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Street harassment ruins everything

Feminism

It’s summer, which means that people are out and about, which means more street harassment.  And women are more likely to be wearing clothes where entire inches of skin are visible, so you’re getting a lot more victim-blaming.  So you’re seeing the issue crop up more on blogs.  The latest installment is Shani-O, blogging over at Ta-Nehisi’s place, about Holla Back DC.  In her posts, she focuses on how sadly effective street harassment is when it comes to the goal of making sure that a woman feels like public property.

One thing that nearly all of the posts have in common is an acknowledgement of the effects that street harassment have on women. Most write that they felt shaken, angry, helpless, or tearful after an incident. They write that it took time for them to pull themselves together. That’s the thing I think many men don’t understand about the harassment: it completely strips a woman of autonomy and it forces a reaction that lasts long after the incident is over. Many times, harassers are seeking a positive reaction, and when they don’t get that, they turn to calling the woman they complimented moments earlier a “bitch.” And either way, the woman has been forcibly dragged out of her own thoughts. That’s why so many women studiously ignore all strangers on the street, I think. It’s a form of insulation from getting shook.

Often, when this subject comes up, there’s discussion of men who actually think they’re giving “compliments” or who think this’ll “work”, as in get a woman to go out with you or otherwise give you positive attention.  I do think that some men think of it this way, but that doesn’t make them less misogynist.  If anything, it makes them more misogynist, because the distinction between winning a woman over and getting her yield against her will to you has completely collapsed for them.  That women have minds of their own matters not one bit to those guys—-just getting a reaction of any sort is good, because it verifies that women are simply things to be acted upon.  With the guys who unambiguously yell mean-spirited shit at them, at least you get the sense that they’re just trying on their male privilege for size, but they do know the difference between hitting on someone and threatening them with rape.  The ones who can’t tell the difference scare me.

What I really liked about Shani’s post was that she dispensed with the irritating myth that there’s a reaction that works to somehow “win” the interaction with a harasser, or somehow discourage the behavior.  The myth that women are able to control male behavior through manipulation is a long-standing patriarchal myth used to spring men of all responsibility for oppressing women directly, and it’s particularly hard to eradicate because, on its surface, it feels like it should be empowering to learn ways to get around a man’s obstinate willingness to take full advantage of his dominant position by doing everything from emotionally abusing you to refusing to do the housework.  But especially with street harassment, there’s nothing you can do to win.  He was born in the winning position.  It’s a structural issue.  Harassment is set up to make you helpless—-everything you can do in response is going to make things worse for you.  In this way, it’s really no different than a regime where men randomly trip women in the street, and it’s perfectly legal to do so while women have no legal recourse.  How you fall—-if you aim for flat on your face or try to land on your shoulder—-you’re still bruised and helpless.  The only real solution is for men to stop tripping women.

Really, the more I think about it, the more I think that choosing a reaction to harassment should be less on trying to show the harasser up, and more on finding a way to minimize the damage to yourself.  This isn’t always possible, of course—-some men really work hard on finding ways to freak women out—-but in some cases, you can work on not letting it get to you.  Laughing at the assholes after the fact and talking about it is my preferred strategy.  When something isn’t talked about, it creates a shield of privacy around the harasser and gives him more power over you.  Which is why I think the Holla Back sites are so great, since they basically dispense with the illusion that victims owe harassers a bubble of privacy to harass—-that we have to be complicit in the abuse of ourselves.  But I think what most women settle on is doing our best to just tune the bullshit out. 

Ignoring someone doesn’t make them go away.  In some cases, harassers double down because getting a reaction is so precious to them.  But it can, in many cases, minimize the damage they do to you.  But what’s sad is that even the strategy of ignoring comes at a price for victims.  Since the vast majority of men yelling at women on the sidewalk are harassing them, many women simply learn to tune out male voices when they’re outside.  That’s certainly my main save-my-sanity strategy, helped by the fact that I’m kind of deaf.  But the result is that I tune out all men on the street.  I usually can recover well when it’s a male friend who spots me and yells at me—-they usually don’t pick up on the fact that “didn’t hear them” was somewhat willful, because as soon as I realize the hollering isn’t of the insidious rape threat sort, I’m happy to see them. 

But there’s also the occasional stranger that you ignore who needs your help.  It’s not usually a big deal, but still it bothers.  I realized how accustomed I had become to ignoring men yelling at me on the sidewalk that when a guy pulled over his van and was yelling at me the other day, it didn’t even occur to me to look up.  You know, even though it was almost impossible that this man was harassing me, because I was with my boyfriend.  Harassers think of women as property, so if you have a visible claimant to your body around, they don’t treat you like public property.  No, this man was just asking directions.  And I was embarrassed that I didn’t even look.  I don’t want to be a bad neighbor.

What choice do I have, though?  If I give every man who yells at me the benefit of the doubt and I look, 90% of the time, I have a mild trauma when he takes advantage of piercing through my armor to say something nasty to me, or at least just make me feel bad by gloating about how he showed me who gets to control my mental space.  Men’s needs for directions will just have to suffer a little; it’s a smaller price to pay to street harassers than what women pay on a regular basis.  I don’t like being a bad neighbor, but I’m not going to blame myself for taking care of myself first. But it worries me.  What if one day a man is yelling at me because he sees a threat to my safety that I don’t see?  What if I don’t hear him yelling because I have to tune all men out? 

When people talk about the way that small acts of bullying make life less pleasant overall, this is the sort of thing we’re talking about.  Street harassment reduces trust, reduces friendliness, reduces even safety—-often in ways that don’t seem immediately apparent.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 05:06 PM • (141) Comments

<NiceGuy®>

But ... but how’s a good natured special guy like me—a guy who’d never hurt a fly—how’s a guy like me supposed to meet new women I find attractive if I can’t give a woman a compliment? Between all these alpha male thugs and the skittish feminist women, I’ll never find a GF! Woe is me!

</NiceGuy®>

(Just saving our usual clueless self-pitying mopes some keystrokes)

Comment #1: Gracchus.  on  06/18  at  06:06 PM

Wow. When you lay it all out like that, and describe all the damage (both overt and subtle) that everyday street harrassment does, its really pretty terrifying.

Comment #2: atheist  on  06/18  at  06:14 PM

Really, the more I think about it, the more I think that choosing a reaction to harassment should be less on trying to show the harasser up, and more on finding a way to minimize the damage to yourself.

Amanda, I’ve been meaning to ask you something about your writing. To preface, I consider you an amazingly lucid and compelling writer. I have noticed that you sometimes use prepositions in ways that seem idiosyncratic to me.

Like in this quoted sentence, where you use “on” in “choosing…should be less on trying…, and more on finding…”, I would always use “about”. Is this a regional thing, you being from Texas, and me being from the northeast? I’m not criticizing; I find language fascinating and am genuinely curious.

Comment #3: PhysioProf  on  06/18  at  06:16 PM

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! WTF is a “STATUE FIRE”?

Comment #4: PhysioProf  on  06/18  at  06:24 PM

But there’s also the occasional stranger that you ignore who needs your help.

Or who wants to help you. From the earlier thread on the topic:

The other day I told a pair of young women I was passing in the other direction that there was a lot of broken glass on the sidewalk in front of them. It wasn’t a pickup, and I would have said something to anyone headed in that direction. None-the-less, they flinched a little when I addressed them out of the blue, and I completely understand why. Show me a guy who’d be bitter about that reaction, and I’ll show you a NiceGuy®.

I’d add that while I’m not bitter about the reaction, it sucks that street harrassment (including the non-yelling “you look nice, miss” variety) has, as you say, made it that much more difficult for human beings to look out for each-other.

Comment #5: Gracchus.  on  06/18  at  06:30 PM

To be completely fair to him though, I actually did kill Mickey Mouse.  So he’s not wrong there.

Comment #6: Gavel Down  on  06/18  at  06:30 PM

Very well-written post, Amanda

Comment #7: atheist  on  06/18  at  06:32 PM

@ #4

Markuze, if you want our attention I’d suggest:

1. Going back to the asterisks. It was your trademark.

2. More about Nostradamus and Depeche Mode. Don’t hide your crazy under a bushel.

Comment #8: Gracchus.  on  06/18  at  06:33 PM

Good question, PhysioProf.

Another that always puzzles me with these rabid, foaming God-Botherer types is the quote above “Repent and turn to God or be destroyed.  You have no choice.”

Well yes, actually, that sentence includes a choice.

We can either:  “Repent and turn to God”

or

“be destroyed.”

Someone hasn’t the first clue what his Bible says about free will if he honestly believes that anybody has “no choice.”

In fact, in certain denominations of Christianity, conversion and salvation at the point of a weapon don’t count at all, because it was under duress, a form of both extortion and coercion.  Certain Christians realize that salvation has to be undergone willingly, not under any sort of threat.  Inclusion of the threat renders all subsequent spiritual outcome (whether salvation, damnation, or anything in between) logistically null and void.

That’s my main problem with religious fanatics:  they’re too easy to defeat in a logical debate.  Therefore, we don’t have to pay an iota of attention to any of their positions.  Not a one.

Comment #9: Mezosub  on  06/18  at  06:39 PM

I agree with you on most points, Amanda, but I beg to differ that there’s nothing you can do about street harassment.

I’ve written about this before on Pandagon, and HollaBack has published it today as one of their first guest posts: a system that I evolved through trial and error that has kept me safe for 40 years as a woman who in several large cities, and is a response to (most) street harassers that gives them no satisfaction.

http://hollabacknyc.blogspot.com/2010/06/guest-post-judy-browns-take-on-what.html

Comment #10: judybrowni  on  06/18  at  06:40 PM

I had a 20 page argument with one dude (I am also a dude, just feminist minded) after I posted the Holla Back DC link on my facebook wall (he’s some guy I met once in college 20 years ago.  he really shouldn’t be on my friends list).  He couldn’t resist openly mocking the complaints of the women on the site and insisted that it is in fact intolerance not to be tough enough to accept compliments from random men.  He lives in Seattle and claims that men are despised as second class citizens there and that true tolerance would be “letting men enjoy express how they enjoy the bodies of the women around them.”  He then went on to insult another of my male friends as a “vagina american” for agreeing with me, and refused to acknowledge that a guy should ever have to regulate his behavior because it makes a woman uncomfortable.  In his world men are naturally aggressive, it’s a good thing, and the only acceptable reaction to being complimented in public, no matter what you are doing, is to enjoy it and anyone who feels uncomfortable is weak and/or unreasonably anxious about the possibility of groping, harassment or rape.  I tried 15 different ways to get him to empathize with a woman’s point of view, but the couldn’t get past the male privilege. 

It was a completely stunning conversation to me.  And this was him talking to another guy.  I could easily see him trying to completely dismiss the conversation from a woman as soon as she brought it up.  I have new respect for the types of nice guy bullshit women have to put up with.  Thanks for articles like these, I like to post them on my wall and give these guys something to think about.  It doesn’t get better if you let dudes like “my friend” think it’s acceptable to harass women and that’s it’s on the woman to just “learn how to deal with it.”  God forbid a man should ever have to control himself in public.

Comment #11: SoylentH  on  06/18  at  06:47 PM

Eh, to me it’s like the asshole God-botherer who shows up on posts to yell at atheists.

I look/listen for a moment, then if I determine, “Huh, an asshole,” they become unimportant. It does get a bit alarming if they insist on following, but I’ve never been in a situation where I couldn’t join up with another person, reach my destination, or go into a place that discouraged them from following me. Except when I was 14 and a creep tried to follow me home from the store, at which point I turned and yelled at him. “What’s the matter with you, I’m 14!” turned out to be all I needed, because he was a normal creepy clueless guy, not a genuine predator. He couldn’t apologize fast enough. Maybe having a sort of victory at such a young age made me feel more confident in dealing with it, I dunno.

Comment #12: Samantha Vimes  on  06/18  at  06:50 PM

Great timing with this post Amanda.

He lives in Seattle and claims that men are despised as second class citizens there

Ummm so do I and yeah… whut?

I was harassed on the Seattle streets (downtown and Fremont) several times on my days off this week (Tue and Wed) now what in the hell are these a-holes doing ruining the middle of a nice afternoon - I’m trying to show my friend (also female) from NZ around town and it just happened. TWICE. Shouts from a car and a douche on the bus who won’t leave us the hell alone and then gets upset when we don’t take “the bait” and starts calling us every name under the sun until we move by the driver and ask him to call the cops.

I got so angry about it - I mulled it over - what I could have should have said in my mind for a few hours. I didn’t want to be upset around my friend but I can’t let it go. Even two days later.
There IS indeed a “wall” that I put up around myself most days when I’m walking to and from the bus from work and home. I just got reminded of why it was there this week.
Grrrr….

Comment #13: Danica Lefse Queen  on  06/18  at  07:00 PM

WTF is a “STATUE FIRE”

Perhaps a reference to the fact that the Touchdown Jesus got struck by lightning and burned down? Breaks my heart to see Ohio become just a little less tacky.

Oh yeah, didn’t know if you saw this bit yet: Hey Baby? You’re Not a Victim. All those times I’ve had people throw beer bottles at me or scream “fat ass c*nt”, I should have been more appreciative because I’m fat and ugly and it was a compliment.

I miss all kinds of crap because I’ve been trained to tune men out, from people asking me for directions or change to kind men who tried to help when I left my purse somewhere.  Seriously, why do some d-bags have to ruin polite society for the rest of us?

Comment #14: Godless Heathen  on  06/18  at  07:05 PM

judybrowni @11, I don’t think the point is “there’s nothing you can do, ever, that ever works”, but that there is no one, right, magical key to dealing with harassers that will make them turn tail and run, such that women who don’t find the key probably should blame themselves for handing it “wrong”.

Hothead Paisan has a pretty foolproof method, actually, although in the real world it has some consequences most of us would rather avoid.

Comment #15: mythago  on  06/18  at  07:08 PM

Good post. Similarly, I can’t count the number of times a friend has said “I saw you out cycling the other day! I called out and beeped my horn but you didn’t hear me!”

I’ve always just apologised for “not hearing”. Maybe I should explain instead that many, many gits yell or honk their horns at women, cyclists and especially women cyclists, either out of some overentitled attention seeking, or because they think it’s hilarious to scare you out of your skin. These gits are in half ton metal boxes and I’m not; any escalation would be life threatening so I never, EVER respond to shouts or beeps from cars.

Comment #16: MissPrism  on  06/18  at  07:09 PM

More about Nostradamus and Depeche Mode.

I wondered about the “Princess Di is Wearing a New Dress” ref.  Especially since “New Dress” is about tabloid journalism distracting from what’s really important; kind of like numb-nuts there trying to distract from the topic here.  WTF does atheism have to do with street harassment?

Comment #17: liberalrob  on  06/18  at  07:11 PM

ok, i think i’ve just discovered a positive use for tasers.

Comment #18: cpinva  on  06/18  at  07:14 PM

When you lay it all out like that, and describe all the damage (both overt and subtle) that everyday street harrassment does, its really pretty terrifying.


Being female is scary.  We create walls and deny the reality, but the fact is we live in a world where half the people are larger, have more muscles due to testosterone, and grow up knowing that they are better than we are.

Sure, most of the time they don’t intend (much) harm, but you can’t know when that time is.  You can’t know what the “right” response will be.  And any man, even a homeless guy begging you for change, will tell you to “smile” for him.

All I know to do is teach my son to respect women, to stand up to other boys who don’t , and to protect his sisters as best he can.

Comment #19: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/18  at  07:19 PM

If you read my post you’ll see that I don’t ascribe to “one magical thing” in dealing with street harassers, but a system of efforts depending on the situation and the harassment that helped to keep me safe, and provided little satisfaction to the harassers.

And never do I once aver that women are “wrong” in these situations, or should blame themselves for the harassment.

(And I doubt that HollaBack would have printed my post—at their request—if I had suggested either.)

That’s quite a mythos you’ve dreamed up, which has nothing to do with my post, or the reality of street harrassment I’ve dealt with in New York, Los Angeles or any other major city I’ve passed through.

I went to the trouble of writing and posting my experiences in handling street harassment to help other women—I suggest you read the post before criticizing (and maybe, because it might help you in a similar situation.)

http://hollabacknyc.blogspot.com/2010/06/guest-post-judy-browns-take-on-what.html

Comment #20: judybrowni  on  06/18  at  07:20 PM

Great post Amanda.

I agree that there’s no right/good/effective way to deal with harrassers.  People saying that there’s a magic comeback, or a magic way of acting, that will defuse the situation, or rob the harrassers of their satisfaction…  well, sorry, I just think you’re wrong.

It reminds me of being bullied in elementary and high school - everyone and their dog had advice about “Oh, if you just say X, or do X, or act like X”, they will stop.  It doesn’t work.

You see line of thinking with rape too - people want to believe that there are things you can do/measures you can take to ensure that it’ll never happen to you, but it’s not true.  Yeah, yeah, you can “minimize the risk”...except not really.

I think you’re completely right that women had to think about minimizing the damage to themselves first and foremost.  You can’t “win” this confrontation.  Maybe one time out of a hundred you’ll have that perfect comeback and feel like you came out on top, but usually even a great comeback will just get laughed at and they’ll be thrilled they got your attention and upset you.

whew… ending this rant now.  Sorry, it’s a really sensitive subject for me.  I feel like street harrassment has had a huge inmpact on my emotional well-being over the course of my life, and it makes me so angry.

Comment #21: nico  on  06/18  at  07:24 PM

Men do this to other men, too.  It makes me feel awful when it happens to me; when I was younger I would worry that I was walking in some way that made me “look gay” or something.  I guess that just goes to show that, like you all say, it’s about intimidation and control, not trying to pick people up.

Thanks for putting into words how I felt about this, Amanda, because I never quite understood why it felt so bad to be yelled at like this.  I know it’s different for women who experience it in terms of the overall oppressive culture, but what you wrote really helped me, too.

Comment #22: dopus dei  on  06/18  at  07:27 PM

Laughing at the assholes after the fact and talking about it is my preferred strategy.  When something isn’t talked about, it creates a shield of privacy around the harasser and gives him more power over you.  Which is why I think the Holla Back sites are so great, since they basically dispense with the illusion that victims owe harassers a bubble of privacy to harass—-that we have to be complicit in the abuse of ourselves.  But I think what most women settle on is doing our best to just tune the bullshit out.

I think you’re right on the money here.  The best medicine for this kind of behavior is a healthy dose of public shaming.  The harasser acts the way he does for an ego boost.  If you sap that ego boost, you reduce the appeal of the behavior.

That said, public shaming needs to be a collective thing.  If you’ve got the object of the harassment flipping the harasser the bird and everyone else ignoring the exchange, it’s weak.  If you’ve got half the street telling the harasser to STFU and go home, you get a more serious impact.  And even then, you’re only going to see that response when you have a genuine cultural shift.

But popularizing mockery of bad behavior is generally a good thing.  Holla Back DC is an excellent start.  I hope it builds up steam and goes far.

Comment #23: Zifnab25  on  06/18  at  07:30 PM

Reading comprehension, people.

http://hollabacknyc.blogspot.com/2010/06/guest-post-judy-browns-take-on-what.html

That’s the last I’ll say about that, since it’s useless to argue on the internet to those who haven’t read the post.

Comment #24: judybrowni  on  06/18  at  07:30 PM

This is pretty much why I’ve lost patience with panhandlers.  It is no longer enough just to quickly ask someone for money and move on if they say no, more aggressive panhandlers now insist on commanding your attention.  They need to tell you their life story, make up a reason why they need the money, pretend to strike up a conversation before finally just asking for a handout (This one pisses me off the most.  Thanks for pretending to be friendly just to get money out of me.).  One guy demanded that I take my earbuds out to talk to him and called me a bitch when I didn’t—so he clearly knew that I could hear him anyway, I guess it wouldn’t have been enough to just quickly ask for change.

It’s now at the point that my gut instinct is to ignore everyone on the street.  One day, I was walking for exercise (and so didn’t even have any cash on me), a guy tried to ask me something, I just shook my head because I assumed he wanted money.  I relented, turned back, and asked him what he wanted.  He just wanted directions.

I’ve been doing my best to ignore that gut reaction, but it’s really frustrating.  I’m thinking I should make it a policy to give to panhandlers who go non-intrusive, old school style, as a thank you for not being an asshole.

He lives in Seattle and claims that men are despised as second class citizens there

The first few years I lived in Seattle, I assumed most men here hated me.  Most of them act like they wouldn’t piss on me if I were on fire (although there’s very little street harassment compared to New York).  It took quite a while before I realized most Seattle guys (and girls) are extreme introverts and their at times hostile attitude is a result of shyness and fear.  I suspect that that guy is too afraid to be friendly and open, thus winning women over.  It’s too bad for him that he prefers to be resentful, but lucky for women if that keeps him off the dating scene.

Comment #25: keshmeshi  on  06/18  at  07:48 PM

GOD 1 - atheists 0

“The atheists pass!  The ball is going to Russell. He jinks past Jesus, passed to Dawkins!  Dawkins is going for it, going for it!  AND IT’S PAST MOSES!  G-O-O-O-A-L!!!!!!

“So that’s 1 all in this exciting game!  Eric, your thoughts?”

“Well, I have to say, Ken, it was probably a bad decison for God to put a 900 year old Jewish patriarch in as goal-keeper.  He really can’t jump well, and Dawkins certainly picked up on that.

Comment #26: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/18  at  07:57 PM

Hmm… somebody commented on the statue fire, “Thor 1, Jesus 0.”  I like that interpretation better.

Comment #27: libdevil  on  06/18  at  08:03 PM

Keshmeshi,
As a Seattlite, I’m not sure I would chalk up the introversion to fear or shyness. It is just a cultural thing. I can’t imagine an instance where I would talk to a stranger on the street unprovoked. Odds are I am in a hurry, and they are too. If anything, I consider this live and let live attitude polite.

Comment #28: John Joel Glanton  on  06/18  at  08:04 PM

“Odds are I am in a hurry, and he/she is too.” Had to correct, pet peeve.

Comment #29: John Joel Glanton  on  06/18  at  08:05 PM

It’s really strange but this shit happens to me more when I’m out bicycling than any other time in my life.  I don’t get it.  I’m completely flummoxed by it.  For years I ran up at a school track near my house.  This track is fairly isolated at the times I went.  People used to warn me not to go by myself, but I did all of the time.  I was rarely bothered.  Yet I will get in my bike, put on a helmet, a loose t shirt, and pants with padding, and men are always fucking with me.  Either they beep and scare the crap out of me, or the yell things out their window, or they stop at corners and make a big show of letting me go and then say hello and try to chat me up.  Far worse, I have had the only alarmingly scary experiences with men in my life, on my bike.  ONe of them was waiting at the top of a hill for me in his car at 5am.  At first, I didn’t believe it could be possible, but he was, waiting. 

Let me tell you, bicycling will really cure you of any ideas you have that men assault and harrass women because of how they are dressed or how they look. 

And I still don’t know what the big attraction about being on a bike on public, well-traveled streets, is.  There’s some thrill to that for them, but I don’t know what it is.  But you know, my bf has been harrassed on his bike.  Had things thrown at him and stuff.  By men.  It’s really messed up.

But I really love my time on my bike.  Ever since that guy at the top of the hill, I never forget to bring my cell phone with me, and I’ve really been thinking about ordering some mace or pepper spray online.

Comment #30: JennyLI  on  06/18  at  08:22 PM

The one redeeming feature of being harrassed from a car is that the fuckers have registration numbers on. My partner’s sister was slapped on the arse from a car while cycling, and I’m happy to report that the guy was convicted of assault.

Comment #31: MissPrism  on  06/18  at  08:29 PM

Where I live, there are more panhandlers than street harassers, and that’s saying something.

But my method of treating all requests from strangers on the street as a matter of “manners,” has also made it easier to deal with panhandlers.

If I want to turn them down, I say “I’m sorry, but I can’t,” or “I’m sorry, I don’t have any change,”—again, in a neutral tone, while moving on, and because I’ve done so in what appears to be a mannerly fashion, that usually defuses the situation, sometimes with a “That’s okay, honey.” from the panhandler.

If I feel like giving I do, and because my mother drummed basic manners into us kids, to a panhandlers “Thank you,” I automatically respond “You’re welcome,” which sometimes evokes such a look of gratitute and “God bless you.”

I’m not saying that panhandlers deserve a polite response—nor do any street harassers—only that my automatic “polite” seeming responses, defuse the situation for both sides, and make it easier getting through my day.

I’ve also befriended a disabled woman who panhandles in my neighborhood—not aggresively, so, she holds a sign. She worked her long life in service jobs—stores, as a waitress—and was injured so that one leg is shorter than the other.

She spent a year homeless, and finally on disability, it barely covered her rent, with nothing left over for food, clothing, no less the little niceities of life.

So she spends eight or more hours a day, 6 or 7 days a week, often in pain, sitting on her wheeled whatever-that-thing is called that someone who has difficulty walking pushes in front of ‘em, panhandling for a living, because she has no choice in the matter.

She’s finally in a low-cost government sponsored apartment, but Social Security disability payments were recently cut by the same California budget slashing enthusiasts who refused to empose a tax on yacht owners.

Panhandlers panhandle for a reason—they’re crazy, they need money for alcohol or drugs, or government assisstance isn’t enough to keep them alive.

The aggressive and abusive may not deserve a mannerly response from you, but it hold them off from further abuse of you, and the others experience a neutral polite manner as manna dropping from heaven compared to the abuse they receive on the street.

Comment #32: judybrowni  on  06/18  at  08:32 PM

Is that right MissPrism?  That is excellent, good.  See, the bike again.  WTF?  Leave the cyclists alone people!

Comment #33: JennyLI  on  06/18  at  08:33 PM

Have any of you all ever tried headphones? I do that to avoid panhandlers and Jesus nuts, it seems to work for the most part.

Comment #34: Ben D.  on  06/18  at  08:39 PM

And I agree about the aggressive panhandler vs. the quiet, old school type that just shakes change in a coffee cup. I’ll give to the later (or to street musicians) if I can, but fuck the aggressive ones. Aggressive panhandlers are a step away from being muggers IMHO.

Comment #35: Ben D.  on  06/18  at  08:45 PM

I also have to deal with the Jesus nut street harassers on nearly a monthly basis: I recommend “I’m sorry, but I never speak to strangers on the street,” a seemingly polite “No, thank you” to pamphlets, and as I’ve had to do once or twice, dialing for the cops, if they become crazy aggressive.

Comment #36: judybrowni  on  06/18  at  08:48 PM

Judy, Jesus freaks on the street can be pretty bad but the absolute worst are Mormon missionaries, because they try to come on your private property.

Thanks to those assholes I nearly turned away some poor Census worker because I thought he was Mormon at first.

Comment #37: Ben D.  on  06/18  at  08:53 PM

About 2 years ago my friend and I saw this woman on the other side of the street about to walk right by a skunk that was hidden behind a vent from the laundry room of an apartment building. We started shouting to get her attention and she noticed I guess but decided to not notice us which I got because it was 11 at night, dark and we were two guys she didn’t know so she pretty much walked right into the thing and got sprayed. Then it occurred to us that we might have freaked out the skunk by shouting and if she had just walked by it might have just run for it instead of trying to defend itself. That might sound like some kind of Bugs Bunny cartoon plot unless you live in a city with a lot of skunks. I hate them so much. I was mugged once and I’ve never been sprayed by a skunk but for whatever reason those things freak me out way more than the thought of getting mugged again.

Comment #38: pharmakos  on  06/18  at  08:55 PM

I ignore everyone on the street if I can. I just turn my ipod up and focus on some point in the distance as I walk. I have noticed a lot of my male relatives (mostly the baby boomers) have sort of become the “hello” police. They walk around saying hello to people and then bitch about how people just ignore each other on the street. I know my ipod is attributed to gen y rudeness, but I find it sort of liberating to ignore my surroundings, although some of the more persistent harassers still get my attention.

I have always sort of wondered what would happen if the tables were turned on the harassers. Like if someone shouted something out of a car and you started hitting on them. I don’t know if they would be like the proverbial dog that finally caught the car, or would be scared away by the whole female-agency thing. I am too afraid that it might result in violence or something to actually give it a whirl though.

Comment #39: alysia  on  06/18  at  08:57 PM

I have always sort of wondered what would happen if the tables were turned on the harassers. Like if someone shouted something out of a car and you started hitting on them.

I bet they’d just be kind of stunned.  My friend tried it with an aggressive panhandler once—he asked HIM for change right before he was about to ask my friend. His face just went blank and he was like “uh, what?”

Comment #40: Ben D.  on  06/18  at  09:01 PM

I know a woman who is actually a wiccan witch, and she’s scared the Mormons permanently from her door by posting one of those Halloween joke signs, “The witch is in!”

Hate to disagree with you, but since I’ve been working out in public, the Jesus freaks are worse to deal with than the Mormons.

Besides, for some reason, the Mormons gave up ringing doorbells in my liberal enclave about 20 years ago.

Comment #41: judybrowni  on  06/18  at  09:15 PM

Great post, Amanda. I also tune people (men, I guess) out on the street. I learned how in NYC, so I’m very good at the “stare straight ahead, don’t look them in the eye, and say ‘no, thanks’ if anyone hands you anything” thing. And, yep, most of the time it’s just some dude asking for directions. It sucks having to be a bad neighbor, but if men tried to be better neighbors and didn’t harass or called out other men who do, we wouldn’t have this problem.

It’s also important to keep hammering at the fact that there’s nothing one could do to “win” in a street harassment situation. So thank you for that! It seems so hopeless, but realizing that has been liberating for me. For me, the traumatizing aspect of being harassed has rarely been the act itself, but my inability to react to it “properly” and take back my agency in the situation. So I’d spend hours thinking “I should have cursed more” or “why didn’t I just laugh at him,” etc. Once I realized that any reaction is good for the harasser and there was nothing I could do, it was oddly liberating. Now I just ignore and laugh later with a friend or my husband, instead of beating myself up for hours for not being tough enough.

Comment #42: elena  on  06/18  at  09:19 PM

“Then it occurred to us that we might have freaked out the skunk by shouting and if she had just walked by it might have just run for it instead of trying to defend itself.”

Skunks don’t really do the “run for it” thing so much.  It’s one of the reasons they’re prone to getting hit by cars.  With a defense like that, you can stand your ground successfully far more often than not, until you come up against something that’s a force of destruction rather than a predator.

““Odds are I am in a hurry, and he/she is too.” Had to correct, pet peeve.”

Pretty sure the ship has sailed on the colloquial reliance on “they” as a response to English not having a proper gender-neutral third person singular.

Comment #43: preying mantis  on  06/18  at  09:29 PM

I too live in Seattle and I haven’t experienced much street harrassment of late, other than from panhandlers and the Clipboard Brigade. (Of late, I find that a polite no usually works for both sets of folks, although once I was lectured about my charities.)

Where I’ve lived before and levels of street harrassment:
Boston: almost none (but I drove most places or was with my boyfriend when I went downtown via transit), would get a little when I did walk places

San Francisco: I would avoid a few corners because of men that would congregate and make remarks about my body. Once in a club a guy got pissy because I wouldn’t dance with him and I removed his hands from my body. (Generally folks were pretty cool, so that kinda stood out.) Some guys on transit if nobody else was in the car. Oh, and once I walked by a guy masturbating in the Panhandle while female runners ran by.

Raleigh/Durham: If I was walking somewhere, guys would lean out of their cars and yell. No experience with the transit there. (There are no real sidewalks in many neighbourhoods and you often walk right on the edge of the road and some assholes in cars like to honk at you and make you jump, although that particular thing seems to be aimed at ANYBODY walking instead of driving around in cars like God intended.)

San Diego: ALL THE FRICKIN’ TIME. I loved Sandy Eggo (although not as much as I loved SF) but seriously, guys were commenting on my ass all the time: in parking lots, in malls, in transit. It got so bad that my coworkers and I took to carpooling together rather than take transit to work.

Calgary: Some while walking around downtown. Usually not when I was with people.

Utah: ALL THE TIME. I grew up there, and so most of my formative impressions about the behaviours of guys on the street is from stuff there. I remember guys remarking on my hair (too boyish for them, so I got called a lesbian a lot, which they meant perjoratively) or my body (back when I had very small breasts and was nearly flat) . I pretty much used to dread seeing guys walking in packs down the street. (In fact, I still have a sort of reflexive flinch when I see a bunch of fratty looking types in a group, because my experiences in Utah sorta led me to expect name calling and whistling and sometimes being surrounded and prodded until I gave them a reaction to hoot over.)

Comment #44: PixelFish  on  06/18  at  09:29 PM

Where the hell is the Time Cube guy and the nuts who claim the Earth is and always was fixed in space and that all post-Copernicus physics is part of elaborate fraud, along with Evolution and all other religions besides some proper flavor of Christianity?  Change it up dude…

Comment #45: MikeEss  on  06/18  at  10:19 PM

On religious twits pounding on your door:

My stepdad (before he met my mother) hit on a way to keep the Jehovah’s Witnesses forever from his door.

He simply answered the door buck-ass naked.

Comment #46: TheRealistMom  on  06/18  at  10:23 PM

A question for the antipodean people here:  Do you think that this is less of a problem in Australia/NZ than in the US?  I was talking with my partner about this, and she doesn’t feel that street harassment is an issue here (Melbourne, CBD/Inner suburbs), or in NZ (where we are from).

Comment #47: oldmunni  on  06/18  at  10:34 PM

Interesting that both men and bicyclists are harassed by other men, like women are.

Anybody who can be viewed as vulnerable, in other words. “I’ve got a ton of steel to your flimsy bicycle, bitch.” Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice.

As per usual, I have an anecdoate from sometime in the past 60 years that can top that.

The time I was harassed by a truck driver in a ten ton semi, who alternately sped up and rode the bumper of my little Ford Falcon while I was driving down a FUCKING MOUNTAIN. (Or what passes for a mountain in New Jersey.)

A terrifying 10 to 15 minutes of my life, finally the semi passed me, the truck driver leered and then pulled over at a diner at the bottom, waiting for the little blonde teenager.

Yeah, right, buddy. He’d made the mistake of turning off the engine, and thankfully a Ford Falcon was fast enough to get away before he could start the semi up again.

Comment #48: judybrowni  on  06/18  at  10:37 PM

Excellent post. There are a couple of points I have to slightly disagree with. The first is that the appearance of male ownership isn’t always a protection from street harassment. I once witnessed a guy yell something at a women who was waiting on a subway platform with her boyfriend. The guy who did the yelling was on a train about to depart, as was I. The guy then spent the next few minutes crowing to his friend about how awesome he was because he “didn’t care if there was a boyfriend, if there was a female [he] was going to say something”. In that case the presence of a male owner type only heightened the social prestige associated with harassing a woman. In anther instance I once used a really tacky ring flash to try and get a guy who had me cornered on a train to stop hitting on me. He actually used my engagement as a tactic to get my number. He kept insisting that he only wanted to be my friend, and was obviously not hitting on me since I was engaged. Never mind that his main reason for wanting to be my friend was because he thought I had a nice body

The other is more of an observation I suppose. Personally I don’t feel bad about ignoring guys on the street who need directions because I’ve had a few guys use needing directions as a way to get my attention before transitioning into the harassment. They’re also usually the ones who are most persistent after a rejection. One guy actually followed me around a bus station after I gave him some advice about which bus would go where. I ended up waiting an extra half hour for a later bus because his bus was the same as mine and I didn’t want to risk riding with him.

Comment #49: laterose  on  06/18  at  10:45 PM

Yeah, I was once completely flabbergasted by a passing street harasser who requested that I suck his cock while I was walking arm and arm with my boyfriend in New York.

I was accustomed to being harassed on my own, and hadn’t yet worked out a system to deal with the harassers, so that guy stumped me.

My guess: it was a power play directed against the two of us.

Comment #50: judybrowni  on  06/18  at  11:11 PM

This has been hugely helpful, thanks, y’all (especially judybrowni).  I don’t get catcalled much (fat, grey hair - not the usual target), but my 20-year-old daughter is harassed ALL the time, and that doesn’t count the creepy guys who come into the big-box home repair store where she works (one guy told her, in front of her coworkers, that he was wondering what she looks like in her underwear).  She’s perfecting The Death Stare, but this should give her more tools.

Comment #51: NobleExperiments  on  06/18  at  11:33 PM

In addition, your daughter might ask her supervisor if she can call him (or her) in, if she’s being harassed.

Where I work, I can call on a manager, when he’s in, who once rounded up a couple other male employees, who calmly asked the guy to take off, when nothing else moved him.

He was embarassed, but the guys stayed with me, until the harasser slunk off.

Comment #52: judybrowni  on  06/18  at  11:39 PM

A question for the antipodean people here:  Do you think that this is less of a problem in Australia/NZ than in the US?  I was talking with my partner about this, and she doesn’t feel that street harassment is an issue here (Melbourne, CBD/Inner suburbs), or in NZ (where we are from).

No idea.  I haven’t noticed it - but I’m large, and male, and look like a mugger. Cf “guys don’t get it” already covered.  I haven’t noticed it on the streets that I can remember - see above.

I’ll ask the EntangledChristian when I see her later.

Comment #53: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/18  at  11:57 PM

There’s a lot of harassment where I live; I’m not sexy enough for catcalls, but any female/foreigner/gay-looking guy walking around this town is going to get shouted at or have things thrown at them from douchebags in cars.  And I describe this to my friends and they think I’m crazy.  They all say “this never happens to me and I walk around all the time.”  And I say “Yeah, you’re a huge white guy.”  We have this exchange over and over again.  One guy got mad at me for giving him the finger, and I had to explain to him that my reaction to honking and incoherent shouting from a moving vehicle is not, and can never be, “oh hey, there’s my friend who wants to say hello.” 

There’s a 300 foot long bridge by my house, and once while crossing it at midnight I got harassed 3 times and one friend slowed down to wave.  So 30% of the cars that passed me wanted my attention, and 75% of those guys were random assholes, one of whom was wearing a Halloween mask in March which, you know, isn’t creepy at all.  And yet that fourth guy is all hurt and bewildered that I can’t give his shouty ways the benefit of the doubt.

Comment #54: Kyso K  on  06/19  at  12:06 AM

judy @42, I’ve never had a Mormon knock on my door, but they do haunt the buses here.  There are a pair working the bus that runs up my street right now, and I want to make up some cards to give them that say “If you want out, CALL ME”, because the whole mission thing seems horribly abusive.

I am a kook magnet and attract more mentally disturbed people than harassers - I once met a rather charming man on the bus who played Christmas carols for me by inflating his cheeks and rhythmically slapping them - but I certainly get the cyclist harassment.  This year on one of the first really warm days I was riding my bicycle in a sundress and was harassed no less than three times:

- by a boy who couldn’t have been older than 13,
- by some random douchebag in a car,
- and by a homeless guy. 

It wasn’t a particularly revealing dress or anything, I just was riding a bicycle in weather-appropriate clothing while female.

Comment #55: KristinMH  on  06/19  at  12:26 AM

As a transguy who only recently started being read consistently as male on the street, one of the weirder things has been suddenly being viewed as possibly threatening.  I was in New York a few weeks back and tried to ask a woman if I was walking in the direction of 8th ave., only to get an angry glare as she sped up and kept walking.  At first I thought she was just being rude, until it clicked that she probably assumed I was a street harrasser.  Funnily enough, I still have the same automatic “tune them out and keep walking” reaction to strange men talking to me on the street from bad past experiences.

Comment #56: Zombie, Lord Tennyson  on  06/19  at  12:48 AM

See, this is one of the things that isn’t addressed when people are talking about health and fitness in America. This is how lower-income people would have to get their exercise. But if people will inevitably be belligerent, threatening dicks to you when you go out walking, then that begins to seem more dangerous in the short-term than, say, staying inside, watching TV, and slowly dying of heart disease.

Comment #57: Selena777  on  06/19  at  12:52 AM

@anglscarlett—as a guy, I’m harassed on a bike, too, though of course not anywhere near at the level you have to put up with.  It’s an anti-bike thing which dovetails horribly with the anti-woman thing.

Comment #58: Punditus Maximus  on  06/19  at  01:04 AM

He lives in Seattle and claims that men are despised as second class citizens there and that true tolerance would be “letting men enjoy express how they enjoy the bodies of the women around them.” He then went on to insult another of my male friends as a “vagina american” for agreeing with me, and refused to acknowledge that a guy should ever have to regulate his behavior because it makes a woman uncomfortable. 
Comment #12: SoylentH on 06/18 at 05:47 PM

So when a man does something that makes a woman uncomfortable, that’s okay, but when a woman does something that makes a man uncomfortable, that’s not okay.  I guess his explanation would be that the woman should not be uncomfortable because what the man is doing is “natural.”

Comment #59: oldfeminist  on  06/19  at  01:28 AM

****Either they beep and scare the crap out of me, or the yell things out their window, or they stop at corners and make a big show of letting me go and then say hello and try to chat me up.  Far worse, I have had the only alarmingly scary experiences with men in my life, on my bike.****

I’ve gotta say that probably a good half of that harassment is because you are a cyclist, not because you are a woman. ALL cyclists get harassed by (mostly) male drivers because we have the temerity to ride on THEIR roads and therefore are interfering with their testosterone flow.

Comment #60: Bruce from Missouri  on  06/19  at  01:30 AM

I do tend to deal with street harassment by being oblivious, so I understand that.  It was funny- one of my guy friends noticed both a) that there are a lot of people that harass us when we’re walking* and b) my normally observant self missed it.

I know the intelligent thing to do is ignore it.  But, I just find myself unable to do it.  When it penatrates my bubble of oblivious I am, in the following order, likely to a) give the “boob of justice” (Sticking out my tongue while aiming my breast like a gun) b) flip them off and c) yell at them.  I find invading their personal space tends to get them to back the fuck off.

Of course, I’m in a low-crime area, have 200 pounds on me, carry a knife, and can look fairly intimidating.  I don’t think this is an option for everyone- indeed, I doubt it’s a smart option for me.  But street harassment hits my “righteous indignation” button.

Comment #61: Antigone  on  06/19  at  01:38 AM

Being female is scary.  We create walls and deny the reality, but the fact is we live in a world where half the people are larger, have more muscles due to testosterone, and grow up knowing that they are better than we are.
Sure, most of the time they don’t intend (much) harm, but you can’t know when that time is.  You can’t know what the “right” response will be.  And any man, even a homeless guy begging you for change, will tell you to “smile” for him.
All I know to do is teach my son to respect women, to stand up to other boys who don’t , and to protect his sisters as best he can.

This. I’m going to steal this, if I may, and publicize this as much as I can. I’m a guy, and I don’t think a lot of guys realize how terrifying it is to be a woman….as I read somewhere, the worst a guy has to fear when going on a date is having a bad date; a woman has to fear getting killed.
I’ve learned to attract a woman’s (actually women and older people’s) attention on the street by stopping about ten meters away, making eye contact and generally trying to look as non-threatening as possible…..I’m a big black dude, and when I first moved to North America I had people cross the road, roll up the window or even once scream when I approached them for directions, until I painfully realized that here, big black dude = automatic criminal, and I modified my behaviour to attract people’s attention way before I was anywhere near them.

Comment #62: Jude  on  06/19  at  01:41 AM

It took quite a while before I realized most Seattle guys (and girls) are extreme introverts and their at times hostile attitude is a result of shyness and fear.  I suspect that that guy is too afraid to be friendly and open, thus winning women over.  It’s too bad for him that he prefers to be resentful, but lucky for women if that keeps him off the dating scene.
Comment #26: keshmeshi on 06/18 at 06:48 PM

Introversion is not shyness and fear.  It’s a preference not to interact with other people because interactions with other people are energy-draining. 

The fact that you have trouble with the idea of ignoring others on the street suggests you’re an extrovert.  Great.  Extroverts have many great qualities.  But so do introverts.  Don’t assume people who aren’t extroverts are broken somehow.

Interesting how you blame the Seattle guy’s problems on introversion.  I wouldn’t think that guy isn’t all afraid to be friendly and open.  I suspect instead he’s running around thinking he’s the sunshine to make the day of all these gloomy Seattle chicks, and instead they’re just not interested and therefore ignoring him or even telling him to leave them alone.  This upsets him because it’s “natural” for people to interact on the street all the time in happy friendly extroverted ways, so anyone who rejects him is unnatural and weird.

Comment #63: oldfeminist  on  06/19  at  01:48 AM

Have any of you all ever tried headphones?

Obviously. And I think it does help (at the very least a careful non-reaction is more believable when you’ve got headphones, even if you don’t have music on or you can hear over it.)

But it certainly isn’t sufficient. One time I was on a bus (wearing my headphones, as I do—and we’re talking big, clunky, blatant headphones, not little earbuds) at night and this guy sitting sort of perpendicular to me starts trying to talk to me. So I ignore him, ignore him, don’t make eye contact… and he’s trying to give me some sunglasses “here, I want you to have these!” but I don’t even look at them.

So the guy hands the sunglasses over to these two younger guys sitting across from me “hey, give her the sunglasses!” and then those two fucking assholes lean over towards me and start trying to hand me the glasses. And I’ve still got my headphones on, and I’m still studiously ignoring them, but now 3/4 of my field of view is off-limits because I have guys on two sides of me cheerfully cooperating, despite being total strangers to one another, in my harassment. And I’m in the seat absolutely closest to the bus driver, it’s 10pm and dark out, he can hear everything, he doesn’t say a word…

Thank fuck no one followed me off that bus ‘cause those headphones wouldn’t have done shit in that case.

Comment #64: Bagelsan  on  06/19  at  05:55 AM

I don’t want to be a bad neighbor.

What choice do I have, though?

Total cosign to this, too. One time I was walking home from work in the evening, and I saw a bunch of kids hanging out in front of a McDonalds. They were boys, maybe middle school age. One of the boys was doing this cool little trick on his bike when I got near them and I was literally opening my mouth to say “hey, that’s awesome!” when the whole fucking little gang saw me and started yelling “whoo, shake that ass” and whatnot. They yelled at me the entire way down the block.

I was able to play it off (yay headphones!) that I couldn’t hear them. Unlike the woman who passed me in the opposite direction, sans headphones, and gave me a long-suffering look as she entered their zone of harassment and I left it. So I was okay, comparatively. And now I laugh about it: “come on, they were like 12! Shouldn’t the little wanna-be jailbaits have been in bed by then?”

But damned if I ever try to compliment a pack of little boys again.

Comment #65: Bagelsan  on  06/19  at  06:04 AM

Here in Tokyo you don’t get much street harassment.  It’s one of those things I’m not looking forward to as far as moving back to the US.  Mostly you get perverts trying to touch you on the train or while you’re walking somewhere and the occasional guy who grunts something at the point where you JUST pass each other.  Some guys will harass you and follow you if they want to recruit you for stuff, but if you ignore them they move on to the next girl. 

What I really can’t stand are the foreign guys who bitch and moan about how no one says hello to them.  I’ve heard so many of my coworkers complain about how when they make eye contact and say hello to another foreigner, the foreigner doesn’t reply.  Doesn’t matter if it’s a man or a woman—no one is required to talk to you on the street.  One of the things I LIKE about this city is that people don’t bug you and whistle and tell you to smile.  I know we’re both foreigners in a foreign land but I do not want to talk to you.  I want to go where I’m going.

I’m still annoyed by the dude who told me that women need street harassment to make them stronger.

Comment #66: BonAppetit  on  06/19  at  08:11 AM

He lives in Seattle and claims that men are despised as second class citizens there and that true tolerance would be “letting men express how they enjoy the bodies of the women around them.” He then went on to insult another of my male friends as a “vagina american” for agreeing with me, and refused to acknowledge that a guy should ever have to regulate his behavior because it makes a woman uncomfortable. ~ Comment #12: SoylentH on 06/18 at 05:47 PM

Because that’s what we are, just… bodies. Bodies for others to enjoy. Things to acted upon. We have no right to feel uncomfortable if strangers are commenting on our bodies in a sexual manner, because we are public property put there to perform the service of femininity for the enjoyment of men. If we do not pretend to like this unwanted attention we are being mean and making men uncomfortable, which is just unnatural. We can’t be uncomfortable with men’s behavior because it makes men uncomfortable if don’t bow down to them. We exist to make men comfortable, whether that be in their self-expression or sexuality. Hypocritical and entitled… bet he’s a catch. Stellar “friend” you’ve got there, Soylent H.

Comment #67: Princess Rot  on  06/19  at  08:41 AM

#58

See, this is one of the things that isn’t addressed when people are talking about health and fitness in America. This is how lower-income people would have to get their exercise. But if people will inevitably be belligerent, threatening dicks to you when you go out walking, then that begins to seem more dangerous in the short-term

#66

I was literally opening my mouth to say “hey, that’s awesome!” when the whole fucking little gang saw me and started yelling “whoo, shake that ass” and whatnot. They yelled at me the entire way down the block.

...

But damned if I ever try to compliment a pack of little boys again.

Yeah, it would be quite a task to try and tally up all the damage this shit does, all the ways it constrains women. And it is true that men, if they don’t want to see this tendency in their own gender, can ignore it. Really interesting thread y’all.

Comment #68: atheist  on  06/19  at  09:32 AM

Have any of you all ever tried headphones? I do that to avoid panhandlers and Jesus nuts, it seems to work for the most part.

Let me just add to the DUH!  Yes, we’ve tried headphones.  Just like everything we try to avoid being harassed/raped.

It’s not the victim’s fault that she’s being harrassed.

It is the fault of the harasser, and of a society that teaches them that they have a right to harass and teaches women that they have to be “nice” and “smile” and if they aren’t nice then they are bitches, but if being nice gets them raped, well, they should have been more careful.

Fuck this shit.  It’s not the woman’s fault for wearing/not wearing headphones!  Seriously.  Do you think we haven’t thought of that?  Sometimes it works, and sometimes it makes the harrasser more aggressive, and you don’t get to know which guy will act in which way.

You get a pass when wearing headphones b/c men are busy people and have a right to privacy and listening to music without being harassed.  Women are there to smile and be nice and put others’ needs before their own b/c that’s just their nature.  She won’t mind interrupting her revery—she’ll enjoy the attention, and maybe even give out blowjobs in gratitude.

You’re smarter than this, BenD.

Comment #69: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  06/19  at  09:58 AM

#20

Being female is scary.  We create walls and deny the reality, but the fact is we live in a world where half the people are larger, have more muscles due to testosterone, and grow up knowing that they are better than we are.

Sure, most of the time they don’t intend (much) harm, but you can’t know when that time is.  You can’t know what the “right” response will be.  And any man, even a homeless guy begging you for change, will tell you to “smile” for him.

All I know to do is teach my son to respect women, to stand up to other boys who don’t , and to protect his sisters as best he can.

Caren-SbCAP, that’s pretty much the bottom line isn’t it. It is terrible to feel so weak. I will remember that & use it.

#63

I’ve learned to attract a woman’s (actually women and older people’s) attention on the street by stopping about ten meters away, making eye contact and generally trying to look as non-threatening as possible…..I’m a big black dude, and when I first moved to North America I had people cross the road, roll up the window or even once scream when I approached them for directions, until I painfully realized that here, big black dude = automatic criminal

& Jude thanks for the reminder, the way the fear of men also ties into fear of blacks/racism. What a thorny Gordian Knot.

Comment #70: atheist  on  06/19  at  10:05 AM

He then went on to insult another of my male friends as a “vagina american” for agreeing with me

Calling someone that definitely makes it clear he harasses women because he “appreciates” them, and not at all because he hates women and wants to dominate them.

Comment #71: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/19  at  10:16 AM

Street harassment is something black radicals do to keep women under the control of the left wing of this country.  How do I know this?  I don’t, really, but it’s an argument made by an idiot at The American Thinker.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/06/the_lefts_sexual_terrorism_1.html

(In case you were wondering, of course there’s an Obama reference.)

Comment #72: 3letterjon  on  06/19  at  10:34 AM

So, all those random douchebags were really black radicals wearing makeup! Good to know.

Comment #73: atheist  on  06/19  at  10:39 AM

It’s really strange but this shit happens to me more when I’m out bicycling than any other time in my life.  I don’t get it.  I’m completely flummoxed by it. 

I think it’s a couple of things.  Bicycling has a much different cultural meaning than jogging.  Women that are jogging are seen as engaging in an acceptable form of exercise aimed at losing or controlling weight. But once a woman’s exercise becomes about anything else, it’s amazing how much some men are threatened.  If you don’t believe it, read the comments at any relatively unmonitored blog when women’s athletics come up.  It will be a cesspool of men making fun of female athletes, saying no one cares, that only idiots like women’s sports, and women who play sports are fooling themselves—-trying to be men is the implication. 

Bicycling is associated with strength, racing, and transportation.  It’s an indication that a woman lives in the world, and doesn’t exist strictly for aesthetic/sexual value.  It’s threatening.  Plus, there’s the hippie vibe.  A lot of car people feel guilty when they see bicyclists who aren’t wasting gas and are taking care of their health, so they lash out.  Male bicyclists experience this, too.

Obviously, this isn’t about all men or even most men.  (I feel stupid having to point this out, but some people want to go there.)  I lift weights and most men at the gym seem to be completely and blessedly indifferent, or see women who do strength training as fellow travelers.  But it only takes a few bad apples to poison the bunch.

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/19  at  10:54 AM

I’m pretty much in agreement, but “In this way, it’s really no different than a regime where men randomly trip women in the street, and it’s perfectly legal to do so while women have no legal recourse.  How you fall—-if you aim for flat on your face or try to land on your shoulder—-you’re still bruised and helpless. “

The truth is, it’s possible to learn how to fall safely (physical ability and other resources permitting), and valuable to do so—falls are a major cause of injury. You don’t need to end up bruised and helpless.

This being said, if men were permitted to trip women on the street, it would at least be a distraction and a loss of quality of life even when there’s no injury.

Comment #75: Nancy Lebovitz  on  06/19  at  11:12 AM

It’s a fascinating article.  Sexual harassers are black radical liberals who ask “Where the white women at?” while it was a Jew and William Ayers who really called the shots.  And she doesn’t exactly come out and say that Obama’s white mother slept with his black father in a controlled attempt to enlist him to the Communist/Socialist/Leftist cause, but in the context of the article it becomes a fair question.

Comment #76: 3letterjon  on  06/19  at  11:21 AM

Actually the only question the article raises for me is, “Does Robin of Berkeley smoke crack?”

Comment #77: atheist  on  06/19  at  11:47 AM

Great article, and I really agree with this: ” Street harassment reduces trust, reduces friendliness, reduces even safety—-often in ways that don’t seem immediately apparent.”  I would say though, that that’s true about ALL sexual abuse in general.  I can’t count the number of women, myself included, who defaulted into suspicion of all men until proven otherwise because of abuse.

Jude - I’m sorry for your experience.  That must be tough.  There’s a lot of racism mixed in that.  I have to say in my experience there’s no dominant race in street harassment - I seriously think racism plays into the perception that this a black male thing.

3letterjohn- you read that stuff so that the rest of us don’t have to….  I’m curious what that thinker has to say about sexual abuse in general.  A conspiracy by male-resembling lesbians to turn all women gay?

Comment #78: Lurker  on  06/19  at  12:02 PM

I think that Robin of Berkeley only thinks women are oppressed if an Islamist is involved, or a crypto-Islamist Kenyan/Indonesian* is part of the conspiracy.  Because liberals don’t want to bomb every Muslim in the entire world, it is proof that we support “honor” murders and sharia law.

Also, I think I’m going to give up and re-register as 4letterjon as a special way of giving up.

*If you think Robin of Berkeley is nutty, try Pamela Gellar’s stellar blockbuster of a “scoop”: http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/06/report_obama_said_i_am_a_musli.html

Money quote: “The American people deserve answers. But whether or not what Gheit reportedly says is true, Obama’s pro-jihad track record is clear.”

Comment #79: 3letterjon  on  06/19  at  12:15 PM

A question for the antipodean people here:  Do you think that this is less of a problem in Australia/NZ than in the US?

Y’know, oldmunni, I was just thinking the same thing re the UK.  Now, I’m a bit past my 20’s prime (ie am now in my 30’s), but even then I could count the number of times I got shouted at on maybe two hands.  And even then, it tended to be shouts from passing cars - quickly gone - and never men actually on the street as I was walking past. 

I recall a big thing sometime in the 80’s when builders generally were being taken to task in the media over wolfwhistling and whatnot, and it hardly ever happens nowadays - from what little I know, street harrassment now seems to be a sacking offence.

This is only my experience here, and of course far from universal.  I’m white and middle class, and have those privileges going for me, but my overall impression from these comments is that street harrassment seems to be a far more frequent occurrence in the US than it is here.

Comment #80: Katherine  on  06/19  at  01:12 PM

But it only takes a few bad apples to poison the bunch.

That’s why one of the local gyms has a ‘women-only’ weight-lifting section.

it’s possible to learn how to fall safely (physical ability and other resources permitting),

I’m naturally clumsy, I’ve never had to work at it grin .  I’ve learned through experience how to stop a fall or land without any damage.

I have a granduncle who has a black belt in Karate, and I asked him about his training, and he said learning how to fall(and taking a lot of them) was a major part of it.

Amanda, have you been writing under a psedonym at Cracked.com?

Some people think women like being lied to and mistreated by “alpha male” types, but these are generally people who study women only by reading books and being rejected. A lot of women enjoy some level of mischief and roguishness in a man, but not the level that would ditch them without a callback number and leave gifts such as a pregnancy, an STD or the privilege of being an entry in a book of “conquests.” The thought of that is not usually appealing to a woman when being picked up on, because I guess women are just crazy.

Comment #81: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/19  at  01:14 PM

if so can the next article be why “chick flicks” make me want to swear off movies for ever?

Comment #82: Leah Jaclyn  on  06/19  at  02:13 PM

judybrowni @21, thanks, I read the original post. If you feel like picking a fight, please pretend somebody else disagreed with you and jump all over their ass; I don’t have the energy today.

Jude @63, interestingly, I can count on one hand the number of a times somebody who’s hassled me on the street was other than a white guy.

Comment #83: mythago  on  06/19  at  03:26 PM

I can count on one hand the number of a times somebody who’s hassled me on the street was other than a white guy.

I’m not harassed anywhere enough to establish statistical significance (thank goodness!) but really it just seems like guys of any color do it in about equal numbers… When I’ve lived in mostly white cities it’s mostly white guys, and when I’ve lived in more diverse cities it’s more diverse guys.

And it’s interesting trying to navigate the racism (and other ism’s) issue along with surviving the sexism. When white-and-able-bodied me puts on my headphones and “bitch face” and ignores guys on the street sometimes I’m worried that “oh, he’s going to think I ignored him ‘cause he’s black” or “oh, he’s going to think I didn’t make eye contact ‘cause he’s in a wheelchair” or something like that. But it’s really not safe to try and guilt yourself into making exceptions, either.

Comment #84: Bagelsan  on  06/19  at  03:58 PM

I seriously think racism plays into the perception that this a black male thing.

Definitely. And I wonder if there’s also any general difference in how different groups of guys harass, like if black men are more likely to casually yell “nice ass!” while white men are more likely to be like “that’s a nice dress” and then silently stare at you for the entire bus ride (both true stories.) It’s easy to point out that the former one is harassment, but it’s harder to put your finger on the second one, so someone might decide (incorrectly) that the first man was a harasser while the second one wasn’t.

I find it unlikely that you could point to white men and be like “these guys don’t harass!” and then point to black men and be like “these guys do!” but I wonder if there are cultural/racial differences in how men (in the US, at least) harass which could make one style of harassment more overt or memorable. (And of course, there’s the whole “a white guy who harasses is an asshole, a black guy who harasses is proof that all black guys harass” which really is just straight-up racism.)

Comment #85: Bagelsan  on  06/19  at  04:11 PM

#85

sometimes I’m worried that “oh, he’s going to think I ignored him ‘cause he’s black” or “oh, he’s going to think I didn’t make eye contact ‘cause he’s in a wheelchair” or something like that. But it’s really not safe to try and guilt yourself into making exceptions, either.

Yeah, Bagelsan, the other thing is that it really doesn’t matter what reason a harasser tells himself that you ignored him. You’re ignoring the harasser to protect your self and your self respect. That’s the important thing here.

Comment #86: atheist  on  06/19  at  04:12 PM

Interesting thoughts on bicycling Amanda.

Comment #87: JennyLI  on  06/19  at  04:33 PM

Bruce @ 61, I believe that.  I never even imagined that men experience harrassment on bikes until I met my bf who also cycles.  And it definitely happens to him.

Comment #88: JennyLI  on  06/19  at  04:35 PM

# 63 Jude

I’m really sorry that you have to put so much mental energy into trying to make White folks not be scared of you.

I’m a large Black man who - because of my light complexion - usually “reads” as Latino, but I can still understand what you’re going through.

And, for the record, despite your quite astonishingly elaborate efforts to create a 35 foot comfort zone between you and Caucasian women and old people, I’ve known enough White folks to know that to the racist ones, that won’t even matter - they’ll still hate and fear you anyway

So, quite frankly, you shouldn’t even bother - because their fear has nothing to do with you and everything to do with their racism

============================================================

Now, as for the folks who condemn so called “aggressive panhandlers” - I’m really stuck by the in-your-face classism of your comments!

It’s one thing to condemn sexist assholes for harassing women on the streets - it’s a whole other ballgame to whine because some desperate impoverished person begs you for alms on the street - and to use a phrase [“Aggressive Panhandler”] coined by arch racist police state thug Republican Rudolph Giuliani when you do so!

For God’s sake, these are homeless beggars - many of whom are disabled, some of whom got those disabilities fighting for this country’s armed forces and all of whom live in deep destitution!

Is it really going to hurt you to give them a God damned quarter?

Comment #89: GregoryAButler  on  06/19  at  05:38 PM

Katherine @81:  Maybe it doesn’t happen to women where you live very much, or maybe it happens so much that it’s ingrained as so normal that having five to ten different complete strangers yell insults or threats at you at five to ten completely different times in your life registers as no big deal.  I mean, fuck, that’s a lot of times.

My experience is that even though having it be background noise is its own kind of wearing trauma, the less frequently it happens, the more shocking it is each time.  Before I moved to my current city, I could have counted the times it happened to me on one hand.  And I could have described each time in minute detail, years later, because it was so stunning that a complete stranger would turn around and say something about my tits, or drive by and ask how much I charged, or the rest of it.  That shit is really and truly stunning.

Comment #90: sophonisba  on  06/19  at  05:53 PM

Replying to myself:  I really dislike the way I emphasized “complete stranger” there, as though it is somehow less offensive to be insulted or threatened by a friend or an acquaintance.  But what actually makes it so infuriating and hateful is not that I’m being insulted by someone who doesn’t know me, it’s that I am just as much a stranger to him as he is to me; a completely unknown quantity.  And it never enters his head to be scared of what I might do to him.  That’s why the stranger part is so galling.

Comment #91: sophonisba  on  06/19  at  06:00 PM

For God’s sake, these are homeless beggars - many of whom are disabled, some of whom got those disabilities fighting for this country’s armed forces and all of whom live in deep destitution!

Is it really going to hurt you to give them a God damned quarter?
Comment #90: GregoryAButler on 06/19 at 04:38 PM

Beggars can be assholes, too.  I’m not going to give money to someone who’s harassing me.  I have to consider my own safety and sanity.

Comment #92: oldfeminist  on  06/19  at  06:22 PM

@73

Oh wow.  And, to top it off, that woman’s a psychotherapist!  I haven’t felt so ashamed of my profession since Dr. Laura. 

I really love how righties like to act like they are the Bravest People Evar because they can hold right wing opinions in places like Berkeley.  I mean, they run the risk of being disagreed with every day so, you know, it’s not for the faint of heart.

Comment #93: Captain Bathrobe  on  06/19  at  06:33 PM

#84 mythago, apparently you’ve repurposed an old saw: you’ve got nothing to say, and so you’ve said nothing.

Comment #94: judybrowni  on  06/19  at  07:34 PM

I always felt age was more a factor in street harassment than race. Groups of guys from 15-35 are always a red flag when it comes to avoiding trouble in public. One trick that no one has brought up yet: speak in a foreign language. It’s reacting but without giving them the satisfaction of thinking their harassment has gotten through.  Even if it’s just a few butchered phrases of something fairly obscure. Who knew Ancient Greek paeans could ward off modern day creeps.

Comment #95: scrumby  on  06/19  at  08:15 PM

I usually give at least a buck to panhandlers, if I can afford it, and I feel like it, and they haven’t been guys harassing me.

And sometimes they then ask for a five! Which I politely refuse to do, even if I’m more than a bit exasperated.

Ah well, it’s usually not rocket scientists who become homeless beggars, but the addled and disabled, and people whose problems you wouldn’t ever want.

And some of ‘em do use whatever money they panhandle for drugs and alcohol, and some of them need your dollar to simply survive.

One day I decided to give $1 to everyone who asked in my part of town, but was cleaned out in a couple hours of $12, at which point I quit

Linda, the disabled panhandler I’ve befriended, will sometimes spend a full day panhandling for $18, or the rare day, $100.

As a side-note, two of the local homeless characters, who I know by sight, recently helped the police stop a murder. A celebrity chef (it’s made all the news, look it up) approached them and offered several thousands dollars if they’d kill his wife, and make it look like a burglary.

Instead they went to the police and wore a wire to the planning meeting and the murder-for-hire landed the celebrity chef in the clink, and saved his wife’s life.

They weren’t the first the murderous chef had approached with his insane plan, but they were the first to turn him in to the police.

Yeah, you and I would of course do the same, but these were guys who sleep outside, and no, they didn’t even have the sense to clean up with their after-the-fact “story” from the sleaze press.

One of them said something to the effect, “I may be homeless, but I have morals,” and I rheard that another hoped their good deed might spur his social worker to get him and his girlfriend to the top of the list for a low-cost apartment.

He turned down thousands of dollars and hoped for nothing more than a roof over their heads.

But I suppose our Pandagon Scrooges would ask:

‘Are there no prisons?’

‘Plenty of prisons,’ said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

‘And the Union workhouses.’ demanded Scrooge. ‘Are they still in operation?’

‘They are. Still,’ returned the gentleman,’ I wish I could say they were not.’

‘The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?’ said Scrooge.

‘Both very busy, sir.’

‘Oh. I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,’ said Scrooge. ‘I’m very glad to hear it.’

Comment #96: judybrowni  on  06/19  at  08:39 PM

And if they truly are desperate, what they need is not your pocket change.

Someday,  Chet, you’re going to meet someone who decides to give you what you need instead of what you want.  It’ll be a special day.

Comment #97: sophonisba  on  06/19  at  08:58 PM

I got harassed when I lived in Greensboro, NC quite a lot. I think it was because I walked a lot when I lived there, and walking makes you a target for guys in cars. I specifically learned to ignore people who seemed to be asking for directions, because not once, but twice, guys asked me for directions in normal, polite fashion. And then as soon as I stopped walking and started giving directions, they whipped out their penises.

I did once ignore a friend of mine who’d pulled over and was calling to me to give me a ride, because my only thought process was “Oh Jesus, what kind of asshole is yelling at me now?” (This was soon after the second flashing incident.) Finally he called out who he was, and only then did I realize he wasn’t someone trying to get my attention to harass me or flash me.

I even got harassed while walking with my boyfriend once—“Hey! Hey! Hey! You have a fat ass!” from a couple of young guys in an SUV.

I mostly got harassed/flashed by young white guys, if we’re keeping score. (I’m white.)

Someone upthread used the phrase “attention seeking.” That seems to be the heart of it. Whether it’s “compliments” or verbal abuse, the harasser feels entitled to your attention. You can’t have a life that doesn’t include them.

Judy Brown’s method works okay for the most part when you and your harasser are both on foot, but when you’re walking and the harasser is in a car, you don’t get a chance to say or do anything in response. There’s basically no way to break out of your status as “object” to guys in cars, unless you throw something at their car, which risks violent response. Anyway, they’re probably long gone by the time you can grab anything to throw.

Comment #98: snowmentality  on  06/19  at  09:01 PM

I may be a Pandagon Scrooge, but when the guy you just gave a dollar to starts harassing you for another dollar, and doing it by constantly being in your personal space as well as following you, and this happens quite often with different people, you are moved to not give to anyone.  I really can’t be sure which guy is going to get aggressive for more money.  I see nothing wrong with someone who does not give money to panhandlers nor do I see them as horrible people who hate their fellow man who’s down on their luck. 

I don’t keep cash on me anymore, so it’s less of a problem.  I’ll only take out cash if I need to, which means I don’t have a dime to spare most of the time.

Comment #99: SporkeyO  on  06/19  at  09:24 PM

Sorry, SporkeyO, the Scrooge bit wasn’t aimed at you or anyone who has been harassed by a panhandler, but at Chet who has fantasies that the panhandlers put on makeup to earn a classy living and retire to their beach condos at night.

As I’ve said, I give money only when I wan to, and have only really been frightened after the transaction by an obviously schizoid woman. If your experience has been more fraught, no wonder you don’t want to give.

No one is obliged to give to panhandlers, or respond to any stranger on the street.

But of the two panhandlers I got to know because I live in a walk neighborhood. neither fit in Chet’s fantasy of uppermiddle class fakes, both were disabled: one more physically disabled (with some schizophrenia thrown in), and the other both mentally and physically disabled.

Each can be exasperating in their own way, but again, you wouldn’t want to have to live in their skins. In each case, I know what public assistance they get, and it isn’t adequate to both house and feed either.

The more mentally disabled is in and out of housing, he’s really not capable of keeping it together. The more physically disabled is in low-cost housing, which must be paid for out of her monthly pittance, and there’s not much left over.

But she cheerfully panhandles, “works” eight hours or more a day at it. Although she’s often in pain.

Comment #100: judybrowni  on  06/19  at  09:48 PM

It’s so easy for men to see this as an equal-opportunity urban thing when it really isn’t (speaking as someone who used to put on Scary Face whenever someone moved toward him with any apparent intention of opening their mouth, and yes, that includes you, tourists standing next to the christopher street subway entrance asking where to find greenwich village). But even as something nominally equal-opportunity it so thoroughly plays into gender/power distinctions that it can’t be well intentioned.

(I also once spent a summer right after college with a construction crew and ask why they—mostly “politely”—harassed women. One of the answers stayed with me, because I think that unpacking it actually says something useful. They were/claimed to be upset at being treated as street furniture: hundreds of people, all higher in social class, passed by them two or four times a day, five days a week, months on end, sometimes even stopped to look at what they were doing, but would no more think of acknowledging them than they would would think of talking to someone’s dog about the weather. So of course whom do these guys at the bottom of one local power scale think of insisting on the attention of.)

Comment #101: paul  on  06/19  at  10:29 PM

I admit my question about headphones was badly, and stupidly, worded.

I was genuinely curious about effectiveness, not suggesting women are so stupid as to not to try it, or that they deserved being harassed for not wearing them.  Being male, I have little to no perspective on how effective they are against street sexual harassers. I just know they are mostly effective against aggressive panhandlers or Jesus nuts, and wondered if they were similarly effective against sexual street harassers. From what I’ve read, they are much less so.

Comment #102: Ben D.  on  06/19  at  11:52 PM

I just know they are mostly effective against aggressive panhandlers or Jesus nuts

Maybe they are if you’re wearing them while male, or if you have them turned up so high you genuinely can’t hear what’s being said to you.  They are uniformly ineffective for me against harassment of any and all types.  Sexual harassers are no more persistent than anybody else.

The difference isn’t in the character of the harassers, it’s in the gender of the passer-by.

Comment #103: sophonisba  on  06/20  at  12:09 AM

Harassment is set up to make you helpless—-everything you can do in response is going to make things worse for you.

Or at least make of you the harasser’s temporary subject, in so far as anything you do (or don’t do) once you’re addressed in this fashion MUST be done/not done in reaction to his address. I never really understood/could articulate what it was that bothered me so much about street harassment on principle until I came across Althusser’s discussion of “interpellation” years back.

Just today, an attractive woman was walking ahead of myself and husband on the street and two guys—chipper, student-y types—got in her path and pulled the “I’m polite! I’m introducing myself to you, lady, putting you in the position of having to shake my outstretched hand and tell me your name when I tell you mine, or risk looking rude!” trick (fuck, I hate that trick!). And she did, reluctantly, because that’s the way it plays. I slowed down and monitored—ready to do the “Hey, it’s me Jen—we met at Jen’s!” counter move to extract her—but she wormed away from the worms after a few awkward seconds and walked safely nearby us to another destination.

Comment #104: Ranylt  on  06/20  at  01:13 AM

This is splitting hairs, but… schizoid =/ schizophrenia, judybrowni. From what I’ve read, it sounds like schizophrenia and schizoid disorder might be kinda sorta distantly related, but the outward behavior of a schizoid person is completely different - way harder to spot in the space of a minute, for one thing.

Comment #105: Zeff  on  06/20  at  01:42 AM

How much of this is related to, say, the huge blogwar blowup a few years ago, which was basically the biggest ever argument about ‘tone’ ever? I mean, basically, it’s all about men being assholes and other men demanding that women be civil about it, then refusing to admit it. Harassers are just more men being assholes in a slightly different way.

And, boy, does this shit wear on you. It’s not so much the harassers and various other assholes; it’s people who don’t see it for what it is.

Comment #106: ginmar  on  06/20  at  05:03 AM

Coda:

I’ll ask the EntangledChristian when I see her later.

The EntangledChristian said she noticed it a few times when she was younger,but not since turning 30 or so in NZ.  She was a bit taken aback - I get the impression that even then it was a lot rarer than it seems to be as described above.

Oh, and libdevil?  Still happy.  So’s she. 8-P

Comment #107: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/20  at  05:17 AM

I’m another who won’t have anything to do with male panhandlers—too many of them are dirt mean.  I’ll usually stop for female panhandlers though. 

ginmar nailed it—the assholes are always demanding we be civil in response to their assholery.  No thanks. 

I have a new hobby on buses: I keep any eye on the other women, and if some dude bugs them, I verbally tear him a new one.  It doesn’t reduce the amount of harassment I get, but it gives me somewhere useful to funnel the outrage.

Comment #108: Helen Huntingdon  on  06/20  at  09:29 AM

Chet’s been reading a few too many steampunk novels, I see. As well as embracing a new fondness for the false dichotomy.

Gregory @90: yes, it is going to hurt me to give a goddamned quarter to somebody who is harassing or threatening me to make them go away. Is it OK for a sexist asshole to harass me on the street as long as he wants beer money rather than pussy?

Look, I work in an urban area that is full of desperate, often homeless folks. These aren’t the guys Chet’s raging about who go get their lawn chairs and a “Veteran Please Help” sign because they think they’ll make good money sitting outside the mall panhandling. You can see these people ‘off duty’ wandering the streets talking to imaginary people or having bizarre conversations with each other or sleeping in doorways. They, for the most part, do not harass or threaten people, unless you consider rocking back and forth and repeating “Spare change?” to everybody who walks by harassing. They don’t escalate to threats because a) a lot of them really aren’t capable of that and b) the ones who are, figure out pretty quick that’s not the way to do well as a panhandler, because you’ll get arrested and/or most people will stop giving you money.

So, sorry, if I just gave my coffee money or half my lunch to the guy who politely booms out “Good afternoon!” to everybody walking by his chair on the sidewalk, I’m not going to give a goddamn quarter to some other guy half a block up who steps in front of me and gets abusive if I give him money. I guess that’s just me being all classist and shit.

Comment #109: mythago  on  06/20  at  10:34 AM

should be “don’t give him money” in @111, obviously, but I think you get the point.

Comment #110: mythago  on  06/20  at  10:37 AM

A male friend of mine was truly shaken to learn that this might be the reason the girl he was waving at on his daily commute seemed to be seeing but ignoring him. I felt really bad for him, since he’s the sort of guy who would never harass anyone.

Comment #111: ttintagel  on  06/20  at  10:57 AM

“Comment #6: Gracchus on 06/18 at 05:30 PM”

Exactly, this sort of assholery slowly erodes the overall sense of community and human decency by forcing people to isolate themselves in public. It’s not exactly the same thing, but it reminds me of the way the patronizing douchebags who cut women off to beat them to a door or stand there waiting to open the door for them when they’re about 100 feet away create a somewhat impossible feeling scenario whereby we’re forced to choose risking looking like a douchebag for opening the door for someone about 5 steps or so behind you or actually being an asshole and letting the door swing shut on them. Especially if, like me, you really hate pulling the stick your arm out behind you and push the door hard enough as you go through it that it stays open long enough for them to get through too move.

That assholes can ruin basic communal interaction for everyone can’t be emphasized enough, IMO.

Comment #112: Brien Jackson  on  06/20  at  11:21 AM

Oh, what else is new, Gregory Butler is derailing this thread and declaring that every other issue takes precedence over women’s safety. So much for his “feminism.”

Comment #113: Nobody in Particular  on  06/20  at  01:15 PM

So I guess those people filling up the homeless shelters at night are just really devoted to their craft?
You are just Mr. one bad apple aren’t you. There are scam artists in every profession but assuming that every person begging on the street is supporting a secret life of comfort and easy with their takings is ludicrous. Look up how much a person gets for disability and imagine trying to live off of that for a month.
I’m happy to share my pocket change or extra food sometimes; I like to think of it as an investment in community. One of the girls from my college got stalked by a creep getting off the train one night. The two regular panhandlers at that spot saw what was happening and started shouting and chased the guy away.

Comment #114: scrumby  on  06/20  at  05:41 PM

@114: The door-holding thing really is another good example of how entitled/douchey/“chivalrous” guys can really ruin something for the rest of us people. I’m a smallish young woman so sometimes guys will do this very overt holding-open-the-door thing, which I hate both because it feels patronizing and also because I’m a shy person, so having some stranger going out of their way to “help” me and sort of focusing on me out of the blue if very uncomfortable.

So because of those guys door-holding is now totally political for me—I can’t assume that a guy I’m walking with is holding the door because it’s most convenient for him to get it rather than me, and I have to plan what to do if some guys holds a door for me (if it’s a double door I usually just thank him and then open the other half for myself :p) and I even get irritated sometimes when other women hold the door for me like my overly-polite female friend, who would always scoot ahead and get doors for the rest of us in our (all female) group.

So something that is just basic courtesy (not smacking people with doors, greeting others on the street, etc.) is made unpleasant and unsafe, which just lowers the whole public mood and the community friendliness.

Comment #115: Bagelsan  on  06/20  at  06:38 PM

I still remember the best comeback to a harasser I’ve ever seen.  I was walking down the sidewalk with a friend when a random jerk stuck his head out the window of his car and yelled “LESBIANS!”

I was about to scream something women had a right to have friends and walk down the street, and we were straight anyway, and who the hell did he think he was, when Mary stopped me cold.  Without missing a beat, she shouted “AND PROUD!” at the car, and continued on her way.

He was almost at an intersection, and was so startled he nearly ran a red light.  And we had a very nice time shopping.  smile

Comment #116: Ellid  on  06/20  at  08:01 PM

I live in DC and have experienced the street harassment thing for years.  It astounds my husband and guy friends that such a thing could happen, and so frequently.  I’ve learned to keep up a wall.  I was once walking home from Metro late at night and passed a man sprawled in the middle of a very busy road.  He called out to me, but I ignored him, assuming he was some drunken fool trying to get a rise out of me.  If he hadn’t told me he was hurt, I would have kept walking.  His words were slurred, but he said he was hurt.  I walked closer to see what happened, and he told me he’d been hit by a car.  His leg was broken, and he was bleeding.  I called the police, but I was shaken by the fact that I nearly entirely blew off someone seriously hurt.

I still ignore strangers as I walk down the street, but I try to keep alert to anything that looks out of place.  I don’t want the assholes to have so much control over me that I can’t be aware of others in need.

Comment #117: kayare  on  06/20  at  09:19 PM

Dear Chet did I ever say those men were crippled, schizophrenic, malnourished, or vets? I don’t think I said anything about why they were on the streets but then you think that all panhandlers are part of some elaborate conspiracy to defraud the public. I get it now! There must be a single school that specializes in hobo lessons for “the people so lazy they wont get a Job but will put just as much or more time, effort, and considerable discomfort into maintaining an elaborate deception of poverty in order to garner funds from strangers” It all makes sense! That’s why all panhandlers are crippled, schizophrenic, malnourished, veterans! not because you make bigoted, paranoid assumptions based on bland stereotypes. BECAUSE THEY ALL TRAINED AT THE SAME SCHOOL!

Comment #118: scrumby  on  06/20  at  10:29 PM

“So something that is just basic courtesy (not smacking people with doors, greeting others on the street, etc.) is made unpleasant and unsafe, which just lowers the whole public mood and the community friendliness. “

Exactly. And I think what really gets my goat on it (the door-opening issue) is that it seems like something that should be really straight-forward: if you’re not going out of your way to make sure the door doesn’t hit the person walking behind you, or if you’re going out of your way to help someone who looks like they probably need help with the door (say, someone with a big stroller or arms/hands full of stuff), you’re probably just being a polite, neighborly person (of course, this is also predicated on treating men and women the same way). If you think opening a door is a skill-set encoded on the Y chromosome, you’re a patronizing sexist prick.

And what compounds it is that the patronizing pricks sneer at those of us who think women are perfectly capable of performing basic everyday functions for themselves and lecture about how they were “raised right.” It’s just gob-smacking.

Comment #119: Brien Jackson  on  06/20  at  11:48 PM

Re the Antipodes and street harrassment- seriously it is JUST NOT A PROBLEM or at least not nearly to the same degree.

NZ: I remember there being a bit of it from builders in the late 80s/early 90s, and then it just stopped. I honestly can’t remember having to deal with it since then and I was in my teens, certianly not as a regular event. I don’t know what it can be attributed to - we have quite a few women in power, there’s a bit of a culture of Not Being a Public Nuisance, it’s just not a thing. I had more creepy experiences from taxi-drivers trying to pick me up than I did walking home from danceparties at 4am.

Aus: moved here a year and a half ago, again just not the level of harrassment that Americans seem to report experiencing. There are packs of drunk men and women calling out to each other- drunken mating ritual? But I will say, I never had to deal with beggars till I shifted here, buskers yes, beggars no. That was a hard one to get used to.

Comment #120: thirstygirl  on  06/21  at  12:13 AM

#87: Yeah, Bagelsan, the other thing is that it really doesn’t matter what reason a harasser tells himself that you ignored him. You’re ignoring the harasser to protect your self and your self respect. That’s the important thing here.

It’s not so much that I feel bad for the harassers I ignore, it’s that I ignore almost all the men out there. So perfectly decent people get treated sort of coldly, and it’s the effect on those decent people I worry about. I don’t want some perfectly innocent guy to think I’m giving him the cold shoulder because of his appearance or anything; having a woman scoot or deliberately look away from you when you’re a non-harassing able-bodied white guy has to be somewhat uncomfortable, but it’s got to be worse for a POC or even a guy in a wheelchair or something because you can’t as easily say “oh, I’m sure she does that to all the guys.”

But like I said, it’s impossible for women to try and compensate for that sort of thing, risking their safety to assure the peace of mind of the men around them. The most I can do is try to be very evenhanded in how I ignore people, and hope it’s obvious that I’m brushing off everyone and not just certain types of people. But it makes me feel bad to, however helplessly, contribute to -ist stuff like the divide between white women and men of color, when I would much rather be blatantly cheerfully cool with everybody.

Comment #121: Bagelsan  on  06/21  at  12:56 AM

Bagelsan, I used to feel bad about that too, until I either read or overheard too many rants from men about how they feel society treats them coldly, so *women* must be forced to make them feel better.  That’s when it got through to me that this is a problem the men will just have to sort out amongst themselves.  If they were nicer to each other, they’d not only not feel so isolated, but they’d all feel less like lashing out at anyone lower in their perceived hierarchy. 

There’s a lot of this in geekland—it’s easy for geek guys to go with, “men are mean, so I’ll turn to women for comfort”.  I’m not interested, dude.  They’re meaner to me.  When you worry about that first, I’ll listen.

Comment #122: Helen Huntingdon  on  06/21  at  12:46 PM

“Now, as for the folks who condemn so called “aggressive panhandlers” - I’m really stuck by the in-your-face classism of your comments! “

Fuck you.  The next time you’re grabbed by an aggressive panhandler (fuck your scare quotes) so hard that it leaves bruises, you can manlecture about classism.

The next time an aggressive panhandler tries to stick his hand up your skirt because you refused to give him money so he’ll “take some pussy instead”, you can manlecture about classism.

The next time an aggressive panhandler throws things at you because you ignored him and his subsequent following you down the street, while people just stand by fucking watching, you can manlecture about classism.

Always with the fucking male privilege first. You facilitate the problem.


Those people, plus street harrassers and the “everyone before bitchez” attitude of the Greg Butler’s of the world is exactly why I ignore every man in public.  And just men.  I’ve learned my lesson.  Female panhandlers get money if I have it.  I smile and chat with female strangers. 

As for headphones:  They don’t always work.  Either the perv will say increasingly threatening things because they think you can’t hear them, or they will literally invade you personal space until you can’t ignore them.  Like the one guy on the bus who felt that I needed to hear him say “bad weather, huh” so badly that he hit my arm to get my attention. Or the other guy who grabbed the book I was reading out of my hands so I would be forced to interact with him. 

IME, it’s an equal split between white men and black men.  The threatening, scary ones are always white and young.

Comment #123: Gypsy Lee  on  06/21  at  01:20 PM

Heh, on Friday, one man on the bus was so determined I listen to his grinning inanities despite my headphones and repeatedly ignoring him, he started beating violently on the far end of my seat.

Comment #124: Helen Huntingdon  on  06/21  at  02:22 PM

Or the other guy who grabbed the book I was reading out of my hands so I would be forced to interact with him.

Man, stuff like that just makes me rage out. In a perfect world anyone who took a book from someone else would get a hard punch in the throat, no question. Sure, guys assault women verbally and physically, but grabbing a book just crosses a line. ;p

And yeah, about the feeling-bad-for-teh-menz, I understand that to some extent guys are going to have to get their own shit together before they expect the time of day from women. I’m just peeved that I’m being put in a situation where I can’t automatically contribute to the society around me, ‘cause it’s not safe. I would like to be more progressive and outgoing than that! I would like to not have to think twice about saying “hi” to a guy on the street or stopping and opening my purse in public (that’s my main problem with giving money, I don’t like stopping and digging around in my wallet in the middle of the sidewalk—if I’m going to give money I have to know the person is going to be there ahead of time so I can have some cash handy and be able to do a sort of speedy-drive-by-giving.)

Comment #125: Bagelsan  on  06/21  at  02:25 PM

#128 - LOL.  Absolutely yes.  Beating on the seats, doing some interpretative “please look at me” dances, etc.  I wonder what could make a woman’s total lack of interest seem like a challenge to act like a bigger ass. Hmmm.


“stuff like that just makes me rage out. In a perfect world anyone who took a book from someone else would get a hard punch in the throat, no question. Sure, guys assault women verbally and physically, but grabbing a book just crosses a line. ;p “

LOL.  Books are my catnip!  That dude thought he was being cute, apparently, like he was in 2nd grade or something.  When I responded by opening my bag and taking out another book (just call my Rory Gilmore), he got exasperated and tossed the first one onto the seat.  Then, I was a “stuck up bitch” who needed a “good deep dicking”.  So, IOW, I should be raped for preferring to read and not talk to him.

Comment #126: Gypsy Lee  on  06/21  at  03:36 PM

Chet @116, the danger of posting links to make it seem as though you are actually citing “objective facts” is that sometimes people will look at those links.

Your link is a short opinion blurb that supposedly sources in a 2006 Columbus Dispatch article and says
According to Cleveland Municipal court records, the people who were ticketed or arrested for aggressive panhandling near ATMs, bus stops, or restaurants actually had addresses–their conclusion: “not homeless.”

So, aggressive panhandlers who received tickets from, or were arrested by, the police in certain parts of Cleveland, Ohio gave out an address. Clear proof that the majority of all panhandlers everywhere are frauds straight out of a Tim Powers novel who take the money they got off you and run home to blow it on Amazon.com!

Panhandlers need more help than pocket change. Frequently, they need more help than they can get, even in a city like mine where there are extensive services for the homeless. What this has to do with the myth that they’re all living high on the hog on our pocket change, I have no idea. Perhaps they’re just not properly grateful to their betters?

(By the way, people who threaten or intimidate others into handing over money are not panhanders; they’re muggers.)

Comment #127: mythago  on  06/21  at  04:33 PM

And I suppose I should add that it’s hilarious to listen to a conservative rail against voluntary charity.

Comment #128: mythago  on  06/21  at  04:35 PM

Chet, I’m wondering if the fake poor people you see also have a special perfume they wear, that smells like weeks-old funk?  Or if they sleep during the day, because at night I see them lying on the steam grates, I suppose to convince me they’re really poor.

I don’t give to aggressive panhandlers, but that doesn’t mean I won’t give anything to any others, or that I think the aggressive ones aren’t poor (note I didn’t claim they’re all homeless).  Just that some of them are assholes I wish to avoid.  Like any other group of people.

But damned if I ever try to compliment a pack of little boys again.
Comment #66: Bagelsan on 06/19 at 05:04 AM

I have been thinking about the incident you related with those young men, and I wonder if they were young enough still to be taken aback and perhaps have their frames challenged if you acted as if you hadn’t heard the yelling about your ass and instead complimented them on their riding.  Perhaps not all of them were commenting on you all at once—perhaps the shyer and nicer ones would have responded positively. 

But this isn’t second-guessing, I don’t blame you in any way for not engaging.  You have to consider your safety foremost.  Just wondering how that would have worked out. 

It’s a weird kind of ju-jitsu I came upon accidentally. 

When I was a teenager, a boy was maliciously teasing me with a weird question, but I literally didn’t “get it” and just started talking with him as if his question was meant seriously.  He either had to explain he was being mean or just act like the question was serious, and he was too surprised to insist on being a jerk.

Judybrowni, I don’t doubt that your strategy has worked well for you.  It might not work well for everyone.  It’s worth considering.  But the fact that we have to have a strategy that’s basically being uber-polite to more and more impolite assholes?  That’s wrong, and is not a solution.

Comment #129: oldfeminist  on  06/21  at  04:56 PM

Aus: moved here a year and a half ago, again just not the level of harrassment that Americans seem to report experiencing. There are packs of drunk men and women calling out to each other- drunken mating ritual? But I will say, I never had to deal with beggars till I shifted here, buskers yes, beggars no. That was a hard one to get used to.

There are a few beggars in Wellington now, but they’re low-key about it.  And then there’s Blanket Man, but that’s a whole other story in itself.

BTW, I sometimes ask about a book someone’s reading on the bus.  Is that acceptable or just plain creepy?

Comment #130: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/21  at  05:59 PM

BTW, I sometimes ask about a book someone’s reading on the bus.  Is that acceptable or just plain creepy?
Comment #134: Phoenician in a time of Romans on 06/21 at 04:59 PM

If you’re actually asking about the book, no, though enough guys use this as a pretext that you have to be prepared for being ignored or told to f off sometimes.

One of the worst things about harassment is the stealth kind.  A guy says two or three seemingly normal, intelligent things, and then says something disgusting.

Comment #131: oldfeminist  on  06/21  at  06:05 PM

Exactly. Or starts a ‘friendly’ conversation that is gradually morphing into hitting on you, and of course the guy is just being polite, what’s wrong with you? Do you just think everybody’s always making a pass at you? Oh, it really was a pass - okay then, why did you sit and waste the poor fellow’s time instead of just saying “sorry, not interested” up front?

Comment #132: mythago  on  06/21  at  06:09 PM

“I know because Lincoln is not so large that I haven’t run into men I’ve recognized from panhandling downtown, all cleaned up just like a regular citizen. If you didn’t recognize their face you’d never know they had been panhandling at all.”

Are you sure the guy didn’t just get back on his meds?

Comment #133: Selena777  on  06/21  at  07:31 PM

Beating on the seats, doing some interpretative “please look at me” dances, etc.  I wonder what could make a woman’s total lack of interest seem like a challenge to act like a bigger ass. Hmmm.

I’ve seen quite the collection of interpretive “look at me” dances by now.  Sitting-swaggers, chest puffing, shifting position that for some reason has to take up enough space for five people in the process, strange contortions to somehow insert his face into my line of vision, exaggerated gasps, and no end of other street theater.  I keep waiting for one to blow a gasket, they get so worked up.

BTW, I sometimes ask about a book someone’s reading on the bus.  Is that acceptable or just plain creepy?

If you’re a man interrupting a woman, it’s an asshole move.  If you’re interrupting anyone you have privilege over, it’s an asshole move.

Comment #134: Helen Huntingdon  on  06/21  at  09:34 PM

BTW, I sometimes ask about a book someone’s reading on the bus.  Is that acceptable or just plain creepy?

I say if you’re not a complete social reject about it, go ahead. If she (or he) doesn’t respond, let it go. If they give you a short answer but otherwise do nothing to encourage further conversion, don’t press the issue. Even if it’s not for fear of harassment sometimes a person doesn’t want to talk. Respect that and you’re fine.

Comment #135: scrumby  on  06/22  at  12:33 AM

Not being a complete social reject about it:

If the person has repeatedly paused in their reading to look up and around, and has made eye contact with you and smiled (not a small or hesitant or nervous smile, but a whole-face smile) at least twice, they probably wouldn’t mind a brief inquiry.  Otherwise, they’re busy, and you’re interrupting, which is rude.

Comment #136: Helen Huntingdon  on  06/22  at  09:16 AM

One joy about getting old is that these idiots don’t scream at me on the street anymore.  Which I’m grateful.

This type of behavior is all about intimidation and spite.  Unfortunately it will only end when there is a change into a culture that doesn’t victimize women.

Comment #137: Melponeme_k  on  06/22  at  09:17 AM

Melponeme_k, I wistfully await the day I get too old.  I was told 40, but I am 40 and it hasn’t even slowed down. 

However, I can tell you what a passel o’ nerds on the neanderthal end of the curve had to say on the topic.  The were extremely clear and emphatic that:

1.  All women love being screamed at by strange men. 

2.  Women get mad at men for not screaming at them randomly in public, so the poor beleaguered men have to work themselves up into screaming because they fear the ballbusting women.

3.  Young women who don’t get screamed at are jealous and bitter. 

4.  Mature women who used to get screamed at but don’t anymore, and who say they much prefer not getting screamed at, are lying.  It’s just sour grapes.  The old hags wish they were worth being screamed at.

Comment #138: Helen Huntingdon  on  06/22  at  11:57 AM

If the person has repeatedly paused in their reading to look up and around, and has made eye contact with you and smiled (not a small or hesitant or nervous smile, but a whole-face smile) at least twice, they probably wouldn’t mind a brief inquiry.  Otherwise, they’re busy, and you’re interrupting, which is rude.
Comment #140: Helen Huntingdon on 06/22 at 08:16 AM

It really depends on where you are.  I am trying but failing to imagine any woman doing the whole-face smile at anyone she doesn’t know on public transportation in my city.  At least, not at an adult.

The key is, if you really are asking about the book, then you won’t get all butthurt if the person doesn’t want to have a conversation, or keeps the conversation on the book, or mentions a significant other.

Comment #139: oldfeminist  on  06/22  at  04:47 PM

Hmm, I’m thinking about the “asking about a book” thing. I know that sometimes I want to ask about a book someone else is reading, and sometimes I want to be asked about the book I’m reading.

But I don’t always want to be asked about my book, and it’s impossible to tell from my demeanor either way, and I can’t think of a way for a guy to ask me about a book that I would always be okay with… so the safest answer is no, don’t interrupt women on public transport even for book discussions. (Also, I don’t expect people to read my mind; I’m not going to be bitter if no one initiates a conversation with me during the times I’m feeling approachable! If someone happens to ask about my book at a moment when I want to be asked about my book then hurray, but ultimately it’s up to me to make it clear if I want to have a book conversation.)

But if you do ask about a book, be very polite and don’t act in any way physically intimidating… don’t walk up to a sitting woman and loom, don’t stare at her, don’t approach her when it’s dark or the two of you are alone, don’t talk about her personally. And then I’d say after you ask about the book back off, and let her re-approach you if she wants to continue the conversation. That would be the most acceptable for me, at least, though Y(and other women’s)MMV—obviously I don’t speak for other women.

And I guess my general advice would be to be self-aware (easier said than done!) Do you come across like a creeper? Are you a big or physically intimidating guy? Are you not very good at reading subtle cues? Some of these traits may be deal-breakers, sadly, and in that case you should just resign yourself to an unfair but socially responsible life of not asking strange women about books.

Comment #140: Bagelsan  on  06/23  at  05:57 PM

Another clue is what the person is reading.  If it’s a novel, well maybe, just maybe, she isn’t busy and is just trying to pass the time.  Then again, this might be her only chance to get some reading in and you’re screwing it up.

But if it’s a textbook, or a notebook, or sheets of handwritten equations, or printouts of something, she’s busy and you’re interrupting.  “Oh, are you a mathematician?” may sound good to you, but to her it’s just one more jerk flapping his jaw for no reason while she’s thinking about something that matters (and guess what, you don’t).  What on earth could be the purpose of such a question?

Comment #141: Helen Huntingdon  on  06/24  at  09:18 AM
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