Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: The Religious Right: bearing false witness over and over about hate crimes legislation Previous entry: Please Stop Saying Stupid Things.  Love, America

Sunday Sermon: Does morality come from in or outside?

ReligionScience

One of the long-standing claims of pro-religionists is that without religion, there is no morality.  It’s a startling claim, for a couple of reasons.  The first is that they’re essentially saying that you must lie to people about a god watching in order to get them to behave, which already puts the moral system on the shaky ground of being immoral in and of itself.  It’s a claim that strikes atheists and liberal religious types as unlikely, because we experience morality as coming primarily from the inside.  You don’t strike other people when angry, even when you could get away with it, because hitting is wrong and disturbs you. 

But maybe they’re telling the truth.  Maybe many conservative types would have a hard time being moral without a series of endless rules to teach them not to be dangerous and evil.  With all the discussion over torture lately, it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that conservatives who defend the torture regime are assuming that it was right because the Republicans had power, i.e. they had might, which of course makes right.  There’s a fundamental break in how liberals and conservatives see the world in this case.  Sara Robinson traces it back, in many cases, to upbringing.  She contrasts liberal upbringing, which is about cultivating a person’s personality and sense of self, versus conservative parenting, which is about establishing authority and rules to limit a child and shape them into another authoritarian adult.  Now, obviously most households have some mix of the two, so what she’s saying here needs to be understood as archetypes, not absolutes.  (And not all liberals, no matter how they were raised, trust the cops.  Only the middle class white people who’ve never had to tangle with them—-everyone else wisely sees them as authoritarian creeps that are best avoided, just like you avoid dating guys who are interested in getting in physical confrontations with other men.)  What I found really interesting was that she describes the authoritarian upbringing as stifling the internal moral compass, so it can be replaced with an authoritarian worldview:

First, as a kid in this kind of household, you learn that your thoughts and feelings are untrustworthy—and furthermore, that people in authority are not the least bit interested in your internal life, only in your external behavior. Stop crying. Don’t give me any excuses. I don’t want to hear any more from you. Just do what I tell you—now. Or else. The message is that you can trust the rules, tradition, The Good Book, the boss, the preacher, or Daddy to tell you what’s right; but you should never ever trust your own instincts or thought processes. This pretty effectively inhibits the development of your own internal authority.


No wonder they think you need religion for morality!  But, as is usual in these culture war battles, liberals have science on our side.  In a sense, beating authority into a kid is hard because you have to squash their nascent sense of morality that increasingly appears to be rooted in biology.  Radio Lab did a fascinating episode tracking the research into where morality comes from, and it’s a combination of an innate human desire to latch onto cultural taboos and a sense of empathy, which is something they can even pinpoint developmentally.  The notion that atheists wouldn’t have a sense of morality is completely ridiculous if you look at the research, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they found that atheists and liberal religious types actually have a stronger sense of morality, because they aren’t distracted by a bunch of religious teachings that put, for example, patriarchal authority over your empathy for gay couples wishing to marry or abused women wishing to escape bad marriages.

Last time I wrote about the fascinating way that the human mind constructs morality, I mentioned that, for better or worse, the sense of moral judgment is linked to the sense of disgust, which surprised a number of commenters, who objected.  As weird as that sounds initially, though, it is what it is, and there’s a lot of research trying to suss out how the connection works and what it means.  With that in mind, I thought I’d bring your attention to this study that is awesome just for the comic factors. (Hat tip.)

What the researchers did was have someone stand behind a desk that was rigged with fart stink, from mild to strong.  So already this is awesome.  And then the person at the desk asked passing students questions about morality, things like:

  Matthew is playing with his new kitten late one night. He is wearing only his boxer shorts, and the kitten sometimes walks over his genitals. Eventually, this arouses him, and he begins to rub his bare genitals along the kitten’s body. The kitten purrs, and seems to enjoy the contact. How wrong is it for Matthew to be rubbing himself against the kitten?

There’s also questions about stealing, lying, incest, and violating people’s boundaries.  What they found was interesting——the stronger the fart stench, the more wrong the students found things like stealing or masturbating with kittens.  There’s charts!

They also invoked disgust in other ways, by having students imagine gross offices, disgusting movies, or disgusting memories, and found that moral judgments stiffened when people were disgusted.  They also flipped the scenario and tested students by getting half to wash their hands before answering the questions, with the excuse that the professor who owned it was a neatnik.  They found that students who had just washed their hands were less judgmental. 

What they’ve done is established more evidence for the relationship between morality and disgust.  Disgust causes more moral judgment, and people who feel particularly clean have a lot more give in their moral judgments.  I’m mildly surprised that anyone wouldn’t balk, regardless of the circumstances, at the idea of masturbating with a kitten.  But maybe I should take a shower and get back to you on that.

The good news is this: The scientific evidence that roots moral judgment in our sense of disgust, and moral goodness in our sense of empathy means that religious conservatives are absolutely wrong about whether we need religion for morality.  So no need to lie to people about the existence of a god to get them to comply.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:16 AM • (45) Comments

This is very interesting, followed through, because it implies that the judgmental religious nuts feel unclean or disgusted most of the time.

Also, I wonder if there is some sort of mitigating factor if a person understands that their reaction is based upon a personal disgust and tries to overcome it.

Comment #1: David B.  on  04/26  at  12:50 PM

The first time I remember encountering the idea that morality is, and can only be, based in religious belief was in college.  I had a professor flat out tell me this in a lab he was teaching (a way more informal place than a lecture) while we were shooting the shit.  It was an interesting thought, but very disturbing.  (I was born and raised a conservative Christian, and while it may have been strongly implied, I don’t ever remember hearing somebody saying that religion was necessary for morals to exist.)

I thought in college, and I still think now, that religions may seize parts of “natural” morality and try to take ownership of them, but that in reality they are basic aspects of human behavior and culture that are beyond mere religion.

But I’m just an immoral atheist dirty hippie, so what do I know about such fundamental questions…

Comment #2: MikeEss  on  04/26  at  12:55 PM

This is very interesting, followed through, because it implies that the judgmental religious nuts feel unclean or disgusted most of the time.

SInce one of the CORNERSTONES of organized Christian religion in America is ONE’S INHERENT SINFULNESS, uncleanness, and general depravity, this makes perfect sense! (It also speaks to the Church’s white-knuckled clinging to the whole Original Sin teaching.)

I wonder if the huge anti-gay sentiment espoused by the religious right has to do, primarily, with disgust? You know, the “disgust” they feel when they sit around for hours imagining what gays “do” to each other. Or for that matter, the licentious sex the Libruls are always having.

Comment #3: KMTBERRY  on  04/26  at  01:02 PM

If you’ve ever read Alfie Kohn, Author of “Punished by Rewards” and “Unconditional Parenting,” he talks about this stiffling of an internal moral compass by external controls. It really makes a whole hell of a lot of sense. It also mirrors the way Unitarian Universalists teach kids about sexuality issues. It is all based in giving kids the facts, talking to them about the consequences of their choices, and ultimately letting them make their own choices. And Voila! Most of the time, kids do the right thing. And when they do the wrong thing, they most likely learn from their mistakes and self-correct with a little guidance.

Now my own kids are only four years old, and I have to say that I am far from an Alfie Kohn purist. Sometimes, the train is coming, the pediatrician is waiting, and vaccines need to be had or whatever, and at four there is no way to reason into them that hurrying up to go get shots is a good idea. However, you can let kids make their own decisions in many little ways even at four, and by the teenage years, that compass can almost be fully developed.

Naturally, conservatives in my family are HORRIFIED by my approach. But, although my kids are far from perfect little angels, I’m not seeing a huge difference between my kids and others their age. On the contrary, many times my kids are much more polite and empathetic than theirs are.

But I think it does come down to a different world view. To see your child as inherently sinful that needs to have the sin beaten out of them (literally or metaphorically) is really a sad way to look at your kids.

Comment #4: Lexie  on  04/26  at  01:12 PM

This is very interesting, followed through, because it implies that the judgmental religious nuts feel unclean or disgusted most of the time.

Well, they make it worse for themselves by reinforcing the link.  It’s not surprising to me that fundies are much more interested in full immersion baptisms, for instance, and the statistical evidence shows that even though they have as much premarital sex as the rest of us, they aren’t as interested in oral sex.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  01:46 PM

Folks like Pascal Boyer, Dan Dennet and Andy Thompson are developing a pretty robust cognitive neuroscientific model of religious belief.  It turns out there are no areas of the brain dedicated to religious feelings.  Religion seems to hijack areas of the brain involved in empathy and social relationships, areas that would have evolved long before any religious ideas ever developed.  In other words, religion is not a prerequisite for morality.  Rather, religion piggybacks on our innate moral sense.

When they start teaching this in American high schools, be prepared for all hell to break loose.

Comment #6: BABH  on  04/26  at  02:30 PM

Oh, they never will. You’re lucky if high school science classes get to the point where kids know what the periodic table of elements is.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  02:43 PM

I don’t know.  If we’re able to describe it as “neurodevelopment” and we include stuff about neurodevelopment of fetuses, the right wing might go for it.  At first.

And then the fighting begins when little Jonny finds out that there’s no religious part of the brain and tells Pastor Dan

Comment #8: Maureen  on  04/26  at  03:08 PM

I thought in college, and I still think now, that religions may seize parts of “natural” morality and try to take ownership of them, but that in reality they are basic aspects of human behavior and culture that are beyond mere religion.

That pretty much nails it, MikeEss.  The more literalist Christians I have tangled with in the blogosphere insist that their interpretation of the Bible is the objective standard of right and wrong.  They concede that atheists can be moral, but compare our beliefs about whether it is okay or not to rape children to picking a flavor of ice cream.  We don’t rape children merely because it is our personal preference no too, but we have no basis for telling other people they can’t rape children.  It’s very sad to see people’s minds warped like that.

What I try to point out to them is that what they believe is the source of objective morality is simply someone else’s subjective morality wrapped up in the guise of a divine command system.

Comment #9: Tommykey  on  04/26  at  03:14 PM

Umberto Eco’s done a pretty good job of showing how a system of ethics can be derived without divine intervention; it can be found here.  It’s actually pretty good to whip out when confronted with people who believe that morality can only come from religion.

Comment #10: Maureen  on  04/26  at  03:49 PM

My mind boggled a bit at the masturbate-with-a-kitten idea even before morality became a question because (i) kittens have sharp teeth and claws, and (ii) at unpredictable intervals they playfully attack nearby cat-toy-sized objects.

Comment #11: Cyan, Lord High Procrastinator  on  04/26  at  04:00 PM

Only the middle class white people who’ve never had to tangle with them—-everyone else wisely sees them as authoritarian creeps that are best avoided, just like you avoid dating guys who are interested in getting in physical confrontations with other men.)

So… telling my prospective dates about the naked Greek wrestling with other guys is a tactical mistake?

Amanda, you may find John Fowles “The Aristos” and James Carse’s “Finite and Infinite Games” interesting here, if you haven’t read them already.

Comment #12: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  04/26  at  04:06 PM

I wonder if the huge anti-gay sentiment espoused by the religious right has to do, primarily, with disgust? You know, the “disgust” they feel when they sit around for hours imagining what gays “do” to each other. Or for that matter, the licentious sex the Libruls are always having

Or they’re imagining what they would like to do.  All these sex scandals of religious and conservative leaders seems to show that they’re just as, or maybe more, pervy than the rest of us.  They just feel disgusted and ashamed of it; therefore they judge the rest of us that much more harshly.

Comment #13: keshmeshi  on  04/26  at  04:07 PM

You should be careful with appeals to evolved tendencies, or risk committing the naturalistic fallacy, a subset of the is-ought problem.  Humans may come with tendencies toward some pro-social behaviors and feelings, but we also have strong, apparently innate tendencies to make a whole bunch of cognitive errors.  We would not say those are good just because they are a part of human nature.

Morality is a more complex problem philosophically than it might first appear.  At some point you have to take something as a given, whether you ascribe to utilitarianism and accept that happiness is necessarily good or Kantian deontology and accept that contradiction is necessarily bad.

The divine command theorists, however, are no better off.  They have to accept GOD as a given, which is a less credible axiom than the others I mentioned.

Comment #14: Hari Narayan Singh Khalsa  on  04/26  at  04:26 PM

Hey, as long as you stop when the kitten stops purring…

I’m a manager at a large family friendly retail chain. It’s like going to child-psychology development lab every day. Actually, I have no formal training in psychology, no children, and not many friends with children. I like to think systematically about things and think of myself as a pioneering scientiest doing a field study of a community of little studied social animals.

I can say almost without exception that authoritarian parenting does not work. Entirely leaving aside the issue whether it’s better for the or for the kids: IT ALMOST NEVER HELPS THE PARENT MEET THEIR IMMEDIATE GOALS. The parent wants a reasonably paced, mostly uneventful shopping experience. Kid is tired cranky and mildly misbehaving. I’m not sure what the best thing to do in this situation, talking to the kid about respecting others property, or paying attention to the kid and asking a question that engages the kid in meeting the goals of the shopping experience are pretty effective options; But I can say that threatening the child, epecially with a spanking, MAKES BEHAVIOR GO FROM BAD TO WORSE. Sometimes so much worse that the parent has to abandon the shopping trip. So, did the parent meet their goals in these cases? No! So without even investigating the issue of what better for the child, I can already say that this strategy is worse for the parent.

And quit yammering to your friend on your cell phone. Your children will grow up and leave. Pay attention while they’re still around.

Give kids a pretty good allowance and then don’t buy them shit ever when they whine. If they want it, they can save their money. If they hit the candy rack by the and spend their last dollar on bottle pops, don’t get mad and say they should have asked permission first. Let them learn the natural consequences of not having that money.

Just a few observations from an animal behaviorist.

I train rodents and birds. I can tame the most viscious hamster in fives sessions spread out over three days. I agree with Kohn that punishments and rewards are overrated. Most bad behavior in rodents and birds are the result of fear or some other internal distress. The way to get the animal to do what you want it to do is to create an atmosphere that minimizes that distress, and then STAY CALM and then MAKE the animal at least halfway comply with what you want it to. A wild hamster will bite the shit out of you. Don’t freak out. Pick it up anyway even though your hands are dripping blood. The hamster needs to learn that biting simply doesn’t work After it has complied, spend a little mellow time together with it walking across your hands and thighs to see that being picked up isn’t so bad. I rehabed an abused parrot the same way. Within two weeks she let me grind her nails. Yes, my hands were so cut and swollen I could barely close them, but I never lost my cool and the bird got a nice adoptive home after wasting away in a shelter.

I think the same stuff is true of human children. Most bad behavior is due to internal distress and the child’s expectation that the behavior will reduce this distress. Make an effort to reduce this distress. Often with with children it’s boredom. Involve them by asking questions like “What kind of dog toy do you think Rex would like?” or “Our aquarium is small, we don’t want to get a fish that gets too big for it. Sally, can you read the labels for Mike so he can know how big each fish will get? If it’s under three inches, he can pick one”. But if things start going wrong, parents need to stay calm and meet their minimal goals. No threats, no punishments, no rewards. Children, like hamsters and parrots, need to learn their bad behavior is simply irrelevant.

I am the hamster whisperer. Would this make me a good dad? Being a parent may still be in the cards for me.

Comment #15: Bacopa  on  04/26  at  04:27 PM

I do consider that really more interesting question is where does immorality come from?

For the religious, we have answers to the effect of “Man is fallen and stained.”

Obviously, this answer is not particularly satisfying for the nonreligious.

I’ve held, and admittedly this sounds more like an argument from faith than anything scientifically proven (though I do think psychology COULD test it) that the basic cause of immoral behavior is a lack of empathy. One typically does not commit a crime against one they fully process as being just like them, with feelings and such. They come up with excuses as to why it doesn’t matter. That it doesn’t really bother the victim as much as it would bother them, that the victim is already bad, so they somehow “deserve” it, going as far as the victim not being human, or at least not fully human, and so that their feelings don’t count.

As a rule, empathy is easier between people who are more alike. Blood relations are easier than neighbors are easier than strangers are easier than foreigners who are nothing more than statistics to the wrongdoer.

This othering process is ultimately irrational, because those people ARE still human, still have the same feelings you do, and will likely suffer as much as you would placed in such a situation.

In this way, Morality is simply Empathy Applied, whereas immorality is a failure of empathy.

The most logical disproof would be finding a situation where the moral thing is not the empathic thing, or where the empathic thing were the immoral thing.

I have yet to find such a thing.

Comment #16: karpad  on  04/26  at  04:36 PM

It used to drive me insane when my mom would say “It’s the Christian thing to do” when answering one of my questions about why we were doing something I found inane or annoying like helping the church set up for yet another function. I always wondered if that meant she only did those charitable things because it was Christian-like and not because it was the right thing to do. Did that mean she would do something immoral if it was considered the Christian thing to do? I didn’t realize it at the age of 7 but I was struggling with my mother’s idea that Christianity IS morality.
For the better part of my childhood we attended a liberal Episcopal church in San Francisco where the idea that Christianity is morality by proxy was not taught but my mother’s repeated use of that phrase turned me off Christianity and most Christians forever. I have always found using my own morals led to better choices for me than anything the church told me. I’ve found many people that were raised in religious households have this same inner struggle, especially my LGBT friends.
Although the priest at my church once told me that the trick to getting through high school was figuring out which classes I could get away with skipping and when so I only had to deal with that purgatory when it was absolutely necessary to graduate. (Purgatory was his word not mine.) After much thought I decided to substitute his morality for mine that time. After all it was the Christian thing to do.

Comment #17: shakahi  on  04/26  at  04:57 PM

..This is somewhat off topic, but..

Bacopa, I must say I’m really impressed with what you do. I’m a big fan of birds, but I can’t even imagine trying to rehabilitate a cranky parrot, especially a Macaw. Those beaks are almost as big as my hand!

Comment #18: Khar  on  04/26  at  05:06 PM

I totally agree with you Karpad, that morality is empathy amplified. I would say that much of progressive politics is based on value system rooted in empathy while the conservative/Libertarian side of things is fundamentally about a “me first” mentality along side a love of authority which seemingly contradicts it. The Christian religious nuts by pass the parts of Jesus’s message that stressed empathy and go straight to the angry sky daddy of the old testament who punishes people who don’t fit in with THEIR worldview. They dress that up as “morality”.

Comment #19: AdamN  on  04/26  at  05:27 PM

I have become convinced that many religious fundamentalists and conservatives are attached to autocratic, absolutist morality structures because they lack any internal moral sense.  that is, if they did not fear punishment they would behave very badly indeed.  Unfortunately they also believe that everyone else is just like them and so insist on imposing their moral structure on society as a whole.  Most progressives on the other hand have a fairly strong internal moral sense and behave morally because they believe that they should and they genuinely feel bad (not just fear of getting caught) when they fail to live up to that internal moral code.

Comment #20: DrDick  on  04/26  at  05:36 PM

No threats, no punishments, no rewards. Children, like hamsters and parrots, need to learn their bad behavior is simply irrelevant.

Parents can also completely ignore bad behavior, particularly bad behavior that’s meant to get the parents to comply with what the child wants, like getting them to buy the child something in a store.  Tantrums are really a power ploy, especially when thrown in public, and if the parent can completely ignore it and show not even the slightest emotion (irritation, embarrassment, whatever), then the child sees that tantrums don’t work and will eventually cut it out.  Unfortunately, most people don’t have that kind of intestinal fortitude.

Comment #21: keshmeshi  on  04/26  at  05:41 PM

“The most logical disproof would be finding a situation where the moral thing is not the empathic thing, or where the empathic thing were the immoral thing.
I have yet to find such a thing.”

Depends on what you mean by the empathic thing.  Reactive empathy, empathy as unexamined emotion, results in trying to satisfy someone’s immediate wants.  It is usually not moral to give an addict drugs just because it would make him immediately happy to have them.  Empathy should be tempered with reason and a view that goes beyond the immediate.

Also, there is the utilitarian paradox.  If you take empathy to its ultimate conclusion, you will see that the world is filled with people who have it worse than you.  If you spend every moment giving to the less fortunate, you will soon have nothing left to give.  Again, empathy has to be tempered, either by a counterweight of self-interest or the practicality to build up your own psychological and physical capital a bit to increase your capacity for giving.

Comment #22: Hari Narayan Singh Khalsa  on  04/26  at  05:55 PM

Kahr, I’ve never rehabed a macaw. Last bird was a female Eclectus. In the wild the females kill each other over nesting holes and a female with a good nest can maintain a harem of up to ten males. Dominant female raise huge clutches of eggs as the female seldom leaves her nest except to kill other females and she and her hatchlings are crop fed by her harem during nesting season. Because of violence between females there are about three males for every female, and a female with a good nest can attract as many as ten males, and only about four of them will be the fathers of the clutch. No matter, parrots have long reproductive livespans and lower-ranking males feed mother and babies in hopes of being a preferred partner two seasons in the future.

These parrots are badass. She cut me up so badly I couldn’t close my hands. I hung the Dremel grinder just outside her cage and turned it on. She feared it, became fascinated with it, and came to ignore it.

I reduced stress, forced her to step up, and eventually ground her nails. I used no positive or negative reenforcement of any kind. I showed her the the outcome I wanted was inevitable whatever she did, and that what I wanted wasn’t so bad after all. I’ve been to her new home. Her favorite game is to get the dogs riled up by mimicing the doorbell or the key turning in the lock. She then starts barking like a dog and gets them all howling. The dogs have wised up, so now she does this only when it’s likely someone is coming home.

I have not yet taken on a finger-amputating macaw. I think I’d need sharkproof chainmail for that though I usually prefer to work without gloves to teach my rehab animals the human body is not as frail as they might hope.

In any case, I think the same lessons can be applied to human children. I care about you. I will address your internal problems to an extent. I will not let your bad behavior stop me from achieving my my goals. And after it’s all over we’ll have a mutual cooling off time. No punishments. no rewards, just the simple message that the adult understands and cares and that adult’s goals will be fulfillled no matter what.

Comment #23: Bacopa  on  04/26  at  06:04 PM

The most logical disproof would be finding a situation where the moral thing is not the empathic thing, or where the empathic thing were the immoral thing.

I have yet to find such a thing.

Ahem - “Grandmotherly kindness”.

Once a student of Zen asked his teacher, “Who is the Buddha?” The master
replied by picking up his staff and whacking his pupil hard against the
head. The student, as emotionally hurt as physically, left the teacher and
went in search of a new master. Eventually he was accepted by an instructor
who realized that the student had been exposed to Zen. The new teacher
asked the student where he had studied, whereupon the student explained how
his former master had hit him. The new master became indignant with anger.
“Go back to your former teacher,” he demanded, “and apologize for not
thanking him for his grandmotherly kindness!”

Comment #24: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  04/26  at  06:48 PM

In the years before widespread literacy, religion was an oral tradition.  As such, it was used to encode important cultural lessons and information that wasn’t written down or was only written down for a select few who could read it.

Religion is a packaging and transmission vehicle for a cohesive set of societal values.  Values and ethics and morality exist just fine without it now that people can write things down.

Comment #25: Ms Kate  on  04/26  at  06:57 PM

The parent wants a reasonably paced, mostly uneventful shopping experience. Kid is tired cranky and mildly misbehaving. I’m not sure what the best thing to do in this situation

Leaving the store is pretty effective.

Comment #26: Ms Kate  on  04/26  at  06:59 PM

Hari, I can’t find where I made a specific claim about the content of a moral system in a post where I said that we have a tendency towards morality, but that society injects the content.  Perhaps you could point it out?

Comment #27: Amanda Marcotte  on  04/26  at  06:59 PM

Ms Kate, leaving the store is NOT effective. The parent has not fulfiled goals in this case. Better to address potential misbehavior ahead of time and meet your needs in spite of it than to abandon yur project. If you back down in front of an angry parrot it will bite even more next time. Ride it out, get some of what you want, and cool off together.

Comment #28: Bacopa  on  04/26  at  07:28 PM

Conservatives believe evil comes from violating rules; liberals believe evil comes from violating each other.

Fundamentally, it is indeed a different understanding of where good and evil come from. Conservatives, or really, authoritarians, believe there is a set of rules that guide morality. These rules, in order not to be arbitrary, must come from outside humanity - God, for almost all of them. Hence the belief that atheists are inherently arbitrary in their moral beliefs. I think “liberal” morality is based primarily on empathy and altruism, the recognition that others have an internal life and that cooperation is necessary for the functioning of human society. I would also venture that “liberal” morality is based on the idea that exploitation is the ultimate sin. All the things that the liberal and the authoritarian agree are wrong can be brought back to exploitation - stealing, murder, dishonesty - all amount to taking from another without permission or without just compensation. The things that they disagree on can also be seen in this way - environmentalism can be seen (in part) as opposition to various kinds of exploitation, while the conservative bugaboos about sexual behavior generally can’t.

Comment #29: Theron  on  04/26  at  08:43 PM

In the days before fundamentalists, philosophers used to debate questions like whether things were right because god commanded them or god commanded them because they were right…

I wonder about this, because my own moral compass (it seems) was formed in large part by being near the bottom of the heap. When you’re low-status it seems pretty clear which behaviors are moral/ethical and which aren’t, because all the unethical people who are higher in status use that difference to screw over lower-status people. Is it possible to develop empathy without spending some time near the (perceived) bottom?

Comment #30: paul  on  04/26  at  09:44 PM

This also has a lot to do with the division of mind from body in the philosophical dualistic sense.  If rules are seen to have nothing to do with the emotional inwardness of a human being, and if the emotional inwardness is considered to produce only reactions that are pejoratively “emotional” then there is going to develop a discordancy between mental reasoning processes and inward emotionality.  This discordancy will cause confusion, psychological pain and a sense of being unwell—those things that Christians register as a feeling of “sin”.

Comment #31: scratchy888  on  04/26  at  09:45 PM

i have exactly ONE “religious” law that i follow:
try not to harm anyone.

oh, this is the most applicable law EVER. for instance, unlike Christianity, it covers drinking and driving - don’t do it, because you will probably hurt someone, even if its just your wallet. don’t speed-it increases the chances of you hurting someone. don’t do (most) drugs, it increases the chances of you harming someone (and *I* am someone! shouldn’t harm me, either)

Christianty is SUPPOSED to have those rules, too. by my religious law, not letting gay people get married (denying them equality and safety) is HARM to the gay people; letting them get married does NOT HARM anyone.


as for the empathic/moral and umempathic/immoral…
there are people who CLAIM that they beat their spouses/children to help them. some of these people even believe it - that if they don’t beat their spouse/kid, bad things will happen to the spouse/kid.
now, i really cannot think of anyway that abuse is moral. not saying that it ever is. i am saying that some people think that they are abusing from an empathetic, moral place. i think that is where the lance should go - teaching what empathy *REALLY* is…

Comment #32: denelian  on  04/26  at  10:22 PM

Bacopa, it is effective if it keeps me from doing to my children what my father used to do to my Brother who has (and was then not known to have) Aspergers.

If I’m ready to inflict a beating on one of my children, it’s time to go outside and go home.

Comment #33: Ms Kate  on  04/26  at  10:23 PM

I read the post again, and it looks like I read it wrong the first time.  You were not making a claim about the particular rightness of any moral tendencies, just saying that moral tendencies exist as part of human heritage.

Comment #34: Hari Narayan Singh Khalsa  on  04/26  at  10:30 PM

Ms Kate, your solution is better because:
1. much more social than letting the child continue their tantrum. The people around a crying child experience various kinds of stress and removing the child calms everyone else.
2. if the kid is crying because they want something in the store, leaving means they don’t get it. If the kid is crying because they are hot, thirsty, sore-footed, etc, it’s easier to deal with when you and they are less distracted so their needs can be dealt with. And getting a thirsty child a drink isn’t “letting them win”, Bacopa. It’s keeping them healthy. I would suggest that tending a pet with ready access to drink is not the same.

Comment #35: Samantha Vimes  on  04/26  at  11:06 PM

Dude, that kitten was totally asking for it!

Comment #36: Tesla Dethray  on  04/26  at  11:27 PM

That’s very interesting. I’ve always strongly associated my moral sense with my aesthetic sense—doing the right thing feel right in the same way that a beautiful painting looks right. I guess you could argue that the inverse of aesthetic rightness is disgust. That would be an interesting study: are aesthetics and disgust connected? Do people judge art differently if they’re smelling farts?

Comment #37: heresiarch  on  04/27  at  02:40 AM

When I was a kid, I was generally well-behaved.  But when I did something bad, my mom would say, “How would you like it if someone did that to you?”  That was more effective than any punishment.

Personally, I would be afraid to be alone in the same room with someone who claims that their morality is based only on a set of rules and threat of punishment.  If the only thing stopping that person from stealing from me or murdering me is the threat of either jail or Hell, then it’s much easier for them to do something immoral.  If their biggest fear is jail, then they simply need to commit a crime in a way that they won’t get caught.  Essentially, this means that they won’t be punished for stealing from me, but instead they will be punished for getting caught.  This rewards people for learning how to lie better.  If the person’s biggest fear is Hell, then that’s a little different because they believe that God is watching them all the time.  In this case, they can do something immoral if they can come up with a good enough rationalization.  This situation rewards people for deluding themselves into thinking that an immoral act is somehow justified, and it encourages them to go to ridiculous lengths to rationalize their behavior.  It would be a little scary to be alone with someone who would be perfectly willing to kill me if only they could think of a good enough excuse to stay out of Hell.  Personally, I have never killed anyone because I have empathy for other people.  There has never been a time when I thought, “I would totally kill this person but I don’t want to risk going to Hell or getting the death penalty.”  I don’t want to derail the thread, but this is essentially why the death penalty is not an effective deterrent.  Even though so many people preach about their morals being based on threat of punishment, I don’t think that it’s completely true for most of them.

Conservatives believe evil comes from violating rules; liberals believe evil comes from violating each other.

I wish I could get this statement on a T-shirt.

Comment #38: bananacat  on  04/27  at  10:42 AM

It’s a standing joke among truck drivers that we don’t run over the idiot four-wheelers because we don’t want the paperwork.

Unfortunately, a lot of external morality is exactly that: not wanting to deal with paperwork, whether legal or spiritual.

When I was Christian, I believed I HAD to be a Christian. I knew what an awful, horrible, psychopathic person I was even as a Christian and without the constraints of my faith, I would be even worse.  Oddly, when I walked away, I didn’t become an axe murder or completely unliveable. In fact, I was calmer, more centered and generally nicer. I dropped my self-loathing homophobia and my overt racism.

I’ve come to the conclusion that there is no morality, really. There’s just a sense of superiority when others fail to conform to your ideas of “proper behavior.”

Comment #39: Angelia Sparrow  on  04/27  at  11:37 AM

How about this:

“Actions motivated by fear are immoral; actions motivated by love are moral.”

“But what about actions that are motivated by neither fear nor love?”

“All motivations can be reduced to one or the other, or if they can’t, then those actions so motivated are amoral.”

So, hatred, disgust, envy, anger, intolerance, judgmentalism, authoritarianism, and destructiveness are all expressions of fear. Empathy, attraction, good will, tolerance, acceptance, rationality, creativity, and understanding are all expressions of love.

Comment #40: rx7ward  on  04/27  at  01:44 PM

heresiarch has it right.  Moral judgments are aesthetic judgments (and vice-versa).  They are about how we would like the world to be, not how it is.  The universe doesn’t care whether or not nuclear war wipes out all humanity tomorrow, but most people have an emotional response to the idea.

Comment #41: BABH  on  04/28  at  03:25 AM

Samantha Vines and MS Kate: sometimes removal is the best option. Better yet to have dealt with thirst, hunger, and sore feet ahead of time. I would not attempt to tame a violent rodent or bird that did not have these basic needs met, but once the animal has what it needs, I’m gonna get what I want whatever it does without recourse to threats, punishments, or rewards. Closest thing I give to a reward is a little “everything’s OK” time once the hamster has been picked up or the parrot has stepped up.

Comment #42: Bacopa  on  04/28  at  03:49 AM

Personally, I think being raised by conservative parents MADE me liberal.  A lot of the liberals I know come from similar backgrounds.  I think it has to do with intelligence, empathy, and curiosity about the world, and whether you are a person who is motivated by fear.

Comment #43: StellaTex  on  04/28  at  09:33 AM

Perhaps Christian rites ought to go back to some of the Jewish ritual practices of ritual washing or bathing? or to the foot washing done before Muslim prayer? General confession (congregational response stating that they have fallen short of the ideal, and wish forgiveness from God), followed by communion, may not be kinesthetic enough for most people’s psychological makeup.

Actually, Ceiling Cat is not watching you masturbate. Ceiling Cat has come down from the bed demanding to know why you are paying attention to yourself and not feeding Ceiling Cat instead.

Comment #44: NancyP  on  04/28  at  01:24 PM

...down from the ceiling onto the bed…

Comment #45: NancyP  on  04/28  at  01:24 PM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.