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Next entry: Kentucky: HS assistant principal allegedly bans gay students from restroom Previous entry: Your tax dollars at work: Keith Deltano, America’s new abstinence clown

Strikingly, god thinks exactly what any random choad claims he’s thinking

If you’ve been following this non-starter of a controversy over President Obama’s commencement speech at Notre Dame—-and I say non-starter, because the students, faculty, and staff all want it, with the exception of a small minority of right wing wankers pretending their objection is religious in nature—-you’ve been witnessing a first class example of how religion is used as a rationalization for whatever you wanted to believe in the first place.  Former Vatican ambassador Mary Ann Glendon is turning down some big award from Notre Dame to protest the fact that they’re honoring President Obama, as they have every other President since Eisenhower.  The ostensible reason that Obama is being protested is that he’s pro-choice, and that implies—-quite falsely—-that Notre Dame is changing some tradition of rejecting pro-choice Presidents, even though they’ve done it before.  It does make you think about what it could be that’s different about Obama that is causing this reaction, but of course speculation of this sort will just result in a bunch of pearl-clutching faux outrage of the sort we’ve seen from Donna Barstow or Byron York.

Anyway, the direct claim, however facetious, that Notre Dame has some sort of obligation to shun pro-choice Presidents starting the day that we elected a

black

Chicago-based

Democrat in the era when most Notre Dame students first came into the age of the majority doesn’t make sense even by the stated standards of the protesters.  As many people have pointed out, Notre Dame honored President Bush, and the Iraq War was singled out specifically by the Pope as a violation of god’s will.  Cathy Lynn Grossman pointed out this huge and obvious error in consistency that makes the protesters look, at best, like they’re motivated by nothing more than base misogyny (true enough), but also like they are, to use Pam’s awesome coinage, easily race-aroused.  Which is somewhat surprising, because fetus worshipers tend to be mindful of putting up a consistency front to obscure that loathing for female sexuality motivates them by acting like they just really, really, really love microscopic life.  But of course, if you make it clear that you love microscopic life more than the lives of human beings who have brains and skeletal systems, then people are going to be skeptical of your claims to be “pro-life”.  She’s just trying to help, nuts!

But of course, the first rule of wingnuttery is to boldly refuse to realize how much you look like an idiot.  With that in mind, “pro-life” conservatives wrote in and explained that women controlling their own bodies is a million times worse than blowing up countries and killing hundreds of thousands of people.  This, despite the fact that the Pope expressly condemned the Iraq War.

People who keep attempting to somehow equate Obama’s support of abortion with Bush’s decision to invade Iraq are missing one key point. Abortion is clearly defined by the Catholic Church as an “intrinsic evil” with no redeeming qualities and no room for negotiation. War and the death penalty do not fall under this category and heads of state are given some leway in these matters. War, good catholics can and do disagree on. Abortion has no such status, according to the Church.

Of course, even if you do think that fetuses are morally superior not just to women, but all sentient life, you have to admit that fetuses die during war.  So why is that okay?  Is it because the pregnant woman usually dies along with her fetus, making it okay?  That doesn’t make sense—-after all, anti-choicers get behind laws increasing penalties for people who kill pregnant women, so clearly they think killing a woman in the process of killing a fetus actually doesn’t make it okay. 

I’m forced to conclude that the rule is that It’s Okay If You’re A Patriarch.  Of course, being a Republican is now a bare minimum for being a patriarch.  But if you’re a Republican President, you’re the biggest patriarch of all, and you get to kill whoever you like, fetal or not.  I’m forced to conclude that it’s irrelevant if you think it’s “life” or not in the womb—-whether or not it’s right to terminate it depends entirely on your social status, and women aren’t accorded enough to even control their own bodies.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:22 AM • (55) Comments

I hate to be the one to say this, but it bugs me how dumb this makes Catholics look. Most of my extended family is Catholic or ex-Catholic or semi-Catholic. None of them is this dumb, not even my right-wing uncle. Or, have I been refusing to see the dark side all this time?

Comment #1: atheist  on  05/02  at  12:27 PM

I say non-starter, because the students, faculty, and staff all want it, with the exception of a small minority of right wing wankers pretending their objection is religious in nature

I guess this is the most salient point. Most of the faculty consider this dumb too.

Comment #2: atheist  on  05/02  at  12:29 PM

I’m forced to conclude that it’s irrelevant if you think it’s “life” or not in the womb—-whether or not it’s right to terminate it depends entirely on your social status, and women aren’t accorded enough to even control their own bodies.

Yes, that seems to be the point of it, doesn’t it?

For example, condoms save lives by preventing the transmission of AIDs (indisputable fact, despite the abstinence clown).  People are going to have sex, whether you like it or not (see Bristol Palin).  It’s none of your business if someone “sins” (see mote/plank).

Therefore, if you approve of LIFE, and consider (novel as it may be) adult humans as LIFE to be respected, it follows that you, as an organization, should not oppose (and perhaps even condone, though that may be a stretch for you) the use of condoms. 

But, of course, adults really aren’t “life,” at least according to the guy in the dress and funny hat…  And his minions…  And most of his competitors…

Comment #3: MosesZD  on  05/02  at  12:41 PM

Short answer:  It’s not that they’re this dumb, it’s that the hierarchy is very, very different from the laity.  It’s almost as though there’s some weird woman-hating ritual they have to go through . . . oh, wait!  Holy Orders, which is restricted to men only and requires that they not even have spouses. 

Who could have seen a bizarre schism between a bunch of single guys in charge with no families and therefore only their careers to give their lives meaning and the ordinary men and women who get married and have kids and have to live in the real world?

Comment #4: Punditus Maximus  on  05/02  at  12:46 PM

Well, we spend a whole lot of time talking about empowerment—a term which has been trivialized in much the same way ‘choice’ has, with both basically linked to retail therapy & other consumerist means of self-soothing—and very little talking about actual power.  These issues are much less about the gravity of the sins themselves (or the purity of the alleged victims, although that provides a convenient distraction) than about the relative power of the accused sinners.

Comment #5: latts  on  05/02  at  01:23 PM

After the sheer illogicality of Christian theology, one of the doctrines that made me leave the Church was the equal sinfulness of using condoms and having abortions.  (In the Protestant world, allowing abortions in the case of rape and incest also boggles.)  If each blastocyst is a precious little snowflake whose existence is sacrosanct, surely we should prevent their unwanted creation, but preserve them at all costs?  Nope.

Then again, I’m a fan of Hanlon’s Razor: never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity.  The vast majority of “patriarchists”, I suspect, don’t consciously think about oppressing women.  They simply act the way they were taught to act, and therefore use any rationalization at hand to justify the rules wired into their brains by generations of similarly-wired parents.  Anything that prevents babies popping out to outbreed the Saracens is icky and therefore abhorrent to God.  So says the Vatican Spider.

Comment #6: fmitchell  on  05/02  at  01:32 PM

But Punditus, while a lot of the whining is being spearheaded by bishops, most of the protesters are your basic, run-of-the-mill college Republican types, who aren’t getting laid and don’t like that anyone else is, either.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  02:14 PM

fmitchell, I agree that it’s subconscious.  But it’s still prejudice.  You rarely find anti-abortion or anti-contraception sentiment in a person who doesn’t have all the attendant beliefs about how women who have sex are bad.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/02  at  02:16 PM

It’s the principle of Double Effect.  A fetus killed in war was killed accidentally because of some other aim—-the morality of this death is connected to the morality of the war (which can be morally acceptable).

Comment #9: Mandos  on  05/02  at  02:54 PM

Amanda—I don’t disagree at all that there is more than one thing going on; I was just addressing the notion that Catholics, of which I used to be an example, are systematically dumb.  They’re not.  The hierarchy and the laity are in tremendously different places.

College Republicans are College Republicans.

Comment #10: Punditus Maximus  on  05/02  at  03:04 PM

It doesn’t matter whether they consciously think they’re promoting social and political policy expressly to oppress any disadvantaged group of people.  Since that is the outcome of such policy, intent matters little.

Comment #11: kaninchen  on  05/02  at  03:22 PM

It doesn’t matter whether they consciously think they’re promoting social and political policy expressly to oppress any disadvantaged group of people.  Since that is the outcome of such policy, intent matters little.

Especially since virtually all of them regard the outcome as a feature and not a bug.

Comment #12: Captain Bathrobe  on  05/02  at  04:11 PM

Atheist - My theory is that, because of the abstinence requirement,  the priesthood absorbs a huge percentage of that sector of the general Catholic population who are (a) male and (b) batshit crazy w/r/t sex. As a result, the Catholic rank-and-file (considered as a whole) is perfectly reasonable on this subject, while the people who claim to speak for them are utter loons.

Comment #13: Molly, NYC  on  05/02  at  04:19 PM

It’s the principle of Double Effect.  A fetus killed in war was killed accidentally because of some other aim—-the morality of this death is connected to the morality of the war (which can be morally acceptable).

Which is nothing but sophistry, and weak sophistry at that, based on the abuse of the concept of “accident”. That, and it doesn’t really help their cause given, say, the abortion of an ectopic pregnancy in which the aim is preserving a woman’s life, everything else being but a side affect of that goal. You can’t have it both ways. Either you can terminate a pregnancy as a side effect of saving lives, or you can’t.

Comment #14: Sophist FCD  on  05/02  at  04:44 PM

Normally I’m pretty sympathetic to the hierarchy, but that’s actually a really good point Sophist. Almost as good as Fred Clark’s reductio of anti-‘hate crime law’ sentiment (does that come off as sarcasm? Not meant that way)

Comment #15: Vojtas  on  05/02  at  05:00 PM

(does that come off as sarcasm? Not meant that way)

Hey, you just compared me to Frad Clark. I don’t think it’s possible to take something like that negatively.

Comment #16: Sophist FCD  on  05/02  at  05:27 PM

It’s not just a matter of crazy priests oppressing a rational but helpless laity; that’s so tenth century.

Perhaps American Catholics my age and younger simply take the Vatican’s pronouncements with a grain of salt, but I know a few members of the Old Guard—mainly women—who’ve internalized the whole “abortion is murder” meme.  My mom watches EWTN, and to her and her friends anything that a nun or a priest does is simply wonderful.

Heck, I dated an agnostic, otherwise liberal, “pro-lifer”, a freshman in the college I had graduated from a few years before.  One could easily psychoanalyze her own anti-abortion stance (hint: she was born with a birth defect), but if I had she wouldn’t have been any less committed.

Dealing with an evil “patriarchy” would be relatively simple.  Alas, the task before us is to reason with fundamentally irrational beliefs spread and propagated through the general populace.

Comment #17: fmitchell  on  05/02  at  05:37 PM

I’m not particularly a fan of Mary Ann Glendon’s thinking, but her refusal of the award is based at least in part on the fact that Notre Dame used her as a kind of ‘cover’, or shield against any criticism of their invitation to Obama:

“President Obama won’t be doing all the talking. Mary Ann Glendon, the former U.S. ambassador to the Vatican, will be speaking as the recipient of the Laetare Medal.”

“We think having the president come to Notre Dame, see our graduates, meet our leaders, and hear a talk from Mary Ann Glendon is a good thing for the president and for the causes we care about.”

That’s just shabby, and cowardly, to boot. Notre Dame should respect the integrity of all of its honorees, and defend their bestowal of those honors on their own merits. To have played one honoree against the other, well, like I said: shabby.

Comment #18: absurdbeats  on  05/02  at  06:16 PM

Of course, even if you do think that fetuses are morally superior not just to women, but all sentient life, you have to admit that fetuses die during war.  So why is that okay?

Philip Roth did a whole routine about this, IIRC. The question was put to Richard Nixon—-something like, But isn’t there a tiny chance that one of the Vietcong we’re bombing and shooting may be pregnant?

Comment #19: Bitter Scribe  on  05/02  at  07:38 PM

My theory is that, because of the abstinence requirement, the priesthood absorbs a huge percentage of that sector of the general Catholic population who are (a) male and (b) batshit crazy w/r/t sex.

My corollary to your theory is that many of them are also (c) gay and (d) psycho-sexually stuck at the age where they first felt those eeeeeeevil desires (i.e., adolescence), which is why they go on to molest young boys.

Comment #20: Bitter Scribe  on  05/02  at  07:41 PM

Today I went to my bank to get some cash from the outdoor atm, and directly across the parking lot, for the first time ever, stood a group of anti-choice protestors holding signs stating “abortion kills babies”.  There is a medical center in there, always has been, and since this was a first, I can only assume that an office within began offering abortion services.

When I saw that sign, “abortion kills children” I flipped out.  I always carried a sign reading “war kills children” during all of the anti-war demonstrations i have been in, and even put up banners on the expressway overpasses that said the same thing.  And I knew that everyone one of those son-of-a-bitches standing there with their stupid martyr looks on, had voted for George W Bush, real-live-breathing baby murderer.  I started screaming, just screaming, “You know what kills children?  WAR kills children!”  over and over, war kills children.  And not one of them would look at me, but every person walking into or out of the bank looked.  I know I looked crazy, but I wasn’t even aware.  And knowing these fuckers, they will be out every week.  But they won’t get the ride they think they’re going to get, because I am going to be there waiting for them next Saturday with my big, pink banner, ‘WAR KILLS CHILDREN”.

Comment #21: Lady Vader  on  05/02  at  08:57 PM

Aside from the main point, one bonus bit of stupidity:

War and the death penalty do not fall under this category and heads of state are given some leway in these matters.

That might have some relevance if we were talking about “Obama is pro-choice” vs. “Bush is pro-war.” But we’re not talking about those “matters” of “some leeway,” we’re talking about a specific war which he personally initiated, which the pope specifically condemned. Where’s the fucking “leeway” in that?

Comment #22: Redshift  on  05/02  at  09:42 PM

Redshift has it. Once the pope has specifically condemned the action, there isn’t a lot of room to say that you’re honoring the guy anyway.

Comment #23: paul  on  05/02  at  11:27 PM

That, and it doesn’t really help their cause given, say, the abortion of an ectopic pregnancy in which the aim is preserving a woman’s life, everything else being but a side affect of that goal. You can’t have it both ways. Either you can terminate a pregnancy as a side effect of saving lives, or you can’t.

Oh, they have a solution to this problem.

Comment #24: Mandos  on  05/03  at  12:24 AM

The hierarchy and the laity are in tremendously different places.

Mentally, yes. Physically, not. And that’s the curious thing: the American hierarchy, which is frankly closer to the Irish and Vatican hierarchy than most of European Catholicism, still pretends that the people who fill the pews on a semi-regular basis follow Humanae Vitae, and the people who show up mostly pretend that the Church’s wingnut element is talking among itself.

Father Ted was funny for a reason. And it’s the same reason that The Magdalene Sisters is not funny at all.

Comment #25: pseudonymous in nc  on  05/03  at  01:45 AM

whether or not it’s right to terminate it depends entirely on your social status, and women aren’t accorded enough to even control their own bodies.

Exactly. Women aren’t special or important enough to get to kill anyone, let alone precious, sacred fetuses. If anyone’s going to die, especially a fetus, it’s going to be done under a patriarch’s orders, because only they’re awesome enough to decide the fate of that highest form of life.

Comment #26: junk science  on  05/03  at  10:44 AM

I fail to understand why it is a moral conundrum for these nincompoops when it comes to ectopic pregnancy in the first place.

But then, I take a woman’s personhood for granted.

Comment #27: speedbudget  on  05/03  at  10:46 AM

“I fail to understand why it is a moral conundrum for these nincompoops when it comes to ectopic pregnancy in the first place.
But then, I take a woman’s personhood for granted.”

...and you’ve probably never been obsessed with counting the exact number of fetii that can dance on the head of a pinhead…er, pin…

Comment #28: MikeEss  on  05/03  at  10:54 AM

Mandos:

the fucking FUCK?!?!?
that is not directed at you, but at this “Brother Paul”
the only way to deal with an ectopic pregnancy is to remove the fallopian tube?!?!? when there are easier and FAR less traumatic and less stressful ways that are much less likely to leave permanent damage, and much less likely to impact later fertility?!?!?

jesus fucking christ.

i continue to be grateful that i was raised pagan. and that i didn’t encounter christianity until i was ten so that they never had the chance to brainwash me.

what kind of bullshit is that? remove the fucking fallopian tube.
seriously, where does that come from? i don’t understand. i thought that Catholics were against things that made them less fertile? i am just… i am really kind of shocked.

it doesn’t make any sense that the only way to deal with an ectopic pregnancy is to remove the fallopian tube.
i mean, i get the idea that forcing a woman to have the child after pregnancy is punishiment for getting pregnant, for having sex, when you (generic you) are in the position that having a child is bad. but when it is a desired child that is very wanted and is not a punishment, what the hell is the point of punishing the family (especially the mother, the mother the most, but the rest of her familty is also punished, by the decreased chance of more children) by forcing them to give up half of their fertility?

erm. i am not mad at you, Mandos, and i am actually really asking for the rational, here. i don’t get it, and so this means that i can’t argue about it.
but it does explain a conversation we had in class last week. its a woman’s studies class - i had never taken one, and while i have been a feminist for 17 or 18 years, i often think i am missing some things - and we were talking about the little girl in South America (the 9 year old who had been raped by her step-father, whose mother and doctor were excommunicated because they gave her an abortion because she was pregnant with twins and there was no way that she would not be killed and it was *very* probable that she would die before the fetuses were viable…). i had never heard of “Double Effect”, and one of the Christian women in the class brought it up as a reason that it was ok to excommunicate the mother and doctor, because they didn’t do the abortion “correctly” somehow. i was totally stumped, i had no clue what this meant, and so had no way to argue it. i said that the girl was going to die, the fetuses would probably die, and she said, again, that Double Effect something. i quit paying attention because i was trying to figure out what double effect was, and the teacher stepped in and reminded the other student this was not a theology class. i didn’t even realize until i read your link that Double Effect was a theological thing - i thought that Prof. Bart was trying to stop the discussion on whether or not it was ok to excommunicate, not the Double Effect thing.
is there someplace i can go to read more about it? what *is* it? the only thing i really got was that if a woman was killed in the course of a war and the fetus also died, that that wasn’t an abortion if the war itself was “moral” (question - is any war *EVER* “MORAL”?) i do not think that this is actually what is meant, thought/
i’m pretty sure that i never met an actual Catholic person until i was at least 20, and i only know a few and they really won’t talk to me about theology. and the theology class i had that was taught by a priest, the professor was so distressed by my sister and i (you know, two pagans) and the Scientologist and the Muslim in the class that he spent all his time trying to explain the Trinity (which i still don’t totally get. i put it in D&D;terms for myself - there is the God, there is the God’s power (holy ghost) and there is the God’s avatar (Jesus) but this is apparantly incorrect. but its the closest i got). so i don’t understand most of this. i’ve read the Bible, and never seen this. i mean, the Bible is pro-abortion and pro-infantcide! (King James Version, Psalms 137.8-9)
actually, any catholics or ex-catholics who can explain, or point me in the right direction to read it myself, please. it would really help me a lot smile

fucking removing the goddamned fallopian tube. how fucked up can they get?

Comment #29: denelian  on  05/03  at  11:46 PM

As someone with a granduncle who is a retired priest, and having done some time in the clutches of the RCC, this is for you denelian:

Trinity

Trinity refers to the teaching that the one God comprises three distinct aspects or ‘persons’; these being referred to as ‘the Father’ (the heavenly existence of God), ‘the Son’ (Jesus Christ - God’s earthly incarnation as related in the Bible, and now held to coexist with the Father), and ‘the Holy Spirit’ (sometimes referred to as ‘the Holy Ghost’). Together, these three persons are sometimes called the Godhead[66][67][68] although there is no single term in use in Scripture to denote the unified Godhead.[69] In the words of the Athanasian Creed, an early statement of Christian belief, “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.”.[70]

According to this doctrine, God is not divided in the sense that each person has a third of the whole; rather, each person is considered to be fully God (see Perichoresis). The distinction lies in their relations, the Father being unbegotten; the Son being eternal yet begotten of the Father; and <u>the Holy Spirit ‘proceeding’ from Father and (in Western theology) from the Son</u>.[71] Regardless of this apparent difference in their origins, the three ‘persons’ are each eternal and omnipotent. This is thought by Trinitarian Christians to be the revelation regarding God’s nature which Jesus Christ came to deliver to the world, and is the foundation of their belief system.

The word trias, from which trinity is derived, is first seen in the works of Theophilus of Antioch. He wrote of “the Trinity of God (the Father), His Word (the Son) and His Wisdom (Holy Spirit)”.[72] The term may have been in use before this time. Afterwards it appears in Tertullian.[73][74] In the following century the word was in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen.[75]

For unbegotten, you can substitute the words “born” or “created”, God the Father extends from the beginning of time for the rest of eternity, Jesus is with Him at the beginning of thime, and the Holy Ghost(as they used to call him) proceeds from Jesus.

Hope this helps you.

Comment #30: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/04  at  12:45 AM

So there is a link I typically put up that is from very fringy schismatic traditionalist Catholics but I find very useful because they explain the rationalization of these strictures without any attempt to appeal to modern terminology or human rights sensibilities as the mainstream Church presently does.  In fact, they view the Church’s attempt to co-opt modernist sensibilities, even if in service to traditionalist goals, as a needless and corrupting concession to “The Revolution”, by which they mean the standing social dynamic that attempts to tear down what they perceive to be the Divine Order and encompasses everything from Arius to Luther to the French Revolution to the liberal American left. 

Tradition in Action

Yes, it is nutty, but it is very plainly and honestly nutty and does explain the thinking ultimately behind the whole Fallopian-amputation business.

More specifically, I find this review of The Matrix trilogy to be particularly enlightening.  You may find this review of Pan’s Labyrinth to be entertaining as well.

Comment #31: Mandos  on  05/04  at  01:30 AM

Dark Avenger:
i know what “begotten” means, lol. i don’t know if the helps - it changes the order of precedence, i guess… but if i were to translate that, it would still be very D&D;. or maybe very Hindu - there is the God, the Avatar of God, and then the effect/power of God…
so, yeah. i just may not ever get it. but thank you for trying!

Mandos:
interesting site. i did a search for Double Effect, and ok… at least i know what it means now. intent, not consequence.
the film reviews?
i have to wonder if the guy who wrote them even *watched* the films - i mean, he has the actual facts correct, but has totally missed the point of The Matrix. and his insistance that “Pagan” = “Satanic” is really infuriating. (i did not like Pan’s Labyrinth at all; i am not defending the movie, and i can even sort of see where the archetypes the reviewer refers to are. but the satanism? supid)
i will putter around on the site more later smile thank you

Comment #32: denelian  on  05/04  at  02:05 AM

Oh, he surely watched the films.  And for this man—-who is in fact complicit in South American fascist movements in that he is a follower of one Prof. Corrêa de Oliveira who apparently founded these “Society for the Preservation of Tradition, Family, and Property” organizations—-all non-Catholic religions including Eastern Orthodoxy and any kind of Protestantism are inherently Satanic.

Comment #33: Mandos  on  05/04  at  02:23 AM

What’s enlightening about his review of the Matrix is the philosophical system (based in medieval Scholasticism) that he defends as the only acceptable starting point for reason.  Fetal personhood actually falls out of this particular system which offers a technique to determine when an entity becomes a moral subject.

Comment #34: Mandos  on  05/04  at  02:25 AM

oh. well, then i guess that explains it…

its not a viewpoint i understand… esp. the view the Eastern Orthodox is satanic - i thought that the split happened over adding the “The Son” to the litany, but that otherwise E.Orthodix was essentially how the Church was before the split…?

also, Christians who are Fascists confuse me. because it seems that the two could not co-exist.

Comment #35: denelian  on  05/04  at  02:27 AM

Mandos:

Oh, he surely watched the films.

From skimming his review of The Matrix, it seems to me that even if he saw the films, he didn’t have a clue what was actually going on. He takes as axiomatic that the “real world” and the “matrix world” are of equal physical reality, when the whole conceit of the movie is that one is real and one is a computer simulation. He argues, for instance, from the claim that the people who enter the matrix are literally co-locating (i.e., actual physical duplication), rather than mentally experiencing an elaborate virtual world while their physical forms are sitting in peripheral chairs aboard the Nebuchadnezzar. The movie explains this point quite clearly several times over the course of the trilogy, but Guimarães ignores it completely in favor of a patently nonsensical argument.

He makes the same mistake when attempting to discuss Agent Smith’s ability to propagate himself throughout the matrix through “cloning.” He assumes that the matrix is real and must follow the rules of the real world. Again, the films repeatedly state that this is not the case. What’s more, if interpreted correctly as a sophisticated computer program, Agent Smith’s actions aren’t even unusual by our own standards. He doesn’t do anything that a decent virus or trojan horse program can’t do.

His review of Pan’s Labyrinth is just silly, to be blunt. To be blunt, Guimarães is reading way too much into these movies. Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar.

Comment #36: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  05/04  at  03:03 AM

I really didn’t mean to use the phrase “to be blunt” twice consecutively. Bad proofreading on my part.

/fail

Comment #37: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  05/04  at  03:04 AM

I wouldn’t mind removing Brother Paul’s fallopian tube.

You heard me.

Comment #38: Auguste  on  05/04  at  03:34 AM

Dan: Well, the Matrix trilogy IMO gets ambiguous on the point on which world is real and which is fake.  However, Guimarães is seeing this from the POV of a particular agenda.  He views the people who live inside the Matrix as living a life of virtue achieved through respect for hierarchy, and by dint of this the Matrix world is as real or more real than the exterior, hellish world of Zion, the world of Revolution—-and if not, it should be treated as such. 

As he says,

On the contrary, the normal people who live in the world – we are shown an undefined big city with airs of New York – are presented as bad. These people are depicted wearing decent clothing, suits, shirts and ties, going to work, carrying out their lives in an orderly fashion, such as we see around us today. This city and its people are presented as bad because they respect hierarchy and follow the rules of society. It is a world that still distinguishes between order and disorder, truth and error, good and evil, beauty and ugliness. Such order, hierarchy, and distinctions are all rejected by the rebels of Zion, who condemn and deny such criteria as bad.

The implicit criticism of the present day society is clear: normal people like you and me in our everyday lives of work, family and religion would have been manipulated by some powerful mind to think what we are thinking.

In conclusion, the general impression produced by The Matrix series is this: what is normally considered decent, clean, and good is presented as something bad and artificial. On the other hand, what is revolted, dirty, ugly, disordered, anarchist, without morals and even with Satanist hues is presented as the good.

Seen this way, the act of plugging in (from Hell) and placing your consciousness in the at will creates a philosophical crisis of individuation—-the Matrix is the virtuous (therefore Real) world—-and the ability to go inside and outside of it is a dangerous denial of one’s ultimate role as a moral subject, and the status of all individual as moral subjects.

As for Pan’s Labyrinth, it’s a much closer axe to grind, actually.  Guimarães views Latin imperialism as the ultimate in virtue-spreading, so for him the Spanish anarchists are striking out at the very ability of Catholicism to propagate itself by force (as it is its right to do).  The symbolism of the movie for one such as him is therefore legitimately potent.

Comment #39: Mandos  on  05/04  at  03:38 AM

denelian: The reason why he (and that entire sight) views Eastern Orthodoxy to be an emanation of Satan—-indeed, a prefiguring of Protestantism—-is that they deny the Pope’s authority via the Petrine Primacy and at minimum downplay the Immaculate Conception.  For him, the Catholic Church is merely the set of visible components of a vast architecture of salvation working harmoniously through the Pope as intermediary between the visible and invisible components. 

The existence of other Christian sects is therefore like deliberate attempts at sabotage of this machine.  The machine requires a stable order, the stable order provided by a hierarchy—-a total order on the human race and nature. Schisms disrupt the total order.

Comment #40: Mandos  on  05/04  at  03:43 AM

The irony being that he is effectively in schism with the Pope (via denial of Vatican II, see Mel Gibson), but he has a neat bit of sophistry to paper it over.

Comment #41: Mandos  on  05/04  at  03:44 AM

denelian, let’s cut to the chase then, and define the problem more succinctly:

Together, these three persons are sometimes called the Godhead[66][67][68] <u>although there is no single term in use in Scripture to denote the unified Godhead</u>.

So, you see the problem already, I can’t point at any passage in Scripture or even in any Apocrypha to demonstrate the idea behind the Trinity, it came along much later, after Jesus and his followers had passed away as H.L. Mencken noted in his now dated but still excellent book on the subject, Treatise on the Gods.

In fact, you might think of it as the first case in Western literature of retconning :

The diverse references to God, Jesus, and the Spirit found in the New Testament were later systematized into the idea of a Trinity – one God subsisting in three persons and one substance – in order to combat heretical tendencies of how the three are related and to defend the church against charges of worshipping two or three gods.[25] The doctrine itself was not explicitly stated in the New Testament and no New Testament writer expounds on the relationship among the three in the detail of that later writers do.<u> Thus, while Matthew records a special connection between God the Father and Jesus the Son (e.g. 11:27), he falls short of claiming that Jesus is equal with God.</u> (cf. 24:36).[25]

The most influential New Testament text was the reference to the three Persons in the baptismal formula in 28:19); other passages also were seen as having Trinitarian overtones, such as the Pauline benediction of 2 Corinthians 13:14.[5]

The Gospel of John starts with the affirmation that in the beginning Jesus as Word “was with God and ...was God” (John 1:1) and ends with Thomas’s confession of faith to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28).[25] There is no significant tendency among modern scholars to deny that these two verses identify Jesus with God.[28] The same Gospel suggests the equality and unity of Father and Son.[29] But it also suggests a hierarchy (“The Father is greater than I”),[30], a statement appealed to by Marcionism, Valentinianism, Arianism and others who denied the Trinity.

 

Here’s how it’s describe in this Catholic version of the Nicene creed, others can be found ,here:

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.

For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate
of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

And one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

As for the differences, here’s one that Mandos didn’t mention(and I didn’t know about until now!) example.:

Orthodox Christians believe that when a person dies the soul is temporarily separated from the body. Though it may linger for a short period on Earth, it is ultimately escorted either to paradise (Abraham’s bosom) or the darkness of Hades, following the Temporary Judgment; Orthodox do not accept the doctrine of Purgatory which is held by Roman Catholicism. The soul’s experience of either of these states is only a “foretaste” -being experienced only by the soul - until the Final Judgment, when the soul and body will be reunited.[32] The Orthodox believe that the state of the soul in Hades can be affected by the love and prayers of the righteous up until the Last Judgment.[33] For this reason the Church offers special prayer for the dead
on the third day, ninth day, fortieth day, and the one-year anniversary after the death of an Orthodox Christian.

Whereas, in Catholicism, prayer is only held to be effective if the soul prayed for is in Purgatory.

Comment #42: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/04  at  04:37 AM

Mandos:

Well, the Matrix trilogy IMO gets ambiguous on the point on which world is real and which is fake.

I didn’t get that at all. Granted, it’s been a while since I’ve seen it, but I recall it being fairly clear on the matter. It’s sort of the central plot-point of the trilogy.

However, Guimarães is seeing this from the POV of a particular agenda. He views the people who live inside the Matrix as living a life of virtue achieved through respect for hierarchy, and by dint of this the Matrix world is as real or more real than the exterior, hellish world of Zion, the world of Revolution—-and if not, it should be treated as such.

...

Seen this way, the act of plugging in (from Hell) and placing your consciousness in the at will creates a philosophical crisis of individuation—-the Matrix is the virtuous (therefore Real) world—-and the ability to go inside and outside of it is a dangerous denial of one’s ultimate role as a moral subject, and the status of all individual as moral subjects.

I’m well aware that he’s seeing this from the POV of a particular agenda. Look, I can understand just fine why a right-wing authoritarian, especially a Catholic one, wouldn’t like the Matrix trilogy. It’s a fairly pointed criticism of exactly the kind of world that people like Guimarães are advocating, and it directly co-opts the symbolism and iconography of Jesus Christ to do it. What I’m saying is that his interpretation of the trilogy doesn’t make sense within the context of the trilogy itself, regardless of his POV or agenda. Half the stuff he says is just plain wrong, and the other half is interpreted in a way that necessarily relies on the false claims and faulty interpretations of the first half.

Even in the paragraphs you quoted, his very first sentence isn’t even true. If anything, great pains are taken throughout the trilogy to present the “normal people” in the matrix as morally neutral, as objects rather than subjects. The very literal stuff about co-location and Agent Smith “cloning” himself also don’t make sense within the context of the films.

Comment #43: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  05/04  at  06:54 AM

War, good catholics can and do disagree on. Abortion has no such status, according to the Church.

This is offensive.  My mother was raised Catholic and she has always been pro-choice and liberal in general.  I guess she was never a “good” Catholic.  Maybe the church would get more members if they stopped acting like a middle-school secret club.

Comment #44: bananacat  on  05/04  at  10:28 AM

I didn’t get that at all. Granted, it’s been a while since I’ve seen it, but I recall it being fairly clear in the matter. It’s sort of the central plot-point of the trilogy.

I would have said that after seeing only the first one, but (it’s been a while myself, so I could be misremembering) Neo ends up having the power to affect Sentinels in the “real” world.  This always suggested to me that the real/illusory line was deliberately being blurred by the brothers Wachowski.

His views on the people of the city are put into context in this line:

The implicit criticism of the present day society is clear: normal people like you and me in our everyday lives of work, family and religion would have been manipulated by some powerful mind to think what we are thinking.

To be duped by the alleged Satan/Gnostic White God is to be “bad”, even if you don’t consciously know it. To accept the existence of a neutral moral object is to suffer from the heresy of “relativism”.  These are people who write articles (as in the rest of the site) about the goodness/evilness of architectural styles and fashion choices and food choices.  To criticize society’s acceptance of convention is to criticize society as evil.

Comment #45: Mandos  on  05/04  at  10:43 AM

On the Trinity: this is actually a new twist on an old idea. Judaism has always recognized different aspects of god, which might appear to be separate, but are actually part of one divine entity. Certain forms of paganism viewed god in the same way, and this is especially apparent in mystical texts.

Comment #46: Liz212  on  05/04  at  03:07 PM

And in ancient religions, now dead:

Amun, reconstructed Egyptian Yamānu (also spelled Amon, Amoun, Amen, and rarely Imen, Greek Ἄμμων Ammon, and Ἅμμων Hammon), was the name of a deity in Egyptian mythology who in the form of Amun-Ra became the focus of the most complex system of theology in Ancient Egypt. Whilst remaining hypostatic deities, Amun represented the essential and hidden, whilst in Ra he represented revealed divinity. As the creator deity “par excellence”, he was the champion of the poor and central to personal piety. Amun was self created, without mother and father, and during the New Kingdom he became the greatest expression of transcendental deity in Egyptian theology. He was not considered to be immanent within creation nor was creation seen as an extension of himself. Amun-Re, likewise with the Hebrew creator deity, did not physically engender the universe. His position as King of Gods developed to the point of virtual monotheism where other Gods became manifestations of him. With Osiris Amun-Ra is the most widely recorded of the Egyptian Gods.

Comment #47: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/04  at  03:55 PM

Mandos:

Neo ends up having the power to affect Sentinels in the “real” world. This always suggested to me that the real/illusory line was deliberately being blurred by the brothers Wachowski.

If the matrix is just an elaborate computer simulation, it makes perfect sense that something capable of manipulating the matrix itself would also be capable of manipulating the machines that are, doubtless, plugged into the same computer network as the matrix. It just takes some knowledge of how the system is put together — which, it’s safe to assume, Neo has — not a fundamental break in the fabric of reality. And really, the principle behind that particular instance isn’t much different from a World of Warcraft addon that gives you an in-line web browser, or lets you control your iTunes without tabbing out of WoW.

To be duped by the alleged Satan/Gnostic White God is to be “bad”, even if you don’t consciously know it. To accept the existence of a neutral moral object is to suffer from the heresy of “relativism”. These are people who write articles (as in the rest of the site) about the goodness/evilness of architectural styles and fashion choices and food choices. To criticize society’s acceptance of convention is to criticize society as evil.

A philosophically untenable position, if there ever was one.

Comment #48: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  05/04  at  09:06 PM

sorry it took so long to reply, med issues

Mandos: ok… i think i followed that (the problem is that i am on the outside looking in. to me, the insanity is that all these people are always at war not over God, but the specific way in which to worship God. they are all worshipping the SAME God.) the only quibble i have is that, if i am remembering the history correctly, essentially the Catholic split off from the Orthodox Church over the Nicene Creed (wait - that is the one where they say “In the Name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, right? the split was because the Catholics added “The Son”? am i remembering right?)
but, given that there is that insanity i reference above (and i do not mean that in an insulting way - its like a social instability, and every religion ends up fighting every other religion in comes in contact with, so its not *just* a Christian thing) i can see how a specific sect of Catholics can see anyone who is *not* Catholic as being, at best, misguided and at worst, a ploy by “Satan”.

but everything Dan is saying, about he was being crazy wrt the Matrix? thats what i wanted to say (expecially the co-location bit! way to miss the point!). but my pain meds make it hard, sometimes, for me to express things in a coherent manner, and i was failing to write in a way that i thought was understandable. but i do see what you are saying, as in the author of the review was coming from a set agenda and sees everything through that lens. i guess everyone sees that way, to some extent, its just that that particular view was especially weird. which is why i wondered if he had actually *seen* the movies - because the conceit of the “virtual simulation” was like the first 45 minutes of plot.

Dark Avenger:
oh…, you also brought up the Nicean Creed, what i wrote above. sorry…
but, like i said above, that explains the split again to me, even if i don’t think i can ever look at it and not see crazy/
this may be because i was raised Pagan, and the *one* rule we really have is that everyone worships how they think is best for that individual. i have trouble grasping the legistlation (and violent enforcement) of specific forms of worship (well, not negative legislation - not sacrificing, for instance)

i think… i used to reguard the Trinity as very similiar to the concept of the Triple Goddess. one goddess, three faces that do three different things. then i was told this was wrong… so i started looking for another way to understand it. but, they way you lay it out, it sounds (again) very much like the Triple Goddess…
but i just read earlier today that the Trinity was expressed by God, because it was unknowable - it was a thing God made to remind Man that He was unknowable. so maybe, being a filthy heathen, i should stop trying smile

Auguste: THATS HOW I FELT! heee!

Comment #49: denelian  on  05/05  at  02:53 AM

Dan: Your take would make sense if Neo was permanently plugged into the machine.  What gave me the impression of blurry existential lines in Matrix trilogy was that he was able to affect them without being plugged in, IIRC.

Comment #50: Mandos  on  05/05  at  03:17 AM

Who split off from whom depends on whom you consider to be the authority.  That’s the point about the Petrine Primacy.  The Orthodox churches operate under the principle that Jesus’ disciples conferred spiritually inherited disciplehood down through the generations onto a set of Patriarchs who were scattered through the Near East and beyond.  The Roman Catholic church claims that one of them (Peter) was particularly favoured by Jesus and hence his heirs (allegedly the Popes—-the Patriarchs of Rome) are likewise favoured.

The Eastern patriarchs never accepted this, working on a principle of separate but equal with a nominal first among equals being the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople (now known as the basically powerless Bartholomew I, who (I’m told) devotes his time to religious environmentalism).  So from their point of view, the dispute over the Nicene Creed was due to Western chicanery and the Westerners became heretics.  But from the Roman point of view, the alteration of the Creed was necessary to clarify issues on which Eastern theologians were making (to Rome) dubious interpretations.

Eventually things got to the point that Eastern Christianity apparently preferred to fall into the hands of the Ottomans than make any concession to the West.  And to this day the Ecumenical Patriarchate is situated in a Muslim city.

Comment #51: Mandos  on  05/05  at  03:32 AM

Mandos:

Your take would make sense if Neo was permanently plugged into the machine. What gave me the impression of blurry existential lines in Matrix trilogy was that he was able to affect them without being plugged in, IIRC.

I don’t remember the frame or context of that particular scene, but it sounds like something that ought to be written up to dramatic license and insufficient script review (i.e., “does it look cool?” took precedence over “does it make sense?”) rather than to a self-conscious philosophical claim.

Comment #52: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  05/05  at  04:37 AM

so maybe, being a filthy heathen, i should stop trying

I’m reminded of the cartoon where a fellow in a clerical collar tell a group of dark-skinned ‘natives’ in a tropical setting, “Now that I’ve read the gospel to you, you’re not pagans anymore.  You’re heathen.”

Professor Avenger, having married MA after a 6-week courtship, had to go to classes with a priest explaining Church Doctrine to him, and he looked forward to finding out what it was all about.  He was chagrined to learn that when something came up, (as in the Trinity Doctrine here) the priest would tell him, “It’s a mystery.”

Anyway, if you really want to get into a messy situation, you can look up the Old Believers, a schismatic branch of the Russian Orthodox Church, where differences ranged from doctrinal to seemingly small details, like giving a blessing with 2 fingers(traditional, emphasizing the dual nature of Christ) to the revised 3 finger blessing(to represent the Trinity).

Perhaps the best way to think of them in as the popular layman Catholic terms, The Old Man, The Kid and the Spook grin

Comment #53: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/05  at  05:48 PM

ahahahahah! Dark Aveneger, that is wonderful! and i will to my lapsed boyfriend as soon as he wakes up (he tells me that god and spirit and jesus are THREE seperate people, the second two serve the first one, that is why there is ONE god. and i had never heard THAT either lol)

the churchly schism are at least interesting (from a historical perspective - i would NEVER want to relive ANYONE of that, although chances are high i would be burned quickly, very early)

Manados:
my take on the Matrix revolves very VERY heavily around the roleplaying game “Mage”. to me, all the Zionites are one of a few types of mages (the “good guy mages”) and Neo and friends are all Correspondence mages (Virtual Adepts) and in the movies, it appears that the Technocracy has won (at least for now). but this explains how Neo was sometimes able to do things out of the matrix, as he would have been at LEAST a correspondence adept, wherever he went.
wow i hope that made sense. and did sometin other than prove my geekiness and need to take less painkillers

Comment #54: denelian  on  05/06  at  06:15 AM

*is* that the difference, today?

“Pagan” used to mean a person or people who did not worship/follow a religion approved of by Rome. at one point, Christianity was a Pagan religion lol

erm…. i really do need to dig the ofards acf check soon. not tonote, my eues wonet stay open and i appologize for whateer typos…......

Comment #55: denelian  on  05/08  at  06:20 AM
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