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Next entry: People on the public dole living in denial Previous entry: Saints and martyrs

Social justice for wizards

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Alyssa Rosenberg has an interesting post up about how some people refuse to accept that "Harry Potter" has political themes.  There are probably two camps of people who believe this, though it's obviously false (which I'll get into): a) people who just think politics is a nasty sporting event and has no real world implication and b) people who strongly disagree with JK Rowling's point of view and so pretend that she actually agrees with them so they can continue enjoying the books.  Alyssa deals with both groups in her post.  I'll point out that I blogged just the other day about a variation on the second group, situations where people like certain characters in fiction so much they impose their own worldview on them, even when there's textual evidence against them.  I was also dealing with this to a degree in my (what I thought was light-hearted, but man, the angry responses I got) piece on how Harry Potter is more of a jock character than a geek character.  Unfortunately, I got responses from people that liked my post that also missed the point.  They wrote me to say that because Harry wasn't a geek, they disapproved and wouldn't read it.  In general, I find a tendency to treat fiction this way, like it's supposed to be a comforting fantasy of a world full of people that are more like you kicking ass, upsetting.  I prefer fiction to be challenging, and that challenge to include characters that are enticing as characters even if they wouldn't be my best friend in real life.  

Okay, that out of the way, I do want to talk about the political themes in "Harry Potter", though I want to be very clear that because X is a theme in the story in no way means all the good characters agree or even understand with the ideas that the story brings forward.  It's fiction, not a treatise.  Waht makes the political themes poignant is that the characters struggle with political ideals in the same way ordinary people do, without full historical knowledge or really thinking things through or applying political philosophy to current events. The characters may not even grasp that political ideas are political, with the exception of the hyper-aware Hermione.  They just react to them with a bundle of desires, compulsions, fears, and moral bravery, and the politics of their world are very personalized and attached to real, complex people.  It's quite a bit like real life, where the big picture is hard to see. 

After seeing the last movie Saturday, I was impressed by how much the political themes of it really resonated even more with me than when I read the books.  I don't think it's a coincidence that it's because this is post-Obama's election, which has brought forward a surge of nationalistic fervor from people who are insistent on both American exceptionalism and have a very specific idea of what makes America exceptional, and it no more involves electing black Democratic Presidents that the Death Eaters in "Harry Potter" are interested in electing Muggle-borns to head the Ministry of Magic.  The focus is on the personal vendetta-holding and power-mongering of Voldemort, but that Voldemort is an asshole doesn't really explain why he's able to get so much support from the wizarding world. To that, we have to look at the internal politics of their world.  The Death Eaters---and the latest movie does a really good job of conveying this austerely---are fundamentally traditionalists who have no desire to bring the wizarding world into the modern era.  This was obvious enough in the past, but now that we have the Tea Party to compare them to, it almost reads as anvilicious, except that the story predates current events.  The good guys are far more modern, but even within that, they're hardly saints but are often completely complicit in the injustices of their world that allow the views of the traditionalists to have so much sway.  At the end of it all, you are left with the hope that the good guys realize it's not enough to be generally tolerant of the Muggle-born but still living in a society built on unjust labor practices and casual racism towards Muggles. 

That's what I really think raises these books above more pedantic literature.  Rowling doesn't let anything be easy in the wizarding world.  In the first couple of books, you are really right there with Harry thinking that wizards are just a superior group of people to Muggles, though there are hints that their self-imposed segregation that they claim exists to protect Muggles instead serves to keep them from learning and modernizing in ways that would make them a kinder, more evolved people.  Over time, you learn more about how disturbing and often medieval their culture is, and how they don't think twice about barbaric acts.  More disturbingly, you discover that even the more liberal people of their society have massive blind spots, especially with regards to the enslavement of elves, the abuse of goblins, and their own inabilities to really take advantage of all the benefits of modernization.  The way that wizards are actually behind Muggles in certain ways---they don't have TV!---is something that's easy to write off at first, but as the books go on, you realize that the wizarding world is actually very dysfunctional and their sense of superiority to Muggles has basically closed them off to major avenues of innovation that would improve their world. 

And just to complicate it further, our hero Harry is just as guilty as anyone else.  His initial responses to Hermione's complaints about the injustices of their world is to find her either annoying or unpatriotic, even when his conscience tells him that she has a point.  He's too immature to realize that you can both love a culture and be critical of it, and in fact it's often because someone loves a culture that they criticize it.  They believe that this culture has the potential to grow and change and become something better.  (Indeed, Hermione grows up to be a bureaucratic activist who fights to make the wizarding world a better place.)  It's a lesson that obviously misses a lot of adults in America, from conservatives who conflate loving America with refusing to see, much less correct, injustice.  But sadly, I've definitely seen leftists who let their criticisms of America cause them to be reflectively anti-American.  It's rare, of course---we're definitely more Hermione-mature on average than conservatives---but I definitely saw, for instance, a couple of people on Twitter say that they were going to root against the U.S. team in the World Cup just because it's the U.S.  They're ridiculously naive, of course, starting with the notion that other countries ther reflexively support against us are such great places.  I'm far more Team Hermione: we should love our country, and because we love it, we should fight for it to be better. 

This aspect of the books really came out well in the latest movie.  The scene where you see the tortured, miserable dragon in Gringotts was deeply moving, and a scene in the movie that pretty much every person I've talked about the movie with has mentioned.  The ugly fact of the matter is both the bad guy and the good guys in the wizarding world looked the other way as the goblins tortured this dragon for the financial benefit of wizards.  It's Hermione's talent at imagining a better world that saves them; she sees the dragon as a creature who longs to be free, and this gives her the inspiration to find a way out of the bank.  It was a neat little encapsulation of some of the larger themes of the book.  In "Harry Potter", it's not enough to be against the bad guys.  The characters cannot excel until they stop being blind to all the ways they also benefit from injustice, and instead make the brave choice to be better than that. 

Which is, incidentally, why I think a lot of feminists see feminist themes where I didn't really see any.  The justice theme underpins the entire series, and the fact that it's not grappled with on gender in much depth is a disappointment.  I have my own theories as to why that is, but that would require another post entirely. 

I will say I have one small criticism of Alyssa's post.  She relies heavily on Rowling's real life activism and views when it comes to extrapolating the themes in "Harry Potter".  I'm uncomfortable doing that.  Often writers use political ideas they don't agree with as themes because they work with the story.  Joss Whedon is an atheist and a liberal, but "Buffy" and "Firefly" have religious and libertarian ideologies as themes, because within the work, those ideas are more evocative.  I still like both works a lot, and again, I maintain that ideological tests of art are just a bad idea. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 04:05 PM • (115) Comments

I still like both works a lot, and again, I maintain that ideological tests of art are just a bad idea.

I agree, both with that and with the idea that ideological engagement with art is a really good idea. Which is why I like these posts, even when they are about works I don’t know.

Comment #1: LC  on  07/18  at  05:35 PM

These kinds of posts.

Stupid end of work day. :(

Comment #2: LC  on  07/18  at  05:36 PM

“I’m far more Team Hermione: we should love our country, and because we love it, we should fight for it to be better.”  Exactly.  Also, SPEW is a great acronym. 

And it’s worth pointing out that Hermione is an outsider, even more so than Harry, because her parents are Muggles—she’s not part of any dynastic or other tradition within the wizarding world, so she doesn’t have the same investment in maintaining the status quo.  She sees what others don’t, both because she’s very intelligent and sensitive and also because she’s got an outsider’s perspective.  Even the good wizards who grew up in the wizarding world are slow to recognize injustice or take any action to remedy it, not only because it’s part of the world in which they grew up but also because they benefit from it.

Comment #3: Kit-Kat  on  07/18  at  05:39 PM

their self-imposed segregation that they claim exists to protect Muggles

One really picky thing: is this from the movies?  Because in the books, unless I’m remembering incorrectly, Hagrid tells Harry that they don’t tell muggles about the wizarding world because “they’d always want us to be solving their problems,” which I always found morally problematic (so we’re assuming that “we” and “they” are separate groups?  we think it’s morally acceptable to force muggles to wear casts for weeks when wizards have the ability to heal broken arms in 24 hours, just because wizards don’t want to be bothered?) and well as problematic in a world-building, how-precisely-does-that-work sense (all the muggle-born wizards such as Hermione—they never tell their parents?  Well, we know that’s not true, because Petunia and her parents knew all about Lily’s magic powers.  So the parents…they never mention it to anybody?  Ever?  None of them?  And what about those muggle-born wizards?  They’re OK with just cutting off contact with all the people they knew before age 11?).

It’s an issue that, as I recall, is never really addressed in the books.  No character, good or bad, makes a gesture toward suggesting that the two worlds be integrated.

Comment #4: EG01  on  07/18  at  05:49 PM

Tangentially, I always liked how Rowling gradually digs under the surface of the Dursleys, and explores their viewpoint, along with the real reason Harry was left with them.

Comment #5: phantom power  on  07/18  at  05:55 PM

And for that matter, I liked how Harry’s father is revealed as being a bully toward Snape, which eventually makes his own son Harry’s life harder than it needed to be.  As you say nothing is simple in those books.

Comment #6: phantom power  on  07/18  at  05:59 PM

“The justice theme underpins the entire series, and the fact that it’s not grappled with on gender in much depth is a disappointment.  I have my own theories as to why that is, but that would require another post entirely. “

Please do, when you have time.

“Joss Whedon is an atheist and a liberal, but “Buffy” and “Firefly” have religious and libertarian ideologies as themes”

Again, I’d love to read a new post or two on Buffy.  Great fodder for feminist analysis.

Buster

Comment #7: Buster707  on  07/18  at  06:06 PM

Joss Whedon is an atheist and a liberal, but “Buffy” and “Firefly” have religious and libertarian ideologies as themes, because within the work, those ideas are more evocative.

That’s what I liked about ST:DS9 when they introduced the Prophets of Bajor as the “Wormhole Aliens” who don’t have a sense of linear time, which of course, would also be true if they were TEH GODZ living in Eternity.

Comment #8: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/18  at  06:07 PM

Oh, I don’t know, I think that lets Snape off the hook far too cheaply.  What kind of alleged grown-up takes out a twenty-year-old grudge, however well-justified (and this one was pretty damn well justified), on a child who had nothing to do with it?  I remember some real jerks in my high school, people who were awful to me.  I’m quite sure that should one of their kids ever turn up in a class I was teaching that I would refrain from being a petty, spiteful bully to him/her.

Comment #9: EG01  on  07/18  at  06:08 PM

Harry Potter is also a tremendously nationalistic and Christian film. It retells the Arthurian legend character for character (and how much more British can you get?) and specifically casts “Prussian” and “French” public schools in an unfavorable light compared to Hogwarts.

It is a positive and inclusive vision of future England, but none the less it promotes a very, very specifically Anglo set of values and behavior as the basis for that future.

Comment #10: jfwlucy  on  07/18  at  06:11 PM

I think Snape was more mad at Harry for living when Lily died but it was easier for him to say it was because Harry’s father was a dick.

Comment #11: Tersa  on  07/18  at  06:15 PM

I also ran across a Christian blog that was saying that Harry was a Jesus figure because he died and came back. And it went on to describe other things but I stopped reading it because in my head i was going “NOOOOooooo… keep the bible out of my Harry Potter.” I guess I can understand group 2.

Comment #12: Tersa  on  07/18  at  06:20 PM

EG01 @9:  Oh, I agree completely, but then again Snape is fabulously complicated himself.  Actually, I think he has something in common with the Dursleys:  he resents how much he is asked to sacrifice in the chess-game that Dumbledore is playing to protect Harry.

That fact in no way makes either Snape, or the Dursleys, likeable, but it does make it possible to empathize with them in certain ways grin

Comment #13: phantom power  on  07/18  at  06:25 PM

Harry Potter is basically an avid, passionate defense of the status quo. It’s for people who think they’re awesome and liberal because they’re against genocide and find slavery a bit problematic. Rowling’s personal politics probably don’t match this, but all she really wanted was to sell her books to as many people as possible, which she succeeded marvelously at.

Comment #14: junk science  on  07/18  at  06:27 PM

Also, I (sadly) don’t find it at all hard to believe that Snape would carry his resentment of James on to Harry.  This unpleasant aspect of human nature is why we have multi-generational feuds.

Comment #15: phantom power  on  07/18  at  06:29 PM

Well said, Amanda.  Diversity and respect for difference is so obviously a theme of these books.  I think privilege is also a theme.  Wizards generally feel superior to muggles and other magical beings, even though muggle technology would have solved a few problems that came up in the books.  (Google “horcrux”, y’know?) 

I don’t agree that Harry feels that wizards are superior to muggles, just that they’re where he fits in.  I agree that he’s more of a jock than a geek, but the comments on your previous post pointing out that this is an American dichotomy and not a British one made sense to me.

Nor do I agree that he thinks Hermione is annoying for wanting to free the house elves-after all, he freed one the first chance he got.  He has a few other things on his mind in book 4, though.  Perhaps you might say that Harry has little time for social justice because he’s busy fighting Ultimate Evil.

Also, in the book, it’s Harry who has the idea to use the dragon to escape Gringotts, not Hermione. 

Comment #16: mischiefmanager  on  07/18  at  06:32 PM

Perhaps you might say that Harry has little time for social justice because he’s busy fighting Ultimate Evil.

I might say such a thing if I managed to forget that Harry happily owns his very own slave at the end of the last book. Except I wouldn’t ever say such a thing, because it’s nonsensical. Fighting evil doesn’t mean killing the boogeyman.

Comment #17: junk science  on  07/18  at  06:51 PM

In the first couple of books, you are really right there with Harry thinking that wizards are just a superior group of people to Muggles, though there are hints that their self-imposed segregation that they claim exists to protect Muggles instead serves to keep them from learning and modernizing in ways that would make them a kinder, more evolved people.

This is just spot on. You really get the feeling from the results of Mr. Weasley’s experiments with muggle technology that “protecting them” is just as much if not more about “protecting us.” I can understand why a magical being wouldn’t want the complications that come from having that kind of
birthright edge know to everyone (mostly from the many, many other fantasy/scifi books, comics, etc. that really go into the subject in a way Rowling didn’t.) But technology is pushing past the magical world in ways the wizards are having a hard time understanding. They emphasis this in the films by giving everything magical a sort of handcraft aesthetic that dates it to the early 19th century at best; there is nothing that looks like it was touched by the loving, metallic claws of mass-production. The wizarding world ignored muggle advancement for so long that it’s now a rival culture that they can’t really understand and fear as a result.
I love the theory that the big reasons they needed to destroy Voldemort wasn’t because he was evil and going to conquer the world, but because he would out magic to society at large which, after the initial shock from those first attacks, would respond by completely destroying the wizarding world.

Comment #18: scrumby  on  07/18  at  07:03 PM

@Junk Science So Harry should have freed Creecher(sp?) so he could go straight to the death eaters and get them all killed?

Comment #19: Tersa  on  07/18  at  07:03 PM

Sorry if this is spoilerific, but it shouldn’t be…

Snape’s grudge isn’t against Harry but against his situation. He was used, Harry was used, and everyone was used by Albus against Voldemort in a battle they could only play a small part in. Being a cog in a wheel is what made Snape angry and resentful. The rest was his acceptance of that role. He knew not only that he hated his part, he also knew he was willing to do his part even though he hated it. That’s what makes him heroic, but also… kind of just another player in what Dumbledore set up.

The fact that Snape wasn’t nice was that he had a job to do that required that he not be nice. He had to hide from the strongest wizards of his day and do so in plain sight. And he was lying to the homicidal one with the homicidal friends. I think that could make anyone a bit agitated.

Comment #20: 3letterjon  on  07/18  at  07:04 PM

Even the best of wizards seems to have no problem with memory charms, literally erasing the memories of muggles.

Tersa @12, hey, it beats them saying it’s all Satanic because tehre are witches and wizards and magic in it. I know people who solidly believe HP is a gateway to Wicca. I tend to laugh at them. “A wizarding school where the suits of armor sing ‘O Come All Ye Faithful’ is a gateway to goddess-worship? Do you even hear yourself?”

Phantom Power @15, I agree. The wizard world is very small. Anyone whose lived in a small town knows grudges get carried over many generations, until no one remembers why our family doesn’t speak to theirs.

There are politics, and lots of them. I really hated Dumbledore by the end (having gone through all of this with Obi-Wan already: using the child to atone for his own mistakes), and found the end of the books most unsatisfying. Haven’t seen the last movie.

Comment #21: Angelia Sparrow  on  07/18  at  07:04 PM

@Junk Science So Harry should have freed Creecher(sp?) so he could go straight to the death eaters and get them all killed?

After he’s killed Voldemort, when he’s no longer in danger from the Death Eaters, his first thought is to have Kreacher bring him a sandwich. That really says it all.

Comment #22: junk science  on  07/18  at  07:08 PM

The problem I have with so many fantasy series is the Damn Prophecy Problem. It sets up a world where the books aren’t about what will happen but only how. Whether it’s the Wheel of Time or the Belgariad or the Lord of the Rings, there’s this fatalism that pervades the whole thing. Yes, it can be done well, but so often it’s just the same thing over and over again. Yeah, yeah: Hero’s Journey and all that, but I prefer to have nothing certain. Chosen Ones are boring, while people like Snape can be the really interesting characters even within such stories.

Steven Erickson’s Malazan Books of the Dead and Glen Cook’s stuff is fantasy with all sorts of angry gods and unhappy mortals battling it out, and even the prophecies and readings just assign tasks, not fates. And that makes all the difference. I can read about someone with a crappy job to do, but tell me he’s the Chosen One and you’ve got yourself a boring book in your hands.

Or a crappy prequel series to some movies that started coming out thirty years ago.

Comment #23: 3letterjon  on  07/18  at  07:13 PM

@junk science I forgot about that part.

Comment #24: Tersa  on  07/18  at  07:23 PM

Phantom Power @15:

Another part of the reason for multigenerational feuds is that it’s so easy to see the parents in the children. Especially as Harry is developing into the effortless jock a la The Natural, and flexing his muscles in so many other ways, it’s easy to see what Snape would resent and want to head off. (And there’s the other part: when you know someone is destined for great things, it’s pretty much a standard trope to be particularly hard on them so that they’ll rise to the top of their game rather than coasting.)

Comment #25: paul  on  07/18  at  07:49 PM

“Buffy” and “Firefly” have religious and libertarian ideologies as themes,

This is correct of course, Firefly’s libertarianism is explicit. I always like to argue that it’s a particularly left wing flavor libertarianism though. When the movie came out, a lot of people thought the “well intentioned government turning people into monsters” theme was an anti-New Deal/Great Society kind of thing. Personally I saw it as much more anti-militarist/imperialist. But I guess we see what we want to see…

Comment #26: typist  on  07/18  at  07:55 PM

Oh, Amanda. I really, really wish you could learn to put spoilers under the cut.

It’s not difficult. I assume it’s technically within your capacity.

So what is it that leads you to Just Not Bother?

Comment #27: Jesurgislac  on  07/18  at  07:57 PM

“Whether it’s the Wheel of Time or the Belgariad or the Lord of the Rings, there’s this fatalism that pervades the whole thing.”

I don’t remember a whole lot of prophecy in the Lord of the Rings.  There were a few “only you can do this” moments, but it was of the “nobody else can do this” variety instead of the “you will do this” sort.  Failure was an option.

Comment #28: preying mantis  on  07/18  at  08:04 PM

@Junk Science: Remember when Harry gave Kreacher the locket?  Would that not mean that Harry freed Kreacher, since he gave him a wearable item?  In any case, they had certainly reached a state of mutual respect.  Maybe Kreacher chose to stay in his employ.  And the fact that Ron thinks of the Hogwarts house elves shows that the lesson has come home to someone who strongly resisted it.

You’re not going to convince those of us who love these books to hate them because they lack 100% internal consistency.  Do you have the same problem with the Holmes canon?

Comment #29: mischiefmanager  on  07/18  at  08:10 PM

Would that not mean that Harry freed Kreacher, since he gave him a wearable item?

Not according to anything Rowling wrote. Either she didn’t intend that or just never thought of it, and there’s no reason to assume it aside from pure fanwanking.

I really couldn’t care less if you like the books or not. I’m not required to agree with you or pretend there’s nothing wrong with them.

Comment #30: junk science  on  07/18  at  08:14 PM

Oh, Amanda. I really, really wish you could learn to put spoilers under the cut.
It’s not difficult. I assume it’s technically within your capacity. So what is it that leads you to Just Not Bother?

So…in talking about the movie of a well-known, well-publicized novel published 4 years ago and discussed endlessly since then, you don’t want spoilers?

Rosebud was a sled! Vader is Luke’s father! Palpatine is Sidious! The shark dies! Richard Dreyfuss flies off with the aliens! Bruce Willis is dead! Samuel L Jackson is the supervillain! Michael Corleone kills the other bosses! She’s really a man!

There. Saved you goodness how many hours worth of pointless movie watching.

Comment #31: KeithM  on  07/18  at  08:17 PM

Kudos to Ms Marcotte (and to Ms Rosenberg) for picking up this very pertinent topic. It’s always seemed to me that the Potter books offer very limited opportunity for progressive lessons because the good things about the wizard world (as well as the bad ones) are all basically medieval - not only are the improvements that a Hermione can make to this world going to be limited and mostly done on a personal level, but there is no way for the stories to really grapple with many modern issues. The fact that Hogwarts is basically a re-imagined English Public School makes me doubly uneasy. Those places carry an enormous weight of historical baggage for their role in the English class system and imperial system going back several hundred years. Rowling’s inclusion of girls and children of various ethnicities into the Potter books (and the fact that the remaining Public Schools today are far less influential, and more culturally progressive, than they once were) doesn’t really erase that legacy, which I think most readers of this site would agree is fairly negative. This aspect seems to have been overlooked in most of the American commentary on the books and movies, and I’d be interested to know how it’s perceived in the UK.

For anyone who is interested, I recommend reading Orwell’s remarkable and subtly subversive essay about his school-days, ‘Such, Such Were the Joys.’

Comment #32: jbhertzberg  on  07/18  at  08:23 PM

I love the theory that the big reasons they needed to destroy Voldemort wasn’t because he was evil and going to conquer the world, but because he would out magic to society at large which, after the initial shock from those first attacks, would respond by completely destroying the wizarding world.

Although if Harry lost, the subsequent novels describing said war might be funny: Corporal Harrison and the L115A3 Long-Range Rifle (in which a Death Eater discovers that the Killing Curse doesn’t work when interrupted by a .338 Lapua Magnum fired from 2000 meters away), Flight Lieutenant MacTavish and the GBU-39 (in which a group of Death Eaters discover that the killing curse doesn’t work when interrupted by a precision smartbomb dropped 60 miles away, and of course HMS Vanguard and the Trident Missile (which pretty much wraps the whole thing up).

Comment #33: KeithM  on  07/18  at  08:34 PM

EG01, I recall from other books the explanation, a more serious one, being that Muggles couldn’t cope with wizards and so wizards hid…..for their own good.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/18  at  08:58 PM

Jer, because I really enjoy hearing people whine that I spoiled a book that’s been out for four fucking years.

The time for whining is passed.  Spoiler alerts are a courtesy extended to people making a good faith effort to catch up at a reasonable pace.  Four years is not reasonable.

By the way, Rosebud is a sleigh.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/18  at  09:10 PM

Although if Harry lost, the subsequent novels describing said war might be funny: Corporal Harrison and the L115A3 Long-Range Rifle (in which a Death Eater discovers that the Killing Curse doesn’t work when interrupted by a .338 Lapua Magnum fired from 2000 meters away), Flight Lieutenant MacTavish and the GBU-39 (in which a group of Death Eaters discover that the killing curse doesn’t work when interrupted by a precision smartbomb dropped 60 miles away, and of course HMS Vanguard and the Trident Missile (which pretty much wraps the whole thing up).

Or you might get this.

Comment #36: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/18  at  09:43 PM

I don’t remember a whole lot of prophecy in the Lord of the Rings…Failure was an option.

Hell, failure happened when Frodo was corrupted at the end.  The Ring was only ended up in the fires because Gollum’s greed overrode his self-preservation.

Comment #37: schism  on  07/18  at  09:49 PM

The house elves bothered me too as far as the social justice theory goes.  They were just so grovelingly happy in their servitude.  Having a race that’s born to be super happy washing dishes for the cool wizards is wish fulfillment for a pretty horrible wish.  It’s the desire to have slaves but still get to be a good person because you know you’d be such a nice master and they’re natural servants anyway.

Comment #38: Nimravid  on  07/18  at  10:04 PM

Oh my heavens. I couldn’t respond to the last thread because I didn’t have my login on my travel computer so I’m glad to have another crack at this.

On the topic of the separation of Wizarding Society: it was a conscientious decision on the part of the Wizarding World to recede from human society, they even passed a law to keep themselves hidden. There were a number of reasons for this, including the muggle history of persecuting wizards (to the point where they were harming each other in an attempt to destroy witches and wizards), and also (if you read Beedle the Bard) that Muggles will abuse the magical powers of wizards for stupid shit. Wizards are encouraged to secretly help Muggles in actual need (“The Wizard and the Hopping Pot”) but also beware of Muggles who wish to harness magic for frivolous or dangerous purposes (“Babbity Rabbity and the Cackling Stump”). Ultimately, the idea was more to place Harry Potter in a historical context similar to Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, where wizardry had a rich history in Europe but then “vanished”—it doesn’t mean that there isn’t such a thing as magic, there’s just a reason we don’t see it around anymore. The idea was more Narrative than Political (which, I believe, is the point of Amanda’s thesis statement).

On the topic of Kreacher: Our first interaction with house elves is Dobby—a put-upon house elf who wants desperately to be free. So that is our first impression, we view the “enslavement” of house elves through that very particular lens of that first impression. But Hermione learns the hard way that Dobby is an odd duck—and even after he leaves he turns right back around and is hired to work at Hogwarts because he is ultimately called to serve. The rest of the house elves are portrayed as being content in their tasks, that they take their highest pleasure from serving wizards and go so far as to refuse to clean the Gryffindor common room when Hermione begins leaving clothing hidden under piles of garbage in order to trick them into freeing themselves. They make Dobby do it. Obviously, this is intended to mimic the old fairytale The Shoemaker and the Elves where the elves sneak in and help the shoemaker out of the goodness of their heart but disappear forever the moment he tries to compensate them. And when Winky is hired to Hogwarts after being sacked by Barty Crouch, she’s inconsolable and spends most of her time passed out drunk in front of the hearth because she misses her family so much. Kreacher is initially compelled against his will to serve Harry, but once Harry acknowledges Kreacher’s feelings, Kreacher bonds to Harry and delights in caring for him, and when Grimmault Place is discovered, Harry immediately laments the pain Kreacher will go through. If you were going to make a statement about house elves, you would be better to compare them to the stay at home moms: sure, a few of them yearn for “liberation” but a lot of them also seem to really dig their servile role and would be horrified if you took that away from them, no matter how degrading you think changing diapers and cleaning up spit-up is.

On the topic of Snape: Again, very complex. It’s not JUST that Harry’s dad was a dick, or that Dumbledore made Snape a cog in a very brutal, complex machine against Voldie. Snape’s memories and everything that drives him is not just his love of Lily, but also his guilt—they never reconciled after he slipped up and called her a mudblood. He knows that if it weren’t for James (which Harry looks like—good reminder every day), that a) He wouldn’t have had the falling-out with Lily, b) Lily might have learned to love him, c) Lily wouldn’t have had Harry and wouldn’t have been marked for death by Voldie. Hell, he might not have even felt that romantically toward Lily, he just hated that James came between them at all when she was his only friend in the world. I mean, there’s a lot going on there. And then he has to keep his shit together because if he starts to crack up, his cover’s blown.

Comment #39: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/18  at  10:15 PM

Chances are a lot of you have seen this by now, but there’s an interesting piece on the unrecognised Calvinist theology underlying a lot of Rowling’s work that may be of interest. It provides at least one explanation for why the social politics of the series is so hit-and-miss.

Comment #40: Finnegan  on  07/18  at  10:18 PM

(Damn, forgot the actual link.)

http://www.ferretbrain.com/articles/article-161.html

Comment #41: Finnegan  on  07/18  at  10:18 PM

people who just think politics is a nasty sporting event and has no real world implication

Slightly off topic, but I would love to read more about how to talk to these people, or any ideas as to why they think they way they do. All of the people I know who feel this way are women, and I think it can partially explain why single women vote less than other groups.

Comment #42: MissCherryPi  on  07/18  at  10:32 PM

If you were going to make a statement about house elves, you would be better to compare them to the stay at home moms: sure, a few of them yearn for “liberation” but a lot of them also seem to really dig their servile role and would be horrified if you took that away from them, no matter how degrading you think changing diapers and cleaning up spit-up is.

Yes, I think that’s exactly what bothered me.  It’s like saying women are born to be stay at home mommies and even the ones that think they are yearning to be free really would be heartbroken if they were.  Or really it felt like a statement that everyone is born into their class, and that’s right and natural and where they belong.

Comment #43: Nimravid  on  07/18  at  10:56 PM

james joyce, when asked what “Ulysses” meant, he supposedly responded “nothing, i just wrote it for the money.” this, about a tome having far more weight than anything ms. rowling has or ever will write. in fairness to ms. rowling, while she no doubt enjoys her characters and their adventures, i’ve never heard tell of her claiming the “Harry Potter” series to be anything but a (hopefully) good read.

the point is, all literature (and any plays/movies made from it) has some political strain running through it, unless it’s authored by robots. whether intentional or not, the author implants a political point of view, and the reader interprets it in their own fashion. sci-fi is probably the most overt political genre: see: foundation trilogy.

nothing really new under the sun here.

in the interest of full disclosure, i’ve neither read any of the potter books, or seen any of the movies, this is strictly a general commentary.

Comment #44: cpinva  on  07/18  at  11:24 PM

Little known fact: No one has ever actually read Ulysses.

Comment #45: typist  on  07/18  at  11:41 PM

I’m kidding of course. I read Portrait of an Artist As a Young Man. Pretty good but no Order of the Phoenix…

Comment #46: typist  on  07/18  at  11:46 PM

sci-fi is probably the most overt political genre: see: foundation trilogy.

Someone who has yet to discover the joys of The Sword of Truth series…

Comment #47: scrumby  on  07/18  at  11:55 PM

james joyce, when asked what “Ulysses” meant, he supposedly responded “nothing, i just wrote it for the money.” this, about a tome having far more weight than anything ms. rowling has or ever will write. in fairness to ms. rowling, while she no doubt enjoys her characters and their adventures, i’ve never heard tell of her claiming the “Harry Potter” series to be anything but a (hopefully) good read.

I don’t mean to pick on you, but you presented something I see regularly which irritates me beyond belief: Dismissals of popular art as somehow less worthy than an arbitrary canon of “the great.”

I have also not read Harry Potter. I cannot speak to it’s value, artistic or otherwise. But it is no less “weighty” than any other book or series of books. Whatever we wish to discuss, we can. There are always layers to peel from any work. Always insight to be gained. It being popular, genre, “for children,” or “for money” means little.

If we want to insist Harry Potter is better, more complex, and has more meaning, we cannot make that call without reading it. And even if Finnigans Wake or Cold Comfort Farm or whatever we insist on reading is actually, truly, better, with more layers and depth and meaning, that’s fine, but dismissing something as “light” without giving it a weigh is a petty snobbishness that I feel my seasoned, worked out snobbishness is insulted by.

It’s the same reasoning that insists TV shows, or Video Games, or whatever can’t be “art.” or is a lower form, somehow.

Comment #48: karpad  on  07/18  at  11:57 PM

I rooted for Japan’s team because they need some good news (plus, underdogs!).

But then, I really don’t care about sports and wouldn’t have known who was even playing if it weren’t for the sports nuts around me. And certainly don’t equate sporting events with love of country. I think that’s actually a problem in our political system…everything is win or lose and teams are diametrically opposed instead of working together to make it all better. Our political parties have turned into sports teams, more or less.

Comment #49: Jodi  on  07/19  at  12:26 AM

It being popular, genre, “for children,” or “for money” means little.

Famously, Dickens wrote “for the money” as well.

And, of course, his writing got stolen and published in the US with not a sausage going to Dickens himself.  Annoyed him no end until he figured out how to capitalise on the exposure.

The argument that no-one could claim ownership of ideas and that America couldn’t afford to and shouldn’t have to send out scarce foreign capital to authors in rich Britain seems vaguely familiar…

Comment #50: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/19  at  12:36 AM

It is a positive and inclusive vision of future England, but none the less it promotes a very, very specifically Anglo set of values and behavior as the basis for that future.

Well, my problem with it is that it’s not actually that inclusive.  There’s apparently only one school for wizards in England, and it’s rather expensive.  Everyone from it goes on to get jobs in, essentially, bureaucratic middle management.  So where do the working-class wizard kids go?  What about Rosmerta, the barmaid in Hogsmeade, or Ernie, who drives the Knight Bus, both of whom, as far as I can recall, have working-class accents?  Where did they go to school? It’s a world that’s happy to include the odd nonwhite kid—and credit where credit is due, Rowling does pretty well with not being all “Dean Thomas WHO IS BLACK,” but working race and ethnic signifiers in more subtly—but has no interest whatsoever in anybody who falls below a certain class stratum.  Except for Hagrid, sort of.

Also, I (sadly) don’t find it at all hard to believe that Snape would carry his resentment of James on to Harry.

I suppose you’re right.  But that’s why I just can’t work up any sympathy for Snape after the age of 16 or so.  Go to therapy like everybody else!  (That’s also my feeling about Batman, though, so I’m probably not representative).

Wizards generally feel superior to muggles and other magical beings, even though muggle technology would have solved a few problems that came up in the books.  (Google “horcrux”, y’know?)

I think you may be giving Rowling a bit too much credit with this observation.  I suspect that the absence of googling has more to do with the fact that the first book came out in…1997, was it?...before the internet had really hit the mainstream than anything else, and that if the kids had been running around googling, things that had taken 300 pages to figure out would have been reduced to 10.  I’m more inclined to attribute it to authorial laziness, really, especially since so many of the books are so poorly plotted to begin with.

I agree that he’s more of a jock than a geek, but the comments on your previous post pointing out that this is an American dichotomy and not a British one made sense to me.

Is it really, though?  I just find it hard to believe that the culture that produced Spaced, The IT Crowd, and the character of Oliver on the final season of Coupling doesn’t have a sense of the geek as a social outcast loser.

EG01, I recall from other books the explanation, a more serious one, being that Muggles couldn’t cope with wizards and so wizards hid…..for their own good.

I guess so, Amanda.  I just find it unsatisfying and unbelievable.  Like, dudes, you’re the ones with magic powers.  You can’t find a way to reach a point of mutual assured destruction with regular people?  Can’t you invent some spell that turns firearms to gummy bears or something?  Rains of fire out of the sky onto muggle strongholds?  You’re hiding?

And I still do have the plausability/world-building issues with it, but I think that goes along with Rowling not coming up with particularly good plots.  I don’t think she always thinks things through.  I guess if I were assured of millions of dollars every time I turned a manuscript in, I wouldn’t necessarily give every plot point a thorough going-over, either.

The idea was more Narrative than Political (which, I believe, is the point of Amanda’s thesis statement).

Yeah, I get that.  I just don’t think it was very well done.  Even if something is just a narrative device, it has to make a certain amount of sense, in my opinion.

Comment #51: EG01  on  07/19  at  12:39 AM

i’ve never heard tell of her claiming the “Harry Potter” series to be anything but a (hopefully) good read.

Besides the fact that you’re factually wrong (Rowling has made plenty of statements about Lupin as a metaphor for AIDs and shit like that), it’s actually completely irrelevant. But your next paragraph already delves into why, so I’m even more confused as to what your point is. “The author didn’t willfully intend this” simply isn’t an argument against the existence of themes or undertones that may be present in a novel.

Comment #52: Triplanetary  on  07/19  at  01:04 AM

I guess so, Amanda.  I just find it unsatisfying and unbelievable.  Like, dudes, you’re the ones with magic powers.  You can’t find a way to reach a point of mutual assured destruction with regular people?  Can’t you invent some spell that turns firearms to gummy bears or something?  Rains of fire out of the sky onto muggle strongholds?  You’re hiding?

I like how avoiding mutually assured destruction turns into finding way to combat modern weaponry or destroy the enemy more effectively. Do you not read fantasy very much or are you just determined that this right here is the issue that undermines all of the Harry Potterverse?

Comment #53: scrumby  on  07/19  at  01:44 AM

Hmm.  My problem with Harry Potter (at least the movie versions) is that, actually, compared to other YA-directed fantasy fiction, the magical world is a little bit too wish-fulfillment-ish.  Magic is something you use to give you more fun candy-toys, a substitute for the mundane technological physics-constrained world. 

Consider Garth Nix’s “Old Kingdom” trilogy (which, incidentally, does much better on central female characters).  The protagonists’ main magical ability is to “walk in Death”, a capability that leaves them vulnerable in Life as they enter a primordial world symbolized by an eternal river and a set of magical one-way gates.  Their most powerful spell is to ring a bell they all must carry that will kill them and everyone around them if they ever ring it…which one of them does, at one point.  The magical universe is not ad hoc the way it seems to be in the Harry Potter fantasies; there is wish-fulfillment in the Old Kingdom, it just comes with certain physical constraints and limits.

Or Susan Cooper’s classic “Dark is Rising”.  Magic there is connected to the folklore and habits of the indigenous people of the British Isles very directly.  There’s no conjuring.  The magic comes from the life of the people and their ancestors.

But all of this genre of fantasy, HP or otherwise, contains one fatal flaw: they all posit a genetic elite.

Comment #54: Mandos  on  07/19  at  02:06 AM

Why the hostility? 

I read quite a lot of fantasy.  You might say I specialize in it.  And I don’t quite understand your first sentence.  Avoiding mutually assured destruction doesn’t turn into combatting modern weaponry or destroying the enemy in my formulation—it turns into hiding, which is what I find unconvincing.  It’s as if a bunch of people with machine guns decided that the best way to protect themselves from a bunch of people with swords was to hide from them. 

As for undermining all of the Harry Potterverse, I’m also not sure what you mean.  It’s a plot/world-building hole that irritates me.  If it doesn’t irritate you, that’s nice.  There are lots of things about the way Rowling has constructed her world that don’t make sense, in my opinion.  This is one of them.  Rest assured that life will go on in its normal way despite my mentioning it.

Comment #55: EG01  on  07/19  at  02:14 AM

EG01: If you read a lot of fantasy, you might have occasionally encountered the trope where the magical world must hide not because it lacks power, but because the collective wrath of the human race is a magically countervailing force. 

The Dresden Files series by Jim Butcher is an example of this: the predatory magical world can normally only use subtle means to manipulate a humanity on which it preys, because of the countervailing psychic energy of Peasants With Pitchforks.

The Laundry Files series by Charles Stross (Lovecraftian computer-nerd spy fantasy) has a further twist on this; the awareness of humanity on its own brings the tentacular horrors out of the mathematical deeps.  Stross calls this “CASE NIGHTMARE GREEN.”

Comment #56: Mandos  on  07/19  at  02:21 AM

If you read a lot of fantasy, you might have occasionally encountered the trope where the magical world must hide not because it lacks power, but because the collective wrath of the human race is a magically countervailing force.

Sure, but nowhere does Rowling suggest that that’s the case in her world.  If you’re going to use a trope, you do still have to do the work of mentioning it and making it seem believable.  (Obviously, for a given value of “have to” that includes “can still get published very successfully and earn a lot of money even if you don’t.”)  Otherwise it’s just fan retconning, which I enjoy doing as much as the next person, but that doesn’t make it canon.

Comment #57: EG01  on  07/19  at  02:38 AM

And, now that I think about it, we know that it actually isn’t the case in Rowling’s world, because at the beginning of one of the books, can’t remember which one, Harry is writing an essay about witch-burning for history of magic in which he notes that real witches and wizards were never harmed by being burned because of their magic powers, referencing one particular example of a witch/wizard (can’t remember which one now) who had her/himself burned several times because she/he enjoyed the tickling feeling.  So clearly muggle animus does nothing to thwart wizard magic.

Comment #58: EG01  on  07/19  at  03:03 AM

Because modern weaponry hasn’t evolved beyond the stake.

Comment #59: scrumby  on  07/19  at  03:08 AM

You know, scrumby, at first I thought you were talking about Buffy, and the way that no vampire except Darla ever seemed to consider going after her with guns or a hand grenade or something, and I was going to agree that that was a good point.  Then I realized that wasn’t the context.

The idea Mandos was suggesting was that, as in certain other fantasy novels, collective non-magic-user wrath, such as, for example, that seen during the witch crazes, could negate the powers of the magic users.  The example I gave in #58 demonstrates that such is not the case in Rowling’s world.

If your concern is for the welfare of wizards in the face of modern weaponry should muggles en masse become aware of them, I refer you again to my “metal into gummi bears” suggestion, perhaps combined with impenetrable forcefields such as the bubble-head charm but extended over the body that can repel bullets, (or, better, perhaps, use the bubble-head charm and then eliminate all the oxygen from a given area, sort of like a magical version of nerve gas) and something to deal with nuclear bombs…turning them all into ice cream cones, perhaps. 

Hmm.  I must be craving sweets.

Since Rowling never gestured toward any limit on wizarding powers in her world, besides those of conscience, and there’s no reason to think that wizards, as a class, are more likely to have consciences than muggles, there’s really no limit to the violence they could perpetrate.  The mind boggles.

Comment #60: EG01  on  07/19  at  03:19 AM

And that’s what probably bugs me about your point. I do think it’s weak world-building on Rowling’s part not to include some sort of non-arbitrary limit or measure on magic, but the actual power vs. power is only one part of the comparison.  I think there is a subtle resistance and fear of muggle tech in wizarding society that could easily explain a psychological desire to avoid conflict. For all their smug superiority the witches and wizards are surprisingly ignorant of the muggle world they live next to and trade members with. They have intentionally withdrawn themselves so far away from their neighbors that they’re faced with the threat of the unknown. One side is convinced of their inevitable superiority and wants to rule the world and the other side is starting to realize that they’ve fucked up big time by turning their back on a large,  advancing society and believes the best way to survive is to remain quite and intermarry/die out.

Comment #61: scrumby  on  07/19  at  03:51 AM

i, As regards “wizards vs modern weapons”, I refer you to the wonderful GURPS spell “Reverse Missiles” which, um, reverses missiles.  Works well on arrows - but it does work on other missiles, such as bullets.  It does have limitations (like reasonably short duration), but if you are surrounded by a police SWAT team, you cast this spell, and then you start standing around in the open wildly firing a gun in all directions, you might eliminate all of them through bouncing bullets.

ii, The original Mage (the Ascension) had a very good reason for magic-users remaining “hidden” - muggles determined consensus reality, which enforced itself on wizards using blatant magic where said muggles could see it.  With hobnailed boots.

Comment #62: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/19  at  03:59 AM

I didn’t like the last movie very much (aside from the hilarious camp factor of Voldemort, and Neville’s awesomeness), but it was generally because I had been reading the last half of Deathly Hallows in the bath before I went to see it, and was excited to see a lot of things that they ended up cutting from the movie or completely changing. Also I really wanted a long flashback scene about young Dumbledore and Grindelwald when they got to Aberforth’s house, but no dice. So I focused more on what wasn’t in the film than what was (for example, instead of enjoying the powerful scene with the dragon I was too busy being annoyed that they cut Griphook’s conversation with HHR about how all wizards were the same and didn’t care about goblin welfare, when the former accomplished essentially the same thing regarding wizard mistreatment of other magical beings). From the reactions of others it seems it was handled in a way that most people would be satisfied with, even if it didn’t live up to my personal expectations.

I think that even if Hermione didn’t love the wizarding world, she would fight to improve it, simply because her only other options are becoming a recluse in muggle society or shutting up about the injustices of the wizarding world, both of which do nothing to improve the situation of herself or her family. While she obviously shows some selfless sense of political responsibility, as shown with SPEW, she’s also an example of the fact that some people are just born into circumstances that make fighting for reform the only option for them and their own wellbeing, whether they like it or not.

Comment #63: Treefinger  on  07/19  at  04:00 AM

I guess that’s possible.  I just don’t see much evidence for such a psychological dynamic in the texts.  It kind of leaves aside the issue of the level of technology that had been achieved when the separation was made.  Since that’s never firmly established, I guess we could handwave it.  But the problem is that we know it must have happened prior to, oh, say the nineteenth century, or surely somebody in England would have noticed a bunch of wizards/witches and written it down in a way that would’ve survived beyond all those scam artist spiritualists that were running around Victorian England.  And if it happened then…why do it?  Muggle technological advancement was really that intimidating on the weapons frontier at that point. 

The whole thing is kind of problematic, because for it to really work, the wizards would have had to have withdrawn back in the Middle Ages, because they don’t seem to have guns, and because if they hadn’t, it doesn’t make any sense that they wouldn’t have just incorporated magic advancements into the shared pre-withdrawal world.  But in many ways, they’re very modern; they do basically have all the things we have, it’s just that they run them by magic rather than electricity or gas.  Mrs. Weasley still cooks on a stove—it’s just that the soup or whatever it is comes out of the tip of a wand rather than a can.  They don’t have TV, but I actually think that’s more a symptom of the fact that they don’t seem to have art or cultural productions at all (nobody ever picks up or mentions a work of fiction; there’re no school theatrical productions; there seems to be only one band that everybody listens to; there are paintings but there don’t seem to be any painters; it’s kind of weird) than it is about technology.  So it seems like they must have withdrawn before the industrial revolution, or why wouldn’t they just have taken the lead with their own magic-based advancements, but if they did, then why is their world so similar to ours, but if they didn’t, then why don’t we have any records of them, but if they did, why did they withdraw in the first place, given that we wouldn’t have had the technology to pose any kind of threat whatsoever. 

That’s why I think it’s more likely to be just poorly thought out than a complex psychological issue.  The books do seem to me in many ways to have, as Mandos puts it, a rather ad hoc quality to them. 

But YMMV, and obviously does.

Comment #64: EG01  on  07/19  at  04:09 AM

Muggle technological advancement was really that intimidating on the weapons frontier at that point.

Argh.  Was not, I meant.

Comment #65: EG01  on  07/19  at  04:12 AM

“I really enjoy hearing people whine that I spoiled a book that’s been out for four fucking years. “

And that would make sense if you were reviewing the book, but you’re not: you’re reviewing the movie. Which came out this past weekend. The movie is not the book. The book is not the movie.

Comment #66: Jesurgislac  on  07/19  at  05:25 AM

And the significant differences in plot between the book and the movie are?

Comment #67: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/19  at  08:53 AM

The problem I’ve always had with politics in the Harry Potter books is far more personal and simple.

Harry is extremely wealthy—in the first book, we are told just what a small fortune he has at Gringott’s.

His best friend, Ron Weasley, comes from a family which doesn’t have very much money, in part because the father works for the government for fairly low pay, his mom is a housewife, and there are lots of kids.

We’re forever being told that Ron has old books, an extremely old familiar (who eventually turns out to be Peter Pettigrew, transfigured, but still a hand-me-down), handmade hand-me-down clothes because they can’t afford store-bought, etc..  At one point in the fourth book, poor Ron is wearing a formal outfit that by all description, probably belonged to his grandfather and is somewhat ridiculous.

If you were in Harry’s shoes, wouldn’t you do *something* to help your friend a bit, even if he doesn’t know about it?  Give some money to Dumbledore, maybe, for a “scholarship” that would buy Ron his books?  Take the Weasleys out to dinner once in a while?  We never see any sign of it.  More than anything else about the character of Harry, this bothers me.  For an author who self-identifies as a socialist, her main character doesn’t show any concept of charity for a family which really goes out of their way to make him a family member, but is just on the verge of genuine poverty. 

Comment #68: lionel  on  07/19  at  09:02 AM

And that would make sense if you were reviewing the book, but you’re not: you’re reviewing the movie. Which came out this past weekend. The movie is not the book. The book is not the movie.

In terms of plot spoilers, that’s not the case. You know Harry Potter movies are not going to become the Roland Joffe-directed “Scarlett Letter” and have Harry fly to the moon while saving Wampanoag Indians.

Comment #69: witless chum  on  07/19  at  09:06 AM

She’s not reviewing the movie either, you dolt. She’s reviewing the series in light of the fact that the last movie came out.

Yes, I think that’s exactly what bothered me.  It’s like saying women are born to be stay at home mommies and even the ones that think they are yearning to be free really would be heartbroken if they were.  Or really it felt like a statement that everyone is born into their class, and that’s right and natural and where they belong.

I get that, I mean, Rowling is not really straying from the idea of moms as the stay-at-home variety. Hermione’s mom is presumably a dentist (since she says her “parents” are dentists, and not her father), and Tonks is killed.

But Dobby was not heartbroken to be freed—he was elated. He kept the sock that freed him as a point of pride.

Look, Stay At Home Moms are as alien to me as house elves are, and yet if I told a Stay At Home Mom that she should demand compensation for her work, that I will do everything I can to Free Her From Her Enslavement, I’m betting I wouldn’t get too far and that she would pretty quickly learn to cross the street when she saw me walking toward her. Even if their husband is a tyrant and their kids are wretched little shits, most of them will declare that they’re exactly where they want to be and that their love is unconditional.

Rowling was writing these books for kids, and maybe, the point she was making was about how you should treat those who love you unconditionally and care for you. Dobby desperately wants out of Malfoy Manor because he’s being abused and couldn’t be happier to leave it. Kreacher is bound to Harry at first by duty (as in, once you have the kid, you’re pretty much stuck with taking care of it). But when Harry acknowledges Kreacher’s feelings and treats him well, Kreacher turns into SuperMom (that first time your kid says “I love you mommy” must be a pretty vindicating feeling for a woman feeling burned out on domestic crap). The whole point of the series wasn’t that house elves just want to take care of wizards, it’s that wizards should respect house elves and give them the credit they deserve for what they do. Kreacher wouldn’t have led the house-elf charge if Harry hadn’t listened to him and given him the locket.

Comment #70: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/19  at  09:08 AM

If you were in Harry’s shoes, wouldn’t you do *something* to help your friend a bit, even if he doesn’t know about it?  Give some money to Dumbledore, maybe, for a “scholarship” that would buy Ron his books?  Take the Weasleys out to dinner once in a while?  We never see any sign of it.  More than anything else about the character of Harry, this bothers me.  For an author who self-identifies as a socialist, her main character doesn’t show any concept of charity for a family which really goes out of their way to make him a family member, but is just on the verge of genuine poverty.

Yeah, but mostly when rich kids and poor kids are friends they mostly try to ignore it and never talk about the fact. In my experience, anyway. And I’m pretty sure the Weasleys would not allow Harry to take them out to dinner and him offering would be embarrassing for all around. They are British people, after all.

Comment #71: witless chum  on  07/19  at  09:09 AM

witless chum has it—there are some instances where younger Harry attempts to pitch in a bit and Ron is embarrassed to the point of anger.

Comment #72: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/19  at  09:16 AM

If you were in Harry’s shoes, wouldn’t you do *something* to help your friend a bit, even if he doesn’t know about it?  We never see any sign of it.

I believe he did treat Ron once or twice but witless chum is right, the Weasleys would not have accepted a lot from him. He did give his prize money from the TriWizard Cup to Fred and George so they could open a joke shop.

Comment #73: MissCherryPi  on  07/19  at  09:26 AM

re: spoilers, I think it makes sense to stay roughly away from editorials and reviews of things you are trying not to have spoiled. What I think is pretty shitty is spoiling things intentionally, however “old,” when doing so is irrelevant to the topic being discussed. I’ve seen the stupid “HAHAHAHA IT’S A SLEIGH” thing multiple times and you know what? Yeah, I haven’t seen every old-ass movie that I want to eventually get around to seeing. I watch these things when I get time to, and I enjoy doing that. I don’t go crazy over staying ignorant of the relevant plot points but if I come across something like an editorial discussion about the thematic implications of the word “rosebud” in film history, or a review of a movie I would like to see someday, I’ll skip reading it. And if I for some reason read a review of Citizen Kane I wouldn’t really complain about spoilers, because: duh. But when I’m reading a review of Harry Potter and someone spoils Citizen Kane just to prove that they can and that it’s funny or something, it strikes me as a pretty suck move.

Comment #74: amplify  on  07/19  at  10:24 AM

You know Harry Potter movies are not going to become the Roland Joffe-directed “Scarlett Letter” and have Harry fly to the moon while saving Wampanoag Indians.

Though that would be cool.

Comment #75: EG01  on  07/19  at  10:51 AM

Oh my god. The joke with posting “LOL ROSEBUD” is that it’s from a work over 50 years old! Which, incidentally, was spoiled for me by a Charlie Brown comic when I was a child, *ahem coughcough* years ago.

Comment #76: Yawgmoth  on  07/19  at  10:54 AM

OK, in any case, what on earth was spoiled in this essay?  You’d have to be pretty dense not to know that Harry, Hermione, and Ron not only survive but win and prosper, and Voldemort loses, so I’m not counting that.  There’s a scene with a dragon in the basement of Gringotts that Hermione frees, which is some way relevant to the plot.  That’s all I can find.  Even if this essay appeared the day after the final book was published, I just don’t see any spoilers (OK, Hermione grows up to be a bureaucrat.  But so does everyone else in the book who finishes Hogwarts.).

I think that not being spoiled for things like Citizen Kane and Soylent Green would require a massive cultural quarantine, because classics become cultural touchstones, and expecting people not to refer casually to cultural touchstones because not everybody has seen them yet seems unreasonable to me.

Comment #77: EG01  on  07/19  at  10:56 AM

Oh, Yawgmoth, me too!

Comment #78: EG01  on  07/19  at  10:57 AM

I can’t find now the post to which I’m responding, but I was under the impression that all British children who were magical went to Hogwarts, even those who went on to work in Hogsmeade, Diagon Alley, or similar places.  It wasn’t just a subset of the population.  You’re magical, you turn eleven, you get a letter inviting you to Hogwarts, and that’s that.

Comment #79: Karla  on  07/19  at  11:14 AM

Oh, I’ve found it—@EG01 , #51.

Comment #80: Karla  on  07/19  at  11:15 AM

Maybe it’s just me - I’m not super-young, but I’m definitely sort-of young. I have always know OF Citizen Kane and I’m pretty culturallly aware, but I honestly had no idea that Rosebud was a sleigh until the article (in NY Times I think?) about spoilers that explicitly said as much, with the usual ha-ha tone. I didn’t cry or anything but like I said, it strikes me as a suck move. Mostly because there is really kind of nothing to be gained by it, I guess? If it were relevant to the discussion and the factoid got dropped in the course of someone else comparing what we were talking about to Citizen Kane, with reference to Rosebud, I would just consider that par for the cultural course, but the context of intentionally revealing plot points unnecessarily just to laugh at people who are pretty mellow but all other things being equal would rather not have known seems…discourteous. I guess.

Comment #81: amplify  on  07/19  at  11:24 AM

Karla, but then, how does Ernie from the Knight Bus’s family pay for Hogwarts? That’s specifically a concern for Harry before Hagrid tells him that hey, no worries, your parents left you all this magic money, so don’t sweat it.  And why do none of the kids we know of in Hogwarts go onto working-class jobs?  And none of them (again, Hagrid being an exception) seem to have working-class accents.  Rowling is drawing on a very particular kind of boarding-school narrative that is about the schools attended by upper- and middle-class kids (traditionally boys, but obviously that’s different now).  I don’t see anything in the books to indicate that working-class kids go to Hogwarts.

Comment #82: EG01  on  07/19  at  12:04 PM

I can’t find now the post to which I’m responding, but I was under the impression that all British children who were magical went to Hogwarts, even those who went on to work in Hogsmeade, Diagon Alley, or similar places.  It wasn’t just a subset of the population.  You’re magical, you turn eleven, you get a letter inviting you to Hogwarts, and that’s that.

That’s what I recall as well.

In defense of Rowling’s world building, I don’t know where people are getting the impression that everyone at Hogwarts ends up with government jobs at the ministry of magic. There are hundreds of students, and our heroes really only interact with a few of them. Even of those, you’ve got, at minimum, the Potter twins who open a shop in Diagon Alley. Probably some others I can’t recall. I think there’s also some discussion about how Ministry jobs require high OWL scores, maybe passing a civil service exam, etc. Obviously not everyone is going to make it, even if Harry and his immediate circle are on that track.

And while the Ministry is probably a major employer - what with having the staff necessary to police the muggle/magic separation, among other things - it’s clear it’s not the only thing going on in the magic world. There are shops, trades, newspapers, modes of transport, adventurers and explorers, etc. And presumably more going on than it was strictly necessary to mention in the course of Harry Potter’s story (e.g., there are paintings, so there are probably painters, or the magical equivalent. And builders, playwrights, etc.)

Not so in defense of Rowling, none of this is really very well developed or defined. I think it’s clear that a lot of it is just ad hoc thrown in by analogy to the real world. So, she needs characters to buy magic school supplies / have an introduction to the hidden magic society next door? Well, obviously there’s a hidden street in London full of magical commerce. Harry needs some late night transportation? Well, there’s a magical bus, which obviously has a driver.

The extent or implications of this are not really at all clear. Is Diagon Alley the only place with magic shops? Or is it just a particularly exclusive commercial district? Either one is plausible - maybe there are other wand shops, other branches of Gringotts, etc. in, say, Liverpool or Glasgow (or in magical villages, like Godric’s Hollow). But then, maybe there aren’t. Why bother if everyone can teleport anywhere instantly via flue or disapparation?

(And that kind of question has profound implications for the size of magical Britain. If you analogize to “muggle” commerce, my impression is that Diagon Alley might only be big enough for maybe a few tens of thousands of magical citizens. That also seems to jibe well enough with all children funneled through the one school - the population of magical Britain really can’t be much more than that of a small to medium-ish sized city.)

But then, there’s no way to really get a handle on this because it’s unclear how the magical economy works. Apparently there are shops for books, wands, robes, magic bags and so forth. But do all magic items have to come from shops, or just very high quality or specialized ones? Can’t you just wave a wand and make a copy of a textbook or the like? What’s involved in producing a magic item anyway? How much labor does it really take, and of what character? Does it take a lot of learned and specialized skill? Or just a lot of hard work/magical effort? (Are there magical sweatshops where unskilled witches and wizards drudge through there days casting enchantments to make bags of holding?)

What about all the magic foods and so forth? Could you conceivably run a household like the Weasely’s “DIY” style? Making your own food, clothes, everyday enchanted items, etc., perhaps only purchasing some mundane raw materials or a few specialized or luxury items? Or do you still need to go shopping? I.e., does magic more or less replace all of the industry and supply chains that we muggles rely on, or is everyone in the magical world just as highly economically integrated and reliant on shops and trade as we are?

Not that I expect a good novel to explain all of this.  Too much exposition and you’ve got an encyclopedia, not a good story.

Still, I think a really great world builder can envision it fully and then gesture at this kind of background stuff in a very convincing way. Rowling’s writing seems to me somewhat more ad hoc. I imagine she’s got a vague vision of magic Britain populated with people and institutions that kind of resemble regular Britain (or a slightly anachronistic version), but it’s not fully fleshed. Individual elements pop into existence in service of the plot rather than being pulled from a pre-existing coherent vision.

 

 

 

 

Comment #83: jack lecou  on  07/19  at  12:52 PM

There seems to be a lot of “because we do not see it, it did not/does not happen.” I grant that that’s generally sensible, but in the case of Harry Potter, a series set in a school with a point of view character that has not left school by the end of the series, I think it’s reaching to say that because we didn’t see something it doesn’t exist. In regards to a lack of Hogwarts alums in working-class jobs, how many Hogwarts students did we see after graduation (with identifiable jobs) - only a hand-ful, right? We have the adult Weasleys, and the main characters in the epilogue. Everyone else Harry runs into as an adult has a job that would lead him to run into them (ie, teachers, government functionaries, etc.) since he’s not out and about in the wizarding world much. So it’s a bit much to conclude that poorer kids just don’t get to go to Hogwarts or get a magical education, or that no Hogwarts alums go into working class jobs. (And we know there has to be some sort of scholarship program - how else would Tom Riddle have managed to go through Hogwarts?)

JK Rowling couldn’t have addressed all these issues within the context of the series, at least not without radically changing the series and making it something entirely different from what she wanted it to be. Honestly, the most basic answer to why the wizarding world is cloistered is that if it wasn’t the series would be entirely different. It may have been really interesting, but very, very different.

Comment #84: rivki  on  07/19  at  01:13 PM

Some families teach their own children, I think thats mentioned in book 4 at the world cup. Also, there is a fund for kids who can’t afford to pay their own way, thats how Tom Riddle orphaned though he is, is able to attend.

Comment #85: Leah Jaclyn  on  07/19  at  01:16 PM

Karla, but then, how does Ernie from the Knight Bus’s family pay for Hogwarts? That’s specifically a concern for Harry before Hagrid tells him that hey, no worries, your parents left you all this magic money, so don’t sweat it.  And why do none of the kids we know of in Hogwarts go onto working-class jobs?  And none of them (again, Hagrid being an exception) seem to have working-class accents.  Rowling is drawing on a very particular kind of boarding-school narrative that is about the schools attended by upper- and middle-class kids (traditionally boys, but obviously that’s different now).  I don’t see anything in the books to indicate that working-class kids go to Hogwarts.

I think this is exactly the kind of inconsistency I’m talking about.

Rowling set out to write a story something like genre stories about posh boarding schools. But then imagined a world in which there is only one school and ALL the magical children go to it. An ad hoc inheritance gets the title orphan character in, but I don’t think any thought was ever put into Ernie the Knight Bus driver’s tuition.

Maybe there are scholarships. Or maybe everyone gets an invitation letter, but if you show up without text books or tuition money than, well, sorry kid, guess you won’t be learning how to use magic. You can still push a mop, though, right? Here’s a copy of the magical want ads. Gringott’s needs a night janitor.

I don’t know how house elves fit into all of this either. What parts of the economy to they fit into? Just domestic service? And they love to serve - but only if it’s a castle or a manor, not the Weasely’s cottage. Etc.

Comment #86: jack lecou  on  07/19  at  01:16 PM

I think it’s clear that a lot of it is just ad hoc thrown in by analogy to the real world.

Pretty much. She thinks of something that sounds cool and throws it into the story with no thought of how it affects anything else. Why do people who can teleport need to take the train or the bus anywhere? Oh, because you can’t teleport until you’re sixteen, just like driving! Except other people can take you with them when they teleport, or you can jump in a fire or pick up a charmed hairbrush, but, uh, let’s just try to forget about all that.

Comment #87: junk science  on  07/19  at  01:24 PM

So, why wouldn’t the driver of the magic bus be an employee of the ministry of magic?  Do you folks have a lot of private bus companies running routes where you live?  With drivers who aren’t employees of such and such transit authority, or at the least authorized by some governmental authority?  My understanding was the magic bus was the equivalent of a regional/metro bus where the region/metro area was all magical places in Britain, but I suppose it could be more pseudo-governmental like Grey hound or Amtrak.  Except - British where buses, metro and the rail (until Thatcher) was public/government entities.

Comment #88: helen w. h.  on  07/19  at  01:29 PM

There seems to be a lot of “because we do not see it, it did not/does not happen.” I grant that that’s generally sensible, but in the case of Harry Potter, a series set in a school with a point of view character that has not left school by the end of the series, I think it’s reaching to say that because we didn’t see something it doesn’t exist.

Well, yeah, but this only goes so far. It’s one thing to catch glimpses of a complete, consistent world from Harry’s limited perspective. It’s another thing for settings, characters and institutions to pop up ad hoc to make the plot work.

If you step back and try to connect the dots between the details we do glimpse, well, it’s hard. It looks like a lot more of the latter process is going on than the former.

Comment #89: jack lecou  on  07/19  at  01:31 PM

So, why wouldn’t the driver of the magic bus be an employee of the ministry of magic?  Do you folks have a lot of private bus companies running routes where you live?  With drivers who aren’t employees of such and such transit authority, or at the least authorized by some governmental authority?

I don’t think that’s really the problem. Regardless of who’s signing the Gringott’s drafts, the point is that it’s a blue collar kind of job, so there are clearly blue collarish folks in magical Britain. Except we don’t really know much about the back story of people who might take blue collarish kinds of jobs.

Do they come from poor families. Do they go to Hogwarts. How do they pay. Is it meritocratic. Do Malfoys ever end up as bus drivers. Why don’t house elves or magic automatons or something do this kind of thing. Etc.

It’s fun to hypothesize about the gaps and also correct to point out that Rowling clearly didn’t spend much time thinking about this stuff. It was more like, “Harry needs a ride. Oh, how about a magical bus, that’d be cool.”

Comment #90: jack lecou  on  07/19  at  01:45 PM

I’m having a hard time seeing where the line falls between appropriate world-building that’s only seen in pieces, appropriate world-building if you fanwank to connect the dots, and bad world-building.

Example - transportation in the magical world, why is there transportation other than apparating? We know that some places are protected from apparition - so you’d need an alternate means to get to secure locations. We also know that you need to visualize where you’re apparating to, so everyone would need a means of transportation to a place they haven’t seen before (although it seems like you can use a picture - I’m not sure how Dumbledore got to the caves where Voldemort hid the locket). I could fanwank that not everyone passes the apparating test, and thus alternative forms of transportation are needed for those who can’t apparate at all or those who simply dislike it. Flooing is only possible if you’re on the network, so the magic bus is necessary when you’re coming from, or going to, a place not on the network. Since we only see the magic bus when Harry is coming from a muggle neighborhood, that fits. Was any of that exposition necessary to the story? No.

Comment #91: rivki  on  07/19  at  01:48 PM

So why did they go through that ordeal with the Portkeys to get to the Quidditch World Cup? There are chapters upon fucking chapters of exposition on how they had to walk halfway across town to get to it and what the hell not, all because the kids are too young to apparate. Two books later we get side-along apparition, which by the end of the book Harry can do himself despite not having a license and the kids are doing left and right in book seven. If Rowling had the slightest respect for logic or consistency, she would have left out side-along apparition. But she has a story to wrap up and we can no longer spend the better part of an 800-page book dithering about transportation.

Comment #92: junk science  on  07/19  at  02:05 PM

If you step back and try to connect the dots between the details we do glimpse, well, it’s hard. It looks like a lot more of the latter process is going on than the former.

Er, I have to point out her - they started as kid’s books.

Why does no-one ever talk about the economic consequences of personal flight in “Mary Poppins”? How come the mouse in “Goodnight Moon” isn’t being stalked by the cat?  How did Pippi in “Pippi Longstocking” evade child welfare agencies?

I suspect Rowling had a few “oh shit!” moments when she realised she’d grabbed a tiger by the tail and was now expected to justify her casually conceived world to an adult audience.  My sorrow for her is sorta muted by the billion or so she rightfully made being dragged by that tiger.

Comment #93: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/19  at  02:06 PM

Was any of that exposition necessary to the story?

Wasting time with irrelevant nonsense is the main selling point of these books. You’ll have to fanwank a bit harder than that.

Comment #94: junk science  on  07/19  at  02:08 PM

Er, I have to point out her - they started as kid’s books.

And if they had stayed kids’ books instead of turning into treatises on Love and Death and Racism, I wouldn’t care about any of these details. Hell, if they had managed to have a satisfying ending, I’d give them a pass on most of it.

Comment #95: junk science  on  07/19  at  02:11 PM

I’m having a hard time seeing where the line falls between appropriate world-building that’s only seen in pieces, appropriate world-building if you fanwank to connect the dots, and bad world-building.

I don’t know that there’s any hard and fast rule. I don’t even know that everyone has to agree on what’s what. Great world building is also not necessarily a requirement for good story telling - Harry Potter is a pretty fun read regardless.

But while there’re hints of a rich and compelling world in HP, a lot of those hints just seem to have an ad hoc, if not actually contradictory, character to them. The details we get from Rowling often seem to raise more questions than they answer, and even if it seems like kind of an interesting place, it’s hard to form a coherent idea of what really makes magical Britain tick. (Maybe some of the trouble is simply that, in five progressively thicker books, there are a whole lot of hints and details - every one of them is a thread that can be pulled on.)

Comment #96: jack lecou  on  07/19  at  02:15 PM

For christ’s sake, people.

Comment #97: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/19  at  02:26 PM

So why did they go through that ordeal with the Portkeys to get to the Quidditch World Cup?

Dude, I don’t know. Maybe it was a secure location that was protected from apparating (or it was when everyone was arriving, since you wouldn’t want people apparating into each other), maybe it’s just too hard to have one adult side-along apparating with that many kids. But it’s such an irrelevant detail that I don’t care if JK Rowling contradicted herself. I don’t expect world-building to be perfect, I expect it to be sufficiently coherent not to throw me out of the narrative and intriguing enough to warrant reading more. One of the reasons I really like the world that JK Rowling created is that it gives me enough to think about really interesting issues, even if she doesn’t address them. And I don’t fault her for not addressing them, because she was writing a story, and that story couldn’t fit everything that might be worth thinking about.

To get back to the main point of the post - I find the class/blood segregation of the wizarding world to be a really interesting commentary on privilege and out-groups. Since there’s no real difference between pure-bloods and everyone else, the only way to maintain a social hierarchy that privileges the hereditary elite (and discourage societal change that might challenge their power) is to create prejudice against newcomers. That way you give the non-rich, non-elite magical community a stake in maintaining the caste system, because they get to think of themselves as better than the muggle-born and their children. And by creating and fostering prejudice against muggles, you get muggle-borns trying to adapt and not upsetting the cart by importing ideas (both practical and ideological) from the muggle world. And to the extent new ideas are imported, they’re scorned as “muggle” and therefore unworthy. So of course magical society is stagnating, of course they venerate the past - they’ve created a perfect conservative haven where nothing changes and new things are reflexively rejected.

Comment #98: rivki  on  07/19  at  02:31 PM

Why does no-one ever talk about the economic consequences of personal flight in “Mary Poppins”? How come the mouse in “Goodnight Moon” isn’t being stalked by the cat?  How did Pippi in “Pippi Longstocking” evade child welfare agencies?

Well, to start with, I don’t know that many people have read the Mary Poppins books. I think if millions were reading them right now, you’d probably see exactly that sort of thing.

I’d also conjecture that this kind of “fanwank” is directly (maybe exponentially) proportional to the amount of exposition that’s already in the book. Mary Poppins books look pretty thin - and the movie is certainly pretty thin on exposition - and I think that’s usually what’s conducive to maintaining that dream-like, fairy-tale tone where explaining the magic isn’t actually necessary.

If Mary Poppins contained dozens or hundreds of pages/minutes of exposition, with visits to nice Mr. Slatkin’s umbrella shop, classroom scenes explaining the operation of a type VI magic wind riding device (aka, umbrella), talk of a whole war-torn magical land where Poppins’ people came from and where everyone flies around on umbrellas, etc., then you’d see a lot more effort to fill in the remaining blanks.

Comment #99: jack lecou  on  07/19  at  02:31 PM

I suddenly realized the school problem that you all just aren’t getting because I have the same blind spot most of the time. 
Throughout most of the world, school is not free.  Not even public school that the government requires you to send you kids to is free (see Vietnam, Singapore, Japan, etc).  It requires fees, uniforms, books, supplies.  Other people throughout the world just see that as fact; only in the US and Canada (and a few other places) is public school literally free to the direct users.  Though that has been slowly erroding for us with the supplies required expanding over my lifetime and the return/advent of school uniform requirements.
Rowling is writing from a different world perspective than most of the people here hold.  Her experience is not yours.

Comment #100: helen w. h.  on  07/19  at  02:35 PM

Why are people assuming Hogwarts has tuition?  Iirc, the expenses explicitly mentioned were books and supplies, tuition was never talked about.  Seems just as likely to me that the attendance is free beyond the incidental books and materials.  The amount of governmental interference going on in later books certainly suggests that the school is not an entirely private entity.

And why assume that people like Rosmerta or Ernie never attended?  I assumed they had.  I definitely thought that Tonk’s aristocratic mother must have met her decidedly blue-collar father at school.  And, as has been mentioned, Tom Riddle was living in an orphanage and care was taken to seek him out.  And doesn’t Hannah Abbot end up running the Leaky Cauldron?  Wasn’t Snape also from some dreary, industrial sort of town with the implication being that he was both materially and emotionally impoverished as a child?

I don’t think you can look at accents as conveyed by the American editions of Harry Potter - my understanding being that regionalisms and dialect were toned down for Americans - and assume no working class presence at Hogwarts.

Comment #101: martian  on  07/19  at  02:47 PM

Oh, and robes and wands.  I forgot those expenses.  Incidentals do add up - Harry had plenty to be anxious about financially before his inherited windfall even without tuition in the mix.

Comment #102: martian  on  07/19  at  02:54 PM

But it’s such an irrelevant detail that I don’t care if JK Rowling contradicted herself. I don’t expect world-building to be perfect, I expect it to be sufficiently coherent not to throw me out of the narrative and intriguing enough to warrant reading more.

Except these details aren’t irrelevant to Rowling at all. She spends chapters and chapters talking about transportation and food and mail delivery. If she’s going to focus on minutiae with such precision, she should damn well put half a second’s actual thought into it. I don’t like finding out that I’ve wasted my time when an author gives me reason to believe she actually does have a point and she’s getting to it.

Comment #103: junk science  on  07/19  at  02:57 PM

I don’t think Hogwarts charges tuition or board per se; the only financial strain is in buying books, uniforms, & materials, providing pocket money, and so forth.  And as was mentioned above, the Tom Riddle orphanage flashback has Dumbledore mentioning a fund for helping poor students with those things, plus there’s clearly a strong market in used books & uniforms (as with colleges & private schools in the US).

In one of the books—fourth or fifth?—the kids spend time looking over career-guidance brochures & talking about the classes & qualifications required.  IIRC, there was a somewhat amusing take on the really upbeat recruitment pitches for crappy jobs.

Comment #104: latts  on  07/19  at  03:04 PM

Rowling is writing from a different world perspective than most of the people here hold.  Her experience is not yours.

It’s not just that though. The ‘problem’ (if it is such, I don’t want any of this to sound like an indictment, it’s just criticism in the literary sense) is that Rowling is creating a new world by analogy to the real world. So “magical Britain” and its citizens are supposed to be just like regular Britain, but with magic wands.  But of course magic wands change everything.

And it’s not always clear how. In some ways, things are still pretty ordinary. There are trains (ok, magic trains), buses, shops, banks, money, pubs, newspapers, boarding schools, kitchen stoves, ministers, bureaucracies, suits and ties, etc. Maybe there are some British-isms, but it’s all more or less familiar.

And then there are anachronisms. Torches, robes, castles and carriages. The trains, stoves, artifacts and armaments are all obviously borrowed (then enchanted, natch) from muggle land, but from seemingly random eras. The pattern of borrowing tends to follow typical fantasy tropes (magic swords) - or else defaults to a slightly romantic and bygone British age - but there doesn’t seem to be a system that makes the borrowing internally consistent.

Then there’s completely new stuff. Owls. Floo travel and disapparating. Butter beer. Waving a wand to make food or heal a broken arm. House elves. Magic bags. Goblins in waistcoats. Time travel. Universal franchise and direct democracy in the 13th century, keeping the whole thing completely separate and-at-the-same-time intimately joined and marching in lockstep to the muggle world, etc. Some of this stuff has really far reaching implications for things like economics, culture, and social justice.

There are ways to make it all more or less fit together - you can draw lines between any dots - but they aren’t necessarily straightforward. And if twelve people gave it a try, you’d get a dozen completely different results. You can’t really have any confidence that any of them were the way Rowling would have intended, or, indeed, that a lot of this stuff was considered at all.

Comment #105: jack lecou  on  07/19  at  03:23 PM

So you think JK Rowling is wasting your time because she doesn’t have the twins whining about why Arthur doesn’t side-along them to the games and have him explain that anti-apparition spells have been cast, and so they have to take a portkey? The portkey scene was necessary to the plot. It reintroduces Cedric Diggory (and introduces his father) and establishes a means of transportation that can be used without the intention of the person being transported. Without the boot at the beginning of the book, Harry and Cedric aren’t transported out of the maze for the climax. It’s a Chekov’s gun.

Look, most of the plot of Goblet of Fire depends on Voldemort being a drama queen of the highest order. The whole wand-lore thing in Deathly Hallows makes very little sense.  In fact, there are a number of plot-holes in the series. I read (and reread) the series because I love the characters and I love the worldbuilding. I don’t expect perfection, and I’m perfectly willing to handwave or fanwank the bits that aren’t perfect. If you can’t tolerate some nitpicks while enjoying the story this isn’t the series for you. 

I also think it’s interesting that you’re excoriating Rowling for failing to anticipate a minor point in book six that became a somewhat bigger plot-point in book seven, while writing a scene from book four. On the whole I think she did an amazing job about establishing early on what would become relevant later. And I really don’t see how she wasted your time at all.

Comment #106: rivki  on  07/19  at  03:33 PM

It’s a Chekov’s gun.

Exactly. It’s perfectly good storytelling. But it isn’t world building.

Comment #107: jack lecou  on  07/19  at  03:46 PM

Sady Doyle’s writeup is interesting:  http://globalcomment.com/2011/in-praise-of-hermione-granger-series/

Comment #108: Nutella  on  07/19  at  04:02 PM

Too much exposition and you’ve got an encyclopedia

Many of us are hoping for exactly that! 

Again, I raise the example of the Sherlock Holmes canon, the inconsistencies in which have inspired quite a few books.  Yet no one attacks Doyle the way JKR gets attacked.  Maybe if you’re a regular fantasy reader you have a higher standard of internal consistency than the rest of us do.  I’m not.  And I’d sacrifice consistency for storytelling any time.

Comment #109: mischiefmanager  on  07/19  at  05:06 PM

I also think it’s interesting that you’re excoriating Rowling for failing to anticipate a minor point in book six that became a somewhat bigger plot-point in book seven, while writing a scene from book four.

She’s the one writing the books. She doesn’t have to anticipate anything because she’s making the whole thing up herself. She decides what the plot points are and what the story will hinge on. She chooses to ignore what she wrote before because she has no respect for her readers, most of whom don’t expect it in the first place.

Again, if you’re satisfied with shoddy worldbuilding and nonexistent internal logic, that’s wonderful for you. That doesn’t mean no one else is allowed to criticize the books or feel like they’ve been cheated. Up until the last book I was willing to overlook the nonsense, but being handed that pile of unmitigated crap was the last straw. I want those hours of my life back, I’m not going to get them, and now I’m going to get whatever enjoyment I can out of these books by trashing the hell out of them.

Comment #110: junk science  on  07/19  at  05:28 PM

Yet no one attacks Doyle the way JKR gets attacked.  Maybe if you’re a regular fantasy reader you have a higher standard of internal consistency than the rest of us do.  I’m not.  And I’d sacrifice consistency for storytelling any time.

I, for one, am not attacking. At least I hope not. I think it’s a pretty good story, with decentish social justice themes considering its popularity, and a reasonably impressive work altogether.

But the fact is it doesn’t have really great world building - it’s sort of a half-built world with a lot of crooked walls and rooms with windows but no doors - and we shouldn’t pretend otherwise just because what we do have makes it seem kind of interesting. It’s not actually masterpiece it might have been had it been backed by a solidly built world.

In fact, what I would say is that the colorful, half-built world we do have is what makes extrapolations like MOR so fun (at least in theory, YMMV, with MOR in particular it seems).

She’s the one writing the books. She doesn’t have to anticipate anything because she’s making the whole thing up herself. She decides what the plot points are and what the story will hinge on. She chooses to ignore what she wrote before because she has no respect for her readers, most of whom don’t expect it in the first place.

Yes. I’m not sure I’d be so harsh, but “she couldn’t have known about this stuff in book 5 in book 3” is not a good excuse. From her public comments, it’s pretty evident that she had the plot and characters worked out way in advance. That’s how she manages to sprinkle so many clues in there and makes them all pay off in the end.

It’s just that it’s clearly a plot and character driven work, not so much a world driven one. And that’s more or less okay.

Of course, it’s a lot more okay in a Chekov play or Sherlock Holmes, where the world is already built, so everyone knows what a gun does, what the implications of possessing or firing one is, etc. The difference in a work of fantasy or science fiction is that you don’t put a gun on the mantle, you put a magic wand, or a portkey, or a wormhole portal on the mantle. And that stuff shouldn’t just be a prop, its existence in your world changes it from the one the audience knows. You don’t (necessarily) have to go into excruciating technical detail about how something works. Often it’s better not to, and instead let the audience try to figure out how things work on their own. Show, don’t tell. But to do that, you do have to let these things be part of the world. Work out what the limitations are, how they’re going to change how everything else works and how people react to them beyond their mere existence as plot devices.

I don’t think that stuff is as well worked out in the HP canon as it could have been.

Comment #111: jack lecou  on  07/19  at  06:02 PM

Regarding house elves, I have a rather different take. Rather than a defence of slavery, it could be seen as a lesson in the ideological blindness.

Hermione genuinely wants to help the House Elves, but in assuming their desire for freedom and wages is the same as hers, she fails to listen to what the elves themselves actually want. They aren’t human, and their needs could be completely different. Even if you remove the political/class aspects, they are still different species: Dogs and Hamsters may both be pets, but they have very different needs as well.

As a result, her efforts are rebuffed by those she tries to help. It’s not until she and Harry deal with Kreature on his terms: his desire to be useful, to care for the home, and to be treated with kindness and respect in that role, that her efforts become effective.

There have been many sincere efforts by activists to improve the lives of others, but without involvement and feedback from the people within the targeted community, those efforts can be useless or counterproductive. Think about the early paternalistic efforts of environmentalists in Africa being resisted for colonial associations, and compare that to modern efforts which takes the livelihood of the locals into consideration first. The Burqa Ban in France could be another example of this.

Even if it’s assumed that the enslavement of House Elves is something forced upon them, then their reaction against the ideas put forward still had to be taken into account. If one wishes to inspire the underclass to a revolution, best be sure those guns won’t be aimed at you first.

That’s just my read on it.

Comment #112: Left_Wing_Fox  on  07/19  at  10:04 PM

I REALLY enjoyed the house-elves subplot, both Hermione’s horror at their enslavement and their varied reactions to freedom.  Because not all people who are in lousy situations do well in good ones, if they haven’t been trained to make their own decisions since birth, like we are.

Also, it’s magic.  The house-elves are what they are.  As genetic engineering continues, we will be perfectly capable of manufacturing healthy, stupid humans who like to be told what to do.  What will we do then?

Comment #113: Punditus Maximus  on  07/20  at  11:41 AM

Also, it’s magic.  The house-elves are what they are.  As genetic engineering continues, we will be perfectly capable of manufacturing healthy, stupid humans who like to be told what to do.  What will we do then?

Dedicate a special television to tell them what to think, and then use them to seize political power for the benefit of the elite.

Comment #114: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/20  at  04:48 PM

Dedicate a special television to tell them what to think, and then use them to seize political power for the benefit of the elite.

Zing! Love it.

Comment #115: twg_  on  07/20  at  07:50 PM

I just find it hard to believe that the culture that produced Spaced, The IT Crowd, and the charaicter of Oliver on the final season of Coupling doesn’t have a sense of the geek as a social outcast loser.

I think it’s worth pointing out that these are all pretty recent series, and are at least partly a result of US social tropes being assimilated into the UK via TV culture.

UK literature, especially school literature, does have the losers and the winners, but they aren’t the same shape as the US versions, and tend to be much more based around class.  The closest equivalent I can personally think of to the “jock” paradigm in HP-world is actually Malfoy - rich, upper class, a bit sporty (but in an upper class, “gentlemanly”) and also brainy.

Of course, Harry Potter is that himself too, although I think it’s worth pointing out that he’s also a child who was orphaned very young, forced on a family that didn’t want him, neglected and emotionally abused, then thrown into a boarding school at age 11.  My experience of people who went through the British public school system (by which I mean private schools, often boarding schools) is that they came out as absolute wankers, or absolute sweeties, with nothing in between.  From what I can see of Harry, he falls into the “sweetie” category, albeit with some stumbles on the way.

Comment #116: Katherine  on  07/21  at  04:37 AM
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