Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Things Like Rape: Not Being Raped At All Previous entry: The Peter calls for KO’s removal as NFL commentator, fixates on Dan Savage

Statistical arguments don’t have to be dry and ineffective

Via Paul at Lawyers, Guns, and Money, Kevin Drum—-while agreeing that we shouldn’t overreact to terrorist campaigns—-basically says such an overreaction from the public is inevitable.

First, this line of argument — that terrorism is statistically harmless compared to lots of other activities — will never work. For better or worse, it just won’t. So we should knock it off.

Second, even in the realm of pure logic it really doesn’t hold water. The fundamental fear of terrorism is that it’s not just random or unintentional, like car accidents or (for most of us) the threat of homicide. It’s carried out by people with a purpose.

Actually, the fear of terrorism is the threat of homicide, and that’s why it gets blown out of proportion for some people, particularly those with narcissistic tendencies (see: conservatives) that make it hard to calculate risk.  Fear of the unknown especially blows this fear of danger out of proportion—-I was actually warned by some people, when I moved to New York, about the dangers of subway accidents, even though my actual danger of getting killed in transport is exponentially lower riding the subway than it ever was driving a car or riding a bike around cars.  I would definitely say the fear of homicide is number one in driving irrational behavior—-that’s why so many suburban types completely lose their shit at the very idea of living in a city, especially one that has a high homicide rate, even though most of the time the high homicide rate is due to issues like fighting over drug dealing territory or domestic violence situations, both of which aren’t going to kill you if they don’t involve you.  (Not to downplay the importance of those issues, but for those not involved, the concern is due to empathy and compassion, not fear for your own hide.)  I would argue the very people who freak out at the idea of even visiting a big city with a high murder rate, even though the chance of them getting killed by murder is below their chance of getting killed traveling to and around the city, are the very same people who get sucked into the high drama of Terrorball.

But the real question here is: Does pointing this out work?  Kevin is adamant that it doesn’t, and therefore we should cut it out.  Which seems extreme to me—-we should only cut it out with haste if it’s counterproductive, if pointing out low risk somehow increases fear.  I see no evidence to suggest that it does, honestly.  And the promotion of these statistics, even if it doesn’t “work” to immediately cause people to calm the fuck down, does have other effects that are useful.  For one thing, it gives us a way not to cede ground to conservatives.  Just the appearance that they’re winning is something that helps them win, so we should be making arguments and not backing down, even if the arguments themselves don’t have any magic power to change a whole lot of minds immediately.  It also gives people who are skeptical of Terrorball more reason to be skeptical, and helps put them further into our camp.  It can inform policy response, which in turn influences public opinion.

All that said, I think the fundamental error Kevin is making is that he, like a lot of us, has absorbed the idea that because conservatives say that intellectual, rational arguments are de facto dispassionate means that they are.  Well, not just conservatives, even.  That’s a myth that’s shot through our society, but conservatives really push it hard at times like these, because the less thinking people do, the better conservatives do.  I 100% agree with Kevin that unless an argument can be bundled up into an emotion that makes it relateable to people, then it won’t go anywhere.  But the “terrorism really isn’t much of a threat, statistically speaking” argument can be conveyed with atuite relateable emotions, especially right now.  Two major ones that are pretty damn effective come to mind. 


1) Don’t be a pants pisser! Conservatives gain a lot of power by playing like they’re Big, Powerful Men.  But the problem is that this directly conflicts with panicking over what are relatively marginal threats, no matter what Maureen Dowd says.  The statistical arguments can and should be coupled with a cool bravery, of the sort that has sold 90% of action movies since they started making action movies.  The hero (and sometimes heroine, finally) stares the scary monster in the eye, shrugs coolly, and dispatches with them without pissing their pants or showing fear.  (We’ve been rewatching “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” at my house, and I can tell you that the show really took a turn for the better when they started to portray Buffy as cool and invincible at times, like when she blew The Judge up with a bazooka.)  Even W. knew that he had to act resolute and unafraid in the days after 9/11.  What the Republicans were smart about doing was insisting that everyone else act like panicked children, but I think it’s as appealing, probably more appealing, to act like an intelligent, courageous adult.  And the stats can back you up.

The other emotion that we can put into play is shame.  Those who panic, especially in light of these damning statistics, are pants-pissing infants, afraid of the dark.  Using the statistics, this argument shaming conservatives is very helpful, especially since most of them have a big thing about seeming like big, powerful men (and their stalwart ladies).  That they are anything but is a powerful point to make, and we shouldn’t shy away from making it, armed with statistical proof.

2) Airport security is a joke.
Right now, the zeitgeist is more about annoyance at security hassles than it is fear of terrorism.  After 9/11, that calculation may have been different, but right now, everyone’s sick and tired of the bullshit.  The diaper bomber’s failed attempts to start a fire on a plane were meant to hurt Americans not just due to the symbolism of attacking on a cherished holiday, but also to strike fear by maximizing the number of people tied up in security headaches at the airport.  My sense is that it did the opposite; it made people even more annoyed at how pointless and silly the whole security theater thing is.  The contrast between the very real danger that you would miss a flight because of all the nonsense (and then be stuck in Holiday Traveling Hell) and the very distant, unlikely danger of a dangerous terrorist attack was heightened.  Everyone I spoke to about the situation, no matter where they fell on the political spectrum, focused entirely on the silliness of it all.  The horror stories were not of terrorism, but of relatives that were nearly prevented from going home after a dog died because of security theater, relatives that were erroneously put on no fly lists because someone with a similar name once called a flight attendant a nasty name, things like that. 

Jesse noted this earlier:

Look.  I live an hour from Detroit.  I spend time in Detroit.  People around here are not particularly scared.  In fact, they’re more annoyed at the new ridiculous TSA guidelines than they are afraid that Barack Obama is going to let planes blow up out of a morbid and detached curiosity about the physics of concussive force in midair.

In other words, security theater—-especially after 8 years of such intense, often embarrassing security theater—-is losing its power to keep people afraid, and instead is starting to be seen as a real injustice.  And therefore it highlights the real conflict between justice and security. The time is ripe to move on this point, and really drive home people’s sense that justice and fairness is being sold out for statistically minor risks. 

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:18 AM • (72) Comments

I really have nothing to add, so I just wanted to say, outstanding post.  It’s past time to start fighting back at the bedwetters with relentless mockery.

Comment #1: Steve LaBonne  on  01/11  at  11:21 AM

Drum’s just wrong, at least when it comes to face-to-face conversations with people. Maybe those arguments don’t work as well when written online, where people are able to skim and read (or misread) only what they want to, but face-to-face, when you mention that you’re more scared of getting in traffic with the idiots on I-95 than getting blown up on or in a plane, they get it. We live lives fraught with real danger and we deal with it like it’s nothing—we just don’t realize it most of the time.

Comment #2: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  01/11  at  12:00 PM

What are you talking about!  We absolutely must subject ourselves to every variety of racial, ethinic, and religious profiling as well as the most invasive searches possible to prevent another person from ineffectively setting fire to his own genitals while on board an aircraft!

Comment #3: Andy  on  01/11  at  12:13 PM

Yup.

And what Incertus said.  I’ve had conversations with conservative relatives that are inclined to be bedwetters about “Terrah”, and when it’s pointed out that they are far more likely to be killed by a zillion things other than scary bearded Muslims on a plane, they kind of say, “Huh… I guess you have a point.”

The biggest obstacle to effectively getting this message out is the rhetoric of idiots in the MSM like Maureen Dowd, who only reinforce these highly irrational fears.  And though she doesn’t deserve it, she has a greater ability to shape public opinion (by virtue of being a NYT columnist) than most of us will ever have.

Comment #4: DTG in STL  on  01/11  at  12:15 PM

In my personal experience, becoming aware of my biases is a necessary precondition to overcoming them.  Therefore yes, we should absolutely continue to raise awareness of the fact that airplane terrorism is not a big deal anymore (since commercial airliners can no longer be hijacked and used as guided missiles)

Nuclear, biological and chemical attacks are still something to worry about, and we should be keeping our security focused on those threats, rather than on pointless, expensive, and civil-liberty-corrosive airport security.

Comment #5: BABH  on  01/11  at  12:15 PM

considering that more than 100 people die from lack of affordable health care every day we’ve had more than 7 ‘splodey flight 253s since then from easily preventable sources

Comment #6: preznit giv me turkee  on  01/11  at  12:21 PM

The fundamental fear of terrorism is that it’s not just random or unintentional, like car accidents or (for most of us) the threat of homicide. It’s carried out by people with a purpose.

This doesn’t even make complete sense.

Almost all car accidents are random and unintentional.

A large number of homicides are specific and intentional.

Homicides caused by terrorism are both random and intentional.  Al Qaeda’s goal on 9/11 was to kill as many people as possible, but there wasn’t any specific person that they were trying to kill, other than people who worked at the Pentagon and the World Trade Center.  I mean… it wasn’t as if they aimed the plane at the 87th floor so that they could specifically kill John Smith who worked for Company X, located on the 87th floor.

In many ways, homicides caused by Islamic terrorists aren’t much different than a lot of homicides caused by random school and workplace shootings.  The killer isn’t necessarily looking to kill any one particular person, they just want to kill people at the location of their target, regardless of who the people killed are.

Anyway, to the extent that the people working in the WTC and Pentagon that day hadn’t done anything personally to anger Al Qaeda to explain their homicide, I can somewhat get the fear involved.

I mean, if I had a relative or close friend who had actually lost someone that day, I would have been pretty hesitant to call them a “bedwetter” the first time they ever rode a plane after 9/11 if they expressed nervousness about it.

The randomness of the deaths on 9/11 means that death by terrorism could theoretically happen to any of us at any time.  But the same can also be said about being killed by a sudden lightning strike from a storm that comes out of nowhere, or a car accident in which some drunk driver runs a red light going 60 mph and plows into you as you are passing through the intersection.

These things “could” happen to any of us at any time.  But for 99.99% of us, they never will happen to us.  And while I try to be a more defensive driver when I’m out late at night or the road conditions are poor, I don’t drive around in constant terror that some drunk driver is going to plow into me and kill me everytime I get in my car.

Comment #7: DTG in STL  on  01/11  at  12:38 PM

I do think the human mind is wired to be more horrified by murder than any other cause of death, and that’s not only something you can’t get around, but probably a good thing overall.  Our abhorrence of violence is about more than stopping direct harm, but also about keeping the peace and our wits about us.  That said, abhorrence of murder doesn’t have to equal pants-pissing fear.  In fact, if we keep our eyes on justice, then we can understand the evils of murder much more than if we focus on fear.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/11  at  12:38 PM

I have to disagree somewhat with your first option.  If the goal is to point out that conservatives are contradictory and hypocritical, then shaming them might help, although it’s doubtful that people who don’t already realize this will ever be convinced otherwise.  If your goal is to actually convince people of something, insulting them tends to make them defensive, so they’re much more likely to hold onto their preconceived beliefs, even going to ridiculous extents to justify them.

Comment #9: bananacat  on  01/11  at  12:41 PM

“All that said, I think the fundamental error Kevin is making is that he, like a lot of us, has absorbed the idea that because conservatives say that intellectual, rational arguments are de facto dispassionate means that they are.”

Even if an argument happens to be dispassionate, that doesn’t mean it’s automatically wrong.

And an argument made from pure, mindless passion doesn’t automatically make it correct.  (See the anti-abortion nuts, Iraq, tax cuts for the wealthy, and anything the Teabaggers babble about…)

***

If only the Founding Fathers could see us now. 

They’d probably deny they had anything to do with creating America.

But first they’d go Guy Fawkes on the Senate…

Comment #10: MikeEss  on  01/11  at  12:42 PM

I have been trying to figure this stuff out.  Digby has been highlighting some truly astoundingly foolish comments from our gliterati, including Roger Aisles and Thomas Friedman. 

And part of me suspects they are suffering from untreated mental illness, including severe paranoia.  But my other suspicion is far more insidious, after all mental illness is mental illness, other than trying to get someone treatment, you can only have sympathy for them.

When I was in grade school, very early on, maybe 1st or 2nd grade, I used to like to get bathroom passes after class started so I could walk through the halls alone.  No one else was in sight!  I used to love to pretend that I was in the Mod Squad, and I’d run around corners and make dives and all that.  It was very exciting!  Then.

I fear that these fools are so fucking pampered and so fucking board, and so fucking arrogant, that there is a real thrill about pretending they will be personally targeted by terrorists.  Like Roger Aisles, they can ride around in motorcades surrounded by armed guards.  Their lives could end at any moment!

Really, a lot of this could be solved if these fucking idiots had something to actually worry over.  You know, like getting a job, keeping a job, paying rent, paying the electric bill.

What these people need is some worries.

Comment #11: JennyLI  on  01/11  at  12:44 PM

If your goal is to actually convince people of something, insulting them tends to make them defensive, so they’re much more likely to hold onto their preconceived beliefs, even going to ridiculous extents to justify them.

The direct object of shaming might react that way, sure, but the direct objects will never be convinced.  Creating a general climate of shaming around being a pants-pissing conservative can be *very* effective.  If you have any doubts about it, look at how effectively conservatives have disempowered liberals and feminists by shaming people for identifying as either.  Trying to shame me for being a feminist won’t work, of course, but it’s extremely and sadly effective at keeping other women afraid to engage with feminism.  In those cases, it’s an awful thing to do.  But we can use the same tactics to help people towards rational thinking, instead of away from it.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/11  at  12:47 PM

f the goal is to point out that conservatives are contradictory and hypocritical, then shaming them might help, although it’s doubtful that people who don’t already realize this will ever be convinced otherwise.  If your goal is to actually convince people of something, insulting them tends to make them defensive, so they’re much more likely to hold onto their preconceived beliefs, even going to ridiculous extents to justify them.
Comment #9: catgirl on 01/11 at 10:41 AM

Like a well told joke, I think it’s all in the delivery, Catgirl.  I don’t think Amanda is saying one goes to a party, hears that fear of terror and shouts, “You’re a sissy wetpants for thinking that.”  More like, ““oh, I worried about that, too. Then I realized that there’s a greater chance of dying from tripping over the cat on the way to the bathroom at night.”  And everyone chuckles, you’ve made yourself the butt of the joke, but layed out the argument and a rational persons response. (This also works when convincing someone to go to a music venue or restaurant in a less than crime pristine location.

Comment #13: phylosopher  on  01/11  at  01:00 PM

Though I will call Amanda (and others) out for suggesting shaming as an effective tool for behavior change - a suggestion for which she has in the past castigated others.

Comment #14: phylosopher  on  01/11  at  01:02 PM

But the problem is that this directly conflicts with panicking over what are relatively marginal threats, no matter what Maureen Dowd says.  The statistical arguments can and should be coupled with a cool bravery, of the sort that has sold 90% of action movies since they started making action movies.

Maureen Dowd isn’t a fan of action movies, but rather a fan of romantic comedies. This is why the idea of a “no-drama” Obama (or any other person) is repugnant to her: she craves needless drama, to the point where she wants to turn her own life into a standard-issue rom-com.

Unfortunately, a lot of Americans, either understandably bored with their bland exurban lives or simply chaos-addicted psychopaths, are on board with that approach to life.

Right now, the zeitgeist is more about annoyance at security hassles than it is fear of terrorism.

Absent any evidence that these increasing security theatre acts make anyone safer, but taking into account the not insignificant amount of money wasted on these TSA productions, my only conclusion is that their primary purpose (even more than demonstrating the power of the state in civil rights grey zones) is a misguided attempt to indirectly foster further resentment against Islamic fundamentalists—as if that’s needed at this point for 99% of Americans.

Comment #15: Gracchus.  on  01/11  at  01:03 PM

The direct object of shaming might react that way, sure, but the direct objects will never be convinced.  Creating a general climate of shaming around being a pants-pissing conservative can be *very* effective.

It’s worth noting that, at this point and in my experience, perception of the absurdity (or necessity) of security theatre has largely transcended politics, at least amongst non-pundits and non-politicians. Yes, conservatives are more likely to be bed-wetting drama queens, but unfortunately there’s also a smalle contingent of liberals who will happily give up their essential liberties to purchase a little temporary safety (at least as long as their boyfriend Obama is in office).

Comment #16: Gracchus.  on  01/11  at  01:10 PM

Can we please stop using “exponentially” as a fancy-pants synonym for “incredibly”.  That’s not what it means.  It has a very specific meaning when talking about how functions scale when taking limits.  If you’re just talking about constants, it really doesn’t make sense to use it.

Comment #17: wnoise  on  01/11  at  01:41 PM

Unfortunately, pants-wetting is non-partisan.  The contingent of frightened liberals is not as small as we might hope.  This Daily Kos readers poll posted on December 29th has only a 45% plurality against full-body scanning at airports.  39% think this is a “necessary” security measure.  I was pretty shocked when I saw that, and I can only hope that within a week or two most of these people will have calmed down and regained perspective on the Christmas Day incident.

Comment #18: BABH  on  01/11  at  01:41 PM

@17: As a math and language nerd myself, I rather like the use of “exponentially” here.  By using a math-y word to compare the risk of terror attack to the risk of a car accident, Amanda reinforces the point that the fear of terrorism is irrational (un-mathematical).  A more precise but less well-known mathematical term (like “orders of magnitude,” for example) wouldn’t have the same emotional impact.

Comment #19: BABH  on  01/11  at  01:49 PM

If you’re upset about how “exponentially” is being used here, you’d hate to see what I do with “median”.

Comment #20: bomberE  on  01/11  at  01:56 PM

Though I will call Amanda (and others) out for suggesting shaming as an effective tool for behavior change - a suggestion for which she has in the past castigated others.

I hope you’re not drawing a parallel between the discussion here (using peer pressure and a little gentle disdain to highlight the ridiculousness of panicky irrational people in an effort to restore a little rational national discourse) with, for example, slut-shaming (using everything from peer pressure up to actual legislation to make sure those filthy women keep their whorin’ legs shut.) ‘Cause that’s silly. Outside influence from peers *is* an effective behavior-modification tool but like any tool it matters what you use it for—getting people to calm the fuck down about Muslims and address matters of personal liberty versus safety intelligently seems like an excellent use, and not at all like whipping people up into a panic about sexting or something like that.

Comment #21: Bagelsan  on  01/11  at  02:08 PM

“Unfortunately, pants-wetting is non-partisan.  The contingent of frightened liberals is not as small as we might hope.  This Daily Kos readers poll posted on December 29th has only a 45% plurality against full-body scanning at airports.  39% think this is a “necessary” security measure.”

...ooookay.

Are they cool with getting a body cavity search before getting on a bus?  Before entering a mall, a sports stadium, or a theater?  How about a body cavity search before entering that large (how large?) office building?  Since cars and trucks are large and dangerous, how about checkpoints around town and on freeways where body cavity searchs are performed on drivers?  How about not only a National Identity Card (with a corresponding tatooed barcode on your neck or forehead, or better, your right palm), but requiring government authorization before leaving your house (“May vee see your travel papers, please?”).  Mandatory RFID chips implanted at birth to constantly track your movements?...

Is there a limit to “necessary” security measures some people will tolerate?

Comment #22: MikeEss  on  01/11  at  02:09 PM

I think it was Mary Wollstonecraft who said that emotion should flow from reason.  Or something like that.  I know she was writing it in response to a pants-pissing conservative of her own time (Edmund Burke).  Anyway, I’m totally with the shaming thing.  In this case it’s not only warranted, but necessary.  As Amanda says, look at how righties have made being librul or progressive an ostensible badge of shame.  (I nearly had to smack a friend in the face recently for saying that he isn’t a liberal because he ‘doesn’t hug trees.’)  So I say fuck the pants-pissers.  Shame them gently or shame them brutally, but don’t hold back.  As a nation we’re too deep into self-immolating cowardice to imagine that we can afford to play nice.

Comment #23: Sam Holloway  on  01/11  at  02:12 PM

The emotional pull of loss-aversion (which is what the pissy-pants ZXOMG Terror! folks are experiencing) is really very hard to dislodge, even with reason. Even knowing that you’re more likely to get creamed in the car than blown up on a plane gets filtered through your amygdala as, “Yeah, but I can control my car, and I can’t control undiebombers, so: WHAT IF?!?”

Really, the only way to counteract it is to replace one loss-aversion with another, more immediate one. Say, calling a tuff-on-terror pol a scaredy cat. Because one’s manhood is always and forever so much more vulnerable than one’s life.

Comment #24: benvolio  on  01/11  at  02:29 PM

Gracchus:  “It’s worth noting that, at this point and in my experience, perception of the absurdity (or necessity) of security theatre has largely transcended politics, at least amongst non-pundits and non-politicians.”

Yes, but conservatives think, “it’s a problem because I, a white middle-class person, am getting searched, while some brown people are allowed to fly unmolested.”  Or ignorant “why are they searching this baby, it’s not a terrorist,” when any police will tell you that’s where a lot of people with kids like to hide their drugs when traveling, so it’s not a dumb place to look for something someone might want to hide.

The first is probably why liberals aren’t as up in arms against full-body scanning as you might think; if bodies are being scanned for explosives and not the wrong color skin, it’s actually less offensive, though of course there’s still that pesky “doesn’t actually do anything to help” problem. 

The problem with the statistical argument is that there’s no cost/benefit balance with terrorism.  We lose X lives lost to car, plane, train accidents as a cost of having the benefit of cars, planes, and trains.  Lightning we can’t do anything about; the benefit is being allowed to go outside, which few would argue with except during a severe lightning storm.

Terrorism is where someone else makes you bear the cost of something you personally can’t control and don’t benefit from.  You can’t just unilaterally decide not to participate in terrorism.

Comment #25: oldfeminist  on  01/11  at  02:33 PM

When you have kids, you get everybody’s irrational and statistically unjustified fears piled on your head as BAD PARENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let your kid walk to school: OMFG DON"T YOU KNOW SEX FREAKS WILL GRAB HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (50 instances/year, nationally)

Let your kid use public transit: OMFG DON’T YOU CARE ABOUT HIM TO DRIVE HIM EVERYWHERE POOR KID WITH IRRESPONSIBLE PARENTS NOT DRIVING HIM EVERYWHERE (risk of car accident >>> bus accident)

... and so on.

Comment #26: Ms Kate  on  01/11  at  02:35 PM

I think most people like Roger Ailes, Dick Cheney, et al. get the murder rate truth (if you’re not a drug dealer/buyer or involved in organized crime, you’re unlikely to be a target).  They understand that by virtue of being white males who live in affluent areas, they’re unlikely to be a victim of homicide.

The reason why “Terrah” gets to them is because it happens on nice clean airplanes or freeways that they could be on, rather than in dirty ghettos that they naturally avoid.  That’s combined with the narcissism that they see themselves as “real americans”, and if there’s anyone who terrorists would love to target, it’s the “real americans”.

Comment #27: The Main Gauche of Mild Reason  on  01/11  at  02:35 PM

If you can’t tell a discussion taking place within a precise mathematical or statistical context from a broader discussion of social issues, we can’t help you.

Comment #28: Ms Kate  on  01/11  at  02:37 PM

Oh, and for once I agree with Chet here. 

I’d be entirely cool with back-scatter X-ray body scans if it would prevent physical searching at airports and bus stops. I find it a lot less invasive for someone I can’t see, and who can’t see me, to view a backscatter x-ray through my clothing than to be groped by a stranger.

At least two rape/incest survivors I personally know also think that the back-scatter is less triggering than a feel-down. 

However, YMMV.  I think you should be given the choice of the two. The one time that I had to be patted down, I was cool with it.  I knew it was going to happen, though, since I bought a one-way ticket on a cross country flight with two hours notice.

Comment #29: Ms Kate  on  01/11  at  02:41 PM

Al Qaeda’s goal on 9/11 was to kill as many people as possible,

It was also their goal to rip the country apart.  I still remember hearing Osama claiming that the US would become so terrified that it would break into individual states, and laghing at how little he understood us.

Look at us today…red states and blue states and 10thers and Seceders.  All because instead of addressing real security issues, our politicians and leaders did their best to fan the flames of fear.

Pretty much right now I hate anyone who whines about needing naked people xrays just to get on a plane.  Cowards.  Over a third of this country is cowardly assholes who are happy to forfeit their birthrights for the illusion of “security”.

As for shaming them?  Go for it.  When people are being irrational assholes, they should be loudly denounced.  I’m sick and tired of assholes saying shit and no one asking follow up questions or validating or verifying anything. 

The chance of you dying in an airline related terrorist act is negligible.  It’s not worth taking your shoes off for.  It’s not worth having to buy and waste pricey shampoo at your location rather than bringing your own from home.  It’s not remotely worth forbidding a fellow human the right to use the bathroom.

This use of shaming is, of course, completely different from blaming a rape victim for causing her own rape by being such a slutty mcslut slut.  The rapists should be shamed and shunned, and the complaint against slut-shaming is that it is blaming victims and conscribing their actions and apparell to “safe” behavior, when absolutely nothing has ever stopped rapists from raping.

Comment #30: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/11  at  02:52 PM

“I’d be entirely cool with back-scatter X-ray body scans if it would prevent physical searching at airports and bus stops. I find it a lot less invasive for someone I can’t see, and who can’t see me, to view a backscatter x-ray through my clothing than to be groped by a stranger.”

...which misses the point I’m trying to make.  These technologies are intrusive no matter what.  But many American will tolerate them because flying isn’t something they do every day.

But what makes airplanes more special than any other random grouping of humans that can be exploited for terrorism? 

300 people on one plane = Six buses carrying 50 people

300 people on one plane < 5000 people at a high school football game

300 people on one plane < the population of a city that could have its water supply poisoned

300 people on one plane = 300 people on one train

300 people on one plane < # of workers in any decent sized building (government or private)

Would you be “cool with back-scatter X-ray body scans”, with accompanying sniffing by bomb dogs, a physical patdown, and x-rays of everything you bring in with you when going to or using any of these things?...

Comment #31: MikeEss  on  01/11  at  02:54 PM

“But if we must have intrusive security theater - and it seems we must…”

Who says we must?  I guarantee you that no matter what security measures are put in place, there will still be ways to exploit them and get contraband through.  And we haven’t even really started on how intrusive the security we are subject to can get.

No matter what is being done, there are always more security measures that can be taken.  The ultimate endpoint is when we’re all defacto under house arrest.  (And no Internet access either, ‘cause we have to address network and data security…)

I prefer to keep 1984 as a cautionary work of fiction, not a roadmap of how a police state should work…

Comment #32: MikeEss  on  01/11  at  03:21 PM

Though I will call Amanda (and others) out for suggesting shaming as an effective tool for behavior change - a suggestion for which she has in the past castigated others.

I think you misunderstand me.  I think shaming is inevitable.  I just argue with shaming when the goal is to alter behavior that doesn’t need to be altered, such as being a sexually active woman.  But if you do something truly shameful, then I don’t have a problem with shame.  Like men who promote rape culture behavior need to be ashamed.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/11  at  03:36 PM

I will say that the word “shame” is so associated with sexual shame in our culture that it’s startling to have it noted that we actually shame each other in countless ways, and often for the greater good.  We shame for not giving up seats to pregnant women, for cutting in line, for forgetting your mother’s birthday, etc.  The word is loaded because it’s used so often to used to denote a particularly ugly and destructive behavior—-making feel bad for stuff that they shouldn’t feel bad about—-but I meant it here in the more mundane sense.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/11  at  03:42 PM

Really, the only way to counteract it is to replace one loss-aversion with another, more immediate one. Say, calling a tuff-on-terror pol a scaredy cat. Because one’s manhood is always and forever so much more vulnerable than one’s life.

Well, I’d also add that security theater makes people feel helpless and frustrated, too—-in fact, that’s the point.  But it also means it heightens the sense of risk (OMG WHAT IF I MISS MY FLIGHT?), and that’s not nothing.  It’s easy to piss on that, but as the holiday season demonstrates, people can, and I think for good reason, get really bent out of shape if their holiday is ruined.  That’s a cost, and it needs to be well considered.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/11  at  03:45 PM

But what makes airplanes more special than any other random grouping of humans that can be exploited for terrorism?

Well, while I agree with your point in general, there is one critical difference between an airplane and the other examples you provided.

You can’t safely decide to exit an airplane midway through the flight.

While it’s certainly very dangerous to jump off a moving train or a moving bus, the chances of surviving such a thing are far higher than the chances of leaping out of an airplane at 30,000 feet without a parachute and surviving.

Anyway, I generally agree with the gist of your argument, but there is a little less mobility involved with being stuck on an airplane compared to being stuck in any of the other scenarios you presented.

And for what it’s worth, I don’t oppose ALL security measures used in air travel… I have no problem with the use of magnetometers, for instance, or the ban on carrying firearms onto an airplane - measures which existed long before 9/11.

I just think that most of the security measures we’ve added since 9/11/01 aren’t substantially more effective than the security measures we already had in place prior to that day.

The only post-9/11 security measure we’ve taken in regards to air travel that appears to be potentially useful in possibly preventing future hijackings is the deadbolting of cockpit doors on airplanes.  Aside from that, I wouldn’t have changed much of anything.  And as far as I know, boxcutters weren’t permissable on airplanes pre-9/11 either… but you can’t prevent all instances of human negligence in security checkpoints.

Comment #36: DTG in STL  on  01/11  at  03:53 PM

I think it’s the perception of being trapped that makes airplanes so exciting to terrorists.  Of course, further constraints on our bodies and freedom to get on them only increases this sensation, and makes terrorists more interested in planes.

Comment #37: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/11  at  04:00 PM

“I just think that most of the security measures we’ve added since 9/11/01 aren’t substantially more effective than the security measures we already had in place prior to that day.”

I agree, but apparently there are an awful lot of Americans who don’t, and are willing to tolerate even more intrusive security theater in an effort to control their fears.

I think if those measures (as used at airports) were imposed universally wherever human beings gathered in significant groups, the burden and the true cost of pretending we can make ourselves 100% safe at all times would become more apparent, and maybe some of the more thoughtful might question the wisdom of making people take off their shoes (for example)...

Comment #38: MikeEss  on  01/11  at  04:07 PM

...and I’m not advocating extending those measures to all human existence, I just think it’s tolerated because it’s seen as being entirely limited to air travel…

Comment #39: MikeEss  on  01/11  at  04:10 PM

I think it’s the perception of being trapped that makes airplanes so exciting to terrorists.

I’d argue that it’s more than just perception, though.  Once the plane is in flight, you don’t just feel trapped, you literally are trapped.  Unless you have a parachute, there is no realistic way to safely exit an airplane in flight and survive.

It is for this reason that I don’t categorically oppose all security measures used in commercial flight (ie magnetometers and gun bans), just the ridiculous lengths we’re going to in an effort to prevent any possible instance of a terrorist incident on an airplane.

I think the issue here isn’t whether or not there is such a thing as a reasonable amount of security measures we can take - I think there is - but where exactly it is that we cross the line from taking reasonable measures into taking ridiculous and invasive measures.

In my opinion, pre-9/11 security measures were generally reasonable.  I don’t mind a little bit of inconvenience in boarding a plane if it can reduce the possibility of bad things happening on the plane.  Expecting people to pass through a magnetometer to ensure they aren’t carrying firearms onto a plane doesn’t seem unreasonable to me.  It is with the implementation of most of the post-9/11 security measures that have crossed into the realm of being ridiculous and unnecessarily invasive.

Comment #40: DTG in STL  on  01/11  at  04:14 PM

#7: These things “could” happen to any of us at any time.  But for 99.99% of us, they never will happen to us.  And while I try to be a more defensive driver when I’m out late at night or the road conditions are poor, I don’t drive around in constant terror that some drunk driver is going to plow into me and kill me everytime I get in my car.

Because if they happen to us, we’re dead, and we don’t post any more.

And when it happens to someone else, it’s a few column inches or a 15-second sound bite on the 11 p.m. news.  Our tendency to assume it won’t happen to us is based on this.  Our tendency to worry about terrorism and the like is based on the fact that every time an incident (even a non-fatal one) happens, TV, radio, and print are filled with stories about it.

I’ve known a number of people who’ve been killed in car crashes.

By comparison, I was working 3 blocks from the World Trace Center on Sept. 11, and I even knew some people who worked there, but I didn’t know anyone who died there.  What’s more, as far as I have been able to tell, I don’t know anyone who knew anyone who died there.

So, based on my personal experience, car crashes are a far more real danger than terrorism.  It’s only in news-media-land that terrorism is a bigger threat than car crashes.

Comment #41: AMM  on  01/11  at  04:22 PM

The thing about backscatter scans is that they’re way, way more intrusive to some people than to others. Chet never has to worry about trying to pass through security (and a backscatter scan) wearing a tampon or pad. Or with a colostomy bag. Or, for older scan models, identifying and presenting as female but having male genitals.

So it’s not like it’s any sort of “Meh, it won’t DO anything, but at least it won’t HARM anyone” option.

Comment #42: kristin  on  01/11  at  04:29 PM

Not to derail the discussion, but the backscatter X-Ray machines and millimeter wave scanners being bandied about in response to the undie fundie have a serious limitation:  They wouldn’t have detected the bomb, which was tucked behind his nutsack.  Look at the sample images shown by the manufacturers of these devices.  Can you see what’s behind the guys balls? 

These technologies are being pushed because they are physical devices, expensive to buy and maintain, which means that the manufacturer has money to spend on campaign donations, think tank funding, and post-retirement jobs for the civil servants who make the purchasing decisions.

Comment #43: togolosh  on  01/11  at  04:30 PM

... and while I was retrieving my password so I could post, the discussion has moved on without me. Of course.

Comment #44: kristin  on  01/11  at  04:30 PM

And when it happens to someone else, it’s a few column inches or a 15-second sound bite on the 11 p.m. news.  Our tendency to assume it won’t happen to us is based on this.  Our tendency to worry about terrorism and the like is based on the fact that every time an incident (even a non-fatal one) happens, TV, radio, and print are filled with stories about it.

Yup.

I think one of the most annoying aspects of the coverage on the would-be underwear bomber is the number of times I’ve heard some talking head on TV refer to the incident as a “terrorist attack”.  And unfortunately, that verbiage to describe the incident has been used by more than just conservatives.

Everytime I hear the incident referred to as a “terrorist attack”, I want to scream at the television.  And particularly when the TV moderator allows that characterization to go unchallenged.

It wasn’t a terrorist attack.  Nobody was attacked.  One could reasonably argue that it was an “attempted terrorist attack”, but that dramatically changes the meaning of the incident, and paints it in a much more accurate light.

If someone walks into a home with the intention of murdering the homeowner, and they fire a gun at the homeowner but miss completely, we would not characterize the incident as a “murder”, we would call it an “attempted murder”.  The person would not be tried for first-degree murder, they would be tried for attempted murder.  And if the perpetrator failed to kill the target and had never killed another human being before, we would not refer to them as a “murderer”, because they didn’t succeed in murdering anyone.  No dead bodies, no murder.

And just the same, nobody was attacked on Christmas by the underwear whacko.  Aside from the damage done to his own genitals, nobody was killed, nobody was physically harmed, and no property was substantially damaged that day.  Nothing was “attacked”.  The dude tried, and failed, to do something really bad.  But we seem to ignore the fact that he failed in his primary intended mission.  The only degree to which he actually succeeded is to the extent that we’ve allowed the incident to cause us to collectively shit our pants again about the ominous threat of “terrah”.  The only thing he succeeded in “attacking” is our collective sense of sanity and calm about how we should react to these things.

Comment #45: DTG in STL  on  01/11  at  04:42 PM

Ok, this has absolutely nothing to do with this topic whatsoever, but this is just breaking…

Sarah Palin has just signed a multi-year contract to work as a contributor to, you guessed it, Fox News Channel.

Who didn’t see that move from Bible Spice coming from a mile away?

Comment #46: DTG in STL  on  01/11  at  04:51 PM

The discussion about technology is a distraction from the deep systemic problems in the TSA (and its follower agencies abroad). In turn, the existence of TSA is a distraction from the deep systemic problems in serious counter-terrorism efforts.

That said, since no-one in government is really willing to address issues like inter-agency pissing matches or coddling of terrorist-enabling “friendly” states like KSA and Pakistan, let alone the astoundingly low hiring and training standards for domestic TSA agents and its incompetent managers, I suppose we might as well start by cutting through the massive amounts of bed-wetting BS associated with the “necessity” of security theatre and its shiny toys.

Ok, this has absolutely nothing to do with this topic whatsoever, but this is just breaking…

Don’t be hard on yourself. We are talking about logic-challenged ignorami fomenting unnecessary panic and drama—if Palin and Faux News don’t fit the bill, I don’t know who does.

Comment #47: Gracchus.  on  01/11  at  05:04 PM

I mean, if I had a relative or close friend who had actually lost someone that day, I would have been pretty hesitant to call them a “bedwetter” the first time they ever rode a plane after 9/11 if they expressed nervousness about it.

As someone who was actually at the WTC on 9/11, I will explain something that kept me sane throughout the months following that day. 

Random bad shit can happen to anyone, anywhere.  Sure, I might be involved in another terrorist attack.  Or I could get hit by a bus.  Or be diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor.  Or get mugged.  Or have my house knocked over by a tornado or hurricane.  All sorts of bad shit can happen to me, which I would have no control over whatsoever.  Terrorism is really not special in that regard.  So the best thing to do is ‘keep calm and carry on’, living my life as I want to live it, rather than being afraid of everything all the time.

And then I lived happily ever after and never had another panic attack in a stalled subway car*.  The end.

*total lie, btw.

Comment #48: The Opoponax  on  01/11  at  05:08 PM

I want the authorities to prove that the back-scatter x-ray system won’t damage my chakras.

Comment #49: ayutokamina  on  01/11  at  05:19 PM

Chet never has to worry about trying to pass through security (and a backscatter scan) wearing a tampon or pad.

Kind of OT, but if you’re wearing a tampon or pad through security, chances are you’re also carrying some in the luggage that’s going through the x-ray machine.  Which means that somebody at airport security probably already knows you have your period.

I have wondered, though, about how transgendered people feel about these machines.

Comment #50: The Opoponax  on  01/11  at  05:25 PM

If someone walks into a home with the intention of murdering the homeowner, and they fire a gun at the homeowner but miss completely, we would not characterize the incident as a “murder”, we would call it an “attempted murder”.

And if the homeowner sees a bulge in their pocket and grabs their hand before they can finish pulling it out, thus foiling any shot being fired at all, I’m not even sure that would actually be a crime.  It certainly wouldn’t be a crime on the level of “murder”, more like assault or maybe possession of an illegal firearm.  Going into somebody’s house and thinking, “I want to kill you, and I have the means to do it, too!” isn’t actually murder.

Comment #51: The Opoponax  on  01/11  at  05:30 PM

I mean, if I had a relative or close friend who had actually lost someone that day, I would have been pretty hesitant to call them a “bedwetter” the first time they ever rode a plane after 9/11 if they expressed nervousness about it.

Personally I save “bed-wetter” for the pundits and politicians and blowhards (of which there are plenty), but when it came to nervous flyers who lost someone in the towers (I can think of only two, and honestly it was lukewarm nervousness) I felt it better to comfort them with the miniscule chances of any sort of repeat, based on facts and logic.

In other words, “cold” facts can be used to comfort and (per Mary Wollstonecraft via Sam Holloway at #23) positive emotion can flow from reason. The only people in whose interest it is to claim otherwise are authoritarians and fantasists.

Comment #52: Gracchus.  on  01/11  at  05:30 PM

Also, in general re “bed-wetters” and people who lost someone in the 9/11 attacks—the vast majority of people who still have their panties in a twist over “Terrah” did not lose anyone in a terrorist attack. That’s not why they’re worked up about terrorism.  They’re worked up because they’re buying the hysteria being peddled by the Right.  Or are doing the peddling themselves.

Comment #53: The Opoponax  on  01/11  at  06:02 PM

Also, in general re “bed-wetters” and people who lost someone in the 9/11 attacks—the vast majority of people who still have their panties in a twist over “Terrah” did not lose anyone in a terrorist attack

As a rule of thumb (and with the exception of the territory inside the Beltway), the further away from the WTC a person was on 9/11, the more likely it is that he’ll be squawking over the dire personal threat to all Americans from terrorists, and the more readily he’ll give in to subtractions from his liberties (once you move west of Salt Lake City the trend abates somewhat).

New Yorkers were royally pissed off by the attacks, no doubt, but the general response in the city was to handle the emergency and get back to life as normal ASAP to show these religious arseholes that even this heinous crime wasn’t going to slow our city down.

Comment #54: Gracchus.  on  01/11  at  06:23 PM

I’d also add that security theater makes people feel helpless and frustrated, too—-in fact, that’s the point.  But it also means it heightens the sense of risk (OMG WHAT IF I MISS MY FLIGHT?), and that’s not nothing.  It’s easy to piss on that, but as the holiday season demonstrates, people can, and I think for good reason, get really bent out of shape if their holiday is ruined.  That’s a cost, and it needs to be well considered.

ITA, and I think it’s a reason that a lot of the theatrical parts of the screening is haphazardly applied. Business travelers really will not stand for this kind of inconvenience, and without biz travelers, the airlines can’t succeed. The liquid ban, the one that forbade any beverages past security, lasted what, a week? Not that it’s not still irritating to dump your coffee at the checkpoint only to buy another on the other side, but it’s a significant acknowledgement of the nonsense of the rule on the part of TSA.
They will yield if a big enough stink is made.

Comment #55: benvolio  on  01/11  at  06:34 PM

The liquid ban, the one that forbade any beverages past security, lasted what, a week?

Maybe I’m confused, but I’m pretty sure that you still can’t take a beverage past the security checkpoint.  This has been in place for the past 8+ years, all the way back to the first new restrictions that were added after 9/11…

I mean, you can get a new beverage on the other side of the checkpoint, but you can’t actually carry a beverage with you into the secured terminal area.  I don’t think this has changed, or will ever change anytime soon.

Comment #56: DTG in STL  on  01/11  at  06:40 PM

“The person viewing the scan can’t see you with your clothes on. They’d see whatever compliment of genitals you did have, but how would they know what you were trying to pass as? A trans woman with male genitals would simply appear as just another man to the people viewing the scans.”

Sounds like: 
“Well, they’d never lie to us about something important like WMD in Iraq.  Come on, are you some kind of conspiracy nut?”

“We’d never torture prisoners.  America always stands up for truth and justice!”

“They’re only tapping phones of terrorists.  Real Americans like you and me never have to worry about them listening in on us.”

“It was only a few bad apples who did it.  There’s no need to think it went any higher than that.”

“Cheney’s only the Vice President.  Bush is and always has been in charge.”

***

Chet, Ronald Reagan wants you to give me all of your worldly posessions.

I would never, ever, lie about something that important, so you can trust me.  I’ll tell you where to send the stuff…

Comment #57: MikeEss  on  01/11  at  07:11 PM

Maybe I’m confused, but I’m pretty sure that you still can’t take a beverage past the security checkpoint.

The first iteration of the beverage ban demanded that once past security, no bevvie, no how. No taking any bottle on board, no drinking anything while you waited. The airport vendors (as well as thirsty travelers) had a cow; that part of the ban was rescinded to its current outside-bevs-no-good/inside-bevs-ok iteration.

Comment #58: benvolio  on  01/11  at  07:14 PM

Well, we have a TSA. The TSA taking no steps whatsoever for security, or even apparent security, is untenable. Getting rid of the TSA is untenable. For better or for worse security theatre is here to stay.

Again: why? Government agencies come and go, and on (admittedly rare) occasion it’s due to direct or indirect pressure from a relatively small but highly interested and informed group of citizens. More frequently, government agencies change their policies due to pressure from citizens.

You may be apathetic, but don’t assume everyone else is. There are organisations like the ACLU and serious security experts like Bruce Schneier who are constantly challenging the TSA’s policies and structure, and there are many ordinary citizens who back their efforts. Some people just prefer to do more than shrug and say “that’s what most people want, so that’s the way it will always be.”

I happen to prefer the idea of government-regulated airport security to the willy-nilly alternative of a bunch of private outfits running the show at different airports. The problem here is that the TSA is a joke to anyone who understands security (including people in other government agencies). All the back-scatter scanners in the world won’t change that.

Maybe I’m confused, but I’m pretty sure that you still can’t take a beverage past the security checkpoint.  This has been in place for the past 8+ years, all the way back to the first new restrictions that were added after 9/11…

It’s still in effect as far as I know, although they only started with this particular idiocy after the so-called “liquid bombers” planned (and failed) to mix an explosive in the airplane lavatory. It came into effect around 2005, when they also limited carry-on liquids and gels to small containers.

Comment #59: Gracchus.  on  01/11  at  07:19 PM

You’re right Chet.  It’s just crazy to think that some new piece of invasive technology will end up getting used far more often, and in unanticipated ways, than we expect.  And it would be crazy to think that once the camel’s nose is under the tent it’ll just keep coming right on in.

History shows we should always trust those in authority.

I love Big Brother!  2+2=5!  War is Peace!  Freedom is Slavery!  Ignorance is Strength!...

Comment #60: MikeEss  on  01/11  at  07:27 PM

The liquid ban, the one that forbade any beverages past security, lasted what, a week? Not that it’s not still irritating to dump your coffee at the checkpoint only to buy another on the other side, but it’s a significant acknowledgement of the nonsense of the rule on the part of TSA.

Uhhh, no.  Said ban is still in existence, at least on every flight I’ve been on in the last few years (I fly at least 2-3 times a year, more often in the last year or so).  And it’s much more of an inconvenience than having to ditch your coffee, because it requires many people to check a bag*.  Most airlines now charge around $20 per flight for that privilege. 

*well that or not bathe, I suppose.

Comment #61: The Opoponax  on  01/11  at  08:34 PM

Are they cool with getting a body cavity search before getting on a bus?  Before entering a mall, a sports stadium, or a theater?  How about a body cavity search before entering that large (how large?) office building?  Since cars and trucks are large and dangerous, how about checkpoints around town and on freeways where body cavity searchs are performed on drivers?

1) They’re white and middle class, so if only we implement prof—er, risk assessment properly, they and theirs will never be subject to such measures.
2) They know that the ACLU and other liberals will scream in outrage and prevent this kind of stuff from actually happening, so they can be OK with it secure in the belief that it won’t happen. (And if it doesn’t happen and there’s another attack they can blame liberals for opposing it, and if it does happen they can blame liberals for not having opposed it enough.)

Comment #62: paul  on  01/11  at  09:39 PM

Also, in general re “bed-wetters” and people who lost someone in the 9/11 attacks—the vast majority of people who still have their panties in a twist over “Terrah” did not lose anyone in a terrorist attack.

Those people really bother me. I was in Seattle and I didn’t have any friends or family on the East Coast, so I didn’t even know anyone within 100 miles of the 9/11 stuff. That made it pretty easy to not react emotionally to any extent, and I didn’t take it personally. I felt awful for the people whose lives *were* affected, but I wasn’t one of those people.

But then you have people just like me who, instead of saying “wow, some people got really hurt” and focusing on the actual victims, said “OMFGBBQ this is an excellent opportunity for me to go BUGFUCK NUTS and get lots of attention!” and then proceeded to do so. It pisses me off. It’s like crashing a funeral; I don’t throw myself sobbing over the casket of someone else’s grandpa! And I don’t try to pretend that an event that took place 3000 miles away to people I didn’t (at the time) know was some soul-crushing event for me.

And getting your tighty-whiteys in a bunch over that dumbfuck on a plane with the light-up underwear is giving him waaay too much credit. He accomplished about as much as your average 14-year-old with a deathwish trying to light a fart. Let’s not blow up it out of proportion, America.

Comment #63: Bagelsan  on  01/11  at  11:02 PM

And getting your tighty-whiteys in a bunch over that dumbfuck on a plane with the light-up underwear is giving him waaay too much credit.

You know what the saddest thing is?

That pair of underwear (why do we call underwear “pairs”, BTW?) probably belongs in the Guiness World Records as being the most economically consequential pair of underwear ever made.  Think about all the delayed flights, new high-tech full body scanners, and all the other extra security costs that pair of underwear will likely lead to.  We’re talking millions, perhaps even billions of dollars.  All caused by a simple piece of clothing which may have only cost pennies to manufacture.

We are silly monkeys, us humans.

Comment #64: DTG in STL  on  01/11  at  11:27 PM

I actually think that what has helped diminish the fear of terrorism is the constant political exploitation of terrorism by the GOP.  They have overplayed their hand.  We owe a huge debt of gratitude to Rudy Giuliani for making it clear to anybody who wasn’t a total wingnut that the fear of terrorism is something that the politicians view as only something to politically exploit. 

We should actually encourage more right wing hysteria.  The public is tuning out more and more and may eventually tune out completely. 

The other thing is, the more they can continue to act like out of control maniacs in response to every foiled terrorist plot, the more they undercut their image as tough, serious leaders who know how to deal with bad guys.  In the long run, this routine will make Rudy and company seem like somebody with an anxiety disorder, not tough leaders.

Comment #65: triviadude  on  01/12  at  01:39 AM

Let me prefix this by saying that I don’t really think terrorism is a problem that occurs with sufficient frequency that it makes sense to invest many resources in.

That said, IMO, the only utility of airport security is to scare terrorists into being less likely to attack.  We’re not going to catch terrorists:  the prior(the statistical incidence) is too small, and the conditional is too small(the probability of catching a terrorist if a terrorist is walking through security); leading to a posterior that is minute(the probability of catching a terrorist).  Virtually everyone we catch will not be a terrorist and instead be an innocent person we’re annoying.  There isn’t a lot we can do to get better at catching them.  But if the security intimidates terrorists into not trying, that could have a statistically significant result. 

If we want to implement more effective terrorism policies, maybe we should engage in *more* theatrical airport security, but actually detain/harass people less?  That way we decrease terrorism by deterrence but get fewer false positives.

Comment #66: Zosima  on  01/12  at  02:21 AM

Look at the sample images shown by the manufacturers of these devices.  Can you see what’s behind the guys balls?

Here’s the reality about this tech: it will only be useful for detecting things that can be detected by other methods already.  The only advantage it has is that it’s a bit faster and more efficient at handling large groups.

Getting back to the quoted point: there’s a reason that prison guards, when doing a complete strip search, wear gloves and tell the prisoner to bed over and spread ‘em.  Using a standard smuggling technique that’s been around since people started smuggling things on their person renders the scanners completely useless.  They’d be further ahead with standard metal detectors and explosive sniffers.

Comment #67: KeithM  on  01/12  at  06:31 AM

What government agency has ever gone?

Here are 85. Wikipedia is your friend

Now many of them were folded into other agencies or re-named, but many of them were also created for specific economic or military emergencies, or to regulate what are now obsolete situations.

In any case, as noted above, an agency going entirely is rare, but policies are changed very frequently.

Glad to see that, as usual, you’re avoiding the other facts and questions I brought up. Here’s another for you, Captain Apathy: at what point do you think all this useless security theatre will go too far? Cavity searches? Disposable paper flying suits? In-flight straitjackets?

If we want to implement more effective terrorism policies, maybe we should engage in *more* theatrical airport security, but actually detain/harass people less?  That way we decrease terrorism by deterrence but get fewer false positives.

Here’s an interesting article on the Israeli approach to security (via Metafilter). Their goal is to get the passenger from check-in to gate in 25 minutes or less, and somehow they do it despite the fact that they have more serious terrorism problems than we do.

Basically, they’ve replaced security theatre run by people who barely graduated high school with behavioural observation run by trained professionals. The checks begin before the traveller arrives at the terminal. And they take the time to consider what to do if a scanner (high-tech or not) actually turns up a positive. Even the profiling is based on more than “this person has dark skin and is wearing a turban”—they’re more interested in singling out the kind of loser who becomes a hijacker: single male, age 16-40, travelling alone, passport issued by a “gap” country.

This is what serious security people do—if it’s theatre then it’s theatre with a purpose, theatre that gets results. As the article notes, a major reason why it’s done that way is because the Israelis are nowhere near as fatalistic as Chet is about how our clown-show TSA operates.

Comment #68: Gracchus.  on  01/12  at  01:58 PM

Uhhh, no.  Said ban is still in existence  Uhhh, no. There is a beverage ban in existence now, but it is NOT THE SAME ONE. The first ban, which was so short-lived, mandated no liquid before OR AFTER the security check. It also prohibited carry on of laptops, ipods and other small electronics. Travelers and airport vendors went apeshit, and the ban was quickly modified to its present incarnation.  I traveled under the first ban; I remember the fuming about not having decent music to listen to for an 8-hour overseas flight and seeing all the shop-shelves empty of the blessed nectar of diet coke. By the time I came back, I was diet-coked and ipoded happily.

Comment #69: benvolio  on  01/12  at  02:15 PM

The first ban, which was so short-lived, mandated no liquid before OR AFTER the security check.

Are you sure about that?

Maybe I’m misreading, but you seem to be suggesting that there was at some point a ban in which all liquid was prohibited from ALL areas of the airport, even common areas where non-passengers are allowed… “Before the checkpoint” to me means all of the areas in the airport that non-ticketed people are allowed to be, like the main terminals, as opposed to the concourses with the gates on the other side of the magnetometers.  Maybe I’m confused.

What area of the airport are you referring to when you say “before the checkpoint”?  The common areas before ticketed passengers go through magnetometers, where you can say goodbye to loved ones dropping you off or meet with people picking you up, or the area immediately outside the individual gate entrances to the planes?

I don’t recall there ever being a total ban against all liquids anywhere physically inside the airport at all, just a brief ban where no liquids were allowed beyond the checkpoints, and no new liquids could be bought beyond those checkpoints.

Comment #70: DTG in STL  on  01/12  at  04:30 PM

OK, nevermind.  I think I know what you are saying.

There was a brief time in which no liquids could be taken beyond the checkpoints, and once you were beyond the checkpoints, you couldn’t buy any new liquids, either.  This effectively prevented vendors like Starbucks from being able to operate at all if they were located beyond any security checkpoint in the airport.  But a Starbucks located outside the checkpoint - in the common areas of the airport where non-ticketed guests were allowed to be -wouldn’t have been prohibited from selling beverages.

The current rule prohibits passing through the checkpoint with beverages, but it doesn’t prohibit having beverages on either side, you just have to buy a new beverage after you pass through the checkpoint.

Comment #71: DTG in STL  on  01/12  at  04:39 PM

Americans should conclude they deserve retributive retaliation for their military oppression.

Comment #72: mnsr  on  01/13  at  02:49 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.