on-campus maintenance, etc.  Walking from one side of a campus to the other might be a couple miles and if you need to replace a PC or work for the the garden dept. you need something better than a bicycle, but don’t need a real car.

Plus the safety regs are much lower - reduced weight and cost.

Of course, none of these vehicles is a match for what the EV1 was made for (real highway use at normal speeds). 

But then again, GM easily wins the “They labored mightily and produced a mouse” award for meeting the threat of the Toyota and Honda hybrids by producing a hybrid SUV that gets 3mpg more than the non-hybrid version and only costs more than $50,000.

10-years from now, when America no longer produces cars at all, you’ll be able to point to this moment and the death of GM will need no further explanation…

Comment #54: MikeEss  on  07/03  at  09:16 AM

The Toyota Camry comes with a 4- or 6-cylinder engine. The 6 is more expensive, gets lower mileage, and the 4 will take you wherever you want to go just fine. So why get power for power’s sake?

Cars with a six cylinder engine are more enjoyable to drive, accelerate more smoothly, and make it up hills more effectively, at least in my experience. This is particularly true with the Camry since it is heavier than an economy car with a 4-cylinder engine.

What I expected from the Smart Car was the equivalent of a 4-wheeled moped: 70+ mpg, light, and quick. Otherwise, you might as well buy a used Honda Civic, save yourself money, and probably get better mileage than the Smart.

Comment #55: Tyro  on  07/03  at  10:06 AM

“One thing I don’t understand is people who get bigger engines than they need ... So why get power for power’s sake?”

For the sake of the power, silly! Some of us have a “need for speed” and are willing to forgo other things in life in order to have it. I know that most folks “don’t get it.” That’s fine. But there’s your answer.

Comment #56: Stephen  on  07/03  at  11:11 AM

The “Americans demand bigger engines!” thing pretty much boils down to anxious masculinity. 

In Europe, where the price of gas has been high for a long time, you see a lot of 1.2-liter, 1.5-liter, 2.0-liter, and a few under-1-liter cars (and these days at least half of those are diesels) and nobody thinks your dick is small because your engine is adequate instead of extravagant.

I just got passed this morning on my way to work by one after another huge SUV or full-size pickup, occupied by a single driver, and not being used for their work.  (Obviously if you’re in construction or something where you need a big truck there’s no problem having one.)

Some tiny 1-liter turbo-diesel (ideally a hybrid too) would be more than enough for almost all these people, but if they could buy one (a problem in the US) their neighbors and their friends would give them hell about having such a wimpy car.  So we don’t.

Until we wake up and rethink our approach to personal transportation, we’re gonna pay.  And pay.  And pay.  In an era of (probably) permanent $4+ gas, our day of reckoning is a lot closer…

Comment #57: MikeEss  on  07/03  at  11:32 AM

tyro: 4-wheeled moped: 70+ mpg, light, and quick.

The Smart car still weighs 750 kg—three times as much as a heavy motorbike, six times as much as the light scooters and mopeds that get 70+ mpg (and have a top speed of about 65 mph).

Of course, a very light small car with that milage already existed in the 1950s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isetta

Comment #58: inge  on  07/03  at  11:45 AM

When it’s not so dang hot here in Phoenix, I’ll ride my Charger electric assist bike to work. It’s a very hilly four mile ride, so the assist is appreciated. It has an easily hacked speed governor that’s supposed to keep it to 20 mph, but hacked it’s able to go a bit faster. It was not expensive ($800), and it really will get you places quick. I do wish they’d improve the batteries, which are lead acid and very heavy, but the company’s reasoning is, they’re cheap and easily replaced by the owner. It costs about 4¢ in electricity to recharge. I’ve got it tricked out with saddle bags, comfy seat, light and front shocks.

http://abc.eznettools.net/D300013/X300109/eBike1.html


As for cars, I am drooling over the Loremo from Germany, which may sell in the USA in 2010. It’s a lightweight four seater that, in the diesel configuration, they are claiming 100+ mpg. Kinda blue-sky for now.

http://evolution.loremo.com/index.php?lang=en

Comment #59: TikiHead  on  07/03  at  11:51 AM

I really need something like a 4-wheeled moped. I can’t get 2-wheeled vehicles to remain stable for more’n 10 feet or so, so I’m stuck with whatever used car I can get a hold of. I really should’ve learned to ride a bike as a kid, but there was no reason to.

Comment #60: Marc  on  07/03  at  11:57 AM

“But then again, GM easily wins the “They labored mightily and produced a mouse” award for meeting the threat of the Toyota and Honda hybrids by producing a hybrid SUV that gets 3mpg more than the non-hybrid version and only costs more than $50,000. “

Two words: Chevrolet Volt. It’s not hybrid vaporware, GM is putting most of their R&D;money towards making that a reality soon…

Comment #61: ferrarimanf355  on  07/03  at  11:59 AM

I think my car has a much smoother ride, although hers does have a bit more power.

Yours handles better. I have driven, in anger, both a Fit and a Yaris each in STS trim (lowered and stiffened suspensions, big sticky tires and intake/exhaust upgrades) and I was significantly faster in the lighter Yaris on an autocross course. The Yaris (my SO’s) actually saw an increase in MPG with the intake and exhaust opened up.

But no, they aren’t sportscars. I am much, much faster in my Miata which is virtually the same weight as the Yaris. The roadster only has (well, had 130k miles ago) 25 or so more ponies than the little Toyota but the far more aggressive gearing, lower center of gravity, 50/50 weight balance and totally superior suspension make a lot of difference. Both in speed and in mileage (I’m very lucky if I get over 25 MPG in the Mazda due to the close-ratio gearbox and 4.30 rear end). And, of course, there’s no way I would have gotten our new TV home the other day in the two-seater droptop.

And for all of you thinking about the wonders of parking a small car, let me tell you it ain’t that great. Sure they’re easy to get in to a spot and are a dream for parallel parking, but in a lot you’re inevitably going to come back to it with a rolling wall parked on either side of you. I park my cars like people used to park trucks when they knew how to drive them and had a lick of common sense and decency; out in the ass end of the lot.

Comment #62: Sarcastro  on  07/03  at  12:10 PM

“Two words: Chevrolet Volt. It’s not hybrid vaporware, GM is putting most of their R&D;money towards making that a reality soon…”

ferrarimanf355, four words:  Too Little.  Too Late.

If GM had really wanted to be in that business, they would already be in it, instead of putting in a token effort and then abandoning the whole thing.

The hybrids being sold now are actually far more complicated than a pure electric car.  And somehow they have the time/money/engineering talent for those, but not for pure electric.

Let’s face reality here.  The whole American car industry has been receiving periodic wake-up calls since the end of WWII.  And every single time the industry hit the snooze button and went back to sleep.

Now that things have gotten so bad that GM is a literal shell of its former self (declining in market value recently to a mere $7 billion), Ford’s right behind, and Chrysler is on life-support, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Upset that Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc., are drinking our milkshake?  Why shouldn’t they - they earned it through hard work and innovation.  Our auto cos. could have stayed viable…but they didn’t want to change their product to meet consumer demands.  They deserve their embarrassing decline into irrelevancy…

Comment #63: MikeEss  on  07/03  at  12:22 PM

ferrarimanf (are you 12 years old?), and it will cost $40,000 - $50,000 to give people the nice, warm fuzzy feeling that “I’m driving an electric car! Look at me!”

The most money you’ll save on a car is the money you don’t spend. If you had that kind of money, you could by a used Honda Civic and pay for the gas with the interest you make on the money left over.

Comment #64: Tyro  on  07/03  at  12:31 PM

“The most money you’ll save on a car is the money you don’t spend.”

Yep.  I’m driving a Toyota PU that’ll be 23-years old in August (that I bought new in 1985).  Gets about 25mpg commuting to work and back.  Would I like something better?  Sure, especially since I live in SoCal and my AC quit.  I’ve been eying the Honda Fit.  Will I buy it?  $14,000 will buy an awful lot of gas, even at $5-gallon.  The economics are there yet…

Comment #65: MikeEss  on  07/03  at  12:41 PM

Great post, Amanda.

What passes for “great mileage” has been a burr under my saddle for a long time now. I saw a television commercial for a car that was bragging about “26 mpg” efficiency!

26 mpg?!?  Since when did that become something to BOAST about?!?  Are American auto manufacturers THAT clueless?!?  Well, probably ... I see slews of commercials for SUVs and light trucks with “great mileage.”  I can’t believe auto makers believe Americans are THAT stupid.  I can only conclude that the auto makers, themselves, are that stupid.

I can’t help but recoil in mild disgust at people who live in worlds of their own creation, in stark opposition to Reality.

Sadly, that leaves those of us looking for real efficiency/downsizing at a loss.

Comment #66: Cathexis  on  07/03  at  01:28 PM

The Smart car still weighs 750 kg—three times as much as a heavy motorbike, six times as much as the light scooters and mopeds that get 70+ mpg (and have a top speed of about 65 mph).

That’s nice, BUT, what should those us us in nasty winter weather climates use the other eight months of the year?

Which is why we see the Smart as a possible motorycycle alternative - it keeps the rain and snow off of you and keeps you warm on days that are too cold to use a motorcycle or a bicycle.  I suspect they are popular in Canada because you can survive hitting ice with a smart, but may not be so lucky on a scooter.

I would much rather have something electric for twitting around the city on non-bike friendly days.  When Zog signed up for the smart slot, it was well before gas prices exploded.  Now it looks like we may have other options and that is a good thing.

Comment #67: Ms Kate  on  07/03  at  01:50 PM

Comparable mileage to the Prius (low-to-mid 40s/gal), but both the exterior and interior styling are quite a bit less wonky-sci-fi and it costs about $3-4k less for equivalent model levels.

And yet I love the wonky sci-fi-ness of the Prius.

If I attempt it, I may try to get fleet pricing through the Auto Club and see if that’s more likely to get me the one I want.

Comment #68: Mnemosyne  on  07/03  at  02:13 PM

i love my scion xA. about the size of a mini-cooper but feels huge inside, very comfortable. and totally decked out it was still cheaper than my honda accord was in 1995. theoretically gets 38mpg. indeed, i can go a week on one 10-gallon tank, working half an hour away. i expect to drive this one into the ground like i did with my honda over 10 years. smile

Comment #69: chi  on  07/03  at  02:15 PM

I’m holding out for the Think Ox
http://www.think.no/think/content/view/full/261

Comment #70: Molly  on  07/03  at  02:31 PM

Just got home from Europe, and they had these cars alllll overrrr in France. I fell in love with them. When you’re getting that many miles to the gallon it’s worth the trade against the rare occasion that you carpool with a giant gas-guzzler.
The only bust is the apparent safety issue.

Comment #71: Angelica  on  07/03  at  02:46 PM

Here in Northwest Pennsyltucky we get snow.  For about six months, many drivers need 4WD or AWD.  But then I travel to snowless places like Tex@ass or Floriduh and nearly every vehicle is a SUV that in other countries are used for commercial purposes.  Most drivers would have far better utility with a hot hatchback or small coupe. 

Methinks it’s the driving version of smoker @ssholery.  You know, when every smoker you meet moves upwind side; irrespective of crowd density, cultural habits, or space.  SUV jerkies need to block your vision and prevent passing to satiate their inner @sshole. 

When I had a small hyper manual-shift, I would fake out these wunderkinds.  Gave me immense pleasure to pass on either side and watch their dismay.

Comment #72: Mold  on  07/03  at  03:04 PM

“But then I travel to snowless places like Tex@ass or Floriduh and nearly every vehicle is a SUV that in other countries are used for commercial purposes.”

In Europe, the SUV as American’s know it is rare.  As is the pickup. 

What you see instead is the Ford Transit and its many clones (virtually every European automaker produces a clone of the Transit).  And boy do you see them.  Scads and scads of them.  Freakin’ everywhere.

For just about any worker who uses their own vehicle in their job (and needs the room), or is supplied one to drive by their job, the Transit-style van is used.  No big V8’s, just real utility all the way…

Comment #73: MikeEss  on  07/03  at  03:35 PM

Cathexis: 26 mpg?!?  Since when did that become something to BOAST about?!?

In recent years, wasn’t there at least one shift in how MPG was calculated?  I’m not sure that number-to-number comparison to past vehicles can be done that straightforwardly.

Comment #74: FlipYrWhig  on  07/03  at  03:38 PM

Totally dead thread, and somewhat off topic, but this bugs me so here goes.

What’s more environmentally friendly: bamboo-paper plates (no deforestation!) or bleached, glazed china ones that last 60, 70 years.  Yup.  Buying too much stuff, especially disposable stuff, is generally a much bigger problem for us than what that stuff is made of.

What’s more environmentally friendly: a 750 square foot apartment with two inhabitants who own 4 plates between them and host an occasional dinner party on eco-friendly post-consumer recycled paper plates, or a 3000 sf house with one inhabitant who owns enough china to feed 15 even though she only uses it twice a year?

If we all had durable and heirloom quality stuff for every conceivable circumstance, we’d all need mcmansions with whole rooms devoted to storage of said goods.  Which is way worse for the environment than buying a few recycled or compostable paper plates every once in a while.

Comment #75: The Opoponax  on  07/03  at  04:28 PM

MikeEss,

Puhleaze. The EV1 was good in theory, but please read this first.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/2006/06/gms-ev1——who-killed-common-sense.html

You didn’t believe the tinfoil hat conspiracy theories in Who Killed The Electric Car, did you?

Comment #76: ferrarimanf355  on  07/03  at  04:54 PM

Ferrariman:

I’m probably going to get crucified for this, but my next car might be a Dodge Challenger R/T.

Pretty small penis, huh?

Those $100+ fill ups are gonna be so great aren’t they?!

And Greenpeace?  Fine organization, but who said anything about freaking Greenpeace?

Welcome to loserdom, although I’m sure you’ve been there for a while.  And yes, the Dodge Charger R/T looks like that thing that dump I took this morning.

Comment #77: jerry 101  on  07/03  at  05:05 PM

“Pretty small penis, huh?”

Nope.

“Those $100+ fill ups are gonna be so great aren’t they?!”

Boy, you must be with the “cars are evil and everyone should be riding bikes” crowd.

“Welcome to loserdom, although I’m sure you’ve been there for a while.  And yes, the Dodge Charger R/T looks like that thing that dump I took this morning. “

First off, it’s the Challenger. The Charger is the sedan. Secondly, it’s my choice to want that car, the same choice everyone here makes when they drive a soulless Prius. The journey should be enjoyable, not a chore.

Comment #78: ferrarimanf355  on  07/03  at  05:19 PM

“You didn’t believe the tinfoil hat conspiracy theories in Who Killed The Electric Car, did you?”

The car did exist, once.  It does not exist any longer.  Those are facts.  I don’t know if it was a conspiracy to kill it, or just good old-fashioned stupid business practices emphasizing short-term profits over long-term viability.

You friend Karl Brauer is bought and paid for by the industry he makes his living from, so consider the source.  A guy who reviewed and discussed horse buggies in 1905 for a living would be pissing all over those new-fangled automobiles for the same reason.

Toyota’s Prius (not a pure electric - hybrids are probably an engineering deadend in the long run), is in its second generation with the third waiting in the wings, and it began development about the same time as the EV1.  Toyota had sold over a half-million Pri-i by November of ‘07.  Honda has done similar with its hybrids.

The main argument against the EV1 is it was unprofitable.  Since Toyota has displaced General Motors as the world’s largest automaker in terms of net worth, revenue, and profits, it would seem that Toyota must know something about consumers and their desires that GM does not.  Again.

So you can stick with the “nobody wants it!”, and “it’s not profitable” whiny-ass-titty-baby excuses if you like, but to anybody who knows the auto business Toyota is on top because it’s smart, and GM is fading fast because it isn’t.

Personally, I think GM was just trying to get California off their back.  They put in a token effort and used the numbers to cow California (and eventually California backed down on the EV mandate).  So the EV1 did what it was supposed to do:  Allow GM to sell more SUVs and full-size pickups.  Mission accomplished.

GM got what it wanted.  But their customers didn’t.  And if that isn’t a stupid business model, then what would be?...

Comment #79: MikeEss  on  07/03  at  05:55 PM

And ferrarimanf355, buy whatever you want.  It’s a (sort of) free country.

There are people in Europe driving huge twin-turbo V12 Mercedes Benzs that get 10MPG, and they pay $7+ per gallon for the privilege.  There aren’t very many of them, but they do exist. 

If you can afford the gas, and the style and image are that important to you, go for it.  Just leave ANWR alone…please…

Comment #80: MikeEss  on  07/03  at  06:00 PM

John, probably back when you were in high school, I got rear-ended by a drunk driver while I was driving a Honda CRX. That cured me of any appreciation for teeny weeny cars.

I do miss the Th!nk cars, though. They looked like giant Fisher-Price cars.

Comment #81: mythago  on  07/03  at  06:15 PM

“Just leave ANWR alone…please…”

Okay. The oil companies have leases to unexplored land, don’t they? Why they aren’t using them, I’ll never understand.

Comment #82: ferrarimanf355  on  07/03  at  06:16 PM

Smartcar.  It’s fugly, it gets crap for gas mileage, and I can’t fit my greyhound in it.  No, thanks, I’ll stick with my Hyundai, which gets comparable gas mileage, isn’t hard to park, and has room for the hound.

I’m holding out for a diesel-powered Mini Cooper myself.

Adorable little car + 65 mpg?  Yes, please!

Ooooo!  I love Minis!  (The greyhound?  I’ll make him fit!)

Okay. The oil companies have leases to unexplored land, don’t they? Why they aren’t using them, I’ll never understand.

Hmmm.  Here’s a novel idea.  How about we quit clinging to a finite fuel source (and propping up Big Oil), and instead move toward making the U.S. the leader in alternative energy?  [sarc]Nah.  That would make too much sense.[sarc]

Comment #83: adobedragon  on  07/03  at  06:37 PM

Okay. The oil companies have leases to unexplored land, don’t they? Why they aren’t using them, I’ll never understand.

Because oil companies profit by making oil supplies scarce.  Sure, they’re going to manage to throttle down demand at the same time, but why should they care as long as the companies (and the CEOs) are making record profits?

All those years that the Big Three automakers thought that the oil companies were their pals?  Turns out not so much once Big Oil got a chance to see how high profits could go after gas prices started going up.

That’s the funny thing about the ANWR controversy—most likely we would give the oil companies the right to go up there and drill, and they would just sit on their asses and do nothing.  Because it’s better to have an asset that might pay off even better someday than to drill, use it up, and have nothing left.

Comment #84: Mnemosyne  on  07/03  at  07:26 PM

We (mrs round guy and myself) realized recently that car makers won’t build something to our tastes because they couldn’t make anything we would buy.  We want incredible mileage (something revolutionary—-75 mpg minimum) and we don’t want to pay for it.

We used to have an ‘86 Honda Civic that we got used for $2,000 that got 50 mpg highway and that spoiled us big time. It just wouldn’t break.

Of course, we don’t really drive much anyway.

<a >Philly Car Share</a> pretty much handles our needs and we get to drive everything from Prius’ to Mini Convertibles to pickups or minivans (should the need every arise). Much cheaper than owning and it keeps a lot of cars off the roads.

Comment #85: round guy  on  07/03  at  07:47 PM

After I first read this post, I commented above, I suppose somewhat in jest, pointing out my favored means of wheeled transportation.  But as the ideas of the post and the comments stewed in my head for the next 12 hours or so, I became disappointed and then, finally, angry.  I honestly don’t think most of you get it. Gleefully imagining ourselves as righteously addressing our potentially apocalyptic fossil fuel situation (global climate change (Midwest floods anyone?), peak oil economics (value of the dollar anyone?), oil wars (Iraq anyone?), food riots (Egypt anyone?) and eventually mass starvation, etc.) by adopting cute little cars, cars that get 50% or even an extraordinary 100% better gas mileage with their oil burning internal combustion engines, into an essentially unchanged garage-centric-McMansion exurban,  bleed the finite resource dry,  to-each-her–own-just-so-long-as-I–get-my-damn-gas-tank-filled cultural vision is sheer blindness.  It is like trying to buy your way out of debt by deciding that from now on when you squander money you’ll use a credit card with lower interest rates.  If you’re dreaming about those cars it’s time to wake up.  You know, for a long time alcoholism had a cachet of being mildly amusing- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foster_Brooks  - but bit-by-bit the amusement has been sapped by a more general understanding of how alcoholism destroys people, families and communities. We don’t have nearly that amount of time to start understanding that amusing ourselves with oiloholism, fantasizing about how happy our next hydrocarbon consuming vehicle will make us, is so much more distasteful, so much more destructive than giggling at a wretch with the DTs ever was.

Comment #86: J@ne Futzinfarb  on  07/03  at  07:50 PM

MsKate, That’s nice, BUT, what should those us us in nasty winter weather climates use the other eight months of the year?

Tyro asked for a car with the characteristics of a small motorcycle, except with a roof and wheels. And I pointed out that the high weight, bad-but-not-abysmal top speed, the safety features and the engine power are the reason why the Smart car isn’t it. Has nothing to do with the climate, really—the basic dimensions are wrong, whether you drive it in Rome or in Helsinki.

Wikipedia says you can get a kit to build your own Isetta in the UK. (And now I want one…)

Comment #87: inge  on  07/03  at  08:20 PM

J@ne, even in europe, where public transportation is widely available and neighborhoods are more walkable, plenty of people keep and maintain cars for some of their transportation needs. This is perfectly normal, and there is nothing wrong with that. It can even be done while consuming an only moderate amount of fuel, which, as time goes on, will come from any number of different sources.

Limiting your transportation options to bicycles and walking does not make you more virtuous. It only makes you that person who is constantly depending on others for a ride.

Comment #88: Tyro  on  07/03  at  08:36 PM

Ferrariman: I’m probably going to get crucified for this, but my next car might be a Dodge Challenger R/T.

If the wikipedia images are anything to go by, that’s a butt-ugly car unless you get one of the first generation. I mean, most new cars are butt-ugly compared to what they once were, but that one takes the cake.

Comment #89: inge  on  07/03  at  08:43 PM

I also looked at the smartcar until i realized the honda fit gave me better mileage, more of a safety margin, and the actual ability to transport more than myself and one load of groceries.  for the same price.  by the same token, the hybrids don’t give enough mileage for the 2x price of the fit/smartcar.

christ.

Comment #90: anon  on  07/03  at  08:43 PM

Tyro, some of that has to do with the built environment.

I live in a classic 1920s Streetcar neighborhood.  We have friends who don’t have a car, and we are “car light”, but most of our neighbors hadn’t seemed to notice that they lived anywhere other than someplace where one had to drive.

Until recently, that is.  Then they started following our tracks and driving less, walking and biking more.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who don’t live in areas that once had few cars and dense development.  There is no tight dense infrastructure for them to suddenly notice, no carfree or car light families in their area to give them ideas and established routes to follow to school and shopping and work. 

If the built environment were modifed for less sprawl, less block zoning, etc. it would be more possible for people to get around.  However, I part ways with J@ne in thinking that it will immediately appear and people will immediately be able to reduce their mileage.  Getting out of this mess will take more shock and quite a bit of time - particularly in New England where the solution to the problems of the single family house on an acre or two acre lot in the suburbs is required by many towns to involve a single family house on an acre or two ...

Comment #91: Ms Kate  on  07/03  at  10:58 PM

“If the wikipedia images are anything to go by, that’s a butt-ugly car unless you get one of the first generation. I mean, most new cars are butt-ugly compared to what they once were, but that one takes the cake. “

At least I can take it on the highway without fear for my life…

Comment #92: ferrarimanf355  on  07/03  at  11:04 PM

Which has to do with what, exactly?

Have you bothered to look into the extensive safety testing for this little hampster ball? Or are you just assuming it is problematic despite being shown not to be.

Comment #93: Ms Kate  on  07/04  at  12:09 AM

Ms. Kate and Tyro

I initially wrote a reply to Tyro that might charitably be described as confrontational.  Fortunately, I didn’t post it.  On reconsideration, looking at your two posts, I think I finally understand something: we all have been sold, have bought in deeply, in ways that most of don’t even recognize, to a set of assumptions, an oil-fueled way of life, that by every measure now has a prognosis of imminent death.  - see, for instance, http://www.oilcrashmovie.com/ -  It was an easy thing to do, the obvious thing to do, it was, probably, in many ways unavoidable.  It was, after all, an enviable life.  Across the span of human history, never have so many enjoyed such an extraordinary quality of life - food, health, shelter, space, recreation, freedom from tedious and grueling manual labor.  And here’s my epiphany - I think we are in different stages of grief - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kübler-Ross_model -  in coming to terms with the end of all this.  I now see the discussion over mini-cars that get 50 or 60 miles to the gallon as primarily engaging in the bargaining stage of grief. From wikipedia:

Bargaining: Example - “Just let me live to see my children graduate.”; “I’ll do anything, can’t you stretch it out? A few more years.”

(although Tyro’s comment about fuel magically appearing from any number of different sources sounds much more like denial).  There’s at least some evidence that the eventual shakeout will be inconceivably terrible - billions (that’s with a b) of deaths by starvation is just one example.  Tyro, my bicycle is not a virtue - it is perhaps a meager atonement for the oil I have used, the oil I still must depend on for my life, a few liters of oil saved that will be used to produce food for a hungry mouth some time in the maybe not so distant future if it doesn’t get poured into the maw of a Hummer for tomorrow’s daily commute.

Comment #94: J@ne Futzinfarb  on  07/04  at  12:27 AM

J@ne, how would you change this immediately?  We have an entire infrastructure designed as car habitat in this country.  All the “bike now” chants are not going to change that half-century of stupid land use right away as you seem to believe. 

People still have to get to work, get kids to school, get food, pay bills etc.  I can do this all by bike with the old Burley baby trailer if need be, because I live somewhere that was not designed around car use as a sole transport means.  Not everybody got inoculated by a scary Gulf War I experience years ago and set up their lives like we did.  Even so, we must deal with car culture dictating that roads get plowed but sidewalks do not, that school is still in session when there is freezing rain that makes walking impossible, etc.

I don’t think you are listening very well here because you are so deeply believing of what you are trying to “teach” all of us.  I don’t see the move to small cars as bargaining or grieving, I see it as the reactions of rational people who are stuck in bad land use nightmares with shitty cars and long distances to get basic needs - people who are simply dealing with the current crisis as best as they can.  Short term solution, perhaps, but you make it sound like they should just give up and quit their jobs and starve their families and abandon their unsustainable houses because oil is involved. This is not realistic.  Change will take much longer than that.  People can’t all move to former streetcar cities either, because those were created when the population was much lower. 

That’s why some people aren’t listening to you. Throw in words like “atonement” and people really are going to tune out.  We don’t need religious shame and guilt here!  We need evolution.  The e-coli mentioned below don’t atone for their former inability to resist disinfectant, they learn new tricks over time.  We will need to do that to - but we can’t willfully do so immediately.

Comment #95: Ms Kate  on  07/04  at  12:51 AM

Inge, BMW did build a small motorcycle with a roof.  It was called the C1, and was marketed in the UK - unsuccessfully, because although it has roll=bars and a seat belt the government required the rider to wear a helmet, which made it virtually unmarketable to car drivers who might otherwise have switched.  You still see them around London, and it’s a shame that they didn’t catch on.  Here’s a pic- http://motorcycles.about.com/od/motorcycleeventgalleries/ig/Euro-Bikes/Commute-Scoot-in-Action.htm

Comment #96: Bloix  on  07/04  at  04:22 AM

Bloix, I can see two C1s when I look out of the window—you are allowed to drive them without a helmet in Germany, and the over-50 crowd can drive them without a motorbike license. They don’t exactly look like something to feel save in bad weather, though. If I have to take a motor on two wheels out in the snow. I’d rather have a Schwalbe scooter than a C1: Less weight and less costly plastic to damage.

Italy has several very cute three-wheeled car/moped hybrid micro(nano?)-vans based on Piaggio scooters, but I do not know if their fuel efficiency is any good.

The Smart car is a shrunken car, probably shrunk as far as possible and still a car by today’s standard. A scooter-car would be a completely different beast. The C1 didn’t have much to offer IMO except “keep your suit tidy”—a useful one would have enough wheels to handle OK in snow, enough space to haul the groceries home, and two or one-and-a-half seats.

At least I can take it on the highway without fear for my life…

You could do that in an Italian sportscar or a vintage car, too, and look a lot better.

Comment #97: inge  on  07/04  at  08:55 AM

Sorry, last line quoted in my previous post was from ferrariman, not Bloix.

Comment #98: inge  on  07/04  at  08:57 AM

FerrariMan, you’re not one of those who takes his Beretta to the grocery store cuz “someone” might git him, are you?

You can conquer your fears of driving with all those scary trucks.

Avoid excessive speed.
Leave adequate stopping distance.
Be aware of your surroundings (esp. aggressive, impaired, distracted drivers).

Comment #99: theDAWG  on  07/04  at  09:11 AM

“I don’t see the move to small cars as bargaining or grieving, I see it as the reactions of rational people who are stuck in bad land use nightmares with shitty cars and long distances to get basic needs - people who are simply dealing with the current crisis as best as they can.  Short term solution, perhaps, but you make it sound like they should just give up and quit their jobs and starve their families and abandon their unsustainable houses because oil is involved. This is not realistic.  Change will take much longer than that.  People can’t all move to former streetcar cities either, because those were created when the population was much lower.”

Ms Kate, correct as usual.

One thing to keep in mind is oil will not stop being available tomorrow.  We are in the end stages of oil use, no doubt.  But the oil cos. are also perfectly aware that we are in the end stages of the resource at the heart of their business.  At current usage rates, there may only be 20-40-years left, but they are going to get every penny before it’s done.

Big Oil (and this includes the producing countries too) has to straddle a fine line between demanding the highest price possible, and setting a price so high that oil alternates become viable enough to be serious competition (which is inevitable at some point, but big oil wants to push that date off as long as possible).

So, even though we’ve pissed away the last 35-years when we knew it wouldn’t last forever but pretended it would - we will have time to make changes before it all comes crashing down.

A place like SoCal has spent the last 80-years developing a “spread-out” lifestyle (during which time the population has exploded (California alone represents over 12% of the population of the US, and SoCal has 2/3 of California’s population).  The fundamental layout of homes and businesses will not (and cannot) significantly change in the next 20-years.  But the land is too valuable to abandon either.  Changes will come, but they will be slow and expensive.  You don’t reorganize trillions of dollars of infrastructure like that overnight.

The California Central Valley, which is one of the most important agricultural areas in the whole US, is laid out almost exclusively with personal transportation in mind, and outside of that, modern agriculture basically requires liquid fuel to power equipment by its very nature.  Places like that will never be compatible with the centralized, high-density, life-style needed to eliminate car-ownership.  So some kind of portable, high-density, fuel source must be developed to support areas like that (and there are many other areas in the US in the same situation).

It took a lot to make this mess, and there will not be one solution that fixes all of it…

Comment #100: MikeEss  on  07/04  at  09:45 AM

theDAWG,

I do all of those safe driving practices, but not having much sheetmetal on that thing is kinda scary to think about. I know that the smart car did well in crash tests, but that psychological brouhaha is too much.

Comment #101: ferrarimanf355  on  07/04  at  11:55 AM

The fundamental layout of homes and businesses will not (and cannot) significantly change in the next 20-years.

On the other hand, sprawl development also goes hand in hand with the uniquely American idea that we should tear everything down every 20 years or so and start over*.  These days, preferably bigger, sprawlier, and stupider, but there’s no reason that cities using that approach couldn’t finally use it to bring in something that incorporates public transit or at least something built on the kind of scale where walking and personal transit is feasible. 

* A good example:  the subdivision I grew up in was developed in the 70’s and 80’s—by the time it had been completely built in, the McMansion craze was starting to hit and there was a mass exodus from the smaller and saner ranch style homes in the older parts of the development.  Now people are only buying those homes in order to demolish them and build a bigger house on the same lot.  Or they were until the last year or so—not sure what’s happening down there now with the end of the real estate boom.

Comment #102: The Opoponax  on  07/04  at  02:05 PM

For those of you (Tyro, Ms Kate, Mike Ess, The Opoponax) who have engaged in a conversation about my comments, I have posted a long (hence, not posted here) reply at my own blog:

http://futzinfarb.blogspot.com/2008/07/oil-bleak-vision.html

Comment #103: J@ne Futzinfarb  on  07/04  at  05:30 PM

J@ne Futzinfarb, I read your post, and you make some good points. 

Here’s a couple things I think many people overlook:

First, Big Oil is arrogant, ruthless, and relentless - but it’s not stupid. 

Many of the economic analyses regarding oil use patterns seem to ignore a basic reality about predictions - if the people who are directly involved with fulfilling the prediction are aware of the existence of the prediction, the certainty of the prediction is no longer what it was.

Big Oil has been aware of the “peak oil” phenomenon for a long time.  While there is 100% certainty that oil production will cease at some point, it is not at all clear that point is now.

Please don’t assume when I say this that I favor drilling ANWR and destroying the coastlines of the US to put off the inevitable.  I’m saying that it is possible to game energy markets (as the California “electricity crisis” and Enron and its fellows proved).

If you knew the thing you sold for a living was finite, and you knew your customer’s demand was not very flexible in the short term, but you also knew that if prices were high enough competition would be created to get a piece of the pie, you’d spend a lot of time and money figuring out how to make the ride last as long as possible.

Big Oil is just maximizing profits while they can.  And having lived through the worst two “gas crunches”, I can say that this isn’t what’s happening.  The fuel is still available, just at a much higher price.

We are in an “end game” scenario, but we aren’t at the end - yet…

The other under-appreciated factor is that there are alternatives that exist now (although not in the needed capacities yet).  They all have drawbacks, many of them large, both economic and environmental.  But they exist.

There’s oil sands, and oil shale, ways to convert coal to liquid fuels.  Biofuels are certainly not a dead end.  There’s solar, wind, tidal, geothermal energy.  If the price of oil is too high, these technologies become viable.  Energy can be converted into multiple forms (with losses of course), so if you have energy available, you can turn it into what you need.

Our dirty (very dirty) friend Big Coal is standing by for its chance.  And as bad as the results will be environmentally, we will probably end up dining more often at Big Coal’s table.  Big Nuke is waiting too.  Those are admittedly not nice thoughts. 

(BTW, I’ve heard Al Gore speak in person, have his book - autographed by him - and believe global warming is real…I’m not just another wingnut koolaid-drinker…)

There probably won’t be a single replacement for oil - its current uses will be replaced by a set of alternative technologies that fit into this niche or that.

I’m pretty cynical and paranoid, but I honestly don’t think things are as bleak as some believe.  It won’t be pretty, it won’t be fun, but here we are.  We have to make the best lemonade we can from the lemons all around us…

Comment #104: MikeEss  on  07/04  at  09:44 PM
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