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Next entry: Sunny disinfectant Previous entry: Why we don’t deserve nice things: Fundies and Halloween edition

Southern gentility way overrated

The South

I'm with Atrios; cut the crap. Kim Severson is way too kind to "Southern gentility". She admits that a lot of it is about reinforcing gender and racial hierarchies, but there's still a whiff of trying to bamboozle the Yankees by exoticizing our quaint Southern ways in this article. Particularly since "chivalry" was the defense in the nakedly racist incident that inspired her article:

One August night, two men walked into a popular restaurant attached to [Atlanta's] fanciest shopping mall. They sat at the bar, ordered drinks and pondered the menu. Two women stood behind them.

A bartender asked if they would mind offering their seats to the ladies. Yes, they would mind. Very much.

Guess the races of the men and the women in this story. With your guess in mind, consider this:

Angry words came next, then a federal court date and a claim for more than $3 million in damages.

The men, a former professional basketball player and a lawyer, also happen to be black. The women are white. The men’s lawyers argued that the Tavern at Phipps used a policy wrapped in chivalry as a cloak for discriminatory racial practices.

After a week’s worth of testimony in September, a judge decided in favor of the bar.

"Chivalry" was the reason. What Severson neglects to mention is that "chivalry" has always been used as an excuse for racial discrimination and worse, lynching in the South. Segregation was justified in no small part as a way to protect precious white women from supposedly unchivalrous black men. She just goes straight into this: 

At least, it used to be. The Tavern at Phipps case, and a growing portfolio of examples of personal and political behavior that belies a traditional code of gentility, have scholars of Southern culture and Southerners themselves wondering if civility in the South is dead, or at least wounded.

This is where the B.S. is at its thickest. Texas has the same kind of chivalrous codes as the rest of the South, even if we don't put up the front of gentility.  I have never had a strange man offer me a seat at a bar on the grounds of being female. It's simply not expected. Just like in the North, someone might give up a seat to someone whose shoes look uncomfortable, but it's not gendered, per se. Certainly you would never expect a bartender to demand it. There is a chivalrous ritual of giving up seats in crowded bars, but men generally only offer to women they know. So, if a stranger is standing near you, you wouldn't igve up your seat. But if a strange woman is introduced to a man, he will often immediately offer up his seat. Of course, what's not discussed about chivalry is that it's often about a man showing off how generous he is than a woman being coddled. (Not always; a lot of men are just generically gracious, and you can often tell the difference because they don't object if women offer generosity in return, or they don't get ruffled if women politely decline.) If you actually take him up on the offer, he gains a little power over you because men who show even minor generosity are supposed to be fawned over, and you're supposed to be a little more lax in setting boundaries with him. Which is why it's pointless to offer your seat to a woman you haven't been introduced to her. Men who make these offers to strange women are generally assumed to be angling for an introduction, which of course will be made with you in social debt to him, so you pretty much have to give him some flirtage time, lest you be deemed a bitch. Chivalry is not to women's benefit in the South.

Anyway, it's all bullshit. I've never heard of a man being expected to give up a seat to a woman he doesn't know, and that it was so racialized suggests that this was no coincidence. The same act can have different meanings in different situations. A man offering his seat to a stranger is generally going to be read as "hitting on her", unless there's an extenuating circumstance such as a huge age disparity or she's obviously not well. A man being told to give his seat up is being demeaned, and having his manhood questioned. Elaborate social codes are there to be endlessly manipulated in this way, to give plausible deniability to abusive or power-mongering behavior. I'm a big fan instead of having a "do unto others" philosophy of etiquette. 

That said, I am hypocritcally grateful for the linguistic passive agressiveness that I bathed in my whole life living in Texas. The practice of cutting someone down while pretending to say something nice about them teaches one the finer aspects of the creative use of insulting language. I suspect that's a reason that so many fine wits come out of Texas, where there's a bizarro but intoxicating mix of Western bluntness and Southern gentility. You learn how to simultaneously call someone an asshole if the need be, but also to bless someone's heart if that's going to cut closer to the bone. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:41 PM • (89) Comments

I agree with the main point of this post, but I have to say a good word for good manners in general.  I work in a conservative industry, and, sadly, conservatives are just plain nicer to be around than most of the liberals I know.  They don’t chew with their mouths open, they say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ and generally act like products of civilization.  Being polite and gracious is NOT some way of enforcing hierarchies.  If anything, being from a lower-class background but adopting the manners of the upper classes does more to smash those hierarchies than 10 weeks of OWS.  After all, how can the hierarchs enforce matters if they can’t identify the people who need to be mistreated?

Comment #1: KarenJo12  on  11/01  at  07:29 PM

Having been raised in Georgia, I completely agree. “Southern hospitality” is a total myth.

At any rate, hospitality is something you yourself choose to offer (or not), not something you demand that other people offer. But in some cultures (including the American South), expectations of hospitality are one way to establish one’s superior social position. In the past, if you were higher on the social ladder (say, a white man), you could show up out of the blue and demand hospitality from someone lower on the social ladder (say, a black man) no matter what kind of inconvenience it might be for the latter.

The fact that that’s not so ubiquitous today doesn’t mean you can just ignore the history of Southern chivalry or pretend that it doesn’t still carry racist and sexist undertones.

Comment #2: Triplanetary  on  11/01  at  07:35 PM

bizarro but intoxicating mix of Western bluntness and Southern gentility

True, that.  My mom spent one Southwest flight sitting next to a middle-aged Texan man who was wearing a cowboy hat.  Her arthritis was bothering her that day, and she couldn’t open her package of peanuts, so she asked him to do it for her. 

Now, most people would have just torn open the sack and handed it back to her.  This guy boomed “WHY, SURE THING, LITTLE LADY!”, whipped out the biggest Bowie knife she’d ever seen, cut the bag open, and gave it back to her.

Comment #3: Blue Jean  on  11/01  at  07:35 PM

I work in a conservative industry, and, sadly, conservatives are just plain nicer to be around than most of the liberals I know.  They don’t chew with their mouths open, they say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ and generally act like products of civilization.

That’s hardly been my experience. At least, I haven’t noticed any correlation between one’s political inclinations and chewing with one’s mouth open and saying please/thank you. If anything I find conservatives likelier to be obnoxious and passive aggressive, but then, we’re probably both seeing the world through the lens of some sort of selection bias.

Being polite and gracious is NOT some way of enforcing hierarchies.

Depends on the specific rules. Chewing with your mouth closed isn’t a way of enforcing hierarchies, no, but many tenets of “polite society” absolutely are. There are polite behaviors that just make you more aesthetically pleasant to be around, such as not showing off the half-masticated food in your mouth, and polite behaviors that are just pointless rituals and cultural baggage, like standing up when a woman enters the room or gets up from the table.

If anything, being from a lower-class background but adopting the manners of the upper classes does more to smash those hierarchies than 10 weeks of OWS.  After all, how can the hierarchs enforce matters if they can’t identify the people who need to be mistreated?

Ah, if the lower classes and unemployed would just stop acting like such barbarians (racist implications fully intended, mind you), they wouldn’t be so oppressed. I knew it must be the victims’ fault somehow!

Comment #4: Triplanetary  on  11/01  at  07:44 PM

It’s nice to see a generic, mid-level chain restaurant catering to the young, yuppie transplants relying on pretensions of southern hospitality to further to worthy goal of keeping black folk with money to spend out of Lenox.

Comment #5: scrumby  on  11/01  at  07:47 PM

Blue Jean, perhaps I am misreading, but are you saying the Texan had a huge bowie knife on a plane?

Comment #6: John Joel Glanton  on  11/01  at  07:51 PM

And yes, Southern Gentility is overrated. Or so it seems. Never experienced it in Austin. And sure as hell will never experience it in Seattle.

Comment #7: John Joel Glanton  on  11/01  at  07:52 PM

Blue Jean, perhaps I am misreading, but are you saying the Texan had a huge bowie knife on a plane?

This was often possible before 9/11.

Comment #8: Triplanetary  on  11/01  at  07:52 PM

I think the real give away that this is something more than chivalry is that there were heated words after the refusal to move. These guys are a ex-pro athlete and a lawyer. It’s probably safe to assume they’re in an upper income tax bracket.  There is no way a bartender at an upscale establishment would ever get in the face of a couple of wealthy middle aged white men. 

Oh, and the last part of this post made me miss Molly Ivins.

Comment #9: RunDNC  on  11/01  at  08:01 PM

#6; Triplanetary beat me to it. (thanks, Triplanetary!)

Yeah, it sounds hard to believe now, but before 9/11 you could bring all kinds of stuff on a plane, Bowie knives included.  You could hug your friends goodbye without going through security, you didn’t have to take your shoes off or run the risk of being frisked…

*sigh* Lord above, now I’m getting nostalgic..

Comment #10: Blue Jean  on  11/01  at  08:09 PM

Totally agree with the last bit about an insult couched in a kind word. Think about it next time someone says she’ll “pray for you.”

Comment #11: JonE  on  11/01  at  08:13 PM

Yeah, sort of like those Christers who have that amazing ability to make “I’ll pray for you” sound exactly like “fuck you.”

Comment #12: phylosopher  on  11/01  at  08:16 PM

sorry jon - we must have been on the same thought train.

Comment #13: phylosopher  on  11/01  at  08:17 PM

And yes, Southern Gentility is overrated. Or so it seems. Never experienced it in Austin. And sure as hell will never experience it in Seattle.

Ah, you’ve never experienced “Seattle Nice”?  A local insurance company has a nice little commercial that shows two cars at at four-way stop, each motioning for the other to “go ahead”, “no, you go ahead”, and causing total gridlock.

That said, the ONLY things I miss about living in the South is the veneer of politeness (however thin) and the whole “bless her heart, she can’t help it” way of sugar-coating an insult.  As RunDNC says, it makes me miss Molly Ivins.  And Ann Richards could do this in spades; who could forget her comment about GHW Bush, “Poor George, he can’t help it; he was born with a silver foot in his mouth.”

Comment #14: NobleExperiments  on  11/01  at  08:24 PM

And yes, Southern Gentility is overrated. Or so it seems. Never experienced it in Austin. And sure as hell will never experience it in Seattle.

Ah, you’ve never experienced “Seattle Nice”?  A local insurance company has a nice little commercial that shows two cars at at four-way stop, each motioning for the other to “go ahead”, “no, you go ahead”, and causing total gridlock.

The ONLY things I miss about living in the South is the veneer of politeness (however thin) and the whole “bless her heart, she can’t help it” way of sugar-coating an insult.  As RunDNC says, it makes me miss Molly Ivins.  And Ann Richards could do this in spades; who could forget her comment about GHW Bush, “Poor George, he can’t help it; he was born with a silver foot in his mouth.”

Comment #15: NobleExperiments  on  11/01  at  08:28 PM

As Amanda noted, “gentlemanly” behavior is often an excuse for a person to get past your personal boundaries; in fact, the entire song “The Chair” by George Strait is based around that very premise. In the song it’s comedy, but of course it’s also kind of creepy if you think about it much.

Honestly, I prefer a guy who is just obviously chatting me up to one who uses some elaborate politeness to interact with me.

Comment #16: emjaybee  on  11/01  at  08:34 PM

there’s a reason luda’s song about “throwing ‘bows” is called “southern hospitality.” ;p

Comment #17: chibi  on  11/01  at  08:43 PM

A man offering his seat to a stranger is generally going to be read as “hitting on her”, unless there’s an extenuating circumstance such as a huge age disparity or she’s obviously not well.

What about giving up a seat to a pregnant woman?  Whenever I’ve seen the subject come up among white men, they take great exception at the expectation of chivalry in that case, and meanwhile men of color and women of any race are far more likely to offer a seat to a pregnant woman than a white man is.

Which obviously goes to show that chivalry is something that is really only expected of people considered “lesser than,” while white men generally get a pass.

Comment #18: keshmeshi  on  11/01  at  08:46 PM

I never said I was against good manners, Karen.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/01  at  08:48 PM

kesh, pregnancy is covered under “extenuating circumstances”.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/01  at  08:48 PM

This is a confusing case.  There’s no way to know (from information provided) how long the men were at the bar, what the bar’s policies were on bar stools, or even what was said.

I totally can see a server asking someone to make room, or circulate, or ask for room for friends or people the bar thinks will bring in more dollars or whatever without race ever being involved.

But I can also totally see race being involved.  *sigh*

Comment #21: Crissa  on  11/01  at  08:54 PM

I’ve found that there are (at least) two kinds of conservative when if comes to politeness. The old-school kind will be quite polite and nice and well-mannered as long as you fit in with them (and politely make sure you never get anywhere if you don’t). The new-school kind will smoke cigarettes at dinner without asking, elbow you out of the way and the bar, and (if they think you’re one of them) make sad jokes about how they can’t call people n***** or c*** in public any more.

Comment #22: paul  on  11/01  at  09:15 PM

Conservatives tend to be more socially adept—or IME more conformist, manipulative, etc.—than liberals in general, so yeah, there’s a decent argument that conservatives can be superficially more pleasant, albeit always with an eye on their own standing or at least a positive presentation.  Doesn’t mean they’re nicer or kinder, or more altruistic, or even more loving… just that they are extremely attuned to both social niceties and their own social behavior.  This benefits them politically because tribalism absolutely requires elaborate codes of conduct, and of course their politeness often disarms those who might be somewhat critical if they paid more attention to the substance and consequences of conservatives’ beliefs.

Comment #23: latts  on  11/01  at  09:29 PM

Sadly, a very perfect analysis. That being said, I love love love forever “Bless his/her/their heart.” God, hearing that shit makes me giddy happy because it’s so perfectly polite and condescending all at once!

I can’t stand Southern notions of gentility, chivalry and propriety, but I’ve always - and will always - love the idea of Southern hospitality. I think, at its best, it takes one of the very best notions of Christian faith about acceptance and openness and codifies it socially, and it’s sad to see people fall short of it for all the reasons they do (adherence to the greater social order, religion vs. faith, race/gender/sex bigotry). And while I no longer go to church, when I would get dragged out to one, it was always warming to do the whole stand, hug the people around you, sit routine. This may be SOP at churches everywhere, but my only church experience outside the South was a Catholic service in Ohio, and they weren’t having it.

None of which is to discount what goes on down here, or to wax poetic about the place. It’s just always been very tangible for me that if the people would just get out of their own way and embrace the legitimately positive parts of the culture the entire country would be better for it.

Comment #24: Big_Southern  on  11/01  at  09:37 PM

I’m a big fan instead of having a “do unto others” philosophy of etiquette.

Judith Martin, AKA Miss Manners, often said that the whole point of etiquette was to make social interactions as easy and comfortable as possible for all involved, not to belittle, shame, or manipulate.

Comment #25: DonnaDiva  on  11/01  at  10:07 PM

Years ago the idea was for men to give up your seat to a woman wherever you might happen to go.  It was simply what you were supposed to do. 

There were always race and class divisions, of course, such that a Black woman wouldn’t expect a White man to give up his seat, nor would a maid expect a businessman, but among supposed social equals, it was just a general rule.

It was only when it was no longer assumed that men should give up a seat to a woman that it became possible to use it for sexualized flirtation.  Until then a man was just as obligated to cede his seat to an older woman as a cutie.  More so in fact because of the “age before beauty” rule.

Once the expectation no longer really existed, you could bestow or withhold the seat based on whether you wanted to impress a woman with your “manners.”  Of course if you really knew your manners you wouldn’t be using them selectively but would give up your seat to anyone who seemed to need it and would help and be helped as made sense rather than based on an arbitrary rule.

Comment #26: oldfeminist  on  11/01  at  11:38 PM

A couple of times I’ve given up a table in a crowded bar to another group who seemed to need it (in one case a mother and child) and been rewarded by the bartender with a free drink. Who knew that empathy could be so profitable?

Comment #27: bad Jim  on  11/01  at  11:53 PM

There was a good cartoon (Callahan?) with a labeled Southerner saying “Oh how nice!” and thinking “Fuck you” and a labled New Yorker doing the opposite.
I’ve seen fellow Southerners try to brag on the reputation as cover to say some nasty things.  Remember when Zell Miller said on TV in reference to Chris Matthews that he wished you could still challenge a man to a duel?

Comment #28: ganews_  on  11/02  at  12:05 AM

I always tell people that in the South, you can say anything you want about anyone as long as you follow it with “Bless his/her heart.”

“That boy is just dumb as a box of rocks, bless his heart!”

It’s a turn of phrase that I have adopted without trying since leaving the South. It’s just so useful for so many situations!

Comment #29: artdyke  on  11/02  at  12:18 AM

@artdyke: but isn’t it “I mean no disrespect” when you get up into the north east? That nice cover for something really awful isn’t really unique to the south. It’s just the little old church lady image that goes with it.

Comment #30: scrumby  on  11/02  at  12:45 AM

So, bottom line: Chivalry may be dead in the South, but racism is still alive, kickin’ and finding new ways to rear its ugly head.

Comment #31: Dan2108  on  11/02  at  12:52 AM

I’ve found the men-giving-seats-to-women thing to be all wrapped up with class and race, too.  I don’t know about bars, but on public transportation I find that whites usually go through doors/assign seats in order of arrival but many, not all or even most, black and hispanic men will wave me (middle-aged white woman) ahead to get on the bus first or offer me a seat.  In this neighborhood the black and hispanic people are usually working class and the whites usually middle class so that may come into it.  I find it kind of annoying and would prefer that we all just take our turn but figure they’re trying to be polite so I accept the ‘please go ahead’ politely and usually turn down the offered seat politely.  Some of them seem annoyed that I don’t accept the offered seat.

Comment #32: Nutella  on  11/02  at  01:28 AM

Yeah, my wife noticed that even when her pregnancy became very obvious (only the last couple months), the white guys wouldn’t offer her a seat, but pretty much anybody else would.

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Comment #34: Monclerss Jackets  on  11/02  at  02:45 AM

If anything, being from a lower-class background but adopting the manners of the upper classes does more to smash those hierarchies than 10 weeks of OWS.

If all that were true, why is it that the south is so much more socially stratified?

But, yes, I will admit that it is my conservative friends who were the ones to both identify the proper social/class markers and then, in addition, made a determined effort to adopt them in order to try to fit in with those groups.  Which I found strange because I grew up with all those class markers and knew them but was much happier not to be bound by their restrictions or judged by them.

People forget that these forms of “politeness” is all about enforcing hierarchies and fulfilling demands of unearned “respect.” It’s all well and good for children to address their teachers as “sir” and “ma’am”, but when the assistant manager at Wal-Mart demands that everyone address him as “Mr. William, sir,” it’s an attempt to “keep everyone in their place.”

Comment #35: Tyro  on  11/02  at  02:52 AM

Nutella:  It may be that the seats are so uncomfortable that sometimes having an excuse not to sit on the bus is a relief, too.

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Comment #38: Monclerss Jackets  on  11/02  at  04:11 AM

i spent a year in atlanta and learned, practically on day one, just how thin the veneer of “southern hospitality” really is. if it can even be called a veneer. georgians are, in general, nasty and judgmental. white georgians are also profoundly, deeply racist. my spouse, who was working under contract for the CDC and not a US citizen at the time, was threatened with deportation for not carrying a green card. not by actual immigration officials or supervisors, but low level security guards and even computer tech support. and don’t even get me started on the open hostility displayed toward us as an interracial couple with kids.

one of the few amusements for me was asking people in atlanta how they liked living in the northeast, since after all, i had previously lived in parts of new mexico and california that are further south.

Comment #39: cj  on  11/02  at  08:23 AM

Bless your heart, cj!  Perhaps one of the reasons we love supposed gentility is that means when someone wants to make a mean generalization, even if it applies to many people, they keep it to themselves.

Comment #40: ganews_  on  11/02  at  08:34 AM

I always got the feeling that “What a fascinating tale! Come, you must visit us in the summer.” in a Victorian novel generally meant “I’m sick of your interminable anecdotes and generalizations. Fuck off, I hope I never see you again.”

Comment #41: norbizness  on  11/02  at  09:03 AM

I grew up in northern Florida (Jacksonville), which is technically Southern, but in a whole different, lower class sort of way. There was never any notion of “gentility” associated with it. Then we moved to Southern Georgia (Albany), and cj is right. They were assholes with rigid “us and them” hierarchies who used pious but clearly fake hospitality to cover up for it. People would be polite to you but it was always painfully clear that they considered you an outsider who would be tolerated but never welcome.

And I’m not saying racism didn’t exist where I came from, but it was way more open and accepted in Georgia. People referred to the poorer, predominately black areas of town as the “slave quarters”. We were once in a little “family” restaurant and when a black family came in, the (white) waitress disappeared for a while until the (black) chef came out to take the family’s order.

Unearned respect was paramount. I had a teacher who would call you up to the front of the class and painfully pinch a nerve in your shoulder every time you forgot to address him as “sir” in any interaction. So, yeah, fuck “southern gentility and hospitality”.

Conservatives tend to be more socially adept—or IME more conformist, manipulative, etc.—than liberals in general, so yeah, there’s a decent argument that conservatives can be superficially more pleasant, albeit always with an eye on their own standing or at least a positive presentation.  Doesn’t mean they’re nicer or kinder, or more altruistic, or even more loving… just that they are extremely attuned to both social niceties and their own social behavior.

Again, everybody’s experience is different, but I find that the conservatives I’m around now take every opportunity to aggressively remind everyone around them how put upon and tragic is the lot of a conservative in America today what with that sneaky Muslim Socialist in the white house. They count on the notions of politeness and respect to keep everyone silent because you’re not supposed to make a scene or start an argument or contradict an elder, or a boss, or anyone higher up on the social later than you (basically white guys) when they make some veiled racist dog whistle about the president out of nowhere.

The other thing I routinely encounter is people launching into religious proclamations that you’re expected to greet with the utmost respect and congratulate the speaker on their holiness, although I suspect that is not explicitly Southern.

Comment #42: Egnu Cledge  on  11/02  at  09:06 AM

That was supposed to be “social ladder”.

Comment #43: Egnu Cledge  on  11/02  at  09:08 AM

According to court filings, Carroll and Shaw said they were eating and drinking at the restaurant’s bar when they were repeatedly asked to give up their seats to White women. Both men declined, saying they weren’t finished eating. They noticed that no White men had been asked to get up and there were also several vacant seats at the bar. Atlanta police arrived at the restaurant 20 minutes later and escorted the two men off of the premises.

I hadn’t heard about this case, and found this bit in the Atlanta Examiner from April 2010.  There were empty seats available and no white men were asked to move.  That’s about as transparent as you can get, and the jury found no discrimination?!?!?  Reprehensible.

Comment #44: Blitzgal  on  11/02  at  09:51 AM

White men don’t give up their seats to pregnant women because pregnant women aren’t f***able.  If the purpose (as they see it) is to put the woman in their debt so she will be more likely to talk to them, then giving your seat to a pregnant woman is a no-benefit action, since she’s “taken”.

The details of the restaurant case seem pretty clear-cut as to the racist nature of the action.  When I hadn’t heard the details, I assumed the seated men were white, and the women were black, but again, that was before I read the article.  Either way, I assumed it was racial.  This is the legacy of the South, and the image that most of the rest of the world (I’m from the UK originally, and we have the same mental image of the Southern US) carries with them, thanks to the actions of the racists that are proud of their bigotry and assholishness. 

As for manners, a lot of the restrictions and behaviours of the “mannered” are designed to expose the outsider, not make people more comfortable.  All the little tricks of my pretentious and quasi-upper class relatives (especially my grandmother’s generation) are all about catching people out.  Who the hell cares which fork you use, and whether you put milk in your cup first (a deadly sin in my family)?  My experience of “chivalry” is similarly of being put at a disadvantage; an assumption that I cannot do things for myself puts me in social debt to the man who does those things for me, and often, along with the assumption that I am too delicate to open doors, comes the assumption that I am also unable to think.  The fact that these women forced the issue makes it very clear that they’re quite happy to sell out women to the greater “ideal” of enforcing racial superiority.

Comment #45: attack_laurel  on  11/02  at  10:25 AM

I grew up in Texas and never experienced this so-called Southern Gentility/Chivalry. Of course, maybe that was because I wasn’t white. I did however, experience a lot of name calling and exposure to racism.

As for the notion of Southern Hospitality, that may at one time have been a real thing, but I never experienced it in a big city.My sense is that hospitality is a pretty universal thing in many cultures, and that as we grow into bigger cities and people become more self-sufficient it falls by the wayside. Inviting a weary traveler to eat with you is literally a lifesaver in certain rural or undeveloped settings. The more people have, the less hospitality becomes a necessary social currency that tends to benefit everyone in the society.

My parents taught me Indian hospitality, which is very forceful. The arm-wrestling over the check at dinner, the aggressive requirement to return all dinner invitations with one of your own so that there is a never-ending spiral of dinner parties, the expectation that even casual acquaintances you knew 40 years ago put you up in their house or meet with you if you give them a call—that was all part of the deal. Now among the younger generation, I hardly ever see it. It’s just not necessary in our society like it was when my dad was growing up in India. When I try to offer such hospitality to others, they seem nonplussed or embarrassed, so I’ve stopped.

Comment #46: t-ster  on  11/02  at  11:05 AM

I’ve lived all my life in NC and have never, ever seen any third-party stranger ask a man to give his seat to a woman.

I’ve seen men offer their seats to women of their own accord. I’ve seen men get nudged by their friends (sometimes male friends, sometimes female friends), but that’s always been to offer their seat to an elderly or pregnant woman whose presence they hadn’t noticed. (This happens when the dude is sitting and his friends are standing; otherwise they’d offer their own seats.)

But it would be at best condescending for Man A to say to Man B “Hey, why don’t you offer your seat to Woman C?” And I wouldn’t be surprised if Man B took it as an insult. (Only possibly acceptable if Man A is much older than Man B and is assuming a grandfatherly role.) And to be honest, if I were Woman C, I’d probably be pissed as well. Because who is Man A to assert ownership over me and ask for seats on my behalf? What, you think I’m such a fragile little flower that I can’t stand up like everyone else? And you think I couldn’t ask for a seat myself if it was so important to me? (Only exception—if I was obviously ill and close to passing out, because in that situation I probably wouldn’t be able to ask for a seat, and it’s okay for strangers to help/protect someone who’s obviously ill.)

For the record, I at first envisioned white men, black women, and a bartender of indeterminate race, and assumed the white men wouldn’t give up their seats because they didn’t think black women counted when it came to “chivalry.”

Unpack that situation and it’s same shit, different angle.

Comment #47: snowmentality  on  11/02  at  11:15 AM

As for manners, a lot of the restrictions and behaviours of the “mannered” are designed to expose the outsider, not make people more comfortable.

Well, it’s not like you can just ask someone how much money they make or how much land they inherited from their grandparents. How else are you supposed to know what they’re worth?

Comment #48: junk science  on  11/02  at  11:15 AM

I was raised to give up my seats on public transit on the basis of elderly status, pregnancy, or physical disability.  I tend to follow this rule most of the time unless I am dead tired from working 12+ hour days or transporting large heavy items. 

The idea of offering a seat to someone of my age or younger….especially if they’re doing on the basis of flirtation or beauty is quite alien.  In my family, giving up one’s seat is meant as either a gesture of respect for the elderly and/or giving the seat to someone who could use it a lot more than one’s younger healthy self.  Granted, there’s quite a bit of Confucian influences in my conduct.

Comment #49: exholt  on  11/02  at  11:23 AM

I dislike the whole idea of one group being more or less hospitable than any other because, in my experience, it does totally depend on certain factors, mostly obviously whether you’re part of the in-group.  It goes for everywhere.  Countries that have the nicest people- people who will offer a bed in their house to a stranger, also have people who will shove you out of the way to be first on the bus.  Or places where, if you’re a white American, people fall over themselves to help you, but if you were, say Mexican, they’d call the police on you.  Maybe I’m just cynical, but I stopped trying to rank peoples on their niceness a long time ago.

Comment #50: Satanicpanic  on  11/02  at  11:42 AM

To the Crows

There’s so much sir-ing in the red districts now. It reeks of Dixie to me; I’m old enough to remember when only Texans and other atavistic fascists called people “sir” and “ma’am.

Comment #51: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/02  at  11:59 AM

@ Exholt @49 - I don’t know where you’re writing from, but those seem to be the rules here in NYC, too: give the seat to someone who needs it more than you.  Sometimes I’ll offer a seat that’s just opened up to an equally-healthy person (of either sex) because it feels a bit too unfriendly to just aggressively dive for an open seat, but there doesn’t seem to be a social convention for that.

Comment #52: Seraph  on  11/02  at  12:11 PM

Exholt & Sereph, that’s the group I was taught as well, in Spokane WA for buses.  The order was disabled first, with very pregnant or elderly plus disabled trumping minor disability.  I tried to get my kids to do the same.  My daughter does so consistantly, but my son tends to space off (it’s not rudeness so much as obliviousness though).

Comment #53: helen w. h.  on  11/02  at  01:16 PM

Seraph - the efficiency of NYC seat-giving always brings a smile to my face. 

I’ve seen every type of person (be it race, age, sex, well-dressedness, etc) offer a seat to a disabled or pregnant person just be getting up, body to the outside, and motioning to the free seat.

The funnest ones are when seven or so people move in an elaborate dance just so a kid can sit next to his mom, or two little girls can sit together. Real chivalry is when that random high-school kid cedes his seat and talks to his girlfriend from the aisle just so a four year old five seats down gets to sit next to her mom for a few minutes.

Comment #54: gorobei  on  11/02  at  02:20 PM

Seraph - the efficiency of NYC seat-giving always brings a smile to my face.

I’ve seen every type of person (be it race, age, sex, well-dressedness, etc) offer a seat to a disabled or pregnant person just be getting up, body to the outside, and motioning to the free seat.

The funnest ones are when seven or so people move in an elaborate dance just so a kid can sit next to his mom, or two little girls can sit together. Real chivalry is when that random high-school kid cedes his seat and talks to his girlfriend from the aisle just so a four year old five seats down gets to sit next to her mom for a few minutes.
Comment #54: gorobei on 11/02 at 02:20 PM

I think there’s a parallel in the NYC style of managing public space to the old phrase, “if you want something done, give it to a busy person.”  In some backwater town there’s time to decide if Sally Sue or Bobby Lee gets the seat and for everyone to have an opinion and it to be all weighed out in public or private or some combination thereof.  NYC doesn’t have the time to fuck around with those things, just get it done now.

People think New York is full of rudeness, but really, if you’re standing in the middle of the sidewalk and someone tells you to get the fuck over to the side, it’s because YOU are holding up literally hundreds of people who are trying to walk there.  That’s rude.  If a horn is honking it’s generally because someone’s not paying attention, *and needs to*.  It’s liberating, democracy in action.

Comment #55: oldfeminist  on  11/02  at  02:34 PM

To the Crows

  There’s so much sir-ing in the red districts now. It reeks of Dixie to me; I’m old enough to remember when only Texans and other atavistic fascists called people “sir” and “ma’am.

Comment #51: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein on 11/02 at 11:59 AM

Thanks for that link, good reading. 

Reminds me of how, on COPS, if the officer is describing a man walking down the street who gets assaulted, he’s referred to as “this man” or “this guy.”  A man running down the street naked cursing the police is almost always referred to as “this gentleman.”

I think there’s some kind of word juju about “reminding him he’s supposed to be acting like a gentleman” involved sometimes.  Of course it never works, the sarcasm is never veiled.

Comment #56: oldfeminist  on  11/02  at  02:45 PM

oldfeminist, not only am I of a certain age, I can remember 20-odd years ago explaining to a young lady who was born and raised in Mobile, AL, that, yes, we were polite in California without ma’am or siring anyone, and I can usually tell the young folks who from back East living here because they ‘sir’ me at the drop of a hat.

Reminds me of how, on COPS, if the officer is describing a man walking down the street who gets assaulted, he’s referred to as “this man” or “this guy.”  A man running down the street naked cursing the police is almost always referred to as “this gentleman.”

Sir Robert Peel believed that police should function as being part of the people, not distinct from them as in this country.

Comment #57: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/02  at  03:31 PM

I always tell people that in the South, you can say anything you want about anyone as long as you follow it with “Bless his/her heart.”

You know, I could take or leave Southern gentility, but the thing about this meme is that it’s usually wrong. When people in the South/Texas say this, they are usually sincere. That’s right, most of the time they mean it! That’s the whole reason it can be employed as a passive-aggressive thing. If it exclusively meant “what a loser”, it would cease to have a passive-aggressive function.

Comment #58: brandon  on  11/02  at  03:38 PM

  attack laurel: I’m technically a white man and I’ve given up my seat on the subway to practically every sort of person I can think of. Pregnant women, young women, old women, old men, young men, children, and disabled people. Its the polite thing to do. I might be a bit of an outliner but some of us do exist.

Comment #59: Lee  on  11/02  at  03:51 PM

51-

On the other hand, when I deal with sales staff, I refuse to give my first name, and insist on being addressed as “Mr. surname” or “sir.”

Comment #60: James  on  11/02  at  04:04 PM

  attack laurel: I’m technically a white man and I’ve given up my seat on the subway to practically every sort of person I can think of. Pregnant women, young women, old women, old men, young men, children, and disabled people. Its the polite thing to do. I might be a bit of an outliner but some of us do exist.

Yes, there are lots of us outliers, and apparently all commenting on this thread. But we are outliers, and our existence does not disprove the main point, which is still that young white guys are the least likely to give up their seats to people who clearly need it more than we do.

I know that the only thing that would prevent me from giving it up is being spaced out, but generally I’m really only too happy to stand. Last time I was in Canada (don’t take transit here in Okinawa, because it is inadequate and expensive - not even a bus that goes by my workplace, and my car is cheaper to run) I had a desk job. Sitting all day, and sitting down to get to my job? No, thanks.

And all of this doesn’t matter because while you and I may be two young white guys who give up their seats to pregnant women, the bulk of our demographic doesn’t. Nobody really cares that we do.

Comment #61: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  11/02  at  06:25 PM

It’s impossible to tell just by appearances who needs a seat and who doesn’t.  So nobody gets cookies and medals for giving up seats to pregnant women and visibly disabled people.

This is actually a real problem for people with invisible disabilities, and for those with visible disabilities but in different ways.  People who look normal can have fibryomalgia, chronic pain, or even just sore legs from a really strenuous workout the previous day.  And some people don’t necessarily want your help even if they look like it.  Sometimes it’s just easier, faster, or more convenient to remain standing for 15 minutes than to sit down and get back up again.  Or sometimes pregnant women just don’t want to sit down because they’ve been sitting in an office all day.  In other cases of “chivalry” like opening doors or picking up things, many people with long-term disabilities have already figured out ways to manage, and “helping” could just get in the way.  And of course there’s the possibility that a woman who looks pregnant is just fat.

So the better thing to do in cases like this is ask the person if they want your help.  Being presumptuous is never polite.  And if someone declines your offer, for the love of god, respect their choice.

I am occasionally offered a seat just because I’m a white woman, and I rarely want it.  And plenty of times a man will offer, I will decline, he will stand up anyway, I will remain standing, and then it’s extremely awkward until one of us gets off.  It’s irritating enough that I take the bus less often than I would otherwise.  Respecting what people say is the way to be genuinely polite.

The concept of chivalry in general can die in a fire.  The people who want it the most are the people who would never have originally been involved with it.  It was originally a code for knights and it only applied to how they treated other high-status people.  Commoner women would have had to open their own doors and would have been expected to stay out of the chivalrous man’s way so he wouldn’t have to bother acknowledging her.  It’s based on a classist tradition and I will be glad when it’s gone completely.

Comment #62: bananacat  on  11/02  at  06:40 PM

I’m technically a white man and I’ve given up my seat on the subway to practically every sort of person I can think of.

Uh, why bother taking a seat at all, then? That way, all those other people (which you list as covering every possible person but you) will get a seat, and you won’t have to make a big show about giving it up?

The standard etiquette is to give up a seat by the door for the old, disabled, or pregant. Possibly also to engage in some seat-shuffling to allow children to sit with parents. If your rule is “I give up my seat for everyone,” then it sounds like you’d be better off not bothering to sit.

Comment #63: Tyro  on  11/02  at  06:49 PM

I’m not sure I understand the “chivalry” aspect of the lawsuit.  If I give up my seat to a woman who looks as if she can use it more than I, if I hold the door for someone whose hands are full, if I help someone get her roll-away bag up the steps of the bus or train, those are all things that I’ve done on my own volition for whatever satisfaction I get out of doing them.  But I’m the one who is making the decision to do it, or, if for some reason or no reason, I don’t do it.

But this case was the bar forcing the men to give up their seats.  How is that chivalrous?  Who is being chivalrous there?  Not the men who don’t give up the seats.  And not the bar, which is not actually giving up anything of its own by forcing the men to give up the seats.  This sounds like a simple sex discrimination case, men have to give up their seats for women for no rational reason.  So, either there must be quite a bit more going on than in the OP, or the plaintiffs must have had really bad lawyers, or the judge was completely off-base.  I’m thinking it’s the last one.

And the South being more genteel than the North?  Give me a fucking break.

Comment #64: Iam138  on  11/02  at  07:08 PM

@ Exholt @49 - I don’t know where you’re writing from, but those seem to be the rules here in NYC, too: give the seat to someone who needs it more than you.  Sometimes I’ll offer a seat that’s just opened up to an equally-healthy person (of either sex) because it feels a bit too unfriendly to just aggressively dive for an open seat, but there doesn’t seem to be a social convention for that.

I am writing from NYC….where I was born and raised.  smile

and I can usually tell the young folks who from back East living here because they ‘sir’ me at the drop of a hat.

I don’t know anyone who does that as a native-born NYC resident other than some sheltered Upper East Side former private school kiddies at my high school and a few obnoxious obsequious brownnosers beneath everyone else’s contempt. 

Personally, I find the Southern tendency to use “Sir/Ma’am” to be quite grating as I feel that’s not only an artifact of antebellum feudal social norms…but also how it encourages the rendering of respect that’s UNEARNED and thus, UNMERITED. 

Only times I’ve used Sir/Ma’am is when I’m rendering friendly-spirited sarcasm to friends and genuine respect for acquaintances who had some noteworthy academic/professional/public service achievements. 

Incidentally, I’d never use “Sir/Ma’am” with family as that would actually be rude as it is far too formal/distant and thus, implies I’m viewing them as strangers/acquaintances…not family.  It seems to be a Chinese/Confucian thing.

Comment #65: exholt  on  11/02  at  10:14 PM

I’m from the South - born, raised, never lived anywhere but - and the ideas of “Southern gentility” and “Southerns are more polite and/or friendlier than anyone else in the world” has never, ever rung true to me. I’m from deep, rural Mississippi, which is often less “y’all come sit a spell” and more “you ain’t from around here, are ya, boy?” We’re friendly to people we know and if we’re at all polite to you flat-landers, it’s ‘cause we want you the fuck away from us as soon as possible. Growing up in the middle of it, I didn’t recognize it until I wandered around the state as a teenager, and I really didn’t grasp the implications until I moved away and came back for visits, especially after letting my freak flag fly.

I live in New Orleans now, and this is an interesting town inre: this whole Southern hospitality thing. It’s a friendly town, but one definitely has to put in some effort to actually be accepted. This is especially ringing true in my new neighborhood, Algiers Point. Nice folks, they’ll help when asked, but they won’t come knocking on my door with a fruit basket, I think.

However, I do fit the stereotype of a “polite country boy”. I call everyone “sir” or “ma’am”, regardless of whether I’m “supposed to” or not, and if I’m paying attention to the world outside my head at the moment, do the whole “give up my seat” and “hold the door” sort of thing when I deem appropriate, and set my own standards for when it is appropriate. Part of it is upbringing. My folks made a big deal about showing everyone respect and courtesy regardless, mainly because I was taught it reflected on me more than anything else. Right or wrong, that stuck.

Plus, as a fairly easy-going cat and an incredibly lazy human being, I’ve found life’s just much easier this way. Being a jackass is too much work. One’s mileage, of course, may and most often does vary, however, and I claim no wisdom on this stroke.

Never trust someone who calls himself a “Southern gentleman”. That’s a guy that’ll cause headaches somewhere down the line.

Comment #66: Matt T.  on  11/02  at  10:46 PM

I don’t know anyone who does that as a native-born NYC resident other than some sheltered Upper East Side former private school kiddies at my high school and a few obnoxious obsequious brownnosers beneath everyone else’s contempt

Except I should’ve specified “SouthEast”, the NYCers and the like can be distinguished by their brusqueness and lack of manners, as well as taking this New Yorker cover seriously.

Comment #67: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/02  at  10:50 PM

Plus, as a fairly easy-going cat and an incredibly lazy human being, I’ve found life’s just much easier this way. Being a jackass is too much work. One’s mileage, of course, may and most often does vary, however, and I claim no wisdom on this stroke.

Funny.  I actually find it much easier to be blunt and rude to those I don’t feel genuine respect/friendliness towards. 

Being polite to those demanding unearned respect is exhausting and soul-crushing IME. 

Except I should’ve specified “SouthEast”, the NYCers and the like can be distinguished by their brusqueness and lack of manners, as well as taking this New Yorker cover seriously.

As Oldfeminist puts it in #55, that very brusqueness and “lack of manners” is actually a form of unvarnished democracy and equality of sorts in action when someone’s acting stupidly or is an overentitled jackass like those who insistently demand automatic public demonstrations of respect for merely existing. 

It is especially amusing to watch when it occurs in the form of “punching up” such as when a working-class POC subway passenger dresses down and puts an obnoxiously overentitled White upper-middle class Wall Street I-banker in his place….complete with applause from the rest of the crowded subway car.

Comment #68: exholt  on  11/02  at  11:49 PM

<i>As Oldfeminist puts it in #55, that very brusqueness and “lack of manners” is actually a form of unvarnished democracy and equality of sorts in action when someone’s acting stupidly or is an overentitled jackass like those who insistently demand automatic public demonstrations of respect for merely existing.<i>

I’ve seen the brusqueness and lack of manners exhibited when there were none of the ‘triggers’ you mention in my observations of such folks, the term ‘fish out of water’ comes to mind.

I remember when I was going to school in St. Louis, I overheard the following in the bookstore:

“Hey, they carry today’s NY Times here.”

“Yeah, but it’s only the one that’s printed in Chicago, not the real NYT.”

Comment #69: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/03  at  12:00 AM

New Yorkers get dinged for “lack of manners” for doing things like brushing right past those standing in the middle of the sidewalk or actively jostling someone who tries to get on the subway before other people get out. Or the fact that people don’t act “friendly” to each other on buses and subways. As exholt points out, it is more about New Yorkers’ need to get going where they’re going. New York is so crowded that if you don’t give people their space (emotional and physical), no one will ever have any.

I actually find it much easier to be blunt and rude to those I don’t feel genuine respect/friendliness towards

Um. That’s not from being a New Yorker. New Yorkers are unfailingly helpful and friendly. They just dont dress it up with lots of flowery time-wasting ornamentation. Social skills, on the other hand, are learned and practiced, and if you go through your early adulthood trying to cultivate some kind of standoffish punk rock anti-bourgeois demeanor, it stays with you, making it difficult for you later to act out middle class norms. Your grandmother was right, metaphorically, when she said, “if you make that face, it will stay that way.”

I’ve seen the brusqueness and lack of manners exhibited when there were none of the ‘triggers’ you mention in my observations of such folks, the term ‘fish out of water’ comes to mind.

Outside of NYC, New Yorkers have a stubborn provincialism-cum-snobbishness regarding what kind of amenities they have available to them in their hometown that they can’t get elsewhere. Stereotypically, it involves complaints about bagel quality or how they prefer whatever brand they can only find at Dean & Deluca. On the other hand, if you’re from out of town visiting NYC, and you want something from home, New York almost invariably has it, somewhere, from someplace that specializes in that, and it’s very good.

Comment #70: Tyro  on  11/03  at  01:33 AM

I don’t find it reassuring , except that it means I’m not imagining it; however, it’s good to know so that I can recognize it more readily when I see it.

Comment #71: helen w. h.  on  11/03  at  08:09 AM

Or: Some people are really polite and nice (Mis Manners polite of making people comfortable) but many are the opposite with what is polite being a social manners marker thing in order to know who to snub.  I appreciate and value the former and find the later contemptable and something to be on guard against.  Knowing that it is a real thing, so as to not feel paranoid, has a value as well that is partially reassurance.

Comment #72: helen w. h.  on  11/03  at  08:13 AM

Um. That’s not from being a New Yorker. New Yorkers are unfailingly helpful and friendly. They just dont dress it up with lots of flowery time-wasting ornamentation. Social skills, on the other hand, are learned and practiced, and if you go through your early adulthood trying to cultivate some kind of standoffish punk rock anti-bourgeois demeanor, it stays with you, making it difficult for you later to act out middle class norms. Your grandmother was right, metaphorically, when she said, “if you make that face, it will stay that way.”

New Yorkers are helpful and friendly provided the person in question also returns the favor in equal measure and is not behaving in a stupid/high-handed manner towards them. 

What you refer to as “standoffish punk rock anti-bourgeois demeanor” is actually a variant of “doesn’t suffer fools gladly”.  Nearly every instance of New York rudeness from the perspective of non-locals is either due to not being used to the abruptness of being in an “always in a hurry to get somewhere” type city or more often…because the person in question provoked it by acting like an overentitled jackass or doing something stupid like suddenly stopping in the middle of a sidewalk/pathway and thus, blocking dozens of people trying to get to their destination.

Comment #73: exholt  on  11/03  at  09:57 AM

Nearly every instance of New York rudeness from the perspective of non-locals is either due to not being used to the abruptness of being in an “always in a hurry to get somewhere” type city or more often…because…

I wouldn’t go quite that far.  The NYC area has its share of people who are rude, etc., simply because they are a******s.  In fact, I’d say there are more of them per square mile in the NYC area than in other places in the USA—if only because there are more people per square mile in the area than elsewhere.

On the other hand, there are also more helpful people per square mile, and more generous people per square mile, etc.

There’s less superficial politeness, especially to random strangers, simply because if you tried to be polite to everybody the way I was raised to be polite in the Ante-Bellum South (that’s how I refer to the place I grew up in Virginia), you’d never have time for anything else.  But if they think you aren’t just trying to scam them, people are remarkably willing to talk to and help strangers—for instance, all you have to do is stand on a sidewalk looking at a map and look puzzled, and people will ask if you need directions.

Comment #74: AMM  on  11/03  at  10:39 AM

Another problem that outsiders face in NYC is that if you try to lead up to a question with an explanation you’re immediately assumed to be a timewaster at best, con at worst.  “Where’s 42nd street from here” could get a response, “I’m lost and I came here from Atlanta and boy are the streets confusing and crowded and…” by that time your New Yorker has walked away.

The famed “What time is it—none of your business” refers not to being rude but not slowing down and showing your watch to a potential mugger.

That doesn’t mean there aren’t overentitled jackasses who are also New York natives.  They can be just as guilty of not understanding the context outside of NYC as outsiders anywhere.

Comment #75: oldfeminist  on  11/03  at  10:47 AM

Another problem that outsiders face in NYC is that if you try to lead up to a question with an explanation you’re immediately assumed to be a timewaster at best, con at worst.  “Where’s 42nd street from here” could get a response, “I’m lost and I came here from Atlanta and boy are the streets confusing and crowded and…” by that time your New Yorker has walked away.

I’m not sure this tendency is restricted to New Yorkers. 

I’ve seen plenty of Profs from the Midwest and Southern states who have politely and not so politely asked students and the greater public to basically “get to the point and ask the damned question already” because they’re worried the person’s lead up explanation will end up becoming a 20-30 minute ramble that would deprive other students/public audience members a chance to participate/ask questions. 

Not an invalid fear, unfortunately as I’ve witnessed students/people who went on 20-30 minute rambles in an academic setting because the Prof/instructor in question was inexperienced and/or obsequiously polite and the rambler either didn’t know how to get to the point and/or loved to hear his/her own voice.

Comment #76: exholt  on  11/03  at  11:15 AM

I’ve seen plenty of Profs from the Midwest and Southern states who have politely and not so politely asked students and the greater public to basically “get to the point and ask the damned question already” because they’re worried the person’s lead up explanation will end up becoming a 20-30 minute ramble that would deprive other students/public audience members a chance to participate/ask questions. 
Not an invalid fear, unfortunately as I’ve witnessed students/people who went on 20-30 minute rambles in an academic setting because the Prof/instructor in question was inexperienced and/or obsequiously polite and the rambler either didn’t know how to get to the point and/or loved to hear his/her own voice.

Your anecdote was completely out of context to oldfeminists’ point which, if I may give you some instructions in social graces was about this: in certain “etiquette based” cultures, strangers feel a need to “build rapport” before asking a question, thus why some people might begin with, “I am visiting from Atlanta and…” In NYC, the “don’t waste my time/try to sell me a con” attitude is taken to be a certain brusqueness because they don’t need to establish any personal relationship/rapport with someone before they’re willing to answer a question.

A good contrast to this is Paris, where it’s considered impolite to walk into a shop and abruptly ask to buy something. Instead you wish the proprietor a good day, exchange niceties, and then order something.

I actually find it much easier to be blunt and rude to those I don’t feel genuine respect/friendliness towards. 

Please stop assuming that this is some aspect of being a New Yorker. it is not. it is just you.

Comment #77: Tyro  on  11/03  at  11:54 AM

I’ve interacted with polite conservatives and rude conservatives.  The difference was generally either total personal preference (“I prefer to be polite”) or the realization that they could get more by being polite.  Not that there’s anything wrong with that, since that’s exactly the difference between polite liberals and rude liberals.

I have noticed that conservatives all do “kiss up kick down.”  Is that uncivil?

Comment #78: Punditus Maximus  on  11/03  at  03:11 PM

And yeah, I have fibromyalgia, so I give up seats on good days and keep them on bad days.  Please try not to judge.

Comment #79: Punditus Maximus  on  11/03  at  03:13 PM

I think it’s more polite to ask the question first and built rapport during the explanation.  It saves time and provides smalltalk for the awkward helping phase.

Comment #80: Crissa  on  11/03  at  06:20 PM

Re: Comment #44: Blitzgal on 11/02 at 09:51 AM

Thanks for finding that report.  That makes this far more clear.

Comment #81: Crissa  on  11/03  at  07:20 PM

Uh, why bother taking a seat at all, then?

I guess you’ve never been yelled at for not taking a seat.

Comment #82: Crissa  on  11/03  at  07:35 PM

I do think it’s interesting that two white guys mentioned they will give up seats if they’re not just totally distracted and in their own worlds.  Male privilege to not have to pay attention to your surroundings when you’re on public transportation.

Comment #83: oldfeminist  on  11/03  at  09:00 PM

in certain “etiquette based” cultures, strangers feel a need to “build rapport” before asking a question, thus why some people might begin with, “I am visiting from Atlanta and…” In NYC, the “don’t waste my time/try to sell me a con” attitude is taken to be a certain brusqueness because they don’t need to establish any personal relationship/rapport with someone before they’re willing to answer a question.

Couple of issues.  One is a “proper time and place” issue.  Telling meandering stories is great when one is among friends/family or one is in a relaxed venue like a hangout.  Spending 5+ minutes on a meandering ramble before getting to the “asking the actual question” point in public may not go over so well if you end up holding up the person in question or worse…blocking the sidewalk/walkway and thus, impede dozens of other New Yorkers/tourists trying to get on about their business. 

Second is whether that is actually an effective way to build good rapport with most people…especially New Yorkers. 

IME, Crissa at @81 has nailed it when she said:

I think it’s more polite to ask the question first and built rapport during the explanation.  It saves time and provides smalltalk for the awkward helping phase.

EXACTLY!

Moreover, I know no one who feel someone who goes on a long meandering conversation before getting to the main point was trying to build rapport. 

In every case that I’ve witnessed whether it is in the NE or the Midwest….someone who communicates like that example is taken in the following ways: a foreigner/recent immigrant struggling with the language, someone who loves the sound of their own voice, an inconsiderate chatterbox, and/or someone who has issues organizing & communicating his/her thoughts. 

The first tends to apologize profusely throughout the session whereas the latter three tend to either be oblivious and/or feel they have the right to demand undivided attention from their prevailing audience….regardless of the venue or whether members of that audience have more pressing engagements to attend to. 

One college classmate tends to fit into #2 and 4 and wondered why no one wants to give him directions when he’s lost and why nearly everyone in his grad department was giving him the cold shoulder, cutting him off, and sometimes even telling him to STFU.  Took a while for me and some other college classmates to clue him in on how his tendency towards 20-30 minute meandering monologues in any setting is a big turnoff to nearly everyone.

Comment #84: exholt  on  11/03  at  09:49 PM

I guess you’ve never been yelled at for not taking a seat.

Check the context of what I wrote. My question wasn’t asking why women bother to take a seat offered to them. It was about why Lee, a man, sits a down on the subway in the first place if he “gives up his seat to just about everyone” as though he’s some kind of equal opportunity seat-offerer. In which case, I argued that if he feels everyone else is so much more deserving of a seat than he is, it’s probably a better idea not to sit down on the subway instead of making a big show about how generous he is about giving up his seat for every rider who steps on.

Comment #85: Tyro  on  11/04  at  12:29 AM

I give up my seat to just about everyone, too.

But I sit down first, if there’s a seat.  I’ve been yelled at for standing when I could’ve sat.

Comment #86: Crissa  on  11/04  at  03:50 AM

#84: Spacing out is what you do when standing on a bus. What else is there to do? You can’t read or play a video game, and looking at other passengers is rude and dangerous (Do not make eye contact is the first rule of Bus Club). I’m more annoyed at not being able to read/computer/video game while standing than by actually standing.

Comment #87: Mark Temporis  on  11/04  at  08:35 AM

Tyro:  it’s kind of weird you have an opinion of other people’s approach to sitting down, or otherwise, on the subway.  Don’t you think?

Comment #88: Ape Man  on  11/04  at  10:13 AM

Tyro:  it’s kind of weird you have an opinion of other people’s approach to sitting down, or otherwise, on the subway.  Don’t you think?

On a thread on etiquette, it’s not weird at all to have opinions on issues of etiquette, especially when someone is trying to play the “I am such a unique and previous etiquette snowflake” card.

Comment #89: Tyro  on  11/05  at  04:02 AM
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