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Next entry: Music Fridays: Garage Rock Party Edition Previous entry: Two more reasons to be a curmudgeonly childless marriage boycotter

Sponge Bob subverting ego ciphering of Fox News devotees

Media Matters has a report on the newest lie machine faux scandal being pumped by Fox News: the claim that the Department of Education is using Sponge Bob Squarepants to tell kids about global warming without telling them that it's "controversial", which is a little like being mad that the school teachers are telling kids that two plus two equals four when some cranks in a basement say it actually equals five.  I'm really unsure how you would even introduce the "controversy" to the age group that likes Sponge Bob.  How do you convey that there's scientific consensus on an issue, but that there's also a media-manufactured controversy fueled by people who present themselves like experts, but who aren't actually experts?  What Fox News is suggesting, of course, is that we don't do that but just instead lie to kids the way they lie to you.  

And what's interesting is that this sort of thing might have traction.  The underlying assumption here is that parents have a right to have everyone else conspire to keep information from their children that could, once absorbed by the children, make them realize that for all their parents' blather about "family values", they literally care so little for their children's future that they're willing to destroy the planet they leave to their children just so they can air condition buildings to sweater temperatures and drive oversized status symbol cars.  And a lot of people buy that assumption!  In fact, one of the sacrosanct values of American culture is our belief that children are basically ciphers for parental egos, and parents have an overriding right to feed their kids all sorts of bullshit and even, at times, withhold necessary medical care because they've got some kind of quirky religious or New Age belief that their magic is better for them.  I think a lot of people would really get mad if you said that parents actually shouldn't have a right, for instance, to tell their kid whatever political lies they want and then proceed to shield them from facts.  

Which isn't to say I'm against the notion that parents should have control over their children.  But I construe that as a responsibility, not a right.  Children are just people who haven't really had a lot of experience dealing with the negative consequences of poor choices, and so parents are there to force them to make better choices until they grow up and accumulate enough experience that they can start making their own mistakes, and then some time around 30, they finally grow up.  But people have taken what should be a responsibility---making your kid do their homework, making them go to the doctor, making them eat their vegetables---and have determined that this level of control is actually a right.  A right to shape your child in your own ego-driven image, which we as a country euphemize with terms like "teaching values".  But a lot of the time you aren't actually teaching a kid values!  A lot of the "values" that get taught are not values at all, as evidenced by Fox News calling parent rights on teaching kids to squander our limited resources on the only planet we've got.

Not sure how to resolve this problem, since we have to give parents power over their children, and power is known to corrupt.  But I do somehow think that Facebook encouraging more sonogram pictures with the "Expected: Child" option isn't making things any better. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:58 AM • (66) Comments

There are shows I don’t let my kid watch for a variety of reasons. I guess if I thought SpongeBob was indoctrinating my kid in a belief system I didn’t share, I could, um, not let them watch SpongeBob. As it is, I’m considering banning it because it’s annoying as fuck.

To me, the issue isn’t so much a question of how much control parents should have (deciding what your kid watches on TV is well within the appropriate scope), as it is conservatives expecting the world to never force them to confront anything they don’t like. They accuse liberals of wanting a nanny state, but they are the ones who really want to be protected.

Comment #1: chingona  on  08/04  at  09:34 AM

Not sure how to resolve this problem, since we have to give parents power over their children, and power is known to corrupt.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and there is no power more absolute than that of a parent over a child… Plus, people’s decision-making goes completely to pot on any subject they have a strong emotional investment in. This is why I came to the conclusion (at around age 8, IIRC) that parents are absolutely the worst people to involve decisions about education.

Comment #2: Dunc  on  08/04  at  09:40 AM

Wow, that Facebook thingy *really* bugs you, huh?

But anyway, parents exist in a sort of perpetual anxiety-vortex, caused by the fact that they are constantly bombarded with stories about ways they can ruin their children forever, and probably already have, and also ways that other people are going to hurt/damage their kids. 

And of course, conservative parents have a slightly different vortex than liberal ones. Liberals worry about things like teaching their kids not to be racist and sexist assholes, and making sure they get a good education, and learn how to think critically.

Conservatives believe that children are born pure little angels with a regrettable tendency to sin and your job as a parent is to keep them pure by locking them into a sort of Righteousness Force Field. If you’re lucky, they’ll stay pure all the way through teenagerhood and then marry young, taking the responsibility off your hands.  One of the things that keeps them pure is not letting in any messages that Those Liberals would want them to hear, like the one about global warming, or pollution being bad, or guns killing people, or what have you. Thus, the demands that teachers be censored. Because the Force Field is very fragile, and the more messages a child gets from beyond it, the more likely it is to fail.

Comment #3: emjaybee  on  08/04  at  10:09 AM

This is another excellent example of Reichwing Projection.  They assume that, because Faux’s sole purpose for being is to function as a wingnut propaganda machine, everyone on the other side of the political spectrum is doing the same thing.

Sorry you sick fucks, besides whatever benefits the planet might get from turning off lights and taking other measures to reduce energy use/waste, those things also save money.  You know, that stuff you and the people you represent are completely obsessed over?  Moola, greenbacks, scratch, dough?  And they make good, common, sense.

Actual conservatives, people who were frugal, thoughtful, and full of common sense, would applaud the the sort of thinking that saves money, as well as the environment they live in.  But those people are gone. 

Today’s “conservatives” are nothing more than stormtroopers in the service of the oligarchy, determined to make sure their masters get all they want — which is everything, everywhere.  We’re just a few notches above the serfs oligarchs wish we still were, and that represents progress in the wrong direction for the modern-day’s market royalty.

This downward slide will only end when the whole country is populated by sharecroppers barely eking out a minimal existence, living in filth and decay, choking on dirty air, swallowing dirty water, eating tainted food.  Ruled over by gold-plated dukes and duchesses, kings and queens, princes and princesses — who are guarded and attended to by legions prole-ish capos, who sold out the rest of us to get a couple dollars more.

Is this a great country or what?  Somalia, here we come!...

Comment #4: MikeEss  on  08/04  at  10:10 AM

I think this post really gets to the heart of the psychology behind a lot of the problems we’ve been facing lately; a kind of horrible mixture of American exceptionalism and privilege and small-mindedness and a kind of social OCD… I read that thing about Breitbart in the New Yorker and I was really struck by how after his years of debauchery he said he suddenly wanted to “live by the rules”, which struck me as so bizzare yet at the same time I could recall myself at 12 years old thinking the same thing - That the world is an ordered place and surely, *surely* there must be a right way for everyone to behave and if only we stick to it everything will work out fine for everybody.  But now I’m 28 and read way too many books than is good for me, and I know how incredibly childish that kind of thinking is.

Speaking of which, I just now added to my facebook profile “Expected 12/31/2012: Antichrist” so I guess there’s an upside.

Comment #5: Frogisis  on  08/04  at  10:14 AM

Speaking of ultrasound pictures on Facebook…what is up with posting 3-D ultrasound pics from the end of the first trimester? No, your little blob of barely differentiated protoplasm IS NOT YET CUTE! Please wait til closer to term before expecting people to coo over it.

Sorry, my best friend is pregnant and I’ve been holding that in for a few days, watching people comment on how adorable this blob-that-sort-of-resembles-a-baby-rat is. Whew. I feel better now…

Comment #6: wednesdayaddams  on  08/04  at  10:24 AM

I’m really unsure how you would even introduce the “controversy” to the age group that likes Sponge Bob.  How do you convey that there’s scientific consensus on an issue, but that there’s also a media-manufactured controversy fueled by people who present themselves like experts, but who aren’t actually experts?

I was born in 1978 and by about 10 I’d managed to absorb from my folks the fact that there was a person in the White House who just might start a nuclear war with the Russians (I remember asking if when the Russians hit the air force base nearish to our town whether the fireball would get us or the radiation) and another person in the Vatican who thought that my mom wasn’t good enough to be a priest. (Being my mother, she referred to His Holiness at ‘That g.d. old sexist.’ My sister has since taught her to curse.)

Comment #7: witless chum  on  08/04  at  10:26 AM

The childhood indoctrination theme is as strong as it is nutty. Santorum was talking about this other day as a reason that government funding of early childhood education is a bad thing.
http://caucuses.desmoinesregister.com/2011/08/02/santrorum-calls-early-education-programs-an-effort-to-indoctrinate-your-children/

Comment #8: davematson  on  08/04  at  10:27 AM

Sorry you sick fucks, besides whatever benefits the planet might get from turning off lights and taking other measures to reduce energy use/waste, those things also save money.  You know, that stuff you and the people you represent are completely obsessed over?  Moola, greenbacks, scratch, dough?  And they make good, common, sense.

Hippie-punching is way more satisfying than saving money. I have a friend who was raised republican and has since rebelled, but still feels the siren’s call to hippie-punch. He’s also really… well, “thrifty” is the nice word for it. wink Anyhow, my husband and I are currently doing a major renovation to put in a backyard patio that we didn’t have before, and part of the process involves rebuilding retaining walls. And retaining walls mean drainage issues (which, in this soggy part of the country is no joke). I plan to create a planter garden on the patio, so I thought to have the drainage route into a rain barrel we’ve buried underneath the patio, and then we’re going to have an old-fashioned iron hand-pump to draw the water back up out of the rain barrel so it can be used to water the flowers in the planters. When I told this to my friend, he didn’t applaud that I’ve found an innovative way to save money on my water bills, he instead decided to tease me for being a hippie. So yeah. If it costs you an extra $20-30/month on your electric bill, people don’t give a shit about that because that $20/30 gives them a warm fuzzy feeling because liberals they don’t even know would be pissed off if they knew.

Comment #9: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/04  at  10:27 AM

Frogisis: I, too, have been surprised to hear adults come to conclusions that I had as a child.  Your Breitbart example reminds me of confirmation class, which is kind of the same “time to grow up” point.

I’ve had childhood friends grow up to be like caricatures of their parents.  In some cases it makes me wonder if the parents are ultimately happy with that, like “What have I done?”

Comment #10: ganews_  on  08/04  at  10:34 AM

Being a breeder, I have no problem with an “expecting” option on Facebook.  I know I felt like a mother long before I gave birth.  I was working hard gestating, and the little guy kicking me wasn’t some mythical entity.  We had a scare that turned out to be nothing, but had I lost that fetus, I would have felt real grief.  Yes, I named him in utero, and had he died there, I never could have reused the name.

My husband?  Never thought the kids were real until they were born.  We still feel the same way about the pregnancies, so it’s yet another situation where we look at each other and think “you’re stupid” simultaneously.

what I find creepy about the expecting thing is that you can put pictures on it.  I can’t do that for my ‘real’ kids.  I assumed that it was like the rest of the Family settings and the pictures only appear when the kids get their own accounts, but if the fetus can get one, why can’t the kids?

I remember being a small child in the 70s as the commercials opining “We mind very much if you smoke” from the American Lung Association came out.  I like the one where the dolphin stole the cigarette from the smoker’s mouth.  And then I never failed to harass my father to stop smoking.

I suppose my dad could have banned TV and insisted smoking was a cure for asthma.  It’s scary to think we’ve got 27% of the country that is basically doing just that.  If arguing from reality and truth doesn’t matter, and we’ve stopped teaching kids how to reason, then how much longer do we really have?

Comment #11: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/04  at  10:53 AM

Haven’t posted ultrasound pics on facebook as 90% of the population can barely make out what they’re seeing in those photos and that is pretty annoying. I had to get an ultrasound this morning and even at 8 months gestation, I’m still sure I will have to explain to my husband what exactly he’s seeing.

Anyway. Husband was raised in one of these fundie households and what pisses me is that his parents will sometimes harp on the fact that he no longer goes to church (and never will again) but don’t emphasize the kind, fair, decent, hardworking man he’s become. Really, if you’re trying to teach your kid values, be glad when they grow up to be a caring, responsible, wonderful person and stop harping on the fact that they aren’t just like you. When I see the people who have followed the fundie lead in his hometown, I am truly not impressed as so many of them seem to have problems staying committed to one partner, paying child support or voting their own economic self interests.

Comment #12: serious bette  on  08/04  at  10:55 AM

Had me until the last paragraph.  Drawing the connection between the Facebook thing and the thesis of the article doesn’t really work.

This dynamic is as old as the hills, and summarized pithily in the parents’ lament in “Bye, Bye Birdie” - “Why can’t they be like we were, perfect in ev’ry way?  What’s the matter with kids today?”  And every generation goes through this thing where there’s moral panic about the fact that kids are turning out with different values and beliefts than their parents, and the search for a scapegoat, whether it’s comic books, video games, Communists, gays, biology teachers, or whatever.  The difference now is the increasing ability to isolate oneself from influences that might challenge one’s worldview thanks, ironically, to the very technology that was supposed to open a world of information. 

Comment #13: jeevmon  on  08/04  at  10:57 AM

How do you convey that there’s scientific consensus on an issue, but that there’s also a media-manufactured controversy fueled by people who present themselves like experts, but who aren’t actually experts?

I can easily imagine a cartoon doing exactly this. They would just introduce a wacko character who blurts out all sorts of nonsense explanations to deny things that all the other characters can see clearly.  I don’t know any of Spongebob’s characters, but I gather it’s a cartoon with a subversive undercurrent already.

Comment #14: Cris (without an H)  on  08/04  at  11:16 AM

@3 it’s really that it’s like the last straw in a pile of shit that really bothers me, em.  I’m unclear on why being bothered by something bothersome is wrong, though.  I can feign coolness, but I prefer mockery.  Just my style, which is why I have a blog instead of a street corner where I smoke with an air of studied indifference to the decay of the world around me.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/04  at  11:33 AM

Not that there’s anything wrong with an air of studied indifference.  People devoted to that, dont’ flame me!  Which would ruin your studied indifference pose.

I think I just overall am annoyed at how the levels of congratulation and self-congratulation for having someone agree to marry you and make babies with you are rising rapidly. Overboard congratulations for basically doing something most people have done for all of history is patriarchy pretending to be empowerment. 

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  08/04  at  11:39 AM

Is it rising or are you just entering an age range where everyone who didn’t get married at 22 is now getting married and having kids and that’s playing out on FB because none of us were on FB when the people who got married at 22 where getting married?

Comment #17: chingona  on  08/04  at  11:42 AM

Hmm, Fox News vs. Spongebob.  I think I’ll stick with Spongebob (Bobby to my adorable 2.5 year old niece).  It’s easily the least annoying show she wants to watch when I’m babysitting her.

Comment #18: dead souls  on  08/04  at  11:43 AM

just so they can air condition buildings to sweater temperatures and drive oversized status symbol cars.  And a lot of people buy that assumption! 

It is also a fiction that climate change is all about individual choice.  It isn’t.  You can only choose amongst what is offered and what is possible. 

One reason people drive large cars once they have kids is that small cars don’t accomodate the now eight years of carseats and booster seats. One reason people buy larger houses is because small ones are difficult to find in some areas due to zoning requirements.  Etc.  Public transit does not readily accomodate the needs of parents hauling children, either.  You can’t use CFLs if your local stores don’t stock them (less an issue now than 20 years ago).

The solution lies in stricter fuel economy standards, ending snob zoning, surcharges on wasteful lightbulbs, and other society level interventions which require reasonable options.  Making it an individual choice issue drops right into that Park Slope trap you noted in another post.

Comment #19: Ms Kate  on  08/04  at  11:44 AM

It wouldn’t be hard to “teach the controversy” in a cartoon in a fair and balanced way: a group of penguins on a melting iceberg, one denies that the ice is melting, another says it’s melting but it will never melt away entirely.  Eventually it’s revealed that the deniers are trying to distract the other penguins while waiting for the ice to melt enough that they can get at a stash of frozen fish and gorge themselves on it before everyone drowns.
What, that’s a very fair and balanced allegory.
Oh, you mean an allegory that balances reality with falsehood.  Sorry, I don’t do that.

Comment #20: Dr. Psycho  on  08/04  at  11:54 AM

chingona—All of our friends started sprogging off in the last few years, and Amanda and I are the same age, so it could be the latter.

I think that for people who have kids later, there’s a lot more “this is the culmination of our life’s work” whereas people who have kids in their 20’s are generally having kids because it’s expected of them or it’s just sort of the life they want for themselves and it’s not some massive investment. With some major caveats of course (and I know exceptions to the rules in both corners).

Comment #21: Mighty Ponygirl  on  08/04  at  11:57 AM

I’m the same age, too, and there definitely are a tons of marriages and babies lately. Last year, out-of-town weddings, two of which we were in, sucked up all our vacation time and a good chunk of our disposable income (mostly on the travel). But I’m happy that everyone is happy, and this year I don’t think I’ll go to any weddings, and next year there’s one. This too shall pass.

I actually married young, had my first kid kind of youngish for my socioeconomic group and then waited a while, so I had the second as a lot of people are having the first. Facebook has allowed me to become some sort of older/wiser auntie about the whole pregnancy/birth/babies thing, which is kind of cool, actually, and also probably one reason I’m not bothered by it. People who want kids are happy about babies, so I’m happy that they’re happy.

Maybe I’m lucky, but I don’t know too many people who have that “culmination of life work” attitude. I know the type you are talking about, though. My uncle was like that when he finally had kids, after a decade of being proudly, sneeringly childless toward my parents. The converts are always the most fervent ...

Comment #22: chingona  on  08/04  at  12:08 PM

“The solution lies in stricter fuel economy standards, ending snob zoning, surcharges on wasteful lightbulbs, and other society level interventions which require reasonable options.”

Ms Kate, I never before realized what a fascist, commie, America-hating, environmental terrorist you are!  You make me sick!

Regulations of any kind represent a virtual holocaust against American business interests and the American People.  If you weren’t such a dirty hippie, you’d realize that you are calling for nothing less than the extermination of America as we know it.

One more statement like that should qualify you to have your citizenship stripped and then to be expelled from the hallowed ground of this great nation.

If you wish to remain here, I suggest you atone by replacing the CFLs in you house with standard incandescent bulbs (and leave them all on all the time), set your thermostat to 65-degrees (in the Summer, and 78-degrees in the Winter), lose your minivan and (yuck!) bicycles in favor of big V8-powered SUVs for everyone.  It’s the least you can do for your country.

You might also look into moving further out into suburbia, yet spurn all publican transit, so you can make a good, solid, American 40-mile commute every day.  And see if you switch over to that Dolphin-Death™-brand tuna, as a show of good faith.  And take up smoking.  Tobacco farmers need you and most Americans just don’t get enough second-hand smoke.  And seriously consider switching over to good, mountain-leveling, Appalachian coal for all your heating and cooking needs…

And to everyone else:  Help out your country and the world:  Do your part by cutting down a tree somewhere today!...

Comment #23: MikeEss  on  08/04  at  12:16 PM

Is it rising or are you just entering an age range where everyone who didn’t get married at 22 is now getting married and having kids and that’s playing out on FB because none of us were on FB when the people who got married at 22 where getting married?

Yes!  That’s is exactly!  Thanks for writing that out so clearly!

Parents seem to love their kids, of course, but they don’t seem to like them very much.  It’s probably a pathological variation on the resentment that also drives people to demand that kids get off the internet and start listening to the radio or to learn cursive rather than touch typing.  After all, by the time you have kids, you’ve already made a bunch of mistakes, have a slew of regrets, and probably are dissatisfied with your life.  And then you have this person who has an entire lifetime of possibility in front of them.  What better way to stick it to them than by lying to them about how the world works to prevent them from finding creative ways to be happy?

I’d love to see more posts about the rights of youth, Amanda, if you have it in you to spark a huge flamewar on the internet.

Comment #24: stubbles  on  08/04  at  01:36 PM

MikeEss, you are my favorite commentor (-er?) on these here internets!

Comment #25: Kristen from MA  on  08/04  at  01:43 PM

So, um.  13-year-olds are people who don’t have a lot of good experience.

Babies are, ah . . . babies.  And small children are psychotic little monsters only barely capable of comprehending human beings other than them who are also amusing and capable of awe and wonder in their search for knowledge. 

But until 11-ish, maybe?  No, they’re kids.  Then they’re starting to become adults, a process our society makes unbelievably difficult.

Comment #26: Punditus Maximus  on  08/04  at  02:26 PM

I’d like to connect this subject about teaching children to the creation of a fictional reality and the power that gives to the reality makers.

If one’s studied media one knows that media doesn’t just present to people an idea that another wants to share, but that media has power over people. Power to educate, enlighten, empower, and on another side, the power to mislead, disenfranchise, enslave, and ultimately create a reality that allows the reality creators to manipulate and control individuals and masses stuck within the fantasy.

And sinisterly, those who are unaware or deny the power of media are those most vulnerable to it, like children and rugged individualists.

The reality makers dropped their ball when it comes to the millennials and people of similar age, people who’ve turned out not to be entirely desirable to them. People who talk and criticize and love to learn about reality. Realizing that mistake they’ve been pushing to get at the current batch of children in school, from k-12 and college and universities if they can manage it.

The reality makers have ruined education and thinking with their “improved standards.”

They’ve cut the arts and humanities, which allows people to directly learn to both understand and use the tools of reality making, lowering peoples’ defenses.

They’re now attacking science which so far the best means we have to understand reality. They try to replace the fact of facts with the idea that there are many facts depending on subjective experience, that reality is a matter of opinion. They are trying to align their “science” with the tool that has created reality and controlled people for millennia, religion. There are constant attacks on the separation of church and state when it comes to education, and if the reality makers are successful in turning education from a mostly public to mostly private institution they can wield religion against children unfettered.

Though reality is what it is and can’t be denied and overlooked by everyone, I think that the reality makers have an advantage in that they are a powerful few who can create whole institutions and the social infrastructure to control the majority of people. The clueless will accept the new reality and live in it without question, and the authoritarians will use everything from social pressure to outright force to get those pesky reality based people in line.

Comment #27: R.T.  on  08/04  at  03:18 PM

It depends on the kid. Mostly I think you’re right Punditus, but I personally was totally a little adult.

Comment #28: typist  on  08/04  at  03:22 PM

The difference between adults and children is that we only worry about the future - they have to live in it.

Comment #29: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/04  at  03:40 PM

So, um.  13-year-olds are people who don’t have a lot of good experience.

Babies are, ah . . . babies.  And small children are psychotic little monsters only barely capable of comprehending human beings other than them who are also amusing and capable of awe and wonder in their search for knowledge.

But until 11-ish, maybe?  No, they’re kids.  Then they’re starting to become adults, a process our society makes unbelievably difficult.

I fail to see how that contradicts the point Amanda made about child-rearing as a responsibility, rather than a right?

Comment #30: jadehawk  on  08/04  at  03:41 PM

I can’t believe that you wrote an entire post claiming that control over children’s minds is not a parental right.  But it’s interesting that you opened your last paragraph with “Not sure how to solve this problem…”

There’s only one way to solve this problem, and I think you and most of the commenters know what it is.  Remove those control rights from parents - which they never should have had in the first place. 

Instead of having parents police what enters their children’s minds, have an institution that polices what parents put in their children’s minds.  Now we just have to figure out what to call it and who gets to join (lefty/feminist/atheist bloggers are automatic members, of course!)

It’s also interesting that this post comes right after one about never having children.

Comment #31: bobby  on  08/04  at  03:46 PM

I can’t believe that you wrote an entire post claiming that control over children’s minds is not a parental right.

Of course you can’t.

Comment #32: typist  on  08/04  at  03:47 PM

Or, you know, we could just avoid trying to “police” what enters someone’s mind at all and instead teach them what to do with information that contradicts or interferes with what they already believe or know.

Comment #33: stubbles  on  08/04  at  03:50 PM

Stubbles, that will never lead to another generation of perfectly indoctrinated white Christian footsoldiers So obviously you can see how your plan is flawed.

Comment #34: typist  on  08/04  at  03:58 PM

Children should be given the full respect of mind an adult would receive. They should be given the truth and the tools they need to think critically and deal with potentially upsetting facts about reality, rather than lie to them or shield them from things that they will learn about eventually, things that might hurt them mentally and emotionally if they aren’t taught how to deal with such things.

Yes children need guidance, but they will be adults one day and adults most of their lives if they live a full life as we would expect in the privileged world.

Comment #35: R.T.  on  08/04  at  04:03 PM

If a lot of 13 year olds don’t have good experience with the world, it is because of the Campaign for Risk Free Childhood through Buying Shit and Media Panicmongering has cowed parents into hypersupervision.

13 year olds don’t have good judgement - at least, on the level of adults.  This gets compounded by never being allowed to take limited risks with limited consequences.  By way of an analogy, it would be very hard to walk far and walk well if you were told to always use a power chair from early in your life.

Comment #36: Ms Kate  on  08/04  at  04:06 PM

A science-teaching friend was worried about having to teach creation.  I suggested creating a lesson plan where students themselves design a creature for a specific purpose, and then compare that purpose-built creature to one that owns the natural habitat that it was designed for.  By being the Intelligent Designer, kids would learn that organisms like humans either delineated from other creatures or their “intelligent designer” was anything but ... or wasted.

Comment #37: Ms Kate  on  08/04  at  04:09 PM

I can’t believe that you wrote an entire post claiming that control over children’s minds is not a parental right.

Control over childrens’ actions is so difficult already, you really think anyone, even parents, can control childrens’ minds?

The only time that my mother ever made reference to something not being suitable for me, I was 8 years old, and she was talking to one of my cousins who was living with us about his reading material which initiated the discussion in the first place. 

Outside of that, I could read anything in the house, from my fathers’ paperback westerns(which never interested me) to old geology textbooks to Poe to H. L. Mencken, etc.

The pearl clutchers remind me of this episode of the first revival of the Twilight Zone show.

Comment #38: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  08/04  at  04:09 PM

Congratulations on the best laugh of the day…

“We’re going to party like it’s 1929”

Comment #39: Ronbo  on  08/04  at  04:11 PM

This thread reminded me of my dear mother, who was born in 1913 and came of age during the Depression.  She always voted, but absolutely refused to tell me who she voted for - that was private!  She was a real conservative.  She was appalled by waste - using a paper towel or a plastic bag once and then throwing it away rather than using a towel or a bowl?  Wasteful!  Using electricity to run a dishwasher when all you have to do is wash them yourself!  Lights on in an empty room?  She never expressed an opinion on the environmental movement, but as someone who grew up in hard times, she entirely understood the wastefulness of, well, waste.

Comment #40: gretchen  on  08/04  at  04:17 PM

@ Ms Kate

I’m not liking the power chair bit in your analogy. Power chairs allow many to be mobile when they otherwise might be, in your analogy it’s the tired wheelchair/mobility device-as-restraint trope when that is not the purpose of mobility devices.

I get what you mean by your analogy, just maybe next time could you choose what you include in your analogies a little more carefully? Thank you. : )

Comment #41: R.T.  on  08/04  at  04:18 PM

What Ms. Kate said #39.

A few years ago, I was supervising my children while they were playing with friends at a playground. At one point, the two friends (brothers) noticed it was time to go and of course I offered my cell phone so they could call their mother. The brothers just looked at me funny and said, “We have bikes.”

Yeah, I’m thinking, but you’re like six blocks away from home and you’re something like 10 and 8 years old.

You know what? That was startling.

And yes, there’s talk of these boys’ mom being a Bad Parent, which is ludicrous, but it’s gotten to that. If you don’t oversupervise every last movement of your children, or at least delegate them to an equally oversupervising adult, you are a Bad Parent. Letting your perfectly capable children bike a quarter mile home in the daytime is right out. It’s absurd.

Comment #42: catfood  on  08/04  at  04:21 PM

Has anyone made the “omg ur not a parent, it is beyond ur understanding” excuse yet?  That’s always a classic

Comment #43: alicefairy  on  08/04  at  04:32 PM

Someone has to brainwash the little bastards, and I’m volunteering for the job.

Comment #44: junk science  on  08/04  at  05:02 PM

They need to bring back Captain Planet green mullet and all.

Comment #45: pharmakos  on  08/04  at  05:02 PM

Does anyone have the impression that Americans are making more of “life events” such as marriage because they no longer expect to rise steadily up the socio-eonomic ladder? You can’t get the job of your dreams, maybe you can’t even get a promotion or a raise, maybe you can’t even get a job. But you can get married and have the wedding of your dreams (on credit).

Comment #46: sara  on  08/04  at  06:01 PM

But you can get married and have the wedding of your dreams (on credit).

Unless you’re a Nice Guy, in which case you just don’t get any parties.

Comment #47: junk science  on  08/04  at  06:13 PM

Since when is it beyond the pale for a 10 year old to bike six blocks? I’m experiencing culture shock now.

My mom wouldn’t let our brother come to punk shows until he was 16 (some well-known hardcore punk bands were started by 15 year-olds!) but all our childhood we’d been biking miles without supervision, as long as it was daylight. And we had protective gear. Which made us whimps in the eyes of the other kids.

Comment #48: BlackBloc  on  08/04  at  06:18 PM

Has anyone made the “omg ur not a parent, it is beyond ur understanding” excuse yet?  That’s always a classic

I think bobby’s last paragraph qualifies

Comment #49: jadehawk  on  08/04  at  07:01 PM

I don’t know any of Spongebob’s characters, but I gather it’s a cartoon with a subversive undercurrent already.

It’s a weird show which makes people want to put it in the same subversive adult-themes category as Ren and Stimpy, the Tick, or Rocky and Bullwinckle but it’s not that smart. Sponge Bob is just a goofy kids show and it’s occasional moments of depth are more a result of “wisdom from the mouths of babes” than any serious objective by the writers/animators to send a message.

Comment #50: scrumby  on  08/04  at  07:40 PM

Since when is it beyond the pale for a 10 year old to bike six blocks? I’m experiencing culture shock now.

Unfortunately, I was raised by such a parent. I wasn’t allowed to leave sight of my house, and then my parents wondered why I never bothered going outside.

Yeah, it was incredibly stifling… *shudder*

Comment #51: Triplanetary  on  08/04  at  08:32 PM

they need to bring back Captain Planet green mullet and all.

Don’t laugh.  Word is there’s a film in development. 

As if the cartoon wasn’t bad enough…that show played like a parody of environmentalism.

Comment #52: Sour Kraut  on  08/04  at  08:55 PM

The “six blocks” thing depends so crucially on what’s available within those six blocks. Where I grew up,  a six-block radius would take you to the other end of the park, or to the corner store, the other corner store and the drugstore, or halfway to school. My cousins it would take past the pond, through a bunch of two-acre lots and most of the way to the high-priced drunk tank. Where my parents moved when I was in high school, one block would take you to the limited-access trunk road with no sidewalks and a bus stop with a once-an-hour bus into town.

Kids aren’t just missing the judgment of many adults, they’re also missing the experience, the context, the cognitive capacity, and so forth. So even if you try to give them access to as much information as they ask for, you’re still filtering, summarizing, leaving stuff out and so forth. So treating them like less-experienced adults is is in lots of ways just as manipulative as treating them like “kids”.  (And yeah, the 6-year-old saw a label on a container of organic chocolate milk claiming that no cloning was involved in its production and wanted to know why someone might clone a cow. It did not go well…)

Comment #53: paul  on  08/04  at  09:09 PM

@jadehawk #49 I’m not a parent.

It’s simply that the long story short point is this:  If parents don’t have this control/power/right, then who does?  Who decides what info the child gets to receive?  Who has anywhere near the right that the parents have?

Would it be better that the child receives info:

1.) approved by a panel of experts in natural science, sociology, psychology, and so on

or

2.) from their parents (even if it goes against what’s commonly accepted)

If you say that #1 is better then you agree with Amanda that child raising is a “responsibility, not a right”.  We would have to have have a panel(s) to decide what the truth is.  Then we would have to ask, who decides who is on the panel(s)... and so on.

It’s a Pandora’s Box straight out of 1984.

Comment #54: bobby  on  08/04  at  09:54 PM

MikeEss: I admire your purity. A survivor… unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.

Comment #55: bad Jim  on  08/04  at  10:12 PM

Wow, I saw the SpongeBob clip a few days ago (after the post on “religious skepticism” made me think of Fairly OddParents, I wasted a few hours on Nickelodeon nostalgia) and had no idea it was recent. I just assumed it had come out a few years ago and been hand-wrung over then.

“I’m really unsure how you would even introduce the “controversy” to the age group that likes Sponge Bob.”

You could do it, but you would need an entire episode, and you would have to use metaphors that would obscure the point. Get something like Mr. Krabs hiring someone (or more likely blackmailing them since he’s so evil and money-obsessed nowadays he wouldn’t spend a dime on it) to “study” his (terrible, but financially beneficial to him) energy-using credentials and proclaim them a-ok in the face of someone like Squidward arguing otherwise, and SpongeBob/Patrick falling for it. Maybe Squidward could quit his job (or be fired) and lead a rally of protesters outside the Krusty Krab. After hijinks, Squidward is proved right somehow- maybe disasters like the ones they use in the actual PSA ensue- but in the tradition of the show Mr. Krabs gets off scott-free and SpongeBob’s unquestioning loyalty to him never falters, with perhaps a subtly horrifying implication that everything is going to go to shit because of what Krabs did sometime in the near future.

This would in no way placate wingnuts since it shows Krabs (big business) and the lackey who conducted the false research for him being wrong, but at least it would show the “conflict” between liars and people who are right.

Comment #56: Treefinger  on  08/04  at  10:22 PM

@jadehawk #49 I’m not a parent.

and this is salient to me making fun of you… how?

Comment #57: jadehawk  on  08/04  at  10:34 PM

Who decides what info the child gets to receive?

How about the child?

Comment #58: Nimravid  on  08/04  at  10:59 PM

@ bobby

Are you aware the original topic is in the context of schooling?

Bringing fascism and mind-control and truth panels into the mix and getting your concern all over it strikes me as indecorous.

Comment #59: R.T.  on  08/05  at  12:53 AM

bobby, it’s not a debate on who gets to brainwash the children. It’s trying to figure out how to get people to realize that kids aren’t there to be brainwashed at all; that they are separate people with minds of their own, and what control we have is to be used to help them grow into themselves, not to mold them into little simulcra of our dreams.

Comment #60: Tapetum  on  08/05  at  01:44 AM

The things that struck me about the clip were the mention of “taxpayer funds OMG” and that we are 17th in science.

Maybe the reason we are so far behind in science is because you conservative schmucks keep wasting everyone’s time in school with this non science bullshit and creating controversy where there is none.  There are only so many minutes in a school period.  Some schools do 45 minutes every day, some do 90 minutes every other.  Teachers already have to hit many objectives in each lesson plan that are delineated by, yes, the standardized testing.  Every single second of class time has to be devoted to teaching and processing information, and wasting time on NON SCIENCE BULLSHIT just makes it that much harder to teach the real stuff.

And as to the complaint about taxpayer funds paying for actual education (OMGWTFBBQ), I really, really wish all these conservative fuckwits would just fuck on off and go Galt already.  We already have one of the lowest tax rates in any Western nation.  Losing your dumb asses wouldn’t cost us anything in taxes, and maybe once we did get rid of you, we could then raise the tax rate to a sensible level and start having all the nice things that everyone else in the civilized world gets.

Also, this “teach the controversy” bullshit is what is absolutely wrong and evil about school boards being able to decide curriculum.  Any dumbfuck jackass can run for school board and get voted on.  Most of the time these people have ZERO experience with any kind of actual teaching or, dog forbid, pedagogy.  Who in their right mind thinks these people should be making decisions about what kids learn?

Comment #61: speedbudget  on  08/05  at  07:48 AM

It’s simply that the long story short point is this:  If parents don’t have this control/power/right, then who does?  Who decides what info the child gets to receive?  Who has anywhere near the right that the parents have?

On the topic at hand, parents have complete control of whether or not their kids watch “Spongebob.” If they’re the sort of person who has an extraordinary need to make sure that science about global warming doesn’t sneak into their child’s mind, they really need to make sure the child isn’t watching TV they haven’t prescreened at all. New shows are out, even ones on Fox. They are probably going to have to keep their kid from going to any decent public school, as well. which is also their choice.

Sounds like a great life for a kid.

Demanding that the world conceal things like global climate change from your child is about as reasonable as a hermit setting up his shack in Times Square and demanding that everyone clear out so he can be a hermit. Or par for the course for the Fox New watching conservative.

Comment #62: witless chum  on  08/05  at  12:26 PM

She was appalled by waste - using a paper towel or a plastic bag once and then throwing it away rather than using a towel or a bowl?

This shouldn’t be a snob contest.  You can either waste paper towels and plastic bags, or you can waste your time and effort.  We can be understanding and make changes without acting holier than the other group.  It doesn’t help at all to ignore the legitimate reasons why people use these shortcuts and only shame them for being wasteful or lazy.  We need to address structural problems and make it easier for people to be less wasteful.

Comment #63: bananacat  on  08/05  at  01:09 PM

Comment #31: bobby on 08/04 at 03:46 PM

The combination of butthurt, paranoia and self-involvement in your comments is truly a whole new taste. Thank you for the savory mixture.

Comment #64: atheist  on  08/05  at  03:48 PM

If you can’t tyrannize your children, who can you tyrannize? It’s not fair.

Comment #65: junk science  on  08/05  at  06:38 PM

to Amanda back up at #16.  Your comment reminded me of a wonderfully satirical writer abotu gwoing up ROman Catholic on the south side of Chicago in the ‘60’s and ‘70’s. 

OK, here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R._Powers

Anyway, in one of his books, Unoriginal SInner and the Ice Cream God (?)  he describes what a wedding invitation would say if people were honest.  Something about a belated acknowledgment of the actual event which occurred in the backseat of a ‘57 Chevy, IIRC.

Comment #66: phylosopher  on  08/05  at  11:29 PM
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