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Atrios tosses out something of a challenge.
I’ve long been somewhat puzzled by the widespread belief in the inevitability of worldview-affirming apocalyptic scenarios. Obviously you come across everything on the internets, but there are plenty of people across the political spectrum who are quite convinced that [insert apocalyptic scenario here] is inevitable. It’s weird.
My Unified Grand Theory Of Everything (well, only some of everything, but certainly things like this) is that most irrational but passionately held beliefs tend to go straight back to the ego of the people who hold them, and their own internal crisis about identity in the face of certain mortality. I came up with this theory as a long time participant in the existential crisis of political controversies---abortion rights. Why do people say it’s such a difficult subject when, if you look at it logically, it’s quite easy to be pro-choice? Religion causes the same tumult and defensiveness around irrational positions. Abortion (and for the real fanatics, birth control) upends people’s certainty that their existence was inevitable, and that they are Very Special People. It’s not just the idea that you couldn’t be born, but also that procreation (you can live forever!) turns into a fetish. Religion soothes the ego needs to feel Very Special, because god or some force in the universe cares about you.* It often also soothes concerns about your very certain mortality, putting its certainty into question.
I think apocalypse scenarios capture the imagination because they’re a projection of our anxieties about mortality, but they also address our anxieties about not being very important in the scheme of things at all. Considering not just that you’re going to die, but that life will go on without you is humbling---which means, if you’re egotistical, humiliating. Think about it. After enough time passes, even the most famous people are forgotten, except for a few extremely unique ones like Julius Caesar, who probably didn’t even realize at the time that he was creating the sort of fame that outstripped other sorts of fame. How many of you can name all the kings of Europe throughout history? We can name all the Presidents, but that’s because our history is relatively short. Given enough time, you’ll be lucky to be a character in a history book that only a fraction of a percentage of the population will read. The fact is most of us won’t have even that. Your family will grieve you when you die, and their children will know about you, but odds are a few generations down the line, they won’t even remember your name. The impact we have in the world is limited to the length of our lives and a few years after that. Even your genetic heritage divides itself into meaninglessness in a few generations.
Apocalypse scenarios put that fear to rest, especially if the apocalypse comes in your lifetime. Consider that 55% of Americans believe in the Rapture, and then consider that pretty much all portrayals of when this will happen coming from religious leadership---from the Left Behind books to evangelical pews to the Christian Zionist movement---put it sometime next week. Okay, I’m exaggerating, but really, there’s a strong sense amongst believers that this will happen in their lifetime. The fantasy loses all appeal if it doesn’t happen in your lifetime, if you think about it, because the whole point of being Raptured is a) you don’t suffer a bodily death and b) history ends when you do, so you can’t be forgotten. Not all apocalypse fantasies are so simple-minded,** but pretty much all address this core fear that history will go on without you and you’ll be forgotten to the point where it’s like you never lived at all.
But Amanda, you may be saying now, aren’t you one of those wacky environmentalists who thinks global warming is real? Well, yes, because it is, which is sort of the trump card in these discussions. Do I think the future is bleak, especially if we don’t do something to reverse the trend? Yes, I think the cost of human and other lives will be ridiculously high. Do I think it’s the apocalypse? No. I think that people will live on, perhaps in greatly reduced numbers and in depressing circumstances, though I also caution us against thinking that our species is uniquely protected from going extinct.
I do think that there’s a real danger in apocalyptic rhetoric coming from environmentalists on this issue, even if I’ve crossed that line myself in frustration. And it’s because of this theory I’ve outlined above that the apocalypse is a comforting idea. Fundamentalist Christians who believe in the End Times are trying to hustle them in, and if global warming gets stuck in that loop, a lot of people have no reason to lift a finger against it. Telling people what they want to hear---that history is going to end in their lifetimes---is not going to get them moving. I think the more realistic vision that humanity will move on, but we could be looking at a new Dark Age of a sort that’s probably hard to even predict, will be more effective. After all, the last Dark Age was notable in no small part because so much of human history got lost to the annals of time. If you want to retain that slim chance of being remembered after your death, you’ll want to preserve civilization as we know it. Also, the slow decline in standards of living because of the global warming/oil dependency dilemma is already turning its head, and people don’t want to see a continued slide downhill.
Is there a sense that apocalyptic fantasizing is in a big upswing in our society? I say yes. The amazing growth spurt in belief in the End Times in our society is unmistakable, in fact. Why is this? I think it’s a reaction to modernity. The more people move around, the more we move from the extended family model to the individual/nuclear family model, and the less attachment we have to our work because our jobs become more about being specialized cogs in the machine, the more obvious it is that we’re going to be forgotten the second the ground turns cold. Personally, this doesn’t bother me, because all that means is that you’re facing up to the inevitable sooner. Plus, why do I care what goes on after I’m dead, since I won’t be around to see it? But being remembered as some sort of mediator against mortality matters to a lot of people, so the ugly facts laid bare by modernity are getting to people. Thus, you see more cuddling up to the End Times fantasy, the belief that history will end when you do.
*On this subject, on a total aside, I was listening to the Geological Podcast, and the host was interviewing one of those “I’m not religious, I’m spiritual” types that are presumably superior to the merely religious. I was unconvinced of this by the end of the interview. The guy was clearly leaning on the idea that his religious beliefs could be shielded from examination so long as he didn’t commit to any one---religion, crystals, yoga, it’s all the same wouldn’t you know?---and if he claimed even to be past calling the great force in the universe a god or trying to ascribe any motivations or personality to it. But he was just dripping with narcissism throughout the interview. When challenged with hard questions, he retreated behind, “Well, this works for me,” as if that’s an argument for the reality of it. And even though the force/deity has no motivations or personality, he still prayed to it every day to help him out with his finances and relationships and everything else. At least old school religion has an explanation for why you pray and why it would work, for fuck’s sake. Some people would really do better to swallow a big dose of humility. It’s okay to just let go of the idea that life is meaningless without the big ego-soothing super-important drama spirtualism crap. Certainly will make you sound like less of a simp.
**Which is no doubt why they’re less popular. If you’re crafting an irrational belief, say, putting together a religion, it does you well not to overestimate people’s intelligence. The dumber and more wish-fulfilling the better for picking up believers.
Posted by
Amanda Marcotte on 10:13 AM •
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Is there a sense that apocalyptic fantasizing is in a big upswing in our society? I say yes. The amazing growth spurt in belief in the End Times in our society is unmistakable, in fact. Why is this? I think it’s a reaction to modernity.
It’s also the fact that at the turn of every century, you have a couple decades of apocalyptic assumptions. It happened in 1000 and pretty much at the turn of every century since then. Things tend to settle down once you get about a decade into the century and people realize that, no, the world didn’t end in 1804 the way that preacher was saying it would. The Evangelicals started gaining power in England in 1789. It happened in the US during the same time period.
People like nice round numbers like the end of a century.
A book which you might find interesting is When Prophecy Fails, written by psychologists who infiltrated an apocalyptic UFO group back in the 1950s. It goes into a lot of detail on the apparent reasons why people adopt beliefs in this sort of thing in the first place and continue to hold them even when evidence against them mounts up.
I think what underscores Religious ideas of Apocalypse (and especially the current crop of Rapture bullshit) is that the believer will live to see their beliefs confirmed in the most literal and undeniable way possible. Certainly the lynchpin of Rapture believers’ narrative is that either A) they will be sucked up to heaven just before things get real dirty, presumably to have front-row seats to the gore-filled action movie that is their preferred Apocalypse, or if they are not quite that good, they will be “Left Behind” where they will get another chance to get Saved, which is sort of preferable to being Raptured because you don’t have to just stand by and watch the action movie, you get to be the protagonist. With, of course, assurance on both options that the “saved” (i.e. you) will survive, nay, triumph, and the unwashed masses will get their comeuppance. The ultimate “Daddy Loves Me More” scenario. God will actually come down from heaven and say, “Yup, the Holy Rollers were right. Now the rest of you line up for your hellfire and damnation.”
Very little in this world offers such complete confirmation of correct belief, and religious belief tends to offer the least of all because you have to take everything on faith, which is sort of the very definition of religion. Thus, religious people of little faith need to imagine a scenario where God comes down and gives them a cookie. Otherwise, what’s the point?
The funny thing is that I can’t think of very many other religions which have such elaborate Cookie From God beliefs. Cargo cults, maybe? Even radical Islam preaches that you get your cookie in Heaven, after you die, if you’re very, very good.
All the apocalyptic nonsense is what turned me from a seminary student and choir member to, essentially, a non-believer. There are still occasional moments where i backslide into hopeful agnosticism, but between the insanity of a lot of believers and the logical fallacies that so much of religious belief entails, i just don’t have the patience for it anymore.
The hard core Christians have always been convinced that the end of times is near. Even Paul (the one that wrote all those letters in the bible) was convinced. It’s why he advised people to not get married.
Personally I think it happened in 1997. Mother Theresa, Princess Di, and this really cool guy I knew all died that year. That’s it. The rest of us are stuck. 
Oh, and re global warming—most rational people are able to understand that it’s a very complex phenomenon, unspooling in ways that can’t be easily predicted, and probably won’t be perfectly evident in any one person’s lifetime. Or at least not in the same way as Cookie From God religionists like to think that their particular brand of apocalypse will be. You can’t, for instance, extrapolate that record heat waves this year “proves” global warming is true. A big snowstorm in April or 65 degree days in August don’t “prove” that global warming is false.
And even if you look at all the data and analyze all the various complications, environmentalists don’t believe that we’re going to get some sort of confirmation email from nature, in the way that Rapture folk do. We also don’t believe that accepting belief in global warming enables one to avoid the consequences, and only the evil SUV drivers are going to get flooded out.
In fact, we admit that the opposite is true. Poor people who have sustainable (or vastly more sustainable) footprints will be the first to face disaster. The comparatively affluent citizens of the developed world will carry on much longer. And the rich bastards who’ll be able to afford real estate in Denver or Alaska when the shit really hits the fan will come out on top, even though they’re likely the people causing all this.
People generally feel alienated and unhappy with the way their life turned out. An apocalyptic scenario (nuclear war, societal meltdown from Y2K, etc) creates the promise of being able to start all over again on your own terms and the promise of remaking society that isn’t quite so alienating as the one we’re currently living in.
Wow, FANTASTIC post Ms. Marcotte.
Yes, I have been thinking about the significance of apocolyptic beliefs for some time, myself. Although frankly you’re way ahead of me on this. Yes, I think it may have quite a bit to do with people’s egos.
Though, actually, you could perhaps make the case that even the Bible has vague warnings against this apocalyptic type of thinking-- along with reasons to worry. Some where in the Bible, doesn’t it advise Christians not to worry about the second coming, because “Nobody knows the day or hour, and it will come at a time when no-one expects it” or something like that? Obviously, it’s easy to take that statement many different ways.
One other thing I noticed here, you focus on the apocolyptic beliefs of the religious, and a bit about why we more scientific and/or atheistic types should hold ourselves back from using apocalyptic terms. I myself have sometimes noticed that when I talk about US foreign policy, I can get very worried, and believe that World War III is imminent. And then I start to get apocalyptic in my own thought. And yes, I need to guard against that. It gives the neoconservatives too much credit to believe they could start armageddon. It almost dignifies imperialistic wars too much to give them that power. Mostly, they’re just sad, deadly fuckups.
An apocalyptic scenario (nuclear war, societal meltdown from Y2K, etc) creates the promise of being able to start all over again on your own terms and the promise of remaking society that isn’t quite so alienating as the one we’re currently living in.
Though, of course, in any real apocalypse, the people who dream about this crap would probably just end up being killed, or enslaved, or they’d just starve.
There are two other related attitudes, I think, although they are probably just aspects of the ones you describe:
1) “It’s not my fault”. If the world ends in my lifetime, then whatever fuck ups I made during my life are insignificant, and whatever goals I failed to accomplish “don’t really count”. Cause, you know, I was just about to give to the poor/feed the hungry/treat minorities like people/stop being an asshole in general when the world ended. Oh darn! Well, you can only judge my good intentions, because the the world ended, and all…
2) The “Bwahahahaha!” factor. The guys over at SadlyNo.com describe this really well: that a certain group of conservatives don’t want to accomplish anything so much as they want to rub their opponents’ faces in their victory, they want to gloat and strut and shout “In your FACE, LOSER!”. (The Sadlynauts argue that this is why there is no limit to the extremes of their political positions: as soon as “the other team” proposes something, anything, this group adopts the polar opposite stance and then takes three steps back. The “other guys” can’t be allowed to be the least little bit correct or be able to make even one good point in the debate.) And yeah, God smiting all the liberals isn’t just the ultimate confirmation of ideology, it’s the ultimate BWAHAHAHAHA!--a heavenly gloat that goes on for eternity.
I have a great affection for post-apocalyptic books, movies, video games, etc… but I think it’s just my misanthropy talking. The idea of wandering through a depopulated world is really appealing to me on some level. But, um, not so appealing that I’d want to do anything to hasten that scenario, or construct my life or belief systems around it.
Also, I am self-aware enough to realize that I would never survive in the wild, because I work in an office and don’t know how to kill things for food, or shoot a gun, or start a fire in the rain, or… etc.
No bleeding WONDER the Christians can’t wait for the rapture- they’re all gonna be stark buck nekked when they get there!
After a lifetime of sexual repression, they’re more than ready for the heavenly orgy- why ELSE do you think John Ashcroft was anointed head to toe in Crisco cooking oil, first by his dad and later by Clarence Thomas? Slicker is better…
Some where in the Bible, doesn’t it advise Christians not to worry about the second coming, because “Nobody knows the day or hour, and it will come at a time when no-one expects it” or something like that?
Yes, this is why the vast majority of Christian denominations consider the Rapture obsessed freaks to be totally misguided, if not heretics.
Laura, I think there’s a big difference between being entertained by post-apocalyptic and dystopian fiction and actually either believing in or wanting to bring on a literal real life apocalypse. It’s a fascinating idea to think about. What exactly would happen? What would my role in all this be? Would the ultimate outcome be hopeful or would we just go extinct as a species, with nobody left even to lament our passing? What would such a thing even mean? How would the survivors go on? Not to mention that it makes for a wonderful narrative excuse to explore all sorts of exciting conflicts that don’t really occur much in our civilized world as it is today. The social contract torn asunder.
All that narrative potential is as different from real belief in such an idea as science fiction is different from actually believing that the United Federation of Planets exists, or as fantasy is different from actually believing in hobbits or dragons or whatever.
Some where in the Bible, doesn’t it advise Christians not to worry about the second coming, because “Nobody knows the day or hour, and it will come at a time when no-one expects it” or something like that?
Somewhere in the Bible, like oh let’s say in the Book of Matthew (Chapter 6, verses 1-6, if anyone cares), doesn’t it advise Christians not to preen about their piety in public, but to give alms and pray in secret, so that it’s clear they’re not doing it to make a public show of how much “better” they are? Does anybody think they pay attention to THAT particular verse? Bueller? Anybody? (I’m talkin to you, Billy Graham!)
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Laura, I think there’s a big difference between being entertained by post-apocalyptic and dystopian fiction and actually either believing in or wanting to bring on a literal real life apocalypse.
Oh, agreed, definitely. But I do spend some serious time wondering just why it is so entertaining to me, and why I find the idea so appealing. Because there is something really appealing about it. And I suspect that I’m at one (secular) end of the spectrum, and the bring-on-the-rapture folks are at the other.
But I do spend some serious time wondering just why it is so entertaining to me, and why I find the idea so appealing.
Which I explained above. It’s interesting because it opens all kinds of narrative possibilities that aren’t there if you’re talking about life under the social structures we’re all familiar with. And it opens them very dramatically. The question of why we like Children of Men or The Road is the same question as why the ancient Greeks liked the Oresteia, or why the Victorians liked Robinson Crusoe. An apocalypse allows all kinds of crazy shit to happen that could never happen to us in our mundane lives. It’s no more concerning to find yourself taken with apocalyptic fiction than it is to find yourself taken with zombie movies.
except for a few extremely unique ones like Julius Caesar, who probably didn’t even realize at the time that he was creating the sort of fame that outstripped other sorts of fame.
You should read Commentarii de Bello Gallico and Commentarii de Bello Civili. It’s obvious even as he assumes a detached, third person perspective, that Caesar thought he was pretty much the greatest living Roman and possibly one of the top 3 people in history. Realyl, he might as well have subtitled these works “God Damn I’m Awesome.” I’m absolutely certain he was convinced he’d be remembered forever and ever.
“Millions now living will never die.”
Yes, this is the same impulse
Julius Caesar, who probably didn’t even realize at the time that he was creating the sort of fame that outstripped other sorts of fame.
IMHO the Commentarii de Bello Gallico aka The Gallic Wars was written as a campaign leaflet, although as Mencken pointed out, it became a school textbook and now it has passed into obscurity again. He was at the early stage of a bibilo-based society which did offer the possibility of immortality for ones words, limited before to rulers who could have their words carved in stone.
Oh I think Opopo’s got this one nailed. Fundies don’t like science and they don’t like the ‘intelligensia’ b/c they are undereducated. They believe what they want, damn it, and stop trying to ‘prove’ them wrong with facts.
When the Rapture comes, all those faithless scientists are gonna be sorry. What good will their “facts” do them when God just kidnaps all their kids and lets them know they either give up that ‘belief’ in evolution and believe in the nonsense of the Rapture, or they get to FRY BABY FRY!!! All while the faithful, who were so mocked as ignorant, get to laugh from the ringside seats.
It’s just an ultimate revenge fantasy...even if your argument was weak and the opposition had a point, they still get burned and you get honored.
It is SO true! And you’re gonna be so SORRY when it happens, but it’s toooooo late then. HAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha. Neener neener neener
Such a lovely Christian attitude, embodying everything they hold sacred.
An apocalypse allows all kinds of crazy shit to happen that could never happen to us in our mundane lives. It’s no more concerning to find yourself taken with apocalyptic fiction than it is to find yourself taken with zombie movies.
Also, the chances are good that all the people I hated in high school would no longer exist.
On this subject, on a total aside, I was listening to the Geological Podcast, and the host was interviewing one of those “I’m not religious, I’m spiritual” types that are presumably superior to the merely religious. I was unconvinced of this by the end of the interview. The guy was clearly leaning on the idea that his religious beliefs could be shielded from examination so long as he didn’t commit to any one---religion, crystals, yoga, it’s all the same wouldn’t you know?---and if he claimed even to be past calling the great force in the universe a god or trying to ascribe any motivations or personality to it. But he was just dripping with narcissism throughout the interview. When challenged with hard questions, he retreated behind, “Well, this works for me,” as if that’s an argument for the reality of it.
Is there any bit of kink or a particular sexual fantasy that makes you happy? Something that just works for you? Would you want to have to justify it, to prove it has some nominal reality?
Look, I can’t talk about the interview, because I haven’t heard it, and I don’t know how narcissistic this person was. And I certainly don’t know if he was prescriptive ("You should live this way") versus descriptive ("this is how I live, and I enjoy it").
But when your actions affect only yourself (and consenting others), no one should feel entitled to any external justification. I don’t care if the source of your bliss is sexual (and thus, kink or fantasy) or spiritual (and thus religious based), that something works for you, and brings you bliss, is justification enough, and yes, those things should be shielded from examination out of courtesy.
I know- trust me, I know - that religion is being used too often as a weapon right now. I sympathize with people who turn a suspicious eye at it. But you should remember that among those who wear the “religious” label, there’s a whole bunch who wouldn’t even dream of telling other people how to live their lives.
I’m figuring I’ll get a bunch of great stuff when the fundicrats get raptured. I’m already scouting my new Lexus, a nice McMansion, a shopping spree at Saks.
Don’t figure on getting anything from the AmTalibangelicals like Dobson, Robertson or the Cargo Christians like Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn - these thieves will probably be left behind!
Ecclesiastes (one of the more interesting books in the bible) is largely a dissertation on this exact fact of life: in the end our lives are meaningless and and our importance negligible, saying that there is nothing new under the sun, all great people return to the dust from which they came. Really an interesting read. I’m guessing most end time christians don’t read or understand it.
I would also guess that just because this particular narcissistic jackass exists and calls himself “spiritual” doesn’t mean that all such people are necessarily equally obnoxious. Though I have to wonder what place this dude’s religious beliefs have to do with geology. Which is the thing that’s really starting to get to me re the way that religion is suddenly taking over the public dialogue.
I was watching Charlie Rose interview that Virginia governor who is supposedly on Obama’s shortlist (Kane, I think?), and all Rose wanted to talk about was the fact that this guy is apparently a devout Christian. Every. Single. Question. would come back to that, to the point that it was basically Kane repeating the same answer over and over, trying to bring the discussion back to ANYTHING but religion without point blank telling Charlie to STFU.
Your spectacular post, Amanda, made me remember one of my all time favorite openings for Six Feet Under, in which they introduce the stiff of the week to be the clients for the mortuary. It’s one of the funniest gags I’ve ever seen: “Rapture" death.
Abortion (and for the real fanatics, birth control) upends people’s certainty that their existence was inevitable, and that they are Very Special People.
And that’s so silly, too, because there’s already the very real specialness of not being expelled by the body as most fertilizations are. They don’t even know what to appreciate.
except for a few extremely unique ones like Julius Caesar,
*headdesk* *headdesk* *headdesk*
Lookup the goddamned meaning of the goddamned word “unique”, goddamned Marcotte. ARGGHHH!!!!
*pant* *pant* *pant*
What happened? Where am I? And why am I clutching handfuls of hair?
You might be overlooking the solace such scenarios provide to the relatively powerless. The classic Rapture scenario explicitly states that the Believers, beamed up by Scotty The Holy Spirit, will look down and get pleasure from the sufferring of the Unbelievers. Don’t overlook the attraction of such a view to those who feel humiliated and second-class, beaten by them effete intellectual liberals.
Your family will grieve you when you die, and their children will know about you, but odds are a few generations down the line, they won’t even remember your name.
The Dinka of the southern sudan believe that you are living in the world as long as you have offspring in the world. They get one name of their own, but their full name is a listing of their male ancestors. 8 year olds rattle off ten generations of ancestry without blinking an eye.
Largely agree with the post, other than:
Even your genetic heritage divides itself into meaninglessness in a few generations.
Ask someone with cystic fibrosis how meaningless their ancestor’s genetic heritage is. If you mean that genetic heritage isn’t meaningful with respect to individual identity, I suppose that’s probably true to a large extent, but it’s increasingly becoming apparent that epigenetic phenomena that are related to events that occur to us in our lifetimes are hereditary, so in fact one’s genetic heritage may be the only vestige of one’s identity that is left for generations to come.
I’m with Laura - I really love post-apocalyptic sci-fi. It’s fun to play the “What would I do if...” game. Opoponax is right in saying that this particular sub-genre opens up a lot of interesting narratives. But since I really like getting my food from the grocery store and living in my comfy apartment, I’m not thrilled at the idea of a real apocalypse.
Well, yeah, and I’m sure Blaine Walker Hutchinson IV knows there are 3 generations of Blaine Walker Hutchinsons behind him, and that Blaine, Walker, and Hutchinson are all old family names that go all the way back to the Mayflower. But the likelihood that he really knows anything about any of those people, with the exception of maybe his father and grandfather? Not much.
I think tyro and laurab are on to something, with their modified version of what Sontag had to say about science fiction’s obsession with apocalyptic disasters.
Human beings in a stable society are caught up in a web or net of obligations and responsibilities. A massive disruption of that stable society [which one survives, of course] would pretty much release you from the overwhelming majority of your “web”, and would replace it with a new set of possibilities that it’s easy for some people to romanticize. Some school kids who don’t want to do their homework dream of snow storms. Some adults who are sick of their adult responsibilities dream of “The Stand” type plagues that turn North America into their personal storage closet. It’s the same impulse.
People who take it a step further and start actually planning for the apocalypse are just trying to feel effective and in control of some small part of their lives. The people who stockpile a year’s worth of food in their basements take a step back from that work when they’re done and pat themselves on the back. “Look at me! I’m gonna survive The Long Emergency!”
Oh, agreed, definitely. But I do spend some serious time wondering just why it is so entertaining to me, and why I find the idea so appealing. Because there is something really appealing about it. And I suspect that I’m at one (secular) end of the spectrum, and the bring-on-the-rapture folks are at the other.
Stephen King has a great book of essays called Danse Macabre and he talks about how much fun it was to write The Stand, because he basically got to destroy and re-create the whole world to his liking. He could take all of the frustrations of everyday life and do away with them forever.
jesus himself said “there are those of this generation that will not taste death” believing that the end was near and gods kingdom was just a few years away.
of course jesus never really said that, just the author putting words in his mouth like most of the gospels, but the point is that if jesus got it wrong, why do the religious nuts who actually believe that jesus said the things attributed to him think they could do better?
but the reason people are negative is a self-defense mechanism. its just like watching your favorite team and saying, “theyre going to blow it,” just on a grander scale.
humans are gonna blow it…
PITR:
What the hell is wrong with the idea of “a few extremely unique” anythings? Unique is unique, true, and two things that are the same as each other aren’t unique, if you want to be obsessively pedantic (you might want to ice your head, there) - I really wouldn’t have the problem of thinking of three or four out of billions as counting as “unique” for all practical purposes, even if they were identical.
Nevertheless, that’s only if the things or people in question ARE the same as each other. A collection of utterly unlike things, each unique, is a collection of unique things. And don’t even complain about “extremely unique” - because, say (metaphorically, I refuse to try to check) every snowflake is unique, but one shaped like a profile of Alfred Hitchcock would be unique in a highly unusual way, or “extremely unique.”
Just like there are different orders of infinity, there are different kinds of unique. Have a glass of something cool and lie down for a while.
I actually thought The Stand wasn’t that great as far as apocalyptic novels go.
“A book which you might find interesting is When Prophecy Fails, “
I read that.
A not so suprizing conclusion was that the more one had invested in the cult/belief (finacial, emotional) the more one would continue in that belief, even in the face of contrary evidence.
The mothership didn’t come as predicted, eg..... again!
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Great post! Tangentially, I’ve often wondered who would be remembered from the 20th Century in the 30th Century (assuming our civilization remains intact). Einstein and Neil Armstrong seem like likely candidates. I’m not certain Hitler or Stalin will be remembered by the masses. Maybe in some kind of comic-book evil form like most think of Attila the Hun. Otherwise ...
Nevertheless, that’s only if the things or people in question ARE the same as each other. A collection of utterly unlike things, each unique, is a collection of unique things.
Thank you! Shakespeare, Einstein, and Caesar are three unique individuals. As in, none of them is “like” the aggregate of other people. They are also not “like” one another, in particular ways.
Therefore if you had a dinner party for the three of them, you would be holding a dinner party for “a few unique people.”
jesus himself said “there are those of this generation that will not taste death” believing that the end was near and gods kingdom was just a few years away.
A big part of the problem with Christianists and their obsession with apocalypse is that they take their scripture far too literally. There is no reason to read the gospels and think that when Jesus talks about death vs. the kingdom of god that he is using our modern-day understandings of those terms. The fact that most Christians read the gospels in translation is a big clue, as is various levels of historical knowledge about what Jews at the time of Christ believed and what sorts of other religious movements were floating around back then.
Shit, at the end of each yoga class we chant a mantra that, in English, goes something like this: “Lead us from unreal to real / Lead us from darkness to the Light / Lead us from the fear of death to knowledge of Immortality… May the Light of Truth overcome all darkness / Victory to that Light !!!”
I don’t think anybody ever leaves that room believing that Integral Yoga preaches an apocalyptic vision of immortality in the face of Armageddon.
The rapture death from 6 Feet Under was probably taken from News of the Weird. The story itself may or may not have actually happened, but it’s been floating around for years.
And I’ll tell you why PITR is pissed. Carthage was originally a Phoenician colony, and you know what the Romans did to Carthage…
It’s okay to just let go of the idea that life is meaningless without the ... spirtualism [sic] crap.
OK, maybe I’m a simp, but I don’t understand this sentence. Did you really mean to say, “let go of the idea that life is meaningless,” or did you mean to say the exact opposite? Sorry :( ...
I agree with you everywhere else, maybe here, too, if I could just figure out what you meant here ...
I really liked your post. But I disagree about the abortion thing. My opposition to abortion is grounded in the same impulse that makes people oppose eating meat, or wearing animal fur, or experimenting on animals. I think if fetuses weren’t a product of sex or a burden on women’s bodies, most liberals would be more invested in protecting them. In reality, they are a product of sex and a burden on women’s bodies so it’s a shitty dilemma, so that’s a pretty big “if”. And I don’t think my perspective should be forced on others legislatively. But for me it’s not “logically, quite easy to be pro choice” and it’s not because I’m attached to my own existence.
I really am having a hard time swallowing the “55% of Americans believe in the Rapture” thing. It just does not seem plausible that so many people could be so fucking delusional, and yet society does not grind to a complete halt. It just is not possible.
I’ve always had a feeling that it’s not so much that 55% of people actually believe in a literal Rapture in the sense that it’s meant by the Dominionist and Dispensationalist branches of Fundamentalist Christianity, but simply that some asshole marketing drone called in the middle of dinner, they felt compelled to participate, and from there it all depends on the way the question is worded. I can see 55% of respondents saying “yeah, sure, whatever” to certain rather disingenuous formulations of that question. Probably significantly due to the fact that there are tons of (perfectly secular) references to a second coming, apocalypse, end of the world, rapture, etc etc in pop culture, often presented with a certain degree of authority, mainly just because it’s an interesting idea that always manages to be profitable.
I’d also wonder what the regional spread on something like that is. I’d believe that 55% of people in El Paso county, CO, believe in the Rapture, for instance.
I just finished Earth Abides. GREAT post-apocalyptic novel written in 1949. The most interesting thing was that the earth was a character by itself; there were passages that explained what was happening to nature now that Man’s influence was mostly gone. Reminds me that - generally - Mother Nature wins in the end, even if modified by Man’s influence.
People who take it a step further and start actually planning for the apocalypse are just trying to feel effective and in control of some small part of their lives. The people who stockpile a year’s worth of food in their basements take a step back from that work when they’re done and pat themselves on the back. “Look at me! I’m gonna survive The Long Emergency!”
This puzzles me. I mean, a year’s worth of food isn’t gonna go far after the apocolypse, the after-effects of which will certainly last more than a year. Yeah, I have a disaster supply kit with water and canned food and tylenol and bandaids, but I’m planning more for three days of flooding or a blizzard or whatever. Come the apocalypse (global warming, meteor, zombie attack, whatevs), most of us are gonna die. I guess it does all go back to having to feel in control.
I just want to point out, though, that after seeing I Am Legend, I wouldn’t be so sad to find out that Will Smith was the last man on Earth.
I think if fetuses weren’t a product of sex or a burden on women’s bodies, most liberals would be more invested in protecting them.
Liberals are - we prevent unwanted fetuses from coming into existence (and thus being necessarily destroyed) by pushing for contraception education.
You say you wouldn’t push your views on others by legislation and this is good - because legislation doesn’t decrease abortions, it just increases women’s chances of surviving them.
Some where in the Bible, doesn’t it advise Christians not to worry about the second coming, because “Nobody knows the day or hour, and it will come at a time when no-one expects it” or something like that?
Matt. 24:30-44:
“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
The people who stockpile a year’s worth of food in their basements take a step back from that work when they’re done and pat themselves on the back.
Great. I just wasted an entire summer by growing and freezing my own veggies and this past week with making homemade pickles. And I thought I was being thrifty…
Guess HennyPenny was being smug and not just planning for winter, eh?
damndamndamn!
Please add “/snark...”
This is a little less (ok, a LOT less) cerebral than the ongoing conversation, but I’m going to relate it nonetheless.
I grew up in a household headed by a delusional evangelical mother. As a teenager, I was forced to watch the gorier, more horrifying movie-versions of the “end times” than exist today in the “Left Behind” series, always with the constant message that I was going to “Hell” unless I was “saved”.
Those delusions, and the judgments that came with them, have served their purpose, haunting me nearly thirty years later. I have endless nightmares where I know the world is ending and beg for salvation, even though I know in my heart that I don’t truly believe. And just as I’m about to die, I wake up, trembling and waiting for the blinding flash that will signal the demise of everything I know.
People who get off on this kind of shit, and worse, guilt-trip their children with it, are power-grubbing attention-seekers who want the world to know how prophetic and blessed they are by the powers of their beliefs. And for the rest of us who are exposed to it at a vulnerable point in our lives may never be free of the guilt, even as we know we’re right.
I think that people will live on, perhaps in greatly reduced numbers and in depressing circumstances, though I also caution us against thinking that our species is uniquely protected from going extinct.
Personally, between the plethora of apocalypse fantasies and all the other self-gratifying wanktastic bullshit stories we tell ourselves, there are days when I think our species was removed from the evolutionary oven a bit too soon.
I take apocalyptic wishes to be the way seriously extroverted people experience depression. They can’t imagine going anywhere alone.
laurab-
I’d recommend getting a few friends and a bowl of chips together for a nice relaxing evening of Gamma World, Twilight 2000 or some other post-apocalypse role-playing game. It’s a nice way to let your inner Road Warrior out for a spin, combining all the pleasures of hunting for mutants, rats and drinking water with drinking beer with your buds.
I also think there is something to be said about the fact that, at least on a macro level, there is a lot of judgment inherent in historical analysis. It is not always a passive activity where actions are noted and consequences discussed politely. Future historians will assess this period and implicate its populace based on the results of our choices, not the intent or rationale for.
Apocalyptic fantasies not only mean that history ends in our life time, but that we escape the cruel eye of the next generation. Our self-indulgent and ultimately disastrous choices on a whole slew of issues guarantees that we’re probably not going to be looked at favorably unless something major shifts. Having all of those people wiped out in some Jerry Bruckheimer-style apocalypse not only prevents us from being forgotten: it also prevents the living from discussing our multitude of failures.
Is there any bit of kink or a particular sexual fantasy that makes you happy? Something that just works for you? Would you want to have to justify it, to prove it has some nominal reality?
If I had a kink, all I’d have to do to prove its reality is act it out and determine if I came.
But you can act out god day and night and he doesn’t come.
The proof, as it were, is liquid.
BTW, he was openly not trying to tell anyone how to live their lives. He was still deeply egotistical and annoying. If forced to decide, the namby-pamby spirituality talk is better because it’s less political, but still, I like a solid religious person of the pre-crystal era because at least they’re strong minded to really bite into their own bullshit.
Therefore if you had a dinner party for the three of them, you would be holding a dinner party for “a few unique people.”
Indeedy. However, I will mention the teeny tiny, small, miniscule fact that Amanda inserted another word in there. Begins with an “e”, ends with an “xtremely”? Ring any bells?
“Unique” is a binary quality. A person is either unique or they are not. These unique people may be extremely unusual, but they cannot be extremely unique.
my mom got born again when i was in highschool, and while shes not as bad now, shes still a bit obsessed with end times. i like to frustrate her by responding to her rapture talk with “well mom, if the world is going to end, why should i bother getting a job or going to college, i can just go back to bed”
I’m weird in that I find something comforting about not standing out after I die, about sinking into the faceless mass of past humanity. And I’m not going to have children, so in my case it will happen even faster. I also want to be cremated, because I want to cease to exist as much as physically possible after death. No embalming for me.
“the reason we like ‘Children of Men’ or ‘The Road’ is....”
(eyebrows raised) Lack of taste?
Both of those were VERY weak, lame-ass works. I’m w/Bruce Sterling: post-apocalypse tales are for those with no imagination.
I want to cease to exist as much as physically possible after death. No embalming for me.
Well, it does seem sorta depressing to consider your corpse laying in a coffin for whole centuries, not even decomposing fully. A gruesome reminder of what you were, it just lies there and takes up space. It seems more entertaining, somehow, to imagine your flesh’s compounds being released into the air as smoke, or possibly your ashes being spread in a garden, nourishing some plants & becoming part of more life.
Both of those were VERY weak, lame-ass works. I’m w/Bruce Sterling: post-apocalypse tales are for those with no imagination.
This is not the place to engage in a “your favorite genre sucks” pissing match. If you don’t like post-apocalyptic stories or don’t see their appeal, skip the thread.
Apocalypses simplify everything, unless you’ve actually tried living off the land with inappropriate supplies. Anyone else think they might be just another version of the Russkie/Muslim/Atheist Invasion/persecution fantasies that are so popular in another part of the blogosphere?
(I think it was, btw, Spider Robinson’s early venture into post-apocalyptic fiction that first pissed me off about a large part of the genre: it just seemed incredibly effing self-indulgent to destroy civilization and most of the human population so that one guy could have an epiphany and work through his oedipal problems.)
Oh. That person was raptured.
If it weren’t for the coffee cup, I thought it was Teh Mitt himself!
I don’t know that the expectation of an apocalypse – Greek for “unveiling” – is all that unrealistic. If we look at an apocalypse as a catastrophic change that has a serious impact on how people live, not only are we due for one, but our ancestors suffered through several such events in the past.
The one that springs to mind for me is the ‘Black Death’ that, at its height, wiped out half of Europe. Towns would have been depopulated. Law would have fallen by the wayside. Lots of people living then thought it was the end of the world.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/middle_ages/black_impact_01.shtml
Apocalypses simplify everything, unless you’ve actually tried living off the land with inappropriate supplies. Anyone else think they might be just another version of the Russkie/Muslim/Atheist Invasion/persecution fantasies that are so popular in another part of the blogosphere?
“Red Dawn.” Yep.
Good to know I’m no more misanthropic or insane than a bunch of other people out there.
Speaking of apocalypses, the final volume of Y: The Last Man was released last month. I started the series based on your recommendation, Amanda; have you finished it, and if so, what did you think?
Can I get a pan-galactic gargle-blaster with that post? I’m gonna need it. Ashes to ashes, indeed.
The one that springs to mind for me is the ‘Black Death’ that, at its height, wiped out half of Europe. Towns would have been depopulated. Law would have fallen by the wayside. Lots of people living then thought it was the end of the world.
I don’t have the relevant history books handy, and honestly can’t be bothered to filter through Wikipedia after midnight, but I’d put money on the Black Death being the beginning of Western Europeans finding such narratives fascinating. A lot of art of the middle ages and early renaissance references the plague(s). I know that, obviously, apocalyptic literature existed before then (Revelations, obvs), but I don’t know that it appears outside of dreams and visions and mysticism (in Europe at least) until after the Black Death.
I’d also guess that the more recent spate of armageddon obsession has a lot to do with The Bomb.
What I do know a little bit, however, is that one of the first “post-apocalyptic” films, The Seventh Seal, does in fact take place in the immediate aftermath of the Black Plague.
You know what I really wonder, though? The plagues that ripped through the New World in the aftermath of first contact with Europeans—what kind of apocalypse scenarios did they inspire?
I grew up Catholic and had literally never heard of the rapture until my freshman dorm in college. A cute girl tried to explain it to me (I was a 17-year-old male, just being polite to try to get into her pants). She told me that “all airlines always have at least one non-christian on the crew, so they can land the plane in case the rapture happens.”
She was serious. Unfortunately, my gales of derisive laughter pretty much sank my chance of sleeping with her. Then again, knowing she was delusional kinda killed my desire to do so…
The classic Rapture scenario explicitly states that the Believers, beamed up by Scotty The Holy Spirit, will look down and get pleasure from the sufferring of the Unbelievers. Don’t overlook the attraction of such a view to those who feel humiliated and second-class, beaten by them effete intellectual liberals.
Very much so. There are some great observations on eschatology in Neil Gaiman’s Signal To Noise, which I’m trying to remember… One is definitely along the lines of “the privileged feel no need for new beginning, or a righting of wrongs”, and the other is “eschatology offers a view of salvation which is (a) imminent, (b) collective, and (c) miraculous.”
So one would entirely expect an increasing interest in eschatology in a society suffering increasing inequality, where many people feel disempowered. It’s no coincidence that Rome was the main driver of early Christian eschatology - and the US does style itself the new Rome…
“Abortion (and for the real fanatics, birth control) upends people’s certainty that their existence was inevitable, and that they are Very Special People. It’s not just the idea that you couldn’t be born, but also that procreation (you can live forever!) turns into a fetish. Religion soothes the ego needs to feel Very Special, because god or some force in the universe cares about you.* It often also soothes concerns about your very certain mortality, putting its certainty into question.
I think it’s just the opposite. The more people, the less “special” any individual is. If you want to confirm your specialness, let there be fewer “others”, particularly those who look, speak, act and think differently.
I still think the anti-abortion position is about sex - “others” are having it and I don’t like it!
The week that Karen Carpenter died, I was flying somewhere and purchased a copy of ‘The New Yorker’ to read while I was waiting to board. In that issue, there was an article, whose subject I can’t even recall anymore, but one sentence did stick with me (and I am paraphrasing): Over 1 billion humans lived and died before there was language sophisticated enough to provide for naming individuals.
That chilled me because of all the billions of people who have come and gone since man evolved, those who died nameless were truly unable to be remembered.
BTW, one of my favorite novels since junior high days is ‘Alas Babylon’ by Pat Frank. I reread it every couple of years when I ought to be reading the great novels that I put off from decade to decade. I remember shortly after 9/11 sitting in a restaurant in the gay neighborhood in Dallas and hearing someone bring up ‘Alas Babylon’ as that table sat discussing what might happen next.
Also, as an ex-fundy, I remember meeting quite a few fundies in the early 1980’s who, in telling stories about being rebuffed or mocked when they tried to ‘witness’ (harass) co-workers or neighbors, were obviously bitter and really, really looking forward to seeing those who mocked them get what was coming to them when they were Left Behind…
Oh good one, Ms Kate- Mitt the Empty Suit!!
Gold star!!
Sort of…
Heaven ME! godamnit,
Heaven NOW, bastards!
I don’t believe there will be an apocalypse - and I certainly don’t believe in the Rapture.
But damn, I love me a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction!
(Despite some of the folks up thread who feel it is self indulgent. Sure it’s escapist - most fiction is - but an author can explore a lot of themes this way. For example, the building of new types of societies, man’s inhumanity to man and/or nature, the nature of power. It’s certainly not just about one man’s oedipal issues.)
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Is there a sense that apocalyptic fantasizing is in a big upswing in our society? I say yes. The amazing growth spurt in belief in the End Times in our society is unmistakable, in fact. Why is this? I think it’s a reaction to modernity.
It’s also the fact that at the turn of every century, you have a couple decades of apocalyptic assumptions. It happened in 1000 and pretty much at the turn of every century since then. Things tend to settle down once you get about a decade into the century and people realize that, no, the world didn’t end in 1804 the way that preacher was saying it would. The Evangelicals started gaining power in England in 1789. It happened in the US during the same time period.
People like nice round numbers like the end of a century.