But, but Amanda…he was just standing next to her! He couldn’t help who he was standing next to. How is it his fault that he just happened to be standing next to a black woman when the urge struck him to whistle a favorite historical tune from his proud childhood heritage?

/snark

How’d I do?

I’d dance on the man’s grave, if it weren’t for all the puddles of urine . . .

And Ultramagnus, that might work, if he hadn’t said publically that he was going to keep doing it until she cried.

Well…then…then…maybe he wanted her to cry tears of joy for the old pride and heritage that her ancestors threw away? Maybe? A little bit?

Shit, I give up. I can only bend logic so far.

I’d watch out, MAJeff. Bill O’Reilly will call you “worse than the KKK” for saying stuff like that. And we all know there’s nothing worse than being an OLD RACIST BASTARD.

But what I want to know is: what was the jacuzzi doing in the “birthing centre” room? To help the father relax? Such toys don’t do anything for hard indicators of infant mortality.
Rest her soul, I miss that woman EVERY DAMN DAY. Do you know how much I wish she were still with us during this campaign?  Yes, you probably do.  Sigh…

I’m right there with you, Cat Ion.  I wanted him to have to call a black person “Mr. President” at least once before he bought it.

Jessie Helms sucked ass to the end. And don’t yall think we’re a buncha racists assholes down here. Texas is almost lost to the fundie wingnits these days, but the wise elders of my youth took abot the most calm and reasonable approach to the civil rights movement there ever was. No marches, no protests, no agitation, no Freedom Riders from up north, no white trash riff-raff from out of town, just reasonable people agreeing about the way things ought to be. I highly recommend _The Strange Demise of Jim Crow_.

http://www.newsreel.org/nav/title.asp?tc=CN0088

I was brought up shopping at Foley’s because of the part they played. I hated it when they were bought out by May Company and then by Macey’s. Foley’s, Woolworth’s (now defunct), and other retailers, The Houston Post (now defunct), The Houston Chronicle. KPRC,  KTRH, KHOU, KTRK all joinded in in a media blackout to minimize public disturbance, and within a few weeks it was all over.I am proud of my city that we took such a civilized approach and I hope that we can lead Texas out of it’s current crisis. Fundies are running amok here and dragging us to the dark ages even though my state was a progresive leader in the 50s-70s. Austin is comfortable, but it’s still a backwater filled mostly with posers. Big money and clout is elsewhere, and I hope the big money does the right thing just as it did back in the day.

I would have whistled “Battle Hymn of the Republic” right back at him, but then again it is a really hard song to whistle.

Many of my ancestors fought for the Union in the Civil War.  I got just as much pride, heritage, and history as any idiot hugging the stars and bars, plus my ancestors weren’t working to preserve a racist form of feudalism.  It’s hilarious that the people who scream “treason” at any and all dissenters today refuse to recognize the largest act of treason in American history for what it was.

Sick old bastard is dead. World is better place.

With apologies to all sick old bastards; our English language is rather limited when we need to describe someone like Helms.

I don’t think the American Civil War was any more an act of treason than the American Revolution. The fact of the matter is that the Civil War was a fight for states rights, unfortunately one of those rights was slavery. Northerners didn’t see the war as some great moral fight to free slaves, they saw it as trying to reunite a nation. Generally, Southerners viewed the War as a fight for independence not the right to retain slaves. The rich plantation owners were the ones who were fighting to keep hold of the vile practice of slavery.

As far as the Confederate Battle Flag goes, it was just that. It wasn’t the national ensign of the Confederacy. The Confederate Flag resembled the Revolutionary flag.

http://www.civilwar.si.edu/soldiering_conf_flag.html

As a Southerner, I find it highly offensive when racist groups use the battle flag as a symbol of hate. To me, the battle flag does in fact represent my southern heritage and I am proud to be from the south. The only reason the battle flag is viewed by some to be a symbol of racism is because we as a nation are dumb enough to let racist morons and civil liberties organizations tell us it is.

Someone will probably try to label me as a racist but seeing as mife wife is a person of color I’m pretty sure that’s a label that can’t be applied to me. I am however a bigot, I hate racists no matter what color their skin is.

Only a Texan would think it was super liberal and magnanimous that the media blacked out all mention of Civil Rights protest in Houston back in the day…

The fact of the matter is that the Civil War was a fight for states rights

Jesse Helms, who’s perhaps one of the finest examples of southern conservatism, felt that “Dixie” was a song which was appropriate to use as a means of harrassing his African-American colleagues. I, for one, am going to take his word for it on the matter of what pro-Confederate southernness is all about.

“I, for one, am going to take his word for it on the matter of what pro-Confederate southernness is all about.” -Tyro

Thanks for proving my point.

“The only reason the battle flag is viewed by some to be a symbol of racism is because we as a nation are dumb enough to let racist morons and civil liberties organizations tell us it is.” -Me

You’re not really that dumb, are you?

“I don’t think the American Civil War was any more an act of treason than the American Revolution.”

I agree wholeheartedly.  The rebelling colonists were committing treason against king and country, the same way the CSA did against the United States.  But Americans do not pretend we that we can celebrate our country and be good citizens of the British Empire at the same time.  A lot of time has passed, we certainly get along with England just fine now, but we are not part of their nation.

I wish southerners would be as clear-headed and honest about their treason as the original colonies were.

The only reason the battle flag is viewed by some to be a symbol of racism is because we as a nation are dumb enough to let racist morons and civil liberties organizations tell us it is.

Says you. And since you are wrong, my original point stands. The Confederate battle flag is viewed as a symbol of racism because it was the battle flag of a nation spearheading a racist enterprise and promoted by their descendants who put the flag on their state capitol buildings to protest desegregation. Racist is as racist does. When singing Dixie and the confederate flag the calling card of racists, while non-racists don’t associate themselves with such things, it’s hard to claim that it’s somehow “not racist.”

Jesse Helms is, today, lauded as a fine example of southern conservatism and a defender of southern conservative values. And he recognized Dixie as a wonderful means of harassing African Americans. Who am I to argue?

I don’t care if you’re a southerner. That doesn’t mean you have to identify or defend their warped and twisted history, and you’re not going to get any sympathy when you try to. So cast away the confederate flag. Discuss the civil war as an act of treason in defense of slavery, as it was. Don’t try to give us this, “I’m a southerner, and I’m a nice guy, so it must be ok when I defend the civil war, dixie, and the confederate flag.” It’s not ok.

we are not part of their nation.

And it would also be good to remember that, because of that act of treason 230-whatever years ago, we are far less culturally British than all the good colonies who stuck it out and were handed their independence on a platter centuries later.  There’s a reason we spell “color” and “honor” a little differently, prefer coffee to tea, and have gone out of our way to invent alternatives to sports like cricket and rugby.  And I’m happy we can all admit it was because of our successfully treasonous framers and not invent some sort of elaborate fiction about how the Revolution was really more about the metaphysics of tax policy, when you get down to it.  Because that’s a sign of an honest group of people with healthy amount of self-awareness.

The south could take a lesson.

I am a proud Son of a Confederate Veteran, my 3x great grandfather fought for the confederacy and for him it wasn’t about slavery.  He was a dirt poor farmer and didn’t own any slaves.  He like many fought for the ton of other reasons, not slavery.  I suggest you go back and read a little history and understand that war was not solely about slavery, especially for thousands of poor southerners that did not own slaves.  Stars and Bars forever! it’s about history not hatred!

And it would also be good to remember that, because of that act of treason 230-whatever years ago, we are far less culturally British than all the good colonies who stuck it out and were handed their independence on a platter centuries later.

And you consider this an advantage?

There’s a reason we spell “color” and “honor” a little differently,

Deliberate political move by Webster.

prefer coffee to tea,

No idea why this occurred.  Economics?  Coffee more addictive?

and have gone out of our way to invent alternatives to sports like cricket and rugby.

You’re sexually insecure cretins who need to pad up alpha males so you can worship them.

“The only reason the battle flag is viewed by some to be a symbol of racism is because we as a nation are dumb enough to let racist morons and civil liberties organizations tell us it is.” Jason

Actually, we’re smart enough to notice what a symbol is used to symbolize.  The segregationists raised the old Confederate battle flag back in the ‘50s and it’s been a racist symbol ever since.  Which is not to say that every dumbass high school kid in the south who puts one on his bedroom wall (as I think one of my brothers did, thirty+ years ago) is a Klansman-in-training, just a dumbass.

I’ve lived all my life (less ‘85-88) in the Deep South and every attempt I’ve seen to claim some kind of Southern Heritage is just false nostalgia, as if most people in the antebellum south weren’t dirt-poor and pig-ignorant, like most of my ancestors.  I’m not ashamed of them.  They were people doing the best with what they had at the time, which wasn’t much.  But I try not to have any illusions about their gentility or nobility; as Southerners they had no more of either than your run-of-the-mill laborer, farmer, or clerk in Pennsylvania or Illinois.

Well, I can see the KKK is very influential in your thought. They have you completely convinced that a piece of cloth with a design on it represents nothing more than hate. I’m sure they are thankful for people like yourself; those who are easily swayed by ignorance.

Why are you afraid to deny them their symbol of hate by making it a non symbol. Are you so comforted by the fact that you have something tangible to blame, something that can be removed from sight.

In the end you and I are on the same side of the issue of racism, at least I think we are. I just refuse to let them tell me a piece of cloth is bad and should be banned from public view. I guess in a way I’m no better than you though. I have only made a few small attempts to change local opinion and when they failed I gave up. Maybe I should try again.

He like many fought for the ton of other reasons, not slavery.

Well, it’s pretty likely that his state’s resolution of secession felt a lot differently about the matter and was pretty explicit about the fact they were fighting for the maintenance and expansion of slavery.

Just because some evil, treasonous wealthy slave-owning plantation asshole convinced your ancestor to go to war and risk his life for something he had no personal stake in, and only helped the treasonous assholes that were sending him off to die is a tragedy, not a point of pride.

But such is the history of the south: the rich whites whipping up anger and resentment among the poor whites against the blacks. Jesse Helms understood that well and continued the tradition into the modern age. People are saying today that he exemplified southern conservatism, and I cannot possibly disagree.

I just refuse to let them tell me a piece of cloth is bad and should be banned from public view.
I for one welcome the rights of “Southern Pride” businesses to display the confederate flag - it’s a giant sign warning me not to patronize them.

But putting it on a state flag says that the state ENDORSES everything that it stands for - like secession and segregation.

Lincoln should have just let them break off, and offered asylum to any slaves who managed to get to the border.

I would have whistled “Battle Hymn of the Republic” right back at him, but then again it is a really hard song to whistle.

I had a fantasy of Mosley-Braun turning around and whistling the theme song from Deliverance back at him….

“I just refuse to let them tell me a piece of cloth is bad and should be banned from public view.”

Oh, I’m not suggesting the stars-and-bars be banned.  I don’t suggest banning the Nazi swastika, either.  I merely feel they should both be held in the same regard: as the banner of (to quote Onion) racist hate nations whose downfall made the world a better place.

“...understand that war was not solely about slavery, especially for thousands of poor southerners that did not own slaves.”

Yeah, it was also about keeping poor whites in the same quasi-feudal state they’d been in for centuries.  Lot of good people fought for Nazi Germany as well, but it doesn’t make the nation itself any less of a blot on humanity’s record.

I believe Jason and cookie have a point. The Confederate battle flag, like most symbols, has different meanings for different people. For many, it represents the government-sanctioned enslavement of human beings and, because that enslavement was race-based, racism. For others, it represents honorable ancestors who fought for “tons of things” (I’m not exactly sure what things), but absolutely not racism. Let’s accept that it can stand for more than one thing, just as, for many, the swastika was an expression of German nationalism, the murder of six million Jews not withstanding. In fact, those non-racist Confederates and their counterparts in the Wermacht were truly the ultimate patriots, putting their personal revulsion toward slavery and Jew-muder aside to fight for the greater good. With a little understanding, we can all get past the slavery, racial brutalization and genocide and allow the good southerners to honor their heritage in peace.

for him it wasn’t about slavery.  He was a dirt poor farmer and didn’t own any slaves.  He like many fought for the ton of other reasons, not slavery.

Now this is just silly.

Firstly, how the fuck can you possibly hope to know why your great great great grandfather did what he did, 180-odd years ago?  What, did he tell you?

Secondly, I would imagine that the great numbers of poor white Confederate soldiers fought in the Civil War for a wide variety of personal reasons, which there’s no reason to think had anything to do with the specific reasons said war was waged by the Confederate leaders.  Why a particular soldier chooses to go to war has no bearing on why the leaders of the country choose to start it. 

I’m pretty sure my grandfather didn’t go to Korea because he personally hated Communism, I can tell you that.  Though obviously the reason we fought in Korea was not to get him off the farm and into college (the most likely reason he joined up), but because of the cold war and the US’s desire to “stem the tide” of Communism.

Except for my midwestern grandfather and German great-grandfather, I am Celtic Southern to the core. Well, there may have been that Chocktaw kid raised by his white stepmom, and that mercernary from Basel who was Washington’s bodyguard. Washington picked Tomas Burkhardt because he couldn’t speak English. They both shared French as a second language. Burkhardt couldn’t reveal that many secrets if he was captured as he couldn’t understand what he overheard.

The American Civil war was a disaster. I had kin on both sides, and some of those kin left Alabama and Texas to fight for the Union. There is little honor in confederate symbols.

It was assholes like Helms who fostered all the racial resentments that persist to this day. Without idiots like Helms the whole civil rights era could have been finished up much more quickly after the fashion of Houston’s “Strange Demise” plan

If there are people who truly believe that the confederate battle flag is only viewed as a symbol of racism because of the way racist morons use it, then I’ve got a suggestion for them: take it back. Protest against racism. Support affirmative action. Work for diversity. Stop legislatures from passing laws that disenfranchise black voters. Stop prosecutors and police departments from arresting and jailing black people at disproportionate rates. When you do all these things, discreetly append the stars and bars. Maybe 20 years from now, when your efforts have made racist morons an irrelevant sidelight, you will be able to display your symbol proudly.

Don’t want to do any of those things? STFU.