Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Why I don’t think this “split” will amount to much by Valentine’s Day Previous entry: Lessons from the health care reform debate

Star Trek, Star Wars And The Corner: Abandon Sex All Ye Who Enter Here

imageOver at the Corner, Mike Potemra has decided to have a debate on the relative merits of Star Trek‘s moral philosophy.  (Via.)

Coincidentally, I have over the past couple of months been watching DVDs of Star Trek: The Next Generation, a show I missed completely in its run of 1987 to 1994; and I confess myself amazed that so many conservatives are fond of it. Its messages are unabashedly liberal ones of the early post-Cold War era – peace, tolerance, due process, progress (as opposed to skepticism about human perfectibility). I asked an NR colleague about it, and he speculated that the show’s appeal for conservatives lay largely in the toughness of the main character: Jean-Luc Picard was a moral hardass where the Captain Kirk of the earlier show was more of an easygoing, cheerful swashbuckler. I think there’s something to that: Patrick Stewart did indeed create, in that character, a believable and compelling portrait of ethical uprightness.

Picard’s ethical uprightness came in the context of the very ideals that conservatives hated.  Picard’s strength was that he deeply and passionately believed in multicultural tolerance and all that other frou-frou shit that made Star Trek so conservatively insufferable, someone who was unbreakable and wholly dedicated even in the most desperate of situations.  Of course, that requires connecting the moral lessons of seven seasons of a television show to the main fucking character, which is apparently far more difficult than previously believed.

And then, of course, John Hood steps in and talks about how awesome Star Wars is in comparison, because we’re in the opening night line for Avatar, right?

In Star Trek, law enforcement is armed with phasers. Officers stun people, then lock them up, then subject them to intensive psychiatry until they are “cured” of their criminal impulses. In Star Wars, law enforcement under the Galactic Republic appears to be the job of Jedi Knights who try to avoid violence but, if pressed, will cut you in half with a light saber.

In Star Trek, evil characters are frequently considered to be the product of a poor environment, a bad childhood, misunderstanding, or miscommunication. It turns out that Captain Kirk and the other original cast members just didn’t understand the Klingons, for example, or the Romulans. The Gorn, a lizard-like race that does a Pearl Harbor on the Federation and kills many innocent people, are later excused from culpability because they say that they saw peaceful Federation colonists as “invaders” in their territory. Killer clouds of space gas or giant space amebas threatening the lives of billions turn out to be lost children or mindless things just trying to survive. Even the Borg, a great source of villainy from The Next Generation, are humanized in subsequent stories.

In Star Wars, evil characters have been seduced by the dark side of the Force. They have given into temptation, and are held accountable for their actions. The Star Wars movies are really morality tales, and have a strong religious component in spite of themselves. No one argues that Sith Lords might have turned out differently if they had just been enrolled in a quality preschool program.

Star Wars (or what became of it) ended up being a rather terrible story about a society run on genetic predeterminism.  The police force of the “good old days” were the secretive elite of a crypto-religious sect who fully accepted that at all times, two of their members would be trying to destroy civilization as they knew it.  Membership was based on an accident of genetic luck, and those who lacked the access and wherewithal to get screened at the proper time were out of luck, stuck at the whim and mercy of their telekinetic, mind-altering overlords.  Government was largely ineffectual, a dysfunctional democracy latched onto a decaying royal system.  The entire lesson of Star Wars is that this highly traditional, morally unyielding system fails, and it fails miserably, as the billions of people killed in the Sith insurrection would have testified, had they, well, lived. 

No wonder it’s such a conservative series.

The fetish displayed here is for decisive, predictable action, but the presumption is that any such action is inherently conservative, no matter its motivation, and good, no matter its outcome.  It must be nice to have a philosophy that thinks Jar-Jar Binks was a good idea. 

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Jesse Taylor on 07:49 PM • (95) Comments

The fetish displayed here is for decisive, predictable action, but the presumption is that any such action is inherently conservative, no matter its motivation, and good, no matter its outcome.  It must be nice to have a philosophy that thinks Jar-Jar Binks was a good idea.

Robot Chicken has a skit where you follow a hard working ordinary Joe Schmoe alien through a working day, to have him go out to a pub. He bumps into a human at the bar and apologises. The human doesn’t understand, and a friend plays a joke by saying that he doesn’t like the human.  Joe tries to explain this is not true, but as he is doing so, the human slices his hand off with a light saber. This is, of coursw, the bar scene from Star Wars.

This is the action of the self-righteous, the same sort of thinking that just led to the US murdering 49 Yemeni civilians. And the mangled bodies of women and children are being showd on TV all over the Middle East as an example of American “moralty”.

Comment #1: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/23  at  08:19 PM

I am a fan of Star Trek and a rather more tepid fan of Star Wars and I like to think that I can hold forth rather well on the merits and problems of them both, *and* my 4th wedding anniversary is Saturday.

So therefore I falsify the thesis behind your title, Mr. Taylor.

“This is the action of the self-righteous,”

Did they miss the part where the alien and his friend push Luke into someone else’s table and then draw blasters on Obi-Wan?  Because that’s how *I* remember that scene playing out.  Obi-Wan was justified, if harsh.

Comment #2: Falconer  on  12/23  at  08:25 PM

Conservatives get butthurt about EVERYTHING in the media it seems. They can’t even leave fucking Sesame Street alone! And that’s not hyperbole. I’m serious.

Comment #3: Ben D.  on  12/23  at  08:27 PM

Neeeeeeeeeeeeerds!

That either Star Trek or Star Wars could be held up as some kind of optimal ideal for us to emulate is sad. The real answer is Galaxy Quest.

Comment #4: Santa Claustrophobia  on  12/23  at  08:29 PM

Picard was a flute-playing, FRENCH, fine-food-loving, literature-loving elitist, fer chrissakes. Did I mention he was FRENCH?

Conservatives are just responding viscerally to the Daddy cues of a deep-voiced balding white dude giving orders, and missing all the rest of the character’s aspects.

However, if this would ever lead them to support a candidate who resembled Picard in actuality, it would be fine with me.

Comment #5: emjaybee  on  12/23  at  08:35 PM

Picard was a flute-playing, FRENCH, fine-food-loving, literature-loving elitist, fer chrissakes. Did I mention he was FRENCH?

And a member of the military of the Federation (aka ZOMG ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT!!1!11)

Comment #6: Ben D.  on  12/23  at  08:39 PM

Falconer - you forgot the vital addition of The Corner.

Comment #7: Jesse Taylor  on  12/23  at  08:49 PM

Yes, I really must protest the “Nerds don’t have sex” thing.  As a Star Trek loving (so much so that I have the books) Star Wars loving (so much so that I have books), D&D;playing, Renaissance Dress wearing, bona fied nerd I have to say that is SO MUCH EASIER to get laid in nerd-dom than in normal land.  Hell, Renaissance Festival might as well be called “Come in costume, leave in a lot of less of that costume but with a satisfied smile”.

Comment #8: Antigone  on  12/23  at  08:52 PM

“I really must protest the “Nerds don’t have sex” thing.”

Sorry. If it weren’t true, it wouldn’t be a stereotype.

JK

Comment #9: Mark  on  12/23  at  09:01 PM

Its messages are unabashedly liberal ones of the early post-Cold War era – peace, tolerance, due process, progress (as opposed to skepticism about human perfectibility).

Once upon a time, most of these things were conservative values.  Conservatism, above all else, aims to preserve the status quo.  By that measure, Picard is a conservative, and his lifestyle (his focus on knowledge and classical forms of art, music, and literature) is conservative in a traditional sense.

Kirk was willing to let an entire species go extinct because of the actions of a few of its members.  He better represents modern day conservatism.

Comment #10: keshmeshi  on  12/23  at  09:12 PM

Please keep in mind that as a fellow nerd, there’s a reason I included the Corner in the title.

Comment #11: Jesse Taylor  on  12/23  at  09:14 PM

I do like Star Trek’s idealism a lot, although its vision of the future isn’t, as a whole, consistent or convincing. That said, I do love Star Trek. A lot. And so does my girlfriend, so let me just join the ranks of nerds who get sex (I know it’s not much to be proud of, but I spent all of high school thinking I would end up fulfilling the perpetually virginal nerd stereotype, so I’m going to brag about it dammit).

Anyway, Star Trek (TOS and TNG, at least) does succeed in being pretty consistently liberal, mainly because it doesn’t directly engage with present-day issues, so it’s easy for it to just stick with the generic mantras of equality, justice, peace, etc. (Yeah, I know the Klingons are largely a Cold War allegory, but a lot of other Star Trek episodes just carry messages like “yay due process” that aren’t exactly pulled straight from the headlines.)

Comment #12: Triplanetary  on  12/23  at  09:16 PM

“Did they miss the part where the alien and his friend push Luke into someone else’s table and then draw blasters on Obi-Wan?  Because that’s how *I* remember that scene playing out.  Obi-Wan was justified, if harsh.”

Yeah, it’s kind of like Han shooting first.  The guy he fried had just given a “Woohoo” reply to “Over my dead body.” and had a gun on him.  You don’t really need to justify shooting his ass much more than that.

Though really, how anyone gets a cohesive or workable ethos out of Star Wars is beyond me.  At this point, it’s morphed into a heterogeneous blob of “Lucas doesn’t know what the fuck he’s doing.”

Comment #13: preying mantis  on  12/23  at  09:22 PM

Look, we all can’t stand Jar-jar Binks, largely because he seemed to be a nasty stereotype put in alien clothes. But he turned out to be the one guy who could see that Palpatine should not be given such power. In short, Jar-jar was a good civil liberties loving politician and not the guy modern conservatives would like.

Comment #14: Samantha Vimes  on  12/23  at  09:24 PM

I do like Star Trek’s idealism a lot, although its vision of the future isn’t, as a whole, consistent or convincing

Well, if we at the present had a magical machine that could make consumer goods, and also any kind of food/drink you want out of think air, run off of clean, abundant, and limitless energy, the world right now would be just like Star Trek!  That thing they have (forget what it’s called, I never followed the series closely) kind of solves a lot of problems.

Comment #15: Ben D.  on  12/23  at  09:33 PM

“[...] the world right now would be just like Star Trek!”

I’d like to think we’d find a more elegant solution to interpreting the Prime Directive in a way that would still allow for fucking our way across known space than “La la la I can’t hear you the Prime Directive does not apply to dicks.”

Comment #16: preying mantis  on  12/23  at  09:38 PM

I’m thinking a lot conservatives would be plenty happy to live in a society based on genetic determinism. 

I always thought the conservative love of Star trek had something to do with the minimal civilian presence.

Comment #17: semi_factual  on  12/23  at  09:40 PM

I’m thinking a lot conservatives would be plenty happy to live in a society based on genetic determinism.

Scratch a conservative, find a Monarchist.

Comment #18: Ben D.  on  12/23  at  09:43 PM

Which makes their supposed reverence of the framers and their likenesses being used by the teabaggers utterly ridiculous on it’s face. They’d so be loyalists in the 1770s.

Comment #19: Ben D.  on  12/23  at  09:46 PM

<blockquote>Though really, how anyone gets a cohesive or workable ethos out of Star Wars is beyond me.  <blockquote>

It’s called changing the story and making shit up as you go along with no concern for consistency.

Listen, the first version of Star Wars was awesome.  I even read the novelization Lucas wrote (well, had Alan Dean Foster ghostwrite for him)

Then Lucas decided to make it into a ‘good father/bad father’ story and screwed it all up.  Badly.  Screwing up the first movie’s motivations (Luke being in love with his sister is gross and obviously not planned in advance).  Just—NO.

Lucas even admitted that “Willow” was his attempt at writing a “good mother/bad mother” story to echo “Star Wars’” daddy issues.

Adding in all the dropped scenes in the “Special Editions” is crap, too, since suddenly Leia is saying the same lines repeatedly and so is Han.  Who shot first.

And the prequels…as much as Lucas seemed to be throwing in lines to slam the Bush Administration, what the hell?  Jedis are bad.  The Republic deserved to go down.  How were they any better than the Empire?

Hard to believe there was a time when Star Wars was infinitely cooler than Star Trek.

Comment #20: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/23  at  09:55 PM

“Hard to believe there was a time when Star Wars was infinitely cooler than Star Trek.”

The OT still is.  You just have to ignore everything Lucas has ever said about it and everything he got to make after being anointed King Dick of Space-Wizard Mountain.

Comment #21: preying mantis  on  12/23  at  10:02 PM

They’d so be loyalists in the 1770s.

My mother has been saying this about her Catholic brother for years.

Comment #22: Ursula  on  12/23  at  10:04 PM

In Star Wars, law enforcement under the Galactic Republic appears to be the job of Jedi Knights who try to avoid violence but, if pressed, will cut you in half with a light saber.

So the message of Star Wars is that we’re supposed to exterminate cops?

Comment #23: Mnemosyne  on  12/23  at  10:06 PM

The first Star Wars trilogy seemed cooler than Trek because it looked grimy and lived in.  This gave A New Hope and Empire an atmosphere of gritty realism that hadn’t really been seen before in sci-fi movies, despite the fact that the story was pure pulp fairy tale.  Then came Alien and Blade Runner, which really nailed the grimy lived in future much better.

The second trilogy, on the other hand, felt just as sterile and artificial as an airport, just like the sets of ST:TNG that I used to make fun of.

I loved both Trek and Star Wars, but for completely different reasons.  Definitely you’d have to be insane to want to actually live in the Old Republic as opposed to the Federation of Picard’s time.

Comment #24: Dr. Locrian  on  12/23  at  10:07 PM

Remember that old saw about a liberal being someone who hasn’t been mugged yet? I’d like to propose that a conservative is someone who, far from having pulled him-/herself up by their metaphorical bootstraps, has never actually had to do without. The idea that justice would be best served by, say, capital punishment without due process, as their Jedi ideals would have it, could only ever have come from a mind that has never conceived of being on the losing side of privilege.

Comment #25: jTuba  on  12/23  at  10:12 PM

I still think this scifi meme really ought to be “Stargate vs. Star Trek”.

Comment #26: Jha  on  12/23  at  10:25 PM

They’d so be loyalists in the 1770s.

Knowing what I know now, so would I.  I think blacks and first nations people would have fared a lot better under British rule, and we would’ve eventually become independent.

As for ST vs. SW? The Federation is a paradise except for the weekly threats to the galaxy, but the Star Wars universe always seemed more chaotic but more fun.

Comment #27: pablo  on  12/23  at  10:30 PM

Hell, Renaissance Festival might as well be called “Come in costume, leave in a lot of less of that costume but with a satisfied smile”.
Comment #8: Antigone on 12/23 at 06:52 PM

There’s a reason the SCA.org is also lovingly and fondly referred to by its members and alumni as Society of Consenting Adults

Comment #28: phylosopher  on  12/23  at  10:35 PM

ST vs SW is really more “which is better, Science Fiction or Science Fantasy?”

because as squishy soft as ST is, Star Wars is space knights use magic to fight space dragons and evil dark knights and shit.

Apples and Oranges.

Also, a bit of moral ambiguity would be nice. like there were basically whole bunches of Evil for Evil’s sake later poked into the universe because if they didn’t have that shit, you could actually make a strong case for the Empire being a radical improvement.

Rather than being an admittedly militaristic meritocracy, they basically have to make it so evil you can’t imagine it could function. Nobility exists and incompetent sycophants run everything. racism and misogyny are basically encoded by doctrine into all government, preventing literally billions of qualified performers from serving. They build factories that make pollution. and nothing else. Because Pollution is Dark Side, and therefore helps the emperor… somehow.

Basically, it should have been <strike>Boring Germans in Space</strike> Legend of Galactic Heroes

never has so much talking been so compelling.

Comment #29: karpad  on  12/23  at  10:42 PM

Another thing to keep in mind:  Star Trek was one of the first TV series to have a multiracial, multiethnic cast that didn’t stereotype its characters.  Lt. Uhura was just about the first black woman on TV who wasn’t a fat, jolly maid, Lt. Sulu was an exuberant fencer instead of an inscrutable Oriental, Ensign Chekov was a hero instead of a villain, Mr. Spock was the product of a truly interracial marriage, Captain Kirk was a libertine who was well read, literate, and passionate about his mission - they were about as conservative as the Freedom Riders.  And a large number of the scripts were unabashedly liberal, at least in the first two seasons, with allegories on the Cold War, overpopulation, slavery, female oppression, and mind control.  I know that the monsters are plastic and the sets are cardboard, but Star Trek was one of the few network series from that time period that was idealistic, multicultural, and actually tried its damnedest to live up to its ideals.

Star Wars is and always has been pretty mindless, with dialogue that is frequently just awful (the one exception is The Empire Strikes Back, which was written by Leigh Brackett, not George Lucas).  It’s gorgeous, and the SFX have always been fabulous, but when it comes to the *stories*, it’s Star Trek hands down.

Comment #30: Ellid  on  12/23  at  10:45 PM

(Yeah, I know the Klingons are largely a Cold War allegory, but a lot of other Star Trek episodes just carry messages like “yay due process” that aren’t exactly pulled straight from the headlines.)

Get off my lawn, you whippersnappers. This is 1966-69 we’re talking about. Back when a guy who advocated a nuclear first strike was on a national ticket. When those burned-out cityscapes from “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield” were recent stock footage. When assassinating politcal leaders was pretty much an every-year thing. When if you were a kid and lived in a city that hadn’t suffered riots you felt left out. And that’s even ignoring the music, the student insurrections, the hippies, the war(s). Maybe not ripped from the headlines like L&O;, but all thoroughly in tune with the zeitgeist.

Of course, in some ways TOS and the rest are deeply conservative in the wingnut sense, insofar as they display a huge bias toward technological fixes for everything and all the pastoral fantasies tend to come to a bad end.

Comment #31: paul  on  12/23  at  10:50 PM

Pablo, the native Canadians and natives in Australia didn’t fare much better than Native Americans in the British Empire, and given that the British government sympathized with the Confederacy during the Civil War they didn’t care about slavery, either. And then there’s their record in India and South Africa.

They abolished slavery in the Carribean in the 1830s, true, but mostly because the sugar trade was in terminal decline. Had they controlled the booming cotton fields on Mississippi it would have been very different.

Comment #32: Ben D.  on  12/23  at  10:57 PM

And the American Revolution DID lead to eventual (and occasionally immediate) emancipation in the northern states, and the exclusion of slavery from the midwest, I don’t see that happening without it. At least not in the late 1700s.

Comment #33: Ben D.  on  12/23  at  11:03 PM

Well, if we at the present had a magical machine that could make consumer goods, and also any kind of food/drink you want out of think air, run off of clean, abundant, and limitless energy,

...the conservatives would seek to have it banned or tightly controlled so the “undeserving” couldn’t benefit from it.

Comment #34: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/23  at  11:19 PM

http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/1999/06/15/brin_main/index.html

David Brin had a fairly insightful piece on this subject way back in the day.

Comment #35: Grimgrin  on  12/23  at  11:21 PM

the native Canadians and natives in Australia didn’t fare much better than Native Americans

Maybe not much better, but the natives in Canada did fare better.  And at the very least, the slaves would’ve been liberated some 30 years earlier by Britain’s Slavery Abolition Act of 1833.

Comment #36: pablo  on  12/23  at  11:33 PM

v And at the very least, the slaves would’ve been liberated some 30 years earlier by Britain’s Slavery Abolition Act of 1833.

Or, at best, thirty years later if you happened to be a slave in the North. Not only that, but slavery would have come to exist in what is now the midwest since the Continental Congress was the body that excluded it from that territory.

And that’s assuming they would have passed such an act at all if they had been in control of the booming, profitable cotton trade (that was underwriting the industrialization of Britain) rather than the declining and unprofitable sugar trade. Given the record of the British Empire of the 19th Century in other areas (India, Ireland, Egypt, Australia, South Africa) I sincerely doubt it.

Comment #37: Ben D.  on  12/23  at  11:40 PM

Anti-slavery sentiment took England earlier than in the US, and didn’t they offer liberation to slaves that allied with the British?

Comment #38: pablo  on  12/24  at  12:01 AM

And take your time with your response. i have the sudden urge to go the mall and buy gucci sunglasses.

Comment #39: pablo  on  12/24  at  12:02 AM

Anti-slavery sentiment took England earlier than in the US

I’d say it’s about equal. In both places until the later 1700s abolitionism was dismissed as something only Quakers cared about.

and didn’t they offer liberation to slaves that allied with the British?

Yes, if they fought with the British and survived they war they would be freed, but the same promise was made as a counter-offer by the rebels. In any event it was more about getting as much manpower as possible then about emancipation.

Comment #40: Ben D.  on  12/24  at  12:07 AM

Oh, and I should add that the offer the British made only applied to rebel-owned slaves, and the rebel offer was only for slaves owned by loyalists. They weren’t about to let slaves on their OWN sides be freed!

Comment #41: Ben D.  on  12/24  at  12:12 AM

Get off my lawn, you whippersnappers. This is 1966-69 we’re talking about. Back when a guy who advocated a nuclear first strike was on a national ticket. When those burned-out cityscapes from “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield” were recent stock footage. When assassinating politcal leaders was pretty much an every-year thing. When if you were a kid and lived in a city that hadn’t suffered riots you felt left out. And that’s even ignoring the music, the student insurrections, the hippies, the war(s). Maybe not ripped from the headlines like L&O;, but all thoroughly in tune with the zeitgeist.

Touche, sir. The only response I have is that I was thinking more of TNG than TOS, although that pretty much just reinforces my young whippersnapperness. But while I love both, I’m much more intimately familiar with TNG. It had all sorts of episodes with messages like “hey, try diplomacy instead of immediately shooting” and “superstition is bad.” While these messages are certainly relevant, I rarely felt like they were in response to any specific political events going on at the time. Mainly just ongoing issues that had long been relevant, and most of which still are.

Comment #42: Triplanetary  on  12/24  at  12:19 AM

I think blacks and first nations people would have fared a lot better under British rule, and we would’ve eventually become independent.

pablo, you might want to look into just how badly we treated the Loyalist blacks, many of whom have been in Nova Scotia now for the hundreds of years since the end of your Revolution.  It was not pretty.

Then again, the slaves would have been freed in the early 1800s, so that’s a plus.

Ben D:
The sympathy was more complex than that.  There was a genuine rift between large and significant sectors of the British economic and political and social ruling classes over the Civil War, some of which had nothing to do with the South or slavery itself, but rather with (a) sticking the Americans in the eye (b) following a policy similar to post-ww2 France, i.e. we love Germany so much we want there to be two of them.

there were significant and important swathes of the Empire populace (etc) who favoured the North for its abolitionist stand.

Comment #43: seeker6079  on  12/24  at  12:44 AM

Seeker—

I think it was a combination of wanting the cotton to flow to the mills again AND sticking the Americans in the eye. There were members of the British ruling class that favored the Union but on the whole a greater portion favored the Confederacy. Just read the editorial pages of the major British newspapers of the era Nothing but vitriol against the Union right up to the end.

And there is no doubt that the British and European PEOPLE* favored the Union cause wholeheartedly, but the British industrialists and Napoleon III, not so much.

*One of the best observers of this and biggest Union supporters was Karl Marx! Don’t tell the “Party of Lincoln!”

Comment #44: Ben D.  on  12/24  at  12:53 AM

“that is SO MUCH EASIER to get laid in nerd-dom than in normal land.”
The hell it is.

“How were they any better than the Empire? “
Less anti-alien racism for starters. The original trilogy never really touches on it, but apparently the Empire was oppressing non-human species pretty badly.

Also, KOTOR was the best thing to ever happen to the Star Wars universe.

Comment #45: Devonian  on  12/24  at  12:54 AM

And even if they were supporting the Confederacy just to stick it to the Yankees, that shows they were willing to side with slave owners and throw blacks under the bus when it suited the British Empire, which tells you what they would have likely done had THEY controlled the plantations!

Comment #46: Ben D.  on  12/24  at  12:58 AM

Very well, I shall modify-

In my experience, and the experience of my friends and associates in nerd-dom, it is much much easier to get laid in nerd-dom than normal land.

The Republic was also better than Empire for not being sexist asshats.

Comment #47: Antigone  on  12/24  at  01:01 AM

“As for ST vs. SW? The Federation is a paradise except for the weekly threats to the galaxy, but the Star Wars universe always seemed more chaotic but more fun.”

Say what you will - it would be FAR FAR better to be a woman in the Federation than a chained up toy in SW.

Comment #48: Gypsy Lee  on  12/24  at  01:06 AM

Hell, Renaissance Festival might as well be called “Come in costume, leave in a lot of less of that costume but with a satisfied smile”.

We had a song that went “If you can’t get laid in the SCA, you can’t get laid at all.”

(I never did get laid in the SCA, or anything close to it, and so far the song remains sadly prophetic.)

Comment #49: cminus  on  12/24  at  01:17 AM

The Republic was also better than Empire for not being sexist asshats.

Yes, why, if your father was Senator-for-life of a prosperous politically stagnant paradise world, you too can be a messenger/spy and eventually allowed field combat. but you won’t be allowed to wear a bra. unless it is made of metal, and then you don’t get a shirt.

Also, the Jedi Council had, what, 1 woman on it? The ranking senators, like the Chancellor and his powerful allies? all men.

The Empire had Issard. and… well, that’s about it. But all we ever see for the Alliance is basically Padme, and she only got power on a fucking sympathy vote.

yeah, both are pretty awful. I’d much rather live in a system where someone like Janeway made Admiral.

Comment #50: karpad  on  12/24  at  01:19 AM

Remember that old saw about a liberal being someone who hasn’t been mugged yet?

It’s been updated:

A conservative is a liberal who’s been mugged.

A liberal is a conservative who’s been arrested.

Comment #51: Sour Kraut  on  12/24  at  01:31 AM

How about Mon Mothma?  You know, the lady who ran the Rebellion and became the New Republic’s first Prime Minister equivalent?

Seriously, all the Empire had was Darla and she was fucking Tarkin to get that post (in addition to being ruthless and brilliant).  At least in the old republic you had a lot of females (and how do you know there weren’t more females? In the books they sure make it seem like there were).

Comment #52: Antigone  on  12/24  at  01:42 AM

The original trilogy never really touches on it, but apparently the Empire was oppressing non-human species pretty badly.

This comes across pretty clearly in the original trilogy: the Empire is blatantly dominated by (white, British) humans, while the rebellion as a Mon Calamari as the Admiral of the fleet as well as plenty of other non-humans in its ranks. One of the sad consequences of the prequels is that it makes the rest of the Star Wars universe look bad when in fact the original trilogy had a lot of these more subtle layers to it (which, sometimes, I can’t help but think was accidental).

Comment #53: Tyro  on  12/24  at  02:03 AM

Many’s the time, during 2001-2008, that I looked into my TV screen and said, “There are four lights”.

Comment #54: Dr. Psycho  on  12/24  at  02:18 AM

I’m not so sure that the abolition of slavery would have happened in the 1800s had the revolution not been successful.  One major reason to do this was so the British Navy could disrupt the slave trade on humanitarian grounds, causing damage to the American economy.  However, I’m not an expert on British parliamentary history, and I could be wrong on what guiding principles were involved.  But it’s not inconceivable that entrenched economic interests of the south could have worked against such abolition in an alternate history where no American revolution succeeded (or even occurred).

Comment #55: Zed  on  12/24  at  02:45 AM

Seriously, all the Empire had was Darla and she was fucking Tarkin to get that post (in addition to being ruthless and brilliant).

It’s Daala.  And, yes—-that’s a weird case where he’s not so much promoting her for sleeping with him as helping her avoid being held back by sexism.  In his mind, at least—-he’s very clear in his narrative portions of text that he promoted her for her brilliance and ruthlessness, and that she’s intimate with him is an incidental bonus. 

(She might or might not be sleeping with him in part BECAUSE he promoted her; she wasn’t a viewpoint character in the books I’ve read but seems to convey that she’s genuinely fond of him.  He, on the other hand, specifically doesn’t consider her quite an equal, but it’s because he’s arrogant (no one’s as good as him), and not because he’s sexist.)

The whole thing that they have seems to me like a mentor/prodigy relationship with added sex, personally. 

Tarkin creeps me right the hell out and I have NO idea what she actually saw in him, but I have something of a crush on Vader so I’m really in no position to talk about this.

Comment #56: Kyra  on  12/24  at  03:01 AM

Tarkin creeps me right the hell out and I have NO idea what she actually saw in him.

Hello, he’s Peter Cushing!  He was Van Helsing and Sherlock Holmes.  I’d hit that.

Comment #57: Mnemosyne  on  12/24  at  03:16 AM

Probably it’s the character, rather than the actor, that’s the turnoff; there are moments when he seems almost like I can see someone considering.  But the whole “threaten someone with something truly, unspeakably horrible to get information from them, then once they’ve capitulated, do it anyway” thing . . . the concept of “sometimes obedience isn’t enough to save you” is one that never fails to chill me.

It is my personal impression of the characters that while neither Tarkin nor Vader are overburdened with compassion or mercy, Tarkin enjoys his victims’ suffering somewhat more, whereas Vader more enjoys the fight.  It’s a subtle difference, but it’s there.

Comment #58: Kyra  on  12/24  at  03:26 AM

There. Are.

FOUR.

LIGHTS!

Comment #59: teac  on  12/24  at  03:36 AM

In the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, the one of the main characters on the Sith side of things (Dooku), specifically says that when the Sith take full power, humans will rule and non-humans will be subjegated (this canon, because it’s out of the novelization and Lucas approves it personally).  This is generally the idea in the Original Trilogy, but I suspect that at the time it had more to do with it being cheaper to just put British actors in grey Imperial uniforms that to put British actors in alien makeup and grey Imperial uniforms.  As with many things in the Star Wars Universe, the whole thing seems retrofitted to fit whatever Lucas wanted to get across later.  Like the Luke-Leia thing, or anything from the Prequel Trilogy.

The government of the Old Republic seems to be more royalty and class-based, but the Empire came along and made it all race-based.  I’d call that a lateral move.  But we shouldn’t necessarily be taking lessons on politics from Star Wars when it was based “a long time ago”.  Star Trek is based in the future, where you’d think we would have finally gotten it right, or at least gotten on the right path.

Some right-wing asshat (Jonathon Last, at the Weekly Standard) tried to make an argument back in 2002 that the Empire were really the good guys in the whole thing and the Rebels were just terrorists.  He even justified the genocide of billions on Alderaan.  It was something to behold.

Comment #60: bouj  on  12/24  at  04:45 AM

Some right-wing asshat (Jonathon Last, at the Weekly Standard) tried to make an argument back in 2002 that the Empire were really the good guys in the whole thing and the Rebels were just terrorists.  He even justified the genocide of billions on Alderaan.  It was something to behold.

Let me guess: Alderaan’s people are a pacifist society where there’s no poverty because they take care of everyone and where they are so environmentally conscienscious that they build their cities over the seas so as not to disturb the ecosystem, so they were all a bunch of socialist hippies who deserved to die.

Or, possibly, Alderaan had a socialist, egalitarian, tolerant society that WORKED, so they had to be destroyed because they were providing too positive of an example of progressive principles.

Or maybe Tarkin secretly has a fetish for explosions, and because he’s rich and powerful, he gets whatever he wants.

Comment #61: Kyra  on  12/24  at  06:31 AM

The Empire apologia was written by Jonathan Last at The Weekly Standard.  I’m not giving them a link, google it yourself.

The rationale is that since Leia was lying, Alderaan was probably rebellious.  Therefore, according to Last, if a population might include rebels, it’s a-ok to wipe out the population completely.

Oh, and Tarkin was a dictator but, “a relatively benign one, like Pinochet.”  It’s the Weekly Standard; they’ve never had a problem with any fascist.

Comment #62: Chocolate Covered Cotton  on  12/24  at  07:49 AM

Kind of difficult to affix “abandon sex” to the thread: Captain Kirk got lucky rather often even in the original series, from the late 1960s, to the point where they even showed hi, sitting on the edge of the bed with the lady he just laid in the episode Wink of an Eye. The original series also showed televisions first interracial kiss, between Captain Kirk and Lieutenant Uhura, though it was forced. 

Though it was assumed that it would be Commander Riker who got most of the action in The Next Generation, Captain Picard was shown as not exactly missing out.  Voyager had couples getting together, though that series was wholly ruined by the fixation on Jeri Ryan’s two remaining Borg implants after she joined the cast.  And Deep Space Nine had all sorts of sex-and-soap-opera themes.

Comment #63: Dana  on  12/24  at  08:14 AM

”I’d like to think we’d find a more elegant solution to interpreting the Prime Directive in a way that would still allow for fucking our way across known space”

“Men, I have made it with a hot alien babe, and isn’t that what men have dreamed of since they first looked at the stars?” – Zaph Brannigan

Comment #64: jefft452  on  12/24  at  08:52 AM

”The original series also showed televisions first interracial kiss, between Captain Kirk and Lieutenant Uhura, though it was forced.”

Which is why it didn’t get renewed for another season

Comment #65: jefft452  on  12/24  at  08:54 AM

Um, no.  Star Trek wasn’t renewed for a fourth season because the network, furious that the “Save Star Trek!” campaign had worked after the second season, put the show in the Friday 10:00 pm death slot.  It was going to get shitty ratings, everyone knew it was going to get shitty ratings, and Gene Roddenberry basically said to hell with it and let Fred Freiberger, who had zero knowledge of either science fiction or Star Trek, be the showrunner.  The third season was noticeably worse than the second or the first, the ratings plummeted, and the show was canceled because no one was watching.  The kiss in “Plato’s Stepchildren” was not really a factor.

Little known fact:  the original script called for the kiss to be between Spock and Uhura.  The two characters had flirted several times in the first season, and the kiss was going to pick up on that theme.  William Shatner decided during the first read-through that since HE was the captain, HE was going to get the kiss, and since he was throwing a temper tantrum, the writers gave in and changed the script.  No one except Shatner was especially happy about it, but he was being such a jerk about it that they really didn’t have a choice.

And oh, the scene where Kirk is pulling on his boots after having sex in “Blink of an Eye” isn’t the only time this happened…one of the acts in “This Side of Paradise” ends with Spock and his old girlfriend, played, by Jill Ireland, kissing passionately in a field of mutant alien sunflowers.  The next time we see Spock, he’s changed his clothes.  That was the 1966 equivalent of David Caruso’s bare ass in full view on a Stephen Bochco series, let me tell you…..

Comment #66: Ellid  on  12/24  at  09:14 AM

I’m surprised nobody has picked up on the really telling point in the article under discussion:

The author clearly assumes that Picard is a conservative (by modern standards) precisely because he was “a moral hardass” and “a believable and compelling portrait of ethical uprightness.”

In other words, he makes the pretty blatant assumption that conviction, uprightness, and a willingness to sacrifice for principle is inherently a conservative trait. By extension, liberals are moral jellyfish.

But it ignores that most often, Picard was going to the mat for things like self-determinism, enforcing the Prime Directive, making sure that accused (and often, darn near obviously guilty) people are treated fairly and humanely. He routinely put himself and his ship in danger to rescue people, transport needed drugs and supplies, conduct diplomatic missions, etc.

I think you can make a case that Picard was pretty conservative by the standards of HIS time - where things like the Prime Directive, separation of church and state, and a non-money based system that guaranteed food, housing, and medical care to all were the established norms, but he sure as hell didn’t believe what current conservatives believe.

I’d say Picard is far more an example of a committed and ethical liberal than a conservative.

Comment #67: Lymis  on  12/24  at  10:20 AM

Ellid @66
I’m only going by my far from perfect memory, so I’ll defer to you
But I do remember being pissed at the time because advertisers were freaking out over it and wanted the network to keep the show on a tighter leash
Rodenberry, like Rod Sterling, was able to get away with more because the censors didn’t think of sf as serious so they didn’t keep as close an eye on it

Comment #68: jefft452  on  12/24  at  10:47 AM

You know, I’ve always taken the original Star Wars trilogy as something like Ender’s Game - stories that were primarily about coming of age in a world that’s not the way you want it to be, and only secondarily about the author’s ideology. But once the author gets to be old and successful, they’ve got nothing but that ideology, which in Lucas’s case is a firm commitment to special effects and in Card’s case is the whole right-wing package with special emphasis on pro-natalism. There’s a reason why once people become successful they cease to be able to write effectively about being young and struggling.

Now, my hatred of Star Trek: TNG was well-aired the last time this came up. If an aggressively hygienic universe that looks like a hotel suite and has all the excitement and conflict of a board meeting is really our goal, then I would like to turn in my membership card now. The whole thing reeks of 80s white-people-style multiculturalism: yes, we’re very interested in hearing about your fascinating traditional holiday, but only if we agree that our culture gets to define how everyone acts the entire rest of the year. See: Worf, Troi, Data, pretty much every nonhuman on the ship who is constantly measured against the standards of Human Professionalism.

Babylon 5 was, retroactively, ideologically suspect and kind of poorly written, but it shared with Star Wars that feeling that at no matter what our stupid mistakes, at least we hadn’t made everyone act just like us in the name of getting along.

Comment #69: purpleshoes  on  12/24  at  10:53 AM

I tend to agree with purpleshoes about TNG. It’s really not as interesting a universe as it could be. It doesn’t really make me hate it as much, but I agree with the critique.

I tend to think the attempt to create a Federation-style society would look a lot like the “Firefly” universe.

Comment #70: witless chum  on  12/24  at  11:57 AM

And everyone should check out David Brin on Star Wars v. Star Trek and on Lord of Rings. “Go, Sauron!”

http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/feature/2002/12/17/tolkien_brin/index.html

Comment #71: witless chum  on  12/24  at  12:00 PM

The author clearly assumes that Picard is a conservative (by modern standards) precisely because he was “a moral hardass” and “a believable and compelling portrait of ethical uprightness.”

much of modern conservatism relies on selling a particular behavioral aesthetic to the masses, in part as a marketing ploy (who doesn’t want to vote for an “upright” person?), and in part because an aesthetic of conservative personal behavior and moral uprightness can act as a respectable cover for support of morally disgusting beliefs and policies.

Add to that an aesthetic Stalinism that cuts through modern conservatism where all media needs to be dedicated to serving “the cause”, which works both ways: so not only is art good if it espouses conservatism, they believe that because some art is good on its own merits, it is because that art must somehow be conservative. Potemra is grappling with the problem that he is confronting art that he likes yet does not serve his ideological cause.

Comment #72: Tyro  on  12/24  at  12:07 PM

That said, I never liked Gene Roddenberry’s utopian vision of the future. It always struck me as either a ruthlessly conformist society or that the entire depiction of the star trek universe could be regarded as Federation propaganda, showcasing a perfect, peaceful, clean galaxy as a cover for a place crawling with Harry Mudds, green skinned Orion slave girls, Romulan Ale smuggling, and serial killers pretending to channel Jack the Ripper.

Comment #73: Tyro  on  12/24  at  12:18 PM

Anyone who hasn’t yet, and who has 70 minutes to waste, needs to watch this amazing piece of film criticism regarding Episode One.

To me TNG works best as a cautionary tale. The thin veneer of liberalism covers a deeply conservative and stagnant society. Their respect for others only extends to a set of normalized situations. Watch the episode where Crusher falls for a Trill until it gets put in a female host. Aliens? OK! Same sex? Deeply unsettling. (and don’t get me started on DS9’s mirror-universe lesbians) It’s like these ephemeral liberal values have been enforced on them for so long (by, oh I don’t know… telepathic ‘counselers’) that they’ve lost their liberality and the people themselves, with rare exceptions like Picard, are so shallow that they can’t look beyond their preconceived notions (however admirable those may be in the abstract).

And it’s so very, very sterile. Human artistic endeavors seemed to halt in the 20th century. Picard reads Shakespeare, Ryker plays Jazz, the officers play poker, Data paints in styles of the early 20th century and what little art there is on the walls is the most maudlin abstract expressionism imaginable.

But I will admit, when TNG gets one right it gets it right. Picard’s speech at the end of The Drumhead is Atticus Finch-type cool and the empathy, erudition and (trans)humanity he displays in Darmok makes for one of TV’s best science fiction episodes of all time. The vast majority of the episodes, however, just make me want to beam <strike>the thought police</strike> Deanna Troi into a bulkhead and flush <strike>the voice of reactionaryism</strike> Beverly Crusher out an airlock.

Comment #74: Sarcastro  on  12/24  at  12:36 PM

Watch the episode where Crusher falls for a Trill until it gets put in a female host. Aliens? OK! Same sex? Deeply unsettling.

If we adhere to the laudable notion that we can’t force gays to love people of the other gender no matter how wonderful they are and how much the gay person cares for them—and we do—then why wouldn’t we consistently adhere to it regarding straights and their own gender?

Geek tangent: don’t forget that the Trill isn’t just the same person in a different skin because the symbiote and the host produce a new personality each time, so Crusher isn’t just a straight girl that you’re dissing for not being a lesbian, she’s also a woman that you’re dissing for not immediately falling in love with somebody who isn’t entirely the same person that she was in love with before. /geek tangent

Bear in mind, too, that I dislike the character of Crusher.  She’s frequently a whiny-minded, whiny-voiced perfectionist holier-than-thou so-and-so who gets cut a lot of slack because of her friendship with Picard; he stops dead and defends himself to her frequently in a way that he doesn’t with others.  My favourite Crusher moment is when Q turns her into an Irish Setter, so it says a lot that I’m defending her on this Trill thing.

Comment #75: seeker6079  on  12/24  at  12:54 PM

Add to that an aesthetic Stalinism that cuts through modern conservatism where all media needs to be dedicated to serving “the cause”, which works both ways: so not only is art good if it espouses conservatism, they believe that because some art is good on its own merits, it is because that art must somehow be conservative. Potemra is grappling with the problem that he is confronting art that he likes yet does not serve his ideological cause.

The most hilarious example of this I’ve ever seen was Jonah Goldberg’s contribution to the National Review’s “Best Conservative Movies” list, where he tries to argue that “Groundhog Day” espouses conservative values because it’s about a bad man learning to become a good man, and liberals are bad and conservatives are good, therefore it must be a movie about a liberal learning to become conservative.  Seriously, that’s the extent of his argument.  The other commentators come up with movies that at least have some conservative themes (WOLVERINES!!), but for Goldberg, the only proof needed that a movie is conservative is that Jonah Goldberg likes it.

You gotta feel for the right-wingers who enjoy good books/movies/music.  Almost everybody who makes art that doesn’t suck is a dirty bleeding-heart liberal.  Maybe that’s why the old conservative intelligentsia has been gradually replaced by mouth-breathers who take pride in knowing nothing about the liberal (pah!) arts.

Comment #76: Shaenon  on  12/24  at  03:03 PM

Watch the episode where Crusher falls for a Trill until it gets put in a female host. Aliens? OK! Same sex? Deeply unsettling.

I think that was slightly redeemed on DS9 when Jadzia Dax’s old (female) lover shows up and they fall back into a relationship even though it’s completely forbidden by Trill rules.  Of course, since Jadzia’s trill was male (yes?) maybe that made it slightly less icky for the producers.

All I know is, that goddamned episode made me cry when they said goodbye.

Comment #77: Mnemosyne  on  12/24  at  04:24 PM

I’m coming at it as a fan of TOS and the Holy Trilogy. (TNG and the prequels, not so much at all)

But even when I was writing fanfic, I discovered the more I wrote Luke, the less I trusted Obi-Wan. When I was 9-12, I trusted Obi-Wan implicitly. By 35, I realized he had done his best to turn an innocent into a guided patricidal missile to rid the galaxy of what he saw as his mistakes. The problem was, he picked a person with dreams and ideas of his own. The bit of SW morality I have absorbed comes from fanfiction, Chewbacca’s code of “Protect the Little Ones.” (that means anyone smaller, weaker or less capable in any way)

Original SW is a fairy tale. Star Trek is a series of morality plays, some preachier than others. TOS got preachy. TNG took it to tent-revival levels. Next Generation was much much too liberal and humanistic for my college-aged self. Multicultural. Atheistic. You name it. And people of the time recognized this. It was roundly sneered at by the students at the very conservative engineering school. Even the gamers called it “Star Trek: The Love Boat.”

Comment #78: Angelia Sparrow  on  12/24  at  04:57 PM

It wasn’t that the Dax symbiont (“Jadzia’s trill”) was male, but that in their past relationship, the Dax symbiont was in a male host.  I don’t recall any references ever being made to the symbionts having a gender.

In the last season, after Jadzia was killed and the Dax symbiont placed in Ezra, she was female, and was depicted as having feelings for Worf, Jadzia’a husband, but Worf couldn’t handle it, and that was strictly heretosexual.

Deep Space 9 had the best actual science fiction writing of the whole group, even though there were certainly some stinker episodes.  And for those who don’t like the antiseptic, clean Federation universe, DS9 shows a whole different setting.

Comment #79: Dana  on  12/24  at  05:03 PM

Holy crap, I agree with Dana on something!
DS9 is far and away my favorite Trek incarnation.  It wasn’t sterile, the Feds weren’t always right, there was a fair bit of It’s Ok If You’re a Bajoran, but the text didn’t support its actually being Ok.

Shouldn’t Ezri have been subject to the same taboo if she tried to get with Worf?  But I guess the Symbiosis Commission or Jadzia’s family or whoever wouldn’t have needed to intervene if Worf wasn’t going along with it…

My favorite character is Captain Yates, and I also love Kai Winn and Garak.

Comment #80: lonespark  on  12/24  at  05:25 PM

One thing worth noting is that the elder, wiser Jedi insist that Anakin was recruited too late - he’s too old to start the training, and this will lead to disaster.

In other words, a quality preschool might very well have prevented him from going Sith.

Comment #81: SpectrumRider  on  12/24  at  06:15 PM

In other words, a quality preschool might very well have prevented him from going Sith.

Surely this could be an effective advertising campaign?

Comment #82: lonespark  on  12/24  at  06:25 PM

I also liked the DS9 episode where Jadzia meets the woman who was the lover of one of the previous Dax hosts - I thought it was very interesting that there was never any suggestion that it was a problem that the potential relationship was now a same-sex one - any surprise or disapproval from the other characters focused on the taboo on reprising relationships in that way.  It was nice to see that portrayal of a society where such things are just not an issue for anyone but the people in the relationship.  I believe there was the occasional suggestion in other episodes that Jadzia was bisexual, but it was never a big deal, or something the writers focused on in a gratuitious way. 

Agree about the mirror-universe lesbians though, that was just a lazy, cliche-ridden attempt to get cheap laughs - a disappointment in such a strong series with such good female characters generally.

As for Dr Crusher’s situation - it’s clear it was the sex of the new host that was the problem for her, as she was all excited about meeting her previous lover/husband’s symbiont in the new host, only to be immediately disappointed when the host turned out to be a woman.  I didn’t have a problem with that though - I mean, plenty of people are strictly heterosexual, and having a same-sex relationship would just not be something that they would ever want to do.  It doesn’t make them stupid or bigoted or anything, they’re just not that way inclined.  Same for people who are strictly gay or lesbian.  Yes you would think that the alien thing would be a bigger issue than gender smile  But then the Trill (and most of the other Trek alien races, to be fair) are so human-like that maybe not?

Comment #83: Ephiny  on  12/24  at  06:33 PM

I don’t think the MU lesbians (except weren’t they bisexual?) would have been so bad if there had been any normalized same-sex relationships, or even mentions of them, on the show, but there weren’t and they specifically avoided it and disjointed at least one relationship arc as a result.  Extremely disappointing not to have at the very least, a few minor LGBT human characters in any onscreen canon, and that better be something that changes in the reboot.

Comment #84: lonespark  on  12/24  at  06:39 PM

Knowing what I know now, so would I.  I think blacks and first nations people would have fared a lot better under British rule, and we would’ve eventually become independent.

On the other hand, you wouldn’t know then what you know now, and what you would know then is that British rule = denial of civil liberties.

Comment #85: Rebecca  on  12/25  at  01:51 AM

One thing worth noting is that the elder, wiser Jedi insist that Anakin was recruited too late - he’s too old to start the training, and this will lead to disaster.

In other words, a quality preschool might very well have prevented him from going Sith.

Look, if her mother was too lazy to buy herself out of slavery and send him to a good school, why should the Empire provide? Those death stars aren’t cheap, and raising taxes to support the lazy is irresponsible.

(/wingnut)

As regards ST and lesbianism - perhaps in the future homosexuality has been cured? Before anyone rips me to pieces on that, go read Greg Egan’s Cocoon...

Comment #86: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/25  at  03:54 AM

lonespark wrote:

Holy crap, I agree with Dana on something!

My work here is done—not that it means I’m leaving.  smile

Comment #87: Dana  on  12/25  at  09:39 AM

I got season 5 of DS9 on DVD for Christmas, so life is good.

Comment #88: Dana  on  12/25  at  01:39 PM

I used to really like Star Wars: watched all the movies, read several of the books, have the two KOTOR games. But now that I’m older, I’m starting to see all the problems with it. I’m only acquainted with Star Trek through its new movie, but this piece makes me want to check out the TV series.

And Kirk/Spock is the start of slash fanfiction, so I’m a bit curious about that.

Comment #89: ArtOfMe  on  12/25  at  07:35 PM

Holy crap, I agree with Dana on something!
DS9 is far and away my favorite Trek incarnation.  It wasn’t sterile, the Feds weren’t always right, there was a fair bit of It’s Ok If You’re a Bajoran, but the text didn’t support its actually being Ok.

Yeah, Starfleet actually tried to commit genocide against the Founders, and Sisko and Garak murdered a bunch of Romulans and framed the Dominion to get the Romulans into war.  You’d never see this kind of thing on earlier (or later) incarnations of Trek.  Probably has something to do with the head writer, Ron Moore, who went on to write for the new Battlestar Gallactica

Comment #90: robelanator  on  12/25  at  09:57 PM

ArtofMe - Kirk/Spock was indeed the first known slash fanfiction.  One thing to be aware of before you Google K/S, though:  the relationship in TOS was *much* slashier than in the relaunch.  The authors were completely unaware of this, to the point that Gene Roddenberry wrote an introduction to the novelization of the first movie saying so,* but it’s really evident.  You might want to watch the first two seasons of TOS first.

*The intro is allegedly by Admiral Kirk, and is followed by a first scene that is so slashy that if Gene Roddenberry weren’t notorious for being a womanizer you’d think he was gay or at least bisexual.

Comment #91: Ellid  on  12/26  at  11:36 AM

@Ellid: Oh, I have started watching TOS. I like it better than the new movie. There are some issues with it, due to the time period it was made in—such as treatment of women on the show—but I like what I’ve seen. I like the characters of Kirk and Spock better in TOS than the relaunch movie too.

I don’t consider myself a slash fan over anything else, but I see slash fanfiction as a cultural product similar to LGBT published fiction.

And having watched 10 episodes of TOS, I ship it like mad. I consider myself an official geek girl now for finding Spock attractive (neither of the leads in the new movie caught my eye, and I didn’t really ship them in that).

I watched that 70 minute review of Star Wars: The Phantom Menace from upthread, and it made me realize how ridiculously bad that movie is. I like the original Star Wars films, but the new ones seem like a lot of flash and not much substance. (The use of violence against women as a joke in those reviews are completely unnecessary and disturbing, though).

Comment #92: ArtOfMe  on  12/26  at  06:54 PM

http://www.allbyer.com
Hi,Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,Here are the most popular, most stylish and avant-garde shoes,handbags,Tshirts, jacket,Tracksuit w ect…Nike Air Jordan(1-25)/Jordan Six Ring/Jordan Fusion/Nike Shox/Air Max/AF1/Dunk: $32
Polo/Ed Hardy/Lacoste/Ca/A&F;……T-shirt: Coach /Gucci/Lv/Ed Hardy/D&G;/Fendi ……Handbag:$35
Christian Louboutin/Lv/Ed Hardy/Gucci/Coach/Lacoste/ Timbland……Shoe :$35 True Religion/Coogi/Evisu/Ed Hardy/Prada ……Jeans:$30
New era/Gucci/Ed hardy ……cap : $13 Okely/Coach/D&G;/Fendi/Gucci/Armani ……sunglass : $15 Nike shoes: 32 $, True Religion jeans: 30 $, Ed Hardy, t-shirts: 12 $, NFL Jersey: 20 $, Boots UGG: 50… For details, please consult http://www.allbyer.com T54^5*U56u

Comment #93: Knox1986  on  12/28  at  12:08 PM

“David Brin had a fairly insightful piece on this subject way back in the day. “

It wasn’t insightful -unless you consider a steaming pile of horseshit from the loser who wrote The Postman to be insightful. Michael Wong exposed Brin as a lying putz here:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/Brin.html

Comment #94: Jelperman  on  12/30  at  12:57 AM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.